WEBVTT 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:05.497 to start off, I'll just introduce myself. I'm pam Stevenson and we are 00:00:05.530 --> 00:00:10.916 here at the um A A. S. U. Visitors information center during an oral 00:00:10.949 --> 00:00:15.086 history interview for the living history video project for Arizona State 00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:20.706 University retirees Association. It's Thursday, 00:00:20.739 --> 00:00:25.706 23, 2003. And I'll let you introduce yourself and give us your full name. 00:00:25.739 --> 00:00:30.817 And what was your title when you retired from the issue? My name is Alan 00:00:30.850 --> 00:00:36.586 Matheson and I retired as a professor of law at the College of Law and 00:00:36.619 --> 00:00:39.317 then we'll go back and get a little background. Tell me about when you 00:00:39.350 --> 00:00:44.436 were born and where you were born. I was born a long time ago in southern 00:00:44.469 --> 00:00:50.427 Utah and I was raised in Salt Lake city Utah attended the schools there 00:00:50.460 --> 00:00:55.107 and then went on to the University of Utah where I received all three of 00:00:55.140 --> 00:01:00.137 my degrees including law school? 00:01:00.170 --> 00:01:07.057 No, no, I was born in 1932 in the the beginning of the Great Depression. 00:01:07.090 --> 00:01:11.607 And when I was born, my dad went to collect the money he had saved to pay 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:17.286 for my delivery and the bank had failed. So I arrived without financial 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:23.766 assistance with the dead already. With the dead already? Um Well, tell me 00:01:23.799 --> 00:01:31.007 about, were you a good student? I think so. I like to think so. 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:35.747 Um when you went to college, did you know then you wanted to go into law? 00:01:35.780 --> 00:01:39.217 What did you make that decision? I didn't at first my father was a lawyer 00:01:39.250 --> 00:01:43.857 and though he was very successful, he tried to discourage me from getting 00:01:43.890 --> 00:01:49.717 into it. He thought that I, my interests and talents were better suited 00:01:49.750 --> 00:01:54.236 elsewhere and he didn't live long enough to know that I was in the 00:01:54.269 --> 00:01:57.587 teaching of law, which would have thrilled him. What did he think you 00:01:57.620 --> 00:02:03.647 should do? I'm not sure that he was specifying anything in particular, but 00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:07.887 I think in his heart, he hoped that I would be a university professor. I 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:14.636 used to do both. Um tell me about what prompted you to come down from Utah 00:02:14.669 --> 00:02:19.816 come down to Arizona. And the issue, I was prompted by a phone call from 00:02:19.849 --> 00:02:24.436 President Homer Durham, who had been a teacher of mine at the university 00:02:24.469 --> 00:02:31.707 of Utah many years before and he asked me to come down and meet with him 00:02:31.740 --> 00:02:38.647 to consider the possibility of having a position as his legal advisor and 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:43.047 also a position at the new law school which was just being founded. What 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:47.547 were you doing at the time? I was assistant to the President at Utah State 00:02:47.580 --> 00:02:52.237 University. So that would have been a logical move to, you're already in 00:02:52.270 --> 00:02:57.566 the university system. Yes, yes, it was. So what made you decide to go 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:04.636 ahead move? I was pleased that the idea of having more involvement with 00:03:04.669 --> 00:03:09.487 the law and with legal issues. And this gave me that, I was also very 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:13.196 intrigued with the thought of participating in the new venture, the new 00:03:13.229 --> 00:03:17.756 law school, which was just starting from scratch. And I also had enormous 00:03:17.789 --> 00:03:22.397 respect for homer Durham and thought that working with him would be a 00:03:22.430 --> 00:03:27.987 wonderful experience as it was. And what year was that? I came in mid year 00:03:28.020 --> 00:03:35.767 , I came in December of 1967. I was hired before but my employer would not 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:40.136 release me until december. 00:03:40.169 --> 00:03:45.747 It was a good time. However, that year in 1967 such a heavy snowfall that 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:50.376 we couldn't drive down 91 and come through Flagstaff. We had to go by way 00:03:50.409 --> 00:03:53.807 of las Vegas. 00:03:53.840 --> 00:04:00.626 What was the issue like in 1967? Far different institutions smaller, it 00:04:00.659 --> 00:04:07.756 was feeling its way it's graduate program was started and under but it had 00:04:07.789 --> 00:04:14.006 not achieved great strength and recognition. It was smaller in the sense 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:19.527 that one could know people throughout the campus. Uh huh. Had a nice, 00:04:19.560 --> 00:04:26.517 comfortable homey family feeling. Um It was under the shadow then of the 00:04:26.550 --> 00:04:29.106 University of Arizona. 00:04:29.139 --> 00:04:34.317 It was kind of a step child to the Arizona legislature at the time because 00:04:34.350 --> 00:04:39.236 the budget was in the hands of a professor from the University of Arizona 00:04:39.269 --> 00:04:45.077 who doled out the money and in the doling a issue came up short and it 00:04:45.110 --> 00:04:51.806 took many, many years for it to achieve some sort of equity in that regard. 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:56.317 So what was your first job of the first title when you, I came as the 00:04:56.350 --> 00:05:02.317 assistant dean at the College of Law and as the legal advisor to President 00:05:02.350 --> 00:05:05.106 Durham. However, 00:05:05.139 --> 00:05:09.746 that title of legal advisor was not published and announced because at the 00:05:09.779 --> 00:05:16.366 time legal opinions for the university and for the board of regions had to 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:21.077 go through the Arizona state Attorney General's office. And so I was an 00:05:21.110 --> 00:05:26.437 unofficial legal advisor. And how big was the College of Law? Was it 00:05:26.470 --> 00:05:30.426 actually an official college of Law at that time we, the College of Law 00:05:30.459 --> 00:05:36.137 had been organized and I came During the first semester. The doors of the 00:05:36.170 --> 00:05:42.967 college were opened in the fall of 1967 and I arrived in december. So it 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:47.866 was a class of very courageous young people Who allied themselves with an 00:05:47.899 --> 00:05:51.926 unknown quantity of brand new law school. There were approximately 120 of 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:57.007 them. Why do they actually want to have a law school? 