to start off, I always like to identify on the tape that this is. Let's
see Tuesday july 30th of 2000 and two. And we are here at the S. U.
Information center at rural and Apache doing an interview for the Arizona
state retirees Association Living history video project. Can you hear me
okay? Okay. I'm just checking. Okay,
let me know if you don't hear me? All right. I'll try to speak up for you
and I'd like to have you introduce yourself. So we get your full name. I'm
a ross rice, ross richard rice. And some people have called me Triple R.
And uh I've been in their shoes since the 1950.
I'd like to start with. Just a little bit of background. Can you tell me
about when you were born and where you were born? I can tell you exactly
if you're really interested. I was born January
13, 1922 in southwestern Iowa. The town was Shannon Andorra, Shenandoah
Iowa and I uh staying there through part of my college career. Why don't
you tell me a little bit about your family. Um Well I have a wife Marie
who happened to be with me here today and
we have four Children. All girls. And there was Maryland and Roxanne and
Valerie and lori, what about your family growing up? You mentioned you
came from Iowa, was that, did you, was it a farm? Did you grow up? Where
did you grow up in? You know how many small town, about 67 or 7000
population. It was just a small town. I had a number of cousins who were
from farming families and a lot of the people I knew were farmers and
farmers families. For many of us still have some cousins living in Iowa
farms by the way. What about your parents? What what did they do? My
father, when I was a kid growing up, he worked for the, for one of the
railroads of the day, the wall bash railroad and he uh worked in the
freight department of that railroad in Shenandoah. One of the side
benefits that I was happy to receive was a railroad pass which gave me
transportation from Shenandoah to Omaha Nebraska. Oh Mahal was important
to me because there was a university there and my first chance to go to
college.
What about your mom? My mother was a housewife, a former teacher. But both
of our parents had been teachers at one time in their earlier careers. In
fact, I think they met at a teacher's meeting or teachers convention in
shandong or one of the smaller towns in that community area of Iowa. My
mother had four Children of which I was the oldest and uh, all my three
sisters are living, wow good healthy family. What as a boy? Were you a
good student? Uh, well you would have to ask my teachers and so on. I
guess I was a pretty good student. I got through high school and now what
were your favorite subjects? My favorite subjects along the way, I suppose
english
the language and I started picking up some foreign languages along the way.
Such as uh something. I took some courses in latin and uh started picking
up some spanish in college and later I did more spanish and our take
italian. And then uh, when there was a need for people who spoke foreign
languages and the United States had used some young man, I was drafted and
sent to Italy.
How did you get interested in foreign languages in Iowa? Well, uh, in part
I suppose because uh, I'm
on not a Kathleen nana roman catholic, but I earned a academic scholarship
to a uh, Cameron roman catholic school at Creighton University in Omaha
Nebraska. And so when I went there I already knew some
spanish language. Then I volunteered for a language school while I was in
the military, I was in the military. A total of about three years. What
about as a boy growing up? Um, what kind of things do you remember about
your boyhood? That was the depression years, wasn't it? Oh yes, it was
depression years, fortunately for me, my family wasn't touched too deeply
by the depression. My father had a job to the depression years. Such as
his job was and we didn't want to visit materially for too much of if
anything my sister is, they came along and only myself and my younger
sister, I went to college. My younger sister of all places came to Arizona
state University and a place called Tempe Arizona. I was already there on
the faculty.
You were kind of the leader of the family. Well it kind of turned out that
way I suppose along the way. So as a boy growing up, did you have to work
to, to help out the family or did you have any jobs? Did you have any job
paid jobs as well? Yes in the newspaper I had a a, I got up at five
o'clock every morning for my last two years of high school and deliver
newspapers. The des Moines register which had a um well known sports
section in its day. It was peach colored and stood out from all the other
pages of the daily newspapers published into one. I'll of course and I, I
did that as a regular thing through uh my two years remaining of high
school.
