WEBVTT 00:00:09.039 --> 00:00:11.039 Today is Wednesday the 28th day of March 2012. We're conducting an 00:00:14.730 --> 00:00:19.076 interview for the Arizona State University retires Association video 00:00:19.109 --> 00:00:23.837 history project we're located today in the A. S. U. Community Services 00:00:23.870 --> 00:00:29.627 building. I am J. Richard hey for professor emeritus of music. The 00:00:29.660 --> 00:00:35.207 technical support staff today includes Dave shortly operating the camera 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:40.607 ah and linda Vance coy, chairman of the S. U. R. A video history project 00:00:40.640 --> 00:00:46.597 uh operating the audio. Please introduce yourself and state your name and 00:00:46.630 --> 00:00:51.446 the positions you've held at the issue. I'm Marilyn words burger and I was 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:57.427 hired in 1960 to work in the library. And I started out as a cataloger and 00:00:57.460 --> 00:01:03.037 continued as a cataloger and uh um was appointed as head of the 00:01:03.070 --> 00:01:10.477 reclassification division In 1962. And then I what became the rare books 00:01:10.510 --> 00:01:18.510 cataloger and was then elevated to acting head of special collections and 00:01:18.739 --> 00:01:23.156 uh later the full head of special collections. Okay, let's come back to 00:01:23.189 --> 00:01:26.926 your your life at A. S. U. In a in a little bit before that. I know you 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:32.027 had a very interesting childhood uh and you had a lot of other experiences 00:01:32.060 --> 00:01:35.867 before coming to A S. U. So let's start with that background. Where where 00:01:35.900 --> 00:01:40.117 were you born? Where did you go to school and all those great things that 00:01:40.150 --> 00:01:43.736 happened before I met you. I was born in kirkwood Illinois which probably 00:01:43.769 --> 00:01:47.417 nobody has ever heard of. But it's fairly close to Monmouth Illinois and 00:01:47.450 --> 00:01:50.906 which is close to Galesburg Illinois where you know Knox College. So you 00:01:50.939 --> 00:01:55.576 get the idea of where it was. And we lived in la harp and later uh 00:01:55.609 --> 00:02:01.417 Illinois and later in La Salle Illinois. And uh I went to school at our 00:02:01.450 --> 00:02:05.326 local high school Lasalle through high school and then I attended our 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:09.177 junior college, LPO Junior college, Lasalle through local speed Junior 00:02:09.210 --> 00:02:14.186 College for two years. And then I went on to Macmurray College in 00:02:14.219 --> 00:02:19.726 Jacksonville Illinois which was at that time an old girls school and uh 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:25.346 majored in english and then did graduate work at Northwestern University 00:02:25.379 --> 00:02:30.247 and at A. S. U. Okay, I know when you were in high school that you were 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:33.647 involved in a lot of activities, one of which was music. Would you like to 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:37.277 tell us a little bit about that? Yes. I always played, I played flute and 00:02:37.310 --> 00:02:42.726 piccolo and I always participated in grade school bands, high school bands 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:50.446 , college bands and orchestras and community orchestras. And uh it was 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:55.427 great fun. In fact I was I was greatly surprised to receive the music 00:02:55.460 --> 00:03:00.006 award for the outstanding Musical Musician award for the senior class in 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:04.096 my senior year. That's great. And I believe you also played in the youth 00:03:04.129 --> 00:03:10.207 symphony. Oh yes I did. I was I was surprised I was studying with a 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.797 professor of flute up in Chicago Illinois, we lived just 100 miles from 00:03:14.830 --> 00:03:19.897 there in Lasalle. And uh he urged me to try out for the Youth symphony 00:03:19.930 --> 00:03:24.816 there that in Chicago and I did try out and I was appointed principal 00:03:24.849 --> 00:03:30.356 flutist at the Chicago Youth Symphony for one year and we played concerts 00:03:30.389 --> 00:03:34.397 there in Chicago Orchestra hall and it was quite exciting. It would be 00:03:34.430 --> 00:03:38.747 exactly um and I believe you were a bit of a cook in your younger life as 00:03:38.780 --> 00:03:45.906 well. Yes, I've always liked to cook before. My mother was always worried 00:03:45.939 --> 00:03:50.876 that I wouldn't be a very good cook. She was an excellent cook. But um 00:03:50.909 --> 00:03:55.356 when we were first married, she was so worried that I hadn't done enough 00:03:55.389 --> 00:04:01.346 cooking that when I invited my parents and Dicks parents up for dinner, 00:04:01.379 --> 00:04:06.686 our first thanksgiving mother was tempted to bring a turkey in the car and 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:11.457 all the trimmings. She was afraid of being a failure and she was 00:04:11.490 --> 00:04:14.856 pleasantly surprised and she finally conceded, well if you can read you 00:04:14.889 --> 00:04:22.176 can cook and sew. But I was very fortunate. I I entered the Pillsbury bake 00:04:22.209 --> 00:04:28.967 off in 1962 and um it was one of the finalists with my cherry go rounds 00:04:29.000 --> 00:04:33.986 coffee cake. And it was so funny being in the library, they loved it when 00:04:34.019 --> 00:04:38.236 I was, I decided to enter a cooking contest because I would bring samples 00:04:38.269 --> 00:04:44.007 then I would ask for their comments and 11 of my colleagues mary Beecher 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:47.296 was well now Marilyn, I think that needs just a little more, I think you 00:04:47.329 --> 00:04:52.187 better try another version. So they would get lots of treats. But it was 00:04:52.220 --> 00:04:57.726 very, very fortunate to get to go to the first, uh, the first bake off was 00:04:57.759 --> 00:05:03.556 in new york and, and, and we stayed at the Waldorf Astoria and it was so 00:05:03.589 --> 00:05:11.176 nice. We, when we were wined and dined by Pillsbury, uh, we had, we could 00:05:11.209 --> 00:05:15.906 order whatever we wanted for breakfast or lunch if we weren't being served 00:05:15.939 --> 00:05:22.397 in a banquet style and just sign our name to the jacket. I remember that 00:05:22.430 --> 00:05:28.356 first breakfast at the Waldorf Astoria, I had some tea and a little pastry 00:05:28.389 --> 00:05:34.296 and um, A slice of melon and it was $4. Now at that time You could get a 00:05:34.329 --> 00:05:40.387 decent breakfast for $1 anyplace else? I thought, oh, what elegant. And my 00:05:40.420 --> 00:05:45.296 second experience was to go to the bake off again with my bacon and cheese 00:05:45.329 --> 00:05:50.496 puff pie. And that was in 1968 and that was in Dallas texas and art 00:05:50.529 --> 00:05:57.887 Linkletter was the emcee both times, which was interesting. And um, so did 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:01.806 you, did you appear in the breakfast club ever know? But when they 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:07.056 televised the bake off finals that year, they have us all sitting in court 00:06:07.089 --> 00:06:11.296 , the cameraman knows who's going to be the winner and all that. And so 00:06:11.329 --> 00:06:16.806 Art Linkletter was saying now, who had sour cream in there? I raised my 00:06:16.839 --> 00:06:24.839 hand, who had uh, tomatoes and I kept raising my hand and 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:30.757 who uh, and who had cheese in there and I kept raising my hand and then 00:06:30.790 --> 00:06:34.366 everyone said, uh, Dick said, when they were watching at home ever said, 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:38.187 oh Marilyn is going to be the winner? So they had the uh camera on both of 00:06:38.220 --> 00:06:43.187 us, the two and then there's who had oregano, my hand went down and my 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:51.220 partner to the lab was the winner. That was, but no, no, no no cigar, no 00:06:52.310 --> 00:06:57.246 money on that one. And then I also participated in a lot of local cooking 00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:01.027 contests. In fact, I have plans to my kitchen with different things, a 00:07:01.060 --> 00:07:05.817 couple of refrigerators and a barbecue and electric knife and blenders and 00:07:05.850 --> 00:07:09.226 food processors and that sort of thing. Those were the days when they gave 00:07:09.259 --> 00:07:12.837 all of that away and that's right. And now we know why everybody in the 00:07:12.870 --> 00:07:17.306 library liked you. So I 00:07:17.339 --> 00:07:24.387 believe you also had the opportunity to appear on television as a reporter. 00:07:24.420 --> 00:07:31.397 Uh they had this contest, they announced uh CBS if you would like to be a 00:07:31.430 --> 00:07:38.556 tele visitor reporter And each state had one. And uh so I entered and what 00:07:38.589 --> 00:07:44.106 we had to do was write a review of some of the CBS programs that were on. 00:07:44.139 --> 00:07:50.666 And so my review which I wrote was consider it was one of the 00:07:50.699 --> 00:07:55.986 semifinalists. And so I was called in sort of for an interview and then 00:07:56.019 --> 00:07:58.906 they 00:07:58.939 --> 00:08:03.767 then they had us uh take specific programs before it was any program we 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:08.856 wanted to, now they said do one soap opera and do something else, I don't 00:08:08.889 --> 00:08:13.616 remember, But we had to couple of reviews to. Right and so I ended up 00:08:13.649 --> 00:08:21.236 being the finalist and it was very interesting uh are we uh cbs they 00:08:21.269 --> 00:08:28.507 really treated us beautifully and we got to they flew us first to new york 00:08:28.540 --> 00:08:32.687 and uh we had this one reception with a lot of the stars at the time and 00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:39.096 we met Jack Benny and we met Gary cooper, not gary cooper, Jackie cooper. 00:08:39.129 --> 00:08:43.827 And that was when Dennis the Menace was on. A little bit of a guy who was 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:49.756 he was getting so tired in his, we couldn't go home and a lot a lot of the 00:08:49.789 --> 00:08:56.746 stars there and I had a very interesting experience when it was uh the 00:08:56.779 --> 00:09:02.287 fullest bar I've ever seen, you know just every you could imagine. And I 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:08.467 went over and I ordered my traditional ginger ale please. And this 00:09:08.500 --> 00:09:15.437 gentleman walked over and said I want to meet the woman who orders ginger 00:09:15.470 --> 00:09:22.457 ale. And I he uh and so I went over to his table, I had my ginger ale and 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:27.467 we started talking. It was uh mr Jameson who was one of the C. C. E. O. S. 00:09:27.500 --> 00:09:34.526 Of Cbs. And so we we chatted in the He was a contest or two. He liked to 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:38.217 participate. So we talked about how I entered the contest however and all 00:09:38.250 --> 00:09:42.807 that sort of thing. So then he said would you like to go out to dinner? 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:49.577 And I was very surprised And and I said okay. And so we went over to 00:09:49.610 --> 00:09:57.087 trader vics and had dinner. And he um about um, one of these uh coconut 00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:02.707 drinks in a coconut, which had a gardenia. And he uh gave the gardenia to 00:10:02.740 --> 00:10:08.447 me. And so I felt very flattered. He walked me back to the Waldorf Astoria. 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:14.557 And before um before we uh, I was going up to my room and all, he handed 00:10:14.590 --> 00:10:20.246 me his telephone card. This is, you know, telephone credit card. And he 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.376 said, uh, call your husband and tell him you're safe and everything is 00:10:24.409 --> 00:10:30.207 well, It wasn't very nice. Yeah. Real gentlemen. And this was in the late 00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:35.726 60s. Yes. And it must have been before there were many females on 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:42.396 television as with the news, is that correct? But what we did with with 00:10:42.429 --> 00:10:47.276 this uh, cBS thing we wrote, I had my byline in the newspaper in the 00:10:47.309 --> 00:10:51.057 Arizona Republic everyday column by Marilyn was burger and pie. We 00:10:51.090 --> 00:10:57.386 reported on what we did and the stars, the programs we were on and we they 00:10:57.419 --> 00:11:03.417 , they scanned the tele visitor group each day for each program. Now an 00:11:03.450 --> 00:11:08.577 interesting sideline I'm getting perhaps I hope to not to 00:11:08.610 --> 00:11:16.610 my father just prior to my winning the contest had had in a burst appendix 00:11:17.340 --> 00:11:23.567 And he was taken to the hospital and he was already 60 for almost 65 and 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:28.087 it was a very serious thing. And he was in the hospital and I asked mother 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:32.736 if I should fly home and she said no don't you, your dad, your dad don't 00:11:32.769 --> 00:11:38.976 think he's dying, you know this is not. And uh so interestingly enough 00:11:39.009 --> 00:11:45.876 they sent us some sheet of our parents is what they would be for for the 00:11:45.909 --> 00:11:49.496 week while we were tele visitors and we were going to be on each of these 00:11:49.529 --> 00:11:55.376 shows so dad could tune in the program and see his daughter on television 00:11:55.409 --> 00:12:00.496 every day of that week. And so he called in all the nurses, this is my 00:12:00.529 --> 00:12:06.457 daughter and they had a great time. Now these reviews uh you gave the 00:12:06.490 --> 00:12:09.976 reviews both early on television and then they were also printed in the 00:12:10.009 --> 00:12:17.636 paper just printed in the and Rudy Valli greeted us uh another one and I 00:12:17.669 --> 00:12:22.106 had a picture taken holding his book and I, my thumb stepped down and he 00:12:22.139 --> 00:12:29.646 said don't cover my name was very very very very indignant there. When you 00:12:29.679 --> 00:12:35.256 were done with the CBS program in new york I believe somehow you were 00:12:35.289 --> 00:12:39.427 transferred to Hollywood for a while. Yes we were we flew first class on 00:12:39.460 --> 00:12:44.236 the jet and it was delightful. Uh First class. It was the first time I'd 00:12:44.269 --> 00:12:48.386 ever flown first class. In fact I haven't flown all that many times at 00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:54.807 that time. Uh huh. And then we met more of the stars were greeted. We uh 00:12:54.840 --> 00:13:01.726 we went to see Jack Linkletter program and and Dennis O'keefe sent each of 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:08.217 us, each of us tele visitors, a carnation. And um it was uh you know we 00:13:08.250 --> 00:13:13.236 think kindly of him and he signed autographed all of our programs and and 00:13:13.269 --> 00:13:16.587 they made a big fuss over us. It was really nice. Well that was in the 00:13:16.620 --> 00:13:19.896 days when they were real gentlemen. 