WEBVTT

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Today is Friday April 19, 2019. We're conducting an interview for the

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Arizona State University retirees
association video history project. We

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are located today in the A. S. U.
Community services building. I'm Gary

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Kraehenbuehl a former faculty member
and administrator at A. S. U. And

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people here today and supported this
project are john McIntosh on the

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camera, roger carter on audio linda
vance coy, Director of the project and

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David Shatz Lee chair of the video
history project.

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Now I'd like an interview if he would
to introduce himself and tell us uh

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the position he held when he left or
maybe the positions you held and then

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the position you were in when you left
A. S. U. Okay, I'm brian Foster. I

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came to a. s. U. in 1980. Um and I was
here for 14 years, I was a couple

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of years. I came in, the anthropology
department was for a couple of years

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, I was an associate professor in
anthro and then I Went on to become

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chair of the Department for four years
And the job I never wanted. But

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that pushed into it because the chair
left and nobody else wanted it. And

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then I became then I was nominated for
a graduate dean job and and wasn't

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very interested in that either. But I
ended up getting that too. And so I

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was graduate dean for eight years and
left in 1994

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brian, would you tell us a little bit
about your early life uh where you

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were born and raised and a little
about your family life. Well kind of

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complicated. Um I grew up in a little
town in northern Illinois Town of

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about 5000 people about halfway
between Chicago and the quad cities. Uh

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And um uh well we had a tough time. My
dad had a business that failed and

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um And I ended up, when I graduated
from high school, I was a good high

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school student. I always wanted to go
to college, but my dad had quit

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school in seventh grade and and mother
had gone to a tiny little school

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with 20 students or something and it
was, you know, I always wanted to go

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to college, but I couldn't because I
ended up having to support the family

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because his dad's business failing.
Anyway, I didn't get to undergraduate

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school until my late 20s. And then you
know, kind of took off from there.

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I went to northern Illinois, had a
fire and casualty insurance agency in

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Dixon Illinois, Ronald Reagan's
hometown. And so um you know, that's sort

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of where it came from. Um been um tell
the story about how you ended up in

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higher education. I like that story.
Well, like I say, I just wanted to go

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to college and in fact, you know, I
had actually a, I was a good high

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school student like I say, and and

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two years ago I had this moment that
made me almost cry, I ran across my

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high school yearbook and opened it up
and a letter fell out of it and it

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was my acceptance letter from the
university of Chicago. And of course I

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wasn't able to go because I was
supporting the family at the time. But

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anyway, um I hadn't ended up with the
fire and casualty insurance agency

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like I said, and uh one day I was
settling a claim in a little town about

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halfway between Dekalb where northern
Illinois university is and Dixon.

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And And I remember I was on route 51
facing north Uh right around 30 and

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if I turned left I went back to home
to Dixon. If I turned right, I went

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to dekalb to take a night class and
try to start something, ended up

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turning right and uh ended up going to
Dekalb and found the admissions

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office, I'm not even sure how I did
that because I probably didn't even

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know what admissions was, but but
anyway, I found the admissions office

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and there was this incredibly, really
supportive, helpful encouraging

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person in the admissions office and I
left two hours later, a full time

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student. And uh and without, you know,
had no planning whatsoever. And so

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I had this business and I commuted for
about a year and a half from from

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Dixon where my business was and of
course my business didn't do well to

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say the least, but when I finally sold
it I moved to Dekalb, I worked 48

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hours a week as a night clerk in a
hotel because I had no money as a

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student but you know it all kind of
worked out and and I nobody could have

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predicted. I mean the first course I
signed up for was anthropology

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because I didn't know what it was and
now I'm an anthropologist and uh I

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was an anthro miner and a history
major because they didn't have an

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anthropology major. But you know it's
really

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Well one I'll add one other kind of uh
one other little note to this uh

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when I grow up I was a good student
but like I said working 48 hours a

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week, I wasn't exactly part of student
life and that sort of thing which

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actually will play a role in some of
the things I'll talk about because I

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never had a kind of what you call a
standard undergraduate experience. But

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um anyway uh when I was graduating I
was I had like my G. P. A. Was like

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1/10 of a point below the highest one.
I was second highest in the class

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and and two I had two mentors, one in
anthro and one in history and they

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both nominated me for Woodrow Wilson
fellowship and I didn't know what a

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fellowship was and accept that it had
something to with money and I uh I

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ended up you know that was interesting
because I wasn't sure what I was

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going to do after I graduated I didn't
even know what graduate school was

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really. I mean sort of but not really.
And so this was kind of interesting.

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And so then I got a call from the
Woodrow Wilson people and they said

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nobody from your institution ever had
one of these so you need to you need

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to take the G. R. E. At least so we
can validate your credentials. And so

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I didn't know what the Grd was and I
looked into it, it was too late to

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take it. And so I just I gave up. But
then it turned out I ended up

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getting the fellowship and I was able
to pretty much go anywhere I wanted

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to to graduate school. So just you
know but just it's a random walk you

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know that's the way my whole career
has been. As you'll see just a random

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walk we'll continue to walk for us uh
then about your graduate training

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and so on up to the time that you came
to A. S. U. Well one of the things

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that happened when I was in the night
clerk in the hotel was retrained

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Peace Corps trainees that we're going
to go to Thailand. And so that's why

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I did research in Thailand for two
years. So that was my introduction to

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Thailand all very planned again you
know just like everything else. And uh

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but anyway um I ended up doing my PhD
at the university of michigan um it

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was the best fit for me because they
have one of the best Southeast asia

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programs in the country, but also
arguably the best anthropology program.

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And so it was it was a great fit for
me and I had a great experience at

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michigan and uh did research in
Thailand for a year and a half as part of

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my my ph d finished within five years
and uh and got off in the higher ed.

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But again, you know, I couldn't have
predicted this, you know, 67 years

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before because I didn't even I didn't
even understand what these options

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were, let alone how I do them, you
know continue then with the story of

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where you started your career as a
faculty member and then a little bit

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about uh coming to a. S. U. Who hired
you and what what position you held

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initially and what kind of a
university you found here. Um That's three

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questions. If I forget one of them,
you have to remind me. I

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as I was finishing my dissertation, I
got a call from Suny Binghamton

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which I had never heard of. Uh and uh
and bring up to new york. And uh

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they said we have a one year position
available here and we wonder if

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you'd be interested in it, I have no
idea where they got my name or

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anything. And uh I thought about it a
little and I thought no I don't

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think I want to do a one year
position, I'll wait and try to get a real

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position. So I said no and thank them.
And then a few weeks later I got a

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call and said hey now we have a tenure
track position available, would you

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be willing to take that? So I ended up
taking a tenure track position at

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Suny Binghamton. Never even applied
for a job. It's just crazy. I have no

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idea how they ever found me or
anything and ended up going to Binghamton

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which was at that time a I don't know
it was an emerging university, very

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high high quality um Right a very high
quality institution, very um

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high high quality in all of the sort
of standard measurements, you know of

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you know restrictive admissions and
all of that, we'll get back to the

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restrictiveness issue later but very
high quality and I liked the place

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but it wasn't exactly the sort of
thing, it wasn't the kind of place I

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came from. I mean my my background
didn't fit with the kind of people that

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were Binghamton, they were much more
elite. Um Very many of them from the

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city and but I but I had a good time
there and had some very close friends

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, I was there for eight years and ah
well really became that was how I got

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socialized into being a faculty member
but like I said it wasn't quite

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where I came from. I came from this
little town in northern Illinois and

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that's like a different planet than
new york. And uh so anyway I was there

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for eight years did well and uh had a
very close friend who was a very

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distinguished anthropologist, a guy
named fred plug And Fred left

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Binghamton and came to uh s. U. in
probably about 1978. And so In 1980 and

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he became chair, he was chair of the
Department at issue. And in 1980 he

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recruited me to come here. And that's
how I that's how I got to a S. U. I

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mean it was really a very close
connection with with a friend who was a

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very distinguished anthropologist. And
and so I came here and and this was

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well it was a hugely better fit in a
sense than for me than Binghamton.

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And because it really it served people
like me, which is not what

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Binghamton did. And

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it was large.

