Good morning. Today is Monday April 11, 2011. And we are conducting an
interview for the Arizona State University retirees association
association video history project. We're located today at the Engineering
Deans conference room at the brickyard in downtown Tempe. My name is
konrad store Odd. I'm the retired editor of A. S. U. Research magazine and
former director of the office of research publications at Arizona State
University. The technical support staff today includes john mccomb ish on
operating the camera, roger carter, audio and dave shots. Lee is the
director. Also in attendance is linda Vance Coy, chair of the S. U. R. A
video history project.
Please introduce yourself and starting with your name and your position at
A S. U. And let our viewers know a little bit about your early life. Okay
, Conrad, it's robert Barnhill and Arizona State University. I was the
chairman of Computer science and then the vice president for research and
strategic initiatives and some other things. Uh I grew up in the shadow of
the University of Kansas. Lawrence Kansas and my parents spent their
entire careers there seven years between the two of them at the university
of Kansas. When I was 12 I decided I should get a PhD in mathematics and
when I was 24 I did at the University of Kansas And then I was a full
professor at 31. That part was easy, that was simple. Back in Lawrence
Kansas, I was the first National Merit scholar from Lawrence high school.
And then I was, well the University of Kansas graduated with highest
honors mathematics major sociology minor. Well before Arizona State
University, the University of Utah, that's where I went after my PhD at
Wisconsin in 1964 I was supposed to start numerical analysis. So we did,
my PhD was in numerical analysis, which was a certain kind of applied
mathematics
and this is, But in the Mathematics Department, 1964, this is before there
there were computer science departments. So although I knew a lot about
computers, then it had to be in that on that subject. Even Wisconsin,
which is pretty advanced, didn't have a computer science degree until a
couple years after I left PhD.
And in the 1970s, computer graphics started at the University of Utah and
my team was the mathematical part of that fairly famous group that got
computer graphics started. Now we take it so graphic so much for granted
now that it's hard to imagine this, But the graphics available at the time
in the early 70s there we're storage tubes, you get a picture and then Big
Flash and then you get another picture. So it was like frames except that
you definitely saw the frames and so you couldn't have emotion or anything
like that. And so what happens in Sutherland David Evans and Ivan
Sutherland Utah did, was, was to get interactive computer graphics, which
is the kind we're used to now. Ah But anyway, they, they did mostly well
applications that were in caD cam and they were really mathematically
trivial like circles and cones and shapes and stuff like that. They didn't
do anything of any mathematical interest beyond the Greeks about the time
of christ. So that was a little far behind.
And and it turned out that uh with always emphasize surfaces, not curves,
curves are too easy surfaces and volumes and things like that. Those are
much harder mathematically. And so we my team would develop equations that
would interpolate values and then create a virtual surface. And from that
you could then interpret and tell other things. So you never have complete
information. So if you try to map the brain for instance, you'll have some
data points and you have to interpret to get any information anywhere else.
And you and you want to be able to do that. The measurements may be
expensive in oil drilling for instance, the measurements are very
expensive Because each one is a drill. And so you have to have methods for
mapping the surface of the oil. You know from a few data points that takes
high powered mathematics. And it was just the kind of thing that we were
developing anyway. So this is an example where technology created some
science because with this new technology then we slanted what we had been
doing to match up with this new stuff so we could use equipment. One of
the most interesting projects we did. Uh And this was here was a social
science project where there's psychotics,
psychological tests of California inmates in prisons. And they wanted to
predict whether they were going to be real violent when they got out or
not based on psychology tests to be that spicy. But anyway, that was the
question we were given this had multiple dimensions. So how do you
visualize the six or seven dimensional surface? Given a few data points?
How do you create a surface? And how do you visualize it to get any
information out? Because data is not information. How do I take these data
that they have the tests and then create surfaces that will be able to
predict how they behave in other situations. Very tough stuff. That stuff
today. So
as a as a little kid, I like comic books and I as a big guy finally
decided actually I thought the stories are trash but but I like the
pictures and so that was all the graphics that were for little kids at the
time I grew up, I didn't realize that at the time, of course. But looking
back, I've always wanted to merge geometry and algebra. There's really
only two parts of mathematics, geometry and algebra in the algebra of the
things you can program on a computer formulas and stuff like that. Our
pictures, which can be virtual pictures, but still, you know higher
dimensions. So I've always, I've always thought balance in my life and as
many things as I could. And I did mathematics to and that isn't the way
mathematics has ever taught. It's always just algebraic. Unless you're
real lucky. We started the subject called computer aided geometric design
and the journal and that is still published. That's this month, in fact,
Some 30 years later.
So Kansas to Utah Wisconsin. And finally you get to the sonoran desert. So
when did you arrive at issue? And how many years were you here? Well, I
was at Utah 22 years and then came to from the high desert to the low
desert Conrad. And I knew about Arizona state a lot because we were in the
back together and it was, it was a place to lose football games as far as
the University of Utah went at that time. Ah And also there was one of my
PhD graduates, Greg Nielson, I was in the Mathematics Department and he
had a lot to do with our eventually coming here, which was in 1986. So
America and I came here in 1986
in my case to be chairman of the computer science department. In her case
to work in the education college on doing things with american indians.
We'll get back to earlier too.
Tell us a little bit about what the issue was like when you first got here.
Well, when we first got here, Tempe is a town was sort of sleepy and a
issue itself was an awakening giant. Now Wisconsin was a giant too and it
was a week so I was, I used to both large universities but also mature
universities and here at Arizona State University. The thing that I like
best about it was the chance to do different things. Anyway, officially I
came as chair of computer science. Roland Hayden was the dean who hired me
and it was one of my implicit mentors I would say. And there are a lot of
other stories about engineering we may get back to that, tell us about a
little bit about the administrative structure at that time. So Bill Lewis
was chair when you got here, who was dean and provost and who was
president of issue at that time. Good questions. So the dean was Roland
Hayden who brought me in and he was, he operated at a high level
engineering excellence had gotten going at the time and and so on. The
provost was Jack Kinzinger and marigold in particular through his office,
got her appointment in the College of Education. Russ nelson was the
president and as a chair, you didn't actually get to interact with the top
administration so much, which is true everywhere, but that's who the folks
were and I got to know him a little bit also, I served on Henry Reeves,
faculty advisory committee, Henry Reeves of course argue. Conrad was the
first vice president for research at Arizona State University. Alright
switch gears a little bit here, going just to Geography on campus. Tell us
some of the places you were located during your time here on campus. You
had lots of different offices. But where were you at? That's a good
question. So in the original engineering buildings first and forgotten
which letter building. But anyway, one of them over there, that's still
there and I helped get the Goldwater Science Engineering building on the
campus and failed to get an hour in that because by that time I'd gone to
the research office and at that time as linda knows, we were in the
administration building. I think that was its official name anyway, still
there and still has things going on. Well, tell us a little, give us a
little more detail about how your career here progressed. What do you
remember most about your career here at issue? I mean you did a lot of
different things. Give us a little timeline. Sure. Well the first part was
the computer science side. And then after five years uh milk click arrived
on the scene as the provost and that's how I also got to be linda
Vansickle and other folks as well. But the slickster as Alan Price called
him was was really a terrific mentor, although he would deny being a
mentor to anybody. But there was a whole group of us about 20 at one of
the nostalgic meetings. The National Association of State Universities and
Land grant colleges. They got together informally. We'd all been mentioned
by Glick and gotten into higher administration. So as the second vice
president for research, there were lots of opportunities. Um, there were
some terrific inheritances like Conrad and and the research magazine and
we'll get him to talk more about aspects of that in a little bit. And then
there were some things that needed some some help, such as getting a
faculty oriented set of folks in certain key offices. We also set up our
distance site scheme where we put our people out with the faculty where
they were in the, in the different colleges. And uh, also dropped the
first strategic plan for research at Arizona State University. Now that's
important because that's a systemic approach to research. One of things I
should mention in this connection is working with the library.
