WEBVTT 00:00:03.740 --> 00:00:05.740 Well the day is February 2, 2012 we are conducting an interview for the 00:00:09.050 --> 00:00:14.746 Arizona State University Association video history project. We are located 00:00:14.779 --> 00:00:20.826 today in the ASU Community Services building. I am bob ellis. The 00:00:20.859 --> 00:00:28.859 technical staff today is john McIntosh and Dave Schatz lee is our director. 00:00:29.140 --> 00:00:34.396 Also in attendance is linda Vance. Coy. Chair of the A. S. U. R. A video 00:00:34.429 --> 00:00:42.429 history project. Today I will interview Charles Raymond Ellis Hi Bob and I 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:49.597 should disclose that chuck and I have been friends for over 50 years. 00:00:49.630 --> 00:00:53.307 My name is Charles Allen. 00:00:53.340 --> 00:00:56.006 I 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:02.557 served several tours at ASU as a student as a faculty associate, that 00:01:02.590 --> 00:01:06.807 title bob faculty associate. 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:11.307 I then went out to seek my fortune 00:01:11.340 --> 00:01:19.340 and return for a 1415 year run in 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:24.906 Early 1980, February february 1980 00:01:24.939 --> 00:01:32.939 something like that. And I had several titles and the title at my exit 00:01:35.099 --> 00:01:39.566 interview was general manager 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:43.766 and I was an administrator. 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:47.706 It didn't really make a lot of difference, but that's when they started 00:01:47.739 --> 00:01:50.406 trying to 00:01:50.439 --> 00:01:54.807 change everyone to service 00:01:54.840 --> 00:01:58.007 professional. 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:06.040 And so I went down as, as, as an administrator. 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:11.506 I was born at ST joseph's Hospital 00:02:11.539 --> 00:02:19.539 On North 4th Street, a few blocks north of Van Buren In 1938. Tell us 00:02:19.590 --> 00:02:24.166 about your childhood. I had one, 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:29.307 it's here phoenix. Um 00:02:29.340 --> 00:02:35.356 I think the state's population was maybe a half million. And the city 00:02:35.389 --> 00:02:41.207 limits it would be about an indian school road, 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:47.606 those indians bob, not in the city limits, not not at that time. So all of 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:55.639 the indian health and schools and so forth. Were just across the line and 00:02:56.909 --> 00:03:04.626 it was a great place to grow up. Everyone knew each other. For example, if 00:03:04.659 --> 00:03:09.457 my mother wanted to go shopping, She would take me to my grandmother's 00:03:09.490 --> 00:03:17.297 house on 4th street just below Roosevelt, they flagged down the, 00:03:17.330 --> 00:03:19.707 the trolley 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:24.416 and uh and put me on and you simply stayed on until they flagged it down 00:03:24.449 --> 00:03:30.596 and said we'll take him back. And so he spent of the day going, you know 00:03:30.629 --> 00:03:33.906 from Washington 00:03:33.939 --> 00:03:38.136 and forth up to indian school 00:03:38.169 --> 00:03:46.169 and then and then back down. It was, it was very interesting ah 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:53.767 and then television came along and I was really interested in television 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:58.617 and this. I'm starting to bother my parents because there seemed to be no 00:03:58.650 --> 00:04:05.147 way you could make a living with it. And phoenix had one station Kpho 00:04:05.180 --> 00:04:12.797 Channel 5, 1949 and it was on the air several hours every day, not too 00:04:12.830 --> 00:04:20.830 many hours, everything was on film. So let's say a politician was killed, 00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:27.507 they'd be dying over and over in phoenix because 00:04:27.540 --> 00:04:33.217 they would film the newscast in new york and then and the newscast will be 00:04:33.250 --> 00:04:37.967 sent to Chicago or somewhere and eventually it gets the phoenix weeks and 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:43.416 weeks later before the transcontinental cable. 00:04:43.449 --> 00:04:51.449 And but I spent every, every minute I could At Channel five and eventually 00:04:52.029 --> 00:04:59.717 became a cable puller for several dollars a day because they couldn't get 00:04:59.750 --> 00:05:05.486 up to a dollar an hour and all the hamburgers. Yes, because they made 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:10.027 hamburgers ruth Dunlap made hamburgers for the crew because it was part of 00:05:10.060 --> 00:05:15.947 the compensation package before she did her local cooking show cook's 00:05:15.980 --> 00:05:19.207 corner box. 00:05:19.240 --> 00:05:27.240 I was heavily influenced as was everyone else my age by uh the depression 00:05:28.439 --> 00:05:32.817 and what it did to families and 00:05:32.850 --> 00:05:40.850 and and World War two and and World World War two ah 00:05:42.250 --> 00:05:49.616 ended in the 40s the scarcity of things went on uh you know past the 50s I 00:05:49.649 --> 00:05:57.387 mean where you had to have little red tokens. We're red tokens for meat or 00:05:57.420 --> 00:06:00.587 gas. 00:06:00.620 --> 00:06:08.356 The A's and B's were for and and it was just scarcity was everything so 00:06:08.389 --> 00:06:13.127 like people are doing today and telling me how new it is and would I like 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:19.486 to make a little film about it? No we were raising chickens in order to 00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:22.306 have something to eat 00:06:22.339 --> 00:06:28.267 And I think I was probably eight when when my 00:06:28.300 --> 00:06:32.447 my great grandmother taught me how to 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:38.937 kill a chicken so that it would drop dead and not flop around and become 00:06:38.970 --> 00:06:45.306 and become hard and and make a a terrible dinner 00:06:45.339 --> 00:06:53.339 and you know how to gather eggs, how to plant corn. Um My my father was 