pam Stephenson doing the interview. Manny Garcia is our videographer and
I'd like to have you give us your name. So we're pronouncing it correctly.
Matthew joseph bets I'm Ella Mae or Ellie Branch theater. My name is
Charles E bacchus. Known as chuck. My name is Brent whiting brown. I'm
ladd eF core Jr I'm bob Ellis. Well, my name is Jim Elmore, click our
frank kush the name of William. Lewis, William E. Lewis. My name is Alan
Matheson. My name is George Morel. I'm richard J mara. My name is anne
pittman frank J sacked in the J for joseph. I'm Dean smith. My name is
bobby brooks winkles
When I retired, I was director of purchasing and business services. I was
born in Florence just down the road a little ways and came to school left
there and came to school at uh what was then Arizona State Teachers
College in 1937 had about, oh I suppose a little over 1000 students at the
time and all that area where Gammage Auditorium is now. And all that curve
in there except for where the trailers were, was the college farm. We
raised chickens and we raised hogs and we had a dairy farm, but it was a
little bit out of out on Mill Avenue and part of the produce was used for
the dining hall. What little bit that they could all the eggs and that
sort of thing. And the reason I know it well is because when I came to
school, that was my first job, I was cleaning the chicken pins and the pig
pins at the college farm. That was my first job, I did that for a year and
then I was promoted. I went from there to the dining room and I was in the
dishwashing crew in the dining room for a year and then I was since I was
in accounting and had done some clerical work and new, got acquainted with
Gilbert Katie. He gave me a job as a student assistant in the business
office. So I spent my last two years as a, as a clerk in the business
office for I'm working my way through college, I worked my way through
school and graduated in 1941,
Went into the air force in December of 1941 Spent five years in the Air
Force as a fighter pilot.
I spent the longest time as, as director of publications for the
university Glendale High students. I was the salutatorian in our class
athlete. Oh I I held held a state record and a half mile for a while. I
was on the school paper, I was editor of the state press here at the issue
and later he was editor of the yearbook as well. Blessed to interview a
lot of celebrity, isn't it? It's always fun. I came to issue because I
couldn't afford to go anywhere else at the time. Almost all the work on
this campus was done by students. I don't think they were a dozen staff
people full time staff people on the campus, the waiters and the cafeteria
, the maintenance people, the floor sweepers, everybody were students and
they all had student jobs and it couldn't have come otherwise because this
was, we would just come out of it, out of the depression at that time.
Everybody was poor, but we didn't realize it. So we had a good time. I
was in the first, the first group which which graduated with a Bs In
business say the year before and 45. They had changed the name to Arizona
State College and had authorized a bunch of new degrees before that it was
only teaching and most of us didn't want to be teachers anyway, so this
was a good thing for us. Why did you leave the paper then? Well, I got a
call from Don Kinzler who was director of athletics over here. Good friend
of mine that they needed a sports information director. This was in 1950.
So I came, this was my first issue job and like everybody else because of
the budget situation. We had two jobs. I was director of sports
information and now they have I think 10 people in that doing that job.
And I was also the director of student publications, supervising the your
book and the newspapers.
When I retired, I was Associate vice president In university relations but
we relied on the students and we always had 20-40 students that worked at
the station. And uh, we put a lot of money here. Al Michaels who now does
the monday night football games. I was a student and he did some of the
sports programming on Channel eight. After PBS got started.
He recalled that Nixon was president. Um, he did not like public
television. We found out later when the tapes were released before he
resigned, that he had told either Haldeman or Ehrlichman to do away with
public television. The reason he didn't like it, if there was some
programs that criticized him, I don't know how this possibly his, his
hatred of public television could have filtered down to Arizona, but it
seemed to me somehow it did. And in 1970,
I think it was probably 30 years ago in 1972.
Um the president of the border regions paul singer testifying in front of
the senate appropriations committee Accused Channel eight of broadcasting
leftist programming, left wing programming. And that was a nice way of
saying communist inclined programming. I never could figure out what he
meant by left wing programming and they never identified it. But the
committee had a couple of solid right wingers
and they implied that the university budget would be held up And possibly
they would find some way of censoring programs that were left wing
programs on on Channel eight, naturally Republican. The gazette got ahold
of this and it was front page news. I got calls from all the television
stations. It was, it was very serious.
I went to President Suada and offered to resign if that would help. He
knew that Jack Williams and I had been friends that I had worked for him
and he suggested I go down and talk with Jack and see how if this was a
serious program. So I went down to see the governor and told him what had
happened. He knew what had happened. And I told him that I had offered to
resign. That we thought it was a very serious problem. If that would help
the budget situation, I would resign. And he said, okay, don't do that.
