WEBVTT 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:05.327 pam Stephenson doing the interview. Manny Garcia is our videographer and 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:09.306 I'd like to have you give us your name. So we're pronouncing it correctly. 00:00:09.339 --> 00:00:15.777 Matthew joseph bets I'm Ella Mae or Ellie Branch theater. My name is 00:00:15.810 --> 00:00:21.887 Charles E bacchus. Known as chuck. My name is Brent whiting brown. I'm 00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:29.317 ladd eF core Jr I'm bob Ellis. Well, my name is Jim Elmore, click our 00:00:29.350 --> 00:00:34.997 frank kush the name of William. Lewis, William E. Lewis. My name is Alan 00:00:35.030 --> 00:00:41.086 Matheson. My name is George Morel. I'm richard J mara. My name is anne 00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:48.747 pittman frank J sacked in the J for joseph. I'm Dean smith. My name is 00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:56.780 bobby brooks winkles 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:02.936 When I retired, I was director of purchasing and business services. I was 00:01:02.969 --> 00:01:08.247 born in Florence just down the road a little ways and came to school left 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:11.986 there and came to school at uh what was then Arizona State Teachers 00:01:12.019 --> 00:01:17.456 College in 1937 had about, oh I suppose a little over 1000 students at the 00:01:17.489 --> 00:01:21.277 time and all that area where Gammage Auditorium is now. And all that curve 00:01:21.310 --> 00:01:26.546 in there except for where the trailers were, was the college farm. We 00:01:26.579 --> 00:01:31.676 raised chickens and we raised hogs and we had a dairy farm, but it was a 00:01:31.709 --> 00:01:37.527 little bit out of out on Mill Avenue and part of the produce was used for 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:40.546 the dining hall. What little bit that they could all the eggs and that 00:01:40.579 --> 00:01:44.217 sort of thing. And the reason I know it well is because when I came to 00:01:44.250 --> 00:01:49.156 school, that was my first job, I was cleaning the chicken pins and the pig 00:01:49.189 --> 00:01:55.956 pins at the college farm. That was my first job, I did that for a year and 00:01:55.989 --> 00:02:01.587 then I was promoted. I went from there to the dining room and I was in the 00:02:01.620 --> 00:02:07.197 dishwashing crew in the dining room for a year and then I was since I was 00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:12.606 in accounting and had done some clerical work and new, got acquainted with 00:02:12.639 --> 00:02:17.427 Gilbert Katie. He gave me a job as a student assistant in the business 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:21.256 office. So I spent my last two years as a, as a clerk in the business 00:02:21.289 --> 00:02:26.867 office for I'm working my way through college, I worked my way through 00:02:26.900 --> 00:02:30.106 school and graduated in 1941, 00:02:30.139 --> 00:02:36.656 Went into the air force in December of 1941 Spent five years in the Air 00:02:36.689 --> 00:02:42.606 Force as a fighter pilot. 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.767 I spent the longest time as, as director of publications for the 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:51.867 university Glendale High students. I was the salutatorian in our class 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:57.547 athlete. Oh I I held held a state record and a half mile for a while. I 00:02:57.580 --> 00:03:01.376 was on the school paper, I was editor of the state press here at the issue 00:03:01.409 --> 00:03:05.557 and later he was editor of the yearbook as well. Blessed to interview a 00:03:05.590 --> 00:03:09.217 lot of celebrity, isn't it? It's always fun. I came to issue because I 00:03:09.250 --> 00:03:13.226 couldn't afford to go anywhere else at the time. Almost all the work on 00:03:13.259 --> 00:03:17.256 this campus was done by students. I don't think they were a dozen staff 00:03:17.289 --> 00:03:21.807 people full time staff people on the campus, the waiters and the cafeteria 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:27.186 , the maintenance people, the floor sweepers, everybody were students and 00:03:27.219 --> 00:03:29.906 they all had student jobs and it couldn't have come otherwise because this 00:03:29.939 --> 00:03:33.186 was, we would just come out of it, out of the depression at that time. 