and the first thing I'd like to do, we need to do is to identify the tape
that today is monday january the ninth, 2006. And um my name is pam
Stevenson and I'll be doing the interview and Manny Garcia is our
photographer and we're doing this for a living history video project for a
few retirees association. And we are here at the visitor information
center at A. S. U. Rural and Apache and I'd like to have you introduce
yourself. Why don't you give us your full name? I'm Rudy turk to you.
Arcade.
No simple name. Um tell me when you were born and where you were born. Oh
many, many years ago, June
24th, 1927 feast of ST john the baptist,
sheboygan Wisconsin.
Tell me a little bit about your growing oh that gets very complicated
because
my father was in and out of jail a great deal. He was a bootlegger. I
lived most of my early childhood with my grandparents or devout Catholics
and I was brought up to be a saint with my ambition and there's
and I think that the experience of growing up in a very religious
background let me great the great part into art because I love the music,
the lights, the candles, the statues, stained glass windows being an altar
boy the whole whole bit. So my first years were basically very religious
years when I went to high school, I went to live with my parents who at
that time ran a nightclub, a bar and restaurant and I worked in both with
my high school years.
Oh yes, yes, definitely. Um And it was a little bit more high class, you
know, at that time and after high school I went into the Navy in a short
period of life in the Navy. But fortunately most of it was spent in
Chicago and I spent most of my free time at the Chicago art institute,
studying the art uh never thinking of making a career of it, but really
loving it very much. And then amazingly at the same time I was doing that
, a girl from Kentucky was visiting and studying at the art institute. We
never met, until you know that 15 years later when she became my wife
wanda wanda.
No, we didn't,
we met in graduate school and had a very short romance, A six week romance
and marriage. So what the town where you were growing up, was it a small
town 39,000
on lake Michigan said he have chairs, cheese, churches and Children. My
grandfather was a cabinet maker and it was a small town german town, One
of the few places in the United States where the German bund marched in
four July parade. Did you grow up speaking german, a little bit of german
as a matter of fact, it's very interesting. My grandparents and my father
were illiterate and about seven languages. A little bit of each and not
formal languages and I sort of picked up a little bit of that. I can say
that I'm basically illiterate in seven language too. Mhm. When you were a
boy going to school, were you a good student? I was an exceptional student.
Uh, the catholic school, I was at the top of the class. Always. Mm hmm.
Especially in religious studies, history also. And then I spent two years
in the country school. There were only 12 of us in school. And those of us
that were in advanced grades helped teach the Children in the lower grades
and really was probably the best educational experience I ever had. Among
other things, I had a chance to read the encyclopedia Britannica.
Well sometimes you would be at the school for 2, 3 weeks because you'll be
snowed in. And so did a lot of reading a lot of storytelling. Uh, that's a
great experience. Did you have any career goals other than to be a saint?
Uh, not really until I was in the Navy and he was still my, my goal. I was
going to be a scene. I had a painting of Saint Aloysius on my wall and he
had a cross in one hand and a skull on the other and I used to practice
that. You know.
Uh, and uh, when I got through the Navy for a very short period of time, I
wanted to be a doctor and then when I went to the University of Wisconsin
and took the biology classes, I fainted every time there was blood. So
shortly after that through the influence of a wonderful teacher, historian
by the name of gains post. I decided I wanted to go into the field of
history. It's surprisingly all my degrees are in history, political,
history. For the most part, people expect it to be an art, but no, my
degrees are in history actually. I was a balkan specialist who has never
given a single lecture on the Balkans. What did you think you would do
with that as a career? Well, number one, surprisingly, I thought it would
be a spy. No, I'm serious. I really thought so. Uh, this was the time of
the Cold War. Um many acquaintances of ours were involved with. Okay,
getting Tito recognized by the United States government louis. Adams who
was a great uh Slovene writer living in America, wrote about adam and he
was a good friend of ours, Good friend. A lot of the slavs. And for a
period of time, the slobs in the United States were either broking or pro
Tito. Uh My family was split on that of course, but I went to indiana
University to study under the spy master of the Balkans. And only
coincidentally I went into the field of art also see at the school it was
necessary to have a major field history and mine was balkan history And
then have three minors and outside of the department and it was very easy
when I found out they had folklore. I took folklore because I had done
folklore at the University of Tennessee a couple of years before that. So
folklore was good. American financial history appealed to me for some
reason or other. I can't fathom it now, but I couldn't think of a third ah
field of study. And finally I said to the chairman of the department,
what's that building across the street? And he said that's the art
building. And I said well how about my neighboring and art? He said fine.
So I minored in art. Um The first semester in my first art class history
class Came to the six weeks test And I finished it in about 15 minutes. It
was an identification test was very simple and everybody else was writing
like mad. I went over my test, there was no way to correct it. So I
finally left and I thought oh I really goofed on this one and all the
other kids were writing. Well two weeks later the head of the department
came in and said, Dirk Dirk Who's Dirk? I raised my hand timidly and he
said, you're the best student I've had in years, why don't I know you? And
I said well sir, I know here he says, well I'm supposed to know all the
new graduate students. I said well I'm no but I'm in history department.
