WEBVTT 00:00:00.540 --> 00:00:04.707 to start off, I always like to identify on the tape that this is. Let's 00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:10.726 see Tuesday july 30th of 2000 and two. And we are here at the S. U. 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:15.836 Information center at rural and Apache doing an interview for the Arizona 00:00:15.869 --> 00:00:21.416 state retirees Association Living history video project. Can you hear me 00:00:21.449 --> 00:00:26.846 okay? Okay. I'm just checking. Okay, 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:31.677 let me know if you don't hear me? All right. I'll try to speak up for you 00:00:31.710 --> 00:00:37.226 and I'd like to have you introduce yourself. So we get your full name. I'm 00:00:37.259 --> 00:00:45.259 a ross rice, ross richard rice. And some people have called me Triple R. 00:00:45.539 --> 00:00:51.196 And uh I've been in their shoes since the 1950. 00:00:51.229 --> 00:00:55.207 I'd like to start with. Just a little bit of background. Can you tell me 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:59.067 about when you were born and where you were born? I can tell you exactly 00:00:59.100 --> 00:01:04.667 if you're really interested. I was born January 00:01:04.700 --> 00:01:12.700 13, 1922 in southwestern Iowa. The town was Shannon Andorra, Shenandoah 00:01:13.299 --> 00:01:21.299 Iowa and I uh staying there through part of my college career. Why don't 00:01:22.590 --> 00:01:27.697 you tell me a little bit about your family. Um Well I have a wife Marie 00:01:27.730 --> 00:01:33.206 who happened to be with me here today and 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:41.239 we have four Children. All girls. And there was Maryland and Roxanne and 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:48.566 Valerie and lori, what about your family growing up? You mentioned you 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:51.986 came from Iowa, was that, did you, was it a farm? Did you grow up? Where 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:57.667 did you grow up in? You know how many small town, about 67 or 7000 00:01:57.700 --> 00:02:04.947 population. It was just a small town. I had a number of cousins who were 00:02:04.980 --> 00:02:11.446 from farming families and a lot of the people I knew were farmers and 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:16.147 farmers families. For many of us still have some cousins living in Iowa 00:02:16.180 --> 00:02:20.916 farms by the way. What about your parents? What what did they do? My 00:02:20.949 --> 00:02:28.267 father, when I was a kid growing up, he worked for the, for one of the 00:02:28.300 --> 00:02:36.300 railroads of the day, the wall bash railroad and he uh worked in the 00:02:37.090 --> 00:02:41.957 freight department of that railroad in Shenandoah. One of the side 00:02:41.990 --> 00:02:49.047 benefits that I was happy to receive was a railroad pass which gave me 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:55.247 transportation from Shenandoah to Omaha Nebraska. Oh Mahal was important 00:02:55.280 --> 00:03:00.916 to me because there was a university there and my first chance to go to 00:03:00.949 --> 00:03:03.346 college. 00:03:03.379 --> 00:03:09.207 What about your mom? My mother was a housewife, a former teacher. But both 00:03:09.240 --> 00:03:14.636 of our parents had been teachers at one time in their earlier careers. In 00:03:14.669 --> 00:03:19.566 fact, I think they met at a teacher's meeting or teachers convention in 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:27.006 shandong or one of the smaller towns in that community area of Iowa. My 00:03:27.039 --> 00:03:34.147 mother had four Children of which I was the oldest and uh, all my three 00:03:34.180 --> 00:03:41.166 sisters are living, wow good healthy family. What as a boy? Were you a 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:47.816 good student? Uh, well you would have to ask my teachers and so on. I 00:03:47.849 --> 00:03:53.077 guess I was a pretty good student. I got through high school and now what 00:03:53.110 --> 00:03:58.647 were your favorite subjects? My favorite subjects along the way, I suppose 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:00.886 english 00:04:00.919 --> 00:04:07.497 the language and I started picking up some foreign languages along the way. 00:04:07.530 --> 00:04:14.186 Such as uh something. I took some courses in latin and uh started picking 00:04:14.219 --> 00:04:22.219 up some spanish in college and later I did more spanish and our take 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:28.676 italian. And then uh, when there was a need for people who spoke foreign 00:04:28.709 --> 00:04:35.207 languages and the United States had used some young man, I was drafted and 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:37.606 sent to Italy. 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:44.166 How did you get interested in foreign languages in Iowa? Well, uh, in part 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:49.676 I suppose because uh, I'm 00:04:49.709 --> 00:04:56.606 on not a Kathleen nana roman catholic, but I earned a academic scholarship 00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:02.986 to a uh, Cameron roman catholic school at Creighton University in Omaha 00:05:03.019 --> 00:05:10.606 Nebraska. And so when I went there I already knew some 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:14.937 spanish language. Then I volunteered for a language school while I was in 00:05:14.970 --> 00:05:20.337 the military, I was in the military. A total of about three years. What 00:05:20.370 --> 00:05:24.937 about as a boy growing up? Um, what kind of things do you remember about 00:05:24.970 --> 00:05:30.226 your boyhood? That was the depression years, wasn't it? Oh yes, it was 00:05:30.259 --> 00:05:36.606 depression years, fortunately for me, my family wasn't touched too deeply 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:41.637 by the depression. My father had a job to the depression years. Such as 00:05:41.670 --> 00:05:49.670 his job was and we didn't want to visit materially for too much of if 00:05:53.230 --> 00:06:01.156 anything my sister is, they came along and only myself and my younger 00:06:01.189 --> 00:06:07.577 sister, I went to college. My younger sister of all places came to Arizona 00:06:07.610 --> 00:06:12.666 state University and a place called Tempe Arizona. I was already there on 00:06:12.699 --> 00:06:15.236 the faculty. 00:06:15.269 --> 00:06:19.697 You were kind of the leader of the family. Well it kind of turned out that 00:06:19.730 --> 00:06:24.866 way I suppose along the way. So as a boy growing up, did you have to work 00:06:24.899 --> 00:06:28.467 to, to help out the family or did you have any jobs? Did you have any job 00:06:28.500 --> 00:06:34.087 paid jobs as well? Yes in the newspaper I had a a, I got up at five 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:39.036 o'clock every morning for my last two years of high school and deliver 00:06:39.069 --> 00:06:44.767 newspapers. The des Moines register which had a um well known sports 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:49.616 section in its day. It was peach colored and stood out from all the other 00:06:49.649 --> 00:06:56.916 pages of the daily newspapers published into one. I'll of course and I, I 00:06:56.949 --> 00:07:03.277 did that as a regular thing through uh my two years remaining of high 00:07:03.310 --> 00:07:05.306 school. 