WEBVTT

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 and the first thing I'd like to do, we need to do is to identify the tape

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that today is monday january the
ninth, 2006. And um my name is pam

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Stevenson and I'll be doing the
interview and Manny Garcia is our

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photographer and we're doing this for
a living history video project for a

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few retirees association. And we are
here at the visitor information

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center at A. S. U. Rural and Apache
and I'd like to have you introduce

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yourself. Why don't you give us your
full name? I'm Rudy turk to you.

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Arcade.

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No simple name. Um tell me when you
were born and where you were born. Oh

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many, many years ago, June

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24th, 1927 feast of ST john the
baptist,

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sheboygan Wisconsin.

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Tell me a little bit about your
growing oh that gets very complicated

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because

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my father was in and out of jail a
great deal. He was a bootlegger. I

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lived most of my early childhood with
my grandparents or devout Catholics

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and I was brought up to be a saint
with my ambition and there's

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and I think that the experience of
growing up in a very religious

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background let me great the great part
into art because I love the music,

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the lights, the candles, the statues,
stained glass windows being an altar

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boy the whole whole bit. So my first
years were basically very religious

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years when I went to high school, I
went to live with my parents who at

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that time ran a nightclub, a bar and
restaurant and I worked in both with

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my high school years.

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Oh yes, yes, definitely. Um And it was
a little bit more high class, you

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know, at that time and after high
school I went into the Navy in a short

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period of life in the Navy. But
fortunately most of it was spent in

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Chicago and I spent most of my free
time at the Chicago art institute,

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studying the art uh never thinking of
making a career of it, but really

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loving it very much. And then
amazingly at the same time I was doing that

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, a girl from Kentucky was visiting
and studying at the art institute. We

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never met, until you know that 15
years later when she became my wife

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wanda wanda.

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No, we didn't,

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we met in graduate school and had a
very short romance, A six week romance

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and marriage. So what the town where
you were growing up, was it a small

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town 39,000

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on lake Michigan said he have chairs,
cheese, churches and Children. My

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grandfather was a cabinet maker and it
was a small town german town, One

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of the few places in the United States
where the German bund marched in

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four July parade. Did you grow up
speaking german, a little bit of german

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as a matter of fact, it's very
interesting. My grandparents and my father

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were illiterate and about seven
languages. A little bit of each and not

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formal languages and I sort of picked
up a little bit of that. I can say

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that I'm basically illiterate in seven
language too. Mhm. When you were a

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boy going to school, were you a good
student? I was an exceptional student.

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Uh, the catholic school, I was at the
top of the class. Always. Mm hmm.

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Especially in religious studies,
history also. And then I spent two years

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in the country school. There were only
12 of us in school. And those of us

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that were in advanced grades helped
teach the Children in the lower grades

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and really was probably the best
educational experience I ever had. Among

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other things, I had a chance to read
the encyclopedia Britannica.

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Well sometimes you would be at the
school for 2, 3 weeks because you'll be

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snowed in. And so did a lot of reading
a lot of storytelling. Uh, that's a

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great experience. Did you have any
career goals other than to be a saint?

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Uh, not really until I was in the Navy
and he was still my, my goal. I was

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going to be a scene. I had a painting
of Saint Aloysius on my wall and he

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had a cross in one hand and a skull on
the other and I used to practice

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that. You know.

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Uh, and uh, when I got through the
Navy for a very short period of time, I

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wanted to be a doctor and then when I
went to the University of Wisconsin

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and took the biology classes, I
fainted every time there was blood. So

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shortly after that through the
influence of a wonderful teacher, historian

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by the name of gains post. I decided I
wanted to go into the field of

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history. It's surprisingly all my
degrees are in history, political,

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history. For the most part, people
expect it to be an art, but no, my

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degrees are in history actually. I was
a balkan specialist who has never

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given a single lecture on the Balkans.
What did you think you would do

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with that as a career? Well, number
one, surprisingly, I thought it would

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be a spy. No, I'm serious. I really
thought so. Uh, this was the time of

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the Cold War. Um many acquaintances of
ours were involved with. Okay,

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getting Tito recognized by the United
States government louis. Adams who

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was a great uh Slovene writer living
in America, wrote about adam and he

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was a good friend of ours, Good
friend. A lot of the slavs. And for a

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period of time, the slobs in the
United States were either broking or pro

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Tito. Uh My family was split on that
of course, but I went to indiana

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University to study under the spy
master of the Balkans. And only

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coincidentally I went into the field
of art also see at the school it was

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necessary to have a major field
history and mine was balkan history And

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then have three minors and outside of
the department and it was very easy

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when I found out they had folklore. I
took folklore because I had done

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folklore at the University of
Tennessee a couple of years before that. So

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folklore was good. American financial
history appealed to me for some

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reason or other. I can't fathom it
now, but I couldn't think of a third ah

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field of study. And finally I said to
the chairman of the department,

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what's that building across the
street? And he said that's the art

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building. And I said well how about my
neighboring and art? He said fine.

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So I minored in art. Um The first
semester in my first art class history

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class Came to the six weeks test And I
finished it in about 15 minutes. It

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was an identification test was very
simple and everybody else was writing

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like mad. I went over my test, there
was no way to correct it. So I

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finally left and I thought oh I really
goofed on this one and all the

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other kids were writing. Well two
weeks later the head of the department

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came in and said, Dirk Dirk Who's
Dirk? I raised my hand timidly and he

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said, you're the best student I've had
in years, why don't I know you? And

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I said well sir, I know here he says,
well I'm supposed to know all the

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new graduate students. I said well I'm
no but I'm in history department.

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So what you're doing over there? I
said I've studied history. He said, how

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would you like to be my assistant? And
I said, well that would be

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wonderful sir. But I'm in the history
department. He said, How much they

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pay their nice at $700. He said, we'll
give you 1000 settled, you're my

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assistant. And I said, I'm still a
history major. He says that's fine. So

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I became the assistant of Henry Hope,
who was one of the outstanding

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scholars in art history in the world.
He also happened to be the husband

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of the eli lilly eris and had the
finest home in town, huge collection of

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magnificent art, which I took care of
them when they were out of town. So

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I used to go to bed occasionally in a
room full of paul clays or eat lunch

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in the dining room covered with rock
paintings. It was wonderful. And and

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he was also an editor of Unesco
Publications. So I got to meet the people

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in new york and unesco met nelson
Rockefeller. I had a wonderful time and

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then I also assisted famous artists
that came to the school. David smith,

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who was one of America's leading
sculptors, was one of the people I

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assisted. So I had a wonderful time
with my minor field. Um but I went off

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to europe on a Fulbright. I had a
wonderful time, took a art topic for my

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doctorate and had a wonderful time,
but then applied for jobs in the

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United States as a balkan historian.
It was still in my field and I got

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rejected time and time again. Then one
day I received a letter from the

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University of Montana. Dear Mr turk.
The job for which you have applied

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has been filled. However, we have four
positions on the campus that you

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might be interested in. Would you be
interested in teaching art history,

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starting a gallery, starting art
museum lecturing in humanities. I wrote

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back, I'd be interested in all of
them. Yeah, and I got the job and I did

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all of them. Mhm. Uh, that was a
turning point in my career and this was

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the University of Montana in Missoula,
Montana,

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nope, one of my presidents by the way
was dr new Bern who wound up being

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president here. Yeah, so I got to know
a lot of people that a lot of

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Montana's wound up in Tempe Arizona,
strangely enough could be,

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I was in Montana three years, 3 full
years. And finally one day I received

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three letters in the mail. Now this
sounds absolutely false, but it's true.

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I guarantee it. First letter was from
the director of a gallery and Art

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center in California saying I'm
retiring, I know you're interested in art

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and you, you have borrowed shows from
us. Would you be interested in my

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job, number two letter, Dear Rudy from
a pal uh, there's a job open in

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Richmond California? Just up your
alley. Why don't you apply for it? A

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letter from Pete Focus when America's
leading uh potters who I also knew

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and said, you know, I would get her
out of those Montana winters come and

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get a job at Richmond Arts Center. So
I applied and got the job and then I

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was hooked on art for the rest of my
life. And the Richmond Art Center was

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a big complex. Number one galleries,
Number two classrooms, full

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classrooms from Kindergarten on
through college level. And you got college

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credit at the University of
California, Berkeley Symphony Orchestra,

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Junior Symphony Orchestra, a ballet
company and all the playgrounds in the

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town after three o'clock in the
afternoon. It was all mine, simple little

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job.

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I was in Richmond five years and I
finally just cracked up, it was too

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much. And from there I went to san
Diego and became assistant director and

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then very, very quickly acting
director of the Fine Arts Gallery of San

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Diego. Now known as the san Diego
Museum of Art. I was there for two years

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but I really didn't like it that much.
I missed teaching, which I had

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loved in Montana. I missed a lot of
Modern Art Museum was primarily

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Historical art and I applied for a job
at the University of Arizona Tucson

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and I was hired. I was hired on a
Saturday morning at about 9:00 and about

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10:30 I was fired it so happened that
the director who had quit had

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decided to come back unbeknownst to
me, they sent my records to a S. U.

