WEBVTT 00:00:08.839 --> 00:00:10.839 we are conducting an interview for the Arizona State University retirees 00:00:12.830 --> 00:00:17.456 Association video history project. We are located today in the S. U. 00:00:17.489 --> 00:00:21.546 Community service building. I am heather who offered an A. S. U. Graduate 00:00:21.579 --> 00:00:25.456 and I also worked at A. S. U. For 22 years. A few of those years with our 00:00:25.489 --> 00:00:30.287 guest. Today I am currently a freelance writer and today interviewer. The 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:34.826 technical support staff today includes roger carter on audio and camera 00:00:34.859 --> 00:00:39.896 and David Shatz lee director. Dr Jankowski, would you please introduce 00:00:39.929 --> 00:00:44.646 yourself stating your name and positions at A. S. U. My name is Daniel 00:00:44.679 --> 00:00:46.906 Jankowski. 00:00:46.939 --> 00:00:52.317 I've I was at AS. U. for 40 years and during that time I was a faculty 00:00:52.350 --> 00:00:56.467 member having worked my way up through the ranks. I was also a vice 00:00:56.500 --> 00:01:02.387 chairman of Mechanical Engineering, Associate Dean for academic affairs 00:01:02.420 --> 00:01:08.016 and interim dean. And I closed my career at A. S. U. With a Uh service as 00:01:08.049 --> 00:01:12.507 the coordinator for the 2002 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:18.117 uh accreditation effort. Wonderful when we work together in the 00:01:18.150 --> 00:01:22.027 Engineering dean's office, I remember another universities fight song 00:01:22.060 --> 00:01:25.587 blaring from your office occasionally on friday afternoons. So I was 00:01:25.620 --> 00:01:29.647 wondering if you tell us a little bit about your time before A. S. U. Well 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:35.447 um you're referring to the university of michigan uh fight song and 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:39.266 certainly that was a tradition in the office that all the office staff 00:01:39.299 --> 00:01:47.299 loved but I was born in Hamtramck michigan which is a polish enclave 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:52.736 surrounded completely by the city of Detroit. It is a separate city but 00:01:52.769 --> 00:01:57.967 surrounded by Detroit. So it's kind of an interior suburb. I was born at 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:04.076 the home of my maternal grandparents. I was educated in secondary and 00:02:04.109 --> 00:02:11.846 primary schools that in in Detroit and mostly in in catholic schools. And 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:17.136 so I had the experience at that time of having nuns as teachers and they 00:02:17.169 --> 00:02:22.497 were of course there was a lot of discipline and a lot of motivation 00:02:22.530 --> 00:02:25.587 available in that setting. And I think it was a good setting for me as an 00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:31.497 individual. Uh going through high school, I came to realize that I wanted 00:02:31.530 --> 00:02:38.177 to become a college graduate not really knowing what that meant. But I 00:02:38.210 --> 00:02:42.656 received no encouragement from my family. My father never finished high 00:02:42.689 --> 00:02:47.976 school and while my mother did, she was not the type that really would 00:02:48.009 --> 00:02:52.446 think about education in a, in a broader sense and there was also no 00:02:52.479 --> 00:02:57.867 chance of any kind of financial aid from them. So I hit upon a plan to 00:02:57.900 --> 00:03:02.247 join the army because at that time there was something and there still is 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:09.406 I think called the G. I. Bill And it provided $110 a month for 36 months 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:16.976 for someone who served in the military. And so in september of 19 let's 00:03:17.009 --> 00:03:25.009 see, I'm trying to think of the dates now 1958 I entered the army and uh 00:03:25.129 --> 00:03:32.147 served until uh roughly two years including time in France. Uh this was a 00:03:32.180 --> 00:03:37.906 time when France was not necessarily pro american and in fact I have 00:03:37.939 --> 00:03:44.677 pictures home that have hand painted signs on buildings that say yankee go 00:03:44.710 --> 00:03:48.696 home because they did not want us there. One of the reasons there, there 00:03:48.729 --> 00:03:54.517 were two good reasons uh it was a very heavily influenced areas from a 00:03:54.550 --> 00:04:00.557 Communistic point of view. And secondly, during World War Two, The allies 00:04:00.590 --> 00:04:07.066 had essentially leveled the town because there's the famous uh UU boat 00:04:07.099 --> 00:04:12.767 pens were there and when I was there in the late 50s they were still there. 00:04:12.800 --> 00:04:18.707 They had never been able to knock them out. After 00:04:18.740 --> 00:04:24.156 leaving the army. I, I had applied to the University of michigan, the 00:04:24.189 --> 00:04:29.187 College of Engineering. Uh The only reason I did that was because I knew 00:04:29.220 --> 00:04:34.926 there was such a thing as in state tuition and secondly, I had visited the 00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:40.476 campus earlier while I was in high school. Uh I was very impressed of 00:04:40.509 --> 00:04:45.306 course anyone would be impressed if they've never seen a major university 00:04:45.339 --> 00:04:51.517 and it certainly was that in those days and it is more so now I entered in 00:04:51.550 --> 00:04:54.707 the fall of 1958 00:04:54.740 --> 00:05:00.697 and then a very important thing happened in my life. I got involved in a 00:05:00.730 --> 00:05:07.777 wrong number that led to a blind date with my wife who is now my wife 00:05:07.810 --> 00:05:14.036 Betty and we became, I used the phrase serious item not too long 00:05:14.069 --> 00:05:19.567 afterwards And uh we became engaged about a year later and then got 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.967 married in August of 1958 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.457 had just started college. Well, I just know, let let me get that, that's 00:05:26.490 --> 00:05:29.996 straight 1956, 00:05:30.029 --> 00:05:38.029 Um and we, we had Children very quickly, probably too quickly, by today's 00:05:39.389 --> 00:05:45.046 standards, but by the time I uh completed uh college, we had three 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:52.887 Children, um we did not have a good life in the economic sense. The, as I 00:05:52.920 --> 00:05:58.926 said, the G. I. bill was $110 a month, but I was able to get some work. I 00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:03.996 worked at various jobs, I worked at the university as a lab assistant, I 00:06:04.029 --> 00:06:08.166 worked as a teaching assistant. And then finally in graduate school, the 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:14.726 the breakthrough came program by the Ford Foundation provided funds to 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:20.116 individuals who were going on into college teaching. And, and for every 00:06:20.149 --> 00:06:25.166 year they spent college teaching so much of their loan was forgiven. And 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:30.046 so we, we muddled through, but we, we we did fine. And, and it was not an 00:06:30.079 --> 00:06:34.406 unusual thing, so we didn't feel picked upon. 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:40.536 Uh, as I got to the end of my graduate education, I realized of course, 00:06:40.569 --> 00:06:45.806 that I wanted to be a teacher and and I didn't really mean that in the 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:49.447 same sense as being a professor because I'm not really sure I understood 00:06:49.480 --> 00:06:53.397 exactly what a professor was about, but I didn't, I didn't know I wanted 00:06:53.430 --> 00:06:58.236 to teach and I was encouraged in that direction by the department chair of 00:06:58.269 --> 00:07:03.947 the academic department I was in, it turned out that Roughly 60% of the 00:07:03.980 --> 00:07:10.416 phds from that department were involved in college teaching. So there was 00:07:10.449 --> 00:07:14.476 a history of preparing teachers and there was a lot of things that the 00:07:14.509 --> 00:07:19.257 department did to do, that graduate students were given opportunities to 00:07:19.290 --> 00:07:26.116 teach. Faculty was involved in the planning of classes. And so it was a 00:07:26.149 --> 00:07:33.676 nurturing uh experience for those who had a desire to teach. In the spring 00:07:33.709 --> 00:07:40.027 of Excuse Me, in the spring of 1964, I sent outfielder letters to a number 00:07:40.060 --> 00:07:46.397 of schools, some of which were never answered of course. uh but I did get 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:49.306 three responses 00:07:49.339 --> 00:07:55.106 and one of them was from S you. There were two others. One was very 00:07:55.139 --> 00:07:58.656 surprising in that I had never visited the campus in my life. They had 00:07:58.689 --> 00:08:04.197 never seen me, but they returned a letter with an offer and for various 00:08:04.230 --> 00:08:08.827 reasons, I rejected that when I decided that that wasn't a place that I 00:08:08.860 --> 00:08:13.346 wanted to go to Cincinnati, they didn't make a, they didn't really look at 00:08:13.379 --> 00:08:17.757 me carefully. They hadn't even met me. It's not even over the telephone, 00:08:17.790 --> 00:08:21.877 You know, there's no no conversation or anything. Uh The other two schools 00:08:21.910 --> 00:08:29.507 I visited. One of them was S you and I visited in the March of Of 1964. 