WEBVTT

00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:05.026
 30th 2002. And we're here at the CSU Information Center at Rural and

00:00:05.059 --> 00:00:10.677
Apache. Uh doing a living history
interview, Living history for the living

00:00:10.710 --> 00:00:14.086
history video project for the Arizona
State University retirees

00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:18.646
Association. Uh And I'd like you to
introduce yourself so we get your name

00:00:18.679 --> 00:00:21.296
pronounced correctly.

00:00:21.329 --> 00:00:24.907
Well my name is George Morel.

00:00:24.940 --> 00:00:32.940
I retired from the university about 15
years ago. I started my

00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:39.586
first career at the university in
1946, but I had already been At the

00:00:39.619 --> 00:00:43.917
university since 1937. What was your
title when you retired? When I

00:00:43.950 --> 00:00:48.807
retired, I was Director of purchasing
and business services.

00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:51.997
I'd like to go back and just talk a
little bit about your personal

00:00:52.030 --> 00:00:57.717
background. Uh When and where were you
born? I was born in Florence just

00:00:57.750 --> 00:01:03.086
down the road a little ways. I'm a
second generation native of Arizona. My

00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:07.986
father was born here in Arizona. I
grew up there and came to school left

00:01:08.019 --> 00:01:11.717
there and came to school at uh what
was then Arizona State Teachers

00:01:11.750 --> 00:01:14.507
College in 1937.

00:01:14.540 --> 00:01:20.397
I worked my way through school and
graduated in 1941, Went into the Air

00:01:20.430 --> 00:01:26.947
Force in December of 1941. I spent
five years in the Air force as a

00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:34.980
fighter pilot and came out In 1946.
Why don't we go back and talk a little

00:01:35.379 --> 00:01:38.607
bit about your family? I think that's
very interesting that your second

00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:42.956
Generation native American or native.
Arizona native Arizona my

00:01:42.989 --> 00:01:47.596
grandmother, my grandmother came to
Arizona in a covered wagon in the in

00:01:47.629 --> 00:01:53.777
the 18. I'm not exactly sure of the
year, but somewhere around 1884,

00:01:53.810 --> 00:01:59.536
something like that. They settled in a
small little ranching community

00:01:59.569 --> 00:02:03.357
called Canal, which is now a ghost
town up around Superior, just off the

00:02:03.390 --> 00:02:07.786
mountain there. That's where my father
was born. And what brought your

00:02:07.819 --> 00:02:11.677
grandmother's family here? Well, in
those days, a lot of people were

00:02:11.710 --> 00:02:15.946
coming west, you know, to, to
resettle, they came from Kansas and I can't

00:02:15.979 --> 00:02:20.096
tell you too much about the people in
Kansas because I don't go back that

00:02:20.129 --> 00:02:25.797
far really to to find out, you know,
when you get a little older, you wish

00:02:25.830 --> 00:02:29.147
you had talked a lot with the people
that, that have already passed on,

00:02:29.180 --> 00:02:32.427
you know. But of course we didn't get
all that. But they came, they came

00:02:32.460 --> 00:02:36.487
through in a covered wagon and the
whole family settled in that area. What

00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:42.886
did they do for a living? There were
ranchers. In fact, my, my dad grew up

00:02:42.919 --> 00:02:49.626
on a cattle ranch. He was, it's kind
of an interesting. My grandmother was

00:02:49.659 --> 00:02:54.316
married three times she lost to the
first two husbands. And in fact, my

00:02:54.349 --> 00:02:59.686
father was uh, let me go back a
minute. The her first husband was, my

00:02:59.719 --> 00:03:05.506
father's father and my

00:03:05.539 --> 00:03:10.006
my grandfather died when my father was
about nine years old and he kind of

00:03:10.039 --> 00:03:14.827
helped raise the family from that time
on, she married to others. But they

00:03:14.860 --> 00:03:19.467
all were cattle ranchers in that area
up around the Whitlow ranch, which

00:03:19.500 --> 00:03:25.987
is in the area of superior up there,
that was, that was the man's name

00:03:26.020 --> 00:03:32.506
that she married last time. So how did
your father end up in Florence?

00:03:32.539 --> 00:03:36.547
Well, the family decided, I guess I
don't know whether the cattle ranching

00:03:36.580 --> 00:03:40.027
business wasn't very good or anything,
but they decided to move. They

00:03:40.060 --> 00:03:45.946
first moved to Imperial Valley and
we're farmers there, then moved to to

00:03:45.979 --> 00:03:51.177
Coolidge Florence area where they were
farming. And then they got out

00:03:51.210 --> 00:03:56.297
during the depression years of course,
why everything went bad and they

00:03:56.330 --> 00:04:01.156
got out of the farming and lost
everything that they had. My father worked

00:04:01.189 --> 00:04:08.717
in on a construction crew for the
Arizona State Highway department during

00:04:08.750 --> 00:04:14.777
the time that I was growing up, my
mother was postmaster of Florence. Mm

00:04:14.810 --> 00:04:20.846
hmm. They stayed in Florence all that
time.

00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:28.087
Well, they were at one time, but they
lost all that. Yeah, I heard stories

00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.877
about the depressed cotton. Yes. Well,
there was a lot of people lost a

00:04:32.910 --> 00:04:36.707
lot during the depression. You know,
they didn't. So when you were born,

00:04:36.740 --> 00:04:40.786
how big of a family? Children were in
the family just have, I just have a

00:04:40.819 --> 00:04:47.786
sister. She's two years older than I
am. She lives in, in san Antonio

00:04:47.819 --> 00:04:52.327
right now. My mother and father are
both passed away. My My dad lived to

00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:58.666
about, I think it was about 88. My
mother lived till she was 89 and both

00:04:58.699 --> 00:05:06.699
in reasonably good health until the
time they passed away. Yes, yes.

00:05:07.050 --> 00:05:10.027
When you were growing up as a boy.
Well Florence is about the same as it

00:05:10.060 --> 00:05:14.687
is right now. To tell you the truth,
Florence hasn't changed any. If you

00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:17.426
go back to Florence right now you'd
see what it was when we were growing

00:05:17.459 --> 00:05:21.567
up. Except there's a few more stores
that are closed and the movie theater

00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:25.067
isn't there anymore and that sort of
thing. But it was small town,

00:05:25.100 --> 00:05:31.687
probably Maybe 1200 people that lived
in Florence at that time. And most,

00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:37.197
most of the uh it was, it was a
ranching community farming community plus

00:05:37.230 --> 00:05:40.837
the Arizona state prison of course was
there and that was one of the big

00:05:40.870 --> 00:05:44.806
industries for Florence. You know, a
lot of people worked at the prison.

00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:48.916
Um Growing up in those days I was a
little bit different, we had no air

00:05:48.949 --> 00:05:53.286
conditioning and I think of that sort,
but we had a swimming pool at the

00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:56.476
high school and of course that was our
recreation during the summer, most

00:05:56.509 --> 00:06:01.957
of the time, you know, we played
sandlot football, Sandlot baseball, all

00:06:01.990 --> 00:06:07.517
the kids in town all grew up together.
Uh just kind of a small town

00:06:07.550 --> 00:06:12.627
atmosphere. Do you remember having to
do chores as a boy? Oh yes, we lived

00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:19.137
on a ranch. So I had do a lot of
those, we had, we had to milk cows, we

00:06:19.170 --> 00:06:24.207
had three milk cows and we had we
raised a few pigs. We raised, we we had

00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:29.786
about a 15 acre farm. It was just a
little just enough to keep us going,

00:06:29.819 --> 00:06:33.627
you know. And besides my dad working
at the time we had a couple of horses.

00:06:33.660 --> 00:06:37.906
We had all that sort of thing. So I
had to milk cows. I had to clean

00:06:37.939 --> 00:06:43.377
chicken pans and do all that sort of
thing. What about school? What was

00:06:43.410 --> 00:06:50.067
what was, where did you go to school
As a boy? We had one grammar school

00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:54.587
and one high school. The high school
was actually a union high school that

00:06:54.620 --> 00:07:01.676
took in Florence, Coolidge, red rock
picazio. All that area kids came to

00:07:01.709 --> 00:07:07.127
school in Florence for that during
high school. Uh I can't remember an

00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:12.147
awful lot about my high school days.
You know it goes back too far. But I

00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:16.767
know I worked at the time not only
going to school but working at the time.

00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:22.937
What did you do? Well I was a soda
jerk in a drugstore when they used to

00:07:22.970 --> 00:07:28.296
have soda fountains. You probably
don't ever remember those. But I was

00:07:28.329 --> 00:07:34.507
delivered milk for a dairy. Of course
I worked around it one Arm Ourselves

00:07:34.540 --> 00:07:40.556
delivered newspapers. Yeah those were
depression years and everybody had

00:07:40.589 --> 00:07:45.387
to pitch in and do something. My dad
had two jobs because they didn't

00:07:45.420 --> 00:07:51.176
people just didn't have jobs anymore.
So he only had a half time job on

00:07:51.209 --> 00:07:55.056
the highway department. He had to
leave halfway through and somebody else

00:07:55.089 --> 00:07:59.056
took his place for the rest of the
month. But he was a night watchman at

00:07:59.089 --> 00:08:03.017
the same time. So that kind of helped
out.

00:08:03.050 --> 00:08:10.397
We raised a lot of our own produce and
eggs and milk and butter and pork

00:08:10.430 --> 00:08:15.976
and so forth. So we never we were
never hungry at all. But the depression

00:08:16.009 --> 00:08:20.866
days were different than they are now.
So in high school or school did you

00:08:20.899 --> 00:08:25.437
have favorite subjects? No it wasn't a
particularly good student in high

00:08:25.470 --> 00:08:30.986
school you know just mostly playing I
think more than anything else. Not

00:08:31.019 --> 00:08:35.427
really. I guess that I probably like
mathematics and that sort of thing as

00:08:35.460 --> 00:08:41.557
well as anything. Um I wasn't very big
at that time. I must say that I

00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:49.407
grew up about the time that I left
high school. Um Because I was I had

00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:52.037
skipped the second grade. So I was a
little young for my age going through

00:08:52.070 --> 00:08:57.736
school so I wasn't quite big enough to
play football. I did play baseball

00:08:57.769 --> 00:09:01.846
and I did play basketball but football
was one of my favorites. But I

00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:08.717
never was a was big enough to play
football when I came to issue which was

00:09:08.750 --> 00:09:16.167
A. S. T. C. In those days I was on the
track team. Well a couple of years

00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:20.407
as a boy growing up. What were your
plans? What were you going to do? Well

00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:24.776
I don't know that I had plans until it
was you know, getting along toward

00:09:24.809 --> 00:09:28.587
the end of high school years, but what
I wanted to do, I wanted to be in

00:09:28.620 --> 00:09:30.807
the FBI

00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:34.386
and you had to have in those days you
had to have either an accounting

00:09:34.419 --> 00:09:39.177
degree or a law degree in order to get
into the FBI. Well, I knew I was

00:09:39.210 --> 00:09:43.337
never going to be able to get a law
degree, so that's why I've set my

00:09:43.370 --> 00:09:47.876
sights on a shoe to come and get an
accounting degree, which I did. But

00:09:47.909 --> 00:09:51.106
the war coming along changed all that.
What do you want to be in the F. B

00:09:51.139 --> 00:09:55.276
. I don't know. Well

00:09:55.309 --> 00:09:59.876
I had some friends that had gone to
the FBI, some older friends and it

00:09:59.909 --> 00:10:04.677
just seemed like I guess supposed to
glamorous career in those days. And

00:10:04.710 --> 00:10:09.917
that was that was what I was hoping to
be. But when the war came along

00:10:09.950 --> 00:10:14.146
that changed plans for a lot of
people. When did you first come to A. S. U.

00:10:14.179 --> 00:10:20.947
1937 what was it called then? Here's
an Estate Teachers college had about

00:10:20.980 --> 00:10:28.606
oh I suppose a little over 1000
students at the time. The campus was maybe

00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:31.907
10 to 12 major buildings.