00:13:19.929 --> 00:13:26.157 That's right. We were um okay. You arrived in Arizona around 1960 I 00:13:26.190 --> 00:13:32.346 believe in 1957 1957. And but not to A. S. U. So what were you doing in 00:13:32.379 --> 00:13:38.016 that interim time? Well of that first year I got a teaching degree. Well I 00:13:38.049 --> 00:13:42.287 had my teaching degree from Illinois and taught uh I taught both high 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:46.687 school and elementary. And uh then when I went to apply for my certificate 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:52.907 here in Arizona I needed 22 hours of Illinois credential notwithstanding. 00:13:52.940 --> 00:13:57.917 And uh so I did it quick in order to even qualify to have my provisional 00:13:57.950 --> 00:14:03.106 certificate so I could teach that fall. We came in June of 57 00:14:03.139 --> 00:14:07.396 I was taking which was supposedly illegal at that time correspondence 00:14:07.429 --> 00:14:13.616 courses from N. Au correspondence course from uh University of Arizona. 00:14:13.649 --> 00:14:18.917 And taking a couple of courses at A. S. U. For the summer. And that got me 00:14:18.950 --> 00:14:22.587 through with at least my provisional in the following summer. I finished 00:14:22.620 --> 00:14:28.337 up the course is to have my full certificate. And uh so I taught a couple 00:14:28.370 --> 00:14:32.667 of years in Arizona. And then at that time my husband was with Motorola, 00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:38.287 that's how we got to Arizona in the first place. Uh the B-70 contract on 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:42.606 which he was working was canceled and Motorola was sort of in a downward 00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:47.976 mode and the engineers were practically going around picking up paper in 00:14:48.009 --> 00:14:52.516 this regard to have something to do a slight exaggeration. But Dick didn't 00:14:52.549 --> 00:14:56.297 like writing proposals and doing things like that and he had a chance to 00:14:56.330 --> 00:15:00.817 go to convert astronautics over SAn Diego. So we moved there and we were 00:15:00.850 --> 00:15:05.356 there for six months when Motorola called and said we've got to be 70 back 00:15:05.389 --> 00:15:10.407 again, the contract was reinstated, we'd like to have our engineers back 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:16.167 and uh we weren't all that charmed with SAn Diego unlike a lot of people. 00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.996 And so we came back to Arizona and we hadn't sold our house in the 00:15:21.029 --> 00:15:24.736 meantime it was just one of those things so it was waiting for us, we came 00:15:24.769 --> 00:15:30.606 back and uh so uh I had been taking 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:35.087 of course it's like all because I have my teaching certificate and all 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:39.797 teachers you know have to keep taking hours and so I had decided to take 00:15:39.830 --> 00:15:43.467 library science courses and because I was very interested in perhaps being 00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:50.717 a school library and uh so I had gotten my all the coursework um there was 00:15:50.750 --> 00:15:54.197 a period there when I wasn't working official, I was substituting and I 00:15:54.230 --> 00:15:58.827 was taking all of these courses and uh in library science. So I got my 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:04.096 teaching certificate and I was sort of looking for a job. And uh nothing 00:16:04.129 --> 00:16:07.366 seemed to be coming up in school librarians who happened to be one of 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:12.856 those years when funding is like always. And librarians are some of the 00:16:12.889 --> 00:16:17.407 first to go in schools right now. Now that degree was from or that those 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:22.396 courses were from A. S. You right if you had a library science, No I 00:16:22.429 --> 00:16:27.026 didn't. They didn't know they did not. All they had was this library 00:16:27.059 --> 00:16:32.606 technician program which was uh the 15 or so hours that you took in that 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:36.776 qualified you for a teaching library school certificate. Which is all that 00:16:36.809 --> 00:16:41.437 I had. Now is is that the same as the program they had later at a issue 00:16:41.470 --> 00:16:49.297 which which was uh libraries degree for teachers only. Um It was that 00:16:49.330 --> 00:16:54.726 that's what it was morphing into sort of. Okay yeah that's that's sort of 00:16:54.759 --> 00:17:01.077 what I took. And uh later on I wanted to finish the Master's in education 00:17:01.110 --> 00:17:06.756 um which they could only offer the minor in the library science stuff. And 00:17:06.789 --> 00:17:11.907 so I was finishing up with the education and I got all but the final 00:17:11.940 --> 00:17:16.836 thesis which I never did get for a reason which I could explain possibly 00:17:16.869 --> 00:17:24.806 everyone but uh dr Minky who was in charge of placement at a. S. U. I had 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:29.607 a long talk with him and I said what he said you know there's this 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:33.907 cataloging job at A. S. U. And you've had your cataloging courses And he 00:17:33.940 --> 00:17:40.246 said I'd I'd like to encourage you to apply for that. So I did. But 00:17:40.279 --> 00:17:46.607 several people have told me you don't want to work for Mr Bachelor. 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:50.637 Uh in the library. He was head of the library. Yes he was head of the 00:17:50.670 --> 00:17:56.476 library at that time. Harold Harold Harold Bachelor. That's right. But I 00:17:56.509 --> 00:18:01.756 uh so I went to interview with him and that interview was the strangest 00:18:01.789 --> 00:18:07.717 interview I ever had in my whole life. Um He talked to me about the 00:18:07.750 --> 00:18:12.526 courses I've had. He said that was all right okay all right. And then he 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:16.256 took me around and it happened to be that was when the library still 00:18:16.289 --> 00:18:22.107 worked on 39 hour weeks. So most everyone took their short day like on a 00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:26.447 thursday afternoon. And that was the day of my interview. So nobody was in 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:31.207 the library hardly they accept the staff running 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:34.917 circulation and that sort of thing. But no no technical service staff was 00:18:34.950 --> 00:18:38.476 there. And so he went around and introduced me to the desks and he said 00:18:38.509 --> 00:18:45.957 this is where this line this is Miss phillips. And and if I mentioned the 00:18:45.990 --> 00:18:51.157 staff it's all women and they were all retired pretty much retired 00:18:51.190 --> 00:18:56.236 librarians or the ones that really couldn't work anyplace else. And he 00:18:56.269 --> 00:19:01.707 delighted in having people that were older and could do exactly as he said. 00:19:01.740 --> 00:19:05.836 And finally as I as we were wrapping up the interview he said well I 00:19:05.869 --> 00:19:10.736 really don't like to hire you're kind of my kind 00:19:10.769 --> 00:19:15.506 and he said well you're the cadillac and mink coat crowd with and married. 00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:21.256 And I had neither cadillac nor I mean quote at that time and but he said 00:19:21.289 --> 00:19:26.756 um I do need to fill the line and you have very good qualifications. So 00:19:26.789 --> 00:19:33.226 the job is yours I okay. It had to be the strangest hiring in your career 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:40.586 as well. It really was. So when I started I was put under the supervision 00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:46.867 and revision of Miss morrigan and poor Miss morrigan she was she looked as 00:19:46.900 --> 00:19:54.516 as old as when God was born. She was very frail and she was she was a very 00:19:54.549 --> 00:19:58.526 good library and she had had excellent credentials and in her day had had 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:04.947 some very good jobs but she was and she was very frail and so I worked at 00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:10.526 a rather good speed I thought and her revision was very slow. She had to 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:15.637 make sure that I had every every you know no comma no period, no t 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:20.657 uncrossed no anything like that. And so here would be the pile of my work 00:20:20.690 --> 00:20:26.276 that I had done and here was by her desk to revise and here is her output 00:20:26.309 --> 00:20:34.056 of my well finally mr bachelor realized that this was not going to work 00:20:34.089 --> 00:20:39.816 too well. So um he assigned me to be under Mrs Moran. Now mrs morale was 00:20:39.849 --> 00:20:46.736 sort of a rebel. And he uh she when I started work in july and she was the 00:20:46.769 --> 00:20:52.006 wife of Dr Mariner in the education department, very respected gentleman. 00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:56.546 And they would travel to europe or somewhere anywhere for the summer and 00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:01.996 he would do his research and all of that sort of thing. And um so when MRS 00:21:02.029 --> 00:21:07.506 morale came back, she was assigned to me and and that was the best thing 00:21:07.539 --> 00:21:11.447 that could've ever happened. She was a brilliant woman, a marvelous 00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:17.647 catalog. She had been head of the library at ST louis university and of 00:21:17.680 --> 00:21:21.847 course she quit when she got married and came in with Wilbur Wilbur and 00:21:21.880 --> 00:21:28.286 all that. And uh so she I thought Mr Bachelor was so difficult to work 00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:34.447 with and she but she said Marilyn I'm going to help you. And she did, she 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:39.697 was uh what we had trained for in the library tech program was really 00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:44.476 school cataloging and so I had to learn a little bit of the niceties of 00:21:44.509 --> 00:21:50.006 cataloging for a university library and Marian. It was wonderful and when 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:53.986 I would do my work and she would revise my work and had all moved very 00:21:54.019 --> 00:21:59.556 slowly and and so she was the best mentor I could have ever ever ever had. 00:21:59.589 --> 00:22:04.816 Now Mr Bachelor was so funny when uh as as he acting as head of 00:22:04.849 --> 00:22:12.336 cataloging, he would he would give us our stuff to catalog and um and 00:22:12.369 --> 00:22:16.296 oftentimes he would put down the number that it was to be. So he was 00:22:16.329 --> 00:22:21.177 essentially almost doing our job. 00:22:21.210 --> 00:22:28.637 And occasionally we would have to disagree with. That was not a good scene. 00:22:28.670 --> 00:22:33.897 That was not a good thing. But when I was still in his good graces um he 00:22:33.930 --> 00:22:37.907 would come over and I said Mr Bachelor, could you explain why you chose 00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:41.766 this number instead of this? And he said oh that's a very good question, 00:22:41.799 --> 00:22:46.957 my dear friend and was very very nice about it. But he had gotten a little 00:22:46.990 --> 00:22:51.457 bit irritated with one of my other colleagues, Mrs Matchett. And she had 00:22:51.490 --> 00:22:55.117 just had not questioned him on it and she just went ahead and changed the 00:22:55.150 --> 00:22:59.326 number which was right. And he came back and took this and he said threw 00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:04.226 it down on the desk mrs matches. How dare you change my numbers. And so 00:23:04.259 --> 00:23:08.976 she left shortly after that. That was very unprofessional. I was sorry to 00:23:09.009 --> 00:23:13.947 leave you tell us a little bit about the old Matthews library. Some of us 00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:17.996 have been around long enough that we remember the the middle half the 00:23:18.029 --> 00:23:22.726 stairs and so on. When I first started cataloging was on the main floor as 00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:25.816 you entered the library. And then there were some double doors and 00:23:25.849 --> 00:23:30.036 cataloging room was behind that and our desk were all in a neat row and 00:23:30.069 --> 00:23:35.357 that sort of thing. But later as they began uh to remodel the library, 00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:41.326 they decided they couldn't spare that. Wonderful uh good space for 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:47.707 cataloging. So they moved us downstairs, the cataloging downstairs now. Um 00:23:47.740 --> 00:23:52.726 They made no provision or really no preparations, they just moved our 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:57.576 desks down there and squeezed them in and there was no adequate lighting 00:23:57.609 --> 00:24:02.086 at all. So each of us brought a lamp for our desk and it looked like a 00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:06.667 boudoir. We had all these little like bed lamps and bedroom lamps, all 00:24:06.700 --> 00:24:10.697 sorts of things. Not very few look like what you have in an office or 00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:15.097 anything, but they were more like came for your bedroom nightstand. And uh 00:24:15.130 --> 00:24:20.607 we were squished in this. And then the staff room, there was really, they 00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:24.187 had these cubbyholes like you could put stuff in like if you want to put 00:24:24.220 --> 00:24:28.266 your coffee cup in or something like that. Uh and and they were just full 00:24:28.299 --> 00:24:32.506 of cobwebs and all, they've never been cleaned out or anything. And the 00:24:32.539 --> 00:24:38.407 rooms down there were still dirty and they were it was awful, It really. 