Today is Wednesday the 28th day of March 2012. We're conducting an
interview for the Arizona State University retires Association video
history project we're located today in the A. S. U. Community Services
building. I am J. Richard hey for professor emeritus of music. The
technical support staff today includes Dave shortly operating the camera
ah and linda Vance coy, chairman of the S. U. R. A video history project
uh operating the audio. Please introduce yourself and state your name and
the positions you've held at the issue. I'm Marilyn words burger and I was
hired in 1960 to work in the library. And I started out as a cataloger and
continued as a cataloger and uh um was appointed as head of the
reclassification division In 1962. And then I what became the rare books
cataloger and was then elevated to acting head of special collections and
uh later the full head of special collections. Okay, let's come back to
your your life at A. S. U. In a in a little bit before that. I know you
had a very interesting childhood uh and you had a lot of other experiences
before coming to A S. U. So let's start with that background. Where where
were you born? Where did you go to school and all those great things that
happened before I met you. I was born in kirkwood Illinois which probably
nobody has ever heard of. But it's fairly close to Monmouth Illinois and
which is close to Galesburg Illinois where you know Knox College. So you
get the idea of where it was. And we lived in la harp and later uh
Illinois and later in La Salle Illinois. And uh I went to school at our
local high school Lasalle through high school and then I attended our
junior college, LPO Junior college, Lasalle through local speed Junior
College for two years. And then I went on to Macmurray College in
Jacksonville Illinois which was at that time an old girls school and uh
majored in english and then did graduate work at Northwestern University
and at A. S. U. Okay, I know when you were in high school that you were
involved in a lot of activities, one of which was music. Would you like to
tell us a little bit about that? Yes. I always played, I played flute and
piccolo and I always participated in grade school bands, high school bands
, college bands and orchestras and community orchestras. And uh it was
great fun. In fact I was I was greatly surprised to receive the music
award for the outstanding Musical Musician award for the senior class in
my senior year. That's great. And I believe you also played in the youth
symphony. Oh yes I did. I was I was surprised I was studying with a
professor of flute up in Chicago Illinois, we lived just 100 miles from
there in Lasalle. And uh he urged me to try out for the Youth symphony
there that in Chicago and I did try out and I was appointed principal
flutist at the Chicago Youth Symphony for one year and we played concerts
there in Chicago Orchestra hall and it was quite exciting. It would be
exactly um and I believe you were a bit of a cook in your younger life as
well. Yes, I've always liked to cook before. My mother was always worried
that I wouldn't be a very good cook. She was an excellent cook. But um
when we were first married, she was so worried that I hadn't done enough
cooking that when I invited my parents and Dicks parents up for dinner,
our first thanksgiving mother was tempted to bring a turkey in the car and
all the trimmings. She was afraid of being a failure and she was
pleasantly surprised and she finally conceded, well if you can read you
can cook and sew. But I was very fortunate. I I entered the Pillsbury bake
off in 1962 and um it was one of the finalists with my cherry go rounds
coffee cake. And it was so funny being in the library, they loved it when
I was, I decided to enter a cooking contest because I would bring samples
then I would ask for their comments and 11 of my colleagues mary Beecher
was well now Marilyn, I think that needs just a little more, I think you
better try another version. So they would get lots of treats. But it was
very, very fortunate to get to go to the first, uh, the first bake off was
in new york and, and, and we stayed at the Waldorf Astoria and it was so
nice. We, when we were wined and dined by Pillsbury, uh, we had, we could
order whatever we wanted for breakfast or lunch if we weren't being served
in a banquet style and just sign our name to the jacket. I remember that
first breakfast at the Waldorf Astoria, I had some tea and a little pastry
and um, A slice of melon and it was $4. Now at that time You could get a
decent breakfast for $1 anyplace else? I thought, oh, what elegant. And my
second experience was to go to the bake off again with my bacon and cheese
puff pie. And that was in 1968 and that was in Dallas texas and art
Linkletter was the emcee both times, which was interesting. And um, so did
you, did you appear in the breakfast club ever know? But when they
televised the bake off finals that year, they have us all sitting in court
, the cameraman knows who's going to be the winner and all that. And so
Art Linkletter was saying now, who had sour cream in there? I raised my
hand, who had uh, tomatoes and I kept raising my hand and
who uh, and who had cheese in there and I kept raising my hand and then
everyone said, uh, Dick said, when they were watching at home ever said,
oh Marilyn is going to be the winner? So they had the uh camera on both of
us, the two and then there's who had oregano, my hand went down and my
partner to the lab was the winner. That was, but no, no, no no cigar, no
money on that one. And then I also participated in a lot of local cooking
contests. In fact, I have plans to my kitchen with different things, a
couple of refrigerators and a barbecue and electric knife and blenders and
food processors and that sort of thing. Those were the days when they gave
all of that away and that's right. And now we know why everybody in the
library liked you. So I
believe you also had the opportunity to appear on television as a reporter.
Uh they had this contest, they announced uh CBS if you would like to be a
tele visitor reporter And each state had one. And uh so I entered and what
we had to do was write a review of some of the CBS programs that were on.
And so my review which I wrote was consider it was one of the
semifinalists. And so I was called in sort of for an interview and then
they
then they had us uh take specific programs before it was any program we
wanted to, now they said do one soap opera and do something else, I don't
remember, But we had to couple of reviews to. Right and so I ended up
being the finalist and it was very interesting uh are we uh cbs they
really treated us beautifully and we got to they flew us first to new york
and uh we had this one reception with a lot of the stars at the time and
we met Jack Benny and we met Gary cooper, not gary cooper, Jackie cooper.
And that was when Dennis the Menace was on. A little bit of a guy who was
he was getting so tired in his, we couldn't go home and a lot a lot of the
stars there and I had a very interesting experience when it was uh the
fullest bar I've ever seen, you know just every you could imagine. And I
went over and I ordered my traditional ginger ale please. And this
gentleman walked over and said I want to meet the woman who orders ginger
ale. And I he uh and so I went over to his table, I had my ginger ale and
we started talking. It was uh mr Jameson who was one of the C. C. E. O. S.
Of Cbs. And so we we chatted in the He was a contest or two. He liked to
participate. So we talked about how I entered the contest however and all
that sort of thing. So then he said would you like to go out to dinner?
And I was very surprised And and I said okay. And so we went over to
trader vics and had dinner. And he um about um, one of these uh coconut
drinks in a coconut, which had a gardenia. And he uh gave the gardenia to
me. And so I felt very flattered. He walked me back to the Waldorf Astoria.
And before um before we uh, I was going up to my room and all, he handed
me his telephone card. This is, you know, telephone credit card. And he
said, uh, call your husband and tell him you're safe and everything is
well, It wasn't very nice. Yeah. Real gentlemen. And this was in the late
60s. Yes. And it must have been before there were many females on
television as with the news, is that correct? But what we did with with
this uh, cBS thing we wrote, I had my byline in the newspaper in the
Arizona Republic everyday column by Marilyn was burger and pie. We
reported on what we did and the stars, the programs we were on and we they
, they scanned the tele visitor group each day for each program. Now an
interesting sideline I'm getting perhaps I hope to not to
my father just prior to my winning the contest had had in a burst appendix
And he was taken to the hospital and he was already 60 for almost 65 and
it was a very serious thing. And he was in the hospital and I asked mother
if I should fly home and she said no don't you, your dad, your dad don't
think he's dying, you know this is not. And uh so interestingly enough
they sent us some sheet of our parents is what they would be for for the
week while we were tele visitors and we were going to be on each of these
shows so dad could tune in the program and see his daughter on television
every day of that week. And so he called in all the nurses, this is my
daughter and they had a great time. Now these reviews uh you gave the
reviews both early on television and then they were also printed in the
paper just printed in the and Rudy Valli greeted us uh another one and I
had a picture taken holding his book and I, my thumb stepped down and he
said don't cover my name was very very very very indignant there. When you
were done with the CBS program in new york I believe somehow you were
transferred to Hollywood for a while. Yes we were we flew first class on
the jet and it was delightful. Uh First class. It was the first time I'd
ever flown first class. In fact I haven't flown all that many times at
that time. Uh huh. And then we met more of the stars were greeted. We uh
we went to see Jack Linkletter program and and Dennis O'keefe sent each of
us, each of us tele visitors, a carnation. And um it was uh you know we
think kindly of him and he signed autographed all of our programs and and
they made a big fuss over us. It was really nice. Well that was in the
days when they were real gentlemen.
