um To start off, I want to identify that on the tape that today is monday
January 29 of 2007 and we're here at the S. U. Um what do they call this
building? Community, community services building uh to do a living history
uh interview for the living history video project for Arizona State
University retirees association. And I'm pam Stephenson doing the
interview. Manny Garcia is our videographer and I'd like to have you give
us your name, So we're pronouncing it correctly. I'm Ella Mae or Ellie
branched, better
spell that for our transcriber. B R A N S T E T T E R. And do you prefer
Ellie or Ellie Mae? Um Alright. Um to start off we like to go back and
kind of start at the beginning and tell me you know when and where you
were born? Oh I was born in Oklahoma In a small town about 70 miles
northeast of Tulsa Oklahoma And was the 8th of eight Children. Family big
family In 1922. You want to give us the date July 18 in case you want to
send me a birthday card.
My mother was born July 19. Really? Isen't that interesting? Isn't that
interesting interesting coincidence? Oh so um what what was it like
growing up in Oklahoma? It was wonderful, it was a small town and called
Miami. Not Miami Black as in florida. It's spelled the same way. Yes but
the I guess the speech pattern was different and my parents had moved
there from Missouri but it was it was very nice. It was a nice friendly
town and not at all like today's society, it was a very friendly, nice
town. Why did your parents move their, what did they do? My my father was
working there. They had owned a farm in Missouri but he was also a
carpenter and builder contractor and apparently that's where the work was
at that time. So they sold the farm and moved to Oklahoma. So they didn't
do any farming in Oklahoma.
And if you were the 8th of eight Children, that was a big family. It was
very nice meeting a family like that.
So did you go to a small school then? A small school? Um I really don't
know how many schools there were in the town but there was one in our
neighborhood which was very nice and we also live near the junior college.
It was called a junior college at that time. Instead of community college
, which was nice. Were you a good student? Yes I was and I was interested
in in school, I liked it. What did you do what you like the best? Did you
have a favorite subject? No, I just I just like learning what I could
learn. It was a little girl growing up there. What did you plan to do when
you grow up? I didn't think about it much when I was a little girl but
when I got into my teens I I began thinking about it more and more and um
I decided I would like to be a nurse. One of my sisters was a nurse and so
I followed in her footsteps.
Mhm. And went to school in ST louis Missouri.
You actually grew up if you're born in 1922, you grew up during the
depression. And of course we always think of local during that period.
What was that like? Well, it was hard I think for all families including
ours. But fortunately my father was able to maintain enough jobs and
people, there was enough building going on that we were we were
satisfactory. I mean our situation was satisfactory, it wasn't ah over
the town was not overpopulated. So the work was not constant, but it was
satisfactory
when you had eight Children, did they work to to help support the family?
Uh Not really, no, because being the eighth um some of them had already
left home and and we're working or going to school someplace else. So when
I grew up There were my two brothers And one sister and myself. Um Yes,
we're older. Yes. Right. Um Did you have to work to help out? No, I didn't.
Um I did have a job after I finished high school and I also went to the
community college of the junior college which I mentioned for one year,
but it was I worked in a in a
I'm not sure how it could be described except it was a bookstore and a a
story where people caught the bus and other other things like that. But it
wasn't primarily bookstore, which was interesting for me to because I like
to read. What did you do there? Just general selling and uh maintaining,
keeping the store clean,
keeping the
books and on display an appropriate manner.
As a girl growing up, things were a lot different than they are today. Did
your family have like a big garden chickens? Oh yes. My my my family did
have a big garden. It was, there was an empty a lot right adjacent to our
home and it was owned by one of the neighbors and we had access to that my
father another planted and it was wonderful having treasure vegetables all
of the time. Didn't you help out there? I can't say that. I didn't much
help. I uh I know that I was there and I think I dropped a few seeds some
place or another, but I didn't do any really formal work. Did you have
chores that you did around the house? Uh No, not many. I think I had a
privileged experience being the last date.
There was a lot more work to do around the house. We've been to laundry
and cooking canning. Yes. Yes, I did help some with those kinds of things
, but not only in great detail. and my two brothers who won was I think
five years older than I and the other was eight years older. So they did
most of the other, any heavy work that needed to be done to help the
family? Your sister, that was a nurse? How much older was she? She's about
nine years older than I.
So she was sort of an example for you. Yes, she was in fact all of my
brothers and sisters right an example for me and they were very very good
to me
growing up. Did you plan to go to college then? Uh Yes, I I think uh I did
because I went to college immediately after graduating from high school
and I thought about going to college elsewhere after I finished two years
at that junior college, so to speak. But then I decided to go into nursing.
And and so I've reviewed several places to go and decided to go. Two
jewish hospital in ST louis, which is where my sister had gone. What did
you like about that? And why did you choose it? Uh Well I liked it because
I knew something about it for sure. Uh for one thing and it was I had a
good reputation and uh it was near what was in Barnes hospital and in ST
louis and some of the classes were shared with that school. And that
school was associated with the university there affected jewish hospital.
Yes, in the hospital I went to was your family jewish? Yeah, so it was a
good experience for me to be with another group of people whose habits and
beliefs were different too. It was interesting. What year was that when
you started? Um I guess it was 41. I graduated from there in 1944.
So that was the time that World War two. Yes, it certainly was. So
unfortunately I didn't get to go home very often because the busses and
trains, we're all loaded with army personnel actually. And not only did we
not have released time that much except in the summer. We had a couple of
weeks but it would take too long for me to get there even if I had been
able to get transportation except that christmas time and run week during
the summer.