That was Sherry. Schmidt was the dean and we went to the library and we
said, what books do you get? What feels that is? Do you get books in? Mm
hmm. That took a while. But then also in terms of external grants and
other measures? Different measures for the fine arts for instance? Um,
what are we also good at? And then how do you match these two things
together? How do you match the books and journals that you get? What are
we really good at? And that was a continuing dialogue all the time. I was
in the research office, but it helped a systemic approach to what were we
really good at and what can we make a name for ourselves as a university.
The computer science department was fairly new when you got here, what,
what was it like? Good question. It had just been in existence for five
years. And one of my best friends here became one of my best friends. Bill
Lewis had been the initial chair. So I was the second chair of computer
science. And at the time, I see that was the early 80s computer science
was a fetish thing. So it had basically an infinite number of people
wanting to study it. And so it had a service role that department did,
which was very large. Now Bill went up to the dean's office as associate
dean for computing. And I came and what I did was try to make that
department become much more scholarly the first five years they had just
services students. But then we kept that up. Uh, and one of my proudest
proudest things in that department as chair is that we quadrupled our
scholarly output in the five years that I was chair. So that's not so bad.
And we also hired three female faculty And that was the first and in fact
it stayed at 1st for quite a while. I don't know if they ever did to her
anymore many years later. So those were big things and then we continued
to meet the service obligations of the department, which were quite large.
But now it's time to give us a little more detail about your department
as in computer science. And even as VP some of the really special
outstanding accomplishments that happen. And if you talked about a few of
them, you can, you can emphasize a little more if you'd like on those
accomplishments maybe starting computer science things you're most proud
of in computer science. Roland Hayden had done his homework about me and
so he knew about our research group and we brought most of it here from
the University of Utah. And so what he originally told me there was, this
was good advice lead by example. You yourself and your group, you know our
track record, just keep doing that And that will start us off because
there weren't very many grants, there was some scholarly publication, but
it was all sort of in a state of startup state because the department was
only five years old when I took it over. And as I say, they were drowning
in the number of students that wanted to take computer science, which is a
good thing. But drowning is not so really established journals get out
there and give talks and also integrate with the community. That's very
important and in engineering at every university that's important. But I
learned to speak engineering as well as science when I came to Arizona
State University. Little story about that Conrad At the University of Utah
had about 20 phds and a similar number of Masters finished there of my own.
And the last one is from computer graphics. When I started, that was the
second half of them all went into industry after they got their phds. Okay
, so they'd come back and I'd say, okay, you're an industry, you have a
card, let's see it out. It comes some adjective engineer, Okay, But
they're always engineer. The noun was always engineer. Ah this is
mathematics phds and here they come. So one of the reasons that I was
attracted to to come to A. S. U. Was to be in computer science department
and in engineering because if you're defined by your product, my product
had become engineering apparently. So I like that way of looking at it.
Another topic is the electronics industry in Arizona and the history of
it, it looks like a lot of the companies that are here now, maybe they got
their interest in Arizona because of what was going on engineering a wing
and the wing. And
when you were in there, what was your relationship with Intel Honeywell
was Company. One of the things I was told when I took the job was that you
will form an industrial liaison committee which the computer science
department hadn't had up to that point. So I did and they had
representatives from each of those on it at the right management level to
interact with with the department and Roland Hayden was really good about
that stuff. Engineering excellence. He understood how to work with those
people in an optimal way better than I guess maybe anybody I've met.
Although when I was in the U. T. System, the A. And M. System which is
where rolling it ended up. It was also pretty good at this.
I am I think that takes a special person or at least a person with a
special interest. Yeah, it takes a special, you have to have the right
background to do that And everybody, every university says they want to do
that. But maybe 5% do it well. But Hayden was maybe the best I've ever
seen it at that. That was one of the things that I tried to learn from him.
Lots of interesting things happened in engineering. Well, I was here.
Roland Hayden went off to do something at West and then left the
university and went to some other places. So George bickley comes in. All
right, George meekly. He had been Roland Hayden is not to put too fine
line on it. Hit man has Associate Dean. And so that is deep and George. He
wasn't really a lovable guy, but I liked him. And so George 12:01 a.m. The
day he became Dean fired for the six chairs in the College of Engineering.
Look it up. So that was I thought that was pretty interesting. That was a
year or two after I got here and I was one of the two out of six I guess.
So, you know, nothing about George I really liked was he would give one
word descriptions of people, engineering can be carried to that extreme.
And so he would have one word to describe his various chairs and
unfortunately don't remember any of them except my own uh, what do you
call me? Really interested me Conrad, you've known me a long time. The one
word description was steely. That wasn't marbles either. This uh, so I
never quite knew what to make of that, but maybe he knew that I'd like to
play soccer and, you know, soccer players and don't get bumped off the
ball too much without reaching back. So steely. Yeah, I wouldn't either.
But that was, but part of it is what does your boss think you are? So
that's what he thought. Well, not so bad basically to me was sort of the
mm prototypical engineer really got down to it and so on and with all the
strength and a few weaknesses that that has but primarily strengths and he
wasn't a guy that you could like or dislike in my case. I mean, that just
didn't occur to me. But uh with George, I mean, he always made sure you
knew he was the boss. That's one of the downsides of some engineers. They
have and in case you've forgotten. So uh huh I don't know about that. But
you knew where you were. Yeah,
Think about firing four people at 12:01 AM. I didn't think much of that.
What were some of those other one word terms? Well, I really don't
remember. But they weren't good. That was the trouble. You had a chance to
do lots of different things. But of course it's not always smooth sailing
to get these things done. Can you talk a little bit about some of the
challenges that you encountered during your career, both as a faculty
member, maybe an administrator? Financial however you wanna couch that.