00:03:33.219 --> 00:03:36.237 Everybody was poor, but we didn't realize it. So we had a good time. I 00:03:36.270 --> 00:03:41.886 was in the first, the first group which which graduated with a Bs In 00:03:41.919 --> 00:03:46.346 business say the year before and 45. They had changed the name to Arizona 00:03:46.379 --> 00:03:49.946 State College and had authorized a bunch of new degrees before that it was 00:03:49.979 --> 00:03:56.036 only teaching and most of us didn't want to be teachers anyway, so this 00:03:56.069 --> 00:04:01.186 was a good thing for us. Why did you leave the paper then? Well, I got a 00:04:01.219 --> 00:04:05.656 call from Don Kinzler who was director of athletics over here. Good friend 00:04:05.689 --> 00:04:10.367 of mine that they needed a sports information director. This was in 1950. 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:14.416 So I came, this was my first issue job and like everybody else because of 00:04:14.449 --> 00:04:18.207 the budget situation. We had two jobs. I was director of sports 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:24.166 information and now they have I think 10 people in that doing that job. 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:30.577 And I was also the director of student publications, supervising the your 00:04:30.610 --> 00:04:36.207 book and the newspapers. 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:40.837 When I retired, I was Associate vice president In university relations but 00:04:40.870 --> 00:04:46.127 we relied on the students and we always had 20-40 students that worked at 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:52.166 the station. And uh, we put a lot of money here. Al Michaels who now does 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:57.996 the monday night football games. I was a student and he did some of the 00:04:58.029 --> 00:05:04.606 sports programming on Channel eight. After PBS got started. 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:11.106 He recalled that Nixon was president. Um, he did not like public 00:05:11.139 --> 00:05:17.437 television. We found out later when the tapes were released before he 00:05:17.470 --> 00:05:23.286 resigned, that he had told either Haldeman or Ehrlichman to do away with 00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:26.656 public television. The reason he didn't like it, if there was some 00:05:26.689 --> 00:05:34.217 programs that criticized him, I don't know how this possibly his, his 00:05:34.250 --> 00:05:38.587 hatred of public television could have filtered down to Arizona, but it 00:05:38.620 --> 00:05:44.777 seemed to me somehow it did. And in 1970, 00:05:44.810 --> 00:05:49.507 I think it was probably 30 years ago in 1972. 00:05:49.540 --> 00:05:54.767 Um the president of the border regions paul singer testifying in front of 00:05:54.800 --> 00:06:01.007 the senate appropriations committee Accused Channel eight of broadcasting 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:06.777 leftist programming, left wing programming. And that was a nice way of 00:06:06.810 --> 00:06:12.676 saying communist inclined programming. I never could figure out what he 00:06:12.709 --> 00:06:17.676 meant by left wing programming and they never identified it. But the 00:06:17.709 --> 00:06:23.306 committee had a couple of solid right wingers 00:06:23.339 --> 00:06:31.339 and they implied that the university budget would be held up And possibly 00:06:31.949 --> 00:06:36.166 they would find some way of censoring programs that were left wing 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:42.067 programs on on Channel eight, naturally Republican. The gazette got ahold 00:06:42.100 --> 00:06:46.486 of this and it was front page news. I got calls from all the television 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:51.397 stations. It was, it was very serious. 