That's right. We were um okay. You arrived in Arizona around 1960 I
believe in 1957 1957. And but not to A. S. U. So what were you doing in
that interim time? Well of that first year I got a teaching degree. Well I
had my teaching degree from Illinois and taught uh I taught both high
school and elementary. And uh then when I went to apply for my certificate
here in Arizona I needed 22 hours of Illinois credential notwithstanding.
And uh so I did it quick in order to even qualify to have my provisional
certificate so I could teach that fall. We came in June of 57
I was taking which was supposedly illegal at that time correspondence
courses from N. Au correspondence course from uh University of Arizona.
And taking a couple of courses at A. S. U. For the summer. And that got me
through with at least my provisional in the following summer. I finished
up the course is to have my full certificate. And uh so I taught a couple
of years in Arizona. And then at that time my husband was with Motorola,
that's how we got to Arizona in the first place. Uh the B-70 contract on
which he was working was canceled and Motorola was sort of in a downward
mode and the engineers were practically going around picking up paper in
this regard to have something to do a slight exaggeration. But Dick didn't
like writing proposals and doing things like that and he had a chance to
go to convert astronautics over SAn Diego. So we moved there and we were
there for six months when Motorola called and said we've got to be 70 back
again, the contract was reinstated, we'd like to have our engineers back
and uh we weren't all that charmed with SAn Diego unlike a lot of people.
And so we came back to Arizona and we hadn't sold our house in the
meantime it was just one of those things so it was waiting for us, we came
back and uh so uh I had been taking
of course it's like all because I have my teaching certificate and all
teachers you know have to keep taking hours and so I had decided to take
library science courses and because I was very interested in perhaps being
a school library and uh so I had gotten my all the coursework um there was
a period there when I wasn't working official, I was substituting and I
was taking all of these courses and uh in library science. So I got my
teaching certificate and I was sort of looking for a job. And uh nothing
seemed to be coming up in school librarians who happened to be one of
those years when funding is like always. And librarians are some of the
first to go in schools right now. Now that degree was from or that those
courses were from A. S. You right if you had a library science, No I
didn't. They didn't know they did not. All they had was this library
technician program which was uh the 15 or so hours that you took in that
qualified you for a teaching library school certificate. Which is all that
I had. Now is is that the same as the program they had later at a issue
which which was uh libraries degree for teachers only. Um It was that
that's what it was morphing into sort of. Okay yeah that's that's sort of
what I took. And uh later on I wanted to finish the Master's in education
um which they could only offer the minor in the library science stuff. And
so I was finishing up with the education and I got all but the final
thesis which I never did get for a reason which I could explain possibly
everyone but uh dr Minky who was in charge of placement at a. S. U. I had
a long talk with him and I said what he said you know there's this
cataloging job at A. S. U. And you've had your cataloging courses And he
said I'd I'd like to encourage you to apply for that. So I did. But
several people have told me you don't want to work for Mr Bachelor.
Uh in the library. He was head of the library. Yes he was head of the
library at that time. Harold Harold Harold Bachelor. That's right. But I
uh so I went to interview with him and that interview was the strangest
interview I ever had in my whole life. Um He talked to me about the
courses I've had. He said that was all right okay all right. And then he
took me around and it happened to be that was when the library still
worked on 39 hour weeks. So most everyone took their short day like on a
thursday afternoon. And that was the day of my interview. So nobody was in
the library hardly they accept the staff running
circulation and that sort of thing. But no no technical service staff was
there. And so he went around and introduced me to the desks and he said
this is where this line this is Miss phillips. And and if I mentioned the
staff it's all women and they were all retired pretty much retired
librarians or the ones that really couldn't work anyplace else. And he
delighted in having people that were older and could do exactly as he said.
And finally as I as we were wrapping up the interview he said well I
really don't like to hire you're kind of my kind
and he said well you're the cadillac and mink coat crowd with and married.
And I had neither cadillac nor I mean quote at that time and but he said
um I do need to fill the line and you have very good qualifications. So
the job is yours I okay. It had to be the strangest hiring in your career
as well. It really was. So when I started I was put under the supervision
and revision of Miss morrigan and poor Miss morrigan she was she looked as
as old as when God was born. She was very frail and she was she was a very
good library and she had had excellent credentials and in her day had had
some very good jobs but she was and she was very frail and so I worked at
a rather good speed I thought and her revision was very slow. She had to
make sure that I had every every you know no comma no period, no t
uncrossed no anything like that. And so here would be the pile of my work
that I had done and here was by her desk to revise and here is her output
of my well finally mr bachelor realized that this was not going to work
too well. So um he assigned me to be under Mrs Moran. Now mrs morale was
sort of a rebel. And he uh she when I started work in july and she was the
wife of Dr Mariner in the education department, very respected gentleman.
And they would travel to europe or somewhere anywhere for the summer and
he would do his research and all of that sort of thing. And um so when MRS
morale came back, she was assigned to me and and that was the best thing
that could've ever happened. She was a brilliant woman, a marvelous
catalog. She had been head of the library at ST louis university and of
course she quit when she got married and came in with Wilbur Wilbur and
all that. And uh so she I thought Mr Bachelor was so difficult to work
with and she but she said Marilyn I'm going to help you. And she did, she
was uh what we had trained for in the library tech program was really
school cataloging and so I had to learn a little bit of the niceties of
cataloging for a university library and Marian. It was wonderful and when
I would do my work and she would revise my work and had all moved very
slowly and and so she was the best mentor I could have ever ever ever had.
Now Mr Bachelor was so funny when uh as as he acting as head of
cataloging, he would he would give us our stuff to catalog and um and
oftentimes he would put down the number that it was to be. So he was
essentially almost doing our job.
And occasionally we would have to disagree with. That was not a good scene.
That was not a good thing. But when I was still in his good graces um he
would come over and I said Mr Bachelor, could you explain why you chose
this number instead of this? And he said oh that's a very good question,
my dear friend and was very very nice about it. But he had gotten a little
bit irritated with one of my other colleagues, Mrs Matchett. And she had
just had not questioned him on it and she just went ahead and changed the
number which was right. And he came back and took this and he said threw
it down on the desk mrs matches. How dare you change my numbers. And so
she left shortly after that. That was very unprofessional. I was sorry to
leave you tell us a little bit about the old Matthews library. Some of us
have been around long enough that we remember the the middle half the
stairs and so on. When I first started cataloging was on the main floor as
you entered the library. And then there were some double doors and
cataloging room was behind that and our desk were all in a neat row and
that sort of thing. But later as they began uh to remodel the library,
they decided they couldn't spare that. Wonderful uh good space for
cataloging. So they moved us downstairs, the cataloging downstairs now. Um
They made no provision or really no preparations, they just moved our
desks down there and squeezed them in and there was no adequate lighting
at all. So each of us brought a lamp for our desk and it looked like a
boudoir. We had all these little like bed lamps and bedroom lamps, all
sorts of things. Not very few look like what you have in an office or
anything, but they were more like came for your bedroom nightstand. And uh
we were squished in this. And then the staff room, there was really, they
had these cubbyholes like you could put stuff in like if you want to put
your coffee cup in or something like that. Uh and and they were just full
of cobwebs and all, they've never been cleaned out or anything. And the
rooms down there were still dirty and they were it was awful, It really.
