WEBVTT 00:00:03.940 --> 00:00:05.940 I'm pam Stevenson and we're doing an oral history interview for the 00:00:09.300 --> 00:00:15.306 Arizona State University retirees Association Living History video project 00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:21.377 and today is october the 22nd of 2000 and three we're at the visitor 00:00:21.410 --> 00:00:26.846 information center of issue at rural road and Apache and I'll let you 00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:31.857 introduce yourself. Why don't you tell us your name and what your role was 00:00:31.890 --> 00:00:37.667 that the issue when you're retired? Well, my name is Carlton More and I 00:00:37.700 --> 00:00:42.266 came here as the director of the Center for Meteorite Studies and I 00:00:42.299 --> 00:00:47.266 retired as director of the Center for Meteorite Studies. So I may have the 00:00:47.299 --> 00:00:51.967 long longest term as an administrator in the same job in the university 00:00:52.000 --> 00:00:55.987 history. Some of the people we talked to came here as students. So that's 00:00:56.020 --> 00:00:59.737 why we kind of asked that. Um why don't you just go back a little bit and 00:00:59.770 --> 00:01:04.057 tell us about when you were, when you were born and where you were born. I 00:01:04.090 --> 00:01:08.337 grew up in hempstead. New york, hempstead is a suburb of new york city. My 00:01:08.370 --> 00:01:14.826 father was a teacher uh, of english and they decided pretty early. I 00:01:14.859 --> 00:01:20.186 better off being a scientist, not an english student or a language student 00:01:20.219 --> 00:01:27.027 as my mother taught and I went through kindergarten through high school in 00:01:27.060 --> 00:01:34.126 hempstead, which then was a very nice place to live. Ah I went to college 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:39.906 at Alfred University in new york in the college of ceramics. I've just 00:01:39.939 --> 00:01:45.316 been Digging through some of my old things and found out that when I went 00:01:45.349 --> 00:01:51.426 there in 1950, the tuition was zero and that's why, I I went there and won 00:01:51.459 --> 00:01:57.007 a region scholarship. which is a competitive exam in new york. And so that 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.206 paid my room and board. So of course my parents nothing to send me to 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:04.706 school. If you're going to be a scientist, why would you go to college? 00:02:04.739 --> 00:02:09.476 Well, it's, it's a ceramic science and ceramic engineering. To tell you 00:02:09.509 --> 00:02:12.297 the truth, I didn't know what it was when I went there. All I knew the 00:02:12.330 --> 00:02:15.997 price was right and the principal of the high school had gone there and 00:02:16.030 --> 00:02:21.307 some other people I knew in new york state at the time, they didn't have a 00:02:21.340 --> 00:02:27.740 state university system. So you either went to a teacher's college or two. 00:02:28.340 --> 00:02:30.340 one of the contract colleges which were agriculture at Cornell, where 00:02:32.699 --> 00:02:38.297 George Bateman from A S you went and or ceramics at Alfred or forestry at 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:42.177 Syracuse, that's the only choice you had. That's the term I hadn't heard 00:02:42.210 --> 00:02:46.767 was ceramics. Um I know you neglected to tell us when you were born there. 00:02:46.800 --> 00:02:52.726 Was that intentional? Oh no, no, I was born September 1, 1932 I was born 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:56.406 in new york new york, but that, 00:02:56.439 --> 00:02:59.867 but I never lived there. So that's a, no, I mean, except for a few days, 00:02:59.900 --> 00:03:03.807 so that's insignificant. So when you went to college, what were you 00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:10.436 planning to do when you graduated? Well, I was a scholarly student and I 00:03:10.469 --> 00:03:16.406 really wasn't planning, I just went to college. And when I was there I met 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:20.006 very nice professors in 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:25.186 in the chemistry section in the ceramic college and one of them talked me 00:03:25.219 --> 00:03:30.626 into going to applying to caltech in Pasadena for graduate school. So I 00:03:30.659 --> 00:03:35.506 did that and got accepted and went there. And that's a wonderful school. 00:03:35.539 --> 00:03:40.876 Um That was a big move for you, wasn't it, from new york to California. 00:03:40.909 --> 00:03:46.047 Well, many people seem to don't want to move that far and it was fine with 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:50.536 me. I crossed the the country this summer before I went. I'd worked at 00:03:50.569 --> 00:03:58.436 Brookhaven National Laboratory, has a summer student. And and on a problem 00:03:58.469 --> 00:04:03.476 problem related to cosmic rays and I collected samples across the country 00:04:03.509 --> 00:04:10.226 going to caltech. Um I guess I should mention in grade school we had the 00:04:10.259 --> 00:04:17.007 same teacher in a subject matter Through 6th, 7th and 8th grade. And my 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:22.116 6th, 7th and 8th grade teacher, mrs Hoyer was very interested in geology, 00:04:22.149 --> 00:04:26.556 so I got interested in geology. So you say, what did I plan to do? I was 00:04:26.589 --> 00:04:30.296 interested in geology and yet I went to a school that didn't have a 00:04:30.329 --> 00:04:36.156 geology department. So what was your Bachelor's degree actually? Glass 00:04:36.189 --> 00:04:41.897 technology, Glass science. When you went to caltech then hopefully then 00:04:41.930 --> 00:04:46.007 when I went to caltech I went in chemistry 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:51.556 caltech, many people don't know is a very, very small school and they 00:04:51.589 --> 00:04:55.897 allow you to move from department to department quite easily in the 00:04:55.930 --> 00:05:01.017 chemistry department required you to have a minor and because of that 00:05:01.050 --> 00:05:04.887 interest in rocks and minerals from grade school, I minored in geology, 00:05:04.920 --> 00:05:09.507 some students minor in physics, some in math, some in biology depending 00:05:09.540 --> 00:05:15.577 upon their interest. And it was in the geology department that they had a 00:05:15.610 --> 00:05:21.356 professor named Harrison Brown who had come there from Chicago, who was 00:05:21.389 --> 00:05:25.457 very interested in meteorites. And that's how I got interested in in 00:05:25.490 --> 00:05:30.726 meteorites. So when did you first get interested in that? When I went to 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:36.627 graduate school? Except except in grade school and college, I was 00:05:36.660 --> 00:05:41.567 interested in rocks and meteorites are rocks. So I guess you mentioned 00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:46.106 that when you traveled across the country collected samples that well, 00:05:46.139 --> 00:05:52.606 what we were doing was that cosmic rays bombard everything on the earth. 00:05:52.639 --> 00:05:56.996 And if you have a rock which is exposed 00:05:57.029 --> 00:06:02.317 to the air, it begins to get radioactive a little bit. And they were 00:06:02.350 --> 00:06:07.027 trying to develop a technique which has now worked out very well to age 00:06:07.060 --> 00:06:12.087 date when that exposure took place. So, for example, jumping a little bit 00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:18.967 ahead. The age of meteor crater up by Winslow is 50,000 years. And that 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:23.846 date is determined by how long the rocks there have been exposed to the 00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.866 cosmic rays. In other words, when they're buried, they have no radio 00:06:28.899 --> 00:06:34.406 activity in them. Then all of a sudden there from the meteorite impact 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:39.786 shut out onto the surface and then they begin to collect the radio 00:06:39.819 --> 00:06:45.767 activity. So it's a geologic clock that we can use? So you mentioned on 00:06:45.800 --> 00:06:52.296 this trip I was collecting rocks because they were attempting to get rocks 00:06:52.329 --> 00:06:57.606 that would maybe test their idea. And and among the rocks I collected, 00:06:57.639 --> 00:07:03.217 we're like the wave cut terraces and like bonneville and Utah where the 00:07:03.250 --> 00:07:08.176 during glacial times, the lake bonneville was much larger than the great 00:07:08.209 --> 00:07:13.296 salt lake it is today. And was cutting benches into the rocks. So they 00:07:13.329 --> 00:07:19.986 said that's a period in time that they might be able to date. And so I 00:07:20.019 --> 00:07:24.837 collected all kinds of rocks. And then when actually I got to las Vegas, I 00:07:24.870 --> 00:07:28.056 tested them to see if they were chlorine in them because that's what we 00:07:28.089 --> 00:07:32.906 wanted to find and the ones that didn't have chlorine in, I left behind 00:07:32.939 --> 00:07:36.697 and the others I sent back to Brookhaven and of course I always thought 00:07:36.730 --> 00:07:40.796 some motel maid must have thought I was a complete nut leaving this pile 00:07:40.829 --> 00:07:45.337 of rocks outside the door. And you said, we who are you doing this? 00:07:45.370 --> 00:07:49.017 Actually, I was doing this with the scientists at Brookhaven named Oliver 00:07:49.050 --> 00:07:54.496 Schaefer and Ray Davis. The coincidences that related to this work. Ray 00:07:54.529 --> 00:08:01.197 Davis won the Nobel Prize in physics this year. 00:08:01.230 --> 00:08:05.217 I'm gonna ask you if you would keep your eye contact with her with her 00:08:05.250 --> 00:08:11.546 because it's going to make sure sure. Okay, well that's true anyway. 