interview for the A. S. U. Retirees Association Living History video
project and today is thursday november the ninth of 2000 and six and I'm
pam Stephenson doing the interview. Manny Garcia is our videographer and
we're doing the interview here at the visitor information center. But it
is you here at the corner of a railroad and Apache boulevard
yourself and give us your full name. My name is bobby brooks winkles and
I'm from Swift in Arkansas and I came here to A. S. U. In 1958 in
september And I left in January of 1972 and went to the California Angels
. I like to go back and start with a little bit of history about your
early life. Is it bobby Orr is robert? No in Arkansas. When I was born
they didn't know about robert. So the name is bobby B O B B Y.
Was born on March the 11th 1930 in Tuckerman Arkansas that was the town of
approximately 800 people. And when I was nine years old we moved to swift
in Arkansas where I actually was raised and went to high school. I was
raised on a 18 and 80 acre farm about 2.5 miles from Swift Whose
population was 526
And we, there were 10 of us, six Children and my mother and father and my
grandmother and my grandfather, we all lived in a three-bedroom house that
had no electricity and no indoor plumbing. So we didn't exactly come from
the elite. What did your family do for a living. We lived on an 80 acre
farm, we raised hay for the cattle and we raised corn for the Hogs and we
also raised cotton and that was the three staples that we farmed. We did
not own the land, we had furnished the equipment to make the crops and we
got 3/4 of what was sold if a bale bale of cotton sold for apart, we got
3/4 of the money and the owner of the land got 1/4. When I was 12 I
started driving a tractor and uh Uh sitting on a tractor 12 hours a day.
Uh my grandfather was a great farmer, but he didn't like to work and so he
went to town, only had two stores in the town and he'd go there and shoot
the bull with all the old farmers and then he'd come home at night and
tell me it's time to come in. And uh so that's what I did. I missed the
six weeks of school when it was planning time every year because I drove
the tractor and my dad worked on the railroad. So he was not there either
very much. And what about your brother? I'm the oldest and I have a
brother four years younger and when I graduated and went to college he
took over the tractor, but what was that town like swift turn Uh in our
town of 526.
Uh the city limit signs were on the same post and uh when we had a parade
there was no one to watch. So there really wasn't a lot that took place in
that town except saturday night, we got to go to town and go to a movie.
They had a western movie every saturday night and that was our
entertainment. You went to school there. What was school like School was
small. We had 19 in my graduating class. We did not have enough people uh
to put on a football field or a baseball field. So basketball was the only
sport that we had in high school. And were you a good student? I know this
will not believe by my former players that I was the valedictorian of my
class. Yes with 19 people and 12 of them mentally retarded. I had a good
chance
an advantage. What was your favorite subject? My favorite subject was math.
In a school of that, that type of population. All you did was add and
subtract. Multiply and divide. There was no algebra or geometry or
anything boy growing up. What did you want to be when you were growing up
? I always wanted to be in baseball. And the reason being is that my
seventh grade teacher was a gentleman by the name of George kell. George
Kell is now in the baseball hall of fame. He played some 16 to 18 years in
the major leagues and he was my teacher and his father was a barber in
town and he ran a summer team where we got to play on sunday And then
after the crops were laid by which meant we were not gonna plow him
anymore. We played Thursday and Sunday and his his brother, Skeeter Kell
and I when we were 15 we're playing against guys, 30 35 years old because
it was a town team and not a school team. Did you travel around to other
towns? Yes, we had towns like Pocahontas, just little old town's Black
rock and we, I mean they were all little bitty towns but we'd always pay a
picture and uh well the rest of us would just fill in but the farmers
would take up maybe 50 or 100 bucks for some kid that was live somewhere
else in Jackson County which is where I was raised and we all did fart
together 100 bucks and we try to win the game. I played third base because
George kell played third base. You know, I never was that great. I enjoyed
playing. And Skeeter kelly who was George's younger brother, he and I were
the best friends and we got to spend a lot of time together. We played
basketball together.
Well I didn't really know, I just knew that I wanted to, I went to a
yankee tryout camp one time and Pocahontas, Arkansas
And I played pretty good in that. I could always throw decent, they
offered me a contract $3500 out of high school. I was there for a week at
a school that they had in Branson Missouri after seeing me play in
Pocahontas that one day and they took us in there and we played for a week
and my father looked at me and he said uh when I got the contract from Mr
McPhail who was the scouting director at that time we got the contract at
our house and my dad who was a very tough man uh he took the contract and
looked at it and toward all the pieces and I started to kind of cry and he
said to me, I said dad why why are you doing that? And he said son, I
followed a mule all my life and you're a good student and you're going to
college and that was the end of that. Well it sounds like your family
didn't have a lot of money. Why did your father think you couldn't go to
college? Well because I was fortunate enough the Yankees had had an end
with Illinois, wesleyan university which is a good academic school in
bloomington Illinois. And they called up, they called back and said we
didn't have a phone but they got ahold of somebody in town and said that I
could get a scholarship there if I would work some well I didn't have
anyplace else to go. So I went I grabbed on, my dad was a brakeman on the
train and he put me on a train and swift in Arkansas and we had to change
trains in ST louis, I got lost in ST louis depot and I never made that
train and I finally arrived eight hours later than I was supposed to
because they had a group that was going to meet me from the sigma chi
fraternity, I went there without a sport coat and are a suit and news
newspaperman by, by the name of Brick Young took a liking to me and he
gave me $200 and said go buy some clothes for Pete's sake and I did, so
what was college like college was good, it taught me to grow up and gave
me some class which I certainly didn't have when I went, I was just a
country boy from Arkansas and uh I had a great coach, a guy named Jack
Hornberger was one of the greatest men I've ever known and he kind of took
me under his wing, I did okay grade wise in college, so he never had to
worry about me and that's what he told my advisor, he says I don't want
you calling me about this boy because he won't have any problems and you
just give him whatever classes he's supposed to take.
