like to identify on the tape. Um, but this is an interview for the living
history video project for Arizona State University retirees association.
And I'm liam Stephenson doing the interview. And our videographer today is
Manny Garcia and today is monday january 30th of 2000 and six. And we're
at the visitor information center of a issue at rural road and Apache
boulevard. And I like to let you introduce yourself. Why don't you give us
your full name? Well, my name is Eugene Lombardi And I live here in Tempe
Arizona. I haven't since 1965. Okay, I'd like to start with some
background. Why don't you tell me when you were born and where you were
born? Well, I was born on July 7, 1923. In town, I should say, a suburb of
Pittsburgh called north braddock pennsylvania. And uh My parents have been
here in the United States about 2, 3 years. And uh we lived in a little, a
small apartment evidently and my father was a tailor and commuted to work
in, in north braddock also, I had to stop and think in a long time. Why
did your parents come to the United States? Where did they come from? Well
, both my mother and father are from a town in Italy called the castle
Cipriano. And actually the main reason that my father came over, it was
because he refused to be a fascist. And in fact was in the First World War
and
it was was being sought by by the fascist party to I don't know what, so
that my father had to escape and went through the way of France and spain
and finally to the United States, I went to Cleveland where my mother's
brothers were living. And from there he made his way to Pittsburgh. So
they were they married before that, he came over secretly, married before
they came over. And when she came over, they got married again here. And
um, were you the first child
I was? Uh, my sister didn't come along until uh, two years later,
was it just the two of, you know, and I have a brother to who's now living
in Houston texas. What was that area of Pittsburgh like at that time? Well
, of course, I didn't stay there much beyond my high school days when I
went away to schools, but all I remember was a very dirty area, much smoke
soot difficult to breathe. Uh, places looked rather decrepit and unsightly
, and that's just the way I remember it. And then when I went back after
coming back from the, my, my war years, I couldn't get over what had
happened. Everybody had washed up the town is all clean and everything. So
talk about about as growing up as a boy, would you have any favorite
experiences or things that you would stand out in your memory? Well,
my dad was was a very a strict person, he wanted, he liked being in the
United States and he didn't want us to do anything that would make things
look rather negatively towards us or towards the country. So it was a very
strict upbringing.
I do remember my, my younger years, I mean before six where we had to be
very proper and we didn't have much money. We had to be very easy on the
expenditures. So it was a rather, as I look back now, a rather difficult
upbringing, but yet it was not an unhappy one. It was one where I felt
happy to be alive and my folks provided very well for us there for me at
the time, of course,
I look upon it as a happy childhood, rather strict, But it was a happy one.
And you pretty much were living in, in the city, not you weren't out in
the country or that's right. We were in uh, as I remember, it was at the
foot of the George, Westinghouse Bridge where there was a little little
home that and we occupied a few rooms. Had rented a few rooms there, as I
was told later because I don't remember that. And uh, it was only until, I
guess we were there only until
probably The year after I was born until 1924,
when my father had enough money to put down on a little house to be built
in swiss veil pennsylvania and that's right. Really spent most of my time.
That's a nice name, Swiss filled it. Like it was very nice. It was a very
high level town by high level, I mean people were, we're not run of the
mill, uh coal miner type or steelworker type, something like that, They
were white collar people. And my father being a tailor, wanted to
eventually open a tailor shop of his own in some place and he thought that
might be a nice area to do that in and which it did turn out to be very
nice. Was it like a suburb or was it was it was a suburb of Pittsburgh, I
would say a little farther away from the core of Pittsburgh than say Tempe
is the paintings, But it was about a nine mile dr with lots of little
towns in between,
was it Swiss dale, was it Swiss people or was it other italian? Uh no, it
was a very good mixture, it was a swiss veil and, and I don't know why it
was called Swiss Rail, I have no recollection of it being, you know, one
type of people or another, they were mostly white collar, There were some
people there who worked in this steel mill offices, so it wasn't that the
, the people that were in swiss veil ones who worked in the mills or
worked in the coal mines or anything like that, you know,
a good middle class town
um do you remember things about growing up there, was it the kind of place
where you wrote your bicycle or Yes, uh there was lots of bike riding done
then, although we couldn't afford a bicycle in my early years evidently,
so I walked to school, The elementary school was just beyond our backyard
, up the hill there was of a million elementary school. And I went there
of course for my the first six years. Then I had to go to a junior high
school which was about a mile away. And high school was just a few blocks
away from there and I walked both ways. In fact came home for lunch and
went back within the hour. So it's no fooling around and even walked the
railroad tracks so that I can get there faster.
Were you a good party? You're tapping your a microphone? I'm sorry, down
here and it's your butt, That's what it is. Yeah. Okay.
Sure.
Um What was school like in those days? Was it a small school or? Uh the
high school? Okay. Well the elementary school was was a small school that
had, as I say, the sixth grades and I doubt if there are more than one or
two sections of each grade. The junior high was much larger. Of course I
felt like it was a bigger school. It may not have been bigger, but it felt
bigger. And the high school I imagine was 7-800 students Of the Upper
three grades.
Were you a good student? Well, of course I
yes, I'm a I had good grades and I had no problems with getting along with
the teacher. I was rather serious. Uh, I wanted to succeed and uh, as did
my parents, uh, they wanted me to be happy to be in the situation is that
we were in and And uh I did my very best to get good grades and I did
because as a result that scholarships came forth, graduating in the upper
5% of the class. I think it was, what were your favorite subjects? Well
besides music,
I like the sciences, I like physics and chemistry. I enjoyed english as
much as I as I had to, I might add. And and that my first years at home
were uh with my parents speaking italian so that I knew very few words and
in english when I went to school at least appears to me now that it was
very few. I'm sure I had, my dad would pick up quite a few words in his
work. He worked for a uh, what should I say, a men's store that handled
suits and he was the tailor for them. And, and I imagine it was difficult
communications there at the store for a while for a few years and uh, a
word here and a word there, my mother seemed to have less trouble and
picking up the language and spoke eventually very very well and wrote
beautifully and,
but we in order to get points across or in our haste, we communicated in
italian and uh so that I was speaking both when I went to school. It was
rather difficult, I hear, I didn't know it didn't seem difficult to me
then, but that going to school and communicating with the teacher with the
other students so little by little by, there was more english and less
italian being spoken at home because my parents don't understand more and
, and so would I Mhm. So it was, it was nice and I never regretted those
years because I've, I've used those italian terminology, terminology a lot
in my profession and music and uh it came naturally be pronouncing
correctly and all that because of the, those early early years that I had
, it's interesting some of the other people we've talked to had the same
experiences speaking languages at home. I don't think Children today very
often have that um do you remember the struggle to learn english in school
or was it a struggle or No, I don't, you know, strange as it may seem, you
know, I remember lots of things about my very early years, but I don't
remember problems in in school as far as understanding the teacher or
being able to communicate with my fellow students. So it must have been an
easy transition for me I guess. And it wasn't much of a transition because
after all, I was born there and I was hearing english all the time, but
learning italian, it just seemed to come naturally because that's what my
folks always spoke.
You said your father wanted to open his own tailor shop. Did he eventually
do that? Yes, he did. He did open we, the home that we built in swiss veil.
It was a brick home that had a, a large porch in the front and eventually
eventually gradually built the part of the porch into a sun porch. Uh and
then that became the tailor shop. And I go back to look at it now and I
just can't believe that this tailor shop that was probably maybe 10 ft by
15 or 18, uh, not much bigger than my office was in school. And I figured
how could he have had a tailor shop in there, But but he did open the
tailor shop and evidently had a good reputation because lots of people
came by and had clothes made or repaired,
refitted, so to speak, you know, taken in or let out. And for a while of
course he had to do some work for the taylor that, I mean the men's store
that he was working for. And in the evenings he would work in his tailor
shop, so to speak. And it gradually grew to the point where he needed more
room and so down the cellar, there was a great big table that was used as
his tailoring table laying out the material and cutting out
the pieces to make his main thrust or ability was coat maker. He had a
gold medal in from the sartorial school in Italy in coat making. And that
I guess was the hardest part of tailoring or sartorial
endeavor. And he made lots of coats, I mean for women as well as men and
all the time whistled through everything. And I think that's probably
where
I received some of my love for music because my dad loved opera and he
just would just whistle away. And I think he knew every aria from every
opera that was well known and just continued to whistle all the time. You
know, happy in his work sewing away. Whistling is kind of a lost art. Did
you learn to whistle? No, I didn't. I mean I whistle but not like he did.
He could, he had a tremendous range and and he had all the nuances and was
able to control his pitch and everything, yet knew nothing about music.
Mhm. Did you learn to do some of the tailoring? Did he teach you?
No, my mother, as I said, it was a very just was an excellent seamstress
and she did a lot of the fine work for my father so that he could get more
done. He would do all the cutting and all that. Maybe she would do some of
them putting together the delegates stitching the cuffing and things like
that. No, I ended up being the delivery boy uh from a very early age when
I was finally lucky enough to get a bicycle that was the delivery boy and
I'd go down the street and they all used to tell me that you used to be
down there with one hand up here holding a hanger with clothes on it and
driving the bike, you know, rain or shine and not almost with snow too. So
it was, I remember that I do remember having to work because it was
necessary. My father would well tell me that it's important that you
participate because we have very little money, especially then those days
it would give me a nickel to go across the street to get some bologna. So
we'd have something to eat for lunch and a nickel, but quite a bit of it.
So was that your first job? Yes, yes, definitely. Uh, in fact, I didn't
have any jobs beyond the tailor shop. There was a plenty to do and whether
it was sweeping up, whether it was eventually working the pressing machine
had large pressing machines where
they were all steam machines and I would do depressing. Yes. So you
mentioned your music? When did you, other than your father's whistling?
When did you get involved with music? Well, it's a, it's a strange and
unusual beginning. Um, there was no reason for me to be in music or to go
into music. As I mentioned, my father was a tailor that makes made new
clothes and he had one customer who came in and Chilation material and
ordered two suits to be made. And
over a period of time the suits were done completed, ready to be picked up
and and the man was seen to be reluctant to come after them. And and
finally my father put some pressure on him to, you know, I need to get
these suits out of here. I mean they're made for you. And he came and said
, I, the reason I've been hesitating is that I can't pay for them. I mean
I've lost my job or have been out of work for quite a while and he said, I
feel bad because that material was chosen and it was cut up to fit me. And
he said, I just don't have any money to pay you. And sadly he said, the
only thing that I can do is uh is maybe offer you something that will help
pay for that material. And my father says it was very easy going man and
he was one of us pitfalls, I guess it was too easy sometimes he would do
things for nothing because people couldn't afford it. And this man said, I
have an old violin,
he said, I don't know how good it is, he said, but I'll give it to you and
and surely it'll be worth enough. Excuse me, surely be worth enough to to
pay for the material. And my father is in the world, okay, took the violin
and it went up in the attic and 11 day just before I was starting school
actually
he said you know it would be nice if you learned to play the violin, What
was the violin? I didn't know what a violin was and he said we have this
violin up in the attic and it would be nice if you learned that you could
learn all those italian operas that I sing and and uh he really had lots
of ideas for me And you know what could I do but go along. I was a nice
obeying obedient Italian child, what should I do? six And I remember going
on the streetcar to a place in Pittsburgh where we signed up with a a
violin school, it's called the new England School of violin playing and
I had my own violin came in with it and and of course they didn't think it
was any good and that I actually use one of theirs and that's how I
started.
And of course my dad was just so pleased and every time he'd go to to
north braddock to the tailor shop that he was mean to the men's store that
he was working, he'd stop at the five and 10 cent store where they sold
sheet music and he'd come home with this italian opera aria that he had
picked up and he didn't put my stand here play it
and little by little, I did learn to play I in, I enjoyed it and I was
happy doing it and uh and became evidently became good at it at the time.
When do you remember first playing in the public or well in the school,
if if we can call that public as far as playing solos?
Well, I guess maybe when I was nine or 10, my earliest recollection of, of
playing for people and being
applauded for what I was doing. So I would say that that's my earliest
recollection earlier recollections were not always happy ones like every
child I wanted to play too and I'd have to practice and my father was a
stickler about me practicing. In fact to the point that I wasn't
practicing very much and just beyond the tailor shop was our, our living
room and uh, but it was closed off and people would come in and say, oh my
, where's that music coming from? He says, that's my son, he won't
practice very much. So I have to have them practice where I can hear him.
