recording
to start off. The first thing I want to do is introduce on the tape that
we're conducting a living history video project interview for the issue
retirees association and my name is pam Stevenson. I'll be doing the
interview. And our videographer today is Manny Garcia and we are at the
visitor information center of a issue at rural road and Apache and today
is monday january 30th 2000 and six. And I like to have you introduce
yourself. Can you just give me your full name? My name is Margaret is alot
G I S O L O. Good. When were you born? Where were you born? Just for some
background. Let's see. I was born in Indiana in 1914.
Sounded like a title of the song. I was born in indiana
was born in Nebraska. But uh did you grow up there on a farm or in the
city? My folks had a grocery store and uh sometimes I helped there you
know and let's see
high school was fairly close. All I had to do was go across the street and
just a little bit of short distance. So that was handy. A small town,
small town. What was the name of the Blandford? B L A N F o R D.
Indiana is a town that's still there. It's still, there are a lot of those
little towns disappeared over the years. Yes right now I think it's still
there. Yeah. Right. Did you have brothers and sisters? Yes I did. I had,
let's see how shall I start? My brother Tony was the oldest and then my
brother joe. Uh my brother dom. And then my sister. Louise
and mary and myself. How did I do
understand that? Yeah. I waited till everybody else. God.
Huh.
Well tell me what, what was it a small school then? If it was a small town
, it was a small town. Um,
So I I went up through the 8th grade there And then I had to go to Clinton
, which was about seven miles from my house. There was a bus would take us.
And so then I I graduated. I did that by next degree program. There. Were
you a good student? Oh, I don't know. Sure. Sure I was. What were your
favorite subjects? Let me see.
Well this is not a subject, but I like to play sports?
Um I don't know. I guess I like hygiene. What what sports did you like?
Well, my brother taught me how to play baseball
and then I learned how to play tennis.
So in my later years I was playing tennis, but he taught me I was actually
baseball was the only thing then going in that small town.
Was it unusual for a girl to be playing baseball? I spoke for some, some
places. It was some people and maybe it was, but it was a small town and
everybody knew everybody. That's one of those things. So growing up, did
you have any ideas of what you wanted to be when you grew up?
Can you answer that for me? Didn't you want to be a teacher?
Maybe? I didn't decide that until later, I guess. I don't know. Well, did
you plan on going to college after high school? Yes, I did. Yes, I did. I
went to Terre haute indiana to college because we didn't have it in our
small town. Had your other people in your family gone to college before?
Uh, no, they didn't get to college, but there's my sister Louise, she
didn't get to college. My brother Tony was the oldest student and now I
think I was the only one. Why did you decide to go to college?
Do you know why I just mm hmm. I guess it was an urging on the part of the
family and all that. It was a good thing to do to increase your education
, you know? And so I think they were the ones who urged me to go
and I'm glad they did. So you like college then? What was your major?
Was it Pete? I guess it was physical, physical education because my
brother Tony taught me how to play baseball. So it's kind of a logical
thing. And then what do you plan to do after you got out of college?
Um, let's see.
I guess I wanted to,
I guess it wasn't getting into a doctorate I guess. But I got more
moore college education. Terra haute indiana.
Did you get a job after that? Or what what you do with all that education
?
Did I stick it in my pocket? Um
Let's see.
I think I got a job in terra haute indiana.
I think that's what it was. And you had your major in pe physical
education. So what was your first job after that? Mhm. I think that I
thought I think in paris Illinois which was not too far from my hometown.
What were you teaching? I was teaching ah
sports
and
let's see there was something else. I think I was teaching too. The
primary primary sports. That seemed to be my area high school. There was a
high school. Yes. Yes.
Well how did you happen to come out to Arizona?
I think Arizona called me.
Did I know some people here pulled me here probably, didn't you imagine?
Yeah, that was right. That's it. Yeah. I had some friends here and I came.
Have you been here before to visit them or No, I don't think so. Just
like the idea.
So what do you remember what year it was that you came out here?