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Very much a public university, public
with a capital p really public

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served the state, served the people of
the state all kinds of people, not

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just elite people. And I really
related to all of that. And that that kind

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of defined in many ways my time at a.
S. U. Was was coming into that

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environment which was so meaningful to
me given my background. And uh are

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there any other thoughts you have
about what A. S. U. Was like other than

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being big and public and accessible
and so on. Were they the main

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characteristics? Or is there anything
else that stood out well and very I

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think I thought it was a very um
accepting social environment as well. And

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there again that worked for me in ways
that didn't work quite as well at

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Binghamton. I mean Binghampton it was
just a little more elite and I just

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didn't come from that kind of the
background and I was just more

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comfortable here put it that way and
in a sort of social sense. And that

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was a big thing for my whole time
here. I had it was socially a really

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great environment for me. And so I
loved it that way. Um The department

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was a good department. That was
another thing. I mean it was a big

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department much bigger than the one at
Binghampton. More diverse and some

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very very strong people. It was all
four sub disciplines were fully

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represented within the department. And
that was a good thing. So yeah it

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was it was just a good fit in general.
And you said fred was the

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department chair that brought you
here. Who are the other people sort of

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up the line at that time? Well you
know, I don't remember some of their

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names. I won't even try to do that
because I will I'll be cherry picking

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in some hard way. But it was a like I
said a very diverse group of social

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and cultural anthropologists and
biological and archaeology and some

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linguists and uh it was much more
diverse anthropology department than the

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one of Binghamton and that was a good
thing. How did your career here then

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progress? Um you, did you come as an
associate professor? I came as

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associate, right. And well, two years
after I came fred decided to leave

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and moved to new Mexico state. For
what reason? I have no idea. I've never

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ever understood why fred decided to
leave, but he decided to leave. And so

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they did a new chair and there was
really no one in the department that

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wanted to be chair including me. And
uh, but I got kind of pushed towards

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being chair and ended up deciding to
accept the job, not even really quite

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knowing what it was and and did become
chair and and what year would that

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have been? It would have been 82 82.
So guido wagon he hired me I think

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and he would have been still the Dean
in 82 I think. Yeah, but it was end

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of 82 I think uh you know, it was his
successor that I worked with Sam

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kirkpatrick that I worked with. But
uh, well, and then, you know, he was

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here what for seven years 66. Yeah, so
he was there for my whole time as

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chair and the ah my naivete and
getting into this chair position was

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boundless. I had no clue. I mean I I
remember an incident for instance, it

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just ah it sort of shaped my my sense
of being chair. But I was in a

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meeting with the uh with the other
chairs in arts and science and there

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was something going on with the dean
or with somebody that I can't

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remember what the issue was. But
anyway, they were trying to figure out

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how to deal with it and and my take as
as a naive new chair was, well,

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well we'll just we'll just resist and
do whatever we want. And of course

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they just rolled their eyes.

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But it was, you know, it's one of
those kinds of you know moments, you

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know where I really kind of began to
understand that I was in a much more

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complicated job than I had any idea.
And uh and I learned to be chair and

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and you know in some ways my business
background and other things were

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actually helpful. I mean I knew how to
manage money for instance and

00:15:49.289 --> 00:15:57.289
things like that. But uh but I I, you
know, I got into being chair and it

00:15:57.460 --> 00:16:04.337
wasn't my life's desire, you know to
be a chair. But but I think it went

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well and

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well and then four years later, like I
said the earlier the I was

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nominated to be graduate dean. And uh
I mean I really didn't know what

00:16:18.009 --> 00:16:22.136
that was about either and I wasn't
interested at all. But I have this

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memory of vague memory. Well in some
ways it's it's it's not vague at all.

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But I don't remember even who was
present but my wife and I were up north

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in some some little area for a long
weekend just having a good fun weekend.

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And and I would have been nominated
for this job and I ended up talking

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with the friends that I was there with
about it and I was not very

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interested in. And somehow they kind
of convinced me that maybe I had to

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think about it. So I came back and
eventually decided to go ahead and then

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throw my name in the in the game and
ended up getting the job as graduate

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dean. And again I had very little idea
what the heck I was getting into.

00:17:06.130 --> 00:17:12.306
But uh but that interestingly worked
out and I ended up I ended up loving

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that job. And in a lot of ways the
graduate dean job I was graduate dean

00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:19.286
for eight years. And in a lot of ways
that graduate dean job was my

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favorite job I ever had. And one of
the things that I liked so much about

00:17:23.930 --> 00:17:27.697
it and again this has something to do
with my time at A. S. U. But one of

00:17:27.730 --> 00:17:33.207
the things I liked so much about the
graduate dean job was that You were

00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:37.016
in touch with the whole university,
you know and you could sort of see the

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whole university from 20,000 ft level
and see how all the pieces fit

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together And all that was really
exciting to me. I mean that and that will

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come back to this maybe later, but
that's just the way I'm wired. You know

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, my brain is wired and I'm not a
detail or a fax person down in the weeds

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manager or anything. I'm more a sort
of 30,000 ft manager that my, what

00:17:59.170 --> 00:18:03.336
I'm best at is kind of fitting all the
pieces together and having a vision

00:18:03.369 --> 00:18:07.217
and that sort of thing. That's, that's
what I'm good at. And the graduate

00:18:07.250 --> 00:18:14.766
dean job had this big broad
institutional focus, but it didn't didn't bury

00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:19.806
you in the weeds of running the darn
place in the same way. Say that a

00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:23.127
provost job or a dean's job.

00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.637
But anyway, I loved that job. It was,
it was a great job as department

00:18:26.670 --> 00:18:31.756
chair. And and then as graduate dean
were there events that stand out in

00:18:31.789 --> 00:18:37.637
your memory that uh seemed important
at the time or people that shaped how

00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:43.336
you saw things or that uh stick out in
your memory. Well, one of the

00:18:43.369 --> 00:18:49.657
things when I was chair, one of the
things that really sticks out in my

00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:54.526
memory in the anthropology department,
we had a museum and the museum was

00:18:54.559 --> 00:19:00.306
kind of a mess. And uh and it also
had, I mean it just wasn't very well

00:19:00.339 --> 00:19:04.506
exhibits weren't very well done. and
there were some sort of serious

00:19:04.539 --> 00:19:10.316
issues on on heritage preservation and
that sort of thing that the

00:19:10.349 --> 00:19:13.657
university had gotten into, that the
department had gotten into through

00:19:13.690 --> 00:19:18.467
the museum collections. And uh and
working through all of that became very

00:19:18.500 --> 00:19:22.236
interesting. And we actually I think
made some huge progress on improving

00:19:22.269 --> 00:19:26.417
the quality of the museum, increasing
number of visitors and settling all

00:19:26.450 --> 00:19:33.667
of these uh these problems with the
without the human remains and and

00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:38.326
antiquities had been managed. And that
was that was very that was very

00:19:38.359 --> 00:19:43.357
satisfying. It was tough stuff. I
mean, very technical, difficult things,

00:19:43.390 --> 00:19:50.006
but we I think came out of that well,
so that was one thing it was,

00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:54.847
but I think was a very positive
outcome as chair. Another thing that was a

00:19:54.880 --> 00:20:00.766
very positive outcome as chair was I
kept my Binghamton ties going and

00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:06.627
hired Chuck Redmond who came from
Binghamton also and chuck you probably

00:20:06.660 --> 00:20:10.246
all know chuck, I mean he's been
around now for a long time since probably

00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:18.177
about 19 oh gee 1983 or four

00:20:18.210 --> 00:20:22.607
and you know, and he's had a big
impact here and he's and he's still

00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:27.326
around and he was he was a great hire
chuck's superstar. He's really,

00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.707
really good

00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:34.296
in the graduate school, a couple of
things, stick out. Do you want me to

00:20:34.329 --> 00:20:40.217
go on and talk about remember that,
that I think were really important one

00:20:40.250 --> 00:20:45.336
was when I first got there literally,
I mean just barely walked in the

00:20:45.369 --> 00:20:50.006
room, It turned out that somehow the
admissions process had just gone

00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:55.256
completely berserk. I mean it just
wasn't working at all and we didn't

00:20:55.289 --> 00:20:59.217
have any graduate students coming in
for the following year, It was this

00:20:59.250 --> 00:21:03.927
was in the spring and it was getting
late and uh and I can't remember what

00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:09.597
the exact details were, but the whole
system just broke and so we had, we

00:21:09.630 --> 00:21:15.006
had to do something really fast and
really, really have a big impact and

00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:19.066
and so we did two things. First of
all, I just told him to admit everybody

00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:24.437
that applied because we just needed to
get students which which turned out

00:21:24.470 --> 00:21:27.607
to work fine because we ended up with
a good class. I mean it was really

00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:31.927
interesting, but the other thing we
did and this this had a longer term

00:21:31.960 --> 00:21:39.960
impact was I set up a continuous
improvement program, a formal continuous

00:21:40.289 --> 00:21:44.576
improvement program to take a look at
at what was wrong with the system.

00:21:44.609 --> 00:21:50.756
And um and we totally redesigned the
admission system and we remember one

00:21:50.789 --> 00:21:54.927
of the problems was that people could
never get on the phone call, you

00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.036
could never talk to anybody because
all the phones were busy and they just

00:21:58.069 --> 00:22:03.107
ended up getting put it on hold
forever. We we did a And an improvement

00:22:03.140 --> 00:22:08.667
project on telephone on the telephones
and we we our goal was something

00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:13.427
like a maximum 15 2nd weight or
something like that, which we achieved.

00:22:13.460 --> 00:22:18.597
And uh anyway working through this, we
established this this culture of

00:22:18.630 --> 00:22:22.907
continuous improvement and in a formal
sense that I think was really,

00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:29.296
really valuable and really helped the
operations and not just admissions

00:22:29.329 --> 00:22:33.127
but all the operations in the graduate
school, it was a very very very

00:22:33.160 --> 00:22:38.026
successful. Do you recall the people
above you in the chain of command,

00:22:38.059 --> 00:22:41.776
who the provost were during your
different stages and so on? Yeah, well

00:22:41.809 --> 00:22:47.266
when I came and was hired by fred fred
was my boss. And and frankly at

00:22:47.299 --> 00:22:50.556
that point, like I said, I was pretty
clueless about administration and

00:22:50.589 --> 00:22:55.256
all, I doubt if I even knew who the
dean was at that time um or the

00:22:55.289 --> 00:23:00.667
provost um probably knew who the you
know the president was, but not not

00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:04.967
that I wouldn't have known what a
provost is and I said literally I

00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:12.746
wouldn't have and but then when I was
hired for the graduate dean job um

00:23:12.779 --> 00:23:18.637
like you say, I think it was guido
that hired me, but then I really worked

00:23:18.670 --> 00:23:21.187
um

00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:26.197
provost for Jack until and then for
Dick peck for a little while and then

00:23:26.230 --> 00:23:31.387
four course for milk and uh so there's
quite a bit of turnover and all of

00:23:31.420 --> 00:23:35.697
these higher level jobs, Suada was
president when I came and then of

00:23:35.730 --> 00:23:42.086
course Russ and then well then acting
uh Dick for a little bit acting and

00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:47.907
then six months or something like
that. And then of course laddie laddie.

