WEBVTT

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 by myself. Um and the date today is monday january 9th of 2000 and six.

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And I'm pam Stevenson and manny Garcia
is our photographer. We're doing a

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interview for the living history video
project of Arizona State University

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retirees association and we're at the
visitor center at CSU at rural and

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Apache standard building. That may be
torn down soon. And I'd like to have

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you introduced yourself if you could
give me your full name? Well, I'm

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Jack Russell nelson. I go by Russ
nelson. And what more do you want to

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start at the beginning? You can tell
me when and where you were born?

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Portland Oregon December

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18, 1929.

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Um why don't you tell me a little bit
about your growing up years? Did you

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grow up in Oregon? No, Southern
California From 1932 Until 1940. My

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parents moved to Utah in 19 I'm sorry
1937. We lived there til 1940 and

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then returned and I finished growing
up in California and lived there

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until, Let's see, I think I moved away
in 19

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hmm, 19

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60 59,

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and moved to Michigan

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California. I lived in Glendale almost
all the time. And was there a

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reason why your parents moved so much
or? Well, I don't think they really

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moved a lot.

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Yeah, they moved a couple of times.
Well my father was ill briefly and he

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found work in southern California in
the depression era. And stayed on

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there for until He moved away. He
didn't move until 19 59. What did your

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father? He was a hospital
administrator most of those years.

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Um Growing up in in California, were
you a good student in school? Not

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particularly.

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Were you active in sports or? No, no,
I was not a robust child and I was

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not particularly adept at sports
activities. I enjoyed being outdoors, I

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liked hiking, but I didn't do much in
playing baseball or things like that

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because I wasn't very good at it and
had been prevented from it by health

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situation

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as a boy growing up. What what were
your plans of, what did you want to be

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when you grew up older?

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You know, that's that's not the kind
of question that is easy to answer. I

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don't recall that I had

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Consistent aspirations at one. wanted
to be a chef and I got over that and

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then I I worked in a print shop during
the time I was in high school and I

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thought seriously about being a
printer. I wanted to print High quality

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one of a kind books and I found when I
looked into it seriously, when I

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was in college that there was a
struggling industry for making fine books

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and that there were very few find
bookmakers who made a successful living.

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There were a few in san Francisco, I
did a survey in san Francisco to

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find out what the prospects were and I
found that in a city with literally

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hundreds of small print shops that
printed fine books, That there were

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only two or 3 that were making enough
money to make a living And that the

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remaining people in that industry were
right on the verge of poverty. And

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I decided that that was not going to
work for me. So in college I studied

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business and particularly accounting
and then aimed for a job in that

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field. And where did you go to
college? I went to pacific Union College.

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It's a religious school in northern
California on a hill that used to be

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a volcano. And the colleges actually
actually situated in the depression

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left when the volcano quit being
active

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pam. Let's stop this for one second.
There's some sort of yes,

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well a lot what you need is triple
glass

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is quite frequently on this street.
Okay, pammy. Okay. We were talking

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about your education. Was it always
assumed growing up that you were going

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to go to college? Oh, I think that was
one of the aspirations my parents

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had. My father went to two years of
college and that was quite a bit at

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the time. He went to school and I
think he came to recognize that the

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people who tended to get the farthest
were the people who went to school.

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And so he and mother always encouraged
me to go to college and I never

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seriously thought I had an option. So
I went to college and your family

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was able to afford it, that wasn't it.
Uh college was cheap in those days

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, relatively speaking. And yes, uh
they pretty much paid my way through

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undergraduate school. And how did you
choose? That must have been a fairly

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small school. My folks gave me two
choices, both religious schools and

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that one was farther away from home.

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Okay. And you said you sounded like
you were interested in the arts with

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printing books as well as a matter of
fact I was. And while my major was

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in business, my minor, the school had
a semi vocational program set of

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programs as well. And I worked in the
print shop. I had worked in the

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print shop when I was in high school
and had become fairly skilled in the

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printing trade. And I continued that
when I was in college and I you had

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to have a major and a minor my minor
was printing. And I took it from a

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wonderful teacher whose name was
George J's, who was a printer, but he was

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also a kind of philosopher and poet
and he wrote poetry and wrote

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philosophical pieces in his spare time
and was a very thoughtful man and

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well

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versed in the history of printing as
well as in the technology of printing.

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And that was probably the most
memorable side of my education there. And

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I thought of going on there. There was
an advanced program at one of the

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eastern schools, one of the technical
schools in the east and I thought of

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going there. But that in the end, that
didn't seem like the right thing

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because I got married at the end of my
junior year to the same woman I'm

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still married to. And so I realized
that I needed to be able to make a

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living. And printing was probably not
the way to do it. I finished up in

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accounting and immediately went to
work in one of the local hospitals as

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an accountant.

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And that probably goes back to your
father having been, uh, well, my

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father did that. Yes. And I'm sure
that influenced my choice. Whether he

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had something to do with my getting
the job would be hard to say.

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What was that? I finished college in
1952.

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And so you grew up during World War
Two. Yes.

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Remember I certainly do. Um We lived
in southern California and you may

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recall that there were concerns about
japanese air raids and at night we

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would draw the, the curtains with
heavy blankets over the windows to

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prevent light from going out. And we
had frequent air raid sirens going

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off, but nothing ever came of it.
Although there were reports that maybe

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japanese aircraft came close to La.
And I know they, that the submarine,

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they had a couple of small submarines
that shot some

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shot into California coast up by
ventura, but we never actually saw any

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japanese aircraft, but there were
patrols in the sky much of the time

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during the war and we had a kind of
wartime way of life with rationing and

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so on. But you know that's natural
when you're in a in a fight.

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Did you ever consider joining the
military? No. Because I was rejected

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being four f

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given that I had heart problems.

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So you married in in college? Was that
a big decision That you think that

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marriage is always a big decision?

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Yeah. And we we

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we talked about getting married at the
end of our sophomore year and I

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would have had to have my parents
permission and we decided it would be

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more independent action if we waited a
year and could do it on our own. So

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we did. And we married about a week
after the junior year was finished and

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then went back and both finished the
following year. And you were quite

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young then. How old were you? Mm Hmm.
It must have been 22.

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So once you got out of school your
first job was in the hospital. I was an

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accountant in a hospital. And it was
it was a very interesting situation

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because I came in as a bookkeeper and
I kept the night books so that every

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morning patients could get an updated
bill if they wish to leave the

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hospital. And there were it was a
small hospital. It was a small office.

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There were three of us who were
accountants in the office and the person

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immediately above me got a job. So I
moved into that position and then the

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boss left. So when I was 23 I was the
chief accountant and chief financial

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officer of this hospital, which I
think surprised a lot of people myself

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included. Did you plan for that to be
your career?

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Well, no, but it it was what was
available and it fit my background and so

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I was happy doing it, but they didn't
want to pay me what they had paid my

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predecessors. And so I left after
about six months as the chief accountant

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and got a job as the administrator of
Modesto City Hospital in Modesto

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California and worked there For about
roughly two years.

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The fact that it was called Modesto
City Hospital doesn't mean it was a

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public hospital. It was a private
hospital operated by a physician and he

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had picked the perfect location in
Modesto because the public hospital,

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that is the, Not the charity hospital,
but a public hospital for the

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people in Modesto was located about 15
miles out of town. And people would

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rather go and the doctors would rather
serve patients near their offices

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than to go out of town. So the
hospital opened and was an immediate

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success. But for a whole lot of
reasons having to do with some bad

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financial planning prior to the time I
got there, I concluded I would be

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better off to leave. So I left and
about about two years after I started

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there and the hospital prospered
immensely and was very beneficial income

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producer for the owners. And I went to
graduate school

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at UCLA. Why did you decide to go back
to school? Well because I realized

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at the age of 23 or 24 that it was
very difficult to be the chief

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operating officer of a hospital
Working with doctors who were 45 and who

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were certainly powerful and um ah not
accustomed to dealing with

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youngsters in important positions. And
I decided that if I was going to be

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a successful long term hospital
administrator I needed to learn some more

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and get a little maturity. And I went
back, I went to college to U. C. L.

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A. For that purpose. And then shortly
after getting there was invited into

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the PhD program and became so
entranced with research and with the range

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of activities in the graduate program
that I abandoned the idea of going

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back to hospital administration and
charted a different course. And what

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was your major, well I was in the
business school and at U. C. L. A. And I

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was studying finance and I became
interested in the stock market and in

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how uh stock prices were set how they
operated. And I wrote a dissertation

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on a very small piece of that
question.

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Was that for your masters or no. That
was for a PhD. I got a masters on

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the way because I was expected.

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So how long were you then at at U. C.
L. A. What was your, I was there for

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? Years.

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And why did you leave there? Well
because I finished mm. Mhm. And it's

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sort of a natural thing to do.

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And we moved and I taught briefly in
michigan and that didn't seem to be

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the best environment for us. So we
moved to Minnesota and I had a

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wonderful time at the University of
Minnesota. I went as an instructor. I

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got my PhD awarded about six months.
Well four months after we arrived and

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then I became an assistant professor.
And eight years later I was promoted

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to full professor having gone up
through the ranks and while I was at at

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the University of Minnesota, I was
nominated to be an american council on

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Education fellow. And I interviewed
for that. And I was one of the people

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chosen in 19

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It must have been about 19

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70.

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No 1966

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uh to be an american council fellow.
And I had the opportunity through

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that program to work with a university
president of my choosing for a year.

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I chose to work for Arthur Fleming who
was president of the University of

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Oregon. He had been Secretary of
health, education and welfare. He was one

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of the architects of uh of national
pension plan, Social Security. And he

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had been a writer for what became U.
S. News and World report. So he had a

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very interesting background and I had
a wonderful year at the university

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should be able to get through that
intersection.

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Well anyway, I had a year. They're
working uh for Arthur Fleming and he's

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an extraordinary, he was an
extraordinary man of great accomplishments,

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great talent and I enjoyed working for
him. I went back to University of

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Minnesota because that was part of the
deal and didn't realize until later

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that they would have released me if I
had wanted to do something else. But

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I went back for a couple of years. And
in the meantime, Arthur Fleming

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moved to Mcallister College as
president and he felt that student

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government function in that college
was under

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played and wanted to create a
circumstance where they might have a more

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active and significant role in
advising the president and hired me to come

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part time for about a year and a half
to work with the students and the

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university and the college to develop
a plan for an enhanced role for

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students in the college. And I did
that and one thing sort of led to

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another. And about a year later, I was
invited to become part of the

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provost staff at the University of
colorado,

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moved to the University of colorado
and the person who hired me Fell ill

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three months after I arrived

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and left the office and I filled in as
provost for the remainder of that

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academic year until they appointed a
full time provost, regular provost

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and then was named vice president for
planning?