Well I majored in physical education because that's what I want to do and
I minored in philosophy in english playing baseball and basketball. So the
college, you said it was a scholarship through the Yankees, The Yankees uh
in those days we're talking about 1948, there wasn't a lot of rules about
scholarships and so forth, especially in a small school like Illinois
Wesleyan was 1000 students. And so they made arrangements to fred young
the sportswriter that he would take care of some of my expenses. And I
worked five jobs while I was in college and I played basketball and
baseball. I worked in a a hamburger joint with for a lady that was very
nice. I loaded seven up bottles on a truck on a seven up truck at night. I
was the night watchman until 10:00 at night for bike candy company. They
made, remember the old bar whiz best nickel candy there is. So that was a
great place to study because I never got any calls or anything. So and
then in the fraternity house, the sigma chi fraternity house, I served the
meals and washed the dishes. Is there any commitment to the Yankees after
you graduate? No,
well they had signed a player that was the best basketball player in the
conference and a catcher for Illinois Wesleyan and Mr Young who was a
pretty influential guy, was quite upset and so when he told them that and
they had knew that I wasn't gonna sign, they sent me up there to replace a
six to guy that was the best basketball player in the conference, that's
not the most comfortable feeling in the world. So when did you graduate
from college? I graduated in 1952. Uh my last year there, I needed eight
credits to graduate my 8th semester. What were your plans after college?
My plans after college were to play professional baseball. And fortunately
I got I had a chance to do that.
I was a junior Eleanor Westland and I was the captain of the baseball team.
In my senior year. I was going to be captain of the basketball team
because my junior year, I led the team in scoring. I made all conference
in honorable mention little all american and basketball. I left everything
up to coach Hornberger, that was he was my guardian. So he says to me,
there's a couple of teams that have been asking about you at the end of my
junior year and he said one of them is the white sox and then Detroit and
the Yankees have asked and he said It's gonna be okay and if you go work
out with those teams and I said I'll go but you have to go with me. So we
went to Chicago 1st and I worked out with them and they had a hard
throwing wild guy that they, that paul Richards said, well we better find
out what this kid can do Because I think I hit 470 in college or something.
But it's just a small, you know conference, it wasn't anything important.
And so this guy named with luke red yellow and he hit me right in the
back and I jumped up and grabbed a bat and got back into the box ready to
hit again. And I guess that impressed paul Richards that maybe I had some
toughness. And so we went up to talk to frank lane, the general manager,
my coach and I and my coach says to him now frank bobby is my captain in
both baseball and basketball. We're not just gonna sign for anything, It's
gonna take at least $10,000 to sign this boy after his junior year
franklin got up and left the room. I thought oh boy coach, you really
messed this one up. He came back with a contract and my coach fainted in
his chair Because he he was my senior year. I coached the freshman team in
basketball said thanks coach, I'm 10,000. I don't even know what to do
with it. So I bought us some kind of an insurance policy at that Comes to
in 20 years. I didn't know what to do with the money. Like I've never had
any after I met my wife Elliott when I was in the army. I did buy a car
with the rest so I could marry her. Did you play? I played in the minor
league six years, got as high as double triple a two years. One of
charleston and the american association and the other one in Indianapolis.
But the white Sox had nellie Fox playing second base who is in the Hall
of Fame and Louis a priest. So playing shortstop who was in the fall of
fame and they had bobby who couldn't carry either of their uh even their
gloves around for them. So I knew it was I had gone to University of
Colorado and got my master's degree while I was playing baseball. So I
knew that it was time for me to call it quits. And so I did. And Uh
nothing but baseball ever since 19 since 1951. Although uncle Sam he did
buy up my contract for a couple of years. I tried to turn it down but He
wouldn't, he wouldn't accept I was drafted in the Army for two years. So
uh that's two years I missed in the middle of my baseball career. The
draft board lets you know when you get out of college you're gonna be
called within 10 days. So you know what's coming? They did in those days.
So they called my dad called called somebody up there and said bob is
going to be drafted 10 days later. And so the white Sox sent me out for 10
days and I went from there into the army And where did you go? In the army
? I went, I ended up with most of the time. I am not a guy that talks
about being in the war anything because I wasn't, I was an entertainer for
the troops uh in basketball and baseball. I made both of those teams in
the in the at fort ord in camp roberts in California. And with my dear
wife Ellie who's 50 corn would be 54 years in February one day I was in a
train station in a ball in in Wichita Kansas And it was four pretty nice
looking girls that came in there and sat down and in those young days I
was I was pretty outgoing too and I was smoking a cigar and I went up and
sat down with them and I kind of liked the looks of Ellie better than the
others. So I, most of my conversation was with her the next time that we
went back to Wichita she and her father who's a Lutheran minister where
and his family. Our family was sitting in the first row in Wichita when we
were playing Wichita with colorado springs my first year out. So she asked
me for my autograph and I said I will give it to you for your address. So
we wrote a little bit and she was from Kansas and I got drafted and sent
to fort sill Oklahoma and they didn't have room for a ballplayer there. So
they told me I could go to camp roberts and play. And so they shipped me
to there and I've been corresponding back and forth with Ellie. She was
teaching school in Pasadena California at a Lutheran school grade school.
So I called her, we got together six months later we got married and she's
been putting up with me ever since. I feel like you had a lot going on.
You say you had time to get a master's degree too. I got a master's degree
by in two semesters and I wrote a thesis on baseball and that's what got
me at Arizona State University which has been The best 13 years of my life.
And I have met the greatest people there that I've ever met in my life
including the guy that played for me
Run through a little bit again. You got out of college in 1952 when you
were in the army 54 through 54 and then I came back and played minor
league baseball for five more years and then I found out that I wasn't
good enough so I didn't keep beating a dead horse. I just quit and I got a
chance through my advisor at the University of colorado to interview for
the A. S you job and mr smith. The athletic director was Globe Miami and
he went to a pay phone because he and dr Bartell mom, my advisor were at
Iowa preflight together so I had a pretty good end there and he
recommended me dr Bartell MMA and mr smith called me and five minutes
later I was the coach. I've never seen him and he had never seen me.
Things don't happen like that. That's about as lucky as it gets. What what
made you want to come to Arizona. Well actually because it was closer to
uh to Indianapolis and Chico state.