00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:51.437
So there's quite a bit of turnover in
all of those positions and those

00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:57.187
were all people that I had relations
with. Um the other was Dick pecs

00:23:57.220 --> 00:24:01.397
still at New Mexico when you uh were
there as provost. He was still living

00:24:01.430 --> 00:24:05.226
in New Mexico but was no longer active
at the university. And actually he

00:24:05.259 --> 00:24:09.677
and I did kind of disconnect. I mean
did kind of reconnect. He lives in

00:24:09.710 --> 00:24:13.736
proceedings very near actually a very
close friend of mine. And and we've

00:24:13.769 --> 00:24:18.427
reconnected several times. Not
nonetheless not in the last four or five

00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:23.326
years but reconnected several times.
Dick peck used to like to say talking

00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:28.127
about turnover that when he was hired
to be provost, he came and a week

00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.756
later rushed to step down, which he
said he always thought was an

00:24:31.789 --> 00:24:36.627
overreaction.

00:24:36.660 --> 00:24:43.566
Are there people that you especially
enjoyed working with or that uh made

00:24:43.599 --> 00:24:49.187
it influenced you in significant ways
you can think of either reported to

00:24:49.220 --> 00:24:55.976
you or that you were just uh sort of
on the same level as you or above you

00:24:56.009 --> 00:25:04.009
in the university? Um You know, very
very diverse set of people. I mean

00:25:05.420 --> 00:25:09.357
I'll start with one that that you
would probably never expect. But it was

00:25:09.390 --> 00:25:15.306
my uh senior assistant in the
anthropology department who was just

00:25:15.339 --> 00:25:19.207
incredibly smart and incredibly

00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:24.927
um capable. She just made everything
work. And and she helped me

00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:30.107
understand what that job was about.
And uh and actually she and I have

00:25:30.140 --> 00:25:35.347
remained in touch all these years.
We're still in touch and uh the name

00:25:35.380 --> 00:25:39.387
incidentally that person is Philomena
bell. Oh yeah I remember that I

00:25:39.420 --> 00:25:43.546
remember absolutely. Yeah. I mean

00:25:43.579 --> 00:25:49.217
did she, yeah she was incredibly
capable, nice person. But she and I have

00:25:49.250 --> 00:25:53.207
stayed in touch all these years.

00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:59.427
I was very inspired by both Ross
nelson and laddie. I thought they both

00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:03.167
and we'll get back to this later. But
I mean they were the visionary kinds

00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:09.107
of leaders that I think positioned ASU
for the kind of incredible

00:26:09.140 --> 00:26:14.157
incredible success, incredible advance
that that A. S. U. Has experienced

00:26:14.190 --> 00:26:20.226
A. S. U. Is is one of a handful of
leaders where higher education is going

00:26:20.259 --> 00:26:24.597
and it's not going where it used to
go. It's really really different but

00:26:24.630 --> 00:26:32.630
they they sort of set the foundation
for that for that new the new A. S. U.

00:26:32.890 --> 00:26:36.776
And the kind of impact that it would
have. And they were able to kind of

00:26:36.809 --> 00:26:41.847
get out of the box out of the out of
all the sacred traditions and

00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.107
everything that burden

00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:49.847
so many universities. Well they're one
of my mantras about this actually

00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:53.536
and and this I think is a very very
important point and it has something

00:26:53.569 --> 00:27:00.357
to do again with my good sense of ASU.
Um If you if you today now looking

00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:06.226
back you look back for the last 10
years at the institutions that are

00:27:06.259 --> 00:27:11.496
really defining the future of higher
education, almost all of them are are

00:27:11.529 --> 00:27:15.887
new and quotes new institutions.
They're they're not the old ones that are

00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:20.897
burdened with centuries of tradition
and uh they're they're the ones that

00:27:20.930 --> 00:27:25.637
that can get out of the box and do
things new. So it's a S. U. It's U. C.

00:27:25.670 --> 00:27:30.506
Irvine, it's George mason, it's
central florida. It's you know, there's a

00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:34.516
there are a bunch of them but not a
whole lot. But there's several of them

00:27:34.549 --> 00:27:39.447
that are really setting the mm hmm
defining the future of higher education

00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:42.957
and I think it's the new institutions
that weren't burdened with all of

00:27:42.990 --> 00:27:48.496
those sacred traditions that are that
are really defining the future and

00:27:48.529 --> 00:27:51.897
the issue is really out in front and
all of that. But again, I go back and

00:27:51.930 --> 00:27:58.927
say that, I think that both Russ
nelson and laddie had that kind of vision

00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:03.316
of getting out of the box and they
were never stuck in with all the

00:28:03.349 --> 00:28:08.147
traditions of what makes prestige in
higher education might be a good idea

00:28:08.180 --> 00:28:12.127
brian um for you to talk about where
you've been since you left a s you

00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:17.907
because your remarks have more
credibility if in the sense that now you've

00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:21.707
been other places and seen the world,
you know, from yet other

00:28:21.740 --> 00:28:25.617
perspectives and very different kinds
of places. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's

00:28:25.650 --> 00:28:32.357
a good point. Um well I was here, I
was here until uh 1994. And then I uh

00:28:32.390 --> 00:28:35.536
like I said a few minutes ago when you
get in a job like the graduate dean

00:28:35.569 --> 00:28:39.647
job, you got headhunters all over you
all the time. And uh and I really

00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:43.796
didn't want to leave, but I ended up
deciding to go and move to university

00:28:43.829 --> 00:28:49.457
of Nebraska Lincoln. I was Arts and
Science Dean there for six years. And

00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:53.357
that again, boy, that was another
year, another world in in several ways.

00:28:53.390 --> 00:28:59.897
I mean, I love I love Nebraska and
loved Lincoln, but University of

00:28:59.930 --> 00:29:04.857
Nebraska is is very different kind of
place again and the arts and Science

00:29:04.890 --> 00:29:08.847
dean job. My goodness. I mean, that
had nothing to do with being graduate

00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:13.907
dean. There's no, there's virtually no
overlap. And so again, here was a

00:29:13.940 --> 00:29:18.066
brand new experience just trying to
learn. I mean, the diversity of the

00:29:18.099 --> 00:29:22.157
disciplines for instance, and the way
people think about things and the

00:29:22.190 --> 00:29:27.707
different disciplines and higher in in
arts and sciences, breathtaking,

00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:34.056
you know, the differences in music and
physics and english and psychology

00:29:34.089 --> 00:29:38.407
, I mean, just to take four, I mean,
they're just so different. It's just

00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:43.447
unbelievable. And so that was I and I
and I found that very interesting

00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:49.877
actually, that diversity of, of
mindset you might call it um was one of

00:29:49.910 --> 00:29:54.286
the things I really enjoyed about the
arts and science experience, but it

00:29:54.319 --> 00:29:58.496
was a very different kind of
experience too in the sense that the

00:29:58.529 --> 00:30:02.697
operational side of it was a huge part
of the job, which wasn't the case

00:30:02.730 --> 00:30:07.226
with the graduate dean job there. I
mean you're dealing with personnel

00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:11.867
issues and very complex curriculum
issues and lots of different

00:30:11.900 --> 00:30:17.207
constituents from all the different
disciplines and and you know, it was

00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:22.266
it was a totally new experience again,
but but a very valuable one. And

00:30:22.299 --> 00:30:30.107
then I went from there in 2000 um to
University of New Mexico as provost

00:30:30.140 --> 00:30:35.657
and and the arts and Science deanship
is a good, is a good preparation for

00:30:35.690 --> 00:30:41.016
a provost job because again, of the
diversity of of different disciplines

00:30:41.049 --> 00:30:45.796
and professions in the in the broader
university that the provost has to

00:30:45.829 --> 00:30:50.296
deal with. They already got a good
introduction to all of that in arts and

00:30:50.329 --> 00:30:56.066
Science and uh and I but new Mexico
was, I don't know if you know anything

00:30:56.099 --> 00:31:00.957
about New Mexico but New Mexico is is
another world from anyplace else in

00:31:00.990 --> 00:31:06.246
the US. I mean it's it's really
different in Northern New Mexico. You may

00:31:06.279 --> 00:31:12.107
not know this Northern New Mexico was
settled In 450 years ago by land

00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:16.756
grants from the Spanish crown. And so
from people from Southern Spain,

00:31:16.789 --> 00:31:20.937
whole villages from Southern Spain
moved there and the the northern

00:31:20.970 --> 00:31:24.796
Northern New Mexico has a
mediterranean culture. It's just a wildly

00:31:24.829 --> 00:31:28.006
different kind of culture, very
different than Southern New Mexico which

00:31:28.039 --> 00:31:34.976
is more like Mexico or southern texas
or southern California. And so that

00:31:35.009 --> 00:31:38.816
was an interesting cultural
environment to be in two. And I have a real

00:31:38.849 --> 00:31:42.776
emotional attachment in New Mexico
actually. But that was incredibly

