WEBVTT

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Today is February 29th 2012 and we're conducting an interview for the A. S.

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U. Retirees Association video history
project and we have a special guest

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with us, which I'll introduce in just
a moment. My name is Elmer Gooding

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and we have technical support staff
here. All volunteer that are doing the

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work behind the scenes. Roger carter
is doing the audio and video. Dave

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Schatz lee is doing the directing and
linda Vance coy, who's chair of our

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video history project is here as well
too. Help in any way that she can

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our special guest today. I'll let you
introduce yourself, Connie and tell

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us your name and okay, I'm Connie
MacNeil born Connie White. So Connie

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White, McNeil. Okay and How many years
were you at 30, 30 for 30 years?

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We're going to talk a lot about that
here. Although that's an argument

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because I was here for 30 academic
years and not three. It was short this

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summer for them to make 30 calendar
years. We'll we'll we'll allow you one

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summer short. Okay. Before we get
started on that though, I'd like to have

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you tell us just a little bit more
about yourself and your background and

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your family where you were born and
all that. Because the reason I'm

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asking that question is that I think a
issue is important because of the

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people that make up the the faculty
and staff here and so you're certainly

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one of those important people. So tell
us about your your beginnings um I

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was born in pullman Washington. That's
where Washington State University

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is. It's a small college town. My dad
was on the faculty. You know, I had

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, I guess what you'd think of as one
of those idyllic american childhoods

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. I had um, My parents, my mother
didn't work, it was in the 50s. Um Dad

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went, dad walked up to the campus
every day from our nice home and I

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walked home for lunch and I walked to
school and

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uh even when I was in high school and
the high school was on the other

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side of town, the other side of town
was still walking distance and I

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walked to high school and I went This
past summer to my 50th high school

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reunion And my high school class had
been about 120 people. And of that

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some 50 of us had gone through all 12

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First through 12th grade together
because it was a very stable small

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college town and you know, I had
friends in the neighborhood was, you know

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, it was in those days I could go out
and just play and run all over town

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and we were completely safe. There was
never any worry. And um, I adored

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my parents and I had an older sister
and a younger sister. Mom and dad had

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been very college oriented um for us.
And so that we were four years apart

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so that they could afford to send us
to college serially. And uh,

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you know, my um, my younger sister and
I are still very close even though

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we're distant and it's no longer much
of a distance isn't in years, but my

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older sister has passed away um But
yeah I had an idyllic childhood and um

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I did all kinds of stuff in high
school, the sports that women could enter

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, you know any kind of sport that the
women could participate in outside

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of, you know pe it was bad man, so I
did that and I played competitive

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badminton, went to tournaments and
stuff about the time I was getting

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ready to go to college, my dad was
promoted to Dean of the pharmacy

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college, so they felt they could
afford to send me to stanford and I had

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been admitted, so I went to stanford,
got my bachelor's degree in math And

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then worked at Stanford for 10 years,
my first year was a secretary

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because that was all I could get a job
doing. But a girlfriend of mine who

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had also been a math major had gone to
work for IBM

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and she felt that I was under employed
as a secretary and that I should do

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something else. And so she arranged
for me to take IBM aptitude test

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program or aptitude test, which was
really how people were hiring

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programmers in those days and I sent
the results both to the person she

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had wanted to have higher me and to
stanford and people at stanford said

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well and they offered me a job as a
trainee Programmers. So I worked there

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for 10 years. And when um I left, I
was manager of administrative

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computing services and in those days,
you know, you moved along pretty

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quickly because there weren't a lot of
us. Um and I left because I had

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married and my husband had finished
his PhD and got a job at Arizona State

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University, but tell me a little bit
more about what you did at stanford

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and that that role, were you still
using the cards, the punch cards and

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all of that back at that time? Yes. Um
we I came in just after they

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stopped wiring boards to do the
computing and we were using punched cards.

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We had a computer called the 1401. It
was an IBM and it didn't have any

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disk, it was all tape and card
readers. And so yes, we we wrote our

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programs on big big tablets that were
made for the purpose. Um it wasn't

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um cobalt at that time it was a
language that that stanford had developed

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called so pad, which was basically
just a tiny step up from machine

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language for The 1401. So carrying
those cards around, is that part of

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their physical fitness program. Yes.
And in fact the back problems I still

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have the day came when I was working
all night one night and I had three,

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the trays were this long, I had three
trays of cards and I was tired and I

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was hefting those to run them through
the card reader and out went my back.

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It's never been quite right since
then. Part of part of the occupational

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hazard. It was a lot of fun though. I
just really enjoyed it. So you were

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starting to tell me then you arrived
at A. S. U. When your husband

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accepted a position here? Yeah. He's
he got a job on the mechanical

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engineering faculty after he got his
PhD at stanford. Okay. I mean yeah at

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stanford. So were you married while he
was in school? You were there? Yes.

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Um We had met several years before we
married um and we're good friends,

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he was actually dating my roommate and
I was dating someone else, but we

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liked each other and eventually he um
went to the, into the Peace Corps.

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Um This was at the time of the Vietnam
War and it was an option that was

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right for him. Um and he spent three
years in Ghana and when he came back

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I said I basically said let's get
married and we did. And so yeah, and he

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had come back to stanford um sort of
both looking for me and looking for

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grad school opportunity and his old
college professor that he'd worked for

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in the summers took him on as a grad
student, was able to give him support.

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So he was able to get his PhD did that
in four years and then we came

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here. And what kind of role did you
have here at? Msu when you first

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arrived? What? Well that's kind of an
interesting thing when when barry

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got the, when barry was interviewing
for his job here. Um We I looked

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around and of course having worked at
stanford was thinking I'd like to

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work in the university here and
although my boss back at stanford said

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don't work for issue, it's a really
bad situation there. Yes, in in the

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computing environment and he said it's
really bad you won't be happy there.

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But I looked at the campus and I
thought it's gonna be hard to not want

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to work here. How bad can it be? So I
put in an application for database

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manager for which I was rather poorly
qualified but a couple three months

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later I got a phone call it was Lynn
bellamy and he offered me a job um

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over the phone, he hadn't even ever
met me. But um he had looked at not as

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the database manager, but he wanted to
hire me to be payroll project

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manager. They needed to put in a new
human resources system as we call it

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now. And so I got hired to do that.
This was in the summer of 1976 I

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started August of 76.

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Well I'm sure some of those problems
today issued got much better after

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you arrived. Well it turned out that
my boss whose name was mike roberts,

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I was thinking of the crew that had
been there a couple years earlier,

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just a year before I arrived. Or maybe
not even a full year. Lynn had been

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hired to come in and head up computing
services and he had brought Darryl

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s box with him. So they had both been
here under a year and when I came um

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they kind of, even though Lynn had
already offered me a job, they kind of

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gave me an interview and as the day
wore on, um that seemed to be very

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strange to me because I kept the
interview kept getting longer and longer

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instead of just an hour as I had been
expecting. Eventually I was there

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the whole day and what you know, you
have to know, Lynne to understand

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these things a little bit, which I
know you do

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and so what it turned out is the job
that was Head of Administrative

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Computing Services was open. And Lynn
was becoming interested in my

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qualifications for that after he met
me and so on. So, so this was like an

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instant promotion before you even had
your first job. Well, they went

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through, they had to go through the
hiring process and I didn't know what

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was going on. I really never did know
what was going on. I took the job as

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parral project manager and got started
and Lynn told me well interview for

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this Administrative computing
director, you won't get it because there's a

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person with the inside job and I
thought why should I do it then? But I

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did. And make a long story short um I
was promoted so I within two or

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three months

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so I did that for five years. Tell me
what what was your perception of a

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other than just computing, what was
your perception of A. S. U. And what

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was the campus like when you arrived
in 76? Well it was really different

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from stanford and in many, many ways.
Um and I uh it was

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one of the things that became very
apparent to me during my interview

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process and shortly thereafter was
that it was very male dominated. Um It

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was I was one of only two women out of
the 30 and computing services and

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every person I interviewed with was
male except for Helen gator. And they

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several of them made it sort of clear
to me that I shouldn't be

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interviewing for a job like that. And
Lynn showed me the reviews that he

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had received after I had interviewed
and only two people said he should

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hire me that Lynn being lenny did
anyway, it was very male dominated. It

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was

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dusty, I remember thinking it was
pretty dusty in august maybe. Yeah and

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but it was it was interesting, you
know, it's hard to separate how you

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feel about the institution from how
you feel about the department you got

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into and I love, I really loved Lynn
and Daryl and enjoyed working with

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him. But the staff I had was, well,
tell me more about the department, how

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advanced or lack of being advanced
worthy at that point. Well, they were

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in big trouble. Um that was a lot of
why men was brought in. I think it

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was administrative computing, which
means all of the systems. In those

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days, we didn't buy packages. We all
wrote our own, every university wrote

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their own programs to do their own
business. And

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this staff was,

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I don't know how they ever even got
into the profession because none of

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them really seem to know much about
how to go about designing and writing

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administrative systems for
universities and the systems were really

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struggling And and the department was
struggling. I think it, I think we

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had about 23 on my staff when I took
the job back at that time. The

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systems were all independent. So
student information system was

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independent of the administrative and
all the other areas. Well, we had,

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yeah, we had a separate housing
system. We had a student information

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system that was integrated in the
sense that it had admissions, financial

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aid and registration. All kind of
integrated payroll was a separate thing.

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And financial systems, there were
there were more than one financial

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system that were only loosely
integrated, but really the payroll system

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was the big, the payroll and the
student information systems were the big

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problems when I came on. But the thing
that the thing was that it wasn't

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just those systems that were the
problem, It was the whole environment. It

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was and maybe I thought this about AS.
U. two. Um, I was used to something

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I thought of as a very professional
environment, you know, in a production

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, we call it a production environment,
we knew the difference between

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development and something that was
going to run week in and week out and

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my staff that I had had no concept of
that. Um, they, they each just,

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there were no standards, there were no
procedures, there was nothing, each

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person just did whatever he or she
wanted and the production systems

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weren't ever kind of moved into a
state called production, they were just

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run whatever the programmer had, I
told the people to run. So my first

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thing I really had to do was um revamp
that whole environment so that

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people understood that you can't, that
the university is depending on this

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to run and you can't just mess around
with it then, you know, the night

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before registration, do something and
then have it not work. Um, which

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they were doing and you know, it was
really an eye opener and I did think

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the whole university was kind of
cowboy like that way, you know, you may

00:15:18.950 --> 00:15:26.950
remember, I guess you'd call it
cowboy, you know, I wasn't used to that.

