WEBVTT 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:06.839 today is March 16th 2000 and 16 were conducting an interview for the 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:14.316 Arizona State University retirees association video history project. We're 00:00:14.349 --> 00:00:19.067 located today in the issue community service building. My name is hans van 00:00:19.100 --> 00:00:22.936 de mars. I'm a professor of physical education. The technical support 00:00:22.969 --> 00:00:28.896 staff today includes john McIntosh on camera, linda vance coy for audio 00:00:28.929 --> 00:00:34.740 and director and David shots lee as the chair of the video history project. 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:37.439 Could you please introduce yourself? Okay, I'm Charles B. Chuck Corbin. 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:47.326 When I retired in 2005 I was a professor of exercise and wellness at the 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:53.146 ASU. Polytechnic campus. Okay to begin with, can you let our viewers know 00:00:53.179 --> 00:00:57.207 a little bit about your early life where you were born and raised your 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:04.387 spouse and your family. Sure my grandparents were from Ohio, my 00:01:04.420 --> 00:01:09.617 grandfather was a grocer. My other grandfather was a civil engineer for 00:01:09.650 --> 00:01:14.846 the B and O. Railroad. So my mom and dad, I grew up in Ohio, I went to 00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:21.126 Miami University and my dad was in the Navy. And so my brothers and I 00:01:21.159 --> 00:01:25.507 older brother Don and younger brother, David grew up for the 1st 10 years 00:01:25.540 --> 00:01:32.777 of our life in Delta. Ohio. My dad got out of the Navy and uh came back uh 00:01:32.810 --> 00:01:38.137 and started a business of pay pinball slot machines, jukeboxes which were 00:01:38.170 --> 00:01:42.007 all legal and it's called the Delta music and novelty company in Delta. 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:47.337 Ohio. Unfortunately he bought a bunch of new machines and uh they became 00:01:47.370 --> 00:01:54.397 illegal overnight and so he decided he'd go to law school and you know, 00:01:54.430 --> 00:01:58.736 correct things. So he started in law school at the University of Toledo in 00:01:58.769 --> 00:02:02.107 one summer in 1952 00:02:02.140 --> 00:02:06.066 he decided he would go to the University of Arizona and pick up a couple 00:02:06.099 --> 00:02:10.967 of law classes that he needed to finish his law degree. We all thought we 00:02:11.000 --> 00:02:15.297 were going to go back home. I was a Cleveland indians fan and a 00:02:15.330 --> 00:02:21.976 prospective baseball player in my own mind and we never went back. He we 00:02:22.009 --> 00:02:26.427 decided to go to Albuquerque and got in marriage students housing. My mom 00:02:26.460 --> 00:02:31.117 was already already had teaching credentials and he gave up the law and 00:02:31.150 --> 00:02:35.707 gave up all of that, got a teaching degree on the G. I. Bill. And we moved 00:02:35.740 --> 00:02:41.316 to a ranch in the middle of New Mexico, 18 miles from nowhere, 60 miles 00:02:41.349 --> 00:02:48.997 from Albuquerque. And so we became ranchers and I became a basketball 00:02:49.030 --> 00:02:52.767 player and a football player and a baseball player and a very small high 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:58.656 school Went on to the University of New Mexico where I met my wife now of 00:02:58.689 --> 00:03:05.256 53 years. I have three sons, all regions graduates to from A. S. U. And 00:03:05.289 --> 00:03:11.077 one from the U. Of a one defected on the on us there. But I have four 00:03:11.110 --> 00:03:16.047 great fantastic granddaughters all that live within a mile of our house. 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:24.080 So ah we life has strange turns it turns out and for our family it did. We 00:03:24.449 --> 00:03:32.307 went from one course to another overnight. And here we are. Very good, 00:03:32.340 --> 00:03:36.217 very good. Can you trace your life path through your schooling and the 00:03:36.250 --> 00:03:40.446 jobs until you arrived here at Arizona State University? Sure. I, you know 00:03:40.479 --> 00:03:44.446 I thought like all of young kids especially somebody grew up playing 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:48.467 baseball all of his life that I was going to be a major leaguer. We all 00:03:48.500 --> 00:03:53.256 think that I guess and being in a small high school if you're a boy and 00:03:53.289 --> 00:03:58.256 you can walk you know you play every sport they need everybody out there 00:03:58.289 --> 00:04:01.987 that you get. So I played all sports. I went to the University of New 00:04:02.020 --> 00:04:09.057 Mexico played baseball um turns out a big fish in a small pond, is a small 00:04:09.090 --> 00:04:14.066 fish in a big pond and didn't play a lot. But I got to travel and I 00:04:14.099 --> 00:04:19.337 actually got to come to a S. U. In 59 60. I was reminiscing with Dave 00:04:19.370 --> 00:04:24.697 earlier about playing baseball behind PE West which is a brand new 00:04:24.730 --> 00:04:30.697 building back then and and uh admiring the weather because of the wind 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:35.577 blew so much. And in New Mexico from there I got my degree at U. N. M. 00:04:35.610 --> 00:04:40.356 Became an elementary PE teacher. I went on the University of Illinois and 00:04:40.389 --> 00:04:44.856 got a master's degree and decided maybe I should continue in graduate 00:04:44.889 --> 00:04:49.467 school. Got a PhD in health and physical education, health, physical 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:55.957 education and recreation from the University of New Mexico. Uh had a job 00:04:55.990 --> 00:05:00.897 as department chair at ST Michael's College in santa fe then two years at 00:05:00.930 --> 00:05:05.197 the university of Toledo. Strange how things happen in it. Born in Toledo 00:05:05.230 --> 00:05:09.806 raised for first years near there and then taught there for two years, 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:15.467 four years at Texas A&M 11 years at Kansas state where I was department 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:20.817 chair for years in de facto women's athletic director because that was the 00:05:20.850 --> 00:05:24.906 seventies and the title nine came along. So I had to merge the men and 00:05:24.939 --> 00:05:30.827 women's department And help the women into an athletic program where they 00:05:30.860 --> 00:05:36.947 got proper support came to Arizona State in 1982 as a target of 00:05:36.980 --> 00:05:43.877 opportunity, higher full professor. And we were charged with trying to 00:05:43.910 --> 00:05:48.036 make this one of the best departments in the country and I think we did. 00:05:48.069 --> 00:05:53.406 And you were one of the first people that came onto the faculty in right 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:59.707 after I got here as I recall. So, can you talk a little bit more about who 00:05:59.740 --> 00:06:04.277 hired you? And I know you mentioned that you came in as a full professor 00:06:04.310 --> 00:06:07.467 and maybe talk as well a little bit about what made you choose a issue. 