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:02.447 I'm not certain, but I'm assuming that it was because it added some 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:08.606 stature. Uh, and I am told perhaps this is anecdotal that the law school 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:15.536 is here as a booby prize because just before I came there was a rivalry 00:06:15.569 --> 00:06:20.286 with respect to the location of the medical school and the University of 00:06:20.319 --> 00:06:25.957 Arizona had the health services curriculum and phoenix had the hospital 00:06:25.990 --> 00:06:31.077 facilities and there was a tussle between the cities as to where the 00:06:31.110 --> 00:06:36.106 medical school would go. But the board of Regents moved it to Arizona and 00:06:36.139 --> 00:06:40.187 the story is that homer Durham in his briefcase to that meeting brought 00:06:40.220 --> 00:06:43.437 out or had in his briefcase a plan for law school brought it out and 00:06:43.470 --> 00:06:46.496 presented it. And after the regions have decided on the medical school at 00:06:46.529 --> 00:06:53.096 Tucson, they were more receptive to the request for law school. What does 00:06:53.129 --> 00:06:59.606 it take to start a law school? It takes uh, 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:06.527 talented people, it takes a lot of patients and it takes financial 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:08.707 assistance. 00:07:08.740 --> 00:07:16.406 And the Homer Durham was instrumental in starting a solid, successful law 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:20.507 school by recruiting as the founding dean. Willard Pedrick from 00:07:20.540 --> 00:07:26.397 Northwestern Law School and he was the first appointee and he said the 00:07:26.430 --> 00:07:29.746 most successful year of his deanship was that first year because he had no 00:07:29.779 --> 00:07:36.707 faculty, no students and no alumni to respond to. But pad recruited uh, 00:07:36.740 --> 00:07:43.207 Amazingly one of the strongest law faculties in the country. Ed Clary from 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:47.736 Illinois, Richard Heflin from Wisconsin. Harold havoc, hurst from 00:07:47.769 --> 00:07:53.536 Northwestern William Canby, who is now the 9th circuit federal judge as 00:07:53.569 --> 00:07:59.507 our young Higher and so on that. That ensured that the college would 00:07:59.540 --> 00:08:05.356 succeed because of the quality and the experience and the respect for 00:08:05.389 --> 00:08:08.406 those appointees. 00:08:08.439 --> 00:08:12.457 And what was your role then? What did you actually do? My role as 00:08:12.490 --> 00:08:19.937 assistant dean was basically to help Pedrick with matters such as 00:08:19.970 --> 00:08:26.486 scheduling, assigning classes of kind of the academic support, assigning 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:31.106 classes to professors, meeting with students, helping the students 00:08:31.139 --> 00:08:37.396 organize into groups, that kind of thing handling the budget, handling 00:08:37.429 --> 00:08:42.626 administrative details to free the dean too, raise money to speak and to 00:08:42.659 --> 00:08:46.976 promote the law school and where was the law school? The law school 00:08:47.009 --> 00:08:52.207 started in the Old Matthews Library, which is on the mall opposite the 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:58.307 liberal arts building. It's now the museum location and the law school was 00:08:58.340 --> 00:09:05.907 given a couple of places, one classroom and a few offices in that building. 00:09:05.940 --> 00:09:11.846 And when I came I was housed in an office interestingly that it had no no 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:17.697 ceiling and it it was adjacent to the classroom where held Harold have 00:09:17.730 --> 00:09:20.736 accursed was teaching contracts. This distinguished gentleman who had been 00:09:20.769 --> 00:09:25.606 deemed at Northwestern and on the other side of my office was a philosophy 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:29.217 class taught by Morris Starsky, who was a very controversial figure in 00:09:29.250 --> 00:09:33.327 Arizona State's history. So I had this very liberal education because I 00:09:33.360 --> 00:09:38.937 had the dignified dean teaching contracts on one side with no barrier and 00:09:38.970 --> 00:09:43.526 or Starsky ranting on the other side. So it was an interesting place. We 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:51.559 were at the Matthews Library there from september until february and after 00:09:51.779 --> 00:09:57.077 the university appointed Pedrick as Dean, it moved immediately to provide 00:09:57.110 --> 00:10:02.866 a new building for the law school at its present site And that building 00:10:02.899 --> 00:10:09.116 was ready in and dedicated in February of 1968. And so my very first 00:10:09.149 --> 00:10:13.116 assignment as assistant team was to help organize the details of that 00:10:13.149 --> 00:10:18.317 dedication. We had a special conference at the law school banquets, Other 00:10:18.350 --> 00:10:24.937 events to hail the opening of the school was very quick well Pedrick was 00:10:24.970 --> 00:10:28.006 appointed in 1966, 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:33.297 so at that time, the school had committed some resources at the time? 00:10:33.330 --> 00:10:36.486 There was a higher education act and some federal money came as matching. 00:10:36.519 --> 00:10:41.407 But it moved with alacrity and the building was amazingly inexpensive. 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:47.606 Could not have been built for for that price at other times. 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:51.616 Mhm. Did you think at the time that you came here, were you planning to 00:10:51.649 --> 00:10:56.486 stay and make your career? I did not have that thought. As I came, I 00:10:56.519 --> 00:11:00.167 thought it would be a very interesting experience. But quite frankly, I 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:04.807 didn't expect to remain in in Arizona for the rest of my life. But I have 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:09.516 done so what what what what brought that about? How did your career 00:11:09.549 --> 00:11:14.396 progress from that first, from the first year it's been at the law school 00:11:14.429 --> 00:11:20.626 except for one year, I progressed from the assistant dean, an assistant 00:11:20.659 --> 00:11:27.606 professor, to associate dean and professor. And then I became acting dean 00:11:27.639 --> 00:11:31.776 at a time when our second dean, Ernest Gellhorn left suddenly after two 00:11:31.809 --> 00:11:36.146 years here accepted the deanship at another place and I was appointed as 00:11:36.179 --> 00:11:41.346 acting dean. And then after a search was conducted, I was appointed as the 00:11:41.379 --> 00:11:49.379 regular dean and served For five years in that capacity 1979 00:11:49.419 --> 00:11:51.606 to 1984. 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:57.606 And then I stepped back to being a full time teacher. 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:05.639 And after that I was called back to be interim dean on four occasions. So 00:12:05.870 --> 00:12:10.957 I've been for the most part teaching lit la classes and very happily 00:12:10.990 --> 00:12:16.646 teaching them and also serving in temporary times as the law school 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:24.679 administrators to stand by Dean standby Dean, I suppose. Why is that 00:12:26.539 --> 00:12:29.606 fortuitous events? 