WEBVTT

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 friday, january 13th 2000 and six, friday the 13th, that's not a bad omen.

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I'm pam Stevenson and I'll be doing
the interview. And Manny Garcia is

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our videographer and this is uh an
interview for the living history video

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project of the Arizona State
University retirees association. And we are

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at the visitor information center of
S. U. At rural and Apache boulevard.

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Uh and I'd like to have you introduce
yourself. If you could just give me

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your full name. I am jefferson Eugene
Grigsby junior.

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And tell me, when were you born? And
where were you born Born October 17,

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1918 in Greensboro north Carolina. And
I think my family may have kept me

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there at least three months before
they moved. Someplace else. That's a

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good birthday, that's my birthday 17.

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A very good friend who just celebrated
her 100th birthday who was born

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three days before that we keep our
birthdays intact.

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Well, so where did you grow up then?
Yeah, I grew up, started in Lynchburg

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Virginia and then columbus Ohio. And
then preview texas and then Winston

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Salem north Carolina and finally
charlotte, north Carolina. Why did your

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family move so much? My dad was a
teacher

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we went from, he taught high school in
Lynchburg. Then he, I decided to go

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for a higher degree and went to Ohio
State and that's where I first

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started school at the level left high
school on the campus at Ohio State.

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Then he got a job at Prairie View
texas teaching there. So we moved to

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Prairie View. Then he got a job at
Winston Salem State University and it

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took us to Winston. And then he became
the principal of a high school in

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charlotte. And that's where we settle.
Mhm. So how large was your family?

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Would you have a lot of brothers and
sisters? one sister, who was That was

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eight years old when she was born?
Born in texas. And I have two brothers

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, both of whom were born in Winston
Salem, mm hmm. You're the oldest and

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the oldest. Um So your father was a
teacher. I imagine education was

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always important to him. Yeah. Both my
father and my mother, we're

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teachers.

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Um so, um were you a good student
growing up? Their students? Uh huh. I

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had my ups and downs. Yeah. Mm hmm.

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And back then, of course the schools
were segregated. Oh yes. What was

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that like? Well, that's all I knew
from. Both college and public schools.

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We were all segregated. And

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first ever I went to it, any kind of
school that was integrated. It was

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when I went to art school in new york.
And when was that? That was in 1939

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,

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Mhm. Had you gone to college before
that? Yes. I went to, I started

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college at johnson c smith University
in charlotte because it was a mile

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from home, but they had no art. And I
had studied dabbling in art from,

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from a man who uh I was on my paper
route. And when I went to collect from

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him I saw these paintings and ask him
where he got him and he said he

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painted him and I left because he
didn't look like my concept of what an

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artist should be. He was so what and
quite black you know he'd only gone

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too about fourth grade and all the
artists pictures I had seen were blind

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and what so but I had started I got
interested in and uh alright but smith

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had no heart and after a year I went
to visit a girl in Atlanta and she

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took me to my first exhibit where met
Hale Woodruff who was a well known

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artist at the time. And when I told
him what I was doing he said you can

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take art here. So I I called my
family, I wrote and I wanted to stay in

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Atlanta and go to Morehouse where I
could take our and they told me to

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come home immediately. Uh huh. I had
gone to see a girl. I was 16 years

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old. So no but finally I guess my
mother had something to do with it. They

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said stay there until you hear from
me. So my dad brought my clothes and I

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finally enrolled at Morehouse and
stayed there For the next three years.

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So that was you were only 16. So you
knew pretty early then what you

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wanted to do in life. Ah Yeah I guess
I did I knew that one thing I knew I

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didn't want to teach. I had grown up
with a family of teachers and my

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senior year at Morehouse I

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was one of two seniors who took
classes in the high school for my mentor

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by major professor Hill would have who
was charged with all of the art in

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the atlantic university complex from
elementary through university. So

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when it's his load got too heavy. They

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Gave two of us high school classes and
at the end of the year the woman

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who was in charge of education and at
the college said offered to give me

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credit for student teaching and I said
no I don't want it. Somebody might

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give me a job teaching.

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Uh

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It was in a, I wanted to go to art
school but my family couldn't afford it.

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So one of the stories that my mental
hill would have had talked about for

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somebody incorporating himself in the
southern chair. So I decided to do

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that in order to go to art school. So
I good so called incorporated myself

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nothing legally. But this is what I
said asshole chairs and for $10 and

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$20,

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for a painting And thank $10 for a
print. And I went off to art school

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with I think I had $150 to go to New
York. What kind of art were you doing

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at that time. What was the first part
you were doing? I was painting when

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oil painting and uh wood blocks. They
know your wood block prints. But the

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main thing I had a sculpture class but
I didn't do very much with that.

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Mhm. So when you decided to go off to
new york to art school did you think

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that you could make a living as an
artist? I guess? I just didn't think

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about it in those days. You just
jumped in and you did what you thought

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had we rude awakening? Once I got
there I

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lived at the Y. W. Y. M. C. A. Uh
annex because I couldn't afford the main

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branch of the Y. M. C. A.

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And the clerk knew what I wanted to do
because I was always talking about.

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So he told me that was an exhibit
across the street at the main branch.

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So I went over to see this exhibit and
there was one other person in the

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room and after a while I got up nerve
and introduced myself and said I'm

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Eugene Grigsby from charlotte. He said
I'm Jacob Clarke from new york. And

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it happened that Jacob Lawrence was
going to american artist school had

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gone to the american artist school the
year before. Oh

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when I'm on my way from Atlanta to
charlotte at at the end of that school

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year. Uh the the director of the mint
museum in charlotte. I knew what my

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interests were at what I had planned
to do. But she knew that okay, a

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relative of hers. I think a relative,
a very good friend was and shot it

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and he was a major artist. She wanted
him to come and advise me about my

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going to school in new york. I wanted
to go to the american artist school

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and this man bob Gwathmey robert,
Gwathmey came by to interview and talk

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to me about new york and the schools.
So he suggested american artist

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school because it was much less
expensive but also the instructors were as

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good as that. The

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uh art students League. I thought it
is advice and he became one of my

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best friends, bobby was one of the top
american artists. Uh huh.

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So but during that year in new york uh
I got many jobs,

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did things like mopping floors and
cooking and anything to to sustain

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myself. But at the end of the year uh
hail would have had come through new

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york. And it took me to New Haven with
him where he uh submitted plans for

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a mural, a mural for Talladega college
called the amistad murals. Ah

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He offered me they chance of working
with him on the amazon mirror. But at

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the same time my dad called and said
that the state of north Carolina

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would pay my way to go to graduate
school anyplace but north Carolina. So

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I took that and went to Ohio State.
There had been the number of seven

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colleges and universities at that
time. You didn't want to admit blacks

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because of some of the rulings, they
had to either admit or find a way for

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them to go. So I went to Ohio State
kind of masters,

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the the tuition being paid by the
state of north Carolina. What year was

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that? I finished 1940, went there in
39 40 In New York in 38 39.

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So once you got your masters there,
what were you going to do with that? I

00:12:16.500 --> 00:12:21.866
didn't want to teach. I didn't want to
teach. I was dumb. I had no idea

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what to do with it, but one of the
things I did, my my beatus again to

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show you how unrealistic I was, my
thesis was, was the influence of

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african art on modern art at that
time. None of the historians, any of

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them felt it work coming out of africa
could be called art. They didn't

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realize they had a strong influence
that the african art had on people

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like Picasso and Matisse and an old
group of modernist. And there was one

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professor at Ohio State who was crazy
enough to let me use that for a

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subject.

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I bet you learned a lot doing that. Oh
yes, I did. And after I finished I

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went back visiting johnson C smith uh
where my dad had gone, my mother and

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where I had finished my first year and
the Dean asked me if I wanted a job

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of course, so I became artist in
residence for a year, johnson c smith.

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Mhm. What did an artist in residence
do back then? Theoretically artists

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and residents were supposed to paint
and let other people see you

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producing art. Unfortunately. Uh I was
called on the teacher class in

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elementary school, elementary school
art, which I did, that was class. My

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my mother was theater and I was asked
to teach a class and drama. I taught

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a class and acting and went and played
directing. So my year was filled up

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with most things, but I didn't get a
chance to do just my own painting. I

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also started a group of worked with a
group of kids and ah a building that

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was on campus

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saturday morning class for you for
elementary aged Children, most of whom

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were Children of the professors on
campus. Mhm. So what do you do after

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that year

00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:50.440
that after? Okay.

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Yeah. Okay. Then I

00:14:59.129 --> 00:15:05.917
I taught summer school Elizabeth City
State Teachers College. And then I

00:15:05.950 --> 00:15:11.876
got a job that year and the film in
college and Daytona Beach with

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business Bethune who was at that time
perhaps the leading uh black woman

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in the country. And she was a very
good friend of mrs Roosevelt and became

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head of one of the national youth
programs from the government. I thought

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that for taught there for a year and
at the end of that year. Uh

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Armey said that they were not going to
give me any more the pharaohs,

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I think I've gotten three at that time
from being drafted. But my dad

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wrote and said that former mayor of
charlotte was setting up a company and

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and they're an army company 30 miles
in Charlotte for of volunteers. But

00:16:09.539 --> 00:16:16.476
you volunteer and you would not be uh,
you could, you would be staying

00:16:16.509 --> 00:16:21.976
there for the duration of the war plus
six months. But you'd have to stay

00:16:22.009 --> 00:16:25.707
in there only six months after the war
was over. But you wouldn't have to

00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:31.516
be worried about going overseas and
went into areas where there was

00:16:31.549 --> 00:16:38.506
fighting. So I jumped on that
volunteered to go to the army.

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The first person I met, Yes. Who
volunteered for the same unit volunteer

00:16:45.220 --> 00:16:50.947
because the women were after him. So
he hired in Omaha that he was Assured

00:16:50.980 --> 00:16:54.407
he'd be overseas in six weeks.

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So that's the army pattern. Well, the
largest group of volunteers said

00:17:02.350 --> 00:17:07.786
volunteer because they could get out
of jail. These people have been

00:17:07.819 --> 00:17:14.127
convicted of all kinds of Felonious.
So that formed the basis of our, the

00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:20.266
company I was in, which was overseas,
uh, within six months, less than a

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year. About six months. That's not
much time for training from being a

00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:30.147
civilian artist to being a soldier.
No, we had, we had very little

00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:37.627
training, I think most of the people.
So did they offered where a few of

00:17:37.660 --> 00:17:43.276
them do anything about the army? But
that didn't make any difference, we

00:17:43.309 --> 00:17:49.506
were an ammunition outfit. And

00:17:49.539 --> 00:17:57.539
after a month in the original sitting,
I was sent off to school,

00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:05.006
ammunition school savanna Illinois. It
was an ammunition company where we

00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:13.039
studied all kinds of uh ammunition
from uh small arms to heavy. Um, but

00:18:16.369 --> 00:18:24.187
our job was to deliver this to
soldiers. So when we got overseas, we found

00:18:24.220 --> 00:18:32.220
ourselves trying to keep up with
George Patton's army. And okay, we did.

00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:42.976
We survived this through France and
Germany Belgium. Uh huh. It was an

00:18:43.009 --> 00:18:48.877
interesting experience. So you were
providing the ammunition to Patton's

00:18:48.910 --> 00:18:56.910
army. So and when I went in as a
volunteer, uh,

00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:05.486
I went in as a private. But shortly
after that was made a first sergeant,

00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:13.519
temporarily. I was was voted as the
first sergeant. Uh,

00:19:13.539 --> 00:19:20.707
I knew nothing of the army and the

00:19:20.740 --> 00:19:27.667
as people began to gather as we got
more and more recruits. Uh huh. Since

00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:33.107
that was the first one that they put
me in charge. I remember

00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:38.006
after so many people had come in, one
man came up to me while we were

00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:43.526
putting up tents and he said, I'm a
I'm a first sergeant. And I said, I

00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:47.707
don't know what the hell it is, but go
out there and put up their tents.

00:19:47.740 --> 00:19:55.476
He was later on he was he was in
charge. I was seconded when when the on

00:19:55.509 --> 00:19:58.207
the battalion

00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:02.867
major found out he found out because
one day I was sitting in a tent and I

00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:07.607
said, Major Guy came in and said he's
the first sergeant, what is that?

00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:14.407
And then I lost my first, I lost my
place and being the first one there.

