start off here. Today is friday january 13th 2000 and six and I'm pam
Stephenson doing the interview. And Manny Garcia is our videographer and
we are doing a living history video interview for the Arizona State
University retirees association. And we are at the visitor's information
center of a issue at rural road and Apache boulevard. And I'd like to have
you introduce yourself if you could give us your full name. Sure my name
is George Eugene Amberson. And tell me when you were born and where you
were born. Well, I was born uh September 22, 1933 uh in a little town
called Hot Springs, New Mexico, which ultimately about the time I was a
senior in high school became known as truth or consequences New Mexico.
That's a long story that we won't get into except that my father always
said he was the truth that I was the consequence of Of that place. But on
the Rio Grande River and that's where I spent my 1st 18 years.
Um
tell me what, what were your parents doing there? Were they, Why were they
there? Well, my mother was a schoolteacher uh and my father ran a small
cafe and she went to summer school every summer. That was in the days when
people started teaching before they had degrees and I usually went with
her wherever when she was going to school and but that's what they were
doing at that point in time. This was during the depression of course when
I was small.
But you said you grew up until you were 18. Yes. I finished, finished high
school. There went back a few years ago for a 50th reunion and coincided
with the high school graduation and I was the commencement speaker. Mhm.
Okay. Were you a good student in school? I was wonderful in activities.
Uh I uh I was student body president. I was and heavy into music and heavy
into athletics and heavy into girls. And so I wasn't known as one of the
greatest scholars when I was in high school, but I managed to survive and
goodbye uh and had enough to get good enough grades to get on to college
of course. And did you have some goals then of what you wanted to do when
you went to college? Yes, I, I started in music. My parents Made a great
sacrifice and spent $300 for a saxophone in 19 40
two When I was about nine and uh, which was a fortune for them. And I
started on that. And by the second year I was playing in the high school
band, another fourth grade. That may not say much for the high school band
and the quality of it. Uh, when I was a year later, they bought me a piano.
And so I studied piano then from then all through high school and uh, it
had a lot of piano contests and that kind of thing. And then when I was in
the eighth grade, I played trombone because an uncle left me a trombone,
one who died left me a trombone. And then I became active in coral
activities and singing as I've done in church all my life. And so I had
music in almost in every direction of my life. My parents were singers,
not trained but good musicians. And so by the time I finished high school
, I, I had determined that I wanted to be a choral director. And so from
the day I stepped onto the college campus, why that was, that was my goal
in my pursuit. It's unusual to know so precisely what you wanted to do.
Well. Yeah. And I know there's a lot of people change their majors. My
oldest daughter, I remember said that she got her degree here in business
and she said, you know, they said in my class that Uh, that the average
student changes their majors 3.5 times and she said, I have .5 left. Uh,
and I know that that's the case of course, but I was fortunate and I
didn't, didn't veer from, from that goal and from that attainment.
Um, you said your family had been musical the brothers and sisters. No,
I'm an only child, but my, my dad was a song leader in church. My mother
read shape notes. Uh, she was, she went to singing schools back when she
was younger and so they learned shape notes of course. I never learned
that. But uh, she was a very good, very good reader, you know, musically.
And uh, so that was the extent of their music, but they recognized my
interests and were wonderful in supporting it. And of course had I not had
all that background, I'm, I'm not at all sure I would have gone on and
succeeded, you know, in music. Where did you go to college? I did my
undergraduate degree at Eastern New Mexico University, which is in Port
Alice, New Mexico on the east side of the state, a very fine small music
department there and happened to have studied with some people who were in
the early stages of mammoth careers. A man named robert Page who went on
to Temple University and then was robert shaw's assistant and he was my
main inspiration during those years. Then I started teaching As soon as I
graduated in 1955, tucumcari New Mexico, I was the junior and senior high
school choral director and took um, Carey, Which is now on I-40, it was
Highway 66 back in those days. And in intermittent summers, I was going to
the University of Iowa to pursue my master's degree and I did my masters
degree in vocal performance. And uh, then I finished that in 1958
and then I moved to Roswell, New Mexico. Uh, not long after the aliens had
appeared there and uh, I was the high school choral director there. I
really didn't enjoy being junior and senior high And so I wanted to just
work with the older kids. So I was there two years and then I was
intrigued or interested in going to a position at Pepperdine University in
Los Angeles at that point in time. And that's when the campus was down in
the Watts district. It's now out in Malibu and has been for years, but It
was in the watts district there and that was 1959. And uh, I only stayed
there one year saying with roger Wagner chorale because I was offered the
job back at my alma mater at Eastern New Mexico. And I thought that might
be a better place to raise kids and raise a family. So I came back there,
stayed 10 years as director of choral activities and director of opera
activities. And uh, in the meantime, the mid sixties I went to the
University of Northern Colorado where I pursued my doctorate and finished
it. And then in 1970 I had this hankering to see what I could do with a
full program if I were ever in charge of it. And it was kind of a
sacrifice with a big shift to give up some conducting, which I did day and
night. Um, and uh, so I took the head of the music school at the west
texas State University in Canyon texas, which is up in the Panhandle near
Amarillo and it's now called west texas A and M I think, And was there for
seven years as head of that music school. and then in 1977, I was uh
solicited by some people who knew me from here to look into the chairman
of the of the Department of Music here at that time at A. S. U. And I had
no idea whether I would be interested or whether I would have any
opportunity for this job. But subsequently I was interviewed and I thought
it was the most magnificent potential that I had ever seen in my life and
subsequently was offered the job. What was it about it that? Well, I felt
1st, 1st of all, I thought they had a very strong faculty ah and I thought
it it had already attained some national exposure uh and become known and
I just felt like that it was situated in an area and and that it could be
the premier program in the southwest and uh where the school I was in, I
would it would always be a regional school and I thought this had the
potential to be truly a national presence in music, which I really, it
really has turned out to be. And so uh in 1977, in the spring, I was
offered this job and I accepted to come here as the chairman of the of the
Department of Music, as it was known at that time. And what does the
chairman of the Department of Music? Well, essentially what later the
director of the School of Music did, and that was run the department run
the, run the music school, uh and with all of the inherent obligations of
, of curriculum budget hiring, of faculty fundraising,
uh, you know, all of the things that go into recruitment of students of
course, trying to improve the image of the, of the program to where we
would attract both top faculty and top students uh to come here. And of
course, as everyone knows in academia, that the only way you attract about
build a program to really high stature is with the top faculty. If you
have that, then the students will come up if you don't have that, the
students won't come. So that was really my highest priority at the time
along with facilities we were in uh, the round building over there, which
has been referred to as the birthday cake on occasion. Um and that's all
we had. And it was built to house 300 majors. They had moved in in 1971.