00:15:27.340 --> 00:15:33.376
It was the staff open to your idea of
bringing in an outside vendor to

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bring all these systems together. I
didn't have that idea. It wasn't, no,

00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:41.876
no, it was early days then and I was
part of that time. I was part of that

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environment. No, my idea was to, you
know, get the staff together and and

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write the systems ourselves, which as
I say, nobody did anything else in

00:15:52.460 --> 00:15:56.217
those days. Maybe with the library. I
did advocate for purchasing a

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library system but you know, that's
what we did. Um, in a couple of years

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we had a payroll system and I had
hired a project leader um, for that who

00:16:05.139 --> 00:16:13.139
was a woman And in five years we had
an integrated student information

00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:17.236
system in, we had put it in in pieces
first registration, first admissions

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and registration, then financial aid
integrated. And that was also by a

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woman project leader named joan
miller. Um, and uh, who I saw recently on

00:16:28.899 --> 00:16:34.927
our issue retirees. I saw her obituary
go by, I'm sorry to say. But anyway

00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:41.787
, that's what we did. So we had a
completely homegrown Set of systems and

00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:44.917
kind of the interesting thing to me
was that that student information

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system that we finished putting in in
1981 again in those days after all

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thinking that the first systems any of
us were really writing, um, We're

00:16:56.250 --> 00:17:00.016
for the 1401 and then that computer
line died and we wrote all new after

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that and then that line died and we
wrote all new after that. We were all

00:17:03.970 --> 00:17:07.887
of the opinion that what we were
writing was good for Four or five years

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at the very most and then it'd be
replaced. Well that system in 1981 was

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fiddled with for the year 2000 And um
it lasted almost, it lasted 25 years.

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That's amazing. Yeah, it was, it was
well stretched by that point. Well,

00:17:27.670 --> 00:17:32.476
how did your career progress then from
the initial appointment that you

00:17:32.509 --> 00:17:39.897
got there? Well, um In 1981, I guess
it was the university went through

00:17:39.930 --> 00:17:44.657
some reorganization, I think that was
when um President Russ nelson came

00:17:44.690 --> 00:17:51.357
in I believe. And um he did quite a
bit of reorganizing. So my boss lin

00:17:51.390 --> 00:17:55.546
bellamy who had been head of computing
services was promoted to what was

00:17:55.579 --> 00:18:01.407
then called Information resources
management or I R. M. And had computing

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services and several other units
reporting to him and he promoted me to be

00:18:06.769 --> 00:18:11.316
head of computing services. Um So
that's what I did. I was noticing as I

00:18:11.349 --> 00:18:14.756
went over your resume that you must
have had to order out new business

00:18:14.789 --> 00:18:17.957
cards on a regular basis with all the
different, well there were title

00:18:17.990 --> 00:18:23.437
changes. Yeah, it was, But I stayed as
executive director of computing

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services for quite a long time. Um 10
years really sort of, I mean there

00:18:28.369 --> 00:18:34.687
were tidal changes in a few things and
during one of those years um Lynn

00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:39.957
went back to the faculty and ken
Pollack came in and took over for Lynn

00:18:39.990 --> 00:18:45.607
and then ken left, and the year after
ken left, I was head of the I. R. M.

00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.296
Organization as well as computing
services, you know, an interim

00:18:49.329 --> 00:18:52.766
appointment. So during that time
period you saw the advent of

00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:58.367
supercomputers uh and also the
computerization, maybe that should put that

00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:03.246
in quotation marks of the faculty.
Yes, yes, I think that would be a big

00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:09.367
undertaking. Yes. You know, it's just
amazing when you think at what

00:19:09.400 --> 00:19:17.197
things were like um really for the
first many years, um I was here, the,

00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:23.097
you know, the faculty used the
mainframe computer if they, but only those

00:19:23.130 --> 00:19:26.586
faculty who were in the sciences and
so forth. For the most part social

00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:31.726
sciences, it wasn't easy to use. Um We
really, at first they were bringing

00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:39.759
card decks even even in 1970s, um and
then um

00:19:40.140 --> 00:19:43.217
you know, there were a lot of fun and
interesting things, but really what

00:19:43.250 --> 00:19:47.306
computing services was doing at that
time and when it came into the notion

00:19:47.339 --> 00:19:52.377
of academic computing was helping
people effectively share that single

00:19:52.410 --> 00:19:57.256
computer resource, everybody, you
know, we had a lot of ways that it was,

00:19:57.289 --> 00:20:01.796
we were trying to be fair, so that no
one person would dominate and we

00:20:01.829 --> 00:20:06.496
spent a lot of time with the few, the
small percentage of the faculty that

00:20:06.529 --> 00:20:12.127
really was using that, and then as the
microcomputer started to develop um

00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:15.336
there was of course two schools of
thought, those that thought it was a

00:20:15.369 --> 00:20:19.276
fun toy and we shouldn't be wasting
our time on it. And those that thought

00:20:19.309 --> 00:20:22.717
maybe it was gonna be something and
maybe a lot of them didn't understand

00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:25.746
it as well as well and there were, you
know, the industry was still

00:20:25.779 --> 00:20:30.086
sorting itself out, um there were lots
of different brands Commodores and

00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:35.427
all other kinds of, remember all kinds
of computers with funny names to us

00:20:35.460 --> 00:20:41.637
now. And then IBM got in and decided
that they were gonna, that it was

00:20:41.670 --> 00:20:46.907
gonna be serious, they had a separate
division in boca raton um florida

00:20:46.940 --> 00:20:50.107
for microcomputers.

00:20:50.140 --> 00:20:56.236
And one of the most, You know,
interesting times for me was when uh this

00:20:56.269 --> 00:21:03.377
would be in 1986, the summer of 1986,
early in the spring, IBM came out

00:21:03.410 --> 00:21:08.576
with an offer that um if we could put
together a deal for 500

00:21:08.609 --> 00:21:15.336
microcomputers um we could get them at
a very much reduced price, Which I

00:21:15.369 --> 00:21:19.066
think, I don't know for sure, but
looking back, I'm guessing we were

00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:22.607
paying $3,000 a computer and we were
getting, you know, that would be what

00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:27.217
the microbes were, we're costing in
those days instead of what they cost

00:21:27.250 --> 00:21:32.707
now weigh less and I think we could
get them for a couple of 1000 if we

00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:39.316
Put this order of 500. Well that just
seemed impossible. But I decided I

00:21:39.349 --> 00:21:43.566
was going to try and that one of the
ways I would try to do it would I

00:21:43.599 --> 00:21:47.667
would be I would try to collaborate
with U. Of A and N. Au. I was allowed

00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:53.147
to do that and if they would buy in
and we could pull that and get 100

00:21:53.180 --> 00:21:58.586
then everybody would get the price.
Well um anyway, you said they'd like

00:21:58.619 --> 00:22:04.407
to join but of course you have a um
they were too good for us and they

00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:08.377
told me absolutely not, they thought
it was stupid and that they didn't

00:22:08.410 --> 00:22:12.236
think micro computers is the head of
their computing services, possibly it

00:22:12.269 --> 00:22:16.167
wasn't their idea. But

00:22:16.200 --> 00:22:20.836
I managed, I called all the, at that
time I was on Dean's Council and I

00:22:20.869 --> 00:22:28.506
was able to work with the Deans and
the department chairs and um get um

00:22:28.539 --> 00:22:36.539
the order put together and we we left,
each person really have a custom

00:22:37.940 --> 00:22:41.726
configuration was probably something
of a mistake. We really didn't know

00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:47.236
what we were doing and they all came
in And we were trying to get them set

00:22:47.269 --> 00:22:54.217
up for the fall of 1986 before classes
started Darrell bock and his crew

00:22:54.250 --> 00:22:59.306
was unpacking this truck full of stuff
and there was just there were parts

00:22:59.339 --> 00:23:03.377
and boxes absolutely everywhere, all
outside the building. We had it all

00:23:03.410 --> 00:23:07.437
cluttered up for several days and his
guys worked on, that took him the

00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:12.506
whole summer. And as a side note, the
guy that you've got fired for it, he

00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:19.526
lost his job because there must have
been a huge educational process that

00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:24.256
you all had to do as well for all the
faculty that, many of whom had never

00:23:24.289 --> 00:23:29.046
probably never had a laptop or a PC at
that time, not to mention ourselves.

00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:34.637
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's one
of the things that's kind of

00:23:34.670 --> 00:23:39.107
interesting about how things
progressed. Um,

00:23:39.140 --> 00:23:43.736
we didn't, we had been a central
organization providing all services.

00:23:43.769 --> 00:23:49.107
There weren't computing support people
in the units with the advent of the

00:23:49.140 --> 00:23:53.726
microcomputer that began to be a
little bit of a stress. And um, there was

00:23:53.759 --> 00:24:00.407
a lot of interest in, um, having some
technology support people in the

00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:08.440
units. And so, uh, I favored that. Now
we're the people still under your

00:24:08.450 --> 00:24:12.467
direction that were, that were farmed
out to the individual units or were

00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:16.276
they, I favored not having them do
that. I thought they'd be more

00:24:16.309 --> 00:24:20.667
responsive. And so we move people and
we did move, I mean, I didn't do it

00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:26.717
without any kicking and screaming at
all, but I began to see the light and

00:24:26.750 --> 00:24:33.026
we did move people actually out of our
staff on to the Dean's staff. Um,

00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:38.566
and they didn't report to us anymore.
We had a connection. Um, it was

00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:42.397
moderately successful, but um, you
know, they're needed, as you said,

00:24:42.430 --> 00:24:45.806
there needed to be a lot of training
of all concerned and some of the

00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:49.266
people that were supposed to be
supporting in the units were better than

00:24:49.299 --> 00:24:55.437
others and the deans and this is still
going on today. Um The dean

00:24:55.470 --> 00:25:01.207
sometimes ask, I know I believe
whatever it's called College of Human

00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:06.046
Humanities and Sciences I think has
asked the U. T. O. To provide all of

00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:11.056
their support again. Um So it goes
back and forth. Um They the dean's

00:25:11.089 --> 00:25:16.086
don't like to manage the technology
really, but they want control. So it's

00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:20.357
always been an interesting thing. Um
What what do you feel were some of

00:25:20.390 --> 00:25:24.467
the major accomplishments that you and
your staff made during your years

00:25:24.500 --> 00:25:28.806
here on the main campus or the Tempe
campus, I guess I should call it now.

