today is March 16th 2000 and 16 were conducting an interview for the
Arizona State University retirees association video history project. We're
located today in the issue community service building. My name is hans van
de mars. I'm a professor of physical education. The technical support
staff today includes john McIntosh on camera, linda vance coy for audio
and director and David shots lee as the chair of the video history project.
Could you please introduce yourself? Okay, I'm Charles B. Chuck Corbin.
When I retired in 2005 I was a professor of exercise and wellness at the
ASU. Polytechnic campus. Okay to begin with, can you let our viewers know
a little bit about your early life where you were born and raised your
spouse and your family. Sure my grandparents were from Ohio, my
grandfather was a grocer. My other grandfather was a civil engineer for
the B and O. Railroad. So my mom and dad, I grew up in Ohio, I went to
Miami University and my dad was in the Navy. And so my brothers and I
older brother Don and younger brother, David grew up for the 1st 10 years
of our life in Delta. Ohio. My dad got out of the Navy and uh came back uh
and started a business of pay pinball slot machines, jukeboxes which were
all legal and it's called the Delta music and novelty company in Delta.
Ohio. Unfortunately he bought a bunch of new machines and uh they became
illegal overnight and so he decided he'd go to law school and you know,
correct things. So he started in law school at the University of Toledo in
one summer in 1952
he decided he would go to the University of Arizona and pick up a couple
of law classes that he needed to finish his law degree. We all thought we
were going to go back home. I was a Cleveland indians fan and a
prospective baseball player in my own mind and we never went back. He we
decided to go to Albuquerque and got in marriage students housing. My mom
was already already had teaching credentials and he gave up the law and
gave up all of that, got a teaching degree on the G. I. Bill. And we moved
to a ranch in the middle of New Mexico, 18 miles from nowhere, 60 miles
from Albuquerque. And so we became ranchers and I became a basketball
player and a football player and a baseball player and a very small high
school Went on to the University of New Mexico where I met my wife now of
53 years. I have three sons, all regions graduates to from A. S. U. And
one from the U. Of a one defected on the on us there. But I have four
great fantastic granddaughters all that live within a mile of our house.
So ah we life has strange turns it turns out and for our family it did. We
went from one course to another overnight. And here we are. Very good,
very good. Can you trace your life path through your schooling and the
jobs until you arrived here at Arizona State University? Sure. I, you know
I thought like all of young kids especially somebody grew up playing
baseball all of his life that I was going to be a major leaguer. We all
think that I guess and being in a small high school if you're a boy and
you can walk you know you play every sport they need everybody out there
that you get. So I played all sports. I went to the University of New
Mexico played baseball um turns out a big fish in a small pond, is a small
fish in a big pond and didn't play a lot. But I got to travel and I
actually got to come to a S. U. In 59 60. I was reminiscing with Dave
earlier about playing baseball behind PE West which is a brand new
building back then and and uh admiring the weather because of the wind
blew so much. And in New Mexico from there I got my degree at U. N. M.
Became an elementary PE teacher. I went on the University of Illinois and
got a master's degree and decided maybe I should continue in graduate
school. Got a PhD in health and physical education, health, physical
education and recreation from the University of New Mexico. Uh had a job
as department chair at ST Michael's College in santa fe then two years at
the university of Toledo. Strange how things happen in it. Born in Toledo
raised for first years near there and then taught there for two years,
four years at Texas A&M 11 years at Kansas state where I was department
chair for years in de facto women's athletic director because that was the
seventies and the title nine came along. So I had to merge the men and
women's department And help the women into an athletic program where they
got proper support came to Arizona State in 1982 as a target of
opportunity, higher full professor. And we were charged with trying to
make this one of the best departments in the country and I think we did.
And you were one of the first people that came onto the faculty in right
after I got here as I recall. So, can you talk a little bit more about who
hired you? And I know you mentioned that you came in as a full professor
and maybe talk as well a little bit about what made you choose a issue.