00:06:53.660 --> 00:07:00.217 from columbus Ohio mm mm mm mm. And worked in a bakery and later for the 00:07:00.250 --> 00:07:08.250 city of phoenix. My mother had started at a. S. U. And uh and couldn't 00:07:09.009 --> 00:07:14.806 afford to to finish ah 00:07:14.839 --> 00:07:22.327 And and of course my father went I went to the war so she I was a stay at 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:24.707 home mom. 00:07:24.740 --> 00:07:30.277 Although she she worked for the war at 00:07:30.310 --> 00:07:38.310 luke field for a while and I would have to find a babysitter for me. Um 00:07:41.139 --> 00:07:44.656 And one of the babysitters came back to put on a birthday for me at 00:07:44.689 --> 00:07:47.707 Channel eight 00:07:47.740 --> 00:07:51.306 Rose Mofford. Yes. 00:07:51.339 --> 00:07:59.339 She was a young promising secretary. Um and the tax commission and she 00:07:59.750 --> 00:08:07.596 knew speed writing and she was from Globe and she did it just because she 00:08:07.629 --> 00:08:14.707 she liked my mother, my grandfather. But 00:08:14.740 --> 00:08:20.786 so there were there were some so a lot of time was spent in in in the 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:26.106 living room where my father had a 00:08:26.139 --> 00:08:34.139 midwest brand all band radio which you could get radio signals from all 00:08:34.820 --> 00:08:41.606 over the world. And I spent hours and hours and hours turning the dial and 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:49.639 trying to see if you could pick up Germany or London or some place. And 00:08:49.929 --> 00:08:56.907 I'm still doing that today. Only my technology is a lot better than that 00:08:56.940 --> 00:09:02.726 was at the time. And then my mother was a huge influence because she she 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:07.006 was an avid reader and 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:12.327 we couldn't get away to go to the library very often. But she was the best 00:09:12.360 --> 00:09:16.776 customer the book mobile had. And you know, we had little busses that 00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:21.407 drove around phoenix with a selection of books and you go into the 00:09:21.440 --> 00:09:28.486 bookmobile and find something of interest. And so there was always 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:36.519 something to read. Ah I think a grolier encyclopedia was a big deal 00:09:36.840 --> 00:09:42.276 because it came with updates, stamps tear off a stamp and mail it off, you 00:09:42.309 --> 00:09:50.309 get the updated version of some event or 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:53.307 whatever. 00:09:53.340 --> 00:09:59.606 So I think that was a big deal and then she was hugely civic. We had, 00:09:59.639 --> 00:10:05.207 she raised, she sold Girl Scout cookies. No, I didn't have a sister. She 00:10:05.240 --> 00:10:09.506 was in the first mothers march for 00:10:09.539 --> 00:10:12.807 um 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:17.787 The war against Polio which is a huge deal here. I didn't learn to swim 00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:24.407 until I was probably 20 because it was believed that polio traveled in 00:10:24.440 --> 00:10:30.776 swimming pool and all of the swimming pools were closed and in phoenix for 00:10:30.809 --> 00:10:34.846 fear that everyone would get polio, it's the same reason they would cover 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:38.677 their mouth when they passed this building because this was a TB 00:10:38.710 --> 00:10:40.807 sanitarium 00:10:40.840 --> 00:10:48.840 and it could get out there. Um She was a, had a cub scout meeting at my 00:10:50.590 --> 00:10:58.590 house and I don't think I knew it until many, many years later that it was 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:04.866 what kept the number of people saying at at at the time because they, 00:11:04.899 --> 00:11:10.917 their fathers are drugs who beat them up or a variety of other things. 00:11:10.950 --> 00:11:13.106 There was 00:11:13.139 --> 00:11:18.226 Fellow whose father owned a Chinese grocery store and he had 13 brothers 00:11:18.259 --> 00:11:24.506 and sisters and I think they had one bedroom 00:11:24.539 --> 00:11:30.606 and so going to my house for chocolate chip cookies 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:38.639 uh was a huge deal. I did not know it at the time. So ah 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.907 I am actually a real native 00:11:43.940 --> 00:11:51.057 now, you went to phoenix union, I entered phoenix union high school In 56 00:11:51.090 --> 00:11:58.106 . I spent all of the time in journalism that I could, I was a very good 00:11:58.139 --> 00:12:06.139 photographer. So my faculty advisor on the annual ah got me some 00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:17.006 freelance work with the republic uh shooting sports at phoenix union, 00:12:17.039 --> 00:12:24.146 which was the sports capital of of Arizona all state in everything every 00:12:24.179 --> 00:12:26.197 year. 00:12:26.230 --> 00:12:29.307 And uh 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:35.476 until I was taking a terrific picture at a basketball game and just waited 00:12:35.509 --> 00:12:40.266 a second and a half too long to pull the trigger and when I came to having 00:12:40.299 --> 00:12:47.197 been knocked over and the crown graphic destroyed, I decided that wasn't 00:12:47.230 --> 00:12:50.807 something I wanted to do for a living 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:58.496 and then I became the editor of the yearbook for two years in a row and 00:12:58.529 --> 00:13:05.506 they both want all state competitions and the editor of the year before, 00:13:05.539 --> 00:13:09.307 my junior was Nick Salerno 00:13:09.340 --> 00:13:15.337 and you participated in the mask of the yellow moon, I remember right. And 00:13:15.370 --> 00:13:21.407 who was your music professor Eugene P Lombardi 00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:28.167 at the time, phoenix Union high school had more ph d s on the payroll than 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:35.707 a S. You did, sorry, A. S. C bob. Ah 00:13:35.740 --> 00:13:38.606 and 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:43.207 mr Lombardi was our orchestra conductor 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:50.817 and harvey zorn was the band conductor and then we had a wonderful organ 00:13:50.850 --> 00:13:58.850 and choir ah leader by the name of Sue Davis who eventually becomes mrs 00:13:59.669 --> 00:14:02.006 Lombardi. 