00:06:07.500 --> 00:06:11.496 What attracted you to the position? Yeah, it's, it's, it's really a 00:06:11.529 --> 00:06:16.476 fabulous story actually, um, page model and a guy that some people around 00:06:16.509 --> 00:06:21.397 here might know was my associate dean at Kansas state and he's the guy 00:06:21.430 --> 00:06:25.777 that hired me to be chair of the department at Kansas state all those 00:06:25.810 --> 00:06:33.606 years ago and page was a little bit overweight and out of shape And the 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:38.257 oldest surviving member of his family as I recall was something like 50 00:06:38.290 --> 00:06:45.106 years. He had a family history of hypercholesterolemia and heart disease 00:06:45.139 --> 00:06:50.127 and I started a faculty fitness program at Kansas state and paige and his 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:55.806 dean and several, the vice president's got involved with it and we tested 00:06:55.839 --> 00:07:03.777 people and uh Page became an avid runner and became extremely fit and uh 00:07:03.810 --> 00:07:07.806 it was, it was really a neat thing. He went on to be dean at the 00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:11.957 University of Oklahoma. And then came Arizona State as the first is 00:07:11.990 --> 00:07:17.976 provost. And then as I call recall executive vice president I think. And 00:07:18.009 --> 00:07:23.926 so he decided that he could make an already good department into one of 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:29.306 the best in the country if he uh 00:07:29.339 --> 00:07:32.806 could get the right people and he could probably do it cheaper than making 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:37.397 some of the other programs in arts and sciences. Really good. So he made a 00:07:37.430 --> 00:07:42.577 commitment. He hired dan Landers to join people like bob can, pen grazie 00:07:42.610 --> 00:07:50.007 and chris wells and Bill Stone and others. Um and uh then he hired dan 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:55.176 Landers uh the year before I came and and Jim Skinner and then me and then 00:07:55.209 --> 00:07:59.616 people like you and actually we, we actually did make it into one of the 00:07:59.649 --> 00:08:06.166 top schools in the country. Uh and I think paige was largely responsible 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:11.567 for that. Although gary cran Bill was the department chair and he 00:08:11.600 --> 00:08:15.317 certainly had played a role and was one of the leaders that was already 00:08:15.350 --> 00:08:18.906 here. So what positions did you hold? And and how many years were you at 00:08:18.939 --> 00:08:26.939 issue? well when I retired I had been here for 24 years, came in In 82. Um 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:33.846 most of my responsibilities were in the graduate area and so as graduate 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:38.526 coordinator, which initially was just with the master's degree because the 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:44.356 doctoral program when I came was to the College of Education. Um Then we 00:08:44.389 --> 00:08:50.726 wrote the PhD in exercise science dan Landers was uh largely in charge of 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:55.006 that. But he and Jim Skinner and I worked on developing that, which we 00:08:55.039 --> 00:09:03.039 implemented the probably in 83 I would guess then subsequently we, I wrote 00:09:03.070 --> 00:09:10.476 with some of the people in the College of Education, a PhD program in 00:09:10.509 --> 00:09:14.537 curriculum and instruction and uh we had a physical education 00:09:14.570 --> 00:09:18.496 specialization and then exercise and wellness. So we actually had three 00:09:18.529 --> 00:09:25.207 PhD programs and we have members of the National Academy of kinesiology 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:29.437 who are graduates from all three of those programs. So you know, I'm 00:09:29.470 --> 00:09:36.967 pretty proud of that as you should be. So can you tell me a bit about what 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:40.846 it was like when you first arrived at a issue being a faculty member at 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:46.866 issue at that time In the early 80s. Well 00:09:46.899 --> 00:09:51.807 I might back up a little bit before that because when I was playing 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:57.096 baseball or to put it more accurately when I was on the baseball team at 00:09:57.129 --> 00:10:00.896 the University of New Mexico because I caught a lot of batting practice 00:10:00.929 --> 00:10:04.947 when we traveled, I didn't do a lot of play but I got to travel and we 00:10:04.980 --> 00:10:09.016 used to come through here because it was on a state within the skyline 00:10:09.049 --> 00:10:15.626 conference. They had been in the border conference before that. And after 00:10:15.659 --> 00:10:20.026 I played the both went together in the Western athletic conference before 00:10:20.059 --> 00:10:26.116 they came into the pack eight and pac 10 and pac 12 and so forth. At any 00:10:26.149 --> 00:10:33.846 rate we drive in here. And So I had seen the campus in 59 and 60 and 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:40.947 always uh you know Bobby Winkles. Baseball teams were so good and we never 00:10:40.980 --> 00:10:46.496 beat them. You know this this was the place to be. So when I came back in 00:10:46.529 --> 00:10:50.687 82 I hadn't been back, you know in all of those years. And you know the 00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:54.437 baseball field that was all behind pe West, you know was gone, the 00:10:54.470 --> 00:10:59.016 football field was gone and the marriage student quantity huts were gone 00:10:59.049 --> 00:11:06.937 and it just looked um a lot different. But by the time I got here, you 00:11:06.970 --> 00:11:11.537 know things had moved toward more like a research university and you 00:11:11.570 --> 00:11:16.096 started to see research buildings. But you know the computer building was 00:11:16.129 --> 00:11:20.766 commons wasn't here, the rec center wasn't here. Uh you know a lot of 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:28.447 things like that. We're just beginning to uh President nelson was 00:11:28.480 --> 00:11:32.996 president of the university when I came. So what was your home department 00:11:33.029 --> 00:11:37.207 , your unit like when you arrived? 