00:08:29.540 --> 00:08:37.540 Very pleasant. Oh, is that right? I didn't know that. Um I thought you 00:08:37.570 --> 00:08:41.457 were much younger than that. Um 00:08:41.490 --> 00:08:47.837 The weather was very pleasant. It was March Day, it was sunny and warm but 00:08:47.870 --> 00:08:54.226 not hot. Uh and I was treated very kindly by the faculty, I was being 00:08:54.259 --> 00:08:59.026 considered for a position in what was then called this uh faculty of 00:08:59.059 --> 00:09:04.756 injuring science and I was very attracted, very much attracted to the 00:09:04.789 --> 00:09:12.307 curricular aspects of that program and the opportunities I saw in it, not 00:09:12.340 --> 00:09:18.407 only for me as an individual as far as teaching was concerned, but also um 00:09:18.440 --> 00:09:22.657 from the student point of view, I thought it provided a very broad 00:09:22.690 --> 00:09:27.707 education to undergraduate students and I thought that was a good thing, 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:32.917 the future being an unknown thing. I think the broader the education you 00:09:32.950 --> 00:09:38.146 can get even though you're an engineer, it was a good thing. So um and of 00:09:38.179 --> 00:09:43.677 course it was a very nice, nice place to live and, and uh so I was given 00:09:43.710 --> 00:09:51.710 an offer. Uh I accepted it And in September of 1960 for we came to Tempe 00:09:52.529 --> 00:09:59.917 when I say, we it was my wife Betty and my three Children um all pretty 00:09:59.950 --> 00:10:06.337 still pretty young. Um I was awarded the PhD in december of that year. I 00:10:06.370 --> 00:10:11.506 had completed all the degree requirements before leaving and harbor, but 00:10:11.539 --> 00:10:17.557 they didn't, they only awarded degrees at at graduation at times and I was 00:10:17.590 --> 00:10:25.590 not able to go back to uh ann arbor for the actual graduation ceremony. It 00:10:26.220 --> 00:10:30.886 in retrospect, Looking back, I'm I'm sorry that I didn't do that, but the 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:35.506 economics were such that I couldn't I couldn't afford to to make that trip. 00:10:35.539 --> 00:10:37.707 Um 00:10:37.740 --> 00:10:40.707 I started at a 00:10:40.740 --> 00:10:48.146 rather meager salary in retrospect but I was I was treated well in the 00:10:48.179 --> 00:10:55.136 sense that the department or the faculty group there was a nice balance of 00:10:55.169 --> 00:11:00.587 of experience and young people. The american universities at about that 00:11:00.620 --> 00:11:06.276 time. We're starting to get this influx of government funding. National 00:11:06.309 --> 00:11:10.837 Science Foundation had a substantial fellowship program that supported 00:11:10.870 --> 00:11:15.837 graduate students. And that meant that there were a lot of phds being 00:11:15.870 --> 00:11:20.776 being graduated. And of course not all of them can go to M. I. T. Or or 00:11:20.809 --> 00:11:26.067 caltech or stanford so that that there were good people available for 00:11:26.100 --> 00:11:30.736 schools that were lesser known and A. S. U. Was just starting into the 00:11:30.769 --> 00:11:38.769 graduate of the doctoral level uh education at that point. So it was just 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:44.177 an interesting place. They were very nice to me when I came. Uh Good 00:11:44.210 --> 00:11:50.797 catholic boy. I remember Ted Allen who I know you know um taking me out 00:11:50.830 --> 00:11:55.537 for dinner on a friday night of course to a steakhouse. Um That was in the 00:11:55.570 --> 00:12:00.417 time when Catholics didn't eat meat on friday. He never heard the end of 00:12:00.450 --> 00:12:04.636 that one. It was not a malicious thing on his part but it was just one of 00:12:04.669 --> 00:12:09.417 those funny things that happened and I was shown around and and everything 00:12:09.450 --> 00:12:16.177 was fine. We came to Tempe driving across the country with the three kids 00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:20.146 and an on air conditioned car that I'll never hear the end of it from my 00:12:20.179 --> 00:12:26.846 wife and we arrived early in september because this academic year was more 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:32.707 traditional than it is now. And I started in and I started in teaching, it 00:12:32.740 --> 00:12:40.667 had some teaching experience and uh I was I was happy to do that and I 00:12:40.700 --> 00:12:47.717 truly enjoyed the experience of being truly in charge of course and what 00:12:47.750 --> 00:12:52.626 the students, the standards and what the, how the material was was 00:12:52.659 --> 00:13:00.659 presented. Um I was quickly identified as a a pliable young man. Um and I 00:13:02.210 --> 00:13:07.636 was through the years as time went on, I was often asked to teach a new 00:13:07.669 --> 00:13:15.547 course or get involved in some new activity. Um I took that as a 00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:17.766 compliment 00:13:17.799 --> 00:13:23.167 or maybe I was just being a tool, but I taught a lot of different courses 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:29.226 . I taught a large part of what the injury in core was at that time, the 00:13:29.259 --> 00:13:34.366 mechanics part of the Engineering Corps. And uh I enjoyed those courses. 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:40.677 They were a natural match with my education. I of course tried to uh get 00:13:40.710 --> 00:13:47.067 a research program going uh and and did was able to do some research, but 00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:51.846 the teaching responsibilities at that time were a lot more demanding than 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:59.146 they are now. Um it was not unusual then to teach three or even four 00:13:59.179 --> 00:14:05.317 courses a semester. Whereas now many of the faculty might teach that in an 00:14:05.350 --> 00:14:11.256 academic year. So it was very very difficult to do much in the way of 00:14:11.289 --> 00:14:16.427 research. But I managed the the philosophy was a lot different now if you 00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:21.587 go over to the the engineering center and walk through the buildings, the 00:14:21.620 --> 00:14:27.827 facilities are a lot nicer. All we had when I first came were the low 00:14:27.860 --> 00:14:33.506 buildings, the one story buildings along Palm Walk that still exist after 00:14:33.539 --> 00:14:38.356 A the A. B. And all those wings whatever they are. And then there was the 00:14:38.389 --> 00:14:41.957 G. Wing. Well the G. Wing was a building paid for by the National Science 00:14:41.990 --> 00:14:48.516 Foundation and I was I was one of the first to have an office uh in the in 00:14:48.549 --> 00:14:53.687 that building when I came. The bad news is I had to share that office with 00:14:53.720 --> 00:15:00.116 another individual. And so for a long time the goal was to get a single 00:15:00.149 --> 00:15:05.567 office to get a private office. Um Not even a window. Well that was first 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:12.596 the private office then I I went ahead and and I kept pushing and I got an 00:15:12.629 --> 00:15:16.866 office with a window. But it was in the a wing you know the one all right 00:15:16.899 --> 00:15:20.577 across from the bookstore. In the in the computer commons. But it had a 00:15:20.610 --> 00:15:24.636 window and it was a pleasant office and I was very pleased with that. But 00:15:24.669 --> 00:15:30.016 through the years I I must have been in half a dozen different offices. In 00:15:30.049 --> 00:15:34.996 fact I was in the a wing and I was taken out of the a wing and then I was 00:15:35.029 --> 00:15:42.226 put back in the a wing and that was that was in fact you know when you 00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:47.207 remember that big cart they built To carry books around because it was 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:52.087 moving time every summer there wasn't moving day and they'd shuffle people 00:15:52.120 --> 00:15:56.297 around and there was probably a reason for it but I really never 00:15:56.330 --> 00:16:00.947 understood it and always summer when it was 110. Yes. 00:16:00.980 --> 00:16:07.276 But anyway I think I was reasonably successful as a teacher. Um I 00:16:07.309 --> 00:16:15.309 certainly prepared. I worked hard. I can remember ah there was a period of 00:16:16.100 --> 00:16:21.157 time when I got involved in experimental work as a research activity and 00:16:21.190 --> 00:16:25.917 my background was not as an experimentalist. But when you're trying to do 00:16:25.950 --> 00:16:31.126 research you kind of go where the problems take you. And there was an 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:36.276 interesting problem that identified and there was a student who had good 00:16:36.309 --> 00:16:42.746 talents as far as experimental things went. And so my first real research 00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:50.779 effort was was in this experimental area. And as as I was I started to say 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:57.376 and and got sidetracked by my own thoughts. The engineering center at that 00:16:57.409 --> 00:17:02.077 time. Where were these these low buildings? And then the three story G. 00:17:02.110 --> 00:17:08.016 Wing and the administrative offices for the entire engineering effort. 