WEBVTT

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It is Tuesday 17 September 2002 and I'm pam Stevenson and we're here at

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ASU doing an interview for the issue
retirees association living history

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video project and um today um our
interviewees is Bill, why don't you give

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me your full name? And so you can
pronounce it correctly? Oh that's just

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right, that's right. You did a very
good job. Okay and what is your full

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name? William? Mm

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that the japanese name. And when I was
baptized back in about 24 then I

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selected William.

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When were you born? 019 12 September
six. And where were you going? I was

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born in Oxnard California. That's in
ventura County in California near the

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ocean. Why don't you tell me a little
bit about, did you grow up there and

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tell me about your parents know
shortly thereafter why? My father passed

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away then we were we moved to Los
Angeles. So we were in Los Angeles until

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we moved to Arizona in 19 and 29 When
the state was only 17 years old. I

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think the state became a state 1912.

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Yeah. Mhm.

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Put a sign on the door. Oh okay.

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When? Okay. Um

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Well tell me a little about your
family, what did they do for a living?

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What brought them to Arizona? Well for
really? But they were from japan

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and my father I think worked in the
sugar beets on Oxnard California was

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known for sugar beets and let's see
what else, There are just a couple of

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crops but now I think there quite an
agricultural

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center as well as many other things
because they're right next to the

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ocean I think Oxnard, I've been there
for years. So you actually, your

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boyhood was in Los Angeles. Yes, I was
there until it was time to come to

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high school and that's 29 was around
depression. There were many people

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that were probably moving around try
to improve their livelihood or

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situation for employment and things of
that nature. And my parents were

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barbers,

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so they had a shop in Los Angeles and
when we came here, why my mother and

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father started, my stepfather then
started barbershop and that's uh when I

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started high school that was in, when
we moved here in the middle of the

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summer

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and then I had a part time job in a
grocery store where I was almost like

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the modern day carry out.

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So we were in the city and there were
quite a few japanese families, but

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they were mostly on the west side such
as west phoenix or Tillerson peoria

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in that area of farming and most of
them farmed quite an acreage

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and that was mostly there work

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And I attended Phoenix Union when
finished Union was about 4000, which was

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quite large that we claim to be
probably the largest, the worst of the

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Mississippi of course during that
period, probably most of the cities were

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quite small no matter where you went
and phoenix was, I would guess about

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, I don't know maybe 50 or smaller but
a large area.

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And during that period, of course,
most of the city, I don't think any

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city in the valley here that had more
than one high school. They were all

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like Tempe high had one and Mesa had
one Peoria had one and so forth. So

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it wasn't until later, probably

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close to the wartime, probably when
the city were starting to grow and it

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really grow after the war. As you can
recall. What did you think of

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phoenix when you first moved here?
Well, I'll tell you the truth, there

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was no way for us to evaluate. We were
in Los Angeles that was quite large.

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But compared to today's standards
were, it was quite small also. And I

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think Los Angeles started over there
by the little spanish village that

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they have all the, is that it? And,
and group and people there no matter

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where they live, they always went
Quote downtown and downtown was about

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seven and broadway and that's where
all the stores were movie houses and

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everything else. And if you lived away
from there, we always caught the uh

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, streetcar and came in. It's odd that
the streetcar was quite common.

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They eliminated them. We did that here
and now they're talking about

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putting it back. So we've come clear
around the cycle. So when your family

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moved to phoenix, where did they live?
They lived like on my, on north

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street, it's, it's near where the
baseball probably complex is located in

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that general area. So there were quite
a few chinese restaurants there in

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barbershops and some grocery stores
and so forth. They didn't, we didn't

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have very many places like safeways
and such. They may have had some

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smaller ones, but not very many.

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So I can I recall when I was working
during the summer and that was in the

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summer before I started high school
that the indians and mostly indians

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would come with the buckboard loaded
with mesquite and other kinds of wood

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to sell and then they would have a
little money and they came to the

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grocery store and then bought their
groceries such as sacks of flour sacks

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of rice sacks of this and that. And it
was my assignment to go into the,

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the stacks are flower I guess and then
bring it out and that was a carry

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out boy.

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So that was about it. And then soon
the summer was over. Then school

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started and I started school at
finished union. And there were very few

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japanese students there because as I
mentioned they were farmers and they

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would be attending Tillerson high or
Glendale high School peoria.

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And I don't think there were very many
other to Allison schools other than

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those in the early days

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I have a question. So you were one of
the few japanese that, well one of

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the few, there must have been just two
or three

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and then of course, uh I didn't know
much about sports program but I

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thought I would like to play and as I
recall that we had a fence around

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the practice field and I was outside,
I didn't know anyone because these

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other boys, most of them went to the
elementary schools around phoenix

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union and they knew each other as a
friend or opponents from the other

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school. You see they're all buddies,
so to speak.

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So I wasn't much of a ford
individuals. So I said to myself, well there's

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so many boys, it appeared that the
field was just covered with players

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because you have 4000 and half of them
would be male trying to play

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football. So I just went home.
However, I was in the P. E. Class

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in the P. E. Class. My class was
taught by third team, we had first team,

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second team, third team in intramurals

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and this coach Uh and teacher was the
coach for the 3rd team. Now we would

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play flag football and they would give
me the ball. This big ruffians

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would go and knock them down, then I
would run.

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So the coach said, well why don't you
go out for football? I told him that

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I didn't have any friends that I
thought I would go out next year. He said

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no monday you go and check out a
uniform and go out and report to coach

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mccomb, MS coach mccomb was a second
team coach. So on monday I I went to

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check out and naturally I was sort of
small and, and it didn't weigh very

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much and the uniforms were quite large
and they were long here and short

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here mostly long and they didn't have
any shoes. I think I wore around six

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and I were about nine now, Size six
and they're all too large for me.

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In another situation where they would
probably go out and buy one

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immediately, but they didn't do that.
So they gave me some tinny shoes. In

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fact, that's what they did when I came
here. I was still small when I came

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here

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then, let's see that was about monday
and Tuesday now that the second team

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, he usually played on Fridays, I
think it was in the third team will play

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thursday and the varsity would play
friday.

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So I recall now we went to buckeye to
play and they took me along so I got

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to play a little bit and then we came
home and that that's how I got

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started was on a second team and I was
with the second team all my

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freshman year.

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Well, I can stop there because if you
want my sports, I can continue on

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that. Well, I think we need your
sports isn't that, you know, kind of how

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you got started. Well, okay, next year
coach Robinson, that was the coach

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and we only had one coach For team,
the second team coach and 3rd team

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coach. Now, I, I don't know how many
they have, even in high school, it's

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all specialized but we didn't have to
platoon you. So you, so one coach

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could probably handle it. Okay. He
formed a big circle and then he came

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into the circle and then he said, now
all of you were on the first team,

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on the varsity team. Come over here,
see, so the rest of us are still

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sitting there and then he would walk
around slowly and then he was a tall

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fellow with long fingers and and uh

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long arms you see, and then he would
go you over there, you over there. So

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I was selected as a sophomore and I
think I was the only sophomore on the

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team.

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So that was sort of the story. And
that year we probably had one of the

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best teams that the school has ever
had. Mhm And we won most of our games.

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And usually after season we would play
someone from another state, such

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as Colorado. Champions of Colorado
would come in and champion of uh, Utah

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would come in and people like that on
our schedule, We always played the

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freshman team from Arizona and from N
A. U. I don't think they were strong

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enough and we didn't play uh Tempe
teachers.

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And then on the schedule, not in one
year, but most Each year we played 18

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from like El Paso or last Cruises.
Albuquerque San Diego santa Barbara

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Long Beach uh and teams like that for
competition that we were fairly

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strong enough. Then our big rivalry
was like Tucson because the city was

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fairly good size, only one high school
and Mesa was another one. Those

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three were probably the strong teams.
However, we did play like Yuma and

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Glendale, that's about it off and on.
What position were you playing? Well

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? I played in a single wing, so I was
a tailback.

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Now that's equivalent to, I'm not
really quarterbacks because he passed

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and some of the good ones past and
punted and ran with the ball. They

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called him a triple trap

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now that I played the tail back and
now they still call them running back

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, I guess that's what they call them
today, but we didn't have a

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quarterback under the center, you see,
that was, we had a person that was

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pretty close to that, but it always
shifted out. That's what they called

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the T formation now you see, but they
didn't stay there. There was here

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here here and they shifted and this
one became the blocky blocking back

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and the wingback was also blocking
back. So that was your sophomore year

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in high school. How did, how did your
junior and senior years ago? Senior

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junior and senior year went a little
better because the tail bag was very

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much of a top player. He was a triple
threat. He used to pass and punt and

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run and I think when he graduated he
went to Notre dame. So that shows

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that we had a pretty good team and we
played san Diego and they had

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Warburton who went to sc and became
all american

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and then uh, so we used to have a
pretty good team for a long, long time

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until more schools build up And at one
time I think Phoenix had close to

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10 high school. So of course if we
only had one high school, the strength

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would still be there. But when you
divide the people up, Talent up in 10

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schools or eight schools or whatever.
Incidentally in Tempe We have six

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high schools now. That's quite a few
for us. It's really a small school

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and I mean the area compared to Mesa,
I think they have three or 4 now and

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the coming area I think would be like
Gilbert, you know, they have big

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farms there and they're just spreading
out. I think they have three or

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four high schools already and I don't
things within a few years, they'll

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probably have, I mean 3, 4 more easy.
Yeah, A lot different from what was

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back then. Yes. So that just gives a
little background. So what year did

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you graduate from Phoenix Union
Phoenix? 33,

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I went there from 29 to 33.

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What about, were you a good student
other than the sports? Well I wasn't

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that good a student. I don't think
well we I think that so of course we're

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like algebra and geometry and things
like that. You could memorize my

00:16:11.309 --> 00:16:18.106
homeroom teacher was a math teacher
and she mentioned to me no way you can

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learn all these plays and all the
positions and you should do better in

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algebra. I can remember telling me but
her homeroom was men the boys, she

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liked the boys and the sports you
know. So that's the reason why I was in

00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:37.967
her home room and that's why she knew
you were memorizing all this other

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stuff. Right? Why can't you memorize
these theorems when you can remember

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all these plays? Boy? She had
something there.

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So what did you plan to do when you
got out of high school? Well I'll have

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to give you a little story on that.
That's that's the part of the

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beginning of my thesis there. Okay.
There were very few jobs for anyone.

00:17:06.940 --> 00:17:09.806
 Remember there's a

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hard times remember people were
jumping out of windows and banks were

00:17:15.069 --> 00:17:17.607
being closed

00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:24.097
so the hard time and teaching was a
good field because they still needed

00:17:24.130 --> 00:17:26.207
teachers

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especially around here in the mining
towns you see And

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I shouldn't quote the price but they
weren't paying very much. But that

00:17:37.549 --> 00:17:41.607
was relative. Also a dollar. Could you
could buy quite a bit more than you

00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:44.006
can today.

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You didn't you didn't want to become a
barber. Like your family. Well they

00:17:47.990 --> 00:17:55.907
suggested that you see but I didn't
pursue it. Ah They sent me to

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Barbara's school and I was ready for
for that. But then by then I was

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interested in sports probably. So I
just stayed with it.

00:18:08.140 --> 00:18:13.516
So when I graduated I had a couple of
good friends, one in particular paul

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Guthrie was his name and we were and
that's part of my start coming here.

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We were on I think about 2nd street in
Washington and I remember there was

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a crest right on the corner and that's
when indian ladies used to come

00:18:29.230 --> 00:18:32.816
with a blanket and all the goodies and
sit right there to sell. Can you

00:18:32.849 --> 00:18:38.556
imagine that? That's a long time ago.
Well we were standing there then a

00:18:38.589 --> 00:18:43.736
car without the top and two persons we
didn't know who they were, they

00:18:43.769 --> 00:18:49.607
pulled up alongside and that was Vern
Tuckey and tuffy griffin, the

00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:54.147
student body president and the captain
of the football team they drove up

00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:58.937
and started to visit. Of course I
think they knew that we played for

00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:05.127
phoenix and we usually have some
pretty good teams. So eventually they

00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:09.707
said how would you like to go to
school and play football and get an

00:19:09.740 --> 00:19:11.806
education?

00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:16.907
Well we didn't know what we want to
do. What kind of a job you see because

00:19:16.940 --> 00:19:21.947
all the jobs for just about out
weren't hiring any to do anything other

00:19:21.980 --> 00:19:25.407
than probably in the farm.

00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:29.397
So they said we'll jump in and we'll
take you to the campus. That that's

00:19:29.430 --> 00:19:36.036
how it started. And they drove us down
to College Avenue and right in

00:19:36.069 --> 00:19:39.006
front of old main

00:19:39.039 --> 00:19:43.637
it was a gate. They used to have steel
gates because they didn't want

00:19:43.670 --> 00:19:47.857
people to be running around that
didn't belong on the campus you see

00:19:47.890 --> 00:19:52.677
especially for the ladies. So they
came right up and I remember coming up

00:19:52.710 --> 00:19:59.806
almost to the point of oh mein and
there was a flagpole. I could still see

00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:04.637
that. Well then there was an entrance
we entered and it lowered a little

00:20:04.670 --> 00:20:10.586
bit and that was not really a seller
but it was a lower floor at that time

00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:15.486
I think in old Main they talked
probably most of the courses there there

00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:21.607
were a few other buildings but that
one held the most.

