friday, january 13th 2000 and six, friday the 13th, that's not a bad omen.
I'm pam Stevenson and I'll be doing the interview. And Manny Garcia is
our videographer and this is uh an interview for the living history video
project of the Arizona State University retirees association. And we are
at the visitor information center of S. U. At rural and Apache boulevard.
Uh and I'd like to have you introduce yourself. If you could just give me
your full name. I am jefferson Eugene Grigsby junior.
And tell me, when were you born? And where were you born Born October 17,
1918 in Greensboro north Carolina. And I think my family may have kept me
there at least three months before they moved. Someplace else. That's a
good birthday, that's my birthday 17.
A very good friend who just celebrated her 100th birthday who was born
three days before that we keep our birthdays intact.
Well, so where did you grow up then? Yeah, I grew up, started in Lynchburg
Virginia and then columbus Ohio. And then preview texas and then Winston
Salem north Carolina and finally charlotte, north Carolina. Why did your
family move so much? My dad was a teacher
we went from, he taught high school in Lynchburg. Then he, I decided to go
for a higher degree and went to Ohio State and that's where I first
started school at the level left high school on the campus at Ohio State.
Then he got a job at Prairie View texas teaching there. So we moved to
Prairie View. Then he got a job at Winston Salem State University and it
took us to Winston. And then he became the principal of a high school in
charlotte. And that's where we settle. Mhm. So how large was your family?
Would you have a lot of brothers and sisters? one sister, who was That was
eight years old when she was born? Born in texas. And I have two brothers
, both of whom were born in Winston Salem, mm hmm. You're the oldest and
the oldest. Um So your father was a teacher. I imagine education was
always important to him. Yeah. Both my father and my mother, we're
teachers.
Um so, um were you a good student growing up? Their students? Uh huh. I
had my ups and downs. Yeah. Mm hmm.
And back then, of course the schools were segregated. Oh yes. What was
that like? Well, that's all I knew from. Both college and public schools.
We were all segregated. And
first ever I went to it, any kind of school that was integrated. It was
when I went to art school in new york. And when was that? That was in 1939
,
Mhm. Had you gone to college before that? Yes. I went to, I started
college at johnson c smith University in charlotte because it was a mile
from home, but they had no art. And I had studied dabbling in art from,
from a man who uh I was on my paper route. And when I went to collect from
him I saw these paintings and ask him where he got him and he said he
painted him and I left because he didn't look like my concept of what an
artist should be. He was so what and quite black you know he'd only gone
too about fourth grade and all the artists pictures I had seen were blind
and what so but I had started I got interested in and uh alright but smith
had no heart and after a year I went to visit a girl in Atlanta and she
took me to my first exhibit where met Hale Woodruff who was a well known
artist at the time. And when I told him what I was doing he said you can
take art here. So I I called my family, I wrote and I wanted to stay in
Atlanta and go to Morehouse where I could take our and they told me to
come home immediately. Uh huh. I had gone to see a girl. I was 16 years
old. So no but finally I guess my mother had something to do with it. They
said stay there until you hear from me. So my dad brought my clothes and I
finally enrolled at Morehouse and stayed there For the next three years.
So that was you were only 16. So you knew pretty early then what you
wanted to do in life. Ah Yeah I guess I did I knew that one thing I knew I
didn't want to teach. I had grown up with a family of teachers and my
senior year at Morehouse I
was one of two seniors who took classes in the high school for my mentor
by major professor Hill would have who was charged with all of the art in
the atlantic university complex from elementary through university. So
when it's his load got too heavy. They
Gave two of us high school classes and at the end of the year the woman
who was in charge of education and at the college said offered to give me
credit for student teaching and I said no I don't want it. Somebody might
give me a job teaching.
Uh
It was in a, I wanted to go to art school but my family couldn't afford it.
So one of the stories that my mental hill would have had talked about for
somebody incorporating himself in the southern chair. So I decided to do
that in order to go to art school. So I good so called incorporated myself
nothing legally. But this is what I said asshole chairs and for $10 and
$20,
for a painting And thank $10 for a print. And I went off to art school
with I think I had $150 to go to New York. What kind of art were you doing
at that time. What was the first part you were doing? I was painting when
oil painting and uh wood blocks. They know your wood block prints. But the
main thing I had a sculpture class but I didn't do very much with that.
Mhm. So when you decided to go off to new york to art school did you think
that you could make a living as an artist? I guess? I just didn't think
about it in those days. You just jumped in and you did what you thought
had we rude awakening? Once I got there I
lived at the Y. W. Y. M. C. A. Uh annex because I couldn't afford the main
branch of the Y. M. C. A.
And the clerk knew what I wanted to do because I was always talking about.
So he told me that was an exhibit across the street at the main branch.
So I went over to see this exhibit and there was one other person in the
room and after a while I got up nerve and introduced myself and said I'm
Eugene Grigsby from charlotte. He said I'm Jacob Clarke from new york. And
it happened that Jacob Lawrence was going to american artist school had
gone to the american artist school the year before. Oh
when I'm on my way from Atlanta to charlotte at at the end of that school
year. Uh the the director of the mint museum in charlotte. I knew what my
interests were at what I had planned to do. But she knew that okay, a
relative of hers. I think a relative, a very good friend was and shot it
and he was a major artist. She wanted him to come and advise me about my
going to school in new york. I wanted to go to the american artist school
and this man bob Gwathmey robert, Gwathmey came by to interview and talk
to me about new york and the schools. So he suggested american artist
school because it was much less expensive but also the instructors were as
good as that. The
uh art students League. I thought it is advice and he became one of my
best friends, bobby was one of the top american artists. Uh huh.
So but during that year in new york uh I got many jobs,
did things like mopping floors and cooking and anything to to sustain
myself. But at the end of the year uh hail would have had come through new
york. And it took me to New Haven with him where he uh submitted plans for
a mural, a mural for Talladega college called the amistad murals. Ah
He offered me they chance of working with him on the amazon mirror. But at
the same time my dad called and said that the state of north Carolina
would pay my way to go to graduate school anyplace but north Carolina. So
I took that and went to Ohio State. There had been the number of seven
colleges and universities at that time. You didn't want to admit blacks
because of some of the rulings, they had to either admit or find a way for
them to go. So I went to Ohio State kind of masters,
the the tuition being paid by the state of north Carolina. What year was
that? I finished 1940, went there in 39 40 In New York in 38 39.
So once you got your masters there, what were you going to do with that? I
didn't want to teach. I didn't want to teach. I was dumb. I had no idea
what to do with it, but one of the things I did, my my beatus again to
show you how unrealistic I was, my thesis was, was the influence of
african art on modern art at that time. None of the historians, any of
them felt it work coming out of africa could be called art. They didn't
realize they had a strong influence that the african art had on people
like Picasso and Matisse and an old group of modernist. And there was one
professor at Ohio State who was crazy enough to let me use that for a
subject.
I bet you learned a lot doing that. Oh yes, I did. And after I finished I
went back visiting johnson C smith uh where my dad had gone, my mother and
where I had finished my first year and the Dean asked me if I wanted a job
of course, so I became artist in residence for a year, johnson c smith.