00:07:05.339 --> 00:07:08.707 What did you as a boy, what did you think you wanted to do when you grew 00:07:08.740 --> 00:07:12.906 up? I, 00:07:12.939 --> 00:07:16.197 I guess I always thought about the possibility of being a school teacher 00:07:16.230 --> 00:07:24.230 and my parents said I've been in that online at one time and I was too, I 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:30.546 started college and that was in Omaha Nebraska. I had handed there for two 00:07:30.579 --> 00:07:38.579 years and then I was running out of money and I decided to go to Iowa 00:07:41.730 --> 00:07:47.887 state college at cedar rapids Iowa in a different corner of Iowa than I 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:55.207 had growing up in. And I, I went there too 00:07:55.240 --> 00:08:00.517 for what started, started my junior year and then I was drafted into the 00:08:00.550 --> 00:08:08.337 military service. I was drafted into the US army and later I after 00:08:08.370 --> 00:08:12.947 volunteering for what was called the army specialized training program. I 00:08:12.980 --> 00:08:19.246 was sent to the University of Chicago in a wartime language program and 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:25.366 studied italian language very intensively, believe it or not. They had a 00:08:25.399 --> 00:08:33.399 bunch of US G I. S of small midwestern towns setting the language of Dante 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:42.047 and other classical italian writers and philosophers and so on and in the 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:49.207 air. So I myself was uh first southern and then later in Northern Italy 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:55.136 and back again in southern Italy and Naples before leaving there. I found 00:08:55.169 --> 00:09:00.567 that fascinating despite some of the circumstances of the time, Why don't 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:04.486 you tell me a little bit about what was that like? How did you get over to 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:12.386 Italy by an american ship? They didn't inform us until we've been at sea 00:09:12.419 --> 00:09:19.067 for uh several days that we were going to Italy for. We had guest Italy. 00:09:19.100 --> 00:09:24.266 Uh some of the officers and men with some myself, they had gas that we're 00:09:24.299 --> 00:09:29.327 probably going to Italy but they didn't say for sure that we were and 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:35.917 landed Taranto Italy and in the and the southern very southern part and 00:09:35.950 --> 00:09:40.057 worked our way up to the north, farther farther north and into a place 00:09:40.090 --> 00:09:48.090 called san severo. And then after the conquest of northern Italy we were, 00:09:48.259 --> 00:09:54.707 I was transferred any aerial photo reconnaissance unit to Florence. Italy 00:09:54.740 --> 00:09:59.717 And I was in Florence for 10 months and stationed on the wall places the 00:09:59.750 --> 00:10:06.596 medical school campus of the University of Florence. And that was quite an 00:10:06.629 --> 00:10:11.967 exciting and experience for a young person like me. It must have been 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:17.047 coming from the midwest America to Italy. What was your first impression 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:21.506 when you got there? Well, I 00:10:21.539 --> 00:10:25.807 I had all kinds of impressions. I and now I don't know. Donald, I would 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:33.726 put pick out any one or two first impressions. It was a and I open her in 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.006 many ways to it To me 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:42.996 the food they gave us was probably american food that may have been sent 00:10:43.029 --> 00:10:47.797 to Italy with women and I have been given the details on how we were fed 00:10:47.830 --> 00:10:55.197 and if some details such as that, but probably was american in origin. And 00:10:55.230 --> 00:11:00.567 uh um certainly we were well fed enough and the member complained about 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:08.600 the at least the quantity of food that we were receiving. And Uh the I was 00:11:09.700 --> 00:11:15.927 put in charge of about a unit of about 25 enlisted men. And it really I 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:23.960 ran a post office in Italy. I ran it in Florence and replaced a technical 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:32.876 sergeant who was from Hood river Oregon. And um he had been in north 00:11:32.909 --> 00:11:40.909 africa during earlier during the World War two. And I had been slower in 00:11:41.679 --> 00:11:47.006 coming in because I was younger, a few years younger than than he was. 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:51.276 You ran the post office. So yeah, yeah, it was a male and distribution. We 00:11:51.309 --> 00:11:55.766 called it the mail and distribute no stamps, practically everything we 00:11:55.799 --> 00:12:02.846 handled was classified in a military sense secret, top secret, that sort 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:07.896 of thing. So you didn't really see any of the combat or anything anyway, 00:12:07.929 --> 00:12:12.256 combat combat. No, I was not in a in a combat. I had been trained for 00:12:12.289 --> 00:12:20.289 possible combat on the shooting range in uh Illinois and later in north 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:28.287 Carolina and what not. I wasn't called upon for combat. If the government 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:35.259 of Italy under Benito Mussolini was beginning to get ready to capitulate. 00:12:35.539 --> 00:12:37.539 Did you meet and interact with the native? 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:47.136 one of the first thing I did was to pick up the pleasant habit that they 00:12:47.169 --> 00:12:54.167 called passage ari I mean walking and going for a walk and I became 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:57.506 friendly with a um 00:12:57.539 --> 00:13:05.539 um a pharmacist, a young pharmacist, a male and san severo Italy. And we 00:13:06.980 --> 00:13:14.606 would meet in downtown san severo on the eastern coast of the buddha villa. 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:22.639 And we would go walking almost every afternoon late in the afternoon and 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:32.240 the pasta jaro is a well known habit and custom in many parts of Italy. 00:13:35.740 --> 00:13:41.177 So how long were you in Italy altogether? I was there for a year and a 00:13:41.210 --> 00:13:49.047 half. And then the war ended and the war ended when I was For for for us 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:57.080 in Europe, the war ended ended in, I guess it was in May of 1945. 00:13:57.139 --> 00:14:05.037 And then uh we were in the Northern Italy so and the Germans held on 00:14:05.070 --> 00:14:13.070 fighting very bitterly in Northern Italy and the war there continued until 00:14:13.340 --> 00:14:15.907 19 00:14:15.940 --> 00:14:20.207 For late in 1945. 