And at that time we had 550 majors Ultimately moving up to 750. And so we
were so crowded. We had people piled on top of each other. And so that was
another big issue and a big goal of mine as I embarked as the department
chairman here, we became a school, I petitioned the board of regions in
1980 for 79 or 80 to become a school of music of which is, uh, there's not
a lot of difference in the structure, but the title itself nationally has
a, has a significant impact on people's view of it. And so we made the
case and at that time we were changed to School of Music and my title
became director instead of a chair. Yeah, that's the director. I was going
to ask you who was Dean College of Fine Arts at that time. It was Jewel
Teller, Henry brian's mom of course was the Founding Dean in 1964 of the
College of Fine Arts. Uh, I replaced a man named Andy broke mama who had
been here for a number of years and went to Ohio State and then jules.
Heller followed bridesmaid as the dean. So he was here for eight or 9
years I think is my dean. It sounds like the director of the school. You
weren't that involved with music. Did you still stay involved with actual
conducting or not as much as I would have liked. In fact, I, I pretty much
had to recognize when I came here with the size and scope of this program
and the challenges that we faced in the goals that we set, that, that was
going to be more limited. Always missed that. I continue to do guests in
conducting. Uh, take advantage of guest conducting opportunities. Uh,
doing all state choirs with high school students and so on, but just
simply keeping up with that shop on a day to day basis. It was more than a
full time job II attended between 250 and 275 concerts recitals a year. Uh
because if you're going to run the show then you're going to know what's
happening and you're going to encourage people and have them in your
corner and know them to know that they're supported, you've got to show up.
And so my evenings and my weekends for 19 years, we're literally consumed
with going to concerts and recitals.
Did you still keep your hand in those somewhat of singing and directing?
Well, I can I continue to teach at least one class. Every semester might
be Coral conducting, it might be the Coral secondary music methods class
of the people that were going to be going out um on occasion I would teach
a voice class uh on a couple of occasions I took one of our directors
requires for sabbatical when they were on sabbatical, replace dr Douglas
McEwen in 98 92 I'm sorry, 82 who was our very nationally known choral
conductor and I happened to have done the moderate symphony, which is a
huge undertaking that semester. I always accused him of choosing the
semester that he was going to take off, but it was a big success. We did
it with the phoenix symphony. And So no, not until I really uh stepped out
of the director's chair in 1996. Did I get back in a very full time basis
for conducting, which was a wonderful thing for me. Mhm. We'll talk a
little bit more about coming to Arizona, you didn't come too far. Some
people came from the East coast or something, but someone to play with the
southwest. But was that a big step to to know my goal? And it was, I was
very fortunate on this. I never wanted to leave the southwest. I was the
southwest boy. I knew people in the southwest. I liked people in the
southwest. I liked the nature of the culture in the southwest. And so I
really kind of only looked at positions that were in this geographical
area. And uh and many people who seek college positions are not fortunate
enough to be able to do that. You've got to go where the job is, as you
know, but I happen to be in a position where I could more than more or
less pick and choose. So other than my one year out at Pepperdine, which
was still and not so far removed, but out of this immediate area. All my
teaching was in new Mexico texas and Arizona and I had made a decision
when I was at west texas state that if I ever left there, I would only go
if I could stay in the southwest. So this was a kind of a targeted goal
for me, not this particular school, but to, to live and, and enjoy and
raise my family in the southwest. So no, Arizona was an easy adjustment
for me. The only difficult adjustment was, I had always taught in
universities and small communities And of course Phoenix even in 1977 was
a bit of a culture shock to me. Ah and uh, but I, you know, I've never had
any regrets and nor my family and whatever. So, uh, we've always felt good
about, about not only coming here, but staying here as a young man when
you were involved with music, Did you ever have aspirations to have a
singing career or, you know, go to broadway or Hollywood? No, I always
wanted to be a conductor. Uh, no, I did quite a lot of solo work uh, when
I was in college and then even after I was out all those 10 years, I was
at Eastern New Mexico. I, I did quite a lot of solo work uh in various
places, but it was not my primary goal as far as a reputation as far as a
high priority. Uh, and ultimately developed lots of allergies and drainage
and things that are singers, nightmares. And finally, I kind of had to
give that up because it was too scary because I never knew. I always knew
what I was unless I was sick. I knew what I could do as a conductor. But
you know, if you're contracted to go sing with the symphony and you sing
poorly, uh, you know, that reputation will kill you and whether you can
help it or not. And so I enjoyed it, but it was never a priority for me
and never a goal, always conducting inspiring and working with people and
making music and touching their hearts and the audience's hearts and that
, that, that's been my life essentially. And I used the same techniques
that I used in rehearsal in trying to work with my 80 number of faculty in
the School of Music, you know, in terms of, of the people skills that I,
it cultivated as a conductor seemed to translate easily into
administration, explain that, how does that work well
in, uh, when you have choirs, people deserve two things, mainly they
deserve to be a part of something that's high quality and secondly, they
deserve to enjoy it and be inspired and be lifted up with it. And so as a
result, I, I always viewed it my challenge every time people came to a
rehearsal to be well enough prepared first of all. And it takes hours of
preparation, Some people think that conductors just go in and have a sing
along, you know, and uh uh, that I was very prepared to know how to, how
to use every minute to its best advantage, but to have fun uh, to have a
little humor in the rehearsal uh, to, to to challenge them, to inspire
them to let them know when it was achieving greatness to let them know
what it wasn't, but to, but to have a certain kind of aura and a certain
kind of chemistry with the group that is always upbeat and is always fun
and always inspirational and they go away feeling good about it and
knowing that something really positive was accomplished.
And so in translating that into administration, part of it had to do with
going to all those concerts and recitals and being supportive of my
students and in my faculty, sending them follow up notes of
congratulations, but your mere presence is the main thing that you come,
you know, uh in addition, uh keeping humor with people that can get very
serious about themselves, uh you know, uh my goodness musicians can just
become so focused and self centered about their little niche, you know,
And so I would keep them off balance somewhat hopefully in a good natured
way, but always giving, giving them full attention knowing they had been
heard knowing regardless of whether or not we ended up agreeing or not
that we knew how to disagree and that they felt good going away from my
office. Also the issue of public appearances and uh fundraising and
setting up a friends of music group, which I did community group and
things like that, those were all people skills that I applied in my
rehearsals that I translated into administration.
