to start off, I'll just introduce myself. I'm pam Stevenson and we are
here at the um A A. S. U. Visitors information center during an oral
history interview for the living history video project for Arizona State
University retirees Association. It's Thursday,
23, 2003. And I'll let you introduce yourself and give us your full name.
And what was your title when you retired from the issue? My name is Alan
Matheson and I retired as a professor of law at the College of Law and
then we'll go back and get a little background. Tell me about when you
were born and where you were born. I was born a long time ago in southern
Utah and I was raised in Salt Lake city Utah attended the schools there
and then went on to the University of Utah where I received all three of
my degrees including law school?
No, no, I was born in 1932 in the the beginning of the Great Depression.
And when I was born, my dad went to collect the money he had saved to pay
for my delivery and the bank had failed. So I arrived without financial
assistance with the dead already. With the dead already? Um Well, tell me
about, were you a good student? I think so. I like to think so.
Um when you went to college, did you know then you wanted to go into law?
What did you make that decision? I didn't at first my father was a lawyer
and though he was very successful, he tried to discourage me from getting
into it. He thought that I, my interests and talents were better suited
elsewhere and he didn't live long enough to know that I was in the
teaching of law, which would have thrilled him. What did he think you
should do? I'm not sure that he was specifying anything in particular, but
I think in his heart, he hoped that I would be a university professor. I
used to do both. Um tell me about what prompted you to come down from Utah
come down to Arizona. And the issue, I was prompted by a phone call from
President Homer Durham, who had been a teacher of mine at the university
of Utah many years before and he asked me to come down and meet with him
to consider the possibility of having a position as his legal advisor and
also a position at the new law school which was just being founded. What
were you doing at the time? I was assistant to the President at Utah State
University. So that would have been a logical move to, you're already in
the university system. Yes, yes, it was. So what made you decide to go
ahead move? I was pleased that the idea of having more involvement with
the law and with legal issues. And this gave me that, I was also very
intrigued with the thought of participating in the new venture, the new
law school, which was just starting from scratch. And I also had enormous
respect for homer Durham and thought that working with him would be a
wonderful experience as it was. And what year was that? I came in mid year
, I came in December of 1967. I was hired before but my employer would not
release me until december.
It was a good time. However, that year in 1967 such a heavy snowfall that
we couldn't drive down 91 and come through Flagstaff. We had to go by way
of las Vegas.
What was the issue like in 1967? Far different institutions smaller, it
was feeling its way it's graduate program was started and under but it had
not achieved great strength and recognition. It was smaller in the sense
that one could know people throughout the campus. Uh huh. Had a nice,
comfortable homey family feeling. Um It was under the shadow then of the
University of Arizona.
It was kind of a step child to the Arizona legislature at the time because
the budget was in the hands of a professor from the University of Arizona
who doled out the money and in the doling a issue came up short and it
took many, many years for it to achieve some sort of equity in that regard.
So what was your first job of the first title when you, I came as the
assistant dean at the College of Law and as the legal advisor to President
Durham. However,
that title of legal advisor was not published and announced because at the
time legal opinions for the university and for the board of regions had to
go through the Arizona state Attorney General's office. And so I was an
unofficial legal advisor. And how big was the College of Law? Was it
actually an official college of Law at that time we, the College of Law
had been organized and I came During the first semester. The doors of the
college were opened in the fall of 1967 and I arrived in december. So it
was a class of very courageous young people Who allied themselves with an
unknown quantity of brand new law school. There were approximately 120 of
them. Why do they actually want to have a law school?
I'm not certain, but I'm assuming that it was because it added some
stature. Uh, and I am told perhaps this is anecdotal that the law school
is here as a booby prize because just before I came there was a rivalry
with respect to the location of the medical school and the University of
Arizona had the health services curriculum and phoenix had the hospital
facilities and there was a tussle between the cities as to where the
medical school would go. But the board of Regents moved it to Arizona and
the story is that homer Durham in his briefcase to that meeting brought
out or had in his briefcase a plan for law school brought it out and
presented it. And after the regions have decided on the medical school at
Tucson, they were more receptive to the request for law school. What does
it take to start a law school? It takes uh,
talented people, it takes a lot of patients and it takes financial
assistance.