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:34.346 A new dean was appointed at one time and could not come until february. So 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:39.736 there was a semester and no one was available. So they asked me to stand 00:12:39.769 --> 00:12:45.106 in for the semester. And then when our most recent dean was appointed, 00:12:45.139 --> 00:12:51.636 Patricia White, um, there was a gap because our former dean Richard morgan 00:12:51.669 --> 00:12:55.297 , had suddenly accepted a position in Nevada to start a new law school 00:12:55.330 --> 00:12:59.207 there. And 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:02.157 for some reason the university turned to me and I served as dean for a 00:13:02.190 --> 00:13:07.986 year and a half an interim dean. Uh huh. Patricia White was unable to come 00:13:08.019 --> 00:13:12.486 at the first of the year. She came in january And she has served for 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:17.896 nearly five years and you served for five years. Did you enjoy being dean 00:13:17.929 --> 00:13:22.356 or why did you step down for me? I enjoyed it very much. For the most part 00:13:22.389 --> 00:13:28.437 , there's something appealing about leading a group of bright able people 00:13:28.470 --> 00:13:34.967 and hoping that one might have some positive impact upon an enterprise for 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.537 which one has great respect and affection. Uh, my feeling was that five 00:13:39.570 --> 00:13:44.606 years was a sufficient time. There is a time to go into a deanship at a 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:49.197 time to come out and I felt the time had arrived that I had done what I 00:13:49.230 --> 00:13:54.157 thought I could and I thought it was time for a new person to come into 00:13:54.190 --> 00:13:58.006 the office. 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:02.707 Are there any highlights as you think back over your career? That 00:14:02.740 --> 00:14:05.907 particularly memorable events? 00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:10.756 I think the dedication of the law school for one 00:14:10.789 --> 00:14:16.226 that was it the Gammage Auditorium and we had invited the leaders of the 00:14:16.259 --> 00:14:20.287 state and the legal profession and others. And the main speaker was then 00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:25.167 Chief Justice Earl Warren of the United States Supreme Court because he 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:30.106 was there and because he was controversial, I remember that I received 00:14:30.139 --> 00:14:34.026 threatening phone calls from the citizens of Arizona who were upset 00:14:34.059 --> 00:14:39.307 because we were tainting the school by having Earl Warren appear and the 00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:43.006 governor of the state of Arizona refused to come and sit on the same stage 00:14:43.039 --> 00:14:46.707 with the Chief justice 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:53.506 Jack Williams while the Chief justice was giving his dedic a torrey speech. 00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:59.896 Vans moved along Apache boulevard and around two mil with big signs on 00:14:59.929 --> 00:15:06.437 impeach Earl Warren. But this wonderful gentleman stood up as though he 00:15:06.470 --> 00:15:14.217 were in his own yard or home, spoke beautifully and there was a the 00:15:14.250 --> 00:15:19.626 auditorium was filled to capacity and gave him a rounding standing ovation 00:15:19.659 --> 00:15:25.376 around standing ovation. So that was and then we had the longest academic 00:15:25.409 --> 00:15:31.177 procession ever I think because the line of robed representatives moved 00:15:31.210 --> 00:15:34.996 from Gammage Auditorium all the way over to the new law school on the then 00:15:35.029 --> 00:15:38.496 east side of the campus and then there was a delicate ori ceremony that 00:15:38.529 --> 00:15:45.677 was very interesting and we had former Dean of Harvard Law School Erwin 00:15:45.710 --> 00:15:52.136 Griswold was the speaker and his pet was introducing him he said and the 00:15:52.169 --> 00:15:57.407 speaker is Dean Ernest Griswold of Harvard and then he was solicitor 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:01.736 general of the United States So that he is the recipient of 31 honorary 00:16:01.769 --> 00:16:08.006 degrees and he bent over and said 32. 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.006 The dedication was fine. 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:19.039 In 1977 the school had been in being very short time. There was a ranking 00:16:19.490 --> 00:16:27.146 of law schools by U. C. L. A. On various bases and that study included a 00:16:27.179 --> 00:16:29.876 issue. This brand new law school among the top 20 law schools in the 00:16:29.909 --> 00:16:34.797 country and the most innovative law school in the country. That was that 00:16:34.830 --> 00:16:40.246 was exciting great satisfaction in being a part of the new law school, the 00:16:40.279 --> 00:16:48.116 Camelot period with these wonderful persons talented gentlemen, there were 00:16:48.149 --> 00:16:53.116 no women at the time on the faculty. But it was a wonderful period in 00:16:53.149 --> 00:16:57.626 terms of establishing policy for the law school, watching it grow, 00:16:57.659 --> 00:17:01.746 responding to that growth, interacting with members of the legal 00:17:01.779 --> 00:17:09.779 profession and state officials and and watching it having 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:13.707 accreditation come as early as that was possible from the American Bar 00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:18.296 Association. Just watching it grow and develop and become a mainstream 00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:23.377 respected law school. When did you get the accreditation accreditation 00:17:23.410 --> 00:17:28.806 came with? As the first class was graduating. So they were able to 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:32.467 graduate from accredited law school by the american Bar association which 00:17:32.500 --> 00:17:37.347 allowed them to take the bar exam in Arizona and throughout the country. 00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:41.496 If that accreditation had not come when it did, then they would not have 00:17:41.529 --> 00:17:46.736 been able to sit for those exams. I imagine that also unable to get a 00:17:46.769 --> 00:17:51.207 better caliber of students. Oh yes. Oh yes, potential lawyers are always 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:54.586 thinking about where their degree is going to be from. That's true, the 00:17:54.619 --> 00:17:56.796 law school 00:17:56.829 --> 00:18:00.306 served a need because even though there was a law school in Tucson for 00:18:00.339 --> 00:18:04.076 many years at the University of Arizona, there were some students who 00:18:04.109 --> 00:18:09.707 could not leave town, they were tied here by spouses or work or whatever. 00:18:09.740 --> 00:18:14.266 And in those first classes we had some outstanding people, more mature 00:18:14.299 --> 00:18:19.647 students who had this opportunity to go to law study and took advantage of 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:22.836 it. It was a very interesting time. Can you think of any particular 00:18:22.869 --> 00:18:26.576 students that stand out in your mind? Oh, there are lots of students who 00:18:26.609 --> 00:18:33.996 stand out, you're putting me on the spot, included in that first class was 00:18:34.029 --> 00:18:38.836 Michael Gallagher, who is the uh senior partner and founder of the major 00:18:38.869 --> 00:18:45.117 firm in the, in the city of Gallagher and Kennedy, uh Sarah Grant who 00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:51.967 became a judge on the Court of Appeals. Uh and a few classes later, Ruth 00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:56.556 McGregor who is now a justice on the Arizona Supreme Court. Three of the 00:18:56.589 --> 00:19:00.056 five justices on the Supreme Court are graduates of our law school, 00:19:00.089 --> 00:19:06.167 including ruth Rebecca birch from a later class. Uh huh and the most 00:19:06.200 --> 00:19:09.707 recent appointee, 00:19:09.740 --> 00:19:13.657 but we're very proud of those, those people who is the most recent 00:19:13.690 --> 00:19:21.690 deployment. Uh and I have a memory lapse here. It's no, Andy Hurwitz was 00:19:21.750 --> 00:19:25.576 was a teacher at the school part time teacher but was never a full time 00:19:25.609 --> 00:19:32.187 member of the faculty. I will, I will remember the name and he was not too 00:19:32.220 --> 00:19:36.177 long. No. And he is the more recent actually. He is the most recent, the 00:19:36.210 --> 00:19:42.187 one before that fine man. And I I'm embarrassed but I don't remember this 00:19:42.220 --> 00:19:48.506 time. It will come to you. Um you mentioned that the original faculty was 00:19:48.539 --> 00:19:52.607 all men. What about the students? 