00:17:08.049 --> 00:17:14.286 We're on this one floor on the on the first floor that everyone, all the 00:17:14.319 --> 00:17:19.076 all the various mechanical engineering. Electrical engineering said were 00:17:19.109 --> 00:17:23.697 there. And the dean's office was there, There were there were two deans, 00:17:23.730 --> 00:17:28.286 there was one bookkeeper kelly, Carolyn Brown as you know, and it was 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.207 really a much more 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:36.726 uh family type arrangement. You could you could go to talk to people 00:17:36.759 --> 00:17:41.306 directly without making appointments and and worrying about schedules and 00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:45.107 things like that and who was responsible, You knew, everybody knew who was 00:17:45.140 --> 00:17:52.367 responsible. So the one of the nice things that that has since been done 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:58.026 away with was the laboratory for the thermal sciences, which is fluid 00:17:58.059 --> 00:18:04.927 mechanics. My area, he transferred in thermodynamics. They were all in one 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:10.826 huge building, a big bay building. It had a high ceiling and it was 00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:16.187 everyone, all the graduate students doing experimental work with some some 00:18:16.220 --> 00:18:20.266 exceptions were in this big building. Well this meant that those students 00:18:20.299 --> 00:18:24.697 always interacted with each other. You know, they would talk to each other 00:18:24.730 --> 00:18:28.187 about the problems they had, they would talk to each other about their 00:18:28.220 --> 00:18:34.137 successes, the mature students would help the incoming students. And that 00:18:34.170 --> 00:18:40.796 was such a nice uh situation at all. I enjoyed that very much as time went 00:18:40.829 --> 00:18:46.677 on, that changed. And now if you go over there, you'll see that every 00:18:46.710 --> 00:18:51.996 professor again with some exception has a single laboratory, you know, 00:18:52.029 --> 00:18:56.496 with a locked door and you don't go in there unless you have permission 00:18:56.529 --> 00:19:00.967 and it has changed the the atmosphere a great deal. I was I was 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:06.127 disappointed in that the reason we had, that was one of the faculty 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:11.407 members who came from stanford. Um that was what this system was at 00:19:11.440 --> 00:19:15.917 stanford, this big open bay thing where students could interact and I 00:19:15.950 --> 00:19:22.137 thought we always, I thought we lost something by doing that. The college 00:19:22.170 --> 00:19:27.107 administration at that time consisted of lea Thompson 00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:30.796 uh and George meekly, 00:19:30.829 --> 00:19:36.367 lea Thompson was dean and there's the controversy of course as to who was 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.806 supposed to be dean, Was it supposed to be lea Thompson? Or was it 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:44.157 supposed to be George meekly. I I don't know, that was all settled before 00:19:44.190 --> 00:19:49.207 I got there, lea Thompson was a, 00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:56.207 it wasn't, it wasn't a nice man, a nice person, but I think 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:03.546 he he was and he was, he was his, I think his most significant effort was 00:20:03.579 --> 00:20:07.967 his support of what was called the injuring core. And this was the common 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.357 set of course, is that all engineering students had to take, whether it 00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:16.967 was a mechanical engineer or an industrial engineer. They, they had to 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:20.766 take this set of courses. And of course what it meant is you have this 00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:27.437 broadly based engineering group and that was good for the students. It was 00:20:27.470 --> 00:20:34.107 certainly uh well thought of Uh externally and in fact in about, oh I 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:41.056 don't know, maybe about 1990 George meekly established a report, a 00:20:41.089 --> 00:20:45.907 significant survey of the alumni of the, of the college asking their 00:20:45.940 --> 00:20:51.006 opinions and of course it was, they were favorably impressed with that and 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.486 how how much that particular style of education had helped them in their 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.976 careers. And that was one aspect that drew you to. That was one of the 00:20:59.009 --> 00:21:02.937 things that that drew in here because I agreed with that too. My my 00:21:02.970 --> 00:21:08.506 undergraduate education was an aeronautical was aeronautical engineering. 00:21:08.539 --> 00:21:15.177 Michigan has a has a longstanding uh strength in that area. In fact 00:21:15.210 --> 00:21:19.776 there's a building on on the main campus uh where there's a wind tunnel 00:21:19.809 --> 00:21:25.877 that goes back to 1912. And you you can imagine the history of of that and 00:21:25.910 --> 00:21:32.056 the and the people involved in that. Now the the injuring uh effort at in 00:21:32.089 --> 00:21:36.367 ANn Arbor has moved to a separate campus which is called the north campus. 00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:41.677 Uh It's some distance away from the main campus. Uh Of course the place 00:21:41.710 --> 00:21:45.996 has grown just as A S. U. Has grown and and the core is not in place 00:21:46.029 --> 00:21:52.877 anymore right there is the core eroded over time and eroded is maybe the 00:21:52.910 --> 00:21:59.097 good word more and more options were put into it. And as these options 00:21:59.130 --> 00:22:06.316 were poured in various people were either relieved of of of certain 00:22:06.349 --> 00:22:10.726 courses or they were allowed to take another course. That was really not 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:14.847 the same. It wasn't an or between two different fluid mechanics courses. 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:21.516 It was an entirely different or and the reason for that is that the most 00:22:21.549 --> 00:22:26.887 of the faculty had been educated in electrical engineering or in 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:31.776 mechanical engineering, our industrial engineering and they did not have 00:22:31.809 --> 00:22:37.127 in their background this cross fertilization that, that led to the idea of 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.897 the core. My education on the other hand, was initially an aeronautical 00:22:41.930 --> 00:22:46.516 engineering. But then I went into a subject called engineering mechanics, 00:22:46.549 --> 00:22:52.296 which is also defunct. Now, uh, there are very few engineering mechanics 00:22:52.329 --> 00:22:56.597 or applied mechanics programs in the country. It's a very kind of 00:22:56.630 --> 00:23:01.967 specialized program. It's usually a very difficult program. Ah, but it 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:07.776 does get you to appreciate breath. Uh, what I had to do as a, as a 00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:12.806 graduate student, for example, is I have to take courses in more in other 00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:17.576 than fluid mechanics, which was my major area. And so I, I had a sense of 00:23:17.609 --> 00:23:25.609 that and I thought it was this, this uh, the broad education before I 00:23:25.950 --> 00:23:31.207 started teaching and I really thought it was a good idea. But as I said, 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:36.056 the faculty educated in a different way. They, they put pressure on the 00:23:36.089 --> 00:23:40.617 dean, they put pressure on George meekly who was the associate dean who 00:23:40.650 --> 00:23:45.996 essentially was in charge of the core. And as time went on, it kind of 00:23:46.029 --> 00:23:54.029 eroded until near the end. It was, it was not truly a core. It was, it was 00:23:54.049 --> 00:24:00.377 a Sudoku or um, that as the dean's changed, they brought with them 00:24:00.410 --> 00:24:06.947 different attitudes about the core also. And finally, the uh, the dean 00:24:06.980 --> 00:24:14.286 that uh, I worked who was in in place when I retired, essentially said, we 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:18.306 don't have a core anymore and they did away with it. What it what it did 00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:23.546 is I think it it destroyed a certain