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And one day I received a call from
Henry brian's board, Dean of the

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College of Fine Arts. And here's you.
I said, what's that? What's that? He

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repeated Henry brian's Medina College
of Fine Arts says we'd like to have

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you become our director? I said, what
are you talking about? I don't know

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anything about you. He said we know
all about you. I said, okay, now

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what's this? He said, we have a
gallery, we want to make it into a museum

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and we would like to have you as a
structure. I said, well I have to think

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about this. He's come and visit come
and visit. So I came to visit and he

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took me for a ride from the airport
all the way To the university via all

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of Scottsdale, Paradise Valley. So
far. They didn't realize it at the time

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, it was a quick sale, you know, uh
67. And we wandered around and and he

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took me to lunch at Richard's house,
Gail Richards and there was a new

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Bern sitting there. The president who
had served under for a while at

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Montana. And it took me to see the
president and I had met dr Durham when

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he visited Montana years before I was
his guests. Well, there was a

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controversy at the school and then
there was a vice president here at the

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time. I can't think of his name who
also had been President Montana. So I

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thought my gosh they all know me and
wanted me and I visited the art

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collections in Matthew's center.
Wasn't impressed with the facility ah and

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spent the night there and then the
next day dr binds mama took me to the

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airport and he said we are offering
you the job. And I said oh I don't

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think so, I don't think so. He says
young man you're going to miss an

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opportunity if you don't take the job.
We know all about you. What do you

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mean? You know all about me? He says I
happen to know that your father is

00:15:44.429 --> 00:15:49.447
sort of a town character in Sheboygan.
He was he was in prison for

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bootlegging. I said this is going too
far. He says I can't help it. He

00:15:55.330 --> 00:15:59.476
said my father was principal of the
Dutch Reform School in Sheboygan. So

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he grew up in this wagon as I did. We
had never met. Well a couple of

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weeks later after he raised the I. N.
T. For salary I took the job so

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that's how I got here again. You can
see everything comes sort of from

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unexplained and unexpected directions.
That was 1967.

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And what was your first salary? Oh gee
I think it was 11,011,000

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And I had a total budget of 37,000

00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.646
and for which I taught in the history
in the art department. I taught in

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the humanities department. I ran the
gallery put on shows all over the

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campus. I worked my butt off quite
frankly,

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I was associate professor of art and
curator of the art collection

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collection. Mhm. Rudy, who was just
before you Hugh broadly. Few broadly.

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Okay, that's what I was trying to
think of her. Thank you. And he had

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already left. Yeah, you broadly was my
predecessor and then Mrs Gammage

00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:20.107
was actually one of my predecessors

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and dr Durham

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had addressed the faculty earlier in
the year and he talked about

00:17:28.950 --> 00:17:35.066
establishing it issue the love of the
west. And that's what he told me.

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We're going to have the love of the
west. Well, he was a little misguided.

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One of the big potential donors never
came through. But we have at that

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time already one of the finest
american historical collections. And we

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built up on that.

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What was your first impression of a
issue at that time? Well, it was not

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even an impression of the issue. It
was of Arizona. I thought it was a big

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gravel pit. That's what I really
wasn't impressed. I had been here many

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years before. I had been an altar boy
for the Bishop of Milwaukee and he

00:18:13.859 --> 00:18:19.756
had his some of the altar boys
vacation in uh Chandler at the hotel and

00:18:19.789 --> 00:18:24.806
Chandler. So, and I remember driving
through Tempe only because of the

00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:30.627
cement tents that lined the street,
you know, but I wasn't impressed and I

00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:36.657
told my wife it's awfully hot there.
And uh it's like a big gravel pit,

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but it'll be fine For one for 3 or
four years. Fine. Well I stayed on for

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25 years. Obviously we changed my
mind. Something must have changed your

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mind.

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Where was your office located? And
Matthews Center, I had an office in

00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:04.847
Matthew's actually my first office in
Matthew's Center was a men's

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bathroom which had a slab desk over
the toilet seat. And I sat behind it.

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And then I had one gallery, one total
gallery. Well from that time on, it

00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:24.756
was a question of how much space can I
grab every year. I managed to grab

00:19:24.789 --> 00:19:28.357
some space, the law school and I
fought for space on the second floor of

00:19:28.390 --> 00:19:34.756
Matthew Center. And where was your 1st
gallery? Well that was the front

00:19:34.789 --> 00:19:39.907
gallery in Matthew's center.

00:19:39.940 --> 00:19:45.347
Mhm. You mentioned the president, head
of your department who got you to

00:19:45.380 --> 00:19:49.357
come here. Mhm.

00:19:49.390 --> 00:19:54.566
Oh yes. I taught art history, tough
survey courses are taught american

00:19:54.599 --> 00:20:00.566
history, taught renaissance history, I
taught whatever nobody else wanted

00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:03.707
to teach. Quite frankly.

00:20:03.740 --> 00:20:09.119
I didn't really get along too well
with the people in the art department.

00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.200
Unfortunately, most of them thought of the gallery and then eventually the

00:20:14.069 --> 00:20:19.137
museum is a place to show their work.
And I always thought that was much

00:20:19.170 --> 00:20:26.746
too limited concept. So you weren't
really what you want.

00:20:26.779 --> 00:20:31.717
I worked in the art department in the
humanities department as well as

00:20:31.750 --> 00:20:36.127
being separate. And of course both
departments felt that they should have

00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:42.006
control over the art gallery and that
was one of the big fights of my life.

00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:47.316
Keeping it independent. Also, even
keeping it at the university because

00:20:47.349 --> 00:20:52.607
there was a great movement to give the
entire collection to the city of

00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:57.806
phoenix and the phoenix art museum and
I had to fight that off for years.

00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:03.516
How large was the collection? It was
about 300 pieces And now it's nearly

00:21:03.549 --> 00:21:08.806
10,000 has grown a great deal.

00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:15.707
Uh Oh I cannot think of the man who
donated but the richest man in Arizona

00:21:15.740 --> 00:21:22.796
who was very, very strong conservative
and american lover. I'm not putting

00:21:22.829 --> 00:21:29.516
him down. He really loved America and
he wanted that little school in

00:21:29.549 --> 00:21:35.917
Tempe would have a work of american
art in every classroom. That was his

00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:40.776
goal. And he started giving art to
bind, going to new york buying. And

00:21:40.809 --> 00:21:44.907
unfortunately american art was very
inexpensive at that time. But still it

00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:52.286
was a tremendous contribution and he
gave these things and eventually the

00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.687
collection grew so large it was
impossible to put it in rooms all around

00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:02.266
the campus. Somebody had to take care
of it. So they transferred it all to

00:22:02.299 --> 00:22:06.207
Matthew's center

00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:11.607
Oliver James was the name of the
collector. I'm sorry now I remember

00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:15.306
it was the room for it. Oh yes. I
found room. You could always find room

00:22:15.339 --> 00:22:22.617
for another piece. Were you able to
display? Yeah. No I was able to

00:22:22.650 --> 00:22:27.927
display as some people who were there
at the time. I remember I used the

00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:32.826
hallways, I used the stairwells. I
used every space. I even hung things in

00:22:32.859 --> 00:22:37.647
the bathrooms. Uh huh. My feeling is
if you have the material you should

00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:42.726
show it. Unfortunately at this stage
we're in now that's absolutely

00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:47.256
impossible. There's too much. But this
is a problem that museums across

00:22:47.289 --> 00:22:52.996
the world face, they have more art
than and other precious materials than

00:22:53.029 --> 00:22:58.546
they can possibly house at any one
time. So you have to rotate things. And

00:22:58.579 --> 00:23:02.707
I was very good at rotating things
too.

00:23:02.740 --> 00:23:06.407
So I pat myself on the shoulder,

00:23:06.440 --> 00:23:11.286
Tell me a little bit about how your
career progressed here. Mhm. The

00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:15.347
department didn't like, Well they
didn't like me. No, they really didn't

00:23:15.380 --> 00:23:20.546
because I wasn't doing favors for
them. I finally made a rule either we

00:23:20.579 --> 00:23:27.996
would have a one faculty show a year
or a show of one faculty member year.

00:23:28.029 --> 00:23:34.417
That's the way we handled it. Um And
then my approach to art was more

00:23:34.450 --> 00:23:39.326
lighthearted than a lot of them
approved of. Although at that time the art

00:23:39.359 --> 00:23:46.506
department has some real weird people
and so I was just one of many harry

00:23:46.539 --> 00:23:52.597
would harry would brilliant man. But
really very very strange man. You

00:23:52.630 --> 00:24:00.266
know I for instance I think of he
would come in office and he would

00:24:00.299 --> 00:24:05.566
teleport, he would say I teleported
myself to Israel today? Or I

00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:11.006
teleported myself to the moon
yesterday and I can remember one time he

00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:17.026
came into my office and it's test time
and he said I'm all done with tests

00:24:17.059 --> 00:24:19.947
and I said, what kind of test do you
give your kids? He says I teleported

00:24:19.980 --> 00:24:23.697
them all up to the moon and then when
they came back they all had to draw

00:24:23.730 --> 00:24:31.127
pictures of what they saw up there. Mm
hmm. You know, but he stimulated

00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.717
students like mad. He probably was in
that respect. He was probably one of

00:24:34.750 --> 00:24:40.256
the great professors. That is you.

00:24:40.289 --> 00:24:48.289
Oh yes, yes, Cool. Mhm. Any other
people? Well the thing is what was bob's

00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:56.836
name and humanities? Oh gee, this is
terrible. Um through the humanities

00:24:56.869 --> 00:25:04.306
department, I took one of the first
outside the state trips for students

00:25:04.339 --> 00:25:09.806
and I remember an eight week trip of
europe, which was really great fun.

00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:15.806
Although my co director was drunk most
of the time these things do happen.

00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:22.177
The problem. Mhm. Who was the head of
the humanities department and

00:25:22.210 --> 00:25:26.207
really me that department goal, it
wouldn't be, it wouldn't have been for

00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.996
him, there wouldn't be humanities
department today or religious studies

00:25:31.029 --> 00:25:35.296
department. He really was the backbone
of that for many years. But again,

00:25:35.329 --> 00:25:40.746
a character and I say that with love
because we wrote a textbook together

00:25:40.779 --> 00:25:47.097
, They went into nine editions. So we
worked at least 14 years on that one

00:25:47.130 --> 00:25:53.607
textbook which put our Children
through college, what's the name? God,

00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:58.266
what is the name of the textbook? Ah

00:25:58.299 --> 00:26:05.336
I'm sorry. Isn't that strange? I can't
pull it up. Yes, I'll pull it up

00:26:05.369 --> 00:26:13.107
later. Sounds like an interesting
story.