00:25:28.839 --> 00:25:31.506
 Well um

00:25:31.539 --> 00:25:37.147
you know, I think we moved from this
really cowboy organization to what I

00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:44.306
like to think of as a very
professional organization. Um We um

00:25:44.339 --> 00:25:50.756
you know, in terms of anything
concrete um one of the things that I think

00:25:50.789 --> 00:25:58.407
of is that we were able to go through
the microcomputer revolution without

00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:04.657
um having to give up the support of
the super computers and the mainframe

00:26:04.690 --> 00:26:09.016
computers for those people who still
needed them. Um one of my own

00:26:09.049 --> 00:26:11.207
personal

00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:16.976
top accomplishments I think Is the
year um I think 1990 maybe in the 1991

00:26:17.009 --> 00:26:23.546
, it had to be 1990 that I did
actually succeed in working a deal with

00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:29.447
Cray and IBM. So we got two
supercomputers that year um instead of just an

00:26:29.480 --> 00:26:33.467
upgrade to our IBM mainframe for the
money I had in the budget for just an

00:26:33.500 --> 00:26:38.066
upgrade. So, you know, we did really
well in terms of the mainframe at the

00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:41.976
same time that we were creating
student computing sites with

00:26:42.009 --> 00:26:48.226
microcomputers in them and so forth.
Um you know, it was, but as a, as a

00:26:48.259 --> 00:26:52.026
body, you know, you think of the body
of work and as a body, I think the

00:26:52.059 --> 00:26:57.207
important thing was um like it was in
the rest of the university surviving

00:26:57.240 --> 00:27:03.006
explosive growth um, with um,

00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:08.097
you know, with out, you know,
basically having any major failures, I mean

00:27:08.130 --> 00:27:13.586
, we had failures and we had problems,
but we didn't, we didn't fail to

00:27:13.619 --> 00:27:18.117
register students or fail to pay
people at stanford that did happen. I

00:27:18.150 --> 00:27:22.717
when I put a new system in there, I
wasn't the project leader, it's early

00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:26.417
in my career, we, we didn't get the
payroll system up on schedule and

00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:33.217
nobody got paid, we wound up having to
manually pay people that yes, you

00:27:33.250 --> 00:27:37.286
don't want that. Um, I tried very hard
not to ever have that happen here

00:27:37.319 --> 00:27:41.367
and we didn't, we didn't have things,
one of the things I remember that

00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.786
was, you know, you have to laugh, you
have to laugh about in retrospect,

00:27:45.819 --> 00:27:51.397
but this was, you have a very special
laugh to.

00:27:51.430 --> 00:27:55.697
This was in the days when we now had
terminals out in, in the office is

00:27:55.730 --> 00:27:59.887
not in faculty offices at that yet. Um
that didn't come until after I was

00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:03.447
at west, but we had them in
administrative offices, terminals that people

00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:08.607
were using to inter payroll data and
access systems, but they are all what

00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:14.786
was called home run, they were cable
to the, to the computer center. Um

00:28:14.819 --> 00:28:19.437
each one was wired all the way through
to the computer center. Um, things

00:28:19.470 --> 00:28:22.697
are different now, but that's how it
was done in those days. So all the

00:28:22.730 --> 00:28:26.296
data was on the central, everything
was on the central computer and all

00:28:26.329 --> 00:28:30.657
the wiring was actually, you know, the
terminal itself actually was cabled

00:28:30.690 --> 00:28:35.357
through all the tunnels and everything
into the computer center and this

00:28:35.390 --> 00:28:42.707
was in the august and september
timeframe when we were having are monsoons

00:28:42.740 --> 00:28:48.857
and um, we had done some major
upgrades and expansions of the, of the

00:28:48.890 --> 00:28:52.617
terminal infrastructure of the
university and we were starting to have all

00:28:52.650 --> 00:28:55.766
these lightning storms

00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:01.076
and every time we had a major
lightning storm, some or all of the

00:29:01.109 --> 00:29:06.516
buildings, terminals went out and it
got, so that I would just pray that

00:29:06.549 --> 00:29:09.776
it wouldn't, we wouldn't have
lightning because we would have a major

00:29:09.809 --> 00:29:14.066
problem. Nobody could access anything,
Everything was down the next day

00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:17.306
and this went on, it seemed like
forever. But I'm sure it was only a

00:29:17.339 --> 00:29:23.607
couple of weeks until we finally got
the vendor to, um, of the terminals

00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:30.377
to acknowledge that there was a
problem with the way that the terminals

00:29:30.410 --> 00:29:35.097
were protected. The building wiring. I
mean the building wiring was

00:29:35.130 --> 00:29:39.586
interfering with the cables and you
know, you'd have this electric storm,

00:29:39.619 --> 00:29:42.496
it would come in and it would cause
interference and it would bring down

00:29:42.529 --> 00:29:47.137
the equipment. So they, they came and
installed something Darryl would be

00:29:47.170 --> 00:29:50.546
able to tell you what it was, I can't
remember, but they installed

00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:54.556
something on every single one of those
cables. And as they got that

00:29:54.589 --> 00:29:58.697
installed for all of those terminals,
we stopped having them go down. But

00:29:58.730 --> 00:30:03.847
it was just, it was scary and we, we
put up a big poster in our hallway of

00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:08.367
a, of a one of those beautiful posters
of all the lightning strikes coming

00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:14.586
down, you know, just, just a joke with
ourselves. Just a reminder. Did you

00:30:14.619 --> 00:30:18.066
have a little byline? My Lord, that's
had sleepless nights or something.

00:30:18.099 --> 00:30:24.177
It spoke for itself. We all knew we
didn't need any reminders. Mac versus

00:30:24.210 --> 00:30:32.210
PC. That's a question.

00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:38.207
How did that topic go through your
history.

00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:44.986
I always felt once those became the
established two players, um, I always

00:30:45.019 --> 00:30:52.006
felt that they should both be
supported. Um, there were faculty who really

00:30:52.039 --> 00:30:56.306
wanted to use a Mac for a variety of
reasons. Some of the reasons were,

00:30:56.339 --> 00:31:00.607
you know, inarguable. The software
they wanted to use only ran on a Mac.

00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:08.640
And so we always tried to support
both. Um, at the event and I always did

00:31:08.670 --> 00:31:11.617
support both. I remember one of the
first things that happened when I got

00:31:11.650 --> 00:31:16.296
to the west campus was the dean of
the, of the business group. It wasn't

00:31:16.329 --> 00:31:20.907
called a college at the time, I don't
think um,

00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:25.566
came to me and said he had a faculty
member who wanted a Mac computer. And

00:31:25.599 --> 00:31:29.387
what did I think? I said, well, what
do you know, why not? Why shouldn't

00:31:29.420 --> 00:31:34.367
he have it? Well, he said then you pay
for it and I did, I would have

00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:38.976
never done that in Tempe, but at West
I was, things were different. So I

00:31:39.009 --> 00:31:44.207
bought the guy a computer and he's
been a friend for life,

00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:49.306
his name is Phil meets, he's very
instrumental in the,

00:31:49.339 --> 00:31:53.326
okay, I'm losing the thought of this.
Um, anyway, it's a big ball and

00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:58.506
there was a big article in the paper
recently about the pizza ovens at um

00:31:58.539 --> 00:32:03.697
, it's not the Salvation Army. Anyway,
I can't think of a saint Vincent,

00:32:03.730 --> 00:32:10.506
that's it ST Vincent de paul Phil.
Anyway, I think that um, personally I

00:32:10.539 --> 00:32:15.986
used a Mac for a number of years and
then it just became not suitable for

00:32:16.019 --> 00:32:20.887
what I needed to do. And so I switched
to pc. And I also, I've always,

00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:25.036
when I do use a Mac, I have a lot of
trouble with it because for a

00:32:25.069 --> 00:32:29.107
computing type person, a lot of this
stuff is hidden and it's harder to,

00:32:29.140 --> 00:32:33.877
it's harder to get at what I want to
be able to get at on it, but for some

00:32:33.910 --> 00:32:38.127
people um it's it's the right tool and
I still feel that way haven't

00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:42.847
changed my mind a bit. We did have
some classrooms at West for a long time

00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:47.957
that had max as the presenter, you
know, the faculty workstation as it

00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:52.447
were in the classroom, because we had
some people that wanted to use them

00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:57.627
, but over time those just got used
less and less and we eventually didn't

00:32:57.660 --> 00:33:02.836
have any um but what we did was
support if you had a laptop we had plug in

00:33:02.869 --> 00:33:06.677
so you could bring that in and use
your own Mac. You've mentioned a couple

00:33:06.710 --> 00:33:10.746
individuals that were ones that had an
impact on your career. Are there

00:33:10.779 --> 00:33:15.536
any other individuals or you want to
say anything more about?