00:08:11.579 --> 00:08:17.507 Yeah, that's alright. That's alright, yeah. 00:08:17.540 --> 00:08:21.856 Was that your first trip across the country? Have you ever been West? The 00:08:21.889 --> 00:08:24.767 only time I had been the farthest west I'd ever been before. That was 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:29.116 Cincinnati because I went to a meeting of the american ceramic society in 00:08:29.149 --> 00:08:35.337 Cincinnati and of course I crossed the country before freeways so I went 00:08:35.370 --> 00:08:39.506 through all sorts of small places and towns on the way. What did you think 00:08:39.539 --> 00:08:43.707 of that trip? How long did it take your tells? 00:08:43.740 --> 00:08:48.506 Well, I'm pretty, I went from hempstead where I lived to Alfred which is 00:08:48.539 --> 00:08:55.606 in western new york from Alfred too western Ohio. And then I 00:08:55.639 --> 00:09:02.866 went from there to eastern Nebraska and met a young boy in a gas station 00:09:02.899 --> 00:09:06.707 who thought this was pretty neat and he wanted to go to California with me 00:09:06.740 --> 00:09:10.356 and I went from there to Denver stayed two days in Denver then went up 00:09:10.389 --> 00:09:14.356 through Rocky Mountain National Park and from there to Salt Lake City 00:09:14.389 --> 00:09:18.016 because we planned for me to collect rocks around Salt Lake City, stayed 00:09:18.049 --> 00:09:25.006 there two days went down to las Vegas where I am tested the rocks and then 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:30.567 onto Pasadena. The thing that surprised me the most when I got to 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:34.766 California I thought I saw these orange orchards and I thought they'd be 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:40.577 selling cheap orange juice and I never did pass an orange juice and and I 00:09:40.610 --> 00:09:47.437 remember of course parking in at caltech and walking up onto the campus, 00:09:47.470 --> 00:09:53.707 going to Chemistry, Finding a place to live and starting graduate school. 00:09:53.740 --> 00:09:58.096 So how long were you at caltech? four years at Caltech, it's a wonderful 00:09:58.129 --> 00:10:04.217 school Linus Pauling was the department chairman, he Nobel prize winner 00:10:04.250 --> 00:10:08.307 twice. The man who taught freshman biology was it was a Nobel laureate and 00:10:08.340 --> 00:10:15.327 the men that taught freshman physics had won the Nobel prize. So um you 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:21.407 can't get away with much there that professors know what they're doing 00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:24.846 pam. The only thing I think we should put here is what year that was that 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.026 you crossed it? Yeah, 00:10:28.059 --> 00:10:34.307 Well that was 1955 when I went to caltech. 00:10:34.340 --> 00:10:40.896 A lot different as you mentioned. There were no anyways um so the years 00:10:40.929 --> 00:10:43.827 you were at caltech, what did you end up with your master's? Your 00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:48.327 doctorate just went straight through for a doctrine. I did a two part 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:53.307 thesis, one in chemistry on the kinetics of kinetics problem. And then in 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:57.927 the geochemistry minor I worked on the analysis of meteorites. Now the 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:02.957 interesting thing is recently in digging through my papers, not my papers 00:11:02.990 --> 00:11:08.856 but papers, the school at that at that time I was in graduate school a 00:11:08.889 --> 00:11:14.787 shoe began to get interested in meteorites. The Sputnik had happened at 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:20.846 that time and there was a man here named George Boyd and a man who I never 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:24.807 met because he died before I arrived named Crowley who was chairman of 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:31.006 Chemistry. And up in Northern Arizona was a person named dining er who had 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:37.537 made a large meteorite collection and he was thinking of retiring and 00:11:37.570 --> 00:11:41.876 George Boyd got the idea that maybe a issue that was trying to become a 00:11:41.909 --> 00:11:46.937 real university at the time might enter the space it raised by getting 00:11:46.970 --> 00:11:53.636 this meteorite collection. And the note that I found was that okay lets me 00:11:53.669 --> 00:11:58.337 put it this way. It was rather strange that the meteorite collection was 00:11:58.370 --> 00:12:02.736 in the chemistry department because that's where the interest was. And 00:12:02.769 --> 00:12:07.167 they found out that there was a graduate student at caltech in Pasadena 00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:12.616 interested in meteorites and they thought they might get him. I didn't 00:12:12.649 --> 00:12:20.037 know this at the time and that was me. However, when I left caltech I went 00:12:20.070 --> 00:12:27.167 east and I taught two years at Wesleyan university in Connecticut. 00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:33.207 And then I had a phone call from new york and a man named Herbert fails 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.626 who was the vice president of international nickel company said he wanted 00:12:36.659 --> 00:12:44.207 to come see me now, fails was a flyer. And as a flyer he was interested 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:48.427 he'd seen meteor crater in Arizona and he got to know nine in her. So he 00:12:48.460 --> 00:12:54.616 was a friend of 19 years nine Inner introduced him to a. S. U. And they 00:12:54.649 --> 00:12:59.947 sent him to talk to me about coming here for their indirect, why don't 00:12:59.980 --> 00:13:03.707 they just call you up themselves? 00:13:03.740 --> 00:13:06.837 I don't know 00:13:06.870 --> 00:13:10.927 well tell me about that person. Meeting 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:16.236 with fails. The situation at Wesleyan was this that it's a very nice 00:13:16.269 --> 00:13:22.207 school and wealthy students go there and and it had a great history, but 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:26.226 they had, they were going through a phase I would say of thinking they 00:13:26.259 --> 00:13:30.636 were Harvard and they weren't giving many faculty members tenure. So all 00:13:30.669 --> 00:13:34.907 the assistant professors were nervous. Now I'd only been there two years 00:13:34.940 --> 00:13:40.177 But the ones that were there five or 6, we're beginning to get nervous and 00:13:40.210 --> 00:13:43.697 that came down and really then when the opportunity to work with 00:13:43.730 --> 00:13:51.077 meteorites presented itself, I was willing to consider it. Um I asked to 00:13:51.110 --> 00:13:57.197 come here and look the place over which I did and that was rather funny in 00:13:57.230 --> 00:14:02.657 itself. But I was met by George Bateman who is a wonderful person and they 00:14:02.690 --> 00:14:10.187 showed me around and and that I decided to take the job I should say at 00:14:10.220 --> 00:14:14.967 that time. Of course A. S you and other people remember this. It was all 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:21.707 caught up with city streets and we didn't have them all at the power city 00:14:21.740 --> 00:14:27.096 , pretty much ended down with the president's or the old presidents houses 00:14:27.129 --> 00:14:33.047 on College Avenue. But that was a Pigpen at the time. Uh and they hadn't 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:38.587 built down that far yet. So it was pretty, pretty small place. But I had 00:14:38.620 --> 00:14:44.327 the opportunity to work with and and be in charge of which was one of the 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:48.667 larger meteorite collections in the country If my memory serves me right, 00:14:48.700 --> 00:14:55.116 I had about 578 meteorites in it. Now what I mean by that is if you have a 00:14:55.149 --> 00:14:59.856 meteorite from meteor crater Counts as one. Even if you had 10,000 pieces 00:14:59.889 --> 00:15:06.337 , that's only one. So it's five. So we had meteorites from 578 different 00:15:06.370 --> 00:15:10.717 localities in the world that nine Ingrid had put together back up a little 00:15:10.750 --> 00:15:14.657 bit. You said you came out to see a issue and that that was funny and why 00:15:14.690 --> 00:15:19.006 ? Why was that funny? And what year was that? 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:21.606 That was 1961? 00:15:21.639 --> 00:15:27.026 I don't know. I think it was funny. Uh for example, when they took me to 00:15:27.059 --> 00:15:32.917 dinner, they took me to the bowling alley to dinner. It's just a big 00:15:32.950 --> 00:15:38.707 change from what people do now in the recruiting. 00:15:38.740 --> 00:15:43.636 Then when I said I would come, that was when Ji Homer Durham arrived as a 00:15:43.669 --> 00:15:48.636 new president. So they had a in the spring they had a celebration for his 00:15:48.669 --> 00:15:54.837 inauguration. And among the things they did was they had a symposium on 00:15:54.870 --> 00:16:00.756 meteorites and I arranged to get the speakers and which included Gerald 00:16:00.789 --> 00:16:08.789 kuiper from Tucson and and a wonderful man named Al near from 00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:16.567 University of Minnesota and others. Now by that time a s you had gotten 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:20.787 the grant to get the meteorite collection from the NSF. And that's another 00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:25.907 story in a way because what it was was the Smithsonian wanted this very 00:16:25.940 --> 00:16:31.746 badly. But one of the NSF people thought it would be good to not let the 00:16:31.779 --> 00:16:34.996 Smithsonian have a monopoly on the meteorites that there should be 00:16:35.029 --> 00:16:39.057 subjects and balances. And nine anger was interested in having it in 00:16:39.090 --> 00:16:45.967 Arizona. Apparently the uh the other institution in Arizona had insulted 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:52.787 him and he had no interest in it going to Tucson And uh said that it would 00:16:52.820 --> 00:16:57.187 it would cost the NSF a lot more money for that to happen now. Remember 00:16:57.220 --> 00:17:04.907 this is 1960 or so and even then it cost 00:17:04.940 --> 00:17:10.107 Over $300,000 to get this collection from. Which was a lot of money then. 