WEBVTT

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Good morning. Today is Monday April 11, 2011. And we are conducting an

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interview for the Arizona State
University retirees association

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association video history project.
We're located today at the Engineering

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Deans conference room at the brickyard
in downtown Tempe. My name is

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konrad store Odd. I'm the retired
editor of A. S. U. Research magazine and

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former director of the office of
research publications at Arizona State

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University. The technical support
staff today includes john mccomb ish on

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operating the camera, roger carter,
audio and dave shots. Lee is the

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director. Also in attendance is linda
Vance Coy, chair of the S. U. R. A

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video history project.

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Please introduce yourself and starting
with your name and your position at

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A S. U. And let our viewers know a
little bit about your early life. Okay

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, Conrad, it's robert Barnhill and
Arizona State University. I was the

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chairman of Computer science and then
the vice president for research and

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strategic initiatives and some other
things. Uh I grew up in the shadow of

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the University of Kansas. Lawrence
Kansas and my parents spent their

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entire careers there seven years
between the two of them at the university

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of Kansas. When I was 12 I decided I
should get a PhD in mathematics and

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when I was 24 I did at the University
of Kansas And then I was a full

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professor at 31. That part was easy,
that was simple. Back in Lawrence

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Kansas, I was the first National Merit
scholar from Lawrence high school.

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And then I was, well the University of
Kansas graduated with highest

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honors mathematics major sociology
minor. Well before Arizona State

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University, the University of Utah,
that's where I went after my PhD at

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Wisconsin in 1964 I was supposed to
start numerical analysis. So we did,

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my PhD was in numerical analysis,
which was a certain kind of applied

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mathematics

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and this is, But in the Mathematics
Department, 1964, this is before there

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there were computer science
departments. So although I knew a lot about

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computers, then it had to be in that
on that subject. Even Wisconsin,

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which is pretty advanced, didn't have
a computer science degree until a

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couple years after I left PhD.

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And in the 1970s, computer graphics
started at the University of Utah and

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my team was the mathematical part of
that fairly famous group that got

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computer graphics started. Now we take
it so graphic so much for granted

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now that it's hard to imagine this,
But the graphics available at the time

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in the early 70s there we're storage
tubes, you get a picture and then Big

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Flash and then you get another
picture. So it was like frames except that

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you definitely saw the frames and so
you couldn't have emotion or anything

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like that. And so what happens in
Sutherland David Evans and Ivan

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Sutherland Utah did, was, was to get
interactive computer graphics, which

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is the kind we're used to now. Ah But
anyway, they, they did mostly well

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applications that were in caD cam and
they were really mathematically

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trivial like circles and cones and
shapes and stuff like that. They didn't

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do anything of any mathematical
interest beyond the Greeks about the time

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of christ. So that was a little far
behind.

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And and it turned out that uh with
always emphasize surfaces, not curves,

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curves are too easy surfaces and
volumes and things like that. Those are

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much harder mathematically. And so we
my team would develop equations that

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would interpolate values and then
create a virtual surface. And from that

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you could then interpret and tell
other things. So you never have complete

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information. So if you try to map the
brain for instance, you'll have some

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data points and you have to interpret
to get any information anywhere else.

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And you and you want to be able to do
that. The measurements may be

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expensive in oil drilling for
instance, the measurements are very

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expensive Because each one is a drill.
And so you have to have methods for

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mapping the surface of the oil. You
know from a few data points that takes

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high powered mathematics. And it was
just the kind of thing that we were

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developing anyway. So this is an
example where technology created some

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science because with this new
technology then we slanted what we had been

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doing to match up with this new stuff
so we could use equipment. One of

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the most interesting projects we did.
Uh And this was here was a social

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science project where there's
psychotics,

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psychological tests of California
inmates in prisons. And they wanted to

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predict whether they were going to be
real violent when they got out or

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not based on psychology tests to be
that spicy. But anyway, that was the

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question we were given this had
multiple dimensions. So how do you

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visualize the six or seven dimensional
surface? Given a few data points?

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How do you create a surface? And how
do you visualize it to get any

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information out? Because data is not
information. How do I take these data

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that they have the tests and then
create surfaces that will be able to

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predict how they behave in other
situations. Very tough stuff. That stuff

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today. So

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as a as a little kid, I like comic
books and I as a big guy finally

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decided actually I thought the stories
are trash but but I like the

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pictures and so that was all the
graphics that were for little kids at the

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time I grew up, I didn't realize that
at the time, of course. But looking

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back, I've always wanted to merge
geometry and algebra. There's really

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only two parts of mathematics,
geometry and algebra in the algebra of the

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things you can program on a computer
formulas and stuff like that. Our

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pictures, which can be virtual
pictures, but still, you know higher

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dimensions. So I've always, I've
always thought balance in my life and as

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many things as I could. And I did
mathematics to and that isn't the way

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mathematics has ever taught. It's
always just algebraic. Unless you're

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real lucky. We started the subject
called computer aided geometric design

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and the journal and that is still
published. That's this month, in fact,

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Some 30 years later.

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So Kansas to Utah Wisconsin. And
finally you get to the sonoran desert. So

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when did you arrive at issue? And how
many years were you here? Well, I

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was at Utah 22 years and then came to
from the high desert to the low

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desert Conrad. And I knew about
Arizona state a lot because we were in the

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back together and it was, it was a
place to lose football games as far as

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the University of Utah went at that
time. Ah And also there was one of my

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PhD graduates, Greg Nielson, I was in
the Mathematics Department and he

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had a lot to do with our eventually
coming here, which was in 1986. So

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America and I came here in 1986

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in my case to be chairman of the
computer science department. In her case

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to work in the education college on
doing things with american indians.

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 We'll get back to earlier too.

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Tell us a little bit about what the
issue was like when you first got here.

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Well, when we first got here, Tempe is
a town was sort of sleepy and a

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issue itself was an awakening giant.
Now Wisconsin was a giant too and it

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was a week so I was, I used to both
large universities but also mature

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universities and here at Arizona State
University. The thing that I like

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best about it was the chance to do
different things. Anyway, officially I

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came as chair of computer science.
Roland Hayden was the dean who hired me

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and it was one of my implicit mentors
I would say. And there are a lot of

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other stories about engineering we may
get back to that, tell us about a

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little bit about the administrative
structure at that time. So Bill Lewis

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was chair when you got here, who was
dean and provost and who was

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president of issue at that time. Good
questions. So the dean was Roland

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Hayden who brought me in and he was,
he operated at a high level

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engineering excellence had gotten
going at the time and and so on. The

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provost was Jack Kinzinger and
marigold in particular through his office,

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got her appointment in the College of
Education. Russ nelson was the

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president and as a chair, you didn't
actually get to interact with the top

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administration so much, which is true
everywhere, but that's who the folks

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were and I got to know him a little
bit also, I served on Henry Reeves,

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faculty advisory committee, Henry
Reeves of course argue. Conrad was the

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first vice president for research at
Arizona State University. Alright

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switch gears a little bit here, going
just to Geography on campus. Tell us

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some of the places you were located
during your time here on campus. You

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had lots of different offices. But
where were you at? That's a good

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question. So in the original
engineering buildings first and forgotten

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which letter building. But anyway, one
of them over there, that's still

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there and I helped get the Goldwater
Science Engineering building on the

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campus and failed to get an hour in
that because by that time I'd gone to

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the research office and at that time
as linda knows, we were in the

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administration building. I think that
was its official name anyway, still

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there and still has things going on.
Well, tell us a little, give us a

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little more detail about how your
career here progressed. What do you

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remember most about your career here
at issue? I mean you did a lot of

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different things. Give us a little
timeline. Sure. Well the first part was

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the computer science side. And then
after five years uh milk click arrived

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on the scene as the provost and that's
how I also got to be linda

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Vansickle and other folks as well. But
the slickster as Alan Price called

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him was was really a terrific mentor,
although he would deny being a

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mentor to anybody. But there was a
whole group of us about 20 at one of

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the nostalgic meetings. The National
Association of State Universities and

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Land grant colleges. They got together
informally. We'd all been mentioned

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by Glick and gotten into higher
administration. So as the second vice

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president for research, there were
lots of opportunities. Um, there were

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some terrific inheritances like Conrad
and and the research magazine and

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we'll get him to talk more about
aspects of that in a little bit. And then

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there were some things that needed
some some help, such as getting a

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faculty oriented set of folks in
certain key offices. We also set up our

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distance site scheme where we put our
people out with the faculty where

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they were in the, in the different
colleges. And uh, also dropped the

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first strategic plan for research at
Arizona State University. Now that's

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important because that's a systemic
approach to research. One of things I

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should mention in this connection is
working with the library.

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That was Sherry. Schmidt was the dean
and we went to the library and we

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said, what books do you get? What
feels that is? Do you get books in? Mm

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hmm. That took a while. But then also
in terms of external grants and

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other measures? Different measures for
the fine arts for instance? Um,

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what are we also good at? And then how
do you match these two things

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together? How do you match the books
and journals that you get? What are

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we really good at? And that was a
continuing dialogue all the time. I was

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in the research office, but it helped
a systemic approach to what were we

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really good at and what can we make a
name for ourselves as a university.

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The computer science department was fairly new when you got here, what,

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what was it like? Good question. It
had just been in existence for five

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years. And one of my best friends here
became one of my best friends. Bill

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Lewis had been the initial chair. So I
was the second chair of computer

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science. And at the time, I see that
was the early 80s computer science

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was a fetish thing. So it had
basically an infinite number of people

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wanting to study it. And so it had a
service role that department did,

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which was very large. Now Bill went up
to the dean's office as associate

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dean for computing. And I came and
what I did was try to make that

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department become much more scholarly
the first five years they had just

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services students. But then we kept
that up. Uh, and one of my proudest

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proudest things in that department as
chair is that we quadrupled our

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scholarly output in the five years
that I was chair. So that's not so bad.

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And we also hired three female faculty
And that was the first and in fact

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it stayed at 1st for quite a while. I
don't know if they ever did to her

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anymore many years later. So those
were big things and then we continued

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to meet the service obligations of the
department, which were quite large.

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But now it's time to give us a little
more detail about your department

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as in computer science. And even as VP
some of the really special

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outstanding accomplishments that
happen. And if you talked about a few of

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them, you can, you can emphasize a
little more if you'd like on those

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accomplishments maybe starting
computer science things you're most proud

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of in computer science. Roland Hayden
had done his homework about me and

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so he knew about our research group
and we brought most of it here from

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the University of Utah. And so what he
originally told me there was, this

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was good advice lead by example. You
yourself and your group, you know our

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track record, just keep doing that And
that will start us off because

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there weren't very many grants, there
was some scholarly publication, but

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it was all sort of in a state of
startup state because the department was

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only five years old when I took it
over. And as I say, they were drowning

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in the number of students that wanted
to take computer science, which is a

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good thing. But drowning is not so
really established journals get out

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there and give talks and also
integrate with the community. That's very

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important and in engineering at every
university that's important. But I

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learned to speak engineering as well
as science when I came to Arizona

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State University. Little story about
that Conrad At the University of Utah

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had about 20 phds and a similar number
of Masters finished there of my own.