And you know, that made me feel happy. Then he said something like I don't
want you to resign because if you do, they'll turn that station over to
some nutty professor. So uh, I I I accepted his admonition and came back
and told the President to swat a that I didn't think that the problem was
going to be that serious. It didn't quite go away. But the budget, the
university budget was passed and it did have Channel Eight's budget within
that umbrella, had friends of Channel eight group that we successfully got
together. And the reason we were able to do that,
I had known Hugh downs and I went to Hugh and asked him if he would be the
chairman of the formation of a friends group. Uh and I thought with his
name, we would be able to attract people. Uh, he said he was, he was
willing to do that. I talked with the president and the president of the
university and uh, mrs Gammage, Catherine Gammage and we invited some
special people To a dinner with Hugh downs and that's, there were 13 or 14
people that came to dinner and that was the start of the friends of
Channel eight. And from that we went into a local on the air fundraising.
I think the First time we went on the air we maybe had 10 phone operators
. I remember Irma Bombeck was one of the founders of the friends group and
she, she came down to answer the phones was rather embarrassing. They were
not ringing.
Well I'm from a family of 15 Children. Uh, my mom and dad are from Europe.
My mother was from Czechoslovakia. My dad was from Poland. They came over
here and my, My dad was a coal miner and we lived in those coal mining
towns in Pennsylvania is very similar to the mines here in Arizona. An
indigent type of family. We didn't have electricity till I would say until
I uh went into high school. My dad died when I was 15. There were 10 of us
, 10 of us at home, fortunately I was supposed to play in the All Star
game in Chicago and they found out I was a football player and that's how
they got assigned to Fort Benning. So I was at Fort Benning for two years
. I really enjoyed it. The training I got in the military was fantastic,
you know, we're all infantry officers and we had great instructions.
The cadre were just remarkable and I was really impressed with it. So I
was fortunate and I had I graduated relatively high in the class because
of my military experience and everything else. And then as I said, when
Duffy Dougherty called me, he said well call dandy vine up, he's going to
be the new head coach at Arizona State College at that time. And that's
how I wandered out to the west, fortunately I was supposed to play in the
All Star game in Chicago and they found out as a football player and
that's how they got assigned to ford and the post commander uh General
Fritchey was kind of an athletic guy, he liked athletics and W dougherty
called me, he was the head coach, not michigan state dan Devine just had
taken a job at Arizona State and Duffy because he recruited me, I had a
great relationship and he said what are you going to do when you get out
of the service? And I said gee, I really don't know yet. I said I was
thinking of staying in the military then dan Devine, he got the head
coaching job at University of Missouri And Jimmy Chrisman and Dr. Gammage
called me over and I was just a young kid, I think I was 28 years old or
29 and asked me, you know, if I would be interested in being a head coach
. I said, well I've committed myself to coach Devine and I said, let me go
talk to him and I'll see you know how he feels about it. Well, I went to
his house and he lived right across the street from me and his his wife
mary jones, okay. I went and talked to him. I said dan. I said dr Gammage
and jimmy Chrisman, he wanted me to talk to you about releasing me if you
need to be the head coach. But he got irritated. He said, oh you're too
young etcetera. And of course he wanted me to go to Missouri, which which
is understandable and being a stubborn Pollak that I am I and I and and
and although his wife intervened and she says dan and then she used to
call me Pancho, She said, how could you do that? She said, you got the job
at michigan state when you're just as young as Pancho was. And so he, he
relented and he said, well go ahead and talk to him if you want to. So
that's how I got the job, do we, 73 mm hmm. Uh and then 74 we didn't play
then 75 was a great one against Nebraska, In fact Nebraska was and there's
another one that irritates me is that. And Nebraska was ranked in the top
10. We were we were in about eighth or ninth, they were sixth or seventh,
etcetera. They had beat Oklahoma and they had one loss, they come in here
and and we beat them and I thought we should have been number one. But
what transpired is that they gave it to Oklahoma, but that probably is the
most gratifying gain. In many respects. My son Danny kicked three field
goals and fred Mortensen. They were both Tempe high grads was a
quarterback that came in for Dennis Brown when he got hurt and he scored a
touchdown, went for two points. And so those two guys from Tempe Tempe
High Buffaloes were responsible for that win. That win was probably the
most significant wind from the standpoint of national recognition. I
remember the Chicago tribune, I still have a copy. Now they know who the
Sun Devils, R. C. And I, you know, that was and that's a good example. I'm
talking about From 55 to mrs 75. Now we're finally being recognized. You
know, that's good. And just think of all the athletes who were in that
period that didn't receive recognition, which I thought that they deserve.