And the Homer Durham was instrumental in starting a solid, successful law
school by recruiting as the founding dean. Willard Pedrick from
Northwestern Law School and he was the first appointee and he said the
most successful year of his deanship was that first year because he had no
faculty, no students and no alumni to respond to. But pad recruited uh,
Amazingly one of the strongest law faculties in the country. Ed Clary from
Illinois, Richard Heflin from Wisconsin. Harold havoc, hurst from
Northwestern William Canby, who is now the 9th circuit federal judge as
our young Higher and so on that. That ensured that the college would
succeed because of the quality and the experience and the respect for
those appointees.
And what was your role then? What did you actually do? My role as
assistant dean was basically to help Pedrick with matters such as
scheduling, assigning classes of kind of the academic support, assigning
classes to professors, meeting with students, helping the students
organize into groups, that kind of thing handling the budget, handling
administrative details to free the dean too, raise money to speak and to
promote the law school and where was the law school? The law school
started in the Old Matthews Library, which is on the mall opposite the
liberal arts building. It's now the museum location and the law school was
given a couple of places, one classroom and a few offices in that building.
And when I came I was housed in an office interestingly that it had no no
ceiling and it it was adjacent to the classroom where held Harold have
accursed was teaching contracts. This distinguished gentleman who had been
deemed at Northwestern and on the other side of my office was a philosophy
class taught by Morris Starsky, who was a very controversial figure in
Arizona State's history. So I had this very liberal education because I
had the dignified dean teaching contracts on one side with no barrier and
or Starsky ranting on the other side. So it was an interesting place. We
were at the Matthews Library there from september until february and after
the university appointed Pedrick as Dean, it moved immediately to provide
a new building for the law school at its present site And that building
was ready in and dedicated in February of 1968. And so my very first
assignment as assistant team was to help organize the details of that
dedication. We had a special conference at the law school banquets, Other
events to hail the opening of the school was very quick well Pedrick was
appointed in 1966,
so at that time, the school had committed some resources at the time?
There was a higher education act and some federal money came as matching.
But it moved with alacrity and the building was amazingly inexpensive.
Could not have been built for for that price at other times.
Mhm. Did you think at the time that you came here, were you planning to
stay and make your career? I did not have that thought. As I came, I
thought it would be a very interesting experience. But quite frankly, I
didn't expect to remain in in Arizona for the rest of my life. But I have
done so what what what what brought that about? How did your career
progress from that first, from the first year it's been at the law school
except for one year, I progressed from the assistant dean, an assistant
professor, to associate dean and professor. And then I became acting dean
at a time when our second dean, Ernest Gellhorn left suddenly after two
years here accepted the deanship at another place and I was appointed as
acting dean. And then after a search was conducted, I was appointed as the
regular dean and served For five years in that capacity 1979
to 1984.
And then I stepped back to being a full time teacher.
And after that I was called back to be interim dean on four occasions. So
I've been for the most part teaching lit la classes and very happily
teaching them and also serving in temporary times as the law school
administrators to stand by Dean standby Dean, I suppose. Why is that
fortuitous events?
A new dean was appointed at one time and could not come until february. So
there was a semester and no one was available. So they asked me to stand
in for the semester. And then when our most recent dean was appointed,
Patricia White, um, there was a gap because our former dean Richard morgan
, had suddenly accepted a position in Nevada to start a new law school
there. And
for some reason the university turned to me and I served as dean for a
year and a half an interim dean. Uh huh. Patricia White was unable to come
at the first of the year. She came in january And she has served for
nearly five years and you served for five years. Did you enjoy being dean
or why did you step down for me? I enjoyed it very much. For the most part
, there's something appealing about leading a group of bright able people
and hoping that one might have some positive impact upon an enterprise for
which one has great respect and affection. Uh, my feeling was that five
years was a sufficient time. There is a time to go into a deanship at a
time to come out and I felt the time had arrived that I had done what I
thought I could and I thought it was time for a new person to come into
the office.
Are there any highlights as you think back over your career? That
particularly memorable events?
I think the dedication of the law school for one
that was it the Gammage Auditorium and we had invited the leaders of the
state and the legal profession and others. And the main speaker was then
Chief Justice Earl Warren of the United States Supreme Court because he
was there and because he was controversial, I remember that I received
threatening phone calls from the citizens of Arizona who were upset
because we were tainting the school by having Earl Warren appear and the
governor of the state of Arizona refused to come and sit on the same stage
with the Chief justice
Jack Williams while the Chief justice was giving his dedic a torrey speech.