What did you as a boy, what did you think you wanted to do when you grew
up? I,
I guess I always thought about the possibility of being a school teacher
and my parents said I've been in that online at one time and I was too, I
started college and that was in Omaha Nebraska. I had handed there for two
years and then I was running out of money and I decided to go to Iowa
state college at cedar rapids Iowa in a different corner of Iowa than I
had growing up in. And I, I went there too
for what started, started my junior year and then I was drafted into the
military service. I was drafted into the US army and later I after
volunteering for what was called the army specialized training program. I
was sent to the University of Chicago in a wartime language program and
studied italian language very intensively, believe it or not. They had a
bunch of US G I. S of small midwestern towns setting the language of Dante
and other classical italian writers and philosophers and so on and in the
air. So I myself was uh first southern and then later in Northern Italy
and back again in southern Italy and Naples before leaving there. I found
that fascinating despite some of the circumstances of the time, Why don't
you tell me a little bit about what was that like? How did you get over to
Italy by an american ship? They didn't inform us until we've been at sea
for uh several days that we were going to Italy for. We had guest Italy.
Uh some of the officers and men with some myself, they had gas that we're
probably going to Italy but they didn't say for sure that we were and
landed Taranto Italy and in the and the southern very southern part and
worked our way up to the north, farther farther north and into a place
called san severo. And then after the conquest of northern Italy we were,
I was transferred any aerial photo reconnaissance unit to Florence. Italy
And I was in Florence for 10 months and stationed on the wall places the
medical school campus of the University of Florence. And that was quite an
exciting and experience for a young person like me. It must have been
coming from the midwest America to Italy. What was your first impression
when you got there? Well, I
I had all kinds of impressions. I and now I don't know. Donald, I would
put pick out any one or two first impressions. It was a and I open her in
many ways to it To me
the food they gave us was probably american food that may have been sent
to Italy with women and I have been given the details on how we were fed
and if some details such as that, but probably was american in origin. And
uh um certainly we were well fed enough and the member complained about
the at least the quantity of food that we were receiving. And Uh the I was
put in charge of about a unit of about 25 enlisted men. And it really I
ran a post office in Italy. I ran it in Florence and replaced a technical
sergeant who was from Hood river Oregon. And um he had been in north
africa during earlier during the World War two. And I had been slower in
coming in because I was younger, a few years younger than than he was.
You ran the post office. So yeah, yeah, it was a male and distribution. We
called it the mail and distribute no stamps, practically everything we
handled was classified in a military sense secret, top secret, that sort
of thing. So you didn't really see any of the combat or anything anyway,
combat combat. No, I was not in a in a combat. I had been trained for
possible combat on the shooting range in uh Illinois and later in north
Carolina and what not. I wasn't called upon for combat. If the government
of Italy under Benito Mussolini was beginning to get ready to capitulate.
Did you meet and interact with the native?
one of the first thing I did was to pick up the pleasant habit that they
called passage ari I mean walking and going for a walk and I became
friendly with a um
um a pharmacist, a young pharmacist, a male and san severo Italy. And we
would meet in downtown san severo on the eastern coast of the buddha villa.
And we would go walking almost every afternoon late in the afternoon and
the pasta jaro is a well known habit and custom in many parts of Italy.
So how long were you in Italy altogether? I was there for a year and a
half. And then the war ended and the war ended when I was For for for us
in Europe, the war ended ended in, I guess it was in May of 1945.
And then uh we were in the Northern Italy so and the Germans held on
fighting very bitterly in Northern Italy and the war there continued until
19
For late in 1945.
So then um When did you come back to the United States? I came back in
time for Christmas of 1945. I came back on an american aircraft carrier
that had been in combat in the pacific theater of operations And I came
back from Naples Italy to new york city. And okay, I still remember very
vividly going by the statue of liberty in the harbor of new york city as
we came in and then I got my discharge and believe it or not, I went back
to school, it was this time not the
army
language school, it was a civilian school but back at the University of
Chicago. I am my records were there already, they had been sent there
during and the war America as I just started in school there and I later
earned a master's and PhD degree from the University of Chicago. And what
were you studying there? I, I had thought of myself as not in american
history and when I first started going to college but I guess my service
in the military and and a university professor at Chicago by the name of
Charles Miriam kind of changed me Charles Miriam had been elected
president of the american Political Science Association. He had been in
Italy during World War One and he is very well known throughout the city.
He ran for mayor of Chicago unsuccessfully. He ran as a republican in a
democratic city and so he didn't make it, but he had a million stories to
tell. A young guy like me about his career. He had been in the the Signal
corps in Rome Italy in the first World War and I kind of followed the uh
some years later, much in his uh path you might say. He remember I was on
the Chicago city council for several years and I followed up by becoming a
councilman in the city of Tempe Arizona where Arizona State University is
located. And also I
hold up and and on the other city council and by mayor as well. Um Going
back to your education, why did you decide to go on and get your masters
and your PhD um
to pick up the the United States government made it possible for G. I. S.