So we were working and I remember one day they finally decided that they
were going to put new lighting and I was dressed nicely for work as I
tried to do and I went I was going to my desk and uh there was a guy
standing on my desk and there was all this plaster in town and he was
putting up a light fixture and so I thought, well I can't work here. And
so I went over to another desk that was empty. Somebody I knew he wasn't
going to be there. And later MS russell mr Bachelor Secretary came over
and said why aren't you sitting at your desk? And I said it's pretty and I
was reprimanded for trying to sit in somebody else's death. Very very very
strange. And um at that same time when we moved downstairs there was a
door that could be unlocked so that we could go from the downstairs to the
upstairs. It was not a public access store but we could have had keys. But
Mr Bachelor refused to allow that us to have access to that. So we had to
come outdoors outside up the stairs at the side at that north side of the
building and and in that north side door in to get the shelf list, our
research books, everything that we needed to catalog. And uh and also
there were no restrooms downstairs. So if you went to the restroom well on
really cold rainy days there there was nothing but just go out and get wet
sort of thing. It was just bizarre the way. And another time when we had
been cataloging in the upstairs area before we moved downstairs it was so
hot. Matthews had its own air conditioning and they didn't turn it on
necessarily when the major rest of the air conditioning came on one day we
all look like a bunch of wilted flowers. It was so hot in there and but we
had these clerestory windows and I said let's open the window and there
was no Marilyn you can't do that. Mr Bachelor wouldn't allow that. And I
got on my chair and opened up, I went down and opened the classroom and it
was just like watering a flower garden or something and you could see
people finally coming to life again. The breeze came in and the hot air
was going on and we all began to do a rather profitable day's work. And at
that time I had uh I had made some arrangement with Mr Bachelor that I
would take a half hour and I could leave a half hour early because my
husband and I shared the car and he went to work at 7 30 was out before 4
30 so I could leave a little early. So Mr Bachelor waited until I left, he
knew what had happened and then he came in and said who opened the windows
and then so uh so I wasn't there to pull him out. And so the next morning
we got a memo um if you uh you know we are we are not open the windows,
it's a consideration. We can't let you in all this sort of thing. And if
you are uncomfortable you must see something senior year or something like
that but you're not to do anything like I had just done. But he wouldn't
confront me personally at that time. So you were a bit of a rebel. I was I
was considered a rebel. Yes, the kind that you don't hire you see you
bring a whole new perspective on this guy. Oh
he oh he got so upset with me. Um I
shouldn't tell you this. But there was another one of my colleagues. We
were so upset with Mr Bachelor and he was so he wanted he wanted he put
down these older women all the time. I mean they were they were in uh and
in fear of him, you know because they and he was so cruel to them. But he
had one or two favorites and like Miss at and when I fell out of favor
because I opened windows and I spoke up occasionally. And so he would go
through and because he loved the cataloging, that sort of thing. Uh they
would go back to the room with all the accumulation of on catalog stuff
and this, Miss Sakhalin was one of his favorites. He was a real you know,
she just did yes. Mr Bachelor, you know all
the time. And so he would say well what would you like to catalog and this
that and so she would pick out this and then he'd pick out some and she'd
say oh no that looks too hard. He said we'll give it to mrs worse burger.
So
I fell out of favor and got all the hard stuff. And this was when mary
anne meara taught me how to catalog because you don't catalog some of
these things that are really, you don't have any Library of Congress
catalog to go by or anything like that and you have to come up with it
yourself. And she taught me how to handle things that are Abound two parts
together upside down. Does edo and that sort of thing. Mr Bachelor wasn't
speaking to me when he was left and was transferred over to the education
department and because he was put in the education department I knew he
would have to be on my committee at the library science part to write my
and I couldn't write it with him there. I knew that. So that's why that
degree left was left unfinished and he didn't, by the time he left it was
too late. I had I had to do all my hours over again and I chose not to do
that. Now at that time the SQL library catalog was still using the dewey
decimal system. I believe. That's right. That's right. Um And I think you
had something important to do with the change over to the Library of
Congress. After uh when Mr Bachelor uh left he was transferred over to the
education department to work with the library science of course is there.
And we hired dr Covey in 1962 as the head librarian. And he uh
I hired head of cataloging. Mr Bachelor. No no longer was head librarian,
Head cataloger and Lord everything else as he tried to be micromanaging.
Uh And uh so Miss Haskell and conferred with DR Covey and they decided
that I should become the head of the new re classification department.
Which was going from transferring from dewey decimal, The old dewey
decimal to the new Library of Congress. Miss Haskell said you're I would
not normally give this to someone like you who doesn't have the degree but
you're the only one left I think I could do it. So we had still so many of
these retiree, older librarian women that work. Yeah. Right. Well you you
must have had to spend a lot of time relearning the Library of Congress.
Yes we did. And uh this was a case where um mrs mara had during our
tutorial while I was before we did the actually classification. She was
showing me how we could study the Library of Congress classification
system to give us insights sometimes in preparing a doing number. So I had
learned a lot, there's the correlation and all that sort of thing. So
there there were AIDS for the Library of Congress which she introduced me
to which was a perfect segue from my doing reclassification. Yeah and she
was always available because she was still there when I was in charge of
reclassification to do some checking sometimes I want to change the
subject for a little bit. Um, tell us what I asked you was like when you
came here,
it was small and we could, we had, there was a parking lot right by the
old Matthews library that we could pull in and I could pull in. You know,
you could pull in at two minutes of eight and not be late and it was not
asked you university. No. Yes. Yes. It had just been started in 60 and 58
was the university? Okay. So we were just growing into university status
And all and parking was still what they charged for horses. In the first,
it was $5 for your horse when first started, it was still $5 for your car.
Not anymore. Not anymore. So parking was a big, big bargain at that time.
And you, you're during your tenure, you've seen a lot of presidents.
Different presidents. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Uh We uh, and
and one of the things the, oh, one of it was one of the um, strange
happenstance is about my hiring. I was the last person hired without the
full degree to be given professional library status because of my position
as catalogers catalogers were considered professional, like reference,
like brands and catalog and anybody else. Uh, um, so I was very surprised
when
they came around and said, well you're entitled to come to the faculty
breakfast. That was one thing we I wasn't and there were a few of us. And
and we didn't understand why some people got to go and some people didn't.
And other people who had come to the library with every bit as good
credentials as I, you know, like public school librarian ship credential,
that sort of thing. They were not considered faculty because partly
because of their position and all that. So I got faculty status from the
beginning and we got to go to faculty meetings and that sort of thing.
That was when um DR Covey came on, he insisted that we claim our faculty
status and all that sort of thing. But when I first came, some talk was
that, you know, And we were fewer than 12,000 Students when I game at 58.
And they said, you know, someday a s you may have as many as 20,000.
