and we're doing and living history. This is an oral oral history interview
for the living history video project for the area, Arizona State
University retiree association and is July the 11 and we're at the visitor
information center at A. S. U. And I'll let you introduce yourself of who
we're interviewing. Give me your full name and tell me what your title or
position was at issue. Are you sure you want my full name?
Ellen Moretti, Anderson, Hannah Bard Wick.
And what else did you want to know what you did at A. S. U. Ah I am now
called the founding dean of the College of Nursing.
Yes. Why don't we then back up from we've got the introduction here. Back
up and talk a little bit about your early life that and we'll start right
at the beginning, tell me where you were born when you were born. I was
born in Glencoe Illinois on september 3rd 1915.
It was a few years ago. Quite go. And was that a rural area? Where did you
grow up? You know I grew up in Winnetka Illinois. But the interesting part
about my birth is that my father was born in Sweden as was my mother and
he was a chauffeur mechanic for an estate in Glencoe along the lakeshore.
And that's where I was born on Sheridan Road. But we moved, he he later
left that and became a policeman and we moved to Winnetka where they have
a progressive school system, the Carleton Washburne progressive school
system. And we were my sister and I my sister was in the first class and I
was in the, were you a good student? No, well I was an okay student. I had
to be, I mean you know brought up in this Swedish family, you have to be
pretty industrious. But I would say I was, I was an average student. It
was a good school. I graduated from New trier High School which is pretty
well known and uh I've always been very thankful for that. Then. Where did
you go to college? Well I went to Michael Reese Hospital in Chicago to
pursue a diploma program. This was during the depression, there was no
money around But I had to earn $100 to go to school. So I I graduated from
High school when I was 16 and I had to stay home for a year before they
would accept me at the hospital. On my first interview I was told that I
was too immature that I probably would never finish but they would give me
a chance. And the reason I was too immature, I looked like a country
bumpkin. I think I had a lot of red hair, auburn hair that was flying
around and pink cheeks. And ah
that the director asked me why I chose Michael Reese and I, I just assumed
she knew they had good standards. I said well you have a swimming pool and
tennis courts and I, I like to swim, that's why she said I was immature I
guess. But then I was a lifeguard for the swimming floor and I earned 50
cents a night that was enough to pay for my toothbrushes. And that's all I
needed.
Why did and decided to go into, oh you don't know what you asked. I read a
book called nurses on horseback by Ernest pool and it was all about the
Kentucky mountains and nurses being with midwives there. And I had a
friend as I was growing up who had a horse and she had a friend who had a
pony but the friend who had the pony was always ill so I got to ride the
pony and so I like horseback riding and that's how I got into my head that
I could combine these things. I was interested in health and people and
sports and the out of doors therefore I would become a midwife
and then there is on horseback. I never got there. I was offered a
position there too late in life but I never got there. Um What did you do
program? I worked for a year doing private duty Like 20 hour duty where
you sleep under the bed of the patient you know and have a couple hours
off in the afternoon.
And that was private duty in the hospital in Chicago but things were too
slow. So I moved home to Winnetka and worked as a private duty nurse in
Highland park and Lake Forest, which was a pretty wealthy place and I
didn't very much appreciate some of the patients that I was sent to care
for because it seemed to me that they were just looking for a registered
nurse to sit with her cap on and her sharp uniform and there wasn't a lot
to do. So I got into trouble on some scores and I signed off some cases,
but I earned enough money to save tuition to go to the University of
Minnesota. So when I got to Minnesota I had a part time job at the
University of Minnesota hospitals as a charge nurse in obstetrics in the
evening. And then I registered for a full time course. It would take me
three years to get a bachelor's degree in order to work in the field of
public health
and I kind of petered out after the first year, it was a little difficult
, you know. So I went to ST. Paul and worked for 20 hour a week part time
job. The first one was 36 hours, that was part time and
Then I had to have three months for field work where I couldn't work at
all. And I got a $400 stipend from Minnesota state, the state of Minnesota
to complete the course
actually complete the course. Oh yes I completed the course nearly killed
myself doing it. But I did it.