00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:21.707
But after two months or they,

00:20:21.740 --> 00:20:26.836
there was this thing of

00:20:26.869 --> 00:20:31.907
the chain of command and

00:20:31.940 --> 00:20:37.717
for some reason or another, the
captain who came in who knew little about

00:20:37.750 --> 00:20:44.897
the army as I did, Had the soldiers
voting for 1st sergeant. And I had

00:20:44.930 --> 00:20:49.046
seen what the first I had to do and I
was in particular be the first item

00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:54.707
, but they voted me to be the first
sergeant. Uh

00:20:54.740 --> 00:21:00.976
After a couple of months, one of the
the Captain Milton, The Milton is the

00:21:01.009 --> 00:21:09.009
greek from Georgia and I weren't born
in retreat. And the orders came down

00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:17.117
saying that Captain Mr Titus has been
reduced in rank and first Sergeant

00:21:17.150 --> 00:21:23.207
Grigsby has been reduced okay. And

00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:29.957
then I went off to savannah for this
school and got my first check and

00:21:29.990 --> 00:21:35.796
found out I was I was being paid a
private the whole time that only these

00:21:35.829 --> 00:21:39.407
other officers were,

00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:47.440
we're not solid were not real. But
when I got to mhm Savannah, I found

00:21:47.569 --> 00:21:55.569
that I had been elevated to a tax ID,
which was just on the first sergeant.

00:21:56.839 --> 00:21:59.506
 And then Troon.

00:21:59.539 --> 00:22:07.539
From there we went to Fort sill.
Oklahoma and at Fort sill I was elevated

00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:13.236
from a Tech Sergeant to Master
Sergeant. I had wanted to go to officer

00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:21.026
training school. But but Major and I
first camp said that blacks don't

00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:28.397
make good officers so he wouldn't, he
would uh okay for me to go down also

00:22:28.430 --> 00:22:36.430
school. But once I, once we went to
fort sill, I was elevated to a master

00:22:37.049 --> 00:22:43.036
sergeant. I had wanted to go to
officer training school so I could become

00:22:43.069 --> 00:22:48.806
an officer as my dad had been. But
then I found out from the pay I had

00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:56.667
that if I became I get less as a
second lieutenant that I was making. So I

00:22:56.700 --> 00:23:04.236
didn't argue about going to see s
anymore. But that's all early. Tell me

00:23:04.269 --> 00:23:08.697
about some of your experiences in in
europe and in the army or what was

00:23:08.730 --> 00:23:14.996
that like? Oh, we were rained out a
lot of times. We had to move from one

00:23:15.029 --> 00:23:21.157
place to the other. Uh We were in the
battle of the Bugs watching read on

00:23:21.190 --> 00:23:26.637
the edge of it where I was supplying
ammunition to soldiers and these huge

00:23:26.670 --> 00:23:34.670
tanks rumbling by interesting thing
though, and I must give them a credit.

00:23:35.539 --> 00:23:41.026
There was the first sergeant, a very
good friend of mine and he was avid

00:23:41.059 --> 00:23:48.437
reader of army regulations and he
found out that if a soldier had left his

00:23:48.470 --> 00:23:54.947
girlfriend pregnant, it was he should
be released to go back to get

00:23:54.980 --> 00:24:02.607
married if he wanted to. So we had a
situation. Uh well the steps sergeant

00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:08.776
who was engaged to his girlfriend was
pregnant. So we got him released to

00:24:08.809 --> 00:24:15.506
go back to New Jersey in the middle of
the battle of the bus.

00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:21.607
Another thing of interest ah

00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:29.640
what was over in europe. Uh huh. They
started classes in France and they

00:24:31.220 --> 00:24:37.086
advertised for people to teach. So I
had a masters. I I wanted to get out

00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:43.546
of where we were applied to go to go
to school and didn't get it that I

00:24:43.579 --> 00:24:50.397
applied to be an instructor or
teacher. I didn't get that and it's special

00:24:50.430 --> 00:24:56.717
service over the city because we even
do so damn many things. Ah Put on a

00:24:56.750 --> 00:25:04.197
show to do something for the men ah
going overseas. We went over on the

00:25:04.230 --> 00:25:09.907
queen Elizabeth And the troop ship
with over 10,000 soldiers on that ship.

00:25:09.940 --> 00:25:16.697
And they had put on a show uh I had
gotten involved with the group in

00:25:16.730 --> 00:25:24.730
fort sill in which we developed a
marching band. Guys had instruments and

00:25:25.170 --> 00:25:31.217
onboard Queen Elizabeth. They uh guys
came to me and said are the

00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:36.006
instruments. So when I checked with
the special service officer they were

00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:42.387
many interest instruments. So these
guys would take these good old onboard

00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:50.296
and jam session uh Special service
opposite came and said do you Would you

00:25:50.329 --> 00:25:53.576
like to be a part of the show? We're
going to put on the show, would you

00:25:53.609 --> 00:25:58.177
like to be a part of it? Would you
like to put on one of your own? And I

00:25:58.210 --> 00:26:05.046
said, well we'd prefer to make yours a
better show, be a part of it. So as

00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:07.407
we,

00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:13.907
as we proceeded after that I had to
find out who could do what. So I went

00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:18.726
off all over asking what do you do,
dance thing and so forth. And we found

00:26:18.759 --> 00:26:24.607
quite a few people who were
professionally, uh we had a piano player,

00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:31.217
Sonny White who had done the early
Billie Holiday Records. Uh joe louis

00:26:31.250 --> 00:26:37.637
was on board and he was part of it and
ended up to be quite an event. And

00:26:37.670 --> 00:26:43.597
the director, it's a guy named joe
pepperoni and I was doing some drawing

00:26:43.630 --> 00:26:49.776
sector. I had my first exhibit in
Luxembourg on the drawings that I did,

00:26:49.809 --> 00:26:57.627
Queen Elizabeth and one of the
drawings was joe pepperoni. And after we

00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:04.107
came to phoenix early I was looking at
tv and there was a new program,

00:27:04.140 --> 00:27:11.736
yeah, new television program being
directed by joe Pepitone program called

00:27:11.769 --> 00:27:15.407
Star Trek.

00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:21.246
Later on we said joe in the drawing
that I had made of him and we visited

00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:29.279
the the Star trek. But anyway, uh,

00:27:29.539 --> 00:27:34.457
after the war was over. I had the
challenge to do something for the men. I

00:27:34.490 --> 00:27:42.490
wrote a show called a musical comedy
called two points Shy in which yeah,

00:27:44.140 --> 00:27:51.296
the the idea was the main character
sad sack had

00:27:51.329 --> 00:27:57.097
enough points to get out of the army,
but He lost two points because he

00:27:57.130 --> 00:28:03.867
was fraternizing with the Germans. So
we had some guys who put put it to

00:28:03.900 --> 00:28:11.900
music and I wrote the story around
getting out and we to it

00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:18.806
3rd Army Installations in Germany and
in Luxembourg. Uh interesting

00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:24.976
interestingly. Uh most of the people
who were part of that are gone now,

00:28:25.009 --> 00:28:32.867
but I found recently man who had been
one of the uh played the Trumpet and

00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:35.607
that had

00:28:35.640 --> 00:28:43.217
Ben from ST louis and my daughter in
law was in the band that he made and

00:28:43.250 --> 00:28:47.127
a friend of ours men who came by and
well one of my paintings, he said he

00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:50.937
was the best friend of this guy and he
gave me his number and I called him

00:28:50.970 --> 00:28:58.970
yesterday. So we relive some of the Uh
two points Shy. Yes, it is so well

00:29:01.490 --> 00:29:03.707
that must have been quite an
experience being part of the battle of the

00:29:03.740 --> 00:29:09.627
bulge. So it was being shot at and you
know, we were on the periphery. We

00:29:09.660 --> 00:29:17.660
were a part of the group supplying
ammunition to the troops, both the

00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:23.086
infantry and the artillery. Mhm. Then
were you part of the groups that

00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:29.677
went into some of the towns and
liberated people? We we went into one town

00:29:29.710 --> 00:29:36.657
and we thought we so our troops in
front of us. But the they don't know is

00:29:36.690 --> 00:29:39.586
France and Germany but the people came
running out saying they went that

00:29:39.619 --> 00:29:45.296
way and we found out it was Germans we
were trying to instead of r truth

00:29:45.329 --> 00:29:49.016
because we were supposed to be behind
the infantry and in front of the

00:29:49.049 --> 00:29:55.576
artillery. So, but we didn't have any
any other close calls like that, mm

00:29:55.609 --> 00:30:03.457
hmm. Other than getting straight and
getting bombed out. Yeah. In police

00:30:03.490 --> 00:30:08.826
called a barrage. We had stacked all
ammunition in an area and the Germans

00:30:08.859 --> 00:30:13.717
came up with bombing and they bombed
out the area where the ammunition was

00:30:13.750 --> 00:30:21.750
and they began exploding. Uh the first
night we were there I had to bid to

00:30:21.869 --> 00:30:29.869
build big fox hos. And because I
always tried to to emulate and to do

00:30:31.539 --> 00:30:36.417
whatever I asked others to do, I would
do. So I did me a foxhole, an

00:30:36.450 --> 00:30:43.207
excuse for a fox. And when they all
right,

00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:47.707
when they started bombing, I

00:30:47.740 --> 00:30:52.506
I jumped into a foxhole with somebody
else

00:30:52.539 --> 00:30:59.246
and I know what they meant by saying
there's no Atheist in about. But the

00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:06.086
next night, uh I dug when they were
six ft deep and covered with some

00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.506
heavy boards.

00:31:08.539 --> 00:31:15.627
But then I heard a noise like a
ticking noise. I knew that the Germans had

00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:21.417
ammunition that was delayed. We
learned that in ammunition school and it

00:31:21.450 --> 00:31:25.907
just sounded like that bomb which had
not gone off. We could hear them

00:31:25.940 --> 00:31:32.256
whistle down, but whatever then go up
and I swore it was right in my

00:31:32.289 --> 00:31:38.107
foxhole, which was so I came out and
stayed out the rest of the night.

00:31:38.140 --> 00:31:46.140
What does that was about? The never
went off, No, no, it didn't.

00:31:47.029 --> 00:31:52.836
That's a good interesting introduction
to europe. Yes, yes. So how long

00:31:52.869 --> 00:32:00.869
were you overseas? They're in the
army? We were there uh

00:32:01.140 --> 00:32:09.140
about Year 1/2. Maybe two years. Mm
Hmm.

00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:17.240
So when when did you come home
November 1945.

00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:20.597
Were you still in the army for a while
after that? No, I got out as soon

00:32:20.630 --> 00:32:23.996
as I could.

00:32:24.029 --> 00:32:27.566
And what did you want to do after that
experience? Did you have some plans

00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:34.107
? Well, I had married, we had married,

00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:39.506
what was camp Rucker about now is Fort
Rucker. Uh huh.

00:32:39.539 --> 00:32:47.539
And that was shortly before going
overseas and

00:32:47.940 --> 00:32:50.607
when

00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:53.607
when we left,

00:32:53.640 --> 00:33:00.417
my wife was pregnant with our first
child whom I saw When he was eight

00:33:00.450 --> 00:33:08.450
months old, 18 1. So my first uh can
encounter with, but

00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:15.707
I got a job teaching at barber Scotia
college where my wife had finished

00:33:15.740 --> 00:33:23.740
uh huh. But the teacher was on leave
but decided to come back shortly

00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:29.137
after that. So I didn't have a job and
I ended up waiting tables that a

00:33:29.170 --> 00:33:34.546
place called the boards hit. I worked
with a silk screen printer and I did

00:33:34.579 --> 00:33:42.026
a few other odd jobs. I was our editor
of a newspaper that was being

00:33:42.059 --> 00:33:47.607
started with no pay and two

00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:52.306
they, the man who had been principal
of the laboratory high school where I

00:33:52.339 --> 00:33:59.597
taught classes for my my senior year
and come to phoenix and they wanted

00:33:59.630 --> 00:34:04.927
me to come, the phoenix to teach
carbon high school. Well I didn't know

00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:12.106
where phoenix was and I wasn't anxious
to go across the country. Uh by

00:34:12.139 --> 00:34:18.407
this time we had a second child that
was on the way. Uh huh.

00:34:18.440 --> 00:34:24.376
So I kept putting him off and trying
to get work from other places. I had

00:34:24.409 --> 00:34:30.186
an offer from johnson c smith and
Alabama state, but the offer from

00:34:30.219 --> 00:34:38.146
phoenix, It was twice the $1400 they
offered me at the college. So we came

00:34:38.179 --> 00:34:41.296
to Phoenix for $2800.

00:34:41.329 --> 00:34:47.767
And what was your first job here
teaching at Carver High school? Art? They

00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:52.827
did, it was the first time they had in
the art, but mr Robinson who had

00:34:52.860 --> 00:35:00.247
been principled, uh do what I had
done, they're at left high school. Plus

00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:06.307
the fact he and my mother had been
classmates at Atlanta university and

00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:12.907
but he was well known educator and

00:35:12.940 --> 00:35:18.186
brought me the phoenix. What year was
it that you came to phoenix, 1946.