Mhm. What did an artist in residence do back then? Theoretically artists
and residents were supposed to paint and let other people see you
producing art. Unfortunately. Uh I was called on the teacher class in
elementary school, elementary school art, which I did, that was class. My
my mother was theater and I was asked to teach a class and drama. I taught
a class and acting and went and played directing. So my year was filled up
with most things, but I didn't get a chance to do just my own painting. I
also started a group of worked with a group of kids and ah a building that
was on campus
saturday morning class for you for elementary aged Children, most of whom
were Children of the professors on campus. Mhm. So what do you do after
that year
that after? Okay.
Yeah. Okay. Then I
I taught summer school Elizabeth City State Teachers College. And then I
got a job that year and the film in college and Daytona Beach with
business Bethune who was at that time perhaps the leading uh black woman
in the country. And she was a very good friend of mrs Roosevelt and became
head of one of the national youth programs from the government. I thought
that for taught there for a year and at the end of that year. Uh
Armey said that they were not going to give me any more the pharaohs,
I think I've gotten three at that time from being drafted. But my dad
wrote and said that former mayor of charlotte was setting up a company and
and they're an army company 30 miles in Charlotte for of volunteers. But
you volunteer and you would not be uh, you could, you would be staying
there for the duration of the war plus six months. But you'd have to stay
in there only six months after the war was over. But you wouldn't have to
be worried about going overseas and went into areas where there was
fighting. So I jumped on that volunteered to go to the army.
The first person I met, Yes. Who volunteered for the same unit volunteer
because the women were after him. So he hired in Omaha that he was Assured
he'd be overseas in six weeks.
So that's the army pattern. Well, the largest group of volunteers said
volunteer because they could get out of jail. These people have been
convicted of all kinds of Felonious. So that formed the basis of our, the
company I was in, which was overseas, uh, within six months, less than a
year. About six months. That's not much time for training from being a
civilian artist to being a soldier. No, we had, we had very little
training, I think most of the people. So did they offered where a few of
them do anything about the army? But that didn't make any difference, we
were an ammunition outfit. And
after a month in the original sitting, I was sent off to school,
ammunition school savanna Illinois. It was an ammunition company where we
studied all kinds of uh ammunition from uh small arms to heavy. Um, but
our job was to deliver this to soldiers. So when we got overseas, we found
ourselves trying to keep up with George Patton's army. And okay, we did.
We survived this through France and Germany Belgium. Uh huh. It was an
interesting experience. So you were providing the ammunition to Patton's
army. So and when I went in as a volunteer, uh,
I went in as a private. But shortly after that was made a first sergeant,
temporarily. I was was voted as the first sergeant. Uh,
I knew nothing of the army and the
as people began to gather as we got more and more recruits. Uh huh. Since
that was the first one that they put me in charge. I remember
after so many people had come in, one man came up to me while we were
putting up tents and he said, I'm a I'm a first sergeant. And I said, I
don't know what the hell it is, but go out there and put up their tents.
He was later on he was he was in charge. I was seconded when when the on
the battalion
major found out he found out because one day I was sitting in a tent and I
said, Major Guy came in and said he's the first sergeant, what is that?
And then I lost my first, I lost my place and being the first one there.
But after two months or they,
there was this thing of
the chain of command and
for some reason or another, the captain who came in who knew little about
the army as I did, Had the soldiers voting for 1st sergeant. And I had
seen what the first I had to do and I was in particular be the first item
, but they voted me to be the first sergeant. Uh
After a couple of months, one of the the Captain Milton, The Milton is the
greek from Georgia and I weren't born in retreat. And the orders came down
saying that Captain Mr Titus has been reduced in rank and first Sergeant
Grigsby has been reduced okay. And
then I went off to savannah for this school and got my first check and
found out I was I was being paid a private the whole time that only these
other officers were,
we're not solid were not real. But when I got to mhm Savannah, I found
that I had been elevated to a tax ID, which was just on the first sergeant.
And then Troon.
From there we went to Fort sill. Oklahoma and at Fort sill I was elevated
from a Tech Sergeant to Master Sergeant. I had wanted to go to officer
training school. But but Major and I first camp said that blacks don't
make good officers so he wouldn't, he would uh okay for me to go down also
school. But once I, once we went to fort sill, I was elevated to a master
sergeant. I had wanted to go to officer training school so I could become
an officer as my dad had been. But then I found out from the pay I had
that if I became I get less as a second lieutenant that I was making. So I
didn't argue about going to see s anymore. But that's all early. Tell me
about some of your experiences in in europe and in the army or what was
that like? Oh, we were rained out a lot of times. We had to move from one
place to the other. Uh We were in the battle of the Bugs watching read on
the edge of it where I was supplying ammunition to soldiers and these huge
tanks rumbling by interesting thing though, and I must give them a credit.
There was the first sergeant, a very good friend of mine and he was avid
reader of army regulations and he found out that if a soldier had left his
girlfriend pregnant, it was he should be released to go back to get
married if he wanted to. So we had a situation. Uh well the steps sergeant
who was engaged to his girlfriend was pregnant. So we got him released to
go back to New Jersey in the middle of the battle of the bus.
Another thing of interest ah
what was over in europe. Uh huh. They started classes in France and they
advertised for people to teach. So I had a masters. I I wanted to get out
of where we were applied to go to go to school and didn't get it that I
applied to be an instructor or teacher. I didn't get that and it's special
service over the city because we even do so damn many things. Ah Put on a
show to do something for the men ah going overseas. We went over on the
queen Elizabeth And the troop ship with over 10,000 soldiers on that ship.
And they had put on a show uh I had gotten involved with the group in
fort sill in which we developed a marching band. Guys had instruments and
onboard Queen Elizabeth. They uh guys came to me and said are the
instruments. So when I checked with the special service officer they were
many interest instruments. So these guys would take these good old onboard
and jam session uh Special service opposite came and said do you Would you
like to be a part of the show? We're going to put on the show, would you
like to be a part of it? Would you like to put on one of your own? And I
said, well we'd prefer to make yours a better show, be a part of it. So as
we,
as we proceeded after that I had to find out who could do what. So I went
off all over asking what do you do, dance thing and so forth. And we found
quite a few people who were professionally, uh we had a piano player,
Sonny White who had done the early Billie Holiday Records. Uh joe louis
was on board and he was part of it and ended up to be quite an event. And
the director, it's a guy named joe pepperoni and I was doing some drawing
sector. I had my first exhibit in Luxembourg on the drawings that I did,
Queen Elizabeth and one of the drawings was joe pepperoni. And after we
came to phoenix early I was looking at tv and there was a new program,
yeah, new television program being directed by joe Pepitone program called
Star Trek.