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And the last one is from computer
graphics. When I started, that was the

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second half of them all went into
industry after they got their phds. Okay

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, so they'd come back and I'd say,
okay, you're an industry, you have a

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card, let's see it out. It comes some
adjective engineer, Okay, But

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they're always engineer. The noun was
always engineer. Ah this is

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mathematics phds and here they come.
So one of the reasons that I was

00:15:34.210 --> 00:15:39.976
attracted to to come to A. S. U. Was
to be in computer science department

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and in engineering because if you're
defined by your product, my product

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had become engineering apparently. So
I like that way of looking at it.

00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:54.236
Another topic is the electronics
industry in Arizona and the history of

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it, it looks like a lot of the
companies that are here now, maybe they got

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their interest in Arizona because of
what was going on engineering a wing

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and the wing. And

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when you were in there, what was your
relationship with Intel Honeywell

00:16:14.059 --> 00:16:17.557
was Company. One of the things I was
told when I took the job was that you

00:16:17.590 --> 00:16:21.957
will form an industrial liaison
committee which the computer science

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department hadn't had up to that
point. So I did and they had

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representatives from each of those on
it at the right management level to

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interact with with the department and
Roland Hayden was really good about

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that stuff. Engineering excellence. He
understood how to work with those

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people in an optimal way better than I
guess maybe anybody I've met.

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Although when I was in the U. T.
System, the A. And M. System which is

00:16:46.820 --> 00:16:52.407
where rolling it ended up. It was also
pretty good at this.

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I am I think that takes a special
person or at least a person with a

00:16:57.259 --> 00:16:59.496
special interest. Yeah, it takes a
special, you have to have the right

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background to do that And everybody,
every university says they want to do

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that. But maybe 5% do it well. But
Hayden was maybe the best I've ever

00:17:09.900 --> 00:17:13.836
seen it at that. That was one of the
things that I tried to learn from him.

00:17:13.869 --> 00:17:18.226
Lots of interesting things happened in
engineering. Well, I was here.

00:17:18.259 --> 00:17:22.117
Roland Hayden went off to do something
at West and then left the

00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:26.897
university and went to some other
places. So George bickley comes in. All

00:17:26.930 --> 00:17:30.697
right, George meekly. He had been
Roland Hayden is not to put too fine

00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:38.730
line on it. Hit man has Associate
Dean. And so that is deep and George. He

00:17:38.869 --> 00:17:44.917
wasn't really a lovable guy, but I
liked him. And so George 12:01 a.m. The

00:17:44.950 --> 00:17:48.976
day he became Dean fired for the six
chairs in the College of Engineering.

00:17:49.009 --> 00:17:54.217
Look it up. So that was I thought that
was pretty interesting. That was a

00:17:54.250 --> 00:17:59.707
year or two after I got here and I was
one of the two out of six I guess.

00:17:59.740 --> 00:18:03.627
So, you know, nothing about George I
really liked was he would give one

00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:08.256
word descriptions of people,
engineering can be carried to that extreme.

00:18:08.289 --> 00:18:12.816
And so he would have one word to
describe his various chairs and

00:18:12.849 --> 00:18:17.326
unfortunately don't remember any of
them except my own uh, what do you

00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:21.336
call me? Really interested me Conrad,
you've known me a long time. The one

00:18:21.369 --> 00:18:29.369
word description was steely. That
wasn't marbles either. This uh, so I

00:18:30.109 --> 00:18:32.887
never quite knew what to make of that,
but maybe he knew that I'd like to

00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:37.086
play soccer and, you know, soccer
players and don't get bumped off the

00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:43.736
ball too much without reaching back.
So steely. Yeah, I wouldn't either.

00:18:43.769 --> 00:18:47.036
But that was, but part of it is what
does your boss think you are? So

00:18:47.069 --> 00:18:53.006
that's what he thought. Well, not so
bad basically to me was sort of the

00:18:53.039 --> 00:19:00.447
mm prototypical engineer really got
down to it and so on and with all the

00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:06.536
strength and a few weaknesses that
that has but primarily strengths and he

00:19:06.569 --> 00:19:10.326
wasn't a guy that you could like or
dislike in my case. I mean, that just

00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:15.677
didn't occur to me. But uh with
George, I mean, he always made sure you

00:19:15.710 --> 00:19:19.147
knew he was the boss. That's one of
the downsides of some engineers. They

00:19:19.180 --> 00:19:27.180
have and in case you've forgotten. So
uh huh I don't know about that. But

00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:33.427
you knew where you were. Yeah,

00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:38.607
Think about firing four people at
12:01 AM. I didn't think much of that.

00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:42.847
What were some of those other one word
terms? Well, I really don't

00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:49.516
remember. But they weren't good. That
was the trouble. You had a chance to

00:19:49.549 --> 00:19:54.627
do lots of different things. But of
course it's not always smooth sailing

00:19:54.660 --> 00:19:58.786
to get these things done. Can you talk
a little bit about some of the

00:19:58.819 --> 00:20:03.556
challenges that you encountered during
your career, both as a faculty

00:20:03.589 --> 00:20:08.217
member, maybe an administrator?
Financial however you wanna couch that.

00:20:08.250 --> 00:20:12.246
But what what were some of the
challenges you had to overcome to reach?

00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:15.086
Some of the achievements that you've
done here at the university? One of

00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.286
the things that I didn't realize as a
faculty member at Utah, but I did

00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:22.276
find out when I got into
administration is that the little green man

00:20:22.309 --> 00:20:27.736
jealousy can come out and can lead to
lead to surprising results and

00:20:27.769 --> 00:20:32.806
usually not good ones. And so

00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:36.996
For instance as chair, I got death
threats from back to the member that

00:20:37.029 --> 00:20:43.836
didn't get 10 years. Uh huh. And then
also that's a challenge. That was a

00:20:43.869 --> 00:20:49.786
challenge. And we kept an eye. Uh, and
then anonymous letters started when

00:20:49.819 --> 00:20:54.427
I was here as chair and they're
anonymous to the people that got them, but

00:20:54.460 --> 00:20:58.147
not to be of course. And so we're
always financial challenges. There's,

00:20:58.180 --> 00:21:00.806
there's a great quote I liked when I
was chair of Computer science. We had

00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:04.736
to close a couple of sections because
we had that unexpected thing of a

00:21:04.769 --> 00:21:09.437
midyear budget cut. I think they
happen every year now. And so we had to

00:21:09.470 --> 00:21:15.776
close some some popular section and
everyone is unhappy. And so being a

00:21:15.809 --> 00:21:21.026
young guy, I just said, well, you
know, we can't print the money and the

00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:26.326
state press thought that was enough to
put it there so that I got hit with

00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:34.359
that a few times. But it was a true
fact. So there we go

00:21:35.940 --> 00:21:41.187
during your tenure as VP for research
as she became a research one

00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:45.097
university, maybe you can tell us a
little bit about the significance of

00:21:45.130 --> 00:21:50.796
that achievement. Yeah, that's that's
excellent. That was I think 1994 and

00:21:50.829 --> 00:21:54.316
that was the biggest single marker
during the time that I was in the

00:21:54.349 --> 00:21:57.286
research office would be the biggest
marker in time anybody was in a

00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:01.996
research office. Because research one
means it's a Carnegie foundation

00:22:02.029 --> 00:22:06.647
classification. They've changed the
names but that's what it was then. And

00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.857
it means that you have arrived at the
the top tier in terms of research

00:22:10.890 --> 00:22:15.967
universities and it's based on
research expenditures and variety of other

00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:24.000
things. Number of phds graduated but a
S. U. Was was sort of as I say, a a

00:22:24.980 --> 00:22:29.316
giant in the making, just ready to be
unfolded. And so we were really

00:22:29.349 --> 00:22:34.026
pleased to get that designation and
the external funding did more than

00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:38.597
double in the six years that I was in
the research office as we helped

00:22:38.630 --> 00:22:42.806
faculty go for much bigger things than
they had done before. That is we

00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.167
continue to support all the things
that went on before, but it helped him

00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:49.367
get bigger grants as well. It wasn't
all grants. Richard Lovelace at the

00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:52.637
Institute for Studies in the Arts was
one of the key folks that we worked

00:22:52.670 --> 00:22:56.556
with and other folks as well. Can you
tell us a little bit about some of

00:22:56.589 --> 00:23:00.617
the special people? You remember that
were part of this? That's pretty

00:23:00.650 --> 00:23:05.627
significant. Pretty quick. Rise to
research one status from 1986 being

00:23:05.660 --> 00:23:09.536
determined to be a research university
and then 90 forgetting that status.

00:23:09.569 --> 00:23:12.266
So there's a lot of people involved,
Maybe you can tell us a little about

00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:15.796
it, some of the people that you
remember as being really a significant in

00:23:15.829 --> 00:23:20.197
the whole process. Yeah, there's,
there's a whole a little set of folks

00:23:20.230 --> 00:23:26.607
there, but Milt Glick was very
important in this and so was the President

00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:32.276
Larry core. President Core. So he came
in 1990, I think it was

00:23:32.309 --> 00:23:36.766
approximately. And uh, and he worked
with the Carnegie Foundation on some

00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:43.046
of that. But several things happened.
Well, one of the things before I go

00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:48.707
to the people themselves is another
prop. Um, Arizona State University and

00:23:48.740 --> 00:23:52.407
indiana University were invited to a
meeting from which this book,

00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:58.387
competitiveness and academic research
or the triple A. S came out? And

00:23:58.420 --> 00:24:02.447
this was a meeting of Eps core state
folks score means States that don't

00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:08.457
get as much federal funding as as the
as the norm is. But the two of us

00:24:08.490 --> 00:24:11.687
George walker from indiana University
and myself were invited to talk

00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:15.707
about how our universities have made
big steps forward in research

00:24:15.740 --> 00:24:20.006
research productivity. So the F score
states could learn from that. And

00:24:20.039 --> 00:24:25.697
Tripoli has formed a group to which I
still interact today 20 years later.

00:24:25.730 --> 00:24:30.836
And so the thing was, how do you put
together a big, big groups, big

00:24:30.869 --> 00:24:35.107
joint efforts. We hired Jim Mayor on
the basis of that kind of thing. Dave

00:24:35.140 --> 00:24:40.677
Ferry was one of the key people early
on. Let's see, lots of other folks.

00:24:40.710 --> 00:24:45.197
Ben Forsyth was important. Later.
Coors right hand person that came with

00:24:45.230 --> 00:24:49.407
him from Vermont on the brain mapping
project that I was involved in

00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.506
intrinsically

00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:56.127
Peter Crouch, Gary Crayon Bill, Lots
of other folks. So it was a massive

00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:59.996
effort. And of course a s You had had
research going on for a long time. A

00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:04.326
mistake is to think that things start
with yourself. We already had

00:25:04.359 --> 00:25:09.556
research going on. But what we didn't
have was a systemic look at it. A

00:25:09.589 --> 00:25:14.546
strategic plan. After a couple of
years we did. Well, here's a tough

00:25:14.579 --> 00:25:18.086
question because I get this one all
the time as an author and the kids

00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.506
will ask me. Conrad what's what's your
favorite book you've ever written?