So what you're doing over there? I said I've studied history. He said, how
would you like to be my assistant? And I said, well that would be
wonderful sir. But I'm in the history department. He said, How much they
pay their nice at $700. He said, we'll give you 1000 settled, you're my
assistant. And I said, I'm still a history major. He says that's fine. So
I became the assistant of Henry Hope, who was one of the outstanding
scholars in art history in the world. He also happened to be the husband
of the eli lilly eris and had the finest home in town, huge collection of
magnificent art, which I took care of them when they were out of town. So
I used to go to bed occasionally in a room full of paul clays or eat lunch
in the dining room covered with rock paintings. It was wonderful. And and
he was also an editor of Unesco Publications. So I got to meet the people
in new york and unesco met nelson Rockefeller. I had a wonderful time and
then I also assisted famous artists that came to the school. David smith,
who was one of America's leading sculptors, was one of the people I
assisted. So I had a wonderful time with my minor field. Um but I went off
to europe on a Fulbright. I had a wonderful time, took a art topic for my
doctorate and had a wonderful time, but then applied for jobs in the
United States as a balkan historian. It was still in my field and I got
rejected time and time again. Then one day I received a letter from the
University of Montana. Dear Mr turk. The job for which you have applied
has been filled. However, we have four positions on the campus that you
might be interested in. Would you be interested in teaching art history,
starting a gallery, starting art museum lecturing in humanities. I wrote
back, I'd be interested in all of them. Yeah, and I got the job and I did
all of them. Mhm. Uh, that was a turning point in my career and this was
the University of Montana in Missoula, Montana,
nope, one of my presidents by the way was dr new Bern who wound up being
president here. Yeah, so I got to know a lot of people that a lot of
Montana's wound up in Tempe Arizona, strangely enough could be,
I was in Montana three years, 3 full years. And finally one day I received
three letters in the mail. Now this sounds absolutely false, but it's true.
I guarantee it. First letter was from the director of a gallery and Art
center in California saying I'm retiring, I know you're interested in art
and you, you have borrowed shows from us. Would you be interested in my
job, number two letter, Dear Rudy from a pal uh, there's a job open in
Richmond California? Just up your alley. Why don't you apply for it? A
letter from Pete Focus when America's leading uh potters who I also knew
and said, you know, I would get her out of those Montana winters come and
get a job at Richmond Arts Center. So I applied and got the job and then I
was hooked on art for the rest of my life. And the Richmond Art Center was
a big complex. Number one galleries, Number two classrooms, full
classrooms from Kindergarten on through college level. And you got college
credit at the University of California, Berkeley Symphony Orchestra,
Junior Symphony Orchestra, a ballet company and all the playgrounds in the
town after three o'clock in the afternoon. It was all mine, simple little
job.
I was in Richmond five years and I finally just cracked up, it was too
much. And from there I went to san Diego and became assistant director and
then very, very quickly acting director of the Fine Arts Gallery of San
Diego. Now known as the san Diego Museum of Art. I was there for two years
but I really didn't like it that much. I missed teaching, which I had
loved in Montana. I missed a lot of Modern Art Museum was primarily
Historical art and I applied for a job at the University of Arizona Tucson
and I was hired. I was hired on a Saturday morning at about 9:00 and about
10:30 I was fired it so happened that the director who had quit had
decided to come back unbeknownst to me, they sent my records to a S. U.
And one day I received a call from Henry brian's board, Dean of the
College of Fine Arts. And here's you. I said, what's that? What's that? He
repeated Henry brian's Medina College of Fine Arts says we'd like to have
you become our director? I said, what are you talking about? I don't know
anything about you. He said we know all about you. I said, okay, now
what's this? He said, we have a gallery, we want to make it into a museum
and we would like to have you as a structure. I said, well I have to think
about this. He's come and visit come and visit. So I came to visit and he
took me for a ride from the airport all the way To the university via all
of Scottsdale, Paradise Valley. So far. They didn't realize it at the time
, it was a quick sale, you know, uh 67. And we wandered around and and he
took me to lunch at Richard's house, Gail Richards and there was a new
Bern sitting there. The president who had served under for a while at
Montana. And it took me to see the president and I had met dr Durham when
he visited Montana years before I was his guests. Well, there was a
controversy at the school and then there was a vice president here at the
time. I can't think of his name who also had been President Montana. So I
thought my gosh they all know me and wanted me and I visited the art
collections in Matthew's center. Wasn't impressed with the facility ah and
spent the night there and then the next day dr binds mama took me to the
airport and he said we are offering you the job. And I said oh I don't
think so, I don't think so. He says young man you're going to miss an
opportunity if you don't take the job. We know all about you. What do you
mean? You know all about me? He says I happen to know that your father is
sort of a town character in Sheboygan. He was he was in prison for
bootlegging. I said this is going too far. He says I can't help it. He
said my father was principal of the Dutch Reform School in Sheboygan. So
he grew up in this wagon as I did. We had never met. Well a couple of
weeks later after he raised the I. N. T. For salary I took the job so
that's how I got here again. You can see everything comes sort of from
unexplained and unexpected directions. That was 1967.
And what was your first salary? Oh gee I think it was 11,011,000
And I had a total budget of 37,000
and for which I taught in the history in the art department. I taught in
the humanities department. I ran the gallery put on shows all over the
campus. I worked my butt off quite frankly,
I was associate professor of art and curator of the art collection
collection. Mhm. Rudy, who was just before you Hugh broadly. Few broadly.
Okay, that's what I was trying to think of her. Thank you. And he had
already left. Yeah, you broadly was my predecessor and then Mrs Gammage
was actually one of my predecessors
and dr Durham
had addressed the faculty earlier in the year and he talked about
establishing it issue the love of the west. And that's what he told me.
We're going to have the love of the west. Well, he was a little misguided.
One of the big potential donors never came through. But we have at that
time already one of the finest american historical collections. And we
built up on that.
What was your first impression of a issue at that time? Well, it was not
even an impression of the issue. It was of Arizona. I thought it was a big
gravel pit. That's what I really wasn't impressed. I had been here many
years before. I had been an altar boy for the Bishop of Milwaukee and he
had his some of the altar boys vacation in uh Chandler at the hotel and
Chandler. So, and I remember driving through Tempe only because of the
cement tents that lined the street, you know, but I wasn't impressed and I
told my wife it's awfully hot there. And uh it's like a big gravel pit,
but it'll be fine For one for 3 or four years. Fine. Well I stayed on for
25 years. Obviously we changed my mind. Something must have changed your
mind.
Where was your office located? And Matthews Center, I had an office in
Matthew's actually my first office in Matthew's Center was a men's
bathroom which had a slab desk over the toilet seat. And I sat behind it.
And then I had one gallery, one total gallery. Well from that time on, it
was a question of how much space can I grab every year. I managed to grab
some space, the law school and I fought for space on the second floor of
Matthew Center. And where was your 1st gallery? Well that was the front
gallery in Matthew's center.