So you you pretty much stayed there in ST louis. Did you know people there
? No, but I had some relatives who lived across the river in in Elroy and
was in contact with them part of the time. They were very gracious hosts
for me when I had a day or so off. Is there any other ways that the war
impacted your life? Well, yes, we were all afraid because ST louis I think
at that time was in fact I know at that time was lights out at a certain
time except in the hospital which was right across from the nursing home,
the the nurses residents I should say. And uh we had to cover our windows
very carefully at night
because of the fear of mom and me. I guess we never had very much
information about it. But we all certainly covered our windows of our our
rooms. Kind of a frightening way to live. Yes. But it's amazing want girls
to accept it and not think much about it. I wouldn't have thought of that
of ST louis because it's in the middle of the country of California. Heard
about California being concerned,
louis was just as worried. Yes, it was as a as a city.
And did you ever consider joining the military? Yes, I did. And uh I had
graduated from the school at that time and was a head nurse on the men's
ward. And I think that probably was unusual for an immediate graduate to
have a job of that responsibility. But I did and it was, it was very
helpful to me. It was interesting. Um but at about the time when there
were several of us who had an apartment together for us actually and we
all decided at the same time to join the army or one person wanted to be
in the navy and I was an army recruit. And about that time I developed a
heavy and really a massive sickness I guess I had was a high temperature
and
uh gee I guess they didn't ever diagnose it, but I was in the hospital for
a couple of weeks at the time when I was being called into duty and I
couldn't go. So they revoked my orders. So I was and I wasn't and he
placed near the recruitment office after that. And what year was that? It
must have been 45. The war ended shortly. Yes.
You mentioned you were the head nurse on the men's ward. We don't hear
about the men's ward. No, but that it was structured that way in this
hospital. The women's ward was at one end of the hall with beds lined up
throughout the a rather large room and the men's ward was at the other end
of the hall. And we had a lot of recruits from South America people who
had left Germany and came up to relatives in ST louis through uh South
America. So we had we had our taste of from people who came through And
came to the hospital for one element or another. These were jewish people.
Yes. Yes.
Did you see any veterans coming back? No, not many. They weren't yet
released. Probably the military when I was there. Yes.
Um
So after your illness, what did you do? You got better obviously. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Quickly to know. Not quickly. I went back to to where my
parents were and in Oklahoma and stayed there for a while and worked at
one of the local hospitals and then I had by that time I had two sisters
who were living in Arizona and and one of them came through and said, why
don't you come to Arizona with us because she was twisting her vacation
and I decided to do that. And that was my first trip into Arizona. What
year was that? I guess there's still 45. So you came out basically as a
tourist or I'm here to live well, she lived in Tucson at that time and I
came and decided to stay a while and, and worked at the county hospital in
Tucson for a while. What was that like back then? What was to sunlight? It
was a small town. It really was. I could get to my sister's house by
stepping outside and taking the bus to the part of town where she lived
and it went through the center of town. So I was able to get out and shop
and do other things that I'd like to do. What was your first impression
when you came to Tucson? It must have been quite different from Oklahoma.
Well it was different from Oklahoma. Uh, but it was, it was nice. I liked
it. I liked the heat strangely
and uh the people were nice and I made some nice friends and it was nice
having my sister there because I could go on days off and spend my time
with them. It was an uneventful small town I think. So did you come,
they're planning to stay or well, I came primarily to just look around
because I was interested, but I and I did not say I went back to Missouri
for a while
and back to ST louis as I recall. Why did you do that? Um
I think I think I didn't find Tucson that interesting to stay but I like
the weather and so I went back to and worked in ST louis for a while again.
Where did you work this time? At the same place
at jewish hospital? Well then what brought you to the phoenix area? Well I
am I did take some classes at ST louis university and
came to say came to phoenix, the phoenix area did you say? And well I had
another sister who lived here then in fact she had uh the only drug store
in Tempe which was called the Tempe drug at that time. And I visited with
her and began working at the indian service hospital which was over in
phoenix. And then after that I worked at a hospital in south phoenix which
was, I can't remember the name of the hospital at the time but it was run
by an ex Jesuit priest and for the population in that area which was a
lower class population who needed care and help. And I found santa Monica
, that's right and it was very interesting to me, what was it called Santa
Monica's hospital? Thanks.
Somebody else knows about it. I lived in the neighborhood, I lived about
four blocks away. Well I lived down there too and I was working down there.
Tell her what that was like, that neighborhood right there. That's an
interesting neighborhood. Well it is interesting and it was uh partly
mexican I think as I recall and some other families and some negroes but
mostly uh there was mexican population and when people couldn't go to
other hospitals, I think they came there and it was it wasn't a busy
hospital and
that's about all I can remember about it. Did you need to learn spanish?
You know, I didn't, although I picked up some
and later in uh in fatigues, I worked for the visiting nurse service and
when they had one here and that was for many years, it was very much used.
And that was an interesting experience also. And I also took courses
while I was ah involved in working to. That sounds like as a nurse. You
never had problems getting a job when you decided. No. That's right. There
were always jobs
at least the jobs that I was interested in. But why did you decide to work
for the visiting nurse service?
Because I thought it would be interesting and it was helpful to people who
needed uh who needed help from our care from nurses who usually the
doctors referred someone. But there were also there was also another
population if people would refer to as some uh family to visiting your
service, we always went out and and did an assessment of the situation and
made recommendations and help for them. Mm. Yeah, describe for me a little
bit how the visiting nurse service worked Well uh
calls uh when people were discharged from the hospital or if they weren't
sick enough to go to the hospital are many of them had diabetes and needed
instruction on how to help themselves and take care of their as the
disease at the same time. And so the doctor should call the visiting your
service and the director would assign nurses to that family. And also we
had students from, from good samaritan hospital which is now Banner
hospital in phoenix. And I happen to be an instructor for the students at
that time. So I accompanied them also into visits and show them the
routine for the activities of the visiting nurse. Well who operated the
visiting nurse service. How is it funded? It was funded through
several sources but it was partly through what was in the community
service agency. And uh also fees were collected when it could, people
could pay if not they were uh, the money was obtained from the victim
unity source. So it was sort of a nonprofit operation definitely
definitely. When did they start having their ebook sales? It was during
the time I was there and the director when I was there was mrs done, she
and her husband had been a in fact she and her husband both had worked in
parker when the japanese people were all sent to parker Arizona and she
had some interesting ideas and the very community wide approach towards
visiting nurses association and what we did. It's very interesting.