Like myself to get an education if they wanted to. And since I wanted to
I've been doing that until I was drafted for active duty and during the
war I went back to school right away and hardly a day go by. But while I
was in the classroom somewhere. So did you just, you stayed straight
through. Um And I went home from the time I got off the aircraft carrier
in uh new york city, I went home by a railroad and then I took another
railroad train to um Chicago and this time as a civilian without the
military uniform on. So what were your plans, what are you gonna do with
all that education? I thought I might teach someday and I have, I taught
nearly 30 years at Arizona State University Tempe in the Phoenix area.
Well what what brought you out to Arizona? A signed contract with somebody
that I don't think I've ever heard of it at that time. Somebody named
Grady Gammage who was president of uh what had been a teacher's college at
in Tempe Arizona. It it was changing slowly from a small agricultural area
and doing more of an urbanized area and I uh was changing with it you
might say. Um well how did you hear about it or what I registered with the
placement office at the University of Chicago and my mom, University or
college as a placement office for potential teachers and other types of
people who get college work and degrees and so on and then wanted to go
and make a career and and changed and changed our lives. Have you ever
been to Arizona before? No, I had never been to Arizona before and I have
been away one a little over a year since then I a taught as a visiting
professor on one year at the university of California in santa Barbara on
the pacific coast. And uh we all went over there all all six prices. So
what what year was it that you came to Arizona 1950. And what was your
first job here? My first job was as a, what they called a
usually when you started out as an assistant professor but they gave me
even a lesser right now. What was it called instructor? I was an
instructor for I guess three years after that I was promoted to his
assistant professor and then began they own your um uh steps to become a
professor eventually. And so I was the first and an instructor three years
and then assistant professor Which was three years and then associate
professor and finally professor of what? Political science and I ah you
know by taking a job at a small town um college in Arizona that I was in
most demand in my teaching ability for history, not the government, not
political science. That came a little bit later. So I thought such courses
in american history and Western civilization. I had to study ancient
Greece and Rome. But fortunately I've been in ancient Rome but not in
ancient Greece. And so I
did teach history for a number of years and eventually I worked my way
into sequence of political science courses. What was your first impression
when you first came out to Arizona.
I
I don't know that I have any first impressions uh that I would pick out. I
I
had no idea I would stay in like five years or 50 years and, but I didn't
today on longer and longer. Um The salaries we remember law relatively low.
They were better in such more prosperous states as California. And as I
found out particularly by that year expanded santa barbara. And, but that
came later on. And the longer I stayed in Arizona, the more I got to like
it and subsequently did I have stayed here a long time, describe for me,
what was a s, you, what wasn't even A. S. U. What was Arizona State
College like when you got here? Well, it had had been a teacher's college.
Still had some remnants of that. And the teachers college organization
there, there was a training school for prospective elementary and high
school teachers and uh my wife taught in uh such a school herself at a
later time for several years. And uh, I thought my petition was all at the
college level. I thought a good many evening classes, mostly in
constitutional government and located in high schools and the Salt River
valley. And I thought of mesa and phoenix Scottsdale and other communities.
It was extra paid at that time. Tell me what was your first salary when
you first came here? Do you remember that? Come on and remains in my
memory. $3300 3300
dollars. And but they did make it possible for me to teach summers and
evening classes and the evening classes uh um were of interest to me along
with the possibility of summer teaching Just for posterity. That was
$3,300 a year. Right?
Some people listening to this and the future might not know that.
Um What was your impression of what Arizona or Tempe was like when you
first got here? Mhm. Well, okay. I uh enjoyed
the acquaintances. Uh I mean I I met a lot of people in different walks of
life that I had not had contact with much before and they weren't all
military people, even part time military people like myself. And uh that
gave me an eye opening experience, interest
in learning about people. I have to tell you some psychology and the like
along the way. So I had a pretty broad education I suppose and I said some
psychology and uh quite a wide variety of experience. This whole valley
was a lot more rural in 1950, wasn't it? Oh yes. Oh yes. The this valley
depended pretty much upon agriculture and that simply blossomed after
World War Two, World War Two made a lot of change in Arizona. I think that
sometimes neglected or overlooked the impact of the war years upon Arizona
, more people came in. Uh There were people who came from all over the
United stations, I say to make their homes in the area or at least and not
to stay a long time to make their own, but at least it's a, a short time
only made some impact while they were here.