00:14:02.039 --> 00:14:06.006 My first station was in my bedroom 00:14:06.039 --> 00:14:10.516 and you'll find this, this it's something that people get into this 00:14:10.549 --> 00:14:16.276 business Having built a station, you know with an audience of one if your 00:14:16.309 --> 00:14:24.309 headphones worked. Uh and I had a radio station in my bedroom 00:14:25.320 --> 00:14:33.320 and it caught fire and and that we signed it off after that the landlord, 00:14:33.740 --> 00:14:41.740 my parents, I said no to that. But yes I had 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:49.907 I was within walking distance of a local sports stations 00:14:49.940 --> 00:14:53.606 phoenix studio 00:14:53.639 --> 00:15:01.639 and I had a dollar an hour job as the engineer for a sportscaster by the 00:15:02.500 --> 00:15:09.067 name of Ed deforest. This is on K. r. u. x. 1340, the rest of it was in 00:15:09.100 --> 00:15:11.207 Glendale 00:15:11.240 --> 00:15:14.207 and 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:22.240 and occasionally would work with with him on baseball recreation. 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:32.677 So start telling us about your first experience at A S. U. As a student. 00:15:32.710 --> 00:15:38.707 Well I think it was when I was watching football games in Goodwin Stadium 00:15:38.740 --> 00:15:46.116 and my grandfather's pipe would set fire to his jacket and we would have 00:15:46.149 --> 00:15:50.707 to leave early and 00:15:50.740 --> 00:15:58.606 and then I entered a S. U. In 1957 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:04.207 it was either that or the U. Of a. Those were the choices 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:09.756 and people in my clique that I didn't like we're going to the U. Of A. So 00:16:09.789 --> 00:16:14.907 I decided to go to Vegas. You so 00:16:14.940 --> 00:16:22.940 so we enter A S. U. Freshman liberal arts uh Dean Arnold tilden in charge 00:16:25.340 --> 00:16:33.340 and I was a radio tv major which operated out of the radio tv bureau 00:16:35.539 --> 00:16:40.707 in the basement of Matthew's library 00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:47.307 and and that was the beginning and eventually 00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:50.707 General Electric paid for 00:16:50.740 --> 00:16:55.996 a new engineering building and it had very, very nice studios even by 00:16:56.029 --> 00:17:04.029 today's standards uh for a sus radio and television's aspirations. 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:14.039 And there was the name change was coming, a big effort to try to change A 00:17:15.619 --> 00:17:21.556 S. C. To an A S. U. And it was going to be a public vote. So there is this 00:17:21.589 --> 00:17:28.147 desire for visibility. So somebody said, what can we do, what could you do 00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:30.207 ? 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:38.240 And so I intended the sewer club and broadcast from in front of the 00:17:38.470 --> 00:17:46.470 engineering center out of the steam pipe tunnels and gave away free 00:17:47.619 --> 00:17:54.907 cigarettes and and free records, which of course created a crowd. And then 00:17:54.940 --> 00:18:00.387 I told a buddy who works at Channel 12 and he told somebody there 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:07.306 and they were out filming it and it was going to be on on NBC National, 00:18:07.339 --> 00:18:11.897 you know, one of those end of the news, those funny things people do out 00:18:11.930 --> 00:18:17.197 there. And mrs Gammage, the President's wife Kay Gammage found out about 00:18:17.230 --> 00:18:22.927 it. And and I mean, she was just, what if this is the only thing they ever 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:29.137 know about it, we can't let them know, we live in sewers, we've we've got 00:18:29.170 --> 00:18:37.170 to stop it. And I mean they They all went to channel 12 at once. And so 00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:43.657 channel 12 got it canceled. I still have the film, Oh yes, every once in a 00:18:43.690 --> 00:18:47.506 while said that didn't really happen. 00:18:47.539 --> 00:18:53.506 And you got involved in television about 19 00:18:53.539 --> 00:19:00.107 58 Your predecessors over there started the station, 00:19:00.140 --> 00:19:08.140 the, it's a big event of 59 was a Sus Diamond Jubilee. 00:19:09.309 --> 00:19:16.806 And again, what can we do, what can we do? And, 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:21.806 and you know, the usual terrible I d you know, somebody's going to make a 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:26.506 film. Let's make a diamond jubilee documentary. That's good. We'll put it 00:19:26.539 --> 00:19:31.907 in the, in the time capsule and then we'll forget where the capsule is, 00:19:31.940 --> 00:19:34.907 which we did. 00:19:34.940 --> 00:19:40.516 No, but we were there when it, when it was put in the ground and I don't 00:19:40.549 --> 00:19:47.576 remember where, where it went. But uh, so my idea was that we have the 00:19:47.609 --> 00:19:54.226 first televised stereo television program in the state. And of course you 00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:58.107 get the usual, oh, it's just not possible. We don't have this, we don't 00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:00.407 please. 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:05.177 So I said, you give me the chorus and the orchestra and, and I'll figure 00:20:05.210 --> 00:20:11.407 out how to do it. And I think we, 00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:18.957 We use channel 12 mobile unit and we used one of the FM stations. There 00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:22.707 was a stereo FM station 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:26.707 and and we use that for the audio 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:31.806 and, and the show turned out very, very good. And it was always you talent. 