00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:26.347
So we went down and then we met Mr
Southern. His name is on there and he

00:20:26.380 --> 00:20:30.726
was an english professor. And also he
was a faculty representative for the

00:20:30.759 --> 00:20:33.006
athletics

00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:38.526
so we thought they thought he was a
very important person to meet. So

00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:43.336
we're both down and we shook hands and
so forth. And then Mr Southern

00:20:43.369 --> 00:20:48.246
recall I can hear him say this aren't
you kind of small and you might

00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:53.336
aren't you afraid you get hurt? So I
guess all I could say was I'm gonna

00:20:53.369 --> 00:21:00.006
take my chances you see so that was
about it and during that period I

00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:03.607
think I was

00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.677
I weighed about 242

00:21:06.710 --> 00:21:10.576
43, something like that. When I
started I was In high school I was about

00:21:10.609 --> 00:21:12.907
130

00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:20.940
5 36 not very big, but I thought now
my legs are not very good. But I had

00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.286
boasting, I had pretty good legs, the
strength you see and I didn't have

00:21:26.319 --> 00:21:31.687
much on the upper part but my legs
used to take me. I wasn't that fast

00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:39.387
either, but boasting again, I was
pretty quick so I got this and I could

00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:43.107
give you more ah

00:21:43.140 --> 00:21:47.657
points to to point out that wasn't
that fast, I just give it to you

00:21:47.690 --> 00:21:52.697
quickly in high school then I was
pretty fast. So the boys said they were

00:21:52.730 --> 00:21:57.107
going to run the 100 yard dash. So
they put out all the fast boys in there

00:21:57.140 --> 00:22:03.740
And I lead for about 50, 60 yards you
see and pretty soon almost everyone.

00:22:04.339 --> 00:22:06.339
So I probably ended up 5th, 6th or 7th or something like that. So that

00:22:09.059 --> 00:22:14.586
proved to me that I wasn't very fast
for any distance, but I was fairly

00:22:14.619 --> 00:22:22.407
quick at a short distance giving it
this, that's how I got by.

00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:28.367
So okay, now as far as buildings and I
think I have a note there, it must

00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:32.836
have been about a half a dozen
buildings, but there were more dormitories

00:22:32.869 --> 00:22:36.937
and I think dormitories because they
would cater the school cater to the

00:22:36.970 --> 00:22:41.976
ladies you see and they want to
protect them and you probably heard this

00:22:42.009 --> 00:22:45.387
that I think During the week they had
to be in by I think it was 9:00

00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:47.506
PMclock

00:22:47.539 --> 00:22:51.996
and then a child's had a house mother
you see. And some of us boys would

00:22:52.029 --> 00:22:59.427
go and uh huh to the guest room such
as this and then visit with the young

00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:04.697
ladies and about nine o'clock one
she'll come and said boys, you know it's

00:23:04.730 --> 00:23:10.207
nine o'clock and off we went.

00:23:10.240 --> 00:23:14.776
It's quite different today.

00:23:14.809 --> 00:23:20.107
I don't think so. In fact I think I
was the only one lived in a dormitory

00:23:20.140 --> 00:23:24.407
even in high school. I think there was
just a few

00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:28.286
but I think I was the first to play
sports. I played football and

00:23:28.319 --> 00:23:31.806
basketball and baseball

00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:38.907
and I played uh tracked because that
went on at the same time as baseball.

00:23:38.940 --> 00:23:43.927
However, we had this outstanding
player that between innings he would go

00:23:43.960 --> 00:23:46.847
and high jump you see in the window,
high jump and it would still be

00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.607
playing baseball at the same time.

00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:56.566
Pretty resourceful. His name is
flipping and if you look back in the

00:23:56.599 --> 00:24:01.766
records while he's one of the greatest
and that was his backup. So you can

00:24:01.799 --> 00:24:06.786
see I didn't get to play very much
that one year. What was football your

00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:11.746
major sports? Well, yes, in a way it
was. What were the uniforms like that

00:24:11.779 --> 00:24:17.806
? Well let's see where shall we go
high school even in college I think

00:24:17.839 --> 00:24:24.717
mostly uniformed come to the shirt,
the jersey was all wool, you know, and

00:24:24.750 --> 00:24:29.786
long sleeve, they're all short sleeve
now because at the time they were

00:24:29.819 --> 00:24:33.387
rolling it up and someone, we're
cutting them, they didn't want them, then

00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:37.707
they would fall and get all skin.

00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:42.927
But anyway, they were all wall at one
time and they had numbers in the

00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:47.806
back, but it wasn't required to have
in the front.

00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:51.457
So in the front they had kind of
ribbing like things, I don't know how to

00:24:51.490 --> 00:24:57.476
explain it. It was sewn on there, kind
of V. And then they had some on the

00:24:57.509 --> 00:25:02.256
arms right here, that was mostly for
the boys that carried the ball. You

00:25:02.289 --> 00:25:06.697
see that would kind of hold the ball a
little better. So you had it here

00:25:06.730 --> 00:25:12.157
here and here we have a lot of padding
like they do now. Well, I don't

00:25:12.190 --> 00:25:15.897
think the equipment was as good. Like
the shoulder pads, they were just

00:25:15.930 --> 00:25:21.187
almost a couple of pieces of leather
and now they have a lot of shock

00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:27.397
absorbent techniques in their helmets.
The old helmets were just leather.

00:25:27.430 --> 00:25:32.697
I think it's almost like those flyers
were just a piece of leather with a

00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:35.407
little padding

00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:41.637
and let's see what else. And pants,
there were one piece then it became

00:25:41.670 --> 00:25:46.076
two pieces where the pants and then
they had hit pads were separate, you

00:25:46.109 --> 00:25:50.707
can put them on and you put your pants
on top

00:25:50.740 --> 00:25:55.976
and I guess they had the thigh pads
that used to slip in there and I think

00:25:56.009 --> 00:26:02.367
they still have that the shoes shoes
were high top, they didn't have the

00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:08.046
low top, high top and there were
leather cleats, they were kind of

00:26:08.079 --> 00:26:12.736
rectangle and there were large at the
top and then came down not to a

00:26:12.769 --> 00:26:17.786
point but came down and there were
layers of leather like this and they

00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:22.207
were just nailed onto the soul

00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:26.806
and then then they became later on
became this plastic kind you just screw

00:26:26.839 --> 00:26:32.316
and now they were most anything and
and they probably have, I don't know

00:26:32.349 --> 00:26:40.306
several pairs of different like wet
field grass field and artificial and

00:26:40.339 --> 00:26:45.786
so the equipment probably have to
outfit each individual with several

00:26:45.819 --> 00:26:48.806
pairs of shoes.

00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:54.016
So you came to to A. S. U. Was it
primarily because he wanted to play

00:26:54.049 --> 00:26:59.187
football or did you come here to
become a teacher? Well I don't think the

00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:04.266
thought of teaching came to our mind
our mind at least because there were

00:27:04.299 --> 00:27:10.657
very few teachers in elements school
men at least they didn't even

00:27:10.690 --> 00:27:15.937
principals I think they were all
women. Now men are in there. They broke

00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:18.506
the line.

00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:25.006
So it wasn't until towards the end
when uh Teachers had a pretty good job.

00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.907
They didn't make a whole lot. Remember
some of the girls were making $800

00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:32.506
the school year.

00:27:32.539 --> 00:27:37.957
You know you make a lot more in a week
I think. But you see for each

00:27:37.990 --> 00:27:42.006
dollar you could buy a lot more

00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:45.526
like in 30

00:27:45.559 --> 00:27:52.877
not 33 In the early 30s you can buy
the top chevy And of course they only

00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:58.347
had two colors I think black and
maroon I think at that time you didn't,

00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:02.006
you couldn't get red or whatever.

00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:07.607
And this one had to wire wheels and
four wire wheels and two in a well in

00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:14.996
the trunk and that was 600 and $35 or
something like that. That's the best

00:28:15.029 --> 00:28:17.407
they made.

00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:22.907
You can hardly buy a set of tires for
that today.

00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:29.756
Yeah. Well, so what I'm a little
confused of why um, the Arizona State

00:28:29.789 --> 00:28:34.947
Teachers College even had a football
team if it was mostly women. Well, I

00:28:34.980 --> 00:28:42.207
think they had some, but then we
didn't have it so accelerated yet and

00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:46.336
most of the boys just came, I just
came to school. Some came to play

00:28:46.369 --> 00:28:50.496
football probably. But we didn't have
a big schedule. We didn't travel

00:28:50.529 --> 00:28:57.107
hardly any place if we did. We were in
a I usually use verses

00:28:57.140 --> 00:29:03.336
the seats were like these bus lines
would turn them in, you see. And the

00:29:03.369 --> 00:29:09.006
and the seats and then the backs were
all the springs will be showing. And

00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:14.217
another thing is we had a, I can't
think of the name right now, but right

00:29:14.250 --> 00:29:22.250
over here on university and mail just
on this side was a garage

00:29:23.829 --> 00:29:29.816
and he was a good mechanic. He used to
take care of our cars, busses and

00:29:29.849 --> 00:29:33.687
then for a while he drove because when
it broke down then he could fix it

00:29:33.720 --> 00:29:36.207
en route

00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:41.107
and when we went to Flagstaff to play,
we had to take aren't Yarnell Hill

00:29:41.140 --> 00:29:47.907
? You know you know that okay going up
the hill, I'll start to steam and

00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:52.996
and then the coach would have the bus
driver take it up a few miles. All

00:29:53.029 --> 00:29:57.546
of us would get out and then we would
walk or if it was flat we were on a

00:29:57.579 --> 00:30:02.907
few plays and and then catch up with a
bus and continue.

00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:08.076
Yeah. Not quite like it is today. Huh?
How long would it take you to get

00:30:08.109 --> 00:30:13.707
from Flagstaff? It would take almost a
full day. You see from there we

00:30:13.740 --> 00:30:18.897
would go to what's that town on?

00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:26.276
I used to know it's a famous road that
goes across

00:30:26.309 --> 00:30:32.847
as Ash Fork I think see from Prescott
we will go straight and take ash for

00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:37.006
cutting and turned and go to Flagstaff

00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:43.097
because of Black Canyon. Yes, there
was a Black canyon. It was real narrow

00:30:43.130 --> 00:30:49.107
and bumpy you see. So we didn't take
that wasn't even paved yet. Oh no, no

00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:55.697
, no, no they're not. They're not
married when they paved that. You know

00:30:55.730 --> 00:31:00.177
from phoenix to flags that then flags
that became a city I think because

00:31:00.210 --> 00:31:04.627
you could run up there and you know
what a couple of hours.

00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:07.536
Tell me a little bit more of what a.
S. U. Was like when you first came

00:31:07.569 --> 00:31:12.276
here describe it for me a little more.
Well let's see what kind of

00:31:12.309 --> 00:31:19.117
description would you like. First of
all they had uh iron fencing almost

00:31:19.150 --> 00:31:24.806
all the way around. I don't know
whether you heard, you know where

00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:30.197
whether on old main street by
university that was all wrought iron. You

00:31:30.230 --> 00:31:35.597
see all the way around the campus and
to enter oh mein from where we came

00:31:35.630 --> 00:31:40.016
in that big gate and they would lock
it up at night

00:31:40.049 --> 00:31:45.157
and it was protected that way mostly
for the ladies I think. How many

00:31:45.190 --> 00:31:49.766
students were there here then let's
see what did I have there? 800 and

00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:55.907
something wasn't it? Something like
that was in 33. Now

00:31:55.940 --> 00:32:03.697
Now we have about what 50 1000 or
something that's including the east and

00:32:03.730 --> 00:32:10.447
west. Um Okay well tell me about the,
who was the president when you came

00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:15.246
here. Okay. I think I started to tell
you about that. They had some

00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:20.657
changes made and it just happened that
when I came to school in 33 we had

00:32:20.690 --> 00:32:25.347
the new president dr Gammage and new
athletic director and he coached

00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:33.380
football, basketball and and where was
it track I think. No, he didn't

00:32:34.750 --> 00:32:39.357
call coach baseball. He had tracked
but he was a real gentleman and

00:32:39.390 --> 00:32:43.627
scholar and he had all the
preparations of physical education because he

00:32:43.660 --> 00:32:50.907
went to school back east midwest where
he was really trained

00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:57.546
the very astute a good speaker and a
gentleman and a scholar and always

00:32:57.579 --> 00:33:02.316
remain within the rules of whatever it
was. He didn't deviate, what was

00:33:02.349 --> 00:33:05.717
his name?

00:33:05.750 --> 00:33:11.607
Rudy Leveque was his name but he
became my mentor. So he looked after me

00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:17.447
all the while and the president was
very good from this standpoint that He

00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:22.576
did two things. He looked after the
students and I would say almost every

00:33:22.609 --> 00:33:29.127
student had some part of a job and the
school was run by students like

00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:34.647
janitor and gardening and that sort of
thing. I had I was a gardener's

00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:41.736
helper and I helped um the plumbers
had all kinds of jobs and we all did

00:33:41.769 --> 00:33:47.967
this so you had part time jobs and
full time jobs full time. We're a

00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:52.897
little hard to come by Because the
room and board I think you saw there

00:33:52.930 --> 00:33:56.217
was 21:50.

00:33:56.250 --> 00:34:01.347
That's pretty good isn't it? Then the
registration fees and all that was

00:34:01.380 --> 00:34:09.380
very very nominal you see and you
could work that out. It was 2150 for

00:34:09.510 --> 00:34:16.907
every month you see but if you have a
full time job that would cover that.

00:34:16.940 --> 00:34:20.577
So what kind of job did you have? Well
I had to work, I'd work with the

00:34:20.610 --> 00:34:25.276
gardeners, I work with the carpenters,
I worked with the plumbers you see

00:34:25.309 --> 00:34:29.867
you didn't always stay, you probably
they needed some one to put some

00:34:29.900 --> 00:34:34.767
threads on pipes. Have you ever done
that? That's a slow process not to

00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:41.506
have machines that do that, but this
was hand and he may work all day,

00:34:41.539 --> 00:34:48.456
just maybe a couple of inches thread.
Yeah. And it used to be, it's called

00:34:48.489 --> 00:34:55.367
Lyceum now it's on the campus, it was
right over there at that end and I

00:34:55.400 --> 00:35:00.137
think he realizes tunnels all around
under the campus there you see and

00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:04.387
you could walk, walk in their, in
their pipes and all kinds of things

00:35:04.420 --> 00:35:09.296
underneath that. Then they built a new
one that was after I graduated, I

00:35:09.329 --> 00:35:16.217
think on there that knew and we used
to have the old heaters and

00:35:16.250 --> 00:35:22.086
classrooms when he came in and some
water came in. It would be popping and

00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:27.606
popping like firecrackers going off

00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:33.606
a lot different than it is today. Oh
yes, got to have refrigeration today.