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:25.327 So then um When did you come back to the United States? I came back in 00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:33.307 time for Christmas of 1945. I came back on an american aircraft carrier 00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:41.226 that had been in combat in the pacific theater of operations And I came 00:14:41.259 --> 00:14:48.217 back from Naples Italy to new york city. And okay, I still remember very 00:14:48.250 --> 00:14:52.657 vividly going by the statue of liberty in the harbor of new york city as 00:14:52.690 --> 00:14:59.417 we came in and then I got my discharge and believe it or not, I went back 00:14:59.450 --> 00:15:04.006 to school, it was this time not the 00:15:04.039 --> 00:15:06.207 army 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:11.356 language school, it was a civilian school but back at the University of 00:15:11.389 --> 00:15:16.016 Chicago. I am my records were there already, they had been sent there 00:15:16.049 --> 00:15:22.207 during and the war America as I just started in school there and I later 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:28.256 earned a master's and PhD degree from the University of Chicago. And what 00:15:28.289 --> 00:15:34.746 were you studying there? I, I had thought of myself as not in american 00:15:34.779 --> 00:15:41.567 history and when I first started going to college but I guess my service 00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:47.866 in the military and and a university professor at Chicago by the name of 00:15:47.899 --> 00:15:53.496 Charles Miriam kind of changed me Charles Miriam had been elected 00:15:53.529 --> 00:15:58.167 president of the american Political Science Association. He had been in 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:05.297 Italy during World War One and he is very well known throughout the city. 00:16:05.330 --> 00:16:10.396 He ran for mayor of Chicago unsuccessfully. He ran as a republican in a 00:16:10.429 --> 00:16:15.606 democratic city and so he didn't make it, but he had a million stories to 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:21.947 tell. A young guy like me about his career. He had been in the the Signal 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:29.980 corps in Rome Italy in the first World War and I kind of followed the uh 00:16:30.009 --> 00:16:38.009 some years later, much in his uh path you might say. He remember I was on 00:16:39.330 --> 00:16:47.330 the Chicago city council for several years and I followed up by becoming a 00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:53.047 councilman in the city of Tempe Arizona where Arizona State University is 00:16:53.080 --> 00:16:59.726 located. And also I 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:07.759 hold up and and on the other city council and by mayor as well. Um Going 00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:13.167 back to your education, why did you decide to go on and get your masters 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:17.806 and your PhD um 00:17:17.839 --> 00:17:23.066 to pick up the the United States government made it possible for G. I. S. 00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:30.006 Like myself to get an education if they wanted to. And since I wanted to 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:35.306 I've been doing that until I was drafted for active duty and during the 00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:43.339 war I went back to school right away and hardly a day go by. But while I 00:17:43.339 --> 00:17:48.556 was in the classroom somewhere. So did you just, you stayed straight 00:17:48.589 --> 00:17:56.097 through. Um And I went home from the time I got off the aircraft carrier 00:17:56.130 --> 00:18:03.367 in uh new york city, I went home by a railroad and then I took another 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:09.836 railroad train to um Chicago and this time as a civilian without the 00:18:09.869 --> 00:18:14.516 military uniform on. So what were your plans, what are you gonna do with 00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:20.117 all that education? I thought I might teach someday and I have, I taught 00:18:20.150 --> 00:18:26.506 nearly 30 years at Arizona State University Tempe in the Phoenix area. 00:18:26.539 --> 00:18:31.756 Well what what brought you out to Arizona? A signed contract with somebody 00:18:31.789 --> 00:18:36.006 that I don't think I've ever heard of it at that time. Somebody named 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:41.566 Grady Gammage who was president of uh what had been a teacher's college at 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:49.599 in Tempe Arizona. It it was changing slowly from a small agricultural area 00:18:54.119 --> 00:19:01.036 and doing more of an urbanized area and I uh was changing with it you 00:19:01.069 --> 00:19:08.026 might say. Um well how did you hear about it or what I registered with the 00:19:08.059 --> 00:19:14.796 placement office at the University of Chicago and my mom, University or 00:19:14.829 --> 00:19:20.867 college as a placement office for potential teachers and other types of 00:19:20.900 --> 00:19:26.226 people who get college work and degrees and so on and then wanted to go 00:19:26.259 --> 00:19:32.347 and make a career and and changed and changed our lives. Have you ever 00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:39.367 been to Arizona before? No, I had never been to Arizona before and I have 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:45.407 been away one a little over a year since then I a taught as a visiting 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:50.536 professor on one year at the university of California in santa Barbara on 00:19:50.569 --> 00:19:58.157 the pacific coast. And uh we all went over there all all six prices. So 00:19:58.190 --> 00:20:03.976 what what year was it that you came to Arizona 1950. And what was your 00:20:04.009 --> 00:20:12.009 first job here? My first job was as a, what they called a 00:20:16.240 --> 00:20:21.546 usually when you started out as an assistant professor but they gave me 00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:25.776 even a lesser right now. What was it called instructor? I was an 00:20:25.809 --> 00:20:31.897 instructor for I guess three years after that I was promoted to his 00:20:31.930 --> 00:20:39.930 assistant professor and then began they own your um uh steps to become a 00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:46.766 professor eventually. And so I was the first and an instructor three years 00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:51.576 and then assistant professor Which was three years and then associate 00:20:51.609 --> 00:20:59.609 professor and finally professor of what? Political science and I ah you 00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:09.279 know by taking a job at a small town um college in Arizona that I was in 00:21:10.230 --> 00:21:16.417 most demand in my teaching ability for history, not the government, not 00:21:16.450 --> 00:21:20.957 political science. That came a little bit later. So I thought such courses 00:21:20.990 --> 00:21:25.947 in american history and Western civilization. I had to study ancient 00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:30.486 Greece and Rome. But fortunately I've been in ancient Rome but not in 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:35.917 ancient Greece. And so I 00:21:35.950 --> 00:21:40.296 did teach history for a number of years and eventually I worked my way 00:21:40.329 --> 00:21:45.726 into sequence of political science courses. What was your first impression 00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:49.407 when you first came out to Arizona. 