Later on we said joe in the drawing that I had made of him and we visited
the the Star trek. But anyway, uh,
after the war was over. I had the challenge to do something for the men. I
wrote a show called a musical comedy called two points Shy in which yeah,
the the idea was the main character sad sack had
enough points to get out of the army, but He lost two points because he
was fraternizing with the Germans. So we had some guys who put put it to
music and I wrote the story around getting out and we to it
3rd Army Installations in Germany and in Luxembourg. Uh interesting
interestingly. Uh most of the people who were part of that are gone now,
but I found recently man who had been one of the uh played the Trumpet and
that had
Ben from ST louis and my daughter in law was in the band that he made and
a friend of ours men who came by and well one of my paintings, he said he
was the best friend of this guy and he gave me his number and I called him
yesterday. So we relive some of the Uh two points Shy. Yes, it is so well
that must have been quite an experience being part of the battle of the
bulge. So it was being shot at and you know, we were on the periphery. We
were a part of the group supplying ammunition to the troops, both the
infantry and the artillery. Mhm. Then were you part of the groups that
went into some of the towns and liberated people? We we went into one town
and we thought we so our troops in front of us. But the they don't know is
France and Germany but the people came running out saying they went that
way and we found out it was Germans we were trying to instead of r truth
because we were supposed to be behind the infantry and in front of the
artillery. So, but we didn't have any any other close calls like that, mm
hmm. Other than getting straight and getting bombed out. Yeah. In police
called a barrage. We had stacked all ammunition in an area and the Germans
came up with bombing and they bombed out the area where the ammunition was
and they began exploding. Uh the first night we were there I had to bid to
build big fox hos. And because I always tried to to emulate and to do
whatever I asked others to do, I would do. So I did me a foxhole, an
excuse for a fox. And when they all right,
when they started bombing, I
I jumped into a foxhole with somebody else
and I know what they meant by saying there's no Atheist in about. But the
next night, uh I dug when they were six ft deep and covered with some
heavy boards.
But then I heard a noise like a ticking noise. I knew that the Germans had
ammunition that was delayed. We learned that in ammunition school and it
just sounded like that bomb which had not gone off. We could hear them
whistle down, but whatever then go up and I swore it was right in my
foxhole, which was so I came out and stayed out the rest of the night.
What does that was about? The never went off, No, no, it didn't.
That's a good interesting introduction to europe. Yes, yes. So how long
were you overseas? They're in the army? We were there uh
about Year 1/2. Maybe two years. Mm Hmm.
So when when did you come home November 1945.
Were you still in the army for a while after that? No, I got out as soon
as I could.
And what did you want to do after that experience? Did you have some plans
? Well, I had married, we had married,
what was camp Rucker about now is Fort Rucker. Uh huh.
And that was shortly before going overseas and
when
when we left,
my wife was pregnant with our first child whom I saw When he was eight
months old, 18 1. So my first uh can encounter with, but
I got a job teaching at barber Scotia college where my wife had finished
uh huh. But the teacher was on leave but decided to come back shortly
after that. So I didn't have a job and I ended up waiting tables that a
place called the boards hit. I worked with a silk screen printer and I did
a few other odd jobs. I was our editor of a newspaper that was being
started with no pay and two
they, the man who had been principal of the laboratory high school where I
taught classes for my my senior year and come to phoenix and they wanted
me to come, the phoenix to teach carbon high school. Well I didn't know
where phoenix was and I wasn't anxious to go across the country. Uh by
this time we had a second child that was on the way. Uh huh.
So I kept putting him off and trying to get work from other places. I had
an offer from johnson c smith and Alabama state, but the offer from
phoenix, It was twice the $1400 they offered me at the college. So we came
to Phoenix for $2800.
And what was your first job here teaching at Carver High school? Art? They
did, it was the first time they had in the art, but mr Robinson who had
been principled, uh do what I had done, they're at left high school. Plus
the fact he and my mother had been classmates at Atlanta university and
but he was well known educator and
brought me the phoenix. What year was it that you came to phoenix, 1946.
And what was phoenix like then?
Small, Best of town where they, the, the art was very,
very little. Was that very much a part of the scene.
In fact, Phoenix was small and Scottsdale had one paved streets and there
was a party line to get a telephone line to Scottsdale. There was a party
line, you had to wait Perfect for the other person to get off the land
before you could call. Right, how did you get to phoenix east? I flew, I
flew in the full loaded planet and uh my wife had breast obsessed and
kidnapped travel with me. So too much later uh my wife and the two kids,
the boys, 1 2 years old, 1 2 months old, flew to phoenix. Ah but the plane
we flew in the plane could not land at the airport in phoenix because it
was too small. So we landed in two sides and I came to phoenix in a small
plane like a paper cup. And when he opened the door, when I got out of the
door in august I thought I was in hell. Mr Robinson was there to meet me.
But when the family came Uh huh. They spent the night with friend, we had
met uh huh who lived in Tucson and then they came to phoenix on a train.
But that's, that tells you how large phoenix was at that time.
Not for for mortar trade. So so you came to phoenix in august? Yes, that's
a
good plan and knew nothing about phoenix and the weather. In fact, I had
to look it up on the map. So I know where it was. So what did you think
your, your first arrival here? Besides that? It was hot. Well again, Mr
Robinson picked me up, he said that I have a place for you to stay with
the person. You know, I said I don't know anybody else in the phoenix
turns out that I didn't know a woman named mud weems, uh who had been a
student of my dad at Winston Salem State College. So we stayed with her
for a while and then when your family came, where did you live? Well there
was a man who lived next door two more wins and I had been telling her one
of my family become and I can't find a place for them to stay. So he said
, well I've got a room here and you got a room there so they can come and
stay. So that's what we did. We brought instead of me staying over to
Williams said and the kids and tell me staying next door, we all stayed
there and we borrowed a dog baby bed for the, for the baby at that time.
And we stayed there until the city of phoenix built barracks for veterans
over on 7th Avenue and Buckeye, which is or Matthew Henson housing
projects system. So we we stayed there uh we moved there until the boys
started getting rambunctious and mix it with the housing with the kids
from the housing project. And my wife said after he started cursing, she
said we've got to move. So we moved over 12th Street uh where the kids
went to booker t Washington, let's go let's go uh stayed there for a while
until we moved to where we are now. Oh
ninth street, 9th Street. And what we are just north of Roosevelt. And I
think we're the first family is moving north. Nothing Van Buren. First
black family, I should say. That's almost downtown now. Yes, it is. Mm hmm.
When did you move there? We moved in 1956.
Mhm. Well, tell me a little bit about carver high school. What was carver
high school like in 1946 when you got there,
cover was just a very small school. And there was no there was an art,
there was a room in which art was taught. It had been a size room, it did
have water in it, but
there was there had been no history of art interest of kids and so forth.
So uh
we had
make our way and I know
and when I was teaching at Bethune Cookman classes were small and I had to
teach something besides. Alright. And since
he was so bad, minor was drama, it was listed as english. So I had to
teach a class in english, which I know nothing about. In fact, the english
teacher had to come in and tell me what to do. I tried to copy it. So
driving the car were getting smaller. Mr Robinson said if you don't have
any more students, you're going to have to teach something else. So
I was registering students. The first one that came by and said don't you
want to take art. And he said no, I don't I don't like it and I kept
talking to him and finally I talked him into taking, taken a week and I
said if you don't like it you can get out. I figured by that time classes
would be closed and I wouldn't have to teach something else. The next week
he came in he said
I want to get out. And I said you promised to try something, you haven't
tried anything.