And how big was the campus when you came here? Campus was around 5000 uh
when I came and it was changing. Also the city of Tempe was beginning to
grow
at that time too. How big was the city? But the city was more like uh six
or 7000 population. It wasn't long until Tempe was larger, then larger
than my hometown. I grew up in southwestern Iowa And the 1950s, 60s, 70s.
Here's a great population change or western states. Like Arizona, the
west was really beginning to grow
and the campus was a lot different than to you mentioned. Grady damage was
the one that hired you. What was he like? He was a slightly gruff learned
ban. His background was education and he came from a teacher's college
background. You Bennett and what is now en au Northern Arizona University
in Flagstaff just before coming to at 10 p.m. A. S. U. And uh, it was
pleasant to get acquainted with him and he had um HD Richardson Harold
Richardson as his second, the command you might say at that time. And
Richardson was also in the teacher's college mold.
Um What was the department, what department did you work for when you
arrived arrived? I worked for a department. It was a combined department,
social studies, social studies consisted of history, political science and
did not include economics. Economics was over and new college of business
, as is the case with some other universities. And
also we had psychology was not part of our makeup either. Psychology was
with education again in the teacher's college more. We remained at State
Teachers College part of the time for many years thereafter.
What was your first office like? First office was
and pretty much in the central part of the campus, they began to quite a
building program and I see my, I've been putting in a new building for a
while about every year and uh slowly but surely I began to more recently
constructed buildings and leaving the older buildings behind and the I
enjoyed the changes in location, uh usually have more advantages in our
background. I took advantage of being in a location. Uh Tempe a college
town just a few miles from the town that was becoming large, urbanized,
Western city, that was phoenix. And so I got to phoenix whenever I could
in the circumstances permitted it and began to get acquainted with the
wide variety of people. One of the first people I didn't get acquainted
with us the name Gold Goldwater Barry Goldwater, he was a member of the uh
phoenix city council and he was one of the phoenix people I didn't get
acquainted with and nearly Uh they uh my last year of teaching something,
almost 30 years later, Barry Goldwater was a guest lecturer in among
several of my classes in political science. Goldwater and I mean I haven't
been in the US Senate for many years and had a a national reputation, not
an international reputation by them. What about did you ever meet Carl
Hayden? Well, Carl Hayden was a man who had been born In the year 1877
in Tempe and he had, his father had founded and what became Arizona State
University and Carl Hayden,
his father and others of the time were really pioneers. Western pioneers
and they are on the banks of the Salt River and they um sort of a new kind
of education and became an Arizona state University, became a research
university and no longer was a teacher's college alone. And there was
still a teaching element. Yes, but not at, no, I didn't exclusively aim at
making new teachers.
You mentioned that, that you got involved in some city politics too. You
want to tell us a little about that? Well, I found that Tempe was governed
by the mayor council type of city government. And uh I had come out of an
educational and work experience background where the council manager plan
was becoming prevalent and in the council manager plan, there is an
elected mayor and elected city council. The manager is a usually a career
person can be a woman or a man. Certainly today and the manager is really
the administrator of the city or town. And today in Arizona phoenix,
Tucson, most of the larger cities of Arizona are council manager
And so I I was a supporter of this. And in 1960
three, just after I had left the council, I was on an elected commission
that wrote and what is now the President Tempe city charter. And then we
have a council manager plan in operation here in Tempe.
What years were you on the city council? I was on the city council for a
total of four years. Not a long time, but still long enough to make an
imprint I think. And I was on for four years. The last year of which the,
the other six members of the council elected me as a presiding officer, I
was called the mayor. And what years was that? I only counsel from 1958 to
1962.
And the last year of which I was elected mayor. Right after that, I had
received the invitation down to teach at the university of California
santa Barbara and I accepted that and we've gone for a year and then I
returned to a S. U. After my year in California. I haven't your experience
on the, the city council impact on your teaching duties at the university
was? Well, I think there was an impact. Uh, certainly
I, one impact you can see today. We have a a mayor of Tempe after Tempe.