Vans moved along Apache boulevard and around two mil with big signs on
impeach Earl Warren. But this wonderful gentleman stood up as though he
were in his own yard or home, spoke beautifully and there was a the
auditorium was filled to capacity and gave him a rounding standing ovation
around standing ovation. So that was and then we had the longest academic
procession ever I think because the line of robed representatives moved
from Gammage Auditorium all the way over to the new law school on the then
east side of the campus and then there was a delicate ori ceremony that
was very interesting and we had former Dean of Harvard Law School Erwin
Griswold was the speaker and his pet was introducing him he said and the
speaker is Dean Ernest Griswold of Harvard and then he was solicitor
general of the United States So that he is the recipient of 31 honorary
degrees and he bent over and said 32.
The dedication was fine.
In 1977 the school had been in being very short time. There was a ranking
of law schools by U. C. L. A. On various bases and that study included a
issue. This brand new law school among the top 20 law schools in the
country and the most innovative law school in the country. That was that
was exciting great satisfaction in being a part of the new law school, the
Camelot period with these wonderful persons talented gentlemen, there were
no women at the time on the faculty. But it was a wonderful period in
terms of establishing policy for the law school, watching it grow,
responding to that growth, interacting with members of the legal
profession and state officials and and watching it having
accreditation come as early as that was possible from the American Bar
Association. Just watching it grow and develop and become a mainstream
respected law school. When did you get the accreditation accreditation
came with? As the first class was graduating. So they were able to
graduate from accredited law school by the american Bar association which
allowed them to take the bar exam in Arizona and throughout the country.
If that accreditation had not come when it did, then they would not have
been able to sit for those exams. I imagine that also unable to get a
better caliber of students. Oh yes. Oh yes, potential lawyers are always
thinking about where their degree is going to be from. That's true, the
law school
served a need because even though there was a law school in Tucson for
many years at the University of Arizona, there were some students who
could not leave town, they were tied here by spouses or work or whatever.
And in those first classes we had some outstanding people, more mature
students who had this opportunity to go to law study and took advantage of
it. It was a very interesting time. Can you think of any particular
students that stand out in your mind? Oh, there are lots of students who
stand out, you're putting me on the spot, included in that first class was
Michael Gallagher, who is the uh senior partner and founder of the major
firm in the, in the city of Gallagher and Kennedy, uh Sarah Grant who
became a judge on the Court of Appeals. Uh and a few classes later, Ruth
McGregor who is now a justice on the Arizona Supreme Court. Three of the
five justices on the Supreme Court are graduates of our law school,
including ruth Rebecca birch from a later class. Uh huh and the most
recent appointee,
but we're very proud of those, those people who is the most recent
deployment. Uh and I have a memory lapse here. It's no, Andy Hurwitz was
was a teacher at the school part time teacher but was never a full time
member of the faculty. I will, I will remember the name and he was not too
long. No. And he is the more recent actually. He is the most recent, the
one before that fine man. And I I'm embarrassed but I don't remember this
time. It will come to you. Um you mentioned that the original faculty was
all men. What about the students?
Initially a few women In the entering class of 120 some I think we had six
women and in subsequent years, I think it went down to three at one time.
Ah And now there are times when the class has a majority of women. And how
about the faculty? The faculty has several women, fortunately. Our, our
dean is a woman. Our librarian as a woman and the directors of our legal
clinic is a woman. The director of our indian law program is a woman and
we're delighted to have that diversity and talent and that's been a major
change in the legal profession. It has and in law schools,
I suggest that perhaps now a majority of students attending law schools.
Our female at the present time. Did you ever expect that to happen? I
hoped it would as we started, it was hard to see that that was the way it
was going to go at the time. Not too many women, young women had thought
of themselves as lawyers or had thought of pursuing illegal education.
And so I think it came as women realized that their opportunities were
unlimited and we're encouraged to go to a professional schools and take
advantage of the opportunities available to
Okay,
Mike Ryan is the other graduate fine fine man who has been Superior Court
judge in the Court of Appeals judge and is on the Arizona Supreme Court.