So
there were some pressure days. In fact, I even had one happy now, but not
too happy at the time recollection where I was supposed to practice in
half an hour. And uh,
and I guess I stepped on on something that would be high enough where I
could reach the clock and turn to the head, I practiced my half hour
except I slipped off and fell and he came in here, what are you doing? And
I said, um I was fixing the clock,
but
happy now and I think about it, but very resourceful of Oh yes, right. The
violins are pretty difficult, interesting instruments to start on. That's
what I was told afterwards. And evidently, as I say, the Good Lord is with
me, probably everything worked out. I was able to assimilate the
information and produce it on the violin and and do it with not too much
effort. So I don't know how that could happen. But it did happen that way
by all intents and purposes and understanding of other people's
experiences. It's the worst thing you could do is just say that thrust it
in your hand and say here you're going to learn to play this and the
chances for success will be very low. But this just happened. Yeah, no
other musical experience at all. None whatsoever. Not even I just heard
music. I didn't even know what it was. It just sounds,
Did you ever play that violin that he got? Oh yes, I did. Yes. That violin
, the violin was not as I say, or as they said, it was not a real good
violin, but it turned out to be better than the one that the new England
School of violin playing. There was a funny thing about that was You
signed a contract for a year to take 52 lessons one A week at a dollar a
lesson. And And then if you completed all 52 lessons, you've got to keep
the violence. Well, you think Gee, that's wonderful. Except what kind of a
violent could it be other than the cigar box without the cigar where you
got 52 lessons. But here's this instrument and you got it free, so to
speak. So eventually I did play on that violin until uh, oh, I'd say until
my junior high when I felt the violin wasn't very good as far as school
playing because I was sitting first chair and in the school orchestra. And
uh, there would always be some solos within the music. And so that's where
we got a better instrument than Not. Very much better. Maybe $100, You
know, in $100 violin is, is much like something made out of paper. It's
just not very valuable or very good.
Well, tell me about it. They played in the school orchestra. What kind of
an orchestra did school have? How did you get involved in that? Well, the
, the elementary orchestra,
It was very, very small. I mean just uh, I say five or six people in the
strings that is. And, and I was one of them in the junior high. It was, it
was a much larger group of 25 or 30. And, and I was fortunate enough to be
the principal violinist in the first chair.
and in high school it was quite a bit larger, I'd say 40,
there and that's where I got most of any orchestral experience that I had
before I went to college. It was just through that, through that orchestra.
I was fortunate enough to be advanced
enough to be chosen each of my four high school years, the last of the
junior high and the three upper high school to, to attend what they called
All State Orchestra, I don't know if you've heard of that term, They have
it here and in the, you know, the phoenix area where the best people can
be chosen to audition for the all state Orchestra and it's made up of
people from all over the state, the best people and a guest conductor
would be brought in and it would be a three day event and I was fortunate
enough to be proficient enough on the instrument to be one of the all
staters every year that I was there. And in fact even better than that
first chair also. So I felt as I look back that my education must have
been pretty good along the lines of music uh, to be able to reach that
level. And with not a lot of competition there, usually competition might
bring out the best in in you, if you have anything left it here, the
desire to be better. But there wasn't a lot of competition, but I had a
very caring and understanding music teacher, Carrie Hambleton, I still
remember a little redheaded woman, very feisty and uh and we had some good
music students there and there was one girl there lois cost who was my
accompanist and we even ended up in the same college together. So she was
also my company's through who college undergraduate and
those experiences I looked back and I know that they gave me a good
foundation in music, very responsible. I think it was due to that kind of
teaching that I received, that I was able to get the scholarships that I
received in the future.
Um But at what point did you decide that your music would be your career
or did you decide that?
Well, that's ah a little unhappy part of of my life as I look back unhappy
in that my father, I was very pleased with the way I was getting along
with the violin and what I was producing and the accolades that I received
and all that. But when it came time to thinking about going to school to
college, he was mhm, very much against me using music as a major, I had a
very fine violent teacher, private teacher who was the concert master of
the Pittsburgh Symphony, a very fine teacher too. And but he was rather
poor according to my father, you know, he says, look at mr lucero, he's
he's not making very much money and his music as fine a violinist as he is.
And and sometimes you can't even afford to pay for the the clothes that
are being repaired or cleaned and I do it for nothing for him. He says,
you don't want that. He said you have very good grades. And I had a
scholarship in in sciences, I was very good in chemistry and physics. And
I got a scholarship to go to Carnegie Tech with Carnegie Institute of
Technology in Pittsburgh, which is now the Carnegie was called. And uh and
also I had about a dozen violent scholarships
and that's what I wanted to do. And he said, please don't don't take care
of violent scholarship. He said you can keep playing your violin, he says
, but to learn to be you don't get to be a chemist or be an engineer or
physicist or something. He said you can make a better living and be
happier in life and not be like me here I am, I have to I have to work all
day and come home. And so until midnight and get up early again too, so I
can walk to to where I I have to work and and I didn't want to make my
father unhappy of course. And so I accepted the Carnegie Tech scholarship
started off in summer school and I of course I took a lot of the courses
that I needed to preliminary and all that in depth during those high
school years I say I was the presser at home and I was a delivery boy at
home. And so that was all the life that I really knew and and then going
to school like that. And after I guess after the first summer session,
going into the summer session, I told my father, you know, I'm just so
unhappy. I said I have picked up my violin since I started school because
it's so busy. I said then I know you don't want me to to go into music. I
said, why don't I just stay in the shop with you and I'll just continue
being your presser and and deliver clothes and you know, build up the
business and things like that. Well, he was very unhappy over that
decision not to the point of being mean, I mean, but he was just unhappy
that I would, I still want to do something like that where there was no
hope as far as he was concerned. And I would say by the middle of the
first semester, he said, well why don't you see if one of those
scholarships are still available. And of course I, I said those
scholarships are for the beginning of the year. I doubt if there is
anything available. And I had some prestigious schools who uh, to Oberlin
Shenandoah School of Music too,
not the Carnegie Tech, unfortunately, I don't know, but there was one
school I contacted that still had this violin scholarship available
Westminster College in New Wilmington pennsylvania.
So my mother and I went up to the, we called and he said yes, that there
was one. And but I, he said I'd have to hear you in person to make sure
and make a long story short. I was accepted immediately and uh started
Westminster had to hurriedly gather information that I had missed that
first part of the semester. But I was offered a full scholarship in, in
the music because of violin playing and of course I couldn't afford room
and board. And so my room, I received free as a result of, of being the
janitor in the conservatory of music. And what I had to do every day was
after 10 o'clock, I had to sweep out all the practice rooms, clean up,
empty the waste baskets, clean up the rooms and dust off the piano And
which would take me about, I think there were 20 rooms take me until about
midnight. And then for my meals, I was living in a freshman dorm. They
made me a waiter in the dormitory so that I got my meals free by being a
waiter. And I got my room free by being a janitor and went to school
because of my music scholarship. So it didn't cost my, my folks any money
, which they really didn't have, they didn't have it. And um, and my
father was happy that I was enjoying it and that I was
progressing well with good grades, but he still said, you know, it would
have been better if you could have gone into engineering or into science
where you would have made a decent living. What was it about that a few
weeks you spent in this in the Carnegie Institute in Science that you
dislike so much? Well, mainly I didn't like because I wasn't doing what I
loved, which was playing the violin, I loved playing the music. Uh the
other thing was that being a summer school was very concentrated and had
to go to class every day and it took up a lot of time to do all my
homework and uh I just felt that I was being torn away from the part of
life that I enjoyed to do something where I was satisfying my parents, but
I wasn't completely happy. I didn't see any results. And I just couldn't
see a life as you know, as a scientist, not a scientist, but I mean in in
mathematics science, chemistry at per se or Physics. So my life had just
changed. Just just turned over what I was doing before I was not doing at
all. I was doing something that just because I had a couple of classes in
high school and that I was a straight a students and highly recommended by
the physics teacher when it came time to apply for schools that I ended up
with a scholarship and I dreaded going into the department chairs office
to say that I was going to have to pull out or that I was going to
withdraw, give up my scholarship and all that. But I just felt I was taken
out of the part of life that I enjoyed offered to just come back to it and
and my father felt that that wasn't a good way to solve the problem and so
relented and allowed me to progress to the kind of life that I think I was
going to enjoy, which I have of course made that decision pretty quickly.
Yes, I I did. And I've and I've never regretted it. Things seemed to work
out. I mean, there were problems of course, but they're not insurmountable
and I was glad to have been able to pursue it. Well, tell me a little bit
about the years you spent then. Did you go? four years in the music school
? Yes. I went to Westminster in 1941
ah
When the sad days was coming running down two steps hurriedly to get to
the, to the cabin to the yeah, cafeteria is what we had at first at
Jeffrey's Hall, the freshman dorm where I was one of the waiters. Somebody
said, Pearl Harbor has been bombed. And I said, oh, come on, get out here.
And I just kept running down to get down because I had to wait on tables
and two and so
everybody of course was being very patriotic and enlisting at that time.
So that was my, during my first year and I enlisted as a and accepted as
an aviation cadet. And so that I went to Westminster, I wasn't called
until 1943 in February to go to the service and go to my air force
assignment so that I had a year and a half of Westminster and I was in the
service until Uh June of 1946, 3 years and three months I think it was
when I went back to Westminster and then went to summer school straight
through. And and got my degree program at that time from Westminster
graduated there in 1940 eight january
and I I felt that I wanted to get my masters degree too. So I applied to
Columbia University in January 1948 And was accepted and got my degree by
August of 1948. So I went to that intercession that we're between
semesters and then the full semester, which would be the second semester
and then pre summer school, two Summer Sessions and Post Summer School, I
was able to get all my 32 hours of of my graduate program. And and also as
a reflection of the training that I had received, not only at Westminster
, but in the high schools, all the entries tests that I had to take in
order to get into advanced classes I passed off, which they, they said
they couldn't believe that there had to be something wrong because people
don't all pass pass off their entry exams and have to take bonehead
courses and in certain courses. And so that's why I was able to do
everything in just about 3/4 of a year Because I had a contract to teach
in midland pennsylvania in the September of 1948, so I had to be done
period, I had to have my master's degree. And so as I recall that I was
the only one that had ever done that started in january and graduated in
august um why don't you go back and talk a little bit about those warriors.
Um you know, when did you actually enlist?
Well I had listened just shortly after uh the war, see this was December
of 41 and I think by March or april
the different services had their recruiters all over the schools and and
they didn't miss my school and and I was all just gung ho to go and I,
yeah, I guess I had planned to enlist just any army and the army Air force
, which is what it was called, then
also had recruiters and talked me into becoming an aviation cadet because
they like to have college students going to cadet training and then you
either became a pilot to bombardier or navigator
And then I was called in February of 40 43 and uh I was sent to Miami
Beach for my basic training And uh and I started in the pilot program and
I was about two thirds of the way through the pilot program when they, so
I changed the rules, so to speak so that I was a half inch too short for
pilot because of the necessary size, leg and everything else that was
needed. And so I changed over to Bombardier School, which is what I
graduated in.
I had to go through to Kent State University for all my my courses and
navigation and and more science and uh and so all that time now I'm not
playing the violin anymore. And that was then it was assigned to san
Antonio Aviation Cadet Center to do more, more work. And uh while while
they're san Antonio sack as it was called had a big music program. The man
who was in charge of the special services dr Hugh thomas who was formerly
conductor of excuse me, conductor of a coral group as well as the head of
the voice department was the commanding officer of the Special services,
talked me into playing in the small orchestras they had with this coral
group and I said, well that would be great. You know, I stood with my
classes usually by 4:00 and so I was available in the evenings. So I ended
up doing Bombardier School actually not Bombardier then completely because
Bombardier School was in Ellington field which is and another post another
bass and okay doing both of them together. So I was keeping up my music or
getting back into it. I think I'm playing my violin and doing some copy
work and they had radio program in san Antonio that went all over the
country was called the, the Skyline Patrol. And it was an hour of music
where they had a stage band, a string section, the chorus and the
comedians and it's the real variety show. And so I was enjoying that a lot
as I was going through through Bombardier training as well as pilot
training
to make a long story short. The, the, I did graduate in the Bombardier at
the school and was ready to be commissioned and I've been doing so much in
the music
and there was getting ready to be shipped out after the, after we were
going to be
graduated, so to speak. You know, we would get our commission and all that
and and there were problems in the entertainment along the entertainment
lines overseas with the um I can't even recall what they called the
program where the people would, oh troops would go to, I mean, but groups
of entertainers would go to the troops and entertain them overseas. And
the USO is what I was trying to think of and I guess things were getting
rather uh naughty, the girls thought that the men wanted to see scantily
clad women and and off color jokes and and not so much entertainment as
far as music or anything else. And we in san Antonio
A lot of the bombardiers by 1940 three in 1940. For which is about when I
was, things were getting a little better over in the japanese. Uh, and the
, all the islands in between the United States and Japan where they needed
less bombardiers.