Mhm. You mentioned the president, head of your department who got you to
come here. Mhm.
Oh yes. I taught art history, tough survey courses are taught american
history, taught renaissance history, I taught whatever nobody else wanted
to teach. Quite frankly.
I didn't really get along too well with the people in the art department.
Unfortunately, most of them thought of the gallery and then eventually the
museum is a place to show their work. And I always thought that was much
too limited concept. So you weren't really what you want.
I worked in the art department in the humanities department as well as
being separate. And of course both departments felt that they should have
control over the art gallery and that was one of the big fights of my life.
Keeping it independent. Also, even keeping it at the university because
there was a great movement to give the entire collection to the city of
phoenix and the phoenix art museum and I had to fight that off for years.
How large was the collection? It was about 300 pieces And now it's nearly
10,000 has grown a great deal.
Uh Oh I cannot think of the man who donated but the richest man in Arizona
who was very, very strong conservative and american lover. I'm not putting
him down. He really loved America and he wanted that little school in
Tempe would have a work of american art in every classroom. That was his
goal. And he started giving art to bind, going to new york buying. And
unfortunately american art was very inexpensive at that time. But still it
was a tremendous contribution and he gave these things and eventually the
collection grew so large it was impossible to put it in rooms all around
the campus. Somebody had to take care of it. So they transferred it all to
Matthew's center
Oliver James was the name of the collector. I'm sorry now I remember
it was the room for it. Oh yes. I found room. You could always find room
for another piece. Were you able to display? Yeah. No I was able to
display as some people who were there at the time. I remember I used the
hallways, I used the stairwells. I used every space. I even hung things in
the bathrooms. Uh huh. My feeling is if you have the material you should
show it. Unfortunately at this stage we're in now that's absolutely
impossible. There's too much. But this is a problem that museums across
the world face, they have more art than and other precious materials than
they can possibly house at any one time. So you have to rotate things. And
I was very good at rotating things too.
So I pat myself on the shoulder,
Tell me a little bit about how your career progressed here. Mhm. The
department didn't like, Well they didn't like me. No, they really didn't
because I wasn't doing favors for them. I finally made a rule either we
would have a one faculty show a year or a show of one faculty member year.
That's the way we handled it. Um And then my approach to art was more
lighthearted than a lot of them approved of. Although at that time the art
department has some real weird people and so I was just one of many harry
would harry would brilliant man. But really very very strange man. You
know I for instance I think of he would come in office and he would
teleport, he would say I teleported myself to Israel today? Or I
teleported myself to the moon yesterday and I can remember one time he
came into my office and it's test time and he said I'm all done with tests
and I said, what kind of test do you give your kids? He says I teleported
them all up to the moon and then when they came back they all had to draw
pictures of what they saw up there. Mm hmm. You know, but he stimulated
students like mad. He probably was in that respect. He was probably one of
the great professors. That is you.
Oh yes, yes, Cool. Mhm. Any other people? Well the thing is what was bob's
name and humanities? Oh gee, this is terrible. Um through the humanities
department, I took one of the first outside the state trips for students
and I remember an eight week trip of europe, which was really great fun.
Although my co director was drunk most of the time these things do happen.
The problem. Mhm. Who was the head of the humanities department and
really me that department goal, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't have been for
him, there wouldn't be humanities department today or religious studies
department. He really was the backbone of that for many years. But again,
a character and I say that with love because we wrote a textbook together
, They went into nine editions. So we worked at least 14 years on that one
textbook which put our Children through college, what's the name? God,
what is the name of the textbook? Ah
I'm sorry. Isn't that strange? I can't pull it up. Yes, I'll pull it up
later. Sounds like an interesting story.
Yes. nine editions. And I cannot think the title nothing to do with artist.
It had a lot of pride in it. Well, it was very interesting textbook
because at that time in humanity's across the nation, you wanted to take a
course, You had to buy a play, you had to buy a book of philosophy, you
had to buy a book of art. You had to buy a whole mess of books. Well Bob
and I and one other gentlemen put all these factors, all these items in a
single volume or two volumes as it was. So are books had plays, it had
music scores, it had literature, it had history, it had photographs and
eventually it even had a film and tape
and it was very successful. It was adapted by many of the states for high
school and junior colleges. Search for personal freedom. That's the name
of the book. Search for Personal freedom. Sounds like a harder humanities
particularly. Oh yes. Oh yes. What are we looking for in our life? You
know, it's interesting,
it's still in print. It's still in print, but I don't think they sell many
copies. I think I get a small check every july.
So how did tell me a little more about how your career progressed here?
Well if progress room by room as they took over Matthew's center, uh One
of the first rooms I took over was a small room which I turned into a
latin american gallery and a. S. U. Is the first university in the entire
United States to have a latin american gallery. It was very appropriate. I
thought living next to Mexico the whole bit but it was very very unusual.
Number two
I don't know and intuition and nobody stopped me, you know, although I
remember the first day of the dead altar I put together in the gallery
caused a tremendous commotion. President vice Presidents, the deeds
everybody consulted on it, can we do this? This is separation of church
and state and the whole thing. But we kept it. Where did you get the latin
american art? Um Well it was very interesting. I had money to collect art
. I was not allowed to raise money at that time because the president said
the day will come when there will be money. But in the meantime we don't
want to irritate the phoenix art museum people, however many people were
very dissatisfied with the phoenix art museum and the heard museum and
they came to me And said, wouldn't you like to have this or that or many
times they come and say can you get anything for $100 And that was the
beginnings of the ceramic collection. People would come with small money,
ceramics were still very inexpensive and we bought ceramics and got grants
and ceramics And it was the seed for now, which is now one of the five top
ceramic collections in the entire country. I'm glad to be the father of
that. What made you get interested in collecting? Well, when I had been in
Montana, I worked with Rudy Audio on Pete Focus or two of the great
ceramic teachers and producers in America and knew their work. I like
ceramics. And when I was in Richmond California, we always had huge
ceramic exhibitions When I came here. Well what could you buy for $100?