00:06:51.430 --> 00:06:57.087 I went to President Suada and offered to resign if that would help. He 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:01.096 knew that Jack Williams and I had been friends that I had worked for him 00:07:01.129 --> 00:07:05.067 and he suggested I go down and talk with Jack and see how if this was a 00:07:05.100 --> 00:07:09.957 serious program. So I went down to see the governor and told him what had 00:07:09.990 --> 00:07:13.647 happened. He knew what had happened. And I told him that I had offered to 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:18.166 resign. That we thought it was a very serious problem. If that would help 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:23.106 the budget situation, I would resign. And he said, okay, don't do that. 00:07:23.139 --> 00:07:27.937 And you know, that made me feel happy. Then he said something like I don't 00:07:27.970 --> 00:07:30.967 want you to resign because if you do, they'll turn that station over to 00:07:31.000 --> 00:07:39.000 some nutty professor. So uh, I I I accepted his admonition and came back 00:07:39.889 --> 00:07:45.277 and told the President to swat a that I didn't think that the problem was 00:07:45.310 --> 00:07:49.467 going to be that serious. It didn't quite go away. But the budget, the 00:07:49.500 --> 00:07:53.587 university budget was passed and it did have Channel Eight's budget within 00:07:53.620 --> 00:08:01.620 that umbrella, had friends of Channel eight group that we successfully got 00:08:02.209 --> 00:08:07.306 together. And the reason we were able to do that, 00:08:07.339 --> 00:08:15.339 I had known Hugh downs and I went to Hugh and asked him if he would be the 00:08:16.420 --> 00:08:22.837 chairman of the formation of a friends group. Uh and I thought with his 00:08:22.870 --> 00:08:27.116 name, we would be able to attract people. Uh, he said he was, he was 00:08:27.149 --> 00:08:31.577 willing to do that. I talked with the president and the president of the 00:08:31.610 --> 00:08:38.766 university and uh, mrs Gammage, Catherine Gammage and we invited some 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:46.087 special people To a dinner with Hugh downs and that's, there were 13 or 14 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:50.516 people that came to dinner and that was the start of the friends of 00:08:50.549 --> 00:08:56.346 Channel eight. And from that we went into a local on the air fundraising. 00:08:56.379 --> 00:09:00.876 I think the First time we went on the air we maybe had 10 phone operators 00:09:00.909 --> 00:09:06.697 . I remember Irma Bombeck was one of the founders of the friends group and 00:09:06.730 --> 00:09:10.467 she, she came down to answer the phones was rather embarrassing. They were 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:16.807 not ringing. 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:24.256 Well I'm from a family of 15 Children. Uh, my mom and dad are from Europe. 00:09:24.289 --> 00:09:29.006 My mother was from Czechoslovakia. My dad was from Poland. They came over 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:35.146 here and my, My dad was a coal miner and we lived in those coal mining 00:09:35.179 --> 00:09:38.266 towns in Pennsylvania is very similar to the mines here in Arizona. An 00:09:38.299 --> 00:09:42.157 indigent type of family. We didn't have electricity till I would say until 00:09:42.190 --> 00:09:47.437 I uh went into high school. My dad died when I was 15. There were 10 of us 00:09:47.470 --> 00:09:51.596 , 10 of us at home, fortunately I was supposed to play in the All Star 00:09:51.629 --> 00:09:54.266 game in Chicago and they found out I was a football player and that's how 00:09:54.299 --> 00:09:57.047 they got assigned to Fort Benning. So I was at Fort Benning for two years 00:09:57.080 --> 00:10:02.106 . I really enjoyed it. The training I got in the military was fantastic, 00:10:02.139 --> 00:10:07.177 you know, we're all infantry officers and we had great instructions. 00:10:07.210 --> 00:10:12.756 The cadre were just remarkable and I was really impressed with it. So I 00:10:12.789 --> 00:10:17.026 was fortunate and I had I graduated relatively high in the class because 00:10:17.059 --> 00:10:21.276 of my military experience and everything else. And then as I said, when 00:10:21.309 --> 00:10:25.417 Duffy Dougherty called me, he said well call dandy vine up, he's going to 00:10:25.450 --> 00:10:30.187 be the new head coach at Arizona State College at that time. And that's 00:10:30.220 --> 00:10:33.927 how I wandered out to the west, fortunately I was supposed to play in the 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:36.766 All Star game in Chicago and they found out as a football player and 00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:41.957 that's how they got assigned to ford and the post commander uh General 00:10:41.990 --> 00:10:47.407 Fritchey was kind of an athletic guy, he liked athletics and W dougherty 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:51.467 called me, he was the head coach, not michigan state dan Devine just had 00:10:51.500 --> 00:10:55.577 taken a job at Arizona State and Duffy because he