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:36.407 But in stereo bob, 00:20:36.440 --> 00:20:40.006 I was drafted 00:20:40.039 --> 00:20:43.506 for a fraternity. 00:20:43.539 --> 00:20:46.306 Um, 00:20:46.339 --> 00:20:50.907 twice once was 00:20:50.940 --> 00:20:55.506 phi sigma kappa 00:20:55.539 --> 00:21:00.736 a voice, a voice. I worked for at the radio networks Charles. Don't take 00:21:00.769 --> 00:21:06.407 it personally, we need your grades 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:10.006 and 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:15.306 I went to a couple of pledge affairs there where they explain 00:21:15.339 --> 00:21:20.776 ah you know, first there's a secret, right? You'll have to memorize all of 00:21:20.809 --> 00:21:28.137 it and there's only one ritual, it's the demon ritual all over again. You 00:21:28.170 --> 00:21:31.207 know, if you stand over here, you're the sun and if you're over here, 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:34.306 you're a triangle 00:21:34.339 --> 00:21:40.957 and that you'll only associate with people in this fraternity and you know 00:21:40.990 --> 00:21:46.657 , you give up this radio stuff because we have gardens for you to dig car 00:21:46.690 --> 00:21:50.806 washes, you know, you're to watch people's cars. 00:21:50.839 --> 00:21:55.847 So I said, well that that's that here Mr Dodds take your pin, I'm out of 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:58.506 here. 00:21:58.539 --> 00:22:04.306 Then another fraternity came to me, Bruce Ballard 00:22:04.339 --> 00:22:11.957 guy from Chicago Charles, we need your grade two or will be toast, will be 00:22:11.990 --> 00:22:17.107 gone, will be put on probation and if you're on probation you can't hold 00:22:17.140 --> 00:22:21.806 drunken parties, which is what attracts people to these things. Anyway. 00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:28.006 And we had a house off campus, A two story, 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:36.039 two story house built In the late 20s and it was on 00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:41.006 ah 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.806 God 00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:46.306 not normal, 00:22:46.339 --> 00:22:53.976 it's way off campus. What fraternity was sigma pi 00:22:54.009 --> 00:22:58.006 I mean this would be in the middle of campus today, but not at the time. 00:22:58.039 --> 00:23:06.039 Uh huh. Anyway, there had been an outbreak of venereal diseases and there 00:23:06.369 --> 00:23:11.407 was a joke that had traveled on towels, 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.857 sigma pi and 00:23:15.890 --> 00:23:22.697 uh you know, I had to not have much interest in this and 00:23:22.730 --> 00:23:28.717 the people were really interested. We're ready to leave. And then we had 00:23:28.750 --> 00:23:31.707 some people who were there 00:23:31.740 --> 00:23:34.086 because their checks were good or something, something, everything was a 00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:38.847 very pragmatic time. So we had worked out a thing with the national 00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:43.467 chapter where we would close, we would go out of business at on this 00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:46.506 campus 00:23:46.539 --> 00:23:53.407 and knock on the door one afternoon and by Charles. 00:23:53.440 --> 00:23:57.266 I'm not surprised. I knew I'd find you in here. She didn't say that. She 00:23:57.299 --> 00:24:01.407 acted like this is Gammage 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:03.897 ah 00:24:03.930 --> 00:24:11.256 and she said well you know this is yeah this is several blocks away from a 00:24:11.289 --> 00:24:17.147 S. You today, a sc Arizona state today, you know, but we have to think 00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:22.556 boldly and about the future and I think the campus is going to come in 00:24:22.589 --> 00:24:26.746 this way. Of course she's 00:24:26.779 --> 00:24:33.177 out there under they make for a real estate company buying up parts of of 00:24:33.210 --> 00:24:36.006 Tempe. 00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:39.107 And we 00:24:39.140 --> 00:24:45.377 we sold our our our house and she had the house actually moved someplace 00:24:45.410 --> 00:24:51.957 else. And I think it's gone now. The house isn't pretty good condition as 00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:57.617 an old temple treasure. And then she held it until the university could 00:24:57.650 --> 00:25:05.117 afford to buy them from her. And I really don't think there's anything 00:25:05.150 --> 00:25:11.887 nefarious in it at all. It was. She's out there dreaming of a bigger S. U. 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:19.920 And and you have you have to collect the property before you 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:29.107 can plan new boundaries and new buildings and so forth. But yes she was. 00:25:29.140 --> 00:25:34.826 And they paid a fair price. I don't remember what it was now, but 00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:40.407 I don't believe she didn't know I was there when she showed up. 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:45.607 How about the most embarrassing moment? You were part of it? 00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:50.207 I was never embarrassed. I was 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:54.397 we were in the engineering center which still stands today across in the 00:25:54.430 --> 00:26:02.430 bookstore and we had big windows, just huge, beautiful windows and 00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:08.347 unlike everyone else at A. S. U. I had I didn't sleep. I had four or five 00:26:08.380 --> 00:26:14.207 jobs. I was a disc jockey 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:19.506 who was paid in rating performance in cash out of the bag 00:26:19.539 --> 00:26:25.207 Here. a point. Of course. He went down out 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:33.240 um I had another show ah what did Gilbert and Scottsdale 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:39.296 where they didn't pay your money? They paid you a thing, tires. Greece 00:26:39.329 --> 00:26:47.329 jobs, movie tickets. I mean it was a trade only. Thanks. And then I had 00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:52.516 the job at the Bureau of Broadcasting 00:26:52.549 --> 00:26:57.746 and and so I just had more discretionary money than most people rattling 00:26:57.779 --> 00:27:04.826 around that building. And I I've been going through a car a year, couldn't 00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:11.036 quite decide what I liked. And then Ford came out with the skyline er the 00:27:11.069 --> 00:27:13.407 1959 00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:21.440 skyline. Er and I bought one from reed mullin. It was coral and white. It 00:27:21.700 --> 00:27:29.700 was the metal convertible where the metal top goes up the back of it, open 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:35.006 the top of the car goes into the trunk and closes. 