WEBVTT

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 I was a professor for a lot of years. I can talk so, but I'll try to try

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to keep the answers relatively short.
Well let me just start off by

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identifying on the tape that today is
friday january 12th of 2000 and

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seven. And we're here at the community
services building at A S. U. To do

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an interview for the Living History
video project of the Arizona State

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University retirees association. I'm
pam Stephenson doing to interview our

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videographer is manny Garcia and I
like to let you give your full name. My

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name is Harold Iran and I retired at A
S. U. In Oh I think it was 19 89.

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So some time ago. Some time ago. Well
we'd like to start these interviews

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at the beginning. Alright, so you
start telling me when you were born and

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born in 1931 Pittsburgh pennsylvania,
went to school in pennsylvania but

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went to high school in a little town
in southern indiana, just about oh 50

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miles north of Louisville Kentucky
called Seymour indiana and graduated

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from high school there went from there
to indiana University. I spent five

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years approximately. I got a
bachelor's degree in management and a NBA.

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Well I didn't quite get the N. B. A.
When I left, I left fairly suddenly

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because of the korean conflict and
they finally granted me the degree

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while I was in the service because I
was only of course short or something

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when I left and got out of the service
and um then worked for a while and

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then my wife and I and one child at
that point moved to east Lansing

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michigan michigan state University, It
was on the faculty there for five

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years until 1961. Let's go back and
talk a little bit more growing up here.

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You were born in pennsylvania, right,
Pittsburgh pennsylvania

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in the insurance business in
pennsylvania worked for, well it's, we now

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know them as american international
group, but it was the old National

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Union fire insurance and moved there
for basically job reasons, Job

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reasons and it was a good, it was a
good town to grow up in small town

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like 9000 population, one high school
To motion picture theaters. It was

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just, it was just a nice place to grow
up in the, in the 1950s. Yeah, it's

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basically the major town in the
county, so all of the shopping and the

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agriculture is done for the whole
county there, we get back there every

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once in a while, but like many of
those towns, they have not uh weathered

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very well. Um they've built new
shopping centers on the outskirts of town

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and it's just decimated the downtown
district. It's uh we walk down there

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, oh we were there about three years
ago, I walked down the main street to

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main streets and I swear every third
building was boarded or storefront

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was boarded up etcetera etcetera
because the retailer just can't compete

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with, you know, there's a walmart
superstore on the edge of town and some

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big stores like that down there
anyway, it was a good place to grow up.

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Very good place to grow up. So you,
your father was in the insurance

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business. Right, right. Your mother,
what did she just stay home? She was

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just a homemaker basically. Uh He was
in the insurance business but it was

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the property and casualty, not not
life insurance, not that there's

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anything wrong with life insurance,
but A I. G. Is really a property

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casualty company. Yeah. Brothers and
sisters, no brothers, no sisters.

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Married uh Dorothy Everton in Seymour
indiana and she has no brothers and

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sisters either. And but we're we both
graduated from Shields High School

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in Seymour indiana. We've known each
other since high school, well not

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really, she was a year behind me and I
really didn't know her. I basically

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met her at Indiana University. She was
a freshman and I was a sophomore

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and just went from there. And uh we uh
I've told people June of 19 54 was

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a pretty significant month because the
one Sunday um we graduated, she

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graduated from college. Uh and the
next sunday we were married and the

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following sunday we reported for duty
with the US Army, so it was pretty

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busy month, really was oh boy in that
three week period of time. Yes it

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was, yes it was. Well, as a boy
growing up, what did you want to be? You

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know, I always knew I wanted to be in
business of some kind, but I didn't

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know specifically what it would be and
it certainly wasn't teaching at

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that point. My interest in teaching
basically came about while I was at

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Indiana University. I did a bachelor's
degree, graduated with honors in

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management, uh stayed for an M. B. A.
And partly. I stayed because Dottie

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was in her, it was going to be in her
senior year the next year. And the

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chairman of the management department
called me in one day and he said,

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Harold, we have a project we'd like to
ask you to to do. And I said, it

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was john me john f me, he was a legend
in the management faculty field in

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the, in the world really back then.
And I said, well, professor me, what,

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what is it? I was one of his graduate
assistants. He said, well we want

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you to teach a class for us. And I
said, Professor me, I've never taught a

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class in my life. Why would you think
I should teach a class? And he said

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, well, you're, you've just graduated
with honors in management. Are you

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telling me you couldn't teach a class
in management? And I said, no, sir,

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I'm not really telling you that. And
he said, well, we think you should.

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Well, as it turned out, they had an
extension course down in Vincent's

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indiana. And Vince sends, you know,
memory's a little foggy on this, but I

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think it's about 80 miles from
blooming tonight after drive down late in

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the morning one. No wait with the
class I think was 5 to 7 or 5 to 8. I

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drive down one afternoon a week teach
the class. And then at uh eight

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o'clock or nine o'clock was over, I
would drive back to bloomington on and

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it was an interesting experience.
Quite honestly enough so that I thought

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, you know, this would be a nice thing
to try sometime and see if you can

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make a living at it. And so I taught
the next semester also for indiana

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down in Evans, down in Vince ends. And

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I decided, you know, maybe what I
should do when and if I ever get out of

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the service is maybe I should get a
doctorate and see if I might want to

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teach. And so when I, I knew when I
was going to be released from the army

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, I went back to I, you and I sat down
with Professor me and I said, you

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know, I'm going to get out of the
service uh in when it was May or june

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and I'd sort of like to think of
getting a doctorate and I'd like to apply

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to Indiana University. And he said,
why would you want to apply to indiana

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university? And I said, well it's a
good school. I'm basically a Hoosier.

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I've enjoyed it here and he said, well
you know, he said, all of those

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things are true, but he said you have
a bachelor's from here and an M. B.

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A. From here and there's not much more
than we can give you at indiana

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University. You really need to get out
somewhere else and do your

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doctorate work. And I said, well
that's interesting, what would you

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suggest? And he said, well my
suggestion would be you go to Michigan State

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University because that's a program
that's on the rise and a lot of good

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faculty young still developing. And I
said, well professor me that I I

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would certainly accept your advice but
will I be accepted at Michigan

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State University? It's sort of
interesting. He said, well mr Sharon, if I

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recommend you, you will be accepted.
He was literally that influential in

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the management faculty ranks back
then. So I applied sure enough, they

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accepted me and offered me a faculty
position as instructor, full time

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position as an instructor, teaching
basically four classes a week, four

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courses classes or courses as well as
four classes and wound up typically

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two courses that I'd be teaching. And
so I was a faculty member at

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Michigan state for five years. And uh
we also managed to get a PhD at

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Michigan state, I would have been able
to have finished it a little bit

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sooner. But back then you had to have
Proficiency in two foreign languages

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, one of which was not English. And so
you could take a romance language

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like spanish or our french or
Portuguese etcetera and the other language

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had to be german Russian chinese,
something like that. And that literally

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chewed up 12 months of my time to be
able to get proficient in two

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languages. And the proficiency was
sort of interesting. The proficiency

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would be you'd go into the room, I
never forget this lady mrs Sirianni who

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was chairman of the language
department that we always called it mu u

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michigan State University because it
was the egg school in the state of

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michigan. And mrs Sirianni would whip
out a textbook or a book and she'd

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say pages 89 through 91 would you?
Right out a translation of those three

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pages it wasn't the speaking language
proficiency, it was reading

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theoretically, they want you to be
able to read the journals. Well that

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that was really a bunch of garbage
because anything that was written in

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economics was either written in
english or translated into english

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immediately. So you never had to read
but didn't make any difference. Uh

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they would whip out a book and they
give it to you and give you two hours

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and say you know right out of
translation. Well I forget that I didn't

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have any trouble. The spanish, that
was a piece of cake. I had never had

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any language in college or in high
school back then you didn't take

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language in high school, well you
didn't, well I take it back I took I

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took three years of Latin but which
was helpful but I didn't have spanish

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but I was able to pass that exam
pretty easily with a little bit of home

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study and I took a course then I took
german,

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they whipped out a book by Schumpeter.
Well I couldn't understand what he

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was saying if I was if I were reading
english translation, let alone

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reading him in the original german.
Well I failed it of course and but boy

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I came back three months later made
another application. This time they

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picked up they picked a german
translation of john Maynard Keynes, the

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very famous british economist. Well
british, yeah british and american

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economist you'd have to say. And I was
able to I was able to translate

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that and so about two weeks later I
got a letter saying you have met the

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proficiency requirements of the
language department and then basically all

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I had to do was to finish the
dissertation and I was out of there and they

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still refer to that at least the last
I knew at michigan state they would

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talk about, you could get one of two
degrees at ST you could get a D. B. A

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Doctor of business administration or
you could get a PhD in management,

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fans, accounting, what have you?
Business administration and they still

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refer to it as well. I got a real
doctorate meaning I finished the

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languages in order to get the thing I
don't know of many programs that

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require language anymore. Foreign
business now they may and other