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:42.536 So we were working and I remember one day they finally decided that they 00:24:42.569 --> 00:24:48.546 were going to put new lighting and I was dressed nicely for work as I 00:24:48.579 --> 00:24:53.897 tried to do and I went I was going to my desk and uh there was a guy 00:24:53.930 --> 00:24:57.947 standing on my desk and there was all this plaster in town and he was 00:24:57.980 --> 00:25:02.336 putting up a light fixture and so I thought, well I can't work here. And 00:25:02.369 --> 00:25:06.556 so I went over to another desk that was empty. Somebody I knew he wasn't 00:25:06.589 --> 00:25:10.597 going to be there. And later MS russell mr Bachelor Secretary came over 00:25:10.630 --> 00:25:15.877 and said why aren't you sitting at your desk? And I said it's pretty and I 00:25:15.910 --> 00:25:21.276 was reprimanded for trying to sit in somebody else's death. Very very very 00:25:21.309 --> 00:25:26.407 strange. And um at that same time when we moved downstairs there was a 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:31.687 door that could be unlocked so that we could go from the downstairs to the 00:25:31.720 --> 00:25:37.796 upstairs. It was not a public access store but we could have had keys. But 00:25:37.829 --> 00:25:44.607 Mr Bachelor refused to allow that us to have access to that. So we had to 00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:49.296 come outdoors outside up the stairs at the side at that north side of the 00:25:49.329 --> 00:25:54.597 building and and in that north side door in to get the shelf list, our 00:25:54.630 --> 00:26:00.796 research books, everything that we needed to catalog. And uh and also 00:26:00.829 --> 00:26:05.016 there were no restrooms downstairs. So if you went to the restroom well on 00:26:05.049 --> 00:26:10.336 really cold rainy days there there was nothing but just go out and get wet 00:26:10.369 --> 00:26:16.006 sort of thing. It was just bizarre the way. And another time when we had 00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:21.677 been cataloging in the upstairs area before we moved downstairs it was so 00:26:21.710 --> 00:26:25.316 hot. Matthews had its own air conditioning and they didn't turn it on 00:26:25.349 --> 00:26:30.097 necessarily when the major rest of the air conditioning came on one day we 00:26:30.130 --> 00:26:34.847 all look like a bunch of wilted flowers. It was so hot in there and but we 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:39.967 had these clerestory windows and I said let's open the window and there 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.486 was no Marilyn you can't do that. Mr Bachelor wouldn't allow that. And I 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:49.546 got on my chair and opened up, I went down and opened the classroom and it 00:26:49.579 --> 00:26:53.857 was just like watering a flower garden or something and you could see 00:26:53.890 --> 00:26:58.597 people finally coming to life again. The breeze came in and the hot air 00:26:58.630 --> 00:27:04.256 was going on and we all began to do a rather profitable day's work. And at 00:27:04.289 --> 00:27:09.056 that time I had uh I had made some arrangement with Mr Bachelor that I 00:27:09.089 --> 00:27:12.377 would take a half hour and I could leave a half hour early because my 00:27:12.410 --> 00:27:17.816 husband and I shared the car and he went to work at 7 30 was out before 4 00:27:17.849 --> 00:27:23.877 30 so I could leave a little early. So Mr Bachelor waited until I left, he 00:27:23.910 --> 00:27:28.576 knew what had happened and then he came in and said who opened the windows 00:27:28.609 --> 00:27:34.677 and then so uh so I wasn't there to pull him out. And so the next morning 00:27:34.710 --> 00:27:41.326 we got a memo um if you uh you know we are we are not open the windows, 00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:45.056 it's a consideration. We can't let you in all this sort of thing. And if 00:27:45.089 --> 00:27:49.486 you are uncomfortable you must see something senior year or something like 00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:53.576 that but you're not to do anything like I had just done. But he wouldn't 00:27:53.609 --> 00:27:59.256 confront me personally at that time. So you were a bit of a rebel. I was I 00:27:59.289 --> 00:28:05.467 was considered a rebel. Yes, the kind that you don't hire you see you 00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:12.867 bring a whole new perspective on this guy. Oh 00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:19.697 he oh he got so upset with me. Um I 00:28:19.730 --> 00:28:22.947 shouldn't tell you this. But there was another one of my colleagues. We 00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:28.367 were so upset with Mr Bachelor and he was so he wanted he wanted he put 00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:33.986 down these older women all the time. I mean they were they were in uh and 00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:39.607 in fear of him, you know because they and he was so cruel to them. But he 00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:44.296 had one or two favorites and like Miss at and when I fell out of favor 00:28:44.329 --> 00:28:49.576 because I opened windows and I spoke up occasionally. And so he would go 00:28:49.609 --> 00:28:53.556 through and because he loved the cataloging, that sort of thing. Uh they 00:28:53.589 --> 00:28:57.907 would go back to the room with all the accumulation of on catalog stuff 00:28:57.940 --> 00:29:02.427 and this, Miss Sakhalin was one of his favorites. He was a real you know, 00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:07.326 she just did yes. Mr Bachelor, you know all 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:10.967 the time. And so he would say well what would you like to catalog and this 00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:15.137 that and so she would pick out this and then he'd pick out some and she'd 00:29:15.170 --> 00:29:19.476 say oh no that looks too hard. He said we'll give it to mrs worse burger. 00:29:19.509 --> 00:29:21.897 So 00:29:21.930 --> 00:29:25.766 I fell out of favor and got all the hard stuff. And this was when mary 00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:31.357 anne meara taught me how to catalog because you don't catalog some of 00:29:31.390 --> 00:29:34.256 these things that are really, you don't have any Library of Congress 00:29:34.289 --> 00:29:37.516 catalog to go by or anything like that and you have to come up with it 00:29:37.549 --> 00:29:42.996 yourself. And she taught me how to handle things that are Abound two parts 00:29:43.029 --> 00:29:49.197 together upside down. Does edo and that sort of thing. Mr Bachelor wasn't 00:29:49.230 --> 00:29:54.437 speaking to me when he was left and was transferred over to the education 00:29:54.470 --> 00:29:58.717 department and because he was put in the education department I knew he 00:29:58.750 --> 00:30:04.016 would have to be on my committee at the library science part to write my 00:30:04.049 --> 00:30:08.877 and I couldn't write it with him there. I knew that. So that's why that 00:30:08.910 --> 00:30:14.677 degree left was left unfinished and he didn't, by the time he left it was 00:30:14.710 --> 00:30:18.566 too late. I had I had to do all my hours over again and I chose not to do 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:23.347 that. Now at that time the SQL library catalog was still using the dewey 00:30:23.380 --> 00:30:26.897 decimal system. I believe. That's right. That's right. Um And I think you 00:30:26.930 --> 00:30:30.326 had something important to do with the change over to the Library of 00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:38.359 Congress. After uh when Mr Bachelor uh left he was transferred over to the 00:30:39.059 --> 00:30:43.457 education department to work with the library science of course is there. 00:30:43.490 --> 00:30:51.107 And we hired dr Covey in 1962 as the head librarian. And he uh 00:30:51.140 --> 00:30:56.127 I hired head of cataloging. Mr Bachelor. No no longer was head librarian, 00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:02.407 Head cataloger and Lord everything else as he tried to be micromanaging. 00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:07.986 Uh And uh so Miss Haskell and conferred with DR Covey and they decided 00:31:08.019 --> 00:31:12.677 that I should become the head of the new re classification department. 00:31:12.710 --> 00:31:17.897 Which was going from transferring from dewey decimal, The old dewey 00:31:17.930 --> 00:31:23.726 decimal to the new Library of Congress. Miss Haskell said you're I would 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:27.157 not normally give this to someone like you who doesn't have the degree but 00:31:27.190 --> 00:31:34.687 you're the only one left I think I could do it. So we had still so many of 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:39.927 these retiree, older librarian women that work. Yeah. Right. Well you you 00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:44.147 must have had to spend a lot of time relearning the Library of Congress. 00:31:44.180 --> 00:31:51.197 Yes we did. And uh this was a case where um mrs mara had during our 00:31:51.230 --> 00:31:57.296 tutorial while I was before we did the actually classification. She was 00:31:57.329 --> 00:32:03.117 showing me how we could study the Library of Congress classification 00:32:03.150 --> 00:32:08.217 system to give us insights sometimes in preparing a doing number. So I had 00:32:08.250 --> 00:32:13.016 learned a lot, there's the correlation and all that sort of thing. So 00:32:13.049 --> 00:32:16.736 there there were AIDS for the Library of Congress which she introduced me 00:32:16.769 --> 00:32:22.506 to which was a perfect segue from my doing reclassification. Yeah and she 00:32:22.539 --> 00:32:25.736 was always available because she was still there when I was in charge of 00:32:25.769 --> 00:32:30.217 reclassification to do some checking sometimes I want to change the 00:32:30.250 --> 00:32:34.437 subject for a little bit. Um, tell us what I asked you was like when you 00:32:34.470 --> 00:32:37.107 came here, 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:41.907 it was small and we could, we had, there was a parking lot right by the 00:32:41.940 --> 00:32:45.367 old Matthews library that we could pull in and I could pull in. You know, 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:48.967 you could pull in at two minutes of eight and not be late and it was not 00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:54.897 asked you university. No. Yes. Yes. It had just been started in 60 and 58 00:32:54.930 --> 00:33:00.006 was the university? Okay. So we were just growing into university status 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:05.296 And all and parking was still what they charged for horses. In the first, 00:33:05.329 --> 00:33:12.296 it was $5 for your horse when first started, it was still $5 for your car. 00:33:12.329 --> 00:33:19.306 Not anymore. Not anymore. So parking was a big, big bargain at that time. 00:33:19.339 --> 00:33:23.427 And you, you're during your tenure, you've seen a lot of presidents. 00:33:23.460 --> 00:33:29.617 Different presidents. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh We uh, and 00:33:29.650 --> 00:33:37.650 and one of the things the, oh, one of it was one of the um, strange 00:33:38.170 --> 00:33:44.726 happenstance is about my hiring. I was the last person hired without the 00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:50.576 full degree to be given professional library status because of my position 00:33:50.609 --> 00:33:55.086 as catalogers catalogers were considered professional, like reference, 00:33:55.119 --> 00:34:02.066 like brands and catalog and anybody else. Uh, um, so I was very surprised 00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:04.226 when 00:34:04.259 --> 00:34:08.597 they came around and said, well you're entitled to come to the faculty 00:34:08.630 --> 00:34:15.427 breakfast. That was one thing we I wasn't and there were a few of us. And 00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:20.336 and we didn't understand why some people got to go and some people didn't. 00:34:20.369 --> 00:34:24.867 And other people who had come to the library with every bit as good 00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:29.077 credentials as I, you know, like public school librarian ship credential, 00:34:29.110 --> 00:34:33.407 that sort of thing. They were not considered faculty because partly 00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:38.356 because of their position and all that. So I got faculty status from the 00:34:38.389 --> 00:34:42.356 beginning and we got to go to faculty meetings and that sort of thing. 00:34:42.389 --> 00:34:47.336 That was when um DR Covey came on, he insisted that we claim our faculty 00:34:47.369 --> 00:34:54.506 status and all that sort of thing. But when I first came, some talk was 00:34:54.539 --> 00:35:02.539 that, you know, And we were fewer than 12,000 Students when I game at 58. 00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:10.407 And they said, you know, someday a s you may have as many as 20,000. 