00:35:33.639 --> 00:35:38.157
So tell me a little bit about,
eventually I got down on here about the

00:35:38.190 --> 00:35:44.247
dining hall dining hall. Let's see
where dining hall would be. Just south

00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:52.280
of romaine. It was maybe still there
that it was run by. We called him on

00:35:52.909 --> 00:35:59.017
park. Kraus. Kraus was the name of the
couple and one, he was a chef and

00:35:59.050 --> 00:36:04.767
he cooks and the wife, she took care
of everything else. Usually she would

00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:09.597
stand at one entrance and see that you
were neatly dressed, not dressed up

00:36:09.630 --> 00:36:17.630
but neat if you weren't, she'll send
you back and no dinner, no lunch.

00:36:17.630 --> 00:36:22.557
Okay in the dining hall then. Um, you
had assigned seats, that's a teacher

00:36:22.590 --> 00:36:29.947
, uh, table manners and how you would
sit at home And I think there were

00:36:29.980 --> 00:36:37.980
eight, 3, 3 and head and The bottom
part, one was the father and one was

00:36:38.329 --> 00:36:43.606
the mother is the and you always said
pass the potatoes please. And she

00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:48.227
would walk around, walk around and so
you kind of tap you a little bit if

00:36:48.260 --> 00:36:53.506
you're out of line. And when we had
great food, we always scooped it out

00:36:53.539 --> 00:36:58.666
with the, I still do that.

00:36:58.699 --> 00:37:01.197
And

00:37:01.230 --> 00:37:08.197
okay. The best, best job in the, in
the dining hall was the head waiter

00:37:08.230 --> 00:37:12.927
headwaiter. He was standing at the
front would have a bell like the school

00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:18.856
bell And everyone when they came in,
they stood behind their chair. They

00:37:18.889 --> 00:37:25.497
didn't come and sit down. I stood back
there. Then then you had, you would

00:37:25.530 --> 00:37:29.736
alternate boys and girls, boys and
girls you see. So you, you always say

00:37:29.769 --> 00:37:35.626
please pass the potatoes or whatever.
Mm hmm. And fellows like to sit next

00:37:35.659 --> 00:37:40.586
to the girls because the girls didn't
eat as much and then they got the

00:37:40.619 --> 00:37:43.296
little extras.

00:37:43.329 --> 00:37:48.807
Okay. The head waiter was a prime job.
He would be in front And no one sat

00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:54.586
until he rang the bell and everyone
sat down. All the waiters that brought

00:37:54.619 --> 00:38:01.416
the food from the kitchen out. They
had to wear a clean white shirt every

00:38:01.449 --> 00:38:09.287
day, but they had it washed by the
cafeteria there. That was a privilege.

00:38:09.320 --> 00:38:14.077
So some of the boys like to save their
shirts you know for the weekend

00:38:14.110 --> 00:38:18.057
when they took their young ladies out.
I want to have a white shirt. So

00:38:18.090 --> 00:38:24.186
sometimes they were the same 12 days
and that's where they'll get caught.

00:38:24.219 --> 00:38:26.887
 But Mrs Krauss

00:38:26.920 --> 00:38:32.787
and that waiter probably didn't get
his meal that day.

00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:40.280
Another thing Mrs Cross did, she was
in charge of of scholarship and jobs.

00:38:40.420 --> 00:38:42.420
So some of the jobs I had was go to the library and sweep and dust the

00:38:45.219 --> 00:38:50.506
books and you heard that and I did
that And then we had a head janitor and

00:38:50.539 --> 00:38:57.186
he would come and open the door at
5:30. We worked till 5 30 to 6 37

00:38:57.219 --> 00:39:01.387
o'clock And the dining hall opened at
7:00.

00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:07.557
So we worked and then we hurried to
eat. So that was a ritual. And all the

00:39:07.590 --> 00:39:13.827
buildings on the campus were done by
mostly students and plumbing and not

00:39:13.860 --> 00:39:18.497
not the fine work but rough work they
did. And the gardening I happened to

00:39:18.530 --> 00:39:22.517
be the gardener's helper and I worked
around the yard I heard at the

00:39:22.550 --> 00:39:26.617
dining hall you had to be on time.
Couldn't be late. No no she'll be there

00:39:26.650 --> 00:39:30.117
at the door and then when it's time to
close while she's not there at the

00:39:30.150 --> 00:39:36.006
door so you don't get it in get in.
She was quite a lady and they finally

00:39:36.039 --> 00:39:41.526
moved away to the coast. Forget the
name of the town. But but I think they

00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:45.967
passed away naturally by now. But what
was the food like in the food was

00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:51.887
fine food was fine. But the football
players, they used to complain a lot

00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:56.336
and I used to tell them now you
shouldn't complain because you're not

00:39:56.369 --> 00:40:00.557
paying anything for you. It's free.
You have to be happy to just go eat.

00:40:00.590 --> 00:40:05.896
So I didn't complain. I just ate
because it was good food. And then we had

00:40:05.929 --> 00:40:09.727
a farm right over there where Gammage
Auditorium. That used to be the

00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:16.916
college farm. We kept horses and cows
and some of the feed and the garbage

00:40:16.949 --> 00:40:20.677
that was left over at the dining hall.
They would take it over there and

00:40:20.710 --> 00:40:25.166
give it to the pigs you see. And then
we will get the milk over there and

00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:29.177
they would bring it back and make ice
cream.

00:40:29.210 --> 00:40:36.577
So is that a special treat when you
got that special special?

00:40:36.610 --> 00:40:40.367
Tell me a little bit more about the
doctor Gammage. What was he like? Well

00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:46.956
, I didn't say enough about him. Uh he
was very, very good from the

00:40:46.989 --> 00:40:51.197
standpoint of building any opportunity
that he would build some buildings

00:40:51.230 --> 00:40:56.836
on the campus you see. And the other
thing which was not noticeable. But

00:40:56.869 --> 00:41:01.477
very much of a help to students. And
now is the jobs that he permitted

00:41:01.510 --> 00:41:07.166
Students to have part time jobs that
might only be worth $10 and a couple

00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:11.267
of weeks or whatever it is. You see
the help the school and then you could

00:41:11.300 --> 00:41:15.947
work out many things. For instance, I
took industrial arts and I made a

00:41:15.980 --> 00:41:21.967
chest and I don't think I paid
anything. All the, not the labor, but the

00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:29.287
material, you see then I worked it off
and same thing with tuition and

00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:33.186
fees that gave us an opportunity to
work that off say during the summer

00:41:33.219 --> 00:41:39.126
before school started or even during
school. So I think that the damage

00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:45.947
was very complex and of education that
students that came here got the

00:41:45.980 --> 00:41:50.227
degrees and most of them naturally the
college of education was the only

00:41:50.260 --> 00:41:56.927
thing we had until quite some time
later. And when I was in here, I think

00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:00.816
that was the only thing. So we were
caught in there. If you want a degree

00:42:00.849 --> 00:42:06.367
and prepare for something, then we
took education.

00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:10.876
Did you know Dr Gammage personally?
Did everybody get to know? Oh yes,

00:42:10.909 --> 00:42:16.526
everyone knew the faculty and everyone
knew Dr Gammage and he would they

00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:23.947
see, I always thought I was on the
campus but ah where the old main is,

00:42:23.980 --> 00:42:30.217
you know, there's, there's a building
right over there, just east and

00:42:30.250 --> 00:42:36.296
south. Just a little bit. That's the
uh, where they keep their, their old

00:42:36.329 --> 00:42:41.197
records and things to keep over there
now. Archive right? And there's

00:42:41.230 --> 00:42:46.447
where the President's home was right
there. Now, if you could see if

00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:52.336
you're looking at that building from.
Oh mein, that's kind of a door right

00:42:52.369 --> 00:42:59.066
there like sort of a porch light
thing, you know, you, you can come out

00:42:59.099 --> 00:43:07.099
okay now when we graduated our
graduation was held right there. The the

00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:16.017
the stage was right there by that door
and and wooden seats right here and

00:43:16.050 --> 00:43:21.947
some wooden bleachers in the back for
parents to come, that that's where

00:43:21.980 --> 00:43:27.916
we used to have the graduation and
then of course the club now there used

00:43:27.949 --> 00:43:31.597
to be several different things I think
originally it was the science

00:43:31.630 --> 00:43:39.236
ability and it became english building
and it became ROTC building and I

00:43:39.269 --> 00:43:45.486
don't know what else, but today it's
the club, university club, university

00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:48.836
club. How many buildings were there on
campus to remember when you first?

00:43:48.869 --> 00:43:55.177
Okay, that was their whole main was
there and auditorium, you know where

00:43:55.210 --> 00:44:00.247
the english building is? The english
building is near the old main over

00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:05.407
there a little bit and it's a pretty
big building now but the auditorium

00:44:05.440 --> 00:44:10.146
used to be there and then it was
condemned,

00:44:10.179 --> 00:44:16.276
the basement was the women's uh pe
that that's where they worked out in uh

00:44:16.309 --> 00:44:21.947
in their classes underneath there but
it was condemned so it went down and

00:44:21.980 --> 00:44:25.986
they built the english building right
there, another building that was

00:44:26.019 --> 00:44:32.186
there was from english building
directly, almost a little bit to the left

00:44:32.219 --> 00:44:39.077
across College Avenue is is a building
still there that used to be like

00:44:39.110 --> 00:44:46.157
industrial arts building and down in
the basement used to be the bookstore

00:44:46.190 --> 00:44:53.776
now they have the training school,
pain training school used to be

00:44:53.809 --> 00:45:00.126
oh mein and you're looking south a
little bit to the north west over here

00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:07.666
was a training school where many of
the faculty Children came there,

00:45:07.699 --> 00:45:12.546
you know, Christine went there a short
time then I think she moved away to

00:45:12.579 --> 00:45:15.256
another school.

00:45:15.289 --> 00:45:18.657
Okay. And then alcohol

00:45:18.690 --> 00:45:22.006
and then there was a kind of a
playground right there and I think that's

00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:26.617
when they used, they used to play
football there before my time, right

00:45:26.650 --> 00:45:32.986
there. Then across the way was the new
physical education building and gym.

00:45:33.019 --> 00:45:40.467
The gym was over to the, to the west
of it, Jim west and then in the new

00:45:40.500 --> 00:45:47.157
gym and a swimming pool and the
women's building physical education.

00:45:47.190 --> 00:45:51.146
Where did they play football when you
were here? We played at irish field

00:45:51.179 --> 00:45:57.597
, irish field. Oh there's a picture
there. Someplace I was going to show

00:45:57.630 --> 00:46:02.396
you see if there's a picture there of
the stadium, it's called irish

00:46:02.429 --> 00:46:06.077
Stadium, irish

00:46:06.110 --> 00:46:12.407
irish field which was made by the,
before our time, the football coach, he

00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:17.916
engineered and built that and I
brought it so you can see that irish field

00:46:17.949 --> 00:46:24.356
, irish field was named after Mr
irish. He was a jack of all trades, he

00:46:24.389 --> 00:46:32.389
taught science and he was also a
registrar and he was a coach. I don't

00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:37.447
anything that no one else wanted. He
probably did it, irish field and they

00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:44.396
had lights that like telephone poles,
they use those and then the lights

00:46:44.429 --> 00:46:51.827
they were old fashioned. So that was
irish field. And today the business

00:46:51.860 --> 00:46:56.617
building, not the new one, but the
older building right across the way it

00:46:56.650 --> 00:47:03.416
was uh this place right there and we
didn't have a student union. Of

00:47:03.449 --> 00:47:06.947
course. Student union was

00:47:06.980 --> 00:47:11.927
just a makeshift place. Finally they
made one where students can go there

00:47:11.960 --> 00:47:16.767
and that would be across the mall from
the present student union, across

00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.236
the

00:47:19.269 --> 00:47:23.907
and there's where East hall used to be
there. That was for the men and

00:47:23.940 --> 00:47:30.186
they didn't have room. There was a
along the porch and you had canvas

00:47:30.219 --> 00:47:36.396
rolled down when it's cold and up when
it was form and the the bunks were

00:47:36.429 --> 00:47:42.157
aligned like in military. And where
did you live? I lived in alcohol. What

00:47:42.190 --> 00:47:45.506
was it like, describe it for me now
for all. You had a basement in the

00:47:45.539 --> 00:47:49.347
main and then upstairs.

00:47:49.380 --> 00:47:53.936
Okay downstairs, understand Before my
time used to be the cafeteria,

00:47:53.969 --> 00:47:57.447
before they had the other one
downstairs

00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:02.876
and that's across from the president's
mentioned and there's a street that

00:48:02.909 --> 00:48:09.606
goes by there And one of my job is
5:30 to sweep that. Then my broom would

00:48:09.639 --> 00:48:14.336
hit the curb and that would be quite
loud then.

00:48:14.369 --> 00:48:19.106
Well it wasn't intentional. But then
mrs Gamage, you know, there were two

00:48:19.139 --> 00:48:25.526
mrs Gamez number one. I made a
complaint that I made too much noise that I

00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:31.166
should quite see early in the morning.
It would make quite a sound? And as

00:48:31.199 --> 00:48:34.236
you go like this.

00:48:34.269 --> 00:48:38.706
And then we swept all the way to uh,

00:48:38.739 --> 00:48:44.706
no, no College avenue that long. That
was one of my jobs with want another

00:48:44.739 --> 00:48:47.396
buddy

00:48:47.429 --> 00:48:51.467
could be so noisy. What was your room
like at alcohol? You described the

00:48:51.500 --> 00:48:57.436
other hall was all just alcohol. We
were

00:48:57.469 --> 00:49:04.546
not in the basement. We were above,
but they were all open porches. In

00:49:04.579 --> 00:49:10.736
other words, you had this, this canvas
roll, you see, and they were two

00:49:10.769 --> 00:49:18.617
bunks on this way and I got the, I got
to have the small one, the lower

00:49:18.650 --> 00:49:23.896
one because I couldn't climb up to the
big one and my buddy used to go up

00:49:23.929 --> 00:49:28.697
there. He was taller, you see. So He
got the top one. So you didn't have

00:49:28.730 --> 00:49:34.086
individual rooms. Well there were
individual rooms, but just the two I

00:49:34.119 --> 00:49:38.356
think it was, they weren't the big
sleeping porch like, you know, that was

00:49:38.389 --> 00:49:43.767
East Hall. I found the picture here of
irish Stadium you want to describe

00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:49.276
again, you know, you were talking
about what the that it shows what the

00:49:49.309 --> 00:49:52.637
seats were like there

00:49:52.670 --> 00:49:56.787
and that was made by coach Mccreary. I
think he was also the football

00:49:56.820 --> 00:50:02.037
coach and taught physical education.
And finally, I think he went to

00:50:02.070 --> 00:50:04.126
Flagstaff

00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:11.037
before he retired. But I think it
gives a picture what are early stadium

00:50:11.070 --> 00:50:14.827
look like compared to what we have
today.