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disciplines. But then I got a grant
from the National well it was then the

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the National Association of Purchasing
Agents and the purchasing agents

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Association of Chicago Of $3600. Which
was a fair amount of money back in

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1960

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and it was to cover travel expenses in
connection with the doctorate. The

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dissertation I was writing and the
dissertation was entitled purchasing

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research in american business. And I
was able to visit 10 major companies

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, you know General Electric uh merc uh
companies like that. International

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harvester aO smith and I spent about a
week with each company. And then I

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did a fairly extensive mail
questionnaire and the dissertation was

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accepted in I guess in about April of
1961, we were still there and Then

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the degree was ranted in June I guess
of 1961. The dissertation finally

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was published with revisions by the
american Management Association as one

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of their, it was about 80 pages
printed pages as revised as part of their

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research series, the american
Management Association. So uh it was it

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turned out to have been a very good
selection of topics and the support of

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the Chicago and the National
purchasing agents let me do it. And quite

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honestly I use that dissertation for
the total of Well 28 years that I was

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at ASU. Because my specialty was
industrial purchasing and it was my

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specialty because of the dissertation
primarily. I had worked though for a

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period of time as a purchase analyst
for the old Ohio oil company which is

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now the marathon corporation. And so
and I was finally wound up in the

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service as an army purchasing and
contracting officer. Well you know, I

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tell people I couldn't spell
purchasing at that point, let alone know how

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to do it. But of course with the
military that didn't make a lot of

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difference, I was a purchasing country
when I was released from the

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service. And so I had some industrial
experience in purchasing. I was

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going to ask you, you mentioned when
you taught that first class, what was

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your first paid job? Was that your
first paid job job? Oh no, no. I worked

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in a bakery starting at about age 12
in Seymour indiana after school and

00:17:29.990 --> 00:17:37.276
on and on Sundays for Probably

00:17:37.309 --> 00:17:43.226
4-5 years. And then when I was going
to Indiana University, the uh I guess

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I was back home three summers. Uh they
employed me as a relief route

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driver because the people who who
drove the trucks that dropped off the

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bread at the grocery store, the buns
at the bars, what have you, They

00:18:03.109 --> 00:18:06.516
would take their vacation in the
summer for two or 3 weeks. So they had to

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have somebody to drive the route. And
so I would go with the driver for

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about three days and learn the route
and make meticulous records about

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where you go to joe's bar and grill
and then you get on such and such a

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street and you go to such and such to
such and such a supermarket. And so

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I would drive relief in the summer For
them. And the relief I guess I went

00:18:35.509 --> 00:18:39.907
out from the bakery was in Seymour and
I guess I went out as far as about

00:18:39.940 --> 00:18:45.097
60 miles out because they served a lot
of small basically agricultural

00:18:45.130 --> 00:18:50.006
communities there. So that was really
my first job and I was a dormitory

00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:57.667
counselor at indiana University which
paid my dormitory charges and my

00:18:57.700 --> 00:19:02.707
tuition at IU so I pretty much worked
all the way through you know. And

00:19:02.740 --> 00:19:08.107
then and I was employed by the US army
for and I was employed after I left

00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:11.256
the army for a short period of time
before I went back and went to

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michigan state started working at 12.
That's almost child labor. Yeah

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probably was oh I was did a lot of my
employment was on the donut kettles

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where you you pushed the big tray of
donuts down and then you had to with

00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:38.907
a wooden stick you had to turn them
after you know, X seconds. So you've

00:19:38.940 --> 00:19:42.786
got both sides then you lifted them
out, drain them and then you dunk them

00:19:42.819 --> 00:19:49.766
in the in the sugar or the you know,
whatever it was, whatever kind of

00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:54.016
doughnut you were making and but then
I did run the rotary oven, some in

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fact, I used to have a number of scars
on both arms because you had to be

00:19:59.890 --> 00:20:04.137
very careful when you put your hand in
to pull out a tray of bread and it

00:20:04.170 --> 00:20:08.357
was always three loaves in a tray, you
sure didn't want to let your arm go

00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:13.377
down because boy, that would burn you
immediately. But those scars are all

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gone. All gone. All gone. It was a
good experience. Good, well you know

00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:22.407
back then, I don't think people were
all that concerned about that. I

00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:28.647
think I was as I remember I was paid
30 cents an hour, Which was okay, you

00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:33.276
know by the way my my tuition Indiana
University per semester was

00:20:33.309 --> 00:20:41.107
something like $50 for the semester.
So you know everything's relative

00:20:41.140 --> 00:20:47.367
what made you choose Indiana
University. Um I got a tuition scholarship at

00:20:47.400 --> 00:20:52.766
Indian University, it was only about
60 miles away. I could afford to go

00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.736
there, you know, and it was a
reasonably good university and much better

00:20:56.769 --> 00:21:00.496
university now than when I went there.
But even back then it was a pretty

00:21:00.529 --> 00:21:06.177
good university small like Golly I
think when I went there they had about

00:21:06.210 --> 00:21:11.066
11,000 students on the Bloomington
campus. I don't know what it is now,

00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:15.847
but it's much much much larger than
that, but I felt like I had a very

00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:20.976
good experience at the Indiana
University. I still make my contribution to

00:21:21.009 --> 00:21:28.006
the youth foundation because I think
they do some good work there. Yeah,

00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:31.357
so you went there just knowing you
wanted to be in business, yep, yep. And

00:21:31.390 --> 00:21:35.086
then decided after that teaching
experience that maybe I'd give that a

00:21:35.119 --> 00:21:39.897
shot, but I had to have a PhD in order
to do that. So that's when I went

00:21:39.930 --> 00:21:43.447
to michigan state, I never thought
about being like a high school teacher.

00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:47.816
No, no no, no, no, no, I don't know
that, I don't know that I would

00:21:47.849 --> 00:21:51.437
really have the patience to do. Maybe
I would, I've never done it. So if

00:21:51.470 --> 00:21:55.496
you've never done that, you shouldn't
say you couldn't do it. But I know I

00:21:55.529 --> 00:22:00.756
never seriously considered that at
all, never tell me about going into the

00:22:00.789 --> 00:22:07.526
army. Was that your choice or were you
drafted, happened? Well, it wasn't

00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:12.036
really my choice, but I had back then
and it used to be that way at

00:22:12.069 --> 00:22:18.256
Arizona State University, way back
anybody, any mail Who enrolled at

00:22:18.289 --> 00:22:24.526
Indiana University had to take two
years of reserve Officer training corps

00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:29.917
ROTC, whether they liked it or not,
they took two years, they took a

00:22:29.950 --> 00:22:36.147
course every semester for two years uh
taught by the army and so obviously

00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:41.897
I took that and then at the end of
that they said if you'd like to take

00:22:41.930 --> 00:22:49.930
two more years, of course is taught by
the army we will commission you as

00:22:50.509 --> 00:22:56.207
a second lieutenant in the United
States Army the day before you graduate

00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:01.256
from indiana University. And that
paid, I remember that was a sweetheart

00:23:01.289 --> 00:23:07.407
deal because they paid us

00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:14.776
$30 a month to do that because you
were paid as a private in the army I

00:23:14.809 --> 00:23:19.357
guess was how they made the
calculation. But yeah we gotta check every

00:23:19.390 --> 00:23:26.907
month for $30 from the the U. S.
Government. So that was a great deal. And

00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:33.397
of course I didn't really understand I
guess fully that along with that

00:23:33.430 --> 00:23:39.467
was when you graduated they didn't
care if you were one course shy of

00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:44.947
getting your masters or what you got
an envelope that said on this date

00:23:44.980 --> 00:23:49.566
you will be at Fort Sheridan which was
what happened. And so I went to

00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.796
Fort Sheridan, my new bride and I went
to Fort Sheridan and I was inducted.

00:23:53.829 --> 00:23:58.947
And uh I was already a second, a
reserve second lieutenant. But I was put

00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:02.857
on active duty and it was a great
experience. Absolutely great experience

00:24:02.890 --> 00:24:08.407
for me. I never went to Korea. But
then again the Koreans never landed in

00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:14.387
the US either. So I protected the U.
S. And uh I was at about three

00:24:14.420 --> 00:24:18.617
different posts during that period and
it was a good experience.

00:24:18.650 --> 00:24:22.097
Absolutely. And and I was in the
quartermaster corps which is the business

00:24:22.130 --> 00:24:27.746
arm of the army. So it it worked
worked very well for me and when I, when

00:24:27.779 --> 00:24:33.857
I went back to uh are you fully
thinking I was going to go there and get

00:24:33.890 --> 00:24:39.036
my doctorate and they told me no, I
was going to michigan state and I said

00:24:39.069 --> 00:24:46.137
fine, there was a faculty member at
indiana by the name of keith Davis,

00:24:46.170 --> 00:24:52.107
very fine faculty member, world
renowned human relations was his field.