And so we were doing more and more entertaining. And there were 10 of us
who were cadets and had been bombardier's as well as pilots
who had just sort of formed a little group and entertainment group. And we
went into the hospitals and entertained people in their rooms or groups in
the hospital and
were evidently successful enough that they, that we stayed as a unit that
the special services. Well, when it came time to going overseas, I said,
well uh dr thomas or captain thomas at the time, You thomas said,
how would you like the idea about going over as an entertainment unit? Are
you kidding? I said, we're bombardiers. And uh, he says yes, but the need
is lessons now. You know, you, you really could do more good for the war
effort by entertaining the soldiers and right now they are more amenable
to to seeing their own entertain them than to have some of these people
who just come in and uh do a few dances and a lot of off color jokes and
and dances uh and and not really doing too much entertaining and while in
our entertainment group we had, There were 10 of us, one of them, the
guitarist was, I get started with Mary Kaye trio at the time was a very
well known trio. And uh Peter lind Hayes was the comedian. Uh I don't know
who to compare him with now uh like but he was the comedian of the, of the
day, Peter lind Hayes and The accordion player was the former accordionist
of the three sons a trio. And you know, we just had 10 people and here I
was a classically trained violinist but played the pop too. And uh and
then four of us got together and we formed a vocal quartet so that we
could sing anyhow. We were all formerly cadets. And uh the cadets, there
were called gadgets. I don't know how that came about. G A D J E T S. And
so we called ourselves our group, the grounded gadgets. And we made quite
a name for ourselves. And I was just so surprised that we were all
surprised that
the doctor tom keep calling him dr thomas. Captain thomas had approached
the the the general of the sack to appeal to Secretary of War Paterson
that this group of people, which is an unusual group That has been giving
shows in hospital 78 times a day and being successful at it And they were
all Bombardier's graduates. But but the need is not there anymore. And uh
what would you think about them going overseas as a unit group and well
that they weren't so sure that that was a good idea. But finally relented
and said, but only one basis that they'd have to relinquish their
commission and maybe we'd give him uh
maybe a corporal or a sergeant rank and go over as a, as a unit as well as
it turned out. That's what we did. We decided that we since it was, we
were just gonna be laying around and who knows what we were going to do.
We'd already been to hawaii and back because there was nothing to do
there. We were at Hickam field and stationed there and nothing to do. We
just sat around so we just gave programs there. So we came back to the
States and and grew regroup to the point where they assigned us a pilot
assigned us an airplane, bought us material equipment and we went over as
an entertainment group. So here it is. I started off as a bomber dear. I
went through all the training, I went through most of the pilot training,
I went through all of the bombardier training, ready to be commissioned,
ended up being an entertainer and as a result of our entertaining, we
covered, they claim about 30,000 miles with our we went, we hit every
island Guam Tinian SaiPan Iwo Jima, Okinawa Petaluma, I mean just every
one of them and back and forth crisscrossing And just gave as many as
seven he chose a day. We call them shows and we just and and for all our
efforts we received the Bronze star all of us, they thought that we had
done so much for the effort and all that. So those are my glorious
fighting days, so to speak, ended up in Japan in Tokyo, stayed in the
Cairo hotel right across the water from the Emperor's palace and gave lots
of shows there and went to Okinawa. Um we were there of course in Tokyo
and Yokohama and and all those different areas and give lots of programs
and radio programs too. So you actually saw more of the war than you would
if you were actually a pilot or Yes, definitely, that's right. I did do
some substitute bombardier work. It wasn't bombardier though, it was
dropping care packages but we did by dropping them, you know, via
parachute uh where there were camps of of prisoners still and I don't know
how we were allowed to do that without being shot down or anything like
that. But we did, we were in Okinawa and well not in Iwo Jima Jima, our
camp was right at the foot of Mount Suribachi and not a nice place.
There's just too many dead bodies still in the caves, you know.
So you must have had some interesting experiences. They're going to all
those places very well interesting. Uh, in lots of ways. One time we were
in uh
wasn't a hurricane, but any other art are all our concept huts were all
blown away and we had to get under the floors to save our equipment and
ourselves and, and only to come out and find nothing left but the floors
of all the buildings, lots of nice experiences with the, with the
audiences. I don't know that we were ever booed. The only problem is we
did have that there were still some snipers that were still not in the
hills and our backdrop that had our logo and everything on it had bullet
holes in it and you know, we're being shot at. But I think the nice thing
was to have people come up from the audience that were your former high
school or college mate or people that knew people that knew us and and we
just have a great time. And the navy was always so nice to us. They always
had the good food and they would take us to their ship and we would get
ice cream, wow. Never had ice cream in the army, the army because we were
part of the army, not the air force and our food was not as good. And so
yes, we had lots of nice experiences and we would play for officers clubs
where they actually would pay us Give us money, you know, which I don't
think it was allowed, but they always ended up saying dividing, say, well
here we've been given $400 and which divided among you all,
we had good experiences, not your typical war or what you got. How did you
keep that name? The grounded gadgets for that whole time that we were
together? Yes. And when it came time to that we had, then you amassed
points. You have got, I think two points for every month that you were
overseas and one point for every time for every month of just being in the
states. And you had to have, I think when it was time for us to graduate,
we had had to have 88 points. And so by, by february, I guess it was, we
had all achieved our 88 points and we could be sent home and they
presented a mhm. An idea to us is how would you like to just stay together
, not not be discharged, stay together and maybe go off into china to, to
give programs too. And you know, we've been doing this for so long. It
seemed to us, uh and all those shows and we weren't worn down or anything
like that, but it was, you know, it should be nice to get home and and all
that. And a lot of us had broke, our college days have been splintered, so
to speak. We had
all at least a year and a half or two years of college and we wanted to
get our degrees and so we opted to not go. And there was another group
that was following much along the lines that we were and so they got to go
and they never made it. Their plane went down.
So again another blessing from the bottom of it.
We we made a good decision and so I was back in school by by late March
and just sort of picking up the late long lost strings. Are there any
films or recordings of you? I have recordings. They were all at that time
of course in the dark ages. And they had these platters. They call them
shellac platters where they you cut your own record and they're not much
good beyond maybe a dozen plays because they were would wear out. So I
have those and some of those live re recorded onto tape. And then now the
tape is getting to the point which so if there's anything left that I can
put on the C. D. I think I will because my my son keeps getting asking me
to do something about those and you got to preserve them. I'm sure some of
your performances were probably filmed too weren't they? They must have
been I never saw them. I never did see them and I don't know how if the
if the films or the tv programs could be could have been re showing to
other people in the States. I don't know,
well that sounds like quite a, quite an experience. So your group just
broke up and always your separate ways. We all went our separate ways.
The guitarist who went back to to his sisters, his sister mary. Kay, his
name was norman kehui. It was Hawaiian, but they went by k because nobody
could remember chi hui and and evidently they were so successful that he
amassed a fortune in las Vegas and buying up land and and the our
announcer when became back to the States and ended up being an announcer
and one of the large stations in Minneapolis. Peter lind Hayes of course
went back into the, into the comedian routine on radio and tv and we were
all going to get together one time, but we could never, in fact, I think
it was norman who had a dollar bill and he said, let's all sign this
dollar bill. He said, I'm going to cut it up in 10 pieces. He says, each
one of us gets a piece, he says one day let's get together, put the bill
together and spend it. Big spenders. We never did. We all have our, I
guess all have our little pieces that just,
it really is. I think it's kind of sad to me, People probably passed on by
now you came back from the military determined to go back to school. Yes.
G I benefits by then, correct. That was a nice thing, Very nice about that
a little bit. Well the G. I. Uh as a result of that I had so many
semesters of schooling available to me. And so I naturally took advantage
of it and um I was able to finish my undergraduate work and it paid for
all of my my graduate my master's degree. And I think it just about came
out right where I had used up my my G. I. Bill of rights. By the time I
received my master's degree, you shouldn't have to be a janitor. No, no in
fact, well the only thing that I did while I was at Columbia, my violin
teacher was at the time a very well known pedagogue uh and written quite a
few methods for the violin George. Born off his name and
he had many manuscripts that had to be uh transcribed written on so they
could be copied to sell. And all my years in the Air Force with this music
radio program where I was one of the copyists, in fact became head copyist.
And uh I developed quite a good uh ability to to write music on you know
on the paper. And and so
dr born off said I'll tell you what he said, I'd like to hire you with
your manuscript ability. He said I have to submit something to publishers.
And uh and if if it can be submitted in a in a state where the manuscript
is very clear, it'll save setting up etcetera, etcetera. He says, and I'll
pay you a penny a measure.
But it was amazing how many thousands and thousands of majors there were.
And so I was able to uh, to make enough to at least pay for my food. It
was just very, very nice and nice and handy. So that's the only thing that
I did during my master's work
I was living in, I had rented a bedroom, in an apartment, in an apartment
building. And uh, nice kindly elderly lady who rented this room to me. And
I didn't mind my practicing in the room as long as it wasn't before, so
and so, and after so, and so, um, and I had to had to do something like
that because at Columbia in new york things are so crowded that there were
very few practice rooms. In fact we would practice outside. We would go to
the top floor of Teachers College saying there would be like a roof area
with brick,
the part that sort of completed the building, but yet it was just sort of
an empty spot. And there were people standing sitting all over the place,
we're standing with a music stand there practicing their trumpet, their
clarinet there, the violin etcetera. But what could you do in the
wintertime? And so luckily this lady was was agreeable. In fact, I'd even
gone to a pawn shop and I found a violin that it was missing the box. I
mean it had the form of a violin, a place to put your strings play it only
you could hear it under your ear but you couldn't hear it beyond say you,
you know, and it certainly wouldn't go through the bedroom wall so I could
practice still 10, at night and not be heard. And all I had to do was
really work on my tone during the day. This because you couldn't do
anything with your tone, you could listen to pitch, you could practice
your technique and things like that. But uh that was the only time that I
was able to do any, any kind of work there without copying in order to pay
for. And in fact it was one of his also doctor Barnabas, very good friend
who was a soprano and it was sort of an understudy in the,
in the met and she offered to cook meals or I could eat meals with her if
I paid her a certain amount. So it was a one way for her to make a little
money and certainly I could get home cooked meals too. So my pennies,
bought quite a few meals, pennies a measure. Um Why were you so determined
to get a master's degree? The school system that I was in demanded that,
that I had to have a graduate degree, not just the bachelors if I didn't
get the master's degree, I would only, they would only give me one year,
then I would have to be in a program where I was getting a graduate degree.
School district, correct? Yes. And job lined up. I did, I guess I had the
job lined up about six months before I got my degree and that's why I
impressed upon my Columbia professors that it is imperative that I have
everything completed by the end of that because if I don't, then they will
negate the contact. Was that always your goal to teach? Well, yes, I well
know, obviously I wanted to be a big concert violinist, you know, and um
there just wasn't a lot of call for symphony orchestras were hiring, but
they weren't making very much just like here. My teacher was constant
master of the Pittsburgh Symphony. The Pittsburgh Symphony at that time
was not a, you know, a world class orchestra is a very fine orchestra, but
not world class. And even those people, here's a man who's sitting in the
principal chair, probably the highest paid person in the, still couldn't
afford to, did you say let the symphony work be his, his livelihood. He
still had to teach privately. His wife had to teach piano privately. And
uh and he still couldn't afford to say get his clothes clean all the time
or his cuffs. Uh you know, his pants shortened and things like that. So
it was impressed upon me that you know, you better not plan on this unless
you just start really outstanding to the point that you can bump somebody
to get their job and so you better protect yourself by getting a music
education as well as performance degree, which is what I did, which is
what I advised my students until I quit teaching that you better protect
yourself both ways. Why did you choose Colombia to get your? But my, my
music education teacher at Westminster, it was a Columbia graduate and she
just raid about the professors always quoted professors in her class and
she says, oh if you ever get a chance to be with dr Mursal or something
like that, you just love the man, he's just such a warm person and and you
can just listen to him for hours as he expounds upon the philosophy of
education and what you should impart and you're, you know, you're contact
with students. And so I felt, see that sounds like heaven. I I should
really try to get in there and she did her best and recommended me and
they accepted me. And and at the time the teachers college of Columbia
University was the place to go to get your degree if you, if you could, if
you could get in. And I was very fortunate that I was able to get in there
, what was new york like At that time in the late 4th. Well new york was,
it was an interesting place. It was big to me. I had the, I lived, as I
said in this apartment house, it was on 100 and fifth street and broadway
ah Maybe five or 6 blocks from Colombia and maybe eight or 9 blocks from
from
the poor part of, of new york. Harlem actually very close to Harlem,
lots of activity, lots of restaurants, you know, before I had my good luck
of having home cooked meals, I was eating a meal here and a meal. They're
in these little places where you sit at the counter, people going by
hustle bustle,
very crowded. I had an uncle in the Bronx, I would visit them every
weekend.
Riding the subways was a new experience for me and and um some unfortunate
uh experiences too, like you're getting off at the wrong place and ending
up, you know, walk up the steps and you wonder where am I? It's not the
right place. And I found that I got off on uh 45th Street on the east side
instead of the west side or something like that. You have to go all the
way back down and back track so that I could come back to the right place.
But I was overwhelmed though with what was available there, you know, the
beautiful cathedrals, the beautiful venues where concerts were given the
old schools with their great architecture. I really enjoyed it very much
what was available to you to go down and visit Juilliard School of Music
to visit the opera. Usually I couldn't afford much more than peanut heaven
seats, you know like 1/5 balcony of Carnegie hall where you'd look down
and see the stage instead of being able to just look straight ahead. Um,
but so much available to you and that was the thing that impressed me, you
know, having come from a little town and then having come from a very
protective type home life and situation and to be there all of a sudden
with all this available to you, I was overwhelmed for at least a couple of
months before I finally got used to where I was supposed to go and what to
do and and better make make do of all the great things that you can, that
you can get, weren't you tempted to try to get involved in the music world
there, the symphonies and all the other. No, I didn't even try because and
I think it was all because of what I was hearing, how difficult it was to
get in the job, get a job to get in, there are so many people standing in
line who were actually members of the union and and they weren't getting
jobs and so they had to think of them and I didn't want to join the union
there. Uh
I was a little worried, scared a little scared of joining the union. I
didn't know what it was really, you know, I just knew the bad parts of it
, so to speak. And so no, I did a lot of playing, but it was gratis
playing. I did a lot of concert going and got into lots of people, but
again,
nothing that I felt that I should be nice if I could stay here. I had my
sights set for going back to my home area. And especially by then I had a
contract with the school district. And so my, my goal and my eyes were set
for that one spot. Tell me about that first job. What, what was your job?