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:58.167 Initially a few women In the entering class of 120 some I think we had six 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:05.107 women and in subsequent years, I think it went down to three at one time. 00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:11.897 Ah And now there are times when the class has a majority of women. And how 00:20:11.930 --> 00:20:16.506 about the faculty? The faculty has several women, fortunately. Our, our 00:20:16.539 --> 00:20:22.607 dean is a woman. Our librarian as a woman and the directors of our legal 00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:28.566 clinic is a woman. The director of our indian law program is a woman and 00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:32.717 we're delighted to have that diversity and talent and that's been a major 00:20:32.750 --> 00:20:37.907 change in the legal profession. It has and in law schools, 00:20:37.940 --> 00:20:43.107 I suggest that perhaps now a majority of students attending law schools. 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:48.167 Our female at the present time. Did you ever expect that to happen? I 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:53.556 hoped it would as we started, it was hard to see that that was the way it 00:20:53.589 --> 00:20:59.127 was going to go at the time. Not too many women, young women had thought 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:06.006 of themselves as lawyers or had thought of pursuing illegal education. 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:11.756 And so I think it came as women realized that their opportunities were 00:21:11.789 --> 00:21:17.816 unlimited and we're encouraged to go to a professional schools and take 00:21:17.849 --> 00:21:24.107 advantage of the opportunities available to 00:21:24.140 --> 00:21:27.006 Okay, 00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:34.207 Mike Ryan is the other graduate fine fine man who has been Superior Court 00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:40.240 judge in the Court of Appeals judge and is on the Arizona Supreme Court. 00:21:42.740 --> 00:21:44.740 Let's see. Talk to cover a lot of these questions. Um, what are you 00:21:46.500 --> 00:21:54.500 proudest of of your career here at the issue 00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:03.627 teaching and at times teaching very effectively. I think in terms of 00:22:03.660 --> 00:22:08.796 evaluations that's been probably the single most a significant part of my 00:22:08.829 --> 00:22:14.107 being here. Uh huh serving as Dean. 00:22:14.140 --> 00:22:19.707 That meant a great deal to me and it gave me an opportunity to lead this 00:22:19.740 --> 00:22:24.637 enterprise. Something like I had not thought of it anytime before it 00:22:24.670 --> 00:22:31.076 happened. And then I had an interesting change of pace one year, I was 00:22:31.109 --> 00:22:35.546 president of the faculty Senate and housed another office building Dixie 00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:40.367 damage hall. And and have the experience of leading the Senate at that 00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:47.207 time. That was also an interesting and important aspect of my career here. 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:51.516 That was very different, very different. Absolutely, several of the 00:22:51.549 --> 00:22:56.736 people we've interviewed have done that. So, um tell me about teaching. 00:22:56.769 --> 00:23:02.526 What, what did you teach and I'm still teaching by the way. Uh I have 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:09.457 taught constitutional law, administrative law, education law and community 00:23:09.490 --> 00:23:17.367 property. Uh My favorite is constitutional law. I can't imagine a subject 00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:21.496 that would be more interesting and challenging than that particular 00:23:21.529 --> 00:23:27.107 subject. I just revel in teaching uh individual rights, constitutionally 00:23:27.140 --> 00:23:33.806 protected rights, constitutionally protected rights. That has been a dream 00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:39.086 so far as teaching is concerned, it's easy to relate that to students. The 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:46.306 students respond positively. It is timely because it's changing, its 00:23:46.339 --> 00:23:51.717 interesting to watch the interplay of the justices and the impact of 00:23:51.750 --> 00:23:56.907 having a new justice appointed and politics behind appointments and so on. 00:23:56.940 --> 00:24:02.177 It's just a fascinating area and that has been a standout in my, in my 00:24:02.210 --> 00:24:05.657 teaching career. And you say you're still teaching you, obviously you 00:24:05.690 --> 00:24:10.217 don't have to do that. I I teach part time, I do not play golf or have 00:24:10.250 --> 00:24:15.907 other activities attracting me to spend time away from the school. 00:24:15.940 --> 00:24:22.207 Teaching is my advocation as well as my location. So I teach half time and 00:24:22.240 --> 00:24:25.506 enjoy doing that. 00:24:25.539 --> 00:24:29.157 You served under quite a few of the president's going to talk about a 00:24:29.190 --> 00:24:35.607 little bit about some of them and surely homer Durham had been my teacher 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:43.107 and mentor earlier on and I I believe that he was responsible for 00:24:43.140 --> 00:24:47.457 basically the graduate program at Arizona State University Moving it from 00:24:47.490 --> 00:24:52.887 a rather modest institution towards becoming a mature, great institution. 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:58.986 I think he deserves more credit than he has received past an amazing 00:24:59.019 --> 00:25:04.887 person, very talented person. He was succeeded for just two years by Harry 00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:08.677 New Bern. I had a wonderful relationship with him, had a great deal of 00:25:08.710 --> 00:25:12.917 respect for him. He had been dean of the College of Education and then 00:25:12.950 --> 00:25:17.076 filled in for the two years. And I believe john Schwab to was the 00:25:17.109 --> 00:25:19.107 president, 00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:23.167 I believe he was brought in by the regions to kind of quell student unrest 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:29.266 at least. That's the, that's the view of many on the faculty. Uh, john was 00:25:29.299 --> 00:25:34.976 a fine person and it was he who appointed me as dean. So I, oh him that 00:25:35.009 --> 00:25:39.857 that privilege. He was succeeded by Russ nelson, very effective president 00:25:39.890 --> 00:25:46.217 , worked well with him, served on in many capacities. He kept appointing 00:25:46.250 --> 00:25:51.147 me as chair of searches for various university officers and served well 00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:59.180 with him and then Laddie Corps became president and I have 00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:04.726 unbridled admiration for Laddie core. He was the spokesperson and very 00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:10.066 effective spokesperson for higher education in the state. He supported 00:26:10.099 --> 00:26:15.720 faculty governance as I think no other president among those I have named. 