And then what well when I was doing private duty I was taking care I was
home for a quarter because I couldn't get the courses I needed doing
private duty. I was taking care of a colonel gorilla who was one of the
original FDA people on the aeronautics board or whatever. I think he was
in the midst of a nervous breakdown. But he informed me he he was busy
interviewing me and want to know what I was going to do with my life. And
I said, well, I like the out of doors. And I heard about this labrador
coast, the Grenfell Association, the International Grenfell Association,
Dr Grenfell was a minister doctor who uh started uh service for the people
on the labrador who had no medical service. And
so somebody came from Lake Forest to interview me. One of the ladies who
was on one of their committees and I was accepted and I went to the
labrador and rode the dog sleds. And well, first I was assigned in
Newfoundland and I that that bothered me because they promised me I could
have a public health nursing job. And that year, the year I graduated from
Minnesota, I knew more than I've ever known in my life. You know, I had
that degree. So that was an awakening. And so one day dr Curtis who worked
up, there was in charge, looked at the was looking at the cows and and I
told him that I was not very happy with that. And where could I get out
and see the people? And he said well we send you over to the labrador. Of
course we have a doctor going on furlough and we need a replacement. And I
said now wait a minute, I'm not a doctor. He said oh I know that. But you
will do a lot better than some of these young impulsive doctors.
Why shipped out over to the labrador coast? And uh with the last boat that
put it was put it, no it was next to the last boat and I was a dentist and
I was the midwife and I was I had a set of broken bone once. And ah I
don't think you want to hear any more about that because it's pretty
extensive. The first patient I saw said came in and had a little
dispensary with the pharmacy and the whole business and and all. He looked
at me and then he'd get very bright red and he'd say I find myself I find
myself and I don't know what's going on here. Well that meant his knee
hurt. And so I wanted to roll up his pants to look at his knee, no, no, no
, no, no I couldn't do that. So I had quite a time getting used to this
and another young fishermen came in and he said his jaw hurt, I had to
pull his tooth and I thought oh no well the dentist in ST Anthony had
drawn in Newfoundland before I went over had drawn a chart for me of teeth
and what kind of forceps you use on which teeth and where you put the
anesthesia. And so I would always say, you know, although I'll have to
I'll be back soon and I'll go look at my material and then I have to come
back. And I I didn't put the novocaine in the frame and in the here where
it should go because I was afraid I wouldn't hit it straight, you know.
But I gave him some, well this was an upper left molar. I remember very
well. And uh
I put the forceps on, I couldn't move it and I said I, you know and he
said I got to get it out. MS got to get it out hurts worse in and out. So
every time I would pause he would come up with this thing. So I just had
to pursue it. But I got the right forceps. I didn't break any roots. And I
got the tooth out. But I didn't pull any more teeth. But they didn't ask
me to
like quite an adventure.
Came pretty close to being that nurse. Of course
That's a long way from Arizona. I delivered 12 babies up there in their
homes and in the hospital and the Lord was with me. They were all okay.
Excuse me. I had to say that that's pretty important. That's pretty
exciting part of your life there
from Newfoundland two.
Do you really want to hear all the places that I went from? Newfoundland?
I went home and I decided that I need some supervised experience because I
was way out there. You know, I wanted to do everything my way. And so I
went to, I was interviewed by the director of the community service
society of two social agencies in new york city where they had a family
health teaching program and it was supposed to be a model that was
supposed to be excellent experience. So she interviewed me at the train
depot in Chicago I think. And she was coming through someplace. The
director of the program
and I took that job and I went to new york and I didn't know anybody and I
didn't know about the subways and I didn't know about new york city. And
here I was in a job where I was doing home visits. A lot of them were
along the whole 3rd Avenue L where the Puerto Rican people had come in and
a lot of Jewish people were peddling
quite an interesting experience because I could sort of plan my own
caseload my own time. And the supervisor there uh
encouraged me and not only encouraged me, but we're alright encouraged me
to go to Haiti. Uh she had accepted a position or said she would if she
could choose the person who would go with her two. I think the assignment
was to establish public health nursing uh in the cities in in the rural
country. Now, how are you going to establish public health nursing in
Haiti. Well that's another question. I have had three years of french in
high school and that was, she was born in France and spoke french very
well. And so I went to Haiti and uh I was teaching students there in the
hospital for a year and then I went on to Puerto prance to the slums of
Puerto France and started a public health oh field experience. And I was
there for five years and that was time to see some results. It was quite a
fascinating experience if one learned to look two ft above the ground
because it was without
sewer dredge and whatnot. It was a little difficult to get used to. And
they had my trains there, administrator of the hospital took me out to
look the place over and there was some light trains there. I said what are
these? And so he asked the people, they were all nailed shut and they said
all those are like trains or why are they nailed shut because they're all
filled up. And uh I said, well why is that? And he said because the
americans put them in there and they won't clean them out and the Haitians
will clean them out because the americans put them in there. Anyway,
We had this uh supervisor and I had ushered six Haitian doctors around New
York City before we went to Haiti. So I knew some of those people. So I
talked to some of them and they said, well for me, they'd get them cleaned
out.
