WEBVTT 00:00:06.790 --> 00:00:08.790 and we're doing and living history. This is an oral oral history interview 00:00:13.029 --> 00:00:16.296 for the living history video project for the area, Arizona State 00:00:16.329 --> 00:00:23.006 University retiree association and is July the 11 and we're at the visitor 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:28.936 information center at A. S. U. And I'll let you introduce yourself of who 00:00:28.969 --> 00:00:34.146 we're interviewing. Give me your full name and tell me what your title or 00:00:34.179 --> 00:00:39.307 position was at issue. Are you sure you want my full name? 00:00:39.340 --> 00:00:47.107 Ellen Moretti, Anderson, Hannah Bard Wick. 00:00:47.140 --> 00:00:53.376 And what else did you want to know what you did at A. S. U. Ah I am now 00:00:53.409 --> 00:00:59.307 called the founding dean of the College of Nursing. 00:00:59.340 --> 00:01:03.646 Yes. Why don't we then back up from we've got the introduction here. Back 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:09.266 up and talk a little bit about your early life that and we'll start right 00:01:09.299 --> 00:01:12.626 at the beginning, tell me where you were born when you were born. I was 00:01:12.659 --> 00:01:20.659 born in Glencoe Illinois on september 3rd 1915. 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:29.436 It was a few years ago. Quite go. And was that a rural area? Where did you 00:01:29.469 --> 00:01:35.227 grow up? You know I grew up in Winnetka Illinois. But the interesting part 00:01:35.260 --> 00:01:41.826 about my birth is that my father was born in Sweden as was my mother and 00:01:41.859 --> 00:01:49.507 he was a chauffeur mechanic for an estate in Glencoe along the lakeshore. 00:01:49.540 --> 00:01:55.876 And that's where I was born on Sheridan Road. But we moved, he he later 00:01:55.909 --> 00:02:02.227 left that and became a policeman and we moved to Winnetka where they have 00:02:02.260 --> 00:02:07.236 a progressive school system, the Carleton Washburne progressive school 00:02:07.269 --> 00:02:12.057 system. And we were my sister and I my sister was in the first class and I 00:02:12.090 --> 00:02:18.906 was in the, were you a good student? No, well I was an okay student. I had 00:02:18.939 --> 00:02:24.476 to be, I mean you know brought up in this Swedish family, you have to be 00:02:24.509 --> 00:02:30.696 pretty industrious. But I would say I was, I was an average student. It 00:02:30.729 --> 00:02:34.647 was a good school. I graduated from New trier High School which is pretty 00:02:34.680 --> 00:02:40.297 well known and uh I've always been very thankful for that. Then. Where did 00:02:40.330 --> 00:02:45.997 you go to college? Well I went to Michael Reese Hospital in Chicago to 00:02:46.030 --> 00:02:49.267 pursue a diploma program. This was during the depression, there was no 00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:57.300 money around But I had to earn $100 to go to school. So I I graduated from 00:02:57.939 --> 00:03:02.677 High school when I was 16 and I had to stay home for a year before they 00:03:02.710 --> 00:03:10.626 would accept me at the hospital. On my first interview I was told that I 00:03:10.659 --> 00:03:15.267 was too immature that I probably would never finish but they would give me 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:20.256 a chance. And the reason I was too immature, I looked like a country 00:03:20.289 --> 00:03:24.147 bumpkin. I think I had a lot of red hair, auburn hair that was flying 00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:32.180 around and pink cheeks. And ah 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:37.487 that the director asked me why I chose Michael Reese and I, I just assumed 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:41.656 she knew they had good standards. I said well you have a swimming pool and 00:03:41.689 --> 00:03:47.786 tennis courts and I, I like to swim, that's why she said I was immature I 00:03:47.819 --> 00:03:51.927 guess. But then I was a lifeguard for the swimming floor and I earned 50 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.557 cents a night that was enough to pay for my toothbrushes. And that's all I 00:03:55.590 --> 00:03:57.707 needed. 00:03:57.740 --> 00:04:05.397 Why did and decided to go into, oh you don't know what you asked. I read a 00:04:05.430 --> 00:04:12.987 book called nurses on horseback by Ernest pool and it was all about the 00:04:13.020 --> 00:04:18.046 Kentucky mountains and nurses being with midwives there. And I had a 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:21.707 friend as I was growing up who had a horse and she had a friend who had a 00:04:21.740 --> 00:04:26.176 pony but the friend who had the pony was always ill so I got to ride the 00:04:26.209 --> 00:04:34.209 pony and so I like horseback riding and that's how I got into my head that 00:04:35.139 --> 00:04:40.286 I could combine these things. I was interested in health and people and 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:48.319 sports and the out of doors therefore I would become a midwife 00:04:48.339 --> 00:04:52.687 and then there is on horseback. I never got there. I was offered a 00:04:52.720 --> 00:05:00.106 position there too late in life but I never got there. Um What did you do 00:05:00.139 --> 00:05:08.139 program? I worked for a year doing private duty Like 20 hour duty where 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:13.746 you sleep under the bed of the patient you know and have a couple hours 00:05:13.779 --> 00:05:16.906 off in the afternoon. 00:05:16.939 --> 00:05:21.707 And that was private duty in the hospital in Chicago but things were too 00:05:21.740 --> 00:05:26.236 slow. So I moved home to Winnetka and worked as a private duty nurse in 00:05:26.269 --> 00:05:32.616 Highland park and Lake Forest, which was a pretty wealthy place and I 00:05:32.649 --> 00:05:36.137 didn't very much appreciate some of the patients that I was sent to care 00:05:36.170 --> 00:05:40.647 for because it seemed to me that they were just looking for a registered 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:45.906 nurse to sit with her cap on and her sharp uniform and there wasn't a lot 00:05:45.939 --> 00:05:51.087 to do. So I got into trouble on some scores and I signed off some cases, 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:54.887 but I earned enough money to save tuition to go to the University of 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:59.827 Minnesota. So when I got to Minnesota I had a part time job at the 00:05:59.860 --> 00:06:05.546 University of Minnesota hospitals as a charge nurse in obstetrics in the 00:06:05.579 --> 00:06:12.036 evening. And then I registered for a full time course. It would take me 00:06:12.069 --> 00:06:16.556 three years to get a bachelor's degree in order to work in the field of 00:06:16.589 --> 00:06:19.406 public health 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:22.517 and I kind of petered out after the first year, it was a little difficult 00:06:22.550 --> 00:06:28.546 , you know. So I went to ST. Paul and worked for 20 hour a week part time 00:06:28.579 --> 00:06:34.806 job. The first one was 36 hours, that was part time and 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:38.517 Then I had to have three months for field work where I couldn't work at 00:06:38.550 --> 00:06:46.550 all. And I got a $400 stipend from Minnesota state, the state of Minnesota 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:50.906 to complete the course 00:06:50.939 --> 00:06:55.467 actually complete the course. Oh yes I completed the course nearly killed 00:06:55.500 --> 00:06:59.007 myself doing it. But I did it. 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:04.676 And then what well when I was doing private duty I was taking care I was 00:07:04.709 --> 00:07:08.087 home for a quarter because I couldn't get the courses I needed doing 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:12.806 private duty. I was taking care of a colonel gorilla who was one of the 00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:20.387 original FDA people on the aeronautics board or whatever. I think he was 00:07:20.420 --> 00:07:24.387 in the midst of a nervous breakdown. But he informed me he he was busy 00:07:24.420 --> 00:07:28.337 interviewing me and want to know what I was going to do with my life. And 00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:34.767 I said, well, I like the out of doors. And I heard about this labrador 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:39.687 coast, the Grenfell Association, the International Grenfell Association, 00:07:39.720 --> 00:07:47.127 Dr Grenfell was a minister doctor who uh started uh service for the people 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:52.207 on the labrador who had no medical service. And 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:56.767 so somebody came from Lake Forest to interview me. One of the ladies who 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:00.437 was on one of their committees and I was accepted and I went to the 00:08:00.470 --> 00:08:04.986 labrador and rode the dog sleds. And well, first I was assigned in 00:08:05.019 --> 00:08:08.486 Newfoundland and I that that bothered me because they promised me I could 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:14.496 have a public health nursing job. And that year, the year I graduated from 00:08:14.529 --> 00:08:19.577 Minnesota, I knew more than I've ever known in my life. You know, I had 00:08:19.610 --> 00:08:27.610 that degree. So that was an awakening. And so one day dr Curtis who worked 00:08:28.459 --> 00:08:34.287 up, there was in charge, looked at the was looking at the cows and and I 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:39.726 told him that I was not very happy with that. And where could I get out 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.817 and see the people? And he said well we send you over to the labrador. Of 00:08:43.850 --> 00:08:47.967 course we have a doctor going on furlough and we need a replacement. And I 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:51.976 said now wait a minute, I'm not a doctor. He said oh I know that. But you 00:08:52.009 --> 00:08:58.506 will do a lot better than some of these young impulsive doctors. 