this is carol to Cosmo. We're conducting a living history video interview
today with Leon Shell at the Arizona State University for the Arizona
State University retirees association. Today is Friday,
19, 2007. And we're with Leon Shell at the Arizona a issue community
services building on curry road
to begin with. We're just going to let our interviewers little bit know
about your early life. Could you tell us where you were going and raised?
Yes, I was born in Ohio. Uh, I have a twin brother and both my brother and
I, I went to school from 2nd grade on with our father being the principal.
So we learned early on uh, kind of to set the example. But one thing I
decided before I graduated that I wanted to go into some form of education
from all these years with my father being a principal and superintendent
of schools. But the one thing I didn't want to do was to go into
administration because I saw my father would get up in the morning in the
winter and check the roads for ice. Wouldn't take our vacations until he
hired all the teachers in this summer weekends. He was working nights, he
was working. So that's how I ended up in the administration. Finally, I
guess where did you?
Well we started out at Bowling Green State University and then moved to,
we went out to play baseball actually one summer in Grand junction
colorado loved it. And but we started out at Bowling Green and then we
went back to a junior college Mesa Junior college. But from there we went
to University of colorado where I where we finished our degrees and from
there I did my master's and doctorate work at the University of Northern
colorado and Greeley. This makes the junior college, was that in Ohio now
excuse me, that was in Grand Junction colorado, That's where I met my wife
actually. So that was fortuitous that I got there when you say you you and
your brother, my brother and I Yes, uh huh When did you come to Asia? I
came to the issue in 1967, August of 67. I had been a schoolteacher, math
science teacher coach, counselor psychologist. And I was at one time in
the Glendale school district at Sunny slope high school but I was on the
campus with another friend and I had interviewed for a position in ed
psych and counseling and I was already, I was in California's school
psychologist. But my friend and I were interested in coming to Arizona
State University, starting up a learning diagnostic clinic learning
disabilities. But after the interview and I felt pretty good about the
interview and I was interviewing for the following year. I I'm I'm in the
student union and I meet George ham. Now George hamm is our dean of
students at the time and I'm with this one friend of mine who knew him and
we got to talking and my friend kind of gave dr hand my background and he
said well I've been looking for a dean of men all this last year, would
you be interested in applying?
Really surprised me because I had gone through college and I never worked
at a college and I said well you know that's very nice of you but no I
don't think so, I I don't think I'm interested. So over the lunch hour I
called my wife and she was staying at a place where near where we used to
live uh oh near Glenwood Avenue or Glendale Avenue. And she got all
excited. She said you know aren't you going to even check into it? So I
called back and so I did tell him that I would interview, we went back to
California and I was going to start my school psychologist position again
for the second year. And I got this telegram to come to interview that
issue. So I interviewed Along the short of it, I got the position, I was
age 30 and I guess I was the right place at the right time here. But I had
a chance to meet dr ham. And uh to this day we're still friends. He later
became, well he became vice president for student affairs. Then he went to
University of texas at Tyler is president of the university, who is the
president of the issue. Homer Durham was homer would get around to all the
residents halls, which impressed me right away here is the president going
to the residence halls meeting with students and quite a fine gentleman.
Uh but he was present at the time that the campus Number one, we didn't
have a mall that extended to the north of the fountain. Ah and that was
much later. So there was a street there. We didn't have a student rec
center, we didn't have a student services building. We did have an old
Goodman Stadium, which was later became a lot of the sites for some of our
student protesters.
We didn't have a university activity center and we had a danforth chapel
that sat right in the middle of the campus. That was used frequently by a
number of students and marriages and whatever,
what exactly does the dean of students do. Uh well, first of all, I really
felt fortunate I didn't become dean of students until 1972. I I replaced
the former dean of men. But for me, I view it viewed it really is an ideal
job. I had the contacts with faculty with students. It was a nice balance
between administration and all the other faculty student contacts and but
as to what he did or she did well, I need to digress a moment. The first
year I was there dr hamm changed the titles of Dina Man and Dina Women,
two other titles because at that point, if you were a woman, you would go
on to the Dean of Women's side and Katherine Nichols was our Dean of women.
And if you were a man, you would go on in the same building in Matthew's
Center, you would go on the men's side. So on the men's side you had men's
conduct, you had fraternities, you had men's academic honorary. Um, and
actually back then they had associated men students on the women's side.
You had women students conduct women's academic honorary sororities. Um,
and um, all these women's academic honorary. So that got changed my first
year there, which was good because we were not integrated, but it used to
be, we had a men's honorary called Blue Key Carnival, for example, that no
longer exists, but they used to put on a carnival every, every spring over
over an old man park. Uh, Women's honorary is, we had a very popular
honorary called Angel Flight. Well, with the Educational Act amendments of
97 or 1972 no longer did we have organizations just for men or for women.
So these academic honorees were opened up. So that's the first thing that
happened when I came in and um, there were a number of changes right away
because with a change too, a more integrated office, we had a lot of
opportunity to, there was a lot of opportunity to develop programs and so
I felt very fortunate ah to be a part of a lot of the development here.
But the Back to the dean of students, what he did, one of my major
responsibilities of student conduct. So I worked with student conduct for
probably 26 years. Uh, and somewhat people might view that as a negative,
that was a real positive. I I love doing that because it fit into my
background, my previous teaching and counseling background and I met a
number of students that I wouldn't have otherwise gotten to know through
student conduct and so I was in a position of being of help to them. But
the other part of what the dean of students did was one of my major
responsibilities was Associated Students And I think I attended student
Senate meetings and executive council meetings for about 26 years and to
being being involved with the associated students was a real plus it was a
nice change of pace for me, you meet all kinds of students, we had some of
the most outstanding students whenever it could hope for and to look back
now at what some of those students that were in associated students and
other student organizations, What they did is really a good feeling, but
another responsibility. We had student organizations under us. So we had
an opportunity to develop along with our admissions office. Some of the
student paraprofessional programs, admissions have devil's advocates. Well
, we developed what was called the reach staff students, helping other
students become involved in campus life. We had a student foundation that
was kind of a fundraising organization, public relations organization. Um
, early on we developed the area called disabled student resources and
that was under my jurisdiction.