And that just sounded like and we were really a small small school really
in so many ways. And we were not we hadn't grown into university status in
the in the way that we are now
um do any of the presidents of the university during your tender tenure
stick out. Well, yeah, uh dr Durham was a real jewel. And of course we
were still small when when Durham came. And uh under dr Covey's rule
regime, we were able to start a staff association, which was mr Bachelor
wouldn't have allowed anything like that. So the staff association tried
to build up some camaraderie, we were really very uh not a very cohesive
unit. Mr Bachelor was not one to foster camaraderie and fellowship and
that sort of thing. So dr Covey felt that morale was low and we needed
that. So we started a staff association and uh we would have like uh
christmas parties now, the holiday parties I would say. And uh
occasionally meet, we would meet about every two or three months sometimes
and have a faculty member speak to us or we would have a potluck or
something like that. And um our christmas party one year, we had it over
in the emu and we had all uh staff people program, I played my flute and
some other people played the piano and we had some vocals and and we
invited President Durham and he came to our staff christmas party. Now you
know this we thought this was fantastic and and he'd come and he said, I
think it's so wonderful. The library is uh using their own talent getting
acquainted, he just praised us for what we were doing. That was that was
very nice. Um No other President, I don't think he ever accepted an
invitation. We forgive it. But then President Swatter was interesting in
the fact that he was a supporter of our friends of the library, the
library associates and he would attend those uh those meetings and we felt
very honored that he would do that. And gradually, as the President's got
busier and busier, they didn't come to our friends library things. And
then you would witness the transition to the head library stacks. And
after that, the uh under the nipple of knowledge, uh expansion of head
library, any particular stories about. Well, just just before the transfer
, they had started putting books in uh uh storage there in hallways and
all sorts of things and wouldn't let, well, people could go down there,
but you almost needed a miner's lamp. We said if anybody was gonna show we
should issue miner's lamp because you couldn't see a thing. If you didn't
have a flashlight, you couldn't read this pond. It was terrible. It was
dark, it was dank, it was, it was awful. But the transition, there are
some pictures of us. Um almost every librarian wheeling a book truck and a
symbolic book truck over to Hayden library. But we didn't get to move all
at one time as it was first planned. And so gradually the first floor,
second floor, third floor, fourth floor uh finally uh took over. So it was
, I felt sorry for the poor shape pagers shelters, that sort of thing
because sometimes the book would be requested and it was right in
transition. And so they'd run back and forth to try to find where, where
the book was to find out. Uh And uh we had some dedicated library
personnel Betty glover and her assistance was in charge of the catalog and
she wanted it to be ready while when we've really opened up finally, for
the first business. And so she and her staff went over and working in the
lobby of Hayden Library where the shelf list was ultimately set up. Uh
There were paint fumes from, you know, the carpets and and and all the
finishing of the wood and this and that and the other thing. And there was
no a C at all, no air conditioning. They sat over there and they were just
drenched in sweat. Some days getting that catalog filed and ready to go.
It was dedication beyond the call of duty, certainly. And you didn't
experience anything like that as they did the Underground edition.
Not so much, no. Uh that that was quite an experience to and there was
talk about putting the special collections in the underground edition at
one time and uh editing who was in charge of Arizona at that time. And I
we said no, we don't want to be underground. Uh and we were very glad
because they had more than one leak and uh some Stewart backup and various
things like that that happened downstairs. It was it wasn't good for
anything, but certainly not, especially. No, no. So we were glad we stood
our ground now all the time that that I knew you because I came after that
time. You were in special collections. So how did you segue from re
classification to special collections? Well there was an interesting story.
Um I saw reclassification was sort of winding down. We had a different
library in. His support for reclassification was dwindling. I could tell
that. And I said I think I went out, our re classification department had
gone from two of us until about 18. There was a lot of people, we had a
lot of students pulling cards and the staff. I thought I didn't really
want this so much. So I'd like to go back and I said to Miss Haskell, I'd
like to go back just being literature cataloger. And she appointed mary
Swati who was the literature catalog very in charge of the finish up the
reclassification. So that was perfect. And uh then uh Mr Dopkin, who was
the associate university librarian at that time, approached me and said
this does not sound very humble but he said Marilyn, I think you're the
best cataloger here, which is very flattering. He said I think you're the
one that should be doing classifying the rare books because they take a
special talent. And he said I'll I want to show you how to do that. So he
began giving me a private tutorial on rare book cataloging. And he would
come over, he was he should have stayed with rare books. That was his
forte. He had been a rare books library but chose administration and he
would get frustrated with administration and so oftentimes at the end of
the day and maybe four o'clock in the afternoon he'd come over and he'd
say Marilyn we're going to have a rare books lesson. And and he would he
would show me about bindings of different points of these books and all
that sort of thing. And we were having so much fun, I was having so much
fun. Miss Haskell. It was not happy. Exactly. She and one day uh she
called me into her office and she said um Marilyn if you're you're too
happy and if you don't cool it I'm going to have to move your desk. You
she said you greet us like we're all a bunch of fourth graders or
something with you. That was the first time I'd ever been told that I was
too happy. Um And of course I think part of it I was having so much fun
with learning these new things with Mr Dopkin. And so uh Mr Dopkin
realized what was going on finally and um so he said Marilyn I'm going to
move your desk up to special collections and since you're doing most of
the rare book cataloging. Uh So they moved my desk back into the stacks,
not in the main reading room or anything like that, but back in the stacks.
And uh so I had and he said this is good the security of the books, it's
a better better location. And he said you could then pinch help out in the
front desk and you can sort of learn what people are looking for. It may
help you in your cataloging points, that sort of thing. So there was there
was a special room for for special collections, it was separate but it was
the sacks now was that in Matthew's library? No this was in the new Hayden
library. Uh And in um uh huh. Two years before my move up there in 71
actually he moved my desk up. Um They had done a doctor Oscar Taney had I
decided they had friends of the library they had established when of
Hayden Library was built and Great Katie Katie Gammage was instrumental in
forming the friends of the library. And Dr. Taney who was in the friends
gave $35,000 to remake the room for special collections remodel. Well that
wasn't enough. It was took about twice that. So the room by university
rules couldn't be named the tiny room one of those technicalities, which
is unfortunate unfortunately, but it was a lovely room in on the on the it
was called the second floor at one time, third became the third floor when
they started counting the bottom floor is number one. Uh And um it was
lovely with in the library uh Library Associates furnished it with teak
furniture, lovely custom made teak furniture and card catalog furnishing.
It was a lovely room. And um so I got to move up in the stacks of that.
And so then uh Mr Dobson could come up anytime he wanted to and we could
have fun. And he is part of his tutorial. He said no you'll never be head
of special collections because I didn't have the full degree. He said but
he said I'm going to show you how to be a real special collections
librarian. And so he would bring up catalogs of rare books. And he would
um say he would give me an assignment and he said okay tell me you have
You have $1,000 to spend. Uh tell me what you would choose. And so we
would go over then a few days later and that's a good choice. That's a
good choice. Why didn't you choose that? I don't think I'd choose that
with this available that sort of thing. I'd wait for that. And so I got a
real field because and we were working it wasn't in an abstract way we
were working with the collection that was there already supplements.
That's right. What would supplement. And he was teaching me on how to
evaluate what we had what what what were some what we should have on the
want list, what we should be searching for, what we should reject that
sort of thing. Sometimes I would get uh would influenced by some pretty
little books, you know some things that you do. But this is so and he
would say you know we can't can't just get a pretty little book just
because it's a pretty addition doesn't mean it's significant for a scholar
or meaningful in any way. And then we got in because I was still doing the
cataloging uh doing description of bindings. How do I know? How do I know
what's in Morocco? What's a full caf? What's pink skin, What's all these
sorts of things? So we went through that Uh two as we get new books. And
he did a lot of the ordering for special collections too because he he was
knowledgeable much more so than the special collections library. And it
was there he had been sort of put in the place without all that training a
lot much training and all. So uh unfortunately Mr Dopkin
contracted
hepatitis and it was just a very very very severe case. And the doctor
said you shouldn't you won't be working for six months or so. So he
resigned and went to be with family where he could be sort of looked after
leaving the the easy life. And just about that time just prior to that we
had gotten a new librarian. Dr Donald kept. And um so um dr kept kept when
Mr johnson left. The doctor kept agreed to appoint me with jay's
authorization. J. Dawkins authorization. Uh make me acting head. And he
said you'll be looking you know they'll be looking for a job. Well doctor
kept when he came said and with Mr. Dobkin leaving and all he said I need
to evaluate what's going on here. And I've got a lot of things the whole
library staffing situation. So he said I hope you don't mind acting for a
while. And I said no that's fine. Well about a year later I finally asked
Dr kept, I said excuse me sir, are you ever going to uh make an
appointment final appointment of hiring from my position? And he looked at
me and he said oh he said you've been doing such a good job of acting. I
sort of forgot it wasn't filled. So he was he said I'll do something about
that. Uh So uh within a week or so he had issued he said I'm going to have
to I'm going to have to advertise for this. So he issued um job
description and uh he was very kind. He did not include the requirement
for the masters, the mls a lot of experience along the lines I had had it
, the job description fit me pretty well. I'm surprised.