Educational Philosophy which I 00:24:23.579 --> 00:24:30.407 thought was a good one. But it also gave the uh departments more strength 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:36.417 because they absorbed those those credit hours and those opportunities to 00:24:36.450 --> 00:24:42.776 teach. And so there was no longer uh the idea that you could take a course 00:24:42.809 --> 00:24:48.036 that was of interest to a civil engineer being taught by a mechanical 00:24:48.069 --> 00:24:53.056 engineer and that sort of thing I believe is good and it's healthy but 00:24:53.089 --> 00:24:56.996 that isn't the way it was viewed across the board. And so the core went 00:24:57.029 --> 00:25:01.717 away. Very disappointing thing to me. In fact you and I if you remember 00:25:01.750 --> 00:25:09.207 worked on what we called a modernization of the core where we tried to 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:13.726 provide some flexibility which is what the departments wanted but at the 00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:19.016 same time maintaining the spirit of that. And of course uh because of my 00:25:19.049 --> 00:25:25.617 eloquence that went nowhere. So but those were the days and it's it's a 00:25:25.650 --> 00:25:30.496 shame but I guess maybe that's uh some people would call it progress. I 00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:36.907 would not. I think I think there's a driver here ah when you anytime you 00:25:36.940 --> 00:25:41.736 try to educate students differently that means people have to do certain 00:25:41.769 --> 00:25:47.437 things differently. And in a in a system not only here at a. S. U. But at 00:25:47.470 --> 00:25:54.867 other schools where the research is the driver of of the of the faculty In 00:25:54.900 --> 00:26:00.516 large part they want to devote their time to the research because 00:26:00.549 --> 00:26:05.316 realistically that's where the rewards are and that's really what the 00:26:05.349 --> 00:26:13.349 goals are. Ah The it's unfortunate I think it was not really like that at 00:26:13.349 --> 00:26:19.306 the beginning years but the pressures and the wanting to be like stanford 00:26:19.339 --> 00:26:25.617 or michigan led leads you in that direction. And of course there's a big 00:26:25.650 --> 00:26:29.326 difference between stanford, a very highly selective school and even 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:33.976 michigan which is a pretty selective school. In fact I was surprised I got 00:26:34.009 --> 00:26:37.927 in though I had done I had done well in high school but I but I you know I 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:43.296 was just very surprised, maybe frightened too. Can you talk a little bit 00:26:43.329 --> 00:26:46.097 about the academic structure within the college when you first started? 00:26:46.130 --> 00:26:52.306 Because I think that was very different. Um lea Thompson would would not 00:26:52.339 --> 00:26:59.097 at that time allow the use of the word department. So there was no 00:26:59.130 --> 00:27:04.597 department of injuring science, there was a faculty of injuring science 00:27:04.630 --> 00:27:11.326 and what he what he was trying to do I believe was to uh strengthen this 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.986 concept of a core. We're all just faculty members were all just 00:27:15.019 --> 00:27:19.437 engineering faculty members. Now there have to be some divisions but this 00:27:19.470 --> 00:27:26.397 idea of departments and with as there are now departments have had have 00:27:26.430 --> 00:27:31.046 autonomous budgets. There was no such thing in those days there was no 00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:36.586 budget, you wanted something, you went to the dean's office and asked for 00:27:36.619 --> 00:27:44.619 money or permission to do whatever and he was very strong in that. But 00:27:45.019 --> 00:27:49.917 again, he got worn down because the faculty, he was hiring and of course 00:27:49.950 --> 00:27:53.627 there was a lot of hiring done in those, those early years. Schools 00:27:53.660 --> 00:27:58.857 growing more and more phds, as I said earlier, are, are available and 00:27:58.890 --> 00:28:04.316 there were good people on the market. Uh, there was the pressure to, to 00:28:04.349 --> 00:28:10.947 let go of that. It was so ridiculous that in those days of course there 00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:17.486 were no computers to type with and, but there were typists and they were 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:23.556 instructed that if if, if somebody wrote a paper and and gave it to them 00:28:23.589 --> 00:28:29.427 to type, they could not usually you start off by saying your name and your 00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:36.127 address, you could not say Daniel F Jankowski Department of Engineering 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:39.647 Science. If you did that, they wouldn't type that. They would type faculty 00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:45.806 , they were instructed to do that. So it was kind of a game. But the 00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:52.046 history indicated that that wasn't going to last. It was, it was not going 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:54.996 to be, so were their faculty leads within the difference since there 00:28:55.029 --> 00:28:57.927 weren't department chairs were there, there were, there were, there were 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:05.960 people like Ed Wallace was, you know, Ed was the chair of the faculty of 00:29:07.349 --> 00:29:12.766 injuring science And, and, and, and, and they were largely responsible for 00:29:12.799 --> 00:29:17.056 the core, not completely, but largely and, and that was good for me 00:29:17.089 --> 00:29:23.286 because it gave me a chance, I'd like to teach different things. Um, I 00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:26.347 tried to take my teaching seriously and I thought the students at that 00:29:26.380 --> 00:29:34.197 time were pretty good. The, The any class of whatever number you might 00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:40.816 pick 20 or 30 or 50 or 100 there'll be some percentage of them that are 00:29:40.849 --> 00:29:45.447 not very good. And, and it, there's a lot of reasons for that. You know, I 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:49.387 don't mean good as individuals. They, they, they loved their mother and 00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:54.056 they adored their father. I don't mean in that sense, I mean, that they 00:29:54.089 --> 00:30:02.089 were really not prepared or even had, uh, uh, a way of connecting with 00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:08.347 engineering education. And, but those in those early years, those students 00:30:08.380 --> 00:30:13.887 were actually very few in a given class and there were more students, 00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:17.647 there were a lot of good students and a issue does get good students. 00:30:17.680 --> 00:30:23.806 There are good students here. What has changed though over time, there's a 00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:29.306 change in the, in the percentage of those who are, are good and the ones 00:30:29.339 --> 00:30:35.076 who are coasting or trying to coast coast and a turning point for me came 00:30:35.109 --> 00:30:41.437 , this was, this was some years, uh, after teaching, you know, that years 00:30:41.470 --> 00:30:45.036 kind of run together and I'm not good at dates and things like that. I 00:30:45.069 --> 00:30:50.707 never kept a diary or a journal. Um, I was always too busy to do that. Um 00:30:50.740 --> 00:30:53.107 , 00:30:53.140 --> 00:31:01.140 but I had some students in one of my classes that I had previously had in 00:31:01.599 --> 00:31:06.887 a, in a, in a prerequisite class maybe to two or three semesters 00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:10.967 previously. And I, one of the first things you do of course is you look 00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:16.097 down your class roster and see is there anybody in here that I know? Well 00:31:16.130 --> 00:31:21.056 it was very heartening to see these names of students that, oh gee joe 00:31:21.089 --> 00:31:27.367 doakes was really good in course X. That's gonna be good for me. Well it 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:33.867 comes time this course starts and you, you start doing your thing and and 00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:41.900 one of the things I do is I ask a lot of questions ah I it's some kind of 00:31:42.819 --> 00:31:48.766 minor league Socratic method, you know, nothing, nothing spontaneous 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:52.857 questions are usually not necessarily planned out questions though, that 00:31:52.890 --> 00:31:59.986 changed as time went on and I started asking questions and I realized that 00:32:00.019 --> 00:32:06.147 those several students that I had thought earlier had done so well, I 00:32:06.180 --> 00:32:11.347 didn't really know anything they had forgotten or never knew. And there's 00:32:11.380 --> 00:32:16.637 a, there's a problem there with students learning for the moment, learning 00:32:16.670 --> 00:32:23.476 for the next test, learning for the final exam ah and these students, it 00:32:23.509 --> 00:32:31.457 was a big disappointment to me it truly was. And so I started, I did 00:32:31.490 --> 00:32:39.490 things a little differently. I made a twist a change in my style and and 00:32:39.539 --> 00:32:43.407 I started using three x 5 cards 00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:50.207 and each class of whatever number it was, each student had a card with a 00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:54.556 name, his, his or her name on it and if they wanted more than one, they 00:32:54.589 --> 00:32:59.397 could have more than one, most, don't want more than one. Uh though, 00:32:59.430 --> 00:33:02.927 though occasionally a student will want more than one. And so this is the 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:08.347 way it works in class when I come to a moment or a time when I think ah, 00:33:08.380 --> 00:33:12.387 here's a good question. I will look at my stack of cards and I will say 00:33:12.420 --> 00:33:17.076 john smith and I will oppose the question too. And it typically will not 00:33:17.109 --> 00:33:22.766 be a question that has an answer. That's uh, you know, spit back answer. 