recruited me, I had a 00:10:55.610 --> 00:10:57.967 great relationship and he said what are you going to do when you get out 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.996 of the service? And I said gee, I really don't know yet. I said I was 00:11:02.029 --> 00:11:06.337 thinking of staying in the military then dan Devine, he got the head 00:11:06.370 --> 00:11:12.457 coaching job at University of Missouri And Jimmy Chrisman and Dr. Gammage 00:11:12.490 --> 00:11:15.787 called me over and I was just a young kid, I think I was 28 years old or 00:11:15.820 --> 00:11:20.157 29 and asked me, you know, if I would be interested in being a head coach 00:11:20.190 --> 00:11:25.616 . I said, well I've committed myself to coach Devine and I said, let me go 00:11:25.649 --> 00:11:29.726 talk to him and I'll see you know how he feels about it. Well, I went to 00:11:29.759 --> 00:11:33.516 his house and he lived right across the street from me and his his wife 00:11:33.549 --> 00:11:39.217 mary jones, okay. I went and talked to him. I said dan. I said dr Gammage 00:11:39.250 --> 00:11:44.486 and jimmy Chrisman, he wanted me to talk to you about releasing me if you 00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:47.776 need to be the head coach. But he got irritated. He said, oh you're too 00:11:47.809 --> 00:11:50.707 young etcetera. And of course he wanted me to go to Missouri, which which 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:56.616 is understandable and being a stubborn Pollak that I am I and I and and 00:11:56.649 --> 00:12:01.437 and although his wife intervened and she says dan and then she used to 00:12:01.470 --> 00:12:05.407 call me Pancho, She said, how could you do that? She said, you got the job 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:10.006 at michigan state when you're just as young as Pancho was. And so he, he 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:12.506 relented and he said, well go ahead and talk to him if you want to. So 00:12:12.539 --> 00:12:20.346 that's how I got the job, do we, 73 mm hmm. Uh and then 74 we didn't play 00:12:20.379 --> 00:12:26.467 then 75 was a great one against Nebraska, In fact Nebraska was and there's 00:12:26.500 --> 00:12:30.677 another one that irritates me is that. And Nebraska was ranked in the top 00:12:30.710 --> 00:12:34.437 10. We were we were in about eighth or ninth, they were sixth or seventh, 00:12:34.470 --> 00:12:40.146 etcetera. They had beat Oklahoma and they had one loss, they come in here 00:12:40.179 --> 00:12:44.557 and and we beat them and I thought we should have been number one. But 00:12:44.590 --> 00:12:48.447 what transpired is that they gave it to Oklahoma, but that probably is the 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.787 most gratifying gain. In many respects. My son Danny kicked three field 00:12:52.820 --> 00:12:57.616 goals and fred Mortensen. They were both Tempe high grads was a 00:12:57.649 --> 00:13:01.236 quarterback that came in for Dennis Brown when he got hurt and he scored a 00:13:01.269 --> 00:13:05.476 touchdown, went for two points. And so those two guys from Tempe Tempe 00:13:05.509 --> 00:13:09.817 High Buffaloes were responsible for that win. That win was probably the 00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:12.886 most significant wind from the standpoint of national recognition. I 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.547 remember the Chicago tribune, I still have a copy. Now they know who the 00:13:16.580 --> 00:13:20.687 Sun Devils, R. C. And I, you know, that was and that's a good example. I'm 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:26.937 talking about From 55 to mrs 75. Now we're finally being recognized. You 00:13:26.970 --> 00:13:30.437 know, that's good. And just think of all the athletes who were in that 00:13:30.470 --> 00:13:33.606 period that didn't receive recognition, which I thought that they deserve. 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:38.827 So As I said that 75 Fiesta Bowl game was probably the most significant 00:13:38.860 --> 00:13:42.866 game for the Sun Devils from the standpoint of the national recognition 00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:46.447 and continued recognition. We we got to the top of the mountain at that 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:52.106 game right? 