00:10:31.940 --> 00:10:37.207
We had, let's see, I think we had
about seven dormitories at that time

00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:40.207
because a lot of students lived on
campus, The ones that didn't actually

00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:43.896
weren't from Tempe or phoenix to that
area. Usually lived on campus. We

00:10:43.929 --> 00:10:46.657
didn't have all the outside apartments
and that sort of thing in those

00:10:46.690 --> 00:10:50.606
days that they have now,

00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:53.907
of course, the university, I call it,
the university. The college at that

00:10:53.940 --> 00:10:59.797
time was bisected by Orange Street.
And college at rand college ran all

00:10:59.830 --> 00:11:04.407
the way through north and south, and
Orange Street ran all the way through

00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:10.207
east and west as far as Forest Avenue.
So there was traffic through the

00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:16.297
campus at all times until they closed
off in later years after the war, in

00:11:16.330 --> 00:11:22.886
later years closed off and built the
malls. But, and we had the, well,

00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:25.506
let's see the quadrangle,

00:11:25.539 --> 00:11:31.116
which was East Hall, North Hall,
Southall West Hall, Very imaginative

00:11:31.149 --> 00:11:37.486
names, weren't they? For dormitories.
That was probably the area that was

00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:40.967
the most popular in those days. As far
as the campus was concerned, that

00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:47.807
was kind of the hub. I happen to live
in East Hall in those days.

00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.246
No parking lots. Nobody had any cars.
So they didn't need any parking lots.

00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.657
Most of the cars that were on the
campus parked on the streets in those

00:11:55.690 --> 00:12:01.246
days in Orange Street or College
Avenue. I think we had Maybe two cars in

00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:07.207
our dormitory. That was about the
extent of it. Um,

00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:15.240
At, at college and what was then 8th
Street, which is now university,

00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:20.106
they had the varsity in which was a
hangout student hangout in those days.

00:12:20.139 --> 00:12:24.947
Across the street. Cat a corner over
on the other side was joe pigs. I

00:12:24.980 --> 00:12:29.207
don't know if you've ever heard of joe
pigs, but that was also on campus.

00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:35.707
Uh, place for students to hang out
next to the varsity. N was a barber

00:12:35.740 --> 00:12:41.506
shop and a cleaning establishment. I
think haircuts were a quarter. I can

00:12:41.539 --> 00:12:46.797
always remember that haircuts were 25
cents in those days. But if you had

00:12:46.830 --> 00:12:50.606
a date in those days, you probably
picked up your date at one of the

00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:55.126
dormitories and you went down to the
bar city in and you had a coke or ice

00:12:55.159 --> 00:12:58.287
cream cone or something like that and
sat around and talked and that was,

00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.016
that was about it. Or you went to the
library and did a little studying

00:13:03.049 --> 00:13:07.907
first. You know, most of them are
studied in the library.

00:13:07.940 --> 00:13:14.787
That was Matthews library. The library
was upstairs, the administration,

00:13:14.820 --> 00:13:19.016
administrative offices were
downstairs, President's office, registrar,

00:13:19.049 --> 00:13:23.547
business office and so forth. That's
now Matthew center. And I suppose

00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:26.707
it's mostly

00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:29.407
a gallery.

00:13:29.440 --> 00:13:37.440
Yeah. It's going to be a little, what
was your dorm room like?

00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:42.116
We had sleeping porches in most of the
dormitories in those days because

00:13:42.149 --> 00:13:46.337
it was so hot. There was no air
conditioning that most of us slept out on

00:13:46.370 --> 00:13:51.246
the screen and sleeping porch, The
dormitory room was just a plain room.

00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:56.587
Uh no beds in it. You had a couple of
study tables and a couple of closets

00:13:56.620 --> 00:14:01.516
and a couple of chairs and that was
it, but kids went in and out and those

00:14:01.549 --> 00:14:04.677
that didn't live in the dorm stayed
there every once in a while anyway,

00:14:04.710 --> 00:14:09.226
whether they were actual occupants of
the dorm or not. I remember our our

00:14:09.259 --> 00:14:13.636
room was a little large because it was
on the corner and we had, we're

00:14:13.669 --> 00:14:19.026
supposed to have three roommates, but
we had about 56. Sometimes you never

00:14:19.059 --> 00:14:22.967
knew for sure who was going to be
there that night. I didn't sleep in the

00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:28.807
room, didn't sleep in the room, slept
out on the sleeping porches. Yes.

00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:32.207
Mhm. Okay.

00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:36.297
All the dormitories were not like
that. East hall was like that. Some of

00:14:36.330 --> 00:14:42.187
the dormitories like Matthews hall
alcohol. And so we've had sort of what

00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:45.077
you would call sweets. In other words,
maybe two rooms that would have a

00:14:45.110 --> 00:14:47.557
sleeping porch

00:14:47.590 --> 00:14:52.547
Connected to the two rooms, nobody had
any private bass, they were all

00:14:52.580 --> 00:14:58.207
down the hall type things, gang type
showers. And so

00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.557
What did you think of it coming from
Florence? Well, I thought it was a

00:15:01.590 --> 00:15:09.106
large place, really, a big school
because I I graduated from a class of 28

00:15:09.139 --> 00:15:13.756
And when I got over here we had almost
a 1000 students, you know, that was

00:15:13.789 --> 00:15:19.807
pretty good, good.

00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:24.506
But

00:15:24.539 --> 00:15:28.866
and I did, I'd never been anyplace
before really. I don't think, I think

00:15:28.899 --> 00:15:36.899
I've been to California a couple of
times. Right. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.

00:15:44.539 --> 00:15:47.307
But

00:15:47.340 --> 00:15:53.876
and you, I did, it was a lot. It was
my four years in college was really

00:15:53.909 --> 00:15:58.346
enjoyable. You've never been to
phoenix? Well we've been to phoenix back

00:15:58.379 --> 00:16:01.297
and forth because phoenix was the
place that we did our major shopping

00:16:01.330 --> 00:16:06.297
about three or four times a year if
you wanted to buy school clothes and

00:16:06.330 --> 00:16:10.457
that sort of thing usually came to
phoenix to do that. What was that? Well

00:16:10.490 --> 00:16:15.106
, phoenix was a small town to really
in comparison to what it is right now

00:16:15.139 --> 00:16:20.006
, but it was a pretty large city as
far as we were concerned. And it had,

00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:25.126
we had a number of major stores in
those days. Uh they're no longer there

00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:29.756
Kerekes, boston store, that sort of
thing which were bought up by some of

00:16:29.789 --> 00:16:34.687
the larger the department stores and
they became, I forget the names of

00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:38.136
them now. They're probably Dillard's
and all that sort of thing. But it

00:16:38.169 --> 00:16:42.827
was a place to come and spend a day.
It was kind of an adventure to get

00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:47.217
over to phoenix. You know, have lunch
in one of the restaurants. How did

00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:49.907
you get from Florence?

00:16:49.940 --> 00:16:54.437
Where were the highways? Well there
was no freeway but they had the same

00:16:54.470 --> 00:16:59.146
highway that you come from Florence to
Florence junction on on and on up

00:16:59.179 --> 00:17:03.667
through Mesa on into phoenix,

00:17:03.700 --> 00:17:06.437
A

00:17:06.470 --> 00:17:10.546
lot of it was not paved, it was paid
from mesa onto phoenix, but from

00:17:10.579 --> 00:17:15.377
Florence up it was not paved. In fact
as we in the summertime we used to

00:17:15.410 --> 00:17:18.407
make sure my dad would make sure that
if we came to phoenix, we always

00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.597
left by two o'clock in the afternoon
because if the rains came, the

00:17:21.630 --> 00:17:25.387
washers ran and you were not going to
be able to get back and that sort of

00:17:25.420 --> 00:17:28.826
thing. Yeah,

00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:33.256
well it was a trip of a couple of
hours at a time, you know, you know, It

00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:40.667
was all day and it was an all day
adventure going 65. Not really. Yeah,

00:17:40.700 --> 00:17:44.756
you mentioned that, you know, people
didn't have cars like that at the

00:17:44.789 --> 00:17:50.437
college then. How did you get around?
Well, we, we bought gas for whoever

00:17:50.470 --> 00:17:53.296
did have a car, if we wanted to get
into Phoenix to go to a movie or

00:17:53.329 --> 00:17:58.597
something like that, we pay 10 cents
apiece for half a gallon of gas or

00:17:58.630 --> 00:18:03.016
whatever it was that we needed. And
the bus line ran, I can remember

00:18:03.049 --> 00:18:08.847
Mendelssohn's bus line ran between
phoenix and Tempe and Mesa so we can

00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:12.006
get around pretty well.

00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:16.697
So when you came to college, what
would you say you wanted to get into the

00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:21.776
FBI? What kind of classes? I just took
a general of course with a major in

00:18:21.809 --> 00:18:28.336
accounting in those days. There was
no, there were no colleges as such. In

00:18:28.369 --> 00:18:31.677
other words, you took a degree, you
took a bachelor of arts degree in

00:18:31.710 --> 00:18:35.937
education is that that's what I got
was to be an education, although my

00:18:35.970 --> 00:18:41.437
major was in accounting uh and so I
took the same thing that most

00:18:41.470 --> 00:18:45.746
everybody else took in those days, you
know with with the exception of

00:18:45.779 --> 00:18:49.457
some special accounting courses.

00:18:49.490 --> 00:18:57.387
So when did you graduate, graduated in
1941? Mm hmm. I had already joined

00:18:57.420 --> 00:19:04.566
the Air Force. I got into the Air
Force about April or May of 1941

00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.556
and passed my physicals and was
accepted. But at that time the war had not

00:19:08.589 --> 00:19:14.357
broken out. So I they didn't need
pilots for a while. But as soon as

00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:19.526
December seven came I had a telegram
that said you will report to Hillary

00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:25.207
Air Force Academy. And so I went in
the service at that time.

00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:29.387
Unfortunately I'd already graduated
though a lot of the guys that were

00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:33.786
friends of mine, I had a year ago, two
years ago or something like that.

00:19:33.819 --> 00:19:38.397
They had to come back after the war
and finish up. And we had a lot of G

00:19:38.430 --> 00:19:44.066
. I. S. That came back after the war
as a pilot to fly. I didn't know how

00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:48.447
to fly. I had to go in as a, as a fact
is to be honest with you I had

00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:55.397
never been in an airplane before. I
when in the flight training but

00:19:55.430 --> 00:19:58.006
I went through the program

00:19:58.039 --> 00:20:02.717
went down was sent to March Field
first fly bombers. And then from there

00:20:02.750 --> 00:20:07.647
we were sent to Orlando florida and
trained in night fighter training. I

00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:11.647
was a night fighter pilot in the war
over in europe mediterranean and so

00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:15.607
forth. I was there for two years

00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:22.486
and came back. And uh I had actually
worked for the university from june

00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:28.637
to december because I had, I had
graduated and I was just sitting and

00:20:28.670 --> 00:20:32.586
waiting for my call to go in the Air
Force. And my friend Gilbert Katie,

00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:36.806
who was the business manager at the
university, I had worked for him as a

00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:41.006
student, gave me a job as a

00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:48.506
work in the business this office

00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:52.306
for six months

00:20:52.339 --> 00:20:58.377
from june to december until I went
back in the Air Force. Tell me a little

00:20:58.410 --> 00:21:01.927
about your World war two experience.
There's not too many, you know, we're

00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:07.157
losing a lot of you guys. Um Any
experiences stand out of what, what are

00:21:07.190 --> 00:21:12.407
you doing? Oh I probably did what the
same as everybody else did over

00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:17.437
there. I was over there for two years.
We first started in England flying

00:21:17.470 --> 00:21:22.736
an english airplane because at that
time the U. S. Air Force did not have

00:21:22.769 --> 00:21:28.207
a night fighter aircraft. There's
such, in other words

00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:31.506
there's one,

00:21:31.539 --> 00:21:35.207
thank you.

00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:43.240
But that okay all the time. Midnight
mostly. Yeah right.

00:21:48.740 --> 00:21:52.107
We had used

00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:54.506
38

00:21:54.539 --> 00:21:59.907
training but we didn't have what was
called a night fighter aircraft. So

00:21:59.940 --> 00:22:03.357
they sent us to England and we
outfitted in what was called the british

00:22:03.390 --> 00:22:08.496
bow fighter. It was a twin engine
night fighter aircraft that had been

00:22:08.529 --> 00:22:11.667
used during the battle of Britain and
all that time. You know the british

00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:17.046
were in the war for four years before
we ever got in and we were outfitted

00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:20.246
and trained there and then our
squadron was sent down into the

00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:25.486
Mediterranean into Africa during the
African campaign. And we moved up

00:22:25.519 --> 00:22:33.026
through Africa into Sardinia and
Corsica in Italy and southern France in

00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:39.917
that area. We flew almost always at
night. Why? Well, somebody had to fly

00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:42.937
at night. You know, we were night
fighter deals rather than day fighter

00:22:42.970 --> 00:22:48.667
pilots. And so we did a lot of harbor
patrols. We did a lot of night

00:22:48.700 --> 00:22:53.306
strafing and back of enemy lines. In
other words, you go up into southern

00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:59.887
France and do strafing of airfields
and whatever, moved another trains and

00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:05.127
trucks and convoys and so forth. So we
did all of our nuisance at night

00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:13.160
more than anything else. And for 86
missions came home and gosh, I don't

00:23:14.150 --> 00:23:20.117
remember when I came home, came home
and about november of 1940 for I

00:23:20.150 --> 00:23:23.816
guess I was over there about two
years.