00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:18.607
Yes. nine editions. And I cannot think
the title nothing to do with artist.

00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:23.647
It had a lot of pride in it. Well, it
was very interesting textbook

00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:28.826
because at that time in humanity's
across the nation, you wanted to take a

00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:32.847
course, You had to buy a play, you had
to buy a book of philosophy, you

00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:36.967
had to buy a book of art. You had to
buy a whole mess of books. Well Bob

00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:42.937
and I and one other gentlemen put all
these factors, all these items in a

00:26:42.970 --> 00:26:47.897
single volume or two volumes as it
was. So are books had plays, it had

00:26:47.930 --> 00:26:53.617
music scores, it had literature, it
had history, it had photographs and

00:26:53.650 --> 00:26:58.816
eventually it even had a film and tape

00:26:58.849 --> 00:27:04.427
and it was very successful. It was
adapted by many of the states for high

00:27:04.460 --> 00:27:10.947
school and junior colleges. Search for
personal freedom. That's the name

00:27:10.980 --> 00:27:15.816
of the book. Search for Personal
freedom. Sounds like a harder humanities

00:27:15.849 --> 00:27:20.617
particularly. Oh yes. Oh yes. What are
we looking for in our life? You

00:27:20.650 --> 00:27:23.207
know, it's interesting,

00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:28.056
it's still in print. It's still in
print, but I don't think they sell many

00:27:28.089 --> 00:27:33.806
copies. I think I get a small check
every july.

00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:38.506
So how did tell me a little more about
how your career progressed here?

00:27:38.539 --> 00:27:44.147
Well if progress room by room as they
took over Matthew's center, uh One

00:27:44.180 --> 00:27:48.336
of the first rooms I took over was a
small room which I turned into a

00:27:48.369 --> 00:27:53.996
latin american gallery and a. S. U. Is
the first university in the entire

00:27:54.029 --> 00:27:58.586
United States to have a latin american
gallery. It was very appropriate. I

00:27:58.619 --> 00:28:04.319
thought living next to Mexico the
whole bit but it was very very unusual.

00:28:04.329 --> 00:28:06.329
Number two

00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:15.157
I don't know and intuition and nobody
stopped me, you know, although I

00:28:15.190 --> 00:28:19.097
remember the first day of the dead
altar I put together in the gallery

00:28:19.130 --> 00:28:23.377
caused a tremendous commotion.
President vice Presidents, the deeds

00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:27.617
everybody consulted on it, can we do
this? This is separation of church

00:28:27.650 --> 00:28:32.937
and state and the whole thing. But we
kept it. Where did you get the latin

00:28:32.970 --> 00:28:39.826
american art? Um Well it was very
interesting. I had money to collect art

00:28:39.859 --> 00:28:46.947
. I was not allowed to raise money at
that time because the president said

00:28:46.980 --> 00:28:50.387
the day will come when there will be
money. But in the meantime we don't

00:28:50.420 --> 00:28:57.097
want to irritate the phoenix art
museum people, however many people were

00:28:57.130 --> 00:29:01.157
very dissatisfied with the phoenix art
museum and the heard museum and

00:29:01.190 --> 00:29:08.236
they came to me And said, wouldn't you
like to have this or that or many

00:29:08.269 --> 00:29:14.657
times they come and say can you get
anything for $100 And that was the

00:29:14.690 --> 00:29:18.967
beginnings of the ceramic collection.
People would come with small money,

00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:24.756
ceramics were still very inexpensive
and we bought ceramics and got grants

00:29:24.789 --> 00:29:31.266
and ceramics And it was the seed for
now, which is now one of the five top

00:29:31.299 --> 00:29:35.927
ceramic collections in the entire
country. I'm glad to be the father of

00:29:35.960 --> 00:29:40.486
that. What made you get interested in
collecting? Well, when I had been in

00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:44.786
Montana, I worked with Rudy Audio on
Pete Focus or two of the great

00:29:44.819 --> 00:29:51.107
ceramic teachers and producers in
America and knew their work. I like

00:29:51.140 --> 00:29:57.556
ceramics. And when I was in Richmond
California, we always had huge

00:29:57.589 --> 00:30:02.847
ceramic exhibitions When I came here.
Well what could you buy for $100?

00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:07.147
You couldn't buy a painting for $100,
prints were expensive even at that

00:30:07.180 --> 00:30:13.697
time, although I did get a lot of
prints, but ceramics were available. I

00:30:13.730 --> 00:30:17.246
really had never had any attention of
building this huge ceramic

00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:20.546
collection that we have today. Matter
of fact, I thought I would do

00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:26.217
fabrics. I was very, very transparent
fabrics but fabrics didn't hook on.

00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:30.427
People did not respond to it. But the
ceramics did. People love to see

00:30:30.460 --> 00:30:37.766
bulls. There were, it's a useful
thing. Tactile thing and that's how

00:30:37.799 --> 00:30:40.197
that's developed.

00:30:40.230 --> 00:30:47.306
How did you decide which ceramics were
art?

00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:55.026
That's that's my field, my field of
study, my field of work and when you

00:30:55.059 --> 00:31:01.006
study you learn and make decisions and
I think that I made some very good

00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:08.187
decisions. How would you describe that
process? Okay.

00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:11.877
I don't know if you watch dog shows on
tv. Have you ever watched dog shows

00:31:11.910 --> 00:31:16.457
? Okay. They get a dog, they have a
bulldog. And then let's say they have

00:31:16.490 --> 00:31:23.046
a master, They don't judge them by the
same qualities. Each piece is

00:31:23.079 --> 00:31:28.746
judged on its own terms and you do the
same thing in ceramics. What do I

00:31:28.779 --> 00:31:34.157
see? What do I know? What was the
artist trying to do now? You can know if

00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:38.597
the artist is trying to be smooth,
trying to be rumbled, trying to be

00:31:38.630 --> 00:31:44.296
rough whatever. How well does the
artist do what he's trying to do? That's

00:31:44.329 --> 00:31:49.036
the decision then after that you say.
But what does this mean to me? But

00:31:49.069 --> 00:31:54.046
it's a question, how well does the
artist do what he's trying to do? And

00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:00.707
that's the rule you can use and
judging all art say I am.

00:32:00.740 --> 00:32:04.996
In addition to the ceramics, we built
a very large print collection at the

00:32:05.029 --> 00:32:09.296
issue. And again, it's one of the
finest university print collections in

00:32:09.329 --> 00:32:15.907
the country, purely by accident. I had
nothing to do with the early stages.

00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:23.806
We received collections of whistlers,
jurors,

00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:27.607
Whistler's jurors Rembrandts

00:32:27.640 --> 00:32:33.457
and some other works from local
collectors who wanted to give their

00:32:33.490 --> 00:32:38.207
collections to the phoenix art museum
and fortunately at that particular

00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:43.276
time, the director of the phoenix art
museum who was a charming man, very

00:32:43.309 --> 00:32:47.046
wonderful social man. Didn't know
anything about Prince, he thought they

00:32:47.079 --> 00:32:51.657
were just reproductions and he didn't
take them. So they came out to A S.

00:32:51.690 --> 00:32:57.387
U. And that was the foundation for the
S. U. Print collection which grew

00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:02.746
madly. I contributed very heavily
myself. I had a large print collection I

00:33:02.779 --> 00:33:09.826
acquired when I was a student in
paris. I gave that to s you um The uh and

00:33:09.859 --> 00:33:14.187
other people who came with prints,
prints are not as popular with the

00:33:14.220 --> 00:33:19.786
public as ceramics or paintings. But
we do have a very fine print

00:33:19.819 --> 00:33:24.907
collection in his.

00:33:24.940 --> 00:33:29.447
What's your collection? That sounds
like. Outgrew with the Mathews Center.

00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:33.976
Oh yes it was outgrowing. Matthews
center yes and Matthews center had all

00:33:34.009 --> 00:33:37.607
kinds of problems. We had leaks that
couldn't be fixed. As a matter of

00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:41.546
fact. I remember one of the galleries,
we had a leak that would not go

00:33:41.579 --> 00:33:46.377
away. So I built a wall around the
leak and had a little bucket there and

00:33:46.410 --> 00:33:50.167
you could open the door. There was the
bucket and the water would come

00:33:50.200 --> 00:33:53.457
down into it.

00:33:53.490 --> 00:33:57.877
The university wasn't too anxious to
spend much money on the art

00:33:57.910 --> 00:34:05.137
collection after dr New Bern left. It
was really a rough hall as a matter

00:34:05.170 --> 00:34:07.707
of fact.

00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:13.117
Well telling tales out of school. One
of the Deans who will be nameless

00:34:13.150 --> 00:34:17.776
forgot to put in my budget one year.
Absolutely forgot it completely. You

00:34:17.809 --> 00:34:21.956
can see what low esteem I was held. I
was working my butt off. But they

00:34:21.989 --> 00:34:28.367
forgot about my budget. Uh, the last
Dean that I worked for really did not

00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:33.467
want the new museum to, to be, He
wanted it to be a dance facility

00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:40.006
completely. So, I mean, it was always
a struggle. Mm hmm.

00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:43.206
I know We interviewed Russell nelson
this morning and he mentioned that he

00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:46.697
recalls going over when it rained and
seeing you running around trying to

00:34:46.730 --> 00:34:53.977
protect. Well, he was very supportive
the museum. He he and dr during were

00:34:54.010 --> 00:34:58.537
the two people that were very
supportive. As a matter of fact, rumor has

00:34:58.570 --> 00:35:03.626
it that when the Dean was willing to
dismiss the art museum from the new

00:35:03.659 --> 00:35:10.447
facility, dr nelson said, oh, we
mustn't disappoint Rudy again. I don't

00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:16.506
know if that's true. But it sounds
like us. It was a very, very nice man.