00:13:52.139 --> 00:14:00.139 And mr smith, the athletic director was in, he was up in the globe Miami 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:05.976 and he went to a pay phone because he and Dr Bartell mom, my advisor were 00:14:06.009 --> 00:14:11.736 at Iowa preflight together. So I had a pretty good end there and he 00:14:11.769 --> 00:14:15.697 recommended me Dr Bartell MMA and mr smith called me. And five minutes 00:14:15.730 --> 00:14:21.106 later I was the coach. I've never seen him and he had never seen me. 00:14:21.139 --> 00:14:25.707 Things don't happen like that. That's about as lucky as it gets what made 00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:30.996 you want to come to Arizona. Well actually because it was closer to uh to 00:14:31.029 --> 00:14:34.606 Indianapolis and Chico state. 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:39.106 See there were two jobs open that the professor thought dr Bartell, my 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:43.317 thought I could get one was at Arizona State where they only had a club 00:14:43.350 --> 00:14:50.016 program, john Jacobs who came here today played on that team and they 00:14:50.049 --> 00:14:54.787 played junior colleges and they played the Air force bases and they always 00:14:54.820 --> 00:15:00.606 played Arizona Uh two or 3 games. I I don't know how many at that time. 00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:07.276 And and uh so mr I told him I would I would like to go where they were 00:15:07.309 --> 00:15:12.207 just going to start a program, a full time program and try to do some good. 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.116 And so Mr smith called me five minutes later I was on my way here when 00:15:16.149 --> 00:15:24.149 the season was over and he said to me, his final words to me were I said 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:28.736 Well what does this pay Mr. Smith? He said, I'll give you $6,000 a year, 00:15:28.769 --> 00:15:34.776 but you can't take a summer job, you've got to be on the campus. And so I 00:15:34.809 --> 00:15:38.787 said, well last year I went to Venezuela and played winter ball and with 00:15:38.820 --> 00:15:44.077 what I made playing here, I made over $8,000. He said to me very plainly 00:15:44.110 --> 00:15:50.526 bobby, I'm going to the siba que The trout might be Buyten, I'll give you 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:56.087 60, I need to know something right now. I said, I'll be there. That's how 00:15:56.120 --> 00:16:00.476 I got here. I went to, I got here a roundabout way though. We drove up 00:16:00.509 --> 00:16:05.266 route 66 and I ended up in Flagstaff at Arizona State College and thought 00:16:05.299 --> 00:16:10.707 I was in Tempe. So I got off and it was football, it was football time. 00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:14.567 And I went to the football coach there and I said, hey coach, I'm looking 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:20.307 for Mr Clyde smith, I'm your new baseball coach. And he said, well son, 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:24.616 you're about 100 miles too far north. So Ellie and I got in the car with 00:16:24.649 --> 00:16:30.077 our first daughter who was two months old and we headed down for Tempe And 00:16:30.110 --> 00:16:34.587 what year was that? That was 1958 September baseball season in the minor 00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:38.467 leaguers is in the minor leagues is over the labor day. And we jumped in 00:16:38.500 --> 00:16:43.717 the car and headed for here because he let me stay at uh had been traded 00:16:43.750 --> 00:16:47.506 to Tulsa at that time and he let me stay there until the season was over. 00:16:47.539 --> 00:16:53.337 And what did you think? Well I thought it was a wonderful place it was. I 00:16:53.370 --> 00:16:58.616 expected to get a high school job. My first job and this opportunity came 00:16:58.649 --> 00:17:01.307 along and 00:17:01.340 --> 00:17:06.306 uh it was the biggest break of my life other than when Ellie said I do. 00:17:06.339 --> 00:17:13.147 But uh it is such a wonderful place. Well I came to Mr smith when I first 00:17:13.180 --> 00:17:18.117 got here and said Mr smith uh we would like to have fall ball and I have 00:17:18.150 --> 00:17:22.286 not found the baseball field and he said bobby. He talked rather slow. He 00:17:22.319 --> 00:17:27.806 was just a nice pennsylvania man. And he said bobby we don't have a 00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:33.197 baseball field. Yeah you're gonna build it. That was news to me. So I 00:17:33.230 --> 00:17:36.847 jumped on the phone and called