So was it her idea to have a book sale? I think it was, do you remember
the first sale? How did that work out? I don't remember it, but I I know
it was very successful for many years and still is, that's what I remember
that later, but I always wondered how it got started. She, well the
women's group in phoenix also supported the agency and we're very active
in taking students to their assigned
patients to care for. They drove the students, which is a nice thing too
because the students didn't have cars in those days. What women's group
was that the phoenix women's society
and so did they start the book sale they with in cooperation with the
senior service
because I know it's a huge event now. It really is huge, but it wasn't to
begin with. It was I think they were able to use some of the county
facilities to hold the book sale though. And it was successful.
Do you know how much money they raised with that too many years ship God,
I had forgotten. Mhm. You know, they raised a lot of money but the books
are bargained still, they still are, it's a nice community activity too.
So you sound like you were doing a lot of things. You were you said you
were teaching at the good samaritan. No I didn't teach at good samaritan.
I um had we had their students there for uh you were working for practice
, you know I was working at the for the visiting nurse service but I
supervise students in their visits to patients in their homes And showed
them the role of what the 15 nurse does.
You mentioned you were also taking some classes. Yes. Where were you
taking classes? I took classes at phoenix uh community college and I don't
know what it was called then phoenix something but and also I took a class
or two in the summertime at A. S. U.
And yes you had a college of nursing and no they did not. Unfortunately
they had well I was trying to fill in some of my other classes which I
needed in order to, I was working towards my bachelor's degree in nursing.
And so eventually uh from the visiting your service and and the indian
service experience here. I went back again to ST louis and got my
bachelor's degree at Saint Louis University.
So you hadn't actually gotten that degree when you were there. No. So when
did you get that degree? I think it was 54. So did you become a registered
nurse before that? Yes one becomes a registered nurse in those days uh by
simply finishing their diploma degree in nursing and usually it was
associated with the hospital.
So you had you were a registered nurse but you didn't have the bachelor's
degree, so what was the benefit of getting the bachelors? Well benefit for
me was I was interested in learning more things. Uh huh in general and
also in nursing, but there was no nursing school per se except to the
hospitals uh in phoenix at that time, there was no degree program, There
was a two diploma programs As I recall one. Uh huh
Barnes or saint joseph and saint joseph, not Barnes, one at
what is now banner, but it was good samaritan and And one at ST. Joseph
Hospital. So explain again what is the diploma program? Well it usually is
a 3-year program in nursing and uh after which you get when you complete
all the requirements you get your diploma says this is a registered nurse
, but we also have to be a registered nurse, mistake a state exam. And if
she passed that in addition to having here your diploma from the hospital
, you can you are a registered nurse, but first you need the diploma. Yes.
So what today is you offer at that time some science courses
and of course the other courses which were pertinent to becoming a
bachelor's degree recipient.
So
I was trying to fulfill some of those requirements before I went back to
ST Louis University and there was a nursing program there of course at
that time it was still Arizona State Teachers College, wasn't it? No, it
was Arizona State University I think in the university 58 58. Well I
missed a few years I guess. Yeah, it was it was not it was the actual
state college.
So did you have some goals of what you wanted to do with, you got your
bachelor's degree then? No, I wanted to continue to do nursing, which I
did.
And then uh because the university nurse had rather brad broad scope uh in
caring for people, um I was interested in public health. And uh so I went
back to Minnesota after some experience here again and I did my masters
degree in a master of public health with a minor also in the psychiatric
nursing.
So when you did that, were you still working as a nurse while you went to
school or did you just go to school? I had I had some scholarships and I
did work a little, but not much, I mean I worked a lot, but that was for
force by schooling
but not for for my uh living, I was very well taken care of with the with
the
the scholarship which I had received, who gave you the scholarship, I
think it was the american nurses association at that point.
So you've got your master's degree then, what were your plans to, what do
you want to do with that? Well to get a job in public health because I was
interested in public health. And uh well I forgot to mention that my
experience in working with the indian hospital also sort of gave me an
impetus to to learn more about different cultures and uh the people who
needed help and care and instruction about their health and that's the
kind of job I was looking for. However Loretta uh
Bard Wick at that time I was just trying to start a school here at A. S. U.
She was had been appointed as a dean too to develop a school of nursing.
Yeah sure. And within the combined today issue and she had
acquired one employee and needed another. And so she very nicely offered
me a a job to help develop the programs you see. When was that? I think it
was 57 when I came here. How did you get to know her? Well when I was
working with the visiting nurse service she was also uh the director of
nursing at Banner Hospital at Good Samaritan Hospital. And she I was
familiar with her for meetings, nursing meetings and also from working
with her in the assignment of the students from Good samaritan hospital to
the visiting nurse service. Yeah. Experience.
So she hired you then in 1957. And was that a full time job to develop the
program in nursing at issue. So what did that involve? How did you do that
? Not easily? Um
Well there we were placed as you can imagine A very delightful place in
Matthew's basement.
It was it was there were three or 4 pretty good sized rooms there at that
time. And uh so the other person in Loretta and I um we're working as they
had been here six months before I got here. So I got here at mid semester
or second semester. And uh we they had been doing other things and setting
the groundwork for the program. And we tried to we did sit down and plan
the curriculum as it should be for nurses who are going to have a
bachelor's degree. And it included uh
general uh work. And as any other student would have coming together a
bachelor's degree in addition to nursing courses.