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And then it became apparent that the
administration that had come in a

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year before I got there was in trouble
and people started leaving the

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university and I had additional duties
assigned to me and within about two

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more years became ah uh executive vice
president of the university when a

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new president was named and I did that
for five years. Uh During the time

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that I was in that position, a plan
had been developed by a an intern who

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worked for me from university of from
michigan state University to develop

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to reorganize the university with
greater independence for the satellite

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campuses. And so the major duty that I
had during the time I was in that

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office was to carry out the
reorganization of the university that gave

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full campus standing to the medical
center, to the Denver campus and to

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the Colorado Springs campuses. And
then at that point a new president was

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appointed and there was a change again
in who was doing what to whom and

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a person came to be the chief officer
at the Boulder campus

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almost immediately became part of
president carter staff and ultimately

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resigned from the university and I was
appointed provost of the main

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campus, Acting and six months later
the the appointment was confirmed and

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I served as provost there for four
years before moving to Arizona State

00:21:47.049 --> 00:21:53.597
University as president. So that's my
academic history. What what caused

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you to come to Arizona State? How did
that come about? I knew that I

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wanted to be a university president,
uh the year that I came here or the

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year that I was chosen here. There
were five or six of us nationally who

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were looking at positions and there
were five or six positions and I think

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each of us ended up going to one of
those positions and it was, There were

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two or 3 of us who had interviewed
here and they offered me the job and I

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accepted it. Ah and

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no, I was in, yes, I was in colorado
at the time as chance. What do they

00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:47.617
call me Chancellor of the Boulder
campus. That's one of the things they

00:22:47.650 --> 00:22:51.367
called me. Well

00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:55.607
most of them you can't mention on
here,

00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:59.236
you were looking to move from there
more than you were looking to move to

00:22:59.269 --> 00:23:06.056
. I was looking to move up. I wanted
to become a president and uh I was

00:23:06.089 --> 00:23:13.286
looking at at presidencies and this
one looked as if it had considerable

00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:19.887
appeal, which in fact it did. And so I
I accepted when I when it was

00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:25.347
offered to me, what was it about a
issue that was appealing? The regions

00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:30.847
had just approved a new mission
statement for Arizona State University

00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:38.476
which was to transform itself into a
major research university and I had

00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:46.509
spent, well 20 years at that point in
major research universities, first

00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:51.336
at the University of Minnesota and
then subsequently at the university of

00:23:51.369 --> 00:23:53.367
colorado.

00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:58.117
And so I had, I felt that I knew
something about major research

00:23:58.150 --> 00:24:05.597
universities, about their special
needs, about their goals, about the

00:24:05.630 --> 00:24:12.197
kinds of work they did and that I
could make a contribution in helping

00:24:12.230 --> 00:24:19.276
asks you to transform itself from
primarily a teaching institution into a

00:24:19.309 --> 00:24:24.306
major research university. And I
thought there was a lot of work to do to

00:24:24.339 --> 00:24:27.107
make that transition.

00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:30.476
What was your first impression of a s
you the first time you've visited

00:24:30.509 --> 00:24:37.806
here? Oh, well that it was
overcrowded,

00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:45.839
that it was under supplied with
buildings that it had been treated um less

00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:50.707
well than its competitor in Tucson

00:24:50.740 --> 00:24:55.187
and that it was more likely to have
more students in the future than

00:24:55.220 --> 00:25:03.220
Tucson was because of the growth of
the metropolitan area and that we

00:25:04.150 --> 00:25:10.407
needed. I made a survey during the
first summer I was here and concluded

00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:17.377
that we were a million square feet
short of academic buildings. Well, that

00:25:17.410 --> 00:25:22.506
in itself is a major challenge to
anyone looking at an institution,

00:25:22.539 --> 00:25:27.457
particularly if the regions indicate
that they're interested in filling

00:25:27.490 --> 00:25:32.236
that gap. And if it seems likely that
the money would be available from

00:25:32.269 --> 00:25:38.107
the state to make it, make it happen.

00:25:38.140 --> 00:25:44.187
So I saw institution building and the
shift from a primarily teaching

00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:49.117
institution, undergraduate teaching
institution to one that had a More of

00:25:49.150 --> 00:25:53.736
a kind of balance that would be
appropriate in a, in a Pacific 10

00:25:53.769 --> 00:26:01.147
institution. And we had Only shortly
before become a PAC 10 member. That

00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:06.617
this would be a very interesting
challenge just for the record. What year

00:26:06.650 --> 00:26:11.207
was it that you came here, 1981

00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:16.597
june 1? Mm hmm. Have you been to
Arizona? Did you know what about Arizona

00:26:16.630 --> 00:26:24.630
? Before that? I had visited here a
couple of times in the 40s.

00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:30.607
I sang here at a wedding once for a
friend.

00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:34.667
And that was the extent of my
knowledge of Arizona until I paid two or

00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:40.687
three visits as a candidate.

00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:43.387
Well,

00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:49.226
it's long gone. Now the last time I
appeared publicly was in the

00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:57.259
centennial celebration where I did a
solo with the jazz band. Let's see.

00:26:57.380 --> 00:27:01.617
That was the jazz band that went to
Disneyland and I think it's still

00:27:01.650 --> 00:27:07.357
there. I hope someone recorded. Yes,
they did. Yes. And the recording is

00:27:07.390 --> 00:27:09.607
awful.

00:27:09.640 --> 00:27:14.707
I have a copy and we played it once.

00:27:14.740 --> 00:27:19.016
Well, what is it like to come into a
university that you're not that

00:27:19.049 --> 00:27:23.707
familiar with and to become the
president?

00:27:23.740 --> 00:27:29.986
Well, I think the first reaction that
I had was that the, the people on

00:27:30.019 --> 00:27:36.647
the campus, we're not very much aware
of the action of the regions and of

00:27:36.680 --> 00:27:42.336
the steps taken by the regions to come
to that action that would change

00:27:42.369 --> 00:27:47.407
the mission and the character and the
expectations.

00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:54.006
And I remember that I made a speech
the first time I met the full faculty

00:27:54.039 --> 00:28:00.147
about this, about the commission from
the regions and the, their adoption

00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:05.687
of a new master plan or master outlook
for what the university should

00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:12.576
become. And I think the faculty was
for the most part taken by surprise at

00:28:12.609 --> 00:28:19.377
that. And I talked about the
importance of research in a major University

00:28:19.410 --> 00:28:27.410
of Caliber of a PAC 10 school and I
had the impression that created some

00:28:27.410 --> 00:28:32.326
consternation among some members of
the faculty. And in retrospect, I

00:28:32.359 --> 00:28:37.536
understand that a bit better than I
did at the time. How large was a issue

00:28:37.569 --> 00:28:45.207
with that? Well. It was almost as
large as it is now. It was over 40,000,

00:28:45.240 --> 00:28:53.240
but it was on a campus that was
desperately short of instructional space

00:28:53.240 --> 00:28:58.907
where the library wasn't adequate to
accommodate the needs of the students.

00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:03.796
The building was small, the reading
rooms were small. I don't mean to

00:29:03.829 --> 00:29:09.397
denigrate them. They simply hadn't
kept pace with the number of students

00:29:09.430 --> 00:29:17.430
coming to the campus and I don't think
that the idea of becoming a a

00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:26.559
player more like UCLA for example, was
something that had been right in

00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:31.427
the front of the minds of the faculty.
There were a few people who were

00:29:31.460 --> 00:29:37.306
actively engaged in research a very
small number.

00:29:37.339 --> 00:29:44.717
Ah we didn't even make the list of
major recipients of grants from the

00:29:44.750 --> 00:29:52.207
federal government even as a footnote.
And so we had a long ways to go.

00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.207
And I think people uh

00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:02.006
we're not necessarily put off by the
change in expectations but they

00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:08.226
certainly were concerned about how to
do it with the campus facilities as

00:30:08.259 --> 00:30:15.556
they were and with no all of the
circumstances that go along with a

00:30:15.589 --> 00:30:23.306
particular set of programs and and
performance expectations in a

00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:28.457
university that's not a major research
institution. And so you have to

00:30:28.490 --> 00:30:35.726
sell all of that and it's not a sexy
package for most people. Speaking of

00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:40.756
that didn't a issue at that time. Its
reputation. I think among students

00:30:40.789 --> 00:30:45.637
and other people was more of a party
school than, well. I think that's one

00:30:45.670 --> 00:30:51.647
of the myths of higher education. Lots
of schools are rated as party

00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:56.637
schools. That doesn't mean it's their
major activity and I don't pay a

00:30:56.670 --> 00:31:00.887
great deal of attention to the ratings
that you get in. So in the

00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:05.107
magazines that make those kinds of
judgments about institutions, I'd

00:31:05.140 --> 00:31:12.127
rather they didn't. But it seems to me
that they overplay that

00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:16.847
significance. Colorado was another
school that always rated high as a

00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:23.097
party school. Well, there's certainly
a lot of high class parties that go

00:31:23.130 --> 00:31:30.447
on here and at colorado and at every
other school um high profile would be

00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:34.847
a better word instead of high class.
And there are certain consequences

00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:42.207
from that, but I don't ever think that
was a central activity here. Even

00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:47.576
though playboy like to talk about it.

00:31:47.609 --> 00:31:51.937
And you mentioned comparing it to U.
C. L. A. I actually went to U. C. L.

00:31:51.970 --> 00:31:58.806
A. Myself and I know that the
standards to get into UCLA were quite high

00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:03.157
and it was kind of a thought at the
time I was there if you couldn't make

00:32:03.190 --> 00:32:09.306
it so that you could always come over.
Well that's not unrealistic. One of

00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:14.086
the things that happened in California
that that made the environment for

00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:21.506
education in California what it is was
the major role played by clark Kerr.

00:32:21.539 --> 00:32:27.076
Clark Kerr wrote the master plan for
higher education in California. Now

00:32:27.109 --> 00:32:30.417
there were other people that helped
him but his name is on the report and

00:32:30.450 --> 00:32:38.450
he was clearly the moving force in
that Clark Kerr um Divided the schools

00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:46.867
in California. The public institutions
into three classes.

00:32:46.900 --> 00:32:52.707
There were the community colleges.
Anybody could go to community college,

00:32:52.740 --> 00:32:57.907
there were the state colleges. If your
academic performance were above a

00:32:57.940 --> 00:33:02.417
certain level You could go into the
state colleges. If you were in the top

00:33:02.450 --> 00:33:07.306
15% you could go to the University of
California.

00:33:07.339 --> 00:33:13.976
But the genius of the curve plan was
that if you started in community

00:33:14.009 --> 00:33:20.377
college and did well you could move up
in the system if you did really

00:33:20.410 --> 00:33:24.167
well in community college you could go
directly into the university of

00:33:24.200 --> 00:33:26.207
California.

00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:31.526
And if you made progress you could go
through the state college system and

00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:35.107
then into the university of
California.

00:33:35.140 --> 00:33:41.486
So that the the structure of that plan
didn't preclude anybody from going

00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.707
to the elite institutions,

00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:51.506
but it did set standards for those
institutions that kept out many people

00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:57.506
who in other states would be able to
go to the main state university.

00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:05.539
Well in California, there what 150
community colleges and there are 30

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:11.697
state colleges, All operated by the
state of California. And there are 13

00:34:11.730 --> 00:34:16.617
campuses of the University of
California In Arizona, there are three

00:34:16.650 --> 00:34:19.166
public campuses

00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:24.706
and a couple of them have, or maybe
all of us now have some satellites.

00:34:24.739 --> 00:34:32.739
But Uh when you've got three campuses
that are public schools uh that are

00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:38.557
operated by the state, that's a very
different environment than in

00:34:38.590 --> 00:34:42.776
California and you can't have the kind
of structuring here that you could

00:34:42.809 --> 00:34:45.506
have there.

00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:53.539
And as a result, I think we all end up
um with a different uh situation

00:34:55.969 --> 00:35:00.197
with the students then would have
prevailed, then prevails in California.