00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:17.836 And that just sounded like and we were really a small small school really 00:35:17.869 --> 00:35:22.227 in so many ways. And we were not we hadn't grown into university status in 00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:25.807 the in the way that we are now 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:31.287 um do any of the presidents of the university during your tender tenure 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:39.320 stick out. Well, yeah, uh dr Durham was a real jewel. And of course we 00:35:40.369 --> 00:35:47.657 were still small when when Durham came. And uh under dr Covey's rule 00:35:47.690 --> 00:35:53.396 regime, we were able to start a staff association, which was mr Bachelor 00:35:53.429 --> 00:35:57.166 wouldn't have allowed anything like that. So the staff association tried 00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:03.467 to build up some camaraderie, we were really very uh not a very cohesive 00:36:03.500 --> 00:36:09.947 unit. Mr Bachelor was not one to foster camaraderie and fellowship and 00:36:09.980 --> 00:36:13.927 that sort of thing. So dr Covey felt that morale was low and we needed 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:19.597 that. So we started a staff association and uh we would have like uh 00:36:19.630 --> 00:36:24.546 christmas parties now, the holiday parties I would say. And uh 00:36:24.579 --> 00:36:28.646 occasionally meet, we would meet about every two or three months sometimes 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:33.276 and have a faculty member speak to us or we would have a potluck or 00:36:33.309 --> 00:36:38.316 something like that. And um our christmas party one year, we had it over 00:36:38.349 --> 00:36:45.387 in the emu and we had all uh staff people program, I played my flute and 00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:48.847 some other people played the piano and we had some vocals and and we 00:36:48.880 --> 00:36:55.867 invited President Durham and he came to our staff christmas party. Now you 00:36:55.900 --> 00:36:59.947 know this we thought this was fantastic and and he'd come and he said, I 00:36:59.980 --> 00:37:04.436 think it's so wonderful. The library is uh using their own talent getting 00:37:04.469 --> 00:37:08.407 acquainted, he just praised us for what we were doing. That was that was 00:37:08.440 --> 00:37:13.307 very nice. Um No other President, I don't think he ever accepted an 00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:19.287 invitation. We forgive it. But then President Swatter was interesting in 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.847 the fact that he was a supporter of our friends of the library, the 00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.577 library associates and he would attend those uh those meetings and we felt 00:37:27.610 --> 00:37:32.896 very honored that he would do that. And gradually, as the President's got 00:37:32.929 --> 00:37:39.197 busier and busier, they didn't come to our friends library things. And 00:37:39.230 --> 00:37:43.477 then you would witness the transition to the head library stacks. And 00:37:43.510 --> 00:37:49.847 after that, the uh under the nipple of knowledge, uh expansion of head 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:54.856 library, any particular stories about. Well, just just before the transfer 00:37:54.889 --> 00:38:01.086 , they had started putting books in uh uh storage there in hallways and 00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:04.697 all sorts of things and wouldn't let, well, people could go down there, 00:38:04.730 --> 00:38:08.936 but you almost needed a miner's lamp. We said if anybody was gonna show we 00:38:08.969 --> 00:38:11.916 should issue miner's lamp because you couldn't see a thing. If you didn't 00:38:11.949 --> 00:38:15.137 have a flashlight, you couldn't read this pond. It was terrible. It was 00:38:15.170 --> 00:38:19.677 dark, it was dank, it was, it was awful. But the transition, there are 00:38:19.710 --> 00:38:25.887 some pictures of us. Um almost every librarian wheeling a book truck and a 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:30.896 symbolic book truck over to Hayden library. But we didn't get to move all 00:38:30.929 --> 00:38:37.677 at one time as it was first planned. And so gradually the first floor, 00:38:37.710 --> 00:38:44.177 second floor, third floor, fourth floor uh finally uh took over. So it was 00:38:44.210 --> 00:38:48.827 , I felt sorry for the poor shape pagers shelters, that sort of thing 00:38:48.860 --> 00:38:52.336 because sometimes the book would be requested and it was right in 00:38:52.369 --> 00:38:56.117 transition. And so they'd run back and forth to try to find where, where 00:38:56.150 --> 00:39:02.546 the book was to find out. Uh And uh we had some dedicated library 00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:08.327 personnel Betty glover and her assistance was in charge of the catalog and 00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:13.537 she wanted it to be ready while when we've really opened up finally, for 00:39:13.570 --> 00:39:19.126 the first business. And so she and her staff went over and working in the 00:39:19.159 --> 00:39:24.467 lobby of Hayden Library where the shelf list was ultimately set up. Uh 00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:29.086 There were paint fumes from, you know, the carpets and and and all the 00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.537 finishing of the wood and this and that and the other thing. And there was 00:39:32.570 --> 00:39:36.896 no a C at all, no air conditioning. They sat over there and they were just 00:39:36.929 --> 00:39:41.477 drenched in sweat. Some days getting that catalog filed and ready to go. 00:39:41.510 --> 00:39:47.017 It was dedication beyond the call of duty, certainly. And you didn't 00:39:47.050 --> 00:39:52.986 experience anything like that as they did the Underground edition. 00:39:53.019 --> 00:39:58.336 Not so much, no. Uh that that was quite an experience to and there was 00:39:58.369 --> 00:40:03.927 talk about putting the special collections in the underground edition at 00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:09.787 one time and uh editing who was in charge of Arizona at that time. And I 00:40:09.820 --> 00:40:13.967 we said no, we don't want to be underground. Uh and we were very glad 00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:20.546 because they had more than one leak and uh some Stewart backup and various 00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:24.217 things like that that happened downstairs. It was it wasn't good for 00:40:24.250 --> 00:40:29.177 anything, but certainly not, especially. No, no. So we were glad we stood 00:40:29.210 --> 00:40:34.077 our ground now all the time that that I knew you because I came after that 00:40:34.110 --> 00:40:39.756 time. You were in special collections. So how did you segue from re 00:40:39.789 --> 00:40:44.876 classification to special collections? Well there was an interesting story. 00:40:44.909 --> 00:40:49.876 Um I saw reclassification was sort of winding down. We had a different 00:40:49.909 --> 00:40:53.796 library in. His support for reclassification was dwindling. I could tell 00:40:53.829 --> 00:40:57.617 that. And I said I think I went out, our re classification department had 00:40:57.650 --> 00:41:01.526 gone from two of us until about 18. There was a lot of people, we had a 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:04.956 lot of students pulling cards and the staff. I thought I didn't really 00:41:04.989 --> 00:41:08.617 want this so much. So I'd like to go back and I said to Miss Haskell, I'd 00:41:08.650 --> 00:41:12.327 like to go back just being literature cataloger. And she appointed mary 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:16.416 Swati who was the literature catalog very in charge of the finish up the 00:41:16.449 --> 00:41:22.267 reclassification. So that was perfect. And uh then uh Mr Dopkin, who was 00:41:22.300 --> 00:41:27.677 the associate university librarian at that time, approached me and said 00:41:27.710 --> 00:41:30.876 this does not sound very humble but he said Marilyn, I think you're the 00:41:30.909 --> 00:41:34.626 best cataloger here, which is very flattering. He said I think you're the 00:41:34.659 --> 00:41:38.967 one that should be doing classifying the rare books because they take a 00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:44.747 special talent. And he said I'll I want to show you how to do that. So he 00:41:44.780 --> 00:41:49.756 began giving me a private tutorial on rare book cataloging. And he would 00:41:49.789 --> 00:41:53.217 come over, he was he should have stayed with rare books. That was his 00:41:53.250 --> 00:41:57.376 forte. He had been a rare books library but chose administration and he 00:41:57.409 --> 00:42:03.416 would get frustrated with administration and so oftentimes at the end of 00:42:03.449 --> 00:42:06.267 the day and maybe four o'clock in the afternoon he'd come over and he'd 00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:09.836 say Marilyn we're going to have a rare books lesson. And and he would he 00:42:09.869 --> 00:42:14.916 would show me about bindings of different points of these books and all 00:42:14.949 --> 00:42:19.887 that sort of thing. And we were having so much fun, I was having so much 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:27.920 fun. Miss Haskell. It was not happy. Exactly. She and one day uh she 00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:34.186 called me into her office and she said um Marilyn if you're you're too 00:42:34.219 --> 00:42:40.907 happy and if you don't cool it I'm going to have to move your desk. You 00:42:40.940 --> 00:42:44.677 she said you greet us like we're all a bunch of fourth graders or 00:42:44.710 --> 00:42:49.506 something with you. That was the first time I'd ever been told that I was 00:42:49.539 --> 00:42:54.117 too happy. Um And of course I think part of it I was having so much fun 00:42:54.150 --> 00:42:59.267 with learning these new things with Mr Dopkin. And so uh Mr Dopkin 00:42:59.300 --> 00:43:03.896 realized what was going on finally and um so he said Marilyn I'm going to 00:43:03.929 --> 00:43:07.236 move your desk up to special collections and since you're doing most of 00:43:07.269 --> 00:43:11.986 the rare book cataloging. Uh So they moved my desk back into the stacks, 00:43:12.019 --> 00:43:14.936 not in the main reading room or anything like that, but back in the stacks. 00:43:14.969 --> 00:43:19.997 And uh so I had and he said this is good the security of the books, it's 00:43:20.030 --> 00:43:25.046 a better better location. And he said you could then pinch help out in the 00:43:25.079 --> 00:43:28.447 front desk and you can sort of learn what people are looking for. It may 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:33.126 help you in your cataloging points, that sort of thing. So there was there 00:43:33.159 --> 00:43:37.396 was a special room for for special collections, it was separate but it was 00:43:37.429 --> 00:43:41.456 the sacks now was that in Matthew's library? No this was in the new Hayden 00:43:41.489 --> 00:43:49.137 library. Uh And in um uh huh. Two years before my move up there in 71 00:43:49.170 --> 00:43:57.037 actually he moved my desk up. Um They had done a doctor Oscar Taney had I 00:43:57.070 --> 00:44:03.807 decided they had friends of the library they had established when of 00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:09.236 Hayden Library was built and Great Katie Katie Gammage was instrumental in 00:44:09.269 --> 00:44:12.997 forming the friends of the library. And Dr. Taney who was in the friends 00:44:13.030 --> 00:44:19.447 gave $35,000 to remake the room for special collections remodel. Well that 00:44:19.480 --> 00:44:25.506 wasn't enough. It was took about twice that. So the room by university 00:44:25.539 --> 00:44:30.227 rules couldn't be named the tiny room one of those technicalities, which 00:44:30.260 --> 00:44:35.177 is unfortunate unfortunately, but it was a lovely room in on the on the it 00:44:35.210 --> 00:44:39.137 was called the second floor at one time, third became the third floor when 00:44:39.170 --> 00:44:43.796 they started counting the bottom floor is number one. Uh And um it was 00:44:43.829 --> 00:44:49.077 lovely with in the library uh Library Associates furnished it with teak 00:44:49.110 --> 00:44:54.267 furniture, lovely custom made teak furniture and card catalog furnishing. 00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:59.767 It was a lovely room. And um so I got to move up in the stacks of that. 00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:05.276 And so then uh Mr Dobson could come up anytime he wanted to and we could 00:45:05.309 --> 00:45:09.876 have fun. And he is part of his tutorial. He said no you'll never be head 00:45:09.909 --> 00:45:14.577 of special collections because I didn't have the full degree. He said but 00:45:14.610 --> 00:45:17.907 he said I'm going to show you how to be a real special collections 00:45:17.940 --> 00:45:23.396 librarian. And so he would bring up catalogs of rare books. And he would 00:45:23.429 --> 00:45:28.956 um say he would give me an assignment and he said okay tell me you have 00:45:28.989 --> 00:45:33.887 You have $1,000 to spend. Uh tell me what you would choose. And so we 00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:40.497 would go over then a few days later and that's a good choice. That's a 00:45:40.530 --> 00:45:45.506 good choice. Why didn't you choose that? I don't think I'd choose that 00:45:45.539 --> 00:45:50.467 with this available that sort of thing. I'd wait for that. And so I got a 00:45:50.500 --> 00:45:54.597 real field because and we were working it wasn't in an abstract way we 00:45:54.630 --> 00:45:59.447 were working with the collection that was there already supplements. 