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:17.687 But NSF was willing to put it up. The state of Arizona put in About 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:23.197 $50,000 and Mr Fails who had come to see me, gave a private donation and 00:17:23.230 --> 00:17:27.367 he was a faithful friend even after that every year he'd he'd give us 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:31.806 money to support us. When he retired from new york he moved to phoenix. 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:36.707 And he was a graduate of M. I. T. But always said well if I live in 00:17:36.740 --> 00:17:40.816 Arizona I should support a issue, which I wish we had more people like 00:17:40.849 --> 00:17:45.367 that. He's 19 years. Sounds like quite a character Leininger was quite a 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:50.836 character. He in the 1920s was a biology teacher at McPherson College in 00:17:50.869 --> 00:17:58.869 Kansas and a big fireball went over and he chased the fireball and um he 00:17:59.250 --> 00:18:03.377 did not find the meteorite from the fireball, which is not unusual. But he 00:18:03.410 --> 00:18:08.256 found two other meteorites on farms that had fallen at some undetermined 00:18:08.289 --> 00:18:12.397 time in the past. So when we have meteorites on our collection, some are 00:18:12.430 --> 00:18:16.907 falls which actually have seen the fall or hit a roof or something like 00:18:16.940 --> 00:18:21.736 that. And some are fines that may have fallen a million years ago and just 00:18:21.769 --> 00:18:26.826 been sitting there. I mean, as I mentioned, Uh, at meteor crater, it's uh 00:18:26.859 --> 00:18:31.167 , 50,000 years ago that meteorite landed and you can find meteorites on 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:36.756 the surface uh, from that fall. So they haven't rusted away. Some do and 00:18:36.789 --> 00:18:41.107 some don't. But and he realized there were meteorites out there and he got 00:18:41.140 --> 00:18:47.137 interested and he was what I would say a real nut. And I think great 00:18:47.170 --> 00:18:53.076 sometimes great advances in science and things are made by nuts. And he uh 00:18:53.109 --> 00:18:57.826 started, he quit his job and started chasing meteorites. He wrote very 00:18:57.859 --> 00:19:01.947 well. He wrote books that he's old. He would get meteorites and trade them. 00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:07.147 He would, he would offer to give talks to clubs and schools for pay. And 00:19:07.180 --> 00:19:10.266 then of course the depression came along when you didn't need to make that 00:19:10.299 --> 00:19:14.556 much money to scratch and farmers needed a little money. If they found a 00:19:14.589 --> 00:19:17.586 meteorite, they'd sell it to him in a reasonable amount. And he built this 00:19:17.619 --> 00:19:23.006 collection up to the 500 plus meteorites that I told you about earlier. 00:19:23.039 --> 00:19:28.506 And how did he end up in Arizona? Well, he he went from Kansas to the 00:19:28.539 --> 00:19:33.016 Natural History Museum in Denver then of course the magnet in Arizona for 00:19:33.049 --> 00:19:39.056 meteorites is meteor crater. And so he went down there and set up a museum 00:19:39.089 --> 00:19:44.127 on old Route 66 north of the crater. You can still see the ruins there of 00:19:44.160 --> 00:19:48.976 this building now. It's very interesting I found recently uh from a 00:19:49.009 --> 00:19:53.296 wonderful museum in Winslow. He didn't build that museum. Someone else had 00:19:53.329 --> 00:19:58.937 tried it earlier and it didn't work and went Under and right after 29 but 00:19:58.970 --> 00:20:02.576 he came along and he had his museum up there when they built the 00:20:02.609 --> 00:20:08.736 interstate then they People weren't going by on Route 66 anymore. He moved 00:20:08.769 --> 00:20:13.546 to Sedona and had a museum there. And that's actually where I first saw 00:20:13.579 --> 00:20:18.607 him when I was at caltech I guess in about 1957 I came over here on a trip 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:24.447 to Arizona to see different things. And we went to the meteorite museum in 00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:32.187 Sedona, little knowing that a few years later that would be my uh huh take 00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:37.947 over from him to curate the samples and and come to a, what was it that 00:20:37.980 --> 00:20:43.367 first interested you about meteorites? I think it's I think it's because 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:50.076 of their rocks. And then as I said, which is the way lots of things 00:20:50.109 --> 00:20:55.246 happened. The luck was that that the chemists in the geology department at 00:20:55.279 --> 00:21:01.857 caltech were interested in media rights. And I did a thesis half my thesis 00:21:01.890 --> 00:21:08.357 was on the chemical analysis of stony meteorites. And did you think when 00:21:08.390 --> 00:21:12.046 you did that thesis that meteorites would become your life's work? Not 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.576 really. Although when I went back to Wesley and I finished the papers I 00:21:15.609 --> 00:21:20.207 had on meteorites and I had an interest. But I think one of my problems is 00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:25.207 I have too many interests and and even at A. S. U. Had have been more 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.316 efficient when I got here because I was in charge of the meteorite 00:21:29.349 --> 00:21:33.387 collection and then that was in chemistry. So as a professor of chemistry 00:21:33.420 --> 00:21:38.627 and I volunteered to be a professor of geology department and that's a 00:21:38.660 --> 00:21:42.867 little too thin if you know what I mean. Tell me a little bit about when 00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:48.157 you first came to A. S. U. Where was your first office? What was the issue 00:21:48.190 --> 00:21:52.016 you were telling a little bit about it actually. The department of 00:21:52.049 --> 00:21:56.957 Chemistry had gotten the meteorites. They'd set it up and we they had it 00:21:56.990 --> 00:22:01.937 all packed in a little closet was in some steel bins and numbered and in 00:22:01.970 --> 00:22:09.306 the basement and my office was in the chemistry department up on the 00:22:09.339 --> 00:22:15.917 second floor of the c wing of the physical science building later on. Um I 00:22:15.950 --> 00:22:23.667 moved down onto the first floor and where it is still today. And I have 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:26.607 made a 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:30.597 storage area and museum and things like that for meteorites. So the 00:22:30.630 --> 00:22:37.207 meteorite center expanded significantly. Um 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:41.177 When did it first expand and become. It's sort of open to the public there 00:22:41.210 --> 00:22:45.627 And we've got a little display. Well I guess that I can't tell you the 00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:51.467 exact date but it obviously was not too long after I arrived there. The 00:22:51.500 --> 00:22:56.677 the strength of the meteorite center progressing was really from homer 00:22:56.710 --> 00:23:02.097 Durham. He knew that this was important. He knew this was exciting. And 00:23:02.130 --> 00:23:05.806 you know it's the same thing when you have the president of the university 00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:09.907 really interested, he can put pressure on the Dean and the chairs for 00:23:09.940 --> 00:23:14.407 space and things like that. It's kind of analogous to me at least because 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:19.076 I enjoyed very much being a classroom teacher. If you have a few peppy 00:23:19.109 --> 00:23:22.937 students in the front row that pulls the professor along too. And the same 00:23:22.970 --> 00:23:27.996 thing with Durham's interest in concern 00:23:28.029 --> 00:23:31.407 just before 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:37.076 he left. I guess one of the most exciting things happened in my career at 00:23:37.109 --> 00:23:42.506 issue which many people remember me for. It was then I then I applied to 00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:46.347 do the analysis of the moon rocks when they were brought back and and then 00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:51.786 he left at the same time which was very disappointing to me. But 00:23:51.819 --> 00:23:56.076 that was very nice. I I guess my main contribution to the university is is 00:23:56.109 --> 00:24:00.836 the meteorite collection. We'll talk more about building that up. And but 00:24:00.869 --> 00:24:06.427 many, many people remember me for bringing the moon rock samples here. I 00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:11.076 always like to say when we have visited that a s you got over 200 lunar 00:24:11.109 --> 00:24:17.306 samples before. Okay. Any of the other schools in the state got any? Tell 00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:21.826 me, how did that come about? Do you get involved with the project. But 00:24:21.859 --> 00:24:25.806 what what you do is you 00:24:25.839 --> 00:24:32.246 apply to federal agencies for grants all along. And I had been working on 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:37.996 primarily carbon in meteorites and 00:24:38.029 --> 00:24:44.806 and then when they announced the opportunity to do analyses of 00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:49.647 analysis of the moon rocks then I just followed that up. So essentially we 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:54.367 practiced on the meteorites and in fact we haven't talked about that yet 00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:59.586 at A. S. U. One of the obligations