Indianapolis beautiful triple A field in 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:42.707 Indianapolis. And I got I talked to the owner and I asked him to send me 00:17:42.740 --> 00:17:50.740 the diagram the plans for the field. He did bob swab, bless his heart. He 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:55.367 got his what little crew he had was not more than three people. And from 00:17:55.400 --> 00:18:02.796 September the 10th about when we got here on Jan on February the 5th they 00:18:02.829 --> 00:18:09.407 we had a baseball field and we build it right next to Apache it with the 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:14.766 uh where the tennis courts were later built right next to the old Hayden 00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:20.107 hall and it was right back up to that and we had a little dressing room. I 00:18:20.140 --> 00:18:23.877 don't think it was as big as this room for our baseball team. But it was 00:18:23.910 --> 00:18:26.707 right there where they could just walk out and go right on the field. 00:18:26.740 --> 00:18:31.847 Where was your office located here? On campus? I was located with dr fred 00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:36.546 Bryant and Rudy Leveque. There were three of us in one room. I was a 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:40.526 baseball coach and they were professors, that was it. It was in the old 00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:45.976 gym and there was three of us in one room. I think kush was the only guy 00:18:46.009 --> 00:18:52.207 important enough to have his own office and deservedly. So what kind of 00:18:52.240 --> 00:18:57.607 relationship did you have with frank kush basketball frank kush, 00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:04.486 baldy Castillo ned walk and myself were actually like brothers. We became 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:09.437 brothers. I mean we helped each other out anytime we could. Football 00:19:09.470 --> 00:19:14.417 players, played baseball, basketball players, played baseball. Baseball 00:19:14.450 --> 00:19:18.647 guys ran track. It was that way. It was a small school when we first 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:24.597 started And we, those are three. I don't think that there's probably 00:19:24.630 --> 00:19:29.207 another school in the country that has the Camaraderie between four sports 00:19:29.240 --> 00:19:34.957 that we had. Why was that? It's just because we helped each other. I went 00:19:34.990 --> 00:19:38.476 to their practices. I'm out on the football field trying to kick a 00:19:38.509 --> 00:19:44.026 football with a partner and and they're coming to baseball practices and 00:19:44.059 --> 00:19:48.187 watching practice and we it was and they are the athletes, all the 00:19:48.220 --> 00:19:52.467 football players came to our games and we went to theirs and basketball. 00:19:52.500 --> 00:19:57.887 We went all all those games and I mean it was just, it was a wonderful 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:04.207 family is what it was. 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:09.887 I served that I got chosen by governor Castro to go down and head what was 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:14.066 then the Office of Economic Planning Development. So I worked under 00:20:14.099 --> 00:20:18.917 Governor Castro and then governor boland and then governor babbitt for 00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:21.907 four years. I was, I was the head of the Office of Economic Plan 00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:28.607 Development. It was a major state agency and uh, 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.957 I was on the leave of absence from the University for four years at that 00:20:31.990 --> 00:20:37.607 time. And when I came it's now the department of Commerce, it's now called 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:43.847 the Department of Commerce. When I came back uh they asked me to because 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:47.496 they didn't have a lobbyist for the university and they, we're just 00:20:47.529 --> 00:20:51.907 discovering that they needed to have somebody lobby for him. And so they 00:20:51.940 --> 00:20:58.526 asked me to do that. And I started out, I think my title was Director of 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:05.867 Community relations and that that went until