00:35:00.230 --> 00:35:06.416
I don't think that's going to change.
I don't think it's a bad thing, but

00:35:06.449 --> 00:35:12.867
it means that things are different and
that you have a mixture of levels

00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:17.296
of work That's different from what you
have in California where you've got

00:35:17.329 --> 00:35:22.407
one set of schools that only have the
top 15%

00:35:22.440 --> 00:35:28.477
good way to explain it. Mhm. Yeah, you
talked a lot about turning it into

00:35:28.510 --> 00:35:32.026
a research university, but you also
had a lot of emphasis on the

00:35:32.059 --> 00:35:37.456
educational mission. Well it seems to
me that you can't be a research

00:35:37.489 --> 00:35:43.206
university unless your educational
programs are at that level too because

00:35:43.239 --> 00:35:48.546
the people who teach freshman english
are also going to be interested in

00:35:48.579 --> 00:35:53.927
teaching PhD students in english. And
the same is true across the programs

00:35:53.960 --> 00:36:00.106
in the university and we were
desperately short of campus facilities. The

00:36:00.139 --> 00:36:05.146
library was inadequate. I don't mean
it was a bad library, there just

00:36:05.179 --> 00:36:09.577
wasn't enough space in it for all the
stuff we had to have and there

00:36:09.610 --> 00:36:14.557
wasn't enough space and for all the
people who needed to use it. And

00:36:14.590 --> 00:36:21.477
because we're in phoenix and probably
have the best general library in the

00:36:21.510 --> 00:36:26.977
city of phoenix, we also have an
enormous amount of public use, lawyers

00:36:27.010 --> 00:36:31.506
use our libraries, for example, other
people come to the university and

00:36:31.539 --> 00:36:37.927
use the library because it's the basic
research facility for the whole

00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:44.566
metropolitan area. And we did it in a
very small space in which we

00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:50.637
couldn't even display all the books.
And the librarian who came in, I've

00:36:50.670 --> 00:36:56.697
forgotten his name now, made a major
contribution in rethinking how the

00:36:56.730 --> 00:37:01.247
library should operate in building the
collection through acquiring

00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:06.836
materials that were not in, not
printed, but we're on tapes and in other

00:37:06.869 --> 00:37:12.506
media. And then we were successful in
getting the the legislature to

00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:17.497
appropriate money for a major increase
in the scale of the library on

00:37:17.530 --> 00:37:24.546
campus. And that was helpful. But that
was just one of many things. We

00:37:24.579 --> 00:37:31.617
were under, under supported in many of
our buildings. Ah, it's probably

00:37:31.650 --> 00:37:36.736
not polite to say so. But the
University of Arizona had a significant role

00:37:36.769 --> 00:37:43.197
in suppressing the development of the
physical sciences here, particularly

00:37:43.230 --> 00:37:49.847
the biological sciences. Their
preference would have been that Arizona

00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:57.880
state not offer coursework beyond that
required to get into medical school.

00:37:58.630 --> 00:38:00.630
And if you're going to be a major institution, you've got to do more than

00:38:04.309 --> 00:38:12.309
that and we had inadequate space and
inadequate support and that was true

00:38:15.030 --> 00:38:21.316
in, we had inadequacies pretty much
throughout the campus to become a

00:38:21.349 --> 00:38:27.876
major research and PhD developed
institution and partly it was physical

00:38:27.909 --> 00:38:33.186
facilities. And I think I said a
little earlier that the first summer I

00:38:33.219 --> 00:38:39.186
did a kind of survey I brought in
Hideo Sasaki who was, I had known him at

00:38:39.219 --> 00:38:44.986
the University of Colorado where he
was the chairman of the committee that

00:38:45.019 --> 00:38:50.166
reviewed the improvement of physical
facilities on the campus. He was a

00:38:50.199 --> 00:38:55.566
famous nationally, internationally
famous architect And he would come in

00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:59.827
three or 4 times a year to chair a
committee that looked at physical

00:38:59.860 --> 00:39:05.376
facilities at Boulder and the other
colorado and other campuses of the

00:39:05.409 --> 00:39:11.486
University of colorado. And I hired
him to come in that summer for a week

00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.767
and do a survey of the campus.

00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:18.486
And he spent,

00:39:18.519 --> 00:39:23.787
he lived in the bay area and he came
here in august

00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:31.387
and spent all day every day inspecting
buildings and inspecting the campus

00:39:31.420 --> 00:39:37.146
and wrote what I thought was a
brilliant three page summary of the campus

00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:41.967
and what we needed to do and then
subsequently agreed to be a member of

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:47.907
our design review board, which I
established to help oversee the

00:39:47.940 --> 00:39:54.336
development of university facilities
during my time here and we set about

00:39:54.369 --> 00:40:00.026
to build new buildings. Now, the
reason I admired what he had done is that

00:40:00.059 --> 00:40:05.356
we had had at the University of
Colorado, An architectural style that was

00:40:05.389 --> 00:40:08.677
set in 1916

00:40:08.710 --> 00:40:15.967
and every building at the University
of colorado is done in rural italian

00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:23.626
style with red brick as part of the
building. Red sandstone is part of the

00:40:23.659 --> 00:40:28.057
building, tile roofs as part of the
building. That's a requirement

00:40:28.090 --> 00:40:31.376
anywhere on the main campus,

00:40:31.409 --> 00:40:36.137
but today was very flexible and he
came in in in that course of walking

00:40:36.170 --> 00:40:42.697
around the campus for a week,
concluded that the, the beauty of the campus

00:40:42.730 --> 00:40:46.376
here came from its plantings

00:40:46.409 --> 00:40:51.686
and that we had a wide range of styles
in the buildings and we ought to

00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:57.517
take that as a point of pride and that
we should have always have variety

00:40:57.550 --> 00:41:05.550
in the buildings and he recommended
then that we seek the best architects

00:41:05.610 --> 00:41:11.896
and make each building unique And we
did quite a number of buildings

00:41:11.929 --> 00:41:15.086
during those years. No two of them are
the same. Some of them are good,

00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:18.577
some of them are not so good. Why
don't you talk about some of them? Well

00:41:18.610 --> 00:41:26.477
, um I think the library is a
particularly interesting building because

00:41:26.510 --> 00:41:34.510
it's a very large addition. It
resolved the short term pressure. Mhm. For

00:41:35.909 --> 00:41:42.537
uh stacked facilities. And in the
longer term it solved the problem of

00:41:42.570 --> 00:41:48.936
meeting the needs of the students for
space in the library. And because

00:41:48.969 --> 00:41:55.037
the librarian at the time emphasized
materials that could be on tape and

00:41:55.070 --> 00:42:00.747
so on, the collection was able to be
built up to the quality that we

00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:07.577
needed without requiring that we keep
adding stacks base because there

00:42:07.610 --> 00:42:13.736
were other means of holding the
materials. And I imagine that the library

00:42:13.769 --> 00:42:19.287
is probably as big as it will get now,
at least anytime in the foreseeable

00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:24.916
future. We've got several facilities
around the campus. They they do a

00:42:24.949 --> 00:42:32.376
pretty good job with the students. And
the change in the use of media will

00:42:32.409 --> 00:42:36.347
probably take a good bit of that
pressure off. And I I happen to think

00:42:36.380 --> 00:42:41.427
that the new building buried in the
ground as it is, was a novel idea that

00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:46.767
protected that green space in the
middle of the campus. And I like the

00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:54.800
symbolism of the light that provides
sunlight into the guts of the library.

00:42:54.900 --> 00:42:58.327
 And that that

00:42:58.360 --> 00:43:05.367
pedestal, I guess you'd call it with,
with its symbolism on the on the

00:43:05.400 --> 00:43:10.947
mall. I certainly like the fine arts
center, but then that's I have a

00:43:10.980 --> 00:43:16.467
biased opinion there. But that was the
first

00:43:16.500 --> 00:43:22.666
full fledged competition and it was a
it was an international competition

00:43:22.699 --> 00:43:28.327
with an international jury And it was
this the building that was built was

00:43:28.360 --> 00:43:36.360
the unanimous recommendation of the
panel that evaluated it and was widely

00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:42.026
supported on campus right up until it
was in place. And then there were

00:43:42.059 --> 00:43:46.347
some, some people who didn't care for
it. But I think it's worked very

00:43:46.380 --> 00:43:52.467
well. Why was there a need for a new
arts building?

00:43:52.500 --> 00:43:56.447
We had a theater program with no
theater

00:43:56.480 --> 00:44:03.497
and so we needed a theater. We had a
major collection of art without a

00:44:03.530 --> 00:44:11.530
facility to store or how's it? I
remember visiting Rudy turk on rainy days

00:44:13.190 --> 00:44:18.586
when they would be rushing around in
the upper stories of the what used to

00:44:18.619 --> 00:44:23.776
be the old library, moving pieces to
get them out of the drips that came

00:44:23.809 --> 00:44:28.327
through the ceiling. And I don't think
they ever lost anything of great

00:44:28.360 --> 00:44:35.086
value. But they simply didn't have
storage space. Ah They didn't have

00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:39.456
facilities that would allow them to
accept traveling shows because they

00:44:39.489 --> 00:44:44.557
didn't have temperature and humidity
control. They didn't have security.

00:44:44.590 --> 00:44:49.017
And we have one of the major college
libraries in the western part of the

00:44:49.050 --> 00:44:55.546
United States, Western, we have one of
the major

00:44:55.579 --> 00:45:02.836
museum collections of art in the
Western United States. And many people

00:45:02.869 --> 00:45:08.117
don't know that. But if we have an
extensive and important collection

00:45:08.150 --> 00:45:14.206
because a lot of rich people who moved
here in there later years donated

00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:18.947
collections to Arizona State
University that constitute the heart of the

00:45:18.980 --> 00:45:24.637
collection. Almost certainly have the
finest university collection of

00:45:24.670 --> 00:45:30.916
turned wood objects as just one of the
many things that we've collected.

00:45:30.949 --> 00:45:38.387
And okay, that building has the, the
fine arts building housed that. We

00:45:38.420 --> 00:45:42.947
didn't have an adequate facility for
the dance program. They were using an

00:45:42.980 --> 00:45:48.956
old gymnasium and that gymnasium is
fine as a practice facility, but it's

00:45:48.989 --> 00:45:54.517
not a great performance facility and
we didn't have a an accommodating

00:45:54.550 --> 00:46:00.217
theater on campus. So those seemed
important if we're going to emphasize

00:46:00.250 --> 00:46:06.847
as we chose to do the fine arts on
campus,

00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:12.776
the fine and performing arts is your
interest in the arts that come from

00:46:12.809 --> 00:46:17.537
your background. You're printing, art,
printing. It was probably

00:46:17.570 --> 00:46:22.706
influenced by it. I just thought, you
know, I guess I've always liked to

00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:30.646
go to museums. That's what little boys
who can't play baseball do.

00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:35.367
Well, I remember speaking to you many
years ago about a hobby that you

00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:40.847
have. That I thought was sort of the
fine arts. Did you tell pam about

00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:47.046
that? Oh well I turned wood. I also
build furniture.

00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:51.796
I, you you couldn't have been better
with your timing because I just

00:46:51.829 --> 00:46:59.677
talked with a person in the east two
days ago who called Me because a

00:46:59.710 --> 00:47:07.710
peace of mind that I had sold to a
very famous collector and turner is

00:47:08.449 --> 00:47:14.977
going to go to the would turning
center in philadelphia to be part of

00:47:15.010 --> 00:47:23.010
their permanent collection. I did it
peace uh, when I was taking a course

00:47:23.110 --> 00:47:30.506
from Tom Eckert, I did a three part
piece. It's three vessels. The largest

00:47:30.539 --> 00:47:33.986
is about that tall and about that big
around and the smallest is about

00:47:34.019 --> 00:47:39.106
that tall and about that big around
there turned out of palm and I

00:47:39.139 --> 00:47:46.267
happened to find in an alleyway, a
palm trunk, the heart of which was red

00:47:46.300 --> 00:47:53.767
. I hadn't hadn't seen that before.
And I turned these pieces out of that

00:47:53.800 --> 00:48:01.800
palm. And then I made ah brass or
bronze

00:48:03.869 --> 00:48:11.869
Cap for each one and a skirt for the
base. And so these are, these are

00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:17.947
somewhat unusual and the person wanted
to know what they were worth. And I

00:48:17.980 --> 00:48:21.046
told him what I had sold them for. And
he said, well, there were three

00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:26.307
times at least three times that today.
So I was pleased about that. So

00:48:26.340 --> 00:48:32.736
when did you get interested in doing
turned wood? I've done would work um

00:48:32.769 --> 00:48:39.436
most of my life. And when I, When we
moved back here after I left the

00:48:39.469 --> 00:48:44.736
University of Colorado the second time
in 19

00:48:44.769 --> 00:48:49.137
91. Ah

00:48:49.170 --> 00:48:53.836
looking for something to do. I started
taking courses in woodwork from tom

00:48:53.869 --> 00:49:00.657
effort and would turning looked
interesting. So I tried it out and I've

00:49:00.690 --> 00:49:07.836
been building furniture and turning
would ever since. I didn't know that.