What attracted you to the position? Yeah, it's, it's, it's really a
fabulous story actually, um, page model and a guy that some people around
here might know was my associate dean at Kansas state and he's the guy
that hired me to be chair of the department at Kansas state all those
years ago and page was a little bit overweight and out of shape And the
oldest surviving member of his family as I recall was something like 50
years. He had a family history of hypercholesterolemia and heart disease
and I started a faculty fitness program at Kansas state and paige and his
dean and several, the vice president's got involved with it and we tested
people and uh Page became an avid runner and became extremely fit and uh
it was, it was really a neat thing. He went on to be dean at the
University of Oklahoma. And then came Arizona State as the first is
provost. And then as I call recall executive vice president I think. And
so he decided that he could make an already good department into one of
the best in the country if he uh
could get the right people and he could probably do it cheaper than making
some of the other programs in arts and sciences. Really good. So he made a
commitment. He hired dan Landers to join people like bob can, pen grazie
and chris wells and Bill Stone and others. Um and uh then he hired dan
Landers uh the year before I came and and Jim Skinner and then me and then
people like you and actually we, we actually did make it into one of the
top schools in the country. Uh and I think paige was largely responsible
for that. Although gary cran Bill was the department chair and he
certainly had played a role and was one of the leaders that was already
here. So what positions did you hold? And and how many years were you at
issue? well when I retired I had been here for 24 years, came in In 82. Um
most of my responsibilities were in the graduate area and so as graduate
coordinator, which initially was just with the master's degree because the
doctoral program when I came was to the College of Education. Um Then we
wrote the PhD in exercise science dan Landers was uh largely in charge of
that. But he and Jim Skinner and I worked on developing that, which we
implemented the probably in 83 I would guess then subsequently we, I wrote
with some of the people in the College of Education, a PhD program in
curriculum and instruction and uh we had a physical education
specialization and then exercise and wellness. So we actually had three
PhD programs and we have members of the National Academy of kinesiology
who are graduates from all three of those programs. So you know, I'm
pretty proud of that as you should be. So can you tell me a bit about what
it was like when you first arrived at a issue being a faculty member at
issue at that time In the early 80s. Well
I might back up a little bit before that because when I was playing
baseball or to put it more accurately when I was on the baseball team at
the University of New Mexico because I caught a lot of batting practice
when we traveled, I didn't do a lot of play but I got to travel and we
used to come through here because it was on a state within the skyline
conference. They had been in the border conference before that. And after
I played the both went together in the Western athletic conference before
they came into the pack eight and pac 10 and pac 12 and so forth. At any
rate we drive in here. And So I had seen the campus in 59 and 60 and
always uh you know Bobby Winkles. Baseball teams were so good and we never
beat them. You know this this was the place to be. So when I came back in
82 I hadn't been back, you know in all of those years. And you know the
baseball field that was all behind pe West, you know was gone, the
football field was gone and the marriage student quantity huts were gone
and it just looked um a lot different. But by the time I got here, you
know things had moved toward more like a research university and you
started to see research buildings. But you know the computer building was
commons wasn't here, the rec center wasn't here. Uh you know a lot of
things like that. We're just beginning to uh President nelson was
president of the university when I came. So what was your home department
, your unit like when you arrived?
Mhm. Actually it was called health and physical education and again, a bit
of background there might make sense because I had just come from Kansas
State and while chair there, I had merged the men and women's department,
I had found a home for women's athletics because all of the women's
coaches were faculty members in our department and they were spending more
time coaching than they were teaching and researching. And half of our
faculty were men, faculty who were coaching and spending more time
teaching. So I had gone through years of, you know, extricating all of
this. And then then I came here and I and I saw this program and they had
this program had just kind of moved past some of that, for example,
Recreation in 79 was in the department, but he had moved to college of
public programs, Dance had been in the department and it moved to fine
arts. So in a lot of ways, health and physical education was an incubator
, you know, for other other programs furthermore, many of the faculty
members, uh you know, like an pittman and uh several of the other women's
coaches who were outstanding teens, but they were also members of of the
physical education, faculty ned walk and and uh and fred miller were
faculty members in our department and that wasn't uncommon for people have
tenure and who are coaches, that kind of thing started to change. And by
the time I came here, we were into a science movement. Our field had
evolved from just teaching physical education and the sciences of exercise
physiology, biomechanics, sports psychology were emerging not just here,
but that nationwide in it. So it in some senses that created a dichotomy
between the old and the teaching professions and the new in the science
movement. And so a lot of the young hires were in in the sciences. Uh, so
in answer to that question, things were changing rather dramatically. Um
and things that had been a part of that originally core started to move
off and actually created programs that are still in existence today
throughout the universities.