00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:24.467
So that's the hardest question you can
never ask an author. Well you've

00:25:24.500 --> 00:25:28.617
done a lot of things in your career,
not only here at issue but other

00:25:28.650 --> 00:25:32.967
places. Is there one accomplishment
here at the issue that has given you

00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.707
the most satisfaction?

00:25:35.740 --> 00:25:41.467
One accomplishment at A. S. U. I
suppose though really getting a. S. U.

00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:47.236
Research on the national map because
across the institution it wasn't

00:25:47.269 --> 00:25:52.256
there uh certain folks like solid
state science and software engineering

00:25:52.289 --> 00:25:56.697
they were but not as a whole
institution and for university of its size

00:25:56.730 --> 00:26:02.097
and promise uh there was a mistake for
it not to be there. And so it

00:26:02.130 --> 00:26:06.667
really needed a systemic look that is
it needed a strategic plan and then

00:26:06.700 --> 00:26:11.816
follow up the strategic plan and it
hadn't had that before. So I think I

00:26:11.849 --> 00:26:16.236
was proudest of that. And again the
manifestation is the easy thing is the

00:26:16.269 --> 00:26:20.937
research one status. Mhm. But that's
also like talking about grants as

00:26:20.970 --> 00:26:24.107
being the end result of things which
they aren't, it's the intellectual

00:26:24.140 --> 00:26:29.336
capital that is the end result not not
just money and things like that. So

00:26:29.369 --> 00:26:32.697
I think that was the most important
thing. And in the research off the

00:26:32.730 --> 00:26:36.536
biggest thing there was there was a
tech transfer that happened both here

00:26:36.569 --> 00:26:39.796
and at the U. Of a. Although they
weren't related. I somehow feel like

00:26:39.829 --> 00:26:46.407
that was in the ether to at the time.
And tech transfer is a tricky item

00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:50.236
and it's a bad name to for the
activity. What you want to do is

00:26:50.269 --> 00:26:54.427
collaborate with the society and the
industrial part of society is an

00:26:54.460 --> 00:26:59.476
important part and then how to do that
smoothly and what I inherited. And

00:26:59.509 --> 00:27:03.897
also mike kosanovic, my counterparts,
they were messes on that front

00:27:03.930 --> 00:27:09.986
frankly. So what happened was that he
and I and steve Zylstra representing

00:27:10.019 --> 00:27:14.647
industry got together, the three of us
with a lot of support but the three

00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:18.816
of us had to carry the ball and
changed the intellectual property

00:27:18.849 --> 00:27:24.506
templates for the university and how
to get after things make up someone

00:27:24.539 --> 00:27:28.806
kind of agreement for most cases. And
yes you might have meant Gatorade

00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:32.367
but make that the exception and not
the dominant thing. Most university

00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:35.256
haven't figured this out yet. They
still think every contract should be

00:27:35.289 --> 00:27:39.097
written as if it's going to be a
Gatorade but it isn't. And so you write

00:27:39.130 --> 00:27:42.756
them so that if that happens you go in
a different realm but otherwise you

00:27:42.789 --> 00:27:47.407
don't let it mess up ordinary
business. So that was a statewide effort

00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:51.986
that I was pretty proud of. Conrad
with kosanovic who he came from the

00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:55.157
biomedical side. I came from the I. T.
Side. Those are the two great

00:27:55.190 --> 00:27:58.617
subjects of intellectual property in
our generation. So between as we

00:27:58.650 --> 00:28:02.667
covered the state and steve's astra in
the middle and steve became a good

00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:06.086
friend from that we were ordered to do
that by the regions. And this

00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:09.566
reminded me of the bear rabbit story
because that's uh, because of the

00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:13.167
kerfuffle we had, that was a briar
patch I wanted to land in, which would

00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:18.816
have been hard to push on myself or
for kosanovic either ah Mike was

00:28:18.849 --> 00:28:23.167
pretty irascible, but I liked it. And
we did a lot of things together. We

00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.937
would meet it, see what's the town
between here and Tucson? We'd meet

00:28:26.970 --> 00:28:32.427
there anyway. Yeah, casa grande. So it
was a neutral site. I thought that

00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:35.427
was hilarious. But

00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:39.137
anyway, frequently the engineers were
our cat paws because they always

00:28:39.170 --> 00:28:43.417
wanted to work together anyway because
engineers do. And so okay, we'd go

00:28:43.450 --> 00:28:46.417
meet together and things would happen.
But this, this i p thing, The

00:28:46.450 --> 00:28:50.766
electoral property thing was was
really important and that would prevent

00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:54.417
future disturbances of the kind of, we
each suffered at about the same

00:28:54.450 --> 00:28:57.637
time.

00:28:57.670 --> 00:29:00.736
Yeah. And it's not very much money in
the scheme of things, but it looks

00:29:00.769 --> 00:29:05.476
like a lot now, Conrad knows me. So he
knows that well, what he didn't

00:29:05.509 --> 00:29:09.506
know is that I inherited an office
that was in the red ink at the time.

00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:13.647
But what he does know is that I'm
pretty careful and so we actually have

00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:16.996
the money to cover that kerfuffle all
by ourselves. We don't have to go to

00:29:17.029 --> 00:29:21.336
the regions are somewhere. And also my
successor got two or 3 million that

00:29:21.369 --> 00:29:27.056
, that we had stacked up, John Fink.
So we we put that on a on a reel

00:29:27.089 --> 00:29:30.937
reasonable basis so that we weren't
subject to these winds of change. One

00:29:30.970 --> 00:29:37.207
of the problems, this always sounds
simpler than it is. Um The industry is

00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.177
quick and so you either protect the
property today or forget it because

00:29:41.210 --> 00:29:44.847
tomorrow somebody else will have it.
Anyway, biomedical, the opposite

00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:49.907
glacial decades drugs just think of
how long it takes to get a drug out.

00:29:49.940 --> 00:29:55.137
And that's the forte. So there were
real reasons why the two universities

00:29:55.170 --> 00:29:59.296
had a different view of this because
of their the focus of their expertise.

00:29:59.329 --> 00:30:03.276
And I know each had some of the other
but but in large that's the case

00:30:03.309 --> 00:30:08.647
and those are the two major areas of
industry university collaboration. If

00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:12.887
you look at it carefully across the
country almost nobody does this very

00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:18.927
well I should say. And so S. U. Tries
hard and with Hayden that he was

00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:23.586
really good at it and Crow knows how
to do this and I haven't kept up with

00:30:23.619 --> 00:30:27.286
that part of the issue to know whether
the people he's appointed have been

00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:31.246
good at that or not. But they probably
are Sky Song near where I live.

00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:35.647
Looks like it's doing pretty well. The
the thing about tech transfer,

00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:40.546
what's going on a little secret here.
Ah Marigold the psychologist went

00:30:40.579 --> 00:30:44.306
with me to a meeting once where they
talked about tech transfer and the

00:30:44.339 --> 00:30:50.707
guy was whoever this was. I'm, I'm
glad to say. I don't remember. He said

00:30:50.740 --> 00:30:55.006
We're doing great. We've hired 20
people.

00:30:55.039 --> 00:31:00.746
Merkel says, so what okay,

00:31:00.779 --> 00:31:07.157
You've spent a lot and plan to do so
for the foreseeable future. And so

00:31:07.190 --> 00:31:10.766
you have to really look at net. That's
what I'm getting at here in tech

00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:17.286
transfer. Net, gross is great. But if
you spend a million to get half a

00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:21.796
million and then you only talk about
the half a million. This is to be

00:31:21.829 --> 00:31:27.097
fraud to tell you the truth to look at
it and that, you know, crow knows

00:31:27.130 --> 00:31:31.756
this, but I don't know who he is
appointed for this. Thanks. We had the

00:31:31.789 --> 00:31:35.226
Alpacas cancer. It was, it was a good
guy. And we changed the name of that

00:31:35.259 --> 00:31:40.506
to tech transfer sounds like a linear
process, which certainly is not

00:31:40.539 --> 00:31:45.306
wanting to get into it all is that I
consulted with Utah, especially with

00:31:45.339 --> 00:31:48.816
Lockheed California for a quarter of a
century and others. So my people

00:31:48.849 --> 00:31:54.736
went to industry for a reason. But we
called it with Parks Canada. We

00:31:54.769 --> 00:31:58.607
changed the name to technology
collaborations

00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:03.697
because it's all got a lot of feedback
loops. You don't just do something

00:32:03.730 --> 00:32:07.717
in this building and put on a shelf
and then intel wants it. That's

00:32:07.750 --> 00:32:11.746
ancient thinking. Even Vannevar Bush
has started all this, didn't do that

00:32:11.779 --> 00:32:17.276
in the 1940s. You know better than
that when he found at Raytheon it is a

00:32:17.309 --> 00:32:21.236
complex interwoven process where
university of people have to work with

00:32:21.269 --> 00:32:26.197
the industry people. And I did that
first hand and second hand as a

00:32:26.230 --> 00:32:29.887
faculty member and then later on. So
it's a lot more complicated. It isn't

00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.786
a linear process that I could just do
something in a box and toss it over

00:32:33.819 --> 00:32:39.276
the wall. That doesn't work. We're
public universities all but one year in

00:32:39.309 --> 00:32:43.306
my whole career which is a long one
now have been at public universities.

00:32:43.339 --> 00:32:48.347
All right that means something that
means that we are responsible in some

00:32:48.380 --> 00:32:54.927
way or another to the public. So you
were one of my great inheritances.

00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:59.256
Although I'm proud to say that we've
been advanced a lot that you lead.

00:32:59.289 --> 00:33:02.556
So why don't you talk something about
that? The tv the all the rest of

00:33:02.589 --> 00:33:09.457
that the issue investigates this all
goes to your leadership and letting

00:33:09.490 --> 00:33:14.006
people use the talents they have and
providing um

00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:16.776
the amount of support that's needed to
get some things done because of

00:33:16.809 --> 00:33:21.207
course you need some resources to do
certain items. We didn't have a lot

00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:26.276
of resources but we made the most of
what we had under bob Barton Hill's

00:33:26.309 --> 00:33:32.076
tenure as vice president for research
at A. S. U. We really became known

00:33:32.109 --> 00:33:36.647
across the United States as having one
of the best university

00:33:36.680 --> 00:33:41.937
communication university research
communication programs. We were the envy

00:33:41.970 --> 00:33:47.707
of universities across the country and
that we put the word out of what

00:33:47.740 --> 00:33:52.867
research was going on at A. S. U.
Imprint through a. S. U. Research

00:33:52.900 --> 00:33:57.117
magazine which became recognized and
was copied by lots of places. But we

00:33:57.150 --> 00:34:01.236
were one of the very first
universities to take it to television. It

00:34:01.269 --> 00:34:06.697
helped to have television station on
Campus K. 80 but that had to be

00:34:06.730 --> 00:34:11.307
funded. And so we had a S. U. Research
review which aired three times a

00:34:11.340 --> 00:34:16.477
year. So it was a television version
of our magazine. We also were one of

00:34:16.510 --> 00:34:21.276
the very first websites at the
university as the internet was really

00:34:21.309 --> 00:34:25.686
starting to take off. So we were
communicating with the general public

00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:32.006
through print through television
through the internet And I think

00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:36.227
what I'm most proud of and I know you
helped get started was our special

00:34:36.260 --> 00:34:41.106
magazine for kids. We were the only
university in the United States, the

00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:45.467
United States to do a science magazine
for Children called chain reaction.