We started with one person in Matthew's centre with our dis disability
resources center. Then we hired a wheelchair repairman and to this day now
, I mean we have one of the better to say disability resources programs
probably in the country, but other responsibilities. Well the one I I
really enjoyed the most was the contact all the student organizations
associated students but responsibility for the counseling service, career
services. We started up what was called the educational ah support program
and we had a gentleman, an african american gentleman by the name of
Bernie Jackson. Every campus should have a Bernie Jackson. Bernie was this
great big, huge person, had a tremendous smile and he had a great big bear
hug for about all of his friends. So he became friends with faculty and
students and um, he had a very calming influence if well he never had a
bad day, but he headed up our tutorial support program called educational
support programs. So that was another program early on that was developed
later on programs, developed
our reentry student programs, programs for women Hispanic mother daughter
program, International students was under that program, also under the
Dean of Students office. So we had a variety, a diversity of programs. We
had an assistant being that really helped us develop our diversity
programs. These
were the programs that we had an under representation of ethnic minority
students really, at the campus and that was one of the main issues, I
think For higher education during the 70s, the 80s still a little bit. And
we've made really a lot of progress the university has in, in those
particular programs. But One of the things that took a lot of her time
during the 70's was the
reaction to our movement to Vietnam. Um, the 70s. It was really a period
of activism. Student activism. We had the Vietnam war going on. We had
students, the momentum was building from about 1967 on and we had the mall
responsibility. So we had all kinds of tables literature on the mall. But
for a period of two or three years we were having protests and marches
regarding the reaction to the Vietnam war. And whereas we had some
students who were really involved from the start, a number of other
students really became involved. So, um, Prior to 1970, we would have
protests
actually. We had some marches through the streets bordering the campus.
And uh, what really capped off all the protests was in 19
1970, 1970. Ah President Nixon indicated we were going into cambodia that
one event happened. The second event that happened then there were four
student deaths at Kent State University over the protests. That was the
second event. And then later in the week, Jackson State University, two
students died uh, in, in protests and what was happening on our campus. We
had a number of protests to begin with. But there were particular volatile
periods during this time, the right after the Kent state killings, we had
a big rally, they're the fountain and we had a speaker's podium and we had
a professor that stood up and called for a shutdown of the university.
And that was very surprising. And we must have had probably or at least
1000 individuals out there that evening when it called for a shutdown. We
had our student student body president that then got up on the podium and
asked whoever was there, all the students, you know, to keep the calm to
keep the peace. And so we knew the next day that we were going to have all
kinds of chaos and protesting and whatever. And I need to digress here and
talk about one individual. We had a campus police chief by name of john
Duffy and john would be out on them almost all the days and a lot of his
campus police were out out there too because we would have protests and uh
we were aware that some universities have been shut down already. So there
was a lot of volatility in the air, but we were really getting ready for
the next day and john Duffy would often talk to a lot of the protesters,
became friends with the protesters and I remember watching him several
occasions, some of the major protesters would come up to him and say john
you know, uh my wife just had a baby. Are you gonna come out and see the
baby or you haven't been out to lunch with us lately? So john had that
kind of relationship and he had a very calming effect. And prior to the
major demonstrations are marched through the streets, whether it be
through Apache, boulevard or rural or mill avenue, we would get together
with john talked with the protesters, go over the parameters. Well, we
weren't prepared for the next day after the one evening where the
professor called for a shutdown at the university and by this time some
universities have been shut down already and we were getting their
students coming to Arizona because their universities were shut down. Well
, we had what was called the flagpole incident and that flagpole is no
longer there, but it used to be a visitor's parking lot and there was a
bed of flowers surrounding the flagpole. We must have had 3000 Individuals
assembled around that 3-4,000 assembled around that flagpole and the
governor at the time had proclaimed that there would be no lowering of the
flag to half mast. And so there was john Duffy and and he knew a lot of
these protesters and it was getting very volatile and john put his job on
the line and lowered the flag to half mast and that really averted a major
, a bit of disruption, perhaps violence. We learned later that the
National Guard was in the armory right right next to Sun Devil Stadium.
The old armory. We hadn't known that at all, would have probably been a
little more anxious had we known that? Because you always try to keep the
off campus police off the campus when you have these things to let your
own police force deal with it and students affairs deal with it. But That
was one of the most volatile times that I, that I can remember in, in the
70s. But following that then we had Some of the major protesters at the
Democratic Convention in Chicago in 1968. They became known as the Chicago
seven. We had jerry Rubin, um, Tom Hayden, a number of these other major
figures come on our campus and they were holding a rally in Old Goodman
Stadium and this was called the hard hat rally because we had all these
construction workers that had been working on buildings that had real
strong feelings, you know about protesters. We had the,
a number of individuals training to be pilots out at Williams Air Force
base. They all came together on a sunday afternoon. And uh, so what you
had and, and we had the highway, the Highway Patrolman, they were lining
both
both lines. I mean the goal lines, We must have had 50 75 highway
patrolman there, Our staff, student affairs staff, all of them were out
there and we had our residence hall staff pretty well split up into teams
and what we had, we had a number of protesters with the flags, so to the
bottoms of their pants out there, we had the loudspeaker and these
speakers tom Hayden and jerry Rubin that were well, well known. And
essentially, we had the hard hats and we had the ones coming out from
Williams Air Force base chasing these protesters around the field and our
staff dr hamm our advice actually, he was dean of students said, uh, he
was out there. I was out there, we had a residence hall staff out there
and we were running around trying to keep these groups from convening and
intervening and we didn't have any major injuries, most of all of us, what
does this in our job description? Because we had never done this before
trying to intervene. But There were two times that were probably the most
volatile during the 70s. Um, And well, and we did have some volatile times
during the Iran hostage situation 79, but we were able to get through
those those times without a, without damage to property, without personal
injury. And uh, all considered, we felt pretty good that we came through
much better than a number of the other campuses, but There were some other
Eras, other phenomena during the 70s. I mentioned the Iranian hostage
situation that went on a couple of years and we had an area called the
West Hall lawn that was between Wilson Hall and Matthews Center where,
well Matthew's Center was where our dean of students office was and also
the vice president for student affairs before we moved but would have a
number of demonstrations out there. Most of the demonstrations and
protests regarding the Iran situation occurred on West Hall line. But we
got through those. But then we had the movements with our black students
are minority student coalitions and this was pretty much in response to an
under representation of ethnic minority students in higher education is
happening all throughout the country. But we had the black student union
in the early 70s, they formed, they were very active. Then following that
we had the hispanic students and that group formed. They were very, very
active. And then we had the native american students. They had several
speakers come on campus. One was Russell means that was the head of ames
american indian movement. So we had all of this student activism Taking
place in the 70s. And that there were some good results from, you know,
some of the
some of these activities by our minority student coalitions because later
on a number of programs formed that were responding to the needs of member
of tutorial programs. But the 70s were they were, those were the years,
they were exciting, interesting. That's really where, you know, when I
come into this job and I go through all of that. And uh we had,
fortunately we had a campus police director, john Duffy that had the kind
of relationship with these protesters that he did. Our vice president who
became vice president fires George ham. He, yeah, who was involved in a
lot of our strategies and dealing with these. And but it was a difficult
period for the, for the campus during that year but
we wanted no property damage. We wanted no injury. We want to know, shut
down at the university and all of those things. Well, we had some trampled
flowerbeds, you know, during the uh, that one incident where john Duffy
lowered the flag to half mast. But that was an educational period for us.