But what what were some of the challenges you had to overcome to reach?
Some of the achievements that you've done here at the university? One of
the things that I didn't realize as a faculty member at Utah, but I did
find out when I got into administration is that the little green man
jealousy can come out and can lead to lead to surprising results and
usually not good ones. And so
For instance as chair, I got death threats from back to the member that
didn't get 10 years. Uh huh. And then also that's a challenge. That was a
challenge. And we kept an eye. Uh, and then anonymous letters started when
I was here as chair and they're anonymous to the people that got them, but
not to be of course. And so we're always financial challenges. There's,
there's a great quote I liked when I was chair of Computer science. We had
to close a couple of sections because we had that unexpected thing of a
midyear budget cut. I think they happen every year now. And so we had to
close some some popular section and everyone is unhappy. And so being a
young guy, I just said, well, you know, we can't print the money and the
state press thought that was enough to put it there so that I got hit with
that a few times. But it was a true fact. So there we go
during your tenure as VP for research as she became a research one
university, maybe you can tell us a little bit about the significance of
that achievement. Yeah, that's that's excellent. That was I think 1994 and
that was the biggest single marker during the time that I was in the
research office would be the biggest marker in time anybody was in a
research office. Because research one means it's a Carnegie foundation
classification. They've changed the names but that's what it was then. And
it means that you have arrived at the the top tier in terms of research
universities and it's based on research expenditures and variety of other
things. Number of phds graduated but a S. U. Was was sort of as I say, a a
giant in the making, just ready to be unfolded. And so we were really
pleased to get that designation and the external funding did more than
double in the six years that I was in the research office as we helped
faculty go for much bigger things than they had done before. That is we
continue to support all the things that went on before, but it helped him
get bigger grants as well. It wasn't all grants. Richard Lovelace at the
Institute for Studies in the Arts was one of the key folks that we worked
with and other folks as well. Can you tell us a little bit about some of
the special people? You remember that were part of this? That's pretty
significant. Pretty quick. Rise to research one status from 1986 being
determined to be a research university and then 90 forgetting that status.
So there's a lot of people involved, Maybe you can tell us a little about
it, some of the people that you remember as being really a significant in
the whole process. Yeah, there's, there's a whole a little set of folks
there, but Milt Glick was very important in this and so was the President
Larry core. President Core. So he came in 1990, I think it was
approximately. And uh, and he worked with the Carnegie Foundation on some
of that. But several things happened. Well, one of the things before I go
to the people themselves is another prop. Um, Arizona State University and
indiana University were invited to a meeting from which this book,
competitiveness and academic research or the triple A. S came out? And
this was a meeting of Eps core state folks score means States that don't
get as much federal funding as as the as the norm is. But the two of us
George walker from indiana University and myself were invited to talk
about how our universities have made big steps forward in research
research productivity. So the F score states could learn from that. And
Tripoli has formed a group to which I still interact today 20 years later.
And so the thing was, how do you put together a big, big groups, big
joint efforts. We hired Jim Mayor on the basis of that kind of thing. Dave
Ferry was one of the key people early on. Let's see, lots of other folks.
Ben Forsyth was important. Later. Coors right hand person that came with
him from Vermont on the brain mapping project that I was involved in
intrinsically
Peter Crouch, Gary Crayon Bill, Lots of other folks. So it was a massive
effort. And of course a s You had had research going on for a long time. A
mistake is to think that things start with yourself. We already had
research going on. But what we didn't have was a systemic look at it. A
strategic plan. After a couple of years we did. Well, here's a tough
question because I get this one all the time as an author and the kids
will ask me. Conrad what's what's your favorite book you've ever written?
So that's the hardest question you can never ask an author. Well you've
done a lot of things in your career, not only here at issue but other
places. Is there one accomplishment here at the issue that has given you
the most satisfaction?
One accomplishment at A. S. U. I suppose though really getting a. S. U.
Research on the national map because across the institution it wasn't
there uh certain folks like solid state science and software engineering
they were but not as a whole institution and for university of its size
and promise uh there was a mistake for it not to be there. And so it
really needed a systemic look that is it needed a strategic plan and then
follow up the strategic plan and it hadn't had that before. So I think I
was proudest of that. And again the manifestation is the easy thing is the
research one status. Mhm. But that's also like talking about grants as
being the end result of things which they aren't, it's the intellectual
capital that is the end result not not just money and things like that. So
I think that was the most important thing. And in the research off the
biggest thing there was there was a tech transfer that happened both here
and at the U. Of a. Although they weren't related. I somehow feel like
that was in the ether to at the time. And tech transfer is a tricky item
and it's a bad name to for the activity. What you want to do is
collaborate with the society and the industrial part of society is an
important part and then how to do that smoothly and what I inherited. And
also mike kosanovic, my counterparts, they were messes on that front
frankly. So what happened was that he and I and steve Zylstra representing
industry got together, the three of us with a lot of support but the three
of us had to carry the ball and changed the intellectual property
templates for the university and how to get after things make up someone
kind of agreement for most cases. And yes you might have meant Gatorade
but make that the exception and not the dominant thing. Most university
haven't figured this out yet. They still think every contract should be
written as if it's going to be a Gatorade but it isn't. And so you write
them so that if that happens you go in a different realm but otherwise you
don't let it mess up ordinary business. So that was a statewide effort
that I was pretty proud of. Conrad with kosanovic who he came from the
biomedical side. I came from the I. T. Side. Those are the two great
subjects of intellectual property in our generation. So between as we
covered the state and steve's astra in the middle and steve became a good
friend from that we were ordered to do that by the regions. And this
reminded me of the bear rabbit story because that's uh, because of the
kerfuffle we had, that was a briar patch I wanted to land in, which would
have been hard to push on myself or for kosanovic either ah Mike was
pretty irascible, but I liked it. And we did a lot of things together. We
would meet it, see what's the town between here and Tucson? We'd meet
there anyway. Yeah, casa grande. So it was a neutral site. I thought that
was hilarious. But
anyway, frequently the engineers were our cat paws because they always
wanted to work together anyway because engineers do. And so okay, we'd go
meet together and things would happen. But this, this i p thing, The
electoral property thing was was really important and that would prevent
future disturbances of the kind of, we each suffered at about the same
time.
Yeah. And it's not very much money in the scheme of things, but it looks
like a lot now, Conrad knows me. So he knows that well, what he didn't
know is that I inherited an office that was in the red ink at the time.
But what he does know is that I'm pretty careful and so we actually have
the money to cover that kerfuffle all by ourselves. We don't have to go to
the regions are somewhere. And also my successor got two or 3 million that
, that we had stacked up, John Fink. So we we put that on a on a reel
reasonable basis so that we weren't subject to these winds of change. One
of the problems, this always sounds simpler than it is. Um The industry is
quick and so you either protect the property today or forget it because
tomorrow somebody else will have it. Anyway, biomedical, the opposite
glacial decades drugs just think of how long it takes to get a drug out.