00:45:59.480 --> 00:46:03.456 That's right. What would supplement. And he was teaching me on how to 00:46:03.489 --> 00:46:07.686 evaluate what we had what what what were some what we should have on the 00:46:07.719 --> 00:46:12.626 want list, what we should be searching for, what we should reject that 00:46:12.659 --> 00:46:19.776 sort of thing. Sometimes I would get uh would influenced by some pretty 00:46:19.809 --> 00:46:24.836 little books, you know some things that you do. But this is so and he 00:46:24.869 --> 00:46:27.977 would say you know we can't can't just get a pretty little book just 00:46:28.010 --> 00:46:31.967 because it's a pretty addition doesn't mean it's significant for a scholar 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:37.566 or meaningful in any way. And then we got in because I was still doing the 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:42.776 cataloging uh doing description of bindings. How do I know? How do I know 00:46:42.809 --> 00:46:47.907 what's in Morocco? What's a full caf? What's pink skin, What's all these 00:46:47.940 --> 00:46:52.807 sorts of things? So we went through that Uh two as we get new books. And 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:57.546 he did a lot of the ordering for special collections too because he he was 00:46:57.579 --> 00:47:01.546 knowledgeable much more so than the special collections library. And it 00:47:01.579 --> 00:47:06.287 was there he had been sort of put in the place without all that training a 00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:13.436 lot much training and all. So uh unfortunately Mr Dopkin 00:47:13.469 --> 00:47:15.747 contracted 00:47:15.780 --> 00:47:20.646 hepatitis and it was just a very very very severe case. And the doctor 00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:24.727 said you shouldn't you won't be working for six months or so. So he 00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:29.227 resigned and went to be with family where he could be sort of looked after 00:47:29.260 --> 00:47:35.066 leaving the the easy life. And just about that time just prior to that we 00:47:35.099 --> 00:47:43.099 had gotten a new librarian. Dr Donald kept. And um so um dr kept kept when 00:47:44.980 --> 00:47:50.847 Mr johnson left. The doctor kept agreed to appoint me with jay's 00:47:50.880 --> 00:47:56.597 authorization. J. Dawkins authorization. Uh make me acting head. And he 00:47:56.630 --> 00:48:00.887 said you'll be looking you know they'll be looking for a job. Well doctor 00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:05.956 kept when he came said and with Mr. Dobkin leaving and all he said I need 00:48:05.989 --> 00:48:09.356 to evaluate what's going on here. And I've got a lot of things the whole 00:48:09.389 --> 00:48:13.586 library staffing situation. So he said I hope you don't mind acting for a 00:48:13.619 --> 00:48:19.287 while. And I said no that's fine. Well about a year later I finally asked 00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:25.736 Dr kept, I said excuse me sir, are you ever going to uh make an 00:48:25.769 --> 00:48:30.736 appointment final appointment of hiring from my position? And he looked at 00:48:30.769 --> 00:48:35.137 me and he said oh he said you've been doing such a good job of acting. I 00:48:35.170 --> 00:48:41.807 sort of forgot it wasn't filled. So he was he said I'll do something about 00:48:41.840 --> 00:48:47.907 that. Uh So uh within a week or so he had issued he said I'm going to have 00:48:47.940 --> 00:48:53.367 to I'm going to have to advertise for this. So he issued um job 00:48:53.400 --> 00:48:58.927 description and uh he was very kind. He did not include the requirement 00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:04.606 for the masters, the mls a lot of experience along the lines I had had it 00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:11.037 , the job description fit me pretty well. I'm surprised. 00:49:11.070 --> 00:49:15.836 And uh so when 00:49:15.869 --> 00:49:21.617 a few weeks later after all that he said he did uh advertised in the state 00:49:21.650 --> 00:49:26.427 , he didn't advertise nationally but he did and sent notices to all spins 00:49:26.460 --> 00:49:31.157 around. And he got four applications and he called me into his office and 00:49:31.190 --> 00:49:37.137 um and said I have four applicants for this job. And he said but I think 00:49:37.170 --> 00:49:40.967 you're the best one for it? And he said are you still interested? And I 00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:47.166 said yes and so he said all right it's yours and the date was april 1st. 00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:51.697 So you went home a little bit worried after that. I didn't think Doctor 00:49:51.730 --> 00:49:57.727 kept we're doing it was funny uh when dr kept left later on I told him the 00:49:57.760 --> 00:50:01.327 story about how it was april 1st and I always wondered if another shoe was 00:50:01.360 --> 00:50:04.936 gonna drop. And he laughed and laughed and said it never even entered his 00:50:04.969 --> 00:50:10.157 mind that it was april 1st or anything like that. So uh from then on I was 00:50:10.190 --> 00:50:13.736 special collections librarian for over 30 years. And I think that's how 00:50:13.769 --> 00:50:18.026 everybody knows you write for the most part. You also did a little work 00:50:18.059 --> 00:50:22.387 with the preservation department. Yes I did. When our preservation 00:50:22.420 --> 00:50:28.356 librarian left uh went to a better position, the position wasn't filled. 00:50:28.389 --> 00:50:32.967 And Sherri Schmidt who was our librarian at that time, I didn't want to 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:37.407 fill it right away. She wanted to look around and all. And so she asked me 00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:42.747 to fill in and b acting head of that. So I was doing special collections 00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:50.407 and Preservation. And uh so that went on for nearly a year I think. Uh But 00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:55.606 finally they got things around. So they had a preservation person. Not not 00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:59.497 a full of pres preservation person but someone who could act in that 00:50:59.530 --> 00:51:04.427 position, so I didn't have to do that for longer than a year, What do you 00:51:04.460 --> 00:51:08.247 remember most about your career? That is true. Is there any particular 00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:12.606 event or person who stands out? You know what if you have 48 years? 00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:19.646 There's a lot, there's a lot that that's interesting of, one of the things 00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:27.427 that was really fun I had recommended to doctor kept um because of our 00:51:27.460 --> 00:51:33.427 strong collection of the pre Raphaelite brotherhood materials. And that 00:51:33.460 --> 00:51:39.046 was due in part to Professor Nick Salerno, who had been a great library, 00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:45.747 who was is still a library supporter. Uh And and at his encouragement as 00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:50.186 well that it would be wonderful if we could acquire a film scott press 00:51:50.219 --> 00:51:56.057 collection. The complete printings of William Morris printer and all. Um 00:51:56.090 --> 00:52:03.157 so, um I heard about this collection of uh Arnold Horwich who taught part 00:52:03.190 --> 00:52:09.186 time at the at issue had this collection of kelme scott, a complete, 00:52:09.219 --> 00:52:15.227 almost complete collection, and he was going to sell it. And uh I think 00:52:15.260 --> 00:52:19.586 Nick told us, he said he would like to sell it, but at that time the 00:52:19.619 --> 00:52:25.347 Japanese were so being so uh they were buying up America, you know, we 00:52:25.380 --> 00:52:29.217 felt like and and he said he had some interest from the Japanese didn't 00:52:29.250 --> 00:52:34.137 want his collection to go over to Japan. And uh so I talked to dr kevin 00:52:34.170 --> 00:52:38.017 and I said, I think this would be really a star in our crown to have this 00:52:38.050 --> 00:52:43.186 collection. And he agreed. And he said, well look around and he said, we 00:52:43.219 --> 00:52:48.287 don't, I don't have that kind of money just that we could use for it. So 00:52:48.320 --> 00:52:52.756 um he looked around, do you remember how much it was involved, you know, 00:52:52.789 --> 00:53:00.126 I'm sorry, I've forgotten right this minute. Um but it it was quite a bit 00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:04.117 of money, it seemed like it was about like 50,000 or something like that 00:53:04.150 --> 00:53:10.006 and which was really a good bye. I mean Mr Koepp had doctor kept had me um 00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:15.407 going through book prices and checking in to see if the price seemed right. 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:22.517 And it it did seem very, very favorable. And so uh we did have uh some 00:53:22.550 --> 00:53:26.517 alumni funds and friends of the library contributed a little bit and he 00:53:26.550 --> 00:53:34.367 contributed and we toppled it all together. And I remember the day uh It 00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:38.767 just decided I would go up and pick it up. And so I took my assistant and 00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:42.706 here I was carrying along around these $50,000 worth of books in my car. 00:53:42.739 --> 00:53:47.037 And I thought that in her, which was living in Scottsdale and that drive 00:53:47.070 --> 00:53:52.666 from Scottsdale to Tempe seemed very, very long, I was so worried if 00:53:52.699 --> 00:53:58.327 something would happen. But uh and that really did become one of our stars 00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:05.256 in our collecting crown. And because Horwitz had a lot of things that were 00:54:05.289 --> 00:54:11.146 unusual, like um some proof pages from the press and a couple of very 00:54:11.179 --> 00:54:14.477 special editions. The only thing we didn't he didn't want to sell was the 00:54:14.510 --> 00:54:19.706 chaucer which was the crown of the collection and the chaucer we were able 00:54:19.739 --> 00:54:24.876 to acquire later to uh but for a long and then I was able to get effect 00:54:24.909 --> 00:54:30.126 simile of the poem chaucer which was printed by the bacillus press, which 00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:34.477 was another press we were collecting another good donor. Page fails 00:54:34.510 --> 00:54:39.407 decided you know why don't we wait? And by something like the calm scott 00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:45.217 press when you know uh not 100 years but close to 100 years after it's 00:54:45.250 --> 00:54:50.316 been published when we could be buying from uh printers at the time that 00:54:50.349 --> 00:54:55.836 they're printing. And so she was a wonderful benefactor and I introduced 00:54:55.869 --> 00:55:01.276 her to the bacillus press which is a small new press. And she bought all 00:55:01.309 --> 00:55:07.037 eight books that the uh bacillus press printed. And it was interesting I 00:55:07.070 --> 00:55:13.456 sort of digress here. Um Charlene gary was the publisher in London and she 00:55:13.489 --> 00:55:18.557 came on in the U. S. To visit to sell her books and promote them and that 00:55:18.590 --> 00:55:24.486 sort of thing. And uh so I invited her to visit a issue and page fails had 00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:30.206 Charlene and me over to her home and we talked about the books and uh then 00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:35.577 later I was able to visit Charlene in London. Uh and we had this wonderful 00:55:35.610 --> 00:55:41.887 bond between publisher donor and recipient here over a period of years. 00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:48.376 and paige died before the last book of kiln scott of the bacillus press 00:55:48.409 --> 00:55:52.956 was printed. And so the friends of the library bought the very last book 00:55:52.989 --> 00:55:58.077 in memory and honor of page failed. So we had a complete bacillus press 00:55:58.110 --> 00:56:05.066 and it was interesting uh that uh uh paige died and then Charlene died. 00:56:05.099 --> 00:56:11.267 She was younger than I am. And uh just after the completion of her final. 00:56:11.300 --> 00:56:16.756 Yes. Yes. What what are some of the other memorable collections that that 00:56:16.789 --> 00:56:22.947 you were sort of responsible for bringing to? Well I think probably if I 00:56:22.980 --> 00:56:27.336 will ever have a star in my celestial crown as a result of library would 00:56:27.369 --> 00:56:34.017 be the patent collection. And Duncan Patton, who was a biology professor 00:56:34.050 --> 00:56:38.606 here at A. S. U. Uh came to me and he said Marilyn, would you be 00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:45.597 interested in a biology collection? And I said sure of course tell me more. 00:56:45.630 --> 00:56:53.630 And so uh he brought me a list of and it was his mother's and father's 00:56:53.679 --> 00:56:59.867 collection. His mother um was failing very much and but she wanted to see 00:56:59.900 --> 00:57:06.347 the collection um kept in total total and she she and her husband had 00:57:06.380 --> 00:57:09.756 collected it over a period of a number of years and they had started 00:57:09.789 --> 00:57:16.896 collecting right after the war. And her husband, Mr Patten Duncan's father 00:57:16.929 --> 00:57:23.256 had business overseas. So he was able to scout for books after the war. 00:57:23.289 --> 00:57:28.197 And many of them were great bargains. They wanted they wanted money, they 00:57:28.230 --> 00:57:33.166 had to get rid of their books. And so he bought some of these fabulous uh 00:57:33.199 --> 00:57:37.986 incan abdullah books printed in the cradle of printing before 1500. There 00:57:38.019 --> 00:57:43.927 were three in Canal Bulus in that collection. And uh many first editions 00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:51.537 of early herbals, gardening books 150 books in all. And uh they had moved 00:57:51.570 --> 00:57:56.477 , the patent family had moved from their michigan home and then retired in 00:57:56.510 --> 00:58:03.137 Wyoming. And so Mrs fails had near Yellowstone and Mrs fails had offered 00:58:03.170 --> 00:58:07.677 the collection to the University of Wyoming. And they said fortunately and 00:58:07.710 --> 00:58:11.727 they were honest, they said well this is not really one of our strengths 00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:16.347 interests and all. We would probably keep it for the mandatory three years 00:58:16.380 --> 00:58:22.307 or so and then disperse it and sell it for what we really need. That was 00:58:22.340 --> 00:58:26.477 that was that was not, that was not what she wanted to hear. And so Duncan 00:58:26.510 --> 00:58:31.916 was looking around. Um and unfortunately because miss, her mother was 00:58:31.949 --> 00:58:36.407 failing, his father was passed already passed away. Um The family sort of 00:58:36.440 --> 00:58:39.747 was wondering if they should maybe disperse the collection and split the 00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:46.936 profits. And Duncan said write me a letter, tell me why, why you why it 00:58:46.969 --> 00:58:50.847 would work here at a S. U. Why you would like to have it. And so I worked 00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:56.486 on that letter for quite a while and when I checked our holdings at a S. U. 00:58:56.519 --> 00:59:02.517 We only had 22 and two thirds volumes, we had two volumes of what they 00:59:02.550 --> 00:59:08.537 had a three volume set in one uh duplicate of one edition of the Gerard's 00:59:08.570 --> 00:59:15.896 Herbal and one other volume. But 147 volumes were not duplicates. And uh I 00:59:15.929 --> 00:59:21.566 told him about well just why I thought it would be perfect here with 00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:26.646 Duncan as head of the Biology Department and Research. It was a perfect 00:59:26.679 --> 00:59:33.557 way to memorialize their name. And we I had no no concept of what this 00:59:33.590 --> 00:59:39.407 collection would be worth And um but anyhow we insured it for about 00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:45.876 $400,000 when it was being shipped here And when the appraisal came in it 00:59:45.909 --> 00:59:49.086 was over $1 million. 