00:35:16.539 --> 00:35:20.506
Mm hmm. Turning Bulls himself.

00:35:20.539 --> 00:35:22.907
Um,

00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:28.436
tell me about how the art, the new art
museum came about. Well, I had been

00:35:28.469 --> 00:35:33.907
promised a new building the day that I
came. That didn't happen obviously.

00:35:33.940 --> 00:35:39.387
And it was a question of raising
money. Mm hmm. But there were other

00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:44.267
things that were considered more
important at the time. Finally, Dean

00:35:44.300 --> 00:35:52.300
Heller, I got a grant For $75,000 to
bring in a team of architects who

00:35:53.389 --> 00:36:00.776
would set up a panel to study
possibilities of a new museum and even come

00:36:00.809 --> 00:36:08.046
up with a contest too three ah
architects here to design a building And

00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:13.026
that contest that they designed, there
was five finalists.

00:36:13.059 --> 00:36:18.997
People were very interested And when
he started coming in at that time,

00:36:19.030 --> 00:36:25.157
for instance, one of my Dawson's
astrid thomas Ran the, get started and

00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:29.936
ran the gallery store and as soon as
she found out we were going to have a

00:36:29.969 --> 00:36:34.186
museum, a real museum. She gave $1
million dollars so we could have the

00:36:34.219 --> 00:36:41.447
gallery store ah Jax Herberger keeping
with about $45,000 money started

00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:44.097
coming in.

00:36:44.130 --> 00:36:52.130
No, as one of the only facilities in
the university that was over 90% paid

00:36:52.780 --> 00:36:55.887
for by private funds.

00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:00.256
Were you involved in the competition
of the No. We were completely out of

00:37:00.289 --> 00:37:04.197
it and we sat and watched in agony
because we saw some of the plans and

00:37:04.230 --> 00:37:09.206
said, oh my God, there was one plan
that the entire building had a glass

00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:15.006
roof. Oh God, that gets accepted would
be horrible. Another plan had the

00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:19.657
museum and five little buildings
scattered over plaza. So you would have

00:37:19.690 --> 00:37:23.477
to carry out from one building to
another in Arizona's hot weather just

00:37:23.510 --> 00:37:29.486
great. You know. So it was a horrible
experience until the final award was

00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:35.287
made. And we were very pleased with
the facility, strangely enough. Even

00:37:35.320 --> 00:37:40.467
today, I can't fathom a lot of people
did not like the building and still

00:37:40.500 --> 00:37:45.666
don't like the building. I will say
this. It's an unusual building. It's

00:37:45.699 --> 00:37:50.396
one of the few buildings of the campus
that has a claw, has a little

00:37:50.429 --> 00:37:54.057
spirit to it. Most of the buildings
are window, window, window, window,

00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:58.456
window or window, window and door,
window, window, window, here's an

00:37:58.489 --> 00:38:03.787
interesting building. Yeah. And I am
very pleased with it.

00:38:03.820 --> 00:38:09.686
Found two. It's very different
building inside than outside

00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:15.997
inside And has wonderful vistas that
these large staircases going up three

00:38:16.030 --> 00:38:22.336
floors. And sometimes when I got a
little uh pixelated I would run up and

00:38:22.369 --> 00:38:26.666
down the stairs and run up imagine
that I was fleeing a mob of Russian

00:38:26.699 --> 00:38:32.177
peasants and you know or I'd march up
the steps, we're going to my

00:38:32.210 --> 00:38:39.876
coronation. It's a wonderful play
building. Use your imagination.

00:38:39.909 --> 00:38:43.287
We'll talk a little bit about the
controversy over that building though

00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:46.947
when it was being constructed. I
remember there was oh yes. Some people

00:38:46.980 --> 00:38:53.597
said it looked like a jail. Actually
one of the problems with the public

00:38:53.630 --> 00:38:58.387
on the building is they really don't
take the time to look at it. If you

00:38:58.420 --> 00:39:02.876
look at the front of the building it's
low, it hits the ground, it's like

00:39:02.909 --> 00:39:08.296
an Egyptian mustafa, you know and the
wonderful pathway of those palm

00:39:08.329 --> 00:39:13.347
trees or cacti going to the building.
Wonderful pattern. Then you hit the

00:39:13.380 --> 00:39:20.787
side and it rolls and you get a view
of the

00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:26.686
the auditorium. Gammage auditorium,
the music building just rolls along.

00:39:26.719 --> 00:39:32.017
Then in the back it goes up high,
jumps way high becomes a sort of modern

00:39:32.050 --> 00:39:37.267
skyscraper and then the other side,
the last side is very functional. Big

00:39:37.300 --> 00:39:42.686
windows, big doorways, It's a
fascinating building, but you really have to

00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:48.037
take the time to experience and walk
around and walk in and then walk into

00:39:48.070 --> 00:39:53.267
it too, which is fascinating. Ah you
know, most buildings, windows, doors

00:39:53.300 --> 00:39:57.146
, corridors, long corridors.

00:39:57.179 --> 00:40:03.367
I was some of the state buildings
recently and in phoenix, I thought, oh

00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:08.267
my gosh, will this corridor ever end?
And finally it stopped but it jutted

00:40:08.300 --> 00:40:13.247
into another corridor, awfully boring
or hotel rooms in the hall corridor

00:40:13.280 --> 00:40:18.276
, door, door, door, door, door. But
here's a building that is rather

00:40:18.309 --> 00:40:26.309
exciting to be in. A lot of people are
afraid to be excited.

00:40:26.309 --> 00:40:29.477
A lot of people were joking about when
we're going to paint it.

00:40:29.510 --> 00:40:33.807
Unfortunately did a lousy plaster job
on it. It needs to be re plastered.

00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.977
 Yeah,

00:40:38.010 --> 00:40:42.427
Do you think about your career here on
campus? What are the things that

00:40:42.460 --> 00:40:45.287
stand out to you?

00:40:45.320 --> 00:40:52.477
Well, ah actually people are expecting
to see getting the new building.

00:40:52.510 --> 00:40:59.197
But no, I really enjoyed the teaching
aspect of it. Mm hmm.

00:40:59.230 --> 00:41:06.546
They've loved teaching the survey
course and I engaged the students in my

00:41:06.579 --> 00:41:10.956
teaching. I didn't just lecture. I
really made them respond in the class

00:41:10.989 --> 00:41:16.126
and I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the
graduate students to end the small

00:41:16.159 --> 00:41:19.677
seminars, enjoyed that immensely.

00:41:19.710 --> 00:41:26.597
Um I enjoyed working with the doses
volunteer ladies and I will say this

00:41:26.630 --> 00:41:32.856
and this is very, very sincere if it
would have been for the docents for

00:41:32.889 --> 00:41:37.776
these ladies have volunteered hours
upon hours of their time. Sometimes

00:41:37.809 --> 00:41:43.236
money, there wouldn't be a museum.
They kept the thing going. I had a

00:41:43.269 --> 00:41:48.427
small staff needed people to help to
work and they worked, I was in an

00:41:48.460 --> 00:41:54.927
automobile accident was all smashed
up. I couldn't drive every day. A old

00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:59.456
lady would pick me up and between the
lady and my wife, they had pushed me

00:41:59.489 --> 00:42:04.006
into a car and it would be painful.
But then I get to the university and

00:42:04.039 --> 00:42:08.367
the student helper would put me in a
wheelchair and then all day the lady

00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:13.756
pushed me around. I mean it's that
kind of thing. I loved my doses and I

00:42:13.789 --> 00:42:19.467
know that they love me too. Yeah. Uh
that that was a wonderful achievement.

00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:23.117
When I think of achievements at the
university, I think of people more

00:42:23.150 --> 00:42:27.546
than of the building. I enjoyed the
building. Of course, I enjoyed it. I

00:42:27.579 --> 00:42:31.327
enjoyed the morning mail. If you're a
director of a museum or a gallery,

00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:36.347
you get a tremendous amount of meal.
You get uh catalogs from museums and

00:42:36.380 --> 00:42:41.236
galleries all over the world and all
and invitations to wonderful events.

00:42:41.269 --> 00:42:48.566
That's fun. But it's the people that I
really enjoyed and here's you

00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:54.267
and I'll make another comment was very
interesting. I find interesting

00:42:54.300 --> 00:43:00.336
every month. I would pick a day and I
had my student helpers question

00:43:00.369 --> 00:43:05.427
everyone who came up into the museum.
What is your personal field b

00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:12.506
student faculty member, staff member
or somebody just coming in a wife

00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:17.267
whatever. Let's see what's your field.
But to do study in college and so

00:43:17.300 --> 00:43:21.296
forth. And there were always two
departments that were one and two

00:43:21.329 --> 00:43:25.276
sometimes the department A was one
sometimes was too but it was the same

00:43:25.309 --> 00:43:32.066
two departments for 25 years. Guess
what? Those departments were

00:43:32.099 --> 00:43:37.816
Physics and Chemistry. Most of my
adolescence came from the Physics and

00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:41.597
Chemistry. Their husbands were in
those departments. Most of the students

00:43:41.630 --> 00:43:47.336
that came You think that the art
department be number 1? Physics and

00:43:47.369 --> 00:43:50.867
Chemistry?

00:43:50.900 --> 00:43:55.756
Well I I think it is that here are
people who are devoted in the sciences

00:43:55.789 --> 00:44:01.206
but when they want to relax, they want
to go into the humanity. Mhm. And

00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:04.456
their interest in their speculative.

00:44:04.489 --> 00:44:10.657
I always appreciate. So I love the
scientist.

00:44:10.690 --> 00:44:15.847
Right? You mentioned a little bit
about some of president.