that the NSF put is that we must 00:24:59.619 --> 00:25:04.107 provide samples to all the scientists in the country and around the world 00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:08.256 to keep this as a research collection. So we were sending out lots of 00:25:08.289 --> 00:25:13.117 samples for analysis and most of those analyses at the time where to see 00:25:13.150 --> 00:25:16.286 how the solar system was formed and things like that and understand 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:22.207 meteorites but it also was practicing for the moon moon rock samples. So I 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:29.306 had in fact my first paper from ASU research done here not at caltech or 00:25:29.339 --> 00:25:35.486 or in Connecticut was analysis of carbon and meteorites. And we developed 00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:41.627 a very nice technique that um worked. And my motto is the only good 00:25:41.660 --> 00:25:46.226 analytical chemist is a frightened one. You have to keep trying to make 00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:51.127 sure you're not making a mistake and then going on. So so when I applied 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:55.917 to Nasa then because I've done the carbon analysis and meteorites, they I 00:25:55.950 --> 00:26:01.597 said I would be the one to do it on the moon rocks. Did you apply for that 00:26:01.630 --> 00:26:06.407 before they ever went to the moon? That is correct. So you're just you're 00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:13.276 confident that we're going to get those moon box I guess. So uh the the uh 00:26:13.309 --> 00:26:19.516 I of course remember when they went to the moon and my the place I held my 00:26:19.549 --> 00:26:25.006 breath when it was time for them to take off and come back And they did. 00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:30.746 And did you have any say in what? Oh no no. I think the moon, the first 00:26:30.779 --> 00:26:37.857 two missions 11 and 12 were um political mechanical missions. They landed 00:26:37.890 --> 00:26:42.986 near the equator of the moon where it's easier to land. They picked up 00:26:43.019 --> 00:26:49.417 rocks randomly. Although they had been trained in the geology of what to 00:26:49.450 --> 00:26:54.117 look at. But I think the important thing was to land, pick up something, 00:26:54.150 --> 00:27:00.506 get out of there and they brought in and the first um 00:27:00.539 --> 00:27:05.816 sample that we got here at A. S. U. Was lunar soil. Or properly called 00:27:05.849 --> 00:27:11.006 regular. Where they just took a scoop and scooped up some of the surface 00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:16.816 and brought it to back to the lunar receiving land. How did you get that? 00:27:16.849 --> 00:27:21.117 Did somebody have to go personally deliver it or I went to Houston to pick 00:27:21.150 --> 00:27:27.486 it up. The First analysis I of course remember the date was was in the 00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:32.006 evening of October nine ah 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:34.107 1960 00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:38.607 one. And um 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:45.806 No I'm sorry 69 October 9, 1969. And 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:50.917 we put the sample in our instrument, which requires that the sample be 00:27:50.950 --> 00:27:55.667 burned. And then the carbon turned into carbon dioxide which we detect 00:27:55.700 --> 00:28:00.917 with the gas chromatograph. And the wonderful thing is it was a dial like 00:28:00.950 --> 00:28:05.526 the dial on a clock. And we pushed the buttons and waited and all of a 00:28:05.559 --> 00:28:11.506 sudden that mhm. The clock started moving and we had carbon in the sample 00:28:11.539 --> 00:28:16.786 had about 100 and 20 parts per million carbon in the in the moon rock. 00:28:16.819 --> 00:28:21.506 Then we got the other types of moon rocks 00:28:21.539 --> 00:28:27.417 chips broken off of the larger roxy astronauts brought back and we'd get 00:28:27.450 --> 00:28:32.937 about two or 3 g, which are little pieces about a quarter of an inch in 00:28:32.970 --> 00:28:39.967 size. But we can do our analysis with those, those samples. 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.016 Well, that's kind of an interesting scientific story because in the 00:28:44.049 --> 00:28:52.049 beginning I thought that the carbon, the rocks had very low carbon and the 00:28:52.910 --> 00:28:58.207 soil was very high in carbon. And I thought the carbon might have arrived 00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:03.046 from the carbon rich meteorites which bombarded the moon. And the first 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:08.137 paper in the lunar science conference, that's what we said that the carbon 00:29:08.170 --> 00:29:10.806 came from meteorites 00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:17.947 later on, I discovered that that isn't so that after I had done the carbon 00:29:17.980 --> 00:29:23.347 , I did sulfur and the story was not consistent between them is a very 00:29:23.380 --> 00:29:28.516 good scientific method approach to things. And we discovered that what 00:29:28.549 --> 00:29:32.387 happens any carbon that comes on the meteorites, the solar wind, that high 00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:39.576 energy radiation I talked about from my Brookhaven days wipes 00:29:39.609 --> 00:29:46.546 the carbon off of the surface of the moon. But the radiation from the sun 00:29:46.579 --> 00:29:51.407 is so strong they called solar wind. It is driving 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:56.677 carbon into the surface of the rocks. So the carbon on the moon came from 00:29:56.710 --> 00:30:03.976 the sun. The sulfur on the moon came from a little bit from the sun, but 00:30:04.009 --> 00:30:08.647 there's not that much sulfur, there's much more carbon and hydrogen on the 00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:11.607 moon. And 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:17.786 and so we developed the model which said most of the carbon on the moon 00:30:17.819 --> 00:30:23.316 does come from solar wind particles which are driven out of the surface of 00:30:23.349 --> 00:30:27.746 the sun with such a high velocity they slam into the moon rocks and get 00:30:27.779 --> 00:30:35.197 captured. Um, okay. The person who was supposed to do the carbon analysis 00:30:35.230 --> 00:30:41.147 in what they call the lunar receiving lab in Houston didn't do a good job 00:30:41.180 --> 00:30:46.586 and I gotta hurry up call just before Apollo 12. And these missions went 00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:51.937 on one right after the other and said, can you come now to Houston and set 00:30:51.970 --> 00:30:57.387 up a parallel instrument to do the analysis in Houston. So starting with 00:30:57.420 --> 00:31:03.016 Apollo 12, not only was I on the lunar sample analysis team, I was on what 00:31:03.049 --> 00:31:07.367 they call the lunar sample preliminary examination team in the quarantine 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:12.476 labs in Houston and I was one of the five or six scientists that got the 00:31:12.509 --> 00:31:17.296 moon rocks first and we were in the same place where the astronauts were 00:31:17.329 --> 00:31:22.127 kept to make sure there was no diseases or things brought back from the 00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:27.217 moon. We had to sign a form which said if there's a break, we're in there 00:31:27.250 --> 00:31:32.357 , if it's bad, we may be in there the rest of our life, but it's worth 00:31:32.390 --> 00:31:40.390 doing. That's pretty exciting. And so For Apollo 12 and we were all set up 00:31:40.779 --> 00:31:45.207 for Apollo 13. And then of course it had the accident and didn't go and 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:50.117 Apollo 14 We did this. And by then they knew that there were no bugs on 00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:54.357 the moon so they relaxed it a little bit. We still did the preliminary 00:31:54.390 --> 00:31:59.407 examination, but we didn't have to go through the whole 00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:06.806 quarantine thing. So I had a lot of nice graduate students at the time and 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:12.006 and they worked on meteorites and they worked on the moon rocks and we 00:32:12.039 --> 00:32:18.107 just juggled the teaching and juggled the research all at the same time. 00:32:18.140 --> 00:32:22.387 Must have been a busy time for you. Very busy night Probably had about 14 00:32:22.420 --> 00:32:28.417 people working for me at that time. Tell me a little bit about how did the 00:32:28.450 --> 00:32:33.276 meteorite collection grow from that original donation? The meteorite 00:32:33.309 --> 00:32:39.336 collection grows by having people bring in meteorites and things like that. 00:32:39.369 --> 00:32:44.486 That is very slow. We call the ones that are just ordinary earth rocks 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:50.437 media wrongs, not media rights. And today If we have 1000 rocks brought in. 00:32:50.470 --> 00:32:55.786 We're lucky if we get one media right and we get 999 media wrongs takes a 00:32:55.819 --> 00:33:00.306 lot of time. The biggest 00:33:00.339 --> 00:33:05.377 the thing that I pulled off with respect to the meteorite collection was 00:33:05.410 --> 00:33:10.516 that Amherst college in massachusetts had a A collection of meteorites put 00:33:10.549 --> 00:33:16.717 together way back in the 1840s by a man named see you shepherd. And when 00:33:16.750 --> 00:33:24.207 people began to get interested in meteorites they would approach um 00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.756 the collections and say would you give us a sample and amorous college 00:33:27.789 --> 00:33:32.006 being a liberal arts college, they couldn't handle this. So I made an 00:33:32.039 --> 00:33:36.786 arrangement to buy their collection 00:33:36.819 --> 00:33:42.597 and added to the collection which essentially Um added about 400 or so 00:33:42.630 --> 00:33:46.967 different meteorites. And I think actually more important pristine 00:33:47.000 --> 00:33:52.226 meteorites than the original ones that we had when we did that we became 00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:56.127 the third largest collection of meteorites in the world. Only the british 00:33:56.160 --> 00:34:01.677 museum which plundered their empire. And the Smithsonian or larger and A. 00:34:01.710 --> 00:34:05.927 S. U. Was in third place. Since then they have found meteorites in 00:34:05.960 --> 00:34:11.566 Antarctica and the japanese have been very active at doing that. So 00:34:11.599 --> 00:34:16.767 they've snuck into fourth place. But I could say even today we are one of 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:21.537 the five most important meteorite collections in the world. And certainly 00:34:21.570 --> 00:34:25.537 by far the largest in the university. 