00:50:14.860 --> 00:50:20.217
So then they got a new stadium in
1936,

00:50:20.250 --> 00:50:24.677
Yes. Goodwin Stadium. Tell me about
that. How did that come about? Where

00:50:24.710 --> 00:50:32.026
was it? I don't think we own the land
on the so it's over there in the

00:50:32.059 --> 00:50:37.427
south and I think they bought it. Uh
and then built the stadium there.

00:50:37.460 --> 00:50:41.727
They built that first part on that
side and then they built this side and

00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:48.557
that was part of the work, work
progress, you know, after war, before the

00:50:48.590 --> 00:50:56.590
war. And that was 36. They were right,
it was over uh W. W. P. A. Project.

00:50:57.460 --> 00:51:01.986
So you had to have some educational
value. So then what they did was made

00:51:02.019 --> 00:51:07.856
a part of the upstairs with the
dormitory and downstairs was uh equipment

00:51:07.889 --> 00:51:12.456
and addressing quarters for the
football. And the other side. Of course

00:51:12.489 --> 00:51:16.927
that was made separately were the shop

00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:24.367
mr need was a professor there and
upstairs there for a while I think ROTC.

00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:28.227
 They were like the,

00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:34.526
what do you call them? Some Children
that no one wanted orphans sort of

00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:39.427
speak. See they were at the club, that
place, you see, they were that was

00:51:39.460 --> 00:51:44.916
ROTC. And then I think our TC was
quite embedded in the old main too for a

00:51:44.949 --> 00:51:51.117
while. And also the stadium. Uh the
stadium,

00:51:51.150 --> 00:51:53.927
Incidentally in 1936,

00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:57.506
I shouldn't tell you this, but I
played in a game in which we dedicated

00:51:57.539 --> 00:52:04.986
that That was my last year at 36 To my
class was 37. But that was a

00:52:05.019 --> 00:52:07.517
football game.

00:52:07.550 --> 00:52:12.557
Yeah. Well, tell me a little about
that. Well, I don't know. I think we

00:52:12.590 --> 00:52:16.947
won that game, but I can't tell you
very much about that. But it was a big

00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:21.936
thing for us to have a stadium, just
even one side

00:52:21.969 --> 00:52:27.407
didn't hold very many people, but it
was a stadium. And how did it get its

00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:35.440
name? Goodwin. Goodwin was one of the
pioneers in this in Tempe. And

00:52:37.550 --> 00:52:43.186
let's see, he was an architect and his
son, I think became an architect

00:52:43.219 --> 00:52:51.066
after him. But uh, there was a good
one before that, you see, he was

00:52:51.099 --> 00:52:58.316
instrumental in on the early days of
the political side of it.

00:52:58.349 --> 00:53:05.916
So that's why it's named after the
Garfield Good one, I think

00:53:05.949 --> 00:53:11.456
to sort of a pioneer in the city of
Tempe. And that stadium had a place

00:53:11.489 --> 00:53:15.316
for the players to change and
everything.

00:53:15.349 --> 00:53:23.349
No, no, I don't think that not, not
the original one, not the West Stadium.

00:53:24.050 --> 00:53:29.977
I think we're dressed over here. Kind
of the old gym. Good one. Stadium

00:53:30.010 --> 00:53:36.517
had that well. Uh, when they added the
W. P. A. On this side on the east

00:53:36.550 --> 00:53:44.307
side where they had dormitory and then
downstairs was, was the dressing

00:53:44.340 --> 00:53:50.847
quarters and showers. And then from
there we went to the big stadium. In

00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:56.356
fact after they, after we start using
that for a season or two at least

00:53:56.389 --> 00:54:01.276
for a season. We dressed, do we still
dress, you know, over here And then

00:54:01.309 --> 00:54:06.956
we caught a bus and we used to have
the siren and then uh, mortar police

00:54:06.989 --> 00:54:14.936
used to lead us. And that used to be a
big thing, The sirens and then we

00:54:14.969 --> 00:54:21.376
came a couple of blocks, you see, then
we were ready to play then get all

00:54:21.409 --> 00:54:26.006
the crowd excited that you're coming
up. What about are there any

00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:31.106
particular games that you remember as
a player that was outstanding?

00:54:31.139 --> 00:54:38.506
Well, it's hard to say all the games
were big for us

00:54:38.539 --> 00:54:44.497
actually not that big, but we were not
in the league like they are today.

00:54:44.530 --> 00:54:47.807
 That is when we played.

00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:53.916
So it was probably comparative, but
Arizona always had some pretty good

00:54:53.949 --> 00:54:58.407
players. You see, they were the
university

00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:03.296
and naturally most of the boys and
parents wanted their Children to go to

00:55:03.329 --> 00:55:08.206
the state university. And this is
probably true in almost every state,

00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:13.796
it's a little more what prestigious
and parents would like to say my son

00:55:13.829 --> 00:55:17.606
or daughter goes to the university

00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:22.066
when we didn't become a university of
quite some time.

00:55:22.099 --> 00:55:27.887
Incidentally, they fought us to the
nail and we had to put it up for a

00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:33.296
vote if it wasn't for that. We still
probably wouldn't have it. Did you?

00:55:33.329 --> 00:55:37.186
When you were playing? Did you ever
beat the university? Oh, not when when

00:55:37.219 --> 00:55:40.006
, when I was playing.

00:55:40.039 --> 00:55:45.657
The worst thing happened was in 46
after the war that we went to play down

00:55:45.690 --> 00:55:48.506
there and they beat us.

00:55:48.539 --> 00:55:53.367
What was it 67 or nothing or something
like that? And that's when everyone

00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:59.066
rallied from the president on down
that they will never disgrace is again

00:55:59.099 --> 00:56:04.566
, that's when the Sun Angels form, you
see, and they start putting in a

00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:10.006
little money to improve our program
and do a little more recruiting and

00:56:10.039 --> 00:56:13.827
that sort of thing. Then we thought
we'd better change the mascot. That's

00:56:13.860 --> 00:56:21.860
when we got the Sun devil. What was
the mascot when you were here?

00:56:21.889 --> 00:56:25.247
And many of the students didn't want
to change that. Well if you're a

00:56:25.280 --> 00:56:30.986
student and you had one, one mascot,
you said you didn't want to change,

00:56:31.019 --> 00:56:36.497
you'd like to keep it. But they
changed it, you see now we're Sun Devil

00:56:36.530 --> 00:56:38.997
then you had

00:56:39.030 --> 00:56:43.697
all kinds of organizations you see to
help

00:56:43.730 --> 00:56:49.447
donate. So when did you graduate then?
From the issue? Wasn't the issue

00:56:49.480 --> 00:56:56.146
then? What what? 37 Arizona state And
I don't I don't think it was college.

00:56:56.179 --> 00:57:01.816
I think Arizona State College College
Arizona state colleges. And what

00:57:01.849 --> 00:57:06.896
was, what was your degree? Mine? I was
in elementary

00:57:06.929 --> 00:57:12.227
but I never used it because I just
stayed here. Tell me how that happened.

00:57:12.260 --> 00:57:17.997
Well that's Mr Leveque and President
Gavin, you see, they were still here.

00:57:18.030 --> 00:57:26.030
So they helped to take me on. So I
never left here. So what was your

00:57:26.530 --> 00:57:32.697
first real job after you graduated?
Well, I helped with the freshman team

00:57:32.730 --> 00:57:37.197
and charge kind of charged with
equipment and just a little bit of

00:57:37.230 --> 00:57:40.497
everything.

00:57:40.530 --> 00:57:43.606
That's the way I got my start.

00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:46.617
Well why don't you kind of run me
through your career then? What? How did

00:57:46.650 --> 00:57:50.997
it, how did it progress?

00:57:51.030 --> 00:57:59.030
Well, let's see. in the meantime
around 43 I left for the server. She's

00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:04.756
we started a special unit that was
made up of all japanese americans and

00:58:04.789 --> 00:58:10.037
they were all volunteers. Before that
when the war broke out, shortly

00:58:10.070 --> 00:58:15.626
thereafter, they so called evacuation
took place. I don't know whether you

00:58:15.659 --> 00:58:22.586
heard about that or not. But they from
Canada all the way down to Arizona.

00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:27.276
They didn't have a separate distance.
But I always used about 200 miles

00:58:27.309 --> 00:58:31.787
or so inland. We all had to evacuate.

00:58:31.820 --> 00:58:35.956
And the line went through Tempi and
then through Mesa. So if you're on

00:58:35.989 --> 00:58:42.617
this side, you didn't have to go to
the camp unless you couldn't survive.

00:58:42.650 --> 00:58:49.387
He had no way to earn a living. Why
then you went to camp? So you could

00:58:49.420 --> 00:58:57.420
have a roof and some food. tell me
about the war years. What happened? I

00:58:57.429 --> 00:59:01.776
guess it would have been 1942. That
things really started to get a little

00:59:01.809 --> 00:59:03.887
tense.

00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:09.537
Well let's see it was around 42. I get
well 40. When did the bombings at

00:59:09.570 --> 00:59:12.606
41?

00:59:12.639 --> 00:59:19.396
41, 41. Yes But that was December
seven you see. So it goes up to 42. So

00:59:19.429 --> 00:59:24.787
it was 42 when the president made a
declaration that

00:59:24.820 --> 00:59:29.686
the coast all the japanese.

00:59:29.719 --> 00:59:34.537
When you say japanese american, why
then their citizens, when you say just

00:59:34.570 --> 00:59:41.967
japanese, why? It could be none? And
you may know this or may not. But

00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:47.986
like our parents, people say, why did
not, why didn't they become citizens

00:59:48.019 --> 00:59:52.057
like anybody else? Well, they had a
ruling the government ruling that they

00:59:52.090 --> 00:59:58.856
could not become citizens. They could
not own land in their name. There

00:59:58.889 --> 01:00:03.376
are many things they couldn't do now
if you're born here, you are a

01:00:03.409 --> 01:00:10.977
citizen like mexican people and
anybody else if they may be ah

01:00:11.010 --> 01:00:14.236
not citizens, you know when they come
here, but their Children

01:00:14.269 --> 01:00:20.977
automatically become So when they had
this evacuation, the president

01:00:21.010 --> 01:00:25.927
stated that everyone living on the
west coast

01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:30.307
and they drew a line and that may have
been a couple 100 miles or so

01:00:30.340 --> 01:00:35.497
inland I think primarily they were
concerned about these people that were

01:00:35.530 --> 01:00:43.530
in agriculture and fishing people and
they were doing quite well. Well, I

01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:48.977
think there were some people envy that
I think

01:00:49.010 --> 01:00:55.876
and they probably had a lot to do with
this rule coming in.

01:00:55.909 --> 01:01:00.436
And they were alerted by people on the
west coast probably, you know in

01:01:00.469 --> 01:01:04.017
contact with the senators and the
president and everybody to get him out

01:01:04.050 --> 01:01:09.086
of here and get them out of here. I
think, I don't know otherwise I don't

01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:14.586
think they would have done that. So it
was not just, it was anyone of

01:01:14.619 --> 01:01:19.497
japanese descent then not just
noncitizens. Right, right. You see that

01:01:19.530 --> 01:01:23.677
that's the fallacy of this, this
program.

01:01:23.710 --> 01:01:29.546
In other words if you you as a
citizen, if you live there, we can say that

01:01:29.579 --> 01:01:33.677
rule. You had to move out.

01:01:33.710 --> 01:01:37.066
Well how did that affect Arizona?
Because it's a lot further than 200

01:01:37.099 --> 01:01:41.787
miles from the coast. Well, I don't
know, I just use that as a number but

01:01:41.820 --> 01:01:45.436
they just came from Canada to see all
the way down and then came to

01:01:45.469 --> 01:01:47.477
Arizona

01:01:47.510 --> 01:01:51.736
on us. It was kind of the highway in a
way that they had everybody on the

01:01:51.769 --> 01:01:57.146
, on the south side. For instance for
example in Mesa there was a fellow

01:01:57.179 --> 01:02:01.626
that had a, I forget was a pool hall
or a grocery store or something like

01:02:01.659 --> 01:02:05.217
that. You see he had to move because
he was on the wrong side of the road

01:02:05.250 --> 01:02:11.486
so he could move to this side, bring
his business to this side. They have

01:02:11.519 --> 01:02:18.396
been all right. However, you had many
people that are all fired up. They

01:02:18.429 --> 01:02:22.086
probably didn't like the japanese
people. Why should they be there and so

01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:30.119
forth. Well when he went to like
Safeway they may not sold him food

01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:35.936
or went to a place to rent a house to
stay and maybe they didn't rent. You

01:02:35.969 --> 01:02:39.217
go and buy some gasoline and then
probably the service state. He said no

01:02:39.250 --> 01:02:44.347
we're not selling to you. Well what
are you going to do? Did those things

01:02:44.380 --> 01:02:50.566
ever happen to, you know, it didn't
happen to me or my wife.

01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:55.267
Where did you live at that time?

01:02:55.300 --> 01:03:01.677
I see how to describe it was kind of
above the above a garage. We had a

01:03:01.710 --> 01:03:09.267
little apartment and then we also had
a house that a regular house were

01:03:09.300 --> 01:03:14.907
where of course dixie how granted.
Then he joined the service, he

01:03:14.940 --> 01:03:19.727
volunteered for the service and then
we have to move in there. And that

01:03:19.760 --> 01:03:22.467
was on

01:03:22.500 --> 01:03:27.077
this site this mill. And then Apache
and that would be right about right

01:03:27.110 --> 01:03:34.256
here. So you weren't in the part that
the people that had to go to the if

01:03:34.289 --> 01:03:39.816
I were on this side then I would what
I would do then probably move over

01:03:39.849 --> 01:03:43.776
to this side. Where was the line
again? It came right through the main

01:03:43.809 --> 01:03:47.566
road.