00:31:42.809 --> 00:31:46.796
interesting job at the intersection of
all of that cultural stuff along

00:31:46.829 --> 00:31:53.207
with. Uh huh. You know the approvals
job being a different job and and and

00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:57.026
I kind of have I was a very
anthropological administrator, I was very

00:31:57.059 --> 00:32:00.996
interested in all these things like
these these big mindset differences

00:32:01.029 --> 00:32:04.647
and cultural differences and all the
you know so it's sort of like

00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:09.667
diversity in a different dimension you
know that and then I went from

00:32:09.700 --> 00:32:16.246
there to the University of Missouri In
2005 as provost which again very

00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:20.667
different kind of more elite kind of
institution has been an au member for

00:32:20.700 --> 00:32:28.536
over 100 years and it's uh it's it's
it's a good place and very diverse

00:32:28.569 --> 00:32:33.036
set of professional programs and
everything very again very interesting

00:32:33.069 --> 00:32:37.417
move. But I but given all of the
background I came to that one I think

00:32:37.450 --> 00:32:42.076
ready to be provost there and that was
given all the other jobs and

00:32:42.109 --> 00:32:45.347
different kinds of institutions I've
been at. Thank you brian that I'm

00:32:45.380 --> 00:32:49.637
glad you carried us forward through
the end of sort of the rest of your

00:32:49.670 --> 00:32:55.907
career and now if you if you come back
and talk a little bit more about

00:32:55.940 --> 00:33:01.217
what you what you see happening now at
a. S. U. And some other places that

00:33:01.250 --> 00:33:07.516
um seems to be leading where higher
education is going. Because you really

00:33:07.549 --> 00:33:11.306
do have a fairly unique perspective. I
would say having been to so many

00:33:11.339 --> 00:33:17.296
different institutions and played
different roles. Um Let me go back to a

00:33:17.329 --> 00:33:21.407
point that I just mentioned briefly,
but I think it's absolutely critical.

00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:29.440
Um the for higher education broadly,
even even outside the Research

00:33:30.170 --> 00:33:38.006
University uh sector uh for higher
education broadly, prestige has been,

00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:43.276
well, it comes from Harvard basically
and prestige is defined prestige

00:33:43.309 --> 00:33:48.207
quality defined by restrictiveness,
right? I mean, how do you know if

00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:53.357
you're a good school, how few people
do you admit? You know that sort of

00:33:53.390 --> 00:34:00.276
thing? And restrictiveness is just is
just at the core of the mindset of

00:34:00.309 --> 00:34:08.309
so much higher end. And what I think
what I think both Russ and laddie

00:34:09.469 --> 00:34:13.986
brought to A. S. U. Was getting out of
that box, that restrictiveness box.

00:34:14.019 --> 00:34:17.927
They were ready to serve people all
kinds of people, not just they were

00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:21.336
ready to serve elite students too, but
they were ready to serve students

00:34:21.369 --> 00:34:28.247
that weren't elite also there and all
kinds of students. And I think I

00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:31.566
think that's one of the really big
things that's going on in higher ed

00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:37.677
today is getting out of this this this
incredibly restrictive way of

00:34:37.710 --> 00:34:42.767
thinking about quality as being
restrictiveness. Um but it's hard to go,

00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:48.727
it's hard to make the case to someone
that um having a student body that

00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:53.827
reflects the the same at a public
university have a student body that

00:34:53.860 --> 00:34:58.956
reflects the state demographics is
almost a definition of failure of of

00:34:58.989 --> 00:35:04.217
not being a high quality institution.
And so uh A. S. U. Has been one of

00:35:04.250 --> 00:35:08.316
the few that's been leading the way to
getting out of that mindset. That

00:35:08.349 --> 00:35:12.436
restrictiveness mindset. I've heard
Michael say that in a very very

00:35:12.469 --> 00:35:19.626
explicit way that um but he's been
told that um organizations like the au

00:35:19.659 --> 00:35:23.477
you know aren't going to be very
interested in A. S. U. Because a sus

00:35:23.510 --> 00:35:28.686
student body reflects the the state
population and state demographic well.

00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:33.677
But that that's an incredible plus in
my view and and in a lot of

00:35:33.710 --> 00:35:36.657
people's view these days that's
different but it's just different from the

00:35:36.690 --> 00:35:42.697
past. So that's that's one of the key
issues that's going on at A. S. U.

00:35:42.730 --> 00:35:47.907
And and and some other institutions.
But only a few. Another thing.

00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:52.727
Another thing let me just absolutely
that's huge. I've talked about how

00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:56.217
different all the disciplines are and
all the you know the different

00:35:56.250 --> 00:35:59.916
different academic fields and
professions and different mindsets and

00:35:59.949 --> 00:36:07.586
everything well from uh that's
produced in most of higher ed. A very very

00:36:07.619 --> 00:36:15.486
strong silo structure everything fits
in a silo and and bursting out of

00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:21.856
that silo that silo structure that
silo mentality is one of the other big

00:36:21.889 --> 00:36:25.526
things that's going on today. And that
takes a lot of different forms

00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:30.197
including of course interdisciplinary
kinds of uh research programs and

00:36:30.230 --> 00:36:35.447
education programs And uh again that
was something I got going here fairly

00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:42.177
early. Uh Some getting out of the
silos. Um And uh and that you find in

00:36:42.210 --> 00:36:48.787
I'd say that's that's about as big uh
about as big an issue as the

00:36:48.820 --> 00:36:54.097
demographic issue. One of the things
that people tend to miss about

00:36:54.130 --> 00:36:58.387
getting out of the silo mentality is
you don't want to get rid of the

00:36:58.420 --> 00:37:03.247
silos. You have to, it's bridging the
silos. That's important. The thing

00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:08.506
that makes interdisciplinary research
and scholarship and and education

00:37:08.539 --> 00:37:12.706
work is bringing together people that
are different and it's the

00:37:12.739 --> 00:37:16.456
differences in the in the different
fields and the different disciplines

00:37:16.489 --> 00:37:21.117
and professions. It's those
differences that create the sparks and and

00:37:21.150 --> 00:37:25.977
create the really big important ideas.
It's one of my mantras is you don't

00:37:26.010 --> 00:37:29.126
learn much talking to people that know
the same thing, you know? You know

00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:32.646
it's you you learned from talking to
people that are different and that's

00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:36.756
what creates the big ideas and so
interdisciplinary things are big. And

00:37:36.789 --> 00:37:41.267
again that was another thing. But
getting out of that that that sacred

00:37:41.300 --> 00:37:47.597
silo mentality was a very very big
issue here at A. S. U. Right?

00:37:47.630 --> 00:37:54.367
Thinking about your time at A. S. U.
Um What were some of the changes that

00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:59.497
stand out that occurred from when you
arrived in 1980 until you until you

00:37:59.530 --> 00:38:06.736
left. Ah were there changes for
example in the interdisciplinary work that

00:38:06.769 --> 00:38:10.197
was going on or the ease with which
that occurred or are there other

00:38:10.230 --> 00:38:15.956
things that stand out in your mind as
being different? I'd say that a

00:38:15.989 --> 00:38:19.517
couple of things, you know, the growth
was huge. That was that was a big

00:38:19.550 --> 00:38:25.847
issue that the university grew. And um
The second thing I think that was

00:38:25.880 --> 00:38:32.006
really really important was as it grew
and it built on its relations with

00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:36.006
the Phoenix community, it got
positioned in the state such that it could

00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:40.706
compete with U. Of a in a way that
hadn't even been thinkable, you know,

00:38:40.739 --> 00:38:48.276
15 years before and and that that
affected everything. So as you became

00:38:48.309 --> 00:38:53.736
competitive and that was a very very
big deal. And so I'd say those are a

00:38:53.769 --> 00:38:59.197
couple of very very important things
that happened the but the other and

00:38:59.230 --> 00:39:03.577
the other and the other thing was
growth in research, growth in research

00:39:03.610 --> 00:39:07.126
and graduate education. I mean those
are those are things that get your

00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:14.396
national recognition and and and A. S.
U. Is over the you know, over the

00:39:14.429 --> 00:39:20.896
years this has grown in and then
amazing degrees but in the last few years

00:39:20.929 --> 00:39:25.586
of course has just taken off. But uh
it's uh that positions the university

00:39:25.619 --> 00:39:31.307
totally differently in the
international scene. I'm reminded of Russ

00:39:31.340 --> 00:39:38.066
nelson who uh was able to say one
year, he called it an rpm year and our

00:39:38.099 --> 00:39:42.497
stood for the Rose bowl and p stood
for the Pulitzer prize, read a double

00:39:42.530 --> 00:39:48.767
on that and m stood for to macarthur
award winners. Um and you know, for

00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:53.666
this place at that time that was that
was pretty significant. Those are

00:39:53.699 --> 00:40:01.699
very, very important national national
connections and connections in in D.

00:40:02.019 --> 00:40:06.736
C. Are really really critical for any,
anything that wants to think of

00:40:06.769 --> 00:40:11.677
itself as a research university. I
think one of the things that I brought

00:40:11.710 --> 00:40:18.137
into the to when I was in the graduate
school as dean, I was extremely

00:40:18.170 --> 00:40:22.686
active in all the big national
associations and it gave a S. U. A kind of

00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:27.637
visibility, just hadn't been there
before. And I mean I was chair of the G.