00:24:52.140 --> 00:24:54.187
And

00:24:54.220 --> 00:25:00.796
sometime during the period I was in
the service, he left indiana

00:25:00.829 --> 00:25:05.286
University and became chairman, the
first chairman Of the Management

00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:10.506
Department, I guess it was the 1st
Department at Arizona State University.

00:25:10.539 --> 00:25:14.986
So keith was chairman of the
department of Management and for some reason

00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:21.586
keith always kept track on me during
the service, I've taken a couple of

00:25:21.619 --> 00:25:25.377
graduate courses from him, I think I
took another graduate course too. But

00:25:25.410 --> 00:25:31.217
you know, we always got a phone call
from him at the holiday season and I

00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:36.397
got a note from him every once in a
while and when he found out I was

00:25:36.430 --> 00:25:42.056
getting very close to finishing a PhD
at michigan state, he said well what

00:25:42.089 --> 00:25:48.816
are you going to do when you get your
PhD? And I said well keith I even

00:25:48.849 --> 00:25:54.457
still then called him dr Davis, I said
dr Davis, I assume I will go into

00:25:54.490 --> 00:26:01.407
the job market and I will wind up
going to, he said where? And I said well

00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:05.756
keith I assume I'll go to back to
indiana University as an assistant

00:26:05.789 --> 00:26:13.789
professor or Ohio state or Illinois or
Wisconsin one of the big 10 schools

00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:21.726
and he said well had you ever
considered a place like Arizona State

00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:23.907
University?

00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:29.867
I said no I said I don't even know
where it is. And he said well he said

00:26:29.900 --> 00:26:36.647
we're a growing school and there's a
lot of opportunity here and you

00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:44.680
really ought to consider Arizona State
and you know I uh you know valued

00:26:45.079 --> 00:26:50.536
his advice and I said well dr Davis
alright I would consider Arizona State

00:26:50.569 --> 00:26:55.907
University. And he said fine look at
the calendar, tell us when you can

00:26:55.940 --> 00:27:00.957
come out and spend a couple of days at
Arizona State University and talk

00:27:00.990 --> 00:27:05.816
to the dean and the and by that point
there were I think three department

00:27:05.849 --> 00:27:13.097
shares at Arizona State and some of
the faculty and then we'll see what

00:27:13.130 --> 00:27:19.336
happens. So I said fine. I made a
reservation, flew out, got off the

00:27:19.369 --> 00:27:25.637
airplane And that was back in that was
probably 1960. And that was the

00:27:25.670 --> 00:27:31.566
time when there was only one terminal
at Sky Harbor terminal one. And if

00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:34.766
you got when you got off the it was
either T. W. A. Or american, you got

00:27:34.799 --> 00:27:40.417
off, you didn't go into that big ramp.
You got off on a series of steps

00:27:40.450 --> 00:27:44.707
and walked down to the tarmac and then
went in and your luggage came on an

00:27:44.740 --> 00:27:49.657
outside carousel there but when I
walked off that plane about eight or

00:27:49.690 --> 00:27:53.556
nine o'clock at night I'd left
michigan and there was snow on the ground,

00:27:53.589 --> 00:27:57.736
there was always snow on the ground in
the winter and here were these big

00:27:57.769 --> 00:28:05.056
palm trees waving and it was still
probably 60 degrees or 65 degrees at

00:28:05.089 --> 00:28:09.506
eight or nine o'clock at night. I
thought, you know, this place has some

00:28:09.539 --> 00:28:17.539
attractions. And so I talked to the
people and they made me an offer right

00:28:17.700 --> 00:28:22.437
on the spot. Really, Assistant
professor of management. I was paid the

00:28:22.470 --> 00:28:30.306
munificent sum of 50 600 for the
academic year. And

00:28:30.339 --> 00:28:37.927
so I called Dottie and I said, you
know, we may have found a nice place to

00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:45.217
spend a vacation For a year or two.
And she said, well is it that? And I

00:28:45.250 --> 00:28:50.437
said, let me tell you, it is a nice
place. Said, I'm not sure I want to be

00:28:50.470 --> 00:28:57.407
here for the long run, but it's
certainly a nice place. So I said, well I

00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:04.276
will accept the job and I will take it
for two years And you have my

00:29:04.309 --> 00:29:10.486
resignation right now because at the
end of two years I'm out of here. And

00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:16.367
they said, well let's see what happens
over the next two years. As a

00:29:16.400 --> 00:29:18.766
matter of fact, they couldn't even
give me a two year contract. Everything

00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.256
back then was a one year appointment.
Everything had to be made, year by

00:29:23.289 --> 00:29:28.707
year by year. And At the end of two
years

00:29:28.740 --> 00:29:36.107
I stayed and they became an associate
professor At the end of my 2nd year.

00:29:36.140 --> 00:29:41.647
And so I stayed. And at the end of my
Fourth year which would have been

00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:47.736
1965, I was promoted to full
professor. And I've been there ever since I

00:29:47.769 --> 00:29:55.769
was there for 28 years from September
of 61 too. I think about June of 89

00:29:56.339 --> 00:30:03.457
. I was part of the first, I think it
was the first early retirement

00:30:03.490 --> 00:30:11.387
program of the university. Uh What
happened was some legislature got the

00:30:11.420 --> 00:30:19.266
bright idea that we're paying
elementary school teachers. $47,000

00:30:19.299 --> 00:30:24.006
a year. Can you believe that to teach
elementary school for nine months?

00:30:24.039 --> 00:30:28.607
Why don't we get rid of all those
teachers that are making those uh you

00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:33.687
know obscene amounts of money and hire
new graduates from A. S. U. Or U.

00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:40.336
Of A. Or flag because we can hire them
for $16,000 a year. So they went

00:30:40.369 --> 00:30:47.036
into an early retirement program And
the early retirement program provided

00:30:47.069 --> 00:30:51.177
that if you were I think you had to
be, you had to have at least 10 years

00:30:51.210 --> 00:30:59.006
service uh in the school system and
your age and your years of service

00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:03.707
head total two

00:31:03.740 --> 00:31:05.756
85

00:31:05.789 --> 00:31:13.789
or 65 85 65. Um Well I had at that
point 20 eight years of service

00:31:22.130 --> 00:31:30.130
And I was about 50 anyway. I made it
just within about three months of the

00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:38.236
the being able to take early
retirement. So basically I tell you, I left

00:31:38.269 --> 00:31:44.877
there two months later, left a. S. U.
Uh in 1961 And the end of my 28th

00:31:44.910 --> 00:31:50.306
year because the early retirement
program was quite an attractive program.

00:31:50.339 --> 00:31:56.167
Okay, I had planned to stay till I was
65 or longer, but you know, I just

00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:59.996
didn't have a lot of choice. I had had
to go with that On that. Financial

00:32:00.029 --> 00:32:04.707
arrangement was good. Good. 28 years.
Let's go back to when you came in

00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:11.677
1961, you described the airport really
well. What was a S. U. A. S. U. Was

00:32:11.710 --> 00:32:19.710
a very fine small college campus. I'm
going to guess, I'm going to guess

00:32:20.349 --> 00:32:28.349
the enrollment was probably in 61,
11,012,000 students and uh it was a

00:32:29.420 --> 00:32:37.420
very compact campus. Uh they had just
moved into the new football stadium

00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:44.496
and the old stadium was right on
Apache. And college because College

00:32:44.529 --> 00:32:48.796
Avenue was still open then ran right
through the middle of campus and they

00:32:48.829 --> 00:32:53.347
just finished the new stadium. The
Union building was a much smaller

00:32:53.380 --> 00:32:56.556
building, The Memorial Union because
they hadn't put the the extension or

00:32:56.589 --> 00:33:02.647
expansion on it and there was a lot of
green grass around. Unfortunately a

00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:09.056
lot of the grass is gone now, it's all
cement, but it was, it was just a

00:33:09.089 --> 00:33:17.089
nice, nice, attractive campus. Um The
faculty was very collegial back then.

00:33:18.210 --> 00:33:25.086
The faculty wasn't large and the there
was a faculty dining room or

00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:32.316
dining area dining room over in the
union building and on Sundays You

00:33:32.349 --> 00:33:40.349
could go over there 11-2 or something
and uh have lunch, have brunch and

00:33:40.730 --> 00:33:45.657
so we used to take the boys after
church and stop by there and have brunch

00:33:45.690 --> 00:33:50.877
and you know, one week you'd sit down
at a table and there'd be faculty

00:33:50.910 --> 00:33:56.026
members from the english department or
the psych department or the engine

00:33:56.059 --> 00:34:02.026
school or what have you. And so you
got to know a lot of faculty members

00:34:02.059 --> 00:34:08.657
in different departments, okay. But
much, much smaller and much more

00:34:08.690 --> 00:34:15.086
collegial atmosphere. The president
was uh, gee homer, Durham who later

00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:19.967
became the commissioner of higher
education for the state of Utah and

00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:26.807
homer was, it was just what you would
expect a college president to be at

00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:31.876
that time because I sort of think
maybe he was a scholar and I'm gonna

00:34:31.909 --> 00:34:39.909
guess greek or one of the fairly
obscure fields and he just sort of had

00:34:40.929 --> 00:34:46.236
the demeanor of a university president
and everybody knew him. Everybody

00:34:46.269 --> 00:34:51.287
knew him and you'd see him out on
campus all the time strolling around,

00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:55.236
not all the time, but you know, you'd
see him occasionally and just a very

00:34:55.269 --> 00:34:59.876
pleasant gentleman, the management
department in the college of business

00:34:59.909 --> 00:35:03.867
and was then It was the College of
Business Administration was very small

00:35:03.900 --> 00:35:11.900
. I think I was the 6th faculty member
in the department and

00:35:12.139 --> 00:35:17.066
We were perhaps the largest department
in the college. I don't remember.