You couldn't buy a painting for $100, prints were expensive even at that
time, although I did get a lot of prints, but ceramics were available. I
really had never had any attention of building this huge ceramic
collection that we have today. Matter of fact, I thought I would do
fabrics. I was very, very transparent fabrics but fabrics didn't hook on.
People did not respond to it. But the ceramics did. People love to see
bulls. There were, it's a useful thing. Tactile thing and that's how
that's developed.
How did you decide which ceramics were art?
That's that's my field, my field of study, my field of work and when you
study you learn and make decisions and I think that I made some very good
decisions. How would you describe that process? Okay.
I don't know if you watch dog shows on tv. Have you ever watched dog shows
? Okay. They get a dog, they have a bulldog. And then let's say they have
a master, They don't judge them by the same qualities. Each piece is
judged on its own terms and you do the same thing in ceramics. What do I
see? What do I know? What was the artist trying to do now? You can know if
the artist is trying to be smooth, trying to be rumbled, trying to be
rough whatever. How well does the artist do what he's trying to do? That's
the decision then after that you say. But what does this mean to me? But
it's a question, how well does the artist do what he's trying to do? And
that's the rule you can use and judging all art say I am.
In addition to the ceramics, we built a very large print collection at the
issue. And again, it's one of the finest university print collections in
the country, purely by accident. I had nothing to do with the early stages.
We received collections of whistlers, jurors,
Whistler's jurors Rembrandts
and some other works from local collectors who wanted to give their
collections to the phoenix art museum and fortunately at that particular
time, the director of the phoenix art museum who was a charming man, very
wonderful social man. Didn't know anything about Prince, he thought they
were just reproductions and he didn't take them. So they came out to A S.
U. And that was the foundation for the S. U. Print collection which grew
madly. I contributed very heavily myself. I had a large print collection I
acquired when I was a student in paris. I gave that to s you um The uh and
other people who came with prints, prints are not as popular with the
public as ceramics or paintings. But we do have a very fine print
collection in his.
What's your collection? That sounds like. Outgrew with the Mathews Center.
Oh yes it was outgrowing. Matthews center yes and Matthews center had all
kinds of problems. We had leaks that couldn't be fixed. As a matter of
fact. I remember one of the galleries, we had a leak that would not go
away. So I built a wall around the leak and had a little bucket there and
you could open the door. There was the bucket and the water would come
down into it.
The university wasn't too anxious to spend much money on the art
collection after dr New Bern left. It was really a rough hall as a matter
of fact.
Well telling tales out of school. One of the Deans who will be nameless
forgot to put in my budget one year. Absolutely forgot it completely. You
can see what low esteem I was held. I was working my butt off. But they
forgot about my budget. Uh, the last Dean that I worked for really did not
want the new museum to, to be, He wanted it to be a dance facility
completely. So, I mean, it was always a struggle. Mm hmm.
I know We interviewed Russell nelson this morning and he mentioned that he
recalls going over when it rained and seeing you running around trying to
protect. Well, he was very supportive the museum. He he and dr during were
the two people that were very supportive. As a matter of fact, rumor has
it that when the Dean was willing to dismiss the art museum from the new
facility, dr nelson said, oh, we mustn't disappoint Rudy again. I don't
know if that's true. But it sounds like us. It was a very, very nice man.
Mm hmm. Turning Bulls himself.
Um,
tell me about how the art, the new art museum came about. Well, I had been
promised a new building the day that I came. That didn't happen obviously.
And it was a question of raising money. Mm hmm. But there were other
things that were considered more important at the time. Finally, Dean
Heller, I got a grant For $75,000 to bring in a team of architects who
would set up a panel to study possibilities of a new museum and even come
up with a contest too three ah architects here to design a building And
that contest that they designed, there was five finalists.
People were very interested And when he started coming in at that time,
for instance, one of my Dawson's astrid thomas Ran the, get started and
ran the gallery store and as soon as she found out we were going to have a
museum, a real museum. She gave $1 million dollars so we could have the
gallery store ah Jax Herberger keeping with about $45,000 money started
coming in.
No, as one of the only facilities in the university that was over 90% paid
for by private funds.
Were you involved in the competition of the No. We were completely out of
it and we sat and watched in agony because we saw some of the plans and
said, oh my God, there was one plan that the entire building had a glass
roof. Oh God, that gets accepted would be horrible. Another plan had the
museum and five little buildings scattered over plaza. So you would have
to carry out from one building to another in Arizona's hot weather just
great. You know. So it was a horrible experience until the final award was
made. And we were very pleased with the facility, strangely enough. Even
today, I can't fathom a lot of people did not like the building and still
don't like the building. I will say this. It's an unusual building. It's
one of the few buildings of the campus that has a claw, has a little
spirit to it. Most of the buildings are window, window, window, window,
window or window, window and door, window, window, window, here's an
interesting building. Yeah. And I am very pleased with it.
Found two. It's very different building inside than outside
inside And has wonderful vistas that these large staircases going up three
floors. And sometimes when I got a little uh pixelated I would run up and
down the stairs and run up imagine that I was fleeing a mob of Russian
peasants and you know or I'd march up the steps, we're going to my
coronation. It's a wonderful play building. Use your imagination.
We'll talk a little bit about the controversy over that building though
when it was being constructed. I remember there was oh yes. Some people
said it looked like a jail. Actually one of the problems with the public
on the building is they really don't take the time to look at it. If you
look at the front of the building it's low, it hits the ground, it's like
an Egyptian mustafa, you know and the wonderful pathway of those palm
trees or cacti going to the building. Wonderful pattern. Then you hit the
side and it rolls and you get a view of the
the auditorium. Gammage auditorium, the music building just rolls along.
Then in the back it goes up high, jumps way high becomes a sort of modern
skyscraper and then the other side, the last side is very functional. Big
windows, big doorways, It's a fascinating building, but you really have to
take the time to experience and walk around and walk in and then walk into
it too, which is fascinating. Ah you know, most buildings, windows, doors
, corridors, long corridors.