00:44:15.880 --> 00:44:17.956
Okay,

00:44:17.989 --> 00:44:22.916
well Homer was my absolute favorite.
Homer. Durham. He was a lovely,

00:44:22.949 --> 00:44:29.276
lovely man. And he was there when he
had a bad day when things were going

00:44:29.309 --> 00:44:33.807
wrong. He come up to the museum and he
walked back and forth and look at

00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:40.557
things in the gallery and he would
sing one day. I didn't realize it was

00:44:40.590 --> 00:44:44.227
home and I thought it was Jack
Breckinridge and I yelled out, hey quit

00:44:44.260 --> 00:44:47.997
your squawking in there and then whole
McDermott period. It was very

00:44:48.030 --> 00:44:50.146
apologetic.

00:44:50.179 --> 00:44:54.816
Of course I felt about that big uh he
and his wife would be calling me and

00:44:54.849 --> 00:44:59.066
I had to justify art. She didn't like
modern art and I have to justify but

00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:02.927
she almost made me swear, don't tell
homer that I called you. Uh They were

00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:07.447
very very involved. Then there were
the swatters and there was a different

00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:11.887
thing, completely swatter could have
cared less about the museum. He

00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:17.097
thought it was fun, that was it. And I
had to change I had to hang

00:45:17.130 --> 00:45:22.316
paintings in the border regions room
every month, a different change. And

00:45:22.349 --> 00:45:28.517
he didn't always like my changes. Uh
But a funny story on the president's

00:45:28.550 --> 00:45:34.557
wife, Wilma Suara came up to the
gallery and asked for things to decorate

00:45:34.590 --> 00:45:38.697
the President's home. This was
customary at that time. Bad practice. But

00:45:38.730 --> 00:45:44.856
it was customary. And she looked
through the things

00:45:44.889 --> 00:45:51.416
she said I'll talk to my husband and
he'll call you and dr shuala called

00:45:51.449 --> 00:45:57.006
and said she wants the picture of the
pace stack that pink haystack. And I

00:45:57.039 --> 00:46:03.119
said there is no such thing as a pink
case stack in the entire collection.

00:46:03.179 --> 00:46:05.179
Well ma I could hear him say there is no pink haystack and she gets on the

00:46:06.969 --> 00:46:10.146
phone. Of course it's a pink haystack.
You said I could have anything I

00:46:10.179 --> 00:46:14.586
want and now you're back you know and
I said I'm sorry there's no Pink

00:46:14.619 --> 00:46:20.477
Haystack in the collection. Okay about
half an hour Wilma comes out there.

00:46:20.510 --> 00:46:26.017
She's all set to fight. He's following
laughing and she says, there it is.

00:46:26.050 --> 00:46:30.077
And he says, oh, for crying out loud,
Wilma put on your glasses. It was a

00:46:30.110 --> 00:46:33.347
big pink nude.

00:46:33.380 --> 00:46:39.137
I always loved Wilma for that. And
then I loved the farewell when they

00:46:39.170 --> 00:46:43.106
gave her this huge, huge lei of
flowers and she said she felt like a

00:46:43.139 --> 00:46:46.506
racehorse. She

00:46:46.539 --> 00:46:52.827
was a fun lady. Uh mrs New Bern, of
course I knew up in Montana. So it was

00:46:52.860 --> 00:47:00.017
a long friendship there. And then came
the nelsons. Uh and bonita of

00:47:00.050 --> 00:47:05.376
course became a Dawson worked in the
store museum, always short of

00:47:05.409 --> 00:47:12.537
interest. And uh dr nelson with his
woodwork always had an attachment and

00:47:12.570 --> 00:47:18.477
supported me when my Dean wasn't
supporting me. So yeah, they were very

00:47:18.510 --> 00:47:22.347
different people. All very
interesting.

00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:30.380
What about this turned wood
collection? Oh, but Jacobson, local attorney

00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:38.679
and Art aficionado, started a wooden
bowl collection. Um by accident he

00:47:40.579 --> 00:47:45.407
borrowed, he bought three or 4 pieces
at the hand of Spirit Gallery in

00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:50.356
Scottsdale and put them on display in
his home. And at that time, about

00:47:50.389 --> 00:47:53.526
that time a

00:47:53.559 --> 00:47:57.646
there was a conference of museum
directors from all over the United States

00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:01.276
and of course he was one of the people
to entertain them and he expected

00:48:01.309 --> 00:48:05.356
them to go gaga about his paintings
and the sculpture. But they went gaga

00:48:05.389 --> 00:48:12.006
about the balls. So he started
collecting bowls and got me involved, you

00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:16.387
know who's doing bowls. But he didn't
call to me, he didn't call them

00:48:16.420 --> 00:48:23.977
bowls of his bowels reconnected
bowels. Um Finally he built a collection

00:48:24.010 --> 00:48:28.217
that was the best in the United
States. Absolutely the best. And he

00:48:28.250 --> 00:48:34.836
published a little book on that. Uh
And I was authorized to loan the

00:48:34.869 --> 00:48:39.477
collection to three or four galleries
outside and when it hit new york the

00:48:39.510 --> 00:48:45.206
new york critics just went wild about
it. Oh they loved it. And his bold

00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:50.736
collection is now not the largest any
longer but it is the nucleus for the

00:48:50.769 --> 00:48:56.896
collections of major collectors ever
since. And eventually he had promised

00:48:56.929 --> 00:49:01.677
the bull collection to me but he was
very coy. Would you like four or 5?

00:49:01.710 --> 00:49:05.106
Would you like 10? Would you like the
whole collection? Maybe you wouldn't

00:49:05.139 --> 00:49:08.566
like the whole thing? Well you
wouldn't appreciate my collection anyway.

00:49:08.599 --> 00:49:12.967
Oh he he was very much a Prima donna.
But we finally, with mrs Garrett's

00:49:13.000 --> 00:49:19.276
help we find the collection. And and I
gather in his will, he gave some

00:49:19.309 --> 00:49:25.637
money to help continue the collection.

00:49:25.670 --> 00:49:32.396
Is that one of your proudest things?
No, I think the of the of the

00:49:32.429 --> 00:49:36.736
collections it would have to be the
ceramic collection. You know, I think

00:49:36.769 --> 00:49:41.256
that was the biggest achievement and I
do love the ceramics and still

00:49:41.289 --> 00:49:49.289
there today, Given my own ceramics
mostly to the airport and to ah museums

00:49:50.420 --> 00:49:56.086
in Wisconsin primarily because my
pieces were not as good as those at A. S.

00:49:56.119 --> 00:50:01.057
U. Had to begin with. But I had a nice
collection I've given most of it

00:50:01.090 --> 00:50:06.747
away. I I think that was quite an
achievement and it probably was the

00:50:06.780 --> 00:50:13.247
achievement which holds best for the
present time. The the ceramic

00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:18.197
collection is known all over the
world? S use collection is known all over

00:50:18.230 --> 00:50:24.247
the world. Yeah. And people are coming
to see it now. For example we

00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:30.267
received after I retired we received A
collection of 300 pieces from a

00:50:30.300 --> 00:50:36.166
person who was here when these uh and
seek a which is the national

00:50:36.199 --> 00:50:41.847
Conference for ceramic arts met here.
They came to issues. They saw our

00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:46.767
collection were so impressed that they
gave their collection and

00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:53.727
collections build other collections.
Or the lady who came, I gave a tour

00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:58.787
of the collections to her and we went
through and then I found out as she

00:50:58.820 --> 00:51:02.776
was leaving that she was a powder too.
And I took her hand and said oh you

00:51:02.809 --> 00:51:06.106
have such small hands to do such big
pots because she showed me a picture

00:51:06.139 --> 00:51:09.747
of her pots about six months later
have a telephone call. You don't

00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:13.907
remember me but I'm the lady with the
little hands. And I'd like to give

00:51:13.940 --> 00:51:18.827
you our teapot collection so that the
collection grows and it's still

00:51:18.860 --> 00:51:24.086
growing today beyond any hope that I
ever had for it. I mean it's really

00:51:24.119 --> 00:51:28.117
wonderful what's happening there. Is
it unusual for a university to have

00:51:28.150 --> 00:51:34.227
such an extensive art? No, no, uh in
America, the universities have since

00:51:34.260 --> 00:51:41.396
, let's go back a minute since World
War Two, there has been an average of

00:51:41.429 --> 00:51:47.517
two museums built a week in the United
States, particularly every

00:51:47.550 --> 00:51:55.106
university in the country has a museum
of some kind ah buying and giving

00:51:55.139 --> 00:52:01.916
art is one of the safest thing for
millionaires to do. I mean, you know,

00:52:01.949 --> 00:52:06.537
if you have big orgies and everything
you held against you, if you spend

00:52:06.570 --> 00:52:11.236
your money on big parties. Oh, that
doesn't go. But you can buy art and

00:52:11.269 --> 00:52:17.217
give it to the university or the ST
well, everybody praises you for it.

00:52:17.250 --> 00:52:21.086
And do remember that many of the
museums in the country are funded by

00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:27.867
wealthy people. Um So, but they all
take on their own character. Every

00:52:27.900 --> 00:52:35.717
museum has its own direction. And our
directions are primarily ceramics,

00:52:35.750 --> 00:52:43.750
printing, latin, american art and
still american art. But right now that's

00:52:44.070 --> 00:52:48.517
a little bit on the low side

00:52:48.550 --> 00:52:54.247
to remember. We're located in a
strange place, phoenix. Uh metropolitan

00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:59.637
area has many millionaires. But still,
most of the millionaires have their

00:52:59.670 --> 00:53:04.807
initial home back in Wisconsin or
Illinois. And that's where they give, So

00:53:04.840 --> 00:53:09.876
you have to develop collectors too.
And we're doing that, but it's a slow

00:53:09.909 --> 00:53:14.416
process.