Was it before the war? After the war? Beth has it. She knows I have a
short term memory. So
1553
1953. Okay 1953. What did you do during the war years? What were you doing
? Um Let's see. Get into the navy. I got into the Navy and
I was sent to texas and I was there for some time
and I don't know if they sent me someplace else? I feel like I just, they
did send me someplace else when I got home. Remember that? What did they
call the women that were in the navy then?
Ah,
I can't answer that just now. But there's one thing I just dawned on me.
The men, they enlisted men are supposed to salute officers. Okay. I was an
officer. They did not want to salute the women,
but they had, so they kind of go like this, you know? Yeah.
So you went in as an officer because you had your college education. What
were you doing in the Navy?
Well, let's see. What did I do in the navy? I think various things.
You're testing my memory. Uh, and the doctors tell me I have a short term
memory. So, uh,
trying to think now and I can remember talking to that one fellow because
he knew what the score was and what I was going to have to do.
What, why did you decide to go into the navy? Well, it was wartime.
Everybody was being ah, you know,
wanting to help the country. And I think that's why I went in
and the men and I was an officer. But the enlisted men, you know, are
supposed to salute the officers.
And they would, but they go a lot like like that. You know,
they did not like to salute the women opposite.
Were there? Very many of you women on the base where you were? I think
there was a good handful of women. Did you ever go overseas or No I didn't
go overseas.
Most of the time I was in texas,
corpus Christi texas. Okay. Yeah
yeah most of the time was there
did you make some good friends while you were in the Navy? Uh Yeah uh I
played tennis. So the people who played tennis
got my tennis in.
Huh? Can you remember something? I would like to tell the story about your
commanding officer told you to show up on the tennis court. Oh yes thank
you. I I was a tennis player and the commanding officer was a tennis
player. Mhm. And uh he said uh
uh well first of all he and he said you play tennis? I said yes sir yes
sir. And he said well you'll be on the court tomorrow morning, eight
o'clock or whatever it was. You know I said well let me check you be on
the court tomorrow morning at eight o'clock. Yes sir. That then is that
yeah. Were you on the court? Oh yeah I was on the court and then we played
in every morning for quite a while I think maybe he got transferred or
something.
Are you a pretty good player?
She's not in your head. I'm fairly athletic. So I've played pretty much
yeah so when did you get out of the navy? How long did you serve? Uh Oh
boy. Do you have that answer for you? Four years. That sounds about, that
sounds four years. Yeah, that sounds about right. Where did you, what did
you do when you got out of the,
you're really testing my memory. It is not that good. What I do best sure
is better than
when did you?
Oh
yeah, it was after the service I guess. I went to Columbia University, got
my degree
uh in new york city. New york city. That must have been an experience for
you. It was a good experience. Have you been to new york before?
I don't think so. I don't know. Is this where you started dancing? I took
some dancing probably. But what was new york like that time after the war
years? Well uh
it's hard for me to say. I it was, I know it was a busy time and uh ah I
didn't know people were looking for jobs. One thing
ah I guess that's about as much as I know I can recall on that. What did
you, what did you think of new york when you went there? It's a big city,
not the small town I came from, from a small town, everybody knew
everybody and not that way in new york city, however, but I I made friends
easily and so
I got along just fine. The ah
I was thinking of the teachers. What did you go there to study?
Ah My mind is slow this morning. Beth I I did get a degree. Their master's
degree, they're
okay, I guess that's true, that's true. Most of the dancing tell us about
that. Not ballroom but the performing art of modern dance, that's where
I'd like to say it. But performing art art please
of dance. Yeah. So tell me about how that how that happened. Did you get
involved with dance? Mhm. Perfume memories. But at the moment I don't know
whether he took any dance classes
when you're doing your bathroom? Mm hmm. Probably not. I had always been
an athlete though. And uh then the dance was just another aspect really of
it and I think that's how it happened.
Mm Yeah. Movement. You know,
did you do any performing in new york?