00:49:07.869 --> 00:49:11.706
Thank you manny. Most people, most
people don't. Well, I was wondering

00:49:11.739 --> 00:49:14.977
which came first because you mentioned
the collection. But Jacobson's

00:49:15.010 --> 00:49:17.097
collection

00:49:17.130 --> 00:49:19.796
collection.

00:49:19.829 --> 00:49:23.597
I just wondered if you had been
instrumental in getting that donated here

00:49:23.630 --> 00:49:31.630
. I think the collection from Jacobson
came after I had left. Um He was

00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:39.046
collecting and I was certainly
interested in the collection when I was

00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:46.086
here but he was still collecting it
but had an uncanny ability to pick the

00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:53.907
next thing and he did it all of his
life. One of his collections is by

00:49:53.940 --> 00:50:01.940
what was the name of the famous okay
surrealistic artist here. No here.

00:50:05.059 --> 00:50:13.059
Yeah. All of his figures are tall and
skinny and. Yes. Yes. Yes. Well bud

00:50:14.250 --> 00:50:19.456
collected Phil Curtis before anybody
heard of or before he had become

00:50:19.489 --> 00:50:25.316
famous and amassed a fine collection
of his work. And that's in one of the

00:50:25.349 --> 00:50:31.537
museums now. And in one of his
metamorphosis he became interested in

00:50:31.570 --> 00:50:36.467
turned wood. He was the first serious
collector of turned wood and the

00:50:36.500 --> 00:50:41.867
first time I went to his apartment it
was to see his collection of turned

00:50:41.900 --> 00:50:48.867
wood objects. And the place was filled
with everything from tiny pieces

00:50:48.900 --> 00:50:56.900
that were as thin as paper turned as
thin as paper. Two enormous turned ah

00:50:58.460 --> 00:51:06.460
balls. And that collection of
eventually came here to a. S. U. After

00:51:07.360 --> 00:51:14.427
touring the United States. It's last
stop before it came here was

00:51:14.460 --> 00:51:21.327
the Arts and Crafts Museum in
Washington D. C. What's the name of it?

00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:25.126
Somebody knows

00:51:25.159 --> 00:51:31.026
it's in an old mansion across the
street from the White House.

00:51:31.059 --> 00:51:35.787
It's a part of the Smithsonian. Yeah.
Well anyway that's where it went.

00:51:35.820 --> 00:51:42.447
And then it came here as a permanent
gift and his partly displayed in the

00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:49.597
curator's office and the rest is in
the basement. But in in that lovely

00:51:49.630 --> 00:51:57.557
storage space and is is frequently
augmented now by famous turners who

00:51:57.590 --> 00:52:05.590
turn in pieces because this is the
major collection now.

00:52:06.349 --> 00:52:10.697
So let's talk a little bit more about
getting that building built here.

00:52:10.730 --> 00:52:16.247
How did you, you talked about having
the competition and the selection of

00:52:16.280 --> 00:52:22.827
antoine was the architect was freedom.
Yes, yes. Antoine product. It was

00:52:22.860 --> 00:52:29.186
first, it was his first competition
and he immediately run, won a whole

00:52:29.219 --> 00:52:36.086
series of other competitions and ended
up building several houses here in

00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:44.017
in the greater phoenix area as as a
result of people seeing his work here

00:52:44.050 --> 00:52:49.256
in the flesh and being interested in
it. So, had you heard of him before

00:52:49.289 --> 00:52:55.347
that or how did that all come about
of? We ran an international

00:52:55.380 --> 00:53:02.506
competition and sent materials out to
people to make them aware of it. And

00:53:02.539 --> 00:53:09.416
he was one of the people who responded
and I was not familiar with pre doc.

00:53:09.449 --> 00:53:15.756
He had never been the winner of a
competition before And he beat out some

00:53:15.789 --> 00:53:21.706
very famous architects. There were
four quite well known architects who

00:53:21.739 --> 00:53:27.626
three others who submitted in the
final series and he was the one who was

00:53:27.659 --> 00:53:34.347
selected unanimously by an
international panel because of the um elegance

00:53:34.380 --> 00:53:40.336
of the design and its appropriateness
for this environment.

00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:45.046
You didn't have any say in actually
selecting that then? Well, yeah, in

00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:49.356
the end I did because they made a
recommendation based on what the

00:53:49.389 --> 00:53:53.106
competition had come up with. I could
have said, no, we're going to do

00:53:53.139 --> 00:53:59.637
something else. But if you spend all
that money for a competition and you

00:53:59.670 --> 00:54:03.836
get a beautiful design, I think you're
inclined to go for it. So it was

00:54:03.869 --> 00:54:08.217
your final approval. Well, I had to
give approval. Yes, but it seemed

00:54:08.250 --> 00:54:12.887
clear to me that he won the
competition because of the find design that

00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:20.206
he's superior. Was it your favorite?
Also without any question.

00:54:20.239 --> 00:54:23.887
So one of the things I was going to
ask you is how your name came to be on

00:54:23.920 --> 00:54:26.106
that building.

00:54:26.139 --> 00:54:31.617
Well, you'd have to ask Herman chan in
that the regions have typically

00:54:31.650 --> 00:54:39.650
named a building for each president.
Not necessarily early, sometimes

00:54:39.960 --> 00:54:45.307
rather late. There's one president
who's not yet memorialized.

00:54:45.340 --> 00:54:52.577
He was here in 1930, 19 28-1931

00:54:52.610 --> 00:54:59.506
and he has not got to mention on
campus he was the most hated president.

00:54:59.539 --> 00:55:05.037
But it's it's worth noting that he was
the person who got this school

00:55:05.070 --> 00:55:11.177
accredited for the first time we ran
as you know, a teacher training

00:55:11.210 --> 00:55:19.210
program and we were not accredited.
And in the right at the beginning of

00:55:19.389 --> 00:55:24.977
the depression, it was very difficult
to place. Teachers who came from a

00:55:25.010 --> 00:55:31.807
non accredited school. And so the
region's brought him in and charged him

00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:34.706
to get the school accredited

00:55:34.739 --> 00:55:39.217
And he fired all of the faculty
members who didn't have degrees. That was

00:55:39.250 --> 00:55:44.907
50% of the faculty did not have
degrees at the time.

00:55:44.940 --> 00:55:49.997
Ah, He, it's clear from the record
that he was keeping, the region's fully

00:55:50.030 --> 00:55:56.307
informed, but he didn't win the
popularity contest as you might expect

00:55:56.340 --> 00:56:04.340
when people who did not have degrees
that would make them acceptable in a

00:56:05.329 --> 00:56:10.546
teacher training institution had to be
dismissed right at the onset of the

00:56:10.579 --> 00:56:18.467
depression. But other than that, every
president has a named facility on

00:56:18.500 --> 00:56:25.296
campus. Do you want to name him? I
think he should be having, uh,

00:56:25.329 --> 00:56:30.376
something named for him. What is his
name? You know, I can't tell you

00:56:30.409 --> 00:56:34.166
right now because I don't remember it.
But then I don't remember a lot of

00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:38.916
things. So that's not unusual. It'll
probably come to me if I think about

00:56:38.949 --> 00:56:43.486
it. I think he should have a building
because he was courageous and he did

00:56:43.519 --> 00:56:47.916
what had to be done. And then he left
and had a very successful career

00:56:47.949 --> 00:56:54.026
somewhere else. But in any event,
every president other than him has had a

00:56:54.059 --> 00:57:02.059
building named at some point. And the
Regents made the decision to name

00:57:02.530 --> 00:57:09.997
before we left and announced the name
at our farewell dinner.

00:57:10.030 --> 00:57:13.986
Did you know about it before that?
Yes, they called us up to see if we'd

00:57:14.019 --> 00:57:19.396
have a problem with it. I thought that
was generous,

00:57:19.429 --> 00:57:24.097
as you mentioned, that became very
controversial building. Oh, I know

00:57:24.130 --> 00:57:26.747
there were some people who didn't like
it, but they weren't the ones

00:57:26.780 --> 00:57:33.887
living in it, but some people still
don't like it. I understand that, but

00:57:33.920 --> 00:57:39.186
you always did like it. Yes,

00:57:39.219 --> 00:57:46.467
I think it's a functional useful and
from my point of view, an attractive

00:57:46.500 --> 00:57:52.747
building. Ah I accept that if you
build a range of buildings, not

00:57:52.780 --> 00:57:56.747
everybody's going to like every
building. Some people like the

00:57:56.780 --> 00:58:02.586
architecture building and some don't.
I understand that.

00:58:02.619 --> 00:58:08.586
Um Let's talk a little bit about you
mentioned. Mhm.

00:58:08.619 --> 00:58:13.736
The growth of the issue and multi
campus is now when you came here, there

00:58:13.769 --> 00:58:19.336
was just the one campus that issue.
Tell me about how that changed. Well,

00:58:19.369 --> 00:58:24.256
the regions a couple of years before I
came here, the regions received an

00:58:24.289 --> 00:58:31.787
appropriation from the legislature to
begin planning for a west campus.

00:58:31.820 --> 00:58:36.486
And they used a little tiny bit of it,
I don't know for what and reverted

00:58:36.519 --> 00:58:39.126
that money

00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:45.986
at the end of the year or the next
year. Uh And didn't do anything again.

00:58:46.019 --> 00:58:52.416
And then there began to be a very
active movement. Uh And Lindemann was a

00:58:52.449 --> 00:58:58.666
key figure in it on the east side, not
the only one, but yeah, I mean, the

00:58:58.699 --> 00:59:05.517
west side, of course she was a key
personality in that and her position in

00:59:05.550 --> 00:59:10.026
the legislature was such that she was
able to be very effective in

00:59:10.059 --> 00:59:16.287
promoting the idea of a west campus
and

00:59:16.320 --> 00:59:24.320
things began to move. And in fact the
charge that the region's gave to me

00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:30.867
when I came, that printed thing they
gave me and circulated and which

00:59:30.900 --> 00:59:35.217
shocked the faculty was that one of
the things that was to happen was the

00:59:35.250 --> 00:59:38.686
development of a Westside campus.

00:59:38.719 --> 00:59:42.387
And yes,

00:59:42.420 --> 00:59:47.887
although they had said they wanted
that to happen. They didn't do anything

00:59:47.920 --> 00:59:53.887
to make it happen. And page
Mulholland,

00:59:53.920 --> 01:00:01.077
who I had moved into the position of
executive vice President,

01:00:01.110 --> 01:00:08.467
became our representative to the
legislature along with Brent Brown and

01:00:08.500 --> 01:00:15.977
they persuaded the legislature with
the help of an Lindemann two begin to

01:00:16.010 --> 01:00:23.256
create the legislative milestones that
would make this happen. And I

01:00:23.289 --> 01:00:26.997
wouldn't say that we got into trouble
with the regions, but they were a

01:00:27.030 --> 01:00:33.526
little surprised that things moved
forward in the way they did and that we

01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:39.677
ended up with authorization to proceed
and with some money to proceed. Um

01:00:39.710 --> 01:00:47.710
, and I think they felt that probably
the university had lagged in getting

01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:55.236
their approval for these things and
it's probably true, but they didn't, I

01:00:55.269 --> 01:01:00.477
think they were disappointed that we
hadn't been

01:01:00.510 --> 01:01:06.146
more in sync on this. And I think the
feeling here was that they were not

01:01:06.179 --> 01:01:14.179
receptive to being in sync. And so the
thing was kind of awkward, but we

01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:19.876
ended up with approval and some money
from the legislature.