Well, it was in a town called the midland pennsylvania and it was Lincoln
high School where I was to be, uh, the band and orchestra director. It was
an unusual job. Um, in order to take up the full day, I had to teach every
student that I had in the band and in the orchestra a private lesson a
week. They all had to take a lesson from me even though they were taking
lessons from maybe another teacher, a regular teacher.
And there were so many. Now I look at it, there's not very many students,
but it wasn't a big school and maybe I had 55 or 60 in a band and 30 in
the orchestra and then all the rest were, we're just individuals who were
not good enough yet to be in an orchestra. And but I had to teach them all
every week and fitting them in and end up being 15 minute lessons. you
know, which is just in and out in and out in and out in and out. It was
very difficult. But
I think that I was a violinist and my experiences were in orchestra and my
program, my educational program, of course included instrumental music,
which is band and orchestra and ensembles and things like that. And so I
was qualified to be a band director. And uh, and that's really what I was
hired. That was the biggest part of my job. Well to be thrown into band. I
was in the band, my, my violin teacher was also the band director at
Westminster College and he said, I need a bass drummer in the band and
you're going to be the bass drummer. What can I say? I'm on scholarship
that I had to take it. And so here's this bass drum that I can't even see
over. I had to look around the side and I boned the bank, he says, but you
have such a good rhythm. He said, I can rely on. He said that and I need
that to keep the band together. And so I was a bass drummer all through
through college. Only because I had to, that's all there was to it. And
but of course I was subjected or exposed to all the banned literature and
, and head courses, of course in literature. So that when I got the job to
see you understand that you have to be the bandit. Oh, yes, I understand.
And and that you'll have to, there's no problem. I can take care of band.
But oh, when I got into that and I had never, I had never made up a band
formation in my life, you know, and spelling letters and having people
going every which way scurrying around. So they all of a sudden the
picture appears on the field. So I had to do one for every, every uh, show
for every one of the games. And I lasted, I lasted in my mind, I lasted
one year. I mean, I was so, so overwhelmed with having to teach all these
lessons,
60 and sometimes 80 a week. As well as having my string class and trying
to build up the orchestra's after all, that's what my job was to build up
this orchestra and keep this band going. And uh, that I was running all
the time and I was not playing my violin as much as I wanted to. I mean, I
was playing it, but very little maybe demonstrating to a student, but I
wasn't really playing. I wasn't doing anything that was of any account. So
that I think by february of that school year, I decided I've got to get
out of this situation. I mean, I hate to give up after one year, I have to
get out of this situation because I cannot do justice to both the band
program and the, as it was, I was looking up books that had
band formations and how to make them and copying them and of course they
were, that's why they existed. But the fact is I had to make them fit to
midland and spell am instead of a and and accommodate the to the Susan
phones in front and the trombones and then the drummers had to be in the
right place so everybody could hear them and there was just so much to
think about that. I said, I'm going to
try to find another job and I'm not even gonna mention bands, I'm an
orchestra person period, which is what I did. So after one year I, I was
able to get a job in Louisville Kentucky Of all places at, at a school,
large school, 1100 students called Male High School and they were still
segregated. There was still a male and a female high and so in male high
school I got a job as the orchestra director and you understand it doesn't
, doesn't complete your program. So would you please assist the band
director and anything that has to be done, you know, like uh an errand boy
in a way and making sure people were straight in their formations and
maybe doing some rehearsing of the climate section or something like that.
And so in the morning I spent time at male high in the afternoon. I was a
female high and eventually we became, you got finally got its own name and
you know Atherton High, but I enjoyed that very much nice, nice city. It
must have been quite a change though. Moving to Kentucky. It was, it was,
you know, midland was rather, I don't know if you could say it was a coal
mining town, but an industrial town. And um I had some happy moments there.
There was a fine old gentleman there who was in uh the woodworking shop
and he was not married, I mean it was a widower and then I was not married
and so we sort of mhm we're pals and we'd eat supper together and solve
the problems of the world every night. But anyhow after after supper we
would go to the shop and we would make things and he taught me how to run
the lathe and and make bowls and candlesticks and things like that. So
I think it blew the ball. Yeah, very quietly. Okay, the tape is rolling
again. Um you were talking about your experiences that in Louisville
learning woodworking I think. Yes. Uh No, that was in midland midland
pennsylvania where we would um he taught me how to glue different kinds of
woods together so that I'd end up with a block and then put it on the lays
and then you can make nice bowls, you know, and uh, which would have, you
know, several woods in there and have a nice variety of colors that would
come about as a result of the different woods or candlesticks, which I
still still have display proudly and as a result of that, you know, I,
that was an enjoyable part of my job. You would think it would have been
in the music, but it was a new effort, new endeavor on my part and I
enjoyed doing the woodwork. Did you maintain that interest later? Well,
the interest, yes, I didn't have the malaise. I never did buy a saw of
course that, that I could use and do rough work, but never got to that to
the finesse type of work that was necessary to make these other things. Um
, we'll talk about your, your career then as you moved into Kentucky. Well
, in Kentucky i is a,
the school was, was male high and all the students wore uniforms and they
were all very respectful of their teachers and everything was on a
military basis where you stood at attention. The students stood at
attention when they, the teacher came in and ironically none of the
teachers were officers in the service or anything like that. We were all
civilians as were they of course, but they were ROTC though. And so that
there was no discipline problem. I mean that was heaven on earth as far as
the teachers concerned and especially comparing it to now and there was
attentiveness to the Nth degree. Uh when you stopped your rehearsal, the
students would all sit in a stance of attention like with their
instruments on their knee and sitting straight and listening to what you
had to say. And and they were always reluctant to do anything and unless
you actually asked them saying now let's just play this and asked the
client section to play this or the violin section. And so it made a very
fine teaching uh situation. The uh other school, the all girls school of
course was completely different. I mean they it wasn't an ROTC or ladies
uh school for with the military uniforms or anything like that. The thing
that was so nice about there's there was uh the girls weren't uh giddy
because there weren't any fellas around, they were all girls and and we
were able to get down to work and by far the better of the two, as far as
the performance ability, the girls group was was better. Uh Not always is
that the case, but it certainly was there. The boys were great on the
football field and marching parades and things like that. So you you have
to separate orchestras that you worked with. Yes, yes, these are schools
separated by 23 miles, I think it was and they had their own program, they
had goals of course would be different. The goal uh the orientation in the
male high school of course, was towards the military, but they had regular
classes though. I mean the regular high school classes and the rigidity
was carried out throughout class to class, you know, going through the
hallways, anything like that was music and orchestra. Was that a required
subject back then? It was an elective, It was an elective and uh there was
quite a good turnout for it. A lot of the students, two, I would choose
that school and that wasn't the only high school for males. I mean, that
would just happen to be the one I was hired in male high school.
It was oriented towards the fact that they were going to go on to military
school and yeah, the training was supposed to carry carry through was
supposed to be the foundation.
How long were you there? I was only there two years. Um, I was
Well backing up to 1. 1 of the, my friends at Westminster College, a
couple of years ahead of me,
graduated of course ahead of me and became the, the chairman of the music
department in a high school, a large high school in mercer pennsylvania
ended up in phoenix at phoenix union high school, which at the time was
the largest high school west of the Mississippi and had
60 500 students Campus that occupied to think four city blocks where
people had to go from building to building to go to class. She ended up as
the, one of the choral directors, they had four choral directors school
was so large that it had an oratorio society had all um men's course had
the girls course, acapella choir glee club, I mean just just a lot of
offering and she was in one of those, he had the acapella choir, the girls
glee club and
Helen, Helen Francis, unmarried and then when she got married, Helen
Donaldson and she was there at phoenix Union High School and an opening
occurred in the orchestra for the orchestra's and the principal, James
carter said, let's try to find a, you know, a young gung ho person to have
this, get this program because the person was their doctor, it's wilder
was very old, I mean he was in his seventies and he was tired, I can't
blame him. And and and so she said, well I know just the person that you
might like his, I was his accompanist in high school and then he did his
student teaching under me and he's teaching in Louisville now, this was
during my second year
and I get this call from mr carter saying that you've been highly
recommended and we'd like to have you come be the orchestra director
director of orchestral activities here at phoenix Union High school and I
said, well, you know, I'm, I'm flattered and all that I said, but I'm
under contract and I can't just leave and
he said, well we'd still like to have, you know, I'm sure something can be
arranged, you know, in the stern voice and but if you're interested he
said, I said, and I don't know when I can get off to come interview. He
says, well this is your interview right here. And then we talked on the
phone. I said, well I'll see what I can do. I said it sounds very enticing
, you know, just glowing about the school. It was such a fantastic place
and and and told me how much Helen enjoyed it and recommended me highly
and knew that I would enjoy it and that uh my string background and and
all that and please give it, they didn't have to go through all the
federal guidelines in the hiring people where you had to hire had to
interview so many people that you found somebody who wanted, you went
after him. And so I approached my principal and I told him, I said it's
it's a tremendous opportunity for me. I said, I said, I like my job here
very much. I said, but this kind of an opportunity just doesn't appear
that quickly. It's strictly a string job, an orchestral job And it's in a
big school where I have tremendous resources, lots available to me and and
the
the challenge is going to be to really build the program that's
commensurate with the school of this size, you know, he says it isn't now
because the doctor, it's Weiler has just let down the last 56 years and,
and so I presented it to my principal as I said, then he was, he said,
well I can understand, I hate to stand in your way, is that? But it's up
to the school board, you're under contract and this and that and I said, I
don't want to break the contract, I mean I'll try to work something out
the other from the other end. So finally got to the school board and it
was uh, it was accepted eventually, it took a while, but it was accepted
with their blessings and all providing that I would stay until the
replacement could be found to come in
and so on. The other end on phoenix, I can come providing a replacement
can be found here and you're gonna have to find somebody because dr it's
wilder was going to retire there in the middle of the year. And so
what happened was that a student teacher was allowed to take over with a,
with a teacher though, sitting there and being the teachers mostly, but
not teaching. And the student teacher was during the orchestral activities
and I finally was released from my contract from Louisville, which it was
mixed feelings. I really enjoyed that I enjoyed that going to the, I had
just come back from the Orange Bowl of the game and bring the assistant
band director and walking up that down in that field and the formations
and the tremendous audience participation in this great feeling. And here
I was going to leave it. Tell us about the Orange Bowl experience. You
didn't really tell us about that. Well that the experience was only in the
fact that we're in a place that was so big with so many people with such
acceptance, you know what I mean? The cheers and all that and how much
they, here was an all boys school and all all in uniform and of course the
marching was superb. I mean, absolutely, it was just clockwork. It wasn't
uh where a person would be out of step or one head bobbing up and
everybody else's bobbing down and that kind of thing. And uh
we were supposed to be the band for the home team and the night to this
day, I cannot tell you what what the name of the team was or where they
were and I knew what it was, but my age is now taking charge and uh had
tremendous experiences with and with that kind of a situation. I look back
on it now, we had no problems, no problems worrying about the, the guys
ending up at the bar that the evening or something like that. It was all
strict, just strict. They all had their time to go to bed and they all had
their time to get out and practice and and we were the band uh for that
program. And so the, the adulation that came about was just wonderful, you
know, I still tingle over it, thinking about it. Uh and we came back, it
was something that we talked about, you know, all the way back. And uh and
then years after that, when I would correspond with some of the students,
in fact, one of the students there who was my, who was my principal flute
player in the, one of the orchestra's I had in the Mail High was also in
Male high when I came here to phoenix to teach and I was playing in a
pickup group for a show and he was sitting on flute. I looked at him, I
said, you know, you look just like a kid that I used to have in school
several years ago, back in Louisville, he said, that's where I've seen you.
He said you were my teacher and you were my orchestra teacher at male
high school. But anyhow, it was, it was so nice and I hated to leave. And
but but the the real part of the story that I'd like to tell is that, you
know, I had these all these conversations with mr carter, the principle
about how much he wanted me and and uh and how pleased he was to know that
there was somebody available in this world of this country, that that
would really be nice about the job here. And I finally appeared, I drove
my brand new Chevrolet from Louisville in the winter time all the way down
to uh, the phoenix, getting into a lot of trouble with the snow is going
and running into snowbanks and all that stuff, you know? And after about
four days of this, I come all the way to uh, to phoenix union and then I
come up the steps to to mr carter's office and knock on the door and come
in and I, I'm Eugene Lombardi says, oh yes, he said, please be seated
rather stern. And he wasn't long when he said no, I want you to know that
were a big school and you can see that. And he said, we have fine students
and we have lots of potential aces. And my,
my word to you is that we need to have a good symphony orchestra into
school. Now, I will give you three years to build a school before you can
get tenure. And he said, and if you can't do that, then somebody else will
have to take your place. And I said, here's this nice man that talks so
willingly beautifully on the phone. You wanted me so much. And now he's
threatening me already. I haven't even gotten any farther than the office.