Ah
It seems like
there was a place north of new york city
where we would go up there at times and uh I may be, may have done some of
it then. Bennington. Bennington, that's very good. They have Pennington,
Was that a theater or what kind of a place that I didn't want to? It was a
performing art's place, yeah. Uh huh. You got your master's at Columbia
then? Uh or was it N Y U I'm thinking about? N. Y. U. No. Yeah. And what
what area was that in? Ah let's see my master's degree.
I didn't know was that the performing arts,
I think I know it was an image.
Yes, ma'am. Yes or not. So
yeah. And I would go in the summertime and it was held not in the city,
but north of the city. They own some land there.
And uh,
that's where we danced. Yeah. Well, tell me about coming to Phoenix. What
was Phoenix like when you came here in the 50s?
Mm hmm. Beth knows I have a short term memory. You're going to help me on
this bed. Yeah,
I'll have my turn later.
What would the streets pay?
Yes, I don't remember that either. Did you come from new york to phoenix?
No. My home state was indiana when you went home in between. Yes,
but I did teach in pennsylvania. Indiana. Pennsylvania and my home state
was indiana
could Yes, you could. So you don't remember what your first impression was
when you came to be expected what you thought of Phoenix in 1953,
I guess at that time I was particularly interested in sports.
And my brother Tony, the oldest played uh, sports, played baseball. So he
taught me how to play baseball. So I played some baseball,
it was on the boys team. It wasn't a girls team. And I did all right. Go
ahead, 1928. Sure. Talk a little bit about playing on the boys team.
Okay. You're on a winning team. Tell them about it. Going to Chicago. Oh
see I've forgotten. Beth you tell her that I forgot. Oh, see, I don't
remember. 12. Well, I have a bad memory, you know. So you're gonna have to
help me. Let's see. Uh Yes. I was asked to go to Chicago. Uh the team with
the team. That's right. Yes, we were winning. But did we finish? All right.
The run? That's right. Beth you should tell the story because I forgot.
But I need your help.
I got the winning run. That's right. I got the winning run. And what
happened because of that when the team won the other team? Oh yes, they
registered a protest because they said I was a girl and I wasn't eligible.
What team was it was a Chicago. It was Chicago team I think. But it was
american legion. Yeah. Baseball. Yeah. American legion. Baseball. Right.
Right. Good thing. My my second memory is here.
Yeah, it was american legion. And the baseball commissioner.
Oh yes. He signed a baseball that. What do you mean? He signed the
baseball and gave it to me. And but I have now given it to
Cooperstown Baseball Hall of Fame. Mm hmm.
And
remember
because they changed the rules and when we were not allowed to play
afterwards.
Right. I didn't say that before. You know, it didn't and they said it just
caused too much trouble because they had to have separate dressing rooms
and all that kind of stuff and made it more difficult for them to do the
job I guess.
But I squeezed in before they remembered anything about that or they knew
that women would want to do that? That's right. That's the primary cause I
think, Can you tell her about playing baseball from Mark Allen when you
were 15?
I've never forgotten about that john nelson,
I am not. Mark nelson had a girls team out of Chicago. This is
professional. Professional. Oh yeah. So I earned some money
to help me through school by playing baseball on her team.
And so that was helpful to my family. Anyway, they didn't have to come up
with all the money. You must have been a pretty good player. What position
did you play? Uh was I did I play second base for them part time?
Someplace I played first base. I know. And I may have played 2nd base for
her. Mhm. But anyway, first base and they're both. I played both sometime
or other anyway. Pretty important positions.
Well let's get back to you. You're moving to phoenix? Was it a big
decision to come to phoenix?
Yes.
Why did I come here in the first place? Was this where the president
offered you the job? Can you tell that the president of university offered
me the job? What job was it at Arizona state? Yeah. And so how long was I
there? What was your job when the first job? When you came here? What was
your job title?
I I think it was in the area of physical education. Okay, instructor. I
think you're right. Do you remember what president it was that offered you
the job?
I can almost see him. Nothing. Right now. When you arrived, hadn't he
recently died?
Mm hmm.
You may be right.
So then there was a new president that came in and you were concerned
about honoring your offer because there was no letter 35. You haven't
gotten anything in writing. And when you got here, the president,
That was 1953.