Well, that was just a little sample of some of the obstacles we had and
trying to establish a program, but it was quite an experience. And so then
when did you finally come to Arizona? Well from Haiti, I went to Cornell
and earned a Master's in child development, adult education. And from
there,
I uh
oh, I was doing a thesis on child guidance and public health nursing. And
I, my advisor, the person who had been my advisor, Margaret Einstein at
the University of Minnesota had moved to Washington. So I saw her there
and she said in the course of my looking for material for my thesis. And
so she said, are you looking for a job? I said, no, I'm tired when I get
through with this, I you know, I'm not going to work for a while. She said
, oh that's perfectly all right, but we do have a job for you. And I said
, oh yes, what's that? What turns out to be? The National Institute of
Mental Health was starting a mental to mental health centers and the 2nd 1
was to be in Phoenix. And that's how I came to phoenix. I was sort of
convinced that I was a mental health nurse because their mental health
nurses had not yet gone to school, they were just starting the psychiatric
mental health master's programs. But I have had mental health that
Minnesota, she told me and I said no, I had and she said yes, I had, she
knew she was there, but I apparently was so tired and beat up. I couldn't
remember what I had when I didn't have. So I came to Phoenix in 1948 for
the mental health center. And where was that? That was at phoenix college.
The offices were at phoenix college and I was the only woman on the staff.
And there were two psychiatrists, a child psychiatrist and an adult
psychiatrist, a social couple of social workers and psychologists and
anthropologists and epidemiologist.
And it was a five year education, four years for 48 - 52. How many years
is that? That's four years.
And so then there was much talk about, I should go get a PhD public health
service, you know this and that. I said, no, no, no, I don't want a PhD,
I'm not going to be in academia and not me, I'm a public health nurse. And
so uh
they can, they encouraged me to go to Hopkins to be interviewed and uh I
said I didn't want that job. Well you have to at least go, the director
told me. I said, well I'm just telling you and I went, I was offered the
job and I refused the job. And because then of course I had to work on my
PhD to retain the position. I didn't, I liked Arizona. So I went, I
applied for five positions in California at the staff, public health
nursing level. That's what I decided I wanted to do. I got all five
positions and so I accepted the one in Alameda County and lived in
Berkeley and drove to Hayward. I guess it was. That's quite a story. But I
don't know if you want to hear that
they're so at the end of the year they asked me to be a supervisor and I
said no thank you, I can't fulfill his position in the way that I should.
And so I don't think that I can expect other people to do that either.
So how did you get back to Arizona? My, I had, I had bought a house On
25th place north of McDowell for $4,000 and my parents moved here from
Winnetka and my mother wanted this old house and my father, they had
horses and a very modest house. But my father, I didn't want to start
another house and he didn't have the money, he didn't want to sell that
one. And so for $1,000 down And $100 a month, I bought that house. And we
I also fixed it up, knocked down a few walls and you know made an archway
and so forth. You really got me started on this thing.
I thought this is what we're trying to get you to a S. U. But first we've
got to figure out how you got to Arizona. So well when I came back from
California when I resigned in California came back to phoenix because my
parents were here and
I thought I was gonna just maybe go back with public health service and go
to Indonesia because they spoke french there. When I called the called
Washington they sent me a whole new application with all this red tape and
I thought if they have to do that I don't want that job. And so I was
sitting there and the director of nursing from a good samaritan called and
wanted me to have lunch with her and I said oh I hear you're looking for a
replacement. She said yes. I said well I'm not the replacement. I just I'm
not I'm a public health nurse, mental health nurse that's not for me. Well
you can have lunch with me anyway she said so I went over and had lunch
with her. She introduced me to the administrator
and uh he I walked down the hall at least I could go see him that would
make him believe she was looking for someone. And I went there and he
first question he asked me was uh what is your religion? And I thought
well I don't want this job. So all and I said, well let's see, I think I
went to an evangelical church when I was a child, my parents were Lutheran
and then after that in Minnesota I went to a Unitarian church and when I
went to Haiti I went to a catholic church. And at this point he said look
he said what I want to know is are you protestant or catholic? I felt like
saying well why didn't you ask me? And he said, well the board here is
methodist and we can't we just although it's not really the governing
board, we cannot afford to have a catholic Director of direction. And I
said well I'm not catholic. So I must be protestant.