And that's the forte. So there were real reasons why the two universities
had a different view of this because of their the focus of their expertise.
And I know each had some of the other but but in large that's the case
and those are the two major areas of industry university collaboration. If
you look at it carefully across the country almost nobody does this very
well I should say. And so S. U. Tries hard and with Hayden that he was
really good at it and Crow knows how to do this and I haven't kept up with
that part of the issue to know whether the people he's appointed have been
good at that or not. But they probably are Sky Song near where I live.
Looks like it's doing pretty well. The the thing about tech transfer,
what's going on a little secret here. Ah Marigold the psychologist went
with me to a meeting once where they talked about tech transfer and the
guy was whoever this was. I'm, I'm glad to say. I don't remember. He said
We're doing great. We've hired 20 people.
Merkel says, so what okay,
You've spent a lot and plan to do so for the foreseeable future. And so
you have to really look at net. That's what I'm getting at here in tech
transfer. Net, gross is great. But if you spend a million to get half a
million and then you only talk about the half a million. This is to be
fraud to tell you the truth to look at it and that, you know, crow knows
this, but I don't know who he is appointed for this. Thanks. We had the
Alpacas cancer. It was, it was a good guy. And we changed the name of that
to tech transfer sounds like a linear process, which certainly is not
wanting to get into it all is that I consulted with Utah, especially with
Lockheed California for a quarter of a century and others. So my people
went to industry for a reason. But we called it with Parks Canada. We
changed the name to technology collaborations
because it's all got a lot of feedback loops. You don't just do something
in this building and put on a shelf and then intel wants it. That's
ancient thinking. Even Vannevar Bush has started all this, didn't do that
in the 1940s. You know better than that when he found at Raytheon it is a
complex interwoven process where university of people have to work with
the industry people. And I did that first hand and second hand as a
faculty member and then later on. So it's a lot more complicated. It isn't
a linear process that I could just do something in a box and toss it over
the wall. That doesn't work. We're public universities all but one year in
my whole career which is a long one now have been at public universities.
All right that means something that means that we are responsible in some
way or another to the public. So you were one of my great inheritances.
Although I'm proud to say that we've been advanced a lot that you lead.
So why don't you talk something about that? The tv the all the rest of
that the issue investigates this all goes to your leadership and letting
people use the talents they have and providing um
the amount of support that's needed to get some things done because of
course you need some resources to do certain items. We didn't have a lot
of resources but we made the most of what we had under bob Barton Hill's
tenure as vice president for research at A. S. U. We really became known
across the United States as having one of the best university
communication university research communication programs. We were the envy
of universities across the country and that we put the word out of what
research was going on at A. S. U. Imprint through a. S. U. Research
magazine which became recognized and was copied by lots of places. But we
were one of the very first universities to take it to television. It
helped to have television station on Campus K. 80 but that had to be
funded. And so we had a S. U. Research review which aired three times a
year. So it was a television version of our magazine. We also were one of
the very first websites at the university as the internet was really
starting to take off. So we were communicating with the general public
through print through television through the internet And I think
what I'm most proud of and I know you helped get started was our special
magazine for kids. We were the only university in the United States, the
United States to do a science magazine for Children called chain reaction.
And you were the one that helped get that started because we had done the
whole university committee thing and we met with faculty and we wanted
their input. People basically told us it was the dumbest idea I've ever
heard of. Why would you want to write for kids about science from the
university? It's not your job. And I really believed in this magazine and
bob Barnhill. I said let us do one. I don't know if you remember that
conversation. We were going to do one and we ended up having 50,000
readers in all 50 states in 14 countries And the magazine went for about
12 years. It's it's hasn't been supported since recently, but that was a
great achievement. So we had not only a three pronged approach to
communicating, but we had four. We we were doing educational outreach as
well and that was all because you gave us the thumbs up to give it a try.
Yeah, well a lot of people have ideas but they never get to be
implemented, they don't get the chance to do it. That's what you said
about this place were allowed to you have been allowed to do innovative
things and but that that came right from you. Yeah, chain reaction now. So
now you have to have to go way, way back. So I'm a little kid growing up
in Kansas, this is pre tv only emeritus folks to understand that. Uh so I
have listened to radio in the summer, the nearest baseball team, there
were no other sports broadcast. What is the ST louis? Cardinals All right
, ST louis Cardinals had the best farm system in the world. Now, what is
the farm system? That means you develop young players and bring them up.
Okay. Chain reaction. Why do we wait until people? Uh I mean it's it's a
good idea to educate growing up people, but it is a winner to educate
little people. So when they grow up it's like learning a foreign language
, it's a lot easier when little kids. So the farm system, that's actually
the analogy that I thought were for chain reaction is
we go beyond and we go back to the source young people. What was your
connection with the Unabomber? The the thing is that he was a
mathematician, pure mathematician, complex analysis, precise subject that
he was in and the university of Utah has the real hot shots in that. And
he was in the west in the sparsely populated part of the west. So he would
have known about them. And I think he's even been the university of Utah a
couple of times because there was connections with Berkeley which is where
he was an assistant professor. They talked about him being a genius. But I
would say that remained to be shown. But anyway what he didn't like i in
in thinking about whether I would mention that here today, I looked him up
last night on the web and I looked up the letter he sent to David partner
was an early computer scientist. And it and it genius didn't write that
letter either. And he resented computer scientists because of the
technology they brought ah he would especially resent a mathematician who
turned computer scientists or somewhat and you know a lot about the
university of Utah and and the C. A. G. D. That we started there was was a
cross disciplinary thing. So he would have heard all about that. And so
that has to be what the connection is as as best I can make out. And it
was pretty clear what kind of people he was interested in and pretty clear
where he was. You know, generally 1996 or so. I told Sydney I should
mention Cindy Ryan who was with me both in computer science and research
office. I told Cindy to be careful about the packages that she opened to
make sure they looked okay one Friday night and this is a real somber
thing. One friday night, the FBI calls me up and says they've just got the
even bomber and I'm pretty high up on the list of next things. This has
not been stated publicly before. But a few people know about this. So that
was much more answers than anybody deserved. And that made things like
finances really trivial.
That's just money we can create more of that.
Well, you had a chance to touch on a lot of different achievements at
different levels in your career and the department as a VP here at A S. U.
This is always a tough question. Is there anything that um, stands out in
your mind as the most notable achievement or something you're most proud
of achieving in the department or as VP. Anything that's up and above. Um
, all the other little things, something that's most notable in your mind.