So As I said that 75 Fiesta Bowl game was probably the most significant
game for the Sun Devils from the standpoint of the national recognition
and continued recognition. We we got to the top of the mountain at that
game right?
And mr smith, the athletic director was in, he was up in the globe Miami
and he went to a pay phone because he and Dr Bartell mom, my advisor were
at Iowa preflight together. So I had a pretty good end there and he
recommended me Dr Bartell MMA and mr smith called me. And five minutes
later I was the coach. I've never seen him and he had never seen me.
Things don't happen like that. That's about as lucky as it gets what made
you want to come to Arizona. Well actually because it was closer to uh to
Indianapolis and Chico state.
See there were two jobs open that the professor thought dr Bartell, my
thought I could get one was at Arizona State where they only had a club
program, john Jacobs who came here today played on that team and they
played junior colleges and they played the Air force bases and they always
played Arizona Uh two or 3 games. I I don't know how many at that time.
And and uh so mr I told him I would I would like to go where they were
just going to start a program, a full time program and try to do some good.
And so Mr smith called me five minutes later I was on my way here when
the season was over and he said to me, his final words to me were I said
Well what does this pay Mr. Smith? He said, I'll give you $6,000 a year,
but you can't take a summer job, you've got to be on the campus. And so I
said, well last year I went to Venezuela and played winter ball and with
what I made playing here, I made over $8,000. He said to me very plainly
bobby, I'm going to the siba que The trout might be Buyten, I'll give you
60, I need to know something right now. I said, I'll be there. That's how
I got here. I went to, I got here a roundabout way though. We drove up
route 66 and I ended up in Flagstaff at Arizona State College and thought
I was in Tempe. So I got off and it was football, it was football time.
And I went to the football coach there and I said, hey coach, I'm looking
for Mr Clyde smith, I'm your new baseball coach. And he said, well son,
you're about 100 miles too far north. So Ellie and I got in the car with
our first daughter who was two months old and we headed down for Tempe And
what year was that? That was 1958 September baseball season in the minor
leaguers is in the minor leagues is over the labor day. And we jumped in
the car and headed for here because he let me stay at uh had been traded
to Tulsa at that time and he let me stay there until the season was over.
And what did you think? Well I thought it was a wonderful place it was. I
expected to get a high school job. My first job and this opportunity came
along and
uh it was the biggest break of my life other than when Ellie said I do.
But uh it is such a wonderful place. Well I came to Mr smith when I first
got here and said Mr smith uh we would like to have fall ball and I have
not found the baseball field and he said bobby. He talked rather slow. He
was just a nice pennsylvania man. And he said bobby we don't have a
baseball field. Yeah you're gonna build it. That was news to me. So I
jumped on the phone and called Indianapolis beautiful triple A field in
Indianapolis. And I got I talked to the owner and I asked him to send me
the diagram the plans for the field. He did bob swab, bless his heart. He
got his what little crew he had was not more than three people. And from
September the 10th about when we got here on Jan on February the 5th they
we had a baseball field and we build it right next to Apache it with the
uh where the tennis courts were later built right next to the old Hayden
hall and it was right back up to that and we had a little dressing room. I
don't think it was as big as this room for our baseball team. But it was
right there where they could just walk out and go right on the field.
Where was your office located here? On campus? I was located with dr fred
Bryant and Rudy Leveque. There were three of us in one room. I was a
baseball coach and they were professors, that was it. It was in the old
gym and there was three of us in one room. I think kush was the only guy
important enough to have his own office and deservedly. So what kind of
relationship did you have with frank kush basketball frank kush,
baldy Castillo ned walk and myself were actually like brothers. We became
brothers. I mean we helped each other out anytime we could. Football
players, played baseball, basketball players, played baseball. Baseball
guys ran track. It was that way. It was a small school when we first
started And we, those are three. I don't think that there's probably
another school in the country that has the Camaraderie between four sports
that we had. Why was that? It's just because we helped each other. I went
to their practices. I'm out on the football field trying to kick a
football with a partner and and they're coming to baseball practices and
watching practice and we it was and they are the athletes, all the
football players came to our games and we went to theirs and basketball.
We went all all those games and I mean it was just, it was a wonderful
family is what it was.
I served that I got chosen by governor Castro to go down and head what was
then the Office of Economic Planning Development. So I worked under
Governor Castro and then governor boland and then governor babbitt for
four years. I was, I was the head of the Office of Economic Plan
Development. It was a major state agency and uh,
I was on the leave of absence from the University for four years at that
time. And when I came it's now the department of Commerce, it's now called
the Department of Commerce. When I came back uh they asked me to because
they didn't have a lobbyist for the university and they, we're just
discovering that they needed to have somebody lobby for him. And so they
asked me to do that. And I started out, I think my title was Director of
Community relations and that that went until I was a vice president. They
kept changing my title and moving me up the ladder and I became assistant
vice president for community relations and then vice president of
university relations and Served in that capacity for 11 years. It seems
like that area. I I was the chief lobbyist for the university during all
that time. What was the biggest challenge of that job. Well when I, when
we started out, we we were the low
university on the totem pole, the history of ASU had always been second
fiddle to the University of Arizona.