You are staff were out on the mall probably
In the spring maybe from seven o'clock till eight or 9:00 at night.
Usually these protests would end up over at old main park, which was
symbolic as we still had ROTC then but exciting times.
Um what did you what did you what did you want to then? After Student
Affairs? Well, I became dean of students in 1972 and I had faculty ranks
so I would teach and serve on graduate committees but dr ham then became
vice president. Student Affairs. So when I became dean of Students, we we
moved from Matthew's Center and we moved in, well there was before we
moved into our student services building that hadn't been built yet. We
were over in the student union in the lower level. But I think what was
taking place a lot after that time was really a lot of program development
programs we now have today that are still in existence and
several interesting
and several interesting things regarding our getting a student service
building and a student recreation center. These became really highlights
for for student affairs and the student recreation center. The student
services building happened when we had a vice president by name of dr
Asher Doctor Betty Asher and we had the student body officers and myself
and several others went to visit campuses to look at what were some of the
really good student recreation centers in the country. So we took our
student officers, two University Cal Berkeley to UCLA where they had the
john wooden recreation center and um also to university Oregon. And we
were very impressed with U. C. L. A. Their recreation center. So we came
back and we said we have to get this architect that designed that facility
because the use of color and the use of glass and openness really
impressed us. And at the time we had wanted a student rec center for a
long time but we we weren't making much progress and our intramural club
sports director keith Jacobson heard the University of Arizona was going
to the border regions for a proposal to have a student rec center. Well he
I called myself and I checked with our vice president of student affairs
and through student government, they got a referendum ready and we got in
at the same time that university Arizona did for the rec center. And uh so
that got through and then we had a committee to select the people of the
architects to do this. And keith Jacobson gave me a call and said they're
making decision today but they're selecting a different architect than the
one that did the john wooden rec rec center. And his name was David brody.
And so I called Dr Asher a vice president who called the president and we
ended up with the right with the architect that we needed. They just did a
splendid job. And anybody that's seen that student rec center is you know
it's it's just not used by students who used by staff for receptions.
Everything else, the student services building that happened while Dr
Asher was was here and she really led the initiative for for us to get
that. So we went back to several campuses to take a look at their student
services building. One was Bowling street, Bowling green State University
where I started out and it was they had a lot of open space and a lot of
glass. It probably was not energy efficient but we went there, I went to
Michigan state and then the University of Miami and Ohio, so various ones
of us gave recommendations and there were a number of people that were
involved in getting a new student services building. But those two
buildings getting completed, I think that was the highlight for a number
of us in in student affairs. And Um I I should add I worked under three
vice presidents. The first was George ham who hired me and who was a
mentor and had really great visions, always saw the larger picture ended
up in universe texas at
Tyler is president, the second vice president, Dr Betty Asher and she made
a number of contributions to student affairs. She was here during the
building of those two buildings, student rec center and student student
services building. And the third vice president worked for was dr
Wilkinson, Christine Wilkinson and She, well the other two became
presidents and other universities. Uh Dr Wilkinson
could have been president at any number of major universities from my
viewpoint. But um I served under her for a number of years and in terms of
a person that could consume volumes of work, Do three jobs at one time
that that was Christine and I think she would have taken a presidency
someplace else had she not had the ties to her family here in Arizona, but
today I think she's doing three jobs, she's a director of alumni
association, she's senior vice president and she's also the secretary to
the board. So I felt that I was very, very fortunate and uh working for
these people because all three had vision. All three added immeasurably to
what we have today in student affairs. All through, all three were
different and brought their own skills and talents, you know, to the
position. I also had the pleasure to work for six different presidents and
each added ah considerably to where we are today. I haven't served under,
I never served under President Crow, but I understand that he's taking
things to a new level. Who's your friend, who was your favorite? Ah you
know, I I would have to say laddie court um laddie,
I think Larry was a reminder to most of us um of how you treat people and
how you make people feel their values. Um and I saw him on the mall a
number of times. First of all, he never forgot a name and uh I I think the
groundskeepers or the landscapers or custodial people, they was high on
his priority scale as you know, the top people and he had a sense of calm
about him. I, we had some student protests in the student union and with
our black student union And so he convened the group in one room and I
went up to join them because that was one of my responsibilities, student
conduct and I walked in there and by the time I got there, I think he
already had the trust level of all these african american students and
there was a sense of calm and so on. A number of measures, we had a number
of really good presence. But on a number of any measures he was the one
that it was really a good reminder I think to all of us about humanity and
and that. So what classes did you take? Um I taught in the higher
education um department in the college education and the counseling
psychology. My faculty rank was counseling psychology and I had come here
earlier actually interviewing for a position to be a faculty member and
then perhaps on the side startup and learning diagnostic clinic. And I'm
glad that one didn't work out. I'm glad it did go to the direction that
went. But I taught some student personal courses um
in higher education, constant psychology courses and I enjoyed the
teaching but I might teach one course a semester or one course a year and
I would serve on doctoral and master's committees working with master and
doctoral candidates. I I did enjoy that too. Did you ever get involved in
any research? Uh No not not specifically. I I did a research
my the first vice president dr hamm was he was With a group of probably 20
vice presidents throughout the United States and the one year that the
vice president's came to a sus campus. I in advance. I put together a a
survey of all the all the major issues in student affairs that would
affect vice president for student affairs. And I had about probably a 200
question questionnaire I sent out to these vice presidents. They sent the
vice president's there results back to me. I put it in a report, final
report. So by the time they got here they had the answers to a lot of the
things that get discussed only they could discuss them in more detail and
go over the whys and wherefores and that. But that was the actually the
most research I did. I frankly I felt my main job was full time
administration and being a dean of students and later on a social vice
president, student Affairs and um I would go to all the professional
conferences but I thought that was my main job and I didn't take much time
on research other than that. Is there a special event that stands out?