I was a vice president. They 00:21:05.900 --> 00:21:11.776 kept changing my title and moving me up the ladder and I became assistant 00:21:11.809 --> 00:21:15.256 vice president for community relations and then vice president of 00:21:15.289 --> 00:21:21.036 university relations and Served in that capacity for 11 years. It seems 00:21:21.069 --> 00:21:24.957 like that area. I I was the chief lobbyist for the university during all 00:21:24.990 --> 00:21:30.836 that time. What was the biggest challenge of that job. Well when I, when 00:21:30.869 --> 00:21:36.707 we started out, we we were the low 00:21:36.740 --> 00:21:43.357 university on the totem pole, the history of ASU had always been second 00:21:43.390 --> 00:21:46.806 fiddle to the University of Arizona. 00:21:46.839 --> 00:21:52.756 It's not quite as intense as it used to be, but at that time it was very 00:21:52.789 --> 00:21:58.177 intense because Arizona State University had never had a member of the 00:21:58.210 --> 00:22:02.847 border regions After they unified the border regions. And I think it was 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:10.566 1946 when they unified the border regions. So from 1946 until 1972, we've 00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:16.417 never had a member of the border regions and we were always 00:22:16.450 --> 00:22:23.417 second fiddle. And so the big challenge was to, to change that. In fact, 00:22:23.450 --> 00:22:27.286 I'll tell you a little story that I was a student here at Arizona State 00:22:27.319 --> 00:22:33.476 University as an undergraduate. That was before my, my graduate days. But 00:22:33.509 --> 00:22:39.476 I was taking a class from ross rice and it was legislative relations and 00:22:39.509 --> 00:22:44.627 we had to write a paper for that class. And so I decided to write it on 00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:49.496 the appropriations process. And my brother was in the legislature. Then. 00:22:49.529 --> 00:22:53.847 My brother is Jack Brown, he's still in the legislature, He's a minority 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:57.836 leader in the Senate still, but he's he's been there 30 years and he was 00:22:57.869 --> 00:23:02.147 on the appropriations committee. And so I attended the appropriations 00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:06.427 hearings and one day while I was down there, they kicked everybody out of 00:23:06.460 --> 00:23:09.836 the appropriations committee. That was before the days of the open meeting 00:23:09.869 --> 00:23:15.627 law. And so I stuck around outside to see what was going on. And when they 00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:19.746 finally broke up an hour or so later, I asked Jack what happened? And he 00:23:19.779 --> 00:23:24.506 said, well, he said, sweet johnson, who is the U. Of a vice president, 00:23:24.539 --> 00:23:28.687 wrote the budgets for the three universities. And I said, well, where was 00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:34.427 a issue? He says, and any you, he says they weren't at the table. And so I 00:23:34.460 --> 00:23:41.076 knew that that at that point in time that a issue was way behind in terms 00:23:41.109 --> 00:23:45.726 of influence at the legislature. And little did I know that years later I 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:51.036 would become the lobbyist for the university and help to correct that. And 00:23:51.069 --> 00:23:56.256 it was a battle. But we did turn the tide and we're able to get some 00:23:56.289 --> 00:24:00.127 equity with the University of Arizona. But it was not an easy process. It 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:08.160 was long, hard and we had a lot of political battles. 00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:13.296 School and Syracuse had gotten a major grant from the Carnegie Foundation 00:24:13.329 --> 00:24:17.586 to do this study and we were doing a comparative study of Missouri 00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:24.276 Illinois and michigan. And I was assigned michigan to go do the field work 00:24:24.309 --> 00:24:28.076 to interview all of the key people, the Superintendent of public 00:24:28.109 --> 00:24:30.996 instruction, the chairman of the House and Senate appropriations 00:24:31.029 --> 00:24:36.796 committees and education so on. And so I was to go up there for a month or 00:24:36.829 --> 00:24:41.607 two to do the interviewing well as a pipsqueak graduate student trying to 