00:27:35.039 --> 00:27:39.776 I can't wait to show it off to you and everyone else. So I park it across 00:27:39.809 --> 00:27:45.097 the street from channel eight and then I go in and I opened the curtain, 00:27:45.130 --> 00:27:48.506 see my car? 00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:56.539 The motor was on fire. The beautiful white top covering the engine 00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:02.907 Had a black circle which was spreading. It was a four barrel carburetor 00:28:02.940 --> 00:28:07.806 and 00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:12.617 and it burned up right there in front of all of these friends. All these 00:28:12.650 --> 00:28:17.306 people I work with. I mean 00:28:17.339 --> 00:28:25.207 boy was I was I brought down the size maybe below size. Geez 00:28:25.240 --> 00:28:29.246 I mean that was just, I mean I was a victim of my own show. Did I give you 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:34.407 a good show? How often you see a car that's minutes old on fire. I mean 00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:40.207 that's great. Then when did you graduate? 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:44.647 You know, I wish I had brought my diploma because there are those who, I 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:50.207 don't think I really did. Uh 1960 00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:58.240 and and it was the first year of Arizona State University diplomas. 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:04.407 Unlike today where 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:10.607 people were extremely human faculty. Everyone, 00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:15.496 they were miserably paid. I mean the most golden thing you could have here 00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:20.197 would be some little second contract for the summer and you repaid for 00:29:20.230 --> 00:29:23.407 nine months out of the year 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:31.440 $5, If you were lucky. I mean it was, I always thought 00:29:33.140 --> 00:29:38.736 my advisor dr Bell was just really friendly guy because he and his you 00:29:38.769 --> 00:29:41.707 know, he and Allen lived over 00:29:41.740 --> 00:29:44.907 at palm 00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:49.746 palm crossed whatever whatever it's called and they'd have a potluck once 00:29:49.779 --> 00:29:53.586 or twice a week and other faculty members would come over. What I didn't 00:29:53.619 --> 00:29:57.506 know until many, many years later was they were all broke, they could 00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:03.717 hardly raise a family on what the issue was paying. So they the potlucks 00:30:03.750 --> 00:30:11.236 were a way of stretching their money and getting by now this is in 57 58 00:30:11.269 --> 00:30:18.907 things got much bigger but everyone really knew everyone extremely well 00:30:18.940 --> 00:30:25.207 and um they were 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:33.086 I thought they were really a very impressive bunch. Mhm. I think that um I 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:38.387 was terribly lucky, I went to A S. U. And the in the first place and the 00:30:38.420 --> 00:30:44.107 people who make a huge difference and your life for like the 00:30:44.140 --> 00:30:52.140 you know Lois holiday and jean Lombardi and in high school and uh and then 00:30:52.269 --> 00:31:00.207 there were people, you know teachers, professors in college um dr Portnoy 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:05.387 who just no matter how wacky the idea what she would sit you down and she 00:31:05.420 --> 00:31:12.207 had an accident about like Julia child, where did this accent come from 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:17.776 that and tell you it was really a nice little idea but it could be a 00:31:17.809 --> 00:31:23.157 bigger idea and it didn't have to be mediocre. Now let's work with this 00:31:23.190 --> 00:31:28.897 and see what it was like throwing gas in my ear and these were stories, 00:31:28.930 --> 00:31:36.177 these were ideas for essays and stories but she was priceless in terms of 00:31:36.210 --> 00:31:41.377 always being on the encouraging side. She may have maybe she didn't like 00:31:41.410 --> 00:31:48.066 you or dr bell I don't know you know I'll get him so cranked up hill do 00:31:48.099 --> 00:31:54.347 something worse than the sewer. The damages were very sweet. Um Mrs 00:31:54.380 --> 00:31:59.387 Gammage once retained me. We weren't close friends, you forgot I was the 00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:03.986 sewer guy. But if she has suddenly had to go someplace you know they lived 00:32:04.019 --> 00:32:11.207 right in the middle of campus. Mhm. She would need a babysitter for gigi 00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:17.026 so when she needed a babysitter she'd just go out to her little white 00:32:17.059 --> 00:32:20.236 picket fence. You 00:32:20.269 --> 00:32:28.269 look good you'll do and call you over and and you know here would be g g. 00:32:28.940 --> 00:32:34.677 Uh probably sitting around reading about the land values are water rights 00:32:34.710 --> 00:32:42.710 or whatever little damages. Ah Right at the time because she was she was a 00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:50.306 