I think other special events kind of relate to associated students.
It was really kind of like a family up there. You would walk up there and
you didn't only have the student body office of the president But you had
around 80 different student positions. Many of them were volunteer. So
you'd walk up in the Associated students offices or you go to a student
senate meter executive committee meeting and first of all there's a nice
balance to what I did, but that's what I really enjoyed doing. And the
second thing I enjoyed at the start of the year, we would have retreats at
Tana Zona and that was really, I really enjoyed those because you get to
know all the students are student foundation went there, our leadership
scholarship recipients of program I was part of at the start they went
there because she had the associated students and it was a great
experience for everybody there. And I would try to, by the time I got back
I would try to have memorized the names sometimes I wouldn't always, but
it's always fun to meet someone on the mall and be able to come by their
first name. But I remember those treats retreats and I remember all the
outstanding students and uh student government that, that I worked with
and what what really stands out is to look back, look now as to what they
have accomplished. I mean it was wasn't only associated students but we
worked with student organizations and we had any number of groups that we
got to know. So that's why I kind of considered, you know, dean of
students position is an ideal job because you've met and worked with
faculty met with students. You can be mentors that stood out. Um, I think
some of the early developments
in student programming, you know, that that stands out 11 in particular
was our disability resources center where we started with one person and
it's ready developed today and I think overall, first of all I had just a
outstanding staff to work with and what what happened was a result of
students being involved because students are involved in most of the
planning along with the staff. But well I guess the other thing that
really stands out is seeing the completion of the student rec center and
seeing seeing the completion of the student services building and a
student rec center that wouldn't have happened
without this one person keith Jacobson that was working there and alerted
to the fact that university Arizona was going forward to the regions and
then he alerted us to the fact that we weren't going to get the architect
we got. Um but those are the things that kind of stand out in my, in my
memory, is there a special person that you remember?
Yeah,
well there there are several
George hamm was the one that hired me and he was really my mentor. Uh I
still keep up with him today, he set the Framework the groundwork for what
happened in student affairs back in the early 70s. Um another person was
uh well I mentioned earlier was Bernie Jackson um uh if anyone wanted to
have a good day, just go up and visit with Bernie and I would see people
from the College of Education uh come over to talk with Bernie, I mean
faculty just just to have a good day and he had that, that kind of
presence, he was a minister also on the side. So like I said, everybody
would need a Bernie Jackson on campus. Then we had a consulate service
director, his name is Tom cummings and well neither Tom nor Bernie are
still living but tom if we're ever interviewing candidates major positions
, I would always have the candidate go over and meet with Tom cummings
because his insights and his understanding of life and his ability to put
things into perspective. I, I always really admired as a matter of fact,
Each, each year when he was director of contact service, he was there
about 10 years as a director, Probably 10% of our students that come in to
see counselors probably have some degree of depression in all of those
years and we would do follow up, uh there was never one students that ever
took his or her own life and one of the more difficult jobs but kind of
rewarding jobs I had,
I would notify parents when their son or daughter had died and uh we
worked with our campus ministry, we had campus interfaith council and
would make contact with the parents, we would meet them at the airport, we
would have a car for them, we would put them up at a holiday inn, we would
take them over to the student health service. If well first of all the
parents would come on campus and in shock and a total big campus and take
him over to the student health service if any medication was needed and
take care of all the details and then we would align our campus ministers
regarding the religious faith up with him. So by the time they left campus
not that they'd ever have closure, they at least felt that um someone
cared you know about about their son and we had a lot of the services in
Danforth Chapel and some of the stained glass windows that are there today
were donated by my parents. Um Whereas that was one of the more difficult
jobs. That was one of the probably purist purest helping relationships
probably when one could have. So ah but I took pride in uh in our the
university of being able to offer that to two parents. Do you lose many
students or not? Yes. Uh I don't know what it is today or this this year
last year but we would have 02-4 students that would die. I mean with a
large campus such as we are I mean We would take on all the problems of
the city because I mean we're over 50,000 now. But yes out of that
population we would use lose some. We would always be worried there during
final test periods because students can really be stressed out during that
time. And that was another ah offering that are counseling service was was
able to provide.
I lost track. Um
Department self excellent. Well thank you. Is there a notable achievement
?
The student? Right. Let me go back and ask you a question about the
student. Right um
Is that where your office is located? The office now is located in our
student services building? And we were in Matthews Center probably for 15
years earlier. Yes. In an overview of the university, what you believe is
the most interesting achievement? Well, a what we have to think a moment,
but I I think one of them major achievements is here, the largest
university in the country or at least multi campus.
Uh We've increased our diversity, ethnic diversity many times are
significantly with faculty and students. We've increased the quality of
our students. Ah We take a look at our medallion merit awards and it's
Tremendously escalated. I think we're number four or 5 in the country in
terms of having the most most national merit awardees. And I read on the
inside, I get the insight Now weekly we surpassed some of the major ivy
league schools.
I I think that's when we reached research one status. So we've become the
largest but we haven't sacrificed or we haven't seen a diminishing of the
quality of our students. In fact the quality has increased and the
diversity has increased. I think that's a that's a major major achievement.
Remember form the question since you have three campuses and going to have
four campuses. Now. How did you deal with the student life issues that you
had just having one on campus? How do you, how did you don't bring that
out to the other campuses? Well at the time? And I I should mention I was
one of the, one of my satisfactions obviously was going to to other
campuses during the early periods or transitional periods, but we had
through our vice president of student affairs, the coordination was done
through the vice president of student affairs out to the three campuses
and when I went out to A S. U. West, it was a transitional period for
student affairs. I spent about one year there. Um That was a great
experience for me, I I really enjoyed it a lot of satisfaction and then I
had the opportunity to go to what was then known as A S. U. East Williams
Air Force Base, it's now known as the polytechnic campus and I was there
heading up student affairs and and a part of the startup of student
affairs there, but all those other two campuses, there was a coordination
back to the main campus through and dr Wilkinson was the vice president
then, so um we were always in alignment, you know, with what the goals
were, what the missions were. Uh we had a different student clientele at
each of these campuses, but Mhm I don't think there was anything lost in
the process of With these other two campuses, at least in student affairs.