See there were two jobs open that the professor thought dr Bartell my
thought I could get one was at Arizona State where they only had a club
program john Jacobs who came here today uh played on that team and they
played junior colleges and they played the air force bases and they always
played Arizona, I would like to go where they were just going to start a
program, a full time program and try to do some good. And so mr smith
called me five minutes later I was on my way here when the season was over
, he said to me, his final words to me were I said Well what does this pay
Mr. Smith? He said I'll give you $6,000 a year but you can't take a summer
job, you've got to be on the campus. And so I said well last year I went
to Venezuela and played winter ball and with what I made playing here I
made over $8,000. He said to me very plainly bobby. I'm going to the siba
que The trout might be Buyten I'll give you 60, I need to know something
right now. I said I'll be there. That's how I got here. I went to, I got
here a roundabout way though, We drove up route 66 and I ended up in
Flagstaff at Arizona State College and thought I was in Tempe. So I got
off and it was football, it was football time. And I went to the football
coach there and I said, hey coach, I'm looking for Mr Clyde smith, I'm
your new baseball coach. And he said, well son, you're about 100 miles too
far north. So Ellie and I got in the car with our first daughter who was
two months old and we headed down for Tempe, That was 1958 September
baseball season in the minor leaguers is in the minor leagues is over the
Labour Day. And we jumped in the car and headed for here.
Well I thought it was a wonderful place, it was. I expected to get a high
school job, my first job and this opportunity came along and the biggest
break of my life other than when Ellie said, I do, but uh it is such a
wonderful place. And uh and once we got recruited, you see we couldn't get
a, we couldn't get an in state kid when I started, we couldn't get one
because the university of Arizona was a powerhouse and we were nil. And so
we just kept plugging away and we finally got a couple of Arizona kids and
when we did they didn't get any more of the good ones very often. So
that's how it worked out 1958.
Yes it was, it became a university the first year that we were here
programs like here. Well I came to mr smith when I first got here and said
Mr smith uh we would like to have fall ball and I have not found the
baseball field and he said bobby, he talked rather slow. He was just a
nice pennsylvania man. And he said bobby we don't have a baseball field a
you're gonna build it. That was news to me. So I jumped on the phone and
called Indianapolis beautiful triple A field in Indianapolis. And I got I
talked to the owner and I asked him to send me the diagram the plans for
the field. He did bob swab, bless his heart. He got his what little crew
he had was not more than three people. and from September 10th about when
we got here On Jan on February the 5th they we had a baseball field and we
build it right next to Apache, it was the where the tennis courts were
later built right next to the old Hayden hall and it was right back up to
that and we had a little dressing room I don't think it was as big as this
room for our baseball team, but it was right there where they could just
walk out and go right on the field.
Yes. Good field was the base was the football field at that time and the
track was around the inside. That's correct. That sports area of campus.
Yes. Because the gym wasn't very far away either. I mean all the three of
them were right there together. The football field, basketball, the track
and the baseball. We're all within 100 yards of each other. How does he
expect you to? But without a field they didn't, they just saved it as a
nice surprise for me when I got here. So so we just got together and we
had those old concrete dugouts and and we had a field that was part of the
physical education field. And every in the spring when we started to play
our players who none of them had a job. It got paid except at the dog
track because I had two scholarships when I came here and they would put
up the tarp, we'd put up these poles in and bob's swabs group would put
the concrete and with the holes in them and we put the holes in there and
my players, our players, Arizona State's players would put the fence up
and then we would take it down when the season was over. That's how we
started. I mean they could work at the dog track. Well they had they had
to have a way to make some money and I had to make more money than 6000 a
year with one child and another one on the way. And uh, so I became the
head lead out at the dog track at night five nights a week plus being the
coach and teaching 12 hours a week because when I came coaches didn't have
the privilege of not teaching. So I talked 12 hours in physical education
, first aid, the easy ones, you know that Arkansas Boy could teach. That's
what I did
and what did you do with the, I was ahead lead out. I had this big helmet
on fancy and with tassels hanging down and I lead the guys around the
track with the dogs. And then when we got in front of where the odds table
is and everything, I had to make sure that the halter around the the horse
, the dog's waste was not too tight and everything. So I joined and my
ball player would pull him on and I had six or eight guys that were lead
outs there, they took care of the Of of the dogs, putting them in the
little running cages and everything. And then I I watched them around like
I was a big dog making $10 a night and bad. You know,
that doesn't sound like a very dignified job. The head coaches. Well at
that time I wasn't a very dignified coach either. Let me tell you, the
program wasn't too dignified. What was your first team like 1959?
The first team was the freshmen couldn't play when I was a coach, so we
had to recruit at least six freshmen That we got no use out of until they
were sophomores, the 50-19-1-27 and lost 18 playing all colleges. So we
were pretty proud of that And Mr Smith was pretty proud of it because he
gave me a $300 raise for the next year. Yeah, for the year, not not a
month or anything, but that the teams got a little better and everybody,
everybody accepted my philosophy, which was a tough disciplinary
philosophy. If you didn't want to accept it, you could go back and be a
student and you can keep your scholarship if you want to quit, you
couldn't take the grind then you, that's what you did. But we didn't have
many guys that that didn't because I believe that discipline leads to self
discipline and self discipline can lead you to your best ability
colleges. What colleges? Well, we started Mr smith, our athletic director
was was just a wonderful guy. He was a little stingy with the money, but
he was a nice, beautiful guy. I'm telling you one of the best people I've
ever known and we started bringing in Wisconsin on in uh in that easter
vacation, we'd bring in a couple of teams. Wyoming would come in Wisconsin
and we would arrange it where everybody was playing each other for eight
days. And then we got, got the California schools interested and we did
give everybody um room and board when they came. That's what they got.
They got no travel money or anything but they got room and board at
Arizona State. So Mr smith was a great help even though we didn't have a
lot to begin with. We did end up having a considerable amount of help
financially. We never played on the road. We played all our games at home
because I felt that students should go to class. You mentioned playing all
your games at home. Now that doesn't seem very fair to the other teams
because you'd have the home field advantage. How could you do that?
Because we didn't have the money to fly anywhere. That's that's why we did
it. And those teams, we paid them to come out here and they love to come
here. That was the good thing about it because they were coming from snow
and sleet And we gave him 10 days vacation and a baseball game every day.