00:23:23.849 --> 00:23:29.736
Well, everybody that flew in the war
had close calls. Yes. In fact, as I

00:23:29.769 --> 00:23:35.586
crashed on takeoff 11 night I took off
and about halfway down the runway

00:23:35.619 --> 00:23:40.627
my left engine exploded and caught on
fire and we cracked up at the end of

00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:46.806
the runway. Everybody got we only had
to we had radar observer and a pilot.

00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:51.907
We both got out okay with just a few
bumps and bruises and scratches. But

00:23:51.940 --> 00:23:57.526
we were lucky. Very lucky We had a few
like that. You know you can't fly

00:23:57.559 --> 00:24:01.996
86 missions in two years without
having some close calls. But that's not

00:24:02.029 --> 00:24:08.377
unusual with most of the pilots. Well
we didn't have any too much of a

00:24:08.410 --> 00:24:11.677
problem with enemy planes. By the time
that we got into that area, the

00:24:11.710 --> 00:24:16.697
german Air force had pulled back to
really protecting Germany more than

00:24:16.730 --> 00:24:20.147
anything else. They weren't doing much
in the way of bombing raids. We had

00:24:20.180 --> 00:24:25.927
a few bombing raids. We covered we
covered the Angelo Beach Head when they

00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.756
were bombing There we are quite a
knockdown about four airplanes I think

00:24:29.789 --> 00:24:34.006
at that time I never really did. I
chased a lot of them but I never really

00:24:34.039 --> 00:24:41.717
was able to get close enough. But
anyway we we had mainly

00:24:41.750 --> 00:24:46.857
what we call intruder missions which
were taking off and flying into an

00:24:46.890 --> 00:24:51.597
area and back of the lines and doing
whatever straight thing you could

00:24:51.630 --> 00:24:55.957
find during the night, surprising what
you can see at night even though

00:24:55.990 --> 00:24:59.187
it's dark. You didn't have all the
fancy night vision stuff. They have to

00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:05.026
do nothing. But we did have radar
which we had airborne radar which we had

00:25:05.059 --> 00:25:09.286
a radar operator he could pick up he
could pick up planes in the air, he

00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:13.766
could pick up things on the ground and
that sort of thing which helped but

00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:17.857
you still had to see it before. You
could do anything about it much

00:25:17.890 --> 00:25:24.806
different than the wars are now where
they can Lock on five miles away and

00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:30.097
and shoot a rocket in. You know, you
said you'd never been in an airplane

00:25:30.130 --> 00:25:35.546
before. I've never been in an airplane
before. I started flying well in

00:25:35.579 --> 00:25:39.107
those days. You know you have to have
money to take a ride in an airplane.

00:25:39.140 --> 00:25:41.887
Didn't have any money for one thing
and we certainly didn't do any

00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:46.586
traveling by air. So we just hadn't, I
just never had an opportunity to

00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:49.986
fly. What made you think you'd want to
be a pilot? Well, I didn't want to

00:25:50.019 --> 00:25:53.957
be on the ground for one thing. You
know, I was always be honest with you

00:25:53.990 --> 00:25:57.976
. I was always really interested in
flying even though I'd never flown, I

00:25:58.009 --> 00:26:03.117
made model airplanes and did all that
sort of thing when I was a young and

00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:07.647
I just always had an inkling to, to
kind of be a pilot really. I never

00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:12.417
thought I would be until the war came
along of course. But what do you

00:26:12.450 --> 00:26:16.217
think on your first flight? Well it
was kind of very interesting. You know

00:26:16.250 --> 00:26:23.566
, it was a thrill. Yeah, I can't
remember it to be honest with you. I

00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:27.697
can't really remember exactly what but
I felt like at that time it's a

00:26:27.730 --> 00:26:31.187
long, long time

00:26:31.220 --> 00:26:34.907
March Air Force Base. That would be
interesting. Well when I went to March

00:26:34.940 --> 00:26:39.736
Air Force Base, those were B 20
four's. My

00:26:39.769 --> 00:26:43.726
first one that I went to to Larry. I
trained in PT 13, which was a

00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:49.066
Stearman biplane open to open
cockpits, You know that sort of thing. We

00:26:49.099 --> 00:26:52.437
did our primary training in that. We
went to Bakersfield after that and

00:26:52.470 --> 00:26:59.506
flew B 13 which was enclosed, but it
was still just a smaller plane. Then

00:26:59.539 --> 00:27:03.357
we went to Victorville Air Force Base
and flew advanced training there in

00:27:03.390 --> 00:27:09.397
a twin engine, small twin engine plane
In 89, which I'm sure you don't

00:27:09.430 --> 00:27:13.736
ever know what an 89, was but it was a
small twin engine aircraft and

00:27:13.769 --> 00:27:17.407
that's where I got my wings at
Victorville

00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:22.407
And then went to March and flew B- 24
is for just a short period of time.

00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:27.397
Then I went down to Orlando trained in
knife fighter training Most of

00:27:27.430 --> 00:27:31.097
those 86 flights. What were you
flying? Flying a Bullfighter? All my

00:27:31.130 --> 00:27:36.467
combat experience was in a bristol
Bullfighter british airplane Later on

00:27:36.500 --> 00:27:41.127
after I had left the squadron Uh, and
came home, the squadron was

00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:45.907
outfitted with P- 61, which is the
black widow. That's what the air force

00:27:45.940 --> 00:27:50.687
built as their night fighter aircraft.
I flew that when I got back from

00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:56.486
overseas in training, but I never
fluid in combat. So after you had all

00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:02.326
that adventure, what, what were you
thinking about doing after? Well, I

00:28:02.359 --> 00:28:08.006
didn't know really, when I was in, I
was stationed in Fresno at the time

00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:12.207
and I had an idea that I might stay in
the air force because I like to fly

00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:16.076
and I thought well maybe I'll just
make a career of the Air Force. I

00:28:16.109 --> 00:28:22.006
didn't get out of the service until
February of 1946, which was well after

00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:26.147
the war ended because I didn't know
for sure whether I wanted to make a

00:28:26.180 --> 00:28:31.437
career of the Air Force or not. And at
the time Gilbert Katie was back out

00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:35.137
of the service and was the business
manager at the university and he

00:28:35.170 --> 00:28:39.607
called me and offered me a position as
assistant business manager if I

00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:43.937
wanted, if I got out of the service.
And so I thought about it for a long

00:28:43.970 --> 00:28:48.427
time and finally decided that even
though I liked the Air Force, I didn't

00:28:48.460 --> 00:28:52.717
like the idea of moving around all the
time, you know to be stationed in

00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:56.996
one place for 2, 3 years and then
moved to another place to three years

00:28:57.029 --> 00:29:00.867
and on and so forth. So I finally
decided that I would leave the Air Force

00:29:00.900 --> 00:29:06.056
and I came back to the issue as
assistant business manager,

00:29:06.089 --> 00:29:11.697
I had a wife, I didn't have any kids,
but I had a wife, we got married and

00:29:11.730 --> 00:29:16.006
when we were in Fresno right after the
war,

00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:20.006
Well that's a long story, I met her
when she was in grammar school and she

00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:23.847
, she had a she had a cousin that
lived in Florence, she lived in phoenix

00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:27.806
, I had that she had a cousin that
lived in Florence. She came down to

00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:33.036
Florence to visit during the summer
and we got acquainted there and we, it

00:29:33.069 --> 00:29:36.887
was a strange thing you know we kept
in touch all during the war we never

00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:42.957
really were close close but A letter
ever two or 3 months or something

00:29:42.990 --> 00:29:46.286
like that you know? And so we kept in
touch with each other all during the

00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:52.746
war. And when I came back from
overseas I went for my arrest and

00:29:52.779 --> 00:29:59.056
rehabilitation santa Monica California
rest center at that time she had

00:29:59.089 --> 00:30:03.806
moved to santa Monica and was working
at north american aviation over

00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:08.476
there during the war. And I thought
gee I know a girl that lives here so I

00:30:08.509 --> 00:30:14.006
called her up and we had a few dates
and just went from there.

00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:19.756
We were married about I suppose about
a year later after that. So you

00:30:19.789 --> 00:30:25.526
decided to come back and I decided to
come back and and was was assistant

00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:31.836
business manager. Again, this was in
1946. Again the school was the

00:30:31.869 --> 00:30:36.217
university of Willow College, I should
say to college at that time was

00:30:36.250 --> 00:30:40.917
Arizona State College. It had changed
names from Arizona State teachers

00:30:40.950 --> 00:30:44.877
college years in State college And I
suppose there was about 1200 students

00:30:44.910 --> 00:30:49.947
, maybe a few more than that when I
came back. It was still bisected by

00:30:49.980 --> 00:30:53.407
college and orange in other words the
campus hadn't changed much at all by

00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:55.917
that time because during the war, of
course there was no building or

00:30:55.950 --> 00:31:00.486
anything that was going on at that
time. But the students started coming

00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:06.957
back on the G. I. Bill and I think the
first year we're just about doubled

00:31:06.990 --> 00:31:10.697
the enrollment. The second year, I
think we just about double that

00:31:10.730 --> 00:31:14.377
enrollment and it just kept going up
from there. Every year was a big

00:31:14.410 --> 00:31:20.197
expansion. And during those early
years, although I was assistant business

00:31:20.230 --> 00:31:26.417
manager, I was everything I, the
business office did the physical plant

00:31:26.450 --> 00:31:30.127
from Emma, graphing the motor pool of
you name it. It was anything that

00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:35.546
was part of the facilities where we,
we handle that physical plant. Um,

00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:40.306
and I was not actually a purchasing
agent at that time, although I did

00:31:40.339 --> 00:31:45.197
handle purchasing, but that was just
kind of a sideline in those days. And

00:31:45.230 --> 00:31:49.707
uh, yeah, we

00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:54.927
had students coming out of our ears.
We had students that we tried to

00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:59.207
house in the basement of the lyceum
building. All the dormitories were

00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:03.437
filled and probably had more than they
should have had in each room. You

00:32:03.470 --> 00:32:11.470
know, we had Olive hall. Olive hall
was a hotel down in middle of Tempe,

00:32:14.140 --> 00:32:18.617
took that over as a dormitory.
Students lived there and we actually

00:32:18.650 --> 00:32:21.367
couldn't handle them because we didn't
have any new dormitories for quite

00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:26.197
a long time until they built irish
hall and finally got some breathing

00:32:26.230 --> 00:32:34.097
room. But in those days the budget was
very, very slim. We had to scratch

00:32:34.130 --> 00:32:37.867
for everything that we got in those
days. Talking about housing. Somebody

00:32:37.900 --> 00:32:43.367
tell us about Victory Village. Victory
Village was Part of it was there

00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:46.756
when I came back from the service,
they had already started victory

00:32:46.789 --> 00:32:52.427
village with 50 trailers that they got
from the federal government. I

00:32:52.460 --> 00:32:56.326
don't know if the story of that's been
told or not, but a man by the name

00:32:56.359 --> 00:33:02.276
of john Sandy Bridge was one of the
old alumnus of the university and he

00:33:02.309 --> 00:33:06.836
right after the war he was he was too
old to be in the service. I mean he

00:33:06.869 --> 00:33:10.467
was an older man at that time. Right
after the war though he saw the need

00:33:10.500 --> 00:33:18.066
for G. I. Married housing G. I. That
had been married in So in some way or

00:33:18.099 --> 00:33:25.607
whether they were able to get 50
traders from the federal government. They

00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:31.377
in some way or other raised the money
to put in the sewers and in the

00:33:31.410 --> 00:33:37.107
utilities and so forth. And he brought
those trailers in and set them up.

00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:43.927
And that was the first GI housing on
campus that was on right where.

00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:49.697
Gammage Auditorium is now on the curve
down there. Later on they brought

00:33:49.730 --> 00:33:56.667
in some flat top dormitories and those
were used for G. I. S. Coming back

00:33:56.700 --> 00:34:01.066
and then they brought in some flat top
duplexes. I think they came from

00:34:01.099 --> 00:34:04.467
one of the relocation centers. In
other words the Japanese relocation

00:34:04.500 --> 00:34:08.967
centers down in post, in that area.
They brought those in and those were

00:34:09.000 --> 00:34:13.606
used for marriage students housing a
little bit later on. They brought in

00:34:13.639 --> 00:34:20.537
I think for barracks buildings and
converted those into apartments. And

00:34:20.570 --> 00:34:27.856
those were used for faculty housing at
the time. And we also converted

00:34:27.889 --> 00:34:31.916
what we call the NY apartments, which
is, which was a building at the

00:34:31.949 --> 00:34:35.767
university owned out on Mill Avenue.