They want to know about the just said I'm not qualified for this position
at all. And he said, my director says you are therefore you are, you're
one of three nurses with a master's degree in Arizona. My director is one
who is josephine steiner barred Wick. And my Bard Wick Bargor and she had
married the pathologist at Good Sam and and L one, it's got loose loose.
I
have forgotten her first name. Alan was the director in Tucson and I was
the third one. And so therefore I was going to take the job because he
needed somebody with a master's degree because he needed to get his school
of nursing program accredited.
So he said I'll tell you what he said, we'll keep the present director to
orient you. And in three months if you don't like us, you can leave if we
don't like you will ask you to leave, How's that? I said, well that's
that's pretty neat, you've got air conditioning here and I don't have that
at home.
And so he said, well you can't have a desk. I said fine, I don't like
disks. So we went down the hall to the director's office and we chatted a
bit and after he left, she said, tell me are you coming or not? And I said
, well I didn't say I would not. So I guess I'm coming,
that's terrible. But anyway, I stayed there for years and while I was
there we had
a lot of activity. I had been, I had gone to school at the University of
Chicago in the summer after I finished Cornell to take some courses they
wanted me to take, I took carl Rogers group psychotherapy course, some
personal counseling courses, things like that. So they were they were very
helpful to me in uh administration as well as my psychiatric experience at
the mental health center, that's what everybody needs an administration.
And so everybody was working on trying to get a collegiate program because
ah nurses in Arizona,
we're always moving from Arizona to California. This is there stopping
place because they get experience and then they get a better job. Our
salaries were low and so we battled for better salaries. Many
organizations were opting for a collegiate program. Guy Hanner had been
working on it. He said for 10 years and so I asked him to be okay if I
worked on it and he said that would be fine. So I had some discussions
with norman ross in the corridor, the doctor norman ross who was head of
the mental health commission, mental health governors console or something
when Mcfarland was in. And so he said to me, if you do what I tell you and
then you will have uh you will have approval for school of nursing. And I
said fine, tell me. And so he did and I did and it got approved. Now we
weren't the only ones it was that all these people were working on it. But
when it was brought up by the U. Of a, it would be voted down. It was
brought up by a S. U. It was voted down. So he said what you need to do is
get people together to recommend that one or more schools be established.
So we did that and sent letters appropriation committee, the governor and
everybody else. And and it got approved. And the problem was That the U.
of a recruited a director in January of 19
57 And we did not have one. And so uh I knew a few people in California
that we brought over and Grady Gammage and tilden and few of us would
interview them but they didn't want the job. And uh Alice Engelmayer was
really great but oh she would like to come but her husband wouldn't come.
And so at that time Dean tilden said, well I would think that if she
wanted to come that her husband ought to come, I said oh I don't think so.
And that later showed up when I
accepted the position and uh I got a ring, an engagement ring from Guy
handler and showed it to Arnold tilden and one morning in the office and
he disappeared, he didn't say a word, he just looked at me and disappeared
and I've forgotten, who else was there? It was one of the secretaries and
I said, what's that all about? They said, oh he went to call Guy Hannah to
find out if you're going to still be working. So those were in the days
and he probably said that because I said, you know, you should probably do
what your husband, so
go ahead and said indeed I would be working apparently
because he told me I couldn't even think of resigning for five years when
you accept a responsible position like that that I had been pushed into.
So when was that? And what was the actual position that you took? I took
the position as director of the School of Nursing at s see this was the
year before the referendum vote before
Arizona state became a university and with the promise that Arnold
Children would, I told them I didn't know anything about administration in
an academic institution and that's okay, that's okay. Other people around
here knew that they wanted my experience. And so I said okay fine because
we were really pushed, you know, here we were without a director after all
our hard work. And so um
so you've a and a the School of Nursing the same year and also I don't
know when n au started but it was also approved for them and they have had
a collegiate school. What year was that? 57 when I don't think any you
started that year. I've forgotten when they started what what was a issue
like that year when you came and actually worked at A. S. U. On campus. I
came,
hey wait Arnold Children was in a situation where the border regions had
to prove the position so he couldn't really offer me that position until
it had been approved. So on on a saturday I guess it must have been around
The weekend before April one or something. The Board of Regents met. They
approved the position. My mother said that he'd been looking all over for
me and that it was on sunday and I'd gone to a friend's house to go
swimming and have dinner or something and this poor man was distraught and
I just better call him. And so I called him and he said I have the
contract in the car, are you going to take this position?