Let's see. Talk to cover a lot of these questions. Um, what are you
proudest of of your career here at the issue
teaching and at times teaching very effectively. I think in terms of
evaluations that's been probably the single most a significant part of my
being here. Uh huh serving as Dean.
That meant a great deal to me and it gave me an opportunity to lead this
enterprise. Something like I had not thought of it anytime before it
happened. And then I had an interesting change of pace one year, I was
president of the faculty Senate and housed another office building Dixie
damage hall. And and have the experience of leading the Senate at that
time. That was also an interesting and important aspect of my career here.
That was very different, very different. Absolutely, several of the
people we've interviewed have done that. So, um tell me about teaching.
What, what did you teach and I'm still teaching by the way. Uh I have
taught constitutional law, administrative law, education law and community
property. Uh My favorite is constitutional law. I can't imagine a subject
that would be more interesting and challenging than that particular
subject. I just revel in teaching uh individual rights, constitutionally
protected rights, constitutionally protected rights. That has been a dream
so far as teaching is concerned, it's easy to relate that to students. The
students respond positively. It is timely because it's changing, its
interesting to watch the interplay of the justices and the impact of
having a new justice appointed and politics behind appointments and so on.
It's just a fascinating area and that has been a standout in my, in my
teaching career. And you say you're still teaching you, obviously you
don't have to do that. I I teach part time, I do not play golf or have
other activities attracting me to spend time away from the school.
Teaching is my advocation as well as my location. So I teach half time and
enjoy doing that.
You served under quite a few of the president's going to talk about a
little bit about some of them and surely homer Durham had been my teacher
and mentor earlier on and I I believe that he was responsible for
basically the graduate program at Arizona State University Moving it from
a rather modest institution towards becoming a mature, great institution.
I think he deserves more credit than he has received past an amazing
person, very talented person. He was succeeded for just two years by Harry
New Bern. I had a wonderful relationship with him, had a great deal of
respect for him. He had been dean of the College of Education and then
filled in for the two years. And I believe john Schwab to was the
president,
I believe he was brought in by the regions to kind of quell student unrest
at least. That's the, that's the view of many on the faculty. Uh, john was
a fine person and it was he who appointed me as dean. So I, oh him that
that privilege. He was succeeded by Russ nelson, very effective president
, worked well with him, served on in many capacities. He kept appointing
me as chair of searches for various university officers and served well
with him and then Laddie Corps became president and I have
unbridled admiration for Laddie core. He was the spokesperson and very
effective spokesperson for higher education in the state. He supported
faculty governance as I think no other president among those I have named.
He had an open door, bright, good sense of humor, very effective in
carrying the university's message And I think in his 11 years moved the
school another stage upward, Each of the president's made his contribution.
But in those 11 years, letty core remade issue and made it attractive to
the present president, Michael Crump
among those years. It's quite a span of time that you've been here. Are
there any particularly troubled times that comes to mind
the troubled times that come to mind deal with budgets strangely enough or
perhaps not so strangely as I was dean, we would the university would
receive its appropriations from the legislature. The university in turn
would give it allotment to the law school. And then at mid year when
finances in the states were deteriorating, we would be asked to make
midyear cuts after we had made our plans, hired our people and it was very
painful
and that occurred. I think every year I was dean, I would never have the
luxury of having the allotment, the budget maintained throughout the year
so that we could do what we wanted to do. I think that probably was the
whole point.
Were you here during some of the war protests, I was here. The war
protests at issue were rather subdued. I think there was
a fire bomb thrown on a roof. And there was a great deal of publicity
about MR Starsky. Professor Starsky attending a war protest meeting in
Tucson that ultimately led to his dismissal by the board of regions over
the recommendation of the faculty and the President of University and the
courts ultimately held in favor of MR Starsky on this matter. But there
wasn't a rolling wave of student protests as there was on many other
campus.
I know sometimes during that period to there are also some of the chicano
students. Yes. Through the organization called Nature.
In fact, one of our graduates who is now a legislator was the leader of
that organization early on and that group protested.
Okay. The one issue that I recall, there were several, one was that the
university had a contract with the linen service that allegedly mistreated
its employees or didn't pay them enough. And that was a big issue on the
campus and then moves to secure more hispanic teachers and staff members
and so on. But the the protests were generally orderly. I think there were
also some student moves that moved right into the administration building
on occasion, right into the president's office. Mhm. President Durham met
, invited them in as a gentleman he was and talked with them and and the
score them out. Uh That was probably the extent of the activity. Were you
involved at all? Yes.