And uh so when
a few weeks later after all that he said he did uh advertised in the state
, he didn't advertise nationally but he did and sent notices to all spins
around. And he got four applications and he called me into his office and
um and said I have four applicants for this job. And he said but I think
you're the best one for it? And he said are you still interested? And I
said yes and so he said all right it's yours and the date was april 1st.
So you went home a little bit worried after that. I didn't think Doctor
kept we're doing it was funny uh when dr kept left later on I told him the
story about how it was april 1st and I always wondered if another shoe was
gonna drop. And he laughed and laughed and said it never even entered his
mind that it was april 1st or anything like that. So uh from then on I was
special collections librarian for over 30 years. And I think that's how
everybody knows you write for the most part. You also did a little work
with the preservation department. Yes I did. When our preservation
librarian left uh went to a better position, the position wasn't filled.
And Sherri Schmidt who was our librarian at that time, I didn't want to
fill it right away. She wanted to look around and all. And so she asked me
to fill in and b acting head of that. So I was doing special collections
and Preservation. And uh so that went on for nearly a year I think. Uh But
finally they got things around. So they had a preservation person. Not not
a full of pres preservation person but someone who could act in that
position, so I didn't have to do that for longer than a year, What do you
remember most about your career? That is true. Is there any particular
event or person who stands out? You know what if you have 48 years?
There's a lot, there's a lot that that's interesting of, one of the things
that was really fun I had recommended to doctor kept um because of our
strong collection of the pre Raphaelite brotherhood materials. And that
was due in part to Professor Nick Salerno, who had been a great library,
who was is still a library supporter. Uh And and at his encouragement as
well that it would be wonderful if we could acquire a film scott press
collection. The complete printings of William Morris printer and all. Um
so, um I heard about this collection of uh Arnold Horwich who taught part
time at the at issue had this collection of kelme scott, a complete,
almost complete collection, and he was going to sell it. And uh I think
Nick told us, he said he would like to sell it, but at that time the
Japanese were so being so uh they were buying up America, you know, we
felt like and and he said he had some interest from the Japanese didn't
want his collection to go over to Japan. And uh so I talked to dr kevin
and I said, I think this would be really a star in our crown to have this
collection. And he agreed. And he said, well look around and he said, we
don't, I don't have that kind of money just that we could use for it. So
um he looked around, do you remember how much it was involved, you know,
I'm sorry, I've forgotten right this minute. Um but it it was quite a bit
of money, it seemed like it was about like 50,000 or something like that
and which was really a good bye. I mean Mr Koepp had doctor kept had me um
going through book prices and checking in to see if the price seemed right.
And it it did seem very, very favorable. And so uh we did have uh some
alumni funds and friends of the library contributed a little bit and he
contributed and we toppled it all together. And I remember the day uh It
just decided I would go up and pick it up. And so I took my assistant and
here I was carrying along around these $50,000 worth of books in my car.
And I thought that in her, which was living in Scottsdale and that drive
from Scottsdale to Tempe seemed very, very long, I was so worried if
something would happen. But uh and that really did become one of our stars
in our collecting crown. And because Horwitz had a lot of things that were
unusual, like um some proof pages from the press and a couple of very
special editions. The only thing we didn't he didn't want to sell was the
chaucer which was the crown of the collection and the chaucer we were able
to acquire later to uh but for a long and then I was able to get effect
simile of the poem chaucer which was printed by the bacillus press, which
was another press we were collecting another good donor. Page fails
decided you know why don't we wait? And by something like the calm scott
press when you know uh not 100 years but close to 100 years after it's
been published when we could be buying from uh printers at the time that
they're printing. And so she was a wonderful benefactor and I introduced
her to the bacillus press which is a small new press. And she bought all
eight books that the uh bacillus press printed. And it was interesting I
sort of digress here. Um Charlene gary was the publisher in London and she
came on in the U. S. To visit to sell her books and promote them and that
sort of thing. And uh so I invited her to visit a issue and page fails had
Charlene and me over to her home and we talked about the books and uh then
later I was able to visit Charlene in London. Uh and we had this wonderful
bond between publisher donor and recipient here over a period of years.
and paige died before the last book of kiln scott of the bacillus press
was printed. And so the friends of the library bought the very last book
in memory and honor of page failed. So we had a complete bacillus press
and it was interesting uh that uh uh paige died and then Charlene died.
She was younger than I am. And uh just after the completion of her final.
Yes. Yes. What what are some of the other memorable collections that that
you were sort of responsible for bringing to? Well I think probably if I
will ever have a star in my celestial crown as a result of library would
be the patent collection. And Duncan Patton, who was a biology professor
here at A. S. U. Uh came to me and he said Marilyn, would you be
interested in a biology collection? And I said sure of course tell me more.
And so uh he brought me a list of and it was his mother's and father's
collection. His mother um was failing very much and but she wanted to see
the collection um kept in total total and she she and her husband had
collected it over a period of a number of years and they had started
collecting right after the war. And her husband, Mr Patten Duncan's father
had business overseas. So he was able to scout for books after the war.
And many of them were great bargains. They wanted they wanted money, they
had to get rid of their books. And so he bought some of these fabulous uh
incan abdullah books printed in the cradle of printing before 1500. There
were three in Canal Bulus in that collection. And uh many first editions
of early herbals, gardening books 150 books in all. And uh they had moved
, the patent family had moved from their michigan home and then retired in
Wyoming. And so Mrs fails had near Yellowstone and Mrs fails had offered
the collection to the University of Wyoming. And they said fortunately and
they were honest, they said well this is not really one of our strengths
interests and all. We would probably keep it for the mandatory three years
or so and then disperse it and sell it for what we really need. That was
that was that was not, that was not what she wanted to hear. And so Duncan
was looking around. Um and unfortunately because miss, her mother was
failing, his father was passed already passed away. Um The family sort of
was wondering if they should maybe disperse the collection and split the
profits. And Duncan said write me a letter, tell me why, why you why it
would work here at a S. U. Why you would like to have it. And so I worked
on that letter for quite a while and when I checked our holdings at a S. U.
We only had 22 and two thirds volumes, we had two volumes of what they
had a three volume set in one uh duplicate of one edition of the Gerard's
Herbal and one other volume. But 147 volumes were not duplicates. And uh I
told him about well just why I thought it would be perfect here with
Duncan as head of the Biology Department and Research. It was a perfect
way to memorialize their name. And we I had no no concept of what this
collection would be worth And um but anyhow we insured it for about
$400,000 when it was being shipped here And when the appraisal came in it
was over $1 million.