00:34:45.500 --> 00:34:49.227
And you were the one that helped get
that started because we had done the

00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:53.177
whole university committee thing and
we met with faculty and we wanted

00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:56.887
their input. People basically told us
it was the dumbest idea I've ever

00:34:56.920 --> 00:35:00.166
heard of. Why would you want to write
for kids about science from the

00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:05.307
university? It's not your job. And I
really believed in this magazine and

00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:09.546
bob Barnhill. I said let us do one. I
don't know if you remember that

00:35:09.579 --> 00:35:14.427
conversation. We were going to do one
and we ended up having 50,000

00:35:14.460 --> 00:35:18.947
readers in all 50 states in 14
countries And the magazine went for about

00:35:18.980 --> 00:35:25.637
12 years. It's it's hasn't been
supported since recently, but that was a

00:35:25.670 --> 00:35:28.727
great achievement. So we had not only
a three pronged approach to

00:35:28.760 --> 00:35:32.497
communicating, but we had four. We we
were doing educational outreach as

00:35:32.530 --> 00:35:38.307
well and that was all because you gave
us the thumbs up to give it a try.

00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:43.066
Yeah, well a lot of people have ideas
but they never get to be

00:35:43.099 --> 00:35:46.447
implemented, they don't get the chance
to do it. That's what you said

00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:49.956
about this place were allowed to you
have been allowed to do innovative

00:35:49.989 --> 00:35:54.767
things and but that that came right
from you. Yeah, chain reaction now. So

00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:57.637
now you have to have to go way, way
back. So I'm a little kid growing up

00:35:57.670 --> 00:36:03.796
in Kansas, this is pre tv only
emeritus folks to understand that. Uh so I

00:36:03.829 --> 00:36:07.186
have listened to radio in the summer,
the nearest baseball team, there

00:36:07.219 --> 00:36:12.026
were no other sports broadcast. What
is the ST louis? Cardinals All right

00:36:12.059 --> 00:36:16.736
, ST louis Cardinals had the best farm
system in the world. Now, what is

00:36:16.769 --> 00:36:19.896
the farm system? That means you
develop young players and bring them up.

00:36:19.929 --> 00:36:25.747
Okay. Chain reaction. Why do we wait
until people? Uh I mean it's it's a

00:36:25.780 --> 00:36:31.796
good idea to educate growing up
people, but it is a winner to educate

00:36:31.829 --> 00:36:35.537
little people. So when they grow up
it's like learning a foreign language

00:36:35.570 --> 00:36:39.467
, it's a lot easier when little kids.
So the farm system, that's actually

00:36:39.500 --> 00:36:44.396
the analogy that I thought were for
chain reaction is

00:36:44.429 --> 00:36:49.227
we go beyond and we go back to the
source young people. What was your

00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:55.947
connection with the Unabomber? The the
thing is that he was a

00:36:55.980 --> 00:37:00.847
mathematician, pure mathematician,
complex analysis, precise subject that

00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:05.787
he was in and the university of Utah
has the real hot shots in that. And

00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:09.477
he was in the west in the sparsely
populated part of the west. So he would

00:37:09.510 --> 00:37:12.517
have known about them. And I think
he's even been the university of Utah a

00:37:12.550 --> 00:37:16.137
couple of times because there was
connections with Berkeley which is where

00:37:16.170 --> 00:37:19.546
he was an assistant professor. They
talked about him being a genius. But I

00:37:19.579 --> 00:37:23.756
would say that remained to be shown.
But anyway what he didn't like i in

00:37:23.789 --> 00:37:27.526
in thinking about whether I would
mention that here today, I looked him up

00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:31.506
last night on the web and I looked up
the letter he sent to David partner

00:37:31.539 --> 00:37:36.617
was an early computer scientist. And
it and it genius didn't write that

00:37:36.650 --> 00:37:42.956
letter either. And he resented
computer scientists because of the

00:37:42.989 --> 00:37:50.467
technology they brought ah he would
especially resent a mathematician who

00:37:50.500 --> 00:37:54.256
turned computer scientists or somewhat
and you know a lot about the

00:37:54.289 --> 00:37:59.166
university of Utah and and the C. A.
G. D. That we started there was was a

00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:03.677
cross disciplinary thing. So he would
have heard all about that. And so

00:38:03.710 --> 00:38:08.967
that has to be what the connection is
as as best I can make out. And it

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:13.166
was pretty clear what kind of people
he was interested in and pretty clear

00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:19.436
where he was. You know, generally 1996
or so. I told Sydney I should

00:38:19.469 --> 00:38:22.477
mention Cindy Ryan who was with me
both in computer science and research

00:38:22.510 --> 00:38:26.166
office. I told Cindy to be careful
about the packages that she opened to

00:38:26.199 --> 00:38:30.856
make sure they looked okay one Friday
night and this is a real somber

00:38:30.889 --> 00:38:36.077
thing. One friday night, the FBI calls
me up and says they've just got the

00:38:36.110 --> 00:38:41.947
even bomber and I'm pretty high up on
the list of next things. This has

00:38:41.980 --> 00:38:47.577
not been stated publicly before. But a
few people know about this. So that

00:38:47.610 --> 00:38:51.146
was much more answers than anybody
deserved. And that made things like

00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:54.236
finances really trivial.

00:38:54.269 --> 00:39:02.269
That's just money we can create more
of that.

00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:06.197
Well, you had a chance to touch on a
lot of different achievements at

00:39:06.230 --> 00:39:12.256
different levels in your career and
the department as a VP here at A S. U.

00:39:12.289 --> 00:39:16.697
This is always a tough question. Is
there anything that um, stands out in

00:39:16.730 --> 00:39:20.146
your mind as the most notable
achievement or something you're most proud

00:39:20.179 --> 00:39:26.586
of achieving in the department or as
VP. Anything that's up and above. Um

00:39:26.619 --> 00:39:30.247
, all the other little things,
something that's most notable in your mind.

00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:33.367
There's there's two things I would
give. One that I find the most notable

00:39:33.400 --> 00:39:36.347
and one that other people would find
the most notable do the easy one

00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:41.146
first. The other people part is the
Research One status because that's a

00:39:41.179 --> 00:39:46.177
big deal. You only get there once
hopefully and that lets you go backwards

00:39:46.210 --> 00:39:49.637
and the issue has not done that, they
only get there once. But what I

00:39:49.670 --> 00:39:54.077
liked the most, this was true at the
department level, it's true at the VP

00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:58.546
level, it was true in my life
position. I have to hear when I went to be

00:39:58.579 --> 00:40:01.936
the Vice President, oh, Vice
Chancellor for Research, it was called the

00:40:01.969 --> 00:40:08.097
University of Kansas was that I was
able to form teams of people that

00:40:08.130 --> 00:40:12.686
we're able to do a lot more than they
could do by themselves. That was my

00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:18.387
key thing. So it was as a coach in
that sense, this is a hands on coach

00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:22.756
because nobody wants to work with
somebody else's less, trouble to do it

00:40:22.789 --> 00:40:25.796
yourself. But if there's a competitive
advantage to working with somebody

00:40:25.829 --> 00:40:32.736
else and you can make that a true fact
as my texas friends call it then

00:40:32.769 --> 00:40:35.727
that then you've achieved something.
And so now we're back to my

00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:40.856
undergraduate minor of Sociology, you
see, so you have to, you have to

00:40:40.889 --> 00:40:45.606
have the technical side to put
technical collaborations together, but then

00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:48.947
you have to know something about how
to put together teams, you have to

00:40:48.980 --> 00:40:52.206
know how to spot talent in the first
place And Roland Hayden was really

00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:56.717
good at that. I didn't learn from me,
even though I knew that myself and

00:40:56.750 --> 00:41:00.256
we haven't talked about this personal
side, but one of my big things that

00:41:00.289 --> 00:41:04.236
Utah and Arizona state was youth
soccer and then I also played soccer

00:41:04.269 --> 00:41:10.497
myself. Soccer players have a certain
mentality. They don't arbitrarily

00:41:10.530 --> 00:41:14.276
kick people, but they don't get
knocked off the wall themselves either.

00:41:14.309 --> 00:41:17.046
There's one whole thing about an issue
that I forgot to mention earlier,

00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:21.227
I should throw this in here. It was
kind of, it was when I was the chair

00:41:21.260 --> 00:41:25.876
of Computer Science, but it was
bridging step two when before I became the

00:41:25.909 --> 00:41:30.276
vice president for research and that
was the management development group.

00:41:30.309 --> 00:41:34.236
Ah let's see who were the folks there,
Susan Courtney and Janice read

00:41:34.269 --> 00:41:40.316
were the ones that I actually saw and
they had this Thing for the chairs

00:41:40.349 --> 00:41:42.977
and the chairs would be of the
university, there were about 60 at the time

00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:48.327
, they would have tea and nice stuff.
Uh And then I come along and I say,

00:41:48.360 --> 00:41:52.736
why don't we organize ourselves so
that we can bring in speakers and learn

00:41:52.769 --> 00:41:57.477
more how to be a chair and talk with
each other about our our experiences.

00:41:57.510 --> 00:42:02.727
And so I got kind of the honorific
title of chair of the chairs, which

00:42:02.760 --> 00:42:07.367
sounds like a redundancy. But anyway,

00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:12.146
that was really great. One of my
favorite stories about that is that these

00:42:12.179 --> 00:42:14.577
are early days for the management
development program. They were trying to

00:42:14.610 --> 00:42:19.727
find their way and and then as now
computers didn't always work. And so

00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:23.736
they're trying to set the initial
database and having a hard time and and

00:42:23.769 --> 00:42:29.316
this kind of red nose. I do listen.
And so okay, I'm chairman of the

00:42:29.349 --> 00:42:34.017
computer science department and we
actually know about databases. So we

00:42:34.050 --> 00:42:40.517
took that on for him. Okay. There was
a little discussion in the sort of

00:42:40.550 --> 00:42:44.217
in the corridors about should
directors be in this group? There were 40 of

00:42:44.250 --> 00:42:48.316
them or 60 chairs. You know, there's
always this purity of something going

00:42:48.349 --> 00:42:50.967
on. So

00:42:51.000 --> 00:42:56.077
uh we took over the database and there
were 100 people enrolled. That is

00:42:56.110 --> 00:42:59.456
all the chairs and all the directors.
And there was never a murmur about

00:42:59.489 --> 00:43:04.327
this because there were no rules. And
so I was I was kind of pleased with

00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.807
getting that set up that way. Peter
crouch, followed me in that position

00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:12.677
later on. Do you have that on your
business card, chair of chairs? No,

00:43:12.710 --> 00:43:16.217
that's why that's why I did remember
to put it in right away, but that

00:43:16.250 --> 00:43:18.506
would have made a good one. That's a
good one. Yeah. Because that was

00:43:18.539 --> 00:43:22.077
really important is the sort of thing
that isn't really noticed except by

00:43:22.110 --> 00:43:26.307
the people involved. And then they
modeled using that as a model. They got

00:43:26.340 --> 00:43:31.097
things for associate deans and other
other groups of folks later on. But