00:08:58.539 --> 00:09:06.006 Why shipped out over to the labrador coast? And uh with the last boat that 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:12.396 put it was put it, no it was next to the last boat and I was a dentist and 00:09:12.429 --> 00:09:19.746 I was the midwife and I was I had a set of broken bone once. And ah I 00:09:19.779 --> 00:09:22.157 don't think you want to hear any more about that because it's pretty 00:09:22.190 --> 00:09:27.577 extensive. The first patient I saw said came in and had a little 00:09:27.610 --> 00:09:32.746 dispensary with the pharmacy and the whole business and and all. He looked 00:09:32.779 --> 00:09:36.557 at me and then he'd get very bright red and he'd say I find myself I find 00:09:36.590 --> 00:09:40.846 myself and I don't know what's going on here. Well that meant his knee 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:44.687 hurt. And so I wanted to roll up his pants to look at his knee, no, no, no 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:51.657 , no, no I couldn't do that. So I had quite a time getting used to this 00:09:51.690 --> 00:09:55.067 and another young fishermen came in and he said his jaw hurt, I had to 00:09:55.100 --> 00:10:01.236 pull his tooth and I thought oh no well the dentist in ST Anthony had 00:10:01.269 --> 00:10:08.106 drawn in Newfoundland before I went over had drawn a chart for me of teeth 00:10:08.139 --> 00:10:13.547 and what kind of forceps you use on which teeth and where you put the 00:10:13.580 --> 00:10:17.707 anesthesia. And so I would always say, you know, although I'll have to 00:10:17.740 --> 00:10:21.256 I'll be back soon and I'll go look at my material and then I have to come 00:10:21.289 --> 00:10:27.537 back. And I I didn't put the novocaine in the frame and in the here where 00:10:27.570 --> 00:10:30.346 it should go because I was afraid I wouldn't hit it straight, you know. 00:10:30.379 --> 00:10:35.986 But I gave him some, well this was an upper left molar. I remember very 00:10:36.019 --> 00:10:39.606 well. And uh 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:44.006 I put the forceps on, I couldn't move it and I said I, you know and he 00:10:44.039 --> 00:10:50.096 said I got to get it out. MS got to get it out hurts worse in and out. So 00:10:50.129 --> 00:10:54.126 every time I would pause he would come up with this thing. So I just had 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:58.516 to pursue it. But I got the right forceps. I didn't break any roots. And I 00:10:58.549 --> 00:11:03.366 got the tooth out. But I didn't pull any more teeth. But they didn't ask 00:11:03.399 --> 00:11:05.907 me to 00:11:05.940 --> 00:11:08.606 like quite an adventure. 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:12.506 Came pretty close to being that nurse. Of course 00:11:12.539 --> 00:11:19.026 That's a long way from Arizona. I delivered 12 babies up there in their 00:11:19.059 --> 00:11:24.276 homes and in the hospital and the Lord was with me. They were all okay. 00:11:24.309 --> 00:11:28.467 Excuse me. I had to say that that's pretty important. That's pretty 00:11:28.500 --> 00:11:31.807 exciting part of your life there 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:36.707 from Newfoundland two. 00:11:36.740 --> 00:11:42.577 Do you really want to hear all the places that I went from? Newfoundland? 00:11:42.610 --> 00:11:49.907 I went home and I decided that I need some supervised experience because I 00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:55.106 was way out there. You know, I wanted to do everything my way. And so I 00:11:55.139 --> 00:12:02.006 went to, I was interviewed by the director of the community service 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:08.376 society of two social agencies in new york city where they had a family 00:12:08.409 --> 00:12:12.486 health teaching program and it was supposed to be a model that was 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:17.067 supposed to be excellent experience. So she interviewed me at the train 00:12:17.100 --> 00:12:21.856 depot in Chicago I think. And she was coming through someplace. The 00:12:21.889 --> 00:12:25.106 director of the program 00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:31.067 and I took that job and I went to new york and I didn't know anybody and I 00:12:31.100 --> 00:12:35.297 didn't know about the subways and I didn't know about new york city. And 00:12:35.330 --> 00:12:39.807 here I was in a job where I was doing home visits. A lot of them were 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:45.327 along the whole 3rd Avenue L where the Puerto Rican people had come in and 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:49.207 a lot of Jewish people were peddling 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:52.876 quite an interesting experience because I could sort of plan my own 00:12:52.909 --> 00:12:59.606 caseload my own time. And the supervisor there uh 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:04.457 encouraged me and not only encouraged me, but we're alright encouraged me 00:13:04.490 --> 00:13:10.526 to go to Haiti. Uh she had accepted a position or said she would if she 00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:16.067 could choose the person who would go with her two. I think the assignment 00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:22.217 was to establish public health nursing uh in the cities in in the rural 00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:25.486 country. Now, how are you going to establish public health nursing in 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.567 Haiti. Well that's another question. I have had three years of french in 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:34.337 high school and that was, she was born in France and spoke french very 00:13:34.370 --> 00:13:41.927 well. And so I went to Haiti and uh I was teaching students there in the 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:46.226 hospital for a year and then I went on to Puerto prance to the slums of 00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:52.447 Puerto France and started a public health oh field experience. And I was 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:58.766 there for five years and that was time to see some results. It was quite a 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:04.797 fascinating experience if one learned to look two ft above the ground 00:14:04.830 --> 00:14:09.407 because it was without 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:16.057 sewer dredge and whatnot. It was a little difficult to get used to. And 00:14:16.090 --> 00:14:20.927 they had my trains there, administrator of the hospital took me out to 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.917 look the place over and there was some light trains there. I said what are 00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:31.226 these? And so he asked the people, they were all nailed shut and they said 00:14:31.259 --> 00:14:34.136 all those are like trains or why are they nailed shut because they're all 00:14:34.169 --> 00:14:40.207 filled up. And uh I said, well why is that? And he said because the 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:45.356 americans put them in there and they won't clean them out and the Haitians 00:14:45.389 --> 00:14:53.307 will clean them out because the americans put them in there. Anyway, 00:14:53.340 --> 00:14:58.817 We had this uh supervisor and I had ushered six Haitian doctors around New 00:14:58.850 --> 00:15:03.866 York City before we went to Haiti. So I knew some of those people. So I 00:15:03.899 --> 00:15:06.427 talked to some of them and they said, well for me, they'd get them cleaned 00:15:06.460 --> 00:15:09.606 out. 