So I cut them into staying another week to try something. And the first
day did a drawing through it on my desk and said I don't like it the next
day, he did something else and threw it on the desk. I still don't like it
did that every day until friday. When he saw me pouring plaster in a milk
container. He was curious said, what do you want to do with that? Said
we're gonna carve it. I did an article saying that this guy loved to carve
on desks and fellow students
and he was curious and he wanted to take one home. So he took it home and
he came back on the the end of the week at the beginning of the next week
with a figure carved out of this plaster. He didn't actually get out of
class anymore. In fact, later on the next year when he was missing from
class, they'd always come to the art room to get it. Uh And I included his
a couple of the things he did in my book. Art Ethnics. But
this I dropped out of school end of the war, the korean war. And he was
going for in a few months and he came back, he's wearing a staff sergeant.
And I said, how did you rise so fast? He said he follows the general, he
does ice carvings with.
And uh after the war he settled in Washington Seattle and he visited class
at A. S. U. Telling students that what he was doing. Uh He had He said he
could make $1,000 anytime from one of the hotels during ice ice carvings.
And
recently
he did a series of uh
sculptures and what you called uh based on his teachers at carver and he
gave that to the Carbon Museum. It's a bronze uh sculpture of three of his
teachers from Carver, the math teacher, the coach and myself. Mm hmm.
Sounds like he did alright for himself in the art world.
Edward judy. Yeah. Uh And he also followed his culinary skills because he
was uh made some office, given some office in the state of Washington
having to do with foods. Mhm. Okay. So you managed to get enough students
at Carver to take art that you didn't have to teach something else. Yes, I
did. And the one that perhaps
most outstanding was the guy who uh was a freshman when I first went there.
The name rip Woods. Uh And I described another story that we fought for
four years, he was there. But ruth could do more in a week than the rest
of the class could do in a month almost. But
we were giving specific projects to do and I had to find something for him
to do because I said he was developed creative disturbances. He had the
class uproar the whole time. So I found something to challenge him which
was to do a mural on the life of George Washington carver. Uh huh. He did
research on that and he found out so many things about carver that we're
not generally don't. one of which was it University of our car had born a
slave but he wouldn't, he had gone to the university of our and he wanted
to take a heart but they said blacks don't do art so you can send them
over to agriculture.
And we ended up all of the things that carver developed in the peanut and
the sweet potato and all the other things because he could, they wouldn't
let him take art. His senior year one teacher led him into a watercolor
class And then I think 1896 world exposition in Chicago. He ended three
paintings and he got honorable mention on two cool but then he went to
tuskegee and made a name for himself there. But then rip woods
after you finished carver,
not only was a good art student, but he was a good music student and he
was a good athlete and he got a athlete fellowship to N. A. U. Which e. He
stayed there for a year and he dropped either dropped out when he came
back. He ended up going to a professional art school and then going to
phoenix college. And then they ask you where he ended up his career. Yes.
Professor Eddie issue in our department.
So when did you decide that it wasn't so bad to be a teacher? You said you
never wanted to be a teacher. I fell into it. I enjoyed working with kids
at carver and I enjoyed working with students at at phoenix union. See
after It's 1954 when uh the car was closed before the brown decision.
And the rumor was that the car had gotten too expensive for the for the
district. Uh huh. Mr Robinson would not accept second hand close I
understand it before him. They would send secondary books to carbon hood
after they used that finished union and that they got uh secondhand
uniforms for the athletes. Robinson would not accept that. Uh huh. He
insisted on having the best of everything. I was the first one to have a
high fired kill in the same district. Uh huh.
I had a 35 mm thick through camera. And in fact there was a bond issue
that permitted me to design a building more part of a building for the art
department, whereas instead of being in that one room? The major building
I designed it? So we had a working space and we had a room for ceramics
which was, I had a glass partition where I could observe at an office
where it could work out of, I had air and gas piped around so we can do
jewelry, we had photography and I had weaving and
often all of these things be going on at one time and we have some people
to come and evaluate. and one person said it's like six rings. Ooh over
there man, people doing all these different things at the same time. But I
had a student teacher in fact, uh The 1st 1 said that he had to argue with
the department for him to teach at this black school because it was uh
segregated. And
ah
but we also had students who had learned things who would teach other
students. We did silkscreen and we did some lithography,
everything that we're doing and they, in the larger schools.
But when it closed, we had About 400 students, uh and teachers from other
districts and schools, We're like vultures to get things that we had
because I had usually the top of the, the best equipment and they borrowed
the finish college Uh received a 35 millimeter camera. I borrowed it back
once and it was the housing was loose and they said had been messed up.
But uh we had a good time to come. How did you feel about the fact though
that barber was segregated? Did did that bother you? Well, you see, I grew
up growing up in a segregated society. Everything I did know was
segregated. So at that time I got a chance to go out outside of of the
carbon area from time to time. But Uh huh.
Mhm. I didn't know anything else. So it didn't bother me that much.
I've heard, you know, students came from all over from Chandler and it's
like that to go to school because they couldn't go to school in their area
court pain. Who became mayor of Chandler was one of the common students.
Mm hmm.
Carver had a reputation of being a pretty good school. Well, we measured
Carver by his athletes would, when I first went there
they can only compete with the William C. A and indian school I think. But
they were not Class eight as such. But with the people that Uh huh Mr
Robinson brought in who had been and he's guided the country and brought
in people. Carver was very school in the district where all the teachers
had their masters
and they were outstanding, where they had come from. But the salaries paid
here were much better than the ones in the south. So we were able to get
good people And Jack Adkins, who was a football coach had been at Le Moyne
College as a and his teams were always outstanding. So Harvard finally was
able to play compete with other schools in the various athletic events,
football, basketball, baseball and when Carver closed commerce teams were
outstanding, they were,
yeah, he said the best of, of football, basketball and baseball.
And we feel that the the academics were comparable. Uh I mean the Seneca
who was a biology teacher and another thing at Carvel, we were able to
integrate activities.
The teachers dislike Robinson didn't like him at all because Robinson
would call teachers meetings after school, let tour in school, but after
school and it might last two or three hours, so people were, but in those
meetings, well we've had a student and be a parent and we learned what
other students would like what they were doing and Seneca an act and
incorporated our classes, Biology and art, and then miss another teacher,
social studies. Sometimes a student would have been after time researching
for another class and then come back and art and produce what they were
searching. Uh This was true with english and with history, even math. Uh
so we were interrelated activities and subject matter
and you produced a lot of pretty good students that graduated from. Yes,
we did, and I think it was because of it understanding with the uh
involvement of parents as well as uh the teachers, people in the community
,
but then when Carver closed
with the phoenix used most of it. The teachers were scared spread around
the district. Mr Robinson insisted on not having all the black teachers
going to one school because it would stigmatize that school. So we're
gonna go in the camera back to South Mountain and the other schools that
were in existence at that time. Mhm.
How did you feel about the car were closed? I had mixed feelings about it.
I've understood why. And I was pushing to have carver stay open as an
experimental school in which we would bring other students in doing the
same kind of things we were doing in terms of relating history and art and
math and art and that type of thing. But nobody listens, I think they're
trying to do that now.
But Carter had 400 students. Finnish Union has 6000.