00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:24.706
Total faculty in the college probably
was not a bit about 50 people and

00:35:24.739 --> 00:35:28.887
it was just, it was a fun place to be.
I enjoyed it. We used to remember

00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:35.146
in the department, one of the fun
things was right adjacent to the

00:35:35.179 --> 00:35:43.179
football field was the baseball
diamond. So we used too often in the

00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:48.477
afternoon during the spring, two or
three of us would get together and we

00:35:48.510 --> 00:35:53.606
could just go over and watch a couple
of innings of baseball and then come

00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:58.037
back. You know, if you're grading
papers or whatever, you could grade and

00:35:58.070 --> 00:36:01.206
then go over there and have a couple
innings of baseball. It was free back

00:36:01.239 --> 00:36:05.936
then. The baseball was free and at
least for faculty and students. It was

00:36:05.969 --> 00:36:09.657
back then. I think I think the public
had to pay a dollar a ticket or

00:36:09.690 --> 00:36:13.186
something like that to get in. But it
was just, that was that kind of an

00:36:13.219 --> 00:36:17.517
atmosphere at Arizona State
University. And where was the College of

00:36:17.550 --> 00:36:25.550
Business And the manager um physically
located, the College of Business

00:36:25.900 --> 00:36:33.900
Administration was a wing off of the
administration building. Um

00:36:38.590 --> 00:36:43.896
I think maybe at one point that he was
even called the Egg building. And

00:36:43.929 --> 00:36:51.097
you could even get from the College of
Business Administration to the

00:36:51.130 --> 00:36:55.677
administration building through a
secret passage that connected the two

00:36:55.710 --> 00:37:01.197
that very very few people knew about.
Ah

00:37:01.230 --> 00:37:09.230
In fact I you you used to used to
chuckle and we were there during the um

00:37:09.829 --> 00:37:17.247
Vietnam era and there would be a lot
of student um riot. Well I won't call

00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:23.566
them riots, protests etcetera
etcetera. And the president at that point

00:37:23.599 --> 00:37:30.276
was john swatter and john didn't have
a lot of sympathy with this but he

00:37:30.309 --> 00:37:34.657
knew how to get from his office in the
administration building through the

00:37:34.690 --> 00:37:39.796
College of Business out to the parking
lot and be gone. And that was his,

00:37:39.829 --> 00:37:42.896
that was his emergency exit.

00:37:42.929 --> 00:37:48.097
It was it was it was an interesting
time, interesting, interesting time.

00:37:48.130 --> 00:37:52.686
Had a number of uh

00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:58.956
pretty good students as a matter of
fact, many of which were quite

00:37:58.989 --> 00:38:04.456
successful on graduation. Now we
didn't have many graduate students back

00:38:04.489 --> 00:38:10.907
then there was an M. B. A. Or maybe
then it was an M. S. In in management

00:38:10.940 --> 00:38:16.477
degree. Didn't have a doctorate. And
you didn't have a lot of people in

00:38:16.510 --> 00:38:21.557
the graduate program. They're almost
all undergraduates. But a nice bunch

00:38:21.590 --> 00:38:26.747
of students. And uh and uh some of
them did very well in the job market

00:38:26.780 --> 00:38:32.307
when they graduated. So it was it was
a rewarding place to be. Tell me,

00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:37.066
what do you remember about that
Vietnam era. Mhm. Did you ever get

00:38:37.099 --> 00:38:41.066
involved in any of the protests? No,
no no no no no no College of business

00:38:41.099 --> 00:38:44.697
by and large. Never got involved in
things like that. Nor the College of

00:38:44.730 --> 00:38:52.730
Engineering. Um Oh I I remember some
of the, some of the brouhaha

00:38:53.099 --> 00:38:59.316
concerned right out in front of the
administration building. There was a

00:38:59.349 --> 00:39:04.787
circle, I think the circle may still
be there big flagpole. And they used

00:39:04.820 --> 00:39:08.416
to run the american flag up to the top
and then right below it was the

00:39:08.449 --> 00:39:13.626
Arizona flag. There may even been an
Arizona state flag that was there,

00:39:13.659 --> 00:39:19.086
but the protesters would take the flag
down. Well the university would put

00:39:19.119 --> 00:39:26.407
the flag back up and back and forth.
And uh there was one point they used

00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:33.356
to have whole flowerbed all around the
flagpole is beautiful, beautiful

00:39:33.389 --> 00:39:39.086
flowers. Well one of their protests
that students trampled all the flowers.

00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:46.666
The president got shot, I was very
unhappy with that. So he made this

00:39:46.699 --> 00:39:52.197
student, it would have been student
association reimbursed the university

00:39:52.230 --> 00:39:58.787
for the cost of replanting all the
flowers etcetera etcetera. And

00:39:58.820 --> 00:40:04.037
interesting times, interesting times.
But he pretty much stayed out of it.

00:40:04.070 --> 00:40:09.936
Yeah, I wasn't, I was not, I was
really involved in my teaching and

00:40:09.969 --> 00:40:16.387
trying to do things professionally.
Writing speaking et cetera and I

00:40:16.420 --> 00:40:21.477
really didn't have time to and as a
matter of fact I really

00:40:21.510 --> 00:40:29.510
I didn't have time to even go to too
many of the athletic events so I

00:40:29.909 --> 00:40:33.517
school the football games and the
basketball games and an occasional

00:40:33.550 --> 00:40:39.796
baseball game. I didn't go to into the
minor sports at all and dr Davis

00:40:39.829 --> 00:40:47.829
keith. Davis keith was chairman for
about three years after I joined and

00:40:50.570 --> 00:40:57.157
then he was replaced by joe shea
backer whom we had hired from University

00:40:57.190 --> 00:41:04.787
of Wisconsin and then I replaced joe
as chairman and I think I became

00:41:04.820 --> 00:41:09.336
chairman. I was in my sixth year, I
became chairman of the department, I

00:41:09.369 --> 00:41:16.657
was chairman for 16 years of the
management department and we went from

00:41:16.690 --> 00:41:23.296
six full time faculty when I joined
the department I think it was 19 or 20

00:41:23.329 --> 00:41:28.776
full time faculty when I left the
chairmanship of the department. And so

00:41:28.809 --> 00:41:32.626
the department has pretty good growth
because you know the student

00:41:32.659 --> 00:41:37.747
enrollment just kept going up up up
almost every year. That was pretty

00:41:37.780 --> 00:41:41.657
quick advancement for you to go from
being an assistant professor to

00:41:41.690 --> 00:41:45.927
chairman of the Department six years
and for professor in four years. Yeah

00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:53.577
well and obviously that was one of the
reasons that I stayed here because

00:41:53.610 --> 00:42:01.610
I talked to the people at U. C. L. A.
And Ohio State about leaving a state

00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:08.097
and going there. But of course one of
the real questions was uh could they

00:42:08.130 --> 00:42:13.006
justify hiring you as a full professor
at Ohio State University or U. C. L.

00:42:13.039 --> 00:42:17.736
A. They might not have been able to
anyway I didn't go I didn't I talked

00:42:17.769 --> 00:42:24.467
to them interviewed them with them but
decided no and our kids were in uh

00:42:24.500 --> 00:42:32.500
our kids were in elementary school. Uh
at that point rick and scott and uh

00:42:33.400 --> 00:42:38.077
it just didn't seem appropriate to
take them out of school. And then of

00:42:38.110 --> 00:42:43.436
course in later years they were in
McKamey Intermediate school and we

00:42:43.469 --> 00:42:47.006
don't take them out of that. And then
they were a temper union high school.

00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:52.197
And hey, it didn't seem right to
change high schools until they graduated.

00:42:52.230 --> 00:42:57.677
So we basically made way back a
decision. We're going to stay here till I

00:42:57.710 --> 00:43:05.256
get out of high school. And although
The older son is now 50 and so he got

00:43:05.289 --> 00:43:10.367
out of high school 30 plus years ago
and we're still here. How's that?

00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:16.287
Yeah, they know. No, they both went
all the way through public school in

00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:20.436
in Tempe airs on the kindergarten
through Tampa Union High School had a

00:43:20.469 --> 00:43:24.467
great experience to there.