I was some of the state buildings recently and in phoenix, I thought, oh
my gosh, will this corridor ever end? And finally it stopped but it jutted
into another corridor, awfully boring or hotel rooms in the hall corridor
, door, door, door, door, door. But here's a building that is rather
exciting to be in. A lot of people are afraid to be excited.
A lot of people were joking about when we're going to paint it.
Unfortunately did a lousy plaster job on it. It needs to be re plastered.
Yeah,
Do you think about your career here on campus? What are the things that
stand out to you?
Well, ah actually people are expecting to see getting the new building.
But no, I really enjoyed the teaching aspect of it. Mm hmm.
They've loved teaching the survey course and I engaged the students in my
teaching. I didn't just lecture. I really made them respond in the class
and I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the graduate students to end the small
seminars, enjoyed that immensely.
Um I enjoyed working with the doses volunteer ladies and I will say this
and this is very, very sincere if it would have been for the docents for
these ladies have volunteered hours upon hours of their time. Sometimes
money, there wouldn't be a museum. They kept the thing going. I had a
small staff needed people to help to work and they worked, I was in an
automobile accident was all smashed up. I couldn't drive every day. A old
lady would pick me up and between the lady and my wife, they had pushed me
into a car and it would be painful. But then I get to the university and
the student helper would put me in a wheelchair and then all day the lady
pushed me around. I mean it's that kind of thing. I loved my doses and I
know that they love me too. Yeah. Uh that that was a wonderful achievement.
When I think of achievements at the university, I think of people more
than of the building. I enjoyed the building. Of course, I enjoyed it. I
enjoyed the morning mail. If you're a director of a museum or a gallery,
you get a tremendous amount of meal. You get uh catalogs from museums and
galleries all over the world and all and invitations to wonderful events.
That's fun. But it's the people that I really enjoyed and here's you
and I'll make another comment was very interesting. I find interesting
every month. I would pick a day and I had my student helpers question
everyone who came up into the museum. What is your personal field b
student faculty member, staff member or somebody just coming in a wife
whatever. Let's see what's your field. But to do study in college and so
forth. And there were always two departments that were one and two
sometimes the department A was one sometimes was too but it was the same
two departments for 25 years. Guess what? Those departments were
Physics and Chemistry. Most of my adolescence came from the Physics and
Chemistry. Their husbands were in those departments. Most of the students
that came You think that the art department be number 1? Physics and
Chemistry?
Well I I think it is that here are people who are devoted in the sciences
but when they want to relax, they want to go into the humanity. Mhm. And
their interest in their speculative.
I always appreciate. So I love the scientist.
Right? You mentioned a little bit about some of president.
Okay,
well Homer was my absolute favorite. Homer. Durham. He was a lovely,
lovely man. And he was there when he had a bad day when things were going
wrong. He come up to the museum and he walked back and forth and look at
things in the gallery and he would sing one day. I didn't realize it was
home and I thought it was Jack Breckinridge and I yelled out, hey quit
your squawking in there and then whole McDermott period. It was very
apologetic.
Of course I felt about that big uh he and his wife would be calling me and
I had to justify art. She didn't like modern art and I have to justify but
she almost made me swear, don't tell homer that I called you. Uh They were
very very involved. Then there were the swatters and there was a different
thing, completely swatter could have cared less about the museum. He
thought it was fun, that was it. And I had to change I had to hang
paintings in the border regions room every month, a different change. And
he didn't always like my changes. Uh But a funny story on the president's
wife, Wilma Suara came up to the gallery and asked for things to decorate
the President's home. This was customary at that time. Bad practice. But
it was customary. And she looked through the things
she said I'll talk to my husband and he'll call you and dr shuala called
and said she wants the picture of the pace stack that pink haystack. And I
said there is no such thing as a pink case stack in the entire collection.
Well ma I could hear him say there is no pink haystack and she gets on the
phone. Of course it's a pink haystack. You said I could have anything I
want and now you're back you know and I said I'm sorry there's no Pink
Haystack in the collection. Okay about half an hour Wilma comes out there.
She's all set to fight. He's following laughing and she says, there it is.
And he says, oh, for crying out loud, Wilma put on your glasses. It was a
big pink nude.
I always loved Wilma for that. And then I loved the farewell when they
gave her this huge, huge lei of flowers and she said she felt like a
racehorse. She
was a fun lady. Uh mrs New Bern, of course I knew up in Montana. So it was
a long friendship there. And then came the nelsons. Uh and bonita of
course became a Dawson worked in the store museum, always short of
interest. And uh dr nelson with his woodwork always had an attachment and
supported me when my Dean wasn't supporting me. So yeah, they were very
different people. All very interesting.
What about this turned wood collection? Oh, but Jacobson, local attorney
and Art aficionado, started a wooden bowl collection. Um by accident he
borrowed, he bought three or 4 pieces at the hand of Spirit Gallery in
Scottsdale and put them on display in his home. And at that time, about
that time a
there was a conference of museum directors from all over the United States
and of course he was one of the people to entertain them and he expected
them to go gaga about his paintings and the sculpture. But they went gaga
about the balls. So he started collecting bowls and got me involved, you
know who's doing bowls. But he didn't call to me, he didn't call them
bowls of his bowels reconnected bowels. Um Finally he built a collection
that was the best in the United States. Absolutely the best. And he
published a little book on that. Uh And I was authorized to loan the
collection to three or four galleries outside and when it hit new york the
new york critics just went wild about it. Oh they loved it. And his bold
collection is now not the largest any longer but it is the nucleus for the
collections of major collectors ever since. And eventually he had promised
the bull collection to me but he was very coy. Would you like four or 5?
Would you like 10? Would you like the whole collection? Maybe you wouldn't
like the whole thing? Well you wouldn't appreciate my collection anyway.
Oh he he was very much a Prima donna. But we finally, with mrs Garrett's
help we find the collection. And and I gather in his will, he gave some
money to help continue the collection.
Is that one of your proudest things? No, I think the of the of the
collections it would have to be the ceramic collection. You know, I think
that was the biggest achievement and I do love the ceramics and still
there today, Given my own ceramics mostly to the airport and to ah museums
in Wisconsin primarily because my pieces were not as good as those at A. S.