00:59:49.119 --> 00:59:53.717 You can see why the family wanted. They didn't have any idea either. But 00:59:53.750 --> 00:59:59.836 uh what we did uh we did make a fuss over it a little bit and this was 00:59:59.869 --> 01:00:05.307 justified and very necessary. I thought um Cherie, in her wisdom, cheri 01:00:05.340 --> 01:00:10.727 smith, the librarian uh said we must have a celebration a reception and 01:00:10.760 --> 01:00:17.816 honor. So um we created a beautiful exhibit of all of these, the 01:00:17.849 --> 01:00:22.367 benchmarks, the land really the finest books in the collection. And then 01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:29.577 Sherry uh decided she wanted a catalog of the exhibit. 01:00:29.610 --> 01:00:37.610 And um she was first going to have um don dial her colleague in texas and 01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:42.657 I was supposed to do the reason a lot of the research for him. And then he 01:00:42.690 --> 01:00:50.267 was going to edit it and final iser. And I asked him, I said well I'd like 01:00:50.300 --> 01:00:56.206 to know. I said um how what I'm doing the research I'm doing if it's what 01:00:56.239 --> 01:00:59.447 you want, how you want it and all that sort of stuff. Oh don't worry about 01:00:59.480 --> 01:01:04.546 it. Just send me your information. I said and I finally uh told Sherry I 01:01:04.579 --> 01:01:08.827 said I don't think I like working this way. I don't know whether I'm doing 01:01:08.860 --> 01:01:12.796 the right thing. I said I'm very uncomfortable with this. And she finally 01:01:12.829 --> 01:01:17.506 had a talk with don dial and she began to worry because the deadline was 01:01:17.539 --> 01:01:23.077 getting closer and closer. I had had no feedback. And finally she said 01:01:23.110 --> 01:01:28.887 well Marilyn I guess you're going to have to do it okay. I had three weeks 01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:36.146 to do a catalog. I have never retarded my whole life. And uh what uh and 01:01:36.179 --> 01:01:40.637 then they wanted the photographer because this was not digital photography 01:01:40.670 --> 01:01:45.927 and all the easy things to do this uh to choose the um illustrations 01:01:45.960 --> 01:01:51.316 before I even had knew what were the high points of the books and all. And 01:01:51.349 --> 01:01:58.606 so I counted out how many so I selected illustrations and uh fortunately 01:01:58.639 --> 01:02:04.247 some of my colleagues Diane moore who was our by biology uh science one of 01:02:04.280 --> 01:02:08.807 our science librarians. She and I have been very good friends. She uh and 01:02:08.840 --> 01:02:13.847 she helped me do some of the research on some of the things. And I had a 01:02:13.880 --> 01:02:20.727 volunteer who had her mls and a PhD in english. And she helped me do some 01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:26.197 proof reading and also gathering some facts. And I had typists who were 01:02:26.230 --> 01:02:33.427 willing to type and and all and we pulled it all together. And um it uh 01:02:33.460 --> 01:02:38.066 and I was amazed this one picture. I just loved this one photograph and I 01:02:38.099 --> 01:02:44.026 didn't even know what it was. But uh and I had found this fact about the 01:02:44.059 --> 01:02:49.017 past flower, how it had been written. How this was one of the interesting 01:02:49.050 --> 01:02:53.597 illustrations that it was named in the herbal. And he had a whole and so 01:02:53.630 --> 01:02:57.077 it was and I learned this was the past flower. This is what I had written 01:02:57.110 --> 01:03:03.077 about, why the two came together miraculously my guardian angel was really 01:03:03.110 --> 01:03:09.267 working closely with me and on that. So we had the catalog and the catalog 01:03:09.300 --> 01:03:15.057 received, you can send in catalogs to L. A. For revision, you know, 01:03:15.090 --> 01:03:19.657 judging and all that. It was not a winner. But it was judged as one of the 01:03:19.690 --> 01:03:24.617 good very good catalog. And that's always evidenced by the fact that some 01:03:24.650 --> 01:03:29.387 of my colleagues did order copies of the catalog for their collection. And 01:03:29.420 --> 01:03:37.097 then we talked about my being in charge of uh preservation for awhile. Uh 01:03:37.130 --> 01:03:42.497 an extra stipend that went along with that. Finally. And so what I did 01:03:42.530 --> 01:03:47.427 that stipend, I wasn't counting on it at all. So um I had this former 01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:51.896 assistant who helped me in special collections for a number of years. She 01:03:51.929 --> 01:03:59.367 had gone on to work with intel and cutting edge computer design program 01:03:59.400 --> 01:04:03.747 design and all of that sort of stuff. And so I talked to Gail and I said 01:04:03.780 --> 01:04:07.856 it would be wonderful if we could get a full catalog because we had only 01:04:07.889 --> 01:04:11.936 36 in the catalog. And there were 100 and 50 books if we could get a full 01:04:11.969 --> 01:04:19.969 catalog. And um and put it online. And Gail was always cutting edge sort 01:04:20.050 --> 01:04:25.057 of thing. And in fact, so we worked and we got an illustration or two, 01:04:25.090 --> 01:04:28.997 sometimes even three. She and I couldn't decide which ones. He said, well 01:04:29.030 --> 01:04:36.456 let's put them all in of uh every one of the patent books. And uh then she 01:04:36.489 --> 01:04:40.847 designed this program which it had to be stand alone. It was too far 01:04:40.880 --> 01:04:45.767 advanced to be incorporated into the library's catalog at that time. And 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:53.227 it was the first um program to incorporate a video. She we had done a 01:04:53.260 --> 01:04:58.486 video clip interview of Duncan Patton. And so she took one minute clip 01:04:58.519 --> 01:05:01.977 from that and put it in the program getting you can see Duncan patent 01:05:02.010 --> 01:05:05.717 talking about the collection that was unheard of at that time. Of course. 01:05:05.750 --> 01:05:10.387 Now is that still available online? It's still online and it has now 01:05:10.420 --> 01:05:15.197 incorporated as part of the library catalog. So you will you can click the 01:05:15.230 --> 01:05:21.037 various programs, catalogs and catalog. And of course the illustrations 01:05:21.070 --> 01:05:27.197 could be in color which we didn't do in our catalog. And um and that 01:05:27.230 --> 01:05:33.456 program was judged as one of the outstanding herbal um reference online 01:05:33.489 --> 01:05:38.447 sources. And there's a little note on the on the program. Now we we have 01:05:38.480 --> 01:05:43.736 uh the library incorporated that quote. There are a lot of other unique 01:05:43.769 --> 01:05:49.017 collections in their science fiction, film theater. Yes, Yes. And uh oh 01:05:49.050 --> 01:05:53.177 there's so many donors that I have so much to be grateful for and and I 01:05:53.210 --> 01:05:58.066 don't want to forget uh Doctor Nicholas Salerno who has been, he has been 01:05:58.099 --> 01:06:03.247 a mainstay of the library. First of all, he was wonderful too, advise 01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:08.126 library specialists about what was good and what he needed for his 01:06:08.159 --> 01:06:11.586 teaching courses. And of course he always had far more requests than the 01:06:11.619 --> 01:06:16.816 library. Goodbye. But interestingly enough when the library wouldn't buy 01:06:16.849 --> 01:06:23.836 it, nick often would. And so and then uh as he's as he retired and all, he 01:06:23.869 --> 01:06:28.117 cleared out his library, he gave us the books that he had bought that we 01:06:28.150 --> 01:06:32.387 were missing, There were holes in our collection. So the books he gave us 01:06:32.420 --> 01:06:37.546 in pre Raphaelite alone helped us build a very significant collection. And 01:06:37.579 --> 01:06:44.037 then nick also was writing um biography of the thomas, bird Moser family. 01:06:44.070 --> 01:06:50.916 And thomas Bergmann was one of the early american fine printers. And uh 01:06:50.949 --> 01:06:56.887 his work was modeled after the film's got somewhat and interesting tie ins 01:06:56.920 --> 01:07:03.747 there. And it was, as always, it was the first one of the first mail order 01:07:03.780 --> 01:07:09.287 books that you could buy thomas berg Moser sold his by mail And uh they 01:07:09.320 --> 01:07:13.526 were uh interesting little books about pocketbook size you could carry 01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:18.347 them as you travel. But they were pretty books. And uh he he was called 01:07:18.380 --> 01:07:25.247 the uh pirate because he would not ask the authors that he quoted and 01:07:25.280 --> 01:07:29.776 printed for their permission or would he pay them anything. But as a 01:07:29.809 --> 01:07:33.896 result, he preserved a lot some interesting things of literature that 01:07:33.929 --> 01:07:38.057 might never have been printed and saved of authors that later became 01:07:38.090 --> 01:07:43.537 rather well known. And uh so when Nick was writing this biography, the 01:07:43.570 --> 01:07:49.927 most your family was so impressed by Nick that they gave him much of 01:07:49.960 --> 01:07:55.456 thomas, birds original library, which way issue has and then nick not to 01:07:55.489 --> 01:08:00.916 be, he never stops buying. Uh he if he saw something that wasn't in the 01:08:00.949 --> 01:08:05.617 library he would buy it and give it to us and I would continue to buy and 01:08:05.650 --> 01:08:10.936 he'd point out sometimes when things were available. And so now as you has 01:08:10.969 --> 01:08:16.357 uh probably if not one of the best the second best library collection of 01:08:16.390 --> 01:08:21.647 thomas berg Moser printer thanks to Nick. So and then Nick also has given 01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:24.967 us his film books when he taught film and when he did that cinema classics 01:08:25.000 --> 01:08:29.647 , you know, he met many of the stars, interviewed them on tv and that sort 01:08:29.680 --> 01:08:35.467 of thing. We had clips. So nick has helped build our library. The child 01:08:35.500 --> 01:08:41.847 drama collection is one of I consider that one of the stars that I I was 01:08:41.880 --> 01:08:46.527 responsible for. Lynn right who was chair of the theater department. She 01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:53.057 uh uh we we had a chance to get the papers of Rita Crist who was one of 01:08:53.090 --> 01:08:57.866 the beginning really founders of the child drama movement and she was at 01:08:57.899 --> 01:09:02.416 Northwestern University and Rita had offered her papers to Northwestern 01:09:02.449 --> 01:09:07.067 and they said they weren't interested and Lynn said I believe we can build 01:09:07.100 --> 01:09:12.416 a real child drama collection here at A. S. U. And are you interested? And 01:09:12.449 --> 01:09:16.437 I said sounds good to me. And I went to our acting librarian who was Helen 01:09:16.470 --> 01:09:20.866 gator and I said Helen this is a whole new kind of collection that we've 01:09:20.899 --> 01:09:25.357 not had before. It's going to include artifacts. We may have some costumes 01:09:25.390 --> 01:09:30.517 when we have some stage set setting designs, we're going to have that sort 01:09:30.550 --> 01:09:35.987 of thing perhaps audiovisual, which was sort of usual at that time. And 01:09:36.020 --> 01:09:41.107 she said well she thought about it for a while and I said Lynn right is 01:09:41.140 --> 01:09:47.576 interested. And she said if if we get the rita chris collection and we can 01:09:47.609 --> 01:09:51.977 took that as our founding collection and other people in the child Drama 01:09:52.010 --> 01:09:57.237 movement. And Alan was very active in the Child Drama Association and all 01:09:57.270 --> 01:10:01.027 and president became president and also she had a lot of influence. So we 01:10:01.060 --> 01:10:06.177 began talking and they sent out letters and we began receiving these 01:10:06.210 --> 01:10:13.826 collections. And uh now we have probably the best collection in the US. 01:10:13.859 --> 01:10:18.376 And Lynn was very uh self serving in this sense. And I don't mean to say 01:10:18.409 --> 01:10:22.496 that as a criticism at all, but she realized if we were getting these 01:10:22.529 --> 01:10:27.796 papers and uh original papers from all these founders of childhood early 01:10:27.829 --> 01:10:32.067 early practitioners, the manuscripts and all of that, that we would be 01:10:32.100 --> 01:10:37.557 building the Foundation for advanced PhD Research. And she was anxious to 01:10:37.590 --> 01:10:42.546 develop a PhD Well, the we were getting the collections and she could now 01:10:42.579 --> 01:10:47.927 say, we have primary resources for that, those those research. So building 01:10:47.960 --> 01:10:54.887 the collection and uh being enabling her to have a PhD or perfect hand 01:10:54.920 --> 01:10:59.637 glove. And uh, one of the things that was so interesting, Lynn helped me a 01:10:59.670 --> 01:11:04.946 lot. I had, she, well, when we first got this collection, I said, I don't 01:11:04.979 --> 01:11:08.446 have anyone who would know much about processing this kind of collection. 