00:43:24.500 --> 00:43:29.287
How was the management field changing
over the years since you started in

00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:37.320
it? Uh, it is when I started in it,
uh, teaching and as a student, it was

00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:46.800
much more, I would use the term
pragmatic than it is today. Um, it was

00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:56.057
very work oriented, very industry
oriented, very concerned with, well, how

00:43:56.090 --> 00:44:02.816
does a manager, what does the manager
do to be successful? Okay. At some

00:44:02.849 --> 00:44:08.367
point and I can't really tell you when
that was whether it was 1971 or

00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:10.916
1979.

00:44:10.949 --> 00:44:18.617
The feeling became, well, you know,
for us to have real academic

00:44:18.650 --> 00:44:20.856
respectability,

00:44:20.889 --> 00:44:28.889
we have to begin doing some esoteric
research. Okay. And we have to have

00:44:29.860 --> 00:44:35.827
some fairly complex statistical
models, etcetera etcetera. And so it

00:44:35.860 --> 00:44:43.157
certainly has changed in the sense
that they're they're less work oriented

00:44:43.190 --> 00:44:51.190
and more academic oriented than they
were 40 years ago. Okay. And

00:44:52.789 --> 00:44:58.296
it's sort of interesting. Not all
schools have followed that approach. For

00:44:58.329 --> 00:45:03.807
example, Harvard University there
college. Well it's not uh college events

00:45:03.840 --> 00:45:08.566
, the B school we are, we always call
them the B school, they are still

00:45:08.599 --> 00:45:14.907
very industry oriented. Uh They still
hire people as full time faculty

00:45:14.940 --> 00:45:20.217
members who don't have a doctorate,
some of whom don't even have a

00:45:20.250 --> 00:45:25.606
master's degree, but they had been
president and chairman of three M or

00:45:25.639 --> 00:45:29.927
ford or General Electric. And they're
saying, you know, those are the kind

00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:33.947
of people that ought to be in the
classroom. Uh Whereas I don't think that

00:45:33.980 --> 00:45:38.166
kind of an individual would ever be
hired at Arizona state now because

00:45:38.199 --> 00:45:43.646
they don't have the credentials, which
in my view doesn't make a whole lot

00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:51.456
of sense, but nevertheless, that's the
way it's changed, you know.

00:45:51.489 --> 00:45:57.586
Mhm. What do you remember most of the
specific incidents about your career

00:45:57.619 --> 00:46:00.247
in the issue

00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:03.546
currently? Oh,

00:46:03.579 --> 00:46:11.077
you know, the the only, I don't
remember any specific incidents, Oh, one

00:46:11.110 --> 00:46:17.117
thing you think back was was sort of
fun. The big quad or the big grassy

00:46:17.150 --> 00:46:22.847
area between the old college of
Business administration building and the,

00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:26.037
you know, if it was the geology
building, I think maybe, I don't know,

00:46:26.070 --> 00:46:31.486
that wasn't what it was called was a
huge grassy area and that's where

00:46:31.519 --> 00:46:39.519
they basically filmed a lot of the, a
lot of the, I guess it would not be

00:46:41.250 --> 00:46:45.586
the real story items but sort of the
background of the movie, the nutty

00:46:45.619 --> 00:46:53.619
professor that starred jerry Lewis and
so you'd look out there and there

00:46:53.650 --> 00:46:57.727
are these camera crews out there and
trucks and lights and etcetera

00:46:57.760 --> 00:47:02.807
etcetera. And always a big group of
students standing around watching and

00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:07.387
every once in a while, jerry Lewis,
I've really never met him, but you'd

00:47:07.420 --> 00:47:13.017
be teaching a class and he'd pop in
the classroom just walk in and say

00:47:13.050 --> 00:47:18.456
hello to the students and the
professor and joker too and gone. And that

00:47:18.489 --> 00:47:22.486
was sort of sort of an interesting
experience. Remember he did that in a

00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:25.816
faculty meeting in the college of
business. He popped in for two or three

00:47:25.849 --> 00:47:31.756
minutes sort of unannounced and just
crazy. And I've, I've, I've seen the

00:47:31.789 --> 00:47:35.206
movie, The movie is sort of an
interesting movie and a lot of, it's the a

00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:43.239
state background shots and um, I guess
when you say incidents,

00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:47.717
early incidents, that was, it was
probably what I would remember that kind

00:47:47.750 --> 00:47:52.267
of thing. Oh, I guess you sort of
talked about it, but at what point you

00:47:52.300 --> 00:47:55.566
said you came here thinking you were
only gonna stay two years. At what

00:47:55.599 --> 00:48:00.617
point did you decide that you were
going to stay longer? Oh, I suppose uh

00:48:00.650 --> 00:48:04.717
, at about the end of the fourth or
fifth year, we decided we were going

00:48:04.750 --> 00:48:08.736
to stay here permanently. And

00:48:08.769 --> 00:48:12.227
it was, was, you know, in retrospect,
a very good decision. Very good

00:48:12.260 --> 00:48:17.066
decision. Um, Was it a good decision
to a state as chairman of the

00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:21.146
Management Department for 16 years? I
don't know that that was all that

00:48:21.179 --> 00:48:28.717
good a decision. But I was, I was
involved in building something and he

00:48:28.750 --> 00:48:33.396
was pretty rewarding too to, to do the
hiring and see the young faculty

00:48:33.429 --> 00:48:39.986
developed, many of which left of
course. And you know, one of them is now

00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:48.019
the dean at Kent State University. One
of them is the dean at, oh, the

00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:52.537
university in Atlanta Georgia. I can't
even think of the name of it, tim

00:48:52.570 --> 00:48:57.327
Meskin was the name number the faculty
went on and had pretty successful

00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:02.037
careers. And one of them is a named
professor at University of florida. Uh

00:49:02.070 --> 00:49:08.256
, No, no University of Miami. And so,
you know, the faculty that we hired

00:49:08.289 --> 00:49:14.327
, we hired very good people. Always
young people and young people don't

00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:20.546
tend to stay all that long. And uh,
but you know, my argument was, hey, if

00:49:20.579 --> 00:49:24.537
they stay for four years or five
years, they'll make a real contribution

00:49:24.570 --> 00:49:29.396
to the program. And we'll say thank
you very much, we appreciate you being

00:49:29.429 --> 00:49:35.436
here. And if you've decided you have
to go to Pepperdine godspeed and a

00:49:35.469 --> 00:49:37.836
lot of them did.

00:49:37.869 --> 00:49:42.097
And you mentioned some of your
students that you remember some of them go

00:49:42.130 --> 00:49:47.816
into business and have notable careers
there. Oh yeah, I had, one of my

00:49:47.849 --> 00:49:54.436
students became, well, he was the head
of the

00:49:54.469 --> 00:50:02.077
uh program in phoenix. The uh, it was
then Sperry flight systems program

00:50:02.110 --> 00:50:10.110
out on the Black Canyon highway and he
left that and became

00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:18.159
became president of Sperry in
Minneapolis. Okay, so he did very, very well

00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:26.787
now retired of course. And a couple of
the guys became, went into the

00:50:26.820 --> 00:50:32.206
service and became one of them became
a major general in the army and won

00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:36.867
a major general in the air force. So
they had a pretty interesting career.

00:50:36.900 --> 00:50:42.086
One of the fellas, one of the few
american indian students that we had,

00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:46.197
we didn't have a lot of american
indian students, you might think we would

00:50:46.230 --> 00:50:54.230
have, but we didn't became the
business manager. Well, he went to work for

00:50:55.760 --> 00:51:02.026
Douglas aircraft for well, quite a few
years in purchasing materials and

00:51:02.059 --> 00:51:09.997
pretty successful. Then he became
business manager of the um, out east of

00:51:10.030 --> 00:51:17.077
here. The Apache, uh, um, nation. And
he became businessman still is to my

00:51:17.110 --> 00:51:23.376
knowledge business manager. I still
get calls occasionally at home from

00:51:23.409 --> 00:51:29.517
somebody who says professor, I'm gonna
be in town uh, next week on Tuesday

00:51:29.550 --> 00:51:35.517
, is there any chance you would be
free for lunch. And I always say, you

00:51:35.550 --> 00:51:40.756
know, I'll make myself free for lunch
if I'm in town. Let's have lunch.

00:51:40.789 --> 00:51:44.336
It's always fun to talk to them and
find out what they've done. And of

00:51:44.369 --> 00:51:49.597
course many of them of course are now
retired or retiring Because you know

00:51:49.630 --> 00:51:56.936
, I left there in 89 and that was
what, 15, 16 years ago, 17 years ago.