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:42.157 Mhm. Actually it was called health and physical education and again, a bit 00:11:42.190 --> 00:11:45.846 of background there might make sense because I had just come from Kansas 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:53.879 State and while chair there, I had merged the men and women's department, 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.467 I had found a home for women's athletics because all of the women's 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:03.356 coaches were faculty members in our department and they were spending more 00:12:03.389 --> 00:12:08.447 time coaching than they were teaching and researching. And half of our 00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:12.756 faculty were men, faculty who were coaching and spending more time 00:12:12.789 --> 00:12:17.557 teaching. So I had gone through years of, you know, extricating all of 00:12:17.590 --> 00:12:23.266 this. And then then I came here and I and I saw this program and they had 00:12:23.299 --> 00:12:28.006 this program had just kind of moved past some of that, for example, 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:33.366 Recreation in 79 was in the department, but he had moved to college of 00:12:33.399 --> 00:12:38.037 public programs, Dance had been in the department and it moved to fine 00:12:38.070 --> 00:12:42.447 arts. So in a lot of ways, health and physical education was an incubator 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:47.787 , you know, for other other programs furthermore, many of the faculty 00:12:47.820 --> 00:12:55.266 members, uh you know, like an pittman and uh several of the other women's 00:12:55.299 --> 00:13:00.697 coaches who were outstanding teens, but they were also members of of the 00:13:00.730 --> 00:13:06.677 physical education, faculty ned walk and and uh and fred miller were 00:13:06.710 --> 00:13:13.096 faculty members in our department and that wasn't uncommon for people have 00:13:13.129 --> 00:13:19.516 tenure and who are coaches, that kind of thing started to change. And by 00:13:19.549 --> 00:13:24.587 the time I came here, we were into a science movement. Our field had 00:13:24.620 --> 00:13:30.516 evolved from just teaching physical education and the sciences of exercise 00:13:30.549 --> 00:13:36.116 physiology, biomechanics, sports psychology were emerging not just here, 00:13:36.149 --> 00:13:42.287 but that nationwide in it. So it in some senses that created a dichotomy 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:49.087 between the old and the teaching professions and the new in the science 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:56.037 movement. And so a lot of the young hires were in in the sciences. Uh, so 00:13:56.070 --> 00:14:01.707 in answer to that question, things were changing rather dramatically. Um 00:14:01.740 --> 00:14:07.167 and things that had been a part of that originally core started to move 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:12.606 off and actually created programs that are still in existence today 00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.606 throughout the universities. 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:19.366 So who did you report to? Or who was your, your chairman of the department 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:24.646 ? Who were the, who was the dean you mentioned was nelson as president. 00:14:24.679 --> 00:14:30.667 Yeah. Guido wagon was the dean as I recall. And Gary Granville had just 00:14:30.700 --> 00:14:36.457 become a chair. And as you know, Gary went on to become a social dean and 00:14:36.490 --> 00:14:43.307 dean and at one point a vice president. Um, and he, 00:14:43.340 --> 00:14:50.967 it was a giant in, you know, getting the program to grow and, and uh he 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:58.927 oversaw the development of the doctoral programs and during that time 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:04.126 we also started to develop new specializations that we developed exercise 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:09.697 and wellness, which is the equivalent of teaching physical education, but 00:15:09.730 --> 00:15:14.077 not in school, you know, and health clubs and fitness management and that 00:15:14.110 --> 00:15:19.707 kind of thing. So we, we saw those new programs, we also saw the emergency 00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:24.827 emergence of kinesiology as a scientific discipline and a liberal arts 00:15:24.860 --> 00:15:28.856 major that wasn't professional in nature like physical education that you 00:15:28.889 --> 00:15:33.886 do or exercise and wellness that I also worked in as as well as as 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:39.636 physical education and as you know, well, physical education moved out to 00:15:39.669 --> 00:15:45.167 polytechnic and it's still there. Whereas exercise and wellness alta first 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:50.516 moved to polytechnic and it's now at the downtown campus. So from that 00:15:50.549 --> 00:15:55.457 core of physical education that we started and became the number one 00:15:55.490 --> 00:16:02.736 program in the United States during those years is now God Segments that 00:16:02.769 --> 00:16:08.427 are major programs throughout, not just one campus 00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:15.457 campus. So this next question might require extra disk space, but how, how 00:16:15.490 --> 00:16:19.677 did Arizona State University change from when you arrive until you retired 00:16:19.710 --> 00:16:27.710 ? Well, aside from the facilities ah, which have changed dramatically. I 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:33.596 mean if students, even my own graduate students who started back in the 00:16:33.629 --> 00:16:36.636 eighties when they come here, you know, they won't recognize, they don't 00:16:36.669 --> 00:16:41.866 recognize it. I mean, everything has changed and our programs have moved 00:16:41.899 --> 00:16:48.146 like physical education out there. So in some senses for them, there's a 00:16:48.179 --> 00:16:53.337 loss of what I call sense of place. You know, you come and you expect it 00:16:53.370 --> 00:16:58.337 to be what it was and it's not what it was even if you went where you were 00:16:58.370 --> 00:17:02.717 , it's not what it was, but the programs that they were in maybe are in a 00:17:02.750 --> 00:17:08.056 different location and they don't have any identification, you know, with 00:17:08.089 --> 00:17:16.089 that at all. But at the same time I think that a s you should be proud of 00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:22.016 the number of graduates that we've turned out PhD graduates who our leader 00:17:22.049 --> 00:17:27.917 in our field all over the world. And I know they're very proud of their 00:17:27.950 --> 00:17:33.697 association with A S. U. Right. Uh talk a bit about how your career 00:17:33.730 --> 00:17:38.177 progressed or what you remember most about your career at Arizona State 00:17:38.210 --> 00:17:40.907 University. 00:17:40.940 --> 00:17:46.127 Well, I would have to say that the thing that that the things that I 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:50.617 remember are the outstanding faculty that we were able to bring here and 00:17:50.650 --> 00:17:56.407 the fact that we were able to take a leadership role, the graduate 00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:02.296 students that we produced who are now leaders uh throughout the country. 