00:26:16.539 --> 00:26:18.539 He had an open door, bright, good sense of humor, very effective in 00:26:23.869 --> 00:26:29.246 carrying the university's message And I think in his 11 years moved the 00:26:29.279 --> 00:26:37.279 school another stage upward, Each of the president's made his contribution. 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:43.347 But in those 11 years, letty core remade issue and made it attractive to 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:48.806 the present president, Michael Crump 00:26:48.839 --> 00:26:53.586 among those years. It's quite a span of time that you've been here. Are 00:26:53.619 --> 00:26:58.607 there any particularly troubled times that comes to mind 00:26:58.640 --> 00:27:05.157 the troubled times that come to mind deal with budgets strangely enough or 00:27:05.190 --> 00:27:10.127 perhaps not so strangely as I was dean, we would the university would 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:14.857 receive its appropriations from the legislature. The university in turn 00:27:14.890 --> 00:27:20.276 would give it allotment to the law school. And then at mid year when 00:27:20.309 --> 00:27:23.957 finances in the states were deteriorating, we would be asked to make 00:27:23.990 --> 00:27:29.607 midyear cuts after we had made our plans, hired our people and it was very 00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:32.006 painful 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.617 and that occurred. I think every year I was dean, I would never have the 00:27:35.650 --> 00:27:41.697 luxury of having the allotment, the budget maintained throughout the year 00:27:41.730 --> 00:27:44.847 so that we could do what we wanted to do. I think that probably was the 00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:48.367 whole point. 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.726 Were you here during some of the war protests, I was here. The war 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:59.207 protests at issue were rather subdued. I think there was 00:27:59.240 --> 00:28:05.907 a fire bomb thrown on a roof. And there was a great deal of publicity 00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:11.937 about MR Starsky. Professor Starsky attending a war protest meeting in 00:28:11.970 --> 00:28:16.526 Tucson that ultimately led to his dismissal by the board of regions over 00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:21.207 the recommendation of the faculty and the President of University and the 00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:27.847 courts ultimately held in favor of MR Starsky on this matter. But there 00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:33.566 wasn't a rolling wave of student protests as there was on many other 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:36.006 campus. 00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:39.927 I know sometimes during that period to there are also some of the chicano 00:28:39.960 --> 00:28:45.607 students. Yes. Through the organization called Nature. 00:28:45.640 --> 00:28:49.927 In fact, one of our graduates who is now a legislator was the leader of 00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:55.806 that organization early on and that group protested. 00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:00.617 Okay. The one issue that I recall, there were several, one was that the 00:29:00.650 --> 00:29:05.607 university had a contract with the linen service that allegedly mistreated 00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:08.407 its employees or didn't pay them enough. And that was a big issue on the 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:15.217 campus and then moves to secure more hispanic teachers and staff members 00:29:15.250 --> 00:29:22.917 and so on. But the the protests were generally orderly. I think there were 00:29:22.950 --> 00:29:27.697 also some student moves that moved right into the administration building 00:29:27.730 --> 00:29:33.627 on occasion, right into the president's office. Mhm. President Durham met 00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:37.796 , invited them in as a gentleman he was and talked with them and and the 00:29:37.829 --> 00:29:43.016 score them out. Uh That was probably the extent of the activity. Were you 00:29:43.049 --> 00:29:46.036 involved at all? Yes. 00:29:46.069 --> 00:29:49.197 Yes. I was invited to come over and see what was appropriate under the 00:29:49.230 --> 00:29:55.107 circumstances. one of the group's wasn't the major group pitched tents, 00:29:55.140 --> 00:29:59.306 pup tents on the lawn in front of the administration building in protest. 00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:07.339 I don't recall. We had a marvelous director of security who handled that 00:30:08.349 --> 00:30:14.316 beautifully had been an FBI director and he handled it well well, I 00:30:14.349 --> 00:30:18.907 remember one other incident that I probably shouldn't mention and that was 00:30:18.940 --> 00:30:24.816 at the time. American troops moved into cambodia. Students were aroused 00:30:24.849 --> 00:30:32.357 and they marched over to the campus flagpole which was located west of the 00:30:32.390 --> 00:30:37.576 present administration building. And they demanded that the flag be 00:30:37.609 --> 00:30:43.607 lowered to half mast and the university officials thought it inappropriate. 00:30:43.640 --> 00:30:51.437 But our director of law enforcement said lower the lower the flag which 00:30:51.470 --> 00:30:56.286 they did. The students were satisfied and left. But that action so 00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:59.877 antagonized the governor of the state of Arizona that not only to 00:30:59.910 --> 00:31:03.397 reprimand the institution, but he demanded that the regions include a 00:31:03.430 --> 00:31:09.546 section in the student code of conduct, that one of the actions for which 00:31:09.579 --> 00:31:13.586 sanctions would be imposed at lowering the flag to half staff without the 00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:17.006 permission of the governor. 