Mm hmm. And so we we planned it. That's some other other faculty then came
in uh the next year. And
for the following years. So the program was at accepting students to do
their basic requirements and then would later move into nursing
requirements. So what was your first title within at a. S. U. What was the
job called? It was called an associate professor and how it became an
associate professor at that level. I can't really remember because I was
in no way
at the level to be an associate professor in today's terms. But you got a
master's degree. I had a master's degree and you've been doing a lot of
work in there saying yes, I had you had some qualifications. Well I did
have some. What was the salary? I don't know. I can't remember. It was
enough to get by, but it wasn't in the minions
if any ever is. And do you remember if it was more or less than you would
have made as a nurse? I think it was about the same
because nurses then we're not as as sparse as they are now. Although the
the community didn't need a college of nursing very badly. I think why was
that? Well, because you're limited when you have only a diploma, you you
don't have the all of the sciences that you might have, nor the other uh
courses which provide a well rounded approach to life, I think.
So what did it take to you really got in on the ground floor to start the
College of Nursing then? What were some of the things that you considered
when you thought about what you wanted that college to be? Well, we wanted
them to have a good general
appreciation of the arts and the sciences. In fact it was essential. And
also to bring in community needs and uh public health problems which
existed in the community as well as the nursing care per se, just a broad
approach to knowledge. And
then the
emphasis on the nursing, our nursing as it is dealt with in that community.
So when did you actually start accepting students and having teaching
classes for them? Well
actually
I think it was that next fall from the came in january of of that year and
I think it was the next fall we had students.
And were you teaching at that time? We were teaching the beginning courses
in nursing along with some of them had been in in the liberal arts college
and transferred over to nursing. But
I think that most of them had some courses before they started and
transferred into nursing. But some did not. So they started at the
beginning and and took some courses introductory courses to nursing. Do
you remember how many students you had the first, you know, I can't
remember I was trying to remember that the other day and and it was I
think they were run between 22 40 students in rule but not all of them
stayed.
Did some of them come from the community colleges to or I think most of
them did not. A lot of them came from other places in Arizona and they
were enrolled in the general liberal arts degree. Did the University of
Arizona have, they started running about the same time because that's
where the medical schools.
That's correct. So what you were teaching then when they started, when you
started classes, what did you teach? Well there were some nurses with
diplomas who in fact there were a lot of them who were then wanted to get
their bachelor of Science degree and uh,
in the community and there were some courses that we taught advanced
courses in nursing, which, and particularly again in public health because
that's not one area that's dealt with at all in the, in the deployment
programs.
Usually.
Did you yourself teach some of those courses?
I don't, I can't remember exactly which ones. I thought right now
we, we taught what we were more competent and, and had more experience.
And The, because by that next 12 we had Probably three or 4 more
instructors and each was refining their area for teaching. What area was
your, especially public health and, and maternal child.
You didn't use your site.
I did, yes. But that was a little bit later and I did use my psychic
experience. It was very helpful to, um, now you say your offices were in
the basement of Matthews Hall. Um, where were your classes held there? Our
officers were like here. And the classes were like there. Mm hmm. Not much
space there. No, there wasn't a lot. But it was enough. Um, when you
started off, did you have goals to have another building or to move out
there? Well, we did get, yes, we had hopes of moving out of there. Uh, and
we did find me, I think it was the next year that we were given a building
on Forest Street and it was happens to be worthy.
The TV station is now Channel eight is located. And it was a nice little
house. Unfortunately for me, the director of the school decided to go on a
trip with her husband, had been planning it for years to Sweden and so
somebody had to decide stay in and work at the college during the summer
and decide how the building on forests should be redesigned internally too.
Hold off of the new faculty we were getting, I happened to be lucky
enough to to stay into that that year. And you said it was that loved
house, It was a house, an old house just remodeling the old. Yes, we they
took down practically all of the rooms and and restructure the rooms for
offices and so forth. But I guess that was, that was not our beginning,
that was later towards the, the time when I was getting ready to leave and
go to for my doctoral degree in 62. So we were in Matthews Hall for some
time. What what was a issue like those during those years, it was kind of
a nice quiet campus and you could even find space to walk on the sidewalk.
Mhm. Which some days it's hard to find. Uh the last time I was here
trying to place to park. Yeah, that replaces the park even was there were
still streets going through campus. There were streets going through
campus. Yeah. And the new building which is now not the building anymore
than nursing building anymore. Um was on the corner of uh
what was across the street from where the churches
and
and it still is there of course the building.
Oh, those first few years must have been kind of exciting and challenging
to school from scratch. Yeah, it was very interesting. It was it was good
. I must say we had a lot of help from what was called Witchy then. I
don't know if you're familiar with that organization. It's a regional
organization, the Western, uh
I can't remember the the whole title of it, but it was a Western society
for ah higher education in the West and all the colleges and universities
were invited to attend and be a member of that group. So it really made an
impetus for increasing higher education in all the Western states and it's
still going, it was out of Denver. I think the officers are still there
and our dean was very active in that organization. Which was helpful
because she got to know other deans in the western area. And the college
was helped I think by the knowledge from those schools and some of it was
transferred into our curriculum, I'm sure.
So,
Well, you mentioned that you started here in 57 at issue and then you say
you left to go get your doctoral degree. Yes. Um in, well, in 62, why did
you decide to do that? Well, I decided that I didn't know enough to to be
teaching at the university without having more education. And I was very
interested in a program called Human development which was offered through
social sciences at the University of Chicago. So I applied to another
scholarship and received it and the way I went. And how long were you gone
? five years. So and I did not initially intend to return especially here
, but Loretta was still deemed at the college at that time and she decided
that I should be here. So eventually I agreed to and it was a very nice
experience. What did you think you wanted to do um to teach nursing and to
incorporate the information and knowledge that I had obtained about how
human how people develop over the age span.