There's there's two things I would give. One that I find the most notable
and one that other people would find the most notable do the easy one
first. The other people part is the Research One status because that's a
big deal. You only get there once hopefully and that lets you go backwards
and the issue has not done that, they only get there once. But what I
liked the most, this was true at the department level, it's true at the VP
level, it was true in my life position. I have to hear when I went to be
the Vice President, oh, Vice Chancellor for Research, it was called the
University of Kansas was that I was able to form teams of people that
we're able to do a lot more than they could do by themselves. That was my
key thing. So it was as a coach in that sense, this is a hands on coach
because nobody wants to work with somebody else's less, trouble to do it
yourself. But if there's a competitive advantage to working with somebody
else and you can make that a true fact as my texas friends call it then
that then you've achieved something. And so now we're back to my
undergraduate minor of Sociology, you see, so you have to, you have to
have the technical side to put technical collaborations together, but then
you have to know something about how to put together teams, you have to
know how to spot talent in the first place And Roland Hayden was really
good at that. I didn't learn from me, even though I knew that myself and
we haven't talked about this personal side, but one of my big things that
Utah and Arizona state was youth soccer and then I also played soccer
myself. Soccer players have a certain mentality. They don't arbitrarily
kick people, but they don't get knocked off the wall themselves either.
There's one whole thing about an issue that I forgot to mention earlier,
I should throw this in here. It was kind of, it was when I was the chair
of Computer Science, but it was bridging step two when before I became the
vice president for research and that was the management development group.
Ah let's see who were the folks there, Susan Courtney and Janice read
were the ones that I actually saw and they had this Thing for the chairs
and the chairs would be of the university, there were about 60 at the time
, they would have tea and nice stuff. Uh And then I come along and I say,
why don't we organize ourselves so that we can bring in speakers and learn
more how to be a chair and talk with each other about our our experiences.
And so I got kind of the honorific title of chair of the chairs, which
sounds like a redundancy. But anyway,
that was really great. One of my favorite stories about that is that these
are early days for the management development program. They were trying to
find their way and and then as now computers didn't always work. And so
they're trying to set the initial database and having a hard time and and
this kind of red nose. I do listen. And so okay, I'm chairman of the
computer science department and we actually know about databases. So we
took that on for him. Okay. There was a little discussion in the sort of
in the corridors about should directors be in this group? There were 40 of
them or 60 chairs. You know, there's always this purity of something going
on. So
uh we took over the database and there were 100 people enrolled. That is
all the chairs and all the directors. And there was never a murmur about
this because there were no rules. And so I was I was kind of pleased with
getting that set up that way. Peter crouch, followed me in that position
later on. Do you have that on your business card, chair of chairs? No,
that's why that's why I did remember to put it in right away, but that
would have made a good one. That's a good one. Yeah. Because that was
really important is the sort of thing that isn't really noticed except by
the people involved. And then they modeled using that as a model. They got
things for associate deans and other other groups of folks later on. But
again, this is a place that lets people do stuff so nobody told me I
couldn't do that. So we did it and it has been successful I think ever
since. Well I was chair so you could share a lot of stuff. Chair of the
Council on Research policy and Graduate Education and that was helpful to
A. S. U. And it was fun for me. And again I had a sort of a group that did
tea parties and I got them too do things that were relevant. Not today's
kind of tea party. No no this is a little lower case tea party you know
this is something different but folks that sort of sat around academically
and which is alright but I like action. And so we managed to again get
sort of a strategic plan of Vice President for research. There's one group
I worked with ever since I was at A S. U. Called the Council of Scientific
Society presidents in Washington, D. C. And at their invitation I led a
group of six or 7 vice president for research to that. And they they still
celebrate that because that was a lot of firepower in one place. Alvin
quorum at the University of Washington who visited a issue Alvin quorum
was so impressed because Cindy of course got it set up so that his visit
we could beat in the football stadium some sweet and he said I couldn't do
this at you were you the vice president? Vice president and chair of
charity with the Vice president. Vice president. It seems to happen. We
have lots of titles. Well when you're with people that want to do
something and nobody has, has had the gumption to or the vision whichever
too do it, you know, to give them some chance to exert leadership and it's
like like you with your chain reaction, others people really want to do
something. But if they haven't quite had the right tools for the right
setting and you give it to them, not only well they're grateful of course
, but they do a heck of a job. And I mean like with your magazine, these
things outstripped, what you yourself know about, what you know about is
that you sort of mathematically change the slope, change the vector in a
positive way and then they take over he gets things happen.
One thing we haven't covered here is that in 2005
I came back Arizona state for a wild with President Michael Crow and Vice
President of Research, john Fink wanted me to help them with decision
theater. Decision theater is a direct outgrowth of computer aided
geometric design in the sense that it's the high level graphics
implementation of things that we started and still do. And in between
there was an organization called acronym prism partner for research and
stereo graphic modeling That I formed with five or 16. Now forming
anything with five or 16 is not so bad. And so we were able to, you know,
I'll leave one out of course, but Craig and Bill and Engineering, Peter
Crouch, that would have been john meunier Fine arts, a couple of others
don't be insulted. Uh all came together and the idea was that they would
put up some faculty time, some cash depending on what they could do. And
the research office did the same thing. We put together this, this major
collaboration on the campus and then against the decision theater came out
of that because uh now President Michael Crow at that when I was in the
research office, Milk Glick brought him in as a consultant. He was the
vice provost at Columbia University and he wanted to come in and so I've
had mentors and have been mentored many people and they can be younger.
And Michael Crowe was one of my mentors at that time because I learned how
to go for bigger things from Michael Crowe, as you would guess from his
own track record, you mentioned that brain mapping maybe because that was
a collaboration between the issue and barrels barrels hospitals and a lot
of those big collaborations hadn't happened yet. That was kind of new,
wasn't it? Yeah, that was a new thing and that actually went back to my
computer aided geometric design days because my research group Conrad
knows this because he interviewed us ah what got together with eric
Raymond at barrels and Brain mapping was an idea as early as 19, late
1970s, right after graphics have been invented. But it gives you a real
advantage if you can map both the, the geometry and the functionality of
the brain and our, our high powered mathematics coupled with graphics help
them do that. So the medical folks, Rheiman for instance had data. But now
what and so what we did was with Gerald Faran and others. I was able to
make that. So you had equations and formulas for these things and you
could calculate the stuff I should mention. Gerald Faron if I didn't as a
key person in that collaboration, which still goes on today. I still see
rhyming in the newspapers today. So that hasn't gone away. All right. A
couple other folks I want to mention Richard. Lovelace uh, partnership
that continues to this day actually. I helped bring James Burke from the
campus, gave a lecture. Famous fellow from England and Richard just had
the right idea about things. He understood the fine arts. He understood
technology too. But he understood the fine arts and so, mm hmm, you could
really do, do nice work with Richard. Let me talk a little bit about that
program. That was incredibly unique. The aim program. Mm hmm engineering.