00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:24.407 Do you remember anything about a sit in with the ROTC? I do. I do. 00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:32.440 The present Factory University club was originally, as I recall the second 00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:39.806 building on the campus after old main This is adjacent to it and In the 00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:47.536 1970s, early 1970s, late 60s as I recall, it was used as an art annex and 00:31:47.569 --> 00:31:54.316 a group of students. He was protesting, I believe the war and they 00:31:54.349 --> 00:32:00.707 occupied the outside stair well which was on the facade of the building 00:32:00.740 --> 00:32:06.726 and they camped there and they threw a banner that was largely read over 00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:10.566 the railing and said they were going to stay there. The university didn't 00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:14.927 know what to do and they asked me and they finally called the county 00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:20.266 attorney for some help because citizens were coming and they were 00:32:20.299 --> 00:32:24.546 aggravated, antagonized by the fact that students were taking over a 00:32:24.579 --> 00:32:31.597 building and they threatened to go after them, perhaps do them harm. And 00:32:31.630 --> 00:32:35.847 so the university called moist burger of the Van County attorney. I said, 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:40.746 what can we do, what can we charge these people with? And he apparently 00:32:40.779 --> 00:32:43.887 pulled down the Arizona revised statutes and thumbed through and said, 00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:51.526 well, you can you can arrest them for flying a flag, a red flag in support 00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:55.806 of overthrowing the government of the United States. 00:32:55.839 --> 00:33:02.127 And so the university police officers came and arrested the students and 00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:08.957 took them down to jail. What the county attorney had not read in his 00:33:08.990 --> 00:33:14.917 pursuit of an issue for a reason to rest was that that statute was 00:33:14.950 --> 00:33:19.597 unconstitutional and had been declared unconstitutional. An identical 00:33:19.630 --> 00:33:24.266 statue in California in the early 1930s. So it was kind of an interesting 00:33:24.299 --> 00:33:31.107 turn, the students were released. That was the end of the incident. 00:33:31.140 --> 00:33:35.187 It's an interesting interesting one, probably should have called in more 00:33:35.220 --> 00:33:39.756 of the law school should have done so absolutely, somebody in 00:33:39.789 --> 00:33:44.776 Constitutional Law during this period too, Not necessarily in war protests 00:33:44.809 --> 00:33:50.397 , but other protests in the 60s and 70s, the law school was new and the 00:33:50.430 --> 00:33:57.637 law school was committed to speech and openness. And so the law school was 00:33:57.670 --> 00:34:02.316 the site of for many speakers and groups to come controversial because 00:34:02.349 --> 00:34:06.607 other divisions of the university did not want to be tarred with the fact 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.447 that they had invited someone controversial. So they asked to use the 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:15.546 Great Hall at the law building and it was full of uh controversial 00:34:15.579 --> 00:34:23.579 speakers. Oh yes, Angela Davis one and speaker with respect to legalizing 00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:28.506 marijuana persons. And that's 00:34:28.539 --> 00:34:31.816 you were talking about the chicano movement you wanna name who was the 00:34:31.849 --> 00:34:36.686 leader of that? Was Ben Miranda. He's now representative in the Arizona 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:41.177 House of Representatives. Isn't joe Eddie Lopez involved. It might have 00:34:41.210 --> 00:34:45.916 been I don't 00:34:45.949 --> 00:34:53.157 yes, I I didn't know him. Um, pam I had there was wasn't there a big 00:34:53.190 --> 00:35:00.517 controversy with the state press where the newspaper was the university 00:35:00.550 --> 00:35:04.617 paper was eventually stopped or started again. I'm trying to think that 00:35:04.650 --> 00:35:08.367 there was and I'm not sure I'm acquainted with all the details. I do know 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:11.776 that the university was embarrassed by something was said, the state 00:35:11.809 --> 00:35:15.736 legislators read the state press and the Arizona Wildcats daily has been 00:35:15.769 --> 00:35:19.927 when I've been down the legislature on their desks or these papers and 00:35:19.960 --> 00:35:23.876 they were upset about something. What has happened with the state press 00:35:23.909 --> 00:35:28.026 and with college newspapers around the country at public schools is 00:35:28.059 --> 00:35:32.256 basically that there they're just declared independent. The university 00:35:32.289 --> 00:35:37.986 though, supplying money from the student fees has renounced responsibility 00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:41.747 for them, basically. There used to be a an advisor and there used to be a 00:35:41.780 --> 00:35:47.686 board that would review the material, but that infringed upon what is 00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:52.557 known as prior restraint and censorship. And so now the state press is 00:35:52.590 --> 00:35:55.867 basically this independent makes its own decisions, publishes what it 00:35:55.900 --> 00:36:00.606 wants and then is responsible should it go over the line, 00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.546 the College of Law get involved in any, you know, we haven't been, Ed 00:36:04.579 --> 00:36:09.236 Clary was called the chair committee I think at the time of this problem 00:36:09.269 --> 00:36:12.157 with the state press and made some recommendations I think one of which 00:36:12.190 --> 00:36:17.776 was cut it loose, let it be independent and and go from there. Um you 00:36:17.809 --> 00:36:22.657 mentioned some of the changes at the school of the the native american 00:36:22.690 --> 00:36:29.267 legal. Were you involved in developing? Yes, well somewhat. Uh well, while 00:36:29.300 --> 00:36:32.517 I was denied, I was involved in the creation of another special program at 00:36:32.550 --> 00:36:35.307 the law school which I should have mentioned earlier. In response to your 00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:40.106 question is the center for the study of Law, Science and Technology. And 00:36:40.139 --> 00:36:47.037 we have added faculty members with special competence in the sciences as 00:36:47.070 --> 00:36:51.247 well as in law. And this is developed. We have a special journal, 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:55.916 geometrics it's called, which is published by the section on Law Science 00:36:55.949 --> 00:37:00.526 and technology of the american Bar Association. It's edited by a member of 00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:05.947 our faculty and by students who serve as editors for the journal. We 00:37:05.980 --> 00:37:10.776 sponsor important projects and we now have a relatively new faculty 00:37:10.809 --> 00:37:16.097 marinara member Gary martin who has a degree in genetics as well as law 00:37:16.130 --> 00:37:21.267 and who heads that center. And we have, he just received a half million 00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:28.856 dollar grant. Uh and he, in cooperation with scientists on the campus is 00:37:28.889 --> 00:37:36.197 examining ah foods development, foods, the controversy about 00:37:36.230 --> 00:37:42.617 special foods that are altered and so on. It's it's a very interesting 00:37:42.650 --> 00:37:49.747 place and the agenda is growing. Always the other special program is the 00:37:49.780 --> 00:37:55.097 indian law program. This was created by my successor as dean paul bender 00:37:55.130 --> 00:38:03.086 and it has as its goals providing instruction in India law. And we may 00:38:03.119 --> 00:38:11.017 have to native american faculty members plus the ah a faculty member who 00:38:11.050 --> 00:38:15.526 is not an indian but is the guru of indian education research in the 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:21.546 