00:43:31.130 --> 00:43:35.157
again, this is a place that lets
people do stuff so nobody told me I

00:43:35.190 --> 00:43:39.247
couldn't do that. So we did it and it
has been successful I think ever

00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:44.077
since. Well I was chair so you could
share a lot of stuff. Chair of the

00:43:44.110 --> 00:43:48.956
Council on Research policy and
Graduate Education and that was helpful to

00:43:48.989 --> 00:43:54.456
A. S. U. And it was fun for me. And
again I had a sort of a group that did

00:43:54.489 --> 00:43:59.356
tea parties and I got them too do
things that were relevant. Not today's

00:43:59.389 --> 00:44:04.376
kind of tea party. No no this is a
little lower case tea party you know

00:44:04.409 --> 00:44:09.557
this is something different but folks
that sort of sat around academically

00:44:09.590 --> 00:44:15.126
and which is alright but I like
action. And so we managed to again get

00:44:15.159 --> 00:44:20.197
sort of a strategic plan of Vice
President for research. There's one group

00:44:20.230 --> 00:44:23.376
I worked with ever since I was at A S.
U. Called the Council of Scientific

00:44:23.409 --> 00:44:27.876
Society presidents in Washington, D.
C. And at their invitation I led a

00:44:27.909 --> 00:44:33.026
group of six or 7 vice president for
research to that. And they they still

00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:36.947
celebrate that because that was a lot
of firepower in one place. Alvin

00:44:36.980 --> 00:44:40.197
quorum at the University of Washington
who visited a issue Alvin quorum

00:44:40.230 --> 00:44:45.376
was so impressed because Cindy of
course got it set up so that his visit

00:44:45.409 --> 00:44:49.646
we could beat in the football stadium
some sweet and he said I couldn't do

00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:54.767
this at you were you the vice
president? Vice president and chair of

00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:57.506
charity with the Vice president. Vice
president. It seems to happen. We

00:44:57.539 --> 00:45:01.006
have lots of titles. Well when you're
with people that want to do

00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:05.847
something and nobody has, has had the
gumption to or the vision whichever

00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:11.197
too do it, you know, to give them some
chance to exert leadership and it's

00:45:11.230 --> 00:45:14.637
like like you with your chain
reaction, others people really want to do

00:45:14.670 --> 00:45:17.486
something. But if they haven't quite
had the right tools for the right

00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:20.776
setting and you give it to them, not
only well they're grateful of course

00:45:20.809 --> 00:45:27.526
, but they do a heck of a job. And I
mean like with your magazine, these

00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:31.637
things outstripped, what you yourself
know about, what you know about is

00:45:31.670 --> 00:45:36.546
that you sort of mathematically change
the slope, change the vector in a

00:45:36.579 --> 00:45:44.579
positive way and then they take over
he gets things happen.

00:45:45.789 --> 00:45:50.057
One thing we haven't covered here is
that in 2005

00:45:50.090 --> 00:45:57.247
I came back Arizona state for a wild
with President Michael Crow and Vice

00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:00.546
President of Research, john Fink
wanted me to help them with decision

00:46:00.579 --> 00:46:05.736
theater. Decision theater is a direct
outgrowth of computer aided

00:46:05.769 --> 00:46:09.816
geometric design in the sense that
it's the high level graphics

00:46:09.849 --> 00:46:13.686
implementation of things that we
started and still do. And in between

00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:19.046
there was an organization called
acronym prism partner for research and

00:46:19.079 --> 00:46:24.376
stereo graphic modeling That I formed
with five or 16. Now forming

00:46:24.409 --> 00:46:31.086
anything with five or 16 is not so
bad. And so we were able to, you know,

00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:35.677
I'll leave one out of course, but
Craig and Bill and Engineering, Peter

00:46:35.710 --> 00:46:42.347
Crouch, that would have been john
meunier Fine arts, a couple of others

00:46:42.380 --> 00:46:47.807
don't be insulted. Uh all came
together and the idea was that they would

00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:52.657
put up some faculty time, some cash
depending on what they could do. And

00:46:52.690 --> 00:46:56.586
the research office did the same
thing. We put together this, this major

00:46:56.619 --> 00:47:01.197
collaboration on the campus and then
against the decision theater came out

00:47:01.230 --> 00:47:05.967
of that because uh now President
Michael Crow at that when I was in the

00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:10.097
research office, Milk Glick brought
him in as a consultant. He was the

00:47:10.130 --> 00:47:14.416
vice provost at Columbia University
and he wanted to come in and so I've

00:47:14.449 --> 00:47:20.146
had mentors and have been mentored
many people and they can be younger.

00:47:20.179 --> 00:47:24.447
And Michael Crowe was one of my
mentors at that time because I learned how

00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:28.986
to go for bigger things from Michael
Crowe, as you would guess from his

00:47:29.019 --> 00:47:33.916
own track record, you mentioned that
brain mapping maybe because that was

00:47:33.949 --> 00:47:39.057
a collaboration between the issue and
barrels barrels hospitals and a lot

00:47:39.090 --> 00:47:41.896
of those big collaborations hadn't
happened yet. That was kind of new,

00:47:41.929 --> 00:47:45.847
wasn't it? Yeah, that was a new thing
and that actually went back to my

00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:50.077
computer aided geometric design days
because my research group Conrad

00:47:50.110 --> 00:47:54.427
knows this because he interviewed us
ah what got together with eric

00:47:54.460 --> 00:48:00.977
Raymond at barrels and Brain mapping
was an idea as early as 19, late

00:48:01.010 --> 00:48:05.767
1970s, right after graphics have been
invented. But it gives you a real

00:48:05.800 --> 00:48:10.347
advantage if you can map both the, the
geometry and the functionality of

00:48:10.380 --> 00:48:15.236
the brain and our, our high powered
mathematics coupled with graphics help

00:48:15.269 --> 00:48:20.456
them do that. So the medical folks,
Rheiman for instance had data. But now

00:48:20.489 --> 00:48:26.057
what and so what we did was with
Gerald Faran and others. I was able to

00:48:26.090 --> 00:48:29.166
make that. So you had equations and
formulas for these things and you

00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:33.447
could calculate the stuff I should
mention. Gerald Faron if I didn't as a

00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:37.126
key person in that collaboration,
which still goes on today. I still see

00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:42.227
rhyming in the newspapers today. So
that hasn't gone away. All right. A

00:48:42.260 --> 00:48:46.037
couple other folks I want to mention
Richard. Lovelace uh, partnership

00:48:46.070 --> 00:48:49.686
that continues to this day actually. I
helped bring James Burke from the

00:48:49.719 --> 00:48:54.117
campus, gave a lecture. Famous fellow
from England and Richard just had

00:48:54.150 --> 00:48:57.577
the right idea about things. He
understood the fine arts. He understood

00:48:57.610 --> 00:49:03.236
technology too. But he understood the
fine arts and so, mm hmm, you could

00:49:03.269 --> 00:49:06.867
really do, do nice work with Richard.
Let me talk a little bit about that

00:49:06.900 --> 00:49:13.287
program. That was incredibly unique.
The aim program. Mm hmm engineering.

00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:19.706
Yeah, he, uh, that was unusual. So
what did he do? What part of it was

00:49:19.739 --> 00:49:23.887
that he needed some computer science
expertise in his graduate students in

00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:28.416
fine arts. And so I think what he did
was he traded with Dave Ferry in

00:49:28.449 --> 00:49:32.787
electrical engineering ah and the deal
was that Harry would put up the

00:49:32.820 --> 00:49:36.736
students the money for the students
and then they would in part helped

00:49:36.769 --> 00:49:42.456
ferry with his projects, visualize
things and you know, make them so they

00:49:42.489 --> 00:49:48.736
were beyond engineering standards met
in quality of presentation. But then

00:49:48.769 --> 00:49:51.986
Richard Lovell's then got some of the
time of the students to, to do the

00:49:52.019 --> 00:49:55.597
projects they had, they choreographed
dances and things like that. I went

00:49:55.630 --> 00:49:59.967
to these uh, these various events and
they were and Richard just high

00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:07.920
class guy and still is works in in the
issue of Meritus college and so on.

00:50:11.659 --> 00:50:13.659
Well you've had a chance to be a mentor to a lot of students in your

00:50:16.630 --> 00:50:21.177
career at different universities,
including here at the issue and mentor

00:50:21.210 --> 00:50:25.986
to people like myself and other staff
members and so on. Now is your time

00:50:26.019 --> 00:50:31.787
to be the sage and the wise mentor.
Again, higher education is facing a

00:50:31.820 --> 00:50:35.666
lot of challenges financially. Of
course, it's, it's tough tough time to

00:50:35.699 --> 00:50:40.546
try and go to college for a lot of
young young people. What kind of advice

00:50:40.579 --> 00:50:45.657
would you give young people today in
how to choose the college they want

00:50:45.690 --> 00:50:50.517
to go to and and how to decide on a
career. This is a father's advice to.

00:50:50.550 --> 00:50:57.126
But um, the, one of the things that is
really important and I think I

00:50:57.159 --> 00:51:00.626
sort of did this, but it wasn't
because anybody said it. So I'd rather say

00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:05.367
it and have people know this upfront
is go for quality. Quality is really

00:51:05.400 --> 00:51:10.137
important and the trouble is it's
expensive and it's hard to get and so

00:51:10.170 --> 00:51:12.807
especially when budgets are bad,
they're always bad when they're really

00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:19.347
bad. Like right now quality can fall
by the wayside. Don't let it go for

00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:21.526
quality.

00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:24.697
That's that's the most important
thing. And then the rest of the means of

00:51:24.730 --> 00:51:29.967
achieving that like flexibility, be as
flexible as you can. I like to have

00:51:30.000 --> 00:51:34.287
a major of mathematics and a minor of
sociology because that was those are

00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:38.486
pretty different things and I think
that that's a good idea. You never can

00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:43.106
tell will come up the principal thing
is to go for quality then be

00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:47.557
flexible and and of course again
implementation but put yourself into

00:51:47.590 --> 00:51:51.577
situations where you're going to get
that possibility. So for instance,

00:51:51.610 --> 00:51:54.197
before I went to graduate school, I
traveled at my own expense to three

00:51:54.230 --> 00:51:57.387
universities to see who I work with
and what I thought of them and two of

00:51:57.420 --> 00:52:01.657
them I didn't like. So I went to
Wisconsin, we did like every student

00:52:01.690 --> 00:52:05.327
should do this, You don't have to get
your way, paid everything, get there

00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:10.186
, find out who you work with and
whether you like the overall situation

00:52:10.219 --> 00:52:13.077
I'm asking was pretty cold, but I
didn't figure that in, but it was worth

00:52:13.110 --> 00:52:17.236
it because of the training got there
and my advisor was somebody let me do

00:52:17.269 --> 00:52:22.146
things. I'm big on being led to do
things and I'm letting other people do

00:52:22.179 --> 00:52:28.247
that. So I think quality, you know um
one of the things that one of the

00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:34.577
greatest gifts that I got here at A.
S. U. Was was see I was here 11 years

00:52:34.610 --> 00:52:39.836
and then one later but 11 years and I
went to commencement in 22 times and

00:52:39.869 --> 00:52:42.657
most of those are like decor and he
always gives the same commencement

00:52:42.690 --> 00:52:48.856
address and it is wonderful and it is
help others keep learning and then

00:52:48.889 --> 00:52:53.916
he dresses it up with a lot about that
class. Those are good by words.