00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:40.177
And it was used for part of the farm
at that time, converted that to

00:34:40.210 --> 00:34:43.986
apartments. Those a little just very,
very small efficiency apartments

00:34:44.019 --> 00:34:47.427
where you had a little the van that
you made out into a bed and so forth

00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:52.307
and couples live there mostly faculty.
I think there might have been a few

00:34:52.340 --> 00:34:55.847
students there, but mostly faculty.

00:34:55.880 --> 00:35:01.546
Can I interrupt for a moment. You
mentioned the curve. The curve actually

00:35:01.579 --> 00:35:09.579
go in, wasn't that? It used to be a
corner, it used to be a corner. Well,

00:35:11.420 --> 00:35:17.986
I'm not exactly sure, but it it went
in well before, before night, before

00:35:18.019 --> 00:35:24.456
the war, it was there during the war.
Right, uh huh. So I'm not exactly

00:35:24.489 --> 00:35:29.416
sure of the year, but it was there.
But that was a college farm. That was

00:35:29.449 --> 00:35:34.396
a farm when I came back from the
service. There weren't very many where

00:35:34.429 --> 00:35:38.807
there were no no new buildings, we
were just starting to grow, you know,

00:35:38.840 --> 00:35:42.367
in all that area where Gammage
Auditorium is now and all that curve in

00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:49.407
there except for where the trailers
were, was the college farm. We grew,

00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:56.336
oh, I don't know what they grew. I
remember that we raised chickens and we

00:35:56.369 --> 00:36:04.369
raised hogs and we we had a dairy farm
but it was a little bit out of out

00:36:04.889 --> 00:36:09.717
on Mill Avenue and part of the produce
was used for the dining hall. What

00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:13.206
little bit that they could all the
eggs and that sort of thing. And the

00:36:13.239 --> 00:36:16.517
reason I know it well is because when
I came to school, that was my first

00:36:16.550 --> 00:36:22.997
job with cleaning the chicken pins and
the pig pens at the college farm.

00:36:23.030 --> 00:36:29.296
That was my first job. I did that for
a year and then I was promoted. I

00:36:29.329 --> 00:36:34.066
went from there to the dining room and
I was in the dishwashing crew in

00:36:34.099 --> 00:36:40.236
the dining room for a year and then I
was since I was in accounting and

00:36:40.269 --> 00:36:45.467
had done some clerical work and new,
got acquainted with Gilbert Katie, he

00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:49.997
gave me a job as a student assistant
in the business office. So I spent my

00:36:50.030 --> 00:36:54.677
last two years as a, as a clerk in a
business office for I'm working my

00:36:54.710 --> 00:36:58.706
way through college a little better
than cleaning chicken coops very much

00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:04.197
better. But going back to going back
to the years when they first came

00:37:04.230 --> 00:37:10.296
back from the service. Um

00:37:10.329 --> 00:37:15.497
I wish, I wish my memory we're clear
on all those years back there. But we

00:37:15.530 --> 00:37:22.267
built another stadium, We built
stadium across the way from old Goodwin

00:37:22.300 --> 00:37:29.197
Stadium. It was two sides to it.
Goodwin Stadium was at the end of college

00:37:29.230 --> 00:37:33.197
, right on the highway.

00:37:33.230 --> 00:37:40.106
There's a parking garage there now. Uh
and it was just one side held. Oh I

00:37:40.139 --> 00:37:45.597
suppose probably had 4,003, 3 or 4000
or something that could sit in the

00:37:45.630 --> 00:37:50.227
in the stands. Then we build another
one across the way and we build a

00:37:50.260 --> 00:37:55.807
dormitory underneath. Where was that?
That was just across, I mean that

00:37:55.840 --> 00:37:59.497
was the other side of the football
field.

00:37:59.530 --> 00:38:06.387
It was, I can't remember the name of
the streets over there now.

00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:09.907
Yeah,

00:38:09.940 --> 00:38:15.186
it was all normal. Yeah, normal
Avenue. But and and for I don't know

00:38:15.219 --> 00:38:18.206
whether right at the beginning or not
but for a long time it was used as

00:38:18.239 --> 00:38:24.046
an athletic dormitory. We had a
stadium. All the athletes lived in there.

00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:28.986
It was underneath the stadium but
there were rooms built in, their rooms

00:38:29.019 --> 00:38:34.236
were built in there and it was it was
used as a dormitory. It was a man's

00:38:34.269 --> 00:38:39.836
dorm. Was used as an athletic dorm for
a long time. Yeah.

00:38:39.869 --> 00:38:47.869
We didn't really start building until
oh, I suppose we built

00:38:48.420 --> 00:38:56.420
uh the Union building in about
Somewhere in the early 50s. We built the

00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:02.086
administration building which was also
the Business, the Business

00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:08.666
administration building. The other
wing Somewhere in the early 50s. So

00:39:08.699 --> 00:39:11.986
where was your office before that?

00:39:12.019 --> 00:39:20.019
My office was in the Hallway of
Matthews Hall when I 1st started. Yeah,

00:39:21.139 --> 00:39:25.327
that sounds kind of funny but that's
the truth. Matthews Matthews Library

00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:30.296
, as I told you before. The upper part
of it was used as an administrative

00:39:30.329 --> 00:39:34.787
offices, business office, registrar's
office, president's office. And then

00:39:34.820 --> 00:39:38.387
the basement also had had

00:39:38.420 --> 00:39:42.017
Poppy H I know it was down there mrs
krause and personnel was down there

00:39:42.050 --> 00:39:47.927
and a few others. But there was a back
door to Matthews which came by the

00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:53.436
business office and out through a
fairly good sized hallway. Oh I suppose

00:39:53.469 --> 00:39:57.247
it was 12 ft wide.

00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:02.967
The college switchboard was there and
my office was there, they closed off

00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:08.336
the door and that was my office
gradually we moved, we moved to the lyceum

00:40:08.369 --> 00:40:14.510
building I think was the first place
we moved to while we were building.

00:40:14.710 --> 00:40:16.710
What was general stores in physical plant. And my office was in that. We

00:40:21.590 --> 00:40:29.026
moved all around

00:40:29.059 --> 00:40:31.557
right

00:40:31.590 --> 00:40:36.217
on Matthews hall. Matthews hall was a
girls dormitory. Matthews what is

00:40:36.250 --> 00:40:41.407
Matthews library in the administrative
area was where the main switchboard

00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:45.836
was in my office, in the back, what
what was the switchboard? What did the

00:40:45.869 --> 00:40:50.887
campus switchboard do? Well, it was a
plug in type, you know, it had an

00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:54.347
operator and so if you call the
university you got the operator and then

00:40:54.380 --> 00:40:58.177
they plug you into whichever
department you wanted and that was, it had

00:40:58.210 --> 00:41:03.416
one, whatever you call it. One bank of
plugs, you know? And uh that was

00:41:03.449 --> 00:41:09.217
there for quite some time quite a
while. That was the only communication

00:41:09.250 --> 00:41:14.416
system that we had in those days then
there was one phone number to call.

00:41:14.449 --> 00:41:19.666
 Right. That's exactly right.

00:41:19.699 --> 00:41:25.177
Oh, I wouldn't have any idea really.
But I doubt if there were more than

00:41:25.210 --> 00:41:31.206
100 to most. I have no idea how many
phones, phones. There were one

00:41:31.239 --> 00:41:37.037
switchboard. One switchboard operator.
Mm hmm. Okay. When we moved from

00:41:37.070 --> 00:41:42.747
there over to the building, it was
called General Stores and physical

00:41:42.780 --> 00:41:49.327
Plant. They moved the switchboard at
that time and put in a much larger

00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:57.117
switchboard. But it was still manually
operated. And I guess now the

00:41:57.150 --> 00:41:59.927
switchboard, if you want to call it,
that communications is in the

00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:04.387
basement of old main and takes up the
whole takes up the whole basement.

00:42:04.420 --> 00:42:09.747
That's mostly of course it's mostly
automated. So yeah. Yeah. Nobody. No

00:42:09.780 --> 00:42:13.267
switchboard operators to talk to, you
know, Not anymore. Well, do you do

00:42:13.300 --> 00:42:17.247
have an operator and we do have an
operator? Yeah, you can call an

00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:20.126
operator and get information.

00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:23.947
You mentioned that you were debating
whether to stay in the Air Force when

00:42:23.980 --> 00:42:28.046
you were offered this job. You
remember what the salary was. Yes, I

00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:33.086
certainly do. I came back at a
contract of $2400 a year. I thought that

00:42:33.119 --> 00:42:39.767
was pretty good to be honest with you.
And uh it gradually went up from

00:42:39.800 --> 00:42:44.867
there. But it didn't grow up very fast
and mm hmm. And that was year round.

00:42:44.900 --> 00:42:49.867
You work around here around $2400 a
year. Well I think you know what

00:42:49.900 --> 00:42:53.697
would would help if you tell that
story and tell how much you made as a

00:42:53.730 --> 00:42:58.276
pilot. Because I know the Air Force
pay was not, you know, Well I was

00:42:58.309 --> 00:43:06.309
getting about the same as a pilot
because pilots got flight pay. Uh if I

00:43:06.550 --> 00:43:12.146
if I I came out as a really came out
as a major so I had a little bit more

00:43:12.179 --> 00:43:16.486
than than the ordinary pilot, you
know? But I probably was making about

00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:18.566
$2400.

00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:22.626
Yes, as a pilot in the Air Force. So I
thought well if I can get a

00:43:22.659 --> 00:43:28.396
civilian job at the same. Well that
wasn't too bad. I know it sounds like

00:43:28.429 --> 00:43:32.706
a very very small amount but we lived
on it, you know, it's amazing how

00:43:32.739 --> 00:43:40.739
the fact we've got my first house that
I that I bought Cost Me $80 $200.

00:43:41.400 --> 00:43:47.037
My payments were something like $38 a
month. You know, I had it and bought

00:43:47.070 --> 00:43:50.537
it on the G. I. Bill of course. And I
think my payments were about $38 a

00:43:50.570 --> 00:43:58.570
month. It was on Orange Street about
two blocks east of the university,

00:43:58.699 --> 00:44:03.256
which is now a parking lot. Also
parking garage

00:44:03.289 --> 00:44:09.686
when my wife and I and Our two kids
moved From that house to the one we

00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:15.327
live in now, which is, we've lived in
for 40 some years. Our payments went

00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:21.767
up to 120 some dollars a month. And we
were really worried as to whether

00:44:21.800 --> 00:44:27.497
or not we could even afford that, you
know. But we managed, we managed I

00:44:27.530 --> 00:44:33.456
bet if the house is worth a lot more
than that. Yes it is, yeah.

00:44:33.489 --> 00:44:36.256
Ah

00:44:36.289 --> 00:44:38.947
You know when you start talking about
salaries and things it's kind of

00:44:38.980 --> 00:44:44.577
amazing. Well everybody was doing
that. I don't think the professors were

00:44:44.610 --> 00:44:50.697
doing any better because they of
course they only had a nine month a year

00:44:50.730 --> 00:44:54.557
salary in those days. You know, they
didn't get paid in the summertime

00:44:54.590 --> 00:44:57.646
unless they taught summer school and
then they got an extra stipend for

00:44:57.679 --> 00:45:03.307
summer school. But um I'm sure that
their salaries weren't any larger than

00:45:03.340 --> 00:45:11.340
that. Mhm. It was it was really
budgets were pretty slim in those days.

00:45:11.590 --> 00:45:18.706
The legislature was not, the
legislature did not treat A. S. U. Arizona

00:45:18.739 --> 00:45:21.997
State College at that time as well as
they treated at the University of

00:45:22.030 --> 00:45:25.657
Arizona. Not by alongside,

00:45:25.690 --> 00:45:29.646
well I don't really know too much
about that. The University of Arizona

00:45:29.679 --> 00:45:34.756
was the university of, of the state.
You know the land grant college,

00:45:34.789 --> 00:45:39.347
although it wasn't any older than
Arizona State was, but it was a land

00:45:39.380 --> 00:45:43.887
grant college and it was the
university and it was Probably the most

00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:49.166
prestigious one around, you know and
we were just a little small normal

00:45:49.199 --> 00:45:53.677
school to start with and then became a
teacher's college. So our budgets

00:45:53.710 --> 00:45:56.796
were much much smaller than the
University of Arizona. They were doing

00:45:56.829 --> 00:46:00.717
research and research at A. S. U. Was
practically non existent in those

00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:06.646
days. So I bet you were much much
smaller.