country bob clinton. We, as part of the program have attracted many native 00:38:21.579 --> 00:38:25.936 american students to the law school. We now have more native american 00:38:25.969 --> 00:38:29.307 students than any other law school in the country, including the 00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:34.736 University of Oklahoma and the University of New Mexico. And we sponsor 00:38:34.769 --> 00:38:40.197 research and outreach. And so we have developed relationships with the 00:38:40.230 --> 00:38:44.847 representatives from the tribes in Arizona. We conduct special programs of 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:50.506 importance such as gaming. Uh at the indian reservations, there's an all 00:38:50.539 --> 00:38:55.336 day program tomorrow on religion and the tribes in Arizona that will 00:38:55.369 --> 00:38:59.117 attract several 100 people. Think a lot of people don't realize that the 00:38:59.150 --> 00:39:05.296 tribe, tribal courts have tribal courts and many of our native american 00:39:05.329 --> 00:39:10.586 students have come and now hold important positions all over the country, 00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:16.916 lawyers in Washington D. C. State of Washington, members of law firms in 00:39:16.949 --> 00:39:22.227 phoenix and Nebraska and elsewhere. It's been very satisfying to watch 00:39:22.260 --> 00:39:26.336 that program developed and evolved. Tribal courts have evolved to be more 00:39:26.369 --> 00:39:31.876 formal courts. They started, they have and we have provided instruction 00:39:31.909 --> 00:39:36.836 and that indian law program unofficially started with William Canby, Judge 00:39:36.869 --> 00:39:42.316 Canby who taught in the law when he was first on the faculty and it 00:39:42.349 --> 00:39:47.586 evolved into the formal program. Later. 00:39:47.619 --> 00:39:52.537 Anything else like that that you thought of that? I don't believe so. Well 00:39:52.570 --> 00:39:58.006 one aspect of the law program which I think it's not unique to Arizona 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:00.927 state but it's an important aspect and we've emphasized the right from the 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:06.456 first is the clinical program. This means that supplementing or 00:40:06.489 --> 00:40:12.236 complementing the academic side and the classwork is an in house clinic 00:40:12.269 --> 00:40:16.217 where students come and under the supervision of attorneys who are members 00:40:16.250 --> 00:40:21.856 of the faculty, take live clients and pursue their legal claims through 00:40:21.889 --> 00:40:28.477 the courts or the agencies. We have the one in house clinic, we have a 00:40:28.510 --> 00:40:33.177 that's a civil clinic and we have a public defender criminal clinic. We 00:40:33.210 --> 00:40:37.186 have a prosecutor clinic, not in the school but our students are placed 00:40:37.219 --> 00:40:44.307 out with the city of phoenix Mesa Tempe and so on and they try cases. This 00:40:44.340 --> 00:40:50.807 program is is approved by the Supreme Court of Arizona which allows us to 00:40:50.840 --> 00:40:55.347 certify students to try these cases to pursue and to act as attorneys 00:40:55.380 --> 00:40:59.026 under the supervision of our law professors. That has been a very 00:40:59.059 --> 00:41:05.606 satisfying and very popular element in our, in our program. Worthwhile 00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:10.827 part of it. Mhm. Um tell us a little bit about just how you've seen a 00:41:10.860 --> 00:41:15.876 issue change. And the college of the obviously 00:41:15.909 --> 00:41:19.796 part of that I have answered previously, the College of Law has changed 00:41:19.829 --> 00:41:25.717 from this new enterprise where we're kind of groping our way and trying to 00:41:25.750 --> 00:41:31.977 find our way to respectability to law school that's in the mainstream, 00:41:32.010 --> 00:41:35.577 that is respected. 00:41:35.610 --> 00:41:41.606 Has these specialties that add to the statue of the school, has graduates 00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:47.677 now gracing the courts and the law firms and government. The Attorney 00:41:47.710 --> 00:41:51.686 general terry Goddard is a, this is one of our graduates, the former 00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:59.719 Secretary of State, Dick Mahoney. It's one of our graduates and so on. It 00:41:59.949 --> 00:42:05.666 has it has arrived. Uh Yes, you 00:42:05.699 --> 00:42:10.717 in some respects was And I don't need to overstate but it was quiet and 00:42:10.750 --> 00:42:16.356 modest in a way in the 60s, it was blossoming. It had this revolutionary 00:42:16.389 --> 00:42:22.137 change of having the name changed from college to university. And as I 00:42:22.170 --> 00:42:26.057 recall, the only institution in the country where this was done by vote of 00:42:26.090 --> 00:42:30.907 the citizens because the region's again, would not approve it and the 00:42:30.940 --> 00:42:34.657 state legislature would not approve it. And so under greater damage. Jim 00:42:34.690 --> 00:42:39.206 Cressman and others led the charge and it was, it was achieved shouldn't 00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:43.236 have been that difficult, but it was. So it had the name and then it had 00:42:43.269 --> 00:42:50.367 to build its programs to match the name university. And 00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:54.046 I, I think the most dramatic change has been in the quality of the 00:42:54.079 --> 00:43:00.936 institution and in the emphasis on research and the rather dramatic change 00:43:00.969 --> 00:43:08.969 in the program of research in its size, in its dimensions, in its variety. 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:13.747 Mhm. This is a major research institution And a few years ago under 00:43:13.780 --> 00:43:19.186 President Corps became a research one institution. This is just absolutely 00:43:19.219 --> 00:43:24.057 amazing. There was research done in former years and some of it. Very good 00:43:24.090 --> 00:43:29.586 research. I was impressed with the quality of the faculty at the time I 00:43:29.619 --> 00:43:34.367 came. I'm impressed with the quality of the faculty Now. I think the major 00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:41.927 emphasis now is upon research more than it was at the time I came. But I 00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:48.307 see also this reaching out to the community having the institution as a 00:43:48.340 --> 00:43:55.367 force for contributing to the economy, not just America County, but 00:43:55.400 --> 00:44:01.856 throughout the state and beyond. And I think that there is 00:44:01.889 --> 00:44:06.956 will continue to be enormous growth in this institution. This, I think 00:44:06.989 --> 00:44:12.276 that the title we now favor is major Metropolitan Research University and 00:44:12.309 --> 00:44:16.197 that's what it is. And with the satellite in the east and the satellite in 00:44:16.230 --> 00:44:22.256 the west and with the prospect of thousands upon thousands more students. 