But in the, as it turned out, he was right that the kids were very nice
and build up the program to the point where it was the kind, in fact, I
had about three orchestras in, by the end of the third year back up a bit.
What year was it that you came here In 1950? It came to Arizona. What was
your first impression of phoenix after this long drive? Oh well it looked
like heaven because it was, you know, I had just come from the deep snows
, I mean slush, uh, you know, waddling around all over the highways trying
to avoid the black ice and, and all that and then come to this and palm
trees and all these and then it was just heavily treed with orange trees.
You know, all the citrus was just all over the place, you drive through
all that before you got into the core of the town and the streets were so
wide and these buildings are also low houses are all on one floor and just
, you didn't see houses, two floors high. And uh, and then there's this
campus and I wish, I wish you could experience this. The, There were, I
think there were 18 buildings and, and the stadium um hmm if I could even
think of what it was Montgomery stadium. Exactly. And that was where the
bowl game was played every year and the music department occupied the
whole third floor of the stadium, which meant Maybe 12 big rehearsal rooms.
It was that big. It was big as the stadium was inside and the facilities
were great and they had a science building and they had a literature in
english and literature building and of course a big auditorium uh an
administration building, a girls pe mens P. E. It was like a college
campus and you had to go from building to building to get from one class
to the other. And that was I mean the only place that that that I had been
was Westminster College which would be like that. And uh and this made
Westminster College looked like a little tiny, maybe junior high in size
because there are only 1100 students. And here this was a 65 to 6700
students and it was just awesome, just eye opening. And but the second big
disappointment after Mr carter was that I was escorted to my room
to where the orchestra room was in session and a student was taking me
there and I get up to this door and I listened and I think oh this is
awful, That's awful of sounds. And I opened the door and peeked in and
here's this student teacher struggling with about 30 students
playing and about
10, I would Visualize 10 hanging out the windows, looking at the pe girls
and and others walking in and out of the room and I guess going to the
restroom. And I thought this can't be this kept this is what I left
Louisville for I had this fantastic situation where these people were all
military and like, and here these kids are hanging out the windows,
looking ogling at the girls, some of them were outside going to the igloo
to go to get an ice cream cone. Some, we're going to the restroom because
they signed their name on the board to go out and then come back and it
wouldn't even come back in. And I thought to myself, this is what I got
into. This is awful. This is what it had gone down to as a result of the
lack of attention that the other teachers, uh, I didn't give didn't get
him. So it was happiness in a way when I got back, when I got here and I
was very disappointed in what I thought my job was going to be an employee.
I really have a job to do here and I only have three years I'm out. It's
just, it's going to be very difficult. But it just happened that there
were a lot of good students in there who refused to play in the program
because it was so bad. What did you do to try to turn things around? Well
, my first rehearsal there, you know, they were all looking at the new guy
and being treated like another student teacher. You know, let's see what
we can get away with. And of course I had to put a stop to this going out
to the bathroom. Uh, just a constant stream, you know, two or three at a
time and then coming back and going out back and no continuity in my
rehearsal I had to keep Attention going because they were used to talking
and there were more, more people who wanted to hang out looking out the
window, so that that 45, by the end of the third week, I think I had cut
it down to 19, I had kicked the rest of them out. I only wanted the people
who were interested in the program period, I mean I know you have to go to
the bathroom, go before the class and uh if you must know that if you may
, but you better be back in a hurry and I'll send somebody for you when I
had to be very strict about it and uh and after having the kind of
attention that the ROTC boys had previously, I had to try to instill that
in them, not that I want him to stand up at attention or anything like
that, but when I hit that podium, it had to be quiet. I mean after I'm off
the podium, you may talk if you want to, but once I get on that podium,
that's a signal to be quiet. And At the end of that first year, I think I
ended up with about 25, there were something, but then as the orchestra
got better, the people who were into schools that I didn't know about,
they Like what they heard and say I'd like to be part of that. So by the
end of the second year, I think it was up to 80. And uh by the end of the
, well I think it was the beginning of the third year, I've had so many, I
had to start a second orchestra. So my job was safe at the time. But a lot
of good people came out of that program. I mean by the third year, I think
at least eight of my orchestra were members of the phoenix symphony. And
and a lot of those people went on to be like Pete jolly had Pete sarah
julie in my in my class
and Pete jolly became one of the top jazz pianists, downbeat, elected as
probably the top jazz pianists in the country. I don't know how many years.
uh and people that went on to play. In fact, I still correspond with one
uh boy who used to play with the stan kenton orchestra as well as the
Woody Herman Orchestra. Uh and he played for, I don't know how many years
in las Vegas and is now in uh in colorado, Fort Collins colorado. But I
get in fact, there's one girl in the symphony Florence pool Who was my
principal cellist and she is still in the symphony. That was from 1953.
That's a lot that's really a longevity of unheard of length, but as a
result of that, I immediately joined the phoenix symphony and became a
member of the first violin section and within the first, uh well it was
actually within the first year I was elevated to assistant concert master
, which would be the second chair. And uh And then stayed assistant
concert master of the Symphony for 10 years. Uh and this is all going
along with the, with the high school building of the program.
By then, the symphony had got to where they felt they needed, we need to
have some youth participation under the auspices of the phoenix Symphony.
And so dr Leslie Hodge, who was the conductor of the symphony and I
started the youth orchestra program. And so the Phoenix Youth Orchestra
was born, I guess in 1953.
And uh it grew so big to where we felt that we need to separate the high
school and elementary school students because musically they may have been
compatible, but socially they were not. And so we had those problems to
worry about. And so we thought we'd better make a break there. And so I
was the founding conductor of the symphony, yet the phoenix infinite,
which was the elementary school. And of course we had our problems, you
know, there were so many people that were in that's infinite, that were
much better than some of the symphony youth orchestra because, but because
of age, we had to have that separation and we have to decide what we do by
do it by ability and proficiency level or do we do it by social level age
level or what. And so, you know, I was involved in founding the seat youth
Orchestra and the simple net and, and I was also assistant concert master
of the symphony and then I had my orchestra program, so I was kind of a
busy guy. I liked it. It was, it was great and uh, enjoyed doing all that
work and it was all in orchestra or you know, no band work.
I uh, stayed there actually seven years only because the, the chairman of
the Arizona State College then had been coming to my concerts and liked
what I was doing. And evidently as he told me later that he thought we've
got to get that guy at A S U R A S C and, and then somehow, well, I mean,
here I am in one of the biggest schools in the country with an orchestral
program that was unheard of growth and not because,
well, you know, I'd like to take credit for it, but not because of me, but
it was growing because of the sheer size of the school. And you know, when
you get so many people, there are bound to be a certain percentage of
people that are of a proficiency level that would be highly sought in a
high school situation. Plus being in a high school situation, it was like
a college. I mean this high school was one where you can get a music major
and I think that's why one of the things that helped my program, but it
also brought out brought people into the school district where you can get
a music major. And this is part of my job to when you came in as a
freshman, you took music appreciation, you could elect music appreciation
as one of your courses. The third year, you elected history of music,
which was a continuation of the music appreciation here. You listen to
records and hear about composers. When you get to the history of music,
you start putting those composers in the right time of the, of the century
or centuries. You know what I mean? You get to learn about the style of
music and all that. So there was a follow up to that. The second year you
took Fundamentals of music, you learn about key signatures and names of
lines and spaces. Basic left, 10och left and all the little stuff that you
have to learn before you really know what you're doing in music. You
learned that for a year, so that the fourth year you took orchestration
and arranging. So that means a person with a music major in his freshman
year in music appreciation. Second year fundamentals of music, 3rd Year
History of Music, 4th Year Arranging, you know, harmony and all that and
you graduated in your required courses, but you also happen to have a
music core, their music major. Well that's why all those people were
getting jobs and going on to schools and getting big scholarships and all
that because this background that they have, they weren't learning the the
A. B. CS of the, of the collapse. You know, they knew all the base
collapse basically collapsed trouble class tender class, you know, they do
all these different collapse. They knew how to write chords they could
accompany, they could, they could do so many things. So whenever I was
offered the A. S. C. Job and I went to rehearsal there and it was very
much like that first rehearsal that I went to phoenix union, I mean there
was a group of people that very proficient group of about 12 and here I
had this great big orchestra room. It wasn't a beautiful room. I mean, as
I said, it was the third floor of the stadium and lots lots of room. I
could put 100 and 50 piece orchestra there and still have room to to have
a class going on on the other side of the room. And here I'm going to a
place where that room does not exist. The numbers didn't exist. The
opportunities didn't exist. So it was very difficult decision to make. And
this, I got this knock on the door one time and dr Ryder came to me, he
said that he had he had attended my last night's concert and he was just
so impressed with it. I just wanted to come tell me how much he enjoyed it
And he said, would you consider coming to a sc?
And of course I was shocked and paralyzed over that. It never occurred to
me to, you know, to go into college work yet, you know, I was really
working hard on this program,
but at the same time then I got an offer from the University of Minnesota
to come in as the orchestra director there and uh, so I had to wrestle. Do
I go to a sc, A school of 5500 with a fledgling string program or do I go
to the University of Minnesota very, the largest school in the country at
the time, a big orchestral program colder than the dickens here. I have my
home, I'm nine miles away from Tempe. Uh, not you know, that could be a
good situation. So I was thinking I'm gonna do one of the two, I don't
know which one I decided finally that I would
and of course I did decide to go to a sc, But meanwhile, in 1953, when
Helen Donaldson who was the one responsible for me coming to, to phoenix
became pregnant and decided that she was ah going to give up her job and
just raise her child and so there was an opening for the director of, of
girls glee club acapella acquired etcetera.
The, the components that that person had to deal with was much like mine
where I in the strings, had the orchestral and chamber, the person there
in the acapella choir also had to be able to teach Oregon and teach piano
because they could even take piano lessons. You can come out with a piano
major or, or take organ lessons. See, so they were looking for a person
and this happened in the middle of the year. Well uh, they scoured the
country for a person to take the place and so they did find a young lady
who had just graduated from the University of Oklahoma to come in and and
be able to teach organ piano and uh teach the girls glee club acapella
choir etcetera etcetera. And three years later we got married. So as a
result of that my wife appeared on the scene, future life appeared on the
scene and so it was nice that way too at the time Sue Davis and Jacqueline
is her first name actually, but she doesn't use Jacqueline and she stayed
there for a while until the rules of nepotism crawled in and one of us had
to leave and, and she felt that since my program was going so well and
getting growing so large and refined so much that she should leave and she
did and she took over the same kind of almost the same kind of a position
at west phoenix high school and taught there until our first a child is
born.
And of course then I had to make the decision to move on. So mm as you can
see, my life has been musically directed, but very nicely. I mean it's,
you couldn't have written it any better. I don't think it's uh,
One thing I thought about, you were at Phoenix Union than in the 50's
until 57 you were there when carver high school closed. Tell me a little
bit about that time. Um, there was no competition of course between us
because they didn't have an orchestral program there, that they did have a
good band program. Um
in the early days of my phoenix union, if I had any spare time I wandered
off over to the band room and helped harvey zorn, who was the band
director with his since I've had some experiences in that first job and it
will leave it in the second job in Louisville with band. And I said, I'd
be glad to help you. This was strictly volunteer, I'll be glad to help you
and help you when you get on the field, you know, up and down and see
who's out of order as far as I may be wrong, step wrong foot and who may
be late and they were making their turns, you know, just sort of be a
spotter for problems and and also rehearsing and I got to be quite and it
was really a good thing for me to do because the band people got to know
me and he got to say well, you know, I wouldn't mind playing in the
orchestra because some of them shy away from the orchestra and north,
that's long hair stuff, I don't want that. And so I did did do that and
those years were positive ones and for me too far as growth is concerned.
Um
I think that good, even though the competition was getting stiffer in
phoenix because then the school started, they started building well, they
had built West High, North High was already built and that was the only
competition that I had when I first got here and then West high was built
and then East high and then first, you know, all these others and they
just started spreading out like mad uh but they didn't negate the growth
that was going on at phoenix union because it was the school and its
ironically enough now you want to drive by there now and all you see is
three buildings was on 7th street there and but then all the other
buildings that the issue I guess has helped in the building of research
and and all you're talking about when carver closed and then some of those
students came to finish, they came to finish union and they had a
different attitude and different kind of atmosphere that they enjoyed in
their school, that there was a little easier, a little lackadaisical and
stuff like that, it was rather difficult to try to assimilate some of
those people and I never did get too many of them in the orchestral
program because the orchestra start to get to the level where we were
playing music about the same level as the symphony does the phoenix
symphony. And then I guess that's why some of the people were able to make
, get into this phoenix symphony even while they were in high school. And
so consequently I never had very many of them come in. I don't know that I
had more than a half dozen people that played or wanted to play string
instruments. They would be in my beginning classes and there were a lot of
woodwinds that were available, but I couldn't use some of the saxes or
something like that. And the brass, I don't know that I ever had any of
the Carver brass. Now, the person who took my place who had been the band
director at Carver um did was able to assimilate some of them, but I'm
sorry to say that that the program went down some, you know, as a result
of that, because he wanted to bring in some of his kids that he had there
and and they weren't at the level yet, they didn't have the background
that, that mine had as a result of the classes that they took and it
wasn't because of me and I said because of the classes that they took,
which the learning just made them better musicians and all that. And so
as a result of that, my association with some of those students other than
being good friends with the band director
and uh, being known to some of the students there because I would go over
and guess conduct at times
as a result of that, I got a few but the person after that profited from
that.