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:27.907 It's a, it requires some thought and, and I'm, and I'm trying to get them 00:33:27.940 --> 00:33:33.197 to say something intelligent about the topic and sometimes they do, but 00:33:33.230 --> 00:33:37.776 sometimes they won't even make a good try. Well if they do, I just take 00:33:37.809 --> 00:33:41.447 the card and I put it at the bottom of the stack. On the other hand, if 00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:46.467 they just completely flub it and don't have anything reasonable to say, 00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:51.586 then they go back somewhere else in the stack. And so there's a, there's 00:33:51.619 --> 00:33:56.586 an opportunity for them coming up sooner than would normally be the case. 00:33:56.619 --> 00:34:04.619 And students, even in my last days, I would occasionally get letters from 00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:12.467 students talking about those cards and they know Jankowski's cards were 00:34:12.500 --> 00:34:16.637 well known. I don't know if there's anybody else who did that sort of 00:34:16.670 --> 00:34:22.816 thing, but I did it religiously, I did it every class, every class had, 00:34:22.849 --> 00:34:29.177 had, had these cards and I felt they were just a great thing that you 00:34:29.210 --> 00:34:36.666 could not be, you could not sleep in my class. You could not uh, not be 00:34:36.699 --> 00:34:41.927 trying to pay attention. And I was not, I didn't use these cards had 00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:46.747 nothing to do with grading. They, you know, that there was no attempt to 00:34:46.780 --> 00:34:51.526 grade or to give points for this. It was just part of your, you 00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:57.467 participate in this class. This is one of the things you do. And I 00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:04.307 remember one letter I got from a former student and he said, 00:35:04.340 --> 00:35:08.827 I don't, I don't remember the entire letter, but the last question or the 00:35:08.860 --> 00:35:14.836 last comment he made was when I was a student, 00:35:14.869 --> 00:35:21.396 I I I thought that these cards were just a bunch of nonsense. And then he 00:35:21.429 --> 00:35:29.429 said, my students today say the same thing and he was, he was, you know, 00:35:29.550 --> 00:35:33.307 it was, I thought I took that as a compliment, 00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:38.767 but I still use them. The the overwhelming opinion was that that they were 00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:44.097 harassment, they were unfair, they were this or that uh, it didn't, that 00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:48.456 was just that was an obligation in my class that that was gonna be there. 00:35:48.489 --> 00:35:53.706 Well, in a sense, because the student body changed the earlier days, I 00:35:53.739 --> 00:35:59.236 remember I made comments that, that there were these varying numbers. Well 00:35:59.269 --> 00:36:07.269 , these numbers changed. The numbers changed too fewer interested students 00:36:07.469 --> 00:36:12.606 willing to work hard, willing to strive to learn and and all the rest. And 00:36:12.639 --> 00:36:17.497 there was much more indifference. I I think I used the language they 00:36:17.530 --> 00:36:23.416 became customers as opposed to participants in a in a in a struggle 00:36:23.449 --> 00:36:29.856 together. Um and it became harder and harder and there was more and more 00:36:29.889 --> 00:36:36.927 complaining to me personally. And uh huh about these cards because they 00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:41.497 were unfair and the harassment. And 00:36:41.530 --> 00:36:45.896 I remember one young lady, 00:36:45.929 --> 00:36:50.497 very pleasant student in general, but after the semester was over, I 00:36:50.530 --> 00:36:53.956 happened to run into her in the hall. And I, you know, I I made some 00:36:53.989 --> 00:36:58.146 comments. She said, you know something and I said, no, what, what are you 00:36:58.179 --> 00:37:05.137 saying? She said you terrified me with your cards. And I I that really it 00:37:05.170 --> 00:37:09.657 was a hurtful comment. I didn't say anything to her. It was heartfelt, it 00:37:09.690 --> 00:37:16.137 wasn't the intent, but it to say terrified. That's just such a strong word. 00:37:16.170 --> 00:37:21.967 Um, but it was while they were not used to it and and they were not 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:26.867 flexible enough to respond to it. You know, all they have to do is 00:37:26.900 --> 00:37:32.796 essentially be prepared, pay attention, do their work. Uh, another thing I 00:37:32.829 --> 00:37:38.537 I'd used during the years as, as I tried to motivate and encourage 00:37:38.570 --> 00:37:45.506 students was instead of grading a paper. I would I, and this is one thing 00:37:45.539 --> 00:37:49.896 I did throughout my years, I 00:37:49.929 --> 00:37:57.617 Probably 98% of the time graded all the work in all my classes. So I 00:37:57.650 --> 00:38:03.106 created exams. I graded homework problems and that that doesn't mean just 00:38:03.139 --> 00:38:08.296 the answer. They were all red. They were comments were made about the 00:38:08.329 --> 00:38:13.267 english about the writing about the correctness of the mathematics, about 00:38:13.300 --> 00:38:17.836 the answer about the conclusion. And of course I spent hours and hours 00:38:17.869 --> 00:38:24.367 doing this. I'm not sure it was appreciated. It's not the norm. If you if 00:38:24.400 --> 00:38:29.626 you look around the college, even today, you'll see outside of doors, 00:38:29.659 --> 00:38:33.057 you'll see stacks of stuff and if you look at it, there will be a 00:38:33.090 --> 00:38:37.546 checkmark at the bottom for the answer. Well, the problem is today, 00:38:37.579 --> 00:38:42.106 solution manuals for textbooks are are available. You can get them on the 00:38:42.139 --> 00:38:47.606 web. You can, you know this homework from that in that perspective uh 00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:52.057 doesn't really mean a great deal. They they copy from the Solution manual. 00:38:52.090 --> 00:38:56.177 And of course an experienced teacher picks this up immediately. But what 00:38:56.210 --> 00:39:02.267 I did is I I required that they actually use words. I they it wasn't just 00:39:02.300 --> 00:39:07.146 a series of mathematical steps, but it was why did you do this? And what 00:39:07.179 --> 00:39:10.686 was the reason for this step? And why did you start at that point? And 00:39:10.719 --> 00:39:16.267 those sorts of things, what I expected. Uh I think it was good for them 00:39:16.300 --> 00:39:19.997 and again, it was something I think they may be appreciated a bit more 00:39:20.030 --> 00:39:24.787 after the fact than than during the time. But to get back to the this 00:39:24.820 --> 00:39:29.916 homework, what I used to do is if they met a certain level, I would just 00:39:29.949 --> 00:39:35.276 grade it and the grades are very simple on a homework problem. You've 00:39:35.309 --> 00:39:42.847 either got a zero, you got a half, you gotta one, you've got a 1.5. And on 00:39:42.880 --> 00:39:50.880 rare rare occasions you've got a two. And that's of course A B C D E U C. 