01:11:08.479 --> 01:11:12.027 And she said, I have the perfect graduate student and that was Kathy 01:11:12.060 --> 01:11:20.060 krish. And so Kathie began working for us and she was so good because she 01:11:21.239 --> 01:11:25.527 was in the field, she knew a lot of these people. She was an older student 01:11:25.560 --> 01:11:29.286 who had, was beginning to attend some of the conferences and the things 01:11:29.319 --> 01:11:34.326 that she would like to do. And um, so then I did everything I could to get 01:11:34.359 --> 01:11:40.147 money uh, to keep Kathy on some student money and this and that. We were 01:11:40.180 --> 01:11:44.927 once in awhile there'd be some innovative year money and I was able to 01:11:44.960 --> 01:11:50.446 tough some of that. And uh, one of our potential donors was little 01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:54.607 Schwartzel and he and his wife, Nancy Schwartzel have some of the best 01:11:54.640 --> 01:11:59.326 collection of papers which uh would ever be available to anybody. They had 01:11:59.359 --> 01:12:03.546 taught at new york university. They had done conducted institutes in 01:12:03.579 --> 01:12:09.326 London and in europe and they were speakers from all over the, they had 01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:14.727 boxes and rooms of material. And Lowell said to me, he said, if you can 01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:19.116 get Kathy krish on as your curator for the child around the collection, 01:12:19.149 --> 01:12:23.956 you have my collection. We thought, wow, is that great. So I talked to 01:12:23.989 --> 01:12:27.177 Lynn and I talked to Sherry. Well, there's no money, there's no this and 01:12:27.210 --> 01:12:30.767 that and the other thing, well we played around again hiring Kathy part 01:12:30.800 --> 01:12:35.527 time and then we got uh, if we kept our part time for a long time. And 01:12:35.560 --> 01:12:40.996 finally, Lynn thank goodness she said, she finally talked to Sherry. She 01:12:41.029 --> 01:12:46.506 said, if you can't find money for, to keep Kathy chris, I know other 01:12:46.539 --> 01:12:52.616 places that she can go because by that time Kathy graduated and and so 01:12:52.649 --> 01:13:00.246 finally Sheriff Sheriff uh did finally uh he'd Lynne's advice and she was 01:13:00.279 --> 01:13:03.237 able to cobble together. We gotta line for catholic christian. And that 01:13:03.270 --> 01:13:07.616 was, that was the beginning of the explosion of the child drama because 01:13:07.649 --> 01:13:12.086 other people knew and Lowell said we have Cathy it's time to send your 01:13:12.119 --> 01:13:20.119 collections. So um I think you have a very famous leaf. Oh yes, yes, yes 01:13:20.250 --> 01:13:26.286 we do. We have a leaf from the Gutenberg bible. And uh that uh that was 01:13:26.319 --> 01:13:31.826 purchased by our friends of the library and uh that was seemed like such a 01:13:31.859 --> 01:13:37.387 big purchase at the time. We were not big fundraisers was $15,000 at the 01:13:37.420 --> 01:13:43.946 time. But our dear sweet local Scottsdale book dealer, George chamberlain 01:13:43.979 --> 01:13:51.979 , he loved the library and he was he said, I'll sell it to you cheap. He 01:13:52.859 --> 01:13:57.866 said I'll sell it to the friends cheap. And so the price of 15,000 at that 01:13:57.899 --> 01:14:03.567 time, he could have gotten 18,000. Mhm. And but and he said he wouldn't 01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:07.956 charge us any interest pay us as pay him as he got the money. It took us 01:14:07.989 --> 01:14:14.696 about three years to pay the 15,000. I must confess we did Joyce Foster 01:14:14.729 --> 01:14:19.097 was our library development officer at that time and she was out trying to 01:14:19.130 --> 01:14:24.296 beat the bushes for and she'd go to various churches and ex exhibit belief 01:14:24.329 --> 01:14:30.116 and they have a little cash box, you know, contribution and it was sort of 01:14:30.149 --> 01:14:34.836 a penny ante sort of thing. But we didn't have anyone with deep pockets 01:14:34.869 --> 01:14:40.187 come up and say and we were trying to encourage it didn't quite work out 01:14:40.220 --> 01:14:44.427 if you wanted to underwrite the purchase of you know so many lines or 01:14:44.460 --> 01:14:50.786 something didn't work out that way well, but anyhow, we finally got that 01:14:50.819 --> 01:14:56.036 and uh And it's interesting to note, I think the last time, I looked that 01:14:56.069 --> 01:15:01.156 was several years ago, it was probably about 15, Maybe even 20 years ago 01:15:01.189 --> 01:15:06.647 that we did that. Uh But now the leaf from the Gutenberg is selling way 01:15:06.680 --> 01:15:09.706 over like $60, 01:15:09.739 --> 01:15:15.546 And so George did us a great favor. So a penny a day for the Gutenberg lee. 01:15:15.579 --> 01:15:20.487 That's right. Exactly, Exactly, Exactly. Well, I first met you Maryland 01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:24.626 when I was teaching music w geography course and I used to bring my 01:15:24.659 --> 01:15:28.506 students over to special collections and you brought out some of the 01:15:28.539 --> 01:15:33.527 interesting music materials that you had and I know one of them you dearly 01:15:33.560 --> 01:15:36.996 loved. Would you like to, do you remember which one would you like to tell 01:15:37.029 --> 01:15:42.946 us about that? I believe it was signed uh that which one was this? The 01:15:42.979 --> 01:15:47.647 Gershwin? Yes. My, one of my favorite books in the library, uh the 01:15:47.680 --> 01:15:54.817 songbook of uh Gershwin um and George Gershwin. And you open up the book, 01:15:54.850 --> 01:15:59.217 it's beautiful leather bound book and it has a memorable songs, very 01:15:59.250 --> 01:16:05.767 popular songs, that sort of thing. And it is signed by the artist. Um I 01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:09.496 can see the name, but I can't pronounce it. It's a Russian name by the 01:16:09.529 --> 01:16:14.967 artist. And then it is also signed by George Gershwin himself and this was 01:16:15.000 --> 01:16:20.666 a book from Clare booth luce library which she gave us almost everything 01:16:20.699 --> 01:16:23.826 and we understand that she sort of wanted to ask for this one back but 01:16:23.859 --> 01:16:31.057 nobody gave him back. But George Gershwin had pinned a staff and with the 01:16:31.090 --> 01:16:38.967 notes and uh words of the icing Baby and oh to have a book inscribed like 01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:47.000 that to you by George Gershwin. Oh I cherished it. I know that 01:16:47.930 --> 01:16:52.866 you also have some collections earliest connections with some other famous 01:16:52.899 --> 01:17:00.899 people like fritz shoulder. Yes I had ladic or was he's so sweet. He um he 01:17:03.460 --> 01:17:07.237 laddie was very um I liked laddie, he's another one of my favorite 01:17:07.270 --> 01:17:13.347 president and he seemed to be uh cognizant aware, appreciative of special 01:17:13.380 --> 01:17:19.786 collections and all. And um fritz shoulder had become very disillusioned 01:17:19.819 --> 01:17:27.597 with a issue. Um He had worked with Marilyn, what was your last name in 01:17:27.630 --> 01:17:34.366 the on the museum. Uh I've forgotten her last name. Uh It's easy to 01:17:34.399 --> 01:17:39.687 remember her first window, I'll 01:17:39.720 --> 01:17:44.916 think of it after this is over. Um He had loaned some of his sculptures 01:17:44.949 --> 01:17:51.017 and paintings and all for a Bigfoot shoulder exhibit and when it was all 01:17:51.050 --> 01:17:57.857 over um fritz had said you may keep this one sculpture for a S. U. And 01:17:57.890 --> 01:18:05.890 Marilyn said I don't want it. She refused to take it wow well you know it 01:18:06.100 --> 01:18:11.036 would be disillusioned with, it was terribly disillusioned. And Laddie had 01:18:11.069 --> 01:18:16.107 still he didn't want to lose that friendship. That knowledge. And so 01:18:16.140 --> 01:18:20.456 laddie had invited him at various times to meet with him, have lunch with 01:18:20.489 --> 01:18:27.187 him or something like that. So one day they were on campus and Larry said 01:18:27.220 --> 01:18:35.220 uh you know something that fritz had said about his collection, collecting 01:18:35.409 --> 01:18:38.826 of old books which he did and all he said, you know you better go why 01:18:38.859 --> 01:18:42.166 don't you go up and meet Marilyn words burger and she'll show you some of 01:18:42.199 --> 01:18:48.586 the things. So they were going right by the library. And so laddie said oh 01:18:48.619 --> 01:18:54.866 come on. So fritz came on up unannounced. And uh 01:18:54.899 --> 01:18:58.227 and I realized I found out who he was and I wasn't so familiar with 01:18:58.260 --> 01:19:04.786 shoulder paintings or shoulder anything at that time. But um I showed him 01:19:04.819 --> 01:19:11.326 what we had recently acquired which was Bill Gates, I had bought a 01:19:11.359 --> 01:19:15.857 manuscript, The Earl of Leicester hours over the manuscript and it could 01:19:15.890 --> 01:19:20.147 be called the Gates manuscript. The last owner of the manuscript, but he 01:19:20.180 --> 01:19:26.267 chose not to want to keep it, The Earl's name. And I showed that to fritz 01:19:26.300 --> 01:19:30.887 and he was always said oh he said I could probably buy this. I said well 01:19:30.920 --> 01:19:34.406 there may still be some copies left. So he went through that, he said, 01:19:34.439 --> 01:19:38.656 well and I brought out some of the other, oh and he was fascinated. He 01:19:38.689 --> 01:19:46.227 said oh I wish I had more time to spend. So um uh then uh just a few days 01:19:46.260 --> 01:19:49.706 later I got a couple of catalogs that had just the sort of thing we've 01:19:49.739 --> 01:19:54.286 been talking about from book dealers and I I sent them to him and he 01:19:54.319 --> 01:19:59.446 called me up and thanked me and uh he said oh he said you know I ordered 01:19:59.479 --> 01:20:03.366 something from one of those catalogs. He said that was that was a very 01:20:03.399 --> 01:20:08.107 expensive thing for me. I said I'm glad you enjoyed. And about that time 01:20:08.140 --> 01:20:14.336 the phoenix art museum was having a tour of homes in the valley and um one 01:20:14.369 --> 01:20:18.137 of them was going to be for his shoulders and when I saw that I tried I 01:20:18.170 --> 01:20:22.696 went down to try to buy a ticket and they were all sold out. The tour was 01:20:22.729 --> 01:20:27.227 sold out and I and so I told him I said fritz I would love to be on the 01:20:27.260 --> 01:20:33.876 forthcoming home tour but they were sold out. The library was sold out, 01:20:33.909 --> 01:20:39.036 the museum was sold out. And um uh so I said I'll have to wait for the 01:20:39.069 --> 01:20:43.156 next, next time they do this. He said you won't have to wait, he said why 01:20:43.189 --> 01:20:46.557 don't you come up to my house, I'll give you a tour, we'll have lunch 01:20:46.590 --> 01:20:51.487 together. And so we set a date and I went up so I got the full tour and uh 01:20:51.520 --> 01:20:55.347 then I begin we began talking about his collection of course I couldn't 01:20:55.380 --> 01:21:01.677 help but admire, oh his books, his paintings, his artifacts, his museum 01:21:01.710 --> 01:21:09.710 and I o I was overwhelmed. And so we kept in touch. And um I said you know 01:21:10.640 --> 01:21:14.336 fritz it would be fun to do an exhibit because I found out that he was 01:21:14.369 --> 01:21:18.217 doing printing. That's another you know renaissance type man. He wanted to 01:21:18.250 --> 01:21:24.616 do everything. He had a printing press. And I said show books not that you 01:21:24.649 --> 01:21:29.597 have printed and then books about you and all of which there were several. 01:21:29.630 --> 01:21:35.647 And he liked that idea. So we began to work on that exhibit. And um so we 01:21:35.680 --> 01:21:40.607 had a great deal of friend and we did a library catalog of his exhibit. It 01:21:40.640 --> 01:21:47.336 wasn't as good as my patent catalog because fritz wanted to retain too 01:21:47.369 --> 01:21:55.296 much. Uh it wasn't really library enough resort research information 01:21:55.329 --> 01:21:59.607 enough to qualify for one of the library prizes, that sort of thing. It 01:21:59.640 --> 01:22:04.927 was a beautiful catalog, lovely. But it was fritz's catalog, not a library 01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:08.897 catalog, but so we developed that catalog. We had a wonderful reception 01:22:08.930 --> 01:22:12.687 again, the friends of the library and to see all that he had done and 01:22:12.720 --> 01:22:19.357 exhibit. And he talked to us. And uh so we got very well acquainted that 01:22:19.390 --> 01:22:24.166 uh throwing that and uh sometimes he'd just call up on a woman say why 01:22:24.199 --> 01:22:28.427 don't you join me for lunch? And he and one time he picked me up in his 01:22:28.460 --> 01:22:33.826 rolls Royce. That was that was very nice. But and then I went up to his 01:22:33.859 --> 01:22:38.706 home several times and we talked about donation but he finally decided he 01:22:38.739 --> 01:22:42.477 was going to give his stuff to the Smithsonian. That was, that was all 01:22:42.510 --> 01:22:46.647 right. But in the meantime he did give us uh, he would send me his 01:22:46.680 --> 01:22:51.637 christmas cards that he printed and he did give me one of the books he 01:22:51.670 --> 01:22:56.227 printed, but the others I ended up buying after his death that they were, 01:22:56.260 --> 01:23:02.227 they were available but to have that. So um I and I got to know, I just, 01:23:02.260 --> 01:23:06.296 it was just a wonderful friendship that we had and we just, we can call up 01:23:06.329 --> 01:23:11.876 and we just chat sometimes on the telephone. Now you also had some 01:23:11.909 --> 01:23:17.977 experiences with helmet burn Shane. Yes. Oh yes, Helmet was great. They 01:23:18.010 --> 01:23:24.786 hired him as a guest Professor of photography and when he learned about 01:23:24.819 --> 01:23:31.967 our special collections, he came up to look and um when I finally, you 01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:35.446 know, we signed it at that time, we signed in and register and all that 01:23:35.479 --> 01:23:42.217 and I learned this is this famous man. Uh 01:23:42.250 --> 01:23:47.717 So uh we had uh he would come up quite often. We got well acquainted and I 01:23:47.750 --> 01:23:54.166 had him out to my house for dinner more than once and one time 01:23:54.199 --> 01:24:02.199 he had the famous um photographer visiting him, oh my, oh well uh I I 01:24:04.590 --> 01:24:07.626 don't remember the name but he said well I'm sorry I have to get and I 01:24:07.659 --> 01:24:12.996 said well bring him along, friends Burkle or something like that. Uh and I 01:24:13.029 --> 01:24:16.437 said well bring him, so I had two of the most famous photographers for 01:24:16.470 --> 01:24:23.137 guests at my dinner table one night. And um helmet ended up giving us many 01:24:23.170 --> 01:24:27.506 of the books that he had had published and printed. In fact he had two 01:24:27.539 --> 01:24:32.706 visits here at the issue over a period of about five years. And um he 01:24:32.739 --> 01:24:39.057 invited me to visit him in Switzerland and we did and 01:24:39.090 --> 01:24:46.307 we uh he had never been, they lived right near the Villa dost and and so 01:24:46.340 --> 01:24:49.527 we were going to stay there, we've gotten room. So they said well we'll 01:24:49.560 --> 01:24:55.536 meet you at the train, we were taking the train and uh into uh and so they 01:24:55.569 --> 01:25:03.569 met us at the train and took us to our hotel in uh Villa DST and his wife 01:25:04.300 --> 01:25:09.187 Irene said I'm so glad to be here because helmet gets to come here all the 01:25:09.220 --> 01:25:13.397 time for conferences and things and she said he's never brought me. So we 01:25:13.430 --> 01:25:19.756 had dinner together and uh then uh the next day they came and picked us up 01:25:19.789 --> 01:25:24.746 and we got to see helmets africa. He had started collecting african stuff 01:25:24.779 --> 01:25:29.237 , he had a whole whole basement, it was not like a basement you'd imagine 01:25:29.270 --> 01:25:33.177 , but air conditioned and beautifully finished and all that sort of thing. 