You mentioned the building you had when you first came and how crowded it
was. We're going to talk a little bit about how the department grew and
changed during the years. Yeah, well it was a, it was a perfect time to
come here because as I viewed when I came and interviewed, we were right
on right on the threshold of having the potential to really grow and to
become something special. There are some of the ingredients were already
here. We had some pretty good faculty. The facilities we had were fine and
of course with the damage, uh, concert hall, which when we could get in
and I won't get into that. Um, was, it was, it was a plus, but
becoming a school of music was critical. I felt to that. But the big, the
big things were threefold one was to be allowed to go out and get top
flight faculty when we had openings and back in those days. Although not
many people left here. We were adding positions and uh, I had as many as
10, 10 positions to fill in 80 or 81 and along in there and we were very,
very selective. We didn't wait to see who applied. We made sure that
people applied that we wanted, you know, that we really felt would add to
the prestige and the quality of our program and we were vigorous in that
and fortunately received good administrative support during those years
about doing that. And as I had stated earlier, that's the, that's the
cornerstone of any program at least in music is the faculty, a flute, a
flute student. If they're not gonna come here and study with somebody
that's a nobody in flute, but if you've got somebody that's
internationally recognized, they'll kill to get here trumpet. We were out
, we were out and about doing that all the time, identifying who we wanted.
Uh, and then of course the, the spin off of that was then getting top
students because those people are out doing concerts all over the world
and people, people are hearing about doing all state choirs, bands,
orchestras, students are being attracted to them, you know, and, and so it
feeds on itself and, and so we, we had this great kind of roller coaster
that what one fed off of the other, you know? And so then we begin to get
began getting some of the top students in the nation. I must admit that
one thing that really helped was that we were granted About in 1980, I
think what were called regent tuition scholarships for music actually for
fine arts, but we have been the ones that instigated the request and we
were given a significant number of in state and out of state scholarships
because in music it's, it's like athletics, everybody's after the top kids
, everybody wants those kids. And so you have to compete and you have to
compete hard and, and without some kind of financial aid, you're not gonna
even get off the ground, you know, because others, so we were very
fortunate that we had had some scholarship aid that was pretty significant
to allow us to go into the market and compete against the Eastman's or
even the Juilliard's and the indiana's and uh, you know, Illinois and, and
so forth. So that was very significant. The space issue was crippling. Uh
, and it almost, it almost did us in because we, we just couldn't, we
could hardly function. Uh, I had as many as two and three teachers trying
to teach full loads of private students in one studio trading off, you
know, uh, we had no place to put THS, we told them, you know, you bring a
blanket and we'll put you out on the lawn, you know, because we don't have
anywhere to put you, uh, because we were so crowded. And and of course,
immediately after I arrived, I began campaigning for additional space. But
it was tough because see we've only been in that building six years. Well
, we'd already almost already doubled the number that it was built for 30
faculty and about 300 music majors. And after I'd been here about five or
six years. No, well, by the time I came, we had about 500 majors and about
45 faculty. And about five or six years later we had 700 majors In about
70 faculty and still in the same space. And uh so it was a real struggle,
but I guess I can let the cat out of the bag here and and this at this
point in my life uh in 1984 we had a a 10 year, excuse me, 10 year review
for accreditation by the National Association of Schools of Music. And I
knew all of these three visitors and um I too was one of those people that
went about and did that all the time. And so I said, now if you c if you
decide no, I think some of them started saying something about our crowded
conditions. And I said, well, when you talk to the president, President
and the provost, please, you know, make a big case on that. And they came
back and said, well, we didn't seem to make much of an impression about
that. And I said, well you can't defer a school on budgetary issues, only
curriculum issues, but you can ask for progress reports on issues such as
space and budget and things where a couple of years later they come back
and say, how are you doing that? You know, we needed. So I said, whatever.
So they did, they put in progress That we want to see a progress report
in two years on your facilities and in two years a letter came and I wrote
back and sent a copy to the provost of the President saying I regret to
inform you that our progress report reports no progress on our building.
And I got a call from the provost at that time saying who authorized you
to write this letter and I said and I might as well use his name. I said
dr Kinzinger I uh you know I'm I'm the institutional representative here.
And uh I was I was asked well who says this is right? And I said well I
don't know anything different, Is there anything here? He said well get
over here. And I went over there and he said
he said you shouldn't have sent this letter and I said really? And he said
yes, he said, ow he said go in there and look at our bullet list of our
bonding priorities for new facilities and and I know he probably deny this
but uh al went in there and the third priority on the bonding facilities.
Something else had been white it out and music had been written in and
from that day forward we were in the hunt for new facilities. That was
about 1986. Now I don't know that that played a significant role but I've
always believed that it probably did anyway and we began planning and by
1998 we had architecture architects selected and all that for You. What
I'm sorry, 89, 88, 88, sorry, 88 We were had had planning committees and
university wide this and that when working with physical plant and and uh
we had architects hired then and began to look at new facilities. And so
from that day forward we were aggressively into it. Let bids, I believe in
the spring of 1990
And occupied it fully then in the summer of 92. That's all the wing,
That's everything with the music building that's not round over there.
That's not the five story round building. That whole wing that goes out
with a new library space with percussion space with rehearsal space with
jazz. Many, many more practice rooms and many, many more studios, two more
recital and organ hall to more recital halls. Just all the things that we
were desperate to either have, that we didn't have or that we needed more
of. And so I would have to uh, along with getting the School of Music name
change, getting the doctoral program, which I haven't mentioned of which
we had nothing at the time of a major D. M. A Doctor of Musical Arts
program in long, about 1980 or 81 which turned out to be a very nationally
prominent one. And getting those regions scholarships uh, to help us
become competitive. The biggest thing in my life probably over there that
I can say if I made a real major contribution. It was finally seeing that
building come to fruition and it's been, it's been wonderful. It's been
viewed by many, many as as a kind of a beacon of, of what music buildings
should be like. And we've had many, many visitors who come in who are
thinking of, you know, we're bringing architects to look and so forth. So
that occupied a large portion of my life for a number of years as I was
the director.
Why don't you go back and talk about the doctoral program? Sure.
When I arrived, I found out that the previous year, My predecessor had
sent about five or 6 new doctoral proposals over to the graduate college,
of which no one ever does. That mean I'm not being critical. He was trying
to do the best, but you know, graduate college is just, they don't,
they're not going to give you six new doctoral ph D s or D M A s, you know
, I mean up front and they turned them all down. And so we had to go back
to the drawing board and decide what we could really do well and then how
we could do it. And then put in a much leaner, but much more qualitative
proposal. And so we put in a proposal for uh solo performance
within the various instruments and we put in a proposal for essentially a
conducting degree, uh, which had a music education component in it because
most choral directors who go into college end up teaching certain music
education coral methods or whatever. And so basically, and that was an
instrumental and Coral Orchestra and band. And so basically that's all we
went in for initially. Later on we did a D. M. A. In. Uh, let me say that
the Doctor of Musical Arts degree is the primary doctoral degree in, in
the field of music. There are phds in fields such as music history,
musicology, her music theory. Sometimes the music had, but the D. M. A. Is
the recognized doctoral program in, in music. And that's what we went for.