U. Had to begin with. But I had a nice collection I've given most of it
away. I I think that was quite an achievement and it probably was the
achievement which holds best for the present time. The the ceramic
collection is known all over the world? S use collection is known all over
the world. Yeah. And people are coming to see it now. For example we
received after I retired we received A collection of 300 pieces from a
person who was here when these uh and seek a which is the national
Conference for ceramic arts met here. They came to issues. They saw our
collection were so impressed that they gave their collection and
collections build other collections. Or the lady who came, I gave a tour
of the collections to her and we went through and then I found out as she
was leaving that she was a powder too. And I took her hand and said oh you
have such small hands to do such big pots because she showed me a picture
of her pots about six months later have a telephone call. You don't
remember me but I'm the lady with the little hands. And I'd like to give
you our teapot collection so that the collection grows and it's still
growing today beyond any hope that I ever had for it. I mean it's really
wonderful what's happening there. Is it unusual for a university to have
such an extensive art? No, no, uh in America, the universities have since
, let's go back a minute since World War Two, there has been an average of
two museums built a week in the United States, particularly every
university in the country has a museum of some kind ah buying and giving
art is one of the safest thing for millionaires to do. I mean, you know,
if you have big orgies and everything you held against you, if you spend
your money on big parties. Oh, that doesn't go. But you can buy art and
give it to the university or the ST well, everybody praises you for it.
And do remember that many of the museums in the country are funded by
wealthy people. Um So, but they all take on their own character. Every
museum has its own direction. And our directions are primarily ceramics,
printing, latin, american art and still american art. But right now that's
a little bit on the low side
to remember. We're located in a strange place, phoenix. Uh metropolitan
area has many millionaires. But still, most of the millionaires have their
initial home back in Wisconsin or Illinois. And that's where they give, So
you have to develop collectors too. And we're doing that, but it's a slow
process.
Did you ever think when you came to Arizona, you said you really didn't
think you'd stay this long. What has kept Well, number one, my wife loves
Arizona. She really does. She wouldn't live any place else. So if I wanted
to leave, I would have to leave by myself. I, I did love Montana and I do
what I do love living on the ocean. So those are factors. But I, and there
were many times when I was ready to leave issue when it was often a hard
grind. Uh, I had a lot of energy in those days. I'm absolutely amazed. It
takes me three hours to get up and get about in the morning. And I think
just years ago, I had prepared four or five lectures. I'd give lectures. I
go out in the community. I gave over 3000 lectures in the community while
I was here without getting paid for it too. You know. Ah, the, but I
really enjoyed the experience of being here. I don't think I would enjoy
it today. I liked the school when it was small. When I got, when I knew
most of the people that not only the students, but the faculty and staff.
Uh, now, you know, I make a telephone call the university and I have this
machine, press one, press two, press three. It's dehumanized, but it was a
very humanistic place when I was here,
still go and visit the museum above once every six weeks. So I see what
shows on. There's a real problem. Visiting director visiting his old
haunts if he sees it. And I'll say I'll use the word I, if I see something
I like it's new. I say why in the hell didn't I do it? If I see something
that I didn't do or that that that I wouldn't do that they're doing. I
said I wouldn't do that. Well they're nuts. So you never could be happy.
It's best to stay away really. It is for everybody's sake.
Are there some things that you wanted to do while you were here that you
weren't able to do? Oh yes yes. I wanted to initiate a larger travel
program which is started it now there's this very commonplace at the
university but in my day we never could get that started. I wanted to
bring famous artists here to teach uh either in the museum or in the arts
school. It didn't happen. Those. I still think there would be a good idea
of visiting artists would be very very fine. I would also like to see
developed at A. S. U. And I there is a grant out there ah Which could make
this possible. I would like to see develop a school of criticism. Students
learning how to do literary art criticism. I think this would be a
tremendous achievement. And there's no no place that really does that in a
concise developed way that I would like to see happen.
I would also like to see the urinal and the S. U. Art museum donated by
somebody and say ah
fountain Just the other day. Art critics of America said the most
significant artwork produced in the 20th century for significant. Not the
best significant was the urinal that Marcel Duchamp took out and put the
name Fountain Inn and displayed this whole data approach to art. And I
wish that somebody would do the same toilet at a S. U. Art museum. It
sounds crazy but I think that would be kind of fun.
I I might, the thing is I don't know if the present people would
appreciate the idea.
What about your own artwork? Oh yes I worked very hard at it at the moment.
I'm having a one man show at the new Mrs Museum of Contemporary Arts
which is an unusual show. It's not a sales show half the show, my
paintings and the other half of the show, things that I have collected
over the years. So that's very nice. I'm also in the show in Scottsdale
featuring the works of jules, Heller jewels, Heller and his friends and
I'm one of the friends I'm active when I am. Well I haven't been well much
of this year but when I am well I try to put in about 40 to 50 hours a
week painting and I love it very, very much yeah. Is that something that
you developed over the years? You know I painted a lot even before I
retired. Um I didn't have time. And what would happen if I had a saturday
free. I would come home on friday night, go to shoot my little studio
which is a box and paint all through saturday night, all friday night, all
day saturday into sunday. My paintings well For a while my studio was four
x 4 and then four x 4 I painted and wrote 17 books, okay. And did my
lectures and it was four x 4. I painted like this, you know, arm boom,
boom boom. And then my next studio was actually a garage in my next home
where I had all the room in the world, but I couldn't get my arm out to
paint. You know, it was very, very difficult. So now I can get my arm out
. I think I improve every month. I enjoy it and I am one of the few people
and the art field that can say that all my expenses are taken care of by
my sales. I sell so enough. I couldn't make a living at it, but I, it
doesn't cost the family anything for me to exercise my peculiarities.
How would you describe your art passionate? A forceful direct? Ah often
amusing
it. Always painting primarily. Yes, I will do other things. I recently
took some classes in silk screen and have been working in silk screen. I
like to keep my options open, but I really like painting very much. No
ceramics. No, no, I've tried ceramics. I'm horrible in ceramics.