01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:53.057
Oh well Apache. And then right through
the middle of the mesa. See Mesa

01:03:53.090 --> 01:03:57.577
wasn't developed that much. It was
mostly right downtown. It was right

01:03:57.610 --> 01:04:01.956
there by campus. Yes.

01:04:01.989 --> 01:04:09.989
So that was the rule for some of your
family and friends. Well my family

01:04:10.579 --> 01:04:17.517
they were on this side but Margaret's
family, they were in the heart of

01:04:17.550 --> 01:04:22.706
Los Angeles. They had cars and homes
and everything and they had to sell

01:04:22.739 --> 01:04:27.436
it and other people knew that they had
to sell it. So they would just give

01:04:27.469 --> 01:04:33.066
a minimum amount you see or had to
leave it. A lot of people left. All

01:04:33.099 --> 01:04:38.137
they can take with them is what they
can carry And it may be one or 2

01:04:38.170 --> 01:04:41.756
suitcases.

01:04:41.789 --> 01:04:47.606
Okay. They had to put him someplace
temporarily. So they took them to

01:04:47.639 --> 01:04:50.557
santa Anita racetrack

01:04:50.590 --> 01:04:56.137
and you know where the horses in the
stalls, they gave him a mattress

01:04:56.170 --> 01:05:00.247
covers and then you went in there and
got some straws and put in there and

01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:07.407
made mattresses And they stayed there
until they built some places. There

01:05:07.440 --> 01:05:13.137
were 10 relocation centers, they call
them

01:05:13.170 --> 01:05:20.247
and there were two in Arizona one over
there by casa grande. The indian,

01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:25.157
it was mostly indian because that has
something to do with the government

01:05:25.190 --> 01:05:31.276
and they hurriedly got some carpenters
with with a hammer and saw probably

01:05:31.309 --> 01:05:36.936
and just built those barracks you see
and they lived in barracks and had

01:05:36.969 --> 01:05:44.969
common eating places and bathrooms and
not much privacy and there were

01:05:45.750 --> 01:05:51.907
thousands of people And there were 10
of those scattered. There's some in

01:05:51.940 --> 01:05:57.057
California and Arizona Arkansas

01:05:57.090 --> 01:06:00.046
Utah I think

01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:06.236
Arkansas was the furthest probably
can't, but there were 10 of them. What

01:06:06.269 --> 01:06:11.316
what did you think about that when all
that was going on? Well it wasn't

01:06:11.349 --> 01:06:17.717
much of what we thought, but we didn't
think it was fair especially when

01:06:17.750 --> 01:06:20.747
citizens were taken.

01:06:20.780 --> 01:06:27.347
See we lost the citizenship for that
period.

01:06:27.380 --> 01:06:34.706
Okay, they were our boys drafted and
after this rule went into effect they

01:06:34.739 --> 01:06:40.227
took the guns away from them and then
ship them in the interior because

01:06:40.260 --> 01:06:43.347
they were too dangerous.

01:06:43.380 --> 01:06:48.927
So they were they were in like
Arkansas and texas. And instead of the

01:06:48.960 --> 01:06:56.046
combat teams combat preparation they
were assigned to like

01:06:56.079 --> 01:07:00.986
service companies where they serviced
like foods and things. You see there

01:07:01.019 --> 01:07:06.146
is no danger of them and

01:07:06.179 --> 01:07:12.916
well service take care of cars or
anything without guns. There were a lot

01:07:12.949 --> 01:07:18.710
of them like that because there were a
lot of japanese in the west coast.

01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:21.079
Now then there was a demand to organize this japanese unit and a lot of

01:07:24.440 --> 01:07:28.586
people were against it somewhere
forward and they kicked it around.

01:07:28.619 --> 01:07:33.327
Finally the president get okay. There
were some influential people thought

01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:38.747
they deserved to fight for their
country.

01:07:38.780 --> 01:07:46.780
So a regiment includes about 4000
troops or soldiers. About 4000. Now it's

01:07:47.829 --> 01:07:55.829
made up of infantry, artillery and a
company of engineers and that's what

01:07:56.010 --> 01:08:02.997
what is known as regimental combat
team. That division has three of those

01:08:03.030 --> 01:08:08.606
that makes a division. And when we're
overseas then we're the fourth one.

01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:13.287
If we were attached to 36 division
then there's four of them. Usually the

01:08:13.320 --> 01:08:18.807
combat theory is you have to fighting
and one in reserve but if they

01:08:18.840 --> 01:08:22.366
attach us over here they'll probably
drop another 12 of those are

01:08:22.399 --> 01:08:27.277
arresting and then our unit and their
unit would be fighting unless

01:08:27.310 --> 01:08:31.536
there's an emergency you need more men
than you call up this other gang

01:08:31.569 --> 01:08:37.527
and bring them up. Tell me about how
your unit formed and how you came to

01:08:37.560 --> 01:08:43.477
join. Okay then then the president
said, okay, we're gonna start all

01:08:43.510 --> 01:08:51.510
japanese american unit. It was called
4 42nd Regimental Combat Team.

01:08:52.670 --> 01:08:59.036
Okay then they asked for volunteers.
We had a little difficulty,

01:08:59.069 --> 01:09:04.996
especially with the boys that are in
these camps. A lot of them reneged

01:09:05.029 --> 01:09:09.217
and they said no, they've taken their
citizenship away. They will not

01:09:09.250 --> 01:09:14.536
serve the country and you can't blame
them.

01:09:14.569 --> 01:09:19.477
So they gave them a quarter and they
gave hawaii a quarter because there

01:09:19.510 --> 01:09:25.137
are a lot of Japanese americans there.
Okay, so they couldn't fulfill this

01:09:25.170 --> 01:09:32.206
quarter and they asked Hawaii for
volunteers and there were about 15,000

01:09:32.239 --> 01:09:34.737
or so volunteered.

01:09:34.770 --> 01:09:38.967
See they were ready to go because they
did not, you know, take them away

01:09:39.000 --> 01:09:44.767
from home and they didn't know what it
was like for their brethren's over

01:09:44.800 --> 01:09:47.336
here.

01:09:47.369 --> 01:09:51.357
So then they reversed it. They gave
them a larger quota, say a couple of

01:09:51.390 --> 01:09:57.616
1000 maybe 1000 for the mainland. It's
called, you see, so that's how they

01:09:57.649 --> 01:10:03.897
form. Now these fellows that were
drafted and taken into the interior.

01:10:03.930 --> 01:10:09.046
Then they didn't have to join that
group. They volunteered again To join

01:10:09.079 --> 01:10:12.727
this for 40 seconds.

01:10:12.760 --> 01:10:17.336
Now these fellows had military
training and these other fellows, they're

01:10:17.369 --> 01:10:22.456
calling up even from Hawaii that
volunteered, they didn't have it. So

01:10:22.489 --> 01:10:27.286
these fellows that were already in the
service. they got The good good

01:10:27.319 --> 01:10:32.857
spots. There were four sergeants
that's the top set and all that. So that

01:10:32.890 --> 01:10:37.927
created a little problem that they
didn't have a chance. And the other

01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:42.427
fellows that volunteered from the
camps didn't have a chance to get some.

01:10:42.460 --> 01:10:48.456
They could all be, you know, on top
but they had they like to have a fair

01:10:48.489 --> 01:10:53.586
chance at it. Tell me about how you
came to get involved. Well then I

01:10:53.619 --> 01:10:58.196
volunteered quite early but I asked if
I could stay until school was out.

01:10:58.229 --> 01:11:04.406
That's in june see by then they've
been Training for about three months

01:11:04.439 --> 01:11:08.626
or so and everything is pretty well
set.

01:11:08.659 --> 01:11:13.666
So the boys from Hawaii came over and
the inland people were giving them

01:11:13.699 --> 01:11:19.036
orders and all. They didn't quite like
that. The only time that they felt

01:11:19.069 --> 01:11:22.847
better was when they had a leave and
some of these boys from Hawaii and

01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:27.467
other places especially Hawaii went to
visit some of these camps and found

01:11:27.500 --> 01:11:31.227
these fellows were there and they were
citizens and they were taken out

01:11:31.260 --> 01:11:36.397
and then sent to camp and they could
understand why they were bitter. Some

01:11:36.430 --> 01:11:41.756
of them, although some of them did
volunteer from the camps, not all of

01:11:41.789 --> 01:11:46.836
them stayed away but some did and you
can't blame them. So then they were

01:11:46.869 --> 01:11:53.006
brought over here and they we had our
camp at camp Shelby Mississippi. I

01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:56.017
don't know whether you know where that
is or not. And you know where

01:11:56.050 --> 01:12:04.050
Mississippi is, that's almost the end
of the world, almost, you know, when

01:12:04.340 --> 01:12:10.927
we first went there, they still had
these restrooms, black and white, you

01:12:10.960 --> 01:12:15.916
know that that's still modern times,
but it was still that way on the

01:12:15.949 --> 01:12:19.817
busses where they went in the back.

01:12:19.850 --> 01:12:24.916
So a lot of our boys say, where do we
belong to go to this black or white

01:12:24.949 --> 01:12:29.807
or you know, back of the bus. And then
another situation I heard and I

01:12:29.840 --> 01:12:33.637
will tell that little story is,

01:12:33.670 --> 01:12:37.107
and then the bus came along and some
of the, some of the japanese

01:12:37.140 --> 01:12:43.416
americans, they sat in front I guess.
And then

01:12:43.449 --> 01:12:48.517
some of the blacks want to get on the
bus and I said no, there's no room.

01:12:48.550 --> 01:12:53.996
And so they discriminated. So our boys
then got the driver and threw them

01:12:54.029 --> 01:12:59.717
out of the bus, I just threw him off.

01:12:59.750 --> 01:13:05.546
So that's, that's kind of an incident
and that Children, 43, that's modern

01:13:05.579 --> 01:13:12.206
times. And the south was still, shall
we say that way. So tell me about

01:13:12.239 --> 01:13:16.487
your own experience. Um, you
volunteered and after school was out then,

01:13:16.520 --> 01:13:20.616
where did you go to Mississippi? Well,
first of all, I was inducted in

01:13:20.649 --> 01:13:25.786
Fort Douglas, Salt Lake and there was
a bus load that went from some of

01:13:25.819 --> 01:13:30.916
these camps over here that they
volunteered and I went with them and we

01:13:30.949 --> 01:13:35.126
stopped at Flagstaff, had a little
lunch and then went on to Salt Lake and

01:13:35.159 --> 01:13:39.897
I was inducted there and they gave us
about a week after induction to go

01:13:39.930 --> 01:13:44.897
visit parents or anybody you see. Then
we all assembled and they were

01:13:44.930 --> 01:13:48.416
already training then.

01:13:48.449 --> 01:13:52.937
So we just, they put us wherever they
needed someone that we didn't have

01:13:52.970 --> 01:13:58.217
much choice. So then we trained,

01:13:58.250 --> 01:14:02.607
I gotta back backtrack a little bit.
There's another battalion that was in

01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:08.406
Hawaii that were in the service
already and they had a little training.

01:14:08.439 --> 01:14:14.906
They were shipped over to the mainland
1st to camp McCoy Wisconsin.

01:14:14.939 --> 01:14:19.086
And then from there they were sent to
Camp Shelby where the rest of us

01:14:19.119 --> 01:14:24.527
were. But because they had previous
training after they completed their

01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:29.347
training, they were sent before us
before the four 42nd went, the 100th

01:14:29.380 --> 01:14:34.166
infantry battalion became very famous.
They went to Africa And they were

01:14:34.199 --> 01:14:39.006
attached to the 34th Division and then
they started the lower part of

01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:43.656
Italy and went through like Anzio. I
don't know you you heard about that

01:14:43.689 --> 01:14:49.706
was a bloody battle of Anzio and all
that. And then the other one was that

01:14:49.739 --> 01:14:51.897
church,

01:14:51.930 --> 01:14:55.817
it was on a hill like this with the
river coming by like this and the

01:14:55.850 --> 01:15:00.137
Germans were there all embedded and
and they cut all the trees down, they

01:15:00.170 --> 01:15:05.357
flooded that area with the water. So
when our troops came in there in mud

01:15:05.390 --> 01:15:11.217
and they couldn't bring in artillery
is Law mud and they would fire and

01:15:11.250 --> 01:15:15.336
they're up on top firing down like
this we brown the planes and we

01:15:15.369 --> 01:15:19.446
couldn't touch it because all the
rocks that they build at casinos and

01:15:19.479 --> 01:15:22.217
mount casino

01:15:22.250 --> 01:15:27.946
and our are not the four 42nd but the
100th one in there. And they

01:15:27.979 --> 01:15:32.006
received citation

01:15:32.039 --> 01:15:37.756
battle citation for that because they
lost lots of lots of people. And

01:15:37.789 --> 01:15:41.817
they said this river is kind of
exaggeration but they said it it was like

01:15:41.850 --> 01:15:45.706
blood flowing down. There's so many
casualties.

01:15:45.739 --> 01:15:51.237
Finally they broke out of there and
then it went towards room and our

01:15:51.270 --> 01:15:56.027
100th was leading the pack and they
stopped them and they left the tanks

01:15:56.060 --> 01:16:02.296
go ahead of them. So they could say
that they took room

01:16:02.329 --> 01:16:08.597
outside a room in a place called
Cvitanovic about 30 miles north. They

01:16:08.630 --> 01:16:15.496
were resting there. In the meantime
our group is coming overseas.

01:16:15.529 --> 01:16:19.496
It took us

01:16:19.529 --> 01:16:27.097
26 state almost a month to cross from
Virginia

01:16:27.130 --> 01:16:32.906
to our destination. Although as we
approach quietly the ships start to

01:16:32.939 --> 01:16:40.156
peel off, you see and fortunately I
have to be on the last ship and I was

01:16:40.189 --> 01:16:45.637
there for the full count of days and
naturally when their enemy subs

01:16:45.670 --> 01:16:48.296
floating around

01:16:48.329 --> 01:16:55.387
our ship would go, the convoy will go
as fast as a slower ship. So they

01:16:55.420 --> 01:17:00.057
had to zig zag a lot like this, you
see. So they won't be bombed. That's

01:17:00.090 --> 01:17:04.796
why it took some 26 days or so.