00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:11.747
The Board of Regents was formed. Now,
I'm not exactly sure of the year on

00:46:11.780 --> 00:46:17.666
this, but the border regions was
formed sometime after the war as a full

00:46:17.699 --> 00:46:21.586
border regions for all three
universities, each one used to have their own

00:46:21.619 --> 00:46:27.206
board and our board didn't fare as
well at the university, I mean at the

00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:31.407
legislature as the University of
Arizona's did and that kept on going for

00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:37.747
years and years and years. I think
they're pretty equal right now. But mhm.

00:46:37.780 --> 00:46:41.247
For a long, long time, they weren't,
we really scratched for a long time

00:46:41.280 --> 00:46:46.217
after the war, especially with the
influx of students. You know, we're

00:46:46.250 --> 00:46:50.597
taking on double enrollments every
year for three or four years was quite

00:46:50.630 --> 00:46:55.506
a, quite a chore. We lived on surplus.
I didn't tell you about this. Right

00:46:55.539 --> 00:47:02.486
after the war, the federal government
allowed educational institutions to

00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:06.307
get surplus property and they were
giving away a lot of stuff and it was

00:47:06.340 --> 00:47:10.026
all the war equipment and so forth was
going, you know, they had to get

00:47:10.059 --> 00:47:14.327
rid of it. So they allowed educational
institutions to acquire surplus

00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:20.847
property for nothing. They had a
surplus property administrator in Arizona

00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:25.376
and they had a warehouse and so forth.
And for a long time, we practically

00:47:25.409 --> 00:47:31.316
lived on surplus property. We built
our motor pool from surplus trucks,

00:47:31.349 --> 00:47:36.367
cars, a few cars, not many, but mostly
trucks, pickups. We had a big

00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:39.657
flatbed trailer that we got from
surplus. And we used that all over the

00:47:39.690 --> 00:47:45.037
campus. We've got a great big ah
record, I guess you would call it. It was

00:47:45.070 --> 00:47:49.807
kind of a crane and we used that
around the campus to move trees and do

00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.747
all this. So we did, our motor pool
was practically all government surplus.

00:47:54.780 --> 00:47:59.706
We got desks, we got office machines,
we got typewriters, we got lab

00:47:59.739 --> 00:48:04.336
equipment. I had one person working
for me that did nothing but go around

00:48:04.369 --> 00:48:09.387
to two air bases and various places to
see what was available. And we got

00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:13.477
, we've got an awful lot of that fact
is if it hadn't been for the surplus

00:48:13.510 --> 00:48:16.816
property program, I don't think we
would have survived for the first three

00:48:16.849 --> 00:48:21.827
or four years a week right after the
war. Well, I think we're still using

00:48:21.860 --> 00:48:25.836
some of the desks that we got.

00:48:25.869 --> 00:48:29.626
We got an awful lot of desks from
them. one of the funny things that

00:48:29.659 --> 00:48:35.117
happened, tell you a little story
about this. We had a man who was in

00:48:35.150 --> 00:48:41.046
charge of janitors and all of the
cleaning and so forth of the university

00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:46.617
and by the name of Bill Henry. Bill
Henry. Actually, it looked like the

00:48:46.650 --> 00:48:50.956
president of the university was a
tall, very dignified, gray haired man

00:48:50.989 --> 00:48:56.927
with glasses. He had when he when he
would dress up, he would have a stick

00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:02.637
pin with a diamond in his in his tie
and so forth. Anyway, he was in

00:49:02.670 --> 00:49:05.637
charge of

00:49:05.670 --> 00:49:09.486
all of the moving and so forth. And so
when we'd get a load of something

00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:13.327
coming in purpose property, why his
group would have to unload it and try

00:49:13.360 --> 00:49:17.697
to store it and try to find a place
for it. Well we needed mattresses.

00:49:17.730 --> 00:49:22.276
This is very early in the year in the
in the days and we had had all these

00:49:22.309 --> 00:49:25.447
students coming in, we had no place to
put them. We put cots in the

00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:29.376
basement of the lyceum, we put cuts
all over the place and we even had

00:49:29.409 --> 00:49:35.657
them in the gymnasium for a while. But
we had no mattresses. So I I don't

00:49:35.690 --> 00:49:38.686
remember exactly when, but we had a
flyer that showed that we could get

00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:44.927
mattresses from surplus. So I put in
an order for 1000 mattresses about

00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:48.776
three or four days later, here they
came truckload mattresses and Bill

00:49:48.809 --> 00:49:52.787
Henry unloaded them and we stored them
in the what was then the old

00:49:52.820 --> 00:49:57.046
gymnasium. It's gone now it's been
torn down, but that was the old

00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:01.356
gymnasium. We, well a couple of days
later, here comes another truckload

00:50:01.389 --> 00:50:06.137
of mattresses and he unloaded those
and stored pretty soon, we had

00:50:06.170 --> 00:50:10.267
mattresses all over the place. In fact
we had more mattresses and we could

00:50:10.300 --> 00:50:15.256
handle? They kept coming in by the
carloads. And what had happened was

00:50:15.289 --> 00:50:19.356
when the order got into wherever it
goes to surplus property. They had

00:50:19.389 --> 00:50:25.867
added unintentionally. It added a zero
to it. And we got 10,000 mattresses

00:50:25.900 --> 00:50:30.586
before we could shut them off the
gymnasium. I'm not kidding about this.

00:50:30.619 --> 00:50:35.387
The gymnasium was absolutely packed
with mattresses as high as you can see

00:50:35.420 --> 00:50:39.717
, you can just barely make little
lyle's through them. You know we used

00:50:39.750 --> 00:50:45.046
those mattresses for a year or so. We
they were kind of thin so we put

00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:49.456
about three on every bed, you know, so
it would be more comfortable. We

00:50:49.489 --> 00:50:55.497
used them in the in the physical
education classes from maps, we use them

00:50:55.530 --> 00:51:00.126
in ROTC for them to lay down and do
there. We had a little rifle range in

00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:06.276
the basement of the one of the dorms.
I mean one of the stadiums, we used

00:51:06.309 --> 00:51:09.427
them for everything and I'm sure there
were probably a lot of them

00:51:09.460 --> 00:51:13.566
disappeared around town too and all
that sort of thing. But that was a

00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:16.997
funny thing. Poor old Bill. He just
couldn't get him stopped. You know, it

00:51:17.030 --> 00:51:22.327
was one of those things where you
couldn't put the cork in it at all. And

00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:27.887
but we've had some great times and
that was a great story. Yeah,

00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:33.126
that's exactly right. Somebody else
said the same thing, the same thing

00:51:33.159 --> 00:51:36.126
couldn't get it stopped.

00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:39.456
So you said you were the assistant
business editor. How how big was the

00:51:39.489 --> 00:51:47.489
business department? Well, when I
started I had myself and one person,

00:51:47.760 --> 00:51:53.126
the business office itself probably
had. Mr Katie was the business manager

00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:55.526
um

00:51:55.559 --> 00:52:01.887
Cashier Tillman Krantz, who was the
Major clerk at that time. I mean the

00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:07.106
accountant, maybe three or 4 others
business office was probably sick

00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:09.916
people with the most.

00:52:09.949 --> 00:52:16.106
And we had, as I told you, we ran
everything that was Physical Plant

00:52:16.139 --> 00:52:22.927
bookstore. Mhm purchasing, memory,
graph, motor pool, everything that was

00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:27.787
part of the operation University
gradually over the years, of course, as

00:52:27.820 --> 00:52:31.867
it expanded why those were moved out
into separate. That's the way I might

00:52:31.900 --> 00:52:36.876
have got into purchasing. Mr. You
would ask me at one time which one of

00:52:36.909 --> 00:52:39.977
these departments I would rather have.
And at the time I thought well I've

00:52:40.010 --> 00:52:42.557
been interested in searching for a
long time and it's interesting to me.

00:52:42.590 --> 00:52:47.367
So I'll do that. And that's when I
moved over into strictly purchasing and

00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:51.717
nothing else. Well, I shouldn't say
nothing else purchasing and

00:52:51.750 --> 00:52:55.217
demographic and motor pool and those
things, I had those for a long time

00:52:55.250 --> 00:53:01.816
under my jurisdiction. Motor pool is
huge. Now

00:53:01.849 --> 00:53:06.267
actually uh it was it was pretty good
size in those days because we had an

00:53:06.300 --> 00:53:09.416
awful lot of surplus trucks and those
kind of things that we used at the

00:53:09.449 --> 00:53:13.956
university to. We even had busses. We
even had busses that we used not

00:53:13.989 --> 00:53:18.936
very not very dependable. In fact is a
lot of them broke down on field

00:53:18.969 --> 00:53:24.557
trips and that sort of thing. But they
were they were used

00:53:24.590 --> 00:53:29.247
any other special stories like that
that you remember, Not that I can

00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.316
recall right off hand.

00:53:32.349 --> 00:53:36.316
The

00:53:36.349 --> 00:53:40.307
University in those days was more of a
family type thing. You know, I'm

00:53:40.340 --> 00:53:46.416
talking about in the early 50s, late
40s and early 50s. I was gone again

00:53:46.449 --> 00:53:50.577
in two years. I was gone again in 50
and 51. I was recalled for the Korean

00:53:50.610 --> 00:53:58.427
War. And so I particularly of absence.
They came back in 51, but in the

00:53:58.460 --> 00:54:03.617
late 40s and the early 50s it was,
it's kind of like a family as far as

00:54:03.650 --> 00:54:10.247
the faculty and the staff and so were
the concern. We knew each other. We

00:54:10.280 --> 00:54:17.827
knew we went to the, I can't remember
what they call the room, but we had

00:54:17.860 --> 00:54:23.407
a, we had a room in the union building
that was used for faculty and staff

00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:26.396
coffee room more than anything else.
It was a lunch room, that's where

00:54:26.429 --> 00:54:29.967
they had lunch. But we also use it as
a coffee break. And and in those

00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.717
days you could meet for coffee and
talk to the dean's or talk to the heads

00:54:34.750 --> 00:54:37.947
of the departments or talk to anybody.
You know, you had, you had a

00:54:37.980 --> 00:54:42.307
relationship that they don't have
nowadays,

00:54:42.340 --> 00:54:45.316
You've known a lot of the different
presidents. Two. Why don't you tell me

00:54:45.349 --> 00:54:50.657
about some of the different presidents
I served under six I think. Dr

00:54:50.690 --> 00:54:55.017
Gamage of course was the first one and
he was I thought dr Gamble was

00:54:55.050 --> 00:54:59.506
great, Doctor Gammage was a great man.

00:54:59.539 --> 00:55:06.807
He he was a foundation of this
university really um

00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:14.166
very well liked, very well respected
in the community. He let most of the

00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:18.396
physical operation of the university
over into Gilbert Katie's hands

00:55:18.429 --> 00:55:23.247
really. And between the two of them
they kind of operated the university.

00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:28.407
But but dr which of course was was the
president.

00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:34.236
None of the academic work was done by
by Mr Katie. All of that was was on

00:55:34.269 --> 00:55:37.106
the other side of the academia.

00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:44.997
Um He passed away In about 1958. AM I
right? Something in that time. And

00:55:45.030 --> 00:55:50.137
then of course Homer Durham came after
that and Homer Durham was a very,

00:55:50.170 --> 00:55:55.106
very effective president and very,
very well liked.

00:55:55.139 --> 00:55:58.927
He got around the campus a lot more
than most of the presidents did he

00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:02.197
would you you would be working in your
office and first thing you look up

00:56:02.230 --> 00:56:05.227
and there's Homer Durham standing in
the doorway, just come by to say

00:56:05.260 --> 00:56:08.276
hello, you know, something like that
happened to be passing by and thought

00:56:08.309 --> 00:56:12.497
I'd just drop in and say hello, he do.
He did that quite often. He was

00:56:12.530 --> 00:56:18.956
quite a popular man and during Dr.
Durham's 10ure we had probably the

00:56:18.989 --> 00:56:26.836
largest building era of all in those
years. There were, from my memory

00:56:26.869 --> 00:56:32.407
serves me right, where there were
either 24 or 26 major buildings built

00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:36.997
during drums time.

00:56:37.030 --> 00:56:41.916
Um That was when the university was
really expanding, you know, and we

00:56:41.949 --> 00:56:48.767
became, we became a university, we
became a university just before Durham

00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:54.097
came, but then he really build it up
to different colleges and so forth.