Were there any problems that you encountered during your career?
You know, one of the large problems in the 60s or 70s, the 80s and 90's
was under representation of our ethnic minority students, not just that,
but faculty staff. And uh we went through some trying periods back in the
70s. When I mentioned the some of the ethnic minority movements, these
different coalitions formed,
they were trying to address some of their concerns. It might be well not
just under representation, but financial aids employment. And I think a
number of good things came out of that um because a number of programs
were implemented to respond to those particular interests and needs and
The minority student coalition. Well, one thing our dean of students
office was doing early on through a doctor carter, who then was her
assistant dean, later became dean of Students. We formulated a number of
diversity programs, cultural diversity programs and worked with the
minority student coalitions. I think that was one thing that good that
came out of it. We had a campus environment team that addressed these
issues campus-wide and that was a really plus. But I think the end result
is through these coalitions.
I think progress was made a lot faster than it might have been made
otherwise and it needed to be made because there was under representation
in a number of areas. And I haven't seen the recent statistics, but I know
the university has really gained substantially in the number of ethnic
minority student enrollees, uh, and faculty hires and staff hires, not
just in, but in some of the higher level positions. And that's healthy for
a university. And, and I'm sure the university feels good about that, but
that was one of the major issues
that that we dealt with. And I think we dealt with it fair fairly well of
all of your accomplishments, which has given you the most satisfaction.
You know, I I think to see, um, the quality of students that have come out
of the university here, uh, let me give you an example of our career
services.
They, they have a number of career fairs yearly, they have a number of
interviewers. Major corporations that come here. We are a prime recruiting
source for the major, uh, corporations, companies, whether it's general
dynamics, whether it's um, Packard, whether it's Proctor and Gamble, they
conduct over Probably over 1700, well, probably over 1700 employers come
on our campus yearly to interview. There are students and I think that's
some indication of the quality of the students we have here. But one of my
, I guess major satisfactions is too, have seen all of these students come
through and then, uh, see how, how well they've done and, you know, I'm
not singling out any students, but we've had student body presidents,
Outstanding student body officers, Outstanding student organizations. I'll
name one in particular. We have a hispanic business student association dr
Lucia Levi's has been their advisor
that has produced such positive employment experiences for the students
just being a part of that. But we've had so many advisers on the campus
that had been advisory and mentors to these student organizations and that
is that's a really really a large plus for our our students to be able to
be associated with that. What's your worst memory?
You know, I I can't really think of a worse memory, you know, commented
earlier one of my difficult more difficult tasks, but that was ultimately
rewarding. But I I feel I've been fortunate to have an ideal position
where I was able to call upon my earlier experiences and not everybody has
the opportunity to interact with students and student groups and
leadership groups and see the development take place.
How did you change from your arrival until you retired?
Uh Well the obvious thing is uh buildings and we have a university
activity center, it's Wells Fargo Arena now. Um I get on campus from time
to time, we're just proceeding at a very rapid pace.
I I think to become the economic engine for Arizona, what's happening on
on our campus. Um Obviously the different campuses, we have an A. S. U.
West, we have a downtown campus now. We have the A. S. U. East which is
now the polytechnic campus um To see the immense growth that's come here
without sacrificing quality. I I think that's very remarkable.
What kind of advice would you give young people in choosing their college
and their career?
Uh I think first of all go to the web pages of these universities that are
interested in. There is so much information on the web pages. Do your
homework, do your research, pick a university um That's a good fit for you
, but pick a university where you're going to be able to be a part of
campus life. Uh There's a lot to be learned that being in an organization
where whether the officer, the leader of member working toward goals.
These are experiences that will suit students very well. The other thing I
would say, once you get to a university get to career services very early
start developing that resume. Start developing those references. There are
a number of classes you take from professors and a student gets to the
senior year and says gee I wish I'd asked this professor gotten to know
him better in terms of a recommendation. But those kind of experiences on
a campus outside the classroom um are very important to employers and I
think a number of our students that have found that out. How did having
the weapon internet impact your job?
Well, it
We didn't really have. I go back a few years. I I retired in 19 ah 99 June
of 99 and a lot of the campuses didn't have their websites up but since
then all I need to do is to plug into our website here at A. S. U. And see
all the host of opportunities and to learn more about the university. Um
information technology did in a general sense did impact our jobs hugely
because it made our jobs much more easy ah and to be able to pull up data
and collate data and do email.
Of course that impacted I think every part of the campus, He retired from
99. What are you doing now?
Getting my by the end of the week, I go through my checklist and I'm not
even halfway through it and I, I'm as busy now. Not as busy, but you hear
this often, you know, how did I ever do everything, you know when I was
working? But we waited 35 years to have grandchildren and now we have
three
and two of them are twins, about 20 months old. So we spend six or 7 eight
trips up to Colorado each year and I get on campus from time to time. I'm
busy and other other things and it's always nice to say stay connected
with the university here, but I don't have spare time. I, I don't know
what goes with all the time. So it's a hazard to set goals and to have a
checklist even in the first place but not to reach them by the end of the
week you say. Where did that we go? Thank you very much. Thank you. Is
there anything else that you would like to add? Uh, I think you've covered
it or I've covered it. I think I spent a lot of time on the student
activism, but that was an important part of our history at, at Arizona
State University in which um, it could have been a lot different the
result, but our campus was never closed down like a number of other
campuses and the student movements, some of the student activism among the
ethnic minority student populations really, the result was a plus for the
university in addressing a number of needs of the are different student
groups. And I think it's evidence by our statistics today when, how the
university has responded. How did the state press
work with you? And it's a big part of the university? Mm hmm. You know, I
don't think people realized the impact that a campus newspaper can have.