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:55.736 And I was telling that that that's essentially what we're talking about 00:39:55.769 --> 00:40:01.026 here. But if the if the work was was too bad, what I would do is I would 00:40:01.059 --> 00:40:06.086 instead of putting a number one of those numbers, I would put an R. On the 00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:11.186 paper. And that meant that at the next class they had to return a new 00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:17.706 version of that assignment. And this is a truly hated this. It was it was 00:40:17.739 --> 00:40:24.597 unbelievable the negative response. Um I got about that, but there was no 00:40:24.630 --> 00:40:30.626 great penalty. You know, the the new the new version was graded as if the 00:40:30.659 --> 00:40:36.106 other one didn't exist. And for many students it did help because they had 00:40:36.139 --> 00:40:39.977 they had the help of my comments that I made on the first version and they 00:40:40.010 --> 00:40:43.057 could of course call talk to their their their friends about it if they 00:40:43.090 --> 00:40:48.486 wanted to. And so I continued to use that for for several years. But then 00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:53.586 it got to be too big a burden. I was essentially uh increasing the 00:40:53.619 --> 00:40:58.037 teaching load on myself and not only that, but keeping track of this. You 00:40:58.070 --> 00:41:01.727 know, you have to if you give somebody an r, well you got to keep track 00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:05.986 that you gave that are and, and it wasn't and they get it back to me and 00:41:06.019 --> 00:41:11.477 the logistics of that become very difficult. Um, in spite of some of the 00:41:11.510 --> 00:41:14.566 negative comments and working them hard and everything, I think you 00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.727 received some recognition for your teacher. I did receive some recognition. 00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:24.747 I I I think for the mature students, uh, or the ones who really cared. I 00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:30.217 think they enjoyed what I was trying to do. I always tried to explain why 00:41:30.250 --> 00:41:34.657 I do these things that that, you know, why do I have the cards? Why do I, 00:41:34.690 --> 00:41:38.936 why did I use this arm method? Why do I grade the homework personally 00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:43.876 Instead of giving it to a greater who, who may or may not do a good job. 00:41:43.909 --> 00:41:48.267 And not only that, but there was there was typically insufficient 00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:51.977 resources for a, 00:41:52.010 --> 00:41:56.367 a reasonable number of hours to grade the class. You know, if you get say 00:41:56.400 --> 00:42:03.907 40 students in a class and you assign uh, oh, I don't know, 345 problems a 00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:09.186 week. You think about what that all takes if you expect the person to 00:42:09.219 --> 00:42:15.217 grade carefully. Now the times I did get a greater was when I was in the 00:42:15.250 --> 00:42:20.876 Dean's office and Associate Deans office because I, I just, I mean I was, 00:42:20.909 --> 00:42:25.416 you know that how much time I spent there. In fact I used to get calls 00:42:25.449 --> 00:42:30.626 from you about restaurants. Uh, you were always there when I left. They 00:42:30.659 --> 00:42:36.017 were still there. But so, but there were, there were times when I just had 00:42:36.050 --> 00:42:40.657 to use a grater and not many. But, and it was, I always picked the best 00:42:40.690 --> 00:42:45.566 students who normally would not 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:51.106 do this. But they did it for me because they knew that it was an honor 00:42:51.139 --> 00:42:56.586 that I was asking them to do this because they knew I normally did it all 00:42:56.619 --> 00:43:01.477 myself. And so they typically did a good job and, and they was, they were 00:43:01.510 --> 00:43:04.767 proud to do that. 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:12.166 I remember various awards I got. I was 00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:17.827 at one point I received a award for the outstanding teacher for the period 00:43:17.860 --> 00:43:23.847 in 1960 to 1980 But I didn't come here till 1960 for, so I thought that 00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:29.057 was pretty good. And I got some kind of plaque or parchment, you know, and 00:43:29.090 --> 00:43:34.316 , and I got these things regularly. I, I think that I, I did make an 00:43:34.349 --> 00:43:42.349 impression on many of the students and and positive impressions. I, 00:43:42.699 --> 00:43:50.699 I took my responsibility seriously. Ah, I tried very hard to understand 00:43:52.449 --> 00:44:00.356 the issues that they had. Uh, I would think nothing of repeating a lecture 00:44:00.389 --> 00:44:07.327 when there was a, ah, a group that was, was having trouble and it was 00:44:07.360 --> 00:44:10.626 clear they were having trouble. Well, we can do it again And I try to do 00:44:10.659 --> 00:44:14.956 it in a different way. You know, and, and I did things like that. 00:44:14.989 --> 00:44:22.557 Typically my classes I never got as far into a book as most people did. 00:44:22.590 --> 00:44:29.566 But what I did do I I I think the idea of education and this is not I wish 00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:35.376 I had thought of this these words but it's not to cover material, it's to 00:44:35.409 --> 00:44:42.097 uncover material and there's a there's a subtle difference there that uh I 00:44:42.130 --> 00:44:47.856 believed in and I and I wanted to use that. I 00:44:47.889 --> 00:44:55.086 I continued trying to do research and I did do some uh nice research. Um I 00:44:55.119 --> 00:45:02.287 was never a superstar researcher but I but I did do research, I certainly 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:08.626 did a lot of research with paul paul nitze who you know and we were I 00:45:08.659 --> 00:45:14.947 still talked to him several times a week uh since he left A. S. U. Uh one 00:45:14.980 --> 00:45:20.097 of the several people that that came and left and that was that was bad. 00:45:20.130 --> 00:45:25.396 It was it was it was difficult. There's there are some problems with 00:45:25.429 --> 00:45:31.767 retaining faculty keeping them here. It's unfortunate but there are 00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:37.697 reasons for that. The thing is there's always in this current market 00:45:37.730 --> 00:45:42.736 there's always people that are willing to to come come. You know? And and 00:45:42.769 --> 00:45:45.557 uh 00:45:45.590 --> 00:45:49.296 and I think dr knight cell would be somebody in my next question. Was 00:45:49.329 --> 00:45:53.537 there a mentor colleague and I ask you who most inspired you think 00:45:53.570 --> 00:45:57.617 definitely he's one well he was a colleague not a mentor. I in fact I 00:45:57.650 --> 00:46:04.066 mentored him because he came he came several years after I came and I 00:46:04.099 --> 00:46:10.657 mentored him, I particularly mentored him about about teaching. Uh He was 00:46:10.690 --> 00:46:15.307 he was a good teacher, he's a he's a conscientious teacher, he's now an 00:46:15.340 --> 00:46:23.340 administrator teacher at Georgia tech and he's doing very well. Um But 00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:33.146 s. U over time moved in the direction where 00:46:33.179 --> 00:46:37.356 there's a lot of people that would not agree with this statement but where 00:46:37.389 --> 00:46:42.997 the important thing, particularly in subjects like science and engineering 00:46:43.030 --> 00:46:49.336 that you strive for sponsored research because the money coming in is very 00:46:49.369 --> 00:46:57.186 nice and it's in some minds a measure of how good you are, but you still 00:46:57.219 --> 00:47:01.066 have to teach you know this this is still a public institution, you have 00:47:01.099 --> 00:47:05.447 to teach now, you don't teach as much as I taught in my early days but you 00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:12.376 do have to teach and I I mentored him in the sense of that, he was 00:47:12.409 --> 00:47:16.077 conscientious, he wanted to do a good job teaching, but teaching is the 00:47:16.110 --> 00:47:22.046 kind of activity that will take all the time you put into it. I mean it 00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:27.646 you can always say I gotta make this part of this class a little better 00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:31.436 and I've got to make this part a little better and I got to change this 00:47:31.469 --> 00:47:36.876 and you can go on and on and on in that spirit and of course you just 00:47:36.909 --> 00:47:40.836 can't do that and what I mentored him and I would say that to any young 00:47:40.869 --> 00:47:46.347 faculty member, you've got to decide on a reasonable amount of time that 00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:51.986 you are going to put into your teaching and stick to that. And if it turns 00:47:52.019 --> 00:47:57.416 out not to be enough or it's too much well you adjust but don't don't give 00:47:57.449 --> 00:48:02.066 it all the time it needs because that's too much for the other things. And 00:48:02.099 --> 00:48:07.787 when it comes down to promotion time you're not gonna get promoted because 00:48:07.820 --> 00:48:14.217 you're a good teacher. I must say that I was promoted. My first promotion 00:48:14.250 --> 00:48:18.316 was because I was a good teacher but that would not happen today. That 00:48:18.349 --> 00:48:23.247 would just wouldn't Um your career spanned 40 years. 