So tell me about coming to Arizona State College at that time. That was,
what year did you actually start here, 1957?
Rather small school. I think it was 5500 students. Um,
my, my situation was, was quite different like my c my rehearsal situation
, we had a quant set hut where we had to rehearse. And where was that
located?
I guess it's, it's located.
You know, if you go out damage to to College Gammage Auditorium to college
on that corner, they're going south was
Goodwin Stadium. Yeah, I'm trying to really going back now and
let's see what else I can recollect about that. But anyhow right near that
Goodwin Stadium was this metal
quantity, that's, I don't know if it was left over from ROTC or whether it
was moved over from some from some military.
Is that right, Okay. And you go into this concept art. This is my first
impression, I walk in and I and I look at it with their risers there for
the band and orchestra to rehearse in. I look at the ceiling and it's I
realized that it is egg cartons that have been stapled or hit attached to
the tops of the stadium curved part here acting as insulation too. But
mostly for the to eliminate any reverberation or reflection and the sounds
gunny sack drapes hanging down just all the way around all this round. I
look at this thing and I wonder the first thought that was kind of novel.
And then secondly, I thought what's all that these sacks? I thought there
had been maybe they were a gunny sack um sacks that have been undone and
then sewn together. But no, they were actually part of a role of gunny
sacks and that's how they control the sound by having that in the
background. And of course you're part of them in earth places where you
kept your cases and place where you kept your music and stuff like that.
And then all these a cartons that were attached to the ceiling. I thought
, okay, this is my new job, you know, and this is uh, this is college now
and uh it's going to be better hope and I had some very, there were only
about 14 or 15 I think when I first went there in in the string group,
supposed to have been more, but they didn't always have the time free. The
only way they could be in the program is if you'd let me come in just on
Tuesdays and Thursdays because I don't have classes and you know, I can
help the orchestra program that way. And so you have to relent and be
understanding of the situation for them and uh and most of them were
members of the phoenix symphony, so the level was very high, but the
distribution of instruments was very low, very poor, too many of one thing
and not enough of another. And as a result of that it was hard beginning
Doctor writer who was the chairman of the of the music department when I
came to the program when he came to hire me dr grant fletcher was the head
of the music department, but that was going to be his last year and dr
writer knowing he was going to be chairman the next year, he I guess
jumped in and decided to better fix this program. We're gonna have to
limit my my attention as far as what I have. So that's what what it wasn't
dr Reiter was the conductor of the orchestra and I was hired as the
assistant conductor except that I took off the rehearsals and I still
conducted the orchestra and he would come in and do the couple and conduct
concerts but he only did that for the first semester, maybe part of the
second, It just got to be too much. The school was growing. I mean the
music portion of the school was growing like mad and, and he was a very
good administrator rather quiet. None.
Yeah, not a trouble free personality, you know what I mean? Just such a
nice person. But there was growing like mad. He was able to get good
faculty and then get good students to come in. Okay. Alright. Then we're
starting tape 3. 1st let's just go back and tell me when you were hired
here, what was your first title? Assistant professor of music? And I
taught besides assisting in the orchestra. It was first at first semester
I taught violin and viola. Not very many. And I was Also teaching 1st year
theory. I thought sight reading, which is part of component of the theory
program. I taught
music in the classroom, the music for music education. And so people were
considering a full load then it was about 12 hours And I think mine would
get up to 26,
hours of teaching. And in one time I, I didn't mention it to dr writer,
but I mentioned to, to somebody else. I said, why is it that my program is
so heavy and uh, I'm just, it's coming out my ears and I just teaching
violin and viola having to do some recruiting have to teach us music
education? Of course? I'm teaching the elementary part of the theory
program. And, and I'm just being spread out of the place. He said, well,
you almost have to look at it like we're trying to, uh, make everyone
understand that there was a need for somebody else to be taken in. And of
course by you being so busy proves that we really needed you. Otherwise
this wouldn't be covered. Well, okay, It's you sort of wonder, but I won't
be here a couple more years. I'll be dead. She needed two of you. Yeah.
Just, uh, well as a result, it was a wonderful experience. And, and
reflecting onto the word near my retirement time, I realized that by, by
very, the fact that I did all those things, I understood all the problems
that were, you know, like in the, the need for the music theory and or the
lack of that the students you needed to bone up on or the music education
, why the programs weren't succeeding in the valley because the people in
, in the, in the high school situation or the elementary situation had a
different, had a wrong approach to the way they were teaching. They were
just trying to teach little pieces of information here and here and that
they weren't getting sequence. You know, that's the only way to learn
music is, you know, you learn new things as a result of old things and you
had to make sure that they all occurred, the blocks occurred in the right
order. And then it makes sense to the student. But when you just had these
isolated bits of information and you wonder when do you pull these things
together and where, where do they go? And so consequently it was a good
experience. But oh I was pushed. Good thing. I was young. Um
you mentioned the quantity that you rehearsed in. Where was your office at
that time? Okay. My office was in the old music building which became the
the, what it was next door to the library became the it was the art arts
building and then it became something else. Anthropology.
And my office was on the sub floor. You know, it wasn't the first floor,
it was a the ground floor and I had two windows and I always would see
trousers and legs walking by, I never knew who they belonged to. And it
was nice. It was always cool there of course a nice big studio violin
there and then had my, my small classes of that would be pertinent to the
string program.
Know gunny sacks there. It was rather difficult to,
to put anything like on the Warhol or a picture because it was solid
concrete I think right there and you couldn't attach anything. The nice
experience that I had there was the dr Reiter was a fine pianist
and he was a good composer
and mhm we developed a very close relationship. Uh the fact that he'd come
and hired me and we became close and the fact that we were in the same the
orchestral program and had the same like music and I never went out to eat
, I didn't have time actually, so I always brought a lunch and I ate there
in my office dr Ryder, he decided that he would join me once in a while
and he would bring a lunch and so we'd eat together and talk and uh and
gradually it became to where we would hurry up and eat our lunch so that
we could play Sonatas, he would play the piano and I would play the violin
and we'd go through, oh all the Sonatas were ever written and that we had
this whole hour, hour and a half before my next class or something like
that and we spent quite a few years that way, you know, they're in that
place underground, so to speak. And also down there were the people in
ceramics and and uh well I don't know every aspect of that part of art and
uh so that we we had here lots of noise going on um and people that would
be doing their ceramic works and Schomburg had his office down there and
there were others who I can't even think of now but tom hardy. Yeah, but
also uh uh Mr Schooler who was the director of the choir, his office is
also down there right next to mine and so and upstairs on the second floor
with the piano teachers and they were, they treated to this daily concert
, I don't know if they could hear it. I really don't because I think it's
a solid building and probably pretty well you'd almost have to come into
the hallway right by my studio to know that there was a violin lesson
being given.
Where did you perform at that time? Where did your orchestras? Well uh
there was, there was first years we had two places. One was,
when was this? This building
that had a nice open area with always pictures on the wall and it was very
close to the administration building. I think it was the registration
building or used became the registration building, the registrar's office
, there was an administration,
but it was next, it was next door to it. Um and it's it's the
more building and it was an open, flat floor situation where the little
orchestra sat there and the audience was all around you and of course with
the small groups that we had those first years, that's where we gave our
concerts, There was a place with a stage, but the building was rather
dangerous. They were concerned about it falling apart, so to speak. So I
do not recall more than
maybe half dozen performances they're building, was that and I don't know
what it was called, the old auditorium. Right. Yeah,
no, no, no. And and so that we gave concerts then in the student union and
gave it also was on the floor because the stage was so small and it just,
and besides, it wasn't, it didn't have good projection and all that, there
was a very high off the floor, you know, you just didn't feel right
performing that, it was better to be on the floor and No damage then I
think came came around uh building and if it was being built in 1965 or
started in 65 or closed opened, I mean 64, I was on the building committee
for for damage and that's interesting
In 65, I think.
Mhm. I was sick, was that right?
So anyhow my dates, but tell you, how did you get on the building
committee for that? How did that come about? Well, I was the music
representative on that committee and dealt with the plans, especially with
the music end of it, with the classroom part of it and not with the stage
part of it, of course, the auditorium part. And uh we liked the idea of
incorporating the music along with that because it would be so close to
proximity to getting our equipment to the stage is so much better than it
had been. We've been having rehearsals someplace else. And we asked almost
, well, it was too close to hire a truck and it was too far away to carry
it by hand, you know, I mean just between a rock and a hard place, It was
kind of difficult. But um, it was so nice to have the music building or I
mean the music department, especially the band and the orchestra, the
instrumental groups there where they had heavy equipment. We can just
finally get on the elevator, go down to the stage level and, and be right
on the stage. And it was very nice.
So, those last years were spent being, uh, concerts in the Emu Memorial
Union building and this nice building being built for our future. And as a
result of that, we have lots to get to look forward to improvement.
We felt that the situation as it was, was
it was difficult at best. You know, the sound was not good in the Memorial
Union. Uh, it had lots of reverberation, lots of echo. We have to be
careful what we programmed, you know, it would come back at us two
measures later and it was difficult to try to balance.
I had one interesting thing happened.
My my wife and and daughter, I don't think my son was there. We're at this
concert. My daughter was very small, maybe two years old.
We're giving a concert before the concert came. I came out and they
recorded all the concerts I came out and and out pops out. That's my daddy.
That was my my daughter who was sitting in the front row and and so that
was kind of unnerving at first. But then that same concert after the
concert was over. Um
I came out the applause I came out of the of the emu building. The
what was that room called? The activity room No and the emu
I'm trying to get the concert place you know it was like a dance hall and
it was also eating place and it was the second, the second floor with that
big room where the concerts in the in the Memorial Union building, the
ballroom. Alright there was a ballroom. Okay, that's where we had all our
performances. Well I was coming off at the end of that concert and
somebody was standing out there and said the President has been shot and I
said come on and I just walked back out from my second bow and third bow
and stuff like that. He came out to find that president Kennedy had been
had been assassinated.
It was kind of a sad moment at that time, difficult
to understand. Yes, mm hmm.
So once Gammage was finished then that must have been quite a change for
you. Oh it was it was heaven. It was really heaven on Earth. My office is
on the 4th floor and I had a nice office,
it was, my library was right next door and the elevator right nearby
straight down to do although it was was not as busy as now of course but
it was still difficult in trying to get in to do the rehearsals because
everybody wanted to use Gammage Auditorium and and we had to keep fighting
for our place and wait a minute. This is built also for our performing
groups, you know that we want this to be available to us and it got to
where it was only available at first, it was available for two rehearsals
, the last two rehearsals, which was nice. We get used to get away from
the rehearsal room Closeness and get into the large concert. All we have
to learn to project your sounds so that it would go out to the audience
and balance problems and things like that. And but it got to the point
that we got busier because the Oregon was in there and the pipe organ made
majors, I had to have a place to practice and just cut off time because
our rehearsal was usually 12 30 to 2 30 and uh it's cut off a couple of
hours of practice time that they can get with the pipe organ on stage. And
so we only got one time and which made it rather difficult. So you
rehearsed like mad that afternoon tired the concert was coming up that
night. And so because we had to leave our set up there and but it was
still nice, it was such a glorious sound to be able to have
this first, a beautiful sight of looking at it from the stage at the rose
balconies
and then secondly to to hear this beautiful sound that would come back at
you whenever you play, it was so warm and so uh melded, you know what I
mean? It just brought together everything that you did were the sounds in
the practice room were rather sharp and delineated and defined.
It's like I used to say to my students when we were playing, I said, you
know, one thing about playing an orchestral uh situation is it, we want to
have a good mixture of the sounds melding of sounds. I said the way I like
to to talk about it is like when I eat cake, I like to eat cake, I don't
want to say, oh that's flower, isn't it? Oh and there's this piece of
strawberry who's in there? And you know what I mean? I want to taste cake
and I think that's why I want to hear music, I want to hear a good blend,
I want to hear a quality that you know, that expands and contracts and you
get a good
mixture and and we have to strive for that. You know, you may have a solo
, but wait a minute, let's be careful, it's not solo to the point that you
are a soloist in here, it's a solo part in that mixture and it's like it's
that one strawberry, it's sticking out of the cake, maybe shits, it's
obvious, but not, you know, it's not, it's not supposed to be foremost and
we got that in Gammage oh it just came back like just one big wave of, of
sound and, and I think that did more for the growth of my program. I can
assure you that was first years from 19, um 65
on the growth was it was growing but, but boy, when Gammage opened, I
don't know how the message got out, but boy the people just flocked in and
it had more to do with the growing of the program. All of a sudden I had
three orchestras and I had to chamber orchestras, you know, and a string
orchestra and all that and sometimes not duplicating people either. You
know, the people, I had the horses, I could just have a good good time
that I imagine you had more people come to hear the concerts also very
much I should say we would have a nice
group of, of audience in the emu in the ballroom, but everything's on the
same floor and after the second or third row you just might as well be
somewhere else just because all you can do is here, you couldn't see, you
couldn't see anything once in a while, somebody would see somebody said
stand up and say who played that, you know, who did that and all that. So
it was, it was nice that we had a place to play but it was not ideal, but
Gammage great
and the audience could come and enjoy it. That's right. And it, you know,
at first I imagine we Had maybe six, people. But it got at times well for
the, some of the programs we would have full houses. But most of the
programs, the downstairs would be pretty well filled with a smattering in
the grand tier.