Ah, a campus newspaper is an opinion shaper. And what comes out,
a tremendous number of students read it. And I think some of our students
in the positions that are in, they have no idea of the impact they can
have. And I talked about associated students quite a bit, but in meeting
by the student officers, I, I used to say, you know, you're not going to
realize how much influence you have until years later after you've
graduated because in their particular case, you know, they had immediate
access to the president to share whatever they wanted to do with the
president. They had immediate access to the border regions and the border
regions always wants to hear what students have to say about their
experience. And so these two buddy, I think by the time they finished
their uh term in office, they thought in retrospect, probably they had
more influence than they ever realized they had. But they were opinion
shapers, Student government's opinion shaper. The state press, a great
training ground and a lot of those were journalism students And they shape
opinions of, of a lot of our students. I mean, we some of our state press
reporters became speech writers for the president of the United States one
did and for the Vice President's um
mm hmm. A number of them have gone on to a very successful careers. And uh
, with the Republic and other newspapers, is there anyone editor that
stands out in your mind? We had a number of successful editors um, while
one of our editors ran for Governor, Lynn Munsil Len was editor, I I
forget which year it was, but as we know, he didn't uh, and make it
through. But uh gee we had, it's really difficult to single out any
particular one because we've had a number of outstanding student editors.
What was the international student program um that, you know, I didn't
really speak to, that, That was in student student affairs and the program
was located in student services building and represented all the different
international students. Our chinese students were by and large, the
largest student populations we had, but we had all these different student
groups uh, in the international students. And each year they would hold an
international affair out on West hall lawn and everybody would come around
after class and would have to go through student health to make sure that
safety standards and and all that were met. But mm hmm. They
a issue was a very attractive campus for our international students
internationally.
So, but they provided services to the students. They mentored the students.
They helped them form the different international student organizations.
Um, They had hospitality host families and they provided a real service to
our students.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, It's my
pleasure. Thanks
leon.
When, when you first arrived on campus, I believe
with the primary
concert, the area, they were, yes. Can you, can you address maybe some of
your experiences or restore your,
I mean, didn't associate students bring the rolling.
Yes. Well, you know, I have to think on that one. Um, I think they did.
They, they were getting revenue from the student concerts and then we had
Arizona student association that started up And Asa represented all three
campuses and the
concert revenue. And that ability to sponsor concerts was given to Arizona
student association and I didn't really agree with that at the time
because mhm the concert revenue got got spread out but it it really
preempted associated students from offering a number of the concerts now.
Gammage Auditorium who's always done a tremendous job. They were through
their area, they were able to sponsor concerts as well. But at one time
our Student Foundation, they were able to have one major concert a year
that they would sponsor and they would get the scholarship revenue or they
would get the revenue for scholarships for our leadership scholarship
program and associated students. The revenue they got, they did it to
supplement their budget and used it very very wisely but that the concert
that area changed and I remember going to the border regions because
there was a complaint about um the concert revenue and the one person that
was doing that for asa
there were some questionable
actions as to where the revenue was going. And the regions I think when
they learned that they tabled the motion and moved on
well as to concerts. Associated students used to sponsor concerts. Our
Student Foundation would get one concert a year, but there was really an
outstanding concert program. I can remember in most of these concerts were
in the activity center. Elvis Presley came to our campus. This was
probably three or four months before he died and a number of the students
were there, Associated students were there. I remember the governor coming
down and in fact some of the concerts, it would be interesting. Everybody
wanted to get good seats and associated students when they were in control
of them of the concerts and sponsoring, they had some input on who got
what kind of seats. But I remember the Governor coming to Elvis Presley's
concert and of course the activity center was packed and that evening
everybody could see that Elvis was struggling a little bit perspiring
profusely, um taking his, his rap or whatever and his handkerchief wiping
off his face so everybody could see that he was not in the form, he should
be frank. Sinatra came to the campus also and that was another tremendous
concert. We had um packed place in the activity center, jonny Denver, I
mean what kind of an experience for students, what kind of students get
this kind of experience and most of the audience would would be our
students and uh then the Rolling Stones, this was a major concert and Sun
Devil Stadium that just rocked the stadium and I think people are still
talking about it. Uh the movie with Barbra Streisand that was shot in
Gammage Auditorium. So a issue was the
host to a number of large commercial shot on the campus. Um large concerts
are student foundation used to get the revenue from commercial shot on the
campus. There was a ford motor come to commercial, they got revenue and
they were putting their funds into our leadership scholarship program, But
, and at one time, I mean our campus had a concert program. That was the
envy of many, many campuses.
Yeah. Hurricane
and joan Sutherland concert. I missed that. Yeah.
Right, okay. The fraternities and sororities, do they still have a big
impact on campus as they did in earlier years?
I don't think they do quite as much in the early years. They had
considerable influence. Um, and we used to have more fraternities. We used
to have more sororities, very positive experiences for our students and I
haven't kept track of this in the last seven or eight years, but I think
there are fewer fraternities and I think there are fewer sororities. Uh,
this can be a tremendous experience for, uh, a young man, a young woman.
Um, and when you look at the goals of all our fraternities and sororities
, of course, one of the top goals is academics. Um,
uh, there were some, of course, some fraternities, sororities much
stronger than others, but most of young people coming out of fraternities
and sororities were really, uh, appreciative of the experience they had as
most universities know, some of the major donors to the universities come
from those people that were in fraternities and sororities and had a real
satisfying, successful experience. But I don't think the influence is
quite as much as it used to be. Why do you, what do you think? Uh, I'm not
sure,
You know, I think students are so
focused on succeeding doing well academically, um, employment, I think
their focus is that it seems to me, we have well, let me give an example
back in the student protest days, students, many, many students weren't
that serious about school and didn't do with that well in school and
didn't worry about the next job or worry about employment today. It's a
bigger competitive world for those best jobs do well academically. And I
think our students, uh there are other, our other alternatives to portrays
it, sororities to have a meaningful campus life experience. So, I think
the employment picture and and the pressure that they feel they want to do
as well as their parents did, it's getting more difficult to get those
good jobs
here.
I have a question for you. Ah you know, you've you've described in great
detail the Protest of of the 70s,
we're we're approaching a situation in Iraq that's pretty similar. You see
students becoming involved in that sort of thing.
Uh Yes, Yeah. When um, when students here that 21,000 more troops are
going to be sent over to Iraq, it hits home, um, and back in the student
protest days, there were such strong feelings against the war in Vietnam,
and it's not until sometimes that a war is over, that you reflect back and
say, should we have been there? And I think there's a lot of doubt and a
lot of skepticism regarding when that war is gonna end, how many more
troops are we going to have to send over there? Um, is that a civil war?