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:14.096 Well, that was just a little sample of some of the obstacles we had and 00:15:14.129 --> 00:15:19.917 trying to establish a program, but it was quite an experience. And so then 00:15:19.950 --> 00:15:23.976 when did you finally come to Arizona? Well from Haiti, I went to Cornell 00:15:24.009 --> 00:15:31.197 and earned a Master's in child development, adult education. And from 00:15:31.230 --> 00:15:33.606 there, 00:15:33.639 --> 00:15:36.907 I uh 00:15:36.940 --> 00:15:40.967 oh, I was doing a thesis on child guidance and public health nursing. And 00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:46.496 I, my advisor, the person who had been my advisor, Margaret Einstein at 00:15:46.529 --> 00:15:51.506 the University of Minnesota had moved to Washington. So I saw her there 00:15:51.539 --> 00:15:56.467 and she said in the course of my looking for material for my thesis. And 00:15:56.500 --> 00:16:01.287 so she said, are you looking for a job? I said, no, I'm tired when I get 00:16:01.320 --> 00:16:05.146 through with this, I you know, I'm not going to work for a while. She said 00:16:05.179 --> 00:16:09.437 , oh that's perfectly all right, but we do have a job for you. And I said 00:16:09.470 --> 00:16:14.726 , oh yes, what's that? What turns out to be? The National Institute of 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:19.136 Mental Health was starting a mental to mental health centers and the 2nd 1 00:16:19.169 --> 00:16:26.707 was to be in Phoenix. And that's how I came to phoenix. I was sort of 00:16:26.740 --> 00:16:30.396 convinced that I was a mental health nurse because their mental health 00:16:30.429 --> 00:16:34.217 nurses had not yet gone to school, they were just starting the psychiatric 00:16:34.250 --> 00:16:37.917 mental health master's programs. But I have had mental health that 00:16:37.950 --> 00:16:42.787 Minnesota, she told me and I said no, I had and she said yes, I had, she 00:16:42.820 --> 00:16:48.386 knew she was there, but I apparently was so tired and beat up. I couldn't 00:16:48.419 --> 00:16:54.886 remember what I had when I didn't have. So I came to Phoenix in 1948 for 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:59.307 the mental health center. And where was that? That was at phoenix college. 00:16:59.340 --> 00:17:04.187 The offices were at phoenix college and I was the only woman on the staff. 00:17:04.220 --> 00:17:07.717 And there were two psychiatrists, a child psychiatrist and an adult 00:17:07.750 --> 00:17:11.617 psychiatrist, a social couple of social workers and psychologists and 00:17:11.650 --> 00:17:14.907 anthropologists and epidemiologist. 00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:22.187 And it was a five year education, four years for 48 - 52. How many years 00:17:22.220 --> 00:17:25.306 is that? That's four years. 00:17:25.339 --> 00:17:30.046 And so then there was much talk about, I should go get a PhD public health 00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:34.207 service, you know this and that. I said, no, no, no, I don't want a PhD, 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:39.137 I'm not going to be in academia and not me, I'm a public health nurse. And 00:17:39.170 --> 00:17:43.207 so uh 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:49.766 they can, they encouraged me to go to Hopkins to be interviewed and uh I 00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:53.246 said I didn't want that job. Well you have to at least go, the director 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:57.117 told me. I said, well I'm just telling you and I went, I was offered the 00:17:57.150 --> 00:18:01.347 job and I refused the job. And because then of course I had to work on my 00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:07.336 PhD to retain the position. I didn't, I liked Arizona. So I went, I 00:18:07.369 --> 00:18:11.756 applied for five positions in California at the staff, public health 00:18:11.789 --> 00:18:15.496 nursing level. That's what I decided I wanted to do. I got all five 00:18:15.529 --> 00:18:20.947 positions and so I accepted the one in Alameda County and lived in 00:18:20.980 --> 00:18:26.347 Berkeley and drove to Hayward. I guess it was. That's quite a story. But I 00:18:26.380 --> 00:18:30.006 don't know if you want to hear that 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:33.256 they're so at the end of the year they asked me to be a supervisor and I 00:18:33.289 --> 00:18:38.766 said no thank you, I can't fulfill his position in the way that I should. 00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:44.207 And so I don't think that I can expect other people to do that either. 00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:51.506 So how did you get back to Arizona? My, I had, I had bought a house On 00:18:51.539 --> 00:18:56.796 25th place north of McDowell for $4,000 and my parents moved here from 00:18:56.829 --> 00:19:01.847 Winnetka and my mother wanted this old house and my father, they had 00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:07.576 horses and a very modest house. But my father, I didn't want to start 00:19:07.609 --> 00:19:10.457 another house and he didn't have the money, he didn't want to sell that 00:19:10.490 --> 00:19:18.490 one. And so for $1,000 down And $100 a month, I bought that house. And we 00:19:19.130 --> 00:19:24.076 I also fixed it up, knocked down a few walls and you know made an archway 00:19:24.109 --> 00:19:31.006 and so forth. You really got me started on this thing. 00:19:31.039 --> 00:19:34.536 I thought this is what we're trying to get you to a S. U. But first we've 00:19:34.569 --> 00:19:38.957 got to figure out how you got to Arizona. So well when I came back from 00:19:38.990 --> 00:19:44.947 California when I resigned in California came back to phoenix because my 00:19:44.980 --> 00:19:48.607 parents were here and 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:53.127 I thought I was gonna just maybe go back with public health service and go 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:58.496 to Indonesia because they spoke french there. When I called the called 00:19:58.529 --> 00:20:04.687 Washington they sent me a whole new application with all this red tape and 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:10.097 I thought if they have to do that I don't want that job. And so I was 00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:18.130 sitting there and the director of nursing from a good samaritan called and 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.776 wanted me to have lunch with her and I said oh I hear you're looking for a 00:20:23.809 --> 00:20:28.197 replacement. She said yes. I said well I'm not the replacement. I just I'm 00:20:28.230 --> 00:20:33.026 not I'm a public health nurse, mental health nurse that's not for me. Well 00:20:33.059 --> 00:20:36.056 you can have lunch with me anyway she said so I went over and had lunch 00:20:36.089 --> 00:20:40.506 with her. She introduced me to the administrator 00:20:40.539 --> 00:20:45.806 and uh he I walked down the hall at least I could go see him that would 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.556 make him believe she was looking for someone. And I went there and he 00:20:50.589 --> 00:20:56.097 first question he asked me was uh what is your religion? And I thought 00:20:56.130 --> 00:21:02.687 well I don't want this job. So all and I said, well let's see, I think I 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.006 went to an evangelical church when I was a child, my parents were Lutheran 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:14.647 and then after that in Minnesota I went to a Unitarian church and when I 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:19.796 went to Haiti I went to a catholic church. And at this point he said look 00:21:19.829 --> 00:21:23.467 he said what I want to know is are you protestant or catholic? I felt like 00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:30.016 saying well why didn't you ask me? And he said, well the board here is 00:21:30.049 --> 00:21:35.107 methodist and we can't we just although it's not really the governing 00:21:35.140 --> 00:21:40.496 board, we cannot afford to have a catholic Director of direction. And I 00:21:40.529 --> 00:21:45.907 said well I'm not catholic. So I must be protestant. 00:21:45.940 --> 00:21:49.266 They want to know about the just said I'm not qualified for this position 00:21:49.299 --> 00:21:52.887 at all. And he said, my director says you are therefore you are, you're 00:21:52.920 --> 00:21:57.947 one of three nurses with a master's degree in Arizona. My director is one 00:21:57.980 --> 00:22:05.326 who is josephine steiner barred Wick. And my Bard Wick Bargor and she had 00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:13.359 married the pathologist at Good Sam and and L one, it's got loose loose. 