And my classes at Kabul were aged between eight and 12. I had double
periods in which we two hours. And for one subject, my classes at phoenix
here anywhere. 35 and 40. At first we had double periods. But then some
superintendent came in who was supposedly for the arts, but he cut the
double periods and we had all the single periods. The only way I could get
around that was have students take two different classes, two subjects and
or to spend a steady holding art and take another subject.
So then how long were you at phoenix union? From forties? From
let's say left hand
get my numbers because 54
From 54 to 66.
Mhm. And you taught art there the whole time? Mhm. All different kinds of
art still. No, not exactly. Uh I used I had to go back home my experiences
in art school and in the army in order to be able to control these large
classes who was in the army we had a lot of people we had control. And in
art school there were techniques, the way things that I used both to
instruct and as a means of discipline. Uh
I enjoyed working there after the first couple of years when I was able to
two control large classes by breaking them up by being making any kind of
a society. Uh huh. Having students grouped in the groups according to
interest and techniques and what they could do. Okay. Was it difficult for
you coming from Carver to kind of the minority teacher there? How did the
white students feel about you being your teacher? I think they were
ambivalent at first. And I've heard later on and some of them didn't like
it at all. And one kid I was told by someone I don't know it was it they
would he was quite racist and I didn't know why I should have why should
be there turned out to be one of my best friends and uh I had them doing
drawing and one of the things that I learned in art school they had they
had to observe something and do a drawing the next day ah And in order to
do this drawing they had to concentrate and if they couldn't concentrate
if there was noise so They for 10 minutes and each day there was quiet. Uh
in the beginning of the semester it was bedlam until I could get them to
understand what to do. Yeah
I remember one teacher opening the door and it was so quiet he couldn't
understand this class being that quiet. Uh But anyway the
uh within this this group setting they were instructing each other and
they were learning to get along with each other. There was one kid who was
red obese who was put they put in charge, she was a group leader of that
group of kids about four or 5 in the in the group. And one day she came to
me and said to her friend is a little black girl we're sick and she told
her mother she wanted to go visit this girl and the mother said oh but
that's a little black girl and she said told her brother Copeland brother
, that's my best friend. So these kind of situations broke down. Uh we had
a lot of hispanic kids. We had one kid who would just come from Mexico who
didn't speak english,
I had the class to elect a monitor and the monitor was the one who kind of
took charge And I learned this from art school. The only thing about it
that this guy they elected didn't speak english. So we had to have an
interpreter.
And there were those, that kind of thing that made it interesting. Mhm.
Tell me, were you paid the same as the other teachers at phoenix union
when Carper closed?
As far as as far as I know. I didn't know what the other teachers were
getting. Mm hmm. But it's so much better from north Carolina. You said it
was $2800 when you came. How much was it? By that time you remember? Oh,
we got several raises. Mm Hmm. It's maybe 48. Uh, no enough
by then. Had you decided that that you're going to be a teacher for your
career? Was that pretty much did you make that decision? Somewhere along
the way? I guess we did without saying. So I came to phoenix just to stay
five years. I wouldn't stay any longer than five years. I think we're on
the 11th, plan.
Every time we would get an offer to go someplace else to go look around
and you see, Well, it's so much better in phoenix than it was in Elizabeth
new Jersey or a couple of other places where we I thought we might, I like
to go. Mm hmm. What was it about phoenix that you like that kept you here.
The weather and the people. Mm hmm. I think we had a lot more. Well, I got
involved with a group of artists over in Scottsdale in that area and I
felt a freedom that I hadn't felt in myself. Mm hmm. Well, tell me about
that. How did you get involved with a group of artists
who were they?
Well,
we used to go out to tell us and just walk around and
I guess we went out there because I had heard franklin right to speak at A
S. U. And then he got invited us to come out. So we'd go out there from
time to time and one day
mr wright was in this little theater sheltering the pillars or something.
And I woke up to him as mr right, I want you to come
talk to my students. He looked at me and growled and I thought I had heard
him be very caustic to some questions that they've at A S. U. So he said,
I wondered when you're gonna ask me. And he came over to alexandria cover.
He came to Carbon and I stayed for quite a while. Uh,
my ring. My wife had had made a ring uh from the time she had been
visiting the class, I was taking it, you know, at Columbia University.
Right, Right, complimented her on the range, some suited to ask him about
his what he felt was his best work. He told the story of bananas and that
when the bananas mature, they cut down and he said he had not given his
bananas yet. Uh huh. At lunch he asked for an egg. I didn't know that they
they only had powdered eggs. So yeah, so after waiting so long the
cafeteria manager came back with with his egg, a boiled egg and he said I
didn't know you had to catch the hen young man,
but that's one occasion. And then uh huh
I had
I always felt that clay was a good introduction to students who had never
had any art because they could manipulate anything,
They couldn't make any mistakes. So we had a lot of clay figures and I had
no way of finding them because I hadn't gotten killed. So I found that
there was a place on Van Buren had to kill. I went over and asked him he
would fire and he said yes for something like 10 cents 25 cents apiece. I
took over quite a few pieces and after he fired him, said he wasn't going
to charge anything. But then he came over and when I did get a kill, he
came over and set it up. But I got to meet some people threw him. His name
was George Blake, uh huh. George blake had been Goldwater's pilot. He also
Was in charge of the State Fair one year. But anyway and then there were a
group of artists on Brown Brown and I think it was Brown Street and I
forget the other cross street. Uh,
I'm drawing a blank right now on the demands of the people who were
outstanding and that area, uh, top artists in the area and they became
interested in what I was doing and I would visit there and I take students.
So Uh huh.
Okay. I should have written down some of these names. They didn't take her.
How did, how did you get to Scottsdale in those days? Was it a long trip
cars? And that's a good question. Uh,
I guess it was five, we were here five years before we got a car. I may
have borrowed. Well, I had borrowed a car from a friend. Mhm. And that was
one way I got there. Uh, but it was a long, a long trip.
And then, uh, whenever an artist would come through, uh, I saw in the
paper, I'd call him and invite him to come to Karma. And we had a number
of people, one who had been a cover artist for saturday evening post.
Another couple of uh, ceramics is two of internationally known. It came
and did demonstrations and talked to the students and I got to know a
number of them like that. Mm hmm. You mentioned that you heard frank Lloyd
wright speak at a S. U. Um, what, when did you first make a connection
with a shoe?
Uh,
I had met dr Harry would harry wood. It was a great uh got his doctorate
in Ohio State and I think and we were able to I think we were able to
trace it back that Harry would was went long lengthy guy painting around
Ohio State when I was there. So that was a connection and
After Carver closed and maybe four car would close, Harry invited me to
come and teach a class on art appreciation. So I was at a pageant teacher
here long before I became a member of the faculty. In fact
one year. Yeah. I remember in 1950 my wife who had been a science teacher
at a college before coming here. And cou could not get a job at Carver
because of nepotism laws. Uh huh went back to school and training as an
elementary teacher where she could have gotten a job. And the year she
graduated I was on the faculty. We we marched in the graduation line
together and I've got a picture of me putting the robot here. Yeah. And
that was before I became part of the faculty. Mm hmm.