01:17:04.829 --> 01:17:12.576
So the first day we sail, I was okay
and then I was sick seasick almost

01:17:12.609 --> 01:17:18.097
all the way until someone sighted
land. And I got well right away. And

01:17:18.130 --> 01:17:22.817
then when we came off the ship Short
distance there was some boxcars. They

01:17:22.850 --> 01:17:28.357
called him 40 and eight. You put 40
men or eight horses, they call them 40

01:17:28.390 --> 01:17:33.557
and eight. So the sides were open and
there was a stack of c rations. I

01:17:33.590 --> 01:17:38.307
don't know whether you've ever eaten c
rations in cans with cold cold food

01:17:38.340 --> 01:17:43.267
inside. So we hiked and got on there
and that's how we went all the way to

01:17:43.300 --> 01:17:45.696
Rome.

01:17:45.729 --> 01:17:49.786
And we will go through tunnels and
then the Black Smoke and your your face

01:17:49.819 --> 01:17:53.397
would be black when you came out of
the tunnel.

01:17:53.430 --> 01:17:59.227
So what was your role? What did you
do? Well, I was fortunately I was

01:17:59.260 --> 01:18:05.317
attached to the division that's a
higher echelon and I could contact with

01:18:05.350 --> 01:18:09.156
the field battle maps and all kinds of
things that I would bring it down

01:18:09.189 --> 01:18:15.076
to the er our unit. The artillery. See
I was with the artillery

01:18:15.109 --> 01:18:20.097
In the artillery. You had 12 pieces.
They caught it. But their guns And

01:18:20.130 --> 01:18:27.786
they're they're about 5" shells I
think. And therefore there are 12 pieces

01:18:27.819 --> 01:18:30.987
or guns in the battalion.

01:18:31.020 --> 01:18:34.576
And you have five batteries. There are
batteries. They're about 100 or so

01:18:34.609 --> 01:18:40.036
men and they manned the guns and then
they have a survey gang and they

01:18:40.069 --> 01:18:43.187
have a line and they'll tell you
exactly where it is and you figure out

01:18:43.220 --> 01:18:48.017
and they'll the orders will be to
shoot one round or two rounds or

01:18:48.050 --> 01:18:54.307
whatever it is at this target, you
see. And they were right behind the

01:18:54.340 --> 01:19:01.036
infantry when the infantry is pressed.
It needs some fire. Then we have

01:19:01.069 --> 01:19:06.256
what they call a forward observer.
He's in between our guns and the infant

01:19:06.289 --> 01:19:11.427
infantry and then he'll give number
this number that you see then they'll

01:19:11.460 --> 01:19:13.687
shoot.

01:19:13.720 --> 01:19:18.647
But we were very fortunate and they
had some pretty good pretty good

01:19:18.680 --> 01:19:24.027
people up there figuring this out. And
we became known in the battles over

01:19:24.060 --> 01:19:30.717
there as it's kind of automatic
artillery. We were pretty accurate. Get

01:19:30.750 --> 01:19:37.467
sick. So we got some commendation for
that. But all in all the infantry is

01:19:37.500 --> 01:19:41.717
the one that took the meeting because
they're right up there and they

01:19:41.750 --> 01:19:46.517
fixed Bennett's every now and then.
And they did that mount casino. When

01:19:46.550 --> 01:19:50.866
you hear a fixed bayonet, that means
you're going to close with the enemy.

01:19:50.899 --> 01:19:56.487
You put the bayonets on there and you
go right after him

01:19:56.520 --> 01:20:03.397
and our gang did that a lot. Not all
the time. But you know, the commander

01:20:03.430 --> 01:20:07.437
or whoever's in charge for two
leaders. They fixed bayonets while you knew

01:20:07.470 --> 01:20:12.116
that was it. You fix them and go after
them. So you weren't actually with

01:20:12.149 --> 01:20:19.137
the infantry. No, I was artillery was
very fortunate. Well some not that

01:20:19.170 --> 01:20:23.727
close. We were close enough where you
can hear the small arms fire, It's

01:20:23.760 --> 01:20:27.576
called those are the rifle one.

01:20:27.609 --> 01:20:31.866
So you want wounded or anything. No, I
wasn't. But then we had a lot of

01:20:31.899 --> 01:20:35.576
casualties, lots of wounded.

01:20:35.609 --> 01:20:42.576
Another thing I might tell you this is
that we only had one medal of honor

01:20:42.609 --> 01:20:46.677
And we had 52 I think

01:20:46.710 --> 01:20:53.546
The next next one. Forget it was next
medal next to the Medal of Honor.

01:20:53.579 --> 01:20:59.487
And Recently about 50 years later that
was just maybe a year or two ago

01:20:59.520 --> 01:21:06.307
someone was interested in in the
military and they requested to reevaluate

01:21:06.340 --> 01:21:12.177
this. There were 55 I think had the
next highest

01:21:12.210 --> 01:21:17.097
and when they have citations says that
long, all the things they did and

01:21:17.130 --> 01:21:20.637
had to have some kind of witness
whenever they can that they did this

01:21:20.670 --> 01:21:23.477
person did that

01:21:23.510 --> 01:21:28.177
they can't add or detract. In other
words, they can't keep adding that

01:21:28.210 --> 01:21:34.296
During the 50 years or take away. It's
always gonna be there. So they

01:21:34.329 --> 01:21:41.576
evaluated and out of 52 I think 20 to
qualify for a medal of honor. You

01:21:41.609 --> 01:21:44.277
know, there's something

01:21:44.310 --> 01:21:48.786
wrong about that. They could have
received it when they were they received

01:21:48.819 --> 01:21:55.576
, you see, so then they had a Big
Party, shall we call a party in Los

01:21:55.609 --> 01:21:59.567
Angeles one in Hawaii

01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:04.706
and of course most of them are gone.
So the next of kin or brother parents

01:22:04.739 --> 01:22:12.739
or somebody in Hawaii they had, Well
22 I guess 20 to receive their medal

01:22:12.859 --> 01:22:17.967
of honor. This will never happen
again. That's what my friend wrote said

01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:24.107
that they had generals escorting these
recipients up there and they don't

01:22:24.140 --> 01:22:28.097
do that very often. And this friend of
mine said, you'll never see that

01:22:28.130 --> 01:22:33.666
again because they won't have that
unit.

01:22:33.699 --> 01:22:38.227
That was a pretty exciting time in
your life I imagine. Well we were

01:22:38.260 --> 01:22:40.866
waiting to come home

01:22:40.899 --> 01:22:44.946
but we were there for occupation for a
little while

01:22:44.979 --> 01:22:51.017
and to come back. He had uh points. If
you're married, you get so many

01:22:51.050 --> 01:22:53.927
points, you have Children, you have so
many points. You have more than one

01:22:53.960 --> 01:22:57.446
years and so forth so on. And the
fellows that went and were in the

01:22:57.479 --> 01:23:01.536
service a long time, they got to go
home. But I have to be on the second I

01:23:01.569 --> 01:23:08.057
think. And I think it didn't take 26
days for that ship to come home this

01:23:08.090 --> 01:23:14.227
time. So we came back to new york and
then in a few days as soon as we

01:23:14.260 --> 01:23:19.147
landed they gave us steaks and then
then we will shift back wherever you

01:23:19.180 --> 01:23:25.107
want to go back. So I asked to go to
Salt Lake and be discharged from Fort

01:23:25.140 --> 01:23:31.630
Douglas because the wife and family
were there and then chrissy was there.

01:23:32.090 --> 01:23:34.090
That was very noisy. Suddenly there. That's something you haven't told me

01:23:37.109 --> 01:23:41.767
anything about. Tell me about how you
met your wife.

01:23:41.800 --> 01:23:46.267
Well I gotta get down to business now.

01:23:46.300 --> 01:23:49.857
But that that wasn't part of the war

01:23:49.890 --> 01:23:52.137
in it.

01:23:52.170 --> 01:23:54.406
Why don't you just tell me about your
wife and then we'll get you back to

01:23:54.439 --> 01:24:01.456
the issue. But incidentally, I gave
some of that story to the ROTC

01:24:01.489 --> 01:24:05.946
see once a year in the spring I think
they call dying out, they take them

01:24:05.979 --> 01:24:13.086
all out to someplace and have dinner
and have everyone

01:24:13.119 --> 01:24:18.317
that in the unit ROTC and some of the
some of the higher ups will come and

01:24:18.350 --> 01:24:23.406
go forth. And I gave the story about
from the beginning some of it I gave

01:24:23.439 --> 01:24:27.496
you just a little while ago, all the
way to the end and some of the

01:24:27.529 --> 01:24:32.467
battles and one of the rescue, the
lost battalion that became quite famous

01:24:32.500 --> 01:24:39.067
and we lost a lot of men to rescue
when the division they have those three

01:24:39.100 --> 01:24:43.057
regiments you see, and they didn't use
their own men and they use ours.

01:24:43.090 --> 01:24:47.336
And this was a new general that came
north of Italy. Then we went over

01:24:47.369 --> 01:24:52.607
with France and went to this forest
where they were captivated, you see.

01:24:52.640 --> 01:24:56.467
And the Germans were all the way
around it. And that's supposed to be one

01:24:56.500 --> 01:25:01.906
of the, one of the famous battles
during World War Two at the rescue, the

01:25:01.939 --> 01:25:06.956
lost battalion. I thought I would just
bring that up. But I

01:25:06.989 --> 01:25:10.366
well we were just outside because they
couldn't use the artillery because

01:25:10.399 --> 01:25:14.397
of the forest was so thick when the
artillery hit the shelves. The shelves

01:25:14.430 --> 01:25:18.956
will break the branches and they'll
come right down in the foxhole.

01:25:18.989 --> 01:25:22.796
We did shoot some pamphlets, you know,
surrender and all that. But they

01:25:22.829 --> 01:25:27.656
didn't do that. And the Germans had
their prime soldiers. They're the real

01:25:27.689 --> 01:25:32.057
top one that surrounded this.

01:25:32.090 --> 01:25:38.317
So we had a sometime after war then
they governor I think the one that

01:25:38.350 --> 01:25:43.557
made everyone in that unit honorary
Texans.

01:25:43.590 --> 01:25:50.536
So I gave all that and I'm not
boasting but ROTC gave me a standing and

01:25:50.569 --> 01:25:57.696
also the the commanding officer had a
big frame about that side with all

01:25:57.729 --> 01:26:04.177
the names of the people in the
artillery. The five different groups you've

01:26:04.210 --> 01:26:07.336
seen like that.

01:26:07.369 --> 01:26:11.246
Then they invited me to come to the

01:26:11.279 --> 01:26:17.737
what they call it now when there not
pin but what they call that no one

01:26:17.770 --> 01:26:23.347
there when they made the second
lieutenants in ROTC. The graduation

01:26:23.380 --> 01:26:27.366
invited me to that and Christy and I
went to that that's quite a thing

01:26:27.399 --> 01:26:32.277
because they have the band and play
the band music. Okay now let's go back

01:26:32.310 --> 01:26:38.717
, let's go back and tell me how you
met your wife. Oh okay. Well 1st of

01:26:38.750 --> 01:26:44.067
all there weren't very many young
ladies you know over here. Yeah it was

01:26:44.100 --> 01:26:48.946
sort of not really old but I think I
was older than most of these

01:26:48.979 --> 01:26:56.097
youngsters over here and I used to go
to Los Angeles For the summer just

01:26:56.130 --> 01:27:02.956
you know off and on in a week or two.
Then I met a relative of hers and

01:27:02.989 --> 01:27:06.607
she and they want me to meet her and
she was working in an insurance

01:27:06.640 --> 01:27:14.640
company, a pretty prosperous and it
was, it was run by the top person was

01:27:14.979 --> 01:27:20.467
Margaret's brother now and it was and
she of course he was married to

01:27:20.500 --> 01:27:23.746
Margaret's older sister.

01:27:23.779 --> 01:27:28.647
So that went along somewhere and then
I met her and then I saw a few times

01:27:28.680 --> 01:27:30.946
and supposedly

01:27:30.979 --> 01:27:38.597
she had another friend and all but I
guess I came in pretty well so in

01:27:38.630 --> 01:27:42.826
about a year's time we were married
and and then that's the first time she

01:27:42.859 --> 01:27:50.246
left home and we came to Arizona and
has 41

01:27:50.279 --> 01:27:56.727
You see that was June June 15, 41 and
it was december when the war broke

01:27:56.760 --> 01:28:04.227
out only about a half a year. And then
I left in 43 and I was gone. Uh

01:28:04.260 --> 01:28:09.607
what about, Let's see, 43,

01:28:09.640 --> 01:28:15.446
about 46 years. The war was over 45
June I think. And then it took a

01:28:15.479 --> 01:28:22.437
little time and we're occupation in
Germany and then came back and then

01:28:22.470 --> 01:28:27.406
she was there. So I was discharged in
fort Douglas Utah And then we came

01:28:27.439 --> 01:28:32.536
down then I started again in the
second semester. So did you ever have any

01:28:32.569 --> 01:28:36.036
questions that you were going to come
back to Arizona and to the

01:28:36.069 --> 01:28:41.217
university? You never thought about
doing something else? No. Well see

01:28:41.250 --> 01:28:46.336
there was a promise from almost any
place where the soldiers that left

01:28:46.369 --> 01:28:49.416
that they would be promised their job
when they came back. Remember? I

01:28:49.449 --> 01:28:53.637
don't know whether everyone kept it,
but I think most of them had them

01:28:53.670 --> 01:28:58.517
come back. So I just came back. And
what was the school like when you came

01:28:58.550 --> 01:29:03.217
back here? Well, I think shortly after
it started to grow because the men

01:29:03.250 --> 01:29:09.546
started coming back, you know, for a
while the men were all leaving and it

01:29:09.579 --> 01:29:15.906
was a lady school. Not only that, but
and I think I have there someplace

01:29:15.939 --> 01:29:22.196
where this was kind of a training
center for the Air Force and all the the

01:29:22.229 --> 01:29:26.987
cadets, I guess they're basic. They
came here and took lessons and some of

01:29:27.020 --> 01:29:32.717
them learned how to fly a little bit
before they went into combat I guess

01:29:32.750 --> 01:29:39.607
or really received the bars for
flight, but they were in the dormitories

01:29:39.640 --> 01:29:44.286
and they would march up and down. And
some of our instructors gave them

01:29:44.319 --> 01:29:48.836
the pt the physical training

01:29:48.869 --> 01:29:56.869
in the meantime. Why I kind of left
43. Remember?