01:01:19.909 --> 01:01:27.827
And so we began looking for, for
building space, found a site and acquired

01:01:27.860 --> 01:01:35.860
that and then moved ahead and Gary
McSheffrey, I appointed him to be the

01:01:36.710 --> 01:01:42.876
key person on the campus there and

01:01:42.909 --> 01:01:50.267
he planned and gained approval within
the university and from the regions

01:01:50.300 --> 01:01:57.416
for the first six buildings including
the the, the power plant and uh work

01:01:57.449 --> 01:02:02.186
building and then the first six
buildings which included the library and

01:02:02.219 --> 01:02:10.219
administrative facilities and uh
facilities for classrooms and the like

01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:14.247
back up a little bit about how did you
get that location and all that land

01:02:14.280 --> 01:02:21.267
? It's quite a large, yes, it's a half
section, it was vacant and it was

01:02:21.300 --> 01:02:29.300
perfectly located, it's right on the
boundary between Glendale and phoenix

01:02:29.989 --> 01:02:36.117
and is in fact in phoenix which made
it a kind of an ideal piece of

01:02:36.150 --> 01:02:43.316
property and it was completely vacant
and we had help in acquiring it in

01:02:43.349 --> 01:02:51.349
farmland. Um you know, I don't, I
remember it as vacant land and

01:02:51.889 --> 01:02:56.986
I don't remember the details. It
seemed to me that it may have been owned

01:02:57.019 --> 01:03:05.019
by a family who operated a ford
dealership in that part of town and it

01:03:07.610 --> 01:03:12.736
seemed to me that they have, my
recollection is cloudy on this, but in any

01:03:12.769 --> 01:03:18.307
event it seems to me that they were ah
he and maybe other members of the

01:03:18.340 --> 01:03:25.166
family had gone to a. S. U. Some may
have been an alumni of the university

01:03:25.199 --> 01:03:32.807
and it was an opportunity to to get a
piece of land from a friendly source

01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:38.867
at a good price. They may have donated
a portion of it, I don't remember.

01:03:38.900 --> 01:03:45.686
And it was, it seemed like a, an ideal
location for the new campus with

01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:51.836
ample space for parking and for
expansion and it certainly has done that.

01:03:51.869 --> 01:03:59.869
Yes. Well. And it also had good access
from all the surrounding areas.

01:04:01.590 --> 01:04:03.590
You've really seen it grow from nothing to have you been out there lately

01:04:04.880 --> 01:04:09.436
to see, I haven't been out there for a
couple of years. But yes, it came

01:04:09.469 --> 01:04:15.256
from a weed covered lot. Two fine
looking university

01:04:15.289 --> 01:04:17.447
because I know the first few times
I've been out there was basically a

01:04:17.480 --> 01:04:20.447
library and a few other buildings and
now it's starting to look like a

01:04:20.480 --> 01:04:27.416
campus. Well, jerry McSheffrey was
dean of architecture and so he had a

01:04:27.449 --> 01:04:35.449
sensitivity to design that I think was
important in the early years and

01:04:35.789 --> 01:04:40.827
knew how to move projects forward. So
it was a particularly fortuitous

01:04:40.860 --> 01:04:47.256
choice to have him be the first head
of that campus and we're going to be

01:04:47.289 --> 01:04:52.057
interviewing him shortly. Um, anything
special? I should be asking him

01:04:52.090 --> 01:04:55.356
about it. We think

01:04:55.389 --> 01:05:00.256
I would say ask him anything you want
to

01:05:00.289 --> 01:05:07.856
no secret surprise questions you can
give me. Uh, no, no,

01:05:07.889 --> 01:05:14.296
Do you know him? No, I don't. Oh well,
he, he's irish and he has a lovely

01:05:14.329 --> 01:05:19.256
irish lilt. Thank you.

01:05:19.289 --> 01:05:23.927
One of the other things that was
notable, I guess about your time here was

01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:28.376
your relationship with the athletic
department? Well, that was always

01:05:28.409 --> 01:05:30.657
interesting.

01:05:30.690 --> 01:05:33.256
Um

01:05:33.289 --> 01:05:38.256
we had a renegade athletic department
in my opinion

01:05:38.289 --> 01:05:46.289
and explain that life of life. We
moved from the

01:05:47.590 --> 01:05:53.557
from one conference which is not a
major athletic conference. I'm sorry.

01:05:53.590 --> 01:05:58.956
They would take offense at that. But
the fact is it's not one of the

01:05:58.989 --> 01:06:03.756
major conferences even though they
sometimes produce very good football

01:06:03.789 --> 01:06:11.789
teams. And we moved into the PAC 10.
The Pac 10. It was a conference that

01:06:13.920 --> 01:06:19.046
had some really serious scandal
problems.

01:06:19.079 --> 01:06:26.986
I remember when I was at U. C. L. A.
And they had some before that before

01:06:27.019 --> 01:06:29.646
I got to UCLA

01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:37.679
and ah the dean of the College of Law
at Arizona at the University of

01:06:38.690 --> 01:06:46.690
Oregon became the clean up guy And he
worked very hard to help the PAC 10

01:06:47.449 --> 01:06:53.526
conference develop a way of life that
would keep it clean and it hasn't

01:06:53.559 --> 01:07:00.816
been perfect. But they and the big 10
Are very clean conferences. The PAC

01:07:00.849 --> 01:07:08.267
10 I think is the only conference that
does its own investigative work on

01:07:08.300 --> 01:07:16.247
infractions and produces its own
penalties. They are reviewed by the

01:07:16.280 --> 01:07:23.497
But the PAC 10 is intent on being a
clean honest conference to the extent

01:07:23.530 --> 01:07:31.530
possible given the demands of of semi
professional athletic programs. And

01:07:32.380 --> 01:07:38.646
so it has a unique standing and frank
kush

01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:42.646
recommended that we not joined that
conference because he said we weren't

01:07:42.679 --> 01:07:48.947
ready that we were not ready for to
meet their expectations.

01:07:48.980 --> 01:07:55.206
Well, that was a good recommendation
on his part, but there were

01:07:55.239 --> 01:07:59.017
compelling reasons why it's
advantageous to be part of that conference.

01:07:59.050 --> 01:08:05.376
And we joined. And the penalty that we
paid was that we had a very large

01:08:05.409 --> 01:08:09.037
number of programs that were out of
control.

01:08:09.070 --> 01:08:15.816
And I didn't fully appreciate the
extent of the problems until we had gone

01:08:15.849 --> 01:08:22.637
through five track coaches In about a
two year period.

01:08:22.670 --> 01:08:24.937
And

01:08:24.970 --> 01:08:30.977
that was the point at which I asked
frank Saxton, general franks Acton to

01:08:31.010 --> 01:08:36.277
become athletic director And I think
he fired 2/3 of the people in the

01:08:36.310 --> 01:08:41.206
department. What were the problems
with all these people? They didn't

01:08:41.239 --> 01:08:47.517
understand the rules? Uh, and as a
consequence, we were doing a lot of

01:08:47.550 --> 01:08:50.836
things that were illegal

01:08:50.869 --> 01:08:53.987
and then we were getting caught doing
it and then we were getting

01:08:54.020 --> 01:08:59.017
sanctioned. What kind of illegal
things they were doing, paying money that

01:08:59.050 --> 01:09:02.906
shouldn't have been paid.

01:09:02.939 --> 01:09:08.637
I mean, that's, That's a pretty
obvious one.

01:09:08.670 --> 01:09:13.876
Just a variety of activities that were
illegal, illegal recruiting

01:09:13.909 --> 01:09:21.909
activities. Um, Probably the bloodiest
case was the basketball coach. He

01:09:23.010 --> 01:09:27.536
and his two principal associates.

01:09:27.569 --> 01:09:32.296
No, neither. Two of those people have
never been able to work in

01:09:32.329 --> 01:09:37.696
intercollegiate athletics again, they
are essentially banned for life.

01:09:37.729 --> 01:09:42.637
They've had very successful careers in
professional basketball, not as

01:09:42.670 --> 01:09:50.670
players, but as as coaches or
executives, but I think they were incapable

01:09:51.390 --> 01:09:57.696
of running a clean program. One of
them cleaned up his act And was a

01:09:57.729 --> 01:10:03.927
successful coach for a number of years
indeed in the PAC 10 conference.

01:10:03.960 --> 01:10:11.557
But that's one out of three and there
were just continuing infractions in

01:10:11.590 --> 01:10:16.527
all of the programs I think when

01:10:16.560 --> 01:10:22.227
Frank's Acton took over the program he
fired roughly 2/3 of the coaches.

01:10:22.260 --> 01:10:27.706
Tell me about frank Stanton. How did
you get him to come and take well

01:10:27.739 --> 01:10:33.626
frank is an amazing man. Are you
interviewing him good

01:10:33.659 --> 01:10:41.437
frank, join the army in the Mid to
late 30s and rose to be a three star

01:10:41.470 --> 01:10:49.470
general. He ran the tests of the
atomic weapons in the south pacific. He

01:10:50.140 --> 01:10:57.227
has done many amazing things and is
one of the smartest

01:10:57.260 --> 01:11:05.260
and wisest and most subtle people that
I know and I found that he could

01:11:07.010 --> 01:11:10.527
fix anything that was broken

01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:18.437
and he became my fix it man which he
was happy to do because he enjoys

01:11:18.470 --> 01:11:24.946
working. And so we we have had a very
good in fact I'm taking frank to

01:11:24.979 --> 01:11:32.177
lunch next next Tuesday a week from
tomorrow and

01:11:32.210 --> 01:11:39.347
he was, he was a very wise counselor,
ran a very low profile and

01:11:39.380 --> 01:11:44.227
everything that I gave him to work on.
He fixed and the athletic

01:11:44.260 --> 01:11:48.177
department was a good example of that.
He ran it for two years. I made him

01:11:48.210 --> 01:11:53.256
not acting athletic director. I made
him athletic director and he did what

01:11:53.289 --> 01:12:00.017
he thought he had to do to fix the
program. And so did you bring him in?

01:12:00.050 --> 01:12:04.717
He was here,

01:12:04.750 --> 01:12:09.607
he was here. He he's been teaching
public administration

01:12:09.640 --> 01:12:14.857
particularly public budgeting for
years. So how did you discover his

01:12:14.890 --> 01:12:19.097
talents for being the fix it man.

01:12:19.130 --> 01:12:23.817
Yeah. Mostly by giving them
assignments.

01:12:23.850 --> 01:12:28.076
The people that I know who have gotten
to be three or four star generals

01:12:28.109 --> 01:12:33.817
are very, very capable people and they
know how to fix things because they

01:12:33.850 --> 01:12:39.527
don't have a very long time in office
in any one job in the military. You

01:12:39.560 --> 01:12:45.857
move about once every two years and
whether you get to move again depends

01:12:45.890 --> 01:12:51.416
on how well you perform the last time.
So you come into a situation,

01:12:51.449 --> 01:12:59.449
you fix it and then you immediately
move on. And so in my experience,

01:13:00.550 --> 01:13:07.786
people of high rank in the military
are extremely good at what they do and

01:13:07.819 --> 01:13:11.317
frank is exceptionally good. And he
had a good reputation in town. When he

01:13:11.350 --> 01:13:18.147
moved here, he became ah sort of a
major domo for one of the governors and

01:13:18.180 --> 01:13:25.767
he's been active in community affairs
ever since. And he's he's just an

01:13:25.800 --> 01:13:31.126
extraordinary man. Those things come
to your attention and that's why I

01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:36.317
picked it was

01:13:36.350 --> 01:13:39.796
your relationship with the athletic
department other than when you put

01:13:39.829 --> 01:13:44.717
frank in charge. How would you
describe that?