And in California the weekends they like to get away to, we didn't, we
did travel occasionally, we had to play go play conference games and those
type of things. And we went over to the marine station with sc and a few
teams to play over there. But but we did not make any long trips like to
play florida state or go to Hawaii none of that kind of money was
available in our day
places you can go on the bus or something. We went on the bus. As a matter
of fact we have gone places on the old Bluebird bus. We didn't even have a
greyhound or anything. So it was kind of tough when we first started. But
the guys saw Took it good naturedly. Well I don't know if they took it
good naturedly or not but they all put up with me and and we bonded
together and we played good from the very 1959 on we played good
and in today's baseball we're talking about 2006 they go on trips and they
they miss school and you know when I coached, I told the kids and some of
them are here was there's not gonna be any study halls for baseball
players. You're gonna get your own grades or I'm we're gonna have to say
so long because I like to play golf and I'm not gonna sit around at night
and babysit a bunch of athletes and that's the way it was. So most of them
were students first and then baseball on the side had three rules that
they should should know, I had several rules but three for sure. When you
come to this school, you're here to be a student first, you're here to be
an athlete second and you're here to be a person of character because if
you get in trouble, the first call goes to your parents
and believe me, anybody in Tempe after awhile would have called me instead
of putting them in jail because they had that kind of reputation that
there wasn't gonna be many of them get in trouble. But you know, I don't I
don't know of of any player that I had. Now I had some c we had a rule in
drinking at our school. If you get caught drinking by me, You are 30 days
, no play. If you get smoking, it's 10 days. Well I knew they smoked, but
and I knew that they had beers, hell I knew all of that. But I just want
them to be aware enough,
but they better not get in trouble because they're gonna have to pay for
it. It's not gonna be like some coaches say, well, I'm gonna, like we
talked about, well, I think that I will suspend him for the beginning of
the game. And if the team gets behind, he gets to run and play right quick
because the coach doesn't want to lose. But but uh we we had we had our
rules and the guys lived by them occasionally. They were pretty cagey, you
know, frank kush and myself and ned baldi baldi didn't drink because he's
diabetic. We all had a beer. We went to frank's friendly tavern right down
here right by and we told, I told the players, boys you better not go to
frank's friendly tavern to drink because I'll be there and you'll be in
trouble. So it wasn't uh, I used to scare him once in a while by saying,
okay, I'm gonna come in and the after you take a shower, I'm checking all
hands. I want to see if there's any nicotine on any fingers. But I never
did. I wouldn't do something like that because those fingers get pretty
yellow, you know, and you as well, you have trouble with me. No, I'd say
not. I had very little, they had trouble with me, but I didn't have a lot
of trouble with them. What kind of trouble did they have with you? Well,
just following other regimen that it took to win three national
championships in five years. I hear that you had a ruler, had your players
run everywhere. Well, I can't brag too much about that. But there's one
thing that I always felt about a person in baseball, it's not a sport
where the athletes are in more than half good shape. My feeling was that
when this team played another team, if we were close in the seventh inning
, we could beat them because we would be in better shape than they were.
And my players never understood that because I never told him. But that is
why we ran as much as we did If we struck out, we ran back to the dugout.
If we made an out at first we sprinted back to the dugout. That's the way
we played and you know what? We've got other teams are trying to play our
way and we kicked him around. You said when you started off you couldn't
get Arizona players. No and we couldn't beat Arizona. You know, I mean it
was tough, they were good and we were a little bit more amateurish than
they were because we were a little short on scholarships and as I said
that did not stay forever. We got as much help as Arizona later on 20 full
scholarships and then they never went to Omaha since. But that's the way
we were. We played to win and we played to be gentlemen, we didn't argue
with umpires, No player ever looked at an umpire. I mean that was and I
got thrown out once in 13 years. That was because we're getting beat 12 to
nothing and I didn't want to stay and see the slaughter. So I got kicked
out. How did you grow the program from 1959?
Well, I was lucky I had played professional baseball six years a scout. I
hope that Mr smith's not listening to me up there. A scout never had to
play to see our game. Every scout got in free. The scouts sent us ball
players. Most, every guy in this room was sent to me by a scout or his
college or his high school coach and most of the players I had, we did not
have a recruiting budget. We never had a student that was strictly a
baseball player visit this campus in 13 years. So them to come here. We
just wrote him a letter and we started winning a little more and a little
more. Probably the first big player we got was rick monday.
And the Dodgers had offered him 25,000
and his mother Had said he was going to college, kind of like my dad, but
it's a difference in 25,003,
I went to see him. I went to see several of these players, Jeff Pentland,
guys like that, I went to see their families, but I went to see Monday's
family and it was quite a thing. We sat in a little, his father had left
him when they were two years old and his mother had done NElda was her
name. She had done a wonderful job of phrasing rick and the scouts had
told me that this young man is worth getting, he's worth going to see. So
I went to a little apartment in santa Monica, small living room and to bed
, little bitty bedrooms and we sat at the kitchen table and when I talked
to that lady NElda, I, well the way I recruited, I figured out who was
going to make the decision in the family. And if it was the kid's mother,
I talked to the mother and if it was his father, I talked to the father.
If it was the kid, I looked at the child and the kids. So I'm talking and
it's pretty obvious that she's gonna make up rick's mind. And I was
talking along there and she talked kind of slow like I do. And I said, you
know, mrs monday, you don't talk as fast as most Californians. Where are
you from?
And she said were from Arkansas.
I said, so am I? She said, where do we sign? That was the end of the
recruiting. That was it. And that's a true story. I had advantage over
Rodney sc Yes, I did. And what year was that? He was in 1960 for? He was a
freshman and he was from Batesville Arkansas until he was two years old
and I was from Switzerland, which was 38 miles apart. We had a lot of, a
lot of great players when he came, I'm not saying that, but he was the guy
on the west coast that was a big guy that everybody wanted. And so he just
kind of started it up and after that we got all good players. I cannot I
cannot say that my coaching won any national championships busy because I
think coaches get too much credit when they win, when the team wins a
coach's job in my opinion is to prepare the player And once the games
start, it's the players games. These guys will tell you that that played
for me. I never coached 3rd base, I never coached 1st base, I never told
the catcher one pitch to throw in 13 years and now they take up 30 minutes
or 40 minutes of the game of the catcher looking over there. What am I
supposed to thrown out coach? I mean coaches actually called pitches now
all during the game. Well I'm figuring if you're a coach and you can't
teach a catcher what his pictures, best pitcher pitches, then you've got a
dumb catcher and you're not too smart a coach. And that's the way I feel
about it. And when the guy, if he ever threw a bat or anything boy had to
run a lot. No, we just did that. I didn't yell at God, I didn't really
yell at guys, seldom did I ever yell. But the players later told me that
when I started talking in a lower tone, they knew they were in trouble
because when I was yelling, I was having fun with them. But I, I can't
emphasize the character of the players that played at this school and what
they've done for the school baseball guys. I mean because they are still
loyal to this school and a lot of them live in this valley, tell me about
that first championship team. It was unbelievable. We played and we won,
we beat Arizona's and then we had to play to Utah and colorado. Uh, we we
played Utah had to beat them. Uh, we had to beat Arizona in a playoff game.