00:34:25.570 --> 00:34:30.416 And so we have approximately 1600 different meteorite falls represented in 00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:38.449 our in our collection which is more than double what we started with and 00:34:38.840 --> 00:34:43.106 Meteorite falls. So those are all ones that have fallen. Not no no no some 00:34:43.139 --> 00:34:47.517 are fines and some are false but some but some of the fines are very 00:34:47.550 --> 00:34:51.537 interesting. Meteorites. I mean the ones from media crater are technically 00:34:51.570 --> 00:34:57.236 finds. No one was here 50,000 years ago when it fell. But we have the 00:34:57.269 --> 00:35:02.456 specimens. Some of them are old and rusty and some are some survived 00:35:02.489 --> 00:35:07.787 amazingly well. And I know you have some that you believe are from mars. 00:35:07.820 --> 00:35:10.706 That's correct. We 00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:14.706 actually some of them came with the original nine ng or collection and 00:35:14.739 --> 00:35:21.097 some with Amherst and some from trading later on at the time we got them. 00:35:21.130 --> 00:35:25.967 We didn't know they were from mars And it turns out we have what? six or 7 00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:29.606 meteorites for mars 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:33.856 there are also known meteorites from the moon. Most of them came from 00:35:33.889 --> 00:35:39.506 Antarctica. We don't have any of them except one that was given to me when 00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:45.356 I retired. So I have a moon rock but A. S. U. Doesn't. But if we give 00:35:45.389 --> 00:35:50.546 talks and things. I I loved my personal moon rock around all the moon 00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:54.916 rocks that Nasa sent us. We have to send back. You don't have any of that. 00:35:54.949 --> 00:35:59.506 Don't have any. I don't have any of the ones that were brought back. 00:35:59.539 --> 00:36:04.367 Question when the astronauts were up there. Did they find any meteorites 00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:12.256 ? No when the media right? When a meteorite hits the moon it hits with 00:36:12.289 --> 00:36:17.396 such a high velocity, it vaporizes the meteorite. In other words, it just 00:36:17.429 --> 00:36:25.429 atomize, is it on the earth? Because they come in so fast? Uh 20,000 miles 00:36:26.289 --> 00:36:33.396 an hour and it and it hits on the earth. The atmosphere cushions the 00:36:33.429 --> 00:36:41.429 impact. Um What are you proudest about in your career at issue? 00:36:41.429 --> 00:36:47.856 Well what am I proudest about obviously is building the finest meteorite 00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:55.889 collection in the world. Ah john Fink who's the vice president for 00:36:58.000 --> 00:37:03.497 research always now tells the story that A. S. U. Has a big space program. 00:37:03.530 --> 00:37:08.566 But it all started with the media rights with me coming and I brought Ron 00:37:08.599 --> 00:37:15.477 Greeley and he brought Christiansen. So you know this it worked. What what 00:37:15.510 --> 00:37:22.356 Crowley had in mind of this being the beginning it worked. So I suppose at 00:37:22.389 --> 00:37:27.816 a retirement ceremony, Crow said, remember when all of us in this room are 00:37:27.849 --> 00:37:32.407 long gone, this meteorite collection will be here And we have actually a 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:37.997 piece of a meteorite in the collection that fell in 1492. 00:37:38.030 --> 00:37:44.617 So it has been preserved For over 500 years and this, this is still a 00:37:44.650 --> 00:37:52.650 tremendous obligation ah freya shoe to have assumed. Now way back going 00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:58.166 back in time when when NSF gave us the money, they didn't quite trust the 00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:02.646 issue. So they insisted we have an advisory committee and the advisory 00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:06.407 committee was made up of a Representative of the National Academy of 00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:10.467 Sciences? A representative of the National Science Foundation, a 00:38:10.500 --> 00:38:15.197 representative of the state of Arizona, a representative from the 00:38:15.230 --> 00:38:19.186 university and a representative from the American Museum of Natural 00:38:19.219 --> 00:38:23.486 History and a representative from the Smithsonian. And so for the 1st 10 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.807 or so years these people would meet and I'd tell them what we're doing. 00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:32.537 And eventually I was very proud that al near who probably doesn't mean 00:38:32.570 --> 00:38:36.787 much to people, but in the scientific field, he's a man that invented, 00:38:36.820 --> 00:38:40.396 developed mass spectrometers. And he's the man that separated the uranium 00:38:40.429 --> 00:38:44.557 for the atom bomb was on the committee. He's a wonderful, wonderful man. 00:38:44.590 --> 00:38:48.497 He sent a nice letter. He said, you know when NSF gave a issue this 00:38:48.530 --> 00:38:52.387 collection, they were worried that it would be dissipated and not treated 00:38:52.420 --> 00:38:57.967 correctly. And what it's turned out to be is that that now it is the 00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:01.396 world's leader on how to provide meteorites for research and how to 00:39:01.429 --> 00:39:06.456 provide uh protect them and things like that. So eventually the committee 00:39:06.489 --> 00:39:11.847 um I didn't mean anything. So I should be proudest of the meteorite 00:39:11.880 --> 00:39:17.506 collection. I have a few other funny things I I do like to teach and I and 00:39:17.539 --> 00:39:23.626 uh I guess I should have had 40 graduate students and I should be proud or 00:39:23.659 --> 00:39:27.577 students get graduate degrees under my direction and I should be proud of 00:39:27.610 --> 00:39:33.166 that. Some of them have done very well in the space thing. And then I have 00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:38.537 a funny thing that I can't find the piece of paper, Don dots once sent me 00:39:38.570 --> 00:39:44.816 a copy of a letter sent to the alumni association and and the when I first 00:39:44.849 --> 00:39:49.526 came here, there was a thing called the Academic Year Institute and that 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.717 was again post Sputnik. And the government was putting a lot of money into 00:39:52.750 --> 00:39:59.046 training public school teachers. And he got a letter from a teacher who 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:03.026 said that he was giving some money to the Alumni Foundation and he wanted 00:40:03.059 --> 00:40:08.537 to say he was giving it because of me and he said he had a hard time at a 00:40:08.570 --> 00:40:13.776 S. U. And I was the one who pulled him through and got his masters degree 00:40:13.809 --> 00:40:20.017 and he had just become the first black professional to get a move up in 00:40:20.050 --> 00:40:24.517 the administration in las Vegas. And that of course is what happens as a 00:40:24.550 --> 00:40:28.447 teacher when you teach, you don't know what's gonna happen, but later 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:33.997 sometimes uh you get nice things like that back somewhere in my desk, that 00:40:34.030 --> 00:40:38.756 letter maybe, but I don't know where it's gone, so I'm proud of that type 00:40:38.789 --> 00:40:44.006 of thing. You know, if a teacher can get one student, that's that's a 00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:46.677 major thing. 00:40:46.710 --> 00:40:51.477 Um a couple of things you mentioned in passing dr Bateman, 00:40:51.510 --> 00:40:57.836 there is the building that, well, Dr Bateman was uh I think you've 00:40:57.869 --> 00:41:03.336 interviewed. No, maybe not a mean, um he was the first PhD to come from a 00:41:03.369 --> 00:41:09.106 S. U. He was in charge of physical science, he was the chairman of the 00:41:09.139 --> 00:41:17.097 chemistry department um before Crowley and just was a nice guy and very 00:41:17.130 --> 00:41:22.896 supportive. Uh Pretty much I arrived near the end of his career. The 00:41:22.929 --> 00:41:27.256 department chairman and chemistry when I came and he came the same year I 00:41:27.289 --> 00:41:33.057 did was Leroy hiring and chemistry was kind of the leader in the 00:41:33.090 --> 00:41:40.526 university of turning into a real PhD granting department. So Irene I was 00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:45.566 working on rare earths and things like that and but Bateman was around and 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:51.546 anything I needed I could get support and help from, from Bateman, Arnold 00:41:51.579 --> 00:41:56.026 tilden was the dean of Liberal Arts, who was the first dean. And then as I 00:41:56.059 --> 00:42:03.467 said for me, homer Durham was the president who gave tremendous support. 