00:53:14.449 --> 00:53:18.597
Did you ever think when you came to
Arizona, you said you really didn't

00:53:18.630 --> 00:53:24.186
think you'd stay this long. What has
kept Well, number one, my wife loves

00:53:24.219 --> 00:53:30.986
Arizona. She really does. She wouldn't
live any place else. So if I wanted

00:53:31.019 --> 00:53:38.296
to leave, I would have to leave by
myself. I, I did love Montana and I do

00:53:38.329 --> 00:53:45.057
what I do love living on the ocean. So
those are factors. But I, and there

00:53:45.090 --> 00:53:51.776
were many times when I was ready to
leave issue when it was often a hard

00:53:51.809 --> 00:53:57.387
grind. Uh, I had a lot of energy in
those days. I'm absolutely amazed. It

00:53:57.420 --> 00:54:01.907
takes me three hours to get up and get
about in the morning. And I think

00:54:01.940 --> 00:54:07.376
just years ago, I had prepared four or
five lectures. I'd give lectures. I

00:54:07.409 --> 00:54:12.387
go out in the community. I gave over
3000 lectures in the community while

00:54:12.420 --> 00:54:20.420
I was here without getting paid for it
too. You know. Ah, the, but I

00:54:20.789 --> 00:54:26.307
really enjoyed the experience of being
here. I don't think I would enjoy

00:54:26.340 --> 00:54:31.657
it today. I liked the school when it
was small. When I got, when I knew

00:54:31.690 --> 00:54:37.206
most of the people that not only the
students, but the faculty and staff.

00:54:37.239 --> 00:54:41.477
Uh, now, you know, I make a telephone
call the university and I have this

00:54:41.510 --> 00:54:46.467
machine, press one, press two, press
three. It's dehumanized, but it was a

00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:51.106
very humanistic place when I was here,

00:54:51.139 --> 00:54:56.486
still go and visit the museum above
once every six weeks. So I see what

00:54:56.519 --> 00:55:02.126
shows on. There's a real problem.
Visiting director visiting his old

00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:07.997
haunts if he sees it. And I'll say
I'll use the word I, if I see something

00:55:08.030 --> 00:55:13.867
I like it's new. I say why in the hell
didn't I do it? If I see something

00:55:13.900 --> 00:55:18.646
that I didn't do or that that that I
wouldn't do that they're doing. I

00:55:18.679 --> 00:55:23.376
said I wouldn't do that. Well they're
nuts. So you never could be happy.

00:55:23.409 --> 00:55:29.506
It's best to stay away really. It is
for everybody's sake.

00:55:29.539 --> 00:55:32.376
Are there some things that you wanted
to do while you were here that you

00:55:32.409 --> 00:55:38.177
weren't able to do? Oh yes yes. I
wanted to initiate a larger travel

00:55:38.210 --> 00:55:43.236
program which is started it now
there's this very commonplace at the

00:55:43.269 --> 00:55:48.186
university but in my day we never
could get that started. I wanted to

00:55:48.219 --> 00:55:53.907
bring famous artists here to teach uh
either in the museum or in the arts

00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:58.316
school. It didn't happen. Those. I
still think there would be a good idea

00:55:58.349 --> 00:56:03.387
of visiting artists would be very very
fine. I would also like to see

00:56:03.420 --> 00:56:10.637
developed at A. S. U. And I there is a
grant out there ah Which could make

00:56:10.670 --> 00:56:17.836
this possible. I would like to see
develop a school of criticism. Students

00:56:17.869 --> 00:56:23.177
learning how to do literary art
criticism. I think this would be a

00:56:23.210 --> 00:56:28.537
tremendous achievement. And there's no
no place that really does that in a

00:56:28.570 --> 00:56:34.796
concise developed way that I would
like to see happen.

00:56:34.829 --> 00:56:42.117
I would also like to see the urinal
and the S. U. Art museum donated by

00:56:42.150 --> 00:56:46.657
somebody and say ah

00:56:46.690 --> 00:56:51.986
fountain Just the other day. Art
critics of America said the most

00:56:52.019 --> 00:56:58.037
significant artwork produced in the
20th century for significant. Not the

00:56:58.070 --> 00:57:05.066
best significant was the urinal that
Marcel Duchamp took out and put the

00:57:05.099 --> 00:57:12.126
name Fountain Inn and displayed this
whole data approach to art. And I

00:57:12.159 --> 00:57:18.467
wish that somebody would do the same
toilet at a S. U. Art museum. It

00:57:18.500 --> 00:57:22.477
sounds crazy but I think that would be
kind of fun.

00:57:22.510 --> 00:57:27.097
I I might, the thing is I don't know
if the present people would

00:57:27.130 --> 00:57:30.197
appreciate the idea.

00:57:30.230 --> 00:57:35.376
What about your own artwork? Oh yes I
worked very hard at it at the moment.

00:57:35.409 --> 00:57:40.997
I'm having a one man show at the new
Mrs Museum of Contemporary Arts

00:57:41.030 --> 00:57:46.456
which is an unusual show. It's not a
sales show half the show, my

00:57:46.489 --> 00:57:49.927
paintings and the other half of the
show, things that I have collected

00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:56.126
over the years. So that's very nice.
I'm also in the show in Scottsdale

00:57:56.159 --> 00:58:00.217
featuring the works of jules, Heller
jewels, Heller and his friends and

00:58:00.250 --> 00:58:05.206
I'm one of the friends I'm active when
I am. Well I haven't been well much

00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:09.336
of this year but when I am well I try
to put in about 40 to 50 hours a

00:58:09.369 --> 00:58:15.637
week painting and I love it very, very
much yeah. Is that something that

00:58:15.670 --> 00:58:23.670
you developed over the years? You know
I painted a lot even before I

00:58:23.920 --> 00:58:31.920
retired. Um I didn't have time. And
what would happen if I had a saturday

00:58:32.199 --> 00:58:38.197
free. I would come home on friday
night, go to shoot my little studio

00:58:38.230 --> 00:58:44.367
which is a box and paint all through
saturday night, all friday night, all

00:58:44.400 --> 00:58:51.006
day saturday into sunday. My paintings
well For a while my studio was four

00:58:51.039 --> 00:58:57.336
x 4 and then four x 4 I painted and
wrote 17 books, okay. And did my

00:58:57.369 --> 00:59:01.526
lectures and it was four x 4. I
painted like this, you know, arm boom,

00:59:01.559 --> 00:59:06.796
boom boom. And then my next studio was
actually a garage in my next home

00:59:06.829 --> 00:59:10.026
where I had all the room in the world,
but I couldn't get my arm out to

00:59:10.059 --> 00:59:15.026
paint. You know, it was very, very
difficult. So now I can get my arm out

00:59:15.059 --> 00:59:22.387
. I think I improve every month. I
enjoy it and I am one of the few people

00:59:22.420 --> 00:59:27.807
and the art field that can say that
all my expenses are taken care of by

00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:32.486
my sales. I sell so enough. I couldn't
make a living at it, but I, it

00:59:32.519 --> 00:59:38.586
doesn't cost the family anything for
me to exercise my peculiarities.

00:59:38.619 --> 00:59:46.619
How would you describe your art
passionate? A forceful direct? Ah often

00:59:47.530 --> 00:59:50.887
amusing

00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:56.816
it. Always painting primarily. Yes, I
will do other things. I recently

00:59:56.849 --> 01:00:01.287
took some classes in silk screen and
have been working in silk screen. I

01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:07.177
like to keep my options open, but I
really like painting very much. No

01:00:07.210 --> 01:00:12.126
ceramics. No, no, I've tried ceramics.
I'm horrible in ceramics.

01:00:12.159 --> 01:00:15.807
Absolutely horrible. I'm kindergarten
and my my six year old granddaughter

01:00:15.840 --> 01:00:22.276
is 10 times better than I am here. I
am one of ceramic

01:00:22.309 --> 01:00:28.017
acknowledge critics. Okay, collectors,
but no, I just don't have the feel

01:00:28.050 --> 01:00:32.276
for it. I don't have the balance for
it. I'm off balance. That's true.

01:00:32.309 --> 01:00:37.097
Where my paintings that's fine to be
off balance. But in ceramics you have

01:00:37.130 --> 01:00:41.197
to be in the balance and I can't I
can't achieve it. Maybe it's just as

01:00:41.230 --> 01:00:48.097
well. Uh I'm in my doctor's office
waiting for my appointment. The nurse

01:00:48.130 --> 01:00:52.017
announces that the doctor was called
away on an emergency and we would

01:00:52.050 --> 01:00:55.586
make new appointments and she came to
me and said, mr turk and the man

01:00:55.619 --> 01:01:00.347
next to me says, are you the Rudy turk
and trying to be modest. IsIS, well

01:01:00.380 --> 01:01:05.276
I'm Rudy turk and he says you're the
Rudy turk that collects pots. I said

01:01:05.309 --> 01:01:09.206
yes, He said, well since we can't have
our meeting, why don't you come to

01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:14.876
my house and see my parts and I said,
well, not now. He says yes right now.