00:51:56.969 --> 00:52:01.787
And so a lot of the lot of those
students have gone to work, spent 25, 30

00:52:01.820 --> 00:52:05.736
years with the company and they're
retiring where most of the students,

00:52:05.769 --> 00:52:11.566
young students right out of high
school. Yes, Yes. Almost all, almost, I

00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:16.967
won't say all, but almost all were
part had part time jobs. Uh, they were

00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:24.947
a very serious students. In fact, I
remembered I made a great push when my

00:52:24.980 --> 00:52:29.247
, when I was chairman of the
management department. Oh and by the way I

00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:32.686
started another department called the
department of purchasing

00:52:32.719 --> 00:52:38.166
transportation operations, PTO
department, I was its chairman for I guess

00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:44.396
about four years and I always made the
argument with the faculty. You know

00:52:44.429 --> 00:52:51.017
, if the students who get out of here
do not have to find jobs long term,

00:52:51.050 --> 00:52:55.566
we don't have jobs because if the
people will graduate aren't being hired

00:52:55.599 --> 00:53:01.427
, employers are going to quit coming.
The Arizona State University and

00:53:01.460 --> 00:53:07.117
then they'll need a lot fewer faculty.
But I remember being told by the

00:53:07.150 --> 00:53:12.077
head recruiter of Raytheon, they used
to come down here twice a year,

00:53:12.110 --> 00:53:18.956
always hired three or four students
twice a year, once for the people who

00:53:18.989 --> 00:53:23.106
graduated in december and then the
people who graduated in May and it

00:53:23.139 --> 00:53:26.977
always took him back to, I think it
was a one year training program back

00:53:27.010 --> 00:53:31.206
in massachusetts where Raytheon's
headquartered. And I remember there

00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:36.566
chief, well, chief recruiter is the
vice president of purchasing and

00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:39.416
Raytheon because these people are all
being hired into the purchasing

00:53:39.449 --> 00:53:42.586
program said one of the reasons we
like to come to Arizona State

00:53:42.619 --> 00:53:47.887
University, the students already know
how to work. They've had some

00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:52.867
experience. They've been in the job
market. It may, they may have had a

00:53:52.900 --> 00:53:56.956
job flipping hamburgers somewhere. But
so be it, they know you've got to

00:53:56.989 --> 00:54:01.807
be there on time and you have to do
your job etcetera etcetera. So that

00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:07.296
was very impressive to a lot of these
employers? And we placed a lot of

00:54:07.329 --> 00:54:13.117
students with the Raytheon's, the
General electric's, the ibMS, the

00:54:13.150 --> 00:54:21.150
boeings, uh, three M The oil
companies, big recruiters mobil Exxon Chevron

00:54:23.309 --> 00:54:29.206
always, we're recruiting here. In fact
we in the management department and

00:54:29.239 --> 00:54:35.336
then later on in the PTO department,
we used to make it a point to know

00:54:35.369 --> 00:54:41.796
which companies were recruiting which
days and then one of the faculty

00:54:41.829 --> 00:54:47.106
members would make it a point to go
over to career services and have lunch

00:54:47.139 --> 00:54:51.566
with the recruiter and ask the
recruiter, is there anything any comments

00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:56.546
you'd like to make about the students
that you've talked to or about what

00:54:56.579 --> 00:55:02.126
you understand the program to be any
changes you would suggest the faculty

00:55:02.159 --> 00:55:07.206
ought to make in the academic program.
So we tried to keep very close to

00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:13.697
the job market and I still think
that's a very, very smart thing to do. I

00:55:13.730 --> 00:55:19.876
would think that would attract more
students to. Oh, yes. Well the, the

00:55:19.909 --> 00:55:27.256
sure, the College of Business grew
very rapidly and largely because they

00:55:27.289 --> 00:55:32.017
were able to place a lot of students
and in very good jobs in some

00:55:32.050 --> 00:55:39.206
instances, in fact the area that was
always the highest paid starting

00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:45.497
salary was the accounting field. But
the purchasing grads overtook them

00:55:45.530 --> 00:55:50.486
and they were for a period of time,
the highest paid, uh, new hires out of

00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:53.617
the college, whether they still are
not, I don't know. But yeah, and that

00:55:53.650 --> 00:55:57.847
, that of course, word of word gets
out pretty quickly among the students.

00:55:57.880 --> 00:56:02.106
You know, hey, a major in such and
such boy, the recruiters are really

00:56:02.139 --> 00:56:07.686
interested in talking to to you. Yeah,
it worked. You said you started a

00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:11.747
new department department of
purchasing transportation operations, which

00:56:11.780 --> 00:56:17.637
taught the courses in purchasing
materials, traffic, transportation and

00:56:17.670 --> 00:56:25.670
production. Why did you start that?
Oh, we made it for a couple of reasons.

00:56:27.130 --> 00:56:34.796
We knew that having a separate
department would allow us to attract

00:56:34.829 --> 00:56:41.497
better faculty members and that's
those specific disciplines. Okay.

00:56:41.530 --> 00:56:47.677
Secondly, we knew that it would let us
attract more and better recruiting

00:56:47.710 --> 00:56:53.227
companies, the campus And it was a
small department, I think when we

00:56:53.260 --> 00:56:57.677
started it had something like 11
faculty in it. It wasn't a huge

00:56:57.710 --> 00:57:02.347
department. I don't know what they
have now it's much larger but he was a

00:57:02.380 --> 00:57:08.856
relatively small department and I was
its chairman until I was its

00:57:08.889 --> 00:57:16.889
chairman until I left one year before
I got the early buyout retirement.

00:57:17.050 --> 00:57:24.336
So I left in 88 as chairman of the
department because I was convinced that

00:57:24.369 --> 00:57:30.356
I could start a research institute
which we did called the Center for

00:57:30.389 --> 00:57:37.217
Advanced purchasing Studies which was
the first tenant in the new A. S. U.

00:57:37.250 --> 00:57:42.407
Research Park down on Elliot. And I
was the director of the Center for

00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:48.227
Advanced Purchase Studies for Its 1st
10 years. And I left that part of

00:57:48.260 --> 00:57:53.356
the issue. It's interesting was it
part of a issue or not? I was not an A

00:57:53.389 --> 00:58:01.389
. S. U. Employee because I was a
retiree. So I was a contract employee,

00:58:01.820 --> 00:58:08.077
two caps. E they couldn't pay me
through a issue because I was retired and

00:58:08.110 --> 00:58:14.537
taking a pension so they had to pay me
as an independent contractor. But

00:58:14.570 --> 00:58:22.570
everyone who is on the payroll except
me was an ASU employee. Okay. But

00:58:26.869 --> 00:58:34.416
the agreement we made with the
university was we would not request any

00:58:34.449 --> 00:58:41.887
funding from A. S. U. We would pay all
of the employees out of money we

00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:49.920
raised. We would not need any physical
space because we were going to rent

00:58:51.260 --> 00:58:57.276
space down at the research park which
we would pay for. So the interesting

00:58:57.309 --> 00:59:02.736
thing is the university get all upset
in the, in the years in the 90s

00:59:02.769 --> 00:59:07.157
because they'd get into budget
crunches and they'd go out to all the

00:59:07.190 --> 00:59:10.756
departments and say you've got to give
us what they call it, revert mint

00:59:10.789 --> 00:59:14.677
or something meaning you have to give
us back 5% of your budget. So they

00:59:14.710 --> 00:59:17.936
used to always come to me and say,
well, you know, and I'd say, well, wait

00:59:17.969 --> 00:59:21.856
a minute guys, let's look very
carefully. I'll be happy to give you back

00:59:21.889 --> 00:59:26.776
5% because you haven't given us
anything. So there's no money to give back.

00:59:26.809 --> 00:59:31.646
So they never bothered us a bit
because we, we were never a budget item

00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:37.787
of the university still operates that
same way. It is a joint project of

00:59:37.820 --> 00:59:40.887
the National Association of Purchasing
Management whose national

00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:47.387
headquarters are down at the park and
the college. Well now we call it the

00:59:47.420 --> 00:59:53.186
hmm, what do we call the college now?
Uh,

00:59:53.219 --> 00:59:58.756
well, who is the gentleman who gave us
The $50 million? Yeah, now it's the

00:59:58.789 --> 01:00:04.557
Carey school. So it's a joint project
of the Kerry school and ah, the

01:00:04.590 --> 01:00:07.017
National Association of purchasing
Manager still operates in the very same

01:00:07.050 --> 01:00:11.177
way. And by the way, let me suggest
one of the reasons that I set it up

01:00:11.210 --> 01:00:19.210
that way was I wanted to be able to
raise money from individuals and

01:00:19.230 --> 01:00:26.077
companies that would let us pay
faculty pay researchers, pay

01:00:26.110 --> 01:00:30.896
administrators administrative
assistants, secretaries, data processors,

01:00:30.929 --> 01:00:36.376
etcetera, etcetera and pay the rent on
the physical quarters we occupied.

01:00:36.409 --> 01:00:41.827
And I knew that the only way you were
going to be able to raise that kind

01:00:41.860 --> 01:00:45.767
of money and we said it's gonna take
at least a million million and a half

01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:52.186
dollars a year Being raised is you're
going to have to convince companies

01:00:52.219 --> 01:00:57.456
that if they will give you a check for
$50,000, the research that will be

01:00:57.489 --> 01:01:04.916
done will be useful to industry. Now,
that means you can't have a faculty

01:01:04.949 --> 01:01:10.407
committee telling you, oh, does it
meet the particular statistical tests?