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:53.006 I 00:21:53.039 --> 00:22:01.039 I don't know that I have any first impressions uh that I would pick out. I 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:05.107 I 00:22:05.140 --> 00:22:11.836 had no idea I would stay in like five years or 50 years and, but I didn't 00:22:11.869 --> 00:22:19.306 today on longer and longer. Um The salaries we remember law relatively low. 00:22:19.339 --> 00:22:24.857 They were better in such more prosperous states as California. And as I 00:22:24.890 --> 00:22:30.937 found out particularly by that year expanded santa barbara. And, but that 00:22:30.970 --> 00:22:35.347 came later on. And the longer I stayed in Arizona, the more I got to like 00:22:35.380 --> 00:22:40.667 it and subsequently did I have stayed here a long time, describe for me, 00:22:40.700 --> 00:22:43.986 what was a s, you, what wasn't even A. S. U. What was Arizona State 00:22:44.019 --> 00:22:48.677 College like when you got here? Well, it had had been a teacher's college. 00:22:48.710 --> 00:22:54.756 Still had some remnants of that. And the teachers college organization 00:22:54.789 --> 00:22:59.927 there, there was a training school for prospective elementary and high 00:22:59.960 --> 00:23:07.597 school teachers and uh my wife taught in uh such a school herself at a 00:23:07.630 --> 00:23:14.476 later time for several years. And uh, I thought my petition was all at the 00:23:14.509 --> 00:23:19.306 college level. I thought a good many evening classes, mostly in 00:23:19.339 --> 00:23:24.717 constitutional government and located in high schools and the Salt River 00:23:24.750 --> 00:23:32.006 valley. And I thought of mesa and phoenix Scottsdale and other communities. 00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:36.707 It was extra paid at that time. Tell me what was your first salary when 00:23:36.740 --> 00:23:41.986 you first came here? Do you remember that? Come on and remains in my 00:23:42.019 --> 00:23:46.937 memory. $3300 3300 00:23:46.970 --> 00:23:53.857 dollars. And but they did make it possible for me to teach summers and 00:23:53.890 --> 00:23:59.907 evening classes and the evening classes uh um were of interest to me along 00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:04.217 with the possibility of summer teaching Just for posterity. That was 00:24:04.250 --> 00:24:08.806 $3,300 a year. Right? 00:24:08.839 --> 00:24:14.107 Some people listening to this and the future might not know that. 00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:19.066 Um What was your impression of what Arizona or Tempe was like when you 00:24:19.099 --> 00:24:27.099 first got here? Mhm. Well, okay. I uh enjoyed 00:24:30.140 --> 00:24:36.887 the acquaintances. Uh I mean I I met a lot of people in different walks of 00:24:36.920 --> 00:24:43.157 life that I had not had contact with much before and they weren't all 00:24:43.190 --> 00:24:50.996 military people, even part time military people like myself. And uh that 00:24:51.029 --> 00:24:55.266 gave me an eye opening experience, interest 00:24:55.299 --> 00:25:02.016 in learning about people. I have to tell you some psychology and the like 00:25:02.049 --> 00:25:08.627 along the way. So I had a pretty broad education I suppose and I said some 00:25:08.660 --> 00:25:15.786 psychology and uh quite a wide variety of experience. This whole valley 00:25:15.819 --> 00:25:23.677 was a lot more rural in 1950, wasn't it? Oh yes. Oh yes. The this valley 00:25:23.710 --> 00:25:30.667 depended pretty much upon agriculture and that simply blossomed after 00:25:30.700 --> 00:25:35.266 World War Two, World War Two made a lot of change in Arizona. I think that 00:25:35.299 --> 00:25:43.299 sometimes neglected or overlooked the impact of the war years upon Arizona 00:25:43.579 --> 00:25:50.427 , more people came in. Uh There were people who came from all over the 00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:54.627 United stations, I say to make their homes in the area or at least and not 00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:58.326 to stay a long time to make their own, but at least it's a, a short time 00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:02.407 only made some impact while they were here. 00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:09.357 And how big was the campus when you came here? Campus was around 5000 uh 00:26:09.390 --> 00:26:17.390 when I came and it was changing. Also the city of Tempe was beginning to 00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:20.236 grow 00:26:20.269 --> 00:26:27.726 at that time too. How big was the city? But the city was more like uh six 00:26:27.759 --> 00:26:34.647 or 7000 population. It wasn't long until Tempe was larger, then larger 00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:42.680 than my hometown. I grew up in southwestern Iowa And the 1950s, 60s, 70s. 00:26:44.539 --> 00:26:49.157 Here's a great population change or western states. Like Arizona, the 00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:52.476 west was really beginning to grow 00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:55.986 and the campus was a lot different than to you mentioned. Grady damage was 00:26:56.019 --> 00:27:03.167 the one that hired you. What was he like? He was a slightly gruff learned 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:08.486 ban. His background was education and he came from a teacher's college 00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:12.976 background. You Bennett and what is now en au Northern Arizona University 00:27:13.009 --> 00:27:20.907 in Flagstaff just before coming to at 10 p.m. A. S. U. And uh, it was 00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:26.927 pleasant to get acquainted with him and he had um HD Richardson Harold 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:32.647 Richardson as his second, the command you might say at that time. And 00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:39.707 Richardson was also in the teacher's college mold. 00:27:39.740 --> 00:27:43.266 Um What was the department, what department did you work for when you 00:27:43.299 --> 00:27:48.137 arrived arrived? I worked for a department. It was a combined department, 00:27:48.170 --> 00:27:56.170 social studies, social studies consisted of history, political science and 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:02.476 did not include economics. Economics was over and new college of business 00:28:02.509 --> 00:28:09.907 , as is the case with some other universities. And 00:28:09.940 --> 00:28:17.857 also we had psychology was not part of our makeup either. Psychology was 00:28:17.890 --> 00:28:23.387 with education again in the teacher's college more. We remained at State 00:28:23.420 --> 00:28:30.306 Teachers College part of the time for many years thereafter. 00:28:30.339 --> 00:28:37.236 What was your first office like? First office was 00:28:37.269 --> 00:28:43.526 and pretty much in the central part of the campus, they began to quite a 00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:49.097 building program and I see my, I've been putting in a new building for a 00:28:49.130 --> 00:28:55.976 while about every year and uh slowly but surely I began to more recently 00:28:56.009 --> 00:29:04.009 constructed buildings and leaving the older buildings behind and the I 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:10.986 enjoyed the changes in location, uh usually have more advantages in our 00:29:11.019 --> 00:29:18.957 background. I took advantage of being in a location. Uh Tempe a college 00:29:18.990 --> 00:29:26.306 town just a few miles from the town that was becoming large, urbanized, 00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:32.967 Western city, that was phoenix. And so I got to phoenix whenever I could 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:38.296 in the circumstances permitted it and began to get acquainted with the 00:29:38.329 --> 00:29:42.046 wide variety of people. One of the first people I didn't get acquainted 