00:18:02.329 --> 00:18:10.167 But I think also for me, one of the things that I remember the most is the 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:15.107 the leadership role that we had in the fitness movement in the United 00:18:15.140 --> 00:18:20.617 States. That includes my own work and the development of conceptual 00:18:20.650 --> 00:18:27.467 physical education and the fitness education movement and my partnership 00:18:27.500 --> 00:18:33.467 with Bob Penn Grazie, who is my office mate for 25 years. And together we 00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:40.847 did considerable research on youth fitness. We were charter members of the 00:18:40.880 --> 00:18:47.576 uh Fitness Gram advisory board from the Cooper Institute and uh where we 00:18:47.609 --> 00:18:53.347 had a big role in developing the national youth fitness test which is now 00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:58.377 part of the presidential youth fitness test program and the fitness 00:18:58.410 --> 00:19:03.677 education programs that I developed even before I came to Arizona State 00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:11.710 University um expanded and exploded because of the work of bob and my work 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:20.736 and our graduate students. And and I think Arizona state is known very 00:19:20.769 --> 00:19:26.607 much for fitness education programs. And I might put in a plug for hans 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:32.707 van Damar sport education because hans is um uh leading proponent of sport 00:19:32.740 --> 00:19:36.806 education which is a major program 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:41.076 that has emerged in the United States and the physical education area. 00:19:41.109 --> 00:19:48.076 You're too kind. Thank you. So is there a special event or a special for 00:19:48.109 --> 00:19:53.046 instance that stands out uh during your tenure here at Arizona State 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:58.707 University. Uh what will you remember most about your a issue career? Well 00:19:58.740 --> 00:20:06.306 , you know again I think it goes back to students probably, but maybe one 00:20:06.339 --> 00:20:11.207 of the most memorable things is when my third son, our third son, Kathleen 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:18.387 , My wife Kathy and our 3rd son graduated from from Arizona state. Um So 00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:22.806 we got them all through And that that was memorable and I think it was 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:30.097 also memorable to me when after doing a a undergraduate degree here and a 00:20:30.130 --> 00:20:36.427 doctorate at the University of Georgia and a postdoc at texas and then 00:20:36.460 --> 00:20:41.826 being hired and teaching seven years at Yale. Our youngest son moved here 00:20:41.859 --> 00:20:47.717 as a professor of psychology at A. S. U. And the psychology department and 00:20:47.750 --> 00:20:53.947 for him becoming a co author with me on our successful conceptual or 00:20:53.980 --> 00:20:59.427 fitness education book that we use at the college level. Also very 00:20:59.460 --> 00:21:04.187 memorable to me is the fact that Greg welcome, who is one of my doctoral 00:21:04.220 --> 00:21:12.220 students is a co author of a book and another. Uh um Missouri is the co 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:17.677 author of My Fitness for Life book. And Karyn McConnell, one of our 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:21.746 adoptable students is the co author of our healthcare life book. So those 00:21:21.779 --> 00:21:26.986 are all really memorable things to me because this fitness education is 00:21:27.019 --> 00:21:33.367 sort of my baby and and my grandkids are the ones that are now taking it 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.286 forward and so that's that's that's a good thing. Good, good. So can you 00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.197 tell me a bit about if there is, if there is one individual or some 00:21:41.230 --> 00:21:45.387 individuals who have had the biggest impact on you during your tenure at a 00:21:45.420 --> 00:21:51.576 issue before my tenure at A. S. U. Other than you know, my wife who had to 00:21:51.609 --> 00:21:56.857 put up with all of this stuff and worked to put me through the graduate 00:21:56.890 --> 00:22:03.667 school and having three kids and making $6,000 a year and our first job 00:22:03.700 --> 00:22:11.177 and and trying to find money on the couch to to to make it through the the 00:22:11.210 --> 00:22:16.786 next thing and you know together, you know we've we've made a good 00:22:16.819 --> 00:22:22.566 partnership and and made it a long way. Uh so that and the support of my 00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:27.637 kids along the way. But my high school basketball coach, it was a huge 00:22:27.670 --> 00:22:33.066 influence because he actually went on to get a PhD at the University of 00:22:33.099 --> 00:22:37.506 New Mexico. Got, he and his wife were in the Peace corps and he became a 00:22:37.539 --> 00:22:42.407 professor at SAn Diego State University and has authored one of the most 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:49.417 widely used books on school discipline. And I still stay in touch with him 00:22:49.450 --> 00:22:54.707 uh, and he's been a huge influence. I can't underestimate 00:22:54.740 --> 00:22:59.726 the impact that mary Beth and Page Mahal and had on my life because 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:05.467 without them I wouldn't be here probably. And um, this was a huge move for 00:23:05.500 --> 00:23:12.137 us. Good. So I want to get back to some other areas. Where were you 00:23:12.170 --> 00:23:18.847 located on the campus when you arrived? Well we were, I was located in PG 00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:22.607 West, which is interesting because coming back, but that was that new 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:27.187 building, that brand new edifice, which was the great new basketball 00:23:27.220 --> 00:23:30.236 reading. And by then everybody's saying where they're going to tear this 00:23:30.269 --> 00:23:34.447 thing down. And I remember it was on the five year plan for removal 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:40.836 starting when I got here and and it's still here. And that was my great 00:23:40.869 --> 00:23:46.806 pleasure because we have a new in our faculty basketball program That has 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:51.667 gone on since George and Watson and bill are in and I started that back in 00:23:51.700 --> 00:23:56.256 the 80s and every Monday Wednesday and Friday people play basketball. We 00:23:56.289 --> 00:24:03.437 don't want pe west to go away because that's a good place to for uh for 00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:09.996 these activities. And what was the question? Where were you located? So we 00:24:10.029 --> 00:24:16.276 were in in PE west part of the program was over in P. E. East And and I 00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:21.776 stayed there until our program moved in 2001. That's the exercise and 00:24:21.809 --> 00:24:27.726 wellness and health promotion to the polytechnic campus. And then after I 00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:34.326 retired those programs moved downtown. Physical education later moved to 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:39.207 the polytechnic campus. And as you well know, because you coordinate that 00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:45.367 program, that's where you are today. So okay. So what was in your 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:52.417 estimation? Really unique and special that made the department outstanding. 