00:40:27.670 --> 00:40:31.717
R. E board and I was on the tofu board
for a couple of terms and I was

00:40:31.750 --> 00:40:39.276
head of the board for um academic
board for and graduate board for um um

00:40:39.309 --> 00:40:43.657
nostalgic. And so you know, several of
these, a lot of these big national

00:40:43.690 --> 00:40:47.767
organizations being there and being a
presence and being active being on

00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:52.137
the boards, that sort of thing really
gives the institution visibility

00:40:52.170 --> 00:40:56.236
that it that it can't otherwise have
visibility in the higher ed world

00:40:56.269 --> 00:41:00.747
with people that matter. And that has
a huge impact on the ability to get

00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:07.077
grants, the ability to hire people,
you know, just reputation in general,

00:41:07.110 --> 00:41:14.327
very, very major way to make
connections with the federal agencies, which

00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:17.997
is of course the way you get money.
Well, you've given us a good sense of

00:41:18.030 --> 00:41:22.436
the richness of your career in terms
of institutions and positions held

00:41:22.469 --> 00:41:26.227
and so on. It might be fun to hear a
little bit about your administrative

00:41:26.260 --> 00:41:32.086
style as you see it and how you
approach leadership and problem solving.

00:41:32.119 --> 00:41:36.396
Well, my, like I said a little bit
ago, I was very anthropological

00:41:36.429 --> 00:41:42.106
administrator and then I really mean
that in a very explicit way, I mean

00:41:42.139 --> 00:41:44.177
anthropology,

00:41:44.210 --> 00:41:50.977
the mindset of anthropology is to look
at how cultural norms and

00:41:51.010 --> 00:41:54.887
traditions and values and things all
come together and affect how things

00:41:54.920 --> 00:41:59.677
operate and how different people come
together. And

00:41:59.710 --> 00:42:03.267
excuse me. I mean that's the
anthropological mindset in a sense and it's

00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:08.456
very holistic, it looks at how the
whole big institutions come together,

00:42:08.489 --> 00:42:12.947
that sort of thing. And that's been
the way I've, I've than an

00:42:12.980 --> 00:42:16.816
administrator. I've always looked at
how to bring the pieces together to

00:42:16.849 --> 00:42:22.867
make a coherent institution, a
coherent college, whatever.

00:42:22.900 --> 00:42:26.557
But how do you, how do you bring the
pieces together, make them function

00:42:26.590 --> 00:42:30.586
and add up to more than the sum of the
parts. That's been my style for

00:42:30.619 --> 00:42:35.637
administration, always. And I've not
been down in the weeds kind of

00:42:35.670 --> 00:42:41.236
administrator. So I'm and of course
you still have to mean the operations

00:42:41.269 --> 00:42:45.017
still have to work. I mean people have
to get paid and you gotta, you

00:42:45.050 --> 00:42:49.077
gotta, you know, keep the buildings in
good shape and you've got to buy

00:42:49.110 --> 00:42:52.787
the equipment you need and and you
gotta hire the people you need and all

00:42:52.820 --> 00:42:56.787
that, all of those operations are
incredibly important, but they're

00:42:56.820 --> 00:43:01.736
important because they support this
bigger view. So I was a very, very

00:43:01.769 --> 00:43:06.347
strong delegator. I mean I delegated
the operations really, really

00:43:06.380 --> 00:43:12.956
strongly, I hired really good people
and I I didn't try to mess around

00:43:12.989 --> 00:43:17.736
with their jobs, they did their jobs
and and

00:43:17.769 --> 00:43:23.006
we created an environment such that
all of those people, those those

00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:27.856
administrators that were that that I
delegated all of the operations to

00:43:27.889 --> 00:43:32.526
would come together in staff meetings
and and we'd talk and everybody,

00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:37.816
everybody knew what everybody else was
doing. Uh We and we always focused

00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:42.646
on how it all supported the big
vision, the big broad vision of how all

00:43:42.679 --> 00:43:46.586
the pieces fit together. That was the,
that was the way the staff meetings

00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:50.896
worked, how do things fit together and
we had a culture, we created a

00:43:50.929 --> 00:43:54.677
culture where people could come
together and challenge each other and and

00:43:54.710 --> 00:43:58.657
have an argument and leave friends
because there was trust and they all

00:43:58.690 --> 00:44:03.977
had bought into this idea that what it
was all about was this big vision

00:44:04.010 --> 00:44:09.327
of how all the parts fit together and
you know, their job was to make all

00:44:09.360 --> 00:44:13.876
the different parts work and and fit
together. And that was sort of my

00:44:13.909 --> 00:44:19.347
dynamic senses, that was my kind of my
administration style. Now that

00:44:19.380 --> 00:44:22.916
doesn't mean, I mean I had to have
some of course be informed at some

00:44:22.949 --> 00:44:28.197
level about the operations. But but
running things was not my style,

00:44:28.230 --> 00:44:33.077
that's just not what it seems to me
like. Um The anthropological approach

00:44:33.110 --> 00:44:36.657
plus your business experience made a
nice marriage in a way. I think

00:44:36.690 --> 00:44:39.177
that's right. I think the business
experience actually was a good

00:44:39.210 --> 00:44:42.606
contributor to some of this. Let me go
back just to give an example of

00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:46.927
something I think brings things
together like this. One of the projects

00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:51.586
that we did when I was a graduate dean
here at A S. U. That I really felt

00:44:51.619 --> 00:44:58.146
strongly about was it came somebody
did some research and found that none

00:44:58.179 --> 00:45:03.727
of the local hispanic students were
they a lot of them would transfer from

00:45:03.760 --> 00:45:06.597
the community college, they go to the
community colleges, they transfer

00:45:06.630 --> 00:45:10.336
here to a four year degree, but they
never went on to graduate school or

00:45:10.369 --> 00:45:14.217
do a PhD. That just didn't happen. And
the question from the graduate

00:45:14.250 --> 00:45:18.006
school point of view was how could you
get them engaged? And so that some

00:45:18.039 --> 00:45:22.526
of them, so we started a program that
worked not just with the students,

00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:26.997
but with this the high level students
in the community colleges for the

00:45:27.030 --> 00:45:32.927
local students. Um and with their
parents To engage the parents on the

00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:37.936
possibility they go beyond the four
year degree. And this program went on

00:45:37.969 --> 00:45:43.396
for a few years when I was in graduate
school. And interestingly several

00:45:43.429 --> 00:45:47.177
years after I left, I was talking to
somebody from here that said that at

00:45:47.210 --> 00:45:51.236
the graduation that year there have
been three or four local hispanic

00:45:51.269 --> 00:45:54.347
students that have graduated with phds
and every one of them had come from

00:45:54.380 --> 00:45:59.477
that program, but an interesting kind
of, you know, it's an interesting

00:45:59.510 --> 00:46:01.816
kind of way of bringing these things
together, you know, the demographics

00:46:01.849 --> 00:46:07.097
, the operations, uh you know, all of
this stuff came together and that

00:46:07.130 --> 00:46:09.617
programs seem to actually kind of
work, I don't know what happened to the

00:46:09.650 --> 00:46:16.316
program, but Uh huh. It was, I thought
just an interesting example. Sure.

00:46:16.349 --> 00:46:24.349
I'm curious your life has been spent
mostly with um live instruction. Um

00:46:27.059 --> 00:46:31.367
but of course there's a big move now
for distance learning. Do you have

00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:37.296
any thoughts about, about that? Uh
from from the places you've been and

00:46:37.329 --> 00:46:42.956
what you see happening? I think
distance learning is an important um an

00:46:42.989 --> 00:46:49.477
important service to offer. Um I don't
see it necessarily as a substitute

00:46:49.510 --> 00:46:55.037
for face to face learning. I mean, it
seems to me the really big,

00:46:55.070 --> 00:46:59.256
important change that's going on in
learning today is the move towards

00:46:59.289 --> 00:47:04.416
active learning towards um engaging
students. It's not just pouring

00:47:04.449 --> 00:47:07.657
knowledge in their heads, but actually
helping them learn to use the

00:47:07.690 --> 00:47:12.827
knowledge and solve problems and make
decisions and that sort of thing

00:47:12.860 --> 00:47:17.546
based on that knowledge and so I think
active learning and in many, many

00:47:17.579 --> 00:47:21.467
forms, I mean, some of it is, some of
it is digital, I mean, it's working

00:47:21.500 --> 00:47:26.066
with simulations of complicated,
realistic things in the world and working

00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:31.017
through the problems, but it's also
community service, its economic

00:47:31.050 --> 00:47:38.847
development and it's uh it's study
abroad and and working in corporate

00:47:38.880 --> 00:47:43.416
settings and internships, all kinds of
stuff. And I think that's where

00:47:43.449 --> 00:47:48.986
we're going is to have this much more
active learning such that the

00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:52.727
pouring the knowledge into the head is
going to be more like distance

00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:57.046
learning. But what we do at the
university is going to have to be take

00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:01.227
that knowledge and teach people how to
use it. But to do it in an

00:48:01.260 --> 00:48:05.236
experiential way. Well, thinking back
over your career and thinking about

00:48:05.269 --> 00:48:10.097
the young person starting out a
career, what advice might you give to

00:48:10.130 --> 00:48:13.827
someone who was thinking about a
career now as a faculty member and

00:48:13.860 --> 00:48:19.997
potentially an administrator? Well, I
guess the people are, people are all

00:48:20.030 --> 00:48:24.827
wired differently, their brains are
wired differently. And and I think one

00:48:24.860 --> 00:48:29.037
of the most important things we do at
a university or a college, any kind