And jim Armstrong who was in this room today, Started the season. Oh for
38. He was my shortstop. And of sportswriters were telling me about this
kid. Armstrong and all that and this and that or it was something that
about that many. And I said, I don't want you to worry this guy because he
can catch it and he can throw it and someday he'll be able to hit it. It's
just that I wasn't smart enough teacher to get him to do it right away.
You know? And we played the Arizona into play. We played Arizona in the
playoff game and you hit that shot to center field. He won the game in the
15th inning. Was that it? Oh that was Jacqueline. Okay, edit that out.
Whoever's doing the editing. Oh, blooper. He had a blooper. We went and
go to Omaha and win. Really hit hard.
Did Jacqueline come OK. 15 innings and then we beat Utah two out of three
I guess up there. But you know what? I've got the wrong here, don't I?
There? You're all right here.
Five 65. Yeah. We had
monday and Bando and we had Jan Kleinman Louis Lagunas. And did we have
Jacqueline that year. pressure?
Well, I mean it's shortstop.
Well I just said that army but okay, we better get on pam. I know we're
wasting a lot of time. I'll tell you about that team. We went there and we
knew we were a good team and our pitching was not, we didn't have an
overpowering pitcher except the guy named john Pavlik and uh a little guy
named Jim Merrick pitched that last game against Ohio State in oh maha and
he was about my size and didn't throw very hard but he had a wonderful
curve ball and great control. They pitched the guy that played in the big
leagues in the final game, Monday, hit a home run in the 7th inning to put
us ahead 2-1. And a guy named Nurenberg came in to pitch the last inning
in two thirds or the last two innings and shut them out and we went 2-1.
And we're all agog community. I will say this about the community. There
were 8000 people showed up at the airport
when
Mr Goldwater ran for president. There were 4000 showed up at the airport.
So what do you think that people thought about that team? They're pretty
they were pretty proud of that team. Yes, they were support did you get
for your, just your ordinary games here.
Yes, they didn't charge for baseball games when I came and we started
charging a dollar a game. And of course the faculty, they could just walk
over and the students could just walk over the little stands, only held
about 2500.
And actually my our teams during my term, I never got to play in Packard
Stadium. We played over there forever. And just to give you a little
background in the 7th inning. Our pictures we had drags made about four ft
wide. I guess our pictures drug the infield in the seventh and the 5th and
7th or seventh inning. And they were out there dragging the infield and uh
, they didn't get paid for it. They just did it because we asked them to.
But back then there weren't other teams pro teams competing for the
audience and things that you know, they had a triple A team here. The
Giants had a triple A team which was a very good team. But we can't, we
drew we drew more as time went on and we had eight or 9000 when we play
Arizona. I don't think the rivalry is as tough as it is now as it was when
we coached here, we played in Tucson one time they let the tires out of
our bus and they beat us and we sat there on the bus. Had a guy named Jeff
Pentland pitched a great game but we got beat one another and then we'll
go out to get on the bus and we're all a little distraught and the fire
and the air is out of the tires. Some guy snuck in where the bus was and
we're sitting there with flat out flat tires on them. But we waited till
we got help and came home about two in the morning or whatever it was,
there was nothing we could do. That's the way we got home that the rivalry
with the Arizona was the greatest, it was the greatest and I know the team
that won was delighted and the other one was very downtrodden, you know.
But 1st 19 and 19, we tied them three games apiece. But the committee
knowing that they were, that the great team and we were the up and coming
team picked them over us to play in the playoffs. and so when 64 on They
didn't go again through 71
frank Sanson was actually, he was a gruff old guy, but our fans called him
the money. That wasn't very nice, but things weren't very nice between
fans in those days are football players would be beaten on top of their
dugout and we'd go there and they'd be yelling at us. It was just made
that way. I mean it was just a rivalry, it was a doggy dog and it's not
that way anymore. But and we finally finally got, I finally got together
with frank since it is, that was the coach for, He was an old timer when I
was just a kid. I was only 28 when I got here. So he said Frank, we got to
cut this out. We got get more people to be a little more civilized and
what we're doing here and we did and then it kind of settled down and it
was pretty nice. Do you want to talk anymore about some of your other um,
well every championship team had to, you have to be a good team or you
can't go play the best eight teams in the country. And, and when uh, I'd
have to say almost all of my teams were pretty much alike. They were
gentlemen when we went there, they were gentlemen when we won and they
were gentlemen when we lost. And I remember the first trip we made in 1965
,
we stayed at the Old Blackstone Hotel in Omaha. Aw. And the head of
security came to me when we're playing the final game And he said if you
guys win tonight, how many extra men you want me to put on? And I said
zero, I don't want to see any extra guy going around the hallways because
there will be no trouble. And there was no trouble
any year. We were there, there was not any trouble. And you were also
named coach of the year. Yes. Uh that's a nice honor to have. I mean, you
know, without a doubt it's a nice honor. And I had a lot of guys make all
american and only got a lot of guys that didn't that could have made all
american but they can't let everybody from the same team make all american.
You know that just doesn't work that way. But I I know that my players
are the reason that I'm sitting here today. It means to be in those days
you got 1000 bucks which to take your family. I think that year they had
they we went to Bermuda so that was a nice deal. Uh Adirondack bad company
gave that award. Otherwise it's just you go to a banquet and you get to be
better known throughout the country and it happened to me about 11 times
throughout the country. Ohio State has they have their big banquet and
they elect sometimes there were others but they're nice. But you don't you
don't want to ever forget who you are. What are the challenges that you
had to overcome to make the program work? You had to get a schedule number
one so that the N. C. Double A. Recognized it. In my case, I never had to
get a guy into school. He got himself into school. It's just a gradual
growth just like becoming a a man from being a boy or a woman from being a
girl. That's what it's like And that's what we did. We grew and we grew
and every even numbered year after 1965 we lost seven or eight of our
players that were juniors sophomores. So the following year we would do
the best to build up. And in the odd year we would have sophomores again
to play. But freshman could not play. That's a big thing with with with
the scholarship money. Well in baseball was one of the only sports that
had to compete with the pros weren't they mean football and basket? I
don't know in that time if basketball and baseball players could sign
before they graduated or not. But our guys could sign as sophomores at the
end of their sophomore year when I first came. And then the N. C. Double A.