So who did you report to? Or who was your, your chairman of the department
? Who were the, who was the dean you mentioned was nelson as president.
Yeah. Guido wagon was the dean as I recall. And Gary Granville had just
become a chair. And as you know, Gary went on to become a social dean and
dean and at one point a vice president. Um, and he,
it was a giant in, you know, getting the program to grow and, and uh he
oversaw the development of the doctoral programs and during that time
we also started to develop new specializations that we developed exercise
and wellness, which is the equivalent of teaching physical education, but
not in school, you know, and health clubs and fitness management and that
kind of thing. So we, we saw those new programs, we also saw the emergency
emergence of kinesiology as a scientific discipline and a liberal arts
major that wasn't professional in nature like physical education that you
do or exercise and wellness that I also worked in as as well as as
physical education and as you know, well, physical education moved out to
polytechnic and it's still there. Whereas exercise and wellness alta first
moved to polytechnic and it's now at the downtown campus. So from that
core of physical education that we started and became the number one
program in the United States during those years is now God Segments that
are major programs throughout, not just one campus
campus. So this next question might require extra disk space, but how, how
did Arizona State University change from when you arrive until you retired
? Well, aside from the facilities ah, which have changed dramatically. I
mean if students, even my own graduate students who started back in the
eighties when they come here, you know, they won't recognize, they don't
recognize it. I mean, everything has changed and our programs have moved
like physical education out there. So in some senses for them, there's a
loss of what I call sense of place. You know, you come and you expect it
to be what it was and it's not what it was even if you went where you were
, it's not what it was, but the programs that they were in maybe are in a
different location and they don't have any identification, you know, with
that at all. But at the same time I think that a s you should be proud of
the number of graduates that we've turned out PhD graduates who our leader
in our field all over the world. And I know they're very proud of their
association with A S. U. Right. Uh talk a bit about how your career
progressed or what you remember most about your career at Arizona State
University.
Well, I would have to say that the thing that that the things that I
remember are the outstanding faculty that we were able to bring here and
the fact that we were able to take a leadership role, the graduate
students that we produced who are now leaders uh throughout the country.
But I think also for me, one of the things that I remember the most is the
the leadership role that we had in the fitness movement in the United
States. That includes my own work and the development of conceptual
physical education and the fitness education movement and my partnership
with Bob Penn Grazie, who is my office mate for 25 years. And together we
did considerable research on youth fitness. We were charter members of the
uh Fitness Gram advisory board from the Cooper Institute and uh where we
had a big role in developing the national youth fitness test which is now
part of the presidential youth fitness test program and the fitness
education programs that I developed even before I came to Arizona State
University um expanded and exploded because of the work of bob and my work
and our graduate students. And and I think Arizona state is known very
much for fitness education programs. And I might put in a plug for hans
van Damar sport education because hans is um uh leading proponent of sport
education which is a major program
that has emerged in the United States and the physical education area.