And as a result, we did all our homework. I spent a lot of time with Rudy
, Campbell and dr Payne who were kind of the issue reps on the region
board of Regents at that time. I still love ready Campbell see him at the
ball games all the time. And he was a great advocate for us. Even served
on our friends and music board for a while and got them all primed to help
us. You know, and uh, and you have a, we knew was going to fight it. Uh,
they wanted to be the only kid on the block with a doctor in the state,
which is not a new story and a number of academic areas I know, but we
felt like we've done our homework and chuck Wolfe who was the graduate
dean went up with myself and my associate director to Flagstaff to the
Board of Regents meeting. And uh, it was passed. And from that day forward
we were flooded with applications for our doctoral program because we had
such well known people that people wanted to come here and study with,
particularly dr McEwing, who I mentioned as a choral director and uh, and
you Eugene Lombardi, who was the orchestra director. And so it just took
off, just took off and so we were deciding who not to take almost after
that, you know, which was a nice, nice thing. We had so many applications
and it continues to thrive and has been a very effective program for us,
bringing in wonderful, wonderful people who have gone on in to find
college teaching positions. I think we figured we have over 100 of them
out there now that are in college and university positions. And uh, so
that's been a, that was a wonderful thing that was necessary. And for us
to take on this national presence, we had to have a viable doctoral
program. Yeah. Um looking through your kind of summary of your career that
I found here, it talks about all of the different choirs that you've taken
two different tours of europe and things like that a little bit about Yes
, you know, one of the greatest things about academia is that uh, in, in
the corporate world, the ceo doesn't usually go back to the assembly line
, but in, excuse me, in academia, you know, if you're a tenured
administrator at some point in time, you have the luxury of going back and
doing whatever it was that got you here in the first place usually or got
you into music. and so in 1996, Uh well in action in 1995 I decided that
it was time for me to let somebody else have all that fun. And I uh, I
went in and told at that time Dean Wills, I had just been here two years
and and told him that after I was giving him a year's notice that I wanted
to move back into the faculty and so I did a year later and what a great
time I had for six years just going back and worrying about nothing but
making music and being with students, you know, after all that time. And
so I taught choral methods, I taught choral conducting. I observed student
teachers uh and uh then the, the the most fun thing I had was I took over
the issue Coral Union, which Uh at that time was, Oh, it was about a 200
voice group, I guess primarily consisting of community people. It had
evolved over the years where it was a big participation by community
people and uh, it was probably 85% community people uh and students who
wish to could participate, but they were in the university choir and
concert choir and jazz choir. And you know, and so and so it was a sin,
it's a symphony chorus is what it is and they do works with symphony. And
at that time they were the the primary choir chorus for the phoenix
symphony as well as performing with the A. S. U. Symphony that occurred in
19. I actually started that in 1993 because there was a turnover in our
Coral faculty. So I took the Coral Union three years before I got out of
administration, which was a kind of a nice transition for me as I moved
back into my discipline. And uh so I actually uh and tim russell who was
who is still our choral director, timothy, orchestra director, who's
wonderful and has a great one of the best college symphonies I think in
the nation. He came at that same year 93 and we can, you know, we work
together and uh uh had collusion with many, many works as well. And but I
just had the greatest time with those people. Uh we continue to upgrade
the group and be more and more selective so that we had top line singers
in there, not just a come y'all come kind of group, you know, so that it
could really achieve what I hoped would be greatness and we accomplished
that over a period of years with more and more stringent auditions and and
so forth, although we were not, we were not about to turn people out who
were in there, but if as we had had turnover? We we, we we held out for
really good strong singers and you know, there's a difference in, in a
group like that and a student choir, student choirs, are they love it or
they wouldn't be in there, but they also are there because they have to be
, they go, they're there because they're required to be, none of those,
adult people are required to be there there, there only because they want
to be there and they love it and on Tuesday nights they couldn't wait, you
know, because that's their manner for the week, you know, from being a
computer analyst or a lawyer or a doctor or a teacher or, you know,
whatever else they did. And as a result, they just were wonderful to work
with because they just couldn't get enough. You could just, they just
opened up and you just kept pouring it in, you know, and uh, they, so that
was such a great thing for me and, and I kept that then for nine years
from the three before I got administration and in the six before I retired.
And as a result, then we started uh uh, talking about touring and one of
the advantages you have is that with a group like that, unlike a student
group, you don't have to get out and raise all the money, you know, you
just say it's going to cost this much, how many can go and you know, how
many want to go do we have a balanced group, do we have enough that you
know, and and because they normally have their own resources and so we
didn't have to sell garbage cans and things like that, you know, to raise
money as student groups, you know, primarily have to do, although we did
raise quite a lot of money to scholarship some of our own strong singer
students who would go along to help bolster uh the group and a lot of of
our people even contributed money to scholarships for students as well as
paying their own way. So in 95 we jumped off and tried that with the
company that was very well known of of having representatives all over the
world and could have good content because what we wanted to do was
performed with orchestras in the various countries we went to And so we
did the first year we took about an 80 voice choir and went to the Czech
Republic in Germany and performed with orchestras there in Karlovy vary
and in Prague and in Munich and it was a big success. Well they wanted to
do it again. So in 97 we had more than 100 singers and usually then we
would take another 25 to 40
uh spouses and friends who just went along, you know, which help pay our
way, you know as well because they were paid customers and so we went to
England and France and saying are saying of the great modeling cathedral
in downtown Paris on their concert series one Sunday afternoon with 1700
people in the hall that held 1100 and they were hanging from the statues
and everything. One of the most memorable occasions we ever had and I have
a picture of that with that audience, oh my wall. And then three years
later we went to Australia, which I never thought we would be able to
mount And we took 100 and 60 people then About 130 singers I guess. And uh
, and one of the things this company did was provide us with supplemental
tours if anybody wanted after our singing tour was over and we would only
schedule three concerts. So in a two week period they had plenty of free
time to do other things. We didn't just some choirs go over there and
seeing 10 concerts in 11 days, you know, and are dead and so uh in that