00:52:53.949 --> 00:53:00.186
Help others is a good thing to do. I
must mentor a couple 100 people these

00:53:00.219 --> 00:53:04.867
days. And that that has not gone down
because everyone wants to be a vice

00:53:04.900 --> 00:53:08.936
president or a dean of engineering or
something. And so they called me up

00:53:08.969 --> 00:53:12.077
and I talked with him about especially
especially women because I've

00:53:12.110 --> 00:53:16.256
implemented a lot of women in these
fields where they are very pretty

00:53:16.289 --> 00:53:19.836
sparse. And then the other one keep
learning well you need to learn

00:53:19.869 --> 00:53:24.767
something new if you have something to
say so you got to keep up on what's

00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:28.907
what's going on, which is why I've
been delighted to represent and I'm a

00:53:28.940 --> 00:53:33.517
start representing the council time to
society presidents in D. C. As well.

00:53:33.550 --> 00:53:37.177
Again the with phoenix as a base
because we always, we're going to come

00:53:37.210 --> 00:53:41.117
back here. I always went and we kept
kept up for things here all during

00:53:41.150 --> 00:53:44.756
the decade. We were away at the
University of Kansas and then at the

00:53:44.789 --> 00:53:50.217
university of texas

00:53:50.250 --> 00:53:53.517
we've had, you had a chance to talk
about a lot of different people and

00:53:53.550 --> 00:53:58.146
different connections with a issue so
far. Maybe you can tell us a little

00:53:58.179 --> 00:54:02.387
bit more about some of the people here
that had the greatest impact on you.

00:54:02.420 --> 00:54:05.477
You've already mentioned Roland Hayden
and Milton Glick and if you want

00:54:05.510 --> 00:54:08.526
to go into a little more detail on
them or some of the other folks that

00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:16.559
you worked with. The 1% should really
emphasize is Cindy Ryan. Um, and I

00:54:16.809 --> 00:54:20.316
should go back a little bit. My
parents were were like Cindy, they were

00:54:20.349 --> 00:54:23.807
staff, not faculty at the University
of Kansas all those years, 70 years

00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:29.606
between. So I really understood that
side of things better than any other.

00:54:29.639 --> 00:54:33.057
And Cindy was was really useful a year
after I came here in computer

00:54:33.090 --> 00:54:38.057
science. We lured her over there from
mathematics were not above that as

00:54:38.090 --> 00:54:42.316
well. And so then she went with me of
course to the research office and

00:54:42.349 --> 00:54:47.666
she had an idea that turned out to be
really really quite clever. She two

00:54:47.699 --> 00:54:52.296
is good at understanding talent or
it's like I suppose. But anyway on the

00:54:52.329 --> 00:54:57.907
positive side, she said you got to go
to D. C. And do some things in your

00:54:57.940 --> 00:55:01.896
keep what you're doing for the issue
but do that and so I don't know, I

00:55:01.929 --> 00:55:05.267
take good advice where I can get it
and so I started doing that and turns

00:55:05.300 --> 00:55:10.447
out I'm good at that. And so in this
book about competitive is not gonna

00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:15.887
make research actually spread the A.
S. U. Research story. Yeah, in a sort

00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:19.677
of methodological way that is if, if
you, the other universities that we

00:55:19.710 --> 00:55:24.026
were talking with, if you set up a
strategic plan and keep these points in

00:55:24.059 --> 00:55:29.336
mind, you can do a lot better too. You
can also develop big teams at the

00:55:29.369 --> 00:55:34.787
university of Kansas where I went back
after I was here ah we won both and

00:55:34.820 --> 00:55:37.727
injuring research center and a science
and technology center. Those are

00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:41.276
the biggest things there are at the
National Science Foundation and only

00:55:41.309 --> 00:55:44.956
the U. Of A. And Berkeley had them at
the same had both those things when

00:55:44.989 --> 00:55:50.206
K. U. Which is a really small
university compared to A S. You had them.

00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:55.146
The other folks here. I got my little
list because like in the Mikado and

00:55:55.179 --> 00:55:59.606
it's it's not little and I'll leave
out some people and don't be mad. Just

00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:03.686
maybe you'll be glad music is not
going to play like at the Oscars here so

00:56:03.719 --> 00:56:08.546
you can there you go, okay well in the
administration when I was in the

00:56:08.579 --> 00:56:13.267
research office Brent, Brown was a
tremendous help to me Because I spent

00:56:13.300 --> 00:56:17.776
22 years in Utah and just loved it. My
kids are Utah two kids and I met

00:56:17.809 --> 00:56:23.117
marigold there. So hey, what else is
there? Uh, and Brent was just like

00:56:23.150 --> 00:56:27.256
all the good old boys that I worked
with really well at the University of

00:56:27.289 --> 00:56:31.997
Utah, like Brent real well. And also,
you know, I'm a sports guy and I

00:56:32.030 --> 00:56:35.597
figured anybody could get along with
the bid wells was a guy to imitate

00:56:35.630 --> 00:56:39.336
and to get to know, you know, the
cardinals from Brown University vice

00:56:39.369 --> 00:56:44.497
president for university relations.
That's right at the time. Thank you.

00:56:44.530 --> 00:56:48.736
So then one other thing with him
before he escapes, he was a great friend

00:56:48.769 --> 00:56:51.477
as well as a great mentor and, and I
really learned how to be a vice

00:56:51.510 --> 00:56:55.356
president from him. The Glick stir
moves so fast it's hard to see what

00:56:55.389 --> 00:56:58.916
he's up to but, but Brent, you know,
you could actually keep up with. And

00:56:58.949 --> 00:57:05.447
uh, so anyway, he had a fellow named
frank hidalgo in his office and I

00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:07.376
have to tell this little story and has
something to do with what I do

00:57:07.409 --> 00:57:12.657
these days too. So I'm up for
something. I don't remember what exactly and

00:57:12.690 --> 00:57:16.887
frank addario says you want this and I
said, yep. And so frank has just a

00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:21.956
short sentence wasn't like Brent more
like others short sentence, which

00:57:21.989 --> 00:57:25.367
you have to take in the context of the
time. So this is about the 1980s,

00:57:25.400 --> 00:57:31.197
he says Frank says I will get the
brothers out.

00:57:31.230 --> 00:57:37.566
So okay, that was it. Into a
conversation. He goes away, That's it then. I

00:57:37.599 --> 00:57:41.086
don't know what happened, but I got it

00:57:41.119 --> 00:57:46.066
I guess. Well, they had some help, but
pretty sure. But anyway, I thought

00:57:46.099 --> 00:57:51.796
that was that was a nice way to put
it. Now. Some other folks, Peter

00:57:51.829 --> 00:57:55.597
Crouch is important. We have the same
background applied mathematics and

00:57:55.630 --> 00:57:58.506
then in this case applied to electoral
engineering. In my case applied to

00:57:58.539 --> 00:58:03.356
computer science. So we understand
each other really well. And I was chair

00:58:03.389 --> 00:58:07.456
of the search committee that ended up
with with him of course, uh click

00:58:07.489 --> 00:58:12.057
appointed him from a couple of
candidates. And so along along many years

00:58:12.090 --> 00:58:15.006
with with Peter, when I came back in
2000 and five, he was involved in

00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:19.017
that, along with john Fink and Gary
Crayon Bill, as well as the rest of

00:58:19.050 --> 00:58:24.537
the Dean's Carrie Crandall had to
associate Deans Gretchen. But I and

00:58:24.570 --> 00:58:28.896
Wendy Wilkins, who have become famous
in their own right. And a couple of

00:58:28.929 --> 00:58:33.387
years ago we met with them when they
were at the University of north texas

00:58:33.420 --> 00:58:37.086
President and vice president,
respectively.

00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:40.986
And that has to do with Sagna's, which
we'll get into in a minute. But

00:58:41.019 --> 00:58:45.186
yeah, but it was some, some great
folks and again, they were folks that

00:58:45.219 --> 00:58:49.387
we're getting to do things are out of
the norm in my opinion.

00:58:49.420 --> 00:58:53.436
Oh, over your years, you've been on
the outside looking in, you've been on

00:58:53.469 --> 00:58:56.787
the inside looking out, you've been
integral in the growth of the

00:58:56.820 --> 00:59:01.967
university and now retired and can see
things that are happening. And some

00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:07.787
of the things that you started, this
seems like a ah, masters

00:59:07.820 --> 00:59:12.336
comprehensive exam question. Maybe in
100 words or less, can you tell us

00:59:12.369 --> 00:59:18.986
how issue has changed the time you
arrived and tell you to, to your left?

00:59:19.019 --> 00:59:23.626
So that's right. The easiest thing is
to start with the city of Tempe

00:59:23.659 --> 00:59:28.776
itself because when I came, They
frankly looked a bit like a dive right

00:59:28.809 --> 00:59:34.066
around the university in 1986. And I
thought, you know, I came from

00:59:34.099 --> 00:59:39.037
straightly Salt Lake city. So I
thought that was kind of down in the dumps

00:59:39.070 --> 00:59:43.006
and the university was harder to get
my, put my finger on it. But again, I

00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:47.717
thought it was a promising adolescent
that sounds like I'm speaking down.

00:59:47.750 --> 00:59:52.086
But it isn't because remember I've
been at Kansas, Wisconsin and Utah,

00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:57.486
those are mature universities, very
mature universities of varying sizes.

00:59:57.519 --> 01:00:03.236
Uh, Wisconsin is one of the best in
the nation, always has been. So part

01:00:03.269 --> 01:00:06.807
of it was just to see what to make of
this. But the thing is, it had lots

01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:12.577
of promise, but promises good.
Sometimes you have to realize it. And so

01:00:12.610 --> 01:00:18.006
really, I, I think starting with maybe
with atlantic or maybe with milk

01:00:18.039 --> 01:00:23.796
but certainly the combination is when
things really picked up on in the

01:00:23.829 --> 01:00:27.347
arenas that I know about which is
research and and training in particular

01:00:27.380 --> 01:00:33.376
. I really got to do much, much bigger
things, really set their sights

01:00:33.409 --> 01:00:38.486
high and I know Michael Crowe has had
a great influence as president but

01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:43.876
he had a great influence as a
consultant. two milk click intervene as well.

01:00:43.909 --> 01:00:48.467
So we were, we tried for lots of
bigger things and people didn't get

01:00:48.500 --> 01:00:51.236
bumped off if they didn't make it
either. I mean, you know, you could try

01:00:51.269 --> 01:00:55.106
and you don't have to always succeed,
but as long as the vector was was

01:00:55.139 --> 01:01:02.876
going forward. So Crows Vision of the
American University is an excellent

01:01:02.909 --> 01:01:08.126
one. This next question. Looking at
the overall view of Arizona State

01:01:08.159 --> 01:01:14.577
University, what do you think has been
the most interesting achievements

01:01:14.610 --> 01:01:18.727
that the universities had here in the
last decade and maybe even looking

01:01:18.760 --> 01:01:22.497
ahead to the future because you
always, you, you were the man that took

01:01:22.530 --> 01:01:28.617
the long view the, the thing that
America and I both like best. This will

01:01:28.650 --> 01:01:33.367
get to that answer. I like best about
Arizona State University and which

01:01:33.400 --> 01:01:38.967
is if not unique, nearly unique at
Arizona State University is that people

01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:42.977
are allowed to try stuff that is
completely different.