You can see why the family wanted. They didn't have any idea either. But
uh what we did uh we did make a fuss over it a little bit and this was
justified and very necessary. I thought um Cherie, in her wisdom, cheri
smith, the librarian uh said we must have a celebration a reception and
honor. So um we created a beautiful exhibit of all of these, the
benchmarks, the land really the finest books in the collection. And then
Sherry uh decided she wanted a catalog of the exhibit.
And um she was first going to have um don dial her colleague in texas and
I was supposed to do the reason a lot of the research for him. And then he
was going to edit it and final iser. And I asked him, I said well I'd like
to know. I said um how what I'm doing the research I'm doing if it's what
you want, how you want it and all that sort of stuff. Oh don't worry about
it. Just send me your information. I said and I finally uh told Sherry I
said I don't think I like working this way. I don't know whether I'm doing
the right thing. I said I'm very uncomfortable with this. And she finally
had a talk with don dial and she began to worry because the deadline was
getting closer and closer. I had had no feedback. And finally she said
well Marilyn I guess you're going to have to do it okay. I had three weeks
to do a catalog. I have never retarded my whole life. And uh what uh and
then they wanted the photographer because this was not digital photography
and all the easy things to do this uh to choose the um illustrations
before I even had knew what were the high points of the books and all. And
so I counted out how many so I selected illustrations and uh fortunately
some of my colleagues Diane moore who was our by biology uh science one of
our science librarians. She and I have been very good friends. She uh and
she helped me do some of the research on some of the things. And I had a
volunteer who had her mls and a PhD in english. And she helped me do some
proof reading and also gathering some facts. And I had typists who were
willing to type and and all and we pulled it all together. And um it uh
and I was amazed this one picture. I just loved this one photograph and I
didn't even know what it was. But uh and I had found this fact about the
past flower, how it had been written. How this was one of the interesting
illustrations that it was named in the herbal. And he had a whole and so
it was and I learned this was the past flower. This is what I had written
about, why the two came together miraculously my guardian angel was really
working closely with me and on that. So we had the catalog and the catalog
received, you can send in catalogs to L. A. For revision, you know,
judging and all that. It was not a winner. But it was judged as one of the
good very good catalog. And that's always evidenced by the fact that some
of my colleagues did order copies of the catalog for their collection. And
then we talked about my being in charge of uh preservation for awhile. Uh
an extra stipend that went along with that. Finally. And so what I did
that stipend, I wasn't counting on it at all. So um I had this former
assistant who helped me in special collections for a number of years. She
had gone on to work with intel and cutting edge computer design program
design and all of that sort of stuff. And so I talked to Gail and I said
it would be wonderful if we could get a full catalog because we had only
36 in the catalog. And there were 100 and 50 books if we could get a full
catalog. And um and put it online. And Gail was always cutting edge sort
of thing. And in fact, so we worked and we got an illustration or two,
sometimes even three. She and I couldn't decide which ones. He said, well
let's put them all in of uh every one of the patent books. And uh then she
designed this program which it had to be stand alone. It was too far
advanced to be incorporated into the library's catalog at that time. And
it was the first um program to incorporate a video. She we had done a
video clip interview of Duncan Patton. And so she took one minute clip
from that and put it in the program getting you can see Duncan patent
talking about the collection that was unheard of at that time. Of course.
Now is that still available online? It's still online and it has now
incorporated as part of the library catalog. So you will you can click the
various programs, catalogs and catalog. And of course the illustrations
could be in color which we didn't do in our catalog. And um and that
program was judged as one of the outstanding herbal um reference online
sources. And there's a little note on the on the program. Now we we have
uh the library incorporated that quote. There are a lot of other unique
collections in their science fiction, film theater. Yes, Yes. And uh oh
there's so many donors that I have so much to be grateful for and and I
don't want to forget uh Doctor Nicholas Salerno who has been, he has been
a mainstay of the library. First of all, he was wonderful too, advise
library specialists about what was good and what he needed for his
teaching courses. And of course he always had far more requests than the
library. Goodbye. But interestingly enough when the library wouldn't buy
it, nick often would. And so and then uh as he's as he retired and all, he
cleared out his library, he gave us the books that he had bought that we
were missing, There were holes in our collection. So the books he gave us
in pre Raphaelite alone helped us build a very significant collection. And
then nick also was writing um biography of the thomas, bird Moser family.
And thomas Bergmann was one of the early american fine printers. And uh
his work was modeled after the film's got somewhat and interesting tie ins
there. And it was, as always, it was the first one of the first mail order
books that you could buy thomas berg Moser sold his by mail And uh they
were uh interesting little books about pocketbook size you could carry
them as you travel. But they were pretty books. And uh he he was called
the uh pirate because he would not ask the authors that he quoted and
printed for their permission or would he pay them anything. But as a
result, he preserved a lot some interesting things of literature that
might never have been printed and saved of authors that later became
rather well known. And uh so when Nick was writing this biography, the
most your family was so impressed by Nick that they gave him much of
thomas, birds original library, which way issue has and then nick not to
be, he never stops buying. Uh he if he saw something that wasn't in the
library he would buy it and give it to us and I would continue to buy and
he'd point out sometimes when things were available. And so now as you has
uh probably if not one of the best the second best library collection of
thomas berg Moser printer thanks to Nick. So and then Nick also has given
us his film books when he taught film and when he did that cinema classics
, you know, he met many of the stars, interviewed them on tv and that sort
of thing. We had clips. So nick has helped build our library. The child
drama collection is one of I consider that one of the stars that I I was
responsible for. Lynn right who was chair of the theater department. She
uh uh we we had a chance to get the papers of Rita Crist who was one of
the beginning really founders of the child drama movement and she was at
Northwestern University and Rita had offered her papers to Northwestern
and they said they weren't interested and Lynn said I believe we can build
a real child drama collection here at A. S. U. And are you interested? And
I said sounds good to me. And I went to our acting librarian who was Helen
gator and I said Helen this is a whole new kind of collection that we've
not had before. It's going to include artifacts. We may have some costumes
when we have some stage set setting designs, we're going to have that sort
of thing perhaps audiovisual, which was sort of usual at that time. And
she said well she thought about it for a while and I said Lynn right is
interested. And she said if if we get the rita chris collection and we can
took that as our founding collection and other people in the child Drama
movement. And Alan was very active in the Child Drama Association and all
and president became president and also she had a lot of influence. So we
began talking and they sent out letters and we began receiving these
collections. And uh now we have probably the best collection in the US.
And Lynn was very uh self serving in this sense. And I don't mean to say
that as a criticism at all, but she realized if we were getting these
papers and uh original papers from all these founders of childhood early
early practitioners, the manuscripts and all of that, that we would be
building the Foundation for advanced PhD Research. And she was anxious to
develop a PhD Well, the we were getting the collections and she could now
say, we have primary resources for that, those those research. So building
the collection and uh being enabling her to have a PhD or perfect hand
glove. And uh, one of the things that was so interesting, Lynn helped me a
lot. I had, she, well, when we first got this collection, I said, I don't
have anyone who would know much about processing this kind of collection.