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:47.877 with us the name Gold Goldwater Barry Goldwater, he was a member of the uh 00:29:47.910 --> 00:29:52.347 phoenix city council and he was one of the phoenix people I didn't get 00:29:52.380 --> 00:29:58.226 acquainted with and nearly Uh they uh my last year of teaching something, 00:29:58.259 --> 00:30:04.447 almost 30 years later, Barry Goldwater was a guest lecturer in among 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:08.726 several of my classes in political science. Goldwater and I mean I haven't 00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:16.097 been in the US Senate for many years and had a a national reputation, not 00:30:16.130 --> 00:30:20.127 an international reputation by them. What about did you ever meet Carl 00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:28.160 Hayden? Well, Carl Hayden was a man who had been born In the year 1877 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:38.119 in Tempe and he had, his father had founded and what became Arizona State 00:30:40.130 --> 00:30:44.806 University and Carl Hayden, 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:51.006 his father and others of the time were really pioneers. Western pioneers 00:30:51.039 --> 00:30:59.039 and they are on the banks of the Salt River and they um sort of a new kind 00:30:59.809 --> 00:31:06.717 of education and became an Arizona state University, became a research 00:31:06.750 --> 00:31:13.066 university and no longer was a teacher's college alone. And there was 00:31:13.099 --> 00:31:18.766 still a teaching element. Yes, but not at, no, I didn't exclusively aim at 00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:21.707 making new teachers. 00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:25.076 You mentioned that, that you got involved in some city politics too. You 00:31:25.109 --> 00:31:31.486 want to tell us a little about that? Well, I found that Tempe was governed 00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:39.107 by the mayor council type of city government. And uh I had come out of an 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:45.377 educational and work experience background where the council manager plan 00:31:45.410 --> 00:31:51.427 was becoming prevalent and in the council manager plan, there is an 00:31:51.460 --> 00:31:58.246 elected mayor and elected city council. The manager is a usually a career 00:31:58.279 --> 00:32:05.877 person can be a woman or a man. Certainly today and the manager is really 00:32:05.910 --> 00:32:13.397 the administrator of the city or town. And today in Arizona phoenix, 00:32:13.430 --> 00:32:21.430 Tucson, most of the larger cities of Arizona are council manager 00:32:22.140 --> 00:32:30.140 And so I I was a supporter of this. And in 1960 00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:38.006 three, just after I had left the council, I was on an elected commission 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:43.187 that wrote and what is now the President Tempe city charter. And then we 00:32:43.220 --> 00:32:49.107 have a council manager plan in operation here in Tempe. 00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:53.147 What years were you on the city council? I was on the city council for a 00:32:53.180 --> 00:32:58.887 total of four years. Not a long time, but still long enough to make an 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:06.920 imprint I think. And I was on for four years. The last year of which the, 00:33:08.059 --> 00:33:12.986 the other six members of the council elected me as a presiding officer, I 00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:19.867 was called the mayor. And what years was that? I only counsel from 1958 to 00:33:19.900 --> 00:33:22.107 1962. 00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:28.576 And the last year of which I was elected mayor. Right after that, I had 00:33:28.609 --> 00:33:33.326 received the invitation down to teach at the university of California 00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:39.117 santa Barbara and I accepted that and we've gone for a year and then I 00:33:39.150 --> 00:33:46.677 returned to a S. U. After my year in California. I haven't your experience 00:33:46.710 --> 00:33:51.586 on the, the city council impact on your teaching duties at the university 00:33:51.619 --> 00:33:59.619 was? Well, I think there was an impact. Uh, certainly 00:34:00.740 --> 00:34:08.740 I, one impact you can see today. We have a a mayor of Tempe after Tempe. 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:17.039 I'm growing a great deal in many ways university too. Uh A person with a 00:34:17.570 --> 00:34:23.177 issue credentials is now a 00:34:23.210 --> 00:34:31.210 The mayor of the oppressor Mayor 19 Uh 2002. uh President Mayor Demby Neil 00:34:32.210 --> 00:34:36.967 Giuliano. But you were teaching about political science but you were 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:45.000 actually living it too. You know, you could say that. Yes. Uh huh. 00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:51.566 I saw lots of changes. One that changed was that more and more women were 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:58.336 becoming involved in government. Arizona Haven now has a governor who was 00:34:58.369 --> 00:35:04.796 the woman. Did you ever think you'd see that? I wasn't too surprised I 00:35:04.829 --> 00:35:10.486 shouldn't have been. I think I had some ideas that might be coming someday. 00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:15.506 Not only temporary but many places. 00:35:15.539 --> 00:35:20.727 Um As you look back over your your long career of 30 years of teaching. 00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:25.307 Are there any events that stand out in your mind? 00:35:25.340 --> 00:35:33.340 Um I found myself in some controversy in the community. 00:35:34.940 --> 00:35:42.940 We had a professor at A. S. U. And uh and the philosophy department who 00:35:44.380 --> 00:35:51.606 became from my rather controversial figure during the 19 00:35:51.639 --> 00:35:59.639 forties and fifties and he became pretty well known but not too popular in 00:36:00.900 --> 00:36:05.796 some parts of the community. However the faculty committee of which I was 00:36:05.829 --> 00:36:12.157 the chairman and decided that he should be kept on for a longer period. He 00:36:12.190 --> 00:36:18.896 was granted academia. We called tenure and he remained here for a number 00:36:18.929 --> 00:36:26.396 of I'm here. Who was that? His name is Morris Starsky 00:36:26.429 --> 00:36:32.376 And he was pretty well known person here at one time. He's been gone 00:36:32.409 --> 00:36:34.697 elsewhere. 00:36:34.730 --> 00:36:40.626 Considerable period. What about in the 60s when there was a lot of 00:36:40.659 --> 00:36:45.767 protesting on campus about Vietnam? There was a considerable period of 00:36:45.800 --> 00:36:52.767 protests. Vietnam. Yes, that's right. Vietnam was an unpopular war in many 00:36:52.800 --> 00:37:00.097 ways. And that had not been the case with World War I and two. World War. 00:37:00.130 --> 00:37:04.907 That wouldn't have impacted Arizona state very much. But World War Two 00:37:04.940 --> 00:37:12.940 certainly did. In fact many more people. And uh 00:37:13.090 --> 00:37:17.256 and then the Post warriors. I say it turned out to be very important. And 00:37:17.289 --> 00:37:24.566 the growth and change here at A. S. U. But what about in the 60s? That was 00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:32.599 that kind of a tumultuous period of The 60s were pretty tumultuous 00:37:32.900 --> 00:37:38.517 themselves and society was changing. And part of that of course was the 00:37:38.550 --> 00:37:44.217 change where women were demanding and receiving and more of an active role 00:37:44.250 --> 00:37:50.456 in society than they had before Earlier. Women had one place to go if they 00:37:50.489 --> 00:37:55.456 didn't want to stay at home and work the classroom. And that was just 00:37:55.489 --> 00:38:01.796 about it. And uh there were some women who did go to places like law 00:38:01.829 --> 00:38:07.606 school and then couldn't get jobs at one time. And that has begun to 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:10.086 change. 