So it was, yes, it was a nice experience. And the students would always,
every time it was a nice experience. Like a first experience like ah,
isn't this beautiful?
That was in the 60s. So you were here during the 60s, there was somewhat
unrest on campus during that time. You mentioned Kennedy assassination.
But were you here for some of the other war protests and things like it
didn't, it didn't manifest anything into my own program? No, it did not. I
was aware of him and and we knew what was going on, but and nothing
happened in my orchestra that showed any of that. I don't know whether
some of the people that were involved in that were in the orchestra and I
wouldn't even know about it. You know, when they didn't try to do anything
in the class to gain a podium, so to speak.
What about some other highlights of your career here at the issue? Are
there other things that stand out in your mind? Well, as a result of the
growth of the program
And incidentally, I guess I should say something about the growth of the
it was
it was a monster of my own making, I think when I think about it because
you know when you produce a program that's successful and I use that not
to flatter myself, I mean it was successful in the fact that it was
growing, the student level was better, proficiency level was better and
therefore the kind of literature we could play was better. And so that
would attract, but then you would also have to go out and try to and try
to recruit because you want to have balance to, I mean I don't want an
orchestra of violins and so I I need all the other instruments too. And so
I'd have to recruit and you know, if you produce an orchestra of 75 85 90
100 then you start doing some nice music, the department chairman and the
school, the dean and they expect that every year and you think oh so
they're gonna graduate in a couple of years, I need to find a replacement
for this first bassoon or this first trumpet who's playing in there on my
timpanist er et cetera. And so you couldn't just sit back and say whoa ho
ho were a s you now and people start knocking on my door. Oh sure a few
would, but most of the people are either too bashful or you're afraid to
come in like that, they don't know if that's the way you approach it, so
that means you go out. So that means either I go to lots of concerts and I
decided I'd sure like to go after that person and that one and that one
and, and try to recruit like mad as our other schools now that are coming
here or I go to a different all states in various parts of the country,
usually the midwest or the west. And, and just sort of
go around to the all state rehearsals and say boy that I like that third
stand outside player violence and find out who that is. So that I would
come home with a list of maybe 30 people that I would write letters to in
care of the school. I wouldn't know their addresses or anything like that.
But I would just write it in care of the orchestra director and hoped
that he would be kind enough to pass the letter on to the, to the students.
You know, I would say I would state my interest in them and our program.
I would talk about our programs and literature that they, so that I would
be recruiting all the time. That's what I meant by a monster of my own
making. You have a big program. They're expecting that every year, just
like they do in football or, or in, you know, anything else. And, and so
it got bigger. But then I started getting some people from Mexico and and
some, maybe a person from Japan. So then I started getting openings in in
foreign countries as well as maybe one of my graduates would be in Salem
Oregon where they have a good orchestra program or in Richardson texas
would have a very fine string program. And so I would be writing, so I'd
be writing letters all the time. I mean at least a dozen a day where all
individuals because, and I would do it myself. I didn't have a secretary.
And so Usually I could maybe hope for 5-10% of those people that that
would want to come to the program.
A. S. U. Was still growing. Didn't have the reputation yet. Our program
did luckily. I mean we were giving concerts with famous artists.
We're doing it. We did it when I was there uh, utilizing not only the
faculty as soloists with the orchestra, but also Gammage was good enough
to Gammage personnel good enough to higher
uh professional solos to come in as solos with the orchestra program. That
wouldn't cost me anything. They would pay the fee for the solos.
So we were getting lots of recognition and we were a lot of, all our
programs were recorded and somehow or other, some of the programs would
get out. And uh, we were looked upon what I saw in a couple of
publications where they were thinking, we were like maybe the fourth or
fifth in the country. And some of the solos would go back and say, oh
that's the orchestra to get with. I mean if you want to get into a
university orchestra to be solos to get with with the A. S. U orchestra,
well that made me feel good. So that helped. Well, then they start hitting
some of the foreign countries. So I was getting people from Costa rica,
quite a few good instrumentals from Costa rica, Mexico, from Japan and,
and then gradually, and if you go look now he sees many, many orientals in
the present orchestral program and many from different countries. The only
problem that I would run across was that
I would say maybe half would have great difficulty in passing what is
called the Tofel exam where the english speaking and understanding program
, they had to pass this total exam. And I'm fortunate to say, I mean it's
unfortunate that I have to say that some of the people who are very, very
good. I had one young man from, from Japan who was in the Tokyo Symphony
Orchestra who couldn't get into a issue because he couldn't pass the toefl
exam. And so he spent six or 7 years here. I mean he played in the
orchestra uh studied with me, not, you know, I wasn't naturally a person
of that caliber didn't have to study with me. I mean we sort of helped
each other and I mean I would introduce the western way of playing that.
And while he still had sort of a a different concept of how it's to be
played. And, but if they didn't pass the total exam, they couldn't pursue
a degree program. And but there are a lot of foreigners in our, in our
arts programs now. Performing arts as a result of of those days where it
just finally got over, we went into Mexico and would give concerts. We one
time we were a couple of times we went and where the mexican rotary
invited us to come down for the program, the milk program where they,
you know, raised money like mad so they could buy milk or to, to give to
the poor sections. And we did that many times. They would pay all our
expenses to go down there and give concerts, stay 23 days, give um, maybe
some programs within their school system. And
as a, as a result of that we got some the notoriety that way. And some of
the students would come up there,
pursue their educational program. Um talk a little bit about how the music
department overall changed over those years too. Well when I first came to
a sc, it was a very small program, a small number in the faculty, very
good faculty though, very good. Uh, people are good piano uh teachers,
excellent vocal and the theory program was was very high, but it was small
and I don't know if it was, I think the gentleman who was ahead of the
program then was a nice, nice person. He just,
he said, well, you know that we're here. So we wait for them to show up.
Maybe no effort made to try to sell the program. And so it's, that in
itself kept my program is small too, you know, because people don't just
come for the violin, They come for all the rest too. But we had good
teachers and uh, and they were all very good friends. That was a nice
thing about it. We all got along. No, um, you know, talking behind your
back or clicks or anything like that. Gradually when we've got people who
are more ambitious in the administration, part of the music, we started
getting some recruiting efforts underway where they made a real concerted
effort to go out and become known, introduce yourself, you know, appear,
let them know you're interested in them. That kind of an attitude and
approach. And that helped our program. Then we started getting more
students which necessitated more faculty. And as we got more faculty, we
became more um,
desirous of getting people with national reputations so that we did start
getting that, that level of person who was able then to go out and and
concert ties to in various parts of the country. And of course it became
known that they were that they are a faculty member of the Arizona state
and you want to study with that person, you know, you would come here. So
I'd say that between the beginning years of 19, from 1957
until the Gammage years, that was really the only way we had to recruit. I
mean now we had the aura and there's a shine of damage to then. It wasn't
so hard, you know, everybody wanted to come and it really helped the
graduate program where before we, we were strictly undergraduate and we
had a masters, a masters all inclusive and um, but now we were able to get
into a real uh nitty gritty. We are part of the of the music world and
have definitive rated places that you can major in. So it did grow. And I
would say that By the time I left in 1989
I had a big faculty of 70 and probably a 120
530 graduate assistants. And uh and lots of majors. I mean lots of music
majors, Probably one of the large, one of the large music programs in the
country. How did the different directors? How many different directors did
you work under for the department
when I came in the last year of grand fletcher. And then dr wendell writer
, it was then, I can't tell you the number of years, but quite a few years
it grew. He he was a very nice person, not,
you know, not exuberant in his, in his way. He was just very careful,
pleasant, very knowledgeable, highly thought of person.
And then when he had to get out of the program because of Alzheimer's
uh, Dr english took over as an interim department chair, who's a music
education primarily, but it also directed or orchestras in evanston
Illinois before he came here.
And then Dr Andy broke mama and dr brian's mom who were very, very strong
administrators. Those people, all budgets were increasing, Our faculty
numbers were getting, the higher the quality of faculty was was excellent
. I mean, we're getting nationally known people as opposed to just
somebody like Eugene Lombardy, where would knock on his front door to say
, would you like to join the faculty? You know, it wasn't anything like
that. And so that now with our director of the School of Music where it's
uh you know, it's set up like any large conservatory would be where they
have a director and assistant director and uh and people who are chairs of
their various the disciplines within the music, it's very, very well
structured, you know what I mean? And you have something to sell you
really do. So now that I'm sure they're still recruiting, I know that Dr
russell who took my place is still recruiting like mad, but getting higher
quality though, you know, you can, you can be sure we always had a good
scholarship program that was one thing that they were and I don't know who
I can, I can thank for that. But somebody set it up so that the orchestra
had a large number of scholarships. Um,
I think I had a total of 45 scholarships as one of the monastery by the
time I left
and they were, they included all tuition, all the lesson fees plus out of
state. And the beauty of it was that I could break it up in components. I
could have out of 45, I could make that into 90 scholarships where I would
give them only, um, say the out of state tuition, but the in state tuition
and the private lessons are still available. So I could make that into
another one. So I could break it up in any way that I wanted and which
made it real nice. And so we can get some high class students in. Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And what about the different college presidents that you worked under? You
have memories of different ones of them being more supportive of music? Uh
, dr Gammage was, was supportive of music.
I don't think he would have recognized me at any time walking down the
street. But yet we had times that we were together after a concert and
when we had the special soloist and he would come up and introduce or
bring him to my rehearsals. One thing we're always blessed with visitors,
high level visitors, they wanted to show off to the side of the symphony
orchestra that we have in our school here and they would sit for a while
in at our rehearsal. And um Gammage obviously was supportive because he
wanted to make sure that we had a good sound in the hall and that the
right people were hired for that. Um We had some that were not, I mean
they knew we existed, that's all. But I don't know that we got a lot of
support and I don't want to cast a negative. I think the I think that
probably the one that was the most supportive was dr homer dorm, an
absolutely delightful person, a music lover. And I think I made a lot of
points because his brother was a composer and uh and I was able to perform
some of that music for his brother. And um and of course all the Durham
family would come in mass to hear the music that that was composed by one
of the family. And he just dearly loved music and was so supportive. And
and when he tried to sell a S. U, the arts always entered into it. Which
was nice.
How did your career progress then? What other titles or did you take on as
you, you were here for over 30 years, 32 years?
Well, I um, I gradually progressed into being the concert master of the
phoenix symphony. I was with a symphony until 1969. So I had a good 10
years as the concert master. The concert master always acts as the
assistant conductor also. And so in the late 60's I was conducting the
phoenix symphony and all the out of town concerts. The conductors,
many of the conductors would take on positions if they could be part time.
In other words, they'd like to be the conductor of the phoenix symphony,
but also to be the conductor of the Indianapolis. And so they're always
jetting all over the country well. And they didn't want to do out of town
concerts. They don't want to go to Prescott to give a concert and go to
casa grande to give a concert something like that. So that would be fall
on me. And so I got a lot of experience. I mean I grew a lot, I can assure
you as a result of doing that, which made my importance as far as the
students were concerned much higher because I was verse with working with
a professional group for the phoenix area. And as a result of that, it
would also act as a recruiting tool. And we would go to like I say,
Prescott, Flagstaff
Wickenburg, casa grande Tucson and give concerts. Hello, I think was also
another one. And so I got a lot of exposure. And uh, and of course my
program that was bigger. Well, when the program started getting that large
would entail to be having to learn the scores, which is no easy matter
sometimes it wouldn't be what I would have done here today issue. And to
go out and do these and recruiting and all that. It finally got to the
point where I had to make up my mind was I going to go to the symphony
route and we're gonna go to the A. S. You're out and I couldn't do them
both. Well. I became practical there in my thinking. I figured there was
no way that I was going to make Like right now. What is it now? 30,000 a
year. And that's after, I don't know how many years when I was in new york
stra that it was less than half that for me for the concert master, which
was the highest paid besides the conductor. So I decided there's there
isn't any future as far as my future being in the symphony, staying there
all full time for my family. I decided on a S. You and of course I have
not regretted it. But then I stayed on as assistant conductor until I
conducted the, what's called the people's pops concerts. And it was the
Phoenix Symphony one a month for 13 years. Always a new program. So that's
my it was my association then had to drop the symphony and I was strictly
A. S. U. You were there when symphony hall was built. Yes. Yes it was. I
think I was there for the last
eight or 9 years of my my conducting the symphony there uh before I
retired from from the People's Pops concerts. Mm hmm.