case they had a tour, a supplemental tour to New Zealand and went up into
cans up in the northern area and so people had that option or to come home
after the two weeks. So we sang in Melbourne and in Canberra and in Sydney
with those symphonies and it was wonderful, you know, and, and to interact
with those orchestras, you know? And then lastly in 2002, which was my
Swan song uh we went to Italy and we sang in Rome and Florence and venice
with orchestras from there and I found that the language is never a
problem. Musicians can communicate whether you whether you're talking or
not, I can sing sing them a phrase I can, you know, and there are always
enough in the, in the group that speak english that they can help
translate if you need. It started out the first year with the translator,
it killed me, my my rehearsal just died. I was saying now tell him this
and he wasn't a very good music and by the time he told him, I mean we'd
all gone to sleep, you know, so I said, never again will I have a
translator, I will communicate with them in whatever ways and it worked
fine. And so my last concert was in the Ferrari basilica in venice, one of
the most beautiful with the big Titian painting behind behind us there uh
doing the multi requiem and that's the most, we have tapes of all these of
course and that's one of the most memorable and moving experiences I ever
had in my life and of course the choir was very emotional at night because
they knew it was my last concert, but before we went in I said, you know,
now you've been asking me how do I feel about this and I said, I have a
lot of mixed emotions, but I'll tell you one thing, I'm not gonna go in
there and and, and cry tonight, I'm gonna go in there and focus and make
this the most beautiful experience I get and you better do the same
because they were kind of weepy in this and that, you know, and they did
and uh right after that and then I'll, I won't relate to this, but the
whole group took my wife and I had, and I didn't know what they were going
to do and they took us down to one of the canals there and they had a
gondola waiting with the guy with his hat and all put us in the gondola
with flowers, flowers for K and a bottle of wine for us, set us off into
the night with the choir singing o solo me, Oh, I don't know how you could
go out any better than that. I don't, I don't know how you could ever beat
that, you know? So that was my final concert. But that's a long way around
saying what a great, wonderful thing it was that I could go back in and do
what I, I love doing really the most with wonderful people and and have
those kinds of experiences and those tours and all and and finish out like
that. So it was a good way to go. Sounds like a great, you need to get a
drink. It's
still rolling. Mhm. One of the things I remember I came here and worked at
Channel eight in the late eighties and early nineties and it was cool the
music did something called two of this program on that. Sure. Well we
brought a fellow the best tuba teacher in the whole nation. In from the
University of Illinois Uh in 1982 named Dan Pierantoni. And in fact, you
know there was a there was a uh there was a contract out on my life in
Illinois I think because I brought the top teacher, trumpet teacher and
the top tube a teacher in the nation from the University of Illinois and
the top musicologist that year from southern Illinois all to A. S. U. And
I was told by one of my friends when we were doing a from Illinois that
when we were doing a uh a accreditation review he said I suggest you don't
go to Illinois uh Because they'll be after you. This even made the
headlines of the Chicago tribune because the university of Illinois was
having great difficulty keeping their faculty. But parent only came here
and he started this and and uh it's just the most fun thing because they
do a whole series of evenings all around Halloween. Uh And sometimes with
costumes some not and so sample Afeyan who is equally as good after
Pierantoni left. Uh They do all these different brass and tuba concerts
and uh, you know, who would ever think you'd want to go here on the
evening of october but they spiced it up so you know that it's just
intriguing and fun and he's kept up the tradition. So it's uh, it's, it's
a fun thing.
It seems to be something unique anyway. I don't know what other schools or
something like that before. Um let's see. Mhm. When you came here, did you
plan on making Arizona State University, your final career or you
know, uh I had not moved a lot, but in my first years I moved pretty
frequently with the high school jobs and so forth. But I've been at
Eastern New Mexico University 10 years and then at west texas state seven
, But I was only like 43 years old and I didn't know if I would like it, I
didn't know if I would stay. Uh and in fact I even took the optional
retirement plan rather than the state plan because I had to draw my money
out of two states, you know, because I moved uh but uh there wasn't much
doubt at all after I had been here a little while as I saw just moving up
like we had dreamed of and almost exceeding our dreams that, that, you
know, where else would I go, where would that be? You know? And uh, I had
contacts as everybody does from other schools and and so forth. And as our
reputation flourished, why naturally those things occur. But it just,
there really wasn't any thought I ever had about, about going anywhere
else after I got here. And, and, and after I assembled the faculty that I
had, that was so inspirational to me to be around. And the quality of
those kids that were coming in here, just top flight from all over the
nation. And then we got our facilities. Well, why would you go anywhere
else? You know? So although I had no, no idea that I would finish my
career here, uh, I hadn't been here long before. I knew that.
Did you see a change in, in students over the years? Well, the students
come mind blowingly more talented all the time. You just don't think they
can get better and they do, uh, coming out of the public school programs
or the graduate students that are coming in here now to study with certain
teachers, you know, and so forth. Um, and, and I believe that I see a much
more serious attitude towards music making. Uh, I think in 1977 we had
quite a lot of that, but first of all, they didn't bring as much to the
table. The talent wise or at least, uh, their, their previous training had
not brought them to the level that we, we would hope and I saw that just
continue to escalate. But in addition to that, and in in tandem with that
was the issue of a much more serious approach to their careers and to
music making. One of the things we tried to do was to weed out those kids
that clearly had no business being in music, you know, for their benefit
as well as ours. And so we instigated a uh an audition system which wasn't
in place when I came here, anybody that wanted to could major in music,
and a lot of kids majored in music that just had a wonderful sing along
and happy experience in high school choir who had no talent and who really
were doing themselves such a disservice, you know, to come and try because
they clearly could not succeed and not only that, but then it took up
spaces in the studios and all, you know, that kept others out. And so
although we made sure that, as I said, we never going to standardize
ourselves out of business by being so selective that, you know, we get the
reputation that nobody can get in, but we begin to elevate the level by
because we did turn a lot of students down and we did it gently and we did
it kindly, but we would say this is just not for you, you know, we know
you love music, you know, we know it's in your heart and it will be all
your life and we hope it will be and that you'll keep singing or keep
playing, but but you know, this is not, this is not the thing you ought to
pursue as a career and then that left room for better and better students.