00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:17.986 Did you see much with the civil rights of the, Oh yes uh issue. Well, the 00:38:18.019 --> 00:38:25.796 Tempe itself had been uh segregated racially at one time and that began to 00:38:25.829 --> 00:38:32.986 change in the 1950s. The big change occurred in the 1960s. And during that 00:38:33.019 --> 00:38:37.177 time, number of civil rights actions at the national level, which of 00:38:37.210 --> 00:38:43.486 course, uh, impact them back to the, what was happening in Arizona as well. 00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:50.736 And so he began to see people of Hispanic and other nationalities and 00:38:50.769 --> 00:38:57.486 backgrounds, languages getting into school. I saw something about a 00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:01.546 protest at on campus in the, I guess it was in the fifties or early 00:39:01.579 --> 00:39:06.626 sixties about um, civil rights. That's the chicano movement. I think it 00:39:06.659 --> 00:39:14.659 was. The chicano movement was uh, 00:39:15.550 --> 00:39:21.686 with the Hispanic people from central America, South America and the 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:27.776 caribbean area. And plus uh some from Spain where many had originated 00:39:27.809 --> 00:39:34.686 their ancestors originated earlier. And it began society will begin to. 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:42.287 Did you change? And today many people living in Arizona working in Arizona 00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:48.997 are spanish speaking or they may speak two languages. What about on campus 00:39:49.030 --> 00:39:53.296 ? Did you see those protests going on? Or did you start teaching about 00:39:53.329 --> 00:39:57.046 some of those things? There 00:39:57.079 --> 00:40:03.037 were some protests from time to time, but uh, they didn't become very 00:40:03.070 --> 00:40:09.396 disruptive. Not a issue was a relatively calm quiet campus when some 00:40:09.429 --> 00:40:17.429 campuses are much more agitated and possibly it was the Arizona remoteness 00:40:19.710 --> 00:40:24.077 from much of the american population worked for a while here in the west. 00:40:24.110 --> 00:40:30.057 And we're not and we didn't have very many large cities for a long time 00:40:30.090 --> 00:40:32.477 here in Arizona. 00:40:32.510 --> 00:40:35.666 What about some of the other changes you were here when it changed the 00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:39.776 name changed? And tell us about that the name change for Arizona State 00:40:39.809 --> 00:40:46.227 University. Yes. It had been a teacher's college at one time as we've said. 00:40:46.260 --> 00:40:52.876 And uh, then there were movements bills introduced into the Arizona 00:40:52.909 --> 00:40:58.066 legislature going for a name change and usually with the word university 00:40:58.099 --> 00:41:06.099 being added. And finally it was, there was Uh, measure placed on the 00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:10.776 Arizona ballot in the year 1958 00:41:10.809 --> 00:41:16.086 and I don't have been here eight years at the time and it passed, there 00:41:16.119 --> 00:41:22.657 were a number of a issue. Ah people involved. My wife Marie was one of the 00:41:22.690 --> 00:41:29.537 people who did some of the public speaking to to help 00:41:29.570 --> 00:41:37.570 convince people who consider yes vote at that time for a name change. It 00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:43.477 was successful and we've had Arizona State University since that time. Um 00:41:43.510 --> 00:41:45.927 , well, didn't you tell me a little about your wife? How did you meet her 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.606 ? I met her as a fellow graduate student at the University of Chicago 00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:58.639 after World War Two. And she had been a wave during the war, women in the 00:41:59.570 --> 00:42:07.570 naval military and she had what was called the Gi bill of Rights. And as I 00:42:08.650 --> 00:42:15.267 did, so we both had a chance to go to school and and we both have ended up 00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:20.816 in teaching careers. Mine has been lifetime or her part time. She shared 00:42:20.849 --> 00:42:28.037 it with four Children. So she came to Arizona with you then. Oh yeah Made 00:42:28.070 --> 00:42:35.066 the whole trip from Chicago and one car. Did you have kids then too? Yeah 00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:41.077 we had maybe my mother came along just to help my wife out on the trip. 00:42:41.110 --> 00:42:46.467 It's been an interesting trip. Yeah it was a busy trip. 00:42:46.500 --> 00:42:50.077 Mhm. So did you ever think that you'd stay this long when you came out 00:42:50.110 --> 00:42:58.110 here in 1950? Oh no not really. I I like that a lot of people I thought 00:42:58.139 --> 00:43:05.997 that after a few years of trying it out here in Arizona and there I would 00:43:06.030 --> 00:43:11.037 put my put in an application elsewhere and go elsewhere. Just never 00:43:11.070 --> 00:43:17.347 happened that way. I this data and I was satisfied and happy enough to one 00:43:17.380 --> 00:43:21.526 more year at that time. They only offered us one year contracts. So I 00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:26.407 stayed on, what why do you think that you stayed? What what was it about? 00:43:26.440 --> 00:43:33.057 H. U. Or Arizona opportunity? It was changing. You were never pigeonholed 00:43:33.090 --> 00:43:39.287 forever. And some people get into kind of a rut. You can get into a rut at 00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:44.506 universities and a lot of other places and what but I never felt that I 00:43:44.539 --> 00:43:51.456 was done a dead end rut. I had Arizona State University. Mhm. There was an 00:43:51.489 --> 00:43:57.997 opportunity. I thought I would apply myself and try a little more a little 00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:03.046 harder as you as you look back. What do you see as your greatest 00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:07.356 achievement or most interesting achievement 00:44:07.389 --> 00:44:14.586 I suppose giving a little uh tenure to a new department of Political 00:44:14.619 --> 00:44:18.867 science, there had not been a separate department when I came, we were 00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:24.367 part of social studies department. RK Willis was the department chairman. 