01:13:44.750 --> 01:13:49.616
I would say that it was probably not
the warmest relationships that I had

01:13:49.649 --> 01:13:54.916
at the university though, I think in
general, many of the people came to,

01:13:54.949 --> 01:14:02.036
we came to get along with each other
quite well, but it's it's difficult

01:14:02.069 --> 01:14:08.196
to change established ways of life and
it's hard for people to accept the

01:14:08.229 --> 01:14:14.237
fact that what they had done for years
is not going to be acceptable in

01:14:14.270 --> 01:14:20.906
the PAC 10 conference. And ah I can
tell you after the travails that the

01:14:20.939 --> 01:14:28.656
PAC 10 went through in getting its own
shop cleaned up. They weren't going

01:14:28.689 --> 01:14:36.689
to take a lot of advice from people
who were constantly in trouble. And we

01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:41.916
had some very nasty confrontations in
hearings with them over infractions

01:14:41.949 --> 01:14:48.677
and the like. And it's just it was
perfectly clear That if we wanted to be

01:14:48.710 --> 01:14:53.607
successful in the PAC 10, we had to
clean up the place.

01:14:53.640 --> 01:14:56.987
Do you think that was the athletic
department, surprised that you became

01:14:57.020 --> 01:15:00.687
so active with that or did they think
that I think they were appalled that

01:15:00.720 --> 01:15:04.767
I became so active with it?

01:15:04.800 --> 01:15:11.097
How do you, how do you know that?
Well, athletic departments are generally

01:15:11.130 --> 01:15:17.506
left alone and if they run clean,
that's fine because what they do is is

01:15:17.539 --> 01:15:24.906
an expected and major activity of any
major university. They handle tons

01:15:24.939 --> 01:15:31.496
of money. They have the lives of
considerable number of students in their

01:15:31.529 --> 01:15:39.529
hands and they lived by an arcane and
complex set of rules which many of

01:15:40.659 --> 01:15:48.107
them think are nonsense rules and so
there's a natural tendency to want to

01:15:48.140 --> 01:15:55.156
do things in a little different way if
you can and most of the people that

01:15:55.189 --> 01:15:59.317
we hired in were people who came from
conferences that didn't have a

01:15:59.350 --> 01:16:03.196
reputation for being crystal clean

01:16:03.229 --> 01:16:10.107
and the people that were hired before
you came? Well, it's hard. Yes. Uh,

01:16:10.140 --> 01:16:16.217
we started trying to hire good people
and we even hired some people from

01:16:16.250 --> 01:16:23.406
the, from the pac 10 That were
inveterate violators, but you know, I

01:16:23.439 --> 01:16:27.196
didn't know that at the time we hired
them. We went, as I said, I think we

01:16:27.229 --> 01:16:34.687
went through five track coaches In uh,
in less than two years

01:16:34.720 --> 01:16:42.720
and ah, that At least some of them
came from other PAC 10 schools.

01:16:43.619 --> 01:16:47.147
And I don't know whether they came
here because they thought that life

01:16:47.180 --> 01:16:53.897
would be different here or if they
came here and in a serious and open

01:16:53.930 --> 01:16:59.277
minded way, but they didn't play by
the rules and it was disheartening to

01:16:59.310 --> 01:17:05.347
have a coach in and say, now, here are
the things you can do and here are

01:17:05.380 --> 01:17:08.927
the things you can't do and have them
say, oh, I understand and that's the

01:17:08.960 --> 01:17:14.097
way we'll live and go out immediately
and the next day schedule a track

01:17:14.130 --> 01:17:20.857
meet that was illegal. You can't, you
can't live with that. One of the

01:17:20.890 --> 01:17:25.477
coaches went home. I think in a month
after we hired him because of an

01:17:25.510 --> 01:17:31.656
inability to live with the, with the
requirements. At what point, how long

01:17:31.689 --> 01:17:34.317
after you came here did you realize
that you were going to have to spend

01:17:34.350 --> 01:17:37.126
so much time and effort with the
athletic department? That probably wasn't

01:17:37.159 --> 01:17:42.296
your original plan. It was not my
original plan.

01:17:42.329 --> 01:17:45.496
Ah

01:17:45.529 --> 01:17:51.227
I knew that I that I was going to be
in better shape when I hired frank

01:17:51.260 --> 01:17:56.237
Saxton to run it and clean it up.

01:17:56.270 --> 01:17:59.897
I don't remember what year it was. I
don't remember how long. It's not

01:17:59.930 --> 01:18:05.286
soon enough.

01:18:05.319 --> 01:18:09.916
Well the department you have to
understand, it's not just the department,

01:18:09.949 --> 01:18:17.949
it was the it was the Sun Angels as
well. Mhm. And I think in the end the

01:18:19.890 --> 01:18:27.890
University of Arizona did a better job
with their support group than we

01:18:27.989 --> 01:18:35.777
did with ours. And the thing that
alerted me that we had a real problem is

01:18:35.810 --> 01:18:42.567
that they wanted me to sign a letter
giving the proceeds of 300 of the

01:18:42.600 --> 01:18:48.286
highest priced tickets to frank kush

01:18:48.319 --> 01:18:56.319
and I couldn't legally do it. And they
priest this, you can't put in your

01:18:57.260 --> 01:19:00.286
final story.

01:19:00.319 --> 01:19:04.866
They gave me a trumped up letter that
they said that my predecessor had

01:19:04.899 --> 01:19:12.899
written but had never signed. Well he
said he never saw it either,

01:19:13.010 --> 01:19:18.687
that they wanted me to sign. That
would give them the proceeds of the 300

01:19:18.720 --> 01:19:23.336
highest price tickets in the stadium
which they would then give to frank

01:19:23.369 --> 01:19:26.107
kush.

01:19:26.140 --> 01:19:28.387
Forever

01:19:28.420 --> 01:19:32.326
frank frank kush. Didn't work here at
that point, did he? Well, no, he had

01:19:32.359 --> 01:19:37.506
been dismissed. But they felt he'd had
the short end of the stick and they

01:19:37.539 --> 01:19:41.717
may very well be right. I don't know.
He did win the lawsuit after all.

01:19:41.750 --> 01:19:44.357
But

01:19:44.390 --> 01:19:50.887
that's all water under the under the
bridge as far as I was concerned. So

01:19:50.920 --> 01:19:56.416
I got this faked up letter without the
President's signature on it. And

01:19:56.449 --> 01:20:01.946
they said well this is the draft he
sent to us. And so I called the

01:20:01.979 --> 01:20:07.187
President. He said well that's the
draft they sent to me and which I

01:20:07.220 --> 01:20:11.576
didn't sign and which I wouldn't sign.

01:20:11.609 --> 01:20:18.437
And that was sort of an awakening for
me. That was very early. That was

01:20:18.470 --> 01:20:22.717
within the first six weeks. But I'm a
slow learner and it took me a long

01:20:22.750 --> 01:20:28.126
time to get around to to doing all the
things that had to be done. But you

01:20:28.159 --> 01:20:32.166
said you came here with your goal to
make this a research university. Yes.

01:20:32.199 --> 01:20:37.477
So I would imagine that. Well, I
thought it was a diversion actually.

01:20:37.510 --> 01:20:40.076
 Thanks

01:20:40.109 --> 01:20:48.109
and frank took much of that diversion
off my hands and did it frank has a

01:20:48.220 --> 01:20:56.220
way of handling people that leaves
very little blood on the earth.

01:20:58.409 --> 01:21:03.166
That's an interesting way to put it.
Mhm. Well, he's had a lot of

01:21:03.199 --> 01:21:07.277
experience.

01:21:07.310 --> 01:21:10.527
Well, you want to talk a little bit
more about what you did to make it a

01:21:10.560 --> 01:21:16.317
research university? Well, one of the
things that I learned when I got

01:21:16.350 --> 01:21:24.350
here was that as one example we had
colonies of animals in a number of

01:21:24.430 --> 01:21:30.607
places at the university. But we had
no policy on the care of animals,

01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:34.777
you have to have written policies

01:21:34.810 --> 01:21:38.717
on how to care for animals and you
have to demonstrate that you're doing

01:21:38.750 --> 01:21:44.296
it, none of our facilities would
qualify. So one of the things we did was

01:21:44.329 --> 01:21:50.977
to set out to fix as many as possible
of the animal care facilities so

01:21:51.010 --> 01:21:59.010
that they would be ah compliant with
good practice. Um, another thing that

01:22:00.930 --> 01:22:07.267
many people do is experiments with
human beings. We didn't have

01:22:07.300 --> 01:22:12.166
institutional policies, There were
practices in departments that do

01:22:12.199 --> 01:22:16.817
studies of human beings, but we didn't
have institutional policies on that.

01:22:16.850 --> 01:22:23.717
We set that in motion. Um and you can
go through the panoply of

01:22:23.750 --> 01:22:30.817
activities that are research based and
we did not have them formally cared

01:22:30.850 --> 01:22:37.166
for in the university and we set about
to establish them in policy, get

01:22:37.199 --> 01:22:44.406
them properly approved and get them
placed in practice. Um We did not have

01:22:44.439 --> 01:22:50.137
relationships with Washington. Most of
the money for research comes from

01:22:50.170 --> 01:22:57.946
Washington. And if you don't have
access consistently, we had we had

01:22:57.979 --> 01:23:05.979
someone Who made two trips a year to
Washington for a week each, but you

01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:11.597
almost have to have somebody living in
Washington to maintain the kind of

01:23:11.630 --> 01:23:18.267
relationship that keeps you attuned to
what's going on. Mm hmm.

01:23:18.300 --> 01:23:25.206
Ah Many of our departments did not
differentiate who could be in the PhD

01:23:25.239 --> 01:23:33.239
programs as faculty members. We had
faculty members teaching in advanced

01:23:33.890 --> 01:23:40.387
programs in the sciences who didn't do
research and you have to deal with

01:23:40.420 --> 01:23:47.307
that because if you're going to, if
you're going to be doing research in

01:23:47.340 --> 01:23:53.267
the sciences or turning out PhD is
capable of doing it. They need to have

01:23:53.300 --> 01:23:58.517
been nurtured and instructed by people
who are doing it and to be sort of

01:23:58.550 --> 01:24:06.550
partners in that endeavor. That meant
that we had to rethink the duties of

01:24:08.789 --> 01:24:11.857
some faculty members.

01:24:11.890 --> 01:24:17.647
Did you have at that time a provost
for research? Yes. One of the things I

01:24:17.680 --> 01:24:24.756
did was to appoint Henry Reeves as
provo as vice president for research.

01:24:24.789 --> 01:24:29.796
And he spent a lot of he had been
someone who had spent two years working

01:24:29.829 --> 01:24:37.829
in one of the ah organizations in
Washington Research organization. And so

01:24:38.909 --> 01:24:45.177
he was connected back there. He had
friendships in congress and in other

01:24:45.210 --> 01:24:53.210
places. And I appointed him as our
vice President for research and he made

01:24:53.890 --> 01:25:01.890
it his duty, as I had asked him to do
two bring these things to be be in

01:25:02.949 --> 01:25:08.017
issue and to establish the kinds of
relationships that we needed in

01:25:08.050 --> 01:25:11.857
Washington in order to get money.

01:25:11.890 --> 01:25:15.916
Did you have at the time, any areas of
research that you thought you might

01:25:15.949 --> 01:25:21.996
specialize? The regions had, Just
before I came in, that document had

01:25:22.029 --> 01:25:28.166
identified certain areas that were to
be areas of emphasis at ASU and I

01:25:28.199 --> 01:25:35.137
can't cite them all. Ah I know that
the School of Fine Arts was one of

01:25:35.170 --> 01:25:41.357
them, but there were certain science
areas that were also to be emphasized

01:25:41.390 --> 01:25:46.376
and we've tried to do that and I think
that's still an emphasis here. And

01:25:46.409 --> 01:25:51.357
certainly the recent hirings in the
sciences carry that forward in a major

01:25:51.390 --> 01:25:59.390
way, you know that in the area of the
research for mars missions. Yes, no

01:26:00.279 --> 01:26:07.246
, that had been here before and it has
prospered. It's one of the very

01:26:07.279 --> 01:26:14.046
interesting things that's here.