And I think that it's very helpful if nurses have a good understanding of
what happens at different stages in life. But if you were in a way to
Chicago for five years, you must have had a lot of other opportunities
during that time. Yes, I did. And did I worked as a research associate
part of the time. Uh That was during my last couple of years and that was
helpful for me to
because of the program, there was highly
emphasized
research
as well as application of that research. Well, what was it that yes, you
could offer you to convince you to come back here. Well, um Loretta was
very interested in. The total faculty were interested in uh starting a
master's program. And so I was really hired to plan and get that program
on on its way in nursing which I did. And I'm glad I did because it was
very interesting time for me. And it was helpful to the community.
Why did they want a master's program?
Because nurses need to know more.
So they need to know more of some of the stuff which I was just talking
about some of the material in relation to development. And and the various
programs are needed because of specialization and medicine. And nursing uh
needs to be able to know how to take care of people who are uh either
needing help for medical surgical problems or childbearing problems or
psychiatric problems and so forth. So we had programs in those areas,
programs for ministers degree
had issue with the College of Nursing changed a lot over those five years.
Not much the same program. The same uh curriculum was still in effect for
the most part. And the thing was that more and more people wanted their
master's degree because they needed it in order to care for certain groups
of people in the community and public health was another one which was
very important. The school has gotten a lot bigger. Yes, it had, it had
grown and and had a new building the corner as I said across the street
from the church on and right on on the edge of the property. It's one of
the first buildings one comes into. Mm hmm. However, that is not a nursing
building anymore. I understand. But it became, it was built as a nursing
building
on university and university and whatever street that is. Yes, maybe just
college and that was built to be a college of nursing and you know what
year that was built? I think 65, it was finished. That was during the time
you were gone, I was gone. So that looks like it would have looked a lot
different than when you came back from the time when you left. Yeah. Yes,
indeed it did. Do you remember how many students there were by then? It
was a full house. I don't know exactly. I can't remember. I noticed on
your vita here, you mentioned something about the Peace Corps. You haven't
mentioned that. Oh well it wasn't really, I wasn't a member of the Peace
Corps. I was an employee of the Peace Corps per se. Um that was the summer
before I went to Chicago. And they are a group of people were going to
Bolivia and so they had their training through the university on the
indian reservation west of town. I think it was pema indians. And uh so I
was in charge of the female proportion of the training group. What kind of
training did you give them? You know, they visited families, they saw the
kind of living conditions they had and tried to plan to implement,
implement plans to help them in their, in their development as people and
as a tribe? And we had an old school building out on the reservation um as
far west and I can't remember uh the name of that area, but it was
very far west and south and which is now incorporated into phoenix I'm
sure. But then it was just a reservation with Levine. Levine, it was just
beyond Levine. Yeah, thank you for that information. And uh we went out
every day and spent, I spent half a day there and then they did their
other work in the afternoon visiting families and things like that. How
did you get involved in that? I don't know, I
don't know but but I was and the agricultural department was involved also
because they were helping with teaching them uh huh better farming methods
and many of them are still living in in their mud huts at that time on
that reservation and some of them were drinking the water from the and
canals that were there and uh as such, they had gotten some diseases which
they didn't need to have if they had had to clean water. So those kinds of
things came to the major areas that the Peace Corps was working with and
I'm sure they followed through on much of that stuff when they went to in
south America? How long would they come here for their training? It was
all summer.
So did you ever do anything more with the Peace Corps? Did you ever go
overseas?
I was just an employee.
It sounds like an interesting job. Well it was interesting. It was it was
really very nice and you could do that during the summer because the
college wasn't busy. Yes we weren't offering courses uh and nursing and
but I did I was at the college in the afternoons for the most part and did
interviews with students who were interested in coming to the program and
setting up experiences for the fall for the students that were already in
the program.
So when you came back in 19, what was that, what year did you come back? I
think it was 67.
And what what kind of work were you doing? You said you started the
masters, Yes we started planning for the master's program then what did
that entail defining the courses ah excluding the areas that were not
ready at that time to be offered but still planning them and yeah some of
the other faculty
came, We're working also, some new faculty came at that time. And uh we
planned again for the courses and when and how and who would offer them
when it would be offered, how it would be developed and so forth. And how
big was the school of nursing at that time? Was it a school of nursing
college? It was college at that time? And uh I don't know, it was a we had
a full class schedule. I know that and I I don't have the numbers exactly
, but it was a full school.
Who was the dean? The dean was Loretta Hannah was barred. Wick was still
the dean at that time and who was the president of the university at that
time? You know? I can't remember. I know the greater damage was still here
when I first came. Uh But I cannot remember who was president at that time.
Did you get to know Grady? Gammage. No,
no I didn't. I knew his wife uh but I didn't know him and he died sometime
after I was employed here and not too long after that. Yeah. So you didn't
really have much association with the president of the university? I
didn't until I started working on the graduate programs and then I had
more contact with the graduate college. And when was that? Um When I first
came back from Chicago,
were you still teaching also? I didn't teach the first semester, but I did
after that. And what courses did you teach? I taught human development and
community health and the human development component was beginning with
early childhood through adulthood and aging.
What did community health entail? Um learning about the community and the
health problems in the community and uh some home visits to determine what
it was characteristic of different parts of the community. So was it
tailored specifically to this community here? Yes it was. I mean not for
you mean Tempe, what community was it tailored? Well the the whole fix in
various areas.
Did you continue to work with some of the native american community? Yes
some of the students did and some of the faculty did
fortunately. And and at that time we had no program specifically for the
indian population but we did have indian students and they were just
marvelous to work with too because they wanted so much to to learn more
about the total community. How many indian students roughly did you
usually have? I think there were usually three or 4 in most of the classes.