Yeah, he, uh, that was unusual. So what did he do? What part of it was
that he needed some computer science expertise in his graduate students in
fine arts. And so I think what he did was he traded with Dave Ferry in
electrical engineering ah and the deal was that Harry would put up the
students the money for the students and then they would in part helped
ferry with his projects, visualize things and you know, make them so they
were beyond engineering standards met in quality of presentation. But then
Richard Lovell's then got some of the time of the students to, to do the
projects they had, they choreographed dances and things like that. I went
to these uh, these various events and they were and Richard just high
class guy and still is works in in the issue of Meritus college and so on.
Well you've had a chance to be a mentor to a lot of students in your
career at different universities, including here at the issue and mentor
to people like myself and other staff members and so on. Now is your time
to be the sage and the wise mentor. Again, higher education is facing a
lot of challenges financially. Of course, it's, it's tough tough time to
try and go to college for a lot of young young people. What kind of advice
would you give young people today in how to choose the college they want
to go to and and how to decide on a career. This is a father's advice to.
But um, the, one of the things that is really important and I think I
sort of did this, but it wasn't because anybody said it. So I'd rather say
it and have people know this upfront is go for quality. Quality is really
important and the trouble is it's expensive and it's hard to get and so
especially when budgets are bad, they're always bad when they're really
bad. Like right now quality can fall by the wayside. Don't let it go for
quality.
That's that's the most important thing. And then the rest of the means of
achieving that like flexibility, be as flexible as you can. I like to have
a major of mathematics and a minor of sociology because that was those are
pretty different things and I think that that's a good idea. You never can
tell will come up the principal thing is to go for quality then be
flexible and and of course again implementation but put yourself into
situations where you're going to get that possibility. So for instance,
before I went to graduate school, I traveled at my own expense to three
universities to see who I work with and what I thought of them and two of
them I didn't like. So I went to Wisconsin, we did like every student
should do this, You don't have to get your way, paid everything, get there
, find out who you work with and whether you like the overall situation
I'm asking was pretty cold, but I didn't figure that in, but it was worth
it because of the training got there and my advisor was somebody let me do
things. I'm big on being led to do things and I'm letting other people do
that. So I think quality, you know um one of the things that one of the
greatest gifts that I got here at A. S. U. Was was see I was here 11 years
and then one later but 11 years and I went to commencement in 22 times and
most of those are like decor and he always gives the same commencement
address and it is wonderful and it is help others keep learning and then
he dresses it up with a lot about that class. Those are good by words.
Help others is a good thing to do. I must mentor a couple 100 people these
days. And that that has not gone down because everyone wants to be a vice
president or a dean of engineering or something. And so they called me up
and I talked with him about especially especially women because I've
implemented a lot of women in these fields where they are very pretty
sparse. And then the other one keep learning well you need to learn
something new if you have something to say so you got to keep up on what's
what's going on, which is why I've been delighted to represent and I'm a
start representing the council time to society presidents in D. C. As well.
Again the with phoenix as a base because we always, we're going to come
back here. I always went and we kept kept up for things here all during
the decade. We were away at the University of Kansas and then at the
university of texas
we've had, you had a chance to talk about a lot of different people and
different connections with a issue so far. Maybe you can tell us a little
bit more about some of the people here that had the greatest impact on you.
You've already mentioned Roland Hayden and Milton Glick and if you want
to go into a little more detail on them or some of the other folks that
you worked with. The 1% should really emphasize is Cindy Ryan. Um, and I
should go back a little bit. My parents were were like Cindy, they were
staff, not faculty at the University of Kansas all those years, 70 years
between. So I really understood that side of things better than any other.
And Cindy was was really useful a year after I came here in computer
science. We lured her over there from mathematics were not above that as
well. And so then she went with me of course to the research office and
she had an idea that turned out to be really really quite clever. She two
is good at understanding talent or it's like I suppose. But anyway on the
positive side, she said you got to go to D. C. And do some things in your
keep what you're doing for the issue but do that and so I don't know, I
take good advice where I can get it and so I started doing that and turns
out I'm good at that. And so in this book about competitive is not gonna
make research actually spread the A. S. U. Research story. Yeah, in a sort
of methodological way that is if, if you, the other universities that we
were talking with, if you set up a strategic plan and keep these points in
mind, you can do a lot better too. You can also develop big teams at the
university of Kansas where I went back after I was here ah we won both and
injuring research center and a science and technology center. Those are
the biggest things there are at the National Science Foundation and only
the U. Of A. And Berkeley had them at the same had both those things when
K. U. Which is a really small university compared to A S. You had them.
The other folks here. I got my little list because like in the Mikado and
it's it's not little and I'll leave out some people and don't be mad. Just
maybe you'll be glad music is not going to play like at the Oscars here so
you can there you go, okay well in the administration when I was in the
research office Brent, Brown was a tremendous help to me Because I spent
22 years in Utah and just loved it. My kids are Utah two kids and I met
marigold there. So hey, what else is there? Uh, and Brent was just like
all the good old boys that I worked with really well at the University of
Utah, like Brent real well. And also, you know, I'm a sports guy and I
figured anybody could get along with the bid wells was a guy to imitate
and to get to know, you know, the cardinals from Brown University vice
president for university relations. That's right at the time. Thank you.
So then one other thing with him before he escapes, he was a great friend
as well as a great mentor and, and I really learned how to be a vice
president from him. The Glick stir moves so fast it's hard to see what
he's up to but, but Brent, you know, you could actually keep up with. And
uh, so anyway, he had a fellow named frank hidalgo in his office and I
have to tell this little story and has something to do with what I do
these days too. So I'm up for something. I don't remember what exactly and
frank addario says you want this and I said, yep. And so frank has just a
short sentence wasn't like Brent more like others short sentence, which
you have to take in the context of the time. So this is about the 1980s,
he says Frank says I will get the brothers out.
So okay, that was it. Into a conversation. He goes away, That's it then. I
don't know what happened, but I got it
I guess. Well, they had some help, but pretty sure. But anyway, I thought
that was that was a nice way to put it. Now. Some other folks, Peter
Crouch is important. We have the same background applied mathematics and
then in this case applied to electoral engineering. In my case applied to
computer science. So we understand each other really well. And I was chair
of the search committee that ended up with with him of course, uh click
appointed him from a couple of candidates. And so along along many years
with with Peter, when I came back in 2000 and five, he was involved in
that, along with john Fink and Gary Crayon Bill, as well as the rest of
the Dean's Carrie Crandall had to associate Deans Gretchen. But I and
Wendy Wilkins, who have become famous in their own right. And a couple of
years ago we met with them when they were at the University of north texas
President and vice president, respectively.
And that has to do with Sagna's, which we'll get into in a minute. But
yeah, but it was some, some great folks and again, they were folks that
we're getting to do things are out of the norm in my opinion.