00:33:15.569 --> 00:33:19.967
Well, well Darrell and Lynn were
certainly the big guys on the block for

00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.736
me um you know, they were the ones I
worked most closely with. Um I worked

00:33:24.769 --> 00:33:29.397
with, I guess one other person that
was very instrumental um in many ways

00:33:29.430 --> 00:33:34.907
for me was Roland Hayden, who was Dean
of Engineering for many years um

00:33:34.940 --> 00:33:38.627
When I was head of computing services,
which as I say was for 10 years,

00:33:38.660 --> 00:33:46.506
give or take depending on how you want
to call that changes in titles,

00:33:46.539 --> 00:33:54.467
I had an advisory committee um of
Deans and sometimes Dean's delegates,

00:33:54.500 --> 00:33:59.597
but for much of the time it was
actually the Dean's themselves. And um,

00:33:59.630 --> 00:34:04.066
you know, they helped us plan policies
and make decisions about what was

00:34:04.099 --> 00:34:07.957
going to be done in the area of
computing because there's a lot of money,

00:34:07.990 --> 00:34:10.876
as you remember, Elmer, you were
important too, because we worked with the

00:34:10.909 --> 00:34:17.086
money a lot. Um, and Allen carol, you
know, we were always working on the

00:34:17.119 --> 00:34:23.267
money together. But anyway, um, Roland
chaired that committee one year and

00:34:23.300 --> 00:34:29.447
this was fairly late because ken
Pollack was on the scene and we were

00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:34.867
having a meeting and there was some, I
can't remember, I really can't

00:34:34.900 --> 00:34:39.467
remember what the discussion was
about. It had something to do with Apple

00:34:39.500 --> 00:34:45.307
and some kind of grant that Apple
wanted to do or something like that. And

00:34:45.340 --> 00:34:53.340
Roland was being very difficult and
um, I thought was way off track about

00:34:55.539 --> 00:35:02.427
what this issue was and I said
something to that effect and oh man, um he

00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:08.057
just hit the fan, he got up and said
he didn't have to take this and he,

00:35:08.090 --> 00:35:12.626
and he wasn't gonna chair this
committee anymore and he stomped out and I

00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:16.506
just felt absolutely horrible. In
fact, I went back to my office and I

00:35:16.539 --> 00:35:21.287
cried for an hour. I just felt so bad
that I had created this big problem

00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:25.947
because Roland was important and he
was important to us. And of course ken

00:35:25.980 --> 00:35:29.947
came and we wrote a letter and talked
to Roland and he was very nice about

00:35:29.980 --> 00:35:33.117
it and he said, believe me, I've done
far worse. And we got over after

00:35:33.150 --> 00:35:37.836
that Roland and I were friends and
worked together very well and he was

00:35:37.869 --> 00:35:41.436
very helpful on many things, including
helping getting the funding for the

00:35:41.469 --> 00:35:47.606
computing commons. So other questions,
Yes. Um

00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:53.706
from my vantage point on campus, I
just saw I. T over there in there,

00:35:53.739 --> 00:35:58.367
computing comments in the empire and I
knew Bill Lewis but I didn't know

00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:01.666
all the other players and you didn't
mention Bill Lewis, I knew Darryl

00:36:01.699 --> 00:36:07.606
Fischbach, but how about give me some
of the leadership changes. Bill was

00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:12.657
up there somewhere. Well, Bill Bill
was very late in my, Bill took over

00:36:12.690 --> 00:36:18.947
really after I went to West when I,
you know, I worked for Lynn and then I

00:36:18.980 --> 00:36:23.927
, I was head of computing services and
Darryl was head of telecom services

00:36:23.960 --> 00:36:29.697
, we were peers and ken Pollack took
over from Lynn for the head of the

00:36:29.730 --> 00:36:35.586
two of us, you know, we, we reported
to him Darrell and I and then when

00:36:35.619 --> 00:36:39.296
ken left um

00:36:39.329 --> 00:36:43.427
there are stories about that too, but
let me forget forget that when ken

00:36:43.460 --> 00:36:49.706
left, um I took over for a year as
head while they were searching. Um so

00:36:49.739 --> 00:36:54.177
Darryl reported to me for that one
year and then they searched and hired

00:36:54.210 --> 00:37:00.157
really to replace, basically ken at
the head of I r. M, which again Darryl

00:37:00.190 --> 00:37:06.296
and I reported to and um

00:37:06.329 --> 00:37:13.546
when ken left, it was again vacant
while they decided what to do when I

00:37:13.579 --> 00:37:19.137
mean lee lee ah lee when lee left. So
for that I was already at West and

00:37:19.170 --> 00:37:24.526
working at West by then. So for that
for for that year, right after lee

00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:32.559
was removed, Dear Bill and I worked
together, I was asked to come to Tempe

00:37:32.820 --> 00:37:40.467
in addition to working at West and co
lead the I am Bill and I renamed it

00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:45.896
at that time organization And Bill
took the academic computing part and I

00:37:45.929 --> 00:37:51.626
took the administrative in the
mainframe computing operations part. And um

00:37:51.659 --> 00:37:56.427
we worked together that year and at
the end of that year Bill became the

00:37:56.460 --> 00:38:01.327
head of the organization and I went
back to West full time and then Bill.

00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:06.967
Bill, was it until Adrian Sandler was
hired. Can you give us a synopsis

00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:10.887
of Darryl? S bach? He seemed to be

00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:15.617
longstanding person there and seem to
do a lot of things with

00:38:15.650 --> 00:38:22.276
telecommunications. How about just a
little Well Darrell, when I was hired

00:38:22.309 --> 00:38:27.017
um Darrell had

00:38:27.050 --> 00:38:30.967
kind of left out a guy I was thinking
about it. Darrell had what we called

00:38:31.000 --> 00:38:36.736
operations, which meant the, the
equipment, the machine room, the

00:38:36.769 --> 00:38:41.916
mainframes, the people that actually
ran the mainframes and the

00:38:41.949 --> 00:38:45.307
communications network such as it was
at that time, I had the

00:38:45.340 --> 00:38:48.677
administrative computing, which was
the development and writing of all the

00:38:48.710 --> 00:38:53.977
programs that the administration used
and there's a guy named max ivy that

00:38:54.010 --> 00:38:58.807
was responsible for the academic
computing, which meant the support, the

00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:03.376
direct support to the faculty, the
educational mission, all of the

00:39:03.409 --> 00:39:06.577
outreach to the faculty and the
support of the faculties use of the

00:39:06.610 --> 00:39:12.546
computers. So that was what Darryl did
when I was first there um um over

00:39:12.579 --> 00:39:17.637
the course of time, um we hired
somebody else. We hired a guy named Bruce

00:39:17.670 --> 00:39:24.756
johnson to take over operations and
Darryl focused on the communicate the

00:39:24.789 --> 00:39:28.727
growing communications network and the
phone network. He did that he was

00:39:28.760 --> 00:39:35.177
responsible for the phone system as
well. And um one of the things that

00:39:35.210 --> 00:39:41.086
Daryl had um all for a long time was
the thing he called the tech shop

00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:47.697
that um did the repair of
microcomputers. Um so he had the communications

00:39:47.730 --> 00:39:52.497
network, he had the phone network and
he had that tech shop for most of

00:39:52.530 --> 00:39:58.086
the rest of the years that I worked
with him. And really um at at one at

00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:01.677
some point the tech shot became

00:40:01.710 --> 00:40:05.537
something that wasn't effective
because there were so many microcomputers

00:40:05.570 --> 00:40:09.577
out there and there were other better
ways to deal with it than to have a

00:40:09.610 --> 00:40:14.847
single central constrained resource
trying to be responsible for repairs.

00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:18.727
And so the tech shop was basically
abolished and Darrell had the

00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:22.876
communications networks and the and
the and the phone infrastructure of

00:40:22.909 --> 00:40:26.847
course over time the importance of the
phone network has deteriorated

00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:31.756
substantially too because people
don't, the wired phones aren't being used

00:40:31.789 --> 00:40:36.677
in the dorms where all the money was
coming from. Um So that was what

00:40:36.710 --> 00:40:42.227
Darryl did and he, you know Daryl and
Daryl had a you know, we we worked

00:40:42.260 --> 00:40:47.436
as a team, we all had our hands in
each other's business a lot. Um you

00:40:47.469 --> 00:40:54.776
know, um but that's what Daryl did.
Was there anything

00:40:54.809 --> 00:40:58.327
The more that you'd like to tell me
about your department as it progressed

00:40:58.360 --> 00:41:03.427
over that 10-year period obviously
developed a lot during that time? Well

00:41:03.460 --> 00:41:06.867
yeah, I do have a couple of other
things that are sort of I think

00:41:06.900 --> 00:41:14.900
interesting the the department just
grew like crazy we added because the

00:41:15.099 --> 00:41:19.566
university was expanding. But also the
whole notion as as we talked about

00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:23.506
of what computing support needed to
include. I mean first it was just a

00:41:23.539 --> 00:41:27.486
mainframe computer with some terminals
in a central area. Then it was a

00:41:27.519 --> 00:41:32.126
mainframe computer with terminals all
over the place. And then it was, you

00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:35.486
know, the microcomputers added to that
and student microcomputers and so

00:41:35.519 --> 00:41:38.597
forth. So it was just growing like
crazy. And the number of administration

00:41:38.630 --> 00:41:42.847
administrative systems we supported
was growing. So the department went

00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:46.307
from what I think was in the
neighborhood of under 60 people when Lynn and

00:41:46.340 --> 00:41:51.986
I and Darryl first started 2 275
people over the space of the 15 years. I

00:41:52.019 --> 00:42:00.019
was on the Tempe campus. And so space
to house the people was an enormous

00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:05.847
problem. Yes. And I don't know if you
remember what some of our solutions

00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:13.157
were, But at one point um we decided
that we could put the administrative

00:42:13.190 --> 00:42:19.046
computing group out in that renovated
motel out on Apache Road. Um The

00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:23.467
police were on the lower level and we
put administrative computing on the

00:42:23.500 --> 00:42:28.336
upper level and they weren't very
happy. The building didn't collapse. It

00:42:28.369 --> 00:42:32.497
did. It did yes. As a matter because
there were issues, as a matter of

00:42:32.530 --> 00:42:36.137
fact they hadn't been in, you know, we
had it renovated but of course not

00:42:36.170 --> 00:42:41.677
really renovated for that kind of
occupancy. It was a former motel and

00:42:41.710 --> 00:42:45.287
they hadn't been in there a year. I
don't think maybe it was a year when

00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:51.597
um it was found unsafe because of
termite damage. And I had I had this

00:42:51.630 --> 00:42:57.186
whole staff, I had 50, 60 people in
there and so I had to find something

00:42:57.219 --> 00:43:02.077
else for them. And I don't know who
actually came up with the idea but it

00:43:02.110 --> 00:43:07.677
was to temporarily move them into more
hall which the the central had been

00:43:07.710 --> 00:43:11.666
the basketball arena. And so at some
point in the past, so it was on the

00:43:11.699 --> 00:43:16.776
basketball floor we put up cubicles
and and got everybody in there. It was

00:43:16.809 --> 00:43:21.577
just a massive scramble and got
everybody in there in the MARS program.