01:29:57.869 --> 01:30:02.767
Well, yeah. So growing a lot then
when, well when I came back and started

01:30:02.800 --> 01:30:08.666
to grow, started to grow. Yes. And
sports resume. I see we had one year, I

01:30:08.699 --> 01:30:12.036
had to have it down there by coach
coach. He was a very outstanding high

01:30:12.069 --> 01:30:15.696
school coach. When he came here. You
can't blame because most of the boys

01:30:15.729 --> 01:30:19.177
that came back from the service, they
weren't in condition. You know, they

01:30:19.210 --> 01:30:24.067
were real heavy and they had other
kinds of habits probably and they

01:30:24.100 --> 01:30:29.977
weren't, you know, ready for
discipline. That's when Arizona beat us 67 to

01:30:30.010 --> 01:30:37.126
nothing. And then we changed coaches
right after that.

01:30:37.159 --> 01:30:39.906
You mentioned something in here about
the Victory Village. You want to

01:30:39.939 --> 01:30:44.397
tell me a little about that? Well, I
can tell you about that. Did you live

01:30:44.430 --> 01:30:50.677
there? I did. Well after the war it
was very difficult to buy or build a

01:30:50.710 --> 01:30:58.710
house because most of the industries
were geared to the service.

01:30:59.460 --> 01:31:03.956
Okay. You want to buy wood? It's hard
to buy wood and they were green

01:31:03.989 --> 01:31:08.427
because they're trying to sell it. So
they cut it and then, okay, what

01:31:08.460 --> 01:31:12.847
what greenwood would do? You build a
house and then we had evaporative

01:31:12.880 --> 01:31:17.746
coolers and all that moisture coming
in. Your door door might fit just

01:31:17.779 --> 01:31:23.427
right. And next day it may warp. You
see then you have big openings,

01:31:23.460 --> 01:31:30.326
things like that and you might wait
oh, several months or longer for

01:31:30.359 --> 01:31:36.826
bathroom fixture because they were
building something else, tanks probably.

01:31:36.859 --> 01:31:39.227
 And

01:31:39.260 --> 01:31:46.286
well one Luck. I had a, I had a friend
I think was, I was at the bank here

01:31:46.319 --> 01:31:51.086
and, but he had a friend in Washington
someplace for the loan and usually

01:31:51.119 --> 01:31:56.836
you asked for a loan. It may take you
months to get it back. This one just

01:31:56.869 --> 01:32:02.916
came almost overnight. You see that's
what you have a buddy for. Then the

01:32:02.949 --> 01:32:07.567
builder, he liked to go fishing. So
okay, he's ready to go and figure

01:32:07.600 --> 01:32:11.807
there will be several weeks or months
before I get that clear. So he's

01:32:11.840 --> 01:32:16.987
gonna go fishing then all of a sudden
comes in and we're ready to go. And

01:32:17.020 --> 01:32:22.307
so he couldn't go fishing. So that's
kind of a funny thing. That's not so

01:32:22.340 --> 01:32:28.387
funny as my one wall was almost all
windows and the wind blew one night.

01:32:28.420 --> 01:32:34.717
And then next day I went by the look
and that wall was down,

01:32:34.750 --> 01:32:39.387
where was this house that you were
having built? Right over here on on

01:32:39.420 --> 01:32:44.116
this side of broadway, right off of
college.

01:32:44.149 --> 01:32:49.517
Is that where you still live today? I
still live there for 52 years.

01:32:49.550 --> 01:32:56.017
Well, tell me about living in the
Victory Village Village. You were

01:32:56.050 --> 01:32:59.616
Gammage Auditorium. Is

01:32:59.649 --> 01:33:06.317
this side right next to the uh college
avenue.

01:33:06.350 --> 01:33:11.166
It was a big house and the foreman of
that. It was called a college farm

01:33:11.199 --> 01:33:16.897
then. And he had horses and cows and
and grew some feed there and so forth.

01:33:16.930 --> 01:33:22.876
Well it was pretty well cleaned up.
And then and then a very little

01:33:22.909 --> 01:33:27.217
housing for students or faculty and no
one you see, we couldn't hardly

01:33:27.250 --> 01:33:30.116
rent a place.

01:33:30.149 --> 01:33:35.166
So then they started bringing in
military barracks and then cut it in a

01:33:35.199 --> 01:33:42.737
three or four, you see. And then the
faculty got prime. Now students, if

01:33:42.770 --> 01:33:47.357
they're married, they got some housing
and there were these trailers, they

01:33:47.390 --> 01:33:52.307
would put it on these horses and
things, Things prop them up and they

01:33:52.340 --> 01:33:56.616
lived the student marriage. Students
lived in, the faculty lived in the,

01:33:56.649 --> 01:34:01.506
so we call that victory Village

01:34:01.539 --> 01:34:06.277
and then I got some sour orange seeds
and then I made a plot about four by

01:34:06.310 --> 01:34:11.927
six or so and then start planning,
start growing a little sour orange

01:34:11.960 --> 01:34:17.807
hedge and then it was about the size
of a pencil when we built our house

01:34:17.840 --> 01:34:23.107
in our heads That goes all the way
back. 100 about 40 or some odd feet in

01:34:23.140 --> 01:34:29.477
the back is still there. And I started
in the size of a pencil.

01:34:29.510 --> 01:34:35.027
Must be a good farmer. I don't know.
But some of us, uh, some of the

01:34:35.060 --> 01:34:40.347
coaches like Quinn and honored frio,
we're still together. We all lived

01:34:40.380 --> 01:34:47.177
there and some James Chrisman lived
there and a few of the faculty members

01:34:47.210 --> 01:34:55.210
like english protests and so forth.
And that was very exclusive area. It's

01:34:55.229 --> 01:34:59.477
called victor village.

01:34:59.510 --> 01:35:02.286
Don't tell me about when you came back
from the war. What was your job at

01:35:02.319 --> 01:35:10.206
the university then? Well, about the
same, I started where I left off and

01:35:10.239 --> 01:35:17.786
I took over the freshman freshman
football and I don't know whether I had

01:35:17.819 --> 01:35:23.376
basketball, but I had freshman
basketball and, and then, uh, they need a

01:35:23.409 --> 01:35:28.626
baseball coach. So I was a baseball
coach for a while. And, and then I

01:35:28.659 --> 01:35:34.496
gave it up and, but at the same time I
had classes plus those coaching.

01:35:34.529 --> 01:35:39.546
See today they don't do that if you
coach football, that's all you do. So

01:35:39.579 --> 01:35:41.967
I had classes.

01:35:42.000 --> 01:35:47.506
What sort of classes I teach? I
thought some it's a required car of course

01:35:47.539 --> 01:35:50.906
called school.

01:35:50.939 --> 01:35:57.597
Um There was a health class that
every, the students had to have in order

01:35:57.630 --> 01:35:59.906
to

01:35:59.939 --> 01:36:02.996
receive a teaching certificate.

01:36:03.029 --> 01:36:06.597
And there was another one where there
was an element elementary school

01:36:06.630 --> 01:36:12.656
physical education. That's that's
these games that they play and uh rainy

01:36:12.689 --> 01:36:16.696
day games and things like that.

01:36:16.729 --> 01:36:21.836
Then we had what you call it. Came in,
what's that group that went

01:36:21.869 --> 01:36:25.496
overseas or in the country.

01:36:25.529 --> 01:36:27.897
Mhm.

01:36:27.930 --> 01:36:32.696
Kind of saving people or teaching them
to farm peace corps. See they had a

01:36:32.729 --> 01:36:36.357
unit over here when the students came
and we caught some physical

01:36:36.390 --> 01:36:41.546
education and other things. And I
helped him that Tell me a little bit

01:36:41.579 --> 01:36:46.517
about how the sports programs were
changing and after those years, how the

01:36:46.550 --> 01:36:52.067
school was growing from the after the
war years and into the 50s. Well I

01:36:52.100 --> 01:36:57.166
think the sports, it started to grow
and you have boosters and all that

01:36:57.199 --> 01:37:00.796
helps help

01:37:00.829 --> 01:37:05.597
getting supplies and getting players

01:37:05.630 --> 01:37:10.756
and little added money. And now I
think all these money must be funneled

01:37:10.789 --> 01:37:17.427
in certain places. So you can take
advantage. And now now we have a limit

01:37:17.460 --> 01:37:21.946
of players that we can have on
scholarship which And some of the wealthy

01:37:21.979 --> 01:37:29.979
schools instead of 100 that will have
150 or so. Then Tell me about that

01:37:30.539 --> 01:37:35.227
game in 1946 against Tucson. Were you
there for that game? What was that

01:37:35.260 --> 01:37:43.260
like disasters For? Uh, 60? was there
67 to nothing?

01:37:43.930 --> 01:37:50.027
Well, the coach was only, they're only
with us one year Coochie don't have

01:37:50.060 --> 01:37:54.796
that. He was a very successful high
school coach in Mesa.

01:37:54.829 --> 01:38:02.487
But you couldn't blame him. His
manpower was very LTD.

01:38:02.520 --> 01:38:07.887
Then we brought 47. And then what did
we bring?

01:38:07.920 --> 01:38:15.286
No, not Dixie Hall, Is that dirty? And
they already came in 47.

01:38:15.319 --> 01:38:19.286
I think it was Dixie home.

01:38:19.319 --> 01:38:24.987
Nixon was a very famous player at
Alabama.

01:38:25.020 --> 01:38:31.156
And then in 30 30,

01:38:31.189 --> 01:38:38.956
38, 39, 40 we went to the Sun Bowl two
years with Dixie Hall. Then he went

01:38:38.989 --> 01:38:41.477
to the service.

01:38:41.510 --> 01:38:46.647
No, there were only four bulls in the
country. Then Today there must be 20

01:38:46.680 --> 01:38:53.916
or more and we went two years in a row
and we've, we've had some reunions.

01:38:53.949 --> 01:38:58.506
That was before the war though. 39.
Yes. Just before because he went to

01:38:58.539 --> 01:39:06.539
the service after the war. Um, After
that defeat in 1946, you were telling

01:39:06.670 --> 01:39:09.906
us about, why don't you tell us again
about how they changed the mascot?

01:39:09.939 --> 01:39:12.807
Oh yes.

01:39:12.840 --> 01:39:18.626
Well there was a drive two later on a
few years later to try to get the

01:39:18.659 --> 01:39:23.626
university title and you know, they
wouldn't give us give it to us

01:39:23.659 --> 01:39:29.786
legislatures and Arizona was the key
to fight us

01:39:29.819 --> 01:39:35.277
and they put it up for a vote. Then we
got it. That was 150 something when

01:39:35.310 --> 01:39:37.487
58.

01:39:37.520 --> 01:39:41.076
But you changed the 47,

01:39:41.109 --> 01:39:48.086
And how did you do that? The idea?
Well, I see. We've got, we've got the

01:39:48.119 --> 01:39:54.237
sun angels going, you see, and then we
got this sun devil about the same

01:39:54.270 --> 01:39:58.326
time, you see. So they thought that if
we're going to have boosters and

01:39:58.359 --> 01:40:02.347
all, they're going to change the, the
face on everything. So they thought

01:40:02.380 --> 01:40:06.876
that we should have a different
mascot. And then the students voted and I

01:40:06.909 --> 01:40:11.116
think the students finally voted. I
didn't vote, but of course I wouldn't

01:40:11.149 --> 01:40:15.166
want to change. No one's been here a
long time want to change no matter

01:40:15.199 --> 01:40:21.456
what it was, rattlesnakes or whatever.
So I think the students voted for

01:40:21.489 --> 01:40:25.696
it and that's how it became. And then
they got the fellow in Hollywood,

01:40:25.729 --> 01:40:30.487
what's his name? I think one of those
cartoonists, Disney, I think they

01:40:30.520 --> 01:40:36.567
drew that for us. I think that was it.
So the students, they put it up to

01:40:36.600 --> 01:40:41.477
the students. You see that,

01:40:41.510 --> 01:40:44.246
Tell me about some of the traditions,
You've got some notes in here about

01:40:44.279 --> 01:40:47.256
some of the traditions of things that
you used to do before the games.

01:40:47.289 --> 01:40:50.826
Like tell me about how they got the af
on the butte. When did that happen

01:40:50.859 --> 01:40:53.677
?

01:40:53.710 --> 01:40:59.376
Gosh, I have the date, I think down
there 38

01:40:59.409 --> 01:41:03.977
for first, there was

01:41:04.010 --> 01:41:11.317
what, what was it in normal school I
think it was and first and then and

01:41:11.350 --> 01:41:19.350
then became the T. Tempe teachers and
then become the A. And the A. Was

01:41:19.380 --> 01:41:24.777
put up finally Pretty substantial one.
The one that's up there now I think

01:41:24.810 --> 01:41:31.046
by the key club, Key club is a
national organization, a service

01:41:31.079 --> 01:41:37.116
organization. Before that at our
university had what was called 13 club,

01:41:37.149 --> 01:41:45.149
there were 13 members and then
subsequently it became the Brooky,

01:41:46.010 --> 01:41:52.307
Not boasting, but I happen to be one
of the 13, I still had the 13 number

01:41:52.340 --> 01:41:59.666
, he's at home. So then later on I was
out of school, they voted me in the

01:41:59.699 --> 01:42:03.967
blue. What's that? Bookie?

01:42:04.000 --> 01:42:07.467
But I think that's still going on and
I think they have some blue keys in

01:42:07.500 --> 01:42:14.067
the high schools to, it's a service
organization.