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:16.826 I 00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:23.387 have forgotten her first name. Alan was the director in Tucson and I was 00:22:23.420 --> 00:22:27.476 the third one. And so therefore I was going to take the job because he 00:22:27.509 --> 00:22:30.937 needed somebody with a master's degree because he needed to get his school 00:22:30.970 --> 00:22:34.006 of nursing program accredited. 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:39.586 So he said I'll tell you what he said, we'll keep the present director to 00:22:39.619 --> 00:22:45.597 orient you. And in three months if you don't like us, you can leave if we 00:22:45.630 --> 00:22:49.056 don't like you will ask you to leave, How's that? I said, well that's 00:22:49.089 --> 00:22:51.816 that's pretty neat, you've got air conditioning here and I don't have that 00:22:51.849 --> 00:22:57.107 at home. 00:22:57.140 --> 00:23:01.167 And so he said, well you can't have a desk. I said fine, I don't like 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:07.996 disks. So we went down the hall to the director's office and we chatted a 00:23:08.029 --> 00:23:11.786 bit and after he left, she said, tell me are you coming or not? And I said 00:23:11.819 --> 00:23:17.506 , well I didn't say I would not. So I guess I'm coming, 00:23:17.539 --> 00:23:22.387 that's terrible. But anyway, I stayed there for years and while I was 00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:25.607 there we had 00:23:25.640 --> 00:23:33.236 a lot of activity. I had been, I had gone to school at the University of 00:23:33.269 --> 00:23:37.447 Chicago in the summer after I finished Cornell to take some courses they 00:23:37.480 --> 00:23:42.887 wanted me to take, I took carl Rogers group psychotherapy course, some 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:48.056 personal counseling courses, things like that. So they were they were very 00:23:48.089 --> 00:23:53.877 helpful to me in uh administration as well as my psychiatric experience at 00:23:53.910 --> 00:23:58.707 the mental health center, that's what everybody needs an administration. 00:23:58.740 --> 00:24:04.506 And so everybody was working on trying to get a collegiate program because 00:24:04.539 --> 00:24:08.707 ah nurses in Arizona, 00:24:08.740 --> 00:24:13.086 we're always moving from Arizona to California. This is there stopping 00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:16.417 place because they get experience and then they get a better job. Our 00:24:16.450 --> 00:24:23.506 salaries were low and so we battled for better salaries. Many 00:24:23.539 --> 00:24:29.006 organizations were opting for a collegiate program. Guy Hanner had been 00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:33.847 working on it. He said for 10 years and so I asked him to be okay if I 00:24:33.880 --> 00:24:37.836 worked on it and he said that would be fine. So I had some discussions 00:24:37.869 --> 00:24:43.326 with norman ross in the corridor, the doctor norman ross who was head of 00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:48.506 the mental health commission, mental health governors console or something 00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:55.546 when Mcfarland was in. And so he said to me, if you do what I tell you and 00:24:55.579 --> 00:25:02.516 then you will have uh you will have approval for school of nursing. And I 00:25:02.549 --> 00:25:10.549 said fine, tell me. And so he did and I did and it got approved. Now we 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:16.457 weren't the only ones it was that all these people were working on it. But 00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:20.127 when it was brought up by the U. Of a, it would be voted down. It was 00:25:20.160 --> 00:25:25.407 brought up by a S. U. It was voted down. So he said what you need to do is 00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:30.207 get people together to recommend that one or more schools be established. 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.877 So we did that and sent letters appropriation committee, the governor and 00:25:33.910 --> 00:25:39.576 everybody else. And and it got approved. And the problem was That the U. 00:25:39.609 --> 00:25:45.207 of a recruited a director in January of 19 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:53.240 57 And we did not have one. And so uh I knew a few people in California 00:25:53.950 --> 00:25:58.776 that we brought over and Grady Gammage and tilden and few of us would 00:25:58.809 --> 00:26:04.917 interview them but they didn't want the job. And uh Alice Engelmayer was 00:26:04.950 --> 00:26:10.607 really great but oh she would like to come but her husband wouldn't come. 00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:14.526 And so at that time Dean tilden said, well I would think that if she 00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:19.829 wanted to come that her husband ought to come, I said oh I don't think so. 00:26:19.940 --> 00:26:21.940 And that later showed up when I 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:33.240 accepted the position and uh I got a ring, an engagement ring from Guy 00:26:33.250 --> 00:26:39.316 handler and showed it to Arnold tilden and one morning in the office and 00:26:39.349 --> 00:26:44.506 he disappeared, he didn't say a word, he just looked at me and disappeared 00:26:44.539 --> 00:26:49.347 and I've forgotten, who else was there? It was one of the secretaries and 00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:53.586 I said, what's that all about? They said, oh he went to call Guy Hannah to 00:26:53.619 --> 00:27:00.006 find out if you're going to still be working. So those were in the days 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:03.736 and he probably said that because I said, you know, you should probably do 00:27:03.769 --> 00:27:07.967 what your husband, so 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:13.607 go ahead and said indeed I would be working apparently 00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:17.107 because he told me I couldn't even think of resigning for five years when 00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:21.766 you accept a responsible position like that that I had been pushed into. 00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:26.127 So when was that? And what was the actual position that you took? I took 00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:34.160 the position as director of the School of Nursing at s see this was the 00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:39.536 year before the referendum vote before 00:27:39.569 --> 00:27:47.086 Arizona state became a university and with the promise that Arnold 00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:52.266 Children would, I told them I didn't know anything about administration in 00:27:52.299 --> 00:27:56.947 an academic institution and that's okay, that's okay. Other people around 00:27:56.980 --> 00:28:03.766 here knew that they wanted my experience. And so I said okay fine because 00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:08.286 we were really pushed, you know, here we were without a director after all 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:12.806 our hard work. And so um 00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:18.516 so you've a and a the School of Nursing the same year and also I don't 00:28:18.549 --> 00:28:21.927 know when n au started but it was also approved for them and they have had 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:28.506 a collegiate school. What year was that? 57 when I don't think any you 00:28:28.539 --> 00:28:33.117 started that year. I've forgotten when they started what what was a issue 00:28:33.150 --> 00:28:37.256 like that year when you came and actually worked at A. S. U. On campus. I 00:28:37.289 --> 00:28:40.506 came, 00:28:40.539 --> 00:28:45.536 hey wait Arnold Children was in a situation where the border regions had 00:28:45.569 --> 00:28:50.107 to prove the position so he couldn't really offer me that position until 00:28:50.140 --> 00:28:56.107 it had been approved. So on on a saturday I guess it must have been around 00:28:56.140 --> 00:29:00.127 The weekend before April one or something. The Board of Regents met. They 00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:03.967 approved the position. My mother said that he'd been looking all over for 00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:08.667 me and that it was on sunday and I'd gone to a friend's house to go 00:29:08.700 --> 00:29:13.786 swimming and have dinner or something and this poor man was distraught and 00:29:13.819 --> 00:29:18.637 I just better call him. And so I called him and he said I have the 00:29:18.670 --> 00:29:23.407 contract in the car, are you going to take this position? 