00:48:29.070 --> 00:48:33.307
of higher ed institution is to help
people explore their options, try to

00:48:33.340 --> 00:48:37.356
find out what's a good fit in the end,
it's what's a good fit for you that

00:48:37.389 --> 00:48:44.177
really matters. I mean, I I don't
think you can overstate how important it

00:48:44.210 --> 00:48:49.546
is, how, how different people's brains
work. Uh You know, I mean, some are

00:48:49.579 --> 00:48:52.597
interested in the arts, some are
interested in science, some are

00:48:52.630 --> 00:48:56.447
interested in mechanical stuff, some
are interested in accounting, some

00:48:56.480 --> 00:49:00.566
are interested and those are just
things that are just kind of hard wired

00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:05.646
in them and you've got to help them
explore what they're their passion is

00:49:05.679 --> 00:49:10.117
and what they're good at. And uh and
so I say one of the major things we

00:49:10.150 --> 00:49:14.486
can do is to help people explore their
options and both in the sense of

00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:20.086
what they are passionate about and
what they're good at. And uh and and

00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:25.836
the other thing I would say is this, I
think it's a an absolutely horrible

00:49:25.869 --> 00:49:30.097
the problem that we have in higher ed
to think that everyone needs to go

00:49:30.130 --> 00:49:33.416
to higher ed, that's just not the
case. There are all kinds of people that

00:49:33.449 --> 00:49:37.577
have other things they want to do and
that's what we ought to be able to

00:49:37.610 --> 00:49:42.146
respect that. And uh and I mean, not
just respected in the sense of not

00:49:42.179 --> 00:49:45.876
denigrated, I mean, really respected
that there are a lot of different

00:49:45.909 --> 00:49:52.236
things. One of my favorite stories
along this line.

00:49:52.269 --> 00:50:00.269
Yeah. Uh well, a good friend, rob
Duncan who is a physicist, he, one of

00:50:00.929 --> 00:50:06.296
the smartest people I've ever met. I
estimate his I. Q. In about 800. He's

00:50:06.329 --> 00:50:11.727
just amazing. But anyway, he uh he he
was having this problem with his car

00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:16.657
and he drive the car 500 miles and
there was some peace in the end it that

00:50:16.690 --> 00:50:20.387
got all junked up and the car would
stop and he'd have it towed to a

00:50:20.420 --> 00:50:24.907
garage and then they'd look at it And
the mechanic would find this gunk up

00:50:24.940 --> 00:50:29.367
piece and they'd replace the peace and
he'd drive 100 miles and 500 miles

00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:33.997
would be dunked up again. And this
happened over and over again. And

00:50:34.030 --> 00:50:39.506
finally he, this happened one time in
Northern New Mexico and and he got

00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:44.097
towed to this tiny little town of like
100 10 people or something. And

00:50:44.130 --> 00:50:48.236
there was one auto mechanic in town
and there's one little auto mechanic

00:50:48.269 --> 00:50:52.597
store or place where he was the only
person they're working in it, they

00:50:52.630 --> 00:50:56.727
would rob explained to him the problem
and this guy thought a second, he

00:50:56.760 --> 00:51:04.760
said he said um he said I got a
hypothesis, let me test it. So he tested

00:51:05.010 --> 00:51:09.626
the hypothesis and it turned out that
his hypothesis was right and he

00:51:09.659 --> 00:51:12.847
fixed whatever the problem was and rob
never had a problem again. But it

00:51:12.880 --> 00:51:17.637
turned out this guy had grown up in
this little town and this uh but he

00:51:17.670 --> 00:51:22.546
got away and got a PhD in physics and
uh

00:51:22.579 --> 00:51:27.856
his dad had owned this little repair
shop and when his dad passed away he

00:51:27.889 --> 00:51:31.767
just decided if he couldn't be doing
auto mechanics in this little town,

00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:36.327
life wasn't worth living. So he left
his academic job and moved back to

00:51:36.360 --> 00:51:41.086
that little town and he was just happy
as a mechanic. And I think that

00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:49.119
says so much that that was that was
what he was made for.

00:51:52.349 --> 00:51:56.247
We've covered a lot of ground. Other
other things you'd like to talk about

00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:01.916
that haven't come up or other
observations you'd like to make.

00:52:01.949 --> 00:52:06.927
Maybe one thing I'll mention is that
hasn't come up at all. It's how my

00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:14.287
own research fit into this. Um I did,
when I uh when I did my dissertation

00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:18.296
research, I ended up going to
Thailand. I worked, I did research for a

00:52:18.329 --> 00:52:24.137
couple of years in Thailand. And my my
dissertation research was based on

00:52:24.170 --> 00:52:29.247
, I studied a group of minority people
that had come from southern part of

00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:34.117
Burma to Thailand. When the burmese
moved south, they pushed a bunch of

00:52:34.150 --> 00:52:38.287
and what was interesting was Mon M. O.
N. Mon people. What was interesting

00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:41.927
was that all of these mon people when
they came to Thailand there was,

00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:47.336
most of them just became tie thai
peasants. You know the culture was just

00:52:47.369 --> 00:52:52.416
like the thai culture, lowland
Theravada buddhist southeast asian peasants

00:52:52.449 --> 00:52:55.916
and they spoke a different language
and they just became tie. But there

00:52:55.949 --> 00:53:02.026
was one small group that had that made
and distributed sold uh utility

00:53:02.059 --> 00:53:08.557
ceramics on the rivers and boats. And
uh these people all remain long. And

00:53:08.590 --> 00:53:14.947
the question was why did they remain
long? And this fit into a a it's a

00:53:14.980 --> 00:53:18.557
pan human phenomenon that in
traditional societies, traders are always

00:53:18.590 --> 00:53:24.287
from a different group, there are
outsiders. And so the question was, what

00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:29.717
was going on here? The literature at
that time about about why this

00:53:29.750 --> 00:53:35.097
happened these that the outsiders were
the traders in traditional

00:53:35.130 --> 00:53:39.727
communities was that that they came
from cultures that were more

00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:44.807
entrepreneurial and uh you know like
this came from the jewish traditions

00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:48.606
in europe and the U. S. But this
didn't work in this case at all these

00:53:48.639 --> 00:53:52.506
people were just like the tie. So what
was going on? So my theory

00:53:52.539 --> 00:53:57.586
basically was in general that that the
ties that that if you trade for

00:53:57.619 --> 00:54:02.706
profit in a traditional community
violate all the norms of reciprocity and

00:54:02.739 --> 00:54:08.287
community and family and all of that.
And so and and all the informal

00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:12.186
social sanctions just make it
impossible for you to do it. So who's the

00:54:12.219 --> 00:54:14.927
best person to do it? It's an
outsider, you know, I was never going to

00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:20.736
marry the head man's daughter anyway,
you know, and uh so anyway this this

00:54:20.769 --> 00:54:27.236
was my theory and it got me into
thinking about, Well let me, I was there

00:54:27.269 --> 00:54:31.686
in 1970 and studied these things in
1980, I went back and they built a big

00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:35.717
road system in Thailand And trading on
the river didn't make a lot of

00:54:35.750 --> 00:54:40.506
sense anymore. And so this one big
village of traders, nothing but traders

00:54:40.539 --> 00:54:46.146
, mon traders um I went back to that
village 10 years later and about half

00:54:46.179 --> 00:54:48.767
of the people would quit trading and
they bought, but they were still on

00:54:48.800 --> 00:54:52.316
the river. They bought barges and they
were hauling construction material

00:54:52.349 --> 00:54:56.907
and things like that up and down the
river. And um, but not trading. And

00:54:56.940 --> 00:55:01.997
to a person, all of those people that
have gotten the barges became tie,

00:55:02.030 --> 00:55:05.747
You know, 10 years ago I said, are you
monetize I'm on today? You monitor

00:55:05.780 --> 00:55:11.006
. I I'm ty but all the ones that were
still trading were still more mm

00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:15.166
It's almost like an experimental kind
of thing. And the one kind of

00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:20.247
anecdotal thing that I really loved
was one case was an exception case was

00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:23.467
a thai person that married a modern
woman from a trading family and he

00:55:23.500 --> 00:55:27.106
became on.

00:55:27.139 --> 00:55:30.977
But anyway, what this got me to
thinking about was how people manipulate

00:55:31.010 --> 00:55:36.776
their many identities. And it was it
was a way of thinking about diversity.

00:55:36.809 --> 00:55:39.896
It's a little different than the
normal way of thinking about it. And

00:55:39.929 --> 00:55:44.526
that became a core piece of my
research for a long time. But also it was a

00:55:44.559 --> 00:55:48.597
very major important way that I
thought about all the differences in the

00:55:48.630 --> 00:55:53.997
disciplines of racial and gender and
other differences. And so a main

00:55:54.030 --> 00:55:59.256
focus of my administrative career. Uh
I was actually on diversity and

00:55:59.289 --> 00:56:02.217
identity manipulation and that sort of
thing that came out of this

00:56:02.250 --> 00:56:10.250
research and more than most chairs or
most administrators. Um you're more

00:56:11.489 --> 00:56:16.736
thoughtful about how your discipline
influenced your style. I mean, I, I

00:56:16.769 --> 00:56:19.657
think most people don't think about
that much. They just are what they are

00:56:19.690 --> 00:56:24.256
, where you've, you've already thought
about it. Some actually wrote a

00:56:24.289 --> 00:56:27.506
paper about that a couple of years ago
about how people's disciplines

00:56:27.539 --> 00:56:32.227
affect their administrative styles.
Yeah. And I think they really do in

00:56:32.260 --> 00:56:38.597
powerful ways. Yeah. I think
anthropology is one of the best chance to go

00:56:38.630 --> 00:56:43.517
lead into administration because you
have such a wide knowledge of human

00:56:43.550 --> 00:56:48.637
behind him. I think it really is a
it's well, it brings a certain kind of

00:56:48.670 --> 00:56:53.376
value to it and that depends. I think
on the nature of the job. I mean

00:56:53.409 --> 00:56:57.796
there's some jobs that really do
require just

00:56:57.829 --> 00:57:04.586
well getting into the, the details and
that's not where I come from. And I

00:57:04.619 --> 00:57:07.427
think probably not where most
anthropologists come from, that's just not

00:57:07.460 --> 00:57:10.876
what anthropology gets you into. You
know, Did you have to learn the

00:57:10.909 --> 00:57:16.197
language in Thailand when he went and
did all that research?