You're too kind. Thank you. So is there a special event or a special for
instance that stands out uh during your tenure here at Arizona State
University. Uh what will you remember most about your a issue career? Well
, you know again I think it goes back to students probably, but maybe one
of the most memorable things is when my third son, our third son, Kathleen
, My wife Kathy and our 3rd son graduated from from Arizona state. Um So
we got them all through And that that was memorable and I think it was
also memorable to me when after doing a a undergraduate degree here and a
doctorate at the University of Georgia and a postdoc at texas and then
being hired and teaching seven years at Yale. Our youngest son moved here
as a professor of psychology at A. S. U. And the psychology department and
for him becoming a co author with me on our successful conceptual or
fitness education book that we use at the college level. Also very
memorable to me is the fact that Greg welcome, who is one of my doctoral
students is a co author of a book and another. Uh um Missouri is the co
author of My Fitness for Life book. And Karyn McConnell, one of our
adoptable students is the co author of our healthcare life book. So those
are all really memorable things to me because this fitness education is
sort of my baby and and my grandkids are the ones that are now taking it
forward and so that's that's that's a good thing. Good, good. So can you
tell me a bit about if there is, if there is one individual or some
individuals who have had the biggest impact on you during your tenure at a
issue before my tenure at A. S. U. Other than you know, my wife who had to
put up with all of this stuff and worked to put me through the graduate
school and having three kids and making $6,000 a year and our first job
and and trying to find money on the couch to to to make it through the the
next thing and you know together, you know we've we've made a good
partnership and and made it a long way. Uh so that and the support of my
kids along the way. But my high school basketball coach, it was a huge
influence because he actually went on to get a PhD at the University of
New Mexico. Got, he and his wife were in the Peace corps and he became a
professor at SAn Diego State University and has authored one of the most
widely used books on school discipline. And I still stay in touch with him
uh, and he's been a huge influence. I can't underestimate
the impact that mary Beth and Page Mahal and had on my life because
without them I wouldn't be here probably. And um, this was a huge move for
us. Good. So I want to get back to some other areas. Where were you
located on the campus when you arrived? Well we were, I was located in PG
West, which is interesting because coming back, but that was that new
building, that brand new edifice, which was the great new basketball
reading. And by then everybody's saying where they're going to tear this
thing down. And I remember it was on the five year plan for removal
starting when I got here and and it's still here. And that was my great
pleasure because we have a new in our faculty basketball program That has
gone on since George and Watson and bill are in and I started that back in
the 80s and every Monday Wednesday and Friday people play basketball. We
don't want pe west to go away because that's a good place to for uh for
these activities. And what was the question? Where were you located? So we
were in in PE west part of the program was over in P. E. East And and I
stayed there until our program moved in 2001. That's the exercise and
wellness and health promotion to the polytechnic campus. And then after I
retired those programs moved downtown. Physical education later moved to
the polytechnic campus. And as you well know, because you coordinate that
program, that's where you are today. So okay. So what was in your
estimation? Really unique and special that made the department outstanding.
I think part of it was that they had a strong nucleus before this
infusion of outside um target of opportunity hires. Because you know, the
people that I've mentioned, I mean they were already established
established and then having a higher administrator willing to commit the
resources and the startup money to to bring in the people to build up the
the research side of the program was significant.
One of the things that has challenged our field. Mhm. As long as I've been
in it and I've done a lot of historical work with it is the
the fact that we are an incubator. So as an area within our field gets
stronger, it wants its independence and it moves here and here and here
dance and so forth. Well that continued during the time that I was here.