00:29:23.440 --> 00:29:25.607 So 00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:30.476 I said well yes I am and he said well then I won't need to bring the 00:29:30.509 --> 00:29:33.847 contract over when you come to the office and sign it in the morning. I 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:38.496 said yes I'll do that. So he was in the administration building, I went to 00:29:38.529 --> 00:29:44.006 the office to sign it and he said well this is the space you should have. 00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:48.377 He had a lot of applications lined up prospective applications because I 00:29:48.410 --> 00:29:51.506 had said they probably didn't have any applications. They needed a person 00:29:51.539 --> 00:29:56.207 with a PhD you know now you can see we have applications but I don't know 00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:01.707 what you're gonna do here. He said all I need from you is a five year plan 00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:09.740 of the amount of space you need. So how many students you can uh you will 00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:17.437 be entering And how many faculty you will need for five years and I don't 00:30:17.470 --> 00:30:24.016 think you can get the information around here. And so I thought well so I 00:30:24.049 --> 00:30:26.967 left his office, he said gave me a catalog. He said you better read this. 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:32.576 So I left his office and I walked up Mill Avenue that was before the mall 00:30:32.609 --> 00:30:36.726 was there. And I can remember walking up the ball with the trees over the 00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:44.759 sidewalk saying to myself, you are the biggest fool that ever existed. 00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:52.056 What was Arnold tilden's? Well that was interesting. He was just appointed 00:30:52.089 --> 00:30:56.016 the Dean of the College of Liberal Arts, but you see the president was the 00:30:56.049 --> 00:31:02.897 Dean, so to speak because we weren't yet S. U. Was not into being yet. 00:31:02.930 --> 00:31:07.687 That was the big fight. So what we called him the Dean, Arnold, who was 00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:14.187 president present damage. It was still it wasn't the university yet. No, 00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:18.687 it wasn't university until the next year. 00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:23.187 You say you went to the administration building. Where was that? Oh I 00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:26.006 think it's the same place, 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:33.407 that's the building that still exists. Um And mary Bunty was the 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:37.826 uh I don't know whether she was called a secretary, but she was a lot. She 00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:45.467 was very very helpful, a forceful person. I learned that when she told me 00:31:45.500 --> 00:31:50.707 that I should remember that we women have to stick together because 00:31:50.740 --> 00:31:55.286 you know, there weren't very many women around in the academic, I think I 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:59.717 was the first dean of the 00:31:59.750 --> 00:32:05.226 first woman Dean, Katherine Nichols told me that she was an associate dean 00:32:05.259 --> 00:32:08.286 and she said to me, you know, you're the first dean. I said no I'm not, 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:12.236 you're a dean. And she said, oh yes, but I'm just an associate dean. Never 00:32:12.269 --> 00:32:18.296 occurred to me before that that would mean anything. And so there I was, 00:32:18.329 --> 00:32:25.957 you know, I didn't ever feel like a dean. We became a college in 1963, 00:32:25.990 --> 00:32:30.316 I think 64, something like that. I was in brazil at the time and they 00:32:30.349 --> 00:32:36.717 wired me to let me know that. I was now a professor and a dean. I was with 00:32:36.750 --> 00:32:39.607 the Peace Corps. 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:43.506 Get around. 00:32:43.539 --> 00:32:47.717 What did you do that first year? Did you have an office or? Yes, they 00:32:47.750 --> 00:32:51.506 found an office for into the basement of 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:58.026 what was then Matthews Library. That's an art center now believe. And it 00:32:58.059 --> 00:33:03.006 was a little square place that you could put two chairs in with the 00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:07.986 bookcase about this wide that went off and it was a real cozy place. 00:33:08.019 --> 00:33:12.026 Didn't have any windows and stuff but that's okay. It was a desk and it 00:33:12.059 --> 00:33:16.107 was an office and 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:23.887 then we removed to the basement of the adjoining building. That's an annex 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:31.920 , it's just west of that. We were in the basement. 00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:36.826 I think it was a different building. I had a lot of pipes in the ceiling 00:33:36.859 --> 00:33:41.677 and that sort of thing. We have pictures of that Dorothy McLeod teaching 00:33:41.710 --> 00:33:48.407 her science classes there. How big was the school when you first started? 00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:52.207 Well we had to admit students the first year in order to justify our 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:57.086 existence. And so according to the league regulations you're supposed to 00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.016 be appointed a year before you admit students but they're not very 00:34:00.049 --> 00:34:05.726 practical. So I was appointed April one but we had to admit students In 00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:10.686 September so we had 48 students and we established a beginning freshman 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:16.606 class. Introduction to nursing 101 With 48 students in the second we 00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:22.436 offered it both semesters and along with 10.2 And we had eight students a 00:34:22.469 --> 00:34:27.057 second time. So there are about 53 students who began. You wanna know how 00:34:27.090 --> 00:34:31.907 many graduates? Six 00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:39.940 Out of the 50, 48 was over 50 because it was a tough course. 00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:45.416 Well there's the admission standards were very very, I thought limited in 00:34:45.449 --> 00:34:52.557 those days. Students had difficulty communicating. They uh I hadn't 00:34:52.590 --> 00:34:59.166 learned to study. They, I really didn't had difficulty understanding it 00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:02.896 probably because of my own education. Had had, I've been really lucky to 00:35:02.929 --> 00:35:08.256 go to a good high school but they couldn't write, they couldn't, well they 00:35:08.289 --> 00:35:13.407 didn't know what nursing was. And so we had a course that we tried to 00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:18.706 orient them to health what health was. And 00:35:18.739 --> 00:35:22.686 I remember we even had them have a physical and we went over the physical 00:35:22.719 --> 00:35:25.566 exam with them and I thought that was very good. Everybody ought to do 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:30.137 that. So they understand you know how their own health is. And then we had 00:35:30.170 --> 00:35:35.146 them visit different health agencies in the community like the Arizona 00:35:35.179 --> 00:35:42.907 State Hospital. Good sam I think secretary, one of the indian hospitals. 