00:42:03.500 --> 00:42:07.717 Did you consider yourself more of a a chemistry professor of geology 00:42:07.750 --> 00:42:11.936 professor And now they use the term geochemist. Well we taught a course 00:42:11.969 --> 00:42:16.856 called geochemistry and I was the first person who taught it. Um I like 00:42:16.889 --> 00:42:23.327 geology. I would honestly have to say geology is my hobby to take a minor 00:42:23.360 --> 00:42:27.287 in geology at caltech. You get the equivalent 00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:34.267 in courses of a PhD and or master's degree. But technically I'm a chemist. 00:42:34.300 --> 00:42:40.867 And and I just do geology and I taught many many geology courses actually 00:42:40.900 --> 00:42:44.336 when I taught at Wesleyan University before I came here I was in the 00:42:44.369 --> 00:42:48.727 geology department. But although I taught chemistry there too, I'm always 00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:52.327 volunteering to doing things and that was not the most efficient thing to 00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:58.427 do. We need those volunteers things don't get done with that. You were 00:42:58.460 --> 00:43:03.807 also the region's professor in the first group of regions professors and, 00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:09.467 and I had my friends nominate me for that. Especially a very good friend, 00:43:09.500 --> 00:43:13.927 other people that I got along with just fine. And I like very much where 00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:17.606 Gilbert Katie, who was a vice president here at the time and jimmy 00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:21.026 Chrisman and jimmy Chrisman wrote a letter nomination for the region's 00:43:21.059 --> 00:43:28.206 professorship. I was in the 1st 1st group for that ah, which is very nice 00:43:28.239 --> 00:43:31.526 of course to be honored. And what does that mean to be a regents professor 00:43:31.559 --> 00:43:39.186 ? Well, the region's wanted to do things for some professors who have 00:43:39.219 --> 00:43:43.367 distinguished themselves and 00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:49.646 in research or teaching and teaching and service. 00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:53.077 Someone once said I probably am the most balanced and that obviously I've 00:43:53.110 --> 00:43:57.396 done good research and I've always loved teaching. And then when we were 00:43:57.429 --> 00:44:03.006 doing the moon rock analysis, I probably talked at over 400 schools and 00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:08.836 service clubs in Arizona taking my samples with me and things like that. 00:44:08.869 --> 00:44:14.706 So I'm sure there are people that deserve to be regions professors who 00:44:14.739 --> 00:44:22.456 aren't. But that's, that's the way some of these things things happen 00:44:22.489 --> 00:44:27.456 earlier, I had received the 00:44:27.489 --> 00:44:31.856 particularly achievement award from the alumni association. 00:44:31.889 --> 00:44:38.677 I'd much prefer had the faculty teaching award, But never, never won that 00:44:38.710 --> 00:44:41.456 one. 00:44:41.489 --> 00:44:45.267 You mentioned you were also involved in the kind of dispute over sparky as 00:44:45.300 --> 00:44:52.517 well. I've also been chairman of the faculty uh 00:44:52.550 --> 00:45:00.550 Senate and Assembly In 1972 3, I guess. And now they call it the person 00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:05.367 the president of the faculty, but back then it was the chair of the 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:11.407 faculty. And so with respect to internal service in the university, I I 00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:17.956 did that as well as becoming a region's professor. So, um, 00:45:17.989 --> 00:45:23.956 and so I was willing to help the school in any way I can back and I can't 00:45:23.989 --> 00:45:27.927 tell you the exact date, but it's actually in the back of one of these, 00:45:27.960 --> 00:45:33.416 the Saguaro, your books is the story that there were some students back 00:45:33.449 --> 00:45:37.486 when students were feeling their oats a little more wanted to, they 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:42.557 thought sparky was not a good mascot and they wanted to change the mascot. 00:45:42.590 --> 00:45:47.657 So they drew a thing that looks like a norse God or something like that 00:45:47.690 --> 00:45:53.756 and they wanted to substitute this. And and I honestly believe that uh 00:45:53.789 --> 00:46:00.847 harry New Bern, the president was not in favor of this. So eventually they 00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:07.717 put together a committee that I was supposed to look at the problem and I 00:46:07.750 --> 00:46:14.296 was the chair of the committee. And and I came up with the idea that the 00:46:14.329 --> 00:46:19.236 mascot not only belongs to the students who happened to be passing through 00:46:19.269 --> 00:46:25.467 at the time, but but to alumni. So I said if we're going to vote on this, 00:46:25.500 --> 00:46:30.307 then it should include the alumni association as well as the Associated 00:46:30.340 --> 00:46:37.497 Students and of course when that happened overwhelmingly the alumni voted 00:46:37.530 --> 00:46:42.997 to keep sparky. So I I'd kind of forgotten that. But Bernie Jackson, who 00:46:43.030 --> 00:46:47.137 was in the vice president for student affairs office, reminded me of that 00:46:47.170 --> 00:46:51.407 he was on the committee and I didn't remember being so clever, but he he 00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:56.736 thought I was pretty clever pulling pulling this thing off. So thanks to 00:46:56.769 --> 00:47:04.769 you, we still have still have sparky. I'm Mhm. Mhm. Um Let's see anything 00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:08.686 else that is memorable about your career that you wanted to tell us about 00:47:08.719 --> 00:47:10.847 today? 00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:17.626 Well, there's one thing um that was very nice right now, there's a big 00:47:17.659 --> 00:47:23.347 debate on the martian samples that whether there's life on MArs or not. 00:47:23.380 --> 00:47:27.177 And what of my graduate students, Everett Gibson, who graduated with a PhD 00:47:27.210 --> 00:47:33.276 in 1969, is kind of the spokesperson. One of the leaders in the discovery 00:47:33.309 --> 00:47:38.706 of what they think are bacteria in in meteorites that have been knocked 00:47:38.739 --> 00:47:43.986 off of MArs and arrived on the Earth. And whether this is so or not, we 00:47:44.019 --> 00:47:46.856 don't know, but it's good science because we can go to mars and collect 00:47:46.889 --> 00:47:51.727 more rocks and and check this out or drill holes on mars and say, and it's 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.816 a great interest whether there's life on MArs now. Well based on the 00:47:56.849 --> 00:48:01.887 meteorites we have, we can't prove there was life on mars. But yet a lot 00:48:01.920 --> 00:48:06.307 of time and money has been put in to looking at this and they have not 00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:11.747 been able to disprove that these things in the meteorite or are not. So he 00:48:11.780 --> 00:48:17.927 he and I have gotten along very well. He uh over the years and when I had 00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:20.736 my retirement 00:48:20.769 --> 00:48:25.706 party, he, he wanted to come and when he came he brought me a wonderful 00:48:25.739 --> 00:48:33.276 surprise which is a plaque put together by Nasa. Which has the Arizona 00:48:33.309 --> 00:48:41.309 flag that was taken to the moon on Apollo 16 and and brought back. And 00:48:42.179 --> 00:48:45.887 it's kind of nice that 00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:50.787 that the governor didn't get the flag. I got the flag and then it's signed 00:48:50.820 --> 00:48:56.097 by john young who was the astronaut that went to the moon and collected it 00:48:56.130 --> 00:49:03.057 And with a citation saying that they had given me the this and thanks 00:49:03.090 --> 00:49:06.986 because I had trained the astronauts on what to look on the moon and done 00:49:07.019 --> 00:49:12.537 their preliminary examination team and done the moon rock analysis. 00:49:12.570 --> 00:49:18.436 And that was a very nice surprise tribute. Yeah. Yeah. 00:49:18.469 --> 00:49:23.177 Okay. Well in a vault in Nasa, Nasa has got all kinds of vaults. That's 00:49:23.210 --> 00:49:28.717 where they keep their moon rocks and ah astronauts themselves are not 00:49:28.750 --> 00:49:34.436 allowed to put things in their pocket and take them home. 00:49:34.469 --> 00:49:39.037 And do you continue to be involved with some of the space exploration? 