I'm growing a great deal in many ways university too. Uh A person with a
issue credentials is now a
The mayor of the oppressor Mayor 19 Uh 2002. uh President Mayor Demby Neil
Giuliano. But you were teaching about political science but you were
actually living it too. You know, you could say that. Yes. Uh huh.
I saw lots of changes. One that changed was that more and more women were
becoming involved in government. Arizona Haven now has a governor who was
the woman. Did you ever think you'd see that? I wasn't too surprised I
shouldn't have been. I think I had some ideas that might be coming someday.
Not only temporary but many places.
Um As you look back over your your long career of 30 years of teaching.
Are there any events that stand out in your mind?
Um I found myself in some controversy in the community.
We had a professor at A. S. U. And uh and the philosophy department who
became from my rather controversial figure during the 19
forties and fifties and he became pretty well known but not too popular in
some parts of the community. However the faculty committee of which I was
the chairman and decided that he should be kept on for a longer period. He
was granted academia. We called tenure and he remained here for a number
of I'm here. Who was that? His name is Morris Starsky
And he was pretty well known person here at one time. He's been gone
elsewhere.
Considerable period. What about in the 60s when there was a lot of
protesting on campus about Vietnam? There was a considerable period of
protests. Vietnam. Yes, that's right. Vietnam was an unpopular war in many
ways. And that had not been the case with World War I and two. World War.
That wouldn't have impacted Arizona state very much. But World War Two
certainly did. In fact many more people. And uh
and then the Post warriors. I say it turned out to be very important. And
the growth and change here at A. S. U. But what about in the 60s? That was
that kind of a tumultuous period of The 60s were pretty tumultuous
themselves and society was changing. And part of that of course was the
change where women were demanding and receiving and more of an active role
in society than they had before Earlier. Women had one place to go if they
didn't want to stay at home and work the classroom. And that was just
about it. And uh there were some women who did go to places like law
school and then couldn't get jobs at one time. And that has begun to
change.
Did you see much with the civil rights of the, Oh yes uh issue. Well, the
Tempe itself had been uh segregated racially at one time and that began to
change in the 1950s. The big change occurred in the 1960s. And during that
time, number of civil rights actions at the national level, which of
course, uh, impact them back to the, what was happening in Arizona as well.
And so he began to see people of Hispanic and other nationalities and
backgrounds, languages getting into school. I saw something about a
protest at on campus in the, I guess it was in the fifties or early
sixties about um, civil rights. That's the chicano movement. I think it
was. The chicano movement was uh,
with the Hispanic people from central America, South America and the
caribbean area. And plus uh some from Spain where many had originated
their ancestors originated earlier. And it began society will begin to.
Did you change? And today many people living in Arizona working in Arizona
are spanish speaking or they may speak two languages. What about on campus
? Did you see those protests going on? Or did you start teaching about
some of those things? There
were some protests from time to time, but uh, they didn't become very
disruptive. Not a issue was a relatively calm quiet campus when some
campuses are much more agitated and possibly it was the Arizona remoteness
from much of the american population worked for a while here in the west.
And we're not and we didn't have very many large cities for a long time
here in Arizona.
What about some of the other changes you were here when it changed the
name changed? And tell us about that the name change for Arizona State
University. Yes. It had been a teacher's college at one time as we've said.
And uh, then there were movements bills introduced into the Arizona
legislature going for a name change and usually with the word university
being added. And finally it was, there was Uh, measure placed on the
Arizona ballot in the year 1958
and I don't have been here eight years at the time and it passed, there
were a number of a issue. Ah people involved. My wife Marie was one of the
people who did some of the public speaking to to help
convince people who consider yes vote at that time for a name change. It
was successful and we've had Arizona State University since that time. Um
, well, didn't you tell me a little about your wife? How did you meet her
? I met her as a fellow graduate student at the University of Chicago
after World War Two. And she had been a wave during the war, women in the
naval military and she had what was called the Gi bill of Rights. And as I
did, so we both had a chance to go to school and and we both have ended up
in teaching careers. Mine has been lifetime or her part time. She shared
it with four Children. So she came to Arizona with you then. Oh yeah Made
the whole trip from Chicago and one car. Did you have kids then too? Yeah
we had maybe my mother came along just to help my wife out on the trip.
It's been an interesting trip. Yeah it was a busy trip.