And she said, I have the perfect graduate student and that was Kathy
krish. And so Kathie began working for us and she was so good because she
was in the field, she knew a lot of these people. She was an older student
who had, was beginning to attend some of the conferences and the things
that she would like to do. And um, so then I did everything I could to get
money uh, to keep Kathy on some student money and this and that. We were
once in awhile there'd be some innovative year money and I was able to
tough some of that. And uh, one of our potential donors was little
Schwartzel and he and his wife, Nancy Schwartzel have some of the best
collection of papers which uh would ever be available to anybody. They had
taught at new york university. They had done conducted institutes in
London and in europe and they were speakers from all over the, they had
boxes and rooms of material. And Lowell said to me, he said, if you can
get Kathy krish on as your curator for the child around the collection,
you have my collection. We thought, wow, is that great. So I talked to
Lynn and I talked to Sherry. Well, there's no money, there's no this and
that and the other thing, well we played around again hiring Kathy part
time and then we got uh, if we kept our part time for a long time. And
finally, Lynn thank goodness she said, she finally talked to Sherry. She
said, if you can't find money for, to keep Kathy chris, I know other
places that she can go because by that time Kathy graduated and and so
finally Sheriff Sheriff uh did finally uh he'd Lynne's advice and she was
able to cobble together. We gotta line for catholic christian. And that
was, that was the beginning of the explosion of the child drama because
other people knew and Lowell said we have Cathy it's time to send your
collections. So um I think you have a very famous leaf. Oh yes, yes, yes
we do. We have a leaf from the Gutenberg bible. And uh that uh that was
purchased by our friends of the library and uh that was seemed like such a
big purchase at the time. We were not big fundraisers was $15,000 at the
time. But our dear sweet local Scottsdale book dealer, George chamberlain
, he loved the library and he was he said, I'll sell it to you cheap. He
said I'll sell it to the friends cheap. And so the price of 15,000 at that
time, he could have gotten 18,000. Mhm. And but and he said he wouldn't
charge us any interest pay us as pay him as he got the money. It took us
about three years to pay the 15,000. I must confess we did Joyce Foster
was our library development officer at that time and she was out trying to
beat the bushes for and she'd go to various churches and ex exhibit belief
and they have a little cash box, you know, contribution and it was sort of
a penny ante sort of thing. But we didn't have anyone with deep pockets
come up and say and we were trying to encourage it didn't quite work out
if you wanted to underwrite the purchase of you know so many lines or
something didn't work out that way well, but anyhow, we finally got that
and uh And it's interesting to note, I think the last time, I looked that
was several years ago, it was probably about 15, Maybe even 20 years ago
that we did that. Uh But now the leaf from the Gutenberg is selling way
over like $60,
And so George did us a great favor. So a penny a day for the Gutenberg lee.
That's right. Exactly, Exactly, Exactly. Well, I first met you Maryland
when I was teaching music w geography course and I used to bring my
students over to special collections and you brought out some of the
interesting music materials that you had and I know one of them you dearly
loved. Would you like to, do you remember which one would you like to tell
us about that? I believe it was signed uh that which one was this? The
Gershwin? Yes. My, one of my favorite books in the library, uh the
songbook of uh Gershwin um and George Gershwin. And you open up the book,
it's beautiful leather bound book and it has a memorable songs, very
popular songs, that sort of thing. And it is signed by the artist. Um I
can see the name, but I can't pronounce it. It's a Russian name by the
artist. And then it is also signed by George Gershwin himself and this was
a book from Clare booth luce library which she gave us almost everything
and we understand that she sort of wanted to ask for this one back but
nobody gave him back. But George Gershwin had pinned a staff and with the
notes and uh words of the icing Baby and oh to have a book inscribed like
that to you by George Gershwin. Oh I cherished it. I know that
you also have some collections earliest connections with some other famous
people like fritz shoulder. Yes I had ladic or was he's so sweet. He um he
laddie was very um I liked laddie, he's another one of my favorite
president and he seemed to be uh cognizant aware, appreciative of special
collections and all. And um fritz shoulder had become very disillusioned
with a issue. Um He had worked with Marilyn, what was your last name in
the on the museum. Uh I've forgotten her last name. Uh It's easy to
remember her first window, I'll
think of it after this is over. Um He had loaned some of his sculptures
and paintings and all for a Bigfoot shoulder exhibit and when it was all
over um fritz had said you may keep this one sculpture for a S. U. And
Marilyn said I don't want it. She refused to take it wow well you know it
would be disillusioned with, it was terribly disillusioned. And Laddie had
still he didn't want to lose that friendship. That knowledge. And so
laddie had invited him at various times to meet with him, have lunch with
him or something like that. So one day they were on campus and Larry said
uh you know something that fritz had said about his collection, collecting
of old books which he did and all he said, you know you better go why
don't you go up and meet Marilyn words burger and she'll show you some of
the things. So they were going right by the library. And so laddie said oh
come on. So fritz came on up unannounced. And uh
and I realized I found out who he was and I wasn't so familiar with
shoulder paintings or shoulder anything at that time. But um I showed him
what we had recently acquired which was Bill Gates, I had bought a
manuscript, The Earl of Leicester hours over the manuscript and it could
be called the Gates manuscript. The last owner of the manuscript, but he
chose not to want to keep it, The Earl's name. And I showed that to fritz
and he was always said oh he said I could probably buy this. I said well
there may still be some copies left. So he went through that, he said,
well and I brought out some of the other, oh and he was fascinated. He
said oh I wish I had more time to spend. So um uh then uh just a few days
later I got a couple of catalogs that had just the sort of thing we've
been talking about from book dealers and I I sent them to him and he
called me up and thanked me and uh he said oh he said you know I ordered
something from one of those catalogs. He said that was that was a very
expensive thing for me. I said I'm glad you enjoyed. And about that time
the phoenix art museum was having a tour of homes in the valley and um one
of them was going to be for his shoulders and when I saw that I tried I
went down to try to buy a ticket and they were all sold out. The tour was
sold out and I and so I told him I said fritz I would love to be on the
forthcoming home tour but they were sold out. The library was sold out,
the museum was sold out. And um uh so I said I'll have to wait for the
next, next time they do this. He said you won't have to wait, he said why
don't you come up to my house, I'll give you a tour, we'll have lunch
together. And so we set a date and I went up so I got the full tour and uh
then I begin we began talking about his collection of course I couldn't
help but admire, oh his books, his paintings, his artifacts, his museum
and I o I was overwhelmed. And so we kept in touch. And um I said you know
fritz it would be fun to do an exhibit because I found out that he was
doing printing. That's another you know renaissance type man. He wanted to
do everything. He had a printing press. And I said show books not that you
have printed and then books about you and all of which there were several.
And he liked that idea. So we began to work on that exhibit. And um so we
had a great deal of friend and we did a library catalog of his exhibit. It
wasn't as good as my patent catalog because fritz wanted to retain too
much. Uh it wasn't really library enough resort research information
enough to qualify for one of the library prizes, that sort of thing. It
was a beautiful catalog, lovely. But it was fritz's catalog, not a library
catalog, but so we developed that catalog. We had a wonderful reception
again, the friends of the library and to see all that he had done and
exhibit. And he talked to us. And uh so we got very well acquainted that
uh throwing that and uh sometimes he'd just call up on a woman say why
don't you join me for lunch? And he and one time he picked me up in his
rolls Royce. That was that was very nice. But and then I went up to his
home several times and we talked about donation but he finally decided he
was going to give his stuff to the Smithsonian. That was, that was all
right. But in the meantime he did give us uh, he would send me his
christmas cards that he printed and he did give me one of the books he
printed, but the others I ended up buying after his death that they were,
they were available but to have that. So um I and I got to know, I just,
it was just a wonderful friendship that we had and we just, we can call up
and we just chat sometimes on the telephone. Now you also had some
experiences with helmet burn Shane. Yes. Oh yes, Helmet was great. They
hired him as a guest Professor of photography and when he learned about
our special collections, he came up to look and um when I finally, you
know, we signed it at that time, we signed in and register and all that
and I learned this is this famous man. Uh
So uh we had uh he would come up quite often. We got well acquainted and I
had him out to my house for dinner more than once and one time
he had the famous um photographer visiting him, oh my, oh well uh I I
don't remember the name but he said well I'm sorry I have to get and I
said well bring him along, friends Burkle or something like that. Uh and I
said well bring him, so I had two of the most famous photographers for
guests at my dinner table one night. And um helmet ended up giving us many
of the books that he had had published and printed. In fact he had two
visits here at the issue over a period of about five years. And um he
invited me to visit him in Switzerland and we did and
we uh he had never been, they lived right near the Villa dost and and so
we were going to stay there, we've gotten room. So they said well we'll
meet you at the train, we were taking the train and uh into uh and so they
met us at the train and took us to our hotel in uh Villa DST and his wife
Irene said I'm so glad to be here because helmet gets to come here all the
time for conferences and things and she said he's never brought me. So we
had dinner together and uh then uh the next day they came and picked us up
and we got to see helmets africa. He had started collecting african stuff
, he had a whole whole basement, it was not like a basement you'd imagine
, but air conditioned and beautifully finished and all that sort of thing.