It's not quite as intense as it used to be, but at that time it was very
intense because Arizona State University had never had a member of the
border regions After they unified the border regions. And I think it was
1946 when they unified the border regions. So from 1946 until 1972, we've
never had a member of the border regions and we were always
second fiddle. And so the big challenge was to, to change that. In fact,
I'll tell you a little story that I was a student here at Arizona State
University as an undergraduate. That was before my, my graduate days. But
I was taking a class from ross rice and it was legislative relations and
we had to write a paper for that class. And so I decided to write it on
the appropriations process. And my brother was in the legislature. Then.
My brother is Jack Brown, he's still in the legislature, He's a minority
leader in the Senate still, but he's he's been there 30 years and he was
on the appropriations committee. And so I attended the appropriations
hearings and one day while I was down there, they kicked everybody out of
the appropriations committee. That was before the days of the open meeting
law. And so I stuck around outside to see what was going on. And when they
finally broke up an hour or so later, I asked Jack what happened? And he
said, well, he said, sweet johnson, who is the U. Of a vice president,
wrote the budgets for the three universities. And I said, well, where was
a issue? He says, and any you, he says they weren't at the table. And so I
knew that that at that point in time that a issue was way behind in terms
of influence at the legislature. And little did I know that years later I
would become the lobbyist for the university and help to correct that. And
it was a battle. But we did turn the tide and we're able to get some
equity with the University of Arizona. But it was not an easy process. It
was long, hard and we had a lot of political battles.
School and Syracuse had gotten a major grant from the Carnegie Foundation
to do this study and we were doing a comparative study of Missouri
Illinois and michigan. And I was assigned michigan to go do the field work
to interview all of the key people, the Superintendent of public
instruction, the chairman of the House and Senate appropriations
committees and education so on. And so I was to go up there for a month or
two to do the interviewing well as a pipsqueak graduate student trying to
get appointments with these people in advance, it was just impossible, I'd
call and they wouldn't call back. And so I finally decided, well, I'll
just go up there. So in february Of 1961, I went to Lansing with plans to
stay a month, arrived on a Tuesday night, uh checked into the Jack Tar
hotel, right on the main plaza next to the capital. Lights were all
blazing in the capital. I walked into the Senate Chambers in the House
Chamber is not a soul. About 88 or 83 walked into the governor's office
which was on the same floor and Mennen Williams, G. Mennen Williams, who
had been governor for 14 years, had just been appointed by president
Kennedy to be undersecretary of state and a 34 year old named john
Swainson double amputee and the Battle of the bulge of the Second World
War had been elected governor last two terms Gov. Last two term period in
the, in Michigan's history. And the pictures Mennen Williams, pictures are
all still on the wall. He had just left. And here this young governor had
just come in, no one in the outer office walked into the inner office and
here was this young governor flanked by a secretary on each side. I just
brashly walked in and introduce myself and he asked what I was doing there
and I told him, he said I could use someone like that on my staff and I
said, I'll join it free of charge. And by friday I was assistant to the
governor part time, nope with an office and was actually helping him write
a speech for, for a major convention. He was speaking to that weekend in
grand rapids. So I stayed six months by that time. By the way, all these
people were calling me that I was trying to set appointments with, did did
the study wrote what turned out to be a chapter and went back to ST louis
to complete my work and finish my other requirements except for the
dissertation, my other language and so on. I went back in october with the
galleys to just check the quotes and make sure everything was in hand and
john john Swinton was the governor's name. John said my administrative
assistant has just gone to Washington to work for a minute. Would you be
my administrative assistant? I said john I'm 25 years old. I'm 10 years
younger than anyone else. I'm, I live in ST louis. I'm a legal resident of
Arizona. I drive an MG, you know, In, in Michigan I said I with an Arizona
plate on. I said I can't imagine that would work and he said no, you hide
your car but I come to work. So I then worked 14 months for John who was
defeated um in his bid for reelection by George Romney. It was the
beginning of that big new era, but it was an it was an extraordinary
opportunity for me, including, uh, in addition to my professional
responsibilities as an administrative assistant of the governor, I got
involved in his reelection campaign And was responsible for northern
Michigan and the Upper Peninsula. So three or 4 afternoons a week, we'd
take off in a small plane and go up and make our way through. It was kind
of magical towns way north.