And so uh just like there was tension with within these areas like
recreation that move out and so forth. There was a tension between the
science side and the professional side. And once again you see what's
happened now, we have kinesiology and exercise and wellness and health
motion downtown, which is where it should be because of the logical
connection with nutrition. And I helped actually, I wrote the PhD proposal
for that as well. And uh so physical education uh then kind of is in a
separate area. And, and to me in a lot of ways, I have written over the
years about common goals and different roles that we all don't have to do
the same thing. It's important to have common goals, but each can play its
its own role well, somehow together, some of the times these programs
don't always have common goals and so they need to get in places where
they can play their own role. And I think uh probably especially in the
case of physical education for example, this is a good thing. And I think
the other programs belong downtown where there near the med school and the
nursing school and so forth. So I think it's been a good thing,
what what kind of challenges that you encounter over the course of your
career, Financial, administrative,
philosophically, I would say that I already mentioned, you know, I started
out as a pE teacher, elementary pE teacher in Albuquerque for 4000 bucks a
year and 1960. and my first college teaching job I made $6,000. And not
only did we look for money in the couch, as I mentioned, we bought a new
car and we had take it back and get an old used car because we couldn't
make the payments, you know, had a kid coming, but you know, that's not
different than happens for most people and um we've been very fortunate, I
think some other challenges that that we faced is just the general view of
academia towards what we do. Um Physical education is often looked at as a
step child of education and you know, someplace where jocks go to, you
know take basket weaving and easy classes and and trying to ah show the
world that that we are, we are really for real sometimes. Um I felt that
we went overboard, you know, we got approved everybody field, we can be
tougher than we can be as tough as or tougher than anyone else. And I
think that that that creates those two things, you know, the the
perception of always wanting to change the name to something else to make
it seem more academic. I mean what we do is important, it will be and it
always will be and the science bears it out, you know, uh the whole kid
goes to school, the whole person lives life in the brain without a body
that is fit and healthy isn't worth having, right, you know, so, of all of
your accomplishments. I know you touched on some of this earlier, but
perhaps there's something something else that might stand up, what what
gives you the most pride? Um
clearly professionally,
the fitness education movement that others Started back in the 50s and 60s.
But I grabbed onto in 68 with the publication of my concepts of physical
fitness book and the emergence of fitness of education is a Major part of
college experience that 98% of all colleges in the United States have a
fitness education or fitness and wellness class. When I first started that
, I was told that publishers that no book like that would ever be used
Because it was pe and you don't use a book for pe except for pe majors.
Well, it turns out they were wrong. And our book is in the 17th edition,
uh this is an innovation that is have been documented in the literature
and is 98%
involved. It's it's a it's something that I take great pride in and I take
great, great pride in showing the people who said it couldn't be done that.
Indeed it could. And so I would say, you know that, and the fact that we
were able to not only introduce these courses in college for non majors,
but for everybody to learn about fitness and wellness, but also For the
high school, for the middle school and having books and videos and things
for all levels. K through 12 and college. You must wonder what's wrong
with those 2% of the universities that are not requiring those kinds of
experiences. I often do, but then I I wonder also about the universities
that have dropped, not just required programs, but dropped all anything
related, anything related. And I believe that every university should have
a fitness and wellness education or a course and healthy lifestyles to
help students learn how to be healthy and stay healthy and make good
decisions through life? Good. So what is the one single best memory that
you will take with you the rest of the way from your stay and your work
and career at a issue,
I don't know. Um, I guess again, I would, I have to say it was seeing each
of my 18 doctoral students graduate and seeing several of them elected as
you have been into the National Academy of kinesiology, which is a, A
group of about 125 people, an elite academy. And, and to see other of our
doctoral students inducted into that is pretty powerful. Good.
So a young assistant professor who comes into our area today, given your
stature, your experience, your expertise, knowing what higher education is
like today, what advice would you give them? Well, I would say if you
don't have a passion for what you do, do something else because you're
going to have to have some passion. And the reason why I say that is
because it's a moving target. Teaching in college is a moving target. When
I started in 19
60 five, 64 at ST Michael's College in Santa Fe if a person in our area
published something, anything you would move ahead, you know? And then as
things progressed in each job, I happen to like to write, I was good at it.
I'd like to do research, but some didn't. And if you don't, you know, the
old publisher perish. Well it's published in certain journals and then
these journals and then get citations and then get grants and get this.
And I'm not knocking it. I'm saying that's the way it is. And if you're
not able to use your passion to stay current and do whatever is necessary
to hit the moving target, you're not going to be successful because the
target is always moving.
Very good. So since you hung up your spikes as professor, um, what what
what what do you do to keep yourself engaged? Uh, what do you do as a
retiree? Well, I mentioned earlier that we had this faculty and staff noon
hour basketball group that met in In pe west and uh well our son who is a
professor there is taking my place because in 67 because of my shoulder
injury, I couldn't play basketball anymore, although I did make a three
point shot for a free ticket on us airways that in A. S. U. Halftime once.