And it was africa and uh one of the best collections and he was using
that to buy his citizenship in Switzerland. They were going to considering
having you have, he said as a german he had to buy his citizenship and his
collection might by his sister. I'm not sure exactly how all that worked
out. But he he died in Switzerland. He never got that's interesting. I
thought he was a swiss citizen. I know he realized he was german, he never
got it, never quite got it. But anyhow it was such a delight visiting him
and and his wife and him and all. It it was wonderful. That's been a
tradition in Switzerland for a long time. My great grandfather purchased
his swiss citizenship. Coming from Germany. Okay,
what are some of your other less pleasant memories shall we say of your
career? They assumed. Well um it was it was a sad day for me when special
collections was closed. Of course I was on my way out really. I was uh
first of all the beautiful room that we had there on the third floor was
closed and um I was still able and I and my staff, what little staff we
had was still able to work down there but we the door was locked. People
had to make an appointment to get in. We weren't we couldn't even have it
like I said the doorbell or something, you know, they put a film over all
windows so that nobody could see we were there. And uh we serviced books
from special collections up and down stairs in which they still do. They
still do up to the archives. And uh it um I was I was sorry what? I
thought that um Sherri Schmidt, the librarian could have done was to
retain that room as a as as a showplace library really was really was and
at least when I wanted to have receptions there or anything that you
wanted to sort of show off the library, that room was still beautiful. We
could have, you know, moved out. But she, when it was closed it was closed.
She wanted no more, nothing to happen there. And I was sorry uh to see
that happen. Oh I think there are other things that that for for whatever
reason I believe the night collection was transferred. Oh yes that was sad.
Uh Doctor kept when he was a librarian and red Henderson from the phoenix
public library uh realized that uh the night collection that had been
given by Alfred night to phoenix public really wasn't a public library
collection in the sense that phoenix public library was, they were not
phoenix public is not known for research, that sort of thing. And a issue
is and and uh the stakes Shakespeare scholars, there was a lot of
Shakespeare material in that are definitely here on campus A. S. U. Uh And
um all the other significant collections and uh doctor kept said don't
worry, he said you'll have it forever. Well yeah that then some different
people came in charge. Well redhead of the next, the next librarian wanted
to make phoenix public more like new york public. He wanted to make it
research. Well he never would have the money. Would never have all that.
But anyhow he they asked for the night collection back and we had to give
it back. And that was the saddest thing because various professors were
using those collections to build their courses dr gully Doctor of Dr
pursued various other Gene brink, Shakespeare scholars, all that sort of
thing. And they said we just we'll have to change our course is we can't
ask students to go down. We didn't have the light rail and to drive down
to phoenix public to see these books. Well when phoenix public remodeled
and they made the rare books room and they got a librarian. Well that
lasted for a short time. They no longer have a rare books librarian. You
have to make an appointment to see the rare books. And then that can maybe
on maybe on Thursday afternoon at 2:00 or something like that when
somebody's there, you don't have a choice, they tell you when you can come
as far as I understand. And so the books are bottled up there at phoenix
public where they were in use at a S. U. And it's that was Gene. Gene
brink was so cute she was she was wanted to see what we could do to get it
back and she uh wanted to argue for it and she wanted us all the
professors to join hands and form a human chain around the library when
the trucks came. So we will not let the books go fortunately this was not
organized, but it was a sad day. And then later on she wanted to borrow
some of the books back for a display. And all we did that and the hoops
they made us jump through. It was as though we couldn't we couldn't be
trusted with a single thing. We had to sign all these papers and this and
that and the other here. We've taken care of the books for all these years
, cataloged them done preservation. Where and yet we couldn't be trusted
to borrow that. I told Tina I don't ever want to do this again
of all your accomplishments. What what do you think is the most important
one? Well, probably the patent collection was one of the best things that
occurred. And I think our work with the library associates, the friends of
the library. And incurring favor of townspeople and their contributions.
Um they weren't large contributions, but um it were townspeople who cared
about the library. And it was wonderful to have this group of friends. And
I was I was delighted when dr kept, even though I wasn't the full
librarian and all. He recommended that I'd be on the board right away so
that I could be in on activities that they were doing. Um And uh there
were just uh there were so many, well there were just so many wonderful
things and and uh once in a while Sherry would have me do some reception
sort of things for people when they were coming. We did use the special
elections like that for a while and and those were the days before they
got real fussy about food and where it was coming from. And also I was, I
was always making cookies, cakes and whatever for whatever event,
literally thousands of students over the year. I'm curious what kind of
advice you might have given them in terms of career choices, whether
related to the library or related to their their degrees or just you know
how much influence a special collections curator has had. You know, I
really couldn't even don't even think of myself as having any any
influence on anybody, but you know Carla yelling, who is in, she just
retired from the english department. But she said she came into special
collections and she was still working on her undergraduate degree and all
and she was sort of interested in printing and books. And she said, uh she
told me this was just a few years ago she told me, she said Marilyn, you
took time and you showed me all these things, you answered all my
questions and she said you encouraged me to pursue what I uh really loved
and she did. And so that's one person I know positive feedback from, well
, there are thousands of, of those who haven't told you anything. And it's
it's just because you always gave of yourself and you you simply open the
collection to who, whatever their interest was.
And and the thing is, we always tried, it was never to impress them of the
, of the monetary value of a book. It was everything else, you know, be
the literary, the research, all that sort of value. And uh, we had such
wonderful relationship. I mean, the students would come back and they'd
say, oh, we're looking about for this sort of thing. Can you help me? And
, and sometimes they'd have some resource, you know, some, I'd say we'd
say can you do this? And you just bring out the truck of stuff, perhaps
they could do. And I think they were impressed when they got that kind of
attention.
And you're always so good to me in terms of getting, getting facsimile
editions of manuscripts that there was no way we could ever, by
the to santa Maria, we got to two different facsimiles. Yes, that was, yes
, that was quite a that was a marvelous collapsed. And I don't know where
you found that. Well, that was partly the friends that we went to and
sometimes I had some money in my budget and if I had a little money and
the friends had a little money, we could cobble it together and get
something right. Yes, I forgot you had been responsible for that. We have
been retired for a few years now. Tell us what's occupying your time. I'm
sure you're still making. Yes. Yes. I still like to cook. I still think uh
, one of the things is I I had been writing a history of the library and I
had written chapters one and two while I was still working and so I Uh
completed chapter three, which I just took a copy of to share in a copy
for the, excuse me for the archives. Uh, so, um, that's the main writing.
I've done that. I haven't, that isn't too much, but right now my husband
has Parkinson's, so I have to be there a lot. And working with caregivers.
Are there any topics that we haven't asked you about that you'd like to
share things good or bad?
I can't think of too much. Really. I I think we've covered more than I
ever expected to cover. I've digressed on several things, but I hope I
haven't
Well, I don't know how to thank you enough. You're just a fond of
information as you always have been since I've known you and it's it's
great that we're able to do this interview and talk with you today. Thank
you so much. Thank you for havingme