They were learning nursing skills where they planned to go back to their
local community? Some did. Yes some did and some uh continued and got
their master's degree and then they became real a real benefit to their
communities that they went back to. We had some Navajo students. We had
various students in that category.
It was nice to be see them here. Did you actually go out and recruit
native americans to come to school here? No we didn't. I don't think we
did that. I don't recall it if we did. But they were certainly welcome.
You said you hadn't planned to come back to A. S. U. Not necessarily. So
when you came back were you planning to stay there very long. Yes I am. I
did and I am, I can see that, but if some people say they only came plan
to come for a couple of years and they're still here. So I wondered if you
really were gonna come back and stay or? No, I I didn't plan to leave
necessarily. Mhm. Oh, mm hmm. Is your family still here? Yes. Part of this
evening,
Yeah. Mhm. So what were your career goals then at that time? Um
my career goals were to do what I could for the College of Nursing and
with the College of nursing and I was very interested in the program and I
was delighted to be part of it and I was also pleased to have the
opportunity to end my position and also in the courses I taught to start a
nursing clinic for nurse practitioners which in the early 70s was just
beginning beginning to be talked about and there were very few nurse
practitioners in the country at that time. So we started a program in
nurse practitioner training and education and also started a clinic in
Scottsdale which was used by the community and is still in operation. And
now the there's also a new clinic and the new college building in phoenix
which will be a service to the community while giving the students
experience in being nurse practitioners.
Okay, Alright, alright, this is tape to with ellie brands center.
Um you started to tell us about the clinic that you started in Scottsdale
, tell us a little more about that. How what was it like? Where was it?
Well, we um we, the country was just beginning and particularly the
division of nursing in Washington was just beginning to recognize the fact
that nurses who are prepared appropriately and that's what the masters
degree at least and some preparation and uh
in home care and in patient care per se uh would really be a benefit to
the total country. And so there was there were several movements through
witchy, the organization which I mentioned before and also through the
national organizations that we began to to educate nurses to be nurse
practitioners. That is to do the fundamental assessments and treatments
that nurses I couldn't do and can do. And we're already doing informally.
And so we became interested in developing a program like that. But for the
most part, the thing that was happening was for nurses indicated
interested students in that they were placed with physicians and their
nursing instructor in some office and I felt and others in the faculty
felt that nurses should be on their own and have the education and which
would prepare them for taking care of people at the level which they were
prepared to do, which was not to do doctoral, doctor type interventions,
but nursing interventions. How do you distinguish what's the difference
between a doctor? Well the nurse can do a lot of assessments and uh tens
of diagnoses and treat mental conditions
and do that sometimes
very completely. I mean usually very completely. And uh then as the
patient needs to see the physician or if the program is not adequate uh
for what their problem is then they see the doctor. But it's sort of like
a screening but it's a complete screening
of what their illness or complaint is. And so tell me about the clinic
that you started. Where was it at? It was located in the El camino area in
in Scottsdale. And fortunately we were able to, they had, I didn't know it
at the time but they had a room especially designed in their community
building for that area for a clinic only they didn't know they thought it
would be men by doctors or they didn't know for sure what they were going
to do with it. So, uh we further explored that and found that it was, it
would be a nice spot for us to have our training uh area and in the
community for the students who are interested in becoming a nurse
practitioners. So with some work with the community and the mm hmm.
Indians, a lot of indians lived in that area and we're not eligible for
care
to the county or through any organization at that time. They later became
accepted as a tribe and we now are able to receive there uh care through
the indian service.
The Yaqui indians. And so we had an agreement with the city or development
agreement with the city to have that space and received some money from
the state, from the medical program which was, I can't remember what the
name of that program was. But it was a a federal program uh developed to
go into communities and sort of define what their problems their health
problems were. But that was closing down. And so we got some of their
equipment Fortunately to the tune of about $3,000. I think it was worth
that much when you got it. And then some physicians gave us some some exam
tables. A couple of physicians that I happen to know gave us we're going
out of practice and give us some equipment and so we worked with the
community and with the city per se and opened our own little clinic with
the county hospital or county health department also assisted with that.
Yeah. So what was really the purpose of having a clinic there having
students be able to practice their under the supervision of faculty. Uh
And we had a physician consultant to begin with. So I guess your college
of nursing at A. S. U. Didn't really have a medical school where they
couldn't practice. So was that somewhat of a challenge for you? Uh Well
yes the whole thing was a challenge but the community was pleased and uh
finally I was able to get a grant written midst all of the things that
were happening and we received almost $3 million dollars for the
development of the clinic and the education of students through that
practice.
So when did that clinic open? Uh, again years uh,
In 77 I think. Mm hmm. And our 75, no, we wrote, we finished writing it in
75. They could not fund it then because of the office was moving the
division of nursing in Washington. and so in 77 we were awarded the money
and we're able to really, while we started before we had that the money on
a very limited basis. We uh, It wasn't until 1977 when you really opened
the doors for For 3, 5 days a week, uh, seeing patients.
And what was your role with the clinic? Did you actually spend your time
there? I was director of the project which, which
provided the care there. So, and I had written the grant and, and um
faculty and I had developed the extent of what we should do and what we
shouldn't do. And so I was simply the director of the project. So did you
work out of that? I did work out of their uh, in part simply facilitating
what was happening there. I spent a lot of time going back and forth
between a issue and the Scottsdale. Yes,
that is very interesting And the people were so receptive and the students
, uh, we're so glad to be able to practice on their own with, with the
faculty there. And uh, it was very interesting. The community really loved
it because they had no other source of care at that point,
but anybody was welcome to come into the clinic at first we charged on a
sliding fee scale And I think by the end of the total grant, we had
something like 66 or $600 rather out of uh collection of fees. So that
aspect had to be changed because the community uh was changing then also
and some people had money and could pay for their care and we received
some help from outside uh Saint Saint joseph or not ST joseph, but ST
luke's hospital as a program which they paid for some patients who could
not pay.