00:57:16.230 --> 00:57:19.586
I worked out in the country. I mean,
you spoke tired, you didn't speak.

00:57:19.619 --> 00:57:21.756
Yeah.

00:57:21.789 --> 00:57:26.767
Did you, did you take uh southeast
asian languages at northern? I know

00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:30.037
what I did at the University of
michigan. I studied Tai for three years.

00:57:30.070 --> 00:57:32.586
Were they having that summer program
then they used to have a summer

00:57:32.619 --> 00:57:36.097
program where you could get immersed
in different southeast asian

00:57:36.130 --> 00:57:40.316
languages. I never really got into
Southeast asian studies much. Okay,

00:57:40.349 --> 00:57:45.867
okay. Which is kind of odd because
they do have a, oh, it's a major center.

00:57:45.900 --> 00:57:50.997
I'm actually going to donate all my
research archives to them. Right?

00:57:51.030 --> 00:57:53.986
Yeah. They'll, they'll appreciate
that. Yeah, they're, I think they're

00:57:54.019 --> 00:57:57.876
interested in it. It's almost of an
entire language and I should add. Oh

00:57:57.909 --> 00:58:01.686
really? Yeah, wow. Yeah.

00:58:01.719 --> 00:58:08.247
Fast forward to today now. Um, what
occupies your time and what are some

00:58:08.280 --> 00:58:15.427
of the things you're pursuing in your
current life? Well, I, I retired

00:58:15.460 --> 00:58:20.717
five years ago about a little more
than five years ago When I was 75 years

00:58:20.750 --> 00:58:27.066
old. And, And I tell people, I cut way
back to 60 hours a week.

00:58:27.099 --> 00:58:35.099
And I've one of the things I did when
I retired was I, as I said, I've

00:58:35.500 --> 00:58:38.447
been an anthem, very anthropological
administrator and I've been very

00:58:38.480 --> 00:58:43.367
active and lots and lots of national
organizations.

00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:47.166
I mean, a lot of them from all of
these different jobs had been in. And I

00:58:47.199 --> 00:58:51.407
gave probably got at least a couple of
100 papers at meetings and that

00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:55.186
sort of thing over these years. And
they were all very anthropological

00:58:55.219 --> 00:58:59.497
about a higher ed. So when I, when I
retired, I thought it would be

00:58:59.530 --> 00:59:05.026
interesting to uh set up a little
cluster of sessions at the Society for

00:59:05.059 --> 00:59:09.927
Applied Anthropology on an
anthropological perspective on all the chaos

00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:16.706
and higher education these days. And
my my basic to go back to, I've said

00:59:16.739 --> 00:59:21.217
this in 100 different ways now, but to
go back to that, I mean my basic

00:59:21.250 --> 00:59:25.657
rationale for all of that was this
that that most of the research on

00:59:25.690 --> 00:59:29.256
higher ed looks at some little slice
of it, you know, you look at

00:59:29.289 --> 00:59:32.887
admissions, you look at you know, this
or that or the other thing. But the

00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:37.037
fact is all of those slices interact
and if you just look at one slice at

00:59:37.070 --> 00:59:42.336
a time, it isn't very meaningful. And
anthropology brings this big, broad

00:59:42.369 --> 00:59:46.186
holistic view to all of this. And the
idea was that that this

00:59:46.219 --> 00:59:51.767
anthropological view of all the chaos,
all the volatility and higher ed

00:59:51.800 --> 00:59:56.166
could begin to bring all the pieces
together. So anyway, I organized three

00:59:56.199 --> 01:00:00.836
sessions for the Society for Applied
Anthropology before sessions. And um

01:00:00.869 --> 01:00:05.436
my God, did they ever get a lot of
attention? It was just unbelievable. So

01:00:05.469 --> 01:00:08.827
within a few months I set up what they
call a topical interest group

01:00:08.860 --> 01:00:13.066
within this organization, Society for
Applied Anthropology. So for the

01:00:13.099 --> 01:00:17.427
last four annual meetings, we had over
100 presenters At each of the

01:00:17.460 --> 01:00:22.186
meetings. And um we've got a book
that's out and a special issue of the

01:00:22.219 --> 01:00:25.666
journal. Another book that's about to
come out to other books that are in

01:00:25.699 --> 01:00:29.396
the works, a special issue of another
journal that's in the works. And

01:00:29.429 --> 01:00:34.816
it's really, really taken off. And
it's got you've got 450 affiliates to

01:00:34.849 --> 01:00:38.236
this group now. And uh and it's very
interdisciplinary. That's the other

01:00:38.269 --> 01:00:42.307
thing that I like about it. It's not
just anthropologists it's we've had

01:00:42.340 --> 01:00:48.227
higher ed people and engineers and
librarians and and uh agriculture

01:00:48.260 --> 01:00:51.956
people. I mean just from all over the
university, political scientists,

01:00:51.989 --> 01:00:55.927
sociologists from all over the
university it's really been an interesting

01:00:55.960 --> 01:01:02.336
uh uh an interesting uh initiative and
I think it has the potential to

01:01:02.369 --> 01:01:06.227
have some effect. One of our goals in
order to try to have some impact on

01:01:06.260 --> 01:01:11.296
policy is to organize sessions from
our group and other other kinds of

01:01:11.329 --> 01:01:17.477
higher ed organizations, you know like
disciplinary groups or a ce or

01:01:17.510 --> 01:01:21.626
counselor graduate schools. We did one
session at N. C. C. I. A couple of

01:01:21.659 --> 01:01:25.847
years. A couple of summers ago was our
first one of this sort and try to

01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:30.367
get to get the word out to those
people that have policy impact and both

01:01:30.400 --> 01:01:36.307
institutional level and and broader.
So that's that's eating me alive. I

01:01:36.340 --> 01:01:40.307
think that's fair to say. And then
I've been on two or three other boards

01:01:40.340 --> 01:01:44.997
. I was on the ST louis board of the
ST louis College of Pharmacy. I've

01:01:45.030 --> 01:01:50.677
been on the board of, it's the school
for advanced research in santa fe

01:01:50.710 --> 01:01:57.376
it's a over 100 year old think tank in
uh in an anthropological icon

01:01:57.409 --> 01:02:00.657
really in santa fe it's been there
over 100 years and deals with

01:02:00.690 --> 01:02:05.997
indigenous peoples and arts and so
I've been on the board there and well

01:02:06.030 --> 01:02:09.876
rotated off and I'm back on the board
there. So you know I'm on the board

01:02:09.909 --> 01:02:14.287
of Museum of Art and Archaeology and
chairing a committee to try to

01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:19.517
establish a museum district within
Colombia. There would be a destination

01:02:19.550 --> 01:02:25.467
for tourists and others. And so you
know I've got a lot of stuff going on

01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:29.166
but it's kind of a lot of, it all just
kind of comes from this background

01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:31.577
that I've had

01:02:31.610 --> 01:02:34.506
anthropology in general.

01:02:34.539 --> 01:02:40.836
Well you'd be surprised actually very
surprised. A very large number of

01:02:40.869 --> 01:02:43.686
anthropologists are medical
anthropologists that end up in the healthcare

01:02:43.719 --> 01:02:48.537
industry and they're in all kinds of
things ranging from hospital

01:02:48.570 --> 01:02:53.947
administration and clinical
administration jobs and doing cultural studies

01:02:53.980 --> 01:02:57.387
of hospitals and how you can make them
work better and serve people better

01:02:57.420 --> 01:03:01.467
and all that. That's a very big
medical anthropology is a big deal.

01:03:01.500 --> 01:03:05.896
Another big deal is there's something
like 3000 anthropologists that do

01:03:05.929 --> 01:03:10.566
corporate studies studies of corporate
culture worked for big corporations.