40 years. Yes. Yes. 00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:27.626 You I was 12 years old when I started. And for you, what years during that 00:48:27.659 --> 00:48:33.436 time span would you say? We're a sus best like that just felt 00:48:33.469 --> 00:48:41.469 um Well I I think the best years I do not mean any criticism of of 00:48:41.619 --> 00:48:47.097 individuals, but I think the best years were the years during the Rolling 00:48:47.130 --> 00:48:54.526 Hayden era. And then and the Dean as Dean of Engineering. Roland Hayden 00:48:54.559 --> 00:49:02.559 was not a diplomat in his early years. He was a very 00:49:02.860 --> 00:49:07.986 high strung individual. I can still remember him firing one of the 00:49:08.019 --> 00:49:12.467 department chairs at that time. We had departments in the in the hallway, 00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:15.876 in the G wing on the first floor of the G wing yelling down the hall, 00:49:15.909 --> 00:49:20.456 You're fired. And of course he didn't mean that you know it was just just 00:49:20.489 --> 00:49:27.646 that. But he he stirred things up. He got he got people more interested 00:49:27.679 --> 00:49:33.206 and more involved in research. He expected them to do it whereas before 00:49:33.239 --> 00:49:37.986 faculty members did it but they did it because that was part of their 00:49:38.019 --> 00:49:41.827 culture. You know that they were they were educated to do research. I mean 00:49:41.860 --> 00:49:47.287 PhD is a research degree and and so they wanted to do research. But now 00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:51.117 the pressure was on not only are you gonna do research but you're gonna do 00:49:51.150 --> 00:49:57.387 research. That's good enough to be recognized by NSF or the D. O. E. Or 00:49:57.420 --> 00:50:01.836 somebody General Motors or you know whoever it might be that to give you 00:50:01.869 --> 00:50:06.356 money to do something and you're gonna you're gonna put students in these 00:50:06.389 --> 00:50:11.077 positions working on this stuff and in helping their education. And this 00:50:11.110 --> 00:50:14.756 was you know normal. I mean this was not an unusual thing I think 00:50:14.789 --> 00:50:21.427 sometimes now it has probably gone too far. I think there is there is uh 00:50:21.460 --> 00:50:29.460 given the the nature of S. U. I think there's there's too much emphasis on 00:50:30.150 --> 00:50:36.887 research given the need to educate large numbers of students uh many of 00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:44.920 whom are not necessarily well prepared for college level work. I think uh 00:50:46.889 --> 00:50:52.836 the educational system in in uh Arizona I find it very unusual. My 00:50:52.869 --> 00:50:58.307 Children of course were all educated here, I have grandchildren who are in 00:50:58.340 --> 00:51:03.666 the various school systems and that's gonna be starting and I have a 00:51:03.699 --> 00:51:06.997 granddaughter who is going to be starting and she just heard yesterday 00:51:07.030 --> 00:51:11.916 that she's going to be in barrett. So she's very happy with that And and 00:51:11.949 --> 00:51:16.316 we are too, she's a good kid and I and she's heard a lot about working 00:51:16.349 --> 00:51:21.626 hard and doing well in school, not for me but for her sake. And I think 00:51:21.659 --> 00:51:26.157 she is going to try and she's going to do a good job. We have just a few 00:51:26.190 --> 00:51:29.296 minutes left and could you fill us in on what you've been doing since you 00:51:29.329 --> 00:51:37.329 retired? What have I been doing? Well, I, I retired after I finished the 00:51:37.860 --> 00:51:45.646 the accreditation thing in 2002 or three in the spring of 2003 I guess it 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:53.546 wasn't and but I, I continued for another year and then I retired. That 00:51:53.579 --> 00:51:58.646 was a time when the university had this program where they essentially 00:51:58.679 --> 00:52:04.197 would give you a year's salary and I took advantage of that. I really, I 00:52:04.230 --> 00:52:11.747 really, uh, I wasn't quite ready to retire, but I didn't want to be one of 00:52:11.780 --> 00:52:18.816 these guys to stick around and be in the way, you know, so to speak. Um, 00:52:18.849 --> 00:52:23.166 there becomes a time when you, you are, you are more than an elder 00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:27.146 statesman and and they had done, you know, what more could I have done? I 00:52:27.179 --> 00:52:31.967 was, so I had been associate dean and successful. I will say that the 00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:38.387 successful associate dean, I was an interim dean and I did, I did well in 00:52:38.420 --> 00:52:44.467 that position. I did, I ran the accreditation effort and you you were not 00:52:44.500 --> 00:52:49.316 working on that too. You know, the big job that university was accredited. 00:52:49.349 --> 00:52:57.349 So you know, um I they had a, I didn't write this in in my comments that 00:52:59.099 --> 00:53:06.736 I gave you earlier, but they established a an award in my name that is 00:53:06.769 --> 00:53:14.769 successful and now and is working two, it's an award financial award too. 00:53:15.349 --> 00:53:19.517 Uh faculty members who 00:53:19.550 --> 00:53:24.907 I think we're that we're trying to do the things that I tried to do. They 00:53:24.940 --> 00:53:29.017 were they tried to be successful, they were successful in teaching and 00:53:29.050 --> 00:53:34.017 research and service and so you know, things were there have been a lot of 00:53:34.050 --> 00:53:37.467 nice things that have happened here for traveling, doing a few things and 00:53:37.500 --> 00:53:42.356 I think you're also working on a textbook. Yes. Um the books that she will 00:53:42.389 --> 00:53:48.856 never be finished. Um yeah, I've, I've, through the years I've had an 00:53:48.889 --> 00:53:55.227 opportunity to review many textbooks and of course I taught for many years. 00:53:55.260 --> 00:54:01.807 So I kind of saw how the field fluid mechanics, uh what was evolving and 00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:09.840 I always, I was never totally satisfied with other people's work. Ah there 00:54:09.960 --> 00:54:17.106 were many good people who wrote books, but there's a market a certain 00:54:17.139 --> 00:54:21.796 expectation of the market and the many of these books are essentially the 00:54:21.829 --> 00:54:25.486 same thing. They're just, you know, there will be some tweaks here and 00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:31.006 there, but they are essentially all trying to write the same book and I 00:54:31.039 --> 00:54:34.387 think it's not the right book. It's not the correct book. It's not the 00:54:34.420 --> 00:54:38.456 book that is needed at this particular time. So I'm trying to write 00:54:38.489 --> 00:54:42.376 something different and of course that that's hard to do because there are 00:54:42.409 --> 00:54:49.106 no models. I'm creating my own model as we go along. So I I write pages 00:54:49.139 --> 00:54:55.617 and then I throw them away and I write pages and I throw them away. Um but 00:54:55.650 --> 00:55:01.137 it's good for me. It keeps my mind active, uh keeps me away from my wife 00:55:01.170 --> 00:55:07.046 at times because I I still have an office and I go there and I sit and I 00:55:07.079 --> 00:55:14.787 think and I write and it's it's good for me intellectually. And uh 00:55:14.820 --> 00:55:19.296 and I I but as I said, it might never be finished, but that doesn't bother 00:55:19.329 --> 00:55:24.436 me. I'm doing it really for myself. Wonderful. And just a wrap up, you and 00:55:24.469 --> 00:55:29.146 I have had lots of talks about student changes in the student body over 00:55:29.179 --> 00:55:32.526 the years and you've been here a long, long time. And I wonder if you want 00:55:32.559 --> 00:55:37.407 to finish up with some comments on that. The students have changed as the 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:41.497 society has changed the the 00:55:41.530 --> 00:55:48.247 in in his early years. Uh there was an element uh I've already kind of 00:55:48.280 --> 00:55:52.206 talked about the different groups in a in a class, but there was an 00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:57.546 element of that George bickley had arranged. It was called the Aphids 00:55:57.579 --> 00:56:03.456 program. It was military officers, Air force officers who came to s you to 00:56:03.489 --> 00:56:09.316 get a degree at that time. The military was requiring their pilots to be 00:56:09.349 --> 00:56:14.986 have degrees. And if they didn't they were sent to S. U. And and maybe 00:56:15.019 --> 00:56:19.876 other places, I don't know. But the issue was a desirable place because at 00:56:19.909 --> 00:56:24.166 that time we had two air force bases, there were opportunities for them to 00:56:24.199 --> 00:56:29.816 fly. And uh these individuals, their career was on the line, they were 00:56:29.849 --> 00:56:35.597 going to get that degree in in this time period no matter what because if 00:56:35.630 --> 00:56:39.427 they didn't they were out And so they came and there weren't, you know, 00:56:39.460 --> 00:56:44.767 there'd be maybe three or four of them in a given class of 20 or 30, but 00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:50.947 they set the tone. They could not be beat as far as working hard and being 00:56:50.980 --> 00:56:54.577 involved. They were also more mature. They were older than the typical 00:56:54.610 --> 00:57:00.947 student. And they they lifted the levels of of classes that of course as 00:57:00.980 --> 00:57:07.026 government programs do win away when the program stopped. Um but that that 00:57:07.059 --> 00:57:12.697 element was lost. And then there was just this general feeling of of the 00:57:12.730 --> 00:57:19.606 students that has has changed. I think we we all see the the numbers in 00:57:19.639 --> 00:57:25.166 the in the press about where where this elementary and secondary education 00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:29.796 of the United States is compared to other parts of the world. Uh not all 00:57:29.829 --> 00:57:37.829 students fit that, but many of them do. And so you have a general, I don't 00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:42.546 want to say dumbing down. Um, indifference is maybe a better word there. 