Yes. I was invited to come over and see what was appropriate under the
circumstances. one of the group's wasn't the major group pitched tents,
pup tents on the lawn in front of the administration building in protest.
I don't recall. We had a marvelous director of security who handled that
beautifully had been an FBI director and he handled it well well, I
remember one other incident that I probably shouldn't mention and that was
at the time. American troops moved into cambodia. Students were aroused
and they marched over to the campus flagpole which was located west of the
present administration building. And they demanded that the flag be
lowered to half mast and the university officials thought it inappropriate.
But our director of law enforcement said lower the lower the flag which
they did. The students were satisfied and left. But that action so
antagonized the governor of the state of Arizona that not only to
reprimand the institution, but he demanded that the regions include a
section in the student code of conduct, that one of the actions for which
sanctions would be imposed at lowering the flag to half staff without the
permission of the governor.
Do you remember anything about a sit in with the ROTC? I do. I do.
The present Factory University club was originally, as I recall the second
building on the campus after old main This is adjacent to it and In the
1970s, early 1970s, late 60s as I recall, it was used as an art annex and
a group of students. He was protesting, I believe the war and they
occupied the outside stair well which was on the facade of the building
and they camped there and they threw a banner that was largely read over
the railing and said they were going to stay there. The university didn't
know what to do and they asked me and they finally called the county
attorney for some help because citizens were coming and they were
aggravated, antagonized by the fact that students were taking over a
building and they threatened to go after them, perhaps do them harm. And
so the university called moist burger of the Van County attorney. I said,
what can we do, what can we charge these people with? And he apparently
pulled down the Arizona revised statutes and thumbed through and said,
well, you can you can arrest them for flying a flag, a red flag in support
of overthrowing the government of the United States.
And so the university police officers came and arrested the students and
took them down to jail. What the county attorney had not read in his
pursuit of an issue for a reason to rest was that that statute was
unconstitutional and had been declared unconstitutional. An identical
statue in California in the early 1930s. So it was kind of an interesting
turn, the students were released. That was the end of the incident.
It's an interesting interesting one, probably should have called in more
of the law school should have done so absolutely, somebody in
Constitutional Law during this period too, Not necessarily in war protests
, but other protests in the 60s and 70s, the law school was new and the
law school was committed to speech and openness. And so the law school was
the site of for many speakers and groups to come controversial because
other divisions of the university did not want to be tarred with the fact
that they had invited someone controversial. So they asked to use the
Great Hall at the law building and it was full of uh controversial
speakers. Oh yes, Angela Davis one and speaker with respect to legalizing
marijuana persons. And that's
you were talking about the chicano movement you wanna name who was the
leader of that? Was Ben Miranda. He's now representative in the Arizona
House of Representatives. Isn't joe Eddie Lopez involved. It might have
been I don't
yes, I I didn't know him. Um, pam I had there was wasn't there a big
controversy with the state press where the newspaper was the university
paper was eventually stopped or started again. I'm trying to think that
there was and I'm not sure I'm acquainted with all the details. I do know
that the university was embarrassed by something was said, the state
legislators read the state press and the Arizona Wildcats daily has been
when I've been down the legislature on their desks or these papers and
they were upset about something. What has happened with the state press
and with college newspapers around the country at public schools is
basically that there they're just declared independent. The university
though, supplying money from the student fees has renounced responsibility
for them, basically. There used to be a an advisor and there used to be a
board that would review the material, but that infringed upon what is
known as prior restraint and censorship. And so now the state press is
basically this independent makes its own decisions, publishes what it
wants and then is responsible should it go over the line,
the College of Law get involved in any, you know, we haven't been, Ed
Clary was called the chair committee I think at the time of this problem
with the state press and made some recommendations I think one of which
was cut it loose, let it be independent and and go from there. Um you
mentioned some of the changes at the school of the the native american
legal. Were you involved in developing? Yes, well somewhat. Uh well, while
I was denied, I was involved in the creation of another special program at
the law school which I should have mentioned earlier. In response to your
question is the center for the study of Law, Science and Technology. And
we have added faculty members with special competence in the sciences as
well as in law. And this is developed. We have a special journal,
geometrics it's called, which is published by the section on Law Science