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.026 get appointments with these people in advance, it was just impossible, I'd 00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:48.947 call and they wouldn't call back. And so I finally decided, well, I'll 00:24:48.980 --> 00:24:56.117 just go up there. So in february Of 1961, I went to Lansing with plans to 00:24:56.150 --> 00:25:02.857 stay a month, arrived on a Tuesday night, uh checked into the Jack Tar 00:25:02.890 --> 00:25:07.496 hotel, right on the main plaza next to the capital. Lights were all 00:25:07.529 --> 00:25:11.556 blazing in the capital. I walked into the Senate Chambers in the House 00:25:11.589 --> 00:25:16.357 Chamber is not a soul. About 88 or 83 walked into the governor's office 00:25:16.390 --> 00:25:20.816 which was on the same floor and Mennen Williams, G. Mennen Williams, who 00:25:20.849 --> 00:25:25.097 had been governor for 14 years, had just been appointed by president 00:25:25.130 --> 00:25:30.336 Kennedy to be undersecretary of state and a 34 year old named john 00:25:30.369 --> 00:25:34.826 Swainson double amputee and the Battle of the bulge of the Second World 00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:42.397 War had been elected governor last two terms Gov. Last two term period in 00:25:42.430 --> 00:25:46.367 the, in Michigan's history. And the pictures Mennen Williams, pictures are 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:49.756 all still on the wall. He had just left. And here this young governor had 00:25:49.789 --> 00:25:54.687 just come in, no one in the outer office walked into the inner office and 00:25:54.720 --> 00:25:59.697 here was this young governor flanked by a secretary on each side. I just 00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:04.697 brashly walked in and introduce myself and he asked what I was doing there 00:26:04.730 --> 00:26:07.447 and I told him, he said I could use someone like that on my staff and I 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:12.857 said, I'll join it free of charge. And by friday I was assistant to the 00:26:12.890 --> 00:26:18.717 governor part time, nope with an office and was actually helping him write 00:26:18.750 --> 00:26:25.576 a speech for, for a major convention. He was speaking to that weekend in 00:26:25.609 --> 00:26:29.806 grand rapids. So I stayed six months by that time. By the way, all these 00:26:29.839 --> 00:26:33.556 people were calling me that I was trying to set appointments with, did did 00:26:33.589 --> 00:26:38.826 the study wrote what turned out to be a chapter and went back to ST louis 00:26:38.859 --> 00:26:43.467 to complete my work and finish my other requirements except for the 00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:48.407 dissertation, my other language and so on. I went back in october with the 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:53.986 galleys to just check the quotes and make sure everything was in hand and 00:26:54.019 --> 00:26:59.637 john john Swinton was the governor's name. John said my administrative 00:26:59.670 --> 00:27:04.566 assistant has just gone to Washington to work for a minute. Would you be 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:09.496 my administrative assistant? I said john I'm 25 years old. I'm 10 years 00:27:09.529 --> 00:27:14.776 younger than anyone else. I'm, I live in ST louis. I'm a legal resident of 00:27:14.809 --> 00:27:22.809 Arizona. I drive an MG, you know, In, in Michigan I said I with an Arizona 00:27:23.299 --> 00:27:28.056 plate on. I said I can't imagine that would work and he said no, you hide 00:27:28.089 --> 00:27:34.496 your car but I come to work. So I then worked 14 months for John who was 00:27:34.529 --> 00:27:39.167 defeated um in his bid for reelection by George Romney. It was the 00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:46.566 beginning of that big new era, but it was an it was an extraordinary 00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:54.599 opportunity for me, including, uh, in addition to my professional 00:27:55.390 --> 00:27:59.766 responsibilities as an administrative assistant of the governor, I got 00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:05.627 involved in his reelection campaign And was responsible for northern 00:28:05.660 --> 00:28:09.986 Michigan and the Upper Peninsula. So three or 4 afternoons a week, we'd 00:28:10.019 --> 00:28:15.677 take off in a small plane and go up and make our way through. It was kind 00:28:15.710 --> 00:28:19.410 of magical towns way north.