00:35:18.219 --> 00:35:22.407
And what was phoenix like then?

00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:30.440
Small, Best of town where they, the,
the art was very,

00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:39.239
very little. Was that very much a part
of the scene.

00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:47.539
In fact, Phoenix was small and
Scottsdale had one paved streets and there

00:35:47.570 --> 00:35:51.997
was a party line to get a telephone
line to Scottsdale. There was a party

00:35:52.030 --> 00:35:56.686
line, you had to wait Perfect for the
other person to get off the land

00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:04.719
before you could call. Right, how did
you get to phoenix east? I flew, I

00:36:05.550 --> 00:36:13.077
flew in the full loaded planet and uh
my wife had breast obsessed and

00:36:13.110 --> 00:36:21.110
kidnapped travel with me. So too much
later uh my wife and the two kids,

00:36:21.230 --> 00:36:29.230
the boys, 1 2 years old, 1 2 months
old, flew to phoenix. Ah but the plane

00:36:32.289 --> 00:36:38.066
we flew in the plane could not land at
the airport in phoenix because it

00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:45.407
was too small. So we landed in two
sides and I came to phoenix in a small

00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:51.416
plane like a paper cup. And when he
opened the door, when I got out of the

00:36:51.449 --> 00:36:58.597
door in august I thought I was in
hell. Mr Robinson was there to meet me.

00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:04.566
But when the family came Uh huh. They
spent the night with friend, we had

00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:12.599
met uh huh who lived in Tucson and
then they came to phoenix on a train.

00:37:12.730 --> 00:37:19.296
But that's, that tells you how large
phoenix was at that time.

00:37:19.329 --> 00:37:25.336
Not for for mortar trade. So so you
came to phoenix in august? Yes, that's

00:37:25.369 --> 00:37:27.477
a

00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:33.137
good plan and knew nothing about
phoenix and the weather. In fact, I had

00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:37.936
to look it up on the map. So I know
where it was. So what did you think

00:37:37.969 --> 00:37:44.597
your, your first arrival here? Besides
that? It was hot. Well again, Mr

00:37:44.630 --> 00:37:49.736
Robinson picked me up, he said that I
have a place for you to stay with

00:37:49.769 --> 00:37:54.296
the person. You know, I said I don't
know anybody else in the phoenix

00:37:54.329 --> 00:38:01.677
turns out that I didn't know a woman
named mud weems, uh who had been a

00:38:01.710 --> 00:38:07.287
student of my dad at Winston Salem
State College. So we stayed with her

00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:13.077
for a while and then when your family
came, where did you live? Well there

00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:19.637
was a man who lived next door two more
wins and I had been telling her one

00:38:19.670 --> 00:38:23.597
of my family become and I can't find a
place for them to stay. So he said

00:38:23.630 --> 00:38:27.247
, well I've got a room here and you
got a room there so they can come and

00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:32.267
stay. So that's what we did. We
brought instead of me staying over to

00:38:32.300 --> 00:38:37.037
Williams said and the kids and tell me
staying next door, we all stayed

00:38:37.070 --> 00:38:45.070
there and we borrowed a dog baby bed
for the, for the baby at that time.

00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:54.486
And we stayed there until the city of
phoenix built barracks for veterans

00:38:54.519 --> 00:38:59.697
over on 7th Avenue and Buckeye, which
is or Matthew Henson housing

00:38:59.730 --> 00:39:07.597
projects system. So we we stayed there
uh we moved there until the boys

00:39:07.630 --> 00:39:12.717
started getting rambunctious and mix
it with the housing with the kids

00:39:12.750 --> 00:39:17.856
from the housing project. And my wife
said after he started cursing, she

00:39:17.889 --> 00:39:24.546
said we've got to move. So we moved
over 12th Street uh where the kids

00:39:24.579 --> 00:39:31.137
went to booker t Washington, let's go
let's go uh stayed there for a while

00:39:31.170 --> 00:39:36.717
until we moved to where we are now. Oh

00:39:36.750 --> 00:39:43.787
ninth street, 9th Street. And what we
are just north of Roosevelt. And I

00:39:43.820 --> 00:39:49.416
think we're the first family is moving
north. Nothing Van Buren. First

00:39:49.449 --> 00:39:56.387
black family, I should say. That's
almost downtown now. Yes, it is. Mm hmm.

00:39:56.420 --> 00:40:03.577
When did you move there? We moved in
1956.

00:40:03.610 --> 00:40:07.497
Mhm. Well, tell me a little bit about
carver high school. What was carver

00:40:07.530 --> 00:40:15.530
high school like in 1946 when you got
there,

00:40:16.610 --> 00:40:23.517
cover was just a very small school.
And there was no there was an art,

00:40:23.550 --> 00:40:29.526
there was a room in which art was
taught. It had been a size room, it did

00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:35.177
have water in it, but

00:40:35.210 --> 00:40:41.177
there was there had been no history of
art interest of kids and so forth.

00:40:41.210 --> 00:40:44.776
So uh

00:40:44.809 --> 00:40:47.077
we had

00:40:47.110 --> 00:40:53.077
make our way and I know

00:40:53.110 --> 00:40:58.236
and when I was teaching at Bethune
Cookman classes were small and I had to

00:40:58.269 --> 00:41:03.276
teach something besides. Alright. And
since

00:41:03.309 --> 00:41:08.927
he was so bad, minor was drama, it was
listed as english. So I had to

00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:13.677
teach a class in english, which I know
nothing about. In fact, the english

00:41:13.710 --> 00:41:20.546
teacher had to come in and tell me
what to do. I tried to copy it. So

00:41:20.579 --> 00:41:24.467
driving the car were getting smaller.
Mr Robinson said if you don't have

00:41:24.500 --> 00:41:30.977
any more students, you're going to
have to teach something else. So

00:41:31.010 --> 00:41:36.296
I was registering students. The first
one that came by and said don't you

00:41:36.329 --> 00:41:40.046
want to take art. And he said no, I
don't I don't like it and I kept

00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:47.157
talking to him and finally I talked
him into taking, taken a week and I

00:41:47.190 --> 00:41:51.637
said if you don't like it you can get
out. I figured by that time classes

00:41:51.670 --> 00:41:56.157
would be closed and I wouldn't have to
teach something else. The next week

00:41:56.190 --> 00:42:00.447
he came in he said

00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:04.347
I want to get out. And I said you
promised to try something, you haven't

00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:06.767
tried anything.

00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:11.227
So I cut them into staying another
week to try something. And the first

00:42:11.260 --> 00:42:16.586
day did a drawing through it on my
desk and said I don't like it the next

00:42:16.619 --> 00:42:20.166
day, he did something else and threw
it on the desk. I still don't like it

00:42:20.199 --> 00:42:25.077
did that every day until friday. When
he saw me pouring plaster in a milk

00:42:25.110 --> 00:42:29.066
container. He was curious said, what
do you want to do with that? Said

00:42:29.099 --> 00:42:34.666
we're gonna carve it. I did an article
saying that this guy loved to carve

00:42:34.699 --> 00:42:40.267
on desks and fellow students

00:42:40.300 --> 00:42:44.316
and he was curious and he wanted to
take one home. So he took it home and

00:42:44.349 --> 00:42:49.776
he came back on the the end of the
week at the beginning of the next week

00:42:49.809 --> 00:42:53.486
with a figure carved out of this
plaster. He didn't actually get out of

00:42:53.519 --> 00:43:00.037
class anymore. In fact, later on the
next year when he was missing from

00:43:00.070 --> 00:43:05.807
class, they'd always come to the art
room to get it. Uh And I included his

00:43:05.840 --> 00:43:12.166
a couple of the things he did in my
book. Art Ethnics. But

00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:19.867
this I dropped out of school end of
the war, the korean war. And he was

00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:25.537
going for in a few months and he came
back, he's wearing a staff sergeant.

00:43:25.570 --> 00:43:30.747
And I said, how did you rise so fast?
He said he follows the general, he

00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:34.066
does ice carvings with.

00:43:34.099 --> 00:43:42.099
And uh after the war he settled in
Washington Seattle and he visited class

00:43:43.130 --> 00:43:49.686
at A. S. U. Telling students that what
he was doing. Uh He had He said he

00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:55.206
could make $1,000 anytime from one of
the hotels during ice ice carvings.

00:43:55.239 --> 00:43:57.367
 And

00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.467
recently

00:43:59.500 --> 00:44:04.026
he did a series of uh

00:44:04.059 --> 00:44:11.677
sculptures and what you called uh
based on his teachers at carver and he

00:44:11.710 --> 00:44:19.526
gave that to the Carbon Museum. It's a
bronze uh sculpture of three of his

00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:26.427
teachers from Carver, the math
teacher, the coach and myself. Mm hmm.

00:44:26.460 --> 00:44:31.756
Sounds like he did alright for himself
in the art world.

00:44:31.789 --> 00:44:39.217
Edward judy. Yeah. Uh And he also
followed his culinary skills because he

00:44:39.250 --> 00:44:45.977
was uh made some office, given some
office in the state of Washington

00:44:46.010 --> 00:44:51.787
having to do with foods. Mhm. Okay. So
you managed to get enough students

00:44:51.820 --> 00:44:55.157
at Carver to take art that you didn't
have to teach something else. Yes, I

00:44:55.190 --> 00:45:00.057
did. And the one that perhaps

00:45:00.090 --> 00:45:06.657
most outstanding was the guy who uh
was a freshman when I first went there.

00:45:06.690 --> 00:45:13.827
The name rip Woods. Uh And I described
another story that we fought for

00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:19.146
four years, he was there. But ruth
could do more in a week than the rest

00:45:19.179 --> 00:45:24.956
of the class could do in a month
almost. But

00:45:24.989 --> 00:45:31.486
we were giving specific projects to do
and I had to find something for him

00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:38.137
to do because I said he was developed
creative disturbances. He had the

00:45:38.170 --> 00:45:44.626
class uproar the whole time. So I
found something to challenge him which

00:45:44.659 --> 00:45:51.436
was to do a mural on the life of
George Washington carver. Uh huh. He did

00:45:51.469 --> 00:45:57.717
research on that and he found out so
many things about carver that we're

00:45:57.750 --> 00:46:03.267
not generally don't. one of which was
it University of our car had born a

00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:07.807
slave but he wouldn't, he had gone to
the university of our and he wanted

00:46:07.840 --> 00:46:13.626
to take a heart but they said blacks
don't do art so you can send them

00:46:13.659 --> 00:46:16.046
over to agriculture.

00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:22.506
And we ended up all of the things that
carver developed in the peanut and

00:46:22.539 --> 00:46:25.986
the sweet potato and all the other
things because he could, they wouldn't

00:46:26.019 --> 00:46:32.717
let him take art. His senior year one
teacher led him into a watercolor

00:46:32.750 --> 00:46:40.336
class And then I think 1896 world
exposition in Chicago. He ended three

00:46:40.369 --> 00:46:46.046
paintings and he got honorable mention
on two cool but then he went to

00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:52.646
tuskegee and made a name for himself
there. But then rip woods

00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:56.816
after you finished carver,

00:46:56.849 --> 00:47:02.046
not only was a good art student, but
he was a good music student and he

00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:09.217
was a good athlete and he got a
athlete fellowship to N. A. U. Which e. He

00:47:09.250 --> 00:47:13.046
stayed there for a year and he dropped
either dropped out when he came

00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:20.847
back. He ended up going to a
professional art school and then going to

00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:27.247
phoenix college. And then they ask you
where he ended up his career. Yes.

00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:32.747
Professor Eddie issue in our
department.

00:47:32.780 --> 00:47:36.796
So when did you decide that it wasn't
so bad to be a teacher? You said you

00:47:36.829 --> 00:47:43.907
never wanted to be a teacher. I fell
into it. I enjoyed working with kids

00:47:43.940 --> 00:47:49.756
at carver and I enjoyed working with
students at at phoenix union. See

00:47:49.789 --> 00:47:57.789
after It's 1954 when uh the car was
closed before the brown decision.

00:48:01.170 --> 00:48:06.967
And the rumor was that the car had
gotten too expensive for the for the

00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:15.000
district. Uh huh. Mr Robinson would
not accept second hand close I

00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:20.637
understand it before him. They would
send secondary books to carbon hood

00:48:20.670 --> 00:48:26.146
after they used that finished union
and that they got uh secondhand

00:48:26.179 --> 00:48:34.117
uniforms for the athletes. Robinson
would not accept that. Uh huh. He

00:48:34.150 --> 00:48:39.287
insisted on having the best of
everything. I was the first one to have a

00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:45.236
high fired kill in the same district.
Uh huh.