00:24:52.450 --> 00:24:58.677 I think part of it was that they had a strong nucleus before this 00:24:58.710 --> 00:25:06.607 infusion of outside um target of opportunity hires. Because you know, the 00:25:06.640 --> 00:25:10.207 people that I've mentioned, I mean they were already established 00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:16.086 established and then having a higher administrator willing to commit the 00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:22.066 resources and the startup money to to bring in the people to build up the 00:25:22.099 --> 00:25:28.397 the research side of the program was significant. 00:25:28.430 --> 00:25:34.187 One of the things that has challenged our field. Mhm. As long as I've been 00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:39.407 in it and I've done a lot of historical work with it is the 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:44.107 the fact that we are an incubator. So as an area within our field gets 00:25:44.140 --> 00:25:49.957 stronger, it wants its independence and it moves here and here and here 00:25:49.990 --> 00:25:54.927 dance and so forth. Well that continued during the time that I was here. 00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:01.806 And so uh just like there was tension with within these areas like 00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:05.736 recreation that move out and so forth. There was a tension between the 00:26:05.769 --> 00:26:11.486 science side and the professional side. And once again you see what's 00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.957 happened now, we have kinesiology and exercise and wellness and health 00:26:15.990 --> 00:26:19.986 motion downtown, which is where it should be because of the logical 00:26:20.019 --> 00:26:26.947 connection with nutrition. And I helped actually, I wrote the PhD proposal 00:26:26.980 --> 00:26:34.887 for that as well. And uh so physical education uh then kind of is in a 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:38.826 separate area. And, and to me in a lot of ways, I have written over the 00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:45.026 years about common goals and different roles that we all don't have to do 00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:49.627 the same thing. It's important to have common goals, but each can play its 00:26:49.660 --> 00:26:54.256 its own role well, somehow together, some of the times these programs 00:26:54.289 --> 00:26:58.637 don't always have common goals and so they need to get in places where 00:26:58.670 --> 00:27:03.927 they can play their own role. And I think uh probably especially in the 00:27:03.960 --> 00:27:07.427 case of physical education for example, this is a good thing. And I think 00:27:07.460 --> 00:27:10.996 the other programs belong downtown where there near the med school and the 00:27:11.029 --> 00:27:15.806 nursing school and so forth. So I think it's been a good thing, 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:20.647 what what kind of challenges that you encounter over the course of your 00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:25.907 career, Financial, administrative, 00:27:25.940 --> 00:27:31.756 philosophically, I would say that I already mentioned, you know, I started 00:27:31.789 --> 00:27:38.046 out as a pE teacher, elementary pE teacher in Albuquerque for 4000 bucks a 00:27:38.079 --> 00:27:45.967 year and 1960. and my first college teaching job I made $6,000. And not 00:27:46.000 --> 00:27:49.717 only did we look for money in the couch, as I mentioned, we bought a new 00:27:49.750 --> 00:27:54.347 car and we had take it back and get an old used car because we couldn't 00:27:54.380 --> 00:27:58.536 make the payments, you know, had a kid coming, but you know, that's not 00:27:58.569 --> 00:28:05.117 different than happens for most people and um we've been very fortunate, I 00:28:05.150 --> 00:28:11.667 think some other challenges that that we faced is just the general view of 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:18.046 academia towards what we do. Um Physical education is often looked at as a 00:28:18.079 --> 00:28:23.816 step child of education and you know, someplace where jocks go to, you 00:28:23.849 --> 00:28:31.849 know take basket weaving and easy classes and and trying to ah show the 00:28:32.700 --> 00:28:39.826 world that that we are, we are really for real sometimes. Um I felt that 00:28:39.859 --> 00:28:46.347 we went overboard, you know, we got approved everybody field, we can be 00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:51.526 tougher than we can be as tough as or tougher than anyone else. And I 00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:56.586 think that that that creates those two things, you know, the the 00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:01.137 perception of always wanting to change the name to something else to make 00:29:01.170 --> 00:29:06.617 it seem more academic. I mean what we do is important, it will be and it 00:29:06.650 --> 00:29:13.766 always will be and the science bears it out, you know, uh the whole kid 00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:18.246 goes to school, the whole person lives life in the brain without a body 00:29:18.279 --> 00:29:24.226 that is fit and healthy isn't worth having, right, you know, so, of all of 00:29:24.259 --> 00:29:27.776 your accomplishments. I know you touched on some of this earlier, but 00:29:27.809 --> 00:29:31.407 perhaps there's something something else that might stand up, what what 00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:35.707 gives you the most pride? Um 00:29:35.740 --> 00:29:39.207 clearly professionally, 00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:47.240 the fitness education movement that others Started back in the 50s and 60s. 00:29:48.519 --> 00:29:53.976 But I grabbed onto in 68 with the publication of my concepts of physical 00:29:54.009 --> 00:30:01.286 fitness book and the emergence of fitness of education is a Major part of 00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:07.016 college experience that 98% of all colleges in the United States have a 00:30:07.049 --> 00:30:11.967 fitness education or fitness and wellness class. When I first started that 00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:18.707 , I was told that publishers that no book like that would ever be used 00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:23.627 Because it was pe and you don't use a book for pe except for pe majors. 