What was a s. You like when you first came out here? How big was it? What
was your impression of A. S. U. First time she was red small and
I
didn't get well when I first came on the faculty we were in the at the
apology building and we had some big rooms, there was a basement and
I enjoyed the atmosphere there then nothing the next year to the arch
building was built. The rules are much smaller than what we have been in
and but
it's hard I had to recall any impression as such other than the fact that
I yeah I had to find ways of getting in and out and of parking in the
beginning park. It wasn't as bad as it was in the later years but it
became a problem and
I chose to have my classes in the afternoon partly because I was following
student teachers mainly in the day. Uh And when I first came the there was
a saturday morning class.
Oh Rebecca
harry wood and john waddle dragged me out of my classroom and finish union
to come to us. You which I wasn't particularly about coming to A. S. U.
Because I felt I had a laboratory and my classroom
Finnish union. Uh What I at carver I had gotten involved with that
National Education Association. Uh huh.
I'm talking about salaries and things, not what we made it covered finish
, you didn't sustain us a whole year. So we had to find something to do in
the summers and my first summer uh I went back to north Carolina and
taught summer school at johnson c smith. Then I heard I could make $1,000
and Blythe pigeon watermelons. So I went I went Blythe pitch watermelons
uh Cody Williams, Father Travis and I were together pitching watermelon
that summer and I read about these uh I was standing on the side waiting
for somebody to pick him up. Well that's what we did in black.
Pretty good shape back then. Yes, I would. Well we were, yeah, Some of
them could make $1,000 if they stacked the watermelons in the freight
trains of the trucks but it's a little shifted and the watermelon broke,
you had to pay for it. So I chose that to do that. But to get online as a
picture as you pass and you pass watermelons went to the other And we got
paid 25 cents a ton. I made $14.51 day he batted them and tons of
watermelon I pitched. So I decided after that and instead of doing that I
go back to school on G. I. So uh huh.
I decided when I I looked around as to what school I could go to I could
not go to S. You because on G. I. You had to be working on a higher degree
and a master's. So there weren't a few places that are offered a doctor in
the arts Columbia and new york university seemed to be two of them. And my
but my parents had gone to Columbia so I chose Columbia but that summer uh
I took a class teaching art in high school. Uh huh.
I'm trying to think of the name now but she was the president of the
National Art Education Association and during the class I had to talk
about some of the things we were doing in karma and she would have really
come to at an aa convention and talk about it. So
mr Robinson was very helpful. Uh Superintendent wasn't anxious for me to
be off for that length of time, but I did get associated with N. I. E. A
National Education Association and continued right relationship, but only
because I didn't want to pitch watermelons and that the G I would let me
go for another master that I had to go for a doctorate. So I went to
Columbia and Marian Quinn Dicks was the name uh said the second semester
second summer I went to Columbia
and
I found out that I would have to take off a year for residents in Colombia.
It turns out that my former mentor at Morehouse College had moved in N. Y
. U. And I went to visit him and thought I could get do my doctorate in
the summers at N. Y. U. Because I couldn't afford to take off a year in
new york and take care of my family here. So as a result I would go back
to new york every summer and but there again I had the chance to visit
with many of the artists friends and to see what was going on in the arts
and one summer victor D'Amico who was the director of the Museum of Modern
Art, invited me to go with the museum 19 to teach art. It brussels world's
Fair. Uh I think he didn't write it hell. But Haywood couldn't go in and
suggested that I go. So
I spent uh one summer uh that I didn't continue my studies at N. Y. U. And
that's the only time I could have taken off and spent that in brussels
teaching art kids people from the all over the world. Mm Hmm. What year
was that, World's Fair, 1958. Mhm.
So did you finally get your doctorate then? Yes, I got it in 1963. Mm Hmm.
And my advisor said you're visitation was accepted. It came in the last
month. The last day for it to be accepted. It had been any longer, he
wouldn't have qualified. What was your dissertation on masks? I did a
research on african and indian masks. And
very interesting for me. And I've continued working with masks since then.
Oh yes, yes. We think of him when I think of masks. Yes, he does a
beautiful job.
Um So when did you decide, how did you decide to come to work full time at
A S. U. Uh huh. One of the problems. Harriet invited me to come over
several times. But there was a problem. Uh salaries,
they couldn't match my salary that I was getting in high school. And
finally they did they match my salary and they said that wouldn't, I would
have only two classes. And I was, I had started working on a book for the
university of texas, press on masks and I felt I could finish my research
and do all of that. Uh until I got here, I find that it would take up a
lot more time than I thought, but I finally decided To come over in 1966
and
I thought about it over the summer.
We were, I went up to Flagstaff and I remember calling back to tell him
that, thank you, but I'm not gonna take it over. And I told the principle
of finished union that I decided not to go to S. U. And it took me out to
lunch first time you've ever done that and Dean brian's would call me and
gave me a long talk about how much more I could get done uh teaching here
than in the high school and how I could use teachers to extend some of the
things that I have been able to work out
very reluctantly said, okay, I'll come And that was in 1966,
but I've never regretted it. After the first year, the first year was ruff
, I would have gone back to the high school
any chance I would have had.
First of all the, they had be teaching A 2-hour class once a week and I'm
trying to do the things I did in the high school in this two hour class
once a week. So I increased that to twice a week and
the assignments that I gave my students, they complained. In fact,
somebody went to the president complained about it. I said this is what
high school students would do and
that that was a difficult part to begin with. Uh But they had me doing
this saturday morning class. Well
these were but
potential student teachers and they had they were meeting kids who who
came from the Temple area, ain't it? First Children of teachers and others
, but I was interested in them seeing kids who came from other areas. So
instead of all that, the first year I had more teachers than I had
students or these Children. Uh huh. So I had them to go out in the
community. I was set up workshops and gave them credit for teaching these
different classes. Uh
They were teaching and church basements and community centers and
different places. Some of them found places on their own. In fact a couple
came back one day and told me where they had been teaching And it
frightened me because I said that's the bucket of blood down Buckeye Road
in 7th Avenue. But anyway and then I was on the board of the Urban League
and they were building housing unit On 44th Street, it's just north of
Magdala and I said well we need and our teaching residents in this area,
they didn't know what I was talking about, but they agreed. So
uh we don't know how we're going to fund it, we'll get somebody. And I was
a board meeting a party of the board, joe Laken was on the board. I told
him what I had in mind and he said well what do you need come by my office.
So I went by his office and he said how much would it cost? Yeah, Not
having any idea about costs. I said $5,000. That could have easily said
50,000. And there was a woman who was searching for a place to do her
doctorate. She had come from Illinois. She was looking at A. S. U. And the
university of Oregon in Eugene. And and I told him about this uh job of
what Doing a doctorate as a art teacher and residents at this Hayden Park
on 44th Street. She chose to do that. So Grace Hampton became the first
black woman to get a doctorate in the art department. And
the research showed that the incidents of vandalism was very small and
hate park who has an assembly unit on the other side of town. They were
paying up to $10,000 a year renovating uh department apartments that had
been vandalized.
The tenant turnover was very low.