00:48:45.269 --> 00:48:53.269
I had a 35 mm thick through camera.
And in fact there was a bond issue

00:48:53.349 --> 00:49:00.697
that permitted me to design a building
more part of a building for the art

00:49:00.730 --> 00:49:06.836
department, whereas instead of being
in that one room? The major building

00:49:06.869 --> 00:49:13.896
I designed it? So we had a working
space and we had a room for ceramics

00:49:13.929 --> 00:49:20.197
which was, I had a glass partition
where I could observe at an office

00:49:20.230 --> 00:49:25.486
where it could work out of, I had air
and gas piped around so we can do

00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:33.519
jewelry, we had photography and I had
weaving and

00:49:34.469 --> 00:49:38.586
often all of these things be going on
at one time and we have some people

00:49:38.619 --> 00:49:44.117
to come and evaluate. and one person
said it's like six rings. Ooh over

00:49:44.150 --> 00:49:51.307
there man, people doing all these
different things at the same time. But I

00:49:51.340 --> 00:49:58.117
had a student teacher in fact, uh The
1st 1 said that he had to argue with

00:49:58.150 --> 00:50:03.546
the department for him to teach at
this black school because it was uh

00:50:03.579 --> 00:50:07.427
segregated. And

00:50:07.460 --> 00:50:10.526
ah

00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:17.037
but we also had students who had
learned things who would teach other

00:50:17.070 --> 00:50:23.927
students. We did silkscreen and we did
some lithography,

00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:29.847
everything that we're doing and they,
in the larger schools.

00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:37.077
But when it closed, we had About 400
students, uh and teachers from other

00:50:37.110 --> 00:50:41.947
districts and schools, We're like
vultures to get things that we had

00:50:41.980 --> 00:50:49.980
because I had usually the top of the,
the best equipment and they borrowed

00:50:50.369 --> 00:50:58.369
the finish college Uh received a 35
millimeter camera. I borrowed it back

00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:04.227
once and it was the housing was loose
and they said had been messed up.

00:51:04.260 --> 00:51:09.486
But uh we had a good time to come. How
did you feel about the fact though

00:51:09.519 --> 00:51:14.307
that barber was segregated? Did did
that bother you? Well, you see, I grew

00:51:14.340 --> 00:51:19.657
up growing up in a segregated society.
Everything I did know was

00:51:19.690 --> 00:51:27.690
segregated. So at that time I got a
chance to go out outside of of the

00:51:28.820 --> 00:51:33.827
carbon area from time to time. But Uh
huh.

00:51:33.860 --> 00:51:41.860
Mhm. I didn't know anything else. So
it didn't bother me that much.

00:51:42.519 --> 00:51:47.177
I've heard, you know, students came
from all over from Chandler and it's

00:51:47.210 --> 00:51:52.526
like that to go to school because they
couldn't go to school in their area

00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:57.947
court pain. Who became mayor of
Chandler was one of the common students.

00:51:57.980 --> 00:52:00.217
Mm hmm.

00:52:00.250 --> 00:52:05.256
Carver had a reputation of being a
pretty good school. Well, we measured

00:52:05.289 --> 00:52:11.217
Carver by his athletes would, when I
first went there

00:52:11.250 --> 00:52:17.497
they can only compete with the William
C. A and indian school I think. But

00:52:17.530 --> 00:52:25.477
they were not Class eight as such. But
with the people that Uh huh Mr

00:52:25.510 --> 00:52:30.126
Robinson brought in who had been and
he's guided the country and brought

00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:34.506
in people. Carver was very school in
the district where all the teachers

00:52:34.539 --> 00:52:36.916
had their masters

00:52:36.949 --> 00:52:43.836
and they were outstanding, where they
had come from. But the salaries paid

00:52:43.869 --> 00:52:49.717
here were much better than the ones in
the south. So we were able to get

00:52:49.750 --> 00:52:55.017
good people And Jack Adkins, who was a
football coach had been at Le Moyne

00:52:55.050 --> 00:53:02.486
College as a and his teams were always
outstanding. So Harvard finally was

00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:09.416
able to play compete with other
schools in the various athletic events,

00:53:09.449 --> 00:53:17.449
football, basketball, baseball and
when Carver closed commerce teams were

00:53:19.250 --> 00:53:23.316
outstanding, they were,

00:53:23.349 --> 00:53:31.349
yeah, he said the best of, of
football, basketball and baseball.

00:53:34.750 --> 00:53:42.217
And we feel that the the academics
were comparable. Uh I mean the Seneca

00:53:42.250 --> 00:53:47.936
who was a biology teacher and another
thing at Carvel, we were able to

00:53:47.969 --> 00:53:52.416
integrate activities.

00:53:52.449 --> 00:53:58.626
The teachers dislike Robinson didn't
like him at all because Robinson

00:53:58.659 --> 00:54:03.706
would call teachers meetings after
school, let tour in school, but after

00:54:03.739 --> 00:54:09.407
school and it might last two or three
hours, so people were, but in those

00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:15.387
meetings, well we've had a student and
be a parent and we learned what

00:54:15.420 --> 00:54:22.177
other students would like what they
were doing and Seneca an act and

00:54:22.210 --> 00:54:29.566
incorporated our classes, Biology and
art, and then miss another teacher,

00:54:29.599 --> 00:54:35.416
social studies. Sometimes a student
would have been after time researching

00:54:35.449 --> 00:54:39.267
for another class and then come back
and art and produce what they were

00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:46.157
searching. Uh This was true with
english and with history, even math. Uh

00:54:46.190 --> 00:54:54.106
so we were interrelated activities and
subject matter

00:54:54.139 --> 00:54:57.456
and you produced a lot of pretty good
students that graduated from. Yes,

00:54:57.489 --> 00:55:03.637
we did, and I think it was because of
it understanding with the uh

00:55:03.670 --> 00:55:10.077
involvement of parents as well as uh
the teachers, people in the community

00:55:10.110 --> 00:55:13.506
,

00:55:13.539 --> 00:55:17.307
but then when Carver closed

00:55:17.340 --> 00:55:22.267
with the phoenix used most of it. The
teachers were scared spread around

00:55:22.300 --> 00:55:28.046
the district. Mr Robinson insisted on
not having all the black teachers

00:55:28.079 --> 00:55:32.517
going to one school because it would
stigmatize that school. So we're

00:55:32.550 --> 00:55:36.376
gonna go in the camera back to South
Mountain and the other schools that

00:55:36.409 --> 00:55:41.706
were in existence at that time. Mhm.

00:55:41.739 --> 00:55:48.206
How did you feel about the car were
closed? I had mixed feelings about it.

00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:54.776
I've understood why. And I was pushing
to have carver stay open as an

00:55:54.809 --> 00:55:58.697
experimental school in which we would
bring other students in doing the

00:55:58.730 --> 00:56:03.646
same kind of things we were doing in
terms of relating history and art and

00:56:03.679 --> 00:56:09.467
math and art and that type of thing.
But nobody listens, I think they're

00:56:09.500 --> 00:56:12.396
trying to do that now.

00:56:12.429 --> 00:56:18.896
But Carter had 400 students. Finnish
Union has 6000.

00:56:18.929 --> 00:56:24.347
And my classes at Kabul were aged
between eight and 12. I had double

00:56:24.380 --> 00:56:30.157
periods in which we two hours. And for
one subject, my classes at phoenix

00:56:30.190 --> 00:56:36.497
here anywhere. 35 and 40. At first we
had double periods. But then some

00:56:36.530 --> 00:56:42.197
superintendent came in who was
supposedly for the arts, but he cut the

00:56:42.230 --> 00:56:45.956
double periods and we had all the
single periods. The only way I could get

00:56:45.989 --> 00:56:51.497
around that was have students take two
different classes, two subjects and

00:56:51.530 --> 00:56:57.296
or to spend a steady holding art and
take another subject.

00:56:57.329 --> 00:57:05.197
So then how long were you at phoenix
union? From forties? From

00:57:05.230 --> 00:57:09.997
let's say left hand

00:57:10.030 --> 00:57:15.896
get my numbers because 54

00:57:15.929 --> 00:57:19.197
From 54 to 66.

00:57:19.230 --> 00:57:25.506
Mhm. And you taught art there the
whole time? Mhm. All different kinds of

00:57:25.539 --> 00:57:33.539
art still. No, not exactly. Uh I used
I had to go back home my experiences

00:57:34.900 --> 00:57:41.217
in art school and in the army in order
to be able to control these large

00:57:41.250 --> 00:57:48.727
classes who was in the army we had a
lot of people we had control. And in

00:57:48.760 --> 00:57:54.697
art school there were techniques, the
way things that I used both to

00:57:54.730 --> 00:58:01.887
instruct and as a means of discipline.
Uh

00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:09.177
I enjoyed working there after the
first couple of years when I was able to

00:58:09.210 --> 00:58:17.006
two control large classes by breaking
them up by being making any kind of

00:58:17.039 --> 00:58:25.039
a society. Uh huh. Having students
grouped in the groups according to

00:58:25.489 --> 00:58:32.347
interest and techniques and what they
could do. Okay. Was it difficult for

00:58:32.380 --> 00:58:38.186
you coming from Carver to kind of the
minority teacher there? How did the

00:58:38.219 --> 00:58:41.927
white students feel about you being
your teacher? I think they were

00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:47.336
ambivalent at first. And I've heard
later on and some of them didn't like

00:58:47.369 --> 00:58:55.137
it at all. And one kid I was told by
someone I don't know it was it they

00:58:55.170 --> 00:59:03.170
would he was quite racist and I didn't
know why I should have why should

00:59:04.570 --> 00:59:12.570
be there turned out to be one of my
best friends and uh I had them doing

00:59:13.059 --> 00:59:16.936
drawing and one of the things that I
learned in art school they had they

00:59:16.969 --> 00:59:24.316
had to observe something and do a
drawing the next day ah And in order to

00:59:24.349 --> 00:59:30.666
do this drawing they had to
concentrate and if they couldn't concentrate

00:59:30.699 --> 00:59:38.699
if there was noise so They for 10
minutes and each day there was quiet. Uh

00:59:40.219 --> 00:59:44.577
in the beginning of the semester it
was bedlam until I could get them to

00:59:44.610 --> 00:59:48.787
understand what to do. Yeah

00:59:48.820 --> 00:59:52.526
I remember one teacher opening the
door and it was so quiet he couldn't

00:59:52.559 --> 01:00:00.559
understand this class being that
quiet. Uh But anyway the

01:00:02.510 --> 01:00:08.916
uh within this this group setting they
were instructing each other and

01:00:08.949 --> 01:00:16.876
they were learning to get along with
each other. There was one kid who was

01:00:16.909 --> 01:00:23.637
red obese who was put they put in
charge, she was a group leader of that

01:00:23.670 --> 01:00:31.670
group of kids about four or 5 in the
in the group. And one day she came to

01:00:32.860 --> 01:00:38.486
me and said to her friend is a little
black girl we're sick and she told

01:00:38.519 --> 01:00:43.097
her mother she wanted to go visit this
girl and the mother said oh but

01:00:43.130 --> 01:00:46.447
that's a little black girl and she
said told her brother Copeland brother

01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:54.480
, that's my best friend. So these kind
of situations broke down. Uh we had

01:00:55.329 --> 01:01:02.026
a lot of hispanic kids. We had one kid
who would just come from Mexico who

01:01:02.059 --> 01:01:04.776
didn't speak english,

01:01:04.809 --> 01:01:10.057
I had the class to elect a monitor and
the monitor was the one who kind of

01:01:10.090 --> 01:01:14.637
took charge And I learned this from
art school. The only thing about it

01:01:14.670 --> 01:01:18.686
that this guy they elected didn't
speak english. So we had to have an

01:01:18.719 --> 01:01:22.677
interpreter.

01:01:22.710 --> 01:01:30.710
And there were those, that kind of
thing that made it interesting. Mhm.

01:01:31.710 --> 01:01:34.977
Tell me, were you paid the same as the
other teachers at phoenix union

01:01:35.010 --> 01:01:38.177
when Carper closed?