What are we doing in the middle of a civil war? Is there a political
solution rather than a military solution? And back back then during the
Vietnam war, you know, we, there we had selective service and students,
we're being called into the military if their grades weren't weren't good.
As a matter of fact, we at one time hired what was called a selective
service advisor that was, who was advising students on their rights
responsibilities. The person could not advise them one way or another, uh
, had to be had to remain neutral. Uh, but that was a service that was
really well used as a matter of fact, we had a, we got a grant from the to
to employ a veteran's counselor in Matthew's Center in in the early days
and any number of students were coming in, you know, to talk to that
counselor regarding their particular chances of going into the military
as to whether they'll get involved to the extent with the protests and
demonstrations.
I think what really triggered and catapulted the protests was what
happened at Kent State and what happened at Jackson State and President
Nixon in April of 70, it's said we're going to go into cambodia? So the
concerns were starting there. But then when those students were killed on
those campuses, that that was the event that really kicked it off? And as
if there would be other events like that? Well, I'm not sure that kind of
an event would be needed to galvanize all the feelings there are towards
being over in Iraq. So, you think those feelings are here at the
university? I mean, as far as I imagine uh that they are with with the
students, um and it's such a difficult issue. You know, I think so many
students are in a quandary. Well, what what is best when you're over there
? You need to support the troops and I don't think there's any doubt, but
with 20 2000 or whatever it is, more individuals are going over to Iraq.
Ah
I I don't think that Congress cannot support that funding, you know, for
that to happen. So
the solutions and the answers are difficult because everybody's thinking,
well, is there a political solution to this rather than a military
solution?
So it's not a black and white issue? And that probably has a number of
students torn, you know, because you have really strong feelings among a
number of people, we should be there? Well, the feeling no one wants to
let our troops down. You know, that's the unanimous feeling we have to
support the troops and one's emotions get caught up in in that also. So
when when do they pull back
leon you did comment on john Duffy helping on the campus and everything.
You didn't mention the professor who wanted to have sort of stop
everything on campus.
It's okay. We we've had quite a few discourses on more stars. The first
one.
Yes,
I thought it probably was.
Yeah, I was out there that evening and I heard that and I thought boy we
better get ready for tomorrow.
And john Holman was our student body president then. And right after the
professor made his comments, john got up on the podium and our speakers
podiums by danforth chapel then and john implored the students to remain
calm and remain peaceful for for the next day. And I give john a lot of
credit for for doing that.
1. 1 thing I didn't talk about in terms of phenomena was streaking.
Um Are we still on paper? I I can comment um Back in 1973,
oh in the Los Angeles area and some of the other campuses streaking was
becoming a phenomenon. And so what was happening? A number of the
universities, their students were trying to break records of how many
students had strict, so we kind of knew sooner or later it was going to
get to a shoe. So and and that it did. And usually the streaking would
start at the fountain and the fountain was a gathering place for our
students. I mean it's a lovely place to come and inspire the chapel. And
um so this one day And it was, I think 1973 74 we're in a staff meeting
with the vice president for student know as our dean of students at that
time. George Hammond there, about the directors were there and we were
going through our agenda and we heard this loud roar coming from the
fountain and we had two secretaries in the, in the meeting taking notes
and everybody in Matthew's center ran out. Because what was happening is
this information would get out before this drinking would happen And when
this drinking would take place all of a sudden we would see people in
business attire from phoenix, you know, on campus to observe what was
going on. But this one morning it was about mid morning we heard this
large roar, so we go out to the fountain and the one for charity Around
five or 6 of their members had streaked from the fountain had taken off
their clothes. They put the clothes by the fountain and they streaked down
the mall to the north of the mall toward Matthew's center. Well, their
thought was, we'll make this quick, you know, and uh, we'll be out of here.
Well, they got back to the fountain, they couldn't find their clothes
and if they were smart, they would have had one of their members be
responsible guarding their clothes, but that didn't happen. So then about
two nights later, uh we had a an honors hall called mcclintock call it was
a women's residence hall and I don't know how this happened, but our
fraternities, several the fraternity's talked the women's residence hall
that night the next night and streaking with them. So they started at the
fountain and the fraternity's formed for attorney members formed a
perimeter around the McLintock call women and they streaked down the mall
and and then they came back and we must have had, well the word got out in
advance, I mean we had several 1000 people looking on and so they knew
they were going to make the news. And then I think the same night we had a
Pentecostal group that was in danforth chapel
and the doors were open and when the streaking took place some of the
streakers ran into the chapel they just stayed momentarily because they
kicked them out. They came, they came back out and during that time
campuses were trying to take to break records of one another and you had
One campus where they had 1200 streakers as University of Colorado. You
had another campus University of Georgia had six or 700. Um you had others
That had five or 600 and it was making the news nationally. So we knew it
was going to happen at ASU. We didn't know in what form or how we kind of
had an idea where it was going to start at the fountain and at the
university of michigan dad streaking. But what happened there, the
streaking formed a tradition And during the 90s they had what was called
the naked mile And they would have over a 1000 students streaking. And
this was an annual event. And so, uh, and and I have a friend that works
there now hmm with campus police, but so what they did, they started
filming the streaking and it appeared on the internet and so here's all
these parents, you know, for turning in on the internet that seeing their
sons and daughters. But anyway, it gradually
diminished and diminished to the point where they don't have this annual
event anymore, but it's only ended in the last year or two. But what would
possess students from doing that? I'm not sure we had during that era. We
had one student over a Swirl hall Who's his roommates bet him $50 that he
wouldn't streak from Swirl hall ah up on the mall, over to Palo verde West.
And at that time paloverde West was a women's hall. So he took up the bet
by the time he reached the main campus and I happened to be up on campus
that evening, By the time he reached the fountain, he must have had 200
students following him over to the women's residence hall and he started
climbing up the, well if one is familiar with the physical characteristics
of the renaissance palace remain, you can climb up a little bit because
there's a protrusion of the bricks out and he started climbing up and then
campus police got there and he got down, but there was quite a crowd that
had assembled by this time, But he did get to keep us $50. So I guess he
was kind of a campus hero with some of his but is there? But that was an
interesting phenomenon that passed fairly quickly. But we had streaking in
front of some of the academic buildings as well and again and yes. Oh yeah
, well it often takes place at athletic events and that's been
historically, uh, an event that they try to make a big splash there. But
it was difficult. I mean, from a student conduct standpoint. Um, we had to
take a look at it as two indeed. Was it indecent exposure? What actually
was it? And it was meant to be in good fun and we, we did call in some of
the students to talk about, you know, the appropriateness of, of streaking.