Got together with professional baseball and they made it at the end of
your junior year. But it's still at the end of your junior year. So they
still the coaches now get them three years where we got them for two. What
about the financial Herbie? I remember when we went to, Oh Maha not maybe
the first time but the second time Mr Smith gave us a raise. He said you
can give the guys $10 a day to eat on. And my budget for one year. Our
budget for one year. I was $32,000. Never paid an assistant. I didn't have
an assistant for 13 years. It was just the ball players and myself we had
a freshman coach and always you know he was important because he had to
coach the freshman team and that it was all his, I didn't interfere in
what he did. I just told him the way we wanted to play. I never asked for
more as a salary. So That's where we were, whatever Mr Smith gave us one
year, he'd say, Okay, Bobby, I'm gonna give you 15 full scholarships this
year. I mean you know that's you're gonna that's gonna be your total use
them how you want. And we'd recruit maybe six freshmen and nine other guys
or whatever we could.
I was located with dr fred Bryant and Rudy Leveque. There were three of us
in one room. I was a baseball coach and they were professors, that was it.
It was in the old gym and there was three of us in one room I think kush
was the only guy important enough to have his own office and deservedly.
So what kind of relationship did you have with frank kush frank kush,
baldy Castillo ned walk and myself were actually like brothers. We became
brothers. I mean we helped each other out anytime we could. Football
players, played baseball, basketball players, played baseball. Baseball
guys ran track. It was that way. It was a small school when we first
started. I don't think that there's probably another school in the country
that has the camaraderie between four sports that we had. It's just
because we helped each other. I went to their practices. I'm out on the
football field trying to kick a football with a partner and and they're
coming to baseball practices and watching practice and we it was and they
are the athletes, all the football players came to our games and we went
to theirs and basketball, we went all all those games. And I mean it was
just it was a wonderful family is what it was. It's all part of the
athletic department. I taught more than the other guys because I was the
low man on the totem pole. Then later. It's funny. Well, what winning does
for athletics After 65? That that means I talked about six years Mr smith
came up to me and said bobby. I think if you taught the baseball coach,
you've got a lot of other things to do, you might drop those other classes.
So I dropped the nine hours a week and did baseball.
So winning does a lot of things for you, including helps your recruiting.
Believe me, you get a raise too. I came here making 60 213 years later I
left making 17,300.
So I'd say for 13 years I averaged 12,000 a year And raised three girls or
raised two girls and lost one and Ellie and I live just as good as anybody
else,
but none of the big salaries you hear about today? Well, no, I mean the
baseball coaches today make more in one year than I made in seven and 13.
But that was, that's a sign of the times, I'm good for them. I'm glad
they do, you know?
Yes, I found that out all the players had to listen to were me. They
didn't have to listen to five assistant coaches and say, which one do I
listen? Which one, which one am I gonna do? All I gotta do is just listen
to this Arkansas, the guy that's the worst guy I've ever seen. And but you
know, after they got out and found out that they all got good jobs and
they had some self discipline and they weren't afraid to work. You know,
they all started liking me a little better, not a lot maybe, but a little
better university overall. How did you see the universe? Well, it's
certainly got bigger. What are we now, the largest university in the
United States of America. And then when we came here it was 10,000
students and it was a college. I felt that the people, the professors and
everybody at this school were so friendly to baseball and the other sports
and they were members of a family at that time. I know it's a lot bigger
now and baseball doesn't mix in much with football and basketball, doesn't
mix in with this sport or that sport. It's kind of an individual thing,
but in those times we were all just a big family ROTC. We just coaches to
have coffee with them. Then we'd have coffee with Dean Thompson and this
guy and we'd just go every morning and have coffee. And it was just like a
family, a lot of people that were here during the 60s and there was a lot
of Unrest and protests, especially during the late 60s of the Vietnam War
and things like that. Do you remember much about those years? Did that
have any impact? I don't remember a lot about those years because it never
happened in any way in our baseball team. It didn't happen to any of our
teams at Arizona state at that time. I know frank kush Shut everybody off
in a hurry and I know that his players backed him and ned woke the same in
Baltica. Still, there were no problems at this school is that I remember
in the 60s when the uprisings were trying to happen rights movement that
was going on where your teams, we didn't have a lot of people for
integration because a lot of them signed out of high school or a lot of
them play football and basketball. A lot of the black guys. And but we had
several, yes, we had several bad guys. We had some people from the Mexico
area down in that area and uh but we didn't have a problem. They all knew
I loved them because they could play good, not what color they were or
whatever.
Reggie was a football came here on a football scholarship and Reggie was a
wonderful player and Reggie was a great kid with me And there are some who
say he changed a little bit after he left here and I'm not to get involved
in that. He was a great, very much of a gentleman. He played baseball and
football. He was all conference in football as a sophomore and he was all
american in baseball as a sophomore. Wonderful. He got along with me. That
was the important thing. It was important if I got along with him or not.
What about the university president? President's wife was when they
decided to go to Omaha. Aw, I got the biggest kick out of Mrs Durham. Mrs
Durham was up there yelling, shaking her fist. She was going over the edge
of the dugouts. President brought her and I think she had to go back every
year. We went back. Is it harder today to go to Omaha than it was back?
That's a very, very tough question. And I'll tell you why it is so
different In today's world, 64 teams get a chance to go In our day. There
were eight divisions And a playoff with the two best teams in the division
and that team went, so there would be 40 teams that didn't, it wouldn't
have a chance to go that have a chance to go now. Uh And yet you have to
play more games now to go uh, than we did. We had to play two series to go
, one in the conference and one in the other independent when we were in
the wax. So I don't know which is tougher to go. I do know that when we
went, we played every day in Omaha, aw until you got down to the end and
you might get a day off. But Today you get a lot of time off and two or
three pictures can hack it today. But That was a little tough when you're
playing five or 6 days in a row. Well what made you decide to leave the
issue?
Well, I was 42 years old and to be truthful with you and I don't, I'm not
fond of talking about myself, but I felt that if I stayed here
Until I was 65 years old that we were just gonna win a lot more national
championships and that The challenge would someday burn me out long before
I got to be 65. I mean, not the challenge but the just the going over and
over of it year after year that I would get burned out And because I knew
we were gonna win. I mean, I didn't know we were gonna win in Omaha. Aw,
but I knew we were gonna have a chance to go every year because the
players came here and our players recruited other players and told us
about other guys that could play. And when you get that happening to you
and you've got the climate that we have, you're gonna win if you can coach.