real estate expert shark. Ah 00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:56.607 ah And and all of those people do kind of shape ah 00:32:56.640 --> 00:33:01.407 your life and what happens. And so I always thought a. S. U. Was a 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:07.407 wonderful laboratory of of learning and 00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:12.036 and I enjoyed all of it. I don't know if I would today it's a very 00:33:12.069 --> 00:33:14.707 different place 00:33:14.740 --> 00:33:22.740 and it's a very enormous place. So uh it's harder to make those 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:29.316 connections than than it was when when it was when everything Arizona's 00:33:29.349 --> 00:33:34.336 which smaller but while a S. U. Was kind of small at the time. Its 00:33:34.369 --> 00:33:39.907 aspirations are over the moon. And the people who 00:33:39.940 --> 00:33:45.377 we're professors there really we're committed to it. I mean they really 00:33:45.410 --> 00:33:51.266 care. I mean that's sewer thing. I don't think I ever saw anyone cares so 00:33:51.299 --> 00:33:55.806 much and 00:33:55.839 --> 00:34:02.256 and well I didn't all agree with her. I want to see her cry for God's sake. 00:34:02.289 --> 00:34:08.289 And they gave me the film, they gave me the film after they had it seized. 00:34:11.539 --> 00:34:13.539 You want to work for two guys that started the station was still I was I 00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:25.157 was working for them again a paycheck before they hired you. I know the 00:34:25.190 --> 00:34:32.816 hourly wage people didn't count the little people. Ah And then they hired 00:34:32.849 --> 00:34:38.106 a professional broadcaster or professional announcer 00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:43.577 who's going to bring professionalism which obviously people who worked out 00:34:43.610 --> 00:34:48.467 of sewers and borrowed mobile units in the middle of the night were hardly 00:34:48.500 --> 00:34:54.856 professional. So we hired you to come in and teach us how real 00:34:54.889 --> 00:35:01.106 broadcasters worked. And you were our first general manager. 00:35:01.139 --> 00:35:03.836 And 00:35:03.869 --> 00:35:07.927 well you weren't the founding general manager that was Dick Bell. 00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:15.960 Wonderful guy that we both liked a lot but he left. Ah 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:24.327 I think it took three times at the legislature before they would grant us 00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:32.307 permission and the money to go on the air K. E. T. 00:35:32.340 --> 00:35:35.706 Tell us about the call letters 00:35:35.739 --> 00:35:37.907 kate. 00:35:37.940 --> 00:35:43.126 We all had great ideas and and it was settled by the founding general 00:35:43.159 --> 00:35:49.506 manager. This wonderful guy by the name of Dr Bell who's the only one with 00:35:49.539 --> 00:35:53.947 the national credit. He had written scripts that have been on general 00:35:53.980 --> 00:36:01.980 electric playhouse. Anyway he had a logo he'd been working on of of of of 00:36:02.469 --> 00:36:04.697 the schoolmarm 00:36:04.730 --> 00:36:10.307 which somebody explained to me was a teacher, a schoolmarm next to a 00:36:10.340 --> 00:36:18.340 little school out of his Ohio passed that gas and the name of the school 00:36:18.670 --> 00:36:24.146 marm and the station will be Cape. And the closer he could get to kate was 00:36:24.179 --> 00:36:30.287 K. E. T. And you know the smart people all knew it had to be Arizona 00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:35.856 educational television. But that was not the intention it was to be Kate. 00:36:35.889 --> 00:36:40.347 I don't think she ever got on the air because Dick left for the University 00:36:40.380 --> 00:36:48.066 of Colorado where he hired me in the summers while I was getting my 00:36:48.099 --> 00:36:51.597 master's at the University of Denver. 00:36:51.630 --> 00:36:55.887 And then there was another another fellow that worked with you that came 00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:02.887 later later in your career was very important to you. Mr Grouper. Well he 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:10.920 was there um running the the Arizona state Radio network which had 60 or 00:37:13.769 --> 00:37:21.769 70 affiliates, Not that many, probably 40. And they got um 00:37:23.829 --> 00:37:28.697 A. S. U. Programs from its vitality 00:37:28.730 --> 00:37:34.887 and every once in awhile there'd be a tight budget and we were not going 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:41.896 to be able to send out another western business roundup because stations 00:37:41.929 --> 00:37:46.736 it really only took our programs to get the tape and they'd erase our 00:37:46.769 --> 00:37:52.977 program and put commercials and things on. So who's going to go out there 00:37:53.010 --> 00:38:00.066 , Not the university lawyer Charles. We're out of business if we don't get 00:38:00.099 --> 00:38:03.787 some tape. 00:38:03.820 --> 00:38:11.820 So, um, I would get my car. I think we were paying 00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:19.820 27 cents a mile. I can't something like that for gas. Um, make sure your 00:38:19.860 --> 00:38:24.686 back every night. We're not buying the motel room. 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:30.586 Huh? We don't want to see a state car in front of the motel 00:38:30.619 --> 00:38:35.387 and there weren't that many state cards. So 00:38:35.420 --> 00:38:41.166 okay. So I went from station to station became the station relations guy 00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:47.787 and I got the tape back and 00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:52.756 it was valuable. I met a lot of people who later on, It would be very 00:38:52.789 --> 00:38:57.367 helpful when Channel 81 on the air because I would go visit them and then 00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:01.177 go with them to the local cable company because the cable companies, 00:39:01.210 --> 00:39:06.086 little town, they were for the most part owned by people who lived there. 