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:31.017 He came from american history background and I came from a political 00:44:31.050 --> 00:44:34.157 science background 00:44:34.190 --> 00:44:40.927 and D. R Van Patten, he was from history background too. He was the first 00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:46.517 person. And Arnold tilden also did some teaching in both history and 00:44:46.550 --> 00:44:53.327 political science. When did that come about? That came about in the 1950s 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:56.856 and shortly thereafter, 00:44:56.889 --> 00:45:03.936 was that a hard thing or how did you know, there was no 00:45:03.969 --> 00:45:10.566 particular opposition or um unfortunately somebody had had the foresight 00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:18.599 before I came to put some new course titles in the university catalog and 00:45:18.690 --> 00:45:24.557 we were beginning to make moves towards the department of Political 00:45:24.590 --> 00:45:31.827 Science even more before I came and they were just carried out when I came. 00:45:31.860 --> 00:45:35.956 Did you have something you wanted Marie wanted 00:45:35.989 --> 00:45:43.717 um that you wrote on hand, you wrote a book, Carl Hayden, you know? Yeah, 00:45:43.750 --> 00:45:50.537 I didn't I didn't talk about that very much. You want to pick it up. 00:45:50.570 --> 00:45:58.570 One of the people that I became very much interested in was the career for 00:45:59.019 --> 00:46:07.019 center Carl Hayden of Arizona. He um I've been been born in Tempe. His 00:46:07.110 --> 00:46:15.110 father had been a founder of the town and Nate and grew up. He had some 00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:26.659 siblings and some sisters and he was, he ran, he made a kind of career of 00:46:30.039 --> 00:46:36.896 public service. I was increased to do so and I realized there was a gap 00:46:36.929 --> 00:46:43.327 that had uh, become more and more, um, 00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:49.847 my consciousness And the longer I was here, No one had written on Hayden. 00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:54.677 There was nothing of what you want to call a scholarly book or even a 00:46:54.710 --> 00:47:02.037 news magazine articles on Hayden. Yet he was more and more powerful 00:47:02.070 --> 00:47:08.827 position, more influential position in congress. He had been elected a 00:47:08.860 --> 00:47:16.860 city rather town councilman for Tempe and 1910 00:47:18.940 --> 00:47:26.940 era. And he had been uh, county sheriff, uh, Maricopa county. And so he 00:47:30.460 --> 00:47:38.460 has this in his background. And he had attended stanford University and 00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:44.477 came almost on very, very close to receiving a degree from stanford, which 00:47:44.510 --> 00:47:52.510 was really the place to be in, in that era of american education. And he 00:47:54.960 --> 00:47:57.046 uh, 00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:03.637 mm hmm, had been elected to Congress the year Arizona became a state 1912 00:48:03.670 --> 00:48:11.347 And he remained in the US House of Representatives from 1912 to 1926. In 00:48:11.380 --> 00:48:17.526 1926, he was elected to the United States Senate And he remained and re 00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:25.559 elected every six years thereafter until the 1960s when he did retire from 00:48:27.070 --> 00:48:34.396 congress all altogether. He had a great impact on the uh West and 00:48:34.429 --> 00:48:40.287 particularly in terms of water, water of the Colorado River were among his 00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:44.967 um, most interesting 00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:52.727 concerns during his career and the west began to be a place for dams, the 00:48:52.760 --> 00:49:00.760 hoover dam and other dams were built in Arizona and other states 00:49:02.170 --> 00:49:10.170 particularly here in the west and he uh 00:49:10.179 --> 00:49:17.486 the West became more of an agricultural era as well, population started to 00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:25.519 flow in and Arizona took advantage of that. Now there are water resource 00:49:27.889 --> 00:49:35.117 movements in many parts of the world taking place. And when did you write 00:49:35.150 --> 00:49:42.666 the book about him? I started that probably almost from day one. My first 00:49:42.699 --> 00:49:48.106 arrived here and it wasn't conscious. I've been thinking about writing a 00:49:48.139 --> 00:49:55.747 book someday and um, but I was encouraged by um people, the issue 00:49:55.780 --> 00:50:02.026 administration and by a fellow department members, students and the like 00:50:02.059 --> 00:50:10.059 and to work on the Hayden career Aiden was, became a more and more 00:50:10.849 --> 00:50:17.296 powerful figure as he went along. Did you actually interview him? Oh yes. 00:50:17.329 --> 00:50:24.836 I I interviewed 100 or so people face to face uh for this. Those 00:50:24.869 --> 00:50:30.947 interviews are located now in the archives of Arizona State University and 00:50:30.980 --> 00:50:35.856 in a building that's named for Carl Hayden's father who was Charles 00:50:35.889 --> 00:50:39.827 trumble Hayden. And 00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:45.606 those interviews are there And some, some are quoted at some length in the 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:49.296 book itself. Tell me about interviewing Carl Hayden, Where when and where 00:50:49.329 --> 00:50:57.329 did you do that? I interviewed him on campus or where he was living after 00:50:57.710 --> 00:51:03.916 his retirement which was in Tempe. He came back to Arizona to live. So 00:51:03.949 --> 00:51:09.747 many United States congressman uh from far off places are maybe elected 00:51:09.780 --> 00:51:17.666 and but I haven't come once they are defeated or retire. They seldom go 00:51:17.699 --> 00:51:23.017 home to live. He did. He came back actually to to live in campaign and 00:51:23.050 --> 00:51:30.206 remain here for several more years and still quite active in that period 00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:37.606 of of time. What was he like when you interviewed him? He was, he was a 00:51:37.639 --> 00:51:45.639 storyteller. He told stories, uh some of which are recounted in the in the 00:51:45.650 --> 00:51:52.727 book, Which was published by the University Press of America in 1994. 00:51:52.760 --> 00:52:00.760 And as available and a number of areas uh libraries around the state of 00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:06.367 Arizona and elsewhere. Library of Congress. It wasn't published until 94. 00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:12.077 You must have worked on that a long time. Oh yeah. Is that why I was busy 00:52:12.110 --> 00:52:16.836 with them for a long time. There were personal interviews, a considerable 00:52:16.869 --> 00:52:24.869 amount of travel was involved and I have almost on coast to coast and that 00:52:27.650 --> 00:52:32.267 and became well known. Arizona became more and more of a state people 00:52:32.300 --> 00:52:38.356 listen to two as well. Goldwater became a figure along with Hayden and two 00:52:38.389 --> 00:52:43.927 very powerful figures other some other people. Ernest Mcfarland became 00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:51.960 well known for the democrats and he became more and more known. He was the 00:52:52.750 --> 00:53:00.750 governor of Arizona and one time in his career. 00:53:01.150 --> 00:53:05.166 Well, I'm surprised you didn't mention that book. Something more memorable 00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:10.767 any other good questions that we need to ask him. I yeah, I was ross tell 00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:15.106 us a little bit about some of your colleagues in the political science 00:53:15.139 --> 00:53:21.307 department or the social studies department Who was here in the 50s and 00:53:21.340 --> 00:53:26.017 60s that you recall. 