In fact I I went to my dentist several years ago and there was a woman who
was assistant who had lived in the department and told us how much they
enjoyed being and how they hated to move someplace else. We tried to get
hurt. In fact, I ran across it and let us the other day which we had
written to the department of housing to to talk about uh the values of the
art teaching residents in this unit and how it could be replicated across
the country. But we didn't we didn't get to take us on that. So the issue
hired you to teach, what courses were you teaching here at issue
at the high school, teaching right into high school. So you weren't
teaching so much how to do art, but how did you were teaching how to teach
art? Yes. But then in the course of doing that, we will teach you how to
do art because I had each one of them developing techniques of various
methods and to present that to the class. And uh one of the things I think
most people seem to have enjoyed was a research on producing uh
papermaking or doing silk screen printing, jewelry, making uh things. Some
of the kids, some of the things they came up with, I knew nothing about,
but they were experts in it and they were able to teach each other. Ah
And then the saturday Morning Children's arts program, you say at first
you weren't very happy about having to do that, but that grew into quite a
program, didn't it? Uh It is now uh Bernard Young has developed that into
a larger program but I had my instead of on the campus here, I had them
all over the the city, mainly in phoenix, but some of them are empty, so
you didn't never brought them back to the campus. Not on saturday morning
because I haven't done a story with Bernard Young and getting all those
kids all over the place. Yeah, we'll talk a little bit about working at A
. S. U. Were you one of the few black professors here at the at the time?
Ah
john what's old rip? Woods was here In fact rip was one of those who
convinced me to come to the issue, he was on the faculty at the time. Mhm.
And there was another an education uh God you can't think of his name is
some of the other night. Uh huh. But there were very few and as we grew we
formed the black faculty staff uh organization. Have a brief period. I was
chair, why did you form that group? Oh right. You need to feel some
support close by and some some people who were in the same problem and to
understand what some of the problems may have been with other people. Mhm.
Did you have problems with some of the other faculties, There were those
that were having problems I never really got into that, these of it, but I
think they're being supportive of john Edwards is what I was trying to
think of. You know him he was in education. Mhm
mm hmm. So You came to work here full time then in 1966? Yes. Where was
your office at that time? When I first came we were in anthropology
building. But then when the new building was erected, office was in the in
that building which is the art building now mm hmm. On the 2nd floor. Um
Were you able to also continue doing your art then? Yes. I did some I
didn't do it as much as I wanted to but I did some and right had a few
highlights. I got uh
I got an award once for research or some phase of that. And I had three
sabbaticals.
Ah
1st sabbatical one was to research
an interview black artists around the country which I did. Another one was
to interview community art programs like we were trying to do. And I
interviewed those in Minneapolis, in Atlanta and in Washington D. C. And
in Los Angeles. Uh huh. But okay and the last her last one that I had uh
huh My wife was uh applying for a sabbatical at the same time and both of
us applied for a year as she got a year. I got a semester
and we were gonna we're going to interview
teachers and schools. Yeah in africa and in South America about teaching,
hers was teaching biology, that was teaching art. Uh huh. So we spent that
that year that semester
both in africa and South America. I had in the summer I was in New york
and violent man who had been head of the biology department at Cortez high
school had wanted my wife to come to move from she was at Carl Hayden at
first and then when I went to a she moved to finish union. He wanted her
to come to Cortez which he didn't do. But one summer I met him in new york.
He was joining a group of teachers going to Africa and they were having
various classes. So he invited me to go to class with him. Uh said he was
supposed to have a surprise visitor. So I went to class and his surprise
visitor was Julius who became president of Tanzania. And going down the
elevator with him I said to him I wanted to come to Africa what we were
doing. So he said write to him I wrote and I got a letter back from his
supervisor of education inviting me to visit them in Tanzania. So we did
we got there and there was a like a red carpet all the teachers were out
there to meet us but it became quite an event. We will lucky to have
friends who we had met here who we're with a. I. D. And they had gotten us
interested in the trip and introduced us to the us as director who I sent
word around where we were going and what we were interested in. So we got
invitations to lecture and various uh schools and universities in Africa
and South America. Uh huh. I was lecturing on teaching art uh to multiple
groups also all my massive research influence of African item modern I.
And number of places requested the lectures. But when we lectured we've
got an honorarium and if we hadn't gotten that we wouldn't have been able
to go as far and do as many things as we did. Uh huh. Okay we we I started
out and Nairobi and we're out
ah
to God and we had
a man had visited carroll high school from England. He was in charge of
exchange students in the from written written into the United States. And
he came to carbon. He said that he had heard that he should, someone had
told him he should visit Carla but the superintendent and other, I didn't
want him to come to Carver but he had insisted when he came he said that
this is the most exciting class I've been into have been in America. Uh
when I came to teach at a S. U. He had gone to kenya to set up an
education program and he wanted me to come to kenya but I had just come to
a S. U. About six months and I couldn't drop this to go to another job.
But when we got to kenya, he had made arrangements for us And uh, and
exactly club where we would stay at eating offer and I think we paid about
uh huh $30 a week. Whereas in the Hyatt and the other places, it was very
expensive. Uh,
we were in
average coast and we had met a woman and it s you who was from the uh,
university of the average coast and she was a PhD in crystallography.
Ah And we told him we wanted to come to the agriculture. So she had made
arrangements for us to be uh, for housing, which was much less expensive
than the hotel, which,
which is very expensive and she would meet us and take us around different
places. Had
invitation to lecture at ecole on both sides and the average coast at
happy.
And
I,
okay. I presented one of them thinking which one might present a lecture
in French. And the U. S. A. S. Director said, I think we better bring in
an interpreter for the 2nd 1. So we brought this man in there who had on a
four, I should have won the north Carolina colleges again and think of
which one right now. But I thought he was from north Carolina. But it
turned out he was from average are, who had gone to school there at this
college in north Carolina. So I did my lecture and at the end of the
lecture, he sat there and said well where did you see anything? He said. I
understood what you were saying. I didn't need to say. Ah We had a number
of interesting experiences like that. Uh huh.
How long were you at S. U. 22 years 80. 66 to 88 mm Hmm. Any experiences
you had here that stand out in your mind about teaching your day issue?
Uh huh. I tried to do in the summer of what we did during the winter which
was really too much. I realized that after a while and we stopped it. But
the last summer class that that talk I knew that the students were unhappy
about some of the requirements. So let them let it all out. And one woman
got up and said you haven't taught us anything, You wasted that time. And
she went on and on and on and I felt really bad
the beginning of the year I got a long distance call from the same person
saying I'm so glad you had us to do this. I'm so glad you made this do
these things. And that kind of made me feel that it was worth what I was
demanding even though I was getting a lot of people upset along the way.
They appreciated it later. Yes.
Did you have much connection with the university presidents when you were
here
very little. Uh
I was surprised at home in Durham was one of signed the first contract
with Harry would and I, the things I had heard about her over there and
we're not did make me feel that he would be very receptive but he was and
Russ, russell nelson. It was very supportive and
I don't know what occasions but we didn't meet and then some years later
and I was doing a workshop at the university of Oregon and Russell was
there and we had a good uh relationship against uh huh tooth heller
was
I guess he he was applying or he was being considered for the dean of the
College of Finance and I was on the committee that was making this
election and I found that Giselle had come, he came here from university
in Canada but he admitted
penn state University where he had set up a an arts program which in which
he brought in bob Blackburn who was a good friend of mine who has had a uh
print shop in new york that became worldwide known but jules was also
involved in a print shop in Mexico where a number of people are for me
with were involved. So his broad sense in terms of not only his skills to
produce but his sensitive of understanding peoples from different cultures.