And is that and that feeds on itself, the quality feeds on itself. And as
a result of that, we just escalated our level of kids that were coming in
more and more and the better they are, the more serious they are about it
, you know? So that's kind of how that evolved. And we did an awful lot of
students a service by encouraging them not to major in music because what
happened usually they'd come in last a year or two and then they knew it
wasn't for them, but they had wasted a year or two, you know, so it's not
an easy thing to do. But if you're honest, you must do that in a music
school. You hear that more and more public schools are cutting back on
music and arts programs. How do you see that affecting the students that
will be coming? Oh, I've worried about this my whole life. When my
Children were in school in Port Alice New Mexico in the 1960s, this the
board came up and was going to cut back the music program. And I was down
there waging battle, you know, holding forth trying to convince people
that the arts have validity and that they fill a youngster's life up and
they go on and on and on, you know, and so this really isn't new. Uh, it's
tiresome that somehow people don't get the message that music and the arts
are not a frill, you know, and I'm not going to get on a soapbox here
because we'd be here for two hours, uh, or six. Uh, but uh, yes, it's also
always worrisome, but we do battle. My wife is an elementary music teacher
in the Kyrie in district and she, it went to every board meeting last year
, every study session that they had, every budget session that they had. I
mean, I hardly saw her because she was so determined to know what's going
on and to try to refute it and to try to instill in them the, the values
of what they had in that district and was successful to some extent. Uh,
but this is a, this is a never ending battle because the arts and music
particularly seemed to always be out there on the plate if somebody's got
a needing to saw it off budgetarily, you know, and so what we do is accept
the fact that that's a battle we're always going to have to fight, that
we're never gonna give in, you know, and then we're gonna keep on, keep at
it and do everything we possibly can to refute it. Uh, now, I know it
happens on occasion, you know, when prop 13 came through in California
almost wiped out the arts completely. Uh, you know, just just scuttle the
school music programs, but they gradually work their way back, you know,
one step on the ladder at a time, but this is not new, but it's
unfortunate, but I can tell you one thing we ain't given end. Uh, we were
gonna remain steadfast. I go to some of those board meetings still, uh,
you know, and I've been asked to come and speak to various groups or
various board meetings or study groups, you know, and, and I run and do it
every time I get a chance. So it's a never ending battle. But it isn't
what it isn't one we're gonna lose and it isn't one we're going to stop
fighting. Do you see it at the university level where the emphasis now is
on the research university and all of those things that bring in the huge
grants is the School of Music out.
How candid would you like for me to be? Well,
I'm worried about what's going on right now. Uh, as far as the arts are
concerned, I mean, I don't I don't argue with Michael Crow about what he's
viewing is important at this point in time and I I'm sure he's a 21st
century president that has some agendas that other people wouldn't have
had 10 years ago and all of that, but I worry about whether he really has
a sense of the value that the arts bring to the university and as they
have done for 40 years, at least, uh, for many, many years there are lots
of people on this campus who would tell you, who aren't in music that as
they go around the nation. The first thing people would talk about was
their music school out here. And, and in many cases that was the case, you
know, that, that we were known for music and ultimately for the arts. And
, and uh, many back when they were trying to, I don't know, in the
eighties, the regions were trying to identify what the usa on excel at and
what a s, you ought to excel that you remember all of that. And of course
fine arts was right up there with the issue and it wasn't with you of a,
which they really didn't like at all. And I found over the years that with
most of my administrators, uh, we, we always got our fair share and, and
our fair share of appreciation as well as a demonstration of it by
whatever resources that we could get. Uh, and uh, I think carl Dannon felt
as a provost, I felt like Russ nelson was of course a very uh, sympathetic
person to the arts. Benita served on our, uh, board of friends of music. I
thought he always had music in the arts as a, as a priority. And, and, and
that had a lot to do then with my being able to go out and get those
faculties because some of them didn't come cheap obviously, you know, but
that was that was our story and and then uh and and and and then on down
as we and I know back President Durham before I came was a big arts art
supporter. Uh, and I don't know about Suada that he was so much, but he
didn't hurt us I don't think. And so we've had some pretty good
administrative support. Latiker I felt was it was a pretty good supporter
I think milt at least, certainly has always been sympathetic to the arts.
I'll tell you the best provost I ever had. Would you like to know who
that was. Elmer Gooding.
Albert Gooding was the stand in for about four different times. And Elmer
Gooding and I fought tooth and toenail to get him permanently appointed
because he I thought he was fair, I thought he listened, I thought he knew
this university inside out and I felt like and he certainly was not
favored towards the arts, but he certainly was was there when you needed
him. And the only reason I gave, I considered to serve on the board of the
retirees association was because Elmer twisted my arm and you know, and I
felt if anybody else had asked me, I probably wouldn't have done it, but
he certainly was, in my opinion, the strongest provost I ever had. But
that doesn't, that's not putting the rest of them down. Uh, you know, or
anything like that. But, so overall, I think the administrative support in
general was there. I'm not sure now. I'm not sure about what the arts are
kind of a, an afterthought with President Crow. Now he might, I would hope
he would take great issue with me on that, you know. But I know that he
has some other priorities that are so, uh, hi with him, uh, that I don't
hear him talking a lot about the arts and, and I worry about that. And I
know some of our people worry about that, you know, So where we go from
here? I don't know. I have to tell you that. I'm glad I'm not in there
doing a battle right now. You know, I always said that as director of the
School of Music and I gave a speech to the texas, Music educators
Association a few years ago, all the directors and, And, and, and I said,
you know, I always viewed administration as, 80, 20, 80 80% Problems and
junk all day and 20% maybe if you're lucky that you can have vision and
positives and that's a pretty fair Assessment, I think really, I mean, you
know, not that it's all terrible, but you're dealing with problems 80% of
the day. Uh, and uh, and I don't know if it would be that good now, let's
see,
talked about a lot of things here, but let's are there any special things
that any special events or memories of things that happened here, that
you'd want to be sure and talk about?
Oh, I'm not sure
one of the things that I was very proud of at the time was forming a
friends of music board that was very supportive of us. And then we
solicited members, you know, and helped us with scholarships and had golf
tournaments and other things, which was a good way to get community
involved. And I was always very proud of that. I'm not sure that's
functioning as it did at this time. I don't I don't know, but I do
remember that was very gratifying to me too, have a community support
group that I started it. I just I felt we needed that we needed that
external presence and that external help. And as a result, I, you know,
well, the person that helped me the most was Catherine Gammage
in getting that started, because I mean, Catherine Gammage knew everybody
that was anybody or anybody that was there, I don't know, you know? And so
she and I she was working at the at the development office and she and I
conspired about people that we ought to sit down and talk with that might
have an interest in this as in addition to helping us two steering oars
toward others who might have an interest in this. And so together we spent
a lot of time visiting with various people, mostly people of means that
she could identify that we talked to and all who thought it was a good
idea, some who didn't want to be active, but who put us onto others. And
so it took me two years to get it launched. So in 1979 we formed it, we
formed our first board, put out our first brochure of our membership
brochure and the various levels of, of involvement. And, and it went from
there and we had all kinds of special concerts featuring our students, you
know, and that kind of thing, special evenings for friends of music, uh,
where we uh, featured in those kids that had received scholarships from
friends of Music. And then, as I said, we had one fellow that was a master
running a golf tournament And he made about 25 to 30,000 a year for
several years on that. And so it was very effective and, and whether we'd
raised a lot of money or not, it was a, it was a very good uh, canal into
community and helped us become much wider known and got a lot of pretty
significant community people involved, like I said, Ready Campbell served
on their board for a while, but Nita nelson served on our board for a
while, uh, many others. And so that was, that was a very successful thing
that I felt we needed. And I was glad that we did it.