Oh, over your years, you've been on the outside looking in, you've been on
the inside looking out, you've been integral in the growth of the
university and now retired and can see things that are happening. And some
of the things that you started, this seems like a ah, masters
comprehensive exam question. Maybe in 100 words or less, can you tell us
how issue has changed the time you arrived and tell you to, to your left?
So that's right. The easiest thing is to start with the city of Tempe
itself because when I came, They frankly looked a bit like a dive right
around the university in 1986. And I thought, you know, I came from
straightly Salt Lake city. So I thought that was kind of down in the dumps
and the university was harder to get my, put my finger on it. But again, I
thought it was a promising adolescent that sounds like I'm speaking down.
But it isn't because remember I've been at Kansas, Wisconsin and Utah,
those are mature universities, very mature universities of varying sizes.
Uh, Wisconsin is one of the best in the nation, always has been. So part
of it was just to see what to make of this. But the thing is, it had lots
of promise, but promises good. Sometimes you have to realize it. And so
really, I, I think starting with maybe with atlantic or maybe with milk
but certainly the combination is when things really picked up on in the
arenas that I know about which is research and and training in particular
. I really got to do much, much bigger things, really set their sights
high and I know Michael Crowe has had a great influence as president but
he had a great influence as a consultant. two milk click intervene as well.
So we were, we tried for lots of bigger things and people didn't get
bumped off if they didn't make it either. I mean, you know, you could try
and you don't have to always succeed, but as long as the vector was was
going forward. So Crows Vision of the American University is an excellent
one. This next question. Looking at the overall view of Arizona State
University, what do you think has been the most interesting achievements
that the universities had here in the last decade and maybe even looking
ahead to the future because you always, you, you were the man that took
the long view the, the thing that America and I both like best. This will
get to that answer. I like best about Arizona State University and which
is if not unique, nearly unique at Arizona State University is that people
are allowed to try stuff that is completely different.
Okay, I come to administration from a faculty position in Utah and a chair
is a logical next step. It is not the logical next step to become a vice
president. Marigold comes from being a faculty member of Utah and starts
doing things with american indians in science and technology, science and
engineering, that is a major step. Not many universities will let you have
the freedom to try these things. Now, of course you want to be successful.
That's part of trying. But this is the best thing about Arizona State
University and I think it's the best thing to this day and I don't know
where it comes from, but it's part of the ether, it's in the ether here
Conrad that here people can try to do things that are different and if
they're successful then what a deal I should point out on success that I
view my career as occasionally having pauses between successes, but I
don't do failure. Okay, another question, dealings with the regions, if
you have any notice there about the skewed towards the University of
Arizona with the region's well sure, I mean, you have to be blind not to
notice that at the time, I don't know if that's improved or not, but
some of the region's tried to be fair wherever they were from from and
Eddie basha stands out in my mind as, as a region that tried to be fair
and Rudy Campbell also ah the,
I think getting into it all, but when I talk about how to do research
universities, I don't just use my own university as an example, Although
that's the ones I know the best and I include them but not just them. And
so one of the things that I've always done is included the U. Of A. And so
I studied up on on what they had done And their research started in 59
really with astronomy And it was the other one.
And the indians, what's that called? Anthropology? The two A's. Because
those were natural advantages to use clark curs phrase use your natural
advantages that they had those. And President Harvill at that time did
that. And they've developed amazingly well. So I was used the three
universities I've been at a lot. Plus the U. Of A. As my exemplars of
different ways to achieve spectacular results. Now the trouble in this
state has always been not news to anybody in this room. This thing before
my time of us trying to keep this from being a university. Ah that's kind
of a civil war like thing. No. So I don't know if you ever get over that.
To tell you the truth. It's such a bad thing to do in the first place in
Kansas. We have rivalries with Kansas state, but it's football and stuff
like that. We don't really care now with Missouri. It's different. That's
the real civil war. So I can kind of you know that's a stretched analogy
but you made me a bad error back there trying to push that tied back given
the demographics here. I don't know how you ever get get past that but you
can do it locally like I did with kosanovic where I refused to put up with
with dichotomies and in Kansas I did that really well because there I was
the alpha dog university and so K. State and Wichita State we're delighted
to join K. U. And we did things as a troika the three of us a lot. The
three VPs research. I would have done it here if I could have. Uh huh. But
couldn't quite pull that off because we we weren't the the upper dog. Well
the day issue has improved faster much faster but I forgot to get into
that. There was one year right after I went to Kansas a couple of years
when the greater growth rate of increase of research expenditures was a S
. U. Was number one in the country and K. U. Was second. And of course I
was doubly proud of that because I had a part of a major role in each of
those things. So really when you're comparing university's the thing to
look at this is a mathematical statement but a mild one is you have to
look at the rate of increase the history is what it is. And so okay that's
good for orientation but nothing else but the rate of growth is what
matters. And that's what I've always emphasized when I talk about these uh
these places,
one thing in D. C. That just happened, I have to throw this in somewhere.
This will do miracles. Just got a presidential award in january and I was
written up in the Emeritus College. There are very few of these and it was
acronym pays meme presidential Award for Excellence in Science.
Mathematics engineering mentoring mentoring is now at the end of that They
had four groups and 11 individuals that got it for that year. And so that
was based on her work work at University of Kansas after we left here and
at her work here at Arizona State University and not on work before that
because before that she was the fact that ever so it's her work on getting
american indians into science and engineering when that. She is now a
national leader and I even carry a spear for once in a while. You haven't
come to that. But what I'm doing now is we always we're going to come back
to Arizona. And so we kept the house here. You know, we're going for a
decade. Always planned to come back. So we are back but we're going a lot
and I help Sagna's which mary will help start Sagna's Society for
advancement of chicanos and native americans in science 38 years old and I
am their first vice president and in this case for science policy and
strategic initiatives. I love strategic initiative that's from milk like
that was the first title I had here was researching that anyway. And so I
opened A D. C. Office for him already which is what their version of
research one is. That's what they'll remember before. But what's important
is that I have gotten them so they are known in the nation's capital.
And again it's a spin off of the work here and it started here with a nasa
program acronym Aztec A. I. S. T. E. C. American indian science and
technology engineering consortium. And there was a issue university of
Washington. Somebody else like that Haskell indian nations university
which is in Lawrence Kansas and Salish kootenai and a third. And so the
whole story on that is lata cora president gets something joined this
thing reforming called Aztec three Big Universities Majority Universities
, three Tribal Colleges. Okay now and this will tell you more about
central administration than you want. But he pushes on the milk, click
okay now the slickster always alert. He says okay Barnhill. And so because
you do ahead marigold so between us mary goldeneye uh in that situation
equaled one president because we would often did this and helped lead that
consortium that led to a lot of other things too including this basement
thing but that was started here at at A. S. U. And so I actually really
really deserves a lot of credit for that. So you never stop learning and
you're still haven't stopped learning and then we have this word retiree.