01:01:43.010 --> 01:01:49.137
Okay, I come to administration from a
faculty position in Utah and a chair

01:01:49.170 --> 01:01:52.747
is a logical next step. It is not the
logical next step to become a vice

01:01:52.780 --> 01:01:57.586
president. Marigold comes from being a
faculty member of Utah and starts

01:01:57.619 --> 01:02:00.566
doing things with american indians in
science and technology, science and

01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:05.767
engineering, that is a major step. Not
many universities will let you have

01:02:05.800 --> 01:02:11.327
the freedom to try these things. Now,
of course you want to be successful.

01:02:11.360 --> 01:02:14.956
That's part of trying. But this is the
best thing about Arizona State

01:02:14.989 --> 01:02:19.727
University and I think it's the best
thing to this day and I don't know

01:02:19.760 --> 01:02:24.276
where it comes from, but it's part of
the ether, it's in the ether here

01:02:24.309 --> 01:02:29.736
Conrad that here people can try to do
things that are different and if

01:02:29.769 --> 01:02:36.467
they're successful then what a deal I
should point out on success that I

01:02:36.500 --> 01:02:40.867
view my career as occasionally having
pauses between successes, but I

01:02:40.900 --> 01:02:46.316
don't do failure. Okay, another
question, dealings with the regions, if

01:02:46.349 --> 01:02:53.407
you have any notice there about the
skewed towards the University of

01:02:53.440 --> 01:02:56.747
Arizona with the region's well sure, I
mean, you have to be blind not to

01:02:56.780 --> 01:03:03.566
notice that at the time, I don't know
if that's improved or not, but

01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:07.927
some of the region's tried to be fair
wherever they were from from and

01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:11.316
Eddie basha stands out in my mind as,
as a region that tried to be fair

01:03:11.349 --> 01:03:17.986
and Rudy Campbell also ah the,

01:03:18.019 --> 01:03:21.597
I think getting into it all, but when
I talk about how to do research

01:03:21.630 --> 01:03:26.356
universities, I don't just use my own
university as an example, Although

01:03:26.389 --> 01:03:29.606
that's the ones I know the best and I
include them but not just them. And

01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:33.617
so one of the things that I've always
done is included the U. Of A. And so

01:03:33.650 --> 01:03:38.637
I studied up on on what they had done
And their research started in 59

01:03:38.670 --> 01:03:44.467
really with astronomy And it was the
other one.

01:03:44.500 --> 01:03:48.776
And the indians, what's that called?
Anthropology? The two A's. Because

01:03:48.809 --> 01:03:53.677
those were natural advantages to use
clark curs phrase use your natural

01:03:53.710 --> 01:03:57.727
advantages that they had those. And
President Harvill at that time did

01:03:57.760 --> 01:04:04.586
that. And they've developed amazingly
well. So I was used the three

01:04:04.619 --> 01:04:08.577
universities I've been at a lot. Plus
the U. Of A. As my exemplars of

01:04:08.610 --> 01:04:14.206
different ways to achieve spectacular
results. Now the trouble in this

01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:19.177
state has always been not news to
anybody in this room. This thing before

01:04:19.210 --> 01:04:26.657
my time of us trying to keep this from
being a university. Ah that's kind

01:04:26.690 --> 01:04:33.956
of a civil war like thing. No. So I
don't know if you ever get over that.

01:04:33.989 --> 01:04:38.387
To tell you the truth. It's such a bad
thing to do in the first place in

01:04:38.420 --> 01:04:41.967
Kansas. We have rivalries with Kansas
state, but it's football and stuff

01:04:42.000 --> 01:04:45.747
like that. We don't really care now
with Missouri. It's different. That's

01:04:45.780 --> 01:04:50.907
the real civil war. So I can kind of
you know that's a stretched analogy

01:04:50.940 --> 01:04:56.166
but you made me a bad error back there
trying to push that tied back given

01:04:56.199 --> 01:05:00.597
the demographics here. I don't know
how you ever get get past that but you

01:05:00.630 --> 01:05:04.517
can do it locally like I did with
kosanovic where I refused to put up with

01:05:04.550 --> 01:05:08.887
with dichotomies and in Kansas I did
that really well because there I was

01:05:08.920 --> 01:05:14.517
the alpha dog university and so K.
State and Wichita State we're delighted

01:05:14.550 --> 01:05:19.456
to join K. U. And we did things as a
troika the three of us a lot. The

01:05:19.489 --> 01:05:24.097
three VPs research. I would have done
it here if I could have. Uh huh. But

01:05:24.130 --> 01:05:29.026
couldn't quite pull that off because
we we weren't the the upper dog. Well

01:05:29.059 --> 01:05:32.617
the day issue has improved faster much
faster but I forgot to get into

01:05:32.650 --> 01:05:35.537
that. There was one year right after I
went to Kansas a couple of years

01:05:35.570 --> 01:05:41.546
when the greater growth rate of
increase of research expenditures was a S

01:05:41.579 --> 01:05:45.236
. U. Was number one in the country and
K. U. Was second. And of course I

01:05:45.269 --> 01:05:50.577
was doubly proud of that because I had
a part of a major role in each of

01:05:50.610 --> 01:05:54.727
those things. So really when you're
comparing university's the thing to

01:05:54.760 --> 01:05:58.427
look at this is a mathematical
statement but a mild one is you have to

01:05:58.460 --> 01:06:04.146
look at the rate of increase the
history is what it is. And so okay that's

01:06:04.179 --> 01:06:07.256
good for orientation but nothing else
but the rate of growth is what

01:06:07.289 --> 01:06:11.097
matters. And that's what I've always
emphasized when I talk about these uh

01:06:11.130 --> 01:06:17.546
these places,

01:06:17.579 --> 01:06:20.686
one thing in D. C. That just happened,
I have to throw this in somewhere.

01:06:20.719 --> 01:06:25.267
This will do miracles. Just got a
presidential award in january and I was

01:06:25.300 --> 01:06:31.847
written up in the Emeritus College.
There are very few of these and it was

01:06:31.880 --> 01:06:37.747
acronym pays meme presidential Award
for Excellence in Science.

01:06:37.780 --> 01:06:43.227
Mathematics engineering mentoring
mentoring is now at the end of that They

01:06:43.260 --> 01:06:47.706
had four groups and 11 individuals
that got it for that year. And so that

01:06:47.739 --> 01:06:51.287
was based on her work work at
University of Kansas after we left here and

01:06:51.320 --> 01:06:55.347
at her work here at Arizona State
University and not on work before that

01:06:55.380 --> 01:06:58.557
because before that she was the fact
that ever so it's her work on getting

01:06:58.590 --> 01:07:03.436
american indians into science and
engineering when that. She is now a

01:07:03.469 --> 01:07:08.347
national leader and I even carry a
spear for once in a while. You haven't

01:07:08.380 --> 01:07:14.077
come to that. But what I'm doing now
is we always we're going to come back

01:07:14.110 --> 01:07:17.577
to Arizona. And so we kept the house
here. You know, we're going for a

01:07:17.610 --> 01:07:21.646
decade. Always planned to come back.
So we are back but we're going a lot

01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:26.307
and I help Sagna's which mary will
help start Sagna's Society for

01:07:26.340 --> 01:07:32.287
advancement of chicanos and native
americans in science 38 years old and I

01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:35.927
am their first vice president and in
this case for science policy and

01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:39.686
strategic initiatives. I love
strategic initiative that's from milk like

01:07:39.719 --> 01:07:44.447
that was the first title I had here
was researching that anyway. And so I

01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:47.367
opened A D. C. Office for him already
which is what their version of

01:07:47.400 --> 01:07:51.086
research one is. That's what they'll
remember before. But what's important

01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:57.467
is that I have gotten them so they are
known in the nation's capital.

01:07:57.500 --> 01:08:01.756
And again it's a spin off of the work
here and it started here with a nasa

01:08:01.789 --> 01:08:05.927
program acronym Aztec A. I. S. T. E.
C. American indian science and

01:08:05.960 --> 01:08:12.017
technology engineering consortium. And
there was a issue university of

01:08:12.050 --> 01:08:16.336
Washington. Somebody else like that
Haskell indian nations university

01:08:16.369 --> 01:08:21.376
which is in Lawrence Kansas and Salish
kootenai and a third. And so the

01:08:21.409 --> 01:08:26.277
whole story on that is lata cora
president gets something joined this

01:08:26.310 --> 01:08:30.967
thing reforming called Aztec three Big
Universities Majority Universities

01:08:31.000 --> 01:08:36.076
, three Tribal Colleges. Okay now and
this will tell you more about

01:08:36.109 --> 01:08:41.036
central administration than you want.
But he pushes on the milk, click

01:08:41.069 --> 01:08:48.416
okay now the slickster always alert.
He says okay Barnhill. And so because

01:08:48.449 --> 01:08:54.196
you do ahead marigold so between us
mary goldeneye uh in that situation

01:08:54.229 --> 01:08:58.786
equaled one president because we would
often did this and helped lead that

01:08:58.819 --> 01:09:02.406
consortium that led to a lot of other
things too including this basement

01:09:02.439 --> 01:09:06.847
thing but that was started here at at
A. S. U. And so I actually really

01:09:06.880 --> 01:09:11.647
really deserves a lot of credit for
that. So you never stop learning and

01:09:11.680 --> 01:09:16.937
you're still haven't stopped learning
and then we have this word retiree.

01:09:16.970 --> 01:09:20.637
Obviously you're not just sitting
around, you're still doing things,

01:09:20.670 --> 01:09:25.437
what's occupying your time as a
retiree? I've been the busiest I've ever

01:09:25.470 --> 01:09:29.036
been in my life.