Mhm, Do you think that the community has appreciated what the school of
music has offers to them here? Yes and no. Uh I have been, I've heard it
said that the school of music is the best kept secret in phoenix in terms
of what you could get high quality for free. You know, people pay a lot of
money to go here, the phoenix symphony or whatever. And I would tell you
right now that I would put rsu symphony up against the phoenix symphony
any day of the week right now. And so yes, we do get large crowds for for
a lot of those programs and yes, I think there is a a constituency out
there that really does know the quality of what's going on. But I have to
tell you that, I think we're much better known nationally than we are
locally. You know, I think that's not necessarily unusual, but the local
kid, you know, it's just over there they issue uh and and naturally I
think you could you could canvas For instance the what five, music
executives of schools of music across the nation that are members of
National Association of Schools of Music. And I think they would identify
our school in the top 10, both private and you know, I mean U. S. News and
world reports had us in there very high for years and but I don't put a
lot of stock in there, but the I would say most of them would have a sc
school of music in the top 10 and I have high respect and I'll tell you
why because of the faculty we brought in here, their internationally known
and they're impacting people, you know, and so going to those conventions
always, we had high, high respect, you know, from everybody and they, and
and many of them and want to refer their students on here for graduate
work. You know, that that was a natural thing. So we probably much better
known and appreciated outside of the community than we maybe within. Uh,
and we always kept fighting. But you know, you see all these things in the
newspaper about all these other things that are going on, but you hardly
ever see anything about school of music. And it isn't because we don't
have some folks over there cranking out the stuff uh, for some reason it
just doesn't seem to be good copy. Uh, and so I think it has a lot to do
with the local versus the national, that's my perspective because you well
, you know, we've, well they are charging now for faculty recitals and
that kind of thing and and there's really been a lot of debate about that
, but we have always kind of viewed it as a service to the community
because there are tons and tons and tons of white haired people in those
audiences that I don't think really could afford to go to other $20 and
$25 events, you know, and so with our major ensemble things and our big,
we call, we charge a little for the christmas holiday concert and, and,
and so forth. But uh, pretty much we've kept it free and, and that's been
a debate over the years about should we, or shouldn't we charge? But our
philosophy has held that we should, we should, if we can, we should
probably, and so you see, and you get into the debate of the trade off of
how much money would we make versus how much crowd would we lose? And
would we be better to have a half a house or a full house kind of thing.
So, uh, we, uh, to, to date the decision for the major ensemble
performances has been no, we're not gonna charge. I can't answer the
question, but that's the philosophy that we've held to so far. No,
no, no. And and we, we have, we have discussed that, we have discussed
that on numerous occasions. Um, were there any challenges that you've had
during your career here, of things that you want to accomplish, that maybe
you weren't able to, Well,
The early in the early 90s budget crisis almost made me quit?
Uh, it was so serious. uh, my day then was 99% and one, you know, if that
with the terrible, terrible budget crisis that we went through and uh, I
lost three faculty positions during that time of one only instrument
teachers, you know, who's gonna teach flute, the janitor, you know? Ah,
and, and, and that was, that was such a, such a devastating thing uh, to
me and for our faculty toe and my advisory council to always be meeting
and figuring out how we were going to survive with the next wave of cuts.
You know, when 92% or something of your budget is faculty salaries and
they say cut,
you know, And you, and you barely even getting by on the 8% for operating
, and you know, uh, you just can't exist And uh, and, and it's so easy for
the administration of the legislature or whoever was picking on us at the
time to say cut,
you may have to cut four more percent, you know, second semester or the
midyear cuts. We had some midyear cuts that were just devastating. I mean
, here we had, we had ta is committed for the year and we got lost half
our budget, you know, so nothing in my opinion, uh, compares in answer to
your question to what we encountered then, I, I really gave serious
thought to going back into teaching then because my days were so grievous
because everything that we had to do was just so crushing to us. And yet I
felt, you know, I'm just crusty enough and I can go in there and bang on
their desk and you know, and and knocked the lamp over now and then, you
know, and what are they gonna do fire me be my guest, you know, and I
thought if a new person comes in here, they'd just be run over like a
steam roller, you know, so I ground it out and we survived and things
finally began to get better and I got those positions back ultimately.
Finally. Ah, But but that there's nothing over my 19 years of
administration or my 25 years on the faculty that compared with that, with
that budget crunch, I will never forget it. And and I think it, I think it
took a toll on me, you know, physically emotionally because you can't, you
can't love what you do and what you're doing, who you're doing it with to
the extent that I did and not take it very personally when you see things
happen that are going to, to hurt people, to cut programs to hurt what you
built, you know, and uh, so that, that was the king of of my, my
challenges, all the others buildings curriculum, you know, we, we, we, we
, we fought those battles, we'd win some and we'd lose some, but there was
nothing ever like that during the time I was the director.
So that was an easy question to answer.
We talked about the people that you've worked with here, are there any
mention quite a few not to mention that important time here? Well, you
meet people I worked for our people that worked that worked under me or
both? Well, uh, I was always very grateful to my three deans, jewish
Heller and uh, Sy Rosen and then bob Wells, who I worked with for a couple
of years. Uh, they were all good and they were all supportive and they
listened to me and they, I think represented me well with the
administration. I want to be cared that I always wanted to be a separate
college of Music.
And there are some schools around the nation that have that because when
you're in a, in a college of Fine Arts, you never have direct access to
the real decision makers.
You never know for sure how your dean represented you on something that
was really important to you. He could come back and say Bill didn't want
to do that, you know? And he could have said, George wants this, wants to
do this, but I don't think it's a good idea. But what do you think? You
know, and I'm not saying they did that, but I'm saying that I was very
envious of some of my colleagues around the University of Colorado, uh,
and several others that had direct access to the real decision makers And
our, our program with 800 music majors and the science faculty we had was
certainly larger than most of those schools that had independent status.
Whether would have been better off or not, I don't know, and it's really
not relevant other than the fact that I do think by and large we were
represented. Well, uh, the faculty that I brought in, uh, I don't want to
really get into listing of all, but we just, we almost always made great
hires and that was for two reasons. One, we sought them out and recruited
him and to the administration practice to go get him
something that most of the colleges are working on now is having their own
development departments and doing their own fundraising. Did you
only only in a peripheral way. Ah, Really the only thing we were doing now
, I've been out of administration 10 years this year. I got out in 96. Of
course I stayed on the faculty another six. But um,
at that time, the biggest thing we were doing was trying to raise more
scholarship money and to keep us competitive. I was not having to raise
our operating budget. I was not being expected to get out and you know, do
a lot of that that the people in there and those jobs are now, I know,
wayne bailey, my, our current director, you know, he, he's challenged with
his, his, his bob wells, the dean with is the university coming up with a
sizable percent of their, of their funding to operate now, you know, as
the legislative appropriations have continued to diminish over the years.