Absolutely horrible. I'm kindergarten and my my six year old granddaughter
is 10 times better than I am here. I am one of ceramic
acknowledge critics. Okay, collectors, but no, I just don't have the feel
for it. I don't have the balance for it. I'm off balance. That's true.
Where my paintings that's fine to be off balance. But in ceramics you have
to be in the balance and I can't I can't achieve it. Maybe it's just as
well. Uh I'm in my doctor's office waiting for my appointment. The nurse
announces that the doctor was called away on an emergency and we would
make new appointments and she came to me and said, mr turk and the man
next to me says, are you the Rudy turk and trying to be modest. IsIS, well
I'm Rudy turk and he says you're the Rudy turk that collects pots. I said
yes, He said, well since we can't have our meeting, why don't you come to
my house and see my parts and I said, well, not now. He says yes right now.
He says I have some wonderful roman parts. I said, well okay, we went
over to his house, this man was named ever saw jim every cell and we went
in the living room and he had some bad roman pots. They weren't anything
and they had been soldier owned by an Israeli leader and he got taken and
I wasn't impressed. He said you don't like my pops. I said no, I really
don't. He said well come let's have a drink. And he says you and I can't
have drinks. You both have prostate problems. We can't drink. He says
we'll have juice. In other words I was annoying him. We went into the
study or library and he had shelves built in each shelf is a little box
and each box was a Maria pot Maria was the outside is was the outstanding
indian powder in America ever? Okay. There are all these wonderful
wonderful pots. One after another. I said Maria do you know Maria? I said
yes I know Maria. He says really? You haven't Maria tell your mortgage? I
said yes when I was a little boy went to the Chicago world's fair and we
went to one state pavilion after another. And we got to the new mexican
pavilion and there was an old lady making pots on her lap. And when we're
ready to leave I cried, I made a big fuss. And the old lady says let me
keep them until you're ready to go. And I sat on this lady's lap and we
made pots and that's how I met Maria. Oh you really like Maria says would
you like these pots? He says I would love to have these parts. He says
that's u the university. I said yes. He says you come tomorrow you can
have them. I said I can't come tomorrow, I have two classes tomorrow. Okay
you don't want the parts you don't want them. I said I'll be there. So I
canceled two classes and we picked up the parts. Uh huh. A week later I'm
at my doctor's office. The doctor said I'm sorry we couldn't meet last
week. And I said well that happens. I said but I met Mr ever so and he
gave us his pottery collection. 35 Maria's super. Did he sign anything?
Did he sign anything? I said yes he signed something. He says that's good
because he died this weekend.
See sometimes the luck of the irish is with you case occasionally
survivors.
And he found a home. A good home.
Yes there at the new ceramic center. Make a trip over there. It's a
wonderful wonderful collection. And eventually there's going to be a giant
new art building on that corner at Mill and University. And uh the ceramic
is going to have a home there and the print collection and the gallery
store will be in the new facility
and not industry. No it's not a very impressive home for this collection
right now. No.
Well well that's a wonderful story. Do you have any other great stories
that you haven't told us? Well I probably have but I can't pull it out
just like that.
Well I'll tell you one. I had a telephone call from the president's office
with and I think Troy has said we have four people want to have lunch and
they want to, we're going to have lunch in your renaissance gallery and he
said, so you can get it ready, we're sending people over to prepare the
food and everything and he says you have lunch with him and entertain them.
And so I had lunch with four Nobel prize winners. That was fun, I can't
remember. They were all scientists, so that was quite fun.
Yeah. Mhm
I told you already. Mhm Yeah, well you've certainly seen a lot of change
at the university and in Arizona. Oh yes, it was inevitable. I think
though every generation will say, well the changes are good, but I
preferred in my day,
did you ever think Arizona would become the size and the growth that
you're seeing here? No, not really, no. I'm absolutely amazed what's
happening and what is still happening. I see all these buildings going up
on campus. I don't think I would recognize the east end of the campus
right now. They're going to have to issue new maps and give tours to old
faculty members and staff members
and then, you know, to extend the university into phoenix and into
Scottsdale. As a matter of fact, the university is extending into
Scottsdale where I had a studio for five years before they tore it down
for the university. Okay.
Yeah, I had a studio at Los Arcos.
Do you have any disappointment?
I think so. Most people do have disappointments. I don't know, there's
nothing that aggravates me. Ah
No, as I say I really wanted um more professional people brought in in the
arts and I think that might come
as it is. I think arts is still a little priority on the campus. The labs
are much more important but eventually they'll see the light. Okay,
that's right, that's right.
Do you have any that were your students that have since done well in? Well
, it's very interesting that practically every ah our facilitator in the
state at this time has been or was was a student of mine, Shelly Cohen was
the art administrator, Linea Eller, the airport Larry Yanez the Tempe. Uh
I sort of, I taught a course and it was very interesting. I taught of
course in musicology and another one and history of museums and many of
the art students wanted an easy course. So they took my course and I
really worked into hell. But they learned about museums and many of them
never thought they would wind up working in the museum or gallery but half
and I get grateful letters all the time on this, which is kind of nice and
I get to see these people who are working and occasionally of Danielle or
I have shown in her facility at the airport and then recently this is very
interesting is this little sidelight. I received a telephone call and the
fellow said, my name is Gary Bradley. Do you remember me Gary Bradley and
I've had thousands of students and I said, I'm sorry, doesn't ring a bell.
Said I was one of your students at the University of Montana. And I said
, oh, I remember you, you were tall and you had a skinhead haircut and you
dated a girl who played the piano. He says that's right. And he said, well
you got me interested in art and I became a banker and a realtor and I've
done pretty well in my life. But my wife and I travel all over the world
and we collect art and we owe it all to you. And that felt really very,
very good. You know, it's very good to see that somebody who had, I never
thought of as being perspective by our collector was influenced by me.