So
I said well yes I am and he said well then I won't need to bring the
contract over when you come to the office and sign it in the morning. I
said yes I'll do that. So he was in the administration building, I went to
the office to sign it and he said well this is the space you should have.
He had a lot of applications lined up prospective applications because I
had said they probably didn't have any applications. They needed a person
with a PhD you know now you can see we have applications but I don't know
what you're gonna do here. He said all I need from you is a five year plan
of the amount of space you need. So how many students you can uh you will
be entering And how many faculty you will need for five years and I don't
think you can get the information around here. And so I thought well so I
left his office, he said gave me a catalog. He said you better read this.
So I left his office and I walked up Mill Avenue that was before the mall
was there. And I can remember walking up the ball with the trees over the
sidewalk saying to myself, you are the biggest fool that ever existed.
What was Arnold tilden's? Well that was interesting. He was just appointed
the Dean of the College of Liberal Arts, but you see the president was the
Dean, so to speak because we weren't yet S. U. Was not into being yet.
That was the big fight. So what we called him the Dean, Arnold, who was
president present damage. It was still it wasn't the university yet. No,
it wasn't university until the next year.
You say you went to the administration building. Where was that? Oh I
think it's the same place,
that's the building that still exists. Um And mary Bunty was the
uh I don't know whether she was called a secretary, but she was a lot. She
was very very helpful, a forceful person. I learned that when she told me
that I should remember that we women have to stick together because
you know, there weren't very many women around in the academic, I think I
was the first dean of the
first woman Dean, Katherine Nichols told me that she was an associate dean
and she said to me, you know, you're the first dean. I said no I'm not,
you're a dean. And she said, oh yes, but I'm just an associate dean. Never
occurred to me before that that would mean anything. And so there I was,
you know, I didn't ever feel like a dean. We became a college in 1963,
I think 64, something like that. I was in brazil at the time and they
wired me to let me know that. I was now a professor and a dean. I was with
the Peace Corps.
Get around.
What did you do that first year? Did you have an office or? Yes, they
found an office for into the basement of
what was then Matthews Library. That's an art center now believe. And it
was a little square place that you could put two chairs in with the
bookcase about this wide that went off and it was a real cozy place.
Didn't have any windows and stuff but that's okay. It was a desk and it
was an office and
then we removed to the basement of the adjoining building. That's an annex
, it's just west of that. We were in the basement.
I think it was a different building. I had a lot of pipes in the ceiling
and that sort of thing. We have pictures of that Dorothy McLeod teaching
her science classes there. How big was the school when you first started?
Well we had to admit students the first year in order to justify our
existence. And so according to the league regulations you're supposed to
be appointed a year before you admit students but they're not very
practical. So I was appointed April one but we had to admit students In
September so we had 48 students and we established a beginning freshman
class. Introduction to nursing 101 With 48 students in the second we
offered it both semesters and along with 10.2 And we had eight students a
second time. So there are about 53 students who began. You wanna know how
many graduates? Six
Out of the 50, 48 was over 50 because it was a tough course.
Well there's the admission standards were very very, I thought limited in
those days. Students had difficulty communicating. They uh I hadn't
learned to study. They, I really didn't had difficulty understanding it
probably because of my own education. Had had, I've been really lucky to
go to a good high school but they couldn't write, they couldn't, well they
didn't know what nursing was. And so we had a course that we tried to
orient them to health what health was. And
I remember we even had them have a physical and we went over the physical
exam with them and I thought that was very good. Everybody ought to do
that. So they understand you know how their own health is. And then we had
them visit different health agencies in the community like the Arizona
State Hospital. Good sam I think secretary, one of the indian hospitals.
Then they would make blogs and observe and come back to their group and
discuss what they had seen so that all the students in the group profit
from their experience as well as get the experience of writing and
discussing which I could have used myself. But that's maybe why we had it.
We recruited uh Dorothy McLeod in september She was our second fight, I
was the first and she was the 2nd 1 and then we started the course and
then in january L. M. A. Brand steadier came and she had been in visiting
nurse service here in phoenix and had a bachelor's and had gone to
Minnesota to take the new course in psychiatric mental health nursing at
the masters level. And so we had recruited her in january and that was
quite a tall tale too. But I don't think we have much time left do we? We
got some,
maybe Ellie could tell you about that.