00:43:21.610 --> 00:43:25.677
People were mighty unhappy because
they had been promised that space. We

00:43:25.710 --> 00:43:29.626
had him in there long enough to
renovate space in what was at the time,

00:43:29.659 --> 00:43:33.967
the purchasing building. And we got
him in there later. But that was the

00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.597
whole kind of reason for the computing
commons. We do. I just had people

00:43:37.630 --> 00:43:42.026
all over the university had three
people here and five people there and 60

00:43:42.059 --> 00:43:45.706
people here. And you know, it was just
we couldn't be together. It was

00:43:45.739 --> 00:43:51.097
just the space wars are I always felt
very scarred by that. I remember

00:43:51.130 --> 00:43:55.106
once actually looking at the women's
bathroom and thinking if I could cut

00:43:55.139 --> 00:44:01.796
off an end of it and get an office out
of it. You know,

00:44:01.829 --> 00:44:08.756
we didn't have the women's bathroom,
had more space in it than the

00:44:08.789 --> 00:44:12.916
yeah, we had trailers out on palm
block. I mean we we did everything we

00:44:12.949 --> 00:44:16.256
could and we had those for so many
years we did everything we could think

00:44:16.289 --> 00:44:21.776
of to house all these people. I
remember um I think it was Jack Kinzinger

00:44:21.809 --> 00:44:27.066
saying to me one time when I put in
another budget request, he said why is

00:44:27.099 --> 00:44:31.436
it that Every time I ask you to do
something you always say, okay, but

00:44:31.469 --> 00:44:35.126
I'll need to more people. Why can't
you ever do anything with your new

00:44:35.159 --> 00:44:39.807
with your existing staff? And I think
that was actually at the time I just

00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:44.506
thought well what does he know? But
later on I realized he was right and I

00:44:44.539 --> 00:44:50.686
got really involved in the quality
movement and and at the West Campus I

00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:56.867
started with 25 people And who had no,
I mean I had 25 budget lines, not

00:44:56.900 --> 00:45:02.287
25 people and no function, nothing
installed, just a fresh clean slate.

00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:06.157
And I ended with that same number of
people with a very significant

00:45:06.190 --> 00:45:10.396
function and infrastructure. I learned
how to, you know, how to do more

00:45:10.429 --> 00:45:14.646
with less and use team team
management. So you mentioned the computer

00:45:14.679 --> 00:45:19.977
commons. Yeah, what was that actually
finished after you moved? Yes, but

00:45:20.010 --> 00:45:24.086
you obviously were involved in some of
the planning, I assume. Um yeah,

00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:32.119
actually it may have precipitated my
move to west. I I did um I did with

00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:36.836
Roland and everybody else's help, but
I was the spearhead from the

00:45:36.869 --> 00:45:42.046
computing services standpoint, get
that building uh funded um you know, I

00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:45.977
worked on it for many years because of
our space problems and I did get

00:45:46.010 --> 00:45:50.597
that far and about the time we had the
funding and we're ready to get

00:45:50.630 --> 00:45:55.816
started with when leon was hired and
so I was still there for a year,

00:45:55.849 --> 00:46:00.517
maybe, I can't remember exactly, but a
year, maybe two years, um just a

00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:04.827
year I think, and we were doing the
building planning at that time and um

00:46:04.860 --> 00:46:07.296
you know, there were a lot of
different opinions about how the building

00:46:07.329 --> 00:46:13.026
ought to, ought to be configured in my
opinion, didn't win. And I felt

00:46:13.059 --> 00:46:17.517
unhappy enough about that, that I
thought, you know, I just really have to

00:46:17.550 --> 00:46:20.356
get out of here, you know, I can't go
around being grumpy all the time

00:46:20.389 --> 00:46:25.936
because I don't get my own way, I got
to get out of here um, in the

00:46:25.969 --> 00:46:30.546
programming of the computer commons
building, you said you had a different

00:46:30.579 --> 00:46:38.066
idea than what actually was
implemented. What was your idea? Well, what

00:46:38.099 --> 00:46:42.276
was implemented, I was fine with for
the most part, um I think having the

00:46:42.309 --> 00:46:46.126
commons downstairs was in the, in the
classrooms around at the meeting

00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:51.157
rooms around it was, it was great. Um
I was all for that, as you can tell

00:46:51.190 --> 00:46:55.347
from the way I talked about the space
wars, my big concern, however, was

00:46:55.380 --> 00:47:03.006
housing, getting all of the staff
housed in that building and um and I

00:47:03.039 --> 00:47:09.177
wanted them to be housed comfortably
and I wasn't convinced that the open

00:47:09.210 --> 00:47:15.387
plan offices were a good solution for
them, they were going to be, and

00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:19.416
that's what was done was the open
plan, it was over that, that I had my

00:47:19.449 --> 00:47:26.677
biggest um disagreement, I didn't
think that was very nice housing for

00:47:26.710 --> 00:47:31.037
professionals and I wanted them to
have offices with windows, you know,

00:47:31.070 --> 00:47:35.177
and it wasn't practical or no doubt,
I, you know, they, they did find it,

00:47:35.210 --> 00:47:40.467
I had an office in the commons for a
long time because after I, while I

00:47:40.500 --> 00:47:45.977
was still on the Tempe campus, I um
decided I really wanted to get my

00:47:46.010 --> 00:47:53.026
Masters degree and actually figured
out that I needed to do it in

00:47:53.059 --> 00:47:56.526
something other than math because by
this time, which was well over 20

00:47:56.559 --> 00:48:00.486
years since I've been in college, I no
longer could remember anything,

00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:05.376
that you know even I couldn't do
simple calculus, I mean I was completely

00:48:05.409 --> 00:48:10.186
hopeless, I would have had to start
all over and so I said if I was going

00:48:10.219 --> 00:48:13.896
to do it, I had small Children, if I
was going to do it I had to pick

00:48:13.929 --> 00:48:17.597
something that I would really love or
I would just not be able to stick to

00:48:17.630 --> 00:48:25.630
it. So through a variety of things,
I've picked english linguistics and

00:48:25.869 --> 00:48:30.756
and had dan brink as my faculty
advisor, wonderful guy, I just adored dan

00:48:30.789 --> 00:48:36.206
, I'm so sad when he passed, but dan
was just great to work with and in

00:48:36.239 --> 00:48:40.517
fact later on I hired dan to work for
RM for a year when he was desperate

00:48:40.550 --> 00:48:44.907
for a change, but um so I did my
degree in english linguistics, I didn't

00:48:44.940 --> 00:48:48.887
finish it until I was on the west
campus and they were kind enough to let

00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:52.347
me have an office on the Tempe campus.
Both were when I was here for here

00:48:52.380 --> 00:48:57.486
, yeah, here, I guess for meetings and
when I had to come down to go to

00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:04.526
class um but yeah, I didn't, I wanted
the staff to be together, I wanted

00:49:04.559 --> 00:49:09.177
them to all have the same kind of
housing. We before we had people with

00:49:09.210 --> 00:49:12.546
good housing and people with bad
housing and people with termite housing

00:49:12.579 --> 00:49:17.097
and you know, I wanted everybody to
and I remember I actually had a

00:49:17.130 --> 00:49:20.566
disagreement with Elmer at that time.
Um he probably doesn't remember this

00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:26.026
, but um you know, I was so protective
about the space and while the

00:49:26.059 --> 00:49:29.666
building was getting built um and I
could see and being programmed, I

00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:32.497
could see that there was with the
commons on the ground floor, there was

00:49:32.530 --> 00:49:37.637
just barely gonna be room to house all
the staff we had at that time. And

00:49:37.670 --> 00:49:40.327
meanwhile there were space problems
all over everybody else was having

00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:45.017
problems too. And Elmer had suggested
that the second one of the floors be

00:49:45.050 --> 00:49:47.997
set aside, or a big portion of one of
the floors be set aside as

00:49:48.030 --> 00:49:53.416
transition space as people's space was
being remodeled elsewhere. And it

00:49:53.449 --> 00:49:56.146
was perfectly good idea, but I don't
want any part of that because it

00:49:56.179 --> 00:49:59.916
would mean we didn't have enough
space, you know, for the staff and we did

00:49:59.949 --> 00:50:03.157
were able to keep the space and now
the staff is reduced enough. I think

00:50:03.190 --> 00:50:05.967
there are other things going on in
that building. Let's talk about the

00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:09.577
west campus. And when you made that
move. And yeah, you started

00:50:09.610 --> 00:50:13.686
essentially with a blank sheet of
paper and I did it from there. I did

00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:17.416
tell me more about how that all
evolved and well, it was another case of

00:50:17.449 --> 00:50:20.456
coming into a place where there was a
little bit of a staff, but no

00:50:20.489 --> 00:50:26.367
leadership and um, you know, I was,
even though I've been a manager for

00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:31.057
many years, I was pretty darn naive
about one problem, which was that the

00:50:31.090 --> 00:50:35.956
fibers. So staff that I did have
turned out as I learned later all to have

00:50:35.989 --> 00:50:40.767
drug and alcohol problems and I didn't
recognize it. I didn't know that

00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:45.336
was going on. So it took me quite
awhile to kind of get a functional staff.

00:50:45.369 --> 00:50:50.967
Um, anytime we interviewed anybody
new, they would kind of scare them

00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:55.427
away if they could see they weren't
going to join the club.

00:50:55.460 --> 00:51:00.436
I think they did. And I again all
naive me didn't know what was going on.