01:01:38.210 --> 01:01:41.517
As far as as far as I know. I didn't
know what the other teachers were

01:01:41.550 --> 01:01:46.927
getting. Mm hmm. But it's so much
better from north Carolina. You said it

01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:52.066
was $2800 when you came. How much was
it? By that time you remember? Oh,

01:01:52.099 --> 01:02:00.099
we got several raises. Mm Hmm. It's
maybe 48. Uh, no enough

01:02:01.699 --> 01:02:06.287
by then. Had you decided that that
you're going to be a teacher for your

01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:09.327
career? Was that pretty much did you
make that decision? Somewhere along

01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:15.827
the way? I guess we did without
saying. So I came to phoenix just to stay

01:02:15.860 --> 01:02:20.146
five years. I wouldn't stay any longer
than five years. I think we're on

01:02:20.179 --> 01:02:23.267
the 11th, plan.

01:02:23.300 --> 01:02:26.717
Every time we would get an offer to go
someplace else to go look around

01:02:26.750 --> 01:02:31.396
and you see, Well, it's so much better
in phoenix than it was in Elizabeth

01:02:31.429 --> 01:02:35.876
new Jersey or a couple of other places
where we I thought we might, I like

01:02:35.909 --> 01:02:41.719
to go. Mm hmm. What was it about
phoenix that you like that kept you here.

01:02:42.090 --> 01:02:44.090
The weather and the people. Mm hmm. I think we had a lot more. Well, I got

01:02:47.039 --> 01:02:52.236
involved with a group of artists over
in Scottsdale in that area and I

01:02:52.269 --> 01:02:58.887
felt a freedom that I hadn't felt in
myself. Mm hmm. Well, tell me about

01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:03.867
that. How did you get involved with a
group of artists

01:03:03.900 --> 01:03:06.767
who were they?

01:03:06.800 --> 01:03:08.967
Well,

01:03:09.000 --> 01:03:16.566
we used to go out to tell us and just
walk around and

01:03:16.599 --> 01:03:21.206
I guess we went out there because I
had heard franklin right to speak at A

01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:25.597
S. U. And then he got invited us to
come out. So we'd go out there from

01:03:25.630 --> 01:03:31.566
time to time and one day

01:03:31.599 --> 01:03:37.467
mr wright was in this little theater
sheltering the pillars or something.

01:03:37.500 --> 01:03:43.267
And I woke up to him as mr right, I
want you to come

01:03:43.300 --> 01:03:48.416
talk to my students. He looked at me
and growled and I thought I had heard

01:03:48.449 --> 01:03:56.367
him be very caustic to some questions
that they've at A S. U. So he said,

01:03:56.400 --> 01:04:01.956
I wondered when you're gonna ask me.
And he came over to alexandria cover.

01:04:01.989 --> 01:04:09.186
He came to Carbon and I stayed for
quite a while. Uh,

01:04:09.219 --> 01:04:14.646
my ring. My wife had had made a ring
uh from the time she had been

01:04:14.679 --> 01:04:19.356
visiting the class, I was taking it,
you know, at Columbia University.

01:04:19.389 --> 01:04:26.577
Right, Right, complimented her on the
range, some suited to ask him about

01:04:26.610 --> 01:04:34.610
his what he felt was his best work. He
told the story of bananas and that

01:04:35.010 --> 01:04:40.617
when the bananas mature, they cut down
and he said he had not given his

01:04:40.650 --> 01:04:48.650
bananas yet. Uh huh. At lunch he asked
for an egg. I didn't know that they

01:04:51.090 --> 01:04:59.090
they only had powdered eggs. So yeah,
so after waiting so long the

01:04:59.789 --> 01:05:06.407
cafeteria manager came back with with
his egg, a boiled egg and he said I

01:05:06.440 --> 01:05:10.956
didn't know you had to catch the hen
young man,

01:05:10.989 --> 01:05:17.557
but that's one occasion. And then uh
huh

01:05:17.590 --> 01:05:21.256
I had

01:05:21.289 --> 01:05:27.037
I always felt that clay was a good
introduction to students who had never

01:05:27.070 --> 01:05:31.137
had any art because they could
manipulate anything,

01:05:31.170 --> 01:05:38.126
They couldn't make any mistakes. So we
had a lot of clay figures and I had

01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:42.307
no way of finding them because I
hadn't gotten killed. So I found that

01:05:42.340 --> 01:05:48.206
there was a place on Van Buren had to
kill. I went over and asked him he

01:05:48.239 --> 01:05:53.936
would fire and he said yes for
something like 10 cents 25 cents apiece. I

01:05:53.969 --> 01:05:58.896
took over quite a few pieces and after
he fired him, said he wasn't going

01:05:58.929 --> 01:06:03.166
to charge anything. But then he came
over and when I did get a kill, he

01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:07.396
came over and set it up. But I got to
meet some people threw him. His name

01:06:07.429 --> 01:06:14.747
was George Blake, uh huh. George blake
had been Goldwater's pilot. He also

01:06:14.780 --> 01:06:22.736
Was in charge of the State Fair one
year. But anyway and then there were a

01:06:22.769 --> 01:06:30.206
group of artists on Brown Brown and I
think it was Brown Street and I

01:06:30.239 --> 01:06:38.239
forget the other cross street. Uh,

01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:44.046
I'm drawing a blank right now on the
demands of the people who were

01:06:44.079 --> 01:06:50.986
outstanding and that area, uh, top
artists in the area and they became

01:06:51.019 --> 01:06:55.477
interested in what I was doing and I
would visit there and I take students.

01:06:55.510 --> 01:06:59.046
 So Uh huh.

01:06:59.079 --> 01:07:03.447
Okay. I should have written down some
of these names. They didn't take her.

01:07:03.480 --> 01:07:08.086
How did, how did you get to Scottsdale
in those days? Was it a long trip

01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:15.447
cars? And that's a good question. Uh,

01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:20.597
I guess it was five, we were here five
years before we got a car. I may

01:07:20.630 --> 01:07:25.206
have borrowed. Well, I had borrowed a
car from a friend. Mhm. And that was

01:07:25.239 --> 01:07:32.847
one way I got there. Uh, but it was a
long, a long trip.

01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:40.880
And then, uh, whenever an artist would
come through, uh, I saw in the

01:07:41.900 --> 01:07:45.916
paper, I'd call him and invite him to
come to Karma. And we had a number

01:07:45.949 --> 01:07:51.146
of people, one who had been a cover
artist for saturday evening post.

01:07:51.179 --> 01:07:56.477
Another couple of uh, ceramics is two
of internationally known. It came

01:07:56.510 --> 01:08:01.497
and did demonstrations and talked to
the students and I got to know a

01:08:01.530 --> 01:08:06.486
number of them like that. Mm hmm. You
mentioned that you heard frank Lloyd

01:08:06.519 --> 01:08:11.347
wright speak at a S. U. Um, what, when
did you first make a connection

01:08:11.380 --> 01:08:14.936
with a shoe?

01:08:14.969 --> 01:08:18.737
Uh,

01:08:18.770 --> 01:08:26.770
I had met dr Harry would harry wood.
It was a great uh got his doctorate

01:08:27.989 --> 01:08:33.546
in Ohio State and I think and we were
able to I think we were able to

01:08:33.579 --> 01:08:38.116
trace it back that Harry would was
went long lengthy guy painting around

01:08:38.149 --> 01:08:45.137
Ohio State when I was there. So that
was a connection and

01:08:45.170 --> 01:08:50.137
After Carver closed and maybe four car
would close, Harry invited me to

01:08:50.170 --> 01:08:57.237
come and teach a class on art
appreciation. So I was at a pageant teacher

01:08:57.270 --> 01:09:02.836
here long before I became a member of
the faculty. In fact

01:09:02.869 --> 01:09:10.869
one year. Yeah. I remember in 1950 my
wife who had been a science teacher

01:09:10.970 --> 01:09:15.116
at a college before coming here. And
cou could not get a job at Carver

01:09:15.149 --> 01:09:20.817
because of nepotism laws. Uh huh went
back to school and training as an

01:09:20.850 --> 01:09:25.307
elementary teacher where she could
have gotten a job. And the year she

01:09:25.340 --> 01:09:32.586
graduated I was on the faculty. We we
marched in the graduation line

01:09:32.619 --> 01:09:38.727
together and I've got a picture of me
putting the robot here. Yeah. And

01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:44.036
that was before I became part of the
faculty. Mm hmm.

01:09:44.069 --> 01:09:47.706
What was a s. You like when you first
came out here? How big was it? What

01:09:47.739 --> 01:09:55.739
was your impression of A. S. U. First
time she was red small and

01:09:55.869 --> 01:09:59.637
I

01:09:59.670 --> 01:10:06.227
didn't get well when I first came on
the faculty we were in the at the

01:10:06.260 --> 01:10:14.260
apology building and we had some big
rooms, there was a basement and

01:10:19.260 --> 01:10:25.847
I enjoyed the atmosphere there then
nothing the next year to the arch

01:10:25.880 --> 01:10:31.427
building was built. The rules are much
smaller than what we have been in

01:10:31.460 --> 01:10:37.826
and but

01:10:37.859 --> 01:10:45.607
it's hard I had to recall any
impression as such other than the fact that

01:10:45.640 --> 01:10:53.397
I yeah I had to find ways of getting
in and out and of parking in the

01:10:53.430 --> 01:10:57.517
beginning park. It wasn't as bad as it
was in the later years but it

01:10:57.550 --> 01:11:02.927
became a problem and

01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:10.376
I chose to have my classes in the
afternoon partly because I was following

01:11:10.409 --> 01:11:18.409
student teachers mainly in the day. Uh
And when I first came the there was

01:11:19.590 --> 01:11:22.927
a saturday morning class.

01:11:22.960 --> 01:11:26.927
Oh Rebecca

01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:34.960
harry wood and john waddle dragged me
out of my classroom and finish union

01:11:35.100 --> 01:11:41.826
to come to us. You which I wasn't
particularly about coming to A. S. U.

01:11:41.859 --> 01:11:48.027
Because I felt I had a laboratory and
my classroom

01:11:48.060 --> 01:11:54.807
Finnish union. Uh What I at carver I
had gotten involved with that

01:11:54.840 --> 01:12:02.840
National Education Association. Uh
huh.

01:12:10.149 --> 01:12:15.326
I'm talking about salaries and things,
not what we made it covered finish

01:12:15.359 --> 01:12:22.227
, you didn't sustain us a whole year.
So we had to find something to do in

01:12:22.260 --> 01:12:28.647
the summers and my first summer uh I
went back to north Carolina and

01:12:28.680 --> 01:12:34.717
taught summer school at johnson c
smith. Then I heard I could make $1,000

01:12:34.750 --> 01:12:42.750
and Blythe pigeon watermelons. So I
went I went Blythe pitch watermelons

01:12:43.550 --> 01:12:48.717
uh Cody Williams, Father Travis and I
were together pitching watermelon

01:12:48.750 --> 01:12:56.076
that summer and I read about these uh
I was standing on the side waiting

01:12:56.109 --> 01:13:01.156
for somebody to pick him up. Well
that's what we did in black.

01:13:01.189 --> 01:13:08.477
Pretty good shape back then. Yes, I
would. Well we were, yeah, Some of

01:13:08.510 --> 01:13:12.456
them could make $1,000 if they stacked
the watermelons in the freight

01:13:12.489 --> 01:13:17.796
trains of the trucks but it's a little
shifted and the watermelon broke,

01:13:17.829 --> 01:13:24.067
you had to pay for it. So I chose that
to do that. But to get online as a

01:13:24.100 --> 01:13:28.387
picture as you pass and you pass
watermelons went to the other And we got

01:13:28.420 --> 01:13:34.906
paid 25 cents a ton. I made $14.51 day
he batted them and tons of

01:13:34.939 --> 01:13:40.487
watermelon I pitched. So I decided
after that and instead of doing that I

01:13:40.520 --> 01:13:47.517
go back to school on G. I. So uh huh.

01:13:47.550 --> 01:13:53.086
I decided when I I looked around as to
what school I could go to I could

01:13:53.119 --> 01:13:58.076
not go to S. You because on G. I. You
had to be working on a higher degree

01:13:58.109 --> 01:14:02.717
and a master's. So there weren't a few
places that are offered a doctor in

01:14:02.750 --> 01:14:10.750
the arts Columbia and new york
university seemed to be two of them. And my

01:14:10.840 --> 01:14:17.796
but my parents had gone to Columbia so
I chose Columbia but that summer uh

01:14:17.829 --> 01:14:23.706
I took a class teaching art in high
school. Uh huh.