So I was able to do that. But I play golf now. I can play golf. I I walk
regularly. But mostly I still write, I still write on all of my books.
I've been able to do a video program for exercise breaks in elementary
schools that I never would have been able to do had I not been retired
because it just is such a time consuming thing. I still give workshops. I
still an active professionally and yes, I always will be very good. So
last question is what what comment, what you have or any key story that
you would like to add, that we haven't really talked about. What's the one
thing that you want to convey?
I I don't know if there's anything um that I'd really like to add in terms
of a specific thing other than it in my work with youth fitness. Um we bob
and I encountered a lot of resistance to what is called the health fitness
movement um, Back in the 40s and 50s. A lot of the fitness movement,
especially youth witness was related to war. You know, got to get these
men fit for war and it didn't include women, the sports programs for,
we're not inclusive for women and being de facto women's athletic director
at Kansas state by de facto meaning all the coaches were in my department
and I had to get them some salary. And so I had to tell them to you know
get in coaching or get in physical education but you can't do both. And
when I came to A. S. U. You know, we had they had some ah similar kinds of
uh problems. So I wrote a book back then called the athletic snowball. And
what it was about is the fact that if you as a academic get in the way of
an athletic snowball and you're going to get rolled over. And that was
largely a result of my experience as a ah you know, trying to get the
women's athletic programs separated from the academic programs side of the
program. So, you know along the line I've I've fought battles with the
President's Council on Youth Fitness even though I Did their newsletter
for 13 years because their view of fitness was more performance for sports
and Bob in my view is more health-related fitness for everyone. So you
know, you gotta pick your battles. But if you pick them and you have a
passion then you fight for them. And as it turns out now women's athletics
which went to the Ai w are now part of the N. C. A. Who didn't want them.
So you know that battle got resolved over the years and interesting and
enough fitness ground which is a health related fitness test that we
worked on all those years, is now the President's Council test. That's
very satisfying.
Well thank you so much for taking the time to share your history and your
experiences. Thank you for to ask me the questions I appreciate very good.
Thank you. Related to the moves that took place where most of those moves
After 2002, where he went to the East Campus and then later to downtown.
What effect on the programs did those moves have, were they um rather a
negative feeling when you first started move and then they worked out some
good things happen. Well. Uh let me answer that in a couple of ways. Um
and I'll just repeat the question in case they didn't pick it up on the
mic when um
the moves were made in the polytechnic campus was was developed. And then
also the downtown campus, all of our programs were on the Tempe campus
and over time after dance in recreation and athletics moved out, three
different channels emerged. There was the kinesiology, liberal arts
program, there was exercise and wellness, which was fitness management and
that sort of thing, and fitness leadership and physical education. So
during the Late 90s, attention developed between the sciences and the
professions and the professions decided that they would explore
opportunities elsewhere meaning exercise and wellness and physical
education they visited. And I was part of that with Bill Stone and others.
The polytechnic campus chuck back us. Uh And and he entertained it and we
were exploring the possibility of making that move. Both physical
education and exercise and wellness decided to make the move to the
polytechnic ASU East at the time. Um And
at that time both were going to move in at the last minute. Ah Okay.