So it sounds like you know you had your work cut out for you, starting the
whole school from scratch. Exactly. And the thing that was so nice was the
thing that really saved us of course was the the community like people
like Ellie and she was uh I would say about the most important faculty
member we had we did recruit Janet walker from U. C. L. A. Who was very
good administrator and very helpful to me. She was unstinting
time and knowledge. Tell me a little bit more about how the school grew
like you said you started with six and then we we started registered
nurses and uh they didn't take the introductory course. We had, I had a
course that was sort of an orientation course for registered nurses and
they were given were given or granted some credit for there licenser in
the beginning and then credit was given by examination later on, there was
a National League for Nursing test that they took and so they they got
about, they had to spend about three years in school and before they got a
bachelor's degree which was a real bone of contention and it was very
difficult, it was a very difficult change for them, so a lot of them would
end up in my office of course, that's where my time went, trying to help
people adjust to the change. And so I would say, well of course I could
relate to them because I had been a hospital graduate and I had done 20
our duty and I had done staff earth and maybe Arnold Children was right,
that really kind of helped the situation, they didn't get mad at me, but
they would bang on that desk, you know, I would say yes, but you're
getting a bright new degree now, you know?
So it was a big change for for for women to come and get nursing degrees
at a college as opposed to going to just a hospital. Oh yeah, that was
still is, it was a big thing because in the hospital uh we had to do a lot
of work and that kept the hospital costs low as you know, and uh the
diploma students got a lot of experience, but that's why we wanted to move
nursing to a collegiate setting so that the students would learn skills
enough to know understand them but they wouldn't be apprenticing, they
wouldn't be practicing. And
so the student had to pay for all their own expenses. So when the
registered nurses came back to school they had to pay tuition to for the
courses and it was a change of setting for them and they thought that they
ought to take a course or two and they knew more than those youngsters and
they did in many ways and that mm hmm. That that we should give them a
degree. But Alfred thomas was a big help with that. We were ahead of. I
learned many schools because he cooperated so well with the transcripts
and the evaluation and and maintaining our generic baccalaureate for your
program. Was it primarily women that were kept coming to the school
primarily. But we had some men that were had been physician's assistants
in the service. And I remember that I taught clinical community nursing in
Avondale after I resigned from the Dean In 1970s. So I think I was I was
teaching public health nurses for public health nursing for about six
years. I think I worked on the administration course for a while. But
there were men there and I just get them out in Avondale that was a good
place for them. They were very good and very very knowledgeable. It was a
pleasure to have them. So how long were you ready? Well I was at a. s. U.
from 1957 to 19.
Well I was still at A. S. U. I was on a leave to go to the Peace Corps
from 1964 to 66. And I also the year before that was on a three month
leave to do a survey Turkey Pakistan and Iran to identify nursing leaders
for Central Central which was the central nurses
think about treaty organization. I haven't got that exactly straight. And
then I went back the second year they invited me to come back for the
conference after we had identified the nurses one year. Then we were to go
back. They didn't invite the other person back but they invited me to come
back for the conference and that and I went around the world
dr brian who was the vice president to Durham. Um
I was tired and I wasn't ready to go back. And he said that that was good
for the university for me to do that. And I wanted a overseas program
someplace for the students. You know that junior year program or senior
year program. Because I because I thought because of my own experience no
doubt that was very broadening to B. C. Another culture and work in
another culture. So he said you can visit the Philippines, you can go
around the world on the way back. So I went around the world on the way
back and I was gone a month. And I was really beat when I got back and
when I got back was when they greeted me at the airplane on Janet walker
with this application for the Peace Corps that I was to sign. And that's
how I got in going with the Peace Corps again, we couldn't find anybody
that they thought qualified. So the story was that if you don't go, we
don't get the grant. And so I went,
So then you came back. Yeah, that's that's when the building. I had worked
on plans for the building and gotten some blueprints from Wayne State
University for Gilbert Katie. And
there I met uh, a playmate that I had known in Winnetka who was secretary
to the border regions. And so he was very helpful and
I came back and when the building was dedicated, as soon as I get got back
, Rosemary johnson was the acting dean and she had everything really well
organized and was really put out with me because there was no carpeting in
the Dean's office when and there was no bathroom and I said, we certainly
don't need a bathroom and we can get along without the carpeting. I had
been working in brazil. And if I explain the conditions to you, you would
understand and poor Rosemary. She didn't like that of course because she
had been plugging to have an office. That was as good as the business
college had the Dean's office should be as good. And I didn't understand
that at the time. You know, it was kind of out space.