She started in 54. Okay.
We can look up which president? That was the year.
Okay. What was the university like when you wasn't able to call the
University of the college
college? How big was it? What was it, what did it look like? Yeah.
Remember is better than mine. I wasn't here Margaret. I'm sorry.
Ah let's see,
mm hmm.
I knew it grew in in numbers, you know. And just to start short time after
I got there.
Where was your office?
Your first office?
I think my office was on the first floor.
There were two floors. What building with the A. S. U. At west
in the fifties. Mhm. More building was it? The more building? Maybe so?
Maybe so. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
What did you teach?
Uh Well I taught dance? Right.
And uh
what else did I teach? I thought some sports and I thought some sports too.
So dance was part of the physical education department. Yes. Mhm.
Yeah, I wouldn't people came and took dance, Was that just for fun or
could they major in dance? Or how did that work? You know, they they got
credit for the course?
Ah I don't know how they use it exactly.
Um
They got credit for it.
It was a credit course.
Mhm.
But could you get a degree in dance back then?
I think I got the degree program in later, didn't I, 1969 69. I I said
that the degree program up and tell me about, how did you do that? Well,
um I think I checked around the various universities around the country
and what the requirements were and out of that, I made what was logical
for our school as a requirement,
but I did check around and I know that I checked around David in New york
city because I knew somebody there.
So I checked around and then decided from all of that. What what to
require,
What do people here at the university think of the idea of drinking is a
degree?
Uh Who was that man on the committee? I don't know his name. It's a great
story.
What?
Oh yes, he said, what are we gonna have next to a degree in gymnastics?
Yes, that was his. So you had to have a committee to approve it. Oh yes.
Oh yes, and that's what he said, but nevertheless it went through, we got
the degree program in. Do you remember what year that was 1969,
So before that it was just part of you couldn't get a degree in dance, You
just took PE and got a degree in physical education. That's right. Mhm.
What difference did it make to be able to offer a degree in dance? Why was
that important?
Well, I guess I thought that I felt that
to dance was kind of important for the body, for the mind, you know, and
it shouldn't be missed
at least. That was my opinion. Anyway, I can understand about the body,
but how does the dance help the mind?
Well, there's a lot of thinking going on. You know, you have to go from
maybe sometimes one movement to another. And uh and there are different
times when you hold a movement versus another time when you're not holding
the movement, you know, that sort of thing. Okay.
Why would it be important to be able to get a degree in that and dance
certification to teach in public schools? Okay. Thanks. Beth yes.
People then could get a degree and teaching the schools, teach and teach
dance? Mhm.
What or the things that you've accomplished here on campus. Can you tell
us any interesting stories about things that happened with your dance
program
that your mind is better memory than mine
maybe tell the story
In the early 50s,
Charles Lewis.
Yes,
it would be better if you told it because I'm trying to remember and I
can't
when you take students off. Oh yes, yes.
What happened when you tried to go to a restaurant?
I'd forgotten that myself that we couldn't we could
sit together. What was it they didn't they wouldn't serve? Oh that's right
, go ahead and finish it because
we'll talk to beth and later we're gonna talk to you now. I want you to
tell us the story. Tell us the story about you took your dance group off
campus, different ones
and they wouldn't service. What was the reason they did Charles was black
? Oh that's right, Charles Lewis was black and they wouldn't service.
We just left. I think we all stood up and just left. And where was that?
Is that in Paracel? And I know you're phoenix because I did teach in paris
Benton gave me the one or the other? Yeah tip your phoenix somehow? I feel
like it's phoenix.
Uh huh. I've heard similar stories and Tucson,
could you tell the story about how you got your first peacock
teaching dance history you?
Oh I think you ought to tell it.
Mhm. We can put you on the mind and we'll do that after we finish with you.
You want to tell us the stories first.
Well let me see um
in the middle ages.
The people with money
would have the food brought to them with the peacock draw, pulling the
cart with the fruit on it and uh that was a bit unique. You know, it's
Danny peacocks drawing food around here.