00:44:22.289 --> 00:44:25.967 This is going to be, if not the largest public university in the country 00:44:26.000 --> 00:44:33.956 , one of the largest and if it has the resources and the will, there's no 00:44:33.989 --> 00:44:39.227 no stopping it about the College of law. Do you think it will continue to 00:44:39.260 --> 00:44:43.907 get bigger? You have branches of the No, I think that's not the plan. I 00:44:43.940 --> 00:44:49.396 think it will maintain the same size. We hope it will strengthen. We hope 00:44:49.429 --> 00:44:55.546 that we will ah have our special centers, the indian program and the 00:44:55.579 --> 00:45:02.467 science program continue to grow and achieve. We're not planning a major 00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:06.997 change in the number. Although there are some at the university who are 00:45:07.030 --> 00:45:12.577 mentioning a night school. I think that's being investigated. That might 00:45:12.610 --> 00:45:17.756 come. It's not something I think the law faculty would would move as a 00:45:17.789 --> 00:45:21.026 matter of prime importance, but that might come as well and that would 00:45:21.059 --> 00:45:26.606 expand the numbers. But in a different setting. What advice do you give to 00:45:26.639 --> 00:45:33.456 students coming onto campus and trying to decide about careers? 00:45:33.489 --> 00:45:38.657 Multiple advice, study hard, 00:45:38.690 --> 00:45:41.657 take a good broad 00:45:41.690 --> 00:45:44.347 education. 00:45:44.380 --> 00:45:52.380 I'm one who believes the Liberal Arts Education is preferred. 00:45:52.489 --> 00:45:57.356 Look to more than one possible 00:45:57.389 --> 00:46:03.697 career. Try and prepare yourself for more than one because very likely if 00:46:03.730 --> 00:46:08.747 you aspire to one, you may not be able to make it and it may be relegated 00:46:08.780 --> 00:46:13.646 by the change in the national scene to something that's less productive. 00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:20.347 So I think those are my words of advice to anyone coming. Mhm. Anything I 00:46:20.380 --> 00:46:24.626 didn't ask you that you wanted to tell me. I think not. I accept. I would 00:46:24.659 --> 00:46:29.876 say in answer to an earlier question. I did not expect to stay at Arizona 00:46:29.909 --> 00:46:35.327 state, but I have stayed and it has been rewarding and satisfying. I have 00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:40.256 a passion love for this place. It's a great institution and I've had a 00:46:40.289 --> 00:46:45.706 great life in my academic career. I can't imagine it being better. Very 00:46:45.739 --> 00:46:52.066 good ending anything human that I should have asked. 00:46:52.099 --> 00:47:00.099 I have a question. Yeah, I had a couple of questions. One of them was uh 00:47:00.579 --> 00:47:06.816 do you think that the law school here uh has a thrust or a, I mean a 00:47:06.849 --> 00:47:13.546 specialty or what would you, how would you describe your law school here? 00:47:13.579 --> 00:47:18.967 Aside from the special programs, we have a traditional program. It's a 00:47:19.000 --> 00:47:22.546 three year graduate program 00:47:22.579 --> 00:47:26.847 in that three years or in those three years, the students cannot 00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:31.517 specialize. They can be introduced to various aspects of the law. And 00:47:31.550 --> 00:47:34.947 those aspects are many and broad, 00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:41.367 but they are given kind of an introduction how to study law, how to do 00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:48.546 their research, how to, to be sensitive to legal issues and so on. Ah 00:47:48.579 --> 00:47:52.717 After a person graduates from law school and passes the bar, that person 00:47:52.750 --> 00:47:55.767 enters into what is called practice. And it may be practiced in many 00:47:55.800 --> 00:48:00.796 senses because we don't turn out graduates who are fully prepared and 00:48:00.829 --> 00:48:06.106 competent to step in and handle complex legal issues. No law school does 00:48:06.139 --> 00:48:10.936 that. So if, if a person wants to specialize that person is going to have 00:48:10.969 --> 00:48:16.017 to move into an area of law such as bankruptcy or family law, corporate 00:48:16.050 --> 00:48:22.166 law, tax law and learn on the job or take another degree, an advanced 00:48:22.199 --> 00:48:27.537 degree in law, like a master of laws and study that particular specialty. 00:48:27.570 --> 00:48:32.537 Uh So that's, that's the program here and added most law schools. 00:48:32.570 --> 00:48:37.227 Mhm. The only other thing I had, we've, we've tried to talk a little bit 00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:41.677 about, you know, Arizona State University is a wonderful place and there's 00:48:41.710 --> 00:48:45.686 been a lot of wonderful things, but there's been some controversy and I 00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:51.836 sort of wanted to get your from a legal perspective on, for instance, kush 00:48:51.869 --> 00:48:55.517 on the incident with kush well, how would you describe that? Okay. From, 00:48:55.550 --> 00:48:58.936 from a legal standpoint, I don't think I can add much at the university 00:48:58.969 --> 00:49:06.137 was certainly uh free to fire him for his activity. So there was not a 00:49:06.170 --> 00:49:10.626 legal question there. I think it was a public relations question and I was 00:49:10.659 --> 00:49:16.367 amazed and continually amazed at the role that athletics place, higher 00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:19.836 education, 00:49:19.869 --> 00:49:24.367 The strong feelings about it. You know, I have the same seats in the 00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:29.827 stadium that I had in 1967. I've come to the games. I've never let my 00:49:29.860 --> 00:49:33.427 tickets go. Used to have a collection in the stadium there of all the law 00:49:33.460 --> 00:49:35.997 professors would sit together. All of them have gone, but I refused to 00:49:36.030 --> 00:49:42.077 give up my seats there. Uh And when frank kush was here, The games were 00:49:42.110 --> 00:49:47.447 interesting, but kind of boring. I mean 62 7 and 49-2 and you know, now 00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:50.677 we're losing more games, but they're a little more interesting and kush 00:49:50.710 --> 00:49:57.126 was fine. He was a good coach. Did well. I was amazed to find out that his 00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:00.497 firing had an impact on the law school. And I found that because we sent 00:50:00.530 --> 00:50:04.936 out letters on our annual fund and I got back some of them that said, I 00:50:04.969 --> 00:50:07.867 refused to give another dime to the law school because of what you did to 00:50:07.900 --> 00:50:12.057 frank kush. Now, wait a minute. Law school didn't have nothing to do with 00:50:12.090 --> 00:50:17.046 frankly. Oh yes. So what's that? So you got blamed for it? I got blamed 00:50:17.079 --> 00:50:20.617 for it. Sure. But when people are giving money, they are sensitive to 00:50:20.650 --> 00:50:24.256 certain things and athletics is one for many. I've always thought it was 00:50:24.289 --> 00:50:29.617 ironic that after the firing and everything that well, I think there was 00:50:29.650 --> 00:50:34.896 recognition after the emotions died down and years past, the wonderful 00:50:34.929 --> 00:50:38.747 contribution he had made. So now we have the statue out front, we have the 00:50:38.780 --> 00:50:43.927 frank kush field and he did. He brought the issue football program to 00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:49.086 national prominence. There's no question about it. He did. And and we owe 00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:54.956 him that that debt, those who have come after the coaches have inherited a 00:50:54.989 --> 00:51:01.146 program that he helped build and they've enhanced it and refined it. But I 00:51:01.179 --> 00:51:08.006 think, you know, I like frank kush when when he was was fired. I thought 00:51:08.039 --> 00:51:13.769 the university did the right thing. It's an interesting chapter.