So, so did you come back then and become the Dean again? You know when I
came back I was a dean, They wired me that I was the Dean when I was in uh
motto Grosso brazil. I was there with Jim Cressman and
that I was now a professor and a dean. So they expected me back. I don't
know if everybody did, but I expected to come back. It was just, it was a
two year assignment with a grip. That was well, it was quite an education
there. I met art barney quick and that's how I have to do Merry. five
years later he came to Phoenix and we got married
17 years later, he died. So there I was again,
it must have been quite a change to come back and have a whole building
for nursing. Yes, it was very odd. We've been in the annex of the old,
I've forgotten the name of the people who Joyce home on forest and Orange
. I guess it was when I left. And so everybody was really spiffed up and
we had quite a dedication ceremony and lulu Hassan plug came and Dean
Children was there.
It must have been
drill was there. Gilbert Katie and Gilbert Katie was a great help while I
was gone. He was going to supervise things. See that everything went well
of course, along with Ryan, you know. Well anyway, so how long were you
here after when you came back? Well I resigned in 1971 as dean. And then I
continued teaching clinical nursing while I was gone for a month or two.
And and uh, they needed somebody for the administration program. My
husband had said he didn't want me to work. So I said fine, I won't leave.
And so faculty got ahold of him at a cocktail party and oh that isn't all
he wanted to be a radio operator on the ship hope. And so one of them
Dorothy corona told him, oh she could fix that up. And the next day, next
week I think it took a one week before I got a call offering me a job with
Ship Hope for the summer. And so uh I said to art, you know, you want the
job. I don't, he said, oh but I have to go, we just have to go. So we went
to brazil to receive and I helped them do a survey for a master's program
for a course in they want to develop a master's program, wrote a report in
Portuguese delivered it in Portuguese. It was tough and in the three
months period I went, came back that was before I started Avondale, this
was after I resigned as Dean and then before I started in Avondale, I'm
lost. Now I'm sorry I deviated. So that was in the 70s then. Yes that was
1970 70 One when I resigned. So then I was worked in avondale until 1980.
I resigned in 1980. And then I wrote the history of the College of Nursing
for three years
again. That was because my husband said that I had do this volunteer work.
You know I think he wanted to keep me out of his hair. He thought he's
gonna have trouble with me if he didn't keep me busy. Ha ha ha. That's
right yeah. Tell me um what is the most memorable event of your time at A
. S. U.
Oh well I think I explained to you the most memorable but I can think of a
funny one, the most memorable one was walking down Mill Avenue after I
signed that contract. I can still feel how stupid I feel. But a memorable
one was when I came back from brazil for the graduate, I came back in time
for graduation somehow or other. And uh you know you put all your robes in
the room and all this stuff and I went in the room and there was Gilbert,
Katie and Jim Cressman talking and one of them said to the other, you tell
her and the other one said no you tell her and I said what's up? And so uh
Gilbert crazy. Katie started telling me how well I looked and so forth.
And jim said no you don't tell her that. He said you just tell her
straight how it is. Don't beat around the bush. And so he said we have
flowers
ali from Hawaii for President Durham and we need you to put it around his
neck. And I said no thank you
get somebody else to do it. Well again there's nobody else to do it. So
there I had put the lay on President kiss him on both cheeks at the
graduation.
That's very memorable. I've never told that one before. And afterwards
Dean Overman said well he just didn't think it was fair. I said what isn't
fair? And he said well after all you're a woman and you have the advantage
you get to put the lay on the President
and then they would complain and say that something about the robes hadn't
gotten pressed. And I said well so you go home and expect your wife to
press your robe and I have to go home and press my own.
Well I probably shouldn't say all this describe a little bit about how a.
S. U. Changed from the first time you came here in the fifties until In
the 80s when you were here. Right. Well it grew and grew and grew and I
just couldn't it was so difficult to recruit faculties to to match the
students. The we had
I think I've forgotten how many students in the 3rd and 4th classes. And
we had when I wrote the college of nursing history we had 2500 graduates.
And when I got the last bulletin from the dean there were 5600 graduates.
And they had located them. The alumni had located them and there were
every state of the union had some of our graduates plus countries in
europe France And I forgot there about six listed. But I was amazed. And
the thing that amazed me more is the way I hear from students and meet
students from the school. Doesn't seem it just seems that wherever I go I
went to a nutrition lecture no long ago I was involved in something else.