00:51:00.469 --> 00:51:05.276
But um, eventually we got that sorted
out and we got a good staff, but

00:51:05.309 --> 00:51:09.747
you know, it was actually, it was just
an awful lot of fun. It was, it was

00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:16.347
, it was scary and difficult at first,
but um, it's a very collegial small

00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:20.867
town feel to it at the west campus and
we were all excited about what we

00:51:20.900 --> 00:51:25.586
were doing and um, there was actually
enough money to do the kinds of

00:51:25.619 --> 00:51:29.796
things I, I thought we ought to be
doing and we were able to, you know,

00:51:29.829 --> 00:51:34.747
get every faculty office wired. I do
remember that when I arrived, we were

00:51:34.780 --> 00:51:40.427
, they had moved on to the the final
campus instead of at the Montessori

00:51:40.460 --> 00:51:43.347
school. I never was at the Montessori
school where it had been housed

00:51:43.380 --> 00:51:46.227
previously, but

00:51:46.260 --> 00:51:50.037
the only buildings were the library

00:51:50.070 --> 00:51:54.236
and a classroom building. And so all
of the faculty and staff were housed

00:51:54.269 --> 00:51:59.557
in trailers and the other buildings,
the other classroom building and

00:51:59.590 --> 00:52:03.767
what's called the faculty
administration building were being built and I

00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:08.006
remember looking out my window and
going, please slow down come storm,

00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:12.597
make them stop working because I
haven't had time to figure out how to get

00:52:12.630 --> 00:52:16.557
the technology infrastructure into
those buildings and I didn't, you know

00:52:16.590 --> 00:52:21.836
, they went up with whatever. Now
Darrell had worked with them some and so

00:52:21.869 --> 00:52:25.586
there were communications closets, you
can count on Darrell for that. But

00:52:25.619 --> 00:52:29.267
a lot of what else I would have wanted
to do, we had to retrofit like you

00:52:29.300 --> 00:52:34.416
would in any old building. Well now
you were involved out there and also

00:52:34.449 --> 00:52:38.356
some of the new buildings that took
place and planning for that. I'm sure

00:52:38.389 --> 00:52:41.847
that was those were the main buildings
and they were there for those, we

00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:47.467
had the five buildings for the book of
my time there, but in the last two

00:52:47.500 --> 00:52:51.597
or three years that I was there um we
did get money to build well the

00:52:51.630 --> 00:52:56.336
dorms. Um the start of the dorms and
also the what we call the second half

00:52:56.369 --> 00:53:01.566
of the classroom lab, computer
classroom building and um yeah, I had a lot

00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:05.287
of fun working on that project. I got
to be on the building committee that

00:53:05.320 --> 00:53:10.267
time I, you know, in West, we weren't
so constrained about what our roles

00:53:10.300 --> 00:53:14.546
were. B we were smaller and so I
didn't have to just worry about the

00:53:14.579 --> 00:53:18.896
technology, I could worry about the
pedagogy and you know, do things like

00:53:18.929 --> 00:53:22.947
, you know, talk with the faculty
about what arrangement they wanted for

00:53:22.980 --> 00:53:26.697
the, you know, do they want tiered
classrooms? Do they want flat

00:53:26.730 --> 00:53:30.037
classrooms? How many big ones? How
many little ones? How many little team

00:53:30.070 --> 00:53:35.666
rooms? And um we are and we had a lot
of we had a lot of fun and I think I

00:53:35.699 --> 00:53:41.316
did have a very modern, successful
building go up. Yeah. And you hadn't we

00:53:41.349 --> 00:53:44.287
hadn't talked about classrooms before,
but that must have been an

00:53:44.320 --> 00:53:47.296
additional challenge, not only here,
but on the west campus to get all of

00:53:47.329 --> 00:53:53.997
them mediated. So that was that was
what I did from the last I would say

00:53:54.030 --> 00:53:57.796
four or 5 years of my career with over
the years, I focused on different

00:53:57.829 --> 00:54:01.336
things. I said I started an
administrative computing. And then I when I

00:54:01.369 --> 00:54:04.887
took over computing services. The
thing I didn't know was academic

00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:08.637
computing and so I didn't spend much
more time on the administrative, I

00:54:08.670 --> 00:54:13.026
had people I knew there and I was
scared stiff honestly when I first took

00:54:13.059 --> 00:54:16.907
it over, but I learned about it and
then I had to learn telecom when I

00:54:16.940 --> 00:54:23.497
went to west because I was a little
more on my own. But um, yeah, the

00:54:23.530 --> 00:54:27.177
thing I spent my time on and got
really interested in the last few years

00:54:27.210 --> 00:54:31.697
was classrooms and how they're used
pedagogic lian classroom technology

00:54:31.730 --> 00:54:38.557
and we had every classroom mediated.
Um, we had long before the Tempe

00:54:38.590 --> 00:54:42.307
campus had very many mediated.
Honestly. Again, we were lucky, we were

00:54:42.340 --> 00:54:46.727
smaller and we had enough money and
people were very supportive. And I

00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:51.577
remember when Adrian senior who, you
know, was the previous to now

00:54:51.610 --> 00:54:58.387
university technology officer came out
to see me, um, he was very, he was

00:54:58.420 --> 00:55:03.526
very taken and I think not pleased
that we were so successful in having

00:55:03.559 --> 00:55:06.637
all those mediated classrooms because
he felt like we were getting an

00:55:06.670 --> 00:55:13.907
unfair share of the resources as well
as talking about a studio. Yeah,

00:55:13.940 --> 00:55:21.940
yeah, he roger helped us a few times.
Um, we had um, video studio that

00:55:22.940 --> 00:55:29.006
it was kind of a strange deal. We had
a, a faculty member who was very

00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:34.546
successful in the movies in Los
Angeles and his career and he had taken a

00:55:34.579 --> 00:55:40.166
job at the West campus in the, as a
movie professor, I guess you would say.

00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:44.396
And he wanted a theater. Originally we
had a movie, it was to, the

00:55:44.429 --> 00:55:48.836
building was designed even before I
got there to have a a video theater

00:55:48.869 --> 00:55:53.166
for distance education, which was why
Roger had such a direct interest in

00:55:53.199 --> 00:56:01.199
it, but we weren't really doing any of
that there, and so um we revamped

00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:06.097
that video studio to be a movie
theater for this professor, he was never

00:56:06.130 --> 00:56:09.046
very happy with it, he was one of
those that was never very happy with

00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:16.967
much of anything, um and then
eventually um that space was was repurposed

00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:21.416
completely, but we really never um we
really never did a lot with the

00:56:21.449 --> 00:56:27.827
video, we didn't, we had a presence
for distance education that was out of

00:56:27.860 --> 00:56:32.026
Rogers department, you know, we sort
of provided some services for the

00:56:32.059 --> 00:56:35.747
students who were taking distance
education classes physically on our

00:56:35.780 --> 00:56:41.347
campus and we, my unit provided some
support for them, um did had some

00:56:41.380 --> 00:56:46.197
equipment and administered the tests
and did stuff like that, and I began

00:56:46.230 --> 00:56:52.566
complaining about that too um From the
West Campus, you didn't talk about

00:56:52.599 --> 00:56:55.986
the leadership that was out there,
when you you went out there in about

00:56:56.019 --> 00:56:58.697
90-91.

00:56:58.730 --> 00:57:06.396
january 91 and who were the leaders at
that time, you know, I'm having

00:57:06.429 --> 00:57:11.236
trouble thinking of his last name, but
we had a person who was, I think it

00:57:11.269 --> 00:57:17.197
was called Vice President at the time
and his name was Vern vernon land,

00:57:17.230 --> 00:57:22.356
thank you very much linda. Um and when
I was hired, I was hired reporting

00:57:22.389 --> 00:57:28.006
to him um which was not very
comfortable for him and kind of weird for me

00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:36.039
because um I didn't go to um I didn't,
he didn't include me as if I were a

00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:42.117
dean. And so I was kind of not
included in a lot of what was going on. But

00:57:42.150 --> 00:57:50.150
I reported to him um before too long
he hired um to be um administrative

00:57:50.659 --> 00:57:57.666
vice president and um moved me to
reporting to go which I protested

00:57:57.699 --> 00:58:02.497
greatly at the time because I again I
had notions that I no longer think

00:58:02.530 --> 00:58:05.686
are really all that valid, but I had
notions that the faculty would not

00:58:05.719 --> 00:58:10.287
accept our services as well if we were
reporting into an administrative

00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:14.247
vice president. I since learned the
faculty have no idea who you report to.

00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:17.697
So it doesn't make it doesn't make any
difference.

00:58:17.730 --> 00:58:20.057
Yeah

00:58:20.090 --> 00:58:24.537
they didn't they didn't and anyway God
was extremely popular with all the

00:58:24.570 --> 00:58:29.727
faculty and he was very fun to work
for a very dynamic guy. I just really

00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:34.197
enjoyed working with him. We had a
nice team of people that work for him

00:58:34.230 --> 00:58:42.230
that we're all, we all just so wanted
to you know have the campus succeed.

00:58:42.510 --> 00:58:48.356
And um it was at a time when the
campus was, I remember Jack Kinzinger

00:58:48.389 --> 00:58:51.387
saying

00:58:51.420 --> 00:58:59.420
I got the right guy. No um milk click
yeah milk click. He said you guys

00:58:59.480 --> 00:59:02.637
want to be part of a S. You when it
suits you and not when it doesn't and

00:59:02.670 --> 00:59:07.697
I thought is that ever true? You know
I mean when whenever I need services

00:59:07.730 --> 00:59:12.276
from the main campus, I'm part of a S.
U. And whenever I want them out of

00:59:12.309 --> 00:59:16.807
my hair were separate, We had some
years where we got away with that and

00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:19.186
eventually of course we didn't get
away with it anymore and the whole

00:59:19.219 --> 00:59:24.037
thing is kind of withered up out
there, but um you know, we had a lot of

00:59:24.070 --> 00:59:28.956
fun while we were growing and he was
God was just a real treat to work

00:59:28.989 --> 00:59:35.037
with. We almost went from One campus
with several locations to almost

00:59:35.070 --> 00:59:39.227
separate campuses back to one campus
with several locations during that

00:59:39.260 --> 00:59:46.066
time period as well. So. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean vernon Latin had had a

00:59:46.099 --> 00:59:50.077
very separatist attitude and that
start was the root of our troubles I

00:59:50.110 --> 00:59:56.137
think at West and the fact that he had
such a separatist attitude really

00:59:56.170 --> 01:00:00.756
angered people in Tempe. I remember
when he hired me, he really wanted me

01:00:00.789 --> 01:00:04.436
to say that we ought to have our own
separate administrative systems out

01:00:04.469 --> 01:00:09.066
there and I said no, you know, we're
never going to be, that's never going

01:00:09.099 --> 01:00:11.546
to be a good plan, that's not good for
the students. That's not

01:00:11.579 --> 01:00:15.867
financially good, that's just not
good. No, and he accepted that, you know

01:00:15.900 --> 01:00:21.717
, but he would have liked to just be
really separate and then um and I

01:00:21.750 --> 01:00:27.477
think for that reason he got fired in
essence and um we brought Ben

01:00:27.510 --> 01:00:35.077
foresight um in as uh you know, sort
of to whip us into shape out there.