Mhm. So did you ever think that you'd stay this long when you came out
here in 1950? Oh no not really. I I like that a lot of people I thought
that after a few years of trying it out here in Arizona and there I would
put my put in an application elsewhere and go elsewhere. Just never
happened that way. I this data and I was satisfied and happy enough to one
more year at that time. They only offered us one year contracts. So I
stayed on, what why do you think that you stayed? What what was it about?
H. U. Or Arizona opportunity? It was changing. You were never pigeonholed
forever. And some people get into kind of a rut. You can get into a rut at
universities and a lot of other places and what but I never felt that I
was done a dead end rut. I had Arizona State University. Mhm. There was an
opportunity. I thought I would apply myself and try a little more a little
harder as you as you look back. What do you see as your greatest
achievement or most interesting achievement
I suppose giving a little uh tenure to a new department of Political
science, there had not been a separate department when I came, we were
part of social studies department. RK Willis was the department chairman.
He came from american history background and I came from a political
science background
and D. R Van Patten, he was from history background too. He was the first
person. And Arnold tilden also did some teaching in both history and
political science. When did that come about? That came about in the 1950s
and shortly thereafter,
was that a hard thing or how did you know, there was no
particular opposition or um unfortunately somebody had had the foresight
before I came to put some new course titles in the university catalog and
we were beginning to make moves towards the department of Political
Science even more before I came and they were just carried out when I came.
Did you have something you wanted Marie wanted
um that you wrote on hand, you wrote a book, Carl Hayden, you know? Yeah,
I didn't I didn't talk about that very much. You want to pick it up.
One of the people that I became very much interested in was the career for
center Carl Hayden of Arizona. He um I've been been born in Tempe. His
father had been a founder of the town and Nate and grew up. He had some
siblings and some sisters and he was, he ran, he made a kind of career of
public service. I was increased to do so and I realized there was a gap
that had uh, become more and more, um,
my consciousness And the longer I was here, No one had written on Hayden.
There was nothing of what you want to call a scholarly book or even a
news magazine articles on Hayden. Yet he was more and more powerful
position, more influential position in congress. He had been elected a
city rather town councilman for Tempe and 1910
era. And he had been uh, county sheriff, uh, Maricopa county. And so he
has this in his background. And he had attended stanford University and
came almost on very, very close to receiving a degree from stanford, which
was really the place to be in, in that era of american education. And he
uh,
mm hmm, had been elected to Congress the year Arizona became a state 1912
And he remained in the US House of Representatives from 1912 to 1926. In
1926, he was elected to the United States Senate And he remained and re
elected every six years thereafter until the 1960s when he did retire from
congress all altogether. He had a great impact on the uh West and
particularly in terms of water, water of the Colorado River were among his
um, most interesting
concerns during his career and the west began to be a place for dams, the
hoover dam and other dams were built in Arizona and other states
particularly here in the west and he uh
the West became more of an agricultural era as well, population started to
flow in and Arizona took advantage of that. Now there are water resource
movements in many parts of the world taking place. And when did you write
the book about him? I started that probably almost from day one. My first
arrived here and it wasn't conscious. I've been thinking about writing a
book someday and um, but I was encouraged by um people, the issue
administration and by a fellow department members, students and the like
and to work on the Hayden career Aiden was, became a more and more
powerful figure as he went along. Did you actually interview him? Oh yes.
I I interviewed 100 or so people face to face uh for this. Those
interviews are located now in the archives of Arizona State University and
in a building that's named for Carl Hayden's father who was Charles
trumble Hayden. And
those interviews are there And some, some are quoted at some length in the
book itself. Tell me about interviewing Carl Hayden, Where when and where
did you do that? I interviewed him on campus or where he was living after
his retirement which was in Tempe. He came back to Arizona to live. So
many United States congressman uh from far off places are maybe elected
and but I haven't come once they are defeated or retire. They seldom go
home to live. He did. He came back actually to to live in campaign and
remain here for several more years and still quite active in that period
of of time. What was he like when you interviewed him? He was, he was a
storyteller. He told stories, uh some of which are recounted in the in the
book, Which was published by the University Press of America in 1994.
And as available and a number of areas uh libraries around the state of
Arizona and elsewhere. Library of Congress. It wasn't published until 94.