and technology of the american Bar Association. It's edited by a member of
our faculty and by students who serve as editors for the journal. We
sponsor important projects and we now have a relatively new faculty
marinara member Gary martin who has a degree in genetics as well as law
and who heads that center. And we have, he just received a half million
dollar grant. Uh and he, in cooperation with scientists on the campus is
examining ah foods development, foods, the controversy about
special foods that are altered and so on. It's it's a very interesting
place and the agenda is growing. Always the other special program is the
indian law program. This was created by my successor as dean paul bender
and it has as its goals providing instruction in India law. And we may
have to native american faculty members plus the ah a faculty member who
is not an indian but is the guru of indian education research in the
country bob clinton. We, as part of the program have attracted many native
american students to the law school. We now have more native american
students than any other law school in the country, including the
University of Oklahoma and the University of New Mexico. And we sponsor
research and outreach. And so we have developed relationships with the
representatives from the tribes in Arizona. We conduct special programs of
importance such as gaming. Uh at the indian reservations, there's an all
day program tomorrow on religion and the tribes in Arizona that will
attract several 100 people. Think a lot of people don't realize that the
tribe, tribal courts have tribal courts and many of our native american
students have come and now hold important positions all over the country,
lawyers in Washington D. C. State of Washington, members of law firms in
phoenix and Nebraska and elsewhere. It's been very satisfying to watch
that program developed and evolved. Tribal courts have evolved to be more
formal courts. They started, they have and we have provided instruction
and that indian law program unofficially started with William Canby, Judge
Canby who taught in the law when he was first on the faculty and it
evolved into the formal program. Later.
Anything else like that that you thought of that? I don't believe so. Well
one aspect of the law program which I think it's not unique to Arizona
state but it's an important aspect and we've emphasized the right from the
first is the clinical program. This means that supplementing or
complementing the academic side and the classwork is an in house clinic
where students come and under the supervision of attorneys who are members
of the faculty, take live clients and pursue their legal claims through
the courts or the agencies. We have the one in house clinic, we have a
that's a civil clinic and we have a public defender criminal clinic. We
have a prosecutor clinic, not in the school but our students are placed
out with the city of phoenix Mesa Tempe and so on and they try cases. This
program is is approved by the Supreme Court of Arizona which allows us to
certify students to try these cases to pursue and to act as attorneys
under the supervision of our law professors. That has been a very
satisfying and very popular element in our, in our program. Worthwhile
part of it. Mhm. Um tell us a little bit about just how you've seen a
issue change. And the college of the obviously
part of that I have answered previously, the College of Law has changed
from this new enterprise where we're kind of groping our way and trying to
find our way to respectability to law school that's in the mainstream,
that is respected.
Has these specialties that add to the statue of the school, has graduates
now gracing the courts and the law firms and government. The Attorney
general terry Goddard is a, this is one of our graduates, the former
Secretary of State, Dick Mahoney. It's one of our graduates and so on. It
has it has arrived. Uh Yes, you
in some respects was And I don't need to overstate but it was quiet and
modest in a way in the 60s, it was blossoming. It had this revolutionary
change of having the name changed from college to university. And as I
recall, the only institution in the country where this was done by vote of
the citizens because the region's again, would not approve it and the
state legislature would not approve it. And so under greater damage. Jim
Cressman and others led the charge and it was, it was achieved shouldn't
have been that difficult, but it was. So it had the name and then it had
to build its programs to match the name university. And
I, I think the most dramatic change has been in the quality of the
institution and in the emphasis on research and the rather dramatic change
in the program of research in its size, in its dimensions, in its variety.
Mhm. This is a major research institution And a few years ago under
President Corps became a research one institution. This is just absolutely
amazing. There was research done in former years and some of it. Very good
research. I was impressed with the quality of the faculty at the time I
came. I'm impressed with the quality of the faculty Now. I think the major
emphasis now is upon research more than it was at the time I came. But I
see also this reaching out to the community having the institution as a
force for contributing to the economy, not just America County, but
throughout the state and beyond. And I think that there is
will continue to be enormous growth in this institution. This, I think
that the title we now favor is major Metropolitan Research University and
that's what it is. And with the satellite in the east and the satellite in
the west and with the prospect of thousands upon thousands more students.