00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:47.756 Then they would make blogs and observe and come back to their group and 00:35:47.789 --> 00:35:52.137 discuss what they had seen so that all the students in the group profit 00:35:52.170 --> 00:35:57.006 from their experience as well as get the experience of writing and 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:02.747 discussing which I could have used myself. But that's maybe why we had it. 00:36:02.780 --> 00:36:09.336 We recruited uh Dorothy McLeod in september She was our second fight, I 00:36:09.369 --> 00:36:14.986 was the first and she was the 2nd 1 and then we started the course and 00:36:15.019 --> 00:36:21.697 then in january L. M. A. Brand steadier came and she had been in visiting 00:36:21.730 --> 00:36:27.916 nurse service here in phoenix and had a bachelor's and had gone to 00:36:27.949 --> 00:36:32.977 Minnesota to take the new course in psychiatric mental health nursing at 00:36:33.010 --> 00:36:40.447 the masters level. And so we had recruited her in january and that was 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:45.456 quite a tall tale too. But I don't think we have much time left do we? We 00:36:45.489 --> 00:36:48.796 got some, 00:36:48.829 --> 00:36:54.497 maybe Ellie could tell you about that. 00:36:54.530 --> 00:36:58.736 So it sounds like you know you had your work cut out for you, starting the 00:36:58.769 --> 00:37:03.997 whole school from scratch. Exactly. And the thing that was so nice was the 00:37:04.030 --> 00:37:08.796 thing that really saved us of course was the the community like people 00:37:08.829 --> 00:37:14.296 like Ellie and she was uh I would say about the most important faculty 00:37:14.329 --> 00:37:21.497 member we had we did recruit Janet walker from U. C. L. A. Who was very 00:37:21.530 --> 00:37:29.530 good administrator and very helpful to me. She was unstinting 00:37:30.530 --> 00:37:34.997 time and knowledge. Tell me a little bit more about how the school grew 00:37:35.030 --> 00:37:39.807 like you said you started with six and then we we started registered 00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:46.367 nurses and uh they didn't take the introductory course. We had, I had a 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:52.706 course that was sort of an orientation course for registered nurses and 00:37:52.739 --> 00:37:57.296 they were given were given or granted some credit for there licenser in 00:37:57.329 --> 00:38:02.977 the beginning and then credit was given by examination later on, there was 00:38:03.010 --> 00:38:09.557 a National League for Nursing test that they took and so they they got 00:38:09.590 --> 00:38:17.066 about, they had to spend about three years in school and before they got a 00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:23.287 bachelor's degree which was a real bone of contention and it was very 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:28.276 difficult, it was a very difficult change for them, so a lot of them would 00:38:28.309 --> 00:38:32.637 end up in my office of course, that's where my time went, trying to help 00:38:32.670 --> 00:38:40.670 people adjust to the change. And so I would say, well of course I could 00:38:41.590 --> 00:38:45.796 relate to them because I had been a hospital graduate and I had done 20 00:38:45.829 --> 00:38:52.816 our duty and I had done staff earth and maybe Arnold Children was right, 00:38:52.849 --> 00:38:58.717 that really kind of helped the situation, they didn't get mad at me, but 00:38:58.750 --> 00:39:03.347 they would bang on that desk, you know, I would say yes, but you're 00:39:03.380 --> 00:39:07.387 getting a bright new degree now, you know? 00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:12.077 So it was a big change for for for women to come and get nursing degrees 00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:17.117 at a college as opposed to going to just a hospital. Oh yeah, that was 00:39:17.150 --> 00:39:24.256 still is, it was a big thing because in the hospital uh we had to do a lot 00:39:24.289 --> 00:39:29.936 of work and that kept the hospital costs low as you know, and uh the 00:39:29.969 --> 00:39:36.767 diploma students got a lot of experience, but that's why we wanted to move 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:41.287 nursing to a collegiate setting so that the students would learn skills 00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:47.316 enough to know understand them but they wouldn't be apprenticing, they 00:39:47.349 --> 00:39:51.986 wouldn't be practicing. And 00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:55.287 so the student had to pay for all their own expenses. So when the 00:39:55.320 --> 00:39:59.497 registered nurses came back to school they had to pay tuition to for the 00:39:59.530 --> 00:40:04.327 courses and it was a change of setting for them and they thought that they 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:10.206 ought to take a course or two and they knew more than those youngsters and 00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:14.876 they did in many ways and that mm hmm. That that we should give them a 00:40:14.909 --> 00:40:22.867 degree. But Alfred thomas was a big help with that. We were ahead of. I 00:40:22.900 --> 00:40:27.936 learned many schools because he cooperated so well with the transcripts 00:40:27.969 --> 00:40:34.126 and the evaluation and and maintaining our generic baccalaureate for your 00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:38.376 program. Was it primarily women that were kept coming to the school 00:40:38.409 --> 00:40:44.396 primarily. But we had some men that were had been physician's assistants 00:40:44.429 --> 00:40:52.429 in the service. And I remember that I taught clinical community nursing in 00:40:52.639 --> 00:41:00.327 Avondale after I resigned from the Dean In 1970s. So I think I was I was 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:04.126 teaching public health nurses for public health nursing for about six 00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:08.017 years. I think I worked on the administration course for a while. But 00:41:08.050 --> 00:41:13.537 there were men there and I just get them out in Avondale that was a good 00:41:13.570 --> 00:41:21.436 place for them. They were very good and very very knowledgeable. It was a 00:41:21.469 --> 00:41:27.986 pleasure to have them. So how long were you ready? Well I was at a. s. U. 00:41:28.019 --> 00:41:33.276 from 1957 to 19. 00:41:33.309 --> 00:41:37.006 Well I was still at A. S. U. I was on a leave to go to the Peace Corps 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:42.686 from 1964 to 66. And I also the year before that was on a three month 00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:50.396 leave to do a survey Turkey Pakistan and Iran to identify nursing leaders 00:41:50.429 --> 00:41:56.977 for Central Central which was the central nurses 00:41:57.010 --> 00:42:02.686 think about treaty organization. I haven't got that exactly straight. And 00:42:02.719 --> 00:42:05.747 then I went back the second year they invited me to come back for the 00:42:05.780 --> 00:42:09.537 conference after we had identified the nurses one year. Then we were to go 00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:13.566 back. They didn't invite the other person back but they invited me to come 00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:20.166 back for the conference and that and I went around the world 00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:28.199 dr brian who was the vice president to Durham. Um 00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:34.057 I was tired and I wasn't ready to go back. And he said that that was good 00:42:34.090 --> 00:42:39.166 for the university for me to do that. And I wanted a overseas program 00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:43.227 someplace for the students. You know that junior year program or senior 00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:47.767 year program. Because I because I thought because of my own experience no 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.537 doubt that was very broadening to B. C. Another culture and work in 00:42:52.570 --> 00:42:55.717 another culture. So he said you can visit the Philippines, you can go 00:42:55.750 --> 00:42:59.956 around the world on the way back. So I went around the world on the way 00:42:59.989 --> 00:43:06.006 back and I was gone a month. And I was really beat when I got back and 00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:11.307 when I got back was when they greeted me at the airplane on Janet walker 00:43:11.340 --> 00:43:16.626 with this application for the Peace Corps that I was to sign. And that's 00:43:16.659 --> 00:43:22.367 how I got in going with the Peace Corps again, we couldn't find anybody 00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:26.847 that they thought qualified. So the story was that if you don't go, we 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:32.267 don't get the grant. And so I went, 00:43:32.300 --> 00:43:37.396 So then you came back. Yeah, that's that's when the building. I had worked 00:43:37.429 --> 00:43:41.887 on plans for the building and gotten some blueprints from Wayne State 00:43:41.920 --> 00:43:47.367 University for Gilbert Katie. And 00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:52.677 there I met uh, a playmate that I had known in Winnetka who was secretary 00:43:52.710 --> 00:44:00.710 to the border regions. And so he was very helpful and 00:44:01.789 --> 00:44:05.296 I came back and when the building was dedicated, as soon as I get got back 00:44:05.329 --> 00:44:10.307 , Rosemary johnson was the acting dean and she had everything really well 00:44:10.340 --> 00:44:15.727 organized and was really put out with me because there was no carpeting in 00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:20.356 the Dean's office when and there was no bathroom and I said, we certainly 00:44:20.389 --> 00:44:23.566 don't need a bathroom and we can get along without the carpeting. I had 00:44:23.599 --> 00:44:27.876 been working in brazil. And if I explain the conditions to you, you would 00:44:27.909 --> 00:44:32.506 understand and poor Rosemary. She didn't like that of course because she 00:44:32.539 --> 00:44:37.447 had been plugging to have an office. That was as good as the business 00:44:37.480 --> 00:44:42.296 college had the Dean's office should be as good. And I didn't understand 00:44:42.329 --> 00:44:48.856 that at the time. You know, it was kind of out space. 