And there was one young man that was let us streaking in front of the
arts and science and liberal arts building. And um, I recognized him
actually as in a restaurant. I recognized him and one day they were doing
pre registration. So he was over at the registration and more building and
I, I got in line right behind him because he had to give his name. Yeah.
And two days later I, I got him a letter and I called him in, talk to him
about it and we didn't take any serious disciplinary action, but he didn't
streak anymore. But his career with, well
actually,
yeah, more good stories like that.
Um,
well there were a lot of stories you really couldn't talk about, but, but
let me john Duffy was just such a fine person and he was he more than any
one single individual
who was responsible for our getting through those campus protest days. And
everybody loved john, I mean faculty, they, they loved him and it's, it's
not easy being a campus police chief and being loved by people. But john
was that he would play pranks on people, but he would always meet with us
, you're my boss George and would meet with him and they would kind of
script out things the day before things would happen. And, but john would
talk to these students and say, okay now, if you're going to have a march
, you can do this or you can't do this. And he would line up the
parameters and they would, they would listen to him and several of the
students that were the main instigators of these protests,
I felt the world thought the world john Duffy and they followed what he
said and if he said, hey, if you're going this building, I'm gonna have to
arrest you. They believed him. But yeah, we were blessed to have john
there when frank kush was fired. Did it greatly affect the back of the
students? They get involved? The,
well here, let's go back to the state press. Yes. Some of the students did
get involved because the state press started running stories about, about
the Rutledge incident before the other newspapers picked up on it. And
that's what happened from time to time. It might be the new times that
would take on a story. That wasn't that, that's fairly sensitive. That
would then force the other newspapers that uh, take up the story. But the
state press, I think broke the initial stories. And so it was written
about, it was on the news on and on and on. So, um, and then it was, it
was tragic because I think it frank said, look in the heat of the moment,
the emotion, you know. Yeah, I guess I did, you know, shake his helmet or
grab him. I think it might have been over if frank had indicated that uh
huh my boss George Hammond, I went down to some of the hearings on the, on
the suit and there was a lot going on during them because
a number of people wanted pro football to come into the stadium and frank
had said as long as I'm here, there's not going to be a pro football and
with frank, not here as head coach. Uh, not too many people were ready to
go against frank kush because it was so popular, it was really a bulky
right here in Arizona and for that matter, he still is kinda, I'm glad
he's back in the athletic department. But, but had frank said gee, I don't
know. I guess I lost my temper. I don't think it would have going on the
way it did
well that, that was a tough evening that when frank was let go, we played
the University of Washington I think the next night and frank learned in
the afternoon that he was being let go. He learned from one of our sports
writers who was a friend that was the first he heard about about the news.
And so he went to the locker room that night and bob Owens was going to
be the one that took over the team and he told bob Owens I'm coaching this
team tonight. So by the time they came running out of the dressing room
onto the field, I mean there was electricity in the air. Everybody was
upset, you know that he was being fired And here comes frank with the team.
And I don't think we had beaten Washington that night. University of
Washington but we beat them and they had probably 100 highway patrolman up
in the sky boxes protecting uh, the athletic director. And uh, I had a
friend that was sitting up with the athletic director and I mean people
were banging on the windows of the skyboxes and uh, but after the game, we
won and they carried frank out on their shoulders and it was banners all
over the stadium. Oh, very, very emotional and I'm glad to see frank back
. I think
that's already done a lot for the healing of,
of our fans the state and naming the field after frank, I think really did
a lot of healing. And When Ned Walk left, he left four victories before
his 25th year. And I don't know, four or 500 victories when they named
that the gymnasium, the sidewalk, uh, floor that did a lot of healing to,
which needed to take place because we lost a lot of fans support during
those years after, after those two, the coaches were let go,
it's been an exciting time around being out of the university. You were
there during the exciting times. Yeah, yeah, it was and I would never do
anything differently. And I just was really fortunate to be there because
you have this image of people that are in high places like a president or
, and I think of laddie cooler. I mean, uh, these people are approachable
and I met with our dean of students at the time George ham.
And I thought, well, you know, he seems like a pretty grounded guy, not
into himself and I went into his office and he had a table and put his
feet up on the table and I said, you know, this isn't the image I have of
people at higher places, but I think a lot of students come to the campus
and they don't really realize that their professors are as approachable as
they are. They don't realize that whether it's a Christine wilkinson or
some other vice presidents that hey, you know, they enjoy that student
contact and those acquaintances as much as anyone else. And that's
something that with students coming to the campus having access to
information, having access to staff and students really makes their
experience much more enjoyable. They do better. They learn where the
resources are. I can remember when I went through my graduate work, I
didn't know that much about financial aids. I didn't know I could get
grants or that kind of thing, but students coming in now are much more
informed, but that's really the role of whether it be student affairs of
faculty or whomever to make students aware of all the resources that are
available and you can get involved in this group or that group. And uh,
that makes a big difference to employers when they look at a, at a resume
when a student is graduating. Did the student just wasn't just academics
or what else, what other kind of experiences would prepare that student to
be coming to our particular firm or company and being a success. Ah, I, I
didn't mention any student names or how successful, but we've got students
that were assistant attorney generals of the United States. One former
student body president was an executive with CBS.
Got a former student region. That's I think a vice president with Nike. I
mean there are so many examples of these students that had a full
experience and and you look at them now and you say, well how do we design
and experience for all students? Not just students and student government
or not students just in L. S. P. R. Leadership scholarship program or the
reach staff or student foundation or devil's advocates. Um that's that's
one of the challenges of a student affairs unit two have a level level
playing field for as many students as they can.
So
thank you. Thank you very much. I guess I was kind of wound up. Huh?
Well I got involved too much in there. Student activism probably. But old
main park was the place where everybody would end up at, you know, at the
end of the day. And
yeah,