Uh huh. Uh I guess that was about it on that.
Oh well that's right. When I retired, the students gave me a peacock,
a real live peacock and I had it for a long time. What was somebody killed
him? Mm hmm. Yeah, I think somebody killed it.
I guess they thought it was too noisy because they are very noisy and I've
never heard of peacocks pulling carts though, I didn't know you could
train them to do that. Yeah, they did in the Middle Ages. I think it was
the Middle Ages. Yeah. Mhm. So did you like peacocks? Is that why the
students, did they know you like peacocks? Well, I guess I talked about it
in class
and so they decided, I don't know if it's a christmas present or something.
They went some place in town where they had peacocks and got me a peacock.
And so the time they presented that I think the whole class sort of stood
in two lines and then the one with the peacocks in the back and then they
walked in with a peacock between the two lines and the rest of the class
and game show gave me the peacock, what did you think? Well, I thought it
was great. The only thing at the time, I didn't know what it's going to do
with it. But I think I learned a little bit about pickups because somebody
not to there was a peacock farm not too far from where I lived. So I found
out how to feed it and stuff. So that helped.
I want to see something else. Well did you have a special harness made?
Yes I did.
Yes
I decided to have a harness so I could keep track of them pick up. And I
went into the store where they made things stuff like that. And I said I
would like to have a harness for a peacock please. They looked at me and
thought I was crazy.
Is that my story more? Oh yes. So they did they made one for me. What did
your peacock think of it? Well I think he handled it pretty well don't you
think? Or is she? You put it on him and he just shook once and stepped out.
Okay. All right. That's right. That's right. That's right. Put it on him
and he just shook himself
and there was the harness on the ground, shook it off of themselves.
They're too big. Well unusual for him just because he wasn't used to. Mhm.
So. Mhm. Mhm. What is it that that you remember most about the time you
spent here at a S. U.
Mhm.
Well after one thing I think I enjoyed meeting new friends
and
I guess studying new things.
My Lady Sylvia.
Where did the dancers perform when you came to a. S. U. Over in what it
was a building called more building. The more building they had a uh floor
and they sometimes sometimes had performances there. So it was already
ready for my dad's class
two we had in the more building
so that when they built the Gammage Auditorium
with that being built. Yes I do.
Yeah.
Well beth come on.
Oh that's right. I was on the committee that helped build a planet. Uh huh.
That's right. They were going to leave something out. What was it?
Well I think that was the other in the charter dance performances were in
the chart and the charter building
damage. Oh yes that's right okay. So tell me you were what was this
committee that you were?
Ah
I don't mind sitting here in my mind is a blank
speak for me Beth
Okay. Do you remember when when damage opened? What what was it like? I do
kind of remember when it opened? Yeah it was a big affair. Ah
I think everybody would was going around to see what rooms were wearing
and where the studio was.
Right damage. Oh pes building. Yeah. Oh yeah okay it's been a very busy
year.
What's busy here but a fun year? Yeah I'm here. What did you think about
the Gammage Auditorium when that opened? Did you did you ever get to
perform there?
You want to answer that? Mhm. I don't know whether you personally.
Yes
performing but by then you weren't performing anymore. I don't think so. I
don't think so. Yeah. How was it for for dancers? What did they enjoy
performing there? What was it like for dancers to perform it?
Well, I think they had a good feeling about it. Maybe had because it was a
special place. It's a special place.
And uh
what made it special?
Well the space, it was an excellent space
for it and I think that made it special
and then to get to performing damage was special. See ah
was damage on the board?
Was he ever on the board?
No damage himself. Greater damage was named after him. He had passed away.
You may be right. Perfect heaven. I think I met her. Yeah. Okay damage
right. Yeah. Yeah. What was she like? I didn't know her as well. It just
seemed very nice and or as well. Yeah. Anything else that you want to tell
us about your time here, Koroleva. She's got the memory. I don't have the
memory. She's got the memory.
I think you should tell them that have been honored several times.