Mhm. What are other, other students that didn't work at the clinic where
did the students from me as you get their practical experience in various
parts in the master's program or in all in general, in various hospitals
throughout the community and various health and also the county health
department in various sites. So they had to do a lot of traveling.
Was that a hardship for some students? It was hardship for some, but most
of them were able to have cars, particularly the master students because
they were more mature students usually already graduate with a bachelor's
degree and some of them were mothers, a lot of Children and knowledgeable
about Children too. So were most of the students at the college of nursing
than students that came into the program right from high school or did
they come later in life? Uh They both both, many of them came right into
the program and did the bachelor's program first and then moved directly
into the Master's program. Others had been practicing for a while and I
think this is still true and and decided to continue their uh nationals
degree
or the students primarily women or did you get some men that we had a few
men? Not many to begin with. I think there are more now and I don't know
numbers, but I know that there are more male students in the program now
than than we had at the beginning
and there are definitely more indian students because there's an indian
education program and in effect. And one of our previous students who was
director of nursing at the
hospital, not at the hospital at the university Study University, the
college in in uh. Mhm. Nasa now is in charge of that indian education
program? And she still is in the same building that over on university
with her little student group. Mhm. Oh is there any special events from
your career here at issue that stands out in your mind. Thank you. No, I
guess all of them were exciting for me enjoyed enjoying it and I suppose
the development of the master's program and the development of the clinic
was two things that that I'm particularly still interested in.
I noticed on your vita that you mentioned that you were the assistant dean
a couple of times. How did that come about? Uh I guess it came about
because the dean needed somebody to help and uh I happened to be there. I
was aware of most of the programs that were going on within the college
and
he was simply there. Um What you meant Loretta was the dean when she hired
you. What other other deans have you had? Um We had after Loretta left we
had another dean,
we had um
one of the Dean's was
the recent one before. Our current dean is
gosh I can't remember her name now. She was with us about five years and I
was out of the program for most of those years after I retired. I did go
back to help part time and with the master's programs but uh it turned out
not to be really part time as those jobs sellers do. So I can't remember.
But and then we had you know, I can't remember those scenes scenes. I'm
sorry they weren't just memorable. No. No. Well Janelle Krueger was the
next one I think and she was she was very nice.
Did you work pretty closely with the dean's? Yes, because I was in charge
of the master's programs in general and I did work very closely with them.
What is it about the College of nursing that you that you think makes it a
special program?
Well I think it's a special program because it's providing an education
for for
students who are really interested in working with the community and with
people who need a nursing care and healthcare in general health
instruction. So I think it's valuable
program which is used by all society because if one is ill, you certainly
would like to have a nurse who is and a doctor also and other people who
are qualified and competent
I think and I think their work with the community is very important. Mhm.
Does that make a s you different than other colleges of nursing?
Uh No, I don't think so, it depends on the focus of the different colleges
, but I think the purpose is generally the same.
Mhm. It looks like you've seen the college change obviously from the
beginning um you know, when did you move part of the college up to the
community services building where we are today, That happened after I left
? Uh I think they had one office or two offices over here during that last
year I was here, but they just simply simply ran out of space.
What do you think about the move that they're they're working on now to
move the whole college downtown? I think it's already there and that I
hope it works. Um I think that it will be a while before the the whole
building is utilized as they hope because it is a change and but maybe it
will draw more students from the phoenix area.
Mm hmm. It looks it's a beautiful building. It's certainly much different
from having it on the college campus here. Well, yes. And I have a
personal preference. I would like to see the nursing students being able
to intermingle satisfactorily satisfactorily with the rest of the students
in the university because I think it broadens their viewpoint in their
whole aspect of of what education is about.
Did did you have while you were here a campus on the west side? Did you?
They started a campus on the west side. Yes. While I was still here and
that was very successful and is still very successful. It's growing a lot.
And it had its own school of nursing. It was it was this called the
College of Nursing A. S. U. West. So they taught most of the courses on
the upper level, the for the students. So they had student practice there
and in that general area and there's some very good hospitals there in
that area to which allow the students to get the kind of practice they
need there. And so of course the health department is everywhere in the
county. Well we're here today about there being such a shortage of nurses.
It's true. How do you feel about that? I think that it would be nice if
there weren't nurses. Uh But what do you mean? Why do you think there is a
shortage of nurses? People are becoming more aware of their health needs.
I think for one thing and hospitals are growing and and people are getting
older and the older population, do you need more
attention to their health? I think that's not for all of the population.
But that's true generally and
there just aren't enough people who are interested in going into nursing
or was a few years back and now that it's a popular thing to do. The
schools are all receiving more applications than they can take care of. So
do you think that schools need to to expand and be able to I think they'll
have to or there will be more shortages. You were at the college during
the time in the late 70s when women more women started becoming doctors
instead of nurses. Did you see a change then when women were more able to
become doctors of? Yes, I think that's true, that didn't happen and and
still is happening and that's fine. Uh You know, I think it's good that we
have our own doctors and even Hilary is running for president.
So they're women are getting more and more into every occupation. Do you
think women make better doctors than men sometimes or? Well there are male
doctors that are fine and they're female doctors that are fine. But I
don't know do you think that hurt the nursing profession when women
started becoming doctors? That it was kind of like maybe maybe that's part
of the problem,
but I think that many other occupations became available to women and they
broaden their perspective of what they might be able to do. So there were
more women in various areas and then there were,
when you became a nurse, there weren't that many options. I know you
probably were actually, I wanted to be an aviator. I thought it would be
wonderful to fly an airplane and my mother said no, so that's settled that.