00:57:42.579 --> 00:57:47.316 They're not turned on by learning. They're not excited by, by things as 00:57:47.349 --> 00:57:53.247 much. Um, and it's hard to, to change that. And I think many of the 00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:58.256 faculty, uh, here and elsewhere, there were certainly not alone. I told 00:57:58.289 --> 00:58:03.157 you about my friend, you know, my friend paul Night cell and I, we talked 00:58:03.190 --> 00:58:06.617 about that very thing at Georgia tech and Georgia tech is considered an 00:58:06.650 --> 00:58:13.347 elite school. There's just an element that is not really interested in 00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:17.887 learning. And we're talking about a subject like engineering, which is 00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:22.637 difficult, demanding and you need this, this commitment by the students 00:58:22.670 --> 00:58:27.666 and you don't get that anymore. Of course, the administration is wanting 00:58:27.699 --> 00:58:33.166 to keep the students happy. I hate to say that, but I think that's the 00:58:33.199 --> 00:58:36.997 case. And so there's a conflict and of course the individual faculty 00:58:37.030 --> 00:58:41.986 members caught in between, There's no way I would get a teaching award. Uh 00:58:42.019 --> 00:58:48.936 , now, whereas I was, I had a list of them in the old days. So that's a 00:58:48.969 --> 00:58:54.887 difficult thing. I don't see how to resolve this issue. I think there 00:58:54.920 --> 00:58:57.887 needs to be a, 00:58:57.920 --> 00:59:05.236 someone needs to be the boss or the standard Center for Education and what 00:59:05.269 --> 00:59:10.887 I think about make the standards high to get into the universities. 00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:18.686 That is going to require everybody in the community colleges, high schools 00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:24.287 and the elementary schools too do the same. And I don't think we have that. 00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:28.227 Everybody kinds of kind of does their own thing. And then standards are 00:59:28.260 --> 00:59:33.296 adjusted, for example, you can get an engineering degree now For 120 00:59:33.329 --> 00:59:40.217 credits When I first came here, it was closer to 140. Now, how do you, can 00:59:40.250 --> 00:59:46.867 you Intellectually say that the student who completed 120 credits is as 00:59:46.900 --> 00:59:51.686 prepared as the student who completed nearly 140. 00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:55.166 That's a tough one for me. And I'm not smart enough to know the answer, 00:59:55.199 --> 00:59:59.836 but I think I'm bothered by the fact that these sorts of things are not 00:59:59.869 --> 01:00:03.017 discussed. 01:00:03.050 --> 01:00:07.796 And when I was growing up going to college was I was told it was a 01:00:07.829 --> 01:00:12.947 privilege. And now it seems that it's more kind of a right. And so it's it 01:00:12.980 --> 01:00:17.896 to have to change to meet the student demand and, and personality is a 01:00:17.929 --> 01:00:22.677 challenge. Well, that's, there's, there's a lot of, a lot of students that 01:00:22.710 --> 01:00:28.256 get that. It's unfortunate. It makes it harder. Makes it not as much, not 01:00:28.289 --> 01:00:31.816 as rewarding as it used to be. Is there anything we didn't cover that you 01:00:31.849 --> 01:00:36.396 want to make sure, you know, I'm not sure. I wonder, we've certainly 01:00:36.429 --> 01:00:41.477 covered a lot. I hope we've uncovered something. Thanks. 01:00:41.510 --> 01:00:47.256 I've got a few comments here. Okay. You and I have something in common 01:00:47.289 --> 01:00:49.276 with 01:00:49.309 --> 01:00:54.666 12 Years of Nuns. University of Michigan. Uh, and I was one of those 01:00:54.699 --> 01:00:58.477 aphids students that was here, 01:00:58.510 --> 01:01:06.126 uh, back just before you got here, I left, but You did mention that you 01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:12.626 went in the army in 1958. Actually, that was incorrect. I went, I after I 01:01:12.659 --> 01:01:16.597 said that I, I was thinking I was incorrect. I went into the army in the 01:01:16.630 --> 01:01:19.776 in 1954. 01:01:19.809 --> 01:01:25.617 Okay. And I got out of the army in 56 and got married in 58. Okay. Well 01:01:25.650 --> 01:01:28.767 that's, I was gonna say you might have a problem with your wife, right? 01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:34.747 Yeah, yeah. She, she, Yeah, she would, she, she keeps me straight on. So 01:01:34.780 --> 01:01:41.117 many things. We've been married 50 plus years and still argue every day. 01:01:41.150 --> 01:01:49.150 Um, but I would be lost without her and she was just a, a great help to me 01:01:51.019 --> 01:01:58.106 during those years when, when life was not as good as it is today. You 01:01:58.139 --> 01:02:02.227 need somebody at home watching things there while you're paying attention 01:02:02.260 --> 01:02:09.206 to other things. Uh, some of the names I might mention, you might comment 01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:14.566 on, You did mention the engineering labs and what was going on out there. 01:02:14.599 --> 01:02:20.017 You must have spent a lot of time out there with PhD students 01:02:20.050 --> 01:02:26.947 were some of those lab people that were very helpful. Um, it was just the 01:02:26.980 --> 01:02:34.307 greatest guy in the world. He was an old navy chief and you have to let 01:02:34.340 --> 01:02:38.247 him chew on you occasionally if you did something that he viewed as stupid 01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:44.347 , but I didn't mind that. I mean he was always helpful to me. I remember 01:02:44.380 --> 01:02:51.427 one time I was working on a project with a student for what was then air 01:02:51.460 --> 01:02:59.117 research and we were doing some experiments and we we because of the where 01:02:59.150 --> 01:03:02.287 we had we needed a special facility and it was in one of the civil 01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:08.407 engineering labs that's that's now long since gone. But uh we were going 01:03:08.440 --> 01:03:11.316 to work on a weekend because that was the only time we could we could get 01:03:11.349 --> 01:03:16.486 in and he gave us a key to his machine shop so that we could have access 01:03:16.519 --> 01:03:21.907 to any tools that we might need to get this experiment going. Now I was 01:03:21.940 --> 01:03:26.586 that was just you know, I didn't ask for that, you know, but he gave it to 01:03:26.619 --> 01:03:31.477 us and and I thought that for Jim that was a big thing. Jim was a great 01:03:31.510 --> 01:03:35.526 guy, he had a lot of enemies but he was just doing his job and he did it 01:03:35.559 --> 01:03:40.486 very well. And so I went through the engineering corps and ted Allen, he 01:03:40.519 --> 01:03:47.427 was thrown, he was thrown erasers. Yeah. Ed Wallace ahead for partial 01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:50.467 difference equations 01:03:50.500 --> 01:03:56.217 but jim Turnbow Jill. Turnbow was a guy that was set the standard for 01:03:56.250 --> 01:04:02.526 discipline. Jim, jim Turnbow was the only professor I I've ever known that 01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:08.256 could draw a perfect circle freon, his lectures, 01:04:08.289 --> 01:04:13.847 I used to occasionally, as the circumstances would would allow it. You 01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:19.157 find yourself in a coming into a class after 01:04:19.190 --> 01:04:24.227 a gym Turnbow or somebody like that and so you can see the lecture and 01:04:24.260 --> 01:04:28.666 jim's were always just, I mean they were, they were just amazing. I mean 01:04:28.699 --> 01:04:32.936 it was Jim was a good guy. Jim was, Jim was one of the, one of the 01:04:32.969 --> 01:04:36.316 teachers, You know, that's what he did, He was a teacher, but he was an 01:04:36.349 --> 01:04:41.747 excellent teacher and he and he required, he required performance from the 01:04:41.780 --> 01:04:47.336 students. I don't think you can do that today. I just do not. I mean, I 01:04:47.369 --> 01:04:52.827 just don't think the atmosphere is the same and you're you're more apt to 01:04:52.860 --> 01:04:57.456 be criticized than you are congratulated for for what you've been able to 01:04:57.489 --> 01:05:04.557 accomplish with the students. Jim, Turnbow dictates worth Warren Rice. 01:05:04.590 --> 01:05:10.289 These are names from that era. People are right,so