01:14:23.739 --> 01:14:29.597
I'm trying to think of the name now
but she was the president of the

01:14:29.630 --> 01:14:33.897
National Art Education Association and
during the class I had to talk

01:14:33.930 --> 01:14:37.006
about some of the things we were doing
in karma and she would have really

01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:44.206
come to at an aa convention and talk
about it. So

01:14:44.239 --> 01:14:49.647
mr Robinson was very helpful. Uh
Superintendent wasn't anxious for me to

01:14:49.680 --> 01:14:56.557
be off for that length of time, but I
did get associated with N. I. E. A

01:14:56.590 --> 01:15:04.590
National Education Association and
continued right relationship, but only

01:15:04.909 --> 01:15:10.246
because I didn't want to pitch
watermelons and that the G I would let me

01:15:10.279 --> 01:15:15.126
go for another master that I had to go
for a doctorate. So I went to

01:15:15.159 --> 01:15:23.159
Columbia and Marian Quinn Dicks was
the name uh said the second semester

01:15:24.939 --> 01:15:29.506
second summer I went to Columbia

01:15:29.539 --> 01:15:31.807
and

01:15:31.840 --> 01:15:39.840
I found out that I would have to take
off a year for residents in Colombia.

01:15:40.739 --> 01:15:42.739
It turns out that my former mentor at Morehouse College had moved in N. Y

01:15:45.300 --> 01:15:52.126
. U. And I went to visit him and
thought I could get do my doctorate in

01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:57.586
the summers at N. Y. U. Because I
couldn't afford to take off a year in

01:15:57.619 --> 01:16:05.366
new york and take care of my family
here. So as a result I would go back

01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:11.256
to new york every summer and but there
again I had the chance to visit

01:16:11.289 --> 01:16:16.097
with many of the artists friends and
to see what was going on in the arts

01:16:16.130 --> 01:16:24.130
and one summer victor D'Amico who was
the director of the Museum of Modern

01:16:24.289 --> 01:16:32.289
Art, invited me to go with the museum
19 to teach art. It brussels world's

01:16:33.010 --> 01:16:39.307
Fair. Uh I think he didn't write it
hell. But Haywood couldn't go in and

01:16:39.340 --> 01:16:43.956
suggested that I go. So

01:16:43.989 --> 01:16:51.989
I spent uh one summer uh that I didn't
continue my studies at N. Y. U. And

01:16:53.090 --> 01:16:56.746
that's the only time I could have
taken off and spent that in brussels

01:16:56.779 --> 01:17:03.116
teaching art kids people from the all
over the world. Mm Hmm. What year

01:17:03.149 --> 01:17:09.296
was that, World's Fair, 1958. Mhm.

01:17:09.329 --> 01:17:15.897
So did you finally get your doctorate
then? Yes, I got it in 1963. Mm Hmm.

01:17:15.930 --> 01:17:23.930
And my advisor said you're visitation
was accepted. It came in the last

01:17:24.000 --> 01:17:31.116
month. The last day for it to be
accepted. It had been any longer, he

01:17:31.149 --> 01:17:37.557
wouldn't have qualified. What was your
dissertation on masks? I did a

01:17:37.590 --> 01:17:45.590
research on african and indian masks.
And

01:17:45.630 --> 01:17:52.590
very interesting for me. And I've
continued working with masks since then.

01:17:53.130 --> 01:17:55.130
Oh yes, yes. We think of him when I think of masks. Yes, he does a

01:17:57.449 --> 01:17:59.987
beautiful job.

01:18:00.020 --> 01:18:04.946
Um So when did you decide, how did you
decide to come to work full time at

01:18:04.979 --> 01:18:10.977
A S. U. Uh huh. One of the problems.
Harriet invited me to come over

01:18:11.010 --> 01:18:18.387
several times. But there was a
problem. Uh salaries,

01:18:18.420 --> 01:18:23.416
they couldn't match my salary that I
was getting in high school. And

01:18:23.449 --> 01:18:28.446
finally they did they match my salary
and they said that wouldn't, I would

01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:34.876
have only two classes. And I was, I
had started working on a book for the

01:18:34.909 --> 01:18:40.506
university of texas, press on masks
and I felt I could finish my research

01:18:40.539 --> 01:18:46.777
and do all of that. Uh until I got
here, I find that it would take up a

01:18:46.810 --> 01:18:54.810
lot more time than I thought, but I
finally decided To come over in 1966

01:18:56.420 --> 01:18:58.687
and

01:18:58.720 --> 01:19:02.187
I thought about it over the summer.

01:19:02.220 --> 01:19:07.147
We were, I went up to Flagstaff and I
remember calling back to tell him

01:19:07.180 --> 01:19:13.137
that, thank you, but I'm not gonna
take it over. And I told the principle

01:19:13.170 --> 01:19:17.086
of finished union that I decided not
to go to S. U. And it took me out to

01:19:17.119 --> 01:19:21.326
lunch first time you've ever done that
and Dean brian's would call me and

01:19:21.359 --> 01:19:27.906
gave me a long talk about how much
more I could get done uh teaching here

01:19:27.939 --> 01:19:33.487
than in the high school and how I
could use teachers to extend some of the

01:19:33.520 --> 01:19:38.586
things that I have been able to work
out

01:19:38.619 --> 01:19:45.887
very reluctantly said, okay, I'll come
And that was in 1966,

01:19:45.920 --> 01:19:50.387
but I've never regretted it. After the
first year, the first year was ruff

01:19:50.420 --> 01:19:55.147
, I would have gone back to the high
school

01:19:55.180 --> 01:20:01.576
any chance I would have had.

01:20:01.609 --> 01:20:09.609
First of all the, they had be teaching
A 2-hour class once a week and I'm

01:20:09.909 --> 01:20:13.206
trying to do the things I did in the
high school in this two hour class

01:20:13.239 --> 01:20:19.977
once a week. So I increased that to
twice a week and

01:20:20.010 --> 01:20:25.647
the assignments that I gave my
students, they complained. In fact,

01:20:25.680 --> 01:20:28.956
somebody went to the president
complained about it. I said this is what

01:20:28.989 --> 01:20:35.637
high school students would do and

01:20:35.670 --> 01:20:43.670
that that was a difficult part to
begin with. Uh But they had me doing

01:20:44.949 --> 01:20:50.277
this saturday morning class. Well

01:20:50.310 --> 01:20:53.576
these were but

01:20:53.609 --> 01:21:01.609
potential student teachers and they
had they were meeting kids who who

01:21:01.779 --> 01:21:08.277
came from the Temple area, ain't it?
First Children of teachers and others

01:21:08.310 --> 01:21:16.310
, but I was interested in them seeing
kids who came from other areas. So

01:21:17.210 --> 01:21:20.746
instead of all that, the first year I
had more teachers than I had

01:21:20.779 --> 01:21:26.477
students or these Children. Uh huh. So
I had them to go out in the

01:21:26.510 --> 01:21:33.876
community. I was set up workshops and
gave them credit for teaching these

01:21:33.909 --> 01:21:37.477
different classes. Uh

01:21:37.510 --> 01:21:43.277
They were teaching and church
basements and community centers and

01:21:43.310 --> 01:21:47.437
different places. Some of them found
places on their own. In fact a couple

01:21:47.470 --> 01:21:50.527
came back one day and told me where
they had been teaching And it

01:21:50.560 --> 01:21:56.177
frightened me because I said that's
the bucket of blood down Buckeye Road

01:21:56.210 --> 01:22:03.467
in 7th Avenue. But anyway and then I
was on the board of the Urban League

01:22:03.500 --> 01:22:10.256
and they were building housing unit On
44th Street, it's just north of

01:22:10.289 --> 01:22:18.289
Magdala and I said well we need and
our teaching residents in this area,

01:22:18.300 --> 01:22:24.767
they didn't know what I was talking
about, but they agreed. So

01:22:24.800 --> 01:22:31.366
uh we don't know how we're going to
fund it, we'll get somebody. And I was

01:22:31.399 --> 01:22:38.326
a board meeting a party of the board,
joe Laken was on the board. I told

01:22:38.359 --> 01:22:44.357
him what I had in mind and he said
well what do you need come by my office.

01:22:44.390 --> 01:22:50.336
So I went by his office and he said
how much would it cost? Yeah, Not

01:22:50.369 --> 01:22:54.527
having any idea about costs. I said
$5,000. That could have easily said

01:22:54.560 --> 01:23:01.767
50,000. And there was a woman who was
searching for a place to do her

01:23:01.800 --> 01:23:07.487
doctorate. She had come from Illinois.
She was looking at A. S. U. And the

01:23:07.520 --> 01:23:15.520
university of Oregon in Eugene. And
and I told him about this uh job of

01:23:16.600 --> 01:23:22.357
what Doing a doctorate as a art
teacher and residents at this Hayden Park

01:23:22.390 --> 01:23:28.267
on 44th Street. She chose to do that.
So Grace Hampton became the first

01:23:28.300 --> 01:23:34.666
black woman to get a doctorate in the
art department. And

01:23:34.699 --> 01:23:42.699
the research showed that the incidents
of vandalism was very small and

01:23:42.810 --> 01:23:47.737
hate park who has an assembly unit on
the other side of town. They were

01:23:47.770 --> 01:23:53.256
paying up to $10,000 a year renovating
uh department apartments that had

01:23:53.289 --> 01:23:56.116
been vandalized.

01:23:56.149 --> 01:24:01.467
The tenant turnover was very low.

01:24:01.500 --> 01:24:08.416
In fact I I went to my dentist several
years ago and there was a woman who

01:24:08.449 --> 01:24:13.756
was assistant who had lived in the
department and told us how much they

01:24:13.789 --> 01:24:18.607
enjoyed being and how they hated to
move someplace else. We tried to get

01:24:18.640 --> 01:24:24.296
hurt. In fact, I ran across it and let
us the other day which we had

01:24:24.329 --> 01:24:32.329
written to the department of housing
to to talk about uh the values of the

01:24:33.470 --> 01:24:38.187
art teaching residents in this unit
and how it could be replicated across

01:24:38.220 --> 01:24:43.826
the country. But we didn't we didn't
get to take us on that. So the issue

01:24:43.859 --> 01:24:50.446
hired you to teach, what courses were
you teaching here at issue

01:24:50.479 --> 01:24:54.446
at the high school, teaching right
into high school. So you weren't

01:24:54.479 --> 01:24:57.826
teaching so much how to do art, but
how did you were teaching how to teach

01:24:57.859 --> 01:25:03.296
art? Yes. But then in the course of
doing that, we will teach you how to

01:25:03.329 --> 01:25:09.086
do art because I had each one of them
developing techniques of various

01:25:09.119 --> 01:25:17.119
methods and to present that to the
class. And uh one of the things I think

01:25:17.170 --> 01:25:22.706
most people seem to have enjoyed was a
research on producing uh

01:25:22.739 --> 01:25:30.739
papermaking or doing silk screen
printing, jewelry, making uh things. Some

01:25:31.279 --> 01:25:35.177
of the kids, some of the things they
came up with, I knew nothing about,

01:25:35.210 --> 01:25:41.956
but they were experts in it and they
were able to teach each other. Ah

01:25:41.989 --> 01:25:47.137
And then the saturday Morning
Children's arts program, you say at first

01:25:47.170 --> 01:25:50.817
you weren't very happy about having to
do that, but that grew into quite a

01:25:50.850 --> 01:25:58.756
program, didn't it? Uh It is now uh
Bernard Young has developed that into

01:25:58.789 --> 01:26:04.597
a larger program but I had my instead
of on the campus here, I had them

01:26:04.630 --> 01:26:11.296
all over the the city, mainly in
phoenix, but some of them are empty, so

01:26:11.329 --> 01:26:14.916
you didn't never brought them back to
the campus. Not on saturday morning

01:26:14.949 --> 01:26:18.147
because I haven't done a story with
Bernard Young and getting all those

01:26:18.180 --> 01:26:23.937
kids all over the place. Yeah, we'll
talk a little bit about working at A

01:26:23.970 --> 01:26:30.046
. S. U. Were you one of the few black
professors here at the at the time?

01:26:30.079 --> 01:26:33.847
Ah

01:26:33.880 --> 01:26:39.126
john what's old rip? Woods was here In
fact rip was one of those who

01:26:39.159 --> 01:26:45.680
convinced me to come to the issue, he
was on the faculty at the time. Mhm.

01:26:46.180 --> 01:26:48.180
And there was another an education uh God you can't think of his name is

01:26:50.859 --> 01:26:57.277
some of the other night. Uh huh. But
there were very few and as we grew we

01:26:57.310 --> 01:27:04.557
formed the black faculty staff uh
organization. Have a brief period. I was

01:27:04.590 --> 01:27:12.217
chair, why did you form that group? Oh
right. You need to feel some

01:27:12.250 --> 01:27:17.987
support close by and some some people
who were in the same problem and to

01:27:18.020 --> 01:27:23.046
understand what some of the problems
may have been with other people. Mhm.