00:30:23.660 --> 00:30:28.707 Well, it turns out they were wrong. And our book is in the 17th edition, 00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:34.187 uh this is an innovation that is have been documented in the literature 00:30:34.220 --> 00:30:38.457 and is 98% 00:30:38.490 --> 00:30:44.657 involved. It's it's a it's something that I take great pride in and I take 00:30:44.690 --> 00:30:49.246 great, great pride in showing the people who said it couldn't be done that. 00:30:49.279 --> 00:30:55.486 Indeed it could. And so I would say, you know that, and the fact that we 00:30:55.519 --> 00:31:01.306 were able to not only introduce these courses in college for non majors, 00:31:01.339 --> 00:31:06.056 but for everybody to learn about fitness and wellness, but also For the 00:31:06.089 --> 00:31:10.756 high school, for the middle school and having books and videos and things 00:31:10.789 --> 00:31:15.357 for all levels. K through 12 and college. You must wonder what's wrong 00:31:15.390 --> 00:31:19.357 with those 2% of the universities that are not requiring those kinds of 00:31:19.390 --> 00:31:27.390 experiences. I often do, but then I I wonder also about the universities 00:31:27.410 --> 00:31:33.657 that have dropped, not just required programs, but dropped all anything 00:31:33.690 --> 00:31:39.657 related, anything related. And I believe that every university should have 00:31:39.690 --> 00:31:45.887 a fitness and wellness education or a course and healthy lifestyles to 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:50.796 help students learn how to be healthy and stay healthy and make good 00:31:50.829 --> 00:31:55.796 decisions through life? Good. So what is the one single best memory that 00:31:55.829 --> 00:32:00.246 you will take with you the rest of the way from your stay and your work 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:04.207 and career at a issue, 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:11.506 I don't know. Um, I guess again, I would, I have to say it was seeing each 00:32:11.539 --> 00:32:18.697 of my 18 doctoral students graduate and seeing several of them elected as 00:32:18.730 --> 00:32:24.447 you have been into the National Academy of kinesiology, which is a, A 00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:30.986 group of about 125 people, an elite academy. And, and to see other of our 00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:39.019 doctoral students inducted into that is pretty powerful. Good. 00:32:39.039 --> 00:32:47.039 So a young assistant professor who comes into our area today, given your 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:52.286 stature, your experience, your expertise, knowing what higher education is 00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:59.046 like today, what advice would you give them? Well, I would say if you 00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:05.107 don't have a passion for what you do, do something else because you're 00:33:05.140 --> 00:33:09.556 going to have to have some passion. And the reason why I say that is 00:33:09.589 --> 00:33:15.367 because it's a moving target. Teaching in college is a moving target. When 00:33:15.400 --> 00:33:18.607 I started in 19 00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:26.640 60 five, 64 at ST Michael's College in Santa Fe if a person in our area 00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:34.347 published something, anything you would move ahead, you know? And then as 00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:39.917 things progressed in each job, I happen to like to write, I was good at it. 00:33:39.950 --> 00:33:44.947 I'd like to do research, but some didn't. And if you don't, you know, the 00:33:44.980 --> 00:33:50.476 old publisher perish. Well it's published in certain journals and then 00:33:50.509 --> 00:33:55.066 these journals and then get citations and then get grants and get this. 00:33:55.099 --> 00:34:00.177 And I'm not knocking it. I'm saying that's the way it is. And if you're 00:34:00.210 --> 00:34:08.210 not able to use your passion to stay current and do whatever is necessary 00:34:09.829 --> 00:34:14.006 to hit the moving target, you're not going to be successful because the 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:17.506 target is always moving. 00:34:17.539 --> 00:34:23.727 Very good. So since you hung up your spikes as professor, um, what what 00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:29.427 what what do you do to keep yourself engaged? Uh, what do you do as a 00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:34.166 retiree? Well, I mentioned earlier that we had this faculty and staff noon 00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:42.199 hour basketball group that met in In pe west and uh well our son who is a 00:34:43.369 --> 00:34:49.537 professor there is taking my place because in 67 because of my shoulder 00:34:49.570 --> 00:34:55.367 injury, I couldn't play basketball anymore, although I did make a three 00:34:55.400 --> 00:35:03.017 point shot for a free ticket on us airways that in A. S. U. Halftime once. 00:35:03.050 --> 00:35:09.267 So I was able to do that. But I play golf now. I can play golf. I I walk 00:35:09.300 --> 00:35:13.657 regularly. But mostly I still write, I still write on all of my books. 00:35:13.690 --> 00:35:18.586 I've been able to do a video program for exercise breaks in elementary 00:35:18.619 --> 00:35:22.907 schools that I never would have been able to do had I not been retired 00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:27.586 because it just is such a time consuming thing. I still give workshops. I 00:35:27.619 --> 00:35:35.619 still an active professionally and yes, I always will be very good. So 00:35:37.179 --> 00:35:42.827 last question is what what comment, what you have or any key story that 00:35:42.860 --> 00:35:46.606 you would like to add, that we haven't really talked about. What's the one 00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:49.307 thing that you want to convey? 