01:01:14.909 --> 01:01:19.436
He says I have some wonderful roman
parts. I said, well okay, we went

01:01:19.469 --> 01:01:26.896
over to his house, this man was named
ever saw jim every cell and we went

01:01:26.929 --> 01:01:31.577
in the living room and he had some bad
roman pots. They weren't anything

01:01:31.610 --> 01:01:36.396
and they had been soldier owned by an
Israeli leader and he got taken and

01:01:36.429 --> 01:01:39.447
I wasn't impressed. He said you don't
like my pops. I said no, I really

01:01:39.480 --> 01:01:43.447
don't. He said well come let's have a
drink. And he says you and I can't

01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:46.666
have drinks. You both have prostate
problems. We can't drink. He says

01:01:46.699 --> 01:01:52.577
we'll have juice. In other words I was
annoying him. We went into the

01:01:52.610 --> 01:01:58.747
study or library and he had shelves
built in each shelf is a little box

01:01:58.780 --> 01:02:05.546
and each box was a Maria pot Maria was
the outside is was the outstanding

01:02:05.579 --> 01:02:10.816
indian powder in America ever? Okay.
There are all these wonderful

01:02:10.849 --> 01:02:16.896
wonderful pots. One after another. I
said Maria do you know Maria? I said

01:02:16.929 --> 01:02:22.006
yes I know Maria. He says really? You
haven't Maria tell your mortgage? I

01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:26.057
said yes when I was a little boy went
to the Chicago world's fair and we

01:02:26.090 --> 01:02:29.747
went to one state pavilion after
another. And we got to the new mexican

01:02:29.780 --> 01:02:33.947
pavilion and there was an old lady
making pots on her lap. And when we're

01:02:33.980 --> 01:02:38.387
ready to leave I cried, I made a big
fuss. And the old lady says let me

01:02:38.420 --> 01:02:42.477
keep them until you're ready to go.
And I sat on this lady's lap and we

01:02:42.510 --> 01:02:46.646
made pots and that's how I met Maria.
Oh you really like Maria says would

01:02:46.679 --> 01:02:50.137
you like these pots? He says I would
love to have these parts. He says

01:02:50.170 --> 01:02:54.836
that's u the university. I said yes.
He says you come tomorrow you can

01:02:54.869 --> 01:02:59.137
have them. I said I can't come
tomorrow, I have two classes tomorrow. Okay

01:02:59.170 --> 01:03:02.566
you don't want the parts you don't
want them. I said I'll be there. So I

01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:09.006
canceled two classes and we picked up
the parts. Uh huh. A week later I'm

01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:13.126
at my doctor's office. The doctor said
I'm sorry we couldn't meet last

01:03:13.159 --> 01:03:18.356
week. And I said well that happens. I
said but I met Mr ever so and he

01:03:18.389 --> 01:03:24.106
gave us his pottery collection. 35
Maria's super. Did he sign anything?

01:03:24.139 --> 01:03:27.256
Did he sign anything? I said yes he
signed something. He says that's good

01:03:27.289 --> 01:03:32.467
because he died this weekend.

01:03:32.500 --> 01:03:37.347
See sometimes the luck of the irish is
with you case occasionally

01:03:37.380 --> 01:03:39.646
survivors.

01:03:39.679 --> 01:03:44.227
And he found a home. A good home.

01:03:44.260 --> 01:03:48.017
Yes there at the new ceramic center.
Make a trip over there. It's a

01:03:48.050 --> 01:03:53.947
wonderful wonderful collection. And
eventually there's going to be a giant

01:03:53.980 --> 01:04:01.980
new art building on that corner at
Mill and University. And uh the ceramic

01:04:02.210 --> 01:04:05.836
is going to have a home there and the
print collection and the gallery

01:04:05.869 --> 01:04:09.497
store will be in the new facility

01:04:09.530 --> 01:04:14.927
and not industry. No it's not a very
impressive home for this collection

01:04:14.960 --> 01:04:19.856
right now. No.

01:04:19.889 --> 01:04:23.376
Well well that's a wonderful story. Do
you have any other great stories

01:04:23.409 --> 01:04:27.327
that you haven't told us? Well I
probably have but I can't pull it out

01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:30.356
just like that.

01:04:30.389 --> 01:04:34.327
Well I'll tell you one. I had a
telephone call from the president's office

01:04:34.360 --> 01:04:41.727
with and I think Troy has said we have
four people want to have lunch and

01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:46.137
they want to, we're going to have
lunch in your renaissance gallery and he

01:04:46.170 --> 01:04:49.526
said, so you can get it ready, we're
sending people over to prepare the

01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:54.427
food and everything and he says you
have lunch with him and entertain them.

01:04:54.460 --> 01:05:01.427
And so I had lunch with four Nobel
prize winners. That was fun, I can't

01:05:01.460 --> 01:05:06.456
remember. They were all scientists, so
that was quite fun.

01:05:06.489 --> 01:05:09.956
Yeah. Mhm

01:05:09.989 --> 01:05:15.927
I told you already. Mhm Yeah, well
you've certainly seen a lot of change

01:05:15.960 --> 01:05:21.907
at the university and in Arizona. Oh
yes, it was inevitable. I think

01:05:21.940 --> 01:05:25.546
though every generation will say, well
the changes are good, but I

01:05:25.579 --> 01:05:29.856
preferred in my day,

01:05:29.889 --> 01:05:33.566
did you ever think Arizona would
become the size and the growth that

01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:37.927
you're seeing here? No, not really,
no. I'm absolutely amazed what's

01:05:37.960 --> 01:05:42.697
happening and what is still happening.
I see all these buildings going up

01:05:42.730 --> 01:05:46.467
on campus. I don't think I would
recognize the east end of the campus

01:05:46.500 --> 01:05:50.456
right now. They're going to have to
issue new maps and give tours to old

01:05:50.489 --> 01:05:54.657
faculty members and staff members

01:05:54.690 --> 01:05:59.046
and then, you know, to extend the
university into phoenix and into

01:05:59.079 --> 01:06:03.816
Scottsdale. As a matter of fact, the
university is extending into

01:06:03.849 --> 01:06:08.736
Scottsdale where I had a studio for
five years before they tore it down

01:06:08.769 --> 01:06:13.117
for the university. Okay.

01:06:13.150 --> 01:06:21.150
Yeah, I had a studio at Los Arcos.

01:06:22.280 --> 01:06:27.347
Do you have any disappointment?

01:06:27.380 --> 01:06:32.336
I think so. Most people do have
disappointments. I don't know, there's

01:06:32.369 --> 01:06:37.546
nothing that aggravates me. Ah

01:06:37.579 --> 01:06:45.327
No, as I say I really wanted um more
professional people brought in in the

01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:50.126
arts and I think that might come

01:06:50.159 --> 01:06:56.106
as it is. I think arts is still a
little priority on the campus. The labs

01:06:56.139 --> 01:07:04.139
are much more important but eventually
they'll see the light. Okay,

01:07:05.500 --> 01:07:09.046
that's right, that's right.

01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:16.347
Do you have any that were your
students that have since done well in? Well

01:07:16.380 --> 01:07:24.380
, it's very interesting that
practically every ah our facilitator in the

01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:33.927
state at this time has been or was was
a student of mine, Shelly Cohen was

01:07:33.960 --> 01:07:41.960
the art administrator, Linea Eller,
the airport Larry Yanez the Tempe. Uh

01:07:43.260 --> 01:07:49.546
I sort of, I taught a course and it
was very interesting. I taught of

01:07:49.579 --> 01:07:56.907
course in musicology and another one
and history of museums and many of

01:07:56.940 --> 01:08:01.756
the art students wanted an easy
course. So they took my course and I

01:08:01.789 --> 01:08:07.177
really worked into hell. But they
learned about museums and many of them

01:08:07.210 --> 01:08:11.736
never thought they would wind up
working in the museum or gallery but half

01:08:11.769 --> 01:08:16.376
and I get grateful letters all the
time on this, which is kind of nice and

01:08:16.409 --> 01:08:22.196
I get to see these people who are
working and occasionally of Danielle or

01:08:22.229 --> 01:08:29.046
I have shown in her facility at the
airport and then recently this is very

01:08:29.079 --> 01:08:34.166
interesting is this little sidelight.
I received a telephone call and the

01:08:34.199 --> 01:08:39.446
fellow said, my name is Gary Bradley.
Do you remember me Gary Bradley and

01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:44.687
I've had thousands of students and I
said, I'm sorry, doesn't ring a bell.

01:08:44.720 --> 01:08:48.937
Said I was one of your students at the
University of Montana. And I said

01:08:48.970 --> 01:08:54.616
, oh, I remember you, you were tall
and you had a skinhead haircut and you

01:08:54.649 --> 01:09:00.737
dated a girl who played the piano. He
says that's right. And he said, well

01:09:00.770 --> 01:09:06.796
you got me interested in art and I
became a banker and a realtor and I've

01:09:06.829 --> 01:09:11.137
done pretty well in my life. But my
wife and I travel all over the world

01:09:11.170 --> 01:09:15.727
and we collect art and we owe it all
to you. And that felt really very,

01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:20.987
very good. You know, it's very good to
see that somebody who had, I never

01:09:21.020 --> 01:09:26.897
thought of as being perspective by our
collector was influenced by me.

01:09:26.930 --> 01:09:30.927
That's a good feeling to become an
artist that became a collector

01:09:30.960 --> 01:09:35.616
collector. And then there are some
people like Larry who was very casual

01:09:35.649 --> 01:09:39.126
about it, but it's one of the best
artists in the state can do everything

01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:44.067
. A great variety of things. I have a
few students who are painting and

01:09:44.100 --> 01:09:48.437
selling in new york. Tom. Holland is
considered one of the leading

01:09:48.470 --> 01:09:55.536
painters in California. I, as I said
earlier in our conversation what I

01:09:55.569 --> 01:10:01.086
cherish most about my stay in Arizona
is not building the new building,

01:10:01.119 --> 01:10:07.027
but people have enjoyed working with
people here and every place I've been.

01:10:07.060 --> 01:10:12.786
Um it's fun, nice to know people used
to be engaged with them and I'm

01:10:12.819 --> 01:10:20.027
sure you have known a lot of very
notable. Oh yes. Oh yes.

01:10:20.060 --> 01:10:24.446
Um Music Arizona sometimes gets the
reputation and people think of Arizona

01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:29.887
southwest art as being a cowboy art
and indian art. Well the thing is that

01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:34.937
you know it's what people thought it
for years and but still very popular

01:10:34.970 --> 01:10:41.036
go to main street and scott still
indian artists all over the place and I

01:10:41.069 --> 01:10:44.737
don't care for indian paintings or
sculpture quite frankly. But God their

01:10:44.770 --> 01:10:50.046
pots are beautiful, they do beautiful
beautiful pots.