That's a good feeling to become an artist that became a collector
collector. And then there are some people like Larry who was very casual
about it, but it's one of the best artists in the state can do everything
. A great variety of things. I have a few students who are painting and
selling in new york. Tom. Holland is considered one of the leading
painters in California. I, as I said earlier in our conversation what I
cherish most about my stay in Arizona is not building the new building,
but people have enjoyed working with people here and every place I've been.
Um it's fun, nice to know people used to be engaged with them and I'm
sure you have known a lot of very notable. Oh yes. Oh yes.
Um Music Arizona sometimes gets the reputation and people think of Arizona
southwest art as being a cowboy art and indian art. Well the thing is that
you know it's what people thought it for years and but still very popular
go to main street and scott still indian artists all over the place and I
don't care for indian paintings or sculpture quite frankly. But God their
pots are beautiful, they do beautiful beautiful pots.
And uh there are some nice indian pottery collections that I hope will
come to A. S. U. Eventually. Um I think it's very natural as a matter of
fact if I were a director of the phoenix art museum, I think my number one
exhibition hall would always be cowboy and indians uh you know that's what
people expect to see and in the art colony people have a tendency to
downgrade the western artists. It's unfair. A lot of it's not my dish itty
but some of them are very very good, extremely good. We have known uh some
outstanding ones. Sometimes they're a little bit off off center front
shoulder the indian artist, fantastic artists, one of the best ever seen.
Um And I'm pleased to say that we were friends and I wrote the first book
on him. Okay so the he achieved a tremendous breakthrough in indian arts.
One that was recognized across the country. So we have done a lot but yes
, our heritage is the cowboy and indian. That's alright. That's okay. It
doesn't bother me.
Right. one thing I always ask, yes, what advice do you give to young
people today that are trying to decide college here.
Okay. Number one, learn the basics. I think this is very important. I
always had people coming and saying you know what, I want to be a curator
or do I study, I said, do you know how to hammer? Do you know how to solve
? Do you know how to paint a wall? I thought of the basics, they don't
know and somebody has to do them. My first gallery in Montana. I was
everything. You know, he said you're you're a man of you know for all
seasons and all trades. Well it just meant that there was no one else to
do anything. You have to learn to do everything. # two ICBA Little Daring.
You know, you don't have to have everybody agree with you and please be a
little dairy if you believe in something, go and express it. I I did that
to a great extent. I wish I had done it even more. Mhm. You know, people
don't necessarily like new ideas. Tradition is wonderful. It's like the
Gothic cathedral, they always say it's the bible and stone. People who
were illiterate knew the bible, they knew the pictures or the statues on
the walls. That was tradition and that tradition lasts a long time because
people are comforted, comfortable with tradition. Well we have various
traditions right now. Impressionism is very big in this country. One time
impressionist paintings with yuck today. It's very big because people have
seen it. There's been shows all over people are used to it. Well we have
to recognize there are many traditions we should be willing to accept all
of them but also start our own. And when I say start our own, be a member
of that. Some years ago there was a painting that appeared on the market
in new york. It was a picture of steve canyon. Remember steve Canyon comic
strip, steve the hero, their airport, the pilot is there against the
backdrop, it's black and there's a a spy hole and he said, I looked into
the room, there was no one there that same month in Detroit. A painter
painted the same subject. They did not know each other and a lady in san
Francisco did a rug with the same motif. The ideas are in the air there
there for everybody and you think that your unique but no the ideas are in
the air and that's how new traditions get started. Be daring. So
fundamentals and then be daring.
That's good advice.
Is there anything that I didn't ask you about today. I can't think
that I should have asked you know, I think that will do for the thank you.
Thank you be there. It's very interesting.
We have something to add to our archives.
Yeah early in my second year at A. S. U. I was approached by one of the
producers at Katie to do a program ah 16 week program. And I thought this
is a wonderful opportunity and I love to ham it up and we decided we would
call the show the gallery and we would use things from the S. U. Art
collection. Unfortunately every time there was a show the paintings from
the collection had to be moved to a big warehouse building where they did
the photography. And then they arranged these in a sort of semi circle.
And then they put number one number two number three number four on the
floor. And I was supposed to talk about this one for 15 seconds and that
one for three minutes and so forth and so on. Well this was extremely
interesting. And I can remember the first show. Uh I went to the first
thing was a large metal sculpture ape like figure. And I had no trouble
with it. And then I went to this very large painting, the prize of the S.
U. Art collection. And I could not remember the name of the artist.
Absolutely could not. And I said this is a painting of american wildlife
by the great american naturalist. The man who every school child studies
when he wants to learn about american birds and flora and fauna. I just
went out and tried to read the Audubon and I could not remember Audubon
for the love of money. Oh God! Then more over. I did not realize that
there were certain words in the english language that I had mispronounced
over the years. And I got home and I found out that you know, uh Every
everything that I did was wrong. I came, I said before I left, Oh, this is
gonna be horrible. And my wife's since she saw me, she said it was
horrible. It really was horrible. But we went 16 weeks on this on this
program. In the midst of this 16 weeks, I was an automobile accident and
broke a whole mess of ribs and they had to put me in a sort of iron vest
and all of a sudden Rudy turk. The slim director appeared on the gallery
became huge. We're gonna feel what the hell happened. Uh, it was or I
interviewed Don Schomburg the potter and I, he became mute on me. I'd say
don It's good to see you here. Yes, it's good. Don could you tell us
something about your work? Well, maybe well done. What kind of work do you
do? Just general parts. And I couldn't get him to say, oh, I couldn't get
him to see a damn thing. Uh, I I thought the whole program and the whole
thing was a disaster. And I think bob Ellis agreed with me because they
were all erased. There's no history of Rudy Turks gallery at issue. They
were all done live on the spot. Yes,
but they but they they were they were funny. Something went wrong every
single time.
Too bad. We don't have copies.
But I still think that whenever I see an ottoman, I think, oh God, I
couldn't remember audio. I'm standing there, this great, great american
naturalist scientist whose name is a byword for naturalism.
Mhm. Whenever you see bob Alice, you think about that show
Okay.