I don't remember Indiana State. Stay back Indiana State. I graduated from
indiana State University.
Oh yes
in their hall of Fame. Tell me about it.
Why don't you tell
and you have an honorary degree from indiana state. That's true.
I I have an honorary degree from uh
indiana state. You've been inducted into the national italian american
Sports Hall of Fame. Can you say that all back to her? Mhm. Have been
inducted, silly there in the italian
national national italian Hall of Fame. Sports Hall of Fame. Right. Sports
Hall of Fame. There's some pretty famous people in that hole George. Yeah.
As a matter of fact I met joe DiMaggio and I said Chicago playing
baseball. Yeah that's right. They weren't on the same team with him. That
wasn't
no. Oh I mean that was earlier earlier. He was before he was a yankee. A
yankee. Ryder was born in.
Why don't you tell her about the back. Bye. Oh that's right, I forgot
about that.
Ah The best you can do this better than I can.
We'll get deathly. Uh
let's see if this was in Chicago wasn't it? In Chicago.
Oh and I went to, to the hotel
but I was saying and the person behind the desk, oh by the way, I've got
something for you. Oh bay Bruce left this for you. It's a little bad that
he signed but I still have.
Yeah, I was, I was great while walking in there. Hey. Oh I've got
something for you Babe Ruth left. Have you met Babe Ruth? I don't think I
had, I don't think I have met him. Had. I bet I don't think so. How did he
know about you? Well there was a little publicity in the paper because I
was I played baseball and played baseball in my hometown. My brother Tony
taught me how and all that business and so you were famous already? Well,
I don't know. We're going around somehow.
And uh yeah, so we I lived we lived in a small town in indiana and the
only thing they played there was baseball and my brother Tony played and
he taught me how to play. That's how I got into it. Like he played pretty
well. Well I guess I was I've been pretty well coordinated. And so that
helped. When did you first start to dance? When did you first where Yes,
you want to answer that?
Probably when I started to teach I think
and I started to teach. I think it's when I went into dance
because I was interested in giving the students as much material as I
could, you know, different kinds of material.
And so I think that's why I did that,
that certainly led to a lot of greater things.
Some. Anyway. Yeah. What advice do you have for young people today that
are trying to decide what kind of career they want or what they want to do
with their life. What do you advise them?
That's a biggie?
Well, uh,
I would guess whatever they want to go into it into, they should have a
degree of excellence in that area. I don't I don't think that they want to.
Yeah.
Ah Going to an area as a professional and they don't know anything about
it. Of course that's obvious I'm sure. But it's the only thing I could
think of.
If you want to come up with something we'll ask beth later. Okay, anything
else you want to tell us about the time you spent here at issue that you
think it's important for people to know?
Mm hmm.
Mhm.
They don't just tell me I have a short term memory. I'll have to tell you
that. So I have already said that. You see it start to remember. I didn't
remember that already said that. Ah. Mhm.
So I have some sort of excuse.
Uh Tell me something better.
You were awarded the A. S. U. Distinguished Teaching Award in 197. Very
high. But you've got to know all about it. I'd forgotten all about it.
What years, 79,
That's given the Distinguished Teacher Award for the University of Arizona
State. Got it. Got it. Right, so that the students give you that award
nominated her the whole department
university. Mhm. Mhm.
And I like that. I bet to be nominated by your students in that department.
You must have liked Arizona, you came out here and you stayed here for
over 50 years. What do you what do you like about Arizona? Well I made
good friends.
Ah Here's one
and well I actually I you know I like the weather here. What happens here
? Actually? I'm from indiana. So we gotta have cold weather there. So it's
nice to be in an area of it had warmer weather for one thing and it was
new, you know, and since that's a challenge as well.
Mm hmm,
mm hmm. What to leave out. Do you want to tell him how old you are?
I can't even, I can't even remember that. What am I 91 91? Oh, okay.
That's
that's a milestone right there. That's why I can't remember. I guess
that's good. Thank
you very much for coming over and spending some time with us. Well, you're
very welcome. I hope I've given you enough material. I don't know. So Okay.