00:39:06.119 --> 00:39:12.267 So you go to globe and meet with Willard shoe craft. And he would see that 00:39:12.300 --> 00:39:19.526 eight was put on the cable systems he owned and he owned them. I think all 00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:25.887 the way down to Safford. So all all of those things sort of came back and 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:32.256 you know, played into the next, uh, the next step then after that you 00:39:32.289 --> 00:39:40.289 started directing and producing programs in the, those in the early days 00:39:40.619 --> 00:39:46.126 when we had tele courses we had tell accords. But I think unless you made 00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:50.586 this clear in, in your 00:39:50.619 --> 00:39:53.186 archival 00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:56.186 portrait, 00:39:56.219 --> 00:39:59.986 I still think the most innovative thing about Channel eight at the time is 00:40:00.019 --> 00:40:03.416 when we didn't have anything to put on the air. We went off, we went off 00:40:03.449 --> 00:40:09.086 the air many times. We go off the air at 11:30 and then we go to your 00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:15.927 house and your wife would serve up a wonderful peanut butter sandwich and 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:22.977 chicken noodle soup. You couldn't beat it. And I mean those are those, 00:40:23.010 --> 00:40:25.977 those memories have, 00:40:26.010 --> 00:40:29.367 I have never gone away and then you know if your manners are fairly good, 00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:34.077 you might end up with some of her cookies. 00:40:34.110 --> 00:40:38.626 She's closed the cookie business which was, that went on for quite a few 00:40:38.659 --> 00:40:44.747 years, decades by decades. But then you tell us about those wonderful 00:40:44.780 --> 00:40:50.756 programs and I do mean wonderful programs you produced I think probably uh 00:40:50.789 --> 00:40:58.106 , the, the, the hoot holler was was probably um, 00:40:58.139 --> 00:41:05.947 something that it was very successful and again, ah, it was not all that 00:41:05.980 --> 00:41:08.977 different than things I did at phoenix union or the mask of the yellow 00:41:09.010 --> 00:41:12.836 moon or or all of these other things. I mean I just keep repeating my 00:41:12.869 --> 00:41:19.177 childhood over and over and it goes on forever. Um, 00:41:19.210 --> 00:41:24.497 and so we, we were going to put on the evening of live folk music in 00:41:24.530 --> 00:41:27.376 stereo 00:41:27.409 --> 00:41:31.177 and we put it in 00:41:31.210 --> 00:41:36.577 next to the engineering center Where there was an inside patio with two 00:41:36.610 --> 00:41:42.166 cement ledges and we put cameras up there, cameras you've never seen 00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:48.776 before because they were borrowed and we, 00:41:48.809 --> 00:41:53.177 I didn't have the remote unit or it wasn't working if we had one. And so 00:41:53.210 --> 00:41:57.577 we had long cables and 00:41:57.610 --> 00:42:04.847 um Dolan Ellis was part of a very popular recording group. The new Christy 00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:12.066 minstrels at the time and he agreed to be in it and brought a lot of his 00:42:12.099 --> 00:42:20.099 friends and uh a lot of uh there were a number of groups from A S. U. That 00:42:21.989 --> 00:42:25.427 sang and it was absolutely, 00:42:25.460 --> 00:42:29.617 I would say in terms of production values looked as good as anything you 00:42:29.650 --> 00:42:35.367 would see on any network. What was the most frightening thing about the 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:41.947 the most frightening thing about students on the ledges? Well that was, I 00:42:41.980 --> 00:42:48.407 wasn't frightened by that. Well you know you've, you have really put up 00:42:48.440 --> 00:42:56.146 with a lot. I I do understand why your hair isn't black anymore. I'll take 00:42:56.179 --> 00:43:00.776 a a big share of that. Yes, there was always a problem. What are the 00:43:00.809 --> 00:43:05.827 students doing? You know, you could just look up there at sea. The only 00:43:05.860 --> 00:43:08.546 thing that worried me is whether they would put their girlfriends down 00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:13.876 long enough to get back To the camera. One of the terrific things about 00:43:13.909 --> 00:43:20.217 channel eight for most of the years I was connected with it. It used 00:43:20.250 --> 00:43:22.856 students 00:43:22.889 --> 00:43:28.486 in its productions no matter how big or how important and that gave them 00:43:28.519 --> 00:43:35.456 inspiration. It gave them resume material. It later got them jobs and I 00:43:35.489 --> 00:43:40.356 think that's something that was not something that most public stations 00:43:40.389 --> 00:43:48.389 did and it's something I certainly never regret it. Tell us about the cask 00:43:49.190 --> 00:43:57.190 of Mariana. Yeah, we have to bring that up. Oh God. Well 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:03.146 I decided I had a future in drama 00:44:03.179 --> 00:44:10.057 and I did, it just wasn't going to be at A S. U. So we were going to do 00:44:10.090 --> 00:44:16.356 Edgar Allen Poe's cask of Amontillado because it was short, 00:44:16.389 --> 00:44:19.456 it was in the public domain, 00:44:19.489 --> 00:44:24.856 you know, Channel eight's favorite budgetary Price zero. 00:44:24.889 --> 00:44:30.327 And we recruited some people from the drama departments and professors and 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:35.956 some others. And the guy who played mantra sore, 00:44:35.989 --> 00:44:40.336 you know, he's the one that gets sealed up, I think it's monstrous or that 00:44:40.369 --> 00:44:43.756 gets sealed in the wall. 00:44:43.789 --> 00:44:48.517 Well anyway, he was a drunk 00:44:48.550 --> 00:44:56.550 and you know, I started asthma. No, he was always drunk 00:44:57.969 --> 00:45:01.827 god. 00:45:01.860 --> 00:45:07.927 And we had to have a long tunnel that went to the cave and in the cave is 00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:15.960 where in a niche. Uh this guy gets 00:45:16.000 --> 00:45:20.557 cemented into the wall. 00:45:20.590 --> 00:45:24.956 So we made our cave out of 00:45:24.989 --> 00:45:32.989 um paper mache, we had a paper michigan to paper mache walls 00:45:32.989 --> 00:45:38.767 which mhm once we got past the first one, the actors were walking down 00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:41.657 walking down 00:45:41.690 --> 00:45:48.327 then we grab the first one and run it around and put it up here so that 00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:51.756 the tunnel will keep going 00:45:51.789 --> 00:45:54.756 and the 00:45:54.789 --> 00:46:02.247 graphic artist by the name of Michael brnovich misspelled the credit. 