00:49:39.070 --> 00:49:45.026 Well, the funny thing is that I have a lot of the interest in the moon has 00:49:45.059 --> 00:49:49.407 waned. But there are those of us who still think about the moon. And I 00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:56.586 even get emails from people like Harrison Schmidt. Jack Schmidt, Who's the 00:49:56.619 --> 00:50:01.026 astronaut who went on Apollo 17 said I have this idea. What do you think 00:50:01.059 --> 00:50:06.626 it's kind of anticlimactic? I've been in in Denver at a meeting and 00:50:06.659 --> 00:50:10.646 standing in the hall talking with moon rocks and all the students go by 00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:18.227 and I don't think one in 1000 would understand that man went to the moon, 00:50:18.260 --> 00:50:24.617 picked up the rocks and he's kept this his interest. He was a us senator 00:50:24.650 --> 00:50:28.936 from New Mexico for six years and then it's now back looking at the moon. 00:50:28.969 --> 00:50:33.197 So I guess when you begin in interested in these things you don't lose 00:50:33.230 --> 00:50:39.217 them. And and I've got lots of things I haven't finished. So I've got a 00:50:39.250 --> 00:50:45.526 lifetime of publication and thinking about the media rights and and things 00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:51.456 like that. Recently I helped media crater in Northern Arizona put up their 00:50:51.489 --> 00:50:56.597 new display and so I'm on the television up there to explaining about 00:50:56.630 --> 00:51:03.506 meteorites and and that's how we get new meteorites. We interest kids and 00:51:03.539 --> 00:51:09.307 they see them fall or find them. And remember that a sus interested in 00:51:09.340 --> 00:51:13.057 these types of things. Are you still helping out at the Media center? Yes 00:51:13.090 --> 00:51:15.927 , I am 00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:19.977 technically I'm retired but I have a buyback to to do that because Lori 00:51:20.010 --> 00:51:24.677 lesson who's now the director of the Meteorite center, she's so busy doing 00:51:24.710 --> 00:51:29.916 her remarks work that and as you can well imagine for for the rest of my 00:51:29.949 --> 00:51:34.327 life, I'm going to get phone calls, what's this and how do we do that? So 00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:37.046 I've been over to the center and it looks like everything's kind of filed 00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:41.336 on three by five cards. Are you looking to like computerized while they're 00:51:41.369 --> 00:51:46.836 doing that now? But you know, we didn't have that much um going on. So we 00:51:46.869 --> 00:51:53.497 could live that way uh with these, it's more important to do the science 00:51:53.530 --> 00:51:58.977 than it is to be sitting there putting information into computers. I might 00:51:59.010 --> 00:52:02.666 , I might mention in the center, we we not only have the meteorites we 00:52:02.699 --> 00:52:09.276 have, which I got from caltech microfilm, for example, of every article 00:52:09.309 --> 00:52:14.517 that they could find On Meteorites published before 1950. 00:52:14.550 --> 00:52:19.497 And, and I think we should transfer that to the university archives and 00:52:19.530 --> 00:52:25.407 let professionals take care of this because that's an invaluable resource 00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:29.447 to, But it's all on microfilm. And if you came in and said, I want to see 00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:34.416 a paper published in 1780 would be a lot of trouble to go through all that 00:52:34.449 --> 00:52:39.617 and find the thing, although it's fairly well classified. 00:52:39.650 --> 00:52:43.517 So we do lots of things. Um, 00:52:43.550 --> 00:52:49.517 and we get a lot of people bringing rocks in still. 00:52:49.550 --> 00:52:54.796 You get more media rights. Oh no, no, no, very rarely do we get a 00:52:54.829 --> 00:53:01.597 meteorite and I guess we don't tell people exactly was, but they wanted to 00:53:01.630 --> 00:53:07.796 be a meteorite. So they try hard to, to make it a meteorite, the analysis 00:53:07.829 --> 00:53:12.017 that they're doing now is much more sophisticated than, well what that's 00:53:12.050 --> 00:53:16.787 why we have to keep going because because advances in meteorites are made 00:53:16.820 --> 00:53:21.436 as they improve instruments and improved the facilities. And so we can 00:53:21.469 --> 00:53:25.217 look at things that we couldn't when I first came here. And that's why 00:53:25.250 --> 00:53:29.336 it's very important not to use them up because you don't want someone 100 00:53:29.369 --> 00:53:33.606 years from now saying why do those people destroy that? That meteorite or 00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:40.416 why didn't they preserve it properly or things like that? Um 00:53:40.449 --> 00:53:47.947 Back In 1991 we when times were tight there was a committee put together 00:53:47.980 --> 00:53:54.686 in liberal arts on how to save money. And and they came up with an idea 00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:58.717 that they we could just 00:53:58.750 --> 00:54:04.416 closed down the meteorite center And 00:54:04.449 --> 00:54:09.967 and that didn't happen of course. But I got a nice letter from a person. I 00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:13.037 don't remember whether it was in history or political science. Someone I'd 00:54:13.070 --> 00:54:18.467 never met and said to the Dean, are you crazy that it was this was not the 00:54:18.500 --> 00:54:23.736 Dean's idea. Uh I just got back from china and the only thing they know in 00:54:23.769 --> 00:54:30.947 china about a S. U. Is the meteorite collection. See so it's following 00:54:30.980 --> 00:54:36.166 crows idea of having good things. It's one of the by hook or by Crook. I 00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:41.606 built up this wonderful collection that's known all over the world. It's 00:54:41.639 --> 00:54:44.916 ironic. It seems to be better known around the world than it is right here. 00:54:44.949 --> 00:54:48.617 Maybe. You know if you ask students on the malware is the meteorites 00:54:48.650 --> 00:54:52.427 they'll say what? 00:54:52.460 --> 00:54:57.046 It's not a very impressive center. I must say it's pretty unassuming. You 00:54:57.079 --> 00:55:02.307 mean you don't big fancy center? 00:55:02.340 --> 00:55:07.477 Well at times they talk about new buildings and new exhibits but but it is 00:55:07.510 --> 00:55:12.727 a research center not a it's like Carl Hayden used to say there's show 00:55:12.760 --> 00:55:18.840 horses and workhorses and I think the media rights center is a workhorse. 00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:23.947 It's more important to get good data from them and do good research. Do 00:55:23.980 --> 00:55:29.006 people come here they're expecting it to be much more impressive. 00:55:29.039 --> 00:55:32.617 I think it is impressive to people that are really interested in 00:55:32.650 --> 00:55:39.146 meteorites ah That that only read about or see tiny pieces of things and 00:55:39.179 --> 00:55:44.657 when they can see the bigger stuff um It impresses them. So you don't 00:55:44.690 --> 00:55:49.977 think it needs a big fancy building. 00:55:50.010 --> 00:55:53.606 I think if we had money for a big fancy building we put into research 00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:59.907 facilities although they get Out of date in five or 10 years to. But I I 00:55:59.940 --> 00:56:05.626 think the important thing is Is the preservation of the meteorites and the 00:56:05.659 --> 00:56:10.916 understanding that this is not a 10 year or 50 or 100 year thing this goes 00:56:10.949 --> 00:56:15.396 on and on and on. And 00:56:15.429 --> 00:56:22.327 there is a funny thing in the bottom of the NSF agreement with A. S. U. 00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:27.117 Which says that that if a s you no longer is interested in taking care of 00:56:27.150 --> 00:56:33.736 the media rights they shall be transferred at no cost to them to one of 00:56:33.769 --> 00:56:37.827 the other Arizona institutions. So I'm sure a issue is not particularly 00:56:37.860 --> 00:56:42.236 interested in sending the meteorites to Tucson. Although they might like 00:56:42.269 --> 00:56:46.867 to get them. So we couldn't just sell them. We cannot tell them. Do you 00:56:46.900 --> 00:56:50.387 have any idea what the value of that 00:56:50.420 --> 00:56:57.197 millions and millions? It's it's difficult. You know it's kind of a silly 00:56:57.230 --> 00:57:00.566 thing to think about because there are there's an open market in 00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:02.796 meteorites 00:57:02.829 --> 00:57:06.117 but our collection would be worth so much that no one could afford to buy 00:57:06.150 --> 00:57:10.497 it. So um you're not allowed to sell it. We're not allowed to sell it 00:57:10.530 --> 00:57:16.597 anyway. Yeah that's probably good the way somebody would want to sell it 00:57:16.630 --> 00:57:21.276 well along those same lines though. What about the commercial thing? 00:57:21.309 --> 00:57:27.126 Because in Tucson there is a huge gym show and they sell meteorites. Can 00:57:27.159 --> 00:57:30.677 you tell us a little bit about that? And if that is a problem? Well the 00:57:30.710 --> 00:57:36.017 problem the I guess the the good news is that people are interested in 00:57:36.050 --> 00:57:40.717 meteorites and out looking for them And right now they're finding them all 00:57:40.750 --> 00:57:44.477 the media rights from Antarctica go to the Smithsonian that the United 00:57:44.510 --> 00:57:48.106 States collects but they are finding meteorites in North africa in the 00:57:48.139 --> 00:57:53.867 deserts and private dealers get these meteorites. The thing that's good is 00:57:53.900 --> 00:57:56.747 they're finding some and they find some from the moon and they find some 00:57:56.780 --> 00:58:01.686 from mars and they find other interesting meteorites. The bad thing is 00:58:01.719 --> 00:58:08.086 that they run prices up so high that scientific museums can't afford them. 00:58:08.119 --> 00:58:13.347 Okay down the road. I think what will happen if very wealthy collectors 00:58:13.380 --> 00:58:18.776 buy collections of meteorites they'll donate them to the university. But 00:58:18.809 --> 00:58:22.697 these dealers also cut them up and slice them up so they're not so they're 00:58:22.730 --> 00:58:29.066 not treating them uh quite right with respect to trace element chemistry 00:58:29.099 --> 00:58:33.396 and stuff like that. See what we what we dream about is getting a nice 00:58:33.429 --> 00:58:39.287 fresh meteorite, picking it up, putting it in the can, putting dry 00:58:39.320 --> 00:58:44.486 nitrogen in it and prevent it from degrading or something like that. But 00:58:44.519 --> 00:58:47.787 and they're not doing that because they make their living selling media 00:58:47.820 --> 00:58:54.717 rights. And and of course that hurts us a little bit when people um bring 00:58:54.750 --> 00:58:57.557 meteorites in that are really meteorites because they can go on the 00:58:57.590 --> 00:59:00.626 internet and they said well these things are worth this much money. And my 00:59:00.659 --> 00:59:03.477 attitude is well that's what that's what they're asking whether they're 00:59:03.510 --> 00:59:09.267 getting it is another question. I mean it may be so I think right now in 00:59:09.300 --> 00:59:13.597 history we have a pulse in in the prices being up and people being 00:59:13.630 --> 00:59:19.947 interested. But but It won't last forever. And eventually they'll they'll 00:59:19.980 --> 00:59:24.927 make their way back to collection just like the 1490-1 that I have In our 00:59:24.960 --> 00:59:29.506 collection then those early ones from the early 1800s. See you shepherd 00:59:29.539 --> 00:59:36.590 collected you know. Ah We have to dance with the devil to survive I guess. 