01:27:23.079 --> 01:27:27.156
Did you have problems with some of the
other faculties, There were those

01:27:27.189 --> 01:27:34.767
that were having problems I never
really got into that, these of it, but I

01:27:34.800 --> 01:27:38.756
think they're being supportive of john
Edwards is what I was trying to

01:27:38.789 --> 01:27:46.789
think of. You know him he was in
education. Mhm

01:27:47.579 --> 01:27:54.057
mm hmm. So You came to work here full
time then in 1966? Yes. Where was

01:27:54.090 --> 01:27:58.527
your office at that time? When I first
came we were in anthropology

01:27:58.560 --> 01:28:05.107
building. But then when the new
building was erected, office was in the in

01:28:05.140 --> 01:28:13.140
that building which is the art
building now mm hmm. On the 2nd floor. Um

01:28:13.970 --> 01:28:19.586
Were you able to also continue doing
your art then? Yes. I did some I

01:28:19.619 --> 01:28:27.619
didn't do it as much as I wanted to
but I did some and right had a few

01:28:27.859 --> 01:28:30.937
highlights. I got uh

01:28:30.970 --> 01:28:38.446
I got an award once for research or
some phase of that. And I had three

01:28:38.479 --> 01:28:40.737
sabbaticals.

01:28:40.770 --> 01:28:43.237
Ah

01:28:43.270 --> 01:28:48.696
1st sabbatical one was to research

01:28:48.729 --> 01:28:56.067
an interview black artists around the
country which I did. Another one was

01:28:56.100 --> 01:29:02.336
to interview community art programs
like we were trying to do. And I

01:29:02.369 --> 01:29:09.277
interviewed those in Minneapolis, in
Atlanta and in Washington D. C. And

01:29:09.310 --> 01:29:17.310
in Los Angeles. Uh huh. But okay and
the last her last one that I had uh

01:29:22.069 --> 01:29:30.069
huh My wife was uh applying for a
sabbatical at the same time and both of

01:29:30.569 --> 01:29:36.237
us applied for a year as she got a
year. I got a semester

01:29:36.270 --> 01:29:43.737
and we were gonna we're going to
interview

01:29:43.770 --> 01:29:51.637
teachers and schools. Yeah in africa
and in South America about teaching,

01:29:51.670 --> 01:29:59.670
hers was teaching biology, that was
teaching art. Uh huh. So we spent that

01:30:00.659 --> 01:30:05.126
that year that semester

01:30:05.159 --> 01:30:12.027
both in africa and South America. I
had in the summer I was in New york

01:30:12.060 --> 01:30:16.977
and violent man who had been head of
the biology department at Cortez high

01:30:17.010 --> 01:30:22.906
school had wanted my wife to come to
move from she was at Carl Hayden at

01:30:22.939 --> 01:30:26.847
first and then when I went to a she
moved to finish union. He wanted her

01:30:26.880 --> 01:30:34.427
to come to Cortez which he didn't do.
But one summer I met him in new york.

01:30:34.460 --> 01:30:39.527
He was joining a group of teachers
going to Africa and they were having

01:30:39.560 --> 01:30:44.777
various classes. So he invited me to
go to class with him. Uh said he was

01:30:44.810 --> 01:30:50.756
supposed to have a surprise visitor.
So I went to class and his surprise

01:30:50.789 --> 01:30:56.956
visitor was Julius who became
president of Tanzania. And going down the

01:30:56.989 --> 01:31:01.326
elevator with him I said to him I
wanted to come to Africa what we were

01:31:01.359 --> 01:31:07.687
doing. So he said write to him I wrote
and I got a letter back from his

01:31:07.720 --> 01:31:14.427
supervisor of education inviting me to
visit them in Tanzania. So we did

01:31:14.460 --> 01:31:18.767
we got there and there was a like a
red carpet all the teachers were out

01:31:18.800 --> 01:31:26.800
there to meet us but it became quite
an event. We will lucky to have

01:31:27.289 --> 01:31:35.289
friends who we had met here who we're
with a. I. D. And they had gotten us

01:31:36.659 --> 01:31:44.659
interested in the trip and introduced
us to the us as director who I sent

01:31:47.189 --> 01:31:51.897
word around where we were going and
what we were interested in. So we got

01:31:51.930 --> 01:31:58.807
invitations to lecture and various uh
schools and universities in Africa

01:31:58.840 --> 01:32:06.840
and South America. Uh huh. I was
lecturing on teaching art uh to multiple

01:32:09.369 --> 01:32:17.369
groups also all my massive research
influence of African item modern I.

01:32:17.850 --> 01:32:23.057
And number of places requested the
lectures. But when we lectured we've

01:32:23.090 --> 01:32:27.406
got an honorarium and if we hadn't
gotten that we wouldn't have been able

01:32:27.439 --> 01:32:35.439
to go as far and do as many things as
we did. Uh huh. Okay we we I started

01:32:36.899 --> 01:32:43.317
out and Nairobi and we're out

01:32:43.350 --> 01:32:46.277
ah

01:32:46.310 --> 01:32:53.517
to God and we had

01:32:53.550 --> 01:32:59.006
a man had visited carroll high school
from England. He was in charge of

01:32:59.039 --> 01:33:05.307
exchange students in the from written
written into the United States. And

01:33:05.340 --> 01:33:10.607
he came to carbon. He said that he had
heard that he should, someone had

01:33:10.640 --> 01:33:17.937
told him he should visit Carla but the
superintendent and other, I didn't

01:33:17.970 --> 01:33:24.116
want him to come to Carver but he had
insisted when he came he said that

01:33:24.149 --> 01:33:31.116
this is the most exciting class I've
been into have been in America. Uh

01:33:31.149 --> 01:33:38.366
when I came to teach at a S. U. He had
gone to kenya to set up an

01:33:38.399 --> 01:33:43.927
education program and he wanted me to
come to kenya but I had just come to

01:33:43.960 --> 01:33:49.916
a S. U. About six months and I
couldn't drop this to go to another job.

01:33:49.949 --> 01:33:56.916
But when we got to kenya, he had made
arrangements for us And uh, and

01:33:56.949 --> 01:34:03.607
exactly club where we would stay at
eating offer and I think we paid about

01:34:03.640 --> 01:34:11.307
uh huh $30 a week. Whereas in the
Hyatt and the other places, it was very

01:34:11.340 --> 01:34:15.307
expensive. Uh,

01:34:15.340 --> 01:34:19.807
we were in

01:34:19.840 --> 01:34:27.840
average coast and we had met a woman
and it s you who was from the uh,

01:34:29.960 --> 01:34:36.107
university of the average coast and
she was a PhD in crystallography.

01:34:36.140 --> 01:34:41.946
Ah And we told him we wanted to come
to the agriculture. So she had made

01:34:41.979 --> 01:34:47.826
arrangements for us to be uh, for
housing, which was much less expensive

01:34:47.859 --> 01:34:51.996
than the hotel, which,

01:34:52.029 --> 01:34:59.137
which is very expensive and she would
meet us and take us around different

01:34:59.170 --> 01:35:02.406
places. Had

01:35:02.439 --> 01:35:09.006
invitation to lecture at ecole on both
sides and the average coast at

01:35:09.039 --> 01:35:11.406
happy.

01:35:11.439 --> 01:35:14.107
And

01:35:14.140 --> 01:35:17.637
I,

01:35:17.670 --> 01:35:22.206
okay. I presented one of them thinking
which one might present a lecture

01:35:22.239 --> 01:35:28.467
in French. And the U. S. A. S.
Director said, I think we better bring in

01:35:28.500 --> 01:35:35.206
an interpreter for the 2nd 1. So we
brought this man in there who had on a

01:35:35.239 --> 01:35:41.637
four, I should have won the north
Carolina colleges again and think of

01:35:41.670 --> 01:35:46.357
which one right now. But I thought he
was from north Carolina. But it

01:35:46.390 --> 01:35:50.807
turned out he was from average are,
who had gone to school there at this

01:35:50.840 --> 01:35:57.477
college in north Carolina. So I did my
lecture and at the end of the

01:35:57.510 --> 01:36:01.656
lecture, he sat there and said well
where did you see anything? He said. I

01:36:01.689 --> 01:36:07.046
understood what you were saying. I
didn't need to say. Ah We had a number

01:36:07.079 --> 01:36:12.496
of interesting experiences like that.
Uh huh.

01:36:12.529 --> 01:36:20.529
How long were you at S. U. 22 years
80. 66 to 88 mm Hmm. Any experiences

01:36:22.909 --> 01:36:28.796
you had here that stand out in your
mind about teaching your day issue?

01:36:28.829 --> 01:36:33.656
Uh huh. I tried to do in the summer of
what we did during the winter which

01:36:33.689 --> 01:36:37.597
was really too much. I realized that
after a while and we stopped it. But

01:36:37.630 --> 01:36:43.206
the last summer class that that talk I
knew that the students were unhappy

01:36:43.239 --> 01:36:50.517
about some of the requirements. So let
them let it all out. And one woman

01:36:50.550 --> 01:36:54.227
got up and said you haven't taught us
anything, You wasted that time. And

01:36:54.260 --> 01:37:01.597
she went on and on and on and I felt
really bad

01:37:01.630 --> 01:37:08.996
the beginning of the year I got a long
distance call from the same person

01:37:09.029 --> 01:37:13.536
saying I'm so glad you had us to do
this. I'm so glad you made this do

01:37:13.569 --> 01:37:19.506
these things. And that kind of made me
feel that it was worth what I was

01:37:19.539 --> 01:37:26.996
demanding even though I was getting a
lot of people upset along the way.

01:37:27.029 --> 01:37:34.616
 They appreciated it later. Yes.

01:37:34.649 --> 01:37:38.196
Did you have much connection with the
university presidents when you were

01:37:38.229 --> 01:37:40.336
here

01:37:40.369 --> 01:37:47.267
very little. Uh

01:37:47.300 --> 01:37:53.517
I was surprised at home in Durham was
one of signed the first contract

01:37:53.550 --> 01:37:58.826
with Harry would and I, the things I
had heard about her over there and

01:37:58.859 --> 01:38:04.446
we're not did make me feel that he
would be very receptive but he was and

01:38:04.479 --> 01:38:11.786
Russ, russell nelson. It was very
supportive and

01:38:11.819 --> 01:38:17.857
I don't know what occasions but we
didn't meet and then some years later

01:38:17.890 --> 01:38:21.977
and I was doing a workshop at the
university of Oregon and Russell was

01:38:22.010 --> 01:38:30.010
there and we had a good uh
relationship against uh huh tooth heller

01:38:32.819 --> 01:38:35.187
was

01:38:35.220 --> 01:38:40.027
I guess he he was applying or he was
being considered for the dean of the

01:38:40.060 --> 01:38:45.477
College of Finance and I was on the
committee that was making this

01:38:45.510 --> 01:38:52.727
election and I found that Giselle had
come, he came here from university

01:38:52.760 --> 01:38:56.086
in Canada but he admitted

01:38:56.119 --> 01:39:02.387
penn state University where he had set
up a an arts program which in which

01:39:02.420 --> 01:39:09.286
he brought in bob Blackburn who was a
good friend of mine who has had a uh

01:39:09.319 --> 01:39:17.319
print shop in new york that became
worldwide known but jules was also

01:39:17.420 --> 01:39:24.036
involved in a print shop in Mexico
where a number of people are for me

01:39:24.069 --> 01:39:32.069
with were involved. So his broad sense
in terms of not only his skills to

01:39:32.859 --> 01:39:38.536
produce but his sensitive of
understanding peoples from different cultures.

01:39:38.569 --> 01:39:43.987
 I felt made him excellent person.

01:39:44.020 --> 01:39:47.946
If you don't know he's got an exhibit
now out of the cattle track, girl

01:39:47.979 --> 01:39:55.746
power jules. Helen and his friends and
a number of former faculty included

01:39:55.779 --> 01:40:02.876
in that. Yes, I have a couple. There.