01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:14.467
They don't care, they want to know,
will it let us be more efficient? And

01:01:14.500 --> 01:01:22.500
it seems to have worked. I left that
in 99 I left that in uh 1999

01:01:26.210 --> 01:01:32.077
99, Yep, Yep. So I left there after,
after 10 years.

01:01:32.110 --> 01:01:39.037
This is tape too. I told you I can
talk, I'm a people, I used to, people

01:01:39.070 --> 01:01:42.066
used to ask me, what do you do? And I
say, well I'm a professor or was the

01:01:42.099 --> 01:01:45.177
professor, do they profess?

01:01:45.210 --> 01:01:48.566
Mhm. Yes,

01:01:48.599 --> 01:01:54.727
one more question about the center for
advanced purchasing Studies caps?

01:01:54.760 --> 01:02:02.586
Oh, the purpose was to improve the
performance of purchasing by US

01:02:02.619 --> 01:02:09.387
companies. It was to do research that
would help us companies improve the

01:02:09.420 --> 01:02:15.307
way they spent the purchasing money
And uh it seems to have worked seems

01:02:15.340 --> 01:02:19.787
to what we put out about five, a major
research studies a year. We do

01:02:19.820 --> 01:02:25.026
about 10 benchmarking studies a year.
They have an annual purchasing

01:02:25.059 --> 01:02:29.606
roundtable up at the formation or the
Biltmore where they bring the head

01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:34.887
of purchasing of major, about 80 major
us and and quite honestly there's

01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:38.936
some international companies in there
now people come from England and

01:02:38.969 --> 01:02:44.427
Germany and the like to attend the
roundtable so it's it's been an and

01:02:44.460 --> 01:02:50.717
they do a lot of, most of the research
is done by faculty members. Uh the

01:02:50.750 --> 01:02:58.276
majority of the majority, the largest
number of studies done bye faculty

01:02:58.309 --> 01:03:02.577
at any university are studies done by
faculty at Arizona State University.

01:03:02.610 --> 01:03:07.807
But caps pays them to do the studies
caps literally pays them over and

01:03:07.840 --> 01:03:11.736
above their faculty salary to do the
studies but they have faculty from

01:03:11.769 --> 01:03:17.436
michigan state U C L A. Harvard all
over that do the studies and it's all

01:03:17.469 --> 01:03:24.316
entirely funded by corporate,
corporate and individual funding. Um As a

01:03:24.349 --> 01:03:30.316
matter of fact they, even in order to
assure its continuity. See I was

01:03:30.349 --> 01:03:38.349
always afraid that when I left there,
if if it went to a department in the

01:03:41.320 --> 01:03:43.867
college

01:03:43.900 --> 01:03:50.697
depending on who was running it, they
might decide we want to do only

01:03:50.730 --> 01:03:57.776
research which is academically
respectable. Okay. And if that's the case

01:03:57.809 --> 01:04:03.197
it's going to dry up your funding
because General Electric doesn't give a

01:04:03.230 --> 01:04:06.936
darn about whether it's academically
respectable. They are concerned about

01:04:06.969 --> 01:04:11.537
, does it give us information that
will let us more efficiently and

01:04:11.570 --> 01:04:17.666
effectively run this company. Okay. So
I said well how do we accomplish

01:04:17.699 --> 01:04:25.699
that? So Cap set out to establish an
endowed chair

01:04:26.489 --> 01:04:34.489
for the director of caps so that that
money was secured. There was no

01:04:35.050 --> 01:04:38.506
question. Well there is a question
depending on the interest rates. But

01:04:38.539 --> 01:04:44.327
anyway, we were able to raise $2
million dollars by basically corporate

01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:49.106
contributions and some individuals and
they established the Harold Lee

01:04:49.139 --> 01:04:55.986
Furin chair in purchasing which is
designated to be occupied by the person

01:04:56.019 --> 01:05:01.387
who runs the center for Advanced
purchasing studies. Now, will that do the

01:05:01.420 --> 01:05:07.836
job? Not really, because if the
interest rates drop 22% Even though you

01:05:07.869 --> 01:05:13.947
have $2 million, your interest only
throws off about $40,000 a year. Well

01:05:13.980 --> 01:05:19.517
that's not going to do The job. If the
interest is 10, if if you can get

01:05:19.550 --> 01:05:21.637
10,010%

01:05:21.670 --> 01:05:28.956
interest then it's gonna throw off
$200,000. Okay. And the money is

01:05:28.989 --> 01:05:34.126
actually invested by the ASU.
Foundation. The money's actually was put on

01:05:34.159 --> 01:05:40.026
deposit with the Foundation, but and
they hired a superb individual from

01:05:40.059 --> 01:05:45.977
michigan State University uh Phil
carter to become the new executive

01:05:46.010 --> 01:05:52.296
director of caps. And and he's been in
that job since 99 I guess and done

01:05:52.329 --> 01:05:58.456
a fantastic job. His, The ability to
raise money is evidently better in

01:05:58.489 --> 01:06:02.566
mind because they raised more per year
than I used to raise when I was

01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:07.736
director of camps. But of course you
can say it's now 15, 20 years old or

01:06:07.769 --> 01:06:13.276
maybe 25 years old now? And uh, We are
20 years old. And so it's got a

01:06:13.309 --> 01:06:18.066
track record, which is very helpful.
That sounds like a big part of your

01:06:18.099 --> 01:06:22.367
job. There was raising money, Oh, I
was on an airplane once a week, going

01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:27.537
somewhere with my hand out or had out
trying to get money. And I remember

01:06:27.570 --> 01:06:31.856
I enlisted the help of some industry
people as a retired gentleman up in

01:06:31.889 --> 01:06:39.747
Scottsdale who was vice president,
Quaker, oats and vice president of

01:06:39.780 --> 01:06:45.046
the Railroad, not Southern Union
pacific Union, pacific. And then he

01:06:45.079 --> 01:06:51.427
retired and I convinced him he should
go with me on the road to talk to

01:06:51.460 --> 01:06:55.867
head the purchasing of companies.
Remember we Bill and I were a company in

01:06:55.900 --> 01:07:02.186
Pittsburgh goes back 15 years ago and
we were putting a, the verbal uh,

01:07:02.219 --> 01:07:07.086
pinch on this guy too. You know, you
ought to be a supporter of caps and

01:07:07.119 --> 01:07:10.637
you're using the research, why aren't
you? And you know, finally, he said

01:07:10.670 --> 01:07:15.227
, guys, wait a minute. He said, I have
one question. And we said, what's

01:07:15.260 --> 01:07:19.637
that? And he said, how much do I have
to give you for you to just get the

01:07:19.670 --> 01:07:26.767
hell out of my office? And we said,
well, Let's start with $10,000. He

01:07:26.800 --> 01:07:32.967
said, it will be in the mail in a
week. And it was, and we left, we left

01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:38.776
immediately And he still gives the
company still gives $10,000 a year. Oh

01:07:38.809 --> 01:07:42.376
well they don't come close to him. You
know, he said, I, what do I have to

01:07:42.409 --> 01:07:47.376
get you the hell out of my office?

01:07:47.409 --> 01:07:52.327
And as partly as a result of that
michigan State University and my, my old

01:07:52.360 --> 01:07:58.227
professor up there, john Hoagland
retired and he really needed to be

01:07:58.260 --> 01:08:04.256
remembered. So I, One of his ex
students came to the university and said,

01:08:04.289 --> 01:08:10.497
we'd like to give, I'd like to give
you 300,000 a check for $300,000. And

01:08:10.530 --> 01:08:15.836
have you established the john Hoagland
Scholarship fund and how I got

01:08:15.869 --> 01:08:21.527
involved in it? I don't know. But
anyway, the Dean there and I were

01:08:21.560 --> 01:08:25.847
talking and I said, you know, That's
not enough. I said you ought to take

01:08:25.880 --> 01:08:33.036
that $300,000 and piggyback that into
enough to endow fully endow a chair

01:08:33.069 --> 01:08:37.487
for Professor Hogan. Of course he's
retired. Um, even before, Well, you

01:08:37.520 --> 01:08:42.796
know, after I did, but he's still been
retired for 15 years. And the Dean

01:08:42.829 --> 01:08:47.937
said, you know, that's an interesting
idea. They said, who will head up

01:08:47.970 --> 01:08:54.506
the fundraising drive? And I said,
well, I said, get one of your real

01:08:54.539 --> 01:09:00.727
interested alums and bob Duncan said,
well, hal you're an alum of michigan

01:09:00.760 --> 01:09:07.097
state. I said, okay, So I headed up
the drive and we did raise $2 million

01:09:07.130 --> 01:09:14.326
dollars and I'm having lunch today
with Dean Duncan up in Scottsdale. So

01:09:14.359 --> 01:09:19.097
we still keep in touch. Thank you. You
mentioned, you know the kind of