01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:14.756
And the idea is how do you adapt the
culture to all the changing

01:03:14.789 --> 01:03:19.287
circumstances, technologies and
illegal backgrounds and all the other kind

01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:24.907
of stuff that's going on. So uh one
of, one of my students was actually an

01:03:24.940 --> 01:03:29.427
early person that did this PhD from
here actually from A. S. U. That was

01:03:29.460 --> 01:03:33.387
something else I should have said. One
of my big things was I had some

01:03:33.420 --> 01:03:36.736
fabulous students for graduate
students that have gone on to have

01:03:36.769 --> 01:03:43.046
incredibly successful careers. Um, but
anyway, one of them, um, Patti san

01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:48.537
Antonio was her name, she did her
dissertation in Japan funded by intel

01:03:48.570 --> 01:03:52.747
and intel has just opened their, their
presence in Japan and they opened

01:03:52.780 --> 01:03:56.256
it with the idea, they were going to
run it with american management style

01:03:56.289 --> 01:04:02.416
and it was just catastrophic. And so
patty with Patty's dissertation was a

01:04:02.449 --> 01:04:06.936
study of how their corporate culture
could be embedded in Japan, japanese

01:04:06.969 --> 01:04:11.787
culture and that totally changed the
way they do business there and uh,

01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:14.807
but isn't that interesting, but
there's a lot of anthropologists to do

01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:18.727
that kind of work. So there's, you
know, there's a very broad range of

01:04:18.760 --> 01:04:20.756
applications,

01:04:20.789 --> 01:04:23.717
anthropologie, just like I'm applying
at the, you know, higher ed

01:04:23.750 --> 01:04:28.557
administration in a sense and there
are a lot of applications like that,

01:04:28.590 --> 01:04:32.997
that where anthropologists are working
in another in social service areas

01:04:33.030 --> 01:04:39.356
, a lot of a lot of things there and
adapting programs to local cultures,

01:04:39.389 --> 01:04:46.427
that sort of thing. Very, it's very
ah, very diverse set of employment

01:04:46.460 --> 01:04:50.977
opportunities.

01:04:51.010 --> 01:04:56.066
Well, that's another interesting. My
wife is german and she grew up in and

01:04:56.099 --> 01:05:03.206
Swab eah and Heidelberg in Germany and
she was a teacher in Germany and

01:05:03.239 --> 01:05:09.847
then she met the, the president of
Hastings College in Nebraska Hastings

01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:13.717
college at a meeting in Germany at a
conference one time and he invited

01:05:13.750 --> 01:05:16.936
her, they, they kind of connected and
he invited her to come to Hastings

01:05:16.969 --> 01:05:22.836
for a year and teach and take a couple
of courses and you know, just so

01:05:22.869 --> 01:05:26.416
she did and she loved it. And so she
stayed for another year and finished

01:05:26.449 --> 01:05:29.686
a bachelor's degree and then she went
on the University of Nebraska and

01:05:29.719 --> 01:05:34.066
did a graduate degree in german and
then she had a job at northern

01:05:34.099 --> 01:05:38.396
Illinois teaching german at northern
Illinois. I met her one night at a

01:05:38.429 --> 01:05:42.557
party when I was a student there.

01:05:42.590 --> 01:05:49.497
Yeah. Crazy. Huh? It is. I mean it was
the odds were long that you were

01:05:49.530 --> 01:05:55.296
going to be there and even longer than
she was going to be there. So,

01:05:55.329 --> 01:05:59.546
well actually I had a timeshare in
Scottsdale that I gave my kids, they're

01:05:59.579 --> 01:06:04.296
not using it this year, so I may just
come and use that for a week. Your

01:06:04.329 --> 01:06:10.177
present home is where Columbia
Missouri and that's where you're gonna

01:06:10.210 --> 01:06:15.836
retire. Actually. Actually, maybe not.
I'm actually gonna probably move in.

01:06:15.869 --> 01:06:19.717
I've got all kinds of health issues
and I'm actually gonna probably move

01:06:19.750 --> 01:06:24.477
into a senior living facility and I
think I'm leaning right now to moving

01:06:24.510 --> 01:06:29.347
to Ann Arbor where my daughter is. And

01:06:29.380 --> 01:06:33.577
so we'll see, I'm on the waiting list
of one of a place in Colombia and

01:06:33.610 --> 01:06:38.907
another one in Ann Arbor. Well we'll
just we'll see it's a year or so

01:06:38.940 --> 01:06:43.376
until they say until they'll have a
spot open and I'm beginning to try to

01:06:43.409 --> 01:06:47.686
downsize and we've got a fairly large
house that hasn't got an empty

01:06:47.719 --> 01:06:52.666
square inch. You mentioned a daughter,
how many Children do you have? Two

01:06:52.699 --> 01:06:58.787
kids? One she's a physician in ann
arbor son who's very successful

01:06:58.820 --> 01:07:02.347
journalist who lives in austin texas

01:07:02.380 --> 01:07:08.057
and our daughter was super super
overachiever and her younger brother just

01:07:08.090 --> 01:07:11.486
refused to compete with her. So he was
an absolutely compulsive

01:07:11.519 --> 01:07:16.287
underachievement. He worked at it you
know he'd do his homework and not

01:07:16.320 --> 01:07:20.546
turn it in and things like that. And
anyway we thought he wouldn't

01:07:20.579 --> 01:07:24.706
graduate from high school. It was just
it was really it was really

01:07:24.739 --> 01:07:30.927
challenging. And then he got a 35 on
the AC. And so he got into every

01:07:30.960 --> 01:07:33.177
college

01:07:33.210 --> 01:07:37.646
and and he went to ended up going to
trinity in san Antonio which is a

01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:41.316
good liberal arts college. And then he
got out and he screwed around and

01:07:41.349 --> 01:07:45.106
tended bar for 23 years. And then one
day he called me when I was in

01:07:45.139 --> 01:07:48.287
Nebraska and he said dad I finally
decided I want to be a magazine

01:07:48.320 --> 01:07:52.947
journalist. He'd never had a
journalism class or anything and I called the

01:07:52.980 --> 01:07:57.296
Journalism dean and we got it fixed
up. So he came and took classes for a

01:07:57.329 --> 01:08:01.287
spring in the summer at Nebraska and
journalism and my God he worked like

01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:05.347
a demon and blew the top off the G. P.
A. And then he went to Missouri

01:08:05.380 --> 01:08:09.097
which is a very famous journalism
school and did his graduate degree there

01:08:09.130 --> 01:08:13.597
and he's had this incredibly
successful career. He's been editor in chief

01:08:13.630 --> 01:08:20.086
of several national magazines and he's
now a senior 45. What's the

01:08:20.119 --> 01:08:27.717
difference between three years and uh
Yeah the girl being the older one

01:08:27.750 --> 01:08:33.946
and she was she wanted to be a doctor
since she was about three years old

01:08:33.979 --> 01:08:40.767
and uh just you know, but he just he
just found this when he was don't

01:08:40.800 --> 01:08:43.237
remember.

01:08:43.270 --> 01:08:46.246
She went to medical school at U. Of a
actually and then she did a

01:08:46.279 --> 01:08:49.696
residency in michigan and she's been
there in in the ann Arbor area ever

01:08:49.729 --> 01:08:56.336
since mm hmm.

01:08:56.369 --> 01:09:03.946
To think of what's going on in
downtown and around the lake and the issue

01:09:03.979 --> 01:09:09.496
here at, well I hadn't been here for
quite a few years and I was here what

01:09:09.529 --> 01:09:14.607
, 23 months ago, three months ago. To
mainly just basically to see friends

01:09:14.640 --> 01:09:19.987
and Kathy and I reconnected there and
several other friends and and well

01:09:20.020 --> 01:09:25.496
we connected there had a nice visit
one night and and the first time I've

01:09:25.529 --> 01:09:28.977
been here in a long time. I mean I was
just blown away. I just couldn't

01:09:29.010 --> 01:09:33.496
even believe it how much it has
changed. It's just just it had no there

01:09:33.529 --> 01:09:40.336
was no sense of familiar to me at all.
None. And it was really interesting

01:09:40.369 --> 01:09:45.326
And I lived here 14 years. I mean it
wasn't like I said, well that's

01:09:45.359 --> 01:09:50.177
longer

01:09:50.210 --> 01:09:54.336
until I don't recognize it. What about
you?

01:09:54.369 --> 01:10:01.887
Yeah I was just blown away. Mhm. But
but I'm glad I came and that was, it

01:10:01.920 --> 01:10:06.557
was a really fun visit and I think I
may try to come and spend a week here

01:10:06.590 --> 01:10:13.126
so sometime later in the spring or in
the fall. And if there are no other

01:10:13.159 --> 01:10:17.467
questions brian thank you so much for
joining us today and for agreeing to

01:10:17.500 --> 01:10:20.817
be part of the Hay issue video history
project. We appreciate it. Thank

01:10:20.850 --> 01:10:26.946
you. It's a very impressive project.
Thank you. Very good. I said I've

01:10:26.979 --> 01:10:30.376
never seen a project like this is this
other places. There's a wonderful

01:10:30.409 --> 01:10:34.446
collection that's been put together
and what I've seen, it's you know it's

01:10:34.479 --> 01:10:38.256
too bad. It wasn't started earlier
because you know a few people that have

01:10:38.289 --> 01:10:44.626
been really interesting were either
gone or gone before you can do it

01:10:44.659 --> 01:10:48.647
right here is a

01:10:48.680 --> 01:10:56.527
oh thank you. Thank you campus. Oh
thanks. So that's so that's nice.

01:10:56.560 --> 01:11:02.086
One of the things that people like to
recall their memory is this uh

01:11:02.119 --> 01:11:09.336
timeline of let's see here. well this
is when the buildings were built a

01:11:09.369 --> 01:11:17.369
year up to 2000 when this was
published. But all of the

01:11:18.659 --> 01:11:25.817
Presidents Deans, these are all oh my
gosh.

01:11:25.850 --> 01:11:31.326
Oh yeah, interesting, interesting.
Yeah.

01:11:31.359 --> 01:11:34.710
Yeah that isnice