So the angels, gene autry had a guy that owned channel 12
and he was uh Mr Autry's buddy. And Mr Autry got a call from him one day
and said, we've got a young guy named winkles over here, you ought to hire
him. So Mr Autry sent a guy to talk to me and and he said, we'd like for
you to manage our triple A club. And I said, I'm sorry, I've got several
players here that'll be Triple A players. Yeah, I'd be making a lateral
movement and they said, well, would you coach first base? I said I would
give that a try. And so I went over the Angels and I coached first base
1972. and in 1973 I became the manager 74, I became the fiery or was I the
fire? I was a fiery. And uh, then I went to Oakland and managed another
couple of years and I quit at that position because I couldn't take a guy
named Mr charlie Finley Calling Me three or 4 times a day and tell me what
a lousy person I was. And so I spent 21 years up there And I came out with
a little bit better pension that I would have gotten if I had stayed at
Arizona State. So and but I did go, I did take a cut to go manage in the
big leagues. I was making 17,300 here And I was doing some clinics in the
summer for a Goodyear Tire Company and they were paying me 18,000 for the
three months. So I was doing okay when I was here, I'm not complaining
about that, but I had to do it on the outside, But I went there for 20,000
to coach in the Big Leagues First base and then I managed for 28,000
and that wasn't much either. But it it it's been a great life, mainly
because of Ellie is that's the main life and the guys that played for me
and I got along good with the big league players. I really did. You missed
it from the day I left, but it was something that I had made up my mind to
do that I wanted, I didn't want to screw stale in my sport. Why didn't it
work out with the Angels because we didn't win. And they decided that the
great experiment was over. I was the great experiment in baseball. I was
the first guy to ever go from college to manage in the big leagues. And
the actual fact is I screwed it up so bad. There hasn't been another one.
How did you? Just by being a bad manager I guess. I mean I had I had, I
had some problems and I had some problems with Pictures are not problems
but how to use 12 pictures instead of the four or five. So like these guys
that we had here and then I expected the veterans to do the same thing the
rookies did and believe me, they don't want to do that. We're like running
, getting in shape and doing that. They want to do that on their own. They
don't want you to tell him running. And I think the worst thing in the
game of baseball today. I started it in the big leagues is stretching. I
think more injuries are caused because of stretching than any other reason.
I think if you went out and ran 10-100s before you went out to play you
would find out you would not have the injuries that they have in baseball
today. So when you left the Angels, why did you go to Oakland? I went to
open because I got fired. So And so then I went to Oakland 10 days later.
So I wasn't out of a job very long and but I didn't manage Oakland either
. I went there as a third base coach. We won the world Series that year.
So I got a world series ring out of being fired. We beat the Dodgers in
1970 for four games to one and I had two of my own college players on the
team Bando and and monday. What was that? It was great because if I told
them to do something, they did it and it made it nice for and they were
both leaders on the club Reggie and uh, and sal and so it made it nice
when I, He said, Why don't we try this or do this even as a coach? They
didn't have, I didn't have them when I managed there in 77, But I had them
when I coached and they were nice to visit with and to talk things out
with. And it was a nice relationship. Did you learn more about the
difference of coaching in the pros? Yes, the mistake that I made and
there's no doubt about it in in my own mind was that I became a manager
too quick. See I didn't want to become a manager, but if they fire, if you
, if you get fired as a coach and you've only one year out of coaching at
Arizona State, you might not get another coaching job. Well, I wanted to
stay in the big leagues 10 years because that's when, when you become
fully vested for the pension plan and their pension plan is a little bit
better than the college pension plan was when I was coaching. And so I had
to take the managing job after my first year because they fired a guy
named Del Rice and then they came to me and said, do you think you can
manage in the big leagues? Well what am I going to say? No I don't think I
can quite do that you know you gotta say yes I can. And I think if I were
to coach three or four more years I might have managed a long time in the
big leagues to have learned more about it. But faith sometimes is against
you as well as for you texas had all young players and they fired their
manager Ted Williams and they wanted to hire me as a coach. I have the
articles from the Dallas papers that I had the job but nobody in the
Angels organization ever told me I had it. And so the Angels when they
found out that I had the job although I hadn't been talked to. But uh a
guy named randy Galloway out of that he knows what's going on. The sports
writer. He's like Dean he knows everything that's going on. And so he
already had written the article that Mr Short had said bobby winkles is
going to be our manager because they had those young players like Smalley
and Billy the third baseman and you know I mean good players which I could
have fitted in with very well. But I didn't know that my brother sent me
the papers after I took the other job my brother was against me. He lived
in Dallas And so I didn't get that job and and I took the other one too
early. But I had to do it out of fear because I feared if I left I already
had U. C. L. A. Had already said if he's gonna get fired we're gonna hire
him. And I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to go back to college. No
I wanted to finish what I had started And 21 years later years later I
left the Big Leagues with a variety of jobs. I was a broadcaster for five
years for the Montreal expos. I ran the minor league system for the white
sox for four years. Any other years. I coached never made much money. I
have the most money. I have one year I made 90,000 in the big leagues
because I had the owner right where I wanted him. He he he needed me badly
And I was making 65 and I told him I'd come back for 95 for 90 and he told
general manager, give him what he wants. I could ask for more and I didn't
But that's a fact that's the most I've ever made. I coast in the big
leagues for 20 years like eight years for 20,000 a year for eight years.
So I would I never looked at the money because Ellie never bugged me about
money. She gets the credit card one day a week.