But uh and I thought about becoming a teacher, but I really wanted to be
a nurse, but those were the two professions that were acceptable,
generally speaking teaching and and uh at least where I lived, there were
not any other avenues for women very much. They were secretaries and they
were teachers or are even nursing was limited in those days.
So how do you feel about all the changes that you've seen? Well, I think
change is wonderful if it's if it's good change and uh otherwise I I feel
all of society is constantly trying to adjust all the changes we have.
Don't you think, Okay,
did you ever think that you'd see a s you grow to become as big as it is?
Well, I didn't think about it, but it certainly is has grown, hasn't it?
And the programs are really very well thought through. I think it's a
great university.
Can you sort of just describe the changes that you've seen that just at
the College of nursing?
Well it's it's grown larger certainly and otherwise I think the basics are
the same. Only there are different approaches to educating the students in
in different areas and I think that's fine too. What kind of different
approaches? Well
it used to be that there had to be a a faculty immediately with a student
all the time or merely all the time. But now the students are given
directions and given an introduction to an area and are more on their own
and then they report back to their instructor and that's fine. As long as
the students have adequate preparation
as the whole field of nursing, it seems like become more complicated as
medicine has become more sophisticated.
I think the basics in nursing remained the same. Um The nurse is able to
understand and do more now than they were earlier days and it was more
sort of in the early days more folk medicine because they didn't know more
and the doctors didn't know more either, what are the basics of nursing
competency and understanding health and illness and what kinds of things
promote health versus uh the things that promote illness and being able to
be knowledgeable about the new developments in medicine and in nursing to
take care of the patient and two be available at the level that the
patient needs to be helped.
What's the best memory that you have of A. S. U.
They were all very pleasant memories. I really don't have any complaints.
So I don't have any worst memories issue. Well it was it was a wonderful
place to work for me. I liked it and I liked the people I worked with and
the the people that I didn't work with too much. For instance I think that
the people in the graduate college were so helpful when we were developing
that masters program. They were just wonderful. And uh so it was helpful
to the whole college and therefore to the whole community.
Are there any particular students that stand out in your mind? Oh yes.
Many of them. Well we've we've had some wonderful indian students who I
was so pleased that that they were able to be in and do the master's
program and then become leaders themselves in their own areas and that I'm
particularly impressed by then. We didn't have very many black students
and I'm sorry about that. I don't know why I guess the recruitment it
wasn't geared towards towards the black student. I don't know we had some
which was good and we had students from different countries and that was
an exciting, exciting thing for the whole college because we learned from
them and they learned from us? Why would they come from other countries?
Because they hear about the program?
Do they come to become nurses here or to go home and to go home mainly
about the mexican american nurses. And we've had plenty of those and
they've all been wonderful. They've gone back to their communities or
stayed in the community there in and or just sought new jobs depending
upon their preference for and their reason for being here in the first
place.
How would you like to be remembered by the people of the College of
nursing?
Um
Well if anybody chooses to remember me, I would like them to think of me
as as someone who was a friend of theirs.
I suppose. I have had a couple of people who didn't like me very well but
I don't know, I mean everybody does if you're in a position of
responsibility but
they could think of me as they wish. No. Is there anything that that you
accomplished something You did a lot of things over the years? So that
your proudest?
I think probably getting the program going in the first place when I first
came back to the issue and I think that was really, we really worked on on
that the those few of us who were here and also the establishment of the
Master's Program which was a hard thing to do. Initially we had to put a
lot of work in on that and then the clinic,
the development of the clinic and the whole concept of having the student
be able to become a nurse practitioner.
Was that pretty new when you started? Yes it was
is that different? That's different than a physician's assistant? Yes it
is because they have a broader education than the physician physician's
assistant. They have the whole earlier Masters Bachelor Bachelor of
Science in nursing and the Master's in nursing in addition to the other uh
material that they get as being a nurse practitioner.
Did you ever miss actually doing hands on nursing as you became more
involved in running the college? Uh No because I did occasionally get into
that. Uh I can't say that. I didn't really miss it because I was so
involved with other things which which helped other people to do those
things.
What kind of advice would you give to young people that are starting off
trying to decide what they want to do as a career or what they want to do
with their lives? Well I think that that if they aren't sure they need to
make up their mind if they can and if they can't then most of them do
enroll in college and while they're trying to decide, I mean many of them
do what they really want to do and I think if they really pick something
that they like and they want to do, they should devote their efforts to
finding out what's entailed in that and to make a decision and and go for
it.
I think I've covered most of the questions I had for you. Is there
anything you wanted to tell us that I didn't ask? You know, I think you've
covered everything and more bob. Did you have anything you wanted to ask
you? You mentioned doing quite a bit of research? Yeah.
Some of that research happened in the issue or or if you publish Yes, I
did publish most of the research. I was Oh, okay. Yes. Um um I did was
involved with research at at the University of Chicago and the topic that
I did. My main research in was
the hospitalized child and three I had three groups, 1 who had a sit her
with her or someone who was a mother substitute and the child who had his
mother with with her or him and the child who had nobody there to comfort
in. And I did a comparison of those three groups. And it took me forever
to get it done because I observed in the hospital recorded those
observations and then um Compared to three groups and I found that the
child who did not have anybody with them, of course you might expect was
very sad and lonely child. And the child who had the substitute mother
with her or him. Uh we're as happy and as satisfied as a child who had the
mother with them for a period of they all had to be in the hospital of at
least two weeks. And so uh it's if the mother can't be there, having a
substitute person there is equally as is happy for the child is and the
child is satisfied and does not suffer as much as you might think. But
having no one, they did, they did interesting.
It's an interesting but lengthy study getting the three groups at the same
age as the in a similar hospital and so forth.
Anything else? But did you have anything you wanted to ask? You know? I
think we've covered. Well thank you. Thank you, Grill me some more. I
don't know anything else. It's been very interesting.
Okay.