Physical education was denied the opportunity to go and so exercise and
wellness went by itself. And the old N. C. O. Club became the place where
the program laboratories and so forth were so kinesiology and physical
education stayed on the Tempe campus. So I moved out in 2000 and one. So I
was only there for a few years. The bulk of my work, my colleague and
research mates stayed on on the Tempe campus. And then a couple of years
later they did make the move two east and so but as a separate unit
originally they were gonna be together. So then after I retired in 2005
and I'm not I can't tell you the exact date. Um They moved to the downtown
campus meaning exercise and wellness and the combined nutrition and
exercise and wellness PhD because nutrition had made the move downtown the
year before. Um So in answer to the question, there was tension, there was
tension between the sciences and the professional programs. There was
tension about resources. You know what resources would stay and what
resources would go. Graduate assistantship, faculty lines, equipment and
so forth. Um, kinesiology stayed on the Tempe campus. The exercise science
PhD stayed on the Tempe campus. But ultimately, um, that program dissolved
and merged in across the Tempe campus and faculty were placed in other
academic units. And only a small part of that unit went downtown to be
part of the exercise and wellness health promotion program. Health
promotion. It was a new major that we introduced when we moved to east
Kathy jones and pam swamp. And I, uh, along with bill murmurs, help
develop that. And the health science was largely Bill murmurs is uh, thing
and it's now a major program, those both of those health promotion and
health sciences downtown. So in answer to the question, um, there were a
lot of dynamics that went on. Uh, part of the move was because the need
for programs to go to these new campuses. But part of the reason for the
move was that there would be a better placement in a greater chance for
success for some of these programs elsewhere. And I would say probably
autonomy for these programs was a major factor, the ability to make your
own decisions, which is not unlike why dance moved or recreation moved or
any of them. And, and so the good news is that again, I think if you look
at the university as a whole and look at this as an incubator. Think of
how many programs still exists across this campus that emerged from this
collective unit. Right, What's interesting, We didn't interview page
Mulholland. We've interviewed other people who used to run with paige at
noontime and I think they had lockers over there in West Jim,
jerry, McSheffrey and Mike,
who was the library guy. He had a name like your event. No, that was,
he's a good friend of mine. I guess. I'm getting old. I know exactly the
interview. Vladimir. Yeah,
but page was,
I mean he was really out of shape and he got into that program and we did
the fitness testing on him, you know, comprehensive testing every year.
And he was just huge advocate. And As you know, he lived to be into his
70s and he far outlived any other member of his family or generations
before you probably helped him live.
Well, he always gave he and mary Beth often gave me credit for that and
I'll take it. But you know, he did it, you know, and you can, you can help
people and you can lead them to something that he, he was very steadfast
in his commitment. Plus he was a responder as we say, as he was a
respondent. How about you gonna say anything about bob feller or Boudreaux
? Well, I could say something about that because I had that. That was one
of my great
losses in life because when we went to
Arizona Tucson to go to school. My mom actually worked as a car hop at the
Ticktock driving in Tucson, my dad was Tiktok was a bill collector while
he was going to school for rubens furniture company. And in Tucson and I
played baseball and I had this card collection at home in Ohio. And when
we moved into Mexico, I never went back to Ohio for years. And when I did
go back, my cards were gone and I had lou boudreau and bobby Avila and
luke easter and larry doby dale Mitchell and Jim Hagen and bob feller an
early win and mike Garcia and bob lemon and uh, you know, I, you know, I
knew all of the Cleveland indians and I got and when they used to train
out and casa grande, I think the Franciscan down there, they would come
from here through Albuquerque and play an exhibition game with the Giants
on their way way back east and I got a foul ball off of the bat of Darrell
spencer from the Giants and I never knew who he was. He was probably a
young guy that, you know, goes to training camp and and doesn't doesn't
make it, but that was major, I have a bob feller signed baseball, but it's
from my brother signed And how did uh Odenkirk, Jim Odenkirk fit into this.
He was,
that's interesting because Jim was, has he been interviewed? Okay, Jim was
on the, yeah, Jim was on the faculty at Bowling green when I was on the
faculty at the University of Toledo. So that's where I first met him and
we used to go down to Ohio State, which is where he did his PhD and they
did a college conference for the whole state there. And so I knew Jim from
that. Um and then he was
in the department, there was a chair of health education and the chair of
physical education and they weren't really chairs, they were things that
they were designated. So Jim was the coordinator of the physical education
side of it. So I had contacted and said if you ever have a position open,
I'd be interested in getting back to the southwest. So I knew him and he,
his thing back in the day was more administration. Uh and then he went
back and got his masters and history at N A U I think. And uh but then he
just finished his recent book about the Cleveland indians and just came
out, moved, moved to the United States in 1978.
I was gonna come here for just one year. I got my masters, it's like a
college and it's a good new york and I was going to go back and get a job
serving the army at the time, there was still a mandatory draft and a
couple of things happened and here I am, I'm stillhere