You must have worked on that a long time. Oh yeah. Is that why I was busy
with them for a long time. There were personal interviews, a considerable
amount of travel was involved and I have almost on coast to coast and that
and became well known. Arizona became more and more of a state people
listen to two as well. Goldwater became a figure along with Hayden and two
very powerful figures other some other people. Ernest Mcfarland became
well known for the democrats and he became more and more known. He was the
governor of Arizona and one time in his career.
Well, I'm surprised you didn't mention that book. Something more memorable
any other good questions that we need to ask him. I yeah, I was ross tell
us a little bit about some of your colleagues in the political science
department or the social studies department Who was here in the 50s and
60s that you recall.
Um
I came into a social studies department which was history and political
science.
Political science without person to teach the political science courses is
first and then I took over the teaching of most of those courses. My
course is involved american government in the main and constitution, the
constitution of the United States and uh Arizona and I
one year I had a you can do a lot of extra stay and uh California state
government. That area was in santa barbara.
So were there any people in your department that works especially
memorable? RK Willis was american historian. He was trained in the, in
history at the University of California Berkeley and he and topped the
latin american history to a considerable degree. Van Pen was more american.
Arnold Hilton taught american history for a long time. Invited Dean of
the College of Liberal Arts here at the university
Paul Hubbard, one of the
paul Hubbard, Hubbard, paul Hubbard. You have some other people who came
along, paul harbored uh the american historian and his field was the
american civil war era and he taught for many years, just about the same
length of time as I did. He's now retired. Um Your wife mentioned when you
first came here, you stayed at Victory Village. You want to tell us a
little bit what that was about. Yeah, there was some post war housing made
available and to to on former Gi's like myself called Victory Village is
president location of Grady Gammage Auditorium on the current campus.
And we lived there. It was army top barracks, wooden barracks. We've been
there for several years and and then moved into ah nearby residential
areas.
Did you ever think when you came here that you'd see the kind of changes
that you've seen at the university and the city of Tempe? I had no idea
what the future my brain and I guess I just, I want to be part of it.
Um,
I noticed that you want to just answer that one more time about how you've
seen it change.
Oh, I've seen lots of changes. Give me a couple of minutes to jot down.
Yeah. There are changes of and and the act activities of government have
been considerable and
mm hmm,
tim Tempe didn't have a paid fire department at one time. Now it does. And
uh, that's that that was a change. And I have played a major role and that
putting some people to work,
two
offer fire protection to the community. How do you want to be remembered?
I guess one pretty busy guy
in any particular area that you've been busy. No,
not that I would put a finger on my right at the moment. What are you
proud of stuff that you've accomplished.
Um, my family is a major of her. Part of my an accomplished mother. I
would put the family. I have poured it up. We're at the top for that
matter. And and after the family um
the some of the changes in society, I'm glad that
race relations have tapered off as they haven't many. I see many changes
that has been taken by very slowly and ASU wow.
The head of some other universities along the way behind early but then
later A. S. U. It was more of a national university in that regard. Do you
have any examples of that um Education?
We did not exclude students from going ahead for ah second or third
degrees as the years went by? We welcome them and now I understand we have
a rather ah sizable
indian population. In fact, one thing I remember was an american indian. I
grew up in Northern and Northeastern Arizona. He wasn't online last
classes before I retired and he got a lot of grief, let me ask you. And
we're beginning a legal career. The left eye heard of him, What was his
name? Michael upshaw. Not a very common name for an american indian but
the name is Michael upshaw. Mhm. What kind of advice do you give young
people that are just starting out their careers. Ah
I think I make an investment and time in your education. It'll be worth it
precisely anything
else that either of you wanted to.
Van Patten was. What play was Van Patten
connected to your department.
one of the people who, within the department of Political science,
department of Social Studies when I came was D. R. Van Patten, Donald Van
Penton. And one of his extra duties was to serve in the athletics area of
sports. And they one time was asked to be uh director of uh
intercollegiate athletics and he filled that role for a period of time.
Yeah, I came from the University of Chicago and Chicago had dropped some
of the competitive sports and one time now Chicago has just about all the
competitive sports and back again, but perhaps without some of the
scholarships that some universities uh depend upon. And uh hey,
I was named by President Homer Durham to be on the board of athletic
control. And I was on that for several years. And so I I became acquainted
with a number of sports figures frank is a football coach, ned walker as a
basketball coach and some others. And so I was wrapped up in sports. Um
Not much more than that. That was one thing that I hadn't expected and
I went along,
I have the circumstancesdemanded