00:44:48.889 --> 00:44:53.066 So, so did you come back then and become the Dean again? You know when I 00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:57.977 came back I was a dean, They wired me that I was the Dean when I was in uh 00:44:58.010 --> 00:45:04.657 motto Grosso brazil. I was there with Jim Cressman and 00:45:04.690 --> 00:45:08.816 that I was now a professor and a dean. So they expected me back. I don't 00:45:08.849 --> 00:45:12.876 know if everybody did, but I expected to come back. It was just, it was a 00:45:12.909 --> 00:45:20.256 two year assignment with a grip. That was well, it was quite an education 00:45:20.289 --> 00:45:25.867 there. I met art barney quick and that's how I have to do Merry. five 00:45:25.900 --> 00:45:31.456 years later he came to Phoenix and we got married 00:45:31.489 --> 00:45:37.626 17 years later, he died. So there I was again, 00:45:37.659 --> 00:45:40.427 it must have been quite a change to come back and have a whole building 00:45:40.460 --> 00:45:47.356 for nursing. Yes, it was very odd. We've been in the annex of the old, 00:45:47.389 --> 00:45:52.646 I've forgotten the name of the people who Joyce home on forest and Orange 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:59.247 . I guess it was when I left. And so everybody was really spiffed up and 00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:06.447 we had quite a dedication ceremony and lulu Hassan plug came and Dean 00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:09.247 Children was there. 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:11.747 It must have been 00:46:11.780 --> 00:46:17.296 drill was there. Gilbert Katie and Gilbert Katie was a great help while I 00:46:17.329 --> 00:46:21.146 was gone. He was going to supervise things. See that everything went well 00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:26.126 of course, along with Ryan, you know. Well anyway, so how long were you 00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:34.159 here after when you came back? Well I resigned in 1971 as dean. And then I 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:39.486 continued teaching clinical nursing while I was gone for a month or two. 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:46.157 And and uh, they needed somebody for the administration program. My 00:46:46.190 --> 00:46:49.767 husband had said he didn't want me to work. So I said fine, I won't leave. 00:46:49.800 --> 00:46:57.447 And so faculty got ahold of him at a cocktail party and oh that isn't all 00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:02.117 he wanted to be a radio operator on the ship hope. And so one of them 00:47:02.150 --> 00:47:06.776 Dorothy corona told him, oh she could fix that up. And the next day, next 00:47:06.809 --> 00:47:10.447 week I think it took a one week before I got a call offering me a job with 00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:18.480 Ship Hope for the summer. And so uh I said to art, you know, you want the 00:47:19.179 --> 00:47:25.747 job. I don't, he said, oh but I have to go, we just have to go. So we went 00:47:25.780 --> 00:47:33.780 to brazil to receive and I helped them do a survey for a master's program 00:47:34.050 --> 00:47:39.666 for a course in they want to develop a master's program, wrote a report in 00:47:39.699 --> 00:47:45.637 Portuguese delivered it in Portuguese. It was tough and in the three 00:47:45.670 --> 00:47:50.066 months period I went, came back that was before I started Avondale, this 00:47:50.099 --> 00:47:55.416 was after I resigned as Dean and then before I started in Avondale, I'm 00:47:55.449 --> 00:48:00.646 lost. Now I'm sorry I deviated. So that was in the 70s then. Yes that was 00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:07.146 1970 70 One when I resigned. So then I was worked in avondale until 1980. 00:48:07.179 --> 00:48:12.436 I resigned in 1980. And then I wrote the history of the College of Nursing 00:48:12.469 --> 00:48:14.936 for three years 00:48:14.969 --> 00:48:20.276 again. That was because my husband said that I had do this volunteer work. 00:48:20.309 --> 00:48:23.267 You know I think he wanted to keep me out of his hair. He thought he's 00:48:23.300 --> 00:48:29.086 gonna have trouble with me if he didn't keep me busy. Ha ha ha. That's 00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:36.887 right yeah. Tell me um what is the most memorable event of your time at A 00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:40.336 . S. U. 00:48:40.369 --> 00:48:47.276 Oh well I think I explained to you the most memorable but I can think of a 00:48:47.309 --> 00:48:51.856 funny one, the most memorable one was walking down Mill Avenue after I 00:48:51.889 --> 00:48:58.986 signed that contract. I can still feel how stupid I feel. But a memorable 00:48:59.019 --> 00:49:03.236 one was when I came back from brazil for the graduate, I came back in time 00:49:03.269 --> 00:49:08.287 for graduation somehow or other. And uh you know you put all your robes in 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:11.597 the room and all this stuff and I went in the room and there was Gilbert, 00:49:11.630 --> 00:49:17.387 Katie and Jim Cressman talking and one of them said to the other, you tell 00:49:17.420 --> 00:49:22.506 her and the other one said no you tell her and I said what's up? And so uh 00:49:22.539 --> 00:49:26.287 Gilbert crazy. Katie started telling me how well I looked and so forth. 00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:30.756 And jim said no you don't tell her that. He said you just tell her 00:49:30.789 --> 00:49:37.416 straight how it is. Don't beat around the bush. And so he said we have 00:49:37.449 --> 00:49:39.736 flowers 00:49:39.769 --> 00:49:45.977 ali from Hawaii for President Durham and we need you to put it around his 00:49:46.010 --> 00:49:51.336 neck. And I said no thank you 00:49:51.369 --> 00:49:55.916 get somebody else to do it. Well again there's nobody else to do it. So 00:49:55.949 --> 00:50:02.497 there I had put the lay on President kiss him on both cheeks at the 00:50:02.530 --> 00:50:04.816 graduation. 00:50:04.849 --> 00:50:10.427 That's very memorable. I've never told that one before. And afterwards 00:50:10.460 --> 00:50:14.967 Dean Overman said well he just didn't think it was fair. I said what isn't 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:20.407 fair? And he said well after all you're a woman and you have the advantage 00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:25.126 you get to put the lay on the President 00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:30.106 and then they would complain and say that something about the robes hadn't 00:50:30.139 --> 00:50:34.936 gotten pressed. And I said well so you go home and expect your wife to 00:50:34.969 --> 00:50:41.026 press your robe and I have to go home and press my own. 00:50:41.059 --> 00:50:45.486 Well I probably shouldn't say all this describe a little bit about how a. 00:50:45.519 --> 00:50:49.936 S. U. Changed from the first time you came here in the fifties until In 00:50:49.969 --> 00:50:56.557 the 80s when you were here. Right. Well it grew and grew and grew and I 00:50:56.590 --> 00:51:04.206 just couldn't it was so difficult to recruit faculties to to match the 00:51:04.239 --> 00:51:09.126 students. The we had 00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:14.847 I think I've forgotten how many students in the 3rd and 4th classes. And 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:22.880 we had when I wrote the college of nursing history we had 2500 graduates. 00:51:23.260 --> 00:51:31.260 And when I got the last bulletin from the dean there were 5600 graduates. 00:51:31.760 --> 00:51:36.736 And they had located them. The alumni had located them and there were 00:51:36.769 --> 00:51:41.927 every state of the union had some of our graduates plus countries in 00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:49.086 europe France And I forgot there about six listed. But I was amazed. And 00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:53.947 the thing that amazed me more is the way I hear from students and meet 00:51:53.980 --> 00:51:59.126 students from the school. Doesn't seem it just seems that wherever I go I 00:51:59.159 --> 00:52:03.916 went to a nutrition lecture no long ago I was involved in something else. 00:52:03.949 --> 00:52:08.137 And I sat at the table I had a friend of mine with me who was not a nurse 00:52:08.170 --> 00:52:14.316 and sat at the table was really sharp looking young lady. We started to 00:52:14.349 --> 00:52:19.447 talk about what a nice evening it was or something and oh I said to her ma 00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:23.907 you look sharp and she said well I've been working hard all day. I said 00:52:23.940 --> 00:52:28.557 well I don't believe it. And and it turned out she was in a S. U. Graduate 00:52:28.590 --> 00:52:32.206 and she looked at me and said are you a nurse and I said well yes and she 00:52:32.239 --> 00:52:36.776 said I've seen you someplace before that was before I learned to ask you 00:52:36.809 --> 00:52:40.947 graduate. I said when did you graduate? I said I don't think so I don't 00:52:40.980 --> 00:52:47.416 think you've seen me. And she said, oh yes. And she had seen my portraits 00:52:47.449 --> 00:52:51.697 and I thought well how could you ever remember that? I don't look like 00:52:51.730 --> 00:52:55.117 that anymore. 