00:59:37.219 --> 00:59:39.219 Let's see. I was gonna ask you why would get this? And we'll go back to 00:59:40.159 --> 00:59:43.936 some of the things you just mentioned about how do you see a s you change 00:59:43.969 --> 00:59:49.646 over the years that you've been? Well of course the mechanical change is 00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:55.217 that again my friend Harold Homer Durham did away with the streets and 00:59:55.250 --> 01:00:00.477 turned things into a mall and I think he had a tremendous sense of what a 01:00:00.510 --> 01:00:05.276 university should look like and 01:00:05.309 --> 01:00:10.816 and made made us a really nice campus, not just another urban university 01:00:10.849 --> 01:00:16.157 or city university chopped up with with streets and then of course we've 01:00:16.190 --> 01:00:21.227 seen all the buildings built and I was on the library committee when they 01:00:21.260 --> 01:00:24.517 designed the new science library which is a pretty building. And 01:00:24.550 --> 01:00:28.637 personally I think that if you have pretty facilities it makes the 01:00:28.670 --> 01:00:34.977 students like them better and be more interested in studying you know. Um 01:00:35.010 --> 01:00:40.956 So it's just physical growth in in in that sense when I first came the 01:00:40.989 --> 01:00:46.356 faculty knew each other now maybe it's too big. Maybe the times have 01:00:46.389 --> 01:00:52.206 changed the way I used to put it bypassed ned walk or frank kush on the on 01:00:52.239 --> 01:00:56.836 the mall. They'll say hello to me. I suspect football coaches have come 01:00:56.869 --> 01:01:00.977 and gone. Who had no idea who I am. 01:01:01.010 --> 01:01:03.646 Did you ever think when you came here that it would get to be this big 01:01:03.679 --> 01:01:07.836 university? I don't think we necessary I had plenty to do. I wasn't 01:01:07.869 --> 01:01:13.217 thinking of things like that. I just like to dig in and help us. You the 01:01:13.250 --> 01:01:16.827 best I can tell us about your mentioning some of the things that you did 01:01:16.860 --> 01:01:22.296 here to help. Well I would think a kind of a cute one is when I was 01:01:22.329 --> 01:01:28.736 president of the faculty ah they when they built the current state 01:01:28.769 --> 01:01:35.776 retirement system and the standard retirement option for academic people 01:01:35.809 --> 01:01:43.577 can be Tia. When I came from Wesley and I had been on Tia crept and so I 01:01:43.610 --> 01:01:51.610 went down as president of faculty to lobby the senate and and now we have 01:01:51.659 --> 01:01:55.816 a flashback when I first came here there was a fact assistant professor in 01:01:55.849 --> 01:02:00.117 chemistry named Clarence Carpenter and his father was president of the 01:02:00.150 --> 01:02:08.150 state senate and he told me that if any time I needed a favor talk to 01:02:08.150 --> 01:02:13.427 Harold guess who was the powerful senator from Yuma and say Carpe 01:02:13.460 --> 01:02:18.097 Carpenter sent me And so when I went down there they held the hearing and 01:02:18.130 --> 01:02:23.177 gifts said oh you know we worked all this out about the retirement which 01:02:23.210 --> 01:02:28.307 by the way I kept and stayed on and now you people meaning the university 01:02:28.340 --> 01:02:33.166 wants something else and then he called the recess and I went up to him at 01:02:33.199 --> 01:02:38.117 the recess and I said well Carpe Carpenter told me if I ever needed a 01:02:38.150 --> 01:02:43.436 favor just to say it to you. He called the committee back into order and 01:02:43.469 --> 01:02:48.066 said I've thought it over and it sounds okay to me. 01:02:48.099 --> 01:02:54.447 That's how politics, that's how politics used to work. So that you ask. 01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:59.447 Another thing I like the student paper I I like getting a chance to work 01:02:59.480 --> 01:03:06.327 on the moon rocks. And then recently I got noticed that they named an 01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:12.727 asteroid after me. So for me it was rather nice because the name more was 01:03:12.760 --> 01:03:16.986 taken when an asteroid is found to give it a number. So mine originally 01:03:17.019 --> 01:03:24.336 was 1982 d. Q. found in 1982. And then after they spotted three times then 01:03:24.369 --> 01:03:29.177 they give it a number 5046 and then they can give it a name. So I got a 01:03:29.210 --> 01:03:36.166 letter email saying that they had named 5046 Carlton More all run together 01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:39.637 because more was taken. So I get the whole thing. The only thing I was 01:03:39.670 --> 01:03:43.566 worried about is that if my grandchildren tell their teachers that my 01:03:43.599 --> 01:03:49.206 grandfather has an asteroid named after him, they'll probably say come on 01:03:49.239 --> 01:03:57.239 go sit in the corner. But But last week which is in October uh 2003 I went 01:03:58.530 --> 01:04:02.717 back to Alfred where I'd gone to school and they have a very nice um 01:04:02.750 --> 01:04:08.236 astronomical observatory there. Uh And they actually I didn't realize they 01:04:08.269 --> 01:04:12.506 could do this. He can put his telescope right on me because I happened to 01:04:12.539 --> 01:04:16.117 be in the sky at that time. Not on the other side of the earth or 01:04:16.150 --> 01:04:20.086 something. And of course all I look like is a little speck of light but 01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:25.896 there I am there I am going around the sun up there. Hopefully you'll keep 01:04:25.929 --> 01:04:30.657 going around the sun and not crashing anything become a meteorite. 01:04:30.690 --> 01:04:35.847 Well, I just hope I'm not the one that like the movies that crashes into 01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:38.256 the earth. 01:04:38.289 --> 01:04:44.227 Would be ironic. You mentioned you wrote a book with, Yes, I, my student 01:04:44.260 --> 01:04:48.586 Everett Gibson way back in the beginning organized the trip down through 01:04:48.619 --> 01:04:53.307 the Grand Canyon by boat and, and we think we're fairly close to being in 01:04:53.340 --> 01:04:59.026 the 1st 1000 people to go through the Grand Canyon. And then when Burt 01:04:59.059 --> 01:05:03.717 Fireman here was a good friend of Barry's when Barry wanted to write his 01:05:03.750 --> 01:05:11.750 book on the Grand Canyon and the pictures. Then he asked me to write 01:05:12.869 --> 01:05:18.256 part of the book on the geology of the Grand Canyon. So there's a Barry 01:05:18.289 --> 01:05:22.626 Goldwater is the prime author on his trip through the Grand Canyon. And 01:05:22.659 --> 01:05:27.606 then I have the story and they're on the geology and of anthropologist 01:05:27.639 --> 01:05:31.336 named Howry I think was at Prescott College at the time, wrote one on the 01:05:31.369 --> 01:05:36.396 , on the anthropology of the Grand Canyon. So that's nice too. So did you 01:05:36.429 --> 01:05:42.177 get to know Barry working on the book. Well, yeah. And then uh um, I have 01:05:42.210 --> 01:05:46.997 an interesting story then when Nasa was beginning not to be funded, They 01:05:47.030 --> 01:05:51.497 wrote to us and said, well, talk to your congressman and senators. I said 01:05:51.530 --> 01:05:55.477 to barry that the scientists are worried that we're not getting enough 01:05:55.510 --> 01:05:59.666 support for Nasa. And he said, well, don't talk to me. He said, I vote yes 01:05:59.699 --> 01:06:03.776 every time he said talk to the, those other guys because there's no 01:06:03.809 --> 01:06:08.816 problem with me. So that's what I reported back and Barry said there's no 01:06:08.849 --> 01:06:11.046 problem. 01:06:11.079 --> 01:06:15.956 What was he like? Well, I, I like him because he's just blunt and honest 01:06:15.989 --> 01:06:19.347 like that. He just 01:06:19.380 --> 01:06:22.847 did what he wanted. 01:06:22.880 --> 01:06:27.296 And of course he loved Arizona and he liked the Grand Canyon and things 01:06:27.329 --> 01:06:30.867 like that. What was it like going down the Grand Canyon when you went, did 01:06:30.900 --> 01:06:34.856 you have the big pontoon boats? We had pontoon boats at the time, but 01:06:34.889 --> 01:06:38.836 there were so many rules. So for example, there was a lot of driftwood and 01:06:38.869 --> 01:06:45.546 they had built fires on the beaches. They don't do that anymore. And um, 01:06:45.579 --> 01:06:49.876 all the rules haven't appeared yet. What about as a geologist? Oh, it's a 01:06:49.909 --> 01:06:55.597 wonderful thing to see. Of course. And it's probably better for geologists 01:06:55.630 --> 01:07:01.827 going down because you know what you're seeing as opposed to someone just 01:07:01.860 --> 01:07:04.887 taking a trip. I've always thought if you do a thing like that, you have 01:07:04.920 --> 01:07:08.146 to read about it and understand it then you have to do it. And then you've 01:07:08.179 --> 01:07:14.537 got to go back and read about it again. I've been down twice. So I ah that 01:07:14.570 --> 01:07:18.447 helps too because then you know what's coming around the bend that you 01:07:18.480 --> 01:07:22.347 didn't look fast enough last time and things like that. I think having you 01:07:22.380 --> 01:07:25.606 on the trip would be interesting to. Well actually the second time I went 01:07:25.639 --> 01:07:29.157 down I was with the whole group from the U. S. Geological Survey in 01:07:29.190 --> 01:07:35.546 Flagstaff. So that was it was a busman's holiday. 01:07:35.579 --> 01:07:39.486 Anything else that we didn't ask you about that? We should have. No I 01:07:39.519 --> 01:07:44.287 think I think my my big contribution to A. S. U. Has to be the meteorite 01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:50.646 collection. But I've tried hard over my time here to be a good citizen and 01:07:50.679 --> 01:07:53.079 teach well.