01:25:33.210 --> 01:25:38.666 And it was africa and uh one of the best collections and he was using 01:25:38.699 --> 01:25:44.467 that to buy his citizenship in Switzerland. They were going to considering 01:25:44.500 --> 01:25:51.477 having you have, he said as a german he had to buy his citizenship and his 01:25:51.510 --> 01:25:56.097 collection might by his sister. I'm not sure exactly how all that worked 01:25:56.130 --> 01:26:00.086 out. But he he died in Switzerland. He never got that's interesting. I 01:26:00.119 --> 01:26:03.677 thought he was a swiss citizen. I know he realized he was german, he never 01:26:03.710 --> 01:26:09.586 got it, never quite got it. But anyhow it was such a delight visiting him 01:26:09.619 --> 01:26:14.416 and and his wife and him and all. It it was wonderful. That's been a 01:26:14.449 --> 01:26:18.996 tradition in Switzerland for a long time. My great grandfather purchased 01:26:19.029 --> 01:26:25.347 his swiss citizenship. Coming from Germany. Okay, 01:26:25.380 --> 01:26:30.397 what are some of your other less pleasant memories shall we say of your 01:26:30.430 --> 01:26:36.067 career? They assumed. Well um it was it was a sad day for me when special 01:26:36.100 --> 01:26:41.227 collections was closed. Of course I was on my way out really. I was uh 01:26:41.260 --> 01:26:45.067 first of all the beautiful room that we had there on the third floor was 01:26:45.100 --> 01:26:51.576 closed and um I was still able and I and my staff, what little staff we 01:26:51.609 --> 01:26:55.357 had was still able to work down there but we the door was locked. People 01:26:55.390 --> 01:26:58.927 had to make an appointment to get in. We weren't we couldn't even have it 01:26:58.960 --> 01:27:05.237 like I said the doorbell or something, you know, they put a film over all 01:27:05.270 --> 01:27:10.437 windows so that nobody could see we were there. And uh we serviced books 01:27:10.470 --> 01:27:15.116 from special collections up and down stairs in which they still do. They 01:27:15.149 --> 01:27:22.586 still do up to the archives. And uh it um I was I was sorry what? I 01:27:22.619 --> 01:27:29.166 thought that um Sherri Schmidt, the librarian could have done was to 01:27:29.199 --> 01:27:36.687 retain that room as a as as a showplace library really was really was and 01:27:36.720 --> 01:27:41.796 at least when I wanted to have receptions there or anything that you 01:27:41.829 --> 01:27:45.866 wanted to sort of show off the library, that room was still beautiful. We 01:27:45.899 --> 01:27:50.067 could have, you know, moved out. But she, when it was closed it was closed. 01:27:50.100 --> 01:27:55.616 She wanted no more, nothing to happen there. And I was sorry uh to see 01:27:55.649 --> 01:28:02.027 that happen. Oh I think there are other things that that for for whatever 01:28:02.060 --> 01:28:07.357 reason I believe the night collection was transferred. Oh yes that was sad. 01:28:07.390 --> 01:28:11.487 Uh Doctor kept when he was a librarian and red Henderson from the phoenix 01:28:11.520 --> 01:28:16.996 public library uh realized that uh the night collection that had been 01:28:17.029 --> 01:28:21.807 given by Alfred night to phoenix public really wasn't a public library 01:28:21.840 --> 01:28:26.836 collection in the sense that phoenix public library was, they were not 01:28:26.869 --> 01:28:31.286 phoenix public is not known for research, that sort of thing. And a issue 01:28:31.319 --> 01:28:36.036 is and and uh the stakes Shakespeare scholars, there was a lot of 01:28:36.069 --> 01:28:41.347 Shakespeare material in that are definitely here on campus A. S. U. Uh And 01:28:41.380 --> 01:28:47.546 um all the other significant collections and uh doctor kept said don't 01:28:47.579 --> 01:28:54.467 worry, he said you'll have it forever. Well yeah that then some different 01:28:54.500 --> 01:29:00.937 people came in charge. Well redhead of the next, the next librarian wanted 01:29:00.970 --> 01:29:04.706 to make phoenix public more like new york public. He wanted to make it 01:29:04.739 --> 01:29:08.267 research. Well he never would have the money. Would never have all that. 01:29:08.300 --> 01:29:13.406 But anyhow he they asked for the night collection back and we had to give 01:29:13.439 --> 01:29:18.817 it back. And that was the saddest thing because various professors were 01:29:18.850 --> 01:29:23.696 using those collections to build their courses dr gully Doctor of Dr 01:29:23.729 --> 01:29:29.597 pursued various other Gene brink, Shakespeare scholars, all that sort of 01:29:29.630 --> 01:29:34.557 thing. And they said we just we'll have to change our course is we can't 01:29:34.590 --> 01:29:39.017 ask students to go down. We didn't have the light rail and to drive down 01:29:39.050 --> 01:29:42.826 to phoenix public to see these books. Well when phoenix public remodeled 01:29:42.859 --> 01:29:46.227 and they made the rare books room and they got a librarian. Well that 01:29:46.260 --> 01:29:51.557 lasted for a short time. They no longer have a rare books librarian. You 01:29:51.590 --> 01:29:55.336 have to make an appointment to see the rare books. And then that can maybe 01:29:55.369 --> 01:29:59.796 on maybe on Thursday afternoon at 2:00 or something like that when 01:29:59.829 --> 01:30:04.067 somebody's there, you don't have a choice, they tell you when you can come 01:30:04.100 --> 01:30:10.046 as far as I understand. And so the books are bottled up there at phoenix 01:30:10.079 --> 01:30:15.397 public where they were in use at a S. U. And it's that was Gene. Gene 01:30:15.430 --> 01:30:20.807 brink was so cute she was she was wanted to see what we could do to get it 01:30:20.840 --> 01:30:25.366 back and she uh wanted to argue for it and she wanted us all the 01:30:25.399 --> 01:30:29.477 professors to join hands and form a human chain around the library when 01:30:29.510 --> 01:30:34.656 the trucks came. So we will not let the books go fortunately this was not 01:30:34.689 --> 01:30:42.317 organized, but it was a sad day. And then later on she wanted to borrow 01:30:42.350 --> 01:30:47.126 some of the books back for a display. And all we did that and the hoops 01:30:47.159 --> 01:30:52.246 they made us jump through. It was as though we couldn't we couldn't be 01:30:52.279 --> 01:30:56.126 trusted with a single thing. We had to sign all these papers and this and 01:30:56.159 --> 01:30:58.817 that and the other here. We've taken care of the books for all these years 01:30:58.850 --> 01:31:03.107 , cataloged them done preservation. Where and yet we couldn't be trusted 01:31:03.140 --> 01:31:09.166 to borrow that. I told Tina I don't ever want to do this again 01:31:09.199 --> 01:31:13.597 of all your accomplishments. What what do you think is the most important 01:31:13.630 --> 01:31:18.027 one? Well, probably the patent collection was one of the best things that 01:31:18.060 --> 01:31:22.777 occurred. And I think our work with the library associates, the friends of 01:31:22.810 --> 01:31:27.826 the library. And incurring favor of townspeople and their contributions. 01:31:27.859 --> 01:31:33.307 Um they weren't large contributions, but um it were townspeople who cared 01:31:33.340 --> 01:31:38.147 about the library. And it was wonderful to have this group of friends. And 01:31:38.180 --> 01:31:42.456 I was I was delighted when dr kept, even though I wasn't the full 01:31:42.489 --> 01:31:46.267 librarian and all. He recommended that I'd be on the board right away so 01:31:46.300 --> 01:31:53.576 that I could be in on activities that they were doing. Um And uh there 01:31:53.609 --> 01:31:57.817 were just uh there were so many, well there were just so many wonderful 01:31:57.850 --> 01:32:03.786 things and and uh once in a while Sherry would have me do some reception 01:32:03.819 --> 01:32:09.187 sort of things for people when they were coming. We did use the special 01:32:09.220 --> 01:32:13.406 elections like that for a while and and those were the days before they 01:32:13.439 --> 01:32:17.857 got real fussy about food and where it was coming from. And also I was, I 01:32:17.890 --> 01:32:22.817 was always making cookies, cakes and whatever for whatever event, 01:32:22.850 --> 01:32:26.717 literally thousands of students over the year. I'm curious what kind of 01:32:26.750 --> 01:32:31.527 advice you might have given them in terms of career choices, whether 01:32:31.560 --> 01:32:36.937 related to the library or related to their their degrees or just you know 01:32:36.970 --> 01:32:43.046 how much influence a special collections curator has had. You know, I 01:32:43.079 --> 01:32:47.156 really couldn't even don't even think of myself as having any any 01:32:47.189 --> 01:32:52.967 influence on anybody, but you know Carla yelling, who is in, she just 01:32:53.000 --> 01:32:59.086 retired from the english department. But she said she came into special 01:32:59.119 --> 01:33:04.647 collections and she was still working on her undergraduate degree and all 01:33:04.680 --> 01:33:09.737 and she was sort of interested in printing and books. And she said, uh she 01:33:09.770 --> 01:33:13.036 told me this was just a few years ago she told me, she said Marilyn, you 01:33:13.069 --> 01:33:16.437 took time and you showed me all these things, you answered all my 01:33:16.470 --> 01:33:21.607 questions and she said you encouraged me to pursue what I uh really loved 01:33:21.640 --> 01:33:27.517 and she did. And so that's one person I know positive feedback from, well 01:33:27.550 --> 01:33:31.557 , there are thousands of, of those who haven't told you anything. And it's 01:33:31.590 --> 01:33:35.647 it's just because you always gave of yourself and you you simply open the 01:33:35.680 --> 01:33:40.446 collection to who, whatever their interest was. 01:33:40.479 --> 01:33:44.196 And and the thing is, we always tried, it was never to impress them of the 01:33:44.229 --> 01:33:48.786 , of the monetary value of a book. It was everything else, you know, be 01:33:48.819 --> 01:33:54.717 the literary, the research, all that sort of value. And uh, we had such 01:33:54.750 --> 01:33:58.546 wonderful relationship. I mean, the students would come back and they'd 01:33:58.579 --> 01:34:01.996 say, oh, we're looking about for this sort of thing. Can you help me? And 01:34:02.029 --> 01:34:06.956 , and sometimes they'd have some resource, you know, some, I'd say we'd 01:34:06.989 --> 01:34:11.557 say can you do this? And you just bring out the truck of stuff, perhaps 01:34:11.590 --> 01:34:14.876 they could do. And I think they were impressed when they got that kind of 01:34:14.909 --> 01:34:17.006 attention. 01:34:17.039 --> 01:34:21.126 And you're always so good to me in terms of getting, getting facsimile 01:34:21.159 --> 01:34:26.866 editions of manuscripts that there was no way we could ever, by 01:34:26.899 --> 01:34:33.406 the to santa Maria, we got to two different facsimiles. Yes, that was, yes 01:34:33.439 --> 01:34:38.137 , that was quite a that was a marvelous collapsed. And I don't know where 01:34:38.170 --> 01:34:42.206 you found that. Well, that was partly the friends that we went to and 01:34:42.239 --> 01:34:46.036 sometimes I had some money in my budget and if I had a little money and 01:34:46.069 --> 01:34:49.187 the friends had a little money, we could cobble it together and get 01:34:49.220 --> 01:34:53.767 something right. Yes, I forgot you had been responsible for that. We have 01:34:53.800 --> 01:34:59.256 been retired for a few years now. Tell us what's occupying your time. I'm 01:34:59.289 --> 01:35:03.807 sure you're still making. Yes. Yes. I still like to cook. I still think uh 01:35:03.840 --> 01:35:09.416 , one of the things is I I had been writing a history of the library and I 01:35:09.449 --> 01:35:15.246 had written chapters one and two while I was still working and so I Uh 01:35:15.279 --> 01:35:20.607 completed chapter three, which I just took a copy of to share in a copy 01:35:20.640 --> 01:35:27.156 for the, excuse me for the archives. Uh, so, um, that's the main writing. 01:35:27.189 --> 01:35:31.256 I've done that. I haven't, that isn't too much, but right now my husband 01:35:31.289 --> 01:35:37.760 has Parkinson's, so I have to be there a lot. And working with caregivers. 01:35:38.640 --> 01:35:40.640 Are there any topics that we haven't asked you about that you'd like to 01:35:43.159 --> 01:35:47.307 share things good or bad? 01:35:47.340 --> 01:35:50.897 I can't think of too much. Really. I I think we've covered more than I 01:35:50.930 --> 01:35:55.546 ever expected to cover. I've digressed on several things, but I hope I 01:35:55.579 --> 01:35:57.557 haven't 01:35:57.590 --> 01:36:00.737 Well, I don't know how to thank you enough. You're just a fond of 01:36:00.770 --> 01:36:04.487 information as you always have been since I've known you and it's it's 01:36:04.520 --> 01:36:08.546 great that we're able to do this interview and talk with you today. Thank 01:36:08.579 --> 01:36:11.829 you so much. Thank you for havingme