00:35:49.340 --> 00:35:55.597 I I don't know if there's anything um that I'd really like to add in terms 00:35:55.630 --> 00:36:03.630 of a specific thing other than it in my work with youth fitness. Um we bob 00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:09.807 and I encountered a lot of resistance to what is called the health fitness 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:16.287 movement um, Back in the 40s and 50s. A lot of the fitness movement, 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:21.316 especially youth witness was related to war. You know, got to get these 00:36:21.349 --> 00:36:26.177 men fit for war and it didn't include women, the sports programs for, 00:36:26.210 --> 00:36:33.836 we're not inclusive for women and being de facto women's athletic director 00:36:33.869 --> 00:36:39.847 at Kansas state by de facto meaning all the coaches were in my department 00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:44.347 and I had to get them some salary. And so I had to tell them to you know 00:36:44.380 --> 00:36:50.046 get in coaching or get in physical education but you can't do both. And 00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:56.807 when I came to A. S. U. You know, we had they had some ah similar kinds of 00:36:56.840 --> 00:37:02.927 uh problems. So I wrote a book back then called the athletic snowball. And 00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:09.037 what it was about is the fact that if you as a academic get in the way of 00:37:09.070 --> 00:37:13.316 an athletic snowball and you're going to get rolled over. And that was 00:37:13.349 --> 00:37:20.467 largely a result of my experience as a ah you know, trying to get the 00:37:20.500 --> 00:37:27.367 women's athletic programs separated from the academic programs side of the 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:34.217 program. So, you know along the line I've I've fought battles with the 00:37:34.250 --> 00:37:39.736 President's Council on Youth Fitness even though I Did their newsletter 00:37:39.769 --> 00:37:44.907 for 13 years because their view of fitness was more performance for sports 00:37:44.940 --> 00:37:50.827 and Bob in my view is more health-related fitness for everyone. So you 00:37:50.860 --> 00:37:53.977 know, you gotta pick your battles. But if you pick them and you have a 00:37:54.010 --> 00:38:00.287 passion then you fight for them. And as it turns out now women's athletics 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:06.287 which went to the Ai w are now part of the N. C. A. Who didn't want them. 00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:10.706 So you know that battle got resolved over the years and interesting and 00:38:10.739 --> 00:38:13.787 enough fitness ground which is a health related fitness test that we 00:38:13.820 --> 00:38:18.287 worked on all those years, is now the President's Council test. That's 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:21.186 very satisfying. 00:38:21.219 --> 00:38:24.887 Well thank you so much for taking the time to share your history and your 00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:30.936 experiences. Thank you for to ask me the questions I appreciate very good. 00:38:30.969 --> 00:38:38.186 Thank you. Related to the moves that took place where most of those moves 00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:46.219 After 2002, where he went to the East Campus and then later to downtown. 00:38:47.219 --> 00:38:53.637 What effect on the programs did those moves have, were they um rather a 00:38:53.670 --> 00:38:57.416 negative feeling when you first started move and then they worked out some 00:38:57.449 --> 00:39:04.526 good things happen. Well. Uh let me answer that in a couple of ways. Um 00:39:04.559 --> 00:39:08.356 and I'll just repeat the question in case they didn't pick it up on the 00:39:08.389 --> 00:39:11.586 mic when um 00:39:11.619 --> 00:39:16.936 the moves were made in the polytechnic campus was was developed. And then 00:39:16.969 --> 00:39:23.887 also the downtown campus, all of our programs were on the Tempe campus 00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:31.546 and over time after dance in recreation and athletics moved out, three 00:39:31.579 --> 00:39:36.637 different channels emerged. There was the kinesiology, liberal arts 00:39:36.670 --> 00:39:41.767 program, there was exercise and wellness, which was fitness management and 00:39:41.800 --> 00:39:47.986 that sort of thing, and fitness leadership and physical education. So 00:39:48.019 --> 00:39:56.019 during the Late 90s, attention developed between the sciences and the 00:39:56.699 --> 00:40:03.157 professions and the professions decided that they would explore 00:40:03.190 --> 00:40:07.077 opportunities elsewhere meaning exercise and wellness and physical 00:40:07.110 --> 00:40:14.820 education they visited. And I was part of that with Bill Stone and others. 00:40:14.909 --> 00:40:16.909 The polytechnic campus chuck back us. Uh And and he entertained it and we 00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:27.376 were exploring the possibility of making that move. Both physical 00:40:27.409 --> 00:40:32.646 education and exercise and wellness decided to make the move to the 00:40:32.679 --> 00:40:39.577 polytechnic ASU East at the time. Um And 00:40:39.610 --> 00:40:47.610 at that time both were going to move in at the last minute. Ah Okay. 00:40:47.710 --> 00:40:53.796 Physical education was denied the opportunity to go and so exercise and 00:40:53.829 --> 00:40:59.717 wellness went by itself. And the old N. C. O. Club became the place where 00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:04.706 the program laboratories and so forth were so kinesiology and physical 00:41:04.739 --> 00:41:11.617 education stayed on the Tempe campus. So I moved out in 2000 and one. So I 00:41:11.650 --> 00:41:18.276 was only there for a few years. The bulk of my work, my colleague and 00:41:18.309 --> 00:41:23.497 research mates stayed on on the Tempe campus. And then a couple of years 00:41:23.530 --> 00:41:31.530 later they did make the move two east and so but as a separate unit 00:41:32.050 --> 00:41:38.177 originally they were gonna be together. So then after I retired in 2005 00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:44.117 and I'm not I can't tell you the exact date. Um They moved to the downtown 00:41:44.150 --> 00:41:51.126 campus meaning exercise and wellness and the combined nutrition and 00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:56.827 exercise and wellness PhD because nutrition had made the move downtown the 00:41:56.860 --> 00:42:03.876 year before. Um So in answer to the question, there was tension, there was 00:42:03.909 --> 00:42:08.526 tension between the sciences and the professional programs. There was 00:42:08.559 --> 00:42:13.936 tension about resources. You know what resources would stay and what 00:42:13.969 --> 00:42:19.586 resources would go. Graduate assistantship, faculty lines, equipment and 00:42:19.619 --> 00:42:25.827 so forth. Um, kinesiology stayed on the Tempe campus. The exercise science 00:42:25.860 --> 00:42:32.506 PhD stayed on the Tempe campus. But ultimately, um, that program dissolved 00:42:32.539 --> 00:42:37.756 and merged in across the Tempe campus and faculty were placed in other 00:42:37.789 --> 00:42:43.316 academic units. And only a small part of that unit went downtown to be 00:42:43.349 --> 00:42:48.407 part of the exercise and wellness health promotion program. Health 00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:54.037 promotion. It was a new major that we introduced when we moved to east 