01:26:14.079 --> 01:26:17.586
One of the other things that, as I was
looking through your time here, it

01:26:17.619 --> 01:26:22.156
talks about the major fundraising
campaign went on. What do you want to

01:26:22.189 --> 01:26:28.696
talk to? The centennial fundraising
campaign was the first university wide

01:26:28.729 --> 01:26:33.147
fundraising campaign that the
university had ever done. It had done

01:26:33.180 --> 01:26:38.546
fundraising for specific projects, the
Memorial Union, various other

01:26:38.579 --> 01:26:43.286
things like that, but it had never
done a university wide fundraising

01:26:43.319 --> 01:26:51.319
program. And so Lonnie Ostrom, who at
that time it was a faculty member

01:26:52.210 --> 01:26:56.487
here but was a fundraiser all over the
country for training other people

01:26:56.520 --> 01:27:03.046
to be fundraisers, agreed to become
head of fundraising and development.

01:27:03.079 --> 01:27:08.727
And it was an outstanding choice. He
ran the first program, the first

01:27:08.760 --> 01:27:16.760
campaign, which was the centennial
year We set as a goal, $100 million. Ah

01:27:16.880 --> 01:27:22.137
A very modest goal. We were never sure
we were quite going to make it, but

01:27:22.170 --> 01:27:30.170
we ended up with about $120 million.
And the next campaign, which laddie

01:27:30.359 --> 01:27:38.359
undertook with Bonnie's assistance
Produced 640 million. So once you get

01:27:39.199 --> 01:27:44.097
started and begin to develop the
network to do it, particularly if you

01:27:44.130 --> 01:27:52.130
have students who go into businesses
that have unusual opportunities,

01:27:53.779 --> 01:27:59.956
then you can go back to them down the
line and get some of their, some of

01:27:59.989 --> 01:28:07.737
their largesse. And so the second
campaign has was much more effective

01:28:07.770 --> 01:28:12.477
because of what happened in the first
one and then the follow up to it. I

01:28:12.510 --> 01:28:19.347
understand that now The next one is
likely to be for 200 minutes, two

01:28:19.380 --> 01:28:27.147
billion or one or 2 billion. So your
goal is to escalate the amounts and I

01:28:27.180 --> 01:28:31.647
think they have a pretty good list of
where the money is now. Also have a

01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:38.156
large staff working on doing that.
Yes, just a couple of people. Yeah.

01:28:38.189 --> 01:28:43.057
Has that changed? It doesn't seem like
that. It didn't used to think of

01:28:43.090 --> 01:28:47.576
the university president's job as
raising money. That's probably one of

01:28:47.609 --> 01:28:51.546
the major jobs today. That's one of
the changes. Yeah. University

01:28:51.579 --> 01:28:56.887
presidents used to walk the campus,
sit in their offices and write

01:28:56.920 --> 01:29:02.996
brilliant speeches and occasionally go
to the Legislature and fundraising

01:29:03.029 --> 01:29:10.536
is a major undertaking today and eats
up a tremendous amount of time even

01:29:10.569 --> 01:29:18.569
at a state university. Well, the state
universities have to catch up.

01:29:19.979 --> 01:29:25.567
one of the things that has happened is
that the amount of public money

01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:31.536
going into state universities has
declined relative to the need for it.

01:29:31.569 --> 01:29:33.637
And

01:29:33.670 --> 01:29:40.107
the the money generally hasn't kept
pace with inflation and it has

01:29:40.140 --> 01:29:46.987
certainly not kept pace with the
number of students. And you either cut

01:29:47.020 --> 01:29:51.866
your programs back or you find ways to
get money and most of the schools

01:29:51.899 --> 01:29:55.836
have tried to find ways to get money

01:29:55.869 --> 01:30:00.626
most of the good ones, so we're going
to survive.

01:30:00.659 --> 01:30:03.416
Another thing that mentioned at the
back of your time here was that there

01:30:03.449 --> 01:30:09.517
was a time when computers were really
becoming part of our everyday lives

01:30:09.550 --> 01:30:14.477
and we can talk a little bit about
your thoughts about computers and how

01:30:14.510 --> 01:30:22.510
that changed the university.

01:30:22.760 --> 01:30:27.227
Well, it has affected or infected

01:30:27.260 --> 01:30:33.126
every area of the university. You
really can't function without computers.

01:30:33.159 --> 01:30:40.027
And we had a few computers scattered
about

01:30:40.060 --> 01:30:45.397
and some very good people trying to
build a computer system for the

01:30:45.430 --> 01:30:49.326
university.

01:30:49.359 --> 01:30:55.946
I felt that one of the ways to make
that work was to require

01:30:55.979 --> 01:31:00.796
administrative leadership to become
computer literate and to use the

01:31:00.829 --> 01:31:08.829
computer in their work. So I started
communicating with Deans by computer

01:31:09.460 --> 01:31:15.656
and some very quickly learned how to
do it and would respond to others

01:31:15.689 --> 01:31:22.887
never did. And I remember one would
always have his secretary take the

01:31:22.920 --> 01:31:28.107
message down then he would give her a
handwritten response and she would

01:31:28.140 --> 01:31:34.376
put it in the computer and send it
back over his name. And uh that's all

01:31:34.409 --> 01:31:40.067
gone now and a lot of things that
should have been done a long time ago on

01:31:40.100 --> 01:31:45.996
computers is now being done. and I
think particularly with laddies

01:31:46.029 --> 01:31:51.527
emphasis on the development of
instructional computing that there's been a

01:31:51.560 --> 01:31:56.576
revolution in the use of computers in
the university. Well they're talking

01:31:56.609 --> 01:31:59.777
about now, people can even take their
courses and get their degrees

01:31:59.810 --> 01:32:05.286
without coming to campus, I think well
yes, there's no doubt that the

01:32:05.319 --> 01:32:08.817
competition makes that essential,

01:32:08.850 --> 01:32:13.307
that's what the university of phoenix
does. An acquaintance of mine runs

01:32:13.340 --> 01:32:21.340
there psychology program, you can get
a PhD in psychology from them

01:32:23.050 --> 01:32:26.817
without going to school on their
campus.

01:32:26.850 --> 01:32:34.317
What do you think about that? Well, um

01:32:34.350 --> 01:32:41.006
I'm sure that in some courses you can
produce a better course that's as

01:32:41.039 --> 01:32:46.817
carefully thought out as a computer
transmitted course has to be than some

01:32:46.850 --> 01:32:50.946
courses that are taught by people who
don't prepare that well for their in

01:32:50.979 --> 01:32:55.916
in in course presentations.

01:32:55.949 --> 01:33:00.206
So I'm I'm certainly not opposed to it
and I don't see any reason that it

01:33:00.239 --> 01:33:05.267
can't be done. Most of the places that
I think are really good do require

01:33:05.300 --> 01:33:11.706
from time to time that there be some
in house meetings, maybe a week, once

01:33:11.739 --> 01:33:15.666
a year, something like that where
people can get acquainted. But I'm

01:33:15.699 --> 01:33:20.567
certainly not opposed to distance
learning and for some people, I think

01:33:20.600 --> 01:33:25.086
it's maybe the only alternative

01:33:25.119 --> 01:33:27.977
and it sounds like you started off
with your communication with your

01:33:28.010 --> 01:33:32.956
Dean's by computer. That was the early
email. Well it was, it was, it was

01:33:32.989 --> 01:33:38.687
email and it was very uncomfortable
for the ones who had no computer

01:33:38.720 --> 01:33:41.817
skills.

01:33:41.850 --> 01:33:44.777
I've heard a lot of them, a lot of
people talk about how they had older

01:33:44.810 --> 01:33:48.116
people who had to learn to type.

01:33:48.149 --> 01:33:54.217
Yes, with a different keyboard.

01:33:54.250 --> 01:33:58.296
Have you always been kind of not
computer literate before there were

01:33:58.329 --> 01:34:03.116
computers, but you grew up in the time
I learned to type when I was a

01:34:03.149 --> 01:34:09.626
sophomore in high school and uh I ran
a line of type that for a while that

01:34:09.659 --> 01:34:15.607
was confusing because the line of type
has a different keyboard and

01:34:15.640 --> 01:34:21.097
that I I never got past that very
successfully. But yeah, I learned to use

01:34:21.130 --> 01:34:29.130
keyboards at a fairly early age. They
were clumsy. I did my dissertation

01:34:29.750 --> 01:34:36.807
work which required a lot of
computation using a

01:34:36.840 --> 01:34:44.107
a non electronic computing machine
where you had to pull the handle

01:34:44.140 --> 01:34:51.256
because you see Ella hadn't yet moved
to the electrified ones for student

01:34:51.289 --> 01:34:56.597
purposes. But that's all gone now. It
certainly has seen a lot of changes

01:34:56.630 --> 01:35:01.906
in your lifetime. Yeah. And the pace
picks up,

01:35:01.939 --> 01:35:05.807
Just reflect a little bit on how have
you seen a huge change from the time

01:35:05.840 --> 01:35:12.206
you first came here? Okay,

01:35:12.239 --> 01:35:17.296
well I think in many ways it's much
more mature. It's had a lot of

01:35:17.329 --> 01:35:22.866
maturing experiences. I think laddie
was instrumental in that

01:35:22.899 --> 01:35:27.967
and certainly the changes that are
coming now are emphasizing some of the

01:35:28.000 --> 01:35:36.000
more contemporary means of analysis
and research and I think it is it will

01:35:36.199 --> 01:35:44.199
mature into a significant player. Uh,
a sus significant problem, it seems

01:35:45.380 --> 01:35:53.380
to me is, uh, lack of money and that
makes life very difficult and it's,

01:35:54.340 --> 01:35:59.777
it's also difficult for a school to
raise all the money it needs when a

01:35:59.810 --> 01:36:03.977
lot of people believe that it's
getting lots of money from the state and

01:36:04.010 --> 01:36:09.076
it does get lots of money from the
state, but not not in comparison with

01:36:09.109 --> 01:36:16.086
what universities elsewhere get from
their states. And so I think the

01:36:16.119 --> 01:36:22.767
university has made very good
progress, but that the challenges are quite

01:36:22.800 --> 01:36:29.076
large in Arizona. Hmm. And the tuition
keeps going up to, I think the

01:36:29.109 --> 01:36:36.796
tuition is very low, I'm sorry, but I
think it's very low,

01:36:36.829 --> 01:36:41.336
you know, I've, I've worked in two
public universities other than here,

01:36:41.369 --> 01:36:45.807
well, three, I spent a year at the
University of Oregon

01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:48.546
Oregon

01:36:48.579 --> 01:36:56.579
colorado and Minnesota all charge
substantially more than Arizona. And I

01:36:56.829 --> 01:37:02.206
think we're hung up on the statement
in the constitution that says that

01:37:02.239 --> 01:37:09.786
the tuition should be as nearly free
as possible. And I think the regions

01:37:09.819 --> 01:37:15.196
have a tendency to place all the
emphasis on the word free

01:37:15.229 --> 01:37:20.376
and I place all the emphasis on the
words as possible and if you want to

01:37:20.409 --> 01:37:24.987
be competitive at a very high level,
you've got to spend enough and you've

01:37:25.020 --> 01:37:32.317
got to demand enough from tuition
payers. Two meet the needs that those

01:37:32.350 --> 01:37:39.437
students have for getting educated so
that they will not fall into the uh

01:37:39.470 --> 01:37:45.397
huh low income classes

01:37:45.430 --> 01:37:49.826
as you look back at your career here.
Um What is it that that you're

01:37:49.859 --> 01:37:57.859
proudest of that you'd like to be
remembered for?

01:38:04.319 --> 01:38:08.017
Oh, I I don't know, I could make a
trite statement. I'd like to be

01:38:08.050 --> 01:38:14.086
remembered as somebody who tried hard.