And I sat at the table I had a friend of mine with me who was not a nurse
and sat at the table was really sharp looking young lady. We started to
talk about what a nice evening it was or something and oh I said to her ma
you look sharp and she said well I've been working hard all day. I said
well I don't believe it. And and it turned out she was in a S. U. Graduate
and she looked at me and said are you a nurse and I said well yes and she
said I've seen you someplace before that was before I learned to ask you
graduate. I said when did you graduate? I said I don't think so I don't
think you've seen me. And she said, oh yes. And she had seen my portraits
and I thought well how could you ever remember that? I don't look like
that anymore.
I know that's kind of cute. And my nephew was in my marriage was in Israel
and he found in one of our graduates there that knew me. What kind of
advice do you two young people who are just starting out and choosing a
college and choosing a career? What kind of advice?
Well usually I try to find out what they were interested in because giving
advice is a little difficult. And I think what I tried to steer them to
was to be a beginning nurse. You know, before they thought of being you
can't manage something you don't know and they really weren't practiced.
You know, they had a bachelor's degree with all those other people had
experience and so they needed to find beginning positions and feel
comfortable in them and decide then what area of nursing was best for them.
And we would discuss what area would be best for them to look for a staff
position. Why would people want to be a nurse right now they're having
trouble finding enough nurses beats me. I wonder sometimes
I think that the students we had would always say that they were
interested in people and they wanted to take care of people and there was
somebody in their family that there was an illness and that they had been
the one that had taken care of. I was the one who took care of my mother
and my family when she was ill. Once there was once she was ill and
they're they're just outgoing
caring people I think. I don't know what else to say. They want to help
the world. That's the trouble. Some of them want to help the world too
much. It's a difficult. Oh yes it's very difficult job but then it has a
lot of satisfaction if you get into a position that you like. It's and I
say I don't like administration, I don't but I sure like the people and
the students, the salaries for nurses. How have those changed since you
started? Well when I took that job. Good sam the administrator informed me
they couldn't pay me what I've been getting the public health service but
I had to accept the job anyway because they needed me. You see his father
had been a minister, so he had learned
the lingual.
The salaries were very poor. And uh I remember that but my salary was
pretty good. I
I was offered $9,000 a year and that was about double what I was making a
good sam. The beginning instructor's salary I was looking at the first
year I think was around 4,000-4,500.
And we expected uh an instructor who was licensed in nursing who had who
had a nursing specialty in the master's degree, who had a car You could
drive, it could find her way around to be independent for $4,000.
And that was really pretty tough. I could write a book on the experiences
I had, trying to recruit faculty. What did nurses make when they graduated
? Well, when I was a good sam, the salaries were the hospital nurses were
, I don't think I'm wrong about this. They were under $100 a month. When I
graduated from Michael Reese, there were about $60 a month. uh that of
course was in 1936. So that was some time ago. But at times were tough.
And
so nurses,
I felt that were diploma graduates that these youngsters were going to
pass them up and get all the promotions because they had a degree. And of
course that could be true sometimes, but if there was a good person and a
good job, it was very doubtful she would be displaced.
We're just about through with this. Our anything.
Well, I didn't have to worry with all of my malarkey did. I got so many
stories.
Mhm. But that wasn't so much about the college. You know, it was mentioned.
I think in the, tell me what the budget was for the first year. Oh, it
was at the end of this, the budget was
where is the right piece of paper?
Huh? I would have it here.
I think it was,
I can't leave this position
but $20,000. That was first. That was for the secretary and myself and
there wasn't any travel I think. And that's when uh good samaritan
hospital came to the rescue and I visited Wayne commitment, not Wayne. I
visited in Seattle the university of Washington to get ideas about what
the progressive programs. I think Arnold Children went with me to san Jose
State College.
But their budget was extremely limited. I think the third year we started
to get some grants, federal grants And these increased until we almost had
a 5050 right Position at one time.
How did the school change when when Arizona State College became a
university? Did that make a difference?
I think the school chair Rosemary thought the school changed a lot when we
moved into the new building because of the we were no that we were no
longer underground or in an old building. And if Dean Children hadn't been
here, we still wouldn't have that new building. I don't think he helped
with the politics about what to do when when I was asked if like the
mormon church would do for us to move into that. He he told me, you know,
you have to go and look at it and be sure to be sure that you asked for
all the remodeling that you're going to need. In other words be specific.
Well the remodeling was so much that that didn't work, you see, But I
didn't see that, you know, I was just looking for more space. He was
keeping it on opting until we could get a building and he was very
disappointed that we got the building we did. He thought we should have
been over on this side. So we have room for expansion, but we're bored, I
guess having a building of your own made you more like a real college and
the building is modeled after wayne.