01:10:50.079 --> 01:10:54.706
And uh there are some nice indian
pottery collections that I hope will

01:10:54.739 --> 01:10:59.527
come to A. S. U. Eventually. Um I
think it's very natural as a matter of

01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:03.397
fact if I were a director of the
phoenix art museum, I think my number one

01:11:03.430 --> 01:11:08.647
exhibition hall would always be cowboy
and indians uh you know that's what

01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:15.336
people expect to see and in the art
colony people have a tendency to

01:11:15.369 --> 01:11:22.357
downgrade the western artists. It's
unfair. A lot of it's not my dish itty

01:11:22.390 --> 01:11:29.126
but some of them are very very good,
extremely good. We have known uh some

01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:33.067
outstanding ones. Sometimes they're a
little bit off off center front

01:11:33.100 --> 01:11:38.427
shoulder the indian artist, fantastic
artists, one of the best ever seen.

01:11:38.460 --> 01:11:42.397
Um And I'm pleased to say that we were
friends and I wrote the first book

01:11:42.430 --> 01:11:50.126
on him. Okay so the he achieved a
tremendous breakthrough in indian arts.

01:11:50.159 --> 01:11:57.527
One that was recognized across the
country. So we have done a lot but yes

01:11:57.560 --> 01:12:01.847
, our heritage is the cowboy and
indian. That's alright. That's okay. It

01:12:01.880 --> 01:12:05.817
doesn't bother me.

01:12:05.850 --> 01:12:12.527
Right. one thing I always ask, yes,
what advice do you give to young

01:12:12.560 --> 01:12:18.517
people today that are trying to decide
college here.

01:12:18.550 --> 01:12:24.677
Okay. Number one, learn the basics. I
think this is very important. I

01:12:24.710 --> 01:12:28.237
always had people coming and saying
you know what, I want to be a curator

01:12:28.270 --> 01:12:32.637
or do I study, I said, do you know how
to hammer? Do you know how to solve

01:12:32.670 --> 01:12:37.336
? Do you know how to paint a wall? I
thought of the basics, they don't

01:12:37.369 --> 01:12:41.746
know and somebody has to do them. My
first gallery in Montana. I was

01:12:41.779 --> 01:12:46.557
everything. You know, he said you're
you're a man of you know for all

01:12:46.590 --> 01:12:49.637
seasons and all trades. Well it just
meant that there was no one else to

01:12:49.670 --> 01:12:56.616
do anything. You have to learn to do
everything. # two ICBA Little Daring.

01:12:56.649 --> 01:12:59.416
You know, you don't have to have
everybody agree with you and please be a

01:12:59.449 --> 01:13:04.946
little dairy if you believe in
something, go and express it. I I did that

01:13:04.979 --> 01:13:10.156
to a great extent. I wish I had done
it even more. Mhm. You know, people

01:13:10.189 --> 01:13:15.807
don't necessarily like new ideas.
Tradition is wonderful. It's like the

01:13:15.840 --> 01:13:19.826
Gothic cathedral, they always say it's
the bible and stone. People who

01:13:19.859 --> 01:13:24.857
were illiterate knew the bible, they
knew the pictures or the statues on

01:13:24.890 --> 01:13:29.897
the walls. That was tradition and that
tradition lasts a long time because

01:13:29.930 --> 01:13:33.836
people are comforted, comfortable with
tradition. Well we have various

01:13:33.869 --> 01:13:38.446
traditions right now. Impressionism is
very big in this country. One time

01:13:38.479 --> 01:13:42.307
impressionist paintings with yuck
today. It's very big because people have

01:13:42.340 --> 01:13:46.626
seen it. There's been shows all over
people are used to it. Well we have

01:13:46.659 --> 01:13:51.187
to recognize there are many traditions
we should be willing to accept all

01:13:51.220 --> 01:13:57.046
of them but also start our own. And
when I say start our own, be a member

01:13:57.079 --> 01:14:03.116
of that. Some years ago there was a
painting that appeared on the market

01:14:03.149 --> 01:14:08.836
in new york. It was a picture of steve
canyon. Remember steve Canyon comic

01:14:08.869 --> 01:14:14.696
strip, steve the hero, their airport,
the pilot is there against the

01:14:14.729 --> 01:14:18.597
backdrop, it's black and there's a a
spy hole and he said, I looked into

01:14:18.630 --> 01:14:23.366
the room, there was no one there that
same month in Detroit. A painter

01:14:23.399 --> 01:14:27.347
painted the same subject. They did not
know each other and a lady in san

01:14:27.380 --> 01:14:32.706
Francisco did a rug with the same
motif. The ideas are in the air there

01:14:32.739 --> 01:14:38.546
there for everybody and you think that
your unique but no the ideas are in

01:14:38.579 --> 01:14:44.267
the air and that's how new traditions
get started. Be daring. So

01:14:44.300 --> 01:14:48.107
fundamentals and then be daring.

01:14:48.140 --> 01:14:51.027
That's good advice.

01:14:51.060 --> 01:14:55.967
Is there anything that I didn't ask
you about today. I can't think

01:14:56.000 --> 01:15:01.206
that I should have asked you know, I
think that will do for the thank you.

01:15:01.239 --> 01:15:07.006
Thank you be there. It's very
interesting.

01:15:07.039 --> 01:15:13.307
We have something to add to our
archives.

01:15:13.340 --> 01:15:20.256
Yeah early in my second year at A. S.
U. I was approached by one of the

01:15:20.289 --> 01:15:28.289
producers at Katie to do a program ah
16 week program. And I thought this

01:15:29.840 --> 01:15:35.237
is a wonderful opportunity and I love
to ham it up and we decided we would

01:15:35.270 --> 01:15:40.036
call the show the gallery and we would
use things from the S. U. Art

01:15:40.069 --> 01:15:45.527
collection. Unfortunately every time
there was a show the paintings from

01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:49.237
the collection had to be moved to a
big warehouse building where they did

01:15:49.270 --> 01:15:56.557
the photography. And then they
arranged these in a sort of semi circle.

01:15:56.590 --> 01:16:00.097
And then they put number one number
two number three number four on the

01:16:00.130 --> 01:16:03.607
floor. And I was supposed to talk
about this one for 15 seconds and that

01:16:03.640 --> 01:16:08.786
one for three minutes and so forth and
so on. Well this was extremely

01:16:08.819 --> 01:16:14.656
interesting. And I can remember the
first show. Uh I went to the first

01:16:14.689 --> 01:16:19.086
thing was a large metal sculpture ape
like figure. And I had no trouble

01:16:19.119 --> 01:16:23.637
with it. And then I went to this very
large painting, the prize of the S.

01:16:23.670 --> 01:16:28.317
U. Art collection. And I could not
remember the name of the artist.

01:16:28.350 --> 01:16:33.027
Absolutely could not. And I said this
is a painting of american wildlife

01:16:33.060 --> 01:16:38.156
by the great american naturalist. The
man who every school child studies

01:16:38.189 --> 01:16:43.296
when he wants to learn about american
birds and flora and fauna. I just

01:16:43.329 --> 01:16:49.086
went out and tried to read the Audubon
and I could not remember Audubon

01:16:49.119 --> 01:16:57.119
for the love of money. Oh God! Then
more over. I did not realize that

01:16:57.430 --> 01:17:00.876
there were certain words in the
english language that I had mispronounced

01:17:00.909 --> 01:17:06.166
over the years. And I got home and I
found out that you know, uh Every

01:17:06.199 --> 01:17:10.977
everything that I did was wrong. I
came, I said before I left, Oh, this is

01:17:11.010 --> 01:17:14.387
gonna be horrible. And my wife's since
she saw me, she said it was

01:17:14.420 --> 01:17:19.536
horrible. It really was horrible. But
we went 16 weeks on this on this

01:17:19.569 --> 01:17:24.696
program. In the midst of this 16
weeks, I was an automobile accident and

01:17:24.729 --> 01:17:29.626
broke a whole mess of ribs and they
had to put me in a sort of iron vest

01:17:29.659 --> 01:17:36.147
and all of a sudden Rudy turk. The
slim director appeared on the gallery

01:17:36.180 --> 01:17:43.467
became huge. We're gonna feel what the
hell happened. Uh, it was or I

01:17:43.500 --> 01:17:49.166
interviewed Don Schomburg the potter
and I, he became mute on me. I'd say

01:17:49.199 --> 01:17:54.597
don It's good to see you here. Yes,
it's good. Don could you tell us

01:17:54.630 --> 01:18:00.347
something about your work? Well, maybe
well done. What kind of work do you

01:18:00.380 --> 01:18:05.156
do? Just general parts. And I couldn't
get him to say, oh, I couldn't get

01:18:05.189 --> 01:18:10.227
him to see a damn thing. Uh, I I
thought the whole program and the whole

01:18:10.260 --> 01:18:14.387
thing was a disaster. And I think bob
Ellis agreed with me because they

01:18:14.420 --> 01:18:22.420
were all erased. There's no history of
Rudy Turks gallery at issue. They

01:18:22.560 --> 01:18:27.756
were all done live on the spot. Yes,

01:18:27.789 --> 01:18:31.717
but they but they they were they were
funny. Something went wrong every

01:18:31.750 --> 01:18:36.656
single time.

01:18:36.689 --> 01:18:41.296
Too bad. We don't have copies.

01:18:41.329 --> 01:18:46.296
But I still think that whenever I see
an ottoman, I think, oh God, I

01:18:46.329 --> 01:18:50.586
couldn't remember audio. I'm standing
there, this great, great american

01:18:50.619 --> 01:18:57.586
naturalist scientist whose name is a
byword for naturalism.

01:18:57.619 --> 01:19:03.586
Mhm. Whenever you see bob Alice, you
think about that show

01:19:03.619 --> 01:19:05.619
Okay.