01:00:35.110 --> 01:00:42.276
Um he was laddies, you know guy to
come and bring us into line I think. Um

01:00:42.309 --> 01:00:47.776
but he kind of got infected with the
spirit of the West and and stayed out

01:00:47.809 --> 01:00:53.137
there for five years I think it was
and really kind of as I say, got

01:00:53.170 --> 01:00:56.947
infected with the enthusiasm we had
for the campus and the vision that was

01:00:56.980 --> 01:01:00.907
being developed for the campus, which
after all had been started by the

01:01:00.940 --> 01:01:07.316
citizenry. Um and you know, wasn't a
creature of a S. U. In that sense,

01:01:07.349 --> 01:01:14.967
Tempe and then after um Ben was done
with hard Elaine Maimon. We the

01:01:15.000 --> 01:01:19.856
university did and she also was a
little too separatist for most people's

01:01:19.889 --> 01:01:26.307
taste. And uh I think that's kind of
the way it ended was that we just

01:01:26.340 --> 01:01:31.387
needed to really be brought to heel.
And then um you know, Michael Crowe

01:01:31.420 --> 01:01:35.856
came in and he had a whole different
view of how things ought to be. So

01:01:35.889 --> 01:01:39.506
until Michael Crowe came in, were you
getting fairly good financial

01:01:39.539 --> 01:01:45.947
support? Yes. We had the legislators
that the legislature had a separate

01:01:45.980 --> 01:01:50.447
appropriation for the west campus and
that was honored by S. U. Until

01:01:50.480 --> 01:01:54.506
microcode came. And so with our
separate appropriation and are separate,

01:01:54.539 --> 01:01:59.177
we could make our own budget requests
and so forth. We were financially,

01:01:59.210 --> 01:02:04.206
you know, not wealthy, but we had the
money to do the things we thought we

01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:07.916
ought to do and we were able to set
our own priorities. Um When Michael

01:02:07.949 --> 01:02:14.086
came on, he said no, it's all one
budget. And he reduce the resources at

01:02:14.119 --> 01:02:21.666
West very significantly as God did
everything. Um, you know, I always said

01:02:21.699 --> 01:02:25.517
at the time that I was reporting was
moved, reporting to God and I was

01:02:25.550 --> 01:02:29.256
worried about that and complaining, I
finally said to myself, you know, I

01:02:29.289 --> 01:02:32.146
think this guy's gonna have all the
money and I always want to report

01:02:32.179 --> 01:02:37.066
wherever the money is because it takes
a lot of money to do technology and

01:02:37.099 --> 01:02:41.666
not everybody understands that and I
need to be where there's somebody

01:02:41.699 --> 01:02:46.236
that will understand it, appreciate it
and give me money and God was

01:02:46.269 --> 01:02:51.197
really good at that. You know, he
would, I mean, I didn't when at the time

01:02:51.230 --> 01:02:54.506
where we needed to hire faculty, I
didn't say, well I need more staff. I

01:02:54.539 --> 01:02:57.997
said, you know, if we need more
faculty, I'll get by with a couple of

01:02:58.030 --> 01:03:02.827
fewer lines. But you know, at the time
where we really needed to put

01:03:02.860 --> 01:03:09.447
technology in the classrooms and there
was enough money to do that. Um, I

01:03:09.480 --> 01:03:14.666
was able to get the money because I
had very supportive administration.

01:03:14.699 --> 01:03:17.756
Well, you talked about some of the
challenges. What were, what were some

01:03:17.789 --> 01:03:22.356
of the most satisfying things that,
that you did during, Well, either the

01:03:22.389 --> 01:03:28.316
main campus or Tempe campus or the
west campus. Um, I think by far the

01:03:28.349 --> 01:03:32.046
most satisfying thing maybe because
it's the most recent in my mind, but

01:03:32.079 --> 01:03:36.316
the most satisfying thing was working
really closely with the faculty at

01:03:36.349 --> 01:03:43.186
West at Tempe, I was removed A level
or two and didn't really talk to very

01:03:43.219 --> 01:03:46.727
many faculties, some that were on my
advisory committees. But at West I

01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:50.256
knew absolutely everyone. Um, I talked
to them about what they were doing

01:03:50.289 --> 01:03:53.867
in their classroom and what we could
do to help them and I was able to do

01:03:53.900 --> 01:03:58.046
things for individual faculty who had
special programs that needed special

01:03:58.079 --> 01:04:02.407
help. That was very satisfying. Along
with, I guess I want to see in terms

01:04:02.440 --> 01:04:08.066
of what I got satisfaction out of was
um, you know, building a

01:04:08.099 --> 01:04:14.106
professional staff who was really
trying to understand their role in terms

01:04:14.139 --> 01:04:17.907
of being supporting the faculty and
the students and not telling the

01:04:17.940 --> 01:04:21.606
faculty and students what was good for
them, but doing what the faculty

01:04:21.639 --> 01:04:25.796
and students said they needed, you
know, although we had to provide some

01:04:25.829 --> 01:04:31.387
direction for technology still. Um, I
felt really good about um, what I

01:04:31.420 --> 01:04:37.057
learned the hard way. It took me five
years of soul searching and pain too

01:04:37.090 --> 01:04:42.336
to understand what the quality
movement was trying to, to teach me. It was

01:04:42.369 --> 01:04:46.637
, it was amazingly difficult, but I
got a lot of satisfaction when I felt

01:04:46.670 --> 01:04:51.626
like I understood that and had
implemented it effectively with the staff

01:04:51.659 --> 01:04:54.967
at West and I was sorry to see all of
that go out the window to a large

01:04:55.000 --> 01:05:01.697
extent. I really was well, uh if you
were to sit down and talk to a young

01:05:01.730 --> 01:05:05.197
person that's thinking about a career
in the areas that you've been in and

01:05:05.230 --> 01:05:10.626
what, what kind of advice would you
give them go to stanford first or

01:05:10.659 --> 01:05:17.546
things are so different now. You know,
it's just so much more difficult.

01:05:17.579 --> 01:05:22.106
You know, I think, you know, first
they have to, they do in fact have to

01:05:22.139 --> 01:05:26.316
today you have to have an education of
some sort that is in that field to

01:05:26.349 --> 01:05:31.356
some extent, although it depends, um,
you know, be prepared to do an

01:05:31.389 --> 01:05:38.046
apprenticeship, um work, you know,
either as an intern or um, you know,

01:05:38.079 --> 01:05:41.867
take a, take an entry level type job,
be willing to try to get an entry

01:05:41.900 --> 01:05:46.227
level type job. Maybe not even in the
field you want, but so that you can

01:05:46.260 --> 01:05:51.066
get, you know, recognized and known as
somebody who might be successful

01:05:51.099 --> 01:05:55.956
because when I got hired, you know,
there weren't any, I mean there was

01:05:55.989 --> 01:06:01.157
almost nobody in the field and we
could be 21 and green as grass and if we

01:06:01.190 --> 01:06:04.947
did well on an aptitude test, we'd get
hired. That's just not the case

01:06:04.980 --> 01:06:07.537
today. You know, it's much harder. You
have to have much more in the way

01:06:07.570 --> 01:06:12.347
of credentials to get hired into the
field, but I think don't do it if you

01:06:12.380 --> 01:06:18.617
don't love it. You know, it's like any
other field, do what you love and

01:06:18.650 --> 01:06:24.557
and enjoy it. Look for look for what's
fun and try to minimize what's not

01:06:24.590 --> 01:06:29.077
fun. You know, there's always
something that's not fun. But you know, have

01:06:29.110 --> 01:06:33.117
fun. Um, if you, if you're not gonna
have fun, you're going to just be a

01:06:33.150 --> 01:06:38.086
miserable person. And um, I was very
lucky. I love the field. I still do,

01:06:38.119 --> 01:06:41.526
I still diddle around with computers
all the time and I think it's fun,

01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:45.086
you know, Well, I can remember calling
you on more than one occasion and

01:06:45.119 --> 01:06:48.327
you were always very helpful and I
knew you enjoyed what you did that's

01:06:48.360 --> 01:06:52.137
consistent with your advice. And in
fact, that was one of the things that

01:06:52.170 --> 01:06:56.137
when I was on the nominating committee
many years ago, that prompted me to

01:06:56.170 --> 01:06:59.447
pick up the phone and call you and
said Connie, we need your help. And the

01:06:59.480 --> 01:07:04.387
retirees association, I certainly came
because you did that. Tell me, tell

01:07:04.420 --> 01:07:09.427
me now, let's see what year you're
retired, then 2000 and 6 to 6. Okay.

01:07:09.460 --> 01:07:12.256
And then after that, tell me about
your involvement with the retirees

01:07:12.289 --> 01:07:17.807
association. Well, that that next
fall, I guess it was or maybe late fall

01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:22.916
, you called me and asked if I'd be
willing to be on the board and, you

01:07:22.949 --> 01:07:26.566
know, after determining that it didn't
mean much more than going to meet

01:07:26.599 --> 01:07:33.267
some people. I knew I liked once a
month. I thought I said, sure, I'll do

01:07:33.300 --> 01:07:38.296
that and you sort of said, well, you
know, if you're on the ballot you'll

01:07:38.329 --> 01:07:43.247
just pretty much be elected. And I
said, okay, well I didn't hear anything

01:07:43.280 --> 01:07:47.666
so I assumed I hadn't been elected
somehow and I didn't think anything

01:07:47.699 --> 01:07:55.699
about it. And then in the fall I got a
meeting notice and I said well we

01:07:57.789 --> 01:08:05.789
elected in april yes, I missed that
meeting.

01:08:07.500 --> 01:08:14.077
But you've done so much to remember
going from Rolodex system too.

01:08:14.110 --> 01:08:17.496
Well that was that was heavily Dave's
doing um I couldn't really help

01:08:17.529 --> 01:08:22.307
myself of course. Um the minute I
started sort of looking around and

01:08:22.340 --> 01:08:27.267
seeing, you know, really old computers
and I remember I asked to go look

01:08:27.300 --> 01:08:32.937
at the computers and I think Dave and
Doug johnson went with me and um

01:08:32.970 --> 01:08:36.836
they were so old and they were running
such old operating systems that we

01:08:36.869 --> 01:08:40.527
were actually presenting a real
security threat to the campus by having

01:08:40.560 --> 01:08:45.237
those because they were no longer
having secure updates on the operating

01:08:45.270 --> 01:08:48.437
system for those. And so they were
open to all kinds of viruses. And I was

01:08:48.470 --> 01:08:51.836
kind of going, well, you know, we
really ought to do something about that.