00:42:54.070 --> 00:43:01.626 Kathy jones and pam swamp. And I, uh, along with bill murmurs, help 00:43:01.659 --> 00:43:06.936 develop that. And the health science was largely Bill murmurs is uh, thing 00:43:06.969 --> 00:43:11.247 and it's now a major program, those both of those health promotion and 00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:16.856 health sciences downtown. So in answer to the question, um, there were a 00:43:16.889 --> 00:43:21.467 lot of dynamics that went on. Uh, part of the move was because the need 00:43:21.500 --> 00:43:25.497 for programs to go to these new campuses. But part of the reason for the 00:43:25.530 --> 00:43:29.546 move was that there would be a better placement in a greater chance for 00:43:29.579 --> 00:43:34.217 success for some of these programs elsewhere. And I would say probably 00:43:34.250 --> 00:43:39.197 autonomy for these programs was a major factor, the ability to make your 00:43:39.230 --> 00:43:45.097 own decisions, which is not unlike why dance moved or recreation moved or 00:43:45.130 --> 00:43:50.236 any of them. And, and so the good news is that again, I think if you look 00:43:50.269 --> 00:43:55.376 at the university as a whole and look at this as an incubator. Think of 00:43:55.409 --> 00:44:03.409 how many programs still exists across this campus that emerged from this 00:44:03.590 --> 00:44:09.236 collective unit. Right, What's interesting, We didn't interview page 00:44:09.269 --> 00:44:14.597 Mulholland. We've interviewed other people who used to run with paige at 00:44:14.630 --> 00:44:22.557 noontime and I think they had lockers over there in West Jim, 00:44:22.590 --> 00:44:26.626 jerry, McSheffrey and Mike, 00:44:26.659 --> 00:44:34.659 who was the library guy. He had a name like your event. No, that was, 00:44:34.690 --> 00:44:41.247 he's a good friend of mine. I guess. I'm getting old. I know exactly the 00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:45.557 interview. Vladimir. Yeah, 00:44:45.590 --> 00:44:49.267 but page was, 00:44:49.300 --> 00:44:53.537 I mean he was really out of shape and he got into that program and we did 00:44:53.570 --> 00:44:57.767 the fitness testing on him, you know, comprehensive testing every year. 00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:04.956 And he was just huge advocate. And As you know, he lived to be into his 00:45:04.989 --> 00:45:12.989 70s and he far outlived any other member of his family or generations 00:45:13.309 --> 00:45:17.796 before you probably helped him live. 00:45:17.829 --> 00:45:23.157 Well, he always gave he and mary Beth often gave me credit for that and 00:45:23.190 --> 00:45:27.586 I'll take it. But you know, he did it, you know, and you can, you can help 00:45:27.619 --> 00:45:34.227 people and you can lead them to something that he, he was very steadfast 00:45:34.260 --> 00:45:38.747 in his commitment. Plus he was a responder as we say, as he was a 00:45:38.780 --> 00:45:42.606 respondent. How about you gonna say anything about bob feller or Boudreaux 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:47.956 ? Well, I could say something about that because I had that. That was one 00:45:47.989 --> 00:45:50.856 of my great 00:45:50.889 --> 00:45:55.956 losses in life because when we went to 00:45:55.989 --> 00:46:03.367 Arizona Tucson to go to school. My mom actually worked as a car hop at the 00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:10.017 Ticktock driving in Tucson, my dad was Tiktok was a bill collector while 00:46:10.050 --> 00:46:15.316 he was going to school for rubens furniture company. And in Tucson and I 00:46:15.349 --> 00:46:21.597 played baseball and I had this card collection at home in Ohio. And when 00:46:21.630 --> 00:46:27.617 we moved into Mexico, I never went back to Ohio for years. And when I did 00:46:27.650 --> 00:46:33.026 go back, my cards were gone and I had lou boudreau and bobby Avila and 00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:38.787 luke easter and larry doby dale Mitchell and Jim Hagen and bob feller an 00:46:38.820 --> 00:46:45.936 early win and mike Garcia and bob lemon and uh, you know, I, you know, I 00:46:45.969 --> 00:46:51.566 knew all of the Cleveland indians and I got and when they used to train 00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:58.546 out and casa grande, I think the Franciscan down there, they would come 00:46:58.579 --> 00:47:03.427 from here through Albuquerque and play an exhibition game with the Giants 00:47:03.460 --> 00:47:09.486 on their way way back east and I got a foul ball off of the bat of Darrell 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:16.287 spencer from the Giants and I never knew who he was. He was probably a 00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:20.436 young guy that, you know, goes to training camp and and doesn't doesn't 00:47:20.469 --> 00:47:24.927 make it, but that was major, I have a bob feller signed baseball, but it's 00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:32.407 from my brother signed And how did uh Odenkirk, Jim Odenkirk fit into this. 00:47:32.440 --> 00:47:35.887 He was, 00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:42.677 that's interesting because Jim was, has he been interviewed? Okay, Jim was 00:47:42.710 --> 00:47:48.947 on the, yeah, Jim was on the faculty at Bowling green when I was on the 00:47:48.980 --> 00:47:52.936 faculty at the University of Toledo. So that's where I first met him and 00:47:52.969 --> 00:47:58.017 we used to go down to Ohio State, which is where he did his PhD and they 00:47:58.050 --> 00:48:03.456 did a college conference for the whole state there. And so I knew Jim from 00:48:03.489 --> 00:48:09.916 that. Um and then he was 00:48:09.949 --> 00:48:16.197 in the department, there was a chair of health education and the chair of 00:48:16.230 --> 00:48:22.316 physical education and they weren't really chairs, they were things that 00:48:22.349 --> 00:48:26.997 they were designated. So Jim was the coordinator of the physical education 00:48:27.030 --> 00:48:33.236 side of it. So I had contacted and said if you ever have a position open, 00:48:33.269 --> 00:48:38.497 I'd be interested in getting back to the southwest. So I knew him and he, 00:48:38.530 --> 00:48:46.530 his thing back in the day was more administration. Uh and then he went 00:48:46.860 --> 00:48:54.686 back and got his masters and history at N A U I think. And uh but then he 00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:58.807 just finished his recent book about the Cleveland indians and just came 00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:04.456 out, moved, moved to the United States in 1978. 00:49:04.489 --> 00:49:08.057 I was gonna come here for just one year. I got my masters, it's like a 00:49:08.090 --> 00:49:14.427 college and it's a good new york and I was going to go back and get a job 00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:18.686 serving the army at the time, there was still a mandatory draft and a 00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:23.630 couple of things happened and here I am, I'm stillhere