00:56:54.130 --> 00:56:59.796
In fact, I think, I think we only had
three colleges to start with.

00:56:59.829 --> 00:57:04.717
Four. Was your office involved with
all that construction and yes,

00:57:04.750 --> 00:57:09.197
definitely, we did all the contracting
for it and did all the bidding for

00:57:09.230 --> 00:57:16.947
whatever is necessary. Um The major
building of course was Gammage

00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:22.997
Auditorium, which was built in those
days. The Image Auditorium was built

00:57:23.030 --> 00:57:27.037
With including the stage lighting, the
staging, the seating and so forth,

00:57:27.070 --> 00:57:31.197
worked for $2,800,000.

00:57:31.230 --> 00:57:35.747
I can remember signing the contract
for the building of Gambits auditorium

00:57:35.780 --> 00:57:40.137
the first time I had ever signed a
contract for over $1 million dollars in

00:57:40.170 --> 00:57:45.717
the building itself Was a million
something, just, just, just under $2

00:57:45.750 --> 00:57:52.106
million. I thought that was a huge,
huge contract in those days. Who did

00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:56.626
you sign the contract with? Well,
William Wesley Peters was the architect

00:57:56.659 --> 00:58:00.186
for the

00:58:00.219 --> 00:58:05.756
building, the building, you know, it's
a frank Lloyd wright concept, they

00:58:05.789 --> 00:58:09.336
call it a frank Lloyd wright building,
but it was never designed exactly

00:58:09.369 --> 00:58:13.526
by frank Lloyd wright. The concept was
done by frank Lloyd wright. The

00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:16.486
building itself.

00:58:16.519 --> 00:58:20.646
The idea of the building itself was
for Iran, you know, for the Shah of

00:58:20.679 --> 00:58:26.497
Iran but that was just sort of a
sketch more than anything else. And so

00:58:26.530 --> 00:58:32.236
when frank Lloyd Wright's foundation
was hired to do the the building of

00:58:32.269 --> 00:58:38.586
this, they used that and frank Lloyd
Wright himself did the concept, in

00:58:38.619 --> 00:58:42.447
other words, he was alive at that
time, the concept of the auditorium

00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:46.947
which was to have two round buildings
at that time. One of them the music

00:58:46.980 --> 00:58:50.606
building which is built and the other
one was to be the fine arts building

00:58:50.639 --> 00:58:54.947
on the other side. In other words the
wings going out and so forth, had to

00:58:54.980 --> 00:58:57.776
round buildings. Well we never did
build the fine arts building, we never

00:58:57.809 --> 00:59:01.506
did have the money at that time to do
it. And in fact we didn't have money

00:59:01.539 --> 00:59:05.787
to do the music all the music building
at that time we did one part of it

00:59:05.820 --> 00:59:13.820
, but he passed away dr Gammage passed
away and the building in was taken

00:59:14.449 --> 00:59:17.956
over by the frank Lloyd Wright
foundation and William Wesley Peters was

00:59:17.989 --> 00:59:21.387
the chief architect of that building
and he was the one that we dealt with

00:59:21.420 --> 00:59:24.316
of course at that time.

00:59:24.349 --> 00:59:29.186
Yes, yes. And did you ever know frank
Lloyd Wright? I didn't know him

00:59:29.219 --> 00:59:32.947
personally, although I have met him, I
used to see him walking with dr

00:59:32.980 --> 00:59:37.506
damage. They used to go out and kind
of walk the area on the where the

00:59:37.539 --> 00:59:42.077
curve is just to see at that time we
had hoped that he was going to build

00:59:42.110 --> 00:59:47.747
a building for us but the legislature
was not too happy to have frank

00:59:47.780 --> 00:59:51.066
Lloyd wright build our buildings. They
had turned down one as you know, he

00:59:51.099 --> 00:59:55.427
had a concept for the capitol building
at one time and they thought that

00:59:55.460 --> 00:59:59.697
was Disneyland and they didn't want to
build that. But anyway a second

00:59:59.730 --> 01:00:04.736
secondly frank Lloyd wright would not
Do business with the university for

01:00:04.769 --> 01:00:08.876
the six fee that the university was
allowed to pay. In other words that

01:00:08.909 --> 01:00:15.197
was a state Law that you couldn't pay
more than six to the architect. Well

01:00:15.230 --> 01:00:18.327
dr gamble was a personal friend of
frank Lloyd wright's and used to come

01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:22.776
over every once in a while and you'd
see him walking with his cape and his

01:00:22.809 --> 01:00:26.916
flat top hat walking around and they
were pointing out you know this and

01:00:26.949 --> 01:00:29.657
then something else I suppose they
were figuring out where the building

01:00:29.690 --> 01:00:37.690
should go but of course he passed away
before anything was really done.

01:00:38.409 --> 01:00:43.947
We got frank Lloyd wright group

01:00:43.980 --> 01:00:51.980
at 6% but we also had to pay on this
side for the seating and for the

01:00:53.320 --> 01:00:58.947
sound consultant and for quite a few
other things because He wouldn't pay

01:00:58.980 --> 01:01:03.497
for that in other words it wasn't
going to come out of his 6%. So we did

01:01:03.530 --> 01:01:07.586
manage to get a frank Lloyd Wright
building on the campus. So, did you

01:01:07.619 --> 01:01:13.106
personally meet him? I met him, but
that's, you know, just to say hello,

01:01:13.139 --> 01:01:18.936
that's about it. Were there other
other buildings on the building boom on

01:01:18.969 --> 01:01:21.166
campus?

01:01:21.199 --> 01:01:27.456
Well, the library, of course, we've
had an extension to the library since

01:01:27.489 --> 01:01:31.867
then, the underground part of it, but
the library was was one of the major

01:01:31.900 --> 01:01:35.876
buildings and a good building too.

01:01:35.909 --> 01:01:40.936
I can't even remember the architect on
that, I can't remember who the

01:01:40.969 --> 01:01:43.747
architect was on that, but that was a
major building, to it was something

01:01:43.780 --> 01:01:48.907
like $2 million dollars or something
in that nature and that really did

01:01:48.940 --> 01:01:52.816
that really. It was a great building
because it was just where it needed

01:01:52.849 --> 01:01:57.077
to be at that time. I mean it was
right in the very center of the campus

01:01:57.110 --> 01:02:01.907
and of course we only had one library.
Uh we've now got more than one

01:02:01.940 --> 01:02:05.626
library, but we only had that and that
was a, that was sort of a focal

01:02:05.659 --> 01:02:08.876
point that brought the, the campus
together. The thing that really brought

01:02:08.909 --> 01:02:14.367
the campus together though, where the
malls no doubt about it. When

01:02:14.400 --> 01:02:17.557
College Avenue went all the way
through and Orange Street went all the way

01:02:17.590 --> 01:02:22.456
through, clear the forest, it was
broken up because traffic went through

01:02:22.489 --> 01:02:25.387
there. It wasn't, it wasn't restricted
or anything. You know, even the

01:02:25.420 --> 01:02:30.026
townspeople drove back and forth
through their times all the time. And

01:02:30.059 --> 01:02:34.236
when those were closed and the malls
were built. Katie mall and Orange

01:02:34.269 --> 01:02:38.907
Mall. And all those sort of things
that really brought the campus together

01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:42.927
as a campus you know and not just
scattered out in a whole bunch of

01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.367
different places.

01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:47.456
Um

01:02:47.489 --> 01:02:53.916
um For Gilbert Gilbert, Katie the
malls were Gilbert's ideas actually and

01:02:53.949 --> 01:02:59.736
he was the concept of having the
campus closed was his idea. I suppose

01:02:59.769 --> 01:03:04.867
that's why the name actually Dr Durham
named campus small. Even though the

01:03:04.900 --> 01:03:10.146
region's didn't I think I think the
region's finally did make it official

01:03:10.179 --> 01:03:14.066
at one time or another. But at the
very beginning Dr Durham just called it

01:03:14.099 --> 01:03:18.686
campus called it Katie Mall and was
known as Katie mall from then on of

01:03:18.719 --> 01:03:25.276
course who was Gilbert Katie. Well
cooper Katie was was the business

01:03:25.309 --> 01:03:31.197
manager for Arizona State Teachers
College in Arizona state College and

01:03:31.230 --> 01:03:35.557
Arizona State University for I don't
know how many years from the time

01:03:35.590 --> 01:03:39.756
that he graduated from a issue. And
about the same time that Jimmy

01:03:39.789 --> 01:03:44.967
Crissman did something something like
1935.

01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:50.106
And I knew him personally because he
was a very very good friend of mine.

01:03:50.139 --> 01:03:55.537
He went into the Sea Sea Sea
Organization

01:03:55.570 --> 01:03:59.876
right after graduation and was a
member of the C. C. C. And that's where

01:03:59.909 --> 01:04:03.276
he found Tilman Krantz. I don't know
if you know that or not but Tillman

01:04:03.309 --> 01:04:07.756
Krantz was also in the C. C. C. And
Tim was a little older than the norm.

01:04:07.789 --> 01:04:12.646
But then the regular college student
when he came to college because he

01:04:12.679 --> 01:04:16.756
had been working in there with the C.
C. C. S. And when Gilbert left and

01:04:16.789 --> 01:04:22.117
came to work as a business manager and
I I'm not sure who hired him or

01:04:22.150 --> 01:04:25.407
anything, I don't know that history
well enough, I'm sure Dr Matthews was

01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:28.436
probably the one that hired him. I
mean Dr Gammage was the one that hired

01:04:28.469 --> 01:04:34.456
him. But anyway he brought Tillman
with him. Tillman Krantz with our chief

01:04:34.489 --> 01:04:39.606
accountant at the university for a
number of years. Did all the budgets,

01:04:39.639 --> 01:04:42.006
did all of the you know and did all
that sort of thing and it was a

01:04:42.039 --> 01:04:46.126
student worker for Gilbert for quite
some time. But that's kind of beside

01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:51.206
the point. Anyway he was he was in the
C. C. C. And also a member of the

01:04:51.239 --> 01:04:57.416
Army Reserve. So when the war came
along he was called up right away, he

01:04:57.449 --> 01:05:02.376
was called up before any of the rest
of us were in the reserves and he he

01:05:02.409 --> 01:05:06.827
spent his time mostly over in the
Middle East, he was in Iran and in that

01:05:06.860 --> 01:05:11.157
area he was in the Quartermaster Corps
which was a supply outfits, you

01:05:11.190 --> 01:05:15.736
know that sort of thing. Anyway he
came back before I got out of the

01:05:15.769 --> 01:05:21.057
service, he came back probably and

01:05:21.090 --> 01:05:25.256
December November 19

01:05:25.289 --> 01:05:31.057
45 I guess. But it was a war over 1945

01:05:31.090 --> 01:05:36.467
And I didn't get out of the service
until February 1946. But anyway, he

01:05:36.500 --> 01:05:41.697
was the business manager and he was a
close friend of Dr Gammage and the

01:05:41.730 --> 01:05:47.887
two of them worked very well together.
And Gilbert really, I kind of ran

01:05:47.920 --> 01:05:54.497
the university for a long, long time.
There was a story in the one time

01:05:54.530 --> 01:05:58.756
about the state press saying,

01:05:58.789 --> 01:06:01.626
let me see if I can remember all this.
But anyway, the state press came

01:06:01.659 --> 01:06:04.836
out with the story, there's a
windstorm came along and blew off a corner

01:06:04.869 --> 01:06:12.796
of of the old, which is now the
anthropology building, blew off a corner

01:06:12.829 --> 01:06:17.197
that and the story written up in the
state press was told about it blowing

01:06:17.230 --> 01:06:22.807
off and said mr Katie was in phoenix
at the time, inferring that if he'd

01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:25.287
have been here they wouldn't have, it
wouldn't have happened, you know?