Obviously you're not just sitting around, you're still doing things,
what's occupying your time as a retiree? I've been the busiest I've ever
been in my life.
Well, first of all, retirement is a fungible term these years. Uh and it
doesn't mean the same thing as as it might, there was dead for instance to
my parents,
it's, it's something pretty much different. So at issue itself, the soon
as I was back here, Elmer Gooding learned about that and so I was elected
to the S. U. R. A, what's that called? Board of directors and then as soon
as that term ends, uh Elmer still around or somebody maybe it's Lynn
Gordon? And so it was, it was like going, it was like no break in here and
then there's three years that have just started with the issue Emeritus
College Council. So we're helping them now with the issue or a, I was
privileged the middle year of the three to help put on that retirees day,
which is, which is the big event really of that organization. Although I
realized that there are lots of other things like this series with the
College MEREDITH College Council. Well both those organizations are
imitated widely across the country and many places would like to imitate
them. So I got questions even at Utah where I go back often about how one
or the other of a S. U. R. A. Or the issue emeritus College, how are they
set up with the view to where they want to do the same thing. What are you
doing for fun? What do I do for fun? Well that ties in with with the, the
issue of Meritus College because they had me write book reviews. Now
writing book reviews is not fun, but reading the books is, and so I read
about 100 50 books a year now that I don't have to do other things and I'm
pretty omnivorous. I mean, as long as there's quality, we're back to that
again. And so I've discovered the author Donald leon for instance and she
writes elegant things about venice. Okay, so that's quality. Jonathan
Yardley writes reviews for the Washington post. Those are always of high
quality and we appear to be exactly the same age. That's one of the
interesting things about writing book reviews for a group that's a certain
age is that you can rely on their knowing what Sputnik means. For instance
, I was a freshman in college and then program the first computer at the
university of Kansas, one of the first people to do that. That was the
next year after Sputnik, that means something to my generation and nothing
to say my Children's generation. Yeah, so read all the time. Marigold is
active as you can imagine With this pavement award. She gets an invitation
every week to go do something and she's something like the 13th and the
17th American Indian to get a PhD in this nation and she's still alive. So
you know, this is actually an appalling statistic, but she was the first
California reservation indian to go to university and she got a PhD so she
didn't just go, but she was in the first class at UC riverside and then at
U C L A for a PhD and we met at the university of Utah where we were both
high powered faculty folks,
she was in psychology and I was in mathematics, we're both mildly
competitive. So that's, that's always kind of abusing one of the things
that came up there, this, it's kind of a cool story, prenuptial agreements
for middle aged folks, okay. She says I couldn't possibly marry, marry
anybody that can't play tennis. And so I did what I always do,
mathematicians do this, I go off for a day and I think about it, then I
come back to the counter proposal. I said what a good idea. And of course
you'll learn to play soccer now she about hits the ceiling. She says what
middle aged can't do that, blah blah blah. But then when mary was a very
big on equity we both are, she then she thinks about it, she says, well
actually he can say the same thing about learning to play tennis. So we
each got the other coach, You got me her tennis coach and I learned to
play tennis and it doubles anybody within 20 years of us, we could beat
after a while because soccer players can get to the ball. And then uh, we
formed correct teams that Utah and did some of that here in Tempe as well.
And for a few years even my son john and the three of us got to play on
the same team. That was magic. There aren't very many years about that and
I have to throw in one story of that type. I love soccer stories the in
soccer. So this, this is a 10 piece story. So we're playing down here in
Kaunas park and, and it's a sunday and it's, it's a more or less friendly
game friendly like retirement is not quite the word to use for soccer, but
okay. As friendly as it gets on a sunday and son john sends a long ball
learning the game and I get it. Okay. And something happens 30 minutes
later, Soccer games for 90 minutes, 30 minutes later, another long ball.
Very same good ball. I don't get it. He says shots across the field now
is where you can tell it's friendly so everybody can hear this is, hey,
you didn't get that, which is kind of obvious. And he says, how come old
age And he says in 30 minutes. Well,
if you've played a sport, it actually is in 30 minutes because your legs
have been left somewhere else. Well
anyway, so again, that was some of the happy happy times. Yeah. I don't
still play soccer. Of course you have to give these things up someday. But
we walk a couple of hours every day and keep track of it. And and again we
go to Dc off. Where do you see? About a month? About a week? A month
bought a condiment in Arlington to make that easy and help and others.
Okay. Is there anything else that areas maybe we haven't covered that? You
just want to have a final comment on. It's been a real pleasure talking to
you today. Well it always is the, I wanna talk a little bit about, I
mentioned earlier that with my parents and then with Mario and I going
back to. Kay you for a while. We had our family has 100 years of service
to the university of Kansas. Well what about Arizona State University?
Okay. This for my family was in Utah as well was a completely new venture
because my family all grew up in Kansas and we're educators but at not at
higher education levels. Long history in Kansas. So what's this western
business? Ah Well I really fell in love with the desert. The high desert
first in Utah and then the low desert here and there is a state university
we now have about a quarter of a century of service. And moreover. Um This
is where the son john got his degree in G. I. S. Geographic information
systems. Favorite professor Pat go bury insists I always tell her that
when I was here and I do and you know, we went back to school like it
works, works there and my daughter has an S. U. History. This is something
slightly different then as she went here for a semester and got all A's
and then decided she needed to find herself. And it turned out she was
tired of desert. I love it. But she so she went to Seattle and eventually
got an undergraduate degree at the University of Washington and they got a
PhD at the University of Hawaii. I guess Guam's next. But I don't know a
lot of water. No, what's next is cal poly and that's where she is now in
san luis Obispo. But one of my points to that story is that she would be
viewed as bringing down a sus graduation rate because she was here for a
semester and then didn't graduate here even though she got a PhD someplace
else and got other degrees along the way. So those metrics are lousy
unless they really attract people and a. S. You and no one else should put
up with them. Best sidebar. Main thing is we really enjoyed it here and
and and we still do and this is our base. And so any of these things, all
the retirements fungible, I have a cardinal rule is and that is that I'm
gonna use phoenix as my base. Always. So this is The default places where
we are, this is where we have lots of friends, we have lots of rooms
everywhere, but this is where we have the ones we've kept up with for
since 86, we when we came here and in fact we knew a lot of people before
that Joaquin Gusteau's tried to hire me in the mathematics department in
the seventies, in fact. Um but then I was just getting into computer
graphics so it wasn't the time to to go somewhere else. That was a career
changing activity there. But this issue is a great place to be. Don't,
never, never forget site of that because people will let you let you try
to do things forget state politics, national politics or the Arizona State
University itself is a truly great place to be. And I sometimes think that
the beauty of its natural beauty coincides with the beauty of letting
people letting people do things
well, it's been a pleasure this morning. Dr Barnhill, great to see you.
Good luck, Terrific. Thankyou