01:42:14.100 --> 01:42:17.586
You were mentioning something about a
bucket brigade. Oh yes, there used

01:42:17.619 --> 01:42:21.897
to be a little canal that went by the
base of the view and had a bucket

01:42:21.930 --> 01:42:26.437
brigade to get the bucket water and
handed up handed up and then the

01:42:26.470 --> 01:42:30.967
whitewashed the letter

01:42:31.000 --> 01:42:34.826
and then they used to guard the A two
before we played Arizona. So they

01:42:34.859 --> 01:42:39.866
would come and paint it blue all the
time. So they would have a group of

01:42:39.899 --> 01:42:45.347
fraternity. I think it would camp out
there day and night, you know, the

01:42:45.380 --> 01:42:52.637
week or so before the game. So they
won't come. They have a big a in the

01:42:52.670 --> 01:42:56.326
mountain. I don't know whether you've
been to Tucson or to the right And

01:42:56.359 --> 01:43:01.906
that's a huge, Great Big Rock one. And
once some of our boys took an

01:43:01.939 --> 01:43:08.267
airplane and some bombs went over
there and bombed and didn't even naked.

01:43:08.300 --> 01:43:12.576
So they cut that out. Then one night I
think they went and put the burned

01:43:12.609 --> 01:43:15.267
the a on the field.

01:43:15.300 --> 01:43:22.206
You know, you can't grow it back again
overnight, not overnight.

01:43:22.239 --> 01:43:27.017
And you were mentioning something
about bonfires to a bonfire. Yes. You

01:43:27.050 --> 01:43:32.626
see before they had the stadium, the,
the saddle of the two buttes, you

01:43:32.659 --> 01:43:38.256
know, they almost came together like
that. You think incidentally at the

01:43:38.289 --> 01:43:43.767
end on the river side that used to be
the city dump.

01:43:43.800 --> 01:43:49.057
Okay. But anyway, the beauty came this
way and we had a bonfire in between

01:43:49.090 --> 01:43:51.267
the buttes.

01:43:51.300 --> 01:43:57.076
So they were gathered would at least a
week in advance or longer and

01:43:57.109 --> 01:44:01.866
people would get the trucks or pickups
and go wherever they can find. They

01:44:01.899 --> 01:44:05.967
go out on the farm or someone has a
loose fence. So they'd probably pick

01:44:06.000 --> 01:44:14.000
it up. And one item is uh, the ancient
toiletries and they bring up one of

01:44:16.140 --> 01:44:19.956
the houses, put it right on the truck
and bring it in and they were pile

01:44:19.989 --> 01:44:25.786
it all up and then the night before
the game, then the football team and

01:44:25.819 --> 01:44:30.876
faculty and everyone incidentally
going out the wood going after would why

01:44:30.909 --> 01:44:36.057
? Usually about friday and no one went
to class. They would go out and

01:44:36.090 --> 01:44:41.317
look for wood and yes, I remember
there was, I forget his name now. Young

01:44:41.350 --> 01:44:46.057
english professor, young fellows and
he would get on the wagon and go out

01:44:46.090 --> 01:44:53.456
there and get the wood. Everyone had a
good time. I have a bonfire.

01:44:53.489 --> 01:44:57.156
But you would think it would be like
the one in texas. That's that's they

01:44:57.189 --> 01:45:02.256
build that up quite away, didn't they?
I don't think they have it anymore

01:45:02.289 --> 01:45:06.807
since the people got hurt. But it
wasn't a big one. Like that was no, ours

01:45:06.840 --> 01:45:12.027
wasn't that big. But we had lots of
fun though. Are there any other

01:45:12.060 --> 01:45:15.307
special things that you remember about
your many years here at the

01:45:15.340 --> 01:45:20.607
university that you wanted to tell us
about? No, I don't think so. Am I

01:45:20.640 --> 01:45:25.357
through there? I think so. I saw
pretty much covered most of these things

01:45:25.390 --> 01:45:28.956
. I think I didn't, I didn't think
you're gonna use that. I would have

01:45:28.989 --> 01:45:33.246
studied a little better. Well, tell
me, what, what is it about your years

01:45:33.279 --> 01:45:37.756
here that you're proudest of?

01:45:37.789 --> 01:45:44.876
Well, it all depends what, what
category, if it's sports. It's one thing

01:45:44.909 --> 01:45:48.256
and

01:45:48.289 --> 01:45:53.557
well, I think one of the proudest
moments is probably

01:45:53.590 --> 01:45:57.937
when I received the honorary

01:45:57.970 --> 01:46:01.446
and then my daughter

01:46:01.479 --> 01:46:05.887
hooded me and I think that doesn't
happen very often. I don't think even

01:46:05.920 --> 01:46:10.267
in modern times, I don't know whether
that ever happened. Someone should

01:46:10.300 --> 01:46:15.927
make a study of that. Any place in the
country. I don't think it could

01:46:15.960 --> 01:46:20.446
happen. I shouldn't say that. It will
never. But that wouldn't happen very

01:46:20.479 --> 01:46:26.647
often. I don't think you could have a
daughter do it. But not when she was

01:46:26.680 --> 01:46:34.680
vice president of the university. What
was your title when you retired

01:46:35.579 --> 01:46:40.147
associate professor, I think.

01:46:40.180 --> 01:46:43.637
Tell me a little, just in general, how
did you see the sports department

01:46:43.670 --> 01:46:48.347
grow and change while you were here?
The sports department?

01:46:48.380 --> 01:46:50.647
Well,

01:46:50.680 --> 01:46:56.097
what made it grow you say or just how
did it grow? How do you compare what

01:46:56.130 --> 01:47:02.246
it was when you came to when you left?
I don't hug and

01:47:02.279 --> 01:47:06.536
kind of a demand. I think,

01:47:06.569 --> 01:47:12.246
I mean we were in a certain league and
in order to excel in that league,

01:47:12.279 --> 01:47:15.546
there's something pushing you in kind
of a demand that we've got to do

01:47:15.579 --> 01:47:18.677
this if we want to do it. If we
didn't. We said no, we're not going to do

01:47:18.710 --> 01:47:23.357
it like Chicago member. They have some
great football teams and so forth.

01:47:23.390 --> 01:47:28.487
And then they said no more. There were
big stadium and they would use it

01:47:28.520 --> 01:47:33.777
. I don't think you see Chicago and
that was a great I think educational

01:47:33.810 --> 01:47:38.446
institution in that area or any place.

01:47:38.479 --> 01:47:46.017
So demand Almost any any field. You
got to have the demand, otherwise it's

01:47:46.050 --> 01:47:49.347
not gonna grow.

01:47:49.380 --> 01:47:54.347
When did you retire 78.

01:47:54.380 --> 01:47:58.116
So you were here when, when frank kush
was here. Oh, I went through with

01:47:58.149 --> 01:48:03.406
him. Tell me about that. What? I don't
know what you want to know about

01:48:03.439 --> 01:48:06.536
that. But yeah,

01:48:06.569 --> 01:48:10.906
Anyway, I can still see in the
physical education department there's steps

01:48:10.939 --> 01:48:17.126
going up and then right underneath
there were visited once and he said, I

01:48:17.159 --> 01:48:20.956
think I might have a chance to apply
for this job. I said, well, if you

01:48:20.989 --> 01:48:27.977
want it coach you go for it. Only uh,
suggestion I have is when you're

01:48:28.010 --> 01:48:34.836
assembling your assistance, be sure
that you get loyal people,

01:48:34.869 --> 01:48:39.807
if you're gonna hire someone, you know
that they played football and you

01:48:39.840 --> 01:48:46.397
tell them what you want done. If they
can do it, you get someone else. But

01:48:46.430 --> 01:48:50.927
be sure they're loyal to you. And when
this thing happened, some of them

01:48:50.960 --> 01:48:56.586
weren't loyal. You see that that's the
thing. Almost any organization I

01:48:56.619 --> 01:49:03.137
think is about the same. You don't
have the loyalty.

01:49:03.170 --> 01:49:07.847
And that night that he was told not to
coach. And that was against

01:49:07.880 --> 01:49:13.437
Washington, I guess that he went on
the coast anyway.

01:49:13.470 --> 01:49:18.166
And some of those assistants weren't
loyal, you see. So after the game, my

01:49:18.199 --> 01:49:24.807
wife and I went to his house and we
didn't know that he wasn't supposed to

01:49:24.840 --> 01:49:29.616
or many things happen. We didn't know.
We went there and he came out and

01:49:29.649 --> 01:49:33.956
said, where are the rest of people
with no one was there just the two of

01:49:33.989 --> 01:49:38.336
us.

01:49:38.369 --> 01:49:43.086
So I don't care what kind of
organization you you're running? I think you

01:49:43.119 --> 01:49:46.737
have to have loyal people

01:49:46.770 --> 01:49:50.137
is there and you've got to treat them
right to, otherwise they're not

01:49:50.170 --> 01:49:55.817
going to be royal. Maybe some of that
happened, I don't know. But my

01:49:55.850 --> 01:49:59.786
philosophy is if you're not happy and
you're like, you're not like the way

01:49:59.819 --> 01:50:05.826
or treated by your head coach, you
know, well, you should get out

01:50:05.859 --> 01:50:10.456
before you hurt someone and hurt
yourself and just go find another job or

01:50:10.489 --> 01:50:15.626
change your career. Do something else.

01:50:15.659 --> 01:50:19.626
How do you feel, looking back on your
career?

01:50:19.659 --> 01:50:25.017
Well, I I just stayed here and
sometimes I wish that maybe I should have

01:50:25.050 --> 01:50:30.626
changed a lot of coaches. They might
coach several different places like

01:50:30.659 --> 01:50:35.046
cutter. He's been not a head coach,
but that last place was his head coach.

01:50:35.079 --> 01:50:40.286
But other place he was assistant. But
I think he had in his mind, that's

01:50:40.319 --> 01:50:46.597
the way he's gonna learn the game
better maybe by going different systems

01:50:46.630 --> 01:50:51.987
and different head coaches and
assistants and so forth. So he was

01:50:52.020 --> 01:50:57.906
successful at Boise then I think
that's why he was picked up for here. But

01:50:57.939 --> 01:51:02.467
sometimes unless you're fortunate you
may not be able to turn the team

01:51:02.500 --> 01:51:07.717
over overnight. Yeah. And I'm sure
he's a good coach and has lots of

01:51:07.750 --> 01:51:09.727
experience,

01:51:09.760 --> 01:51:14.187
but you've got to give him a little
time, You know, you want something

01:51:14.220 --> 01:51:19.727
like a car to go 80 miles an hour
right now. It may burn out before it

01:51:19.760 --> 01:51:25.357
goes very far, but so far the team is
getting a little better. And then

01:51:25.390 --> 01:51:30.607
the quarterbacks, he started with one,
he's going to stay with that one. I

01:51:30.640 --> 01:51:36.067
don't say he was wrong. But then yeah,
that other fellows seem to be

01:51:36.100 --> 01:51:40.467
producing. So maybe you'll get to play
a little more. What made you stay

01:51:40.500 --> 01:51:44.727
with this school all this all the
time?

01:51:44.760 --> 01:51:46.927
Well,

01:51:46.960 --> 01:51:53.166
one thing coming back to loyalty then
I think the school got me where I

01:51:53.199 --> 01:52:01.199
was, you know, dr Gammage and coach
Slavic and all well then unless they

01:52:02.479 --> 01:52:08.336
hurt me, why I should be loyal to the
school,

01:52:08.369 --> 01:52:13.357
that's kind of a simple thing to say.
But but I think you always have to

01:52:13.390 --> 01:52:18.536
come back to loyalty and that goes to
any family, the Children or parents

01:52:18.569 --> 01:52:25.416
. I think there's gonna be some
loyalty to that unit that the family,

01:52:25.449 --> 01:52:32.116
but you stayed loyal long after the
doctor damage and coach were gone.

01:52:32.149 --> 01:52:35.217
And I use the word mentor,

01:52:35.250 --> 01:52:40.217
I think a mentor is someone that
teaches you and trains you

01:52:40.250 --> 01:52:45.557
and if he did a good job according to
the rules that should instill you to

01:52:45.590 --> 01:52:48.416
continue.

01:52:48.449 --> 01:52:53.817
If you change all the time, then you
didn't learn a good lesson.

01:52:53.850 --> 01:52:58.756
I mean, and loyalty and they were both
loyal, especially coach Leveque was

01:52:58.789 --> 01:53:04.256
loyal to me when I went away and
market, I was working for the school and

01:53:04.289 --> 01:53:08.246
she couldn't go with me and she was
gonna stay in a dormitory. And the

01:53:08.279 --> 01:53:12.916
logic said, no, you're not staying in
a dormitory. They took her home and

01:53:12.949 --> 01:53:18.376
and she stayed there forever. She
wanted to. But after the basic training

01:53:18.409 --> 01:53:24.506
, I came back to get her and they took
care of her. You know, all of that.

01:53:24.539 --> 01:53:29.647
 That's part of loyalty.

01:53:29.680 --> 01:53:33.866
Is there anything you wanted to ask?
No, I can't think of anything I just

01:53:33.899 --> 01:53:39.256
learned so much in the last couple of
hours. It's unbelievable. I hope. I

01:53:39.289 --> 01:53:44.746
wish you wouldn't say that because I'm
not I'm not a teacher

01:53:44.779 --> 01:53:50.496
told some stories, you know, before
World War Two that I wasn't aware of.

01:53:50.529 --> 01:53:54.916
 That was great

01:53:54.949 --> 01:54:00.397
and that so called depression. That
that was real tough.

01:54:00.430 --> 01:54:03.607
Some people ended.

01:54:03.640 --> 01:54:08.406
But a lot of people survived it too.
Well, yes,

01:54:08.439 --> 01:54:12.916
and some of us are still around that
went through that. Not too many

01:54:12.949 --> 01:54:17.307
though.

01:54:17.340 --> 01:54:21.956
Well, we certainly do. Thank you for
your time. Well, if you have any

01:54:21.989 --> 01:54:25.246
other, well, there's so many other
things we could ask you about, but I

01:54:25.279 --> 01:54:30.626
think we've got what we wanted to get
today. There's something that almost

01:54:30.659 --> 01:54:36.489
sounds like I might be coming back
again, you know,