Just joking hon. Mhm I think I know who runs yeah I know who runs our
family and it's not me and I don't want to,
what advice do you have for for young people today that are trying to
decide what they want to do with their lives. I don't think that's in
today's world. I don't think that's an easy job and I and the one thing
that I would always say to young people is if you don't enjoy what you're
doing, change jobs. I mean I see people driving along the freeway and
everywhere and their heads are down and they're frowning and their lips
are down and I had never happened to me because I love baseball all my
life and I watched these guys that and I really feel that if they had just
had some coach and said, okay 1st 20 guys that show up, get on the bus,
we're gonna make a trip over for a three game series. My guys knew that if
we're going to leave at 7 20 we left at 7 20 that they learned some self
discipline frank kush would do the same thing. I love frank kush and ned
walking baldi just like being my brother and I still see them and we still
talk and I know this is not the place for this necessarily but frank and I
have talked and we kind of believe that one of the reasons that team teams
don't play better is that sometimes the hedge coach does not get involved
enough when I coached it was these guys and me Now you've got four or 5
coaches and the players sent, who do I listen to? What do I do? What the
infield coach says? Do I do what the main coach says? And the coach, I, I
don't think that the head coach gets involved enough is all I'm saying
into running the program. And if you ask Frank 1st, she'll tell you the
same thing. Do you think that the coaching has changed a lot? It has
because of the help. I mean everybody frank kush as far as I know had
Chuck Fairbanks and Dictum Bureau and he might have had four coaches. How
many coaches you think we're running out there today,
anybody know, I mean, I'd like to know myself, but I'll bet you it might
be double
because frank had that whistle in his mouth when he was out there and
there was one thing for sure. If you watched frank because his teams train
, nobody was gonna touch the quarterback. He had that whistle. And if
somebody got close to the quarterback, the whistle blew and everybody
became a statue because you know, without the quarterback and without
pitching, you don't win in baseball and you don't win in football, the
salaries today in baseball has changed the game. I think so as far as the
major leagues are concerned, you know, there are no salaries in college
ball, but in the big leagues, When a utility player is making $2.5 million
dollars a year. That's a little outlandish. But what kills the old timers
like me is that the owners keep complaining about losing money and keep
giving them all the money. I mean, how can you complain about losing when
you're giving it to them? It would be like a coach, his teams going out
and losing and and he's sitting in the dugout and never goes out. And they
said, why is your team losing? He said, I don't know, there's just bad
players I guess, but it's because he's not teaching them anything. Well,
the owners aren't teaching the players anything by saying we're not gonna
play if we can't have a salary cap And they don't have one. Does that
affect the college players too and towards no, it doesn't. College players
are altogether different. I think 11 mistake I think that the big leagues
makes is they don't hire enough college players Because when a guy spends
three years in a decent program, you know, a lot more about him than you
do when he's 18 years old of whether or not he's gonna earn that $800,000
you gave him or not. And uh Jeff Pentland is a major league coach. He was
a picture for me and he's now a major league hitting coach and has been
for years, he's going on 10 years, he's gonna be fully vested before long
and he, I had him pitching shows you how smart a coach I was.
He could hit though.
We do have some outstanding players that are here that were outstanding
people and they pretty, if you wanted to ask them anything about the
program, it would be fine with me. I mean they do have a tendency to rip
me up a little bit, but I can't take it. I'm a big boy. Do you think coach
is now in the colleges? Do they coach with that same this finger and it
was your fault you're getting, I'm suing you, you know, I mean everybody's
so happy. So it's tough to, it's tougher to coach today. And it was when I
coached because there's just so many more things you have to do. You've
got to raise money. We didn't have to do that. I just taught and coached
and The kids and I got together, I taught a class, they all took
baseball's.
Well, number one is Ellie in 1953,
uh she's the greatest person I've ever known and I've known a lot of
important people. She had polio when she was 14. She was a concert pianist
at age 14. She sang solo in a church choir, her father's a Lutheran
minister, she was paralyzed, both arms and both legs with polio for eight
months. She got some of the strength back in three but her left arm, she
has not been able to use since she was 14 and she has stood by me and
raised those kids when I'm out in baseball. She drives, she sewed their
clothes because that was the way you did it and She is a magnificent
person and still is at 75 and that's the greatest thrill of my life those
years. But baseball, everyone in Omaha was a great thrill
and I just can't say enough about the guys that played for me. That's all
. I would not distinguish one team better than another. Even though the
players of the 69 teams say we're the best team, 67 team says we're the
best team. 65 teams says we're the first team and the best team. So what
can I say? I just be silent
particular thing that you're proudest of that you accomplished here. Well
, yes, I think that that baseball came from nothing. Not necessarily it
wasn't nothing and it wasn't not anything but it was not a sport that the
school played that they had a chance to do anything. And I think that that
accomplishment in 13 years and to leave it and as good or better hands
than when I came. I think that's I mean to leave it as good or better
players than when I was started. I think that was an accomplishment.
I don't know what else I've ever done. It was that important. But baseball
has been my life Arizona State was my life and Major league baseball for
21 years is my life. But that's not as enjoyable as college players. I can
tell you that, but it was the greatest time of our lives I think for Ellie
and I both, we've, you know, we've had the latest Hall of Fame is the
greatest honor I've ever had. As far as coach of the year or anything. So
down in lubbock texas, They started with 320 coaches and five of us made
it maybe. And that was it about having the field that Patrick State. Well
that was a great deal for for me to the biggest thrill of that. I didn't
feel, I never felt after I quit coaching that a lot of these guys cared a
lot for me because I was a mean that I was a tough disciplinarian, but I
will say this to all of them. I was a fair guy whether you had a
scholarship or you didn't, that didn't make one difference. Having a
scholarship in this school of making a team if you couldn't make it, I ate
the scholarship that's all. And so I will say that with a 123 guys showed
up for the name in that field from all over the country. That that's the
closest uh, that I ever came to breaking up in the speech because I'm
pretty good about not breaking up unless I'm that one. I kind of had to
turn my head a little bit and wait and say hi to President core and a
couple of guys and all the guys that played for me got good jobs. I'll bet
you that I don't have two guys that are maybe 150 guys that went through
this program that have kind of failed. I bet you there's not Over two out
of 150, I bet you all of them are making a good living and most of them
like what they do and uh, that to me was my biggest accomplishment. I
wasn't winning all the games and everything. It was, it was what came out
of, partly because of me.
Ellie and I retired. Uh, we uh, go to Ellie does not particularly like the
heat, which means we go somewhere right. And so we go to uh, Park City
Utah for two months and I put away the golf clubs and we fish every day
and we just enjoy each other. And then when we come back, she has a sister
in san Diego Encinitas and I get them together for a month because I take
Ellie over there and I stay out of their way and they do all their stuff
together for a month. And that's what I like to do. I'd like to play golf
and we're in La Quinta, We went there because
I met a guy named chuck Fairbanks who was a great football coach and he
was a vice president after he got out of coaching with a guy named Ernie
Vossler, who was part owner of three golf courses and three other ones and
three more. And they said if I would come there they would give me an
honorary membership with no dues. And I talk icon Deli into moving there,
and that's how I got there.
Yeah. And.
Mhm.
Okay.