01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:27.646
But

01:06:27.679 --> 01:06:31.637
but anyway, he kind of ran the
university physically and I'm not talking

01:06:31.670 --> 01:06:36.097
about anything in uh on the academic
side, but physically, he practically

01:06:36.130 --> 01:06:39.447
ran the university. What was, what was
he like? What was his personality

01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:45.236
like? Well he was a pretty nice guy,
he was he was a lot different than a

01:06:45.269 --> 01:06:51.407
lot of people think he had a very, he
was a very kind person, he was our

01:06:51.440 --> 01:06:56.756
first student loan officer. The reason
I say that is because there are

01:06:56.789 --> 01:07:02.597
many times when students would come to
Gilbert Katie hoping to get a job

01:07:02.630 --> 01:07:05.767
or a loan or something, he'd pull 20
bucks out of his own pocket and

01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:10.276
handed to him, you know, pay me back
if you can, if you can't. That's

01:07:10.309 --> 01:07:14.486
perfectly alright. Do that happened?
Lots and lots of times he gave me a

01:07:14.519 --> 01:07:18.947
job, he gave he gave a lot of people
jobs that he knew needed them, you

01:07:18.980 --> 01:07:24.936
know, needed jobs. Uh he and mrs
Krauss worked together. Gilbert would

01:07:24.969 --> 01:07:30.986
give the job, but Mrs Kraus of course
had to Okay it the crosses were were

01:07:31.019 --> 01:07:34.206
a pair. Has anybody talked about the
crosses at all? Well, they were

01:07:34.239 --> 01:07:41.447
really a great pair. Mr Krause ran the
dining hall. Mrs Krause ran, I

01:07:41.480 --> 01:07:47.046
should say, Mr Crouse ran the kitchen.
Mrs Krouse ran the dining hall.

01:07:47.079 --> 01:07:51.557
They were a pair that they were here
Way before I ever even came to school

01:07:51.590 --> 01:07:56.287
, way before 37. I'm not this guy for
sure when they got here, but they

01:07:56.320 --> 01:08:01.557
ran the eating facility on the campus.
Mrs Cross was as strict as anything.

01:08:01.590 --> 01:08:04.376
If you didn't get there in time for
your meal and the door was closed.

01:08:04.409 --> 01:08:08.387
You just didn't get anything unless
you went around to the back and mr

01:08:08.420 --> 01:08:11.997
Cross would give you a sandwich or
something that always happened and

01:08:12.030 --> 01:08:16.177
never failed. He would always slip you
something, you know, but he was the

01:08:16.210 --> 01:08:21.637
chef and the and the man that ran the
kitchen.

01:08:21.670 --> 01:08:28.737
In addition to that Mrs Krouse was in
charge of student employment.

01:08:28.770 --> 01:08:35.067
What's her first name? Martha Martha
Crouch. Martha and bob Martha and bob

01:08:35.100 --> 01:08:42.166
Crouch and uh she was she was she was
as different from mr Krause as she

01:08:42.199 --> 01:08:47.237
could be, she was very strict and you
know, not a kind of grouchy all the

01:08:47.270 --> 01:08:52.116
time, you know, and he was just as
kind as he could be. Now, the dining

01:08:52.149 --> 01:08:58.786
room in those days was a cafeteria
style And it opened it, I don't know,

01:08:58.819 --> 01:09:02.767
let's just say 1130 and close at
12:30. And if you didn't weren't there by

01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:05.336
that time you just didn't get anything
to eat unless you unless you knew

01:09:05.369 --> 01:09:12.496
Mr Cross. But the menu was always the
same on monday and Tuesday, I mean

01:09:12.529 --> 01:09:16.107
it wasn't the same on consecutive
days, but whatever you had this monday,

01:09:16.140 --> 01:09:18.517
you were going to have the next
monday, Whatever you had, this Tuesday,

01:09:18.550 --> 01:09:22.506
we're gonna have the next Tuesday.
They usually had only one entree out of

01:09:22.539 --> 01:09:27.357
the thing if you had braised beef and
mashed potatoes on monday you're

01:09:27.390 --> 01:09:31.586
going to get the next monday to the
food was good, I couldn't you can't

01:09:31.619 --> 01:09:36.256
complain about that, but it had no
imagination to it whatsoever, you know

01:09:36.289 --> 01:09:42.826
, it was just good, solid food and
most of the the dining room staff or

01:09:42.859 --> 01:09:47.446
students, both the servers and in
fact, I'd like to say I washed dishes

01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:52.866
there for a couple of years and
everything, but the cooks and the main,

01:09:52.899 --> 01:09:59.336
even the cashier was a student, I can
remember that too. Um

01:09:59.369 --> 01:10:03.017
But they were they were quite a pair
and they lasted for a long, long time

01:10:03.050 --> 01:10:08.756
until until the dining room, the cross
hall dining room moved over to the

01:10:08.789 --> 01:10:12.727
union building.

01:10:12.760 --> 01:10:18.286
But they were they were a long time
pair at the university. You were

01:10:18.319 --> 01:10:23.576
talking about Gilbert Katie, how how
long did he stay when he retired? He

01:10:23.609 --> 01:10:30.326
retired I'm guessing now, but it's
somewhere about 1980.

01:10:30.359 --> 01:10:32.876
No,

01:10:32.909 --> 01:10:36.836
In the 70s sometime actually Gilbert
Katie passed away and I think he was

01:10:36.869 --> 01:10:41.666
still working at the time. Now there's
where my memory sir doesn't serve

01:10:41.699 --> 01:10:44.777
me. I'm not sure whether he had just
retired or whether he was still

01:10:44.810 --> 01:10:50.126
working at the time. He passed away of
a heart attack in about

01:10:50.159 --> 01:10:53.126
The late 70s sometime.

01:10:53.159 --> 01:10:57.996
So you worked for him. I worked for
him. I worked for him, He was my boss

01:10:58.029 --> 01:11:04.557
for a number of years. Uh Even when I
went into strictly purchasing it

01:11:04.590 --> 01:11:08.557
still I still reported he was vice
president for business affairs at that

01:11:08.590 --> 01:11:12.256
time. He became first off he was
business manager and then he became

01:11:12.289 --> 01:11:15.397
comfortable and then he was made
business vice president for business

01:11:15.430 --> 01:11:20.177
affairs. And uh he handled of course
business affairs, handled the

01:11:20.210 --> 01:11:23.406
accounting of the business office and
the purchasing and the physical

01:11:23.439 --> 01:11:29.826
plant and all that sort of thing. He
didn't marry until he was well into

01:11:29.859 --> 01:11:36.286
his years. I don't know exactly but he
married Dorothy pain. That's right.

01:11:36.319 --> 01:11:40.836
You would know that wouldn't you
married a girl by the name of Dorothy

01:11:40.869 --> 01:11:46.446
pain. She had she had been a nurse in
the in the university or the college

01:11:46.479 --> 01:11:51.366
infirmary. That's where he got
acquainted with her. Uh And they married

01:11:51.399 --> 01:11:55.727
and had two kids back. Dorothy is
still living, she lives in Tucson now

01:11:55.760 --> 01:11:57.826
and

01:11:57.859 --> 01:12:03.437
I didn't know she was in place. Yeah
she's she's in a rest home in Tucson

01:12:03.470 --> 01:12:08.546
now. Yeah. We're talking about some of
the different presidents. I think

01:12:08.579 --> 01:12:15.357
we've got sidetracked. Well yeah I
guess we got as far as Homer Durham. Uh

01:12:15.390 --> 01:12:20.086
The next president of course was Harry
New Bern I guess for a short period

01:12:20.119 --> 01:12:28.119
of time. Um Am I right harry newborn
before Suada. And during the time he

01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:32.397
was sort of an interim president.
Although he was not called an interim

01:12:32.430 --> 01:12:36.477
president, he was the president but a
short period of time between Homer

01:12:36.510 --> 01:12:43.217
Durham and john Suara john's water
came came from Missouri.

01:12:43.250 --> 01:12:47.937
I brought some good people with him.
Al Metcalf I think brought troy

01:12:47.970 --> 01:12:50.156
crowder.

01:12:50.189 --> 01:12:53.517
Very good.

01:12:53.550 --> 01:12:56.496
You shouldn't have asked me that
because that's where my memory fails me

01:12:56.529 --> 01:12:59.717
but

01:12:59.750 --> 01:13:03.416
probably

01:13:03.449 --> 01:13:09.147
70s somewhere in the 70s. He was a
little bit he was quite a bit different

01:13:09.180 --> 01:13:13.536
than Durham I thought he was. He was a
good man but he didn't get around

01:13:13.569 --> 01:13:17.756
the campus very much. He stayed pretty
much up in the Towers, you know, up

01:13:17.789 --> 01:13:24.477
in in the in his own office. He, he
didn't really circulate as much as, as

01:13:24.510 --> 01:13:27.817
a president I think should have and he
really didn't do as good a job with

01:13:27.850 --> 01:13:34.880
the Legislature as Gammage and Durham
and some of those have done before.

01:13:36.149 --> 01:13:38.149
Forget how many years he was here, maybe seven or 8, something like that.

01:13:42.649 --> 01:13:44.649
Was that a big part of the president's job was dealing with the

01:13:45.340 --> 01:13:48.916
legislation

01:13:48.949 --> 01:13:55.937
then we had um, let me see after
slaughter came nelson, nelson. What was

01:13:55.970 --> 01:14:00.817
he like? Well, I never really got to
know president nelson very well. He

01:14:00.850 --> 01:14:06.477
was he was a good president. I would
not say he was outstanding in any

01:14:06.510 --> 01:14:11.217
particular way, but he was a good
president. He certainly got around a lot

01:14:11.250 --> 01:14:17.826
more than Suada did. He wasn't
terrifically effective with the legislature

01:14:17.859 --> 01:14:20.107
,

01:14:20.140 --> 01:14:22.506
but

01:14:22.539 --> 01:14:25.866
they did a reasonably good job. I
didn't really know him personally that

01:14:25.899 --> 01:14:28.206
well.

01:14:28.239 --> 01:14:31.987
And of course then after that laddie
core, of course I was retired by that

01:14:32.020 --> 01:14:36.807
time. But I know laddie, I've known
his family for a long, long time. So,

01:14:36.840 --> 01:14:41.097
you know, I think from my perspective,
I think he did a very good job,

01:14:41.130 --> 01:14:47.756
laddie corded excellent job. When did
you retire? When did I retired? And

01:14:47.789 --> 01:14:53.906
actually retired in 1986. But I worked
part time until 1988.

01:14:53.939 --> 01:14:59.756
No, So you really saw the growth of
the university? Yes. From about 1200

01:14:59.789 --> 01:15:04.307
students up to 50,000

01:15:04.340 --> 01:15:08.036
And I don't know how many buildings
are on campus now, but we had probably

01:15:08.069 --> 01:15:11.977
about 10 or 12 when I first started
here. Major buildings, I'm talking

01:15:12.010 --> 01:15:16.237
about you were talking about during
those growth years, you were kind of

01:15:16.270 --> 01:15:20.826
overseeing a lot of the contracts for
those buildings. People complain at

01:15:20.859 --> 01:15:24.156
that time, like, like they do now
about the disruption caused by the

01:15:24.189 --> 01:15:28.807
construction and that's all. No, not
at all. Then we were glad to be doing

01:15:28.840 --> 01:15:32.017
it, you know, I don't think that there
was any complaints in that respect

01:15:32.050 --> 01:15:36.506
at all. Um, of course we had, we had
more room then. I mean, it's not, it

01:15:36.539 --> 01:15:40.687
wasn't as congested as it is now. You
didn't have to close off streets and

01:15:40.720 --> 01:15:43.376
all that sort of thing. We were, we
were able to do the construction

01:15:43.409 --> 01:15:48.987
without any, without any real
problems. But we were building pretty fast

01:15:49.020 --> 01:15:54.097
in those years. We're going, we build
dormitories, were built, classroom

01:15:54.130 --> 01:15:56.807
buildings were built

01:15:56.840 --> 01:16:03.597
part of the union, attention to the
union,

01:16:03.630 --> 01:16:09.397
the stadium, the Sun Devils, Big
stadium now, yes, we contracted for that

01:16:09.430 --> 01:16:13.196
too. That was kind of an interesting
thing. You know, Kemper Goodwin was

01:16:13.229 --> 01:16:16.626
supposed to do the stadium, be the
architect for the stadium to start with

01:16:16.659 --> 01:16:24.406
, but uh, he didn't particularly care
for the site that was chosen the

01:16:24.439 --> 01:16:30.166
site between the two buttes. His main
concern actually, there was a time

01:16:30.199 --> 01:16:35.097
that people wanted it out in Papago
park, you know, that was the idea,

01:16:35.130 --> 01:16:37.906
we're gonna build a new stadium, we're
gonna put it out in Papago park

01:16:37.939 --> 01:16:42.187
because it's more accessible to the
general public and so forth. Well,

01:16:42.220 --> 01:16:45.616
that idea never did go over, they
decided to build it between the two

01:16:45.649 --> 01:16:49.656
buttes and kemper's problem at that
time was he was just sure that the

01:16:49.689 --> 01:16:53.727
blasting and so forth was going to
cause problems in the city of Tempe,

01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:58.756
with buildings in the city of Tempe.
And as a result, he would not, he

01:16:58.789 --> 01:17:03.866
would not take the contract, which is
sort of the way kemper worked. You

01:17:03.899 --> 01:17:11.899
know, Kemper was a, an individual and
if he thought that wasn't gonna be

01:17:12.069 --> 01:17:15.927
the right place to put it, he wasn't
going to be a part of it. Actually

01:17:15.960 --> 01:17:19.586
turned out it was okay. The blasting
did not hurt anything else. And it

01:17:19.619 --> 01:17:24.777
was probably a pretty darn good site
for the, for the stadium and would be

01:17:24.810 --> 01:17:31.397
a good site for the stadium now too,
as far as I'm concerned.