00:52:55.150 --> 00:53:00.756 I know that's kind of cute. And my nephew was in my marriage was in Israel 00:53:00.789 --> 00:53:05.907 and he found in one of our graduates there that knew me. What kind of 00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:09.686 advice do you two young people who are just starting out and choosing a 00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:13.717 college and choosing a career? What kind of advice? 00:53:13.750 --> 00:53:18.307 Well usually I try to find out what they were interested in because giving 00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:26.340 advice is a little difficult. And I think what I tried to steer them to 00:53:27.019 --> 00:53:34.316 was to be a beginning nurse. You know, before they thought of being you 00:53:34.349 --> 00:53:39.186 can't manage something you don't know and they really weren't practiced. 00:53:39.219 --> 00:53:42.586 You know, they had a bachelor's degree with all those other people had 00:53:42.619 --> 00:53:46.936 experience and so they needed to find beginning positions and feel 00:53:46.969 --> 00:53:53.367 comfortable in them and decide then what area of nursing was best for them. 00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:56.727 And we would discuss what area would be best for them to look for a staff 00:53:56.760 --> 00:54:00.767 position. Why would people want to be a nurse right now they're having 00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:07.307 trouble finding enough nurses beats me. I wonder sometimes 00:54:07.340 --> 00:54:12.626 I think that the students we had would always say that they were 00:54:12.659 --> 00:54:16.497 interested in people and they wanted to take care of people and there was 00:54:16.530 --> 00:54:20.276 somebody in their family that there was an illness and that they had been 00:54:20.309 --> 00:54:24.077 the one that had taken care of. I was the one who took care of my mother 00:54:24.110 --> 00:54:29.126 and my family when she was ill. Once there was once she was ill and 00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:32.006 they're they're just outgoing 00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:36.557 caring people I think. I don't know what else to say. They want to help 00:54:36.590 --> 00:54:39.856 the world. That's the trouble. Some of them want to help the world too 00:54:39.889 --> 00:54:46.497 much. It's a difficult. Oh yes it's very difficult job but then it has a 00:54:46.530 --> 00:54:52.247 lot of satisfaction if you get into a position that you like. It's and I 00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:58.236 say I don't like administration, I don't but I sure like the people and 00:54:58.269 --> 00:55:03.606 the students, the salaries for nurses. How have those changed since you 00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:10.236 started? Well when I took that job. Good sam the administrator informed me 00:55:10.269 --> 00:55:12.736 they couldn't pay me what I've been getting the public health service but 00:55:12.769 --> 00:55:16.836 I had to accept the job anyway because they needed me. You see his father 00:55:16.869 --> 00:55:20.706 had been a minister, so he had learned 00:55:20.739 --> 00:55:23.407 the lingual. 00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:30.256 The salaries were very poor. And uh I remember that but my salary was 00:55:30.289 --> 00:55:34.807 pretty good. I 00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:40.787 I was offered $9,000 a year and that was about double what I was making a 00:55:40.820 --> 00:55:46.477 good sam. The beginning instructor's salary I was looking at the first 00:55:46.510 --> 00:55:50.677 year I think was around 4,000-4,500. 00:55:50.710 --> 00:55:58.710 And we expected uh an instructor who was licensed in nursing who had who 00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:04.336 had a nursing specialty in the master's degree, who had a car You could 00:56:04.369 --> 00:56:09.796 drive, it could find her way around to be independent for $4,000. 00:56:09.829 --> 00:56:15.546 And that was really pretty tough. I could write a book on the experiences 00:56:15.579 --> 00:56:21.827 I had, trying to recruit faculty. What did nurses make when they graduated 00:56:21.860 --> 00:56:28.977 ? Well, when I was a good sam, the salaries were the hospital nurses were 00:56:29.010 --> 00:56:35.356 , I don't think I'm wrong about this. They were under $100 a month. When I 00:56:35.389 --> 00:56:41.666 graduated from Michael Reese, there were about $60 a month. uh that of 00:56:41.699 --> 00:56:49.236 course was in 1936. So that was some time ago. But at times were tough. 00:56:49.269 --> 00:56:51.597 And 00:56:51.630 --> 00:56:54.497 so nurses, 00:56:54.530 --> 00:56:58.836 I felt that were diploma graduates that these youngsters were going to 00:56:58.869 --> 00:57:03.537 pass them up and get all the promotions because they had a degree. And of 00:57:03.570 --> 00:57:09.916 course that could be true sometimes, but if there was a good person and a 00:57:09.949 --> 00:57:15.597 good job, it was very doubtful she would be displaced. 00:57:15.630 --> 00:57:22.396 We're just about through with this. Our anything. 00:57:22.429 --> 00:57:26.217 Well, I didn't have to worry with all of my malarkey did. I got so many 00:57:26.250 --> 00:57:32.497 stories. 00:57:32.530 --> 00:57:37.247 Mhm. But that wasn't so much about the college. You know, it was mentioned. 00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:42.727 I think in the, tell me what the budget was for the first year. Oh, it 00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:47.597 was at the end of this, the budget was 00:57:47.630 --> 00:57:53.796 where is the right piece of paper? 00:57:53.829 --> 00:57:57.287 Huh? I would have it here. 00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:00.467 I think it was, 00:58:00.500 --> 00:58:03.597 I can't leave this position 00:58:03.630 --> 00:58:11.037 but $20,000. That was first. That was for the secretary and myself and 00:58:11.070 --> 00:58:17.456 there wasn't any travel I think. And that's when uh good samaritan 00:58:17.489 --> 00:58:21.557 hospital came to the rescue and I visited Wayne commitment, not Wayne. I 00:58:21.590 --> 00:58:27.396 visited in Seattle the university of Washington to get ideas about what 00:58:27.429 --> 00:58:31.686 the progressive programs. I think Arnold Children went with me to san Jose 00:58:31.719 --> 00:58:34.186 State College. 00:58:34.219 --> 00:58:38.807 But their budget was extremely limited. I think the third year we started 00:58:38.840 --> 00:58:45.316 to get some grants, federal grants And these increased until we almost had 00:58:45.349 --> 00:58:51.486 a 5050 right Position at one time. 00:58:51.519 --> 00:58:55.606 How did the school change when when Arizona State College became a 00:58:55.639 --> 00:58:58.787 university? Did that make a difference? 00:58:58.820 --> 00:59:02.776 I think the school chair Rosemary thought the school changed a lot when we 00:59:02.809 --> 00:59:09.066 moved into the new building because of the we were no that we were no 00:59:09.099 --> 00:59:14.927 longer underground or in an old building. And if Dean Children hadn't been 00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:18.166 here, we still wouldn't have that new building. I don't think he helped 00:59:18.199 --> 00:59:24.657 with the politics about what to do when when I was asked if like the 00:59:24.690 --> 00:59:30.467 mormon church would do for us to move into that. He he told me, you know, 00:59:30.500 --> 00:59:36.206 you have to go and look at it and be sure to be sure that you asked for 00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:40.787 all the remodeling that you're going to need. In other words be specific. 00:59:40.820 --> 00:59:44.706 Well the remodeling was so much that that didn't work, you see, But I 00:59:44.739 --> 00:59:48.927 didn't see that, you know, I was just looking for more space. He was 00:59:48.960 --> 00:59:54.706 keeping it on opting until we could get a building and he was very 00:59:54.739 --> 00:59:58.017 disappointed that we got the building we did. He thought we should have 00:59:58.050 --> 01:00:04.396 been over on this side. So we have room for expansion, but we're bored, I 01:00:04.429 --> 01:00:08.227 guess having a building of your own made you more like a real college and 01:00:08.260 --> 01:00:11.619 the building is modeled after wayne.