I felt made him excellent person.
If you don't know he's got an exhibit now out of the cattle track, girl
power jules. Helen and his friends and a number of former faculty included
in that. Yes, I have a couple. There.
Are there any things that that you didn't accomplish that you weren't able
to do it? S you that you wanted to do that write a book and they had the
time I did right. Yes. Harry would was responsible. And I guess that's the
way you get things written. Harry Wood was doing a series of various art
books that he asked me if I would do. What um The Ethics of Blacks. Uh I
agreed to do it. William C Brown uh
was the publisher and I put it off because I was going on sabbatical lists
and africa and south America and then something else came up and I put it
off with something else and I kept pushing it back. I finally got around
to writing it and
the
the day the last proof came back to be uh huh
the violent couldn't be proof of it. I stayed and did that instead of
going to the past decade. Sestak was the second World Festival of Black
and African Arts and I had been on the board of that. Uh it was to take
place in Lagos. Uh
Jeff Donaldson who was then chairman of the Art department at Howard
University was chair of the north american section. And we have been
meeting every month in Washington for a couple of years setting up this
program? We had planned to send some 8000
american artists, Poets. Uh literature artists, visual artists, musicians
and whatnot to Lagos. But that was a cool. And they they had to postpone
it. And finally this uh, it was coming about and the plane to take the
people too. Africa came at the same day. My book came back to be proof
arrest. So I decided to stay here instead of going back. But we had been
in Lagos when I was on sabbatical and the place was crowded and I knew
that people coming up from all over the world. But uh huh. I was I was
able to get four people from phoenix from Arizona to go to rip woods was
one Mark Herring over here was another Grace Hampton who was our doctoral
student was another. And it was one a student from John Biggers. Uh huh.
Texas Southern who was here. Uh Criminal Oliver. And they went to two
Nigeria for the Second World Festival of Black and African arts. Mm hmm.
And you stayed and proofread your ebook. I stayed and proof read my book.
Which which was the right thing to do. You finally got that book?
Probably. I finally got that book published. Yes.
But I did not get the one on masks then.
No. No. Still got a few years left. Hopefully. Hopefully.
Mhm. As you think back over your years here. Is there anything that you're
most proud of that you'd like to be remembered for. Mm hmm.
I guess we are working with students And the responses that these students
have made years afterwards. Ah
I've been mm hmm honored at the E. A largely because of some of the
students. And there is a as a a scholarship named for me and but the
relationship that I have had with students, the thing that I feel
best about, I don't have any particular one monument as such.
Did you ever think when you came to Arizona that you would be here for the
rest of your life? I thought I'd be here five years at the most.
How have you seen the state change?
Uh from a very small to very large. The population is great. The roads are
crowded. Uh I think this date has gone through. Some
made the changes we've gone from to Janice and napolitano.
Uh huh. And there has been a, I think the general improvement in the
quality, not in the air, but then uh in education and in the way people
see one another except there's a greater sense of diversity now. Mhm. Your
your your parents were educators. Yes. And you know, the first thing you
said to us was you didn't want to be an educator. What do you think they
would think that you spend in your life? I think they would appreciate it.
Yes. My dad and my mother were always supportive or whatever. I decided
to do. And I think it was because my mother's support that I was able to
stay at Morehouse and finished there because my dad wanted me to come home.
Mhm. But and after years they were very supportive. Mhm. Did your
Children follow you into education? Uh Yes in a way my oldest son both of
them finished finished union and my oldest son went to Occidental and I
think I got a scholarship but he was going to be an engineer. But after I
think six months he changes change the education. He finished accidental
got a doctorate from U. C. L. A. And then he he talked at U. C. L. A. He
was teaching urban planning For 30 years before he quit. I said he quit,
he said he resigned to become president and Ceo of the National Health
Foundation in California which he is now our youngest son What finished
Morehouse 30 years after I did got a scholarship, went to the you know
we're in Chicago and finishing at the vintage of school, got a doctorate
and divinity left there and work for a year and Ohio Toledo I believe and
who was evaluating different divinity schools until he became associate
dean of the during the school at Howard. And after several years there he
became president of Benedict College Where he stayed for eight years. Then
he went from there to the congress with Bill Clay who had been a friend of
his when he was in Chicago working on his doctorate, he'd been chairman.
Uh, he had been involved in an organization of black elected officials
across the country he got interested in and that. And Bill Clay, who was a
congressman from Missouri had talked him into coming working with him in
the Congress and he was in, uh, support on the education committee and
then went to the writing of the Higher Education Act that was made. But
Bill Clay retired and as a congressman retires, his staff retires a lot.
So Marshall has set up a company of his own in which he is.
Yeah, yeah, I've got it. I'm not sure I can explain it, but he raises
funds for high school Children to go to college and he's on the board of
the USa funds, which I understand is the largest fundraiser for students
going to college and he is recently become, it's certified appraiser for
art
and his concentrations of african american art artist. So he's involved in
both ways. Yes. What advice do you give today to young people when they're
trying to decide what to do with their lives. What do you try to tell them
? We're trying to find out what you're interested in and follow that.
Don't worry about how to pay the costs, but follow what you're interested
in and do as much research as possible and we would find out as many
things about that as possible? Mm hmm. Do you think as a young person you
didn't want to be a teacher? Do you think that young people are often a
good judge of what they will or will not enjoy? No, not, not at first. But
after they get into it, they'll find out what changed your mind made you
decide that you like teaching, working with kids at carbon
and seeing what happens from those who are, who don't want to do something
and who you can learn something, learn to do and those who can succeed
even though everybody else says they can. Did you see that sometimes art
would reach kids that weren't reachable in other ways? That's what my
classic finished union was made up of. Invariably I get a class, A student
who was put out of another class, uh, some academic class or put out
because they couldn't do this or that and they would become some of the
best students.
That's why you had to learn to control them
june. Is there anything else that you want? I'm glad you mentioned Harry
would
very favorite people here on campus. I really did like him. But it hadn't
been for her. I wouldn't have been here. Yeah, he's a great guy. Mhm.
Harry would would know know Harry wood and rip woods? S on the ribs name.
But no? S on Harry.
Anything else that you wanted to tell us that I haven't asked you about. I
think if I told it all out. Oh, I would say my,
my wife and my family have been major supporters as well as my students.
Uh
my siblings. I have one sister who It was, it was a teacher, but she was a
technician at 1st and two brothers, uh, neither of whom were in education
, but they've all been supportive And it's been a family thing. We had a
100 family reunion in August.
Where did you have it? In charlotte? Mhm. They have a lot of family back
there. Mhm. Mr Grigsby. Would you give us your wife's full name? Yes.
Rosalyn, thomasina Marshall Grigsby. She was a marshal rather rather than
thomasina. Marshall Grigsby. I know you were recognized as an Arizona
history maker about 10 years or so ago. What did you think about that
honor? You've gotten a lot of honor? I was most surprised when I, when I
was talked into it and
that kind of thing. I think maybe Rudy turk was responsible for that. Mhm.
You might have had something to do.
And I don't know how they, how they selected me. Greatcollection