01:40:02.909 --> 01:40:06.937
Are there any things that that you
didn't accomplish that you weren't able

01:40:06.970 --> 01:40:13.836
to do it? S you that you wanted to do
that write a book and they had the

01:40:13.869 --> 01:40:19.296
time I did right. Yes. Harry would was
responsible. And I guess that's the

01:40:19.329 --> 01:40:24.967
way you get things written. Harry Wood
was doing a series of various art

01:40:25.000 --> 01:40:32.086
books that he asked me if I would do.
What um The Ethics of Blacks. Uh I

01:40:32.119 --> 01:40:37.876
agreed to do it. William C Brown uh

01:40:37.909 --> 01:40:44.626
was the publisher and I put it off
because I was going on sabbatical lists

01:40:44.659 --> 01:40:50.517
and africa and south America and then
something else came up and I put it

01:40:50.550 --> 01:40:55.366
off with something else and I kept
pushing it back. I finally got around

01:40:55.399 --> 01:40:59.876
to writing it and

01:40:59.909 --> 01:41:01.977
the

01:41:02.010 --> 01:41:07.876
the day the last proof came back to be
uh huh

01:41:07.909 --> 01:41:13.237
the violent couldn't be proof of it. I
stayed and did that instead of

01:41:13.270 --> 01:41:18.046
going to the past decade. Sestak was
the second World Festival of Black

01:41:18.079 --> 01:41:24.446
and African Arts and I had been on the
board of that. Uh it was to take

01:41:24.479 --> 01:41:30.477
place in Lagos. Uh

01:41:30.510 --> 01:41:35.517
Jeff Donaldson who was then chairman
of the Art department at Howard

01:41:35.550 --> 01:41:42.277
University was chair of the north
american section. And we have been

01:41:42.310 --> 01:41:49.437
meeting every month in Washington for
a couple of years setting up this

01:41:49.470 --> 01:41:54.376
program? We had planned to send some
8000

01:41:54.409 --> 01:42:00.536
american artists, Poets. Uh literature
artists, visual artists, musicians

01:42:00.569 --> 01:42:08.569
and whatnot to Lagos. But that was a
cool. And they they had to postpone

01:42:09.649 --> 01:42:17.067
it. And finally this uh, it was coming
about and the plane to take the

01:42:17.100 --> 01:42:23.616
people too. Africa came at the same
day. My book came back to be proof

01:42:23.649 --> 01:42:29.706
arrest. So I decided to stay here
instead of going back. But we had been

01:42:29.739 --> 01:42:34.836
in Lagos when I was on sabbatical and
the place was crowded and I knew

01:42:34.869 --> 01:42:40.687
that people coming up from all over
the world. But uh huh. I was I was

01:42:40.720 --> 01:42:47.206
able to get four people from phoenix
from Arizona to go to rip woods was

01:42:47.239 --> 01:42:52.897
one Mark Herring over here was another
Grace Hampton who was our doctoral

01:42:52.930 --> 01:42:58.166
student was another. And it was one a
student from John Biggers. Uh huh.

01:42:58.199 --> 01:43:06.199
Texas Southern who was here. Uh
Criminal Oliver. And they went to two

01:43:07.779 --> 01:43:15.166
Nigeria for the Second World Festival
of Black and African arts. Mm hmm.

01:43:15.199 --> 01:43:18.487
And you stayed and proofread your
ebook. I stayed and proof read my book.

01:43:18.520 --> 01:43:23.567
Which which was the right thing to do.
You finally got that book?

01:43:23.600 --> 01:43:28.967
Probably. I finally got that book
published. Yes.

01:43:29.000 --> 01:43:33.347
But I did not get the one on masks
then.

01:43:33.380 --> 01:43:39.767
No. No. Still got a few years left.
Hopefully. Hopefully.

01:43:39.800 --> 01:43:44.057
Mhm. As you think back over your years
here. Is there anything that you're

01:43:44.090 --> 01:43:52.090
most proud of that you'd like to be
remembered for. Mm hmm.

01:43:57.600 --> 01:44:02.467
I guess we are working with students
And the responses that these students

01:44:02.500 --> 01:44:08.057
have made years afterwards. Ah

01:44:08.090 --> 01:44:14.336
I've been mm hmm honored at the E. A
largely because of some of the

01:44:14.369 --> 01:44:22.369
students. And there is a as a a
scholarship named for me and but the

01:44:23.430 --> 01:44:30.756
relationship that I have had with
students, the thing that I feel

01:44:30.789 --> 01:44:38.156
best about, I don't have any
particular one monument as such.

01:44:38.189 --> 01:44:41.586
Did you ever think when you came to
Arizona that you would be here for the

01:44:41.619 --> 01:44:47.456
rest of your life? I thought I'd be
here five years at the most.

01:44:47.489 --> 01:44:50.956
How have you seen the state change?

01:44:50.989 --> 01:44:55.967
Uh from a very small to very large.
The population is great. The roads are

01:44:56.000 --> 01:45:02.357
crowded. Uh I think this date has gone
through. Some

01:45:02.390 --> 01:45:10.390
made the changes we've gone from to
Janice and napolitano.

01:45:10.489 --> 01:45:18.489
Uh huh. And there has been a, I think
the general improvement in the

01:45:18.989 --> 01:45:26.989
quality, not in the air, but then uh
in education and in the way people

01:45:27.710 --> 01:45:35.710
see one another except there's a
greater sense of diversity now. Mhm. Your

01:45:35.920 --> 01:45:41.206
your your parents were educators. Yes.
And you know, the first thing you

01:45:41.239 --> 01:45:44.107
said to us was you didn't want to be
an educator. What do you think they

01:45:44.140 --> 01:45:48.887
would think that you spend in your
life? I think they would appreciate it.

01:45:48.920 --> 01:45:55.196
Yes. My dad and my mother were always
supportive or whatever. I decided

01:45:55.229 --> 01:45:59.897
to do. And I think it was because my
mother's support that I was able to

01:45:59.930 --> 01:46:06.446
stay at Morehouse and finished there
because my dad wanted me to come home.

01:46:06.479 --> 01:46:13.906
Mhm. But and after years they were
very supportive. Mhm. Did your

01:46:13.939 --> 01:46:21.756
Children follow you into education? Uh
Yes in a way my oldest son both of

01:46:21.789 --> 01:46:28.786
them finished finished union and my
oldest son went to Occidental and I

01:46:28.819 --> 01:46:33.456
think I got a scholarship but he was
going to be an engineer. But after I

01:46:33.489 --> 01:46:39.336
think six months he changes change the
education. He finished accidental

01:46:39.369 --> 01:46:46.777
got a doctorate from U. C. L. A. And
then he he talked at U. C. L. A. He

01:46:46.810 --> 01:46:52.807
was teaching urban planning For 30
years before he quit. I said he quit,

01:46:52.840 --> 01:46:58.737
he said he resigned to become
president and Ceo of the National Health

01:46:58.770 --> 01:47:06.196
Foundation in California which he is
now our youngest son What finished

01:47:06.229 --> 01:47:11.826
Morehouse 30 years after I did got a
scholarship, went to the you know

01:47:11.859 --> 01:47:16.546
we're in Chicago and finishing at the
vintage of school, got a doctorate

01:47:16.579 --> 01:47:24.579
and divinity left there and work for a
year and Ohio Toledo I believe and

01:47:26.550 --> 01:47:32.567
who was evaluating different divinity
schools until he became associate

01:47:32.600 --> 01:47:37.967
dean of the during the school at
Howard. And after several years there he

01:47:38.000 --> 01:47:43.097
became president of Benedict College
Where he stayed for eight years. Then

01:47:43.130 --> 01:47:48.336
he went from there to the congress
with Bill Clay who had been a friend of

01:47:48.369 --> 01:47:56.147
his when he was in Chicago working on
his doctorate, he'd been chairman.

01:47:56.180 --> 01:48:02.496
Uh, he had been involved in an
organization of black elected officials

01:48:02.529 --> 01:48:10.529
across the country he got interested
in and that. And Bill Clay, who was a

01:48:10.600 --> 01:48:16.317
congressman from Missouri had talked
him into coming working with him in

01:48:16.350 --> 01:48:23.506
the Congress and he was in, uh,
support on the education committee and

01:48:23.539 --> 01:48:28.147
then went to the writing of the Higher
Education Act that was made. But

01:48:28.180 --> 01:48:34.546
Bill Clay retired and as a congressman
retires, his staff retires a lot.

01:48:34.579 --> 01:48:41.536
So Marshall has set up a company of
his own in which he is.

01:48:41.569 --> 01:48:49.357
Yeah, yeah, I've got it. I'm not sure
I can explain it, but he raises

01:48:49.390 --> 01:48:55.097
funds for high school Children to go
to college and he's on the board of

01:48:55.130 --> 01:49:00.536
the USa funds, which I understand is
the largest fundraiser for students

01:49:00.569 --> 01:49:07.876
going to college and he is recently
become, it's certified appraiser for

01:49:07.909 --> 01:49:10.137
art

01:49:10.170 --> 01:49:15.347
and his concentrations of african
american art artist. So he's involved in

01:49:15.380 --> 01:49:19.906
both ways. Yes. What advice do you
give today to young people when they're

01:49:19.939 --> 01:49:23.977
trying to decide what to do with their
lives. What do you try to tell them

01:49:24.010 --> 01:49:28.637
? We're trying to find out what you're
interested in and follow that.

01:49:28.670 --> 01:49:34.696
Don't worry about how to pay the
costs, but follow what you're interested

01:49:34.729 --> 01:49:39.487
in and do as much research as possible
and we would find out as many

01:49:39.520 --> 01:49:44.777
things about that as possible? Mm hmm.
Do you think as a young person you

01:49:44.810 --> 01:49:47.336
didn't want to be a teacher? Do you
think that young people are often a

01:49:47.369 --> 01:49:54.857
good judge of what they will or will
not enjoy? No, not, not at first. But

01:49:54.890 --> 01:49:59.357
after they get into it, they'll find
out what changed your mind made you

01:49:59.390 --> 01:50:07.390
decide that you like teaching, working
with kids at carbon

01:50:07.479 --> 01:50:14.086
and seeing what happens from those who
are, who don't want to do something

01:50:14.119 --> 01:50:19.477
and who you can learn something, learn
to do and those who can succeed

01:50:19.510 --> 01:50:25.696
even though everybody else says they
can. Did you see that sometimes art

01:50:25.729 --> 01:50:30.097
would reach kids that weren't
reachable in other ways? That's what my

01:50:30.130 --> 01:50:36.567
classic finished union was made up of.
Invariably I get a class, A student

01:50:36.600 --> 01:50:42.296
who was put out of another class, uh,
some academic class or put out

01:50:42.329 --> 01:50:46.956
because they couldn't do this or that
and they would become some of the

01:50:46.989 --> 01:50:49.927
best students.

01:50:49.960 --> 01:50:56.626
That's why you had to learn to control
them

01:50:56.659 --> 01:51:01.196
june. Is there anything else that you
want? I'm glad you mentioned Harry

01:51:01.229 --> 01:51:03.427
would

01:51:03.460 --> 01:51:08.036
very favorite people here on campus. I
really did like him. But it hadn't

01:51:08.069 --> 01:51:12.336
been for her. I wouldn't have been
here. Yeah, he's a great guy. Mhm.

01:51:12.369 --> 01:51:19.677
Harry would would know know Harry wood
and rip woods? S on the ribs name.

01:51:19.710 --> 01:51:27.710
 But no? S on Harry.

01:51:30.060 --> 01:51:34.196
Anything else that you wanted to tell
us that I haven't asked you about. I

01:51:34.229 --> 01:51:41.227
think if I told it all out. Oh, I
would say my,

01:51:41.260 --> 01:51:47.527
my wife and my family have been major
supporters as well as my students.

01:51:47.560 --> 01:51:49.727
Uh

01:51:49.760 --> 01:51:55.977
my siblings. I have one sister who It
was, it was a teacher, but she was a

01:51:56.010 --> 01:52:01.887
technician at 1st and two brothers,
uh, neither of whom were in education

01:52:01.920 --> 01:52:08.166
, but they've all been supportive And
it's been a family thing. We had a

01:52:08.199 --> 01:52:12.206
100 family reunion in August.

01:52:12.239 --> 01:52:17.027
Where did you have it? In charlotte?
Mhm. They have a lot of family back

01:52:17.060 --> 01:52:23.437
there. Mhm. Mr Grigsby. Would you give
us your wife's full name? Yes.

01:52:23.470 --> 01:52:30.156
Rosalyn, thomasina Marshall Grigsby.
She was a marshal rather rather than

01:52:30.189 --> 01:52:34.946
thomasina. Marshall Grigsby. I know
you were recognized as an Arizona

01:52:34.979 --> 01:52:39.687
history maker about 10 years or so
ago. What did you think about that

01:52:39.720 --> 01:52:43.756
honor? You've gotten a lot of honor? I
was most surprised when I, when I

01:52:43.789 --> 01:52:48.166
was talked into it and

01:52:48.199 --> 01:52:53.217
that kind of thing. I think maybe Rudy
turk was responsible for that. Mhm.

01:52:53.250 --> 01:52:57.116
 You might have had something to do.

01:52:57.149 --> 01:53:01.949
And I don't know how they, how they
selected me. Greatcollection