00:53:26.050 --> 00:53:29.916 Um 00:53:29.949 --> 00:53:35.497 I came into a social studies department which was history and political 00:53:35.530 --> 00:53:39.617 science. 00:53:39.650 --> 00:53:44.217 Political science without person to teach the political science courses is 00:53:44.250 --> 00:53:52.157 first and then I took over the teaching of most of those courses. My 00:53:52.190 --> 00:54:00.190 course is involved american government in the main and constitution, the 00:54:01.210 --> 00:54:09.210 constitution of the United States and uh Arizona and I 00:54:10.730 --> 00:54:18.267 one year I had a you can do a lot of extra stay and uh California state 00:54:18.300 --> 00:54:22.606 government. That area was in santa barbara. 00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:25.827 So were there any people in your department that works especially 00:54:25.860 --> 00:54:33.860 memorable? RK Willis was american historian. He was trained in the, in 00:54:34.599 --> 00:54:42.236 history at the University of California Berkeley and he and topped the 00:54:42.269 --> 00:54:49.657 latin american history to a considerable degree. Van Pen was more american. 00:54:49.690 --> 00:54:56.126 Arnold Hilton taught american history for a long time. Invited Dean of 00:54:56.159 --> 00:55:01.296 the College of Liberal Arts here at the university 00:55:01.329 --> 00:55:04.506 Paul Hubbard, one of the 00:55:04.539 --> 00:55:07.936 paul Hubbard, Hubbard, paul Hubbard. You have some other people who came 00:55:07.969 --> 00:55:15.969 along, paul harbored uh the american historian and his field was the 00:55:16.869 --> 00:55:24.869 american civil war era and he taught for many years, just about the same 00:55:26.769 --> 00:55:33.166 length of time as I did. He's now retired. Um Your wife mentioned when you 00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:35.997 first came here, you stayed at Victory Village. You want to tell us a 00:55:36.030 --> 00:55:41.617 little bit what that was about. Yeah, there was some post war housing made 00:55:41.650 --> 00:55:49.347 available and to to on former Gi's like myself called Victory Village is 00:55:49.380 --> 00:55:57.380 president location of Grady Gammage Auditorium on the current campus. 00:55:59.539 --> 00:56:07.539 And we lived there. It was army top barracks, wooden barracks. We've been 00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:15.559 there for several years and and then moved into ah nearby residential 00:56:17.929 --> 00:56:20.787 areas. 00:56:20.820 --> 00:56:23.816 Did you ever think when you came here that you'd see the kind of changes 00:56:23.849 --> 00:56:29.767 that you've seen at the university and the city of Tempe? I had no idea 00:56:29.800 --> 00:56:37.800 what the future my brain and I guess I just, I want to be part of it. 00:56:38.329 --> 00:56:42.387 Um, 00:56:42.420 --> 00:56:47.166 I noticed that you want to just answer that one more time about how you've 00:56:47.199 --> 00:56:50.497 seen it change. 00:56:50.530 --> 00:56:57.396 Oh, I've seen lots of changes. Give me a couple of minutes to jot down. 00:56:57.429 --> 00:57:04.557 Yeah. There are changes of and and the act activities of government have 00:57:04.590 --> 00:57:08.997 been considerable and 00:57:09.030 --> 00:57:11.396 mm hmm, 00:57:11.429 --> 00:57:17.986 tim Tempe didn't have a paid fire department at one time. Now it does. And 00:57:18.019 --> 00:57:25.197 uh, that's that that was a change. And I have played a major role and that 00:57:25.230 --> 00:57:29.396 putting some people to work, 00:57:29.429 --> 00:57:31.546 two 00:57:31.579 --> 00:57:39.097 offer fire protection to the community. How do you want to be remembered? 00:57:39.130 --> 00:57:43.896 I guess one pretty busy guy 00:57:43.929 --> 00:57:50.287 in any particular area that you've been busy. No, 00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:54.517 not that I would put a finger on my right at the moment. What are you 00:57:54.550 --> 00:57:58.577 proud of stuff that you've accomplished. 00:57:58.610 --> 00:58:06.486 Um, my family is a major of her. Part of my an accomplished mother. I 00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:10.526 would put the family. I have poured it up. We're at the top for that 00:58:10.559 --> 00:58:15.686 matter. And and after the family um 00:58:15.719 --> 00:58:21.586 the some of the changes in society, I'm glad that 00:58:21.619 --> 00:58:28.236 race relations have tapered off as they haven't many. I see many changes 00:58:28.269 --> 00:58:34.666 that has been taken by very slowly and ASU wow. 00:58:34.699 --> 00:58:42.626 The head of some other universities along the way behind early but then 00:58:42.659 --> 00:58:48.666 later A. S. U. It was more of a national university in that regard. Do you 00:58:48.699 --> 00:58:53.986 have any examples of that um Education? 00:58:54.019 --> 00:59:02.019 We did not exclude students from going ahead for ah second or third 00:59:02.780 --> 00:59:08.816 degrees as the years went by? We welcome them and now I understand we have 00:59:08.849 --> 00:59:14.336 a rather ah sizable 00:59:14.369 --> 00:59:20.727 indian population. In fact, one thing I remember was an american indian. I 00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:25.327 grew up in Northern and Northeastern Arizona. He wasn't online last 00:59:25.360 --> 00:59:32.506 classes before I retired and he got a lot of grief, let me ask you. And 00:59:32.539 --> 00:59:36.677 we're beginning a legal career. The left eye heard of him, What was his 00:59:36.710 --> 00:59:42.367 name? Michael upshaw. Not a very common name for an american indian but 00:59:42.400 --> 00:59:48.336 the name is Michael upshaw. Mhm. What kind of advice do you give young 00:59:48.369 --> 00:59:54.256 people that are just starting out their careers. Ah 00:59:54.289 --> 01:00:02.289 I think I make an investment and time in your education. It'll be worth it 01:00:02.909 --> 01:00:05.566 precisely anything 01:00:05.599 --> 01:00:09.477 else that either of you wanted to. 01:00:09.510 --> 01:00:16.477 Van Patten was. What play was Van Patten 01:00:16.510 --> 01:00:19.697 connected to your department. 01:00:19.730 --> 01:00:24.577 one of the people who, within the department of Political science, 01:00:24.610 --> 01:00:29.526 department of Social Studies when I came was D. R. Van Patten, Donald Van 01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:37.559 Penton. And one of his extra duties was to serve in the athletics area of 01:00:38.920 --> 01:00:46.026 sports. And they one time was asked to be uh director of uh 01:00:46.059 --> 01:00:52.177 intercollegiate athletics and he filled that role for a period of time. 01:00:52.210 --> 01:00:59.066 Yeah, I came from the University of Chicago and Chicago had dropped some 01:00:59.099 --> 01:01:04.367 of the competitive sports and one time now Chicago has just about all the 01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:08.577 competitive sports and back again, but perhaps without some of the 01:01:08.610 --> 01:01:16.610 scholarships that some universities uh depend upon. And uh hey, 01:01:18.210 --> 01:01:24.586 I was named by President Homer Durham to be on the board of athletic 01:01:24.619 --> 01:01:30.637 control. And I was on that for several years. And so I I became acquainted 01:01:30.670 --> 01:01:38.586 with a number of sports figures frank is a football coach, ned walker as a 01:01:38.619 --> 01:01:44.686 basketball coach and some others. And so I was wrapped up in sports. Um 01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:51.077 Not much more than that. That was one thing that I hadn't expected and 01:01:51.110 --> 01:01:55.276 I went along, 01:01:55.309 --> 01:01:58.289 I have the circumstancesdemanded