00:46:02.280 --> 00:46:05.066 Yes, 00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:08.597 I don't know if anyone liked the program but I sure heard about misspell 00:46:08.630 --> 00:46:15.247 credit for years and years and I think it really made me 00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:22.336 it developed a tic. I mean later on, I'm in Hollywood and we're about to 00:46:22.369 --> 00:46:27.447 produce steam bath and I won't let them start until I've seen the credits 00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:33.717 and sat there with the dictionaries going through every line. And that was 00:46:33.750 --> 00:46:38.867 just the recurring nightmares from the cask of Amontillado. 00:46:38.900 --> 00:46:46.900 I did not know lad mo well, he he gave me lessons on how to run A. Duma 00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:56.039 camera in 19 59 at Kpho when it was our only station. And it was located 00:46:57.380 --> 00:46:59.577 um 00:46:59.610 --> 00:47:04.606 9 21 North First Avenue. No, it's in the westward ho property because the 00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:10.947 owner of the westward Ho Was one of the owners of Channel five John Mills. 00:47:10.980 --> 00:47:18.980 Um funny guy, gregarious, really, very, very friendly and was a terrific 00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:24.646 cameraman. Ah 00:47:24.679 --> 00:47:26.847 and 00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:30.447 ah Wallace, 00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:37.046 really creative guy. He was the station art director, he was a fine artist. 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:42.546 And so you know, if somebody, 00:47:42.579 --> 00:47:48.236 I needed a rainbow bread slide or something, he would draw the love of 00:47:48.269 --> 00:47:50.396 brad 00:47:50.429 --> 00:47:57.247 create the slides and stuff for the for the commercial. 00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:05.280 Ah and I like them both. But I can't really say I knew uh Wallace, he he 00:48:06.829 --> 00:48:10.137 is one of the 00:48:10.170 --> 00:48:12.836 ah 00:48:12.869 --> 00:48:15.736 most 00:48:15.769 --> 00:48:23.769 that's very uh n word turn guys, he's I'm not sure anyone knows 00:48:25.969 --> 00:48:32.236 him very well except maybe immediate family members and maybe Pat McMahon 00:48:32.269 --> 00:48:37.006 and and certainly Wallace, which is one of the shy ist people I've ever 00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:42.037 ever met in my life and he would go on and be this character 00:48:42.070 --> 00:48:46.236 and you would think, oh boy, this is gonna be the life of any party. But 00:48:46.269 --> 00:48:54.269 the minute the on air lights were off, he would go back into this, this 00:48:55.570 --> 00:49:01.736 very talented, but very, 00:49:01.769 --> 00:49:05.936 and then bob can bring you up to date on famous majors. What it was like 00:49:05.969 --> 00:49:10.287 getting a degree for Al Michaels who would be involved in the Super Bowl 00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:14.936 this weekend 00:49:14.969 --> 00:49:20.597 without the Al Michaels might not have ever gotten a television job. It 00:49:20.630 --> 00:49:25.736 hadn't been for bob Ellis. I gave him a b in radio television announcement. 00:49:25.769 --> 00:49:28.686 I kept him from getting kicked out of school because he didn't show up 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:31.517 for finals. 00:49:31.550 --> 00:49:35.137 I went to see Alfred thomas JR 00:49:35.170 --> 00:49:38.037 and 00:49:38.070 --> 00:49:45.336 told him the reason that Al could not attend his exams 00:49:45.369 --> 00:49:48.546 was that 00:49:48.579 --> 00:49:56.579 they were midterms, was that the World series was on and that owl's 00:49:57.369 --> 00:50:03.227 whole life who turned around becoming a sportscaster someday. 00:50:03.260 --> 00:50:08.387 And and of course there was no videotape, there was no home tape, There 00:50:08.420 --> 00:50:15.407 was no VHS or DVR. So Al would sit in his apartment staring at the game 00:50:15.440 --> 00:50:21.206 with the sound off pretending that he is doing the play by play on the 00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:26.336 World series. He was just not available for other engagements, including 00:50:26.369 --> 00:50:30.626 going to class at that time 00:50:30.659 --> 00:50:32.727 and 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:37.126 Alice said, so do you think he's going to amount to anything? I said no, I 00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:45.159 think he is, he wants it so bad. He puts the work in it with no 00:50:45.340 --> 00:50:49.867 encouragement. His family wants him to go into producing game shows and 00:50:49.900 --> 00:50:54.267 they own a number of them. No, I think he's going to be very good. It's 00:50:54.300 --> 00:50:59.186 just his voice is terrible, his arrest the voice. And at that time all of 00:50:59.219 --> 00:51:06.010 the voices on the air, we're big. Alright. Like bob's voice professional. 00:51:06.349 --> 00:51:08.349 And he said, well, have I, have you looked at my slides? I'm a historian 00:51:13.309 --> 00:51:16.526 of a S. U. 00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:23.126 Okay. No, I'd love to see them. Yeah, 00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:28.626 three or 400 slides later. 00:51:28.659 --> 00:51:36.659 Al's fine. Alice is going to go forward. We've waved his midterms 00:51:37.659 --> 00:51:44.827 and Al was never sorry and neither was I uh and he's one of the highest 00:51:44.860 --> 00:51:51.876 paid play by play, guys out there. And we'll say to this day that he would 00:51:51.909 --> 00:51:57.889 have fallen off into something else and not achieved his dream.