This is going to be, if not the largest public university in the country
, one of the largest and if it has the resources and the will, there's no
no stopping it about the College of law. Do you think it will continue to
get bigger? You have branches of the No, I think that's not the plan. I
think it will maintain the same size. We hope it will strengthen. We hope
that we will ah have our special centers, the indian program and the
science program continue to grow and achieve. We're not planning a major
change in the number. Although there are some at the university who are
mentioning a night school. I think that's being investigated. That might
come. It's not something I think the law faculty would would move as a
matter of prime importance, but that might come as well and that would
expand the numbers. But in a different setting. What advice do you give to
students coming onto campus and trying to decide about careers?
Multiple advice, study hard,
take a good broad
education.
I'm one who believes the Liberal Arts Education is preferred.
Look to more than one possible
career. Try and prepare yourself for more than one because very likely if
you aspire to one, you may not be able to make it and it may be relegated
by the change in the national scene to something that's less productive.
So I think those are my words of advice to anyone coming. Mhm. Anything I
didn't ask you that you wanted to tell me. I think not. I accept. I would
say in answer to an earlier question. I did not expect to stay at Arizona
state, but I have stayed and it has been rewarding and satisfying. I have
a passion love for this place. It's a great institution and I've had a
great life in my academic career. I can't imagine it being better. Very
good ending anything human that I should have asked.
I have a question. Yeah, I had a couple of questions. One of them was uh
do you think that the law school here uh has a thrust or a, I mean a
specialty or what would you, how would you describe your law school here?
Aside from the special programs, we have a traditional program. It's a
three year graduate program
in that three years or in those three years, the students cannot
specialize. They can be introduced to various aspects of the law. And
those aspects are many and broad,
but they are given kind of an introduction how to study law, how to do
their research, how to, to be sensitive to legal issues and so on. Ah
After a person graduates from law school and passes the bar, that person
enters into what is called practice. And it may be practiced in many
senses because we don't turn out graduates who are fully prepared and
competent to step in and handle complex legal issues. No law school does
that. So if, if a person wants to specialize that person is going to have
to move into an area of law such as bankruptcy or family law, corporate
law, tax law and learn on the job or take another degree, an advanced
degree in law, like a master of laws and study that particular specialty.
Uh So that's, that's the program here and added most law schools.
Mhm. The only other thing I had, we've, we've tried to talk a little bit
about, you know, Arizona State University is a wonderful place and there's
been a lot of wonderful things, but there's been some controversy and I
sort of wanted to get your from a legal perspective on, for instance, kush
on the incident with kush well, how would you describe that? Okay. From,
from a legal standpoint, I don't think I can add much at the university
was certainly uh free to fire him for his activity. So there was not a
legal question there. I think it was a public relations question and I was
amazed and continually amazed at the role that athletics place, higher
education,
The strong feelings about it. You know, I have the same seats in the
stadium that I had in 1967. I've come to the games. I've never let my
tickets go. Used to have a collection in the stadium there of all the law
professors would sit together. All of them have gone, but I refused to
give up my seats there. Uh And when frank kush was here, The games were
interesting, but kind of boring. I mean 62 7 and 49-2 and you know, now
we're losing more games, but they're a little more interesting and kush
was fine. He was a good coach. Did well. I was amazed to find out that his
firing had an impact on the law school. And I found that because we sent
out letters on our annual fund and I got back some of them that said, I
refused to give another dime to the law school because of what you did to
frank kush. Now, wait a minute. Law school didn't have nothing to do with
frankly. Oh yes. So what's that? So you got blamed for it? I got blamed
for it. Sure. But when people are giving money, they are sensitive to
certain things and athletics is one for many. I've always thought it was
ironic that after the firing and everything that well, I think there was
recognition after the emotions died down and years past, the wonderful
contribution he had made. So now we have the statue out front, we have the
frank kush field and he did. He brought the issue football program to
national prominence. There's no question about it. He did. And and we owe
him that that debt, those who have come after the coaches have inherited a
program that he helped build and they've enhanced it and refined it. But I
think, you know, I like frank kush when when he was was fired. I thought
the university did the right thing. It's an interesting chapter.