01:17:31.430 --> 01:17:37.397
So there was controversy even back
then about where to put the,

01:17:37.430 --> 01:17:42.147
Did you ever think when you first came
here in 1937, that would be kind of

01:17:42.180 --> 01:17:48.517
campus? Not a clue. No way. Did we
ever think it would be the size that it

01:17:48.550 --> 01:17:52.496
is now? I suppose so,

01:17:52.529 --> 01:17:55.987
maybe because we were close to it, you
know, it's just like they say, whoa

01:17:56.020 --> 01:17:59.637
, I bet you made a lot of money
because, you know, the price of land in

01:17:59.670 --> 01:18:02.687
phoenix and all that sort of thing.
Well, the people that were here

01:18:02.720 --> 01:18:06.906
couldn't see it as well as the people
from outside, we just thought it was

01:18:06.939 --> 01:18:10.446
a desert, you know, and we never could
get water to all this land and so

01:18:10.479 --> 01:18:13.597
forth around. Kind of the same with
the university, It was a small

01:18:13.630 --> 01:18:16.557
university when we started and we
didn't have any idea that it was going

01:18:16.590 --> 01:18:23.086
to grow up to be one of the major
universities of the country, you know?

01:18:23.119 --> 01:18:28.137
But of course, you can't you can't
expect anything else with the

01:18:28.170 --> 01:18:32.296
population increase of phoenix, you
know, in the valley and so forth, You

01:18:32.329 --> 01:18:38.189
know, that's just exploded too. So the
university just kept pace with that.

01:18:38.319 --> 01:18:40.319
It's getting too big now, as far as I'm concerned, I really liked the

01:18:43.039 --> 01:18:49.597
university when it was about 25,000
students better than when it got to be

01:18:49.630 --> 01:18:55.637
a major, huge university. It was more
personal. You knew people, I knew

01:18:55.670 --> 01:19:00.506
all of the deans department chairman
and so forth. And later on in the

01:19:00.539 --> 01:19:03.467
years, you got to the point where you
didn't even, you didn't even know

01:19:03.500 --> 01:19:06.277
people, you you'd see them and you
wouldn't even know who they were. They

01:19:06.310 --> 01:19:08.517
might have been on the campus for
three or four years and you've never

01:19:08.550 --> 01:19:13.437
seen him, you know, it got to be too
impersonal, as far as I'm concerned,

01:19:13.470 --> 01:19:18.137
and that's not because of the
universities because that's the way it is,

01:19:18.170 --> 01:19:24.416
It's too big, you know, it is a small
city now and it's growing and

01:19:24.449 --> 01:19:29.517
growing and growing. I'll be back at
some of the other kind of landmark

01:19:29.550 --> 01:19:34.166
events. You remember when the name was
changed, I remember when the name

01:19:34.199 --> 01:19:38.446
was changed. That was a real, real
experience to go through because we

01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:41.586
were so

01:19:41.619 --> 01:19:45.857
anxious to get this. It was already a
university, but we have never gotten

01:19:45.890 --> 01:19:49.876
the name changed. You know, we were so
anxious to do it and the University

01:19:49.909 --> 01:19:53.597
of Arizona was so much against it that
we didn't know whether we were

01:19:53.630 --> 01:19:58.206
actually going to win that fight or
not. But with the help of people like

01:19:58.239 --> 01:20:05.807
Chrisman and Mrs Gammage and others
that tom lily kuo and people that went

01:20:05.840 --> 01:20:11.927
around the state talking to rotary
clubs and lions clubs and Chambers of

01:20:11.960 --> 01:20:17.437
Commerce and all that sort of thing.
The vote really was overwhelming in

01:20:17.470 --> 01:20:23.256
favor of of making the university
funny thing though, there was a report

01:20:23.289 --> 01:20:26.416
now, I'm not exactly sure about how
this happened, but there was a report

01:20:26.449 --> 01:20:32.446
on the radio right after the right
after the counting started or something

01:20:32.479 --> 01:20:37.916
on a balance that we were losing. We
were losing heavily, which was an air

01:20:37.949 --> 01:20:42.217
, but everybody was so downhearted
when they heard that report, you know,

01:20:42.250 --> 01:20:46.487
we were losing heavily. Well actually
it was it was a mistake very shortly

01:20:46.520 --> 01:20:50.876
after that. It was corrected and we
won overwhelmingly. I can remember

01:20:50.909 --> 01:20:54.477
seeing dr Gammage out there on the we
have a picture of him, you know,

01:20:54.510 --> 01:20:59.107
standing on the balcony with his arms
raised like this students down below

01:20:59.140 --> 01:21:03.177
and they when they found out that it
had passed,

01:21:03.210 --> 01:21:06.376
what difference did it make?

01:21:06.409 --> 01:21:09.576
Well, I think it made a big difference
in the fact that it was, it was

01:21:09.609 --> 01:21:12.927
called the university, a university
and a college or difference. You know

01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:17.956
, college only has 111 function. One
college university has a number of

01:21:17.989 --> 01:21:23.927
functions, a number of colleges and it
just made it able to become a

01:21:23.960 --> 01:21:30.076
larger research university and not
stay as a teacher's college.

01:21:30.109 --> 01:21:35.237
And and as long as we were, as long as
we were all were university as such

01:21:35.270 --> 01:21:38.866
, we might as well have the name of
the university. And the only thing

01:21:38.899 --> 01:21:42.147
that kept it from being named a long
time ago was the University of

01:21:42.180 --> 01:21:48.987
Arizona. He didn't want another
institution to be called a university and

01:21:49.020 --> 01:21:52.876
Flagstaff road in on the coattails of
everything else. They just walked in

01:21:52.909 --> 01:21:58.897
and became university. So one of the
things that we had to change all that.

01:21:58.930 --> 01:22:03.666
Well, yes, you had to change a lot.
That was kind of your department. It

01:22:03.699 --> 01:22:08.616
wasn't a bad deal though. Nobody,
nobody worried about that. What about

01:22:08.649 --> 01:22:12.366
when they changed from being the
bulldogs?

01:22:12.399 --> 01:22:17.137
Well, but that happened, I can't tell
you the year that that happened, but

01:22:17.170 --> 01:22:25.170
that happened Way back in the mid 40s.
Yeah. And uh, there was, there was

01:22:26.090 --> 01:22:29.706
a little controversy on that because a
lot of the alumni didn't want it to

01:22:29.739 --> 01:22:33.717
change, you know, I didn't want to
lose the name of the bulldogs, but I

01:22:33.750 --> 01:22:37.126
don't know, I think there was more
people that were in favor of a newer,

01:22:37.159 --> 01:22:43.487
newer name and the fact that they
Disney people drew a character, you know

01:22:43.520 --> 01:22:47.616
, of a sun devil and that's the way
the names came in. And then of course

01:22:47.649 --> 01:22:52.607
that was at the time when the scent
angels became came into being to the

01:22:52.640 --> 01:22:57.876
story about how the Sun devil image
came up. I don't really know that the

01:22:57.909 --> 01:23:03.916
real story, except that uh, somebody
contacted the Disney people and uh,

01:23:03.949 --> 01:23:07.946
that was, they were the ones that drew
all of the, all the animation, you

01:23:07.979 --> 01:23:13.857
know, for the sun devil sparky, of
course it wasn't called sparky at that

01:23:13.890 --> 01:23:17.777
time, but, but that's what it was, it
was the same little devil, you know

01:23:17.810 --> 01:23:25.177
? And then the Sun angels came into
being right shortly after that too,

01:23:25.210 --> 01:23:28.366
and they took their name from,

01:23:28.399 --> 01:23:33.187
from the Sun Devils that just decided
it would be the other way around.

01:23:33.220 --> 01:23:40.567
You know, they would be the son angel
and they sent angels where there

01:23:40.600 --> 01:23:43.826
we're the ones that really brought the
university into prominence as far

01:23:43.859 --> 01:23:48.166
as athletics were concerned, we would
never have done it without them?

01:23:48.199 --> 01:23:51.416
Well, if you look back over your long
career, here, is there anything that

01:23:51.449 --> 01:23:57.557
stands out that you're proudest of
that you were involved with? I suppose

01:23:57.590 --> 01:24:04.017
the fact that we put the university on
a a computer basis while I was

01:24:04.050 --> 01:24:08.366
there. You know it's completely
different now but at the time we were

01:24:08.399 --> 01:24:13.126
really we were really way ahead of our
time. We computerized the

01:24:13.159 --> 01:24:17.546
purchasing department and and that was
quite a function. That was quite a

01:24:17.579 --> 01:24:22.256
feat of course the university was
going into a computerized accounting

01:24:22.289 --> 01:24:28.487
system and so all of it fell together.
That was one of the things that I

01:24:28.520 --> 01:24:33.897
think that happened during my time
that we were kind of proud of of course

01:24:33.930 --> 01:24:36.727
that's all gone now and they do
they've got a completely different

01:24:36.760 --> 01:24:43.097
accounting system but in the
accounting system they have now will be

01:24:43.130 --> 01:24:46.427
obsolete pretty soon. They'll have
another one. You know because those

01:24:46.460 --> 01:24:49.857
things do happen fast.

01:24:49.890 --> 01:24:53.487
But I don't know I guess just the fact
that it just kind of grew with the

01:24:53.520 --> 01:24:57.357
university. We first started out, my
purchasing department was myself and

01:24:57.390 --> 01:25:02.987
mrs May Civil May. She typed all the
purchase orders by hand. We get a

01:25:03.020 --> 01:25:06.057
requisition in from the department and
she typed the purchase order and

01:25:06.090 --> 01:25:09.927
she always type with four fingers And
she could type with four fingers as

01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:14.576
fast as anybody else could. And she
typed the purchase orders. And that

01:25:14.609 --> 01:25:19.506
was that was a total purchasing
department at that time. Of course it

01:25:19.539 --> 01:25:24.777
gradually grew until we finally got
some buyers and we got purchasing

01:25:24.810 --> 01:25:31.656
clerks and so forth and so on. By the
time I retired, I think I had that

01:25:31.689 --> 01:25:38.866
15 in the in the department, something
like that, plus of course people in

01:25:38.899 --> 01:25:41.277
stores and all that sort of thing that
I'm talking about. Just the

01:25:41.310 --> 01:25:45.456
purchasing department itself.

01:25:45.489 --> 01:25:50.437
What do you see as sort of the legacy
that you leave from the university?

01:25:50.470 --> 01:25:57.456
I don't know that I leave any really.
When I'm gone, I'll be gone. And you

01:25:57.489 --> 01:26:00.946
know, the only thing that they'll be
able to say is that I was the first

01:26:00.979 --> 01:26:08.546
and only purchasing agent from For the
1st 45 years of the university.

01:26:08.579 --> 01:26:13.246
And that's about it. That's pretty
remarkable.

01:26:13.279 --> 01:26:17.387
What advice do you give young people
today that are looking to decide on

01:26:17.420 --> 01:26:21.796
the career what to do with their
lives? Well, it's kind of like I told my

01:26:21.829 --> 01:26:25.347
daughters, you know, you want to find
something that you enjoy more than

01:26:25.380 --> 01:26:29.737
anything else. I mean you just take a
job, sometimes you might have to

01:26:29.770 --> 01:26:32.557
take a job because you can't find
anything else. But the main thing is to

01:26:32.590 --> 01:26:37.317
find something that you enjoy doing.
And I felt that way all through my

01:26:37.350 --> 01:26:42.366
career, I enjoyed going to work. I
enjoyed the people, I enjoyed the

01:26:42.399 --> 01:26:47.227
institution, I enjoyed the work we
were doing. I didn't have to get up in

01:26:47.260 --> 01:26:50.817
the morning and say, damn, I have to
go to work again. It was, it was an

01:26:50.850 --> 01:26:56.477
enjoyable career all the way through.
And that's what I would say is more

01:26:56.510 --> 01:27:01.307
important than how much money you're
going to make. It's whether or not

01:27:01.340 --> 01:27:04.770
you're going to enjoy what you're
doing.