During all that time then did you have to give up your own playing the
violin and can't really be conducting and playing too well. No, I kept on
because I had a private class. I still had about 20 violin students and
they still might load with still more than anybody else's. But then they
figured, you know, somebody has to teach these. And so I talked to violin
and we had a quartet on campus called the New Art String Quartet. And uh
we made recordings, we played all over the west Quartet was invited to
Russia play and also to
to Germany,
we we played in L. A quite a bit. And and and the faculty of we had to the
two violins dr Spinoza and I were the two violins and dr majors was a
realist and tuck your assuming was the cellist. And uh we had rehearsals
twice a week of 2.5 hours each. So we kept our playing up. We had to keep
up a good standard there and we had famous soloists come play with us. Yo
yo ma that tell us that came dr persnickety came with when we we recorded
all four of his string quartets and those are on disk and they, you know,
brought in a lot of composers that they were interested in that. So yes,
we had to keep up our proficiency level because if the students feel that
well I can play better than he does. You know why take from him, but they
don't realize that maybe I have some knowledge up here and that, that I
may not be able to play it all right away because I don't have the time
you do to practice. But we had to keep it up so we did, but we had to let
certain things go as I did with the symphony. Uh, the symphony, as I say,
taught me a lot, did a lot for me and helped me and and everything, you
know, in achieving my rank, you know, elevated to the full professor state
status. And, and it all came about as a result of what I had to offer and
you know, you have to give credit where credit is, do you know the people
that gave that to me as I got it.
Did your parents live long enough to see you become successful in music
and actually earn a living. My father was finally became aware of the fact
that I was gaining some notoriety and in music. Um, all through my uh, my
uh, well like my war years that I was playing and that was keeping me out
of combat, which he was forever grateful. And the fact that I was able to
to do a lot in music after I got out of the service and after I got out of
my schooling Unfortunately he died in an automobile crash in 1956 so it
wasn't too far. But my mother lived a good 15 or so years more than that
also. You know that came to the to the valley view. A few of my concerts
and all that proudest you could be and
they were at least she was able to realize that the choice was was a good
one, you know, and as a result pleased with the outcome. Mhm. You weren't
starving. That's right. I wasn't starving. You mentioned that you were
able to progress to full professor. When did that? How long did that take
? Okay. Well it's it just took the minimum in each rank. I think I was
assistant for three years An associate for five years and then dr bryan's
room. I just felt that I should be a full professor, you should have the
stature to be able to carry on the program that that he wanted to have
here too. And so I was fortunate that way too. Mhm.
Let's see. Are there any other particular things that happened here at A.
S. U. That you wanted to be sure and tell us about. I noticed you've
written down some notes here. Um I did. Well I always have been grateful
for for what I could attribute the success of the program. Uh I felt that
for one thing we had a good faculty we had we had what I call an artist
faculty as far as the performance end of it, composition. We had world
renowned composers and residents
in music education. We had, we got, we had the best. So we had a really
good product to sell. That in turn brought in good students and then the
good students produced fine performances and defined performances somehow
or other would get out to others which would act as a recruiting tool and
would bring other good students. And uh, and it sort of got to where in my
preaching moments into rehearsals or whether it's during my times of
advisement because I I was a graduate advisor for
20 Some years, I guess for the master's program in instrumental music. I
would always say it's, you know,
the thing that you should do or tell your students and I would tell my
recruiting students that choose the school that you, that you I think is a
good school and then find out which of those schools has a good music
program because that's where you want to go finding out about the faculty.
And then when you come here, this is the choice that you make, why be
sure to to be serious about it all. But remember, no matter where you go
to school you as a string student or something, the most success will come
to the one who makes the best use of the practice room if you don't spend
the time in the practice room. I don't care if you're studying under. It's
oct Perlman or yo yo ma or whom if you aren't a sponge, soaking it all in
and then trying to produce it, you're not going to amount to anything, it
doesn't matter who you're exposed to. So the years and hours and time
spent in a practice room is the most important. But make sure it's a
school that you want to recognize, school, school that you want that has
the program and the faculty that you want and then you put it to fruition
and bring it to fruition.
It's like good advice. Mhm. See how have you talked a little bit about how
a issue has changed. But we talked a little more about how it changed from
the time that you first came here, first came to Arizona became aware of
it until today when you retired. Well, I, when I first came here, I looked
upon a F. C. Down the road there and I didn't have much contact with that
. I would go to some of the concerts but that would be about it. Um It was
a nice school. It had,
I thought a lot a lot of students, you know, it was almost as big as
phoenix union and uh and all that. But I noticed that the growth that was
occurring was was so encouraging. You know, then from the time that I
joined and became more interested in it. But I noticed that the quality is
getting better, getting higher, there were more programs available, there
was more attention being page to what was being offered and who was doing
the offering, you know and who are the people that were imparting the
information for the students to to take on. Um and and I realized you know
one day you wake up and you think well gee how long have I been here? It's
it's it's nice the way things are growing because you realize all of a
sudden that you're talking to somebody from new york and saying who are
you from A. S. U. Oh boy, I've heard a lot of good things about A. S. U.
And you wonder is that you know you stay home so much that you don't
realize that there may be other people are hearing about you and we
noticed the people that are applying for positions, I mean the choices
were fantastic and then the numbers are applying were awesome, you know
I'd be on the personnel committee, I think I was on for about 21 years and
all the the applications that would have to go through and it was hard to
decide. Very hard to decide and you wonder these people of stature
applying. It was wonderful and so that growth was just so impressive. It
just couldn't help but make you a better teacher too because you knew that
you you were among some elite and that was thrilling. That was thrilling
to see the growth the, and it was ultra thrilling to see what Gammage
Auditorium did. But I think the thing that really did the most was when it
became a university, when all of a sudden when, when it was Arizona state
University, uh, you'd have to remind people about that and then they, oh
yeah, that's right. And it was, it was nice, you know, it was nice to the
effect. There was an automatic recruiting tool that you didn't have to do
anything about it. All you gotta do is mention it. And then that made for
the desire for people who want to be part of it as it is now as you can
see the number of people that are on our faculty and that they represent
the best of the best and how fortunate we are, I think we've had some
unfortunate things happened as a result of maybe lower pay scale or
something like that. But some people decide, well, you know, I have a
choice of doing this and doing that. It's nice to have a little money
because I have to eat, take care of my family. But it's nice to be part of
this program. You know, that's just going so wonderfully well, you know,
it's just blossoming like man. And so that's been exciting. And I've
noticed that even after having been out now since uh 89, you know what,
what's happening on campus, you know, it's just wonderful. It makes me
feel that when I left it was that 5500, you don't need comparison. It
really isn't. But it's just the idea that the growth is just phenomenal
to ask mind. I was going to ask you David School are his name
director of, of brady damage memorial auditorium. He actually leave the
faculty or did he stay on the department of music? Well, at first, uh, he
, he tried to keep both programs going. I mean be head of the damage, but
also to be the director of choirs. Well, eventually he had to let go piece
by piece. He had to let go of the, the, um, the large town gown group.
Coral union. Yes, somebody else. An assistant had to take care of that and
then gradually had to let go of the concert choir. And finally he became a
full fledged director of the Gammage Auditorium. Yes, I know. What I was
asking you about was the, the students that you see coming into from high
school. Um, and we keep hearing more and more that schools are cutting
back on music music programs and certainly in elementary, but definitely
in high school to how do you feel about that? Well, of course, I'm sorry
to see that. I'm sorry to see that the program, the music program is being
cuts in some completely and in some shortened or made into smaller, but I
think what's keeping it alive is the private teacher. There are still
enough young people who are desirous of learning and may be introduced to
the instruments or to music in their elementary programs and they
sometimes go to a high school that doesn't have a good enough orchestra
too to have them participate. There are always some though, that, that's a
regardless of the level I want to play. And of course because of them, the
program grows, you know, when you have good players, they be getting good
players. And, but I really, I've thought about this a lot, a lot too. I
really think it's being kept alive by the private teacher. There are
enough people taking private lessons and our community community is big
enough that there are, the percentage is amazing how many people there are.
I judge a lot of competitions still where individuals come and audition
for either replacement or for college scholarship or for state rank and
all that. It's amazing what's going on and come from schools that maybe
their private schools, they don't even have a program and here they are.
They're just going at its on individuals participating in youth orchestra
and things like that. But that's it. You see the community orchestras
playing a big part of tremendous and we're very fortunate that our area
has a number of community orchestras that it has the Tempe symphony
orchestras. I don't know if you've heard them or seen them, but it's huge.
It's 100 and 2800 and 25 people every year. And the, the mesa orchestra
is getting better all the time. The san Carlos, which is the Chandler
orchestra, Chandler Gilbert is doing very well. It's not quite the Mesa
level, but it's doing very, very well. Scottsdale has had an orchestra for
quite a while, not big, you know, but it has an offering. I was conductor
of the Sun City Symphony Orchestra for six years. And the only reason I
quit conducting there is because I was getting tired of the, of the
freeway problem at the time, there was always closure and I'd have to
start out at 4 30 in order to make under 7 30 rehearsal because I was
always being held up in traffic for some reason or other. And, but they
have a big growing program. It's not called the Sun City anymore. It's the
West Valley when I had it, it was all strictly, you had to be a Sun City
in to be a part of it. And uh, and the gentleman took over after me and
decided that he wanted to have a, an orchestra competition with the
phoenix symphony. And, and so consequently it's not son sitting. And other
than the fact that they rehearsed on Sin City grounds, that kind of thing.
But there are lots of opportunities to play. I mean there are extra that
I didn't even know about. I know Glendale has one but I haven't heard, I
haven't been able to go to any concert because I haven't, they don't
advertise themselves. But when you think you have all this opportunity in
Tempe and Mesa and Scottsdale and Chandler Chandler Gilbert, uh, plus
having youth orchestras that you can belong to all over the valley,
tremendous opportunities. I'm going to ask you about the youth because you
talked about starting the youth orchestra with the phoenix symphony if the
young people are continuing to be involved. Yes, they certainly they are.
And Mesa has a, a youth group to in fact, it only goes to the first year
of high school. I think they don't take anybody any higher than that. But
as Maybe seven or 8 little satellite orchestras that come out of this of
this group. Of course Mace has a tremendous string program, Probably the
best in in uh, area. Mm hmm. Um, what advice do you give to young people
that are considering what to do with their lives. And you talked about
part of deciding what school to go to. But what if you're just trying to
decide in music music or or if music would be either thing or maybe
something else? Well, it's amazing how many of the very fine
instrumentalists, our students that are maybe majoring in. Uh, well, I had
an architecture major as my concert master in my A. S. U. Orchestra, there
wasn't a music major in a school that was as good as this girl it was. And
and there was another one that was a an engineer, an engineering major. A
girl also Concert master, nobody could touch her and she was so good. So a
person like that, how can you advise? I can say we'll get out of
engineering. I mean go the route of the violinist when you auditioned for
an orchestra position And you get there and there are 200 in line to get
in for one position, you know, or a trumpet player, you know that were
they flute player in the same way. And I just have so many people that
apply. So you have to be honest to him, he said about you know, you want
to be careful. I always say yeah if you want to major in music and you're
just such a die hard that you will only major in music
as much as I hate to say it, don't go in as a performance major only get
your teaching credential to, you may never teach, you may never need to
you see, but the time may come when that will be the only outlet for a
music person is to teach music. You can chill, you can still do like I did
I have my degree is in music education slash performance
and uh you know it's it's more music education than in his performance. I
mean more hours spent in school so that it's it's the route that I chose.
I've always been fortunate in being in a city where there was a good
school for me to teach in and a good orchestra for me to play in at the
same time. Now the people in school see that I'm playing in this orchestra.
So there
they're thinking of me is higher than it would be if I wasn't involved.
And I said, well, how come you're not playing in the symphony? I see, well
, I am playing in the symphony and then the symphony people know about
your work in the schools and so it works both ways. So to me, it's the
best of all worlds to be a music major music education plus performance.
Nobody says it's just because you're a music education that you shouldn't
practice, that you shouldn't try to make yourself be the best violinist,
clarinetist trumpeter in the world. Because all it is is how many hours
you spend in the practice room remember? And as a result, that's what
makes you good. But uh be be be smart, be wise about how you approach it.
And the reason I say that is because there were so many cases where a
person was a Diehard said, nope, I'm not going to teach in schools. I'm
going to be performing major. That's fine. Five years later they come back
, Oh, it's nice to see you. What are you here because I'm here to get my
teaching credential See you. You know, you might as well take it now while
you have no responsibility as far as family. Uh, and maybe you're on
scholarship and you can achieve all this at at little cost to you, so to
speak. And it doesn't hurt a family or anything like that. And then you
have that credential and you can, you may have to upgrade it every once in
a while by taking a course and doing some some teaching. But you have it
and it's it's insurance. You know, it's nice to have insurance.
Yes.
Okay. And I think I'm not wrapped up unless there was anything you wanted
to tell us just to wrap up. No, I've enjoyed this session very much. It
brought back a lot of memories. Um, I
I really feel like there were times when people were trying to advise me
out of out of music. I don't mean my my family, my folks. I mean people
who would think that I was wasting my time and teaching, you know that I
should be performing and things like that and I thank them for the
compliment and all that. But I knew what I wanted and as a result, enjoyed
a nice life
combination. Thank you. Thank you very much.
You
sound like you got the best of both worlds. Well I did. Yes, fortunate,
veryfortunate