The universities had no choice. I've been impressed and with what laddie
and I guess what you're doing, Crow's doing now too to raise a lot of
private money. I think they've made a big headway with regard to
convincing people that state universities need money. And when I was an
administrator, people really didn't even think about that. You know, you
get state money, you know, and so there's no reason for you to no reason
for us to give you your our money because you get state money. But I, I do
believe that Laddie and Michael Crowe have have changed the mindset of the
community or the, you know, the public at large about that. I think
they've been very successful. Um, I don't think I would like to have to
raise money. Imagine if you were building a building.
Well, we did at that time actually, you know, we have cats in the hall,
which is, Was contributed $2 million dollars by David Katzen. And so we
had some others. Even then we were doing that. Yes. In fact, we raised
Well over $1 million dollars to help us supplement the needs that we
needed for that building, primarily equipment Because, you know, grand
pianos don't just sashay in the door for 50 cents, you know, and so I did
a lot of it in that sense. But I had a, the specific gold with a specific
timeline, you know, and it wasn't for our existence. It was only to help
us do better what we, but I think there's a lot of pressure now on school
directors and deans to raise an enormous amount of their budget. And I
don't think I would like to do that. I, I I like to center my time on
curriculum, on music making on faculty, on students, on the things that I
thought that's what music administration was about when I got into
unfortunately remained that pretty much while I was there. But I don't
think it would be much fun. Now, is there anything particularly that you
did during the time you were here that you want to be remembered for? Well
, I think the thing that I will be remembered more foremost is the
building, I think everybody, at least in the school of music, knows that
they wouldn't have those wonderful facilities had I not, you know, waged
battle and manipulated and done whatever else I had to do to get that. Ah
, I think the two things that, and I think the precedent for setting an
unwavering quest for top faculty, I don't believe that was the, that was
the rule of thumb prior to my arrival in the, in the music program. And uh
, so I would, I'm sure if you would about over there now and ask Faculty
who of course are still there that I hired, which about probably 3/4 of
them, I guess. Still, I'm guessing that those would be the two things they
would say would be the most significant. We're getting space where we
could really have a first class program and bringing in the faculty to
ensure that it happened.
Is there any particular memory you have of the time you were here? It's
special to you.
Mm hmm.
Joy.
Oh,
I was so lucky to get this job.
There were many, many people that would have loved to have had this job
and I haven't a clue yet how I was fortunate enough to get it.
But
They're really other than the early 90s, there were really very few days
that I didn't come up here and look forward to it. Uh, and there aren't
all that many people in this world that can say that about what they get
up and go do every day. You know, I was very lucky that I, uh, that I
found music and music found me first of all, which opened the door for
everything else we've talked about today. I was very lucky that I was able
to Get into college and university teaching, which was my goal when I was
25 years old. And, and, and then I was very lucky to, as I told you about
geographical living in, in areas that I wanted to live in. But then
specifically to come to this place, which had the potential. Unbelievable
and uh, to have the joy of, I believe seeing a lot of that develop doesn't
mean where, where we can, where we can still grow and still be better. But
there was a real joy of being at A. S. U. And knowing that we had the
potential to be great and that in many ways we became that and so I can't
identify a specific thing, but in a general sense
I came to work every day here, looking forward to it and having fun. And
even when I was consumed with problems, uh it still was fun because it was
a challenge solving them, you know, but, and and and and hopefully
creating an environment
that people were comfortable and like to work in and I believe most of the
people over there would attest that that's how they felt during our years
that I was, I was there and I'm not taking all the credit for that. But
first of all I brought in, I was careful about who I brought in. Not only
that they were great in their field, but they were decent human beings and
I turned down some giants in their field on occasion because they were
jerks, you know, we have a few of those in music. Uh and and uh so I was
very careful about that because I wanted people that, that not only wanted
to be here and we're great, but that really could get along and that would
build that kind of spree decor up and you know, I picked on people I, we
laughed at faculty meetings. We, you know, but, but over and above all
they knew we were headed toward greatness and, and so I think there was an
environment that not only created that joy for me, but for the people,
they came to work every day here and I think and they've told me that many
times how much, how much they appreciated being able to come up every day
knowing they were going to be traded fairly, knowing they were going to be
appreciated and knowing they were going to be encouraged. And so I guess I
would have to say that maybe if I have any legacy, I'd like to think maybe
it's that, mm hmm.
What sort of advice do you give to young people today that are trying to
decide what they want to do with their lives, cheers in music. You mean?
Oh my You know, I don't know whether it's passed me by or not. Uh, to
whether I'm capable of doing that. I am, I can tell you what I tell always
told people in music whose parents said, don't do that. You can't make a
living. You know, in all of that.
If a youngster has an ability and a talent,
I think they ought to go for it and then let the chips fall where they may.
You know, If a violinist comes in here and there a fine player and, but
people are saying, you can't make a living for every orchestra opening.
There's 600 people that try for it, you know, or whatever I'm saying. So
what if you achieve to the very highest level, the satisfaction of being
the best you can be there, Okay. Maybe you won't make a living at that.
Maybe you will have to end up doing something else, but you'll have an
education, you know, and you can, you can at least pursue your dream. And
we're we're music musicians are dreamers, kind of, you know, but that's
part of what makes us creative, you know, and, and sometimes we're not
realistic, but that's okay. But I always encourage, and that's why we set
up that screening system, you know? So the people didn't waste their time
dreaming of pursuing a dream. They couldn't even didn't even have a remote
chance. Uh, so I would tell whether it's an engineer or whoever else go
for it, you know, go for it and then see what happens. Because you never
know. Now in our, for the kids, we turn out and teaching. My Lord, they
can get jobs just galore. I mean, everybody's crying for music teachers,
you know, now, I mean, it's so sparse. And so there isn't any doubt about
that. If they if they wanna get a either a credential along with the
performance degree or, and there's a great job market in, uh, in music
therapy, we have a wonderful music therapy program over there that is
totally respected throughout the whole health system, you know, in the
phoenix valley and, and nationally, or, or jazz or whatever, that they
ought to go for it. And, and I've had very few ever come back to me and
say sorry, I did that. You know, maybe they ended up doing something else
or doing music good nights were on the side or whatever. You know, I want
to, I want to tell you one quick little story. Uh, and thatis