01:38:14.119 --> 01:38:17.567
Did you have any disappointments
things you wanted to do that you weren't

01:38:17.600 --> 01:38:20.586
able to accomplish?

01:38:20.619 --> 01:38:24.786
Oh, you'd always like to do more than
you can get done.

01:38:24.819 --> 01:38:32.347
Sure, But you do what you can do and
take, take pleasure in the things

01:38:32.380 --> 01:38:35.746
that worked. Well,

01:38:35.779 --> 01:38:41.246
one Question I'm always asking
everybody is about just um your, your

01:38:41.279 --> 01:38:44.527
memories of a s you, are there any
special memories that you have of the

01:38:44.560 --> 01:38:50.086
years that you were here?

01:38:50.119 --> 01:38:56.687
Well, yes, there are. I suppose at one
level,

01:38:56.720 --> 01:39:01.857
some of the most interesting memories
have to do with

01:39:01.890 --> 01:39:07.786
with entertaining we

01:39:07.819 --> 01:39:11.836
Through most of the years, we probably
entertained about 5000 people a

01:39:11.869 --> 01:39:18.217
year at the house. And some of the
some of the groups that came in were

01:39:18.250 --> 01:39:20.887
really fascinating.

01:39:20.920 --> 01:39:25.586
Um

01:39:25.619 --> 01:39:27.786
The

01:39:27.819 --> 01:39:35.187
Graham, what was her name? The dancer
Martha Graham. She and her troops

01:39:35.220 --> 01:39:40.187
Had dinner at our House one night
about 1:00 AM.

01:39:40.220 --> 01:39:45.137
They had, they had done their
signature performance

01:39:45.170 --> 01:39:49.397
In the course of a residency that they
did on campus for several weeks. I

01:39:49.430 --> 01:39:52.387
think they were here six weeks

01:39:52.420 --> 01:40:00.076
and we invited the whole troop over
and multitude of others to meet them.

01:40:00.109 --> 01:40:02.116
 And

01:40:02.149 --> 01:40:05.557
I have an indelible memory

01:40:05.590 --> 01:40:13.277
of Martha Graham sitting on the sofa
in the living room, holding court

01:40:13.310 --> 01:40:19.166
with the people who came in to talk
with her. And we had a little sheltie

01:40:19.199 --> 01:40:24.906
at the time who positioned himself
right next to her and she was sitting

01:40:24.939 --> 01:40:31.677
there petting and talking with these
people as they came in Another time,

01:40:31.710 --> 01:40:36.807
we entertained walter Cronkite many
times when we were courting walter,

01:40:36.840 --> 01:40:43.156
the use of walter's name on the School
of Journalism

01:40:43.189 --> 01:40:46.277
and

01:40:46.310 --> 01:40:54.310
Our stepdaughter, Donna came in from a
dance one night and sort of flipped

01:40:55.340 --> 01:41:00.246
into the house and didn't realize that
Cronkite was there and we

01:41:00.279 --> 01:41:04.727
introduced them and he asked her what
she'd been doing, She said, well

01:41:04.760 --> 01:41:10.067
she'd been to a dance and he asked her
if she knew how to waltz

01:41:10.100 --> 01:41:18.100
and she said, well no, I've never done
that.

01:41:18.510 --> 01:41:25.696
So, walter and his wife and Donna
moved into the entryway of the house and

01:41:25.729 --> 01:41:29.777
he taught her to Wall Street.

01:41:29.810 --> 01:41:37.810
That's a unique memory. Well, Mrs
Cronkite hummed a few blue daniel.

01:41:38.810 --> 01:41:43.286
So the naming of the Cronkite school
came about during your time. Tell us

01:41:43.319 --> 01:41:50.586
about how that happened. Uh it's it's
one of the surprising stories. He's

01:41:50.619 --> 01:41:55.817
a graduate of the University of texas
texas has never asked him for

01:41:55.850 --> 01:42:00.267
anything. And

01:42:00.300 --> 01:42:08.300
the head of the CBS station in town.
New Cronkite very well. Carl johnson.

01:42:09.500 --> 01:42:16.006
Yes. And he began courting him on our
behalf. And when he thought he had

01:42:16.039 --> 01:42:24.039
it to the point where it would work.
He introduced us to him and him to us

01:42:25.550 --> 01:42:32.357
and then we had a series of events uh,
to get better acquainted and he

01:42:32.390 --> 01:42:40.390
agreed to put his name on the, on the
program. And

01:42:40.500 --> 01:42:46.406
without tom chauncey we never would
have gotten out. And the wonder to all

01:42:46.439 --> 01:42:50.967
of us as at the University of texas
didn't go after him. He was after all

01:42:51.000 --> 01:42:57.166
the most trusted man in America and
one of the most famous and why texas

01:42:57.199 --> 01:43:02.057
did never go after him. I noticed that
at the last football game, the Rose

01:43:02.090 --> 01:43:08.666
Bowl game this year they had him doing
a commercial for them. And that's

01:43:08.699 --> 01:43:12.256
that's a very unusual thing.

01:43:12.289 --> 01:43:16.616
But that's how we got connected with
him I suppose The other thing I

01:43:16.649 --> 01:43:22.227
remember we had the black a black
dance troupe here and I can't remember

01:43:22.260 --> 01:43:30.260
the name of the group. But the man who
organized the group and lead it

01:43:31.390 --> 01:43:38.857
is a really interesting man and we had
a sculpture from the museum in the

01:43:38.890 --> 01:43:46.647
front entry And he came in one night
and I can't remember which sculpture

01:43:46.680 --> 01:43:50.897
was there that night. But he came in
and he looked at and he threw his

01:43:50.930 --> 01:43:55.567
arms around it and he said I love this
piece.

01:43:55.600 --> 01:44:01.156
So those are three indelible memories

01:44:01.189 --> 01:44:04.887
and you actually entertain these
people at your home that was near the

01:44:04.920 --> 01:44:10.196
campus that home understands now being
torn down. Yes. Probably starting

01:44:10.229 --> 01:44:17.057
today. Oh let's see. There's one other
who's the famous cellist

01:44:17.090 --> 01:44:25.090
Rostropovich. We entertain him many
times. And ah

01:44:25.689 --> 01:44:32.616
he was an interesting character who
came to the house and embellished it

01:44:32.649 --> 01:44:38.156
in an inimitable style. Mhm.

01:44:38.189 --> 01:44:41.237
It does seem though that you're losing
something that university

01:44:41.270 --> 01:44:47.406
presidents won't entertain in their
homes like that. Well

01:44:47.439 --> 01:44:52.826
some do, some don't. Uh the University
of California has official houses

01:44:52.859 --> 01:44:59.027
on every on every campus and they have
not torn them down. They have given

01:44:59.060 --> 01:45:05.967
money to the president's to live where
they wish. And uh most of those

01:45:06.000 --> 01:45:13.256
houses are still in use as
entertaining settings. I know chuck young was

01:45:13.289 --> 01:45:21.289
chancellor at U. C. L. A. I think 30
years And they moved out of the house

01:45:21.810 --> 01:45:28.937
about 10 years before he retired. But
they did their major entertaining in

01:45:28.970 --> 01:45:35.717
that house on campus. It's a it's a
beautiful house in a beautiful setting

01:45:35.750 --> 01:45:43.750
And you can throw a party for six Or
for 350 in that house with equal ease

01:45:46.090 --> 01:45:54.090
and it has a feel about it to people
who come there that is different from

01:45:55.640 --> 01:45:59.557
doing it in a restaurant or a hotel.

01:45:59.590 --> 01:46:05.177
Yes you don't really have that
opportunity anymore then. Well I presume it

01:46:05.210 --> 01:46:07.546
won't.

01:46:07.579 --> 01:46:12.126
Now maybe the president will entertain
in his own house and far from

01:46:12.159 --> 01:46:17.347
campus? Well

01:46:17.380 --> 01:46:21.647
one other question I asked everyone,
what advice do you give to young

01:46:21.680 --> 01:46:25.116
people today that are trying to choose
a college or a career? What do you

01:46:25.149 --> 01:46:32.496
do? Uh go to the best college that
will admit you

01:46:32.529 --> 01:46:39.496
study the program that attract your
interest the most. And my experience

01:46:39.529 --> 01:46:44.737
is that most people don't practice in
the field in which they graduated

01:46:44.770 --> 01:46:52.446
and if they need other education they
can always get it.

01:46:52.479 --> 01:46:55.376
I think those are the questions that I
had. Is there anything that you

01:46:55.409 --> 01:46:58.246
thought I was gonna ask you that I
didn't know that you don't think I'm

01:46:58.279 --> 01:47:02.756
going to tell you that actually people
have done that. I've got some of my

01:47:02.789 --> 01:47:06.246
best answers with

01:47:06.279 --> 01:47:09.897
june. What should I ask him that I
didn't I can't he's already said so

01:47:09.930 --> 01:47:13.727
many things that I really gave me an
insight into things that were

01:47:13.760 --> 01:47:18.996
happening when I was at A. S. U.
That's very interesting. So probably some

01:47:19.029 --> 01:47:24.586
things you didn't even want to know
about. It was just a different insight.

01:47:24.619 --> 01:47:28.796
Which which is why we want to
interview each of the people you all have

01:47:28.829 --> 01:47:33.046
frank's Acton will have a different
view of things. I'm sure he will.

01:47:33.079 --> 01:47:37.387
There is one other interest that you
and I discussed many, many years ago

01:47:37.420 --> 01:47:44.107
and that's your interest in
photography and in the fine art. Well, I have

01:47:44.140 --> 01:47:49.097
quit doing anything with photography.
I'm no good at it. When I saw Jon

01:47:49.130 --> 01:47:55.267
Schaffer's work. I knew that I wasn't
going to do photography. Have you

01:47:55.300 --> 01:47:58.227
seen his work?

01:47:58.260 --> 01:48:02.307
And he of course he knows all of the
great photographers. And they have

01:48:02.340 --> 01:48:08.336
that wonderful museum at the
University of Arizona. And I just concluded

01:48:08.369 --> 01:48:12.647
that carrying that thing around and
taking the junk I was was not

01:48:12.680 --> 01:48:17.227
profitable. And I saw more if I just
looked than if I tried to take

01:48:17.260 --> 01:48:22.706
pictures. So I quit. But your interest
at the time when we talked was that

01:48:22.739 --> 01:48:27.717
was before the photography collection
went, you know, to the USA And I

01:48:27.750 --> 01:48:32.147
remember just your interest in it.

01:48:32.180 --> 01:48:36.677
Oh, I think it's a wonderful art and I
enjoy looking at photographs. I

01:48:36.710 --> 01:48:40.607
just find I'm not very good at doing
it. I'm better at making furniture

01:48:40.640 --> 01:48:45.496
than it shooting pictures. Well,
that's a pretty good talent. More useful

01:48:45.529 --> 01:48:51.836
to. Probably not necessarily when you
retired. You left Arizona? Yes. Why

01:48:51.869 --> 01:48:56.937
did you come back? Because Benito
wanted to?

01:48:56.970 --> 01:48:59.366
Mhm.

01:48:59.399 --> 01:49:04.597
That's the only reason you didn't want
to. No, I didn't. Where, where

01:49:04.630 --> 01:49:12.630
would you rather be? Ah I would rather
be either in Boulder or Eugene or

01:49:14.260 --> 01:49:17.036
swim Washington.

01:49:17.069 --> 01:49:24.017
And why does bonita like it here?
Because she has a network of friends and

01:49:24.050 --> 01:49:28.607
she likes warm weather

01:49:28.640 --> 01:49:34.756
and flat pavement. I'm with her about
the warm weather.

01:49:34.789 --> 01:49:39.946
Anything else that we should have talk
to? Ah No. And I'm not going to

01:49:39.979 --> 01:49:43.289
tell you the things you shouldn't have
askedabout