01:09:29.069 --> 01:09:34.946
Well, first of all, retirement is a
fungible term these years. Uh and it

01:09:34.979 --> 01:09:38.897
doesn't mean the same thing as as it
might, there was dead for instance to

01:09:38.930 --> 01:09:41.137
my parents,

01:09:41.170 --> 01:09:48.416
it's, it's something pretty much
different. So at issue itself, the soon

01:09:48.449 --> 01:09:52.586
as I was back here, Elmer Gooding
learned about that and so I was elected

01:09:52.619 --> 01:09:57.897
to the S. U. R. A, what's that called?
Board of directors and then as soon

01:09:57.930 --> 01:10:01.227
as that term ends, uh Elmer still
around or somebody maybe it's Lynn

01:10:01.260 --> 01:10:06.927
Gordon? And so it was, it was like
going, it was like no break in here and

01:10:06.960 --> 01:10:10.177
then there's three years that have
just started with the issue Emeritus

01:10:10.210 --> 01:10:17.246
College Council. So we're helping them
now with the issue or a, I was

01:10:17.279 --> 01:10:22.076
privileged the middle year of the
three to help put on that retirees day,

01:10:22.109 --> 01:10:25.887
which is, which is the big event
really of that organization. Although I

01:10:25.920 --> 01:10:29.996
realized that there are lots of other
things like this series with the

01:10:30.029 --> 01:10:34.357
College MEREDITH College Council. Well
both those organizations are

01:10:34.390 --> 01:10:38.336
imitated widely across the country and
many places would like to imitate

01:10:38.369 --> 01:10:44.597
them. So I got questions even at Utah
where I go back often about how one

01:10:44.630 --> 01:10:48.166
or the other of a S. U. R. A. Or the
issue emeritus College, how are they

01:10:48.199 --> 01:10:52.246
set up with the view to where they
want to do the same thing. What are you

01:10:52.279 --> 01:10:59.097
doing for fun? What do I do for fun?
Well that ties in with with the, the

01:10:59.130 --> 01:11:02.477
issue of Meritus College because they
had me write book reviews. Now

01:11:02.510 --> 01:11:06.956
writing book reviews is not fun, but
reading the books is, and so I read

01:11:06.989 --> 01:11:13.036
about 100 50 books a year now that I
don't have to do other things and I'm

01:11:13.069 --> 01:11:16.887
pretty omnivorous. I mean, as long as
there's quality, we're back to that

01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:21.156
again. And so I've discovered the
author Donald leon for instance and she

01:11:21.189 --> 01:11:25.796
writes elegant things about venice.
Okay, so that's quality. Jonathan

01:11:25.829 --> 01:11:29.496
Yardley writes reviews for the
Washington post. Those are always of high

01:11:29.529 --> 01:11:33.027
quality and we appear to be exactly
the same age. That's one of the

01:11:33.060 --> 01:11:37.446
interesting things about writing book
reviews for a group that's a certain

01:11:37.479 --> 01:11:43.006
age is that you can rely on their
knowing what Sputnik means. For instance

01:11:43.039 --> 01:11:47.076
, I was a freshman in college and then
program the first computer at the

01:11:47.109 --> 01:11:50.126
university of Kansas, one of the first
people to do that. That was the

01:11:50.159 --> 01:11:55.206
next year after Sputnik, that means
something to my generation and nothing

01:11:55.239 --> 01:12:03.239
to say my Children's generation. Yeah,
so read all the time. Marigold is

01:12:03.550 --> 01:12:08.977
active as you can imagine With this
pavement award. She gets an invitation

01:12:09.010 --> 01:12:13.737
every week to go do something and
she's something like the 13th and the

01:12:13.770 --> 01:12:20.156
17th American Indian to get a PhD in
this nation and she's still alive. So

01:12:20.189 --> 01:12:24.347
you know, this is actually an
appalling statistic, but she was the first

01:12:24.380 --> 01:12:29.166
California reservation indian to go to
university and she got a PhD so she

01:12:29.199 --> 01:12:35.567
didn't just go, but she was in the
first class at UC riverside and then at

01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:40.206
U C L A for a PhD and we met at the
university of Utah where we were both

01:12:40.239 --> 01:12:44.217
high powered faculty folks,

01:12:44.250 --> 01:12:48.576
she was in psychology and I was in
mathematics, we're both mildly

01:12:48.609 --> 01:12:53.036
competitive. So that's, that's always
kind of abusing one of the things

01:12:53.069 --> 01:12:58.696
that came up there, this, it's kind of
a cool story, prenuptial agreements

01:12:58.729 --> 01:13:03.956
for middle aged folks, okay. She says
I couldn't possibly marry, marry

01:13:03.989 --> 01:13:09.777
anybody that can't play tennis. And so
I did what I always do,

01:13:09.810 --> 01:13:13.336
mathematicians do this, I go off for a
day and I think about it, then I

01:13:13.369 --> 01:13:17.046
come back to the counter proposal. I
said what a good idea. And of course

01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:22.427
you'll learn to play soccer now she
about hits the ceiling. She says what

01:13:22.460 --> 01:13:25.706
middle aged can't do that, blah blah
blah. But then when mary was a very

01:13:25.739 --> 01:13:28.597
big on equity we both are, she then
she thinks about it, she says, well

01:13:28.630 --> 01:13:33.826
actually he can say the same thing
about learning to play tennis. So we

01:13:33.859 --> 01:13:37.836
each got the other coach, You got me
her tennis coach and I learned to

01:13:37.869 --> 01:13:41.217
play tennis and it doubles anybody
within 20 years of us, we could beat

01:13:41.250 --> 01:13:46.027
after a while because soccer players
can get to the ball. And then uh, we

01:13:46.060 --> 01:13:50.817
formed correct teams that Utah and did
some of that here in Tempe as well.

01:13:50.850 --> 01:13:53.826
And for a few years even my son john
and the three of us got to play on

01:13:53.859 --> 01:13:58.406
the same team. That was magic. There
aren't very many years about that and

01:13:58.439 --> 01:14:02.807
I have to throw in one story of that
type. I love soccer stories the in

01:14:02.840 --> 01:14:05.786
soccer. So this, this is a 10 piece
story. So we're playing down here in

01:14:05.819 --> 01:14:09.567
Kaunas park and, and it's a sunday and
it's, it's a more or less friendly

01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:14.347
game friendly like retirement is not
quite the word to use for soccer, but

01:14:14.380 --> 01:14:18.887
okay. As friendly as it gets on a
sunday and son john sends a long ball

01:14:18.920 --> 01:14:23.366
learning the game and I get it. Okay.
And something happens 30 minutes

01:14:23.399 --> 01:14:27.857
later, Soccer games for 90 minutes, 30
minutes later, another long ball.

01:14:27.890 --> 01:14:33.137
Very same good ball. I don't get it.
He says shots across the field now

01:14:33.170 --> 01:14:37.027
is where you can tell it's friendly so
everybody can hear this is, hey,

01:14:37.060 --> 01:14:43.196
you didn't get that, which is kind of
obvious. And he says, how come old

01:14:43.229 --> 01:14:48.446
age And he says in 30 minutes. Well,

01:14:48.479 --> 01:14:52.467
if you've played a sport, it actually
is in 30 minutes because your legs

01:14:52.500 --> 01:14:57.147
have been left somewhere else. Well

01:14:57.180 --> 01:15:01.477
anyway, so again, that was some of the
happy happy times. Yeah. I don't

01:15:01.510 --> 01:15:05.097
still play soccer. Of course you have
to give these things up someday. But

01:15:05.130 --> 01:15:09.637
we walk a couple of hours every day
and keep track of it. And and again we

01:15:09.670 --> 01:15:13.527
go to Dc off. Where do you see? About
a month? About a week? A month

01:15:13.560 --> 01:15:19.506
bought a condiment in Arlington to
make that easy and help and others.

01:15:19.539 --> 01:15:24.076
Okay. Is there anything else that
areas maybe we haven't covered that? You

01:15:24.109 --> 01:15:28.536
just want to have a final comment on.
It's been a real pleasure talking to

01:15:28.569 --> 01:15:32.866
you today. Well it always is the, I
wanna talk a little bit about, I

01:15:32.899 --> 01:15:35.817
mentioned earlier that with my parents
and then with Mario and I going

01:15:35.850 --> 01:15:38.847
back to. Kay you for a while. We had
our family has 100 years of service

01:15:38.880 --> 01:15:42.506
to the university of Kansas. Well what
about Arizona State University?

01:15:42.539 --> 01:15:48.307
Okay. This for my family was in Utah
as well was a completely new venture

01:15:48.340 --> 01:15:52.906
because my family all grew up in
Kansas and we're educators but at not at

01:15:52.939 --> 01:15:58.036
higher education levels. Long history
in Kansas. So what's this western

01:15:58.069 --> 01:16:03.126
business? Ah Well I really fell in
love with the desert. The high desert

01:16:03.159 --> 01:16:07.147
first in Utah and then the low desert
here and there is a state university

01:16:07.180 --> 01:16:12.406
we now have about a quarter of a
century of service. And moreover. Um This

01:16:12.439 --> 01:16:16.567
is where the son john got his degree
in G. I. S. Geographic information

01:16:16.600 --> 01:16:20.446
systems. Favorite professor Pat go
bury insists I always tell her that

01:16:20.479 --> 01:16:24.166
when I was here and I do and you know,
we went back to school like it

01:16:24.199 --> 01:16:30.366
works, works there and my daughter has
an S. U. History. This is something

01:16:30.399 --> 01:16:33.737
slightly different then as she went
here for a semester and got all A's

01:16:33.770 --> 01:16:37.227
and then decided she needed to find
herself. And it turned out she was

01:16:37.260 --> 01:16:42.057
tired of desert. I love it. But she so
she went to Seattle and eventually

01:16:42.090 --> 01:16:44.467
got an undergraduate degree at the
University of Washington and they got a

01:16:44.500 --> 01:16:49.656
PhD at the University of Hawaii. I
guess Guam's next. But I don't know a

01:16:49.689 --> 01:16:53.166
lot of water. No, what's next is cal
poly and that's where she is now in

01:16:53.199 --> 01:16:57.906
san luis Obispo. But one of my points
to that story is that she would be

01:16:57.939 --> 01:17:03.196
viewed as bringing down a sus
graduation rate because she was here for a

01:17:03.229 --> 01:17:08.946
semester and then didn't graduate here
even though she got a PhD someplace

01:17:08.979 --> 01:17:12.427
else and got other degrees along the
way. So those metrics are lousy

01:17:12.460 --> 01:17:16.677
unless they really attract people and
a. S. You and no one else should put

01:17:16.710 --> 01:17:22.796
up with them. Best sidebar. Main thing
is we really enjoyed it here and

01:17:22.829 --> 01:17:27.376
and and we still do and this is our
base. And so any of these things, all

01:17:27.409 --> 01:17:30.647
the retirements fungible, I have a
cardinal rule is and that is that I'm

01:17:30.680 --> 01:17:36.607
gonna use phoenix as my base. Always.
So this is The default places where

01:17:36.640 --> 01:17:38.927
we are, this is where we have lots of
friends, we have lots of rooms

01:17:38.960 --> 01:17:42.737
everywhere, but this is where we have
the ones we've kept up with for

01:17:42.770 --> 01:17:47.387
since 86, we when we came here and in
fact we knew a lot of people before

01:17:47.420 --> 01:17:50.756
that Joaquin Gusteau's tried to hire
me in the mathematics department in

01:17:50.789 --> 01:17:55.456
the seventies, in fact. Um but then I
was just getting into computer

01:17:55.489 --> 01:17:58.767
graphics so it wasn't the time to to
go somewhere else. That was a career

01:17:58.800 --> 01:18:06.637
changing activity there. But this
issue is a great place to be. Don't,

01:18:06.670 --> 01:18:12.097
never, never forget site of that
because people will let you let you try

01:18:12.130 --> 01:18:18.777
to do things forget state politics,
national politics or the Arizona State

01:18:18.810 --> 01:18:24.996
University itself is a truly great
place to be. And I sometimes think that

01:18:25.029 --> 01:18:29.996
the beauty of its natural beauty
coincides with the beauty of letting

01:18:30.029 --> 01:18:33.807
people letting people do things

01:18:33.840 --> 01:18:38.357
well, it's been a pleasure this
morning. Dr Barnhill, great to see you.

01:18:38.390 --> 01:18:42.289
Good luck, Terrific. Thankyou