01:08:51.869 --> 01:08:55.017
 Of course. That was the end of me

01:08:55.050 --> 01:09:03.050
and Dave was working on trying to
automate the membership records and um I

01:09:04.630 --> 01:09:08.477
kind of hung back from that thinking
if Dave wants to do that, that's good

01:09:08.510 --> 01:09:13.256
with me, I'm not going to get my nose
in there. And he did. He got a he he

01:09:13.289 --> 01:09:18.406
and I guess had some help and got some
God, he had an on Excel then he

01:09:18.439 --> 01:09:23.347
took a course and because we had
discussed it and I said, I think we need

01:09:23.380 --> 01:09:27.746
to write an access database, that's
what this really is. And he did that

01:09:27.779 --> 01:09:32.307
and then after he got it kind of done,
I said, all right, well it's not

01:09:32.340 --> 01:09:37.336
fair to dave to have to keep working
on that. All take it over. And I did.

01:09:37.369 --> 01:09:41.456
And that was of course that he took
was on access wasn't? Yes. And he got

01:09:41.489 --> 01:09:44.857
an a Yeah, there you go. You know, and
he and he put the system together

01:09:44.890 --> 01:09:48.696
the initial system and I, you know, I
revamped it heavily, but the

01:09:48.729 --> 01:09:52.277
gathering of the data and the initial
effort was something that Dave did

01:09:52.310 --> 01:09:56.387
and you know, I worked on it and now
we have it so that I don't have to

01:09:56.420 --> 01:10:00.347
spend very much time on it and we can
run a little membership report once

01:10:00.380 --> 01:10:05.727
a month with with just pressing a
button. I always appreciate that. Well,

01:10:05.760 --> 01:10:10.057
and I I did that because I enjoyed
working with you and Dave in the same,

01:10:10.090 --> 01:10:13.717
same for us. You know, we both enjoyed
working with you uh in this

01:10:13.750 --> 01:10:16.536
organization. Just like any other one
though, you seem to have progressed

01:10:16.569 --> 01:10:21.527
right up through and uh I spent a year
as president. Well, yeah, I mean

01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:26.746
that was that was sort of in my
opinion because nobody else would do it

01:10:26.779 --> 01:10:31.296
that year that, you know, we all take
our turn in the barrel. Yeah, yeah.

01:10:31.329 --> 01:10:34.767
I wasn't too crazy about having to do
that to be honest because I was

01:10:34.800 --> 01:10:37.737
still putting an awful lot of time
into the, and I still am into the

01:10:37.770 --> 01:10:42.807
website and the database and that was
about as much as I wanted to do. But

01:10:42.840 --> 01:10:48.487
I was um, Val asked me to do it and I
said, well, what about this faculty

01:10:48.520 --> 01:10:53.696
? I thought it should be a faculty
person for one thing because Val and

01:10:53.729 --> 01:10:58.656
mary had preceded were preceding me.
Um, Val was the outgoing president

01:10:58.689 --> 01:11:02.097
and mary was the incoming president at
the time. And so I would be the

01:11:02.130 --> 01:11:05.357
third non faculty and I didn't think
that was, I was afraid the

01:11:05.390 --> 01:11:11.666
organization would start looking, you
know, to staff e, but Val assured me

01:11:11.699 --> 01:11:15.756
he talked to you and you said it'd be
fine. And so I said, okay if Elmer

01:11:15.789 --> 01:11:20.696
thinks it's okay, I guess I can do
this so well tell me about some of the

01:11:20.729 --> 01:11:24.057
other things that occupy your time. I
think I can remember stories about

01:11:24.090 --> 01:11:27.637
baseball games and birdwatching and a
few other things. Tell me about what

01:11:27.670 --> 01:11:30.546
else occupies your time. Beside the
retirees association, just an

01:11:30.579 --> 01:11:37.027
extension of what our interests have
been since we've been young. Um, I'm

01:11:37.060 --> 01:11:42.357
a big barry and I are big bird
watchers. Um, I got that Hobby when I was

01:11:42.390 --> 01:11:47.147
in my 20s from my sister and my
mother. And the whole family kind of has

01:11:47.180 --> 01:11:52.607
done it over the years. We go places
and we we try to identify new birds.

01:11:52.640 --> 01:11:56.527
My sister and her husband are active
and the four of us go on trips a lot.

01:11:56.560 --> 01:12:01.286
We're big baseball fans had season
tickets to the Diamondbacks for the

01:12:01.319 --> 01:12:05.467
1st 10 years but got really tired when
the team got really bad. We just

01:12:05.500 --> 01:12:09.067
couldn't stand going anymore. And I
haven't been to a game since in the

01:12:09.100 --> 01:12:14.857
last two years but A. S. U. Baseball
now that's something we really like

01:12:14.890 --> 01:12:19.847
which reminds me of another little
story that my embarrassing, one of my

01:12:19.880 --> 01:12:22.397
many embarrassing moments. I wasn't
gonna ask you about embarrassing

01:12:22.430 --> 01:12:25.017
moments that go ahead.

01:12:25.050 --> 01:12:29.826
Barry and I had we're taking the kids
when they were growing up, we were

01:12:29.859 --> 01:12:35.076
taking them to the baseball games and
I think about when they were in high

01:12:35.109 --> 01:12:40.817
school or so um they stopped wanting
to come but we still had four tickets.

01:12:40.850 --> 01:12:45.647
So we would go to the games, the two
of us and have these two spare

01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:50.987
tickets and we would look at people
standing in line and offer them our

01:12:51.020 --> 01:12:55.826
tickets instead of buying them. You
know just take these two. And um I

01:12:55.859 --> 01:12:59.656
would usually try to barry was very
we're both pretty shy anyway in

01:12:59.689 --> 01:13:02.887
situations like that. But I felt like
you know somebody ought to use these

01:13:02.920 --> 01:13:09.317
tickets and I usually look for
somebody with a child? Well one day I

01:13:09.350 --> 01:13:13.727
offered the tickets to a man in the
line with a with a child, a young

01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:18.996
person and he said thank you very much
and he took him and later on maybe

01:13:19.029 --> 01:13:22.326
not that day, but a few days later I
realized that was last week or so.

01:13:22.359 --> 01:13:30.359
That's a pretty embarrassed. A great
story. Oh

01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:35.817
that's great. Well you know, we never
did get into your your family. Tell

01:13:35.850 --> 01:13:43.067
me more about. Mhm. Um well um Barry
and I have been married, I think it's

01:13:43.100 --> 01:13:48.506
38 years, maybe something like that
short of 40. Um and we have two

01:13:48.539 --> 01:13:54.116
Children, two grown Children. Um Kent
is

01:13:54.149 --> 01:13:58.777
in Australia at the present moment
with his partner. They are working

01:13:58.810 --> 01:14:03.586
there and um they don't have any
Children. And my daughter jennifer is on

01:14:03.619 --> 01:14:09.597
the faculty at A S. U. She's at the
poly campus in engineering. And um

01:14:09.630 --> 01:14:15.487
she's married to a man who was born in
Turkey, raised in Turkey also with

01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:19.446
a PhD. And they have a little son
named who's just a little over a year

01:14:19.479 --> 01:14:24.006
old, that's our only grandchild.
Grandchild. So I think that maybe all the

01:14:24.039 --> 01:14:29.427
way to, well we never know, we never
know but that that maybe there'll be

01:14:29.460 --> 01:14:33.767
one more but I don't I don't know,
Connie, we've we've asked you a lot of

01:14:33.800 --> 01:14:38.586
questions and like maybe as we wind
this up to give you an opportunity. Is

01:14:38.619 --> 01:14:42.357
there anything that you might want to
share with us that we failed to ask

01:14:42.390 --> 01:14:48.116
you or anything else that you'd like
to say is I don't I don't think so, I

01:14:48.149 --> 01:14:52.927
I think maybe you have gotten the gist
of what I had in mind, which was

01:14:52.960 --> 01:14:57.796
that um I really, I really, although
there were some tough times and there

01:14:57.829 --> 01:15:02.196
were a couple of times when I came
close to getting fired, um I take I

01:15:02.229 --> 01:15:05.987
take a lot of pride in the fact that I
actually survived as long as I did

01:15:06.020 --> 01:15:10.956
in um in the field that I did, because
I'm one of the very rare that way,

01:15:10.989 --> 01:15:15.777
heads of uh computing services and
universities typically don't last 10

01:15:15.810 --> 01:15:20.397
years because something sure to go
wrong and you're sure to get blamed for

01:15:20.430 --> 01:15:25.467
it, like I always felt it was like
being a coach, you know? Um you, you

01:15:25.500 --> 01:15:32.456
know, it was it was, it's risky, you
know? Yeah, I can't complain about

01:15:32.489 --> 01:15:36.807
that either, but the, you know, people

01:15:36.840 --> 01:15:41.607
expect that when they plug their
computer and it's gonna work and it

01:15:41.640 --> 01:15:47.307
doesn't always, and that can be very
frustrating if you're depending on it

01:15:47.340 --> 01:15:52.796
and so you got to blame somebody and
uh you know, I feel good that I

01:15:52.829 --> 01:15:59.057
survived. Um But I did have, I did
enjoy my career very much, there were,

01:15:59.090 --> 01:16:03.767
as I say, a few bad times, but I
enjoyed it. Um I think I was very lucky

01:16:03.800 --> 01:16:07.666
that I came to the issue at the time I
did. Um I feel very lucky that I

01:16:07.699 --> 01:16:13.256
got out at the time. I did tell you
the truth if things were gonna change

01:16:13.289 --> 01:16:17.956
for dramatically again for me um I was
going to have to come back to the

01:16:17.989 --> 01:16:23.376
Tempe campus if I stayed on and um it
would have just been a big change

01:16:23.409 --> 01:16:27.506
and I was glad I could retire instead
of whether another major sea change

01:16:27.539 --> 01:16:31.536
like that. Well I think we're we were
lucky that you were here as well and

01:16:31.569 --> 01:16:35.836
and I know that you made a major
contribution to help not only

01:16:35.869 --> 01:16:40.116
administrative but the faculty and and
everybody on campus and we deeply

01:16:40.149 --> 01:16:43.717
appreciate your time today as well as
as well as all the things that

01:16:43.750 --> 01:16:48.116
you've done for us over all the years
and so in a. S. U. Retirees

01:16:48.149 --> 01:16:52.906
association as well. So we we thank
you so much and we're delighted that

01:16:52.939 --> 01:16:57.576
you're here today so thank you and
also wanted to thank Roger and Dave and

01:16:57.609 --> 01:17:03.006
linda for all of their work behind the
scenes today. And so we we

01:17:03.039 --> 01:17:08.439
appreciate that as well. And once
again Connie thank you so much, thankyou