01:09:19.130 --> 01:09:22.406
research you were doing was things
that will help industry. Do you think

01:09:22.439 --> 01:09:28.527
of an example of a particular research
project? Well, I started a Arizona

01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:34.677
business conditions study where we
surveyed uh purchasing managers around

01:09:34.710 --> 01:09:42.710
the state every month and then put out
a really a press release, a news

01:09:44.420 --> 01:09:49.737
release, whatever that attempted to
say what's happened to the economy in

01:09:49.770 --> 01:09:55.397
Arizona for in the last month and make
some projections about what does

01:09:55.430 --> 01:10:02.406
that say about the economy down the
road. And I uh I ran that project as

01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:06.626
an S. U. Faculty member for

01:10:06.659 --> 01:10:13.237
Golly. I ran it for about 25 years
every month and it is still run, but

01:10:13.270 --> 01:10:20.227
now it's run by the center for
Business Research in the Kerry school

01:10:20.260 --> 01:10:24.467
because I'm not I'm not involved in it
anymore at all. And uh Professor

01:10:24.500 --> 01:10:29.496
Knox of the economics faculty and I
did for I think it was about three

01:10:29.529 --> 01:10:37.529
years. We did a half hour Television
show once a month on Channel eight. I

01:10:38.489 --> 01:10:42.237
know what they called it. They
probably called it the the economic outlook

01:10:42.270 --> 01:10:47.906
, but it was always referred to as the
bob and house show. And it was a

01:10:47.939 --> 01:10:53.406
lot of fun. Absolute. A lot of fun to
be in front of the camera for 30

01:10:53.439 --> 01:10:57.456
minutes and go back and forth about.
Well, so what is what are the

01:10:57.489 --> 01:11:01.866
employment figures really mean? And
you know, why do we think prices are

01:11:01.899 --> 01:11:06.626
going to stabilize and etcetera and I
still am very interested in that.

01:11:06.659 --> 01:11:12.666
But in all honesty once I went to caps
I just really didn't have time to

01:11:12.699 --> 01:11:16.937
do that anymore. So that's when I
turned it over to the Kerry school and

01:11:16.970 --> 01:11:20.836
said you people have to do it. They
are, they're doing it. And what years

01:11:20.869 --> 01:11:25.147
was the tv show on? I couldn't even
tell you. Absolutes couldn't I don't

01:11:25.180 --> 01:11:31.317
have any any recollection of what it
was. Well it had it had been in the

01:11:31.350 --> 01:11:39.350
90s, Teen early 80s. Probably Glenn
Wilt was the moderator. I think Glenn

01:11:39.649 --> 01:11:43.817
is still on the faculty at A. S. U.
And bob Knox was chairman of the

01:11:43.850 --> 01:11:48.477
economics department, I was chairman
of the management department. And

01:11:48.510 --> 01:11:55.887
then we used to do an annual january
1st, second big big forecast meeting

01:11:55.920 --> 01:12:03.046
down town. Typically at the Del Webb
townhouse, we used to get 1200 1300

01:12:03.079 --> 01:12:09.786
people attending the luncheon forecast
and it was fun. It really was fun.

01:12:09.819 --> 01:12:14.586
No, no, no. I'm sure there must be
copies somewhere but I sure don't have

01:12:14.619 --> 01:12:19.737
any of them. I, you know that that's
something that's way in the past as

01:12:19.770 --> 01:12:23.517
far as I'm concerned

01:12:23.550 --> 01:12:28.876
talking about the caps and that the
research part. How is that related to

01:12:28.909 --> 01:12:33.916
the Institute for Supply Management?
Well, um

01:12:33.949 --> 01:12:39.286
Oh yeah but there's the national arts
was Arizona uh it's sort of a long

01:12:39.319 --> 01:12:46.256
story, but make it very short. Um When
I started caps I said this has to

01:12:46.289 --> 01:12:48.706
be self funding

01:12:48.739 --> 01:12:51.517
and they said yeah that's a great
idea. And I said, well let's think about

01:12:51.550 --> 01:12:56.196
self funding. Should the National
Association of Purchasing Management be

01:12:56.229 --> 01:13:01.036
one of the people who helps fund it?
It won't be the university. And they

01:13:01.069 --> 01:13:09.069
said, yeah, interesting idea. We will
consider providing some funding for

01:13:09.510 --> 01:13:14.196
a center for Advanced purchasing
Studies. And as a matter of fact they

01:13:14.229 --> 01:13:22.006
provided the money to pay the rent
down at the park for the first year or

01:13:22.039 --> 01:13:25.987
two years. I don't know how what
period of time was. And so they would

01:13:26.020 --> 01:13:30.336
come out to Tempe occasionally to
visit. They said this is a fascinating

01:13:30.369 --> 01:13:37.366
area. So I finally convinced him to
have one of their three national board

01:13:37.399 --> 01:13:43.477
of Directors meetings out in Tempe in
the winter. You know, they came out

01:13:43.510 --> 01:13:50.616
my gosh, did they love it out here? So
we finally convinced them to move

01:13:50.649 --> 01:13:54.336
out of new york city and move down to
the A. S. U. Research Park. They

01:13:54.369 --> 01:13:59.467
were the first building built. Now I
want the first building built, they

01:13:59.500 --> 01:14:03.586
were the first building built and
occupied. The university had built

01:14:03.619 --> 01:14:09.946
buildings but they were empty. Our
building was built by a architect and A

01:14:09.979 --> 01:14:14.086
PM hired or the now it's called the
instant Supply Management. Then it was

01:14:14.119 --> 01:14:17.286
the National association purchasing
management. They hired the architect,

01:14:17.319 --> 01:14:22.156
they paid for the building, etcetera,
etcetera. And one of the agreements

01:14:22.189 --> 01:14:28.277
was they would give caps, free space
in the building. Okay, so that's the

01:14:28.310 --> 01:14:33.196
tie in between the center for Advanced
purchasing Studies and caps. So

01:14:33.229 --> 01:14:37.987
it's a joint project between into
supply management and the Kerry school.

01:14:38.020 --> 01:14:40.506
 Now,

01:14:40.539 --> 01:14:46.307
one other thing I didn't ask you
about, I noticed on your resume that you

01:14:46.340 --> 01:14:52.126
served on several appointments from
the Governor's, I

01:14:52.159 --> 01:15:00.107
was approached to make a, Oh gosh,
this goes back probably to 1960

01:15:00.140 --> 01:15:06.097
three or 64. It was soon after I got
here. They

01:15:06.130 --> 01:15:12.847
Arizona was the only state in the
union that did not have centralized

01:15:12.880 --> 01:15:19.296
procurement. Every agency did their
own thing. And I became aware of that

01:15:19.329 --> 01:15:23.376
because of my membership in the
purchasing Management Association of

01:15:23.409 --> 01:15:30.687
Arizona. And so the association went
to the Governor's office and said,

01:15:30.720 --> 01:15:35.607
you know, this is ridiculous that
we're the only one of the at that point

01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:39.876
was that 48 states or I don't know
where Alaska and Hawaii were at the end

01:15:39.909 --> 01:15:47.909
, but he said we should consider that.
So he asked the association ah, to

01:15:49.939 --> 01:15:57.777
basically do a study of this and he
appointed me as the chairman of the

01:15:57.810 --> 01:16:02.897
study group. We did the study, believe
it or not. And then we went to the

01:16:02.930 --> 01:16:09.796
legislature and introduced and they
introduced the bill, which failed. So

01:16:09.829 --> 01:16:13.296
we were determined, we went back the
following year and introduced another

01:16:13.329 --> 01:16:19.086
bill it passed. And so the state of
Arizona now has a central purchasing

01:16:19.119 --> 01:16:24.666
department that does not do all the
purchasing for the state for example

01:16:24.699 --> 01:16:28.717
Arizona State University still has its
own purchasing department but it

01:16:28.750 --> 01:16:33.817
does all the purchasing for the
agencies which are not large enough to

01:16:33.850 --> 01:16:39.836
really be able to afford a really
first class purchasing operation the

01:16:39.869 --> 01:16:46.796
governor at that time. Ah

01:16:46.829 --> 01:16:49.097
well

01:16:49.130 --> 01:16:55.137
I can't really even tell you who the
guy it was had to be before Bruce

01:16:55.170 --> 01:17:00.796
babbitt. I don't know who the governor
was even then.

01:17:00.829 --> 01:17:05.866
Well Wesley was not there that long.
He was his Raul. Castro Castro was

01:17:05.899 --> 01:17:10.717
role as a matter of fact I was down
making some speeches in Argentina

01:17:10.750 --> 01:17:17.406
during the time that role was was the
ambassador. So I called the embassy

01:17:17.439 --> 01:17:23.317
and I said Professor Karen from
Arizona State University. I realized that

01:17:23.350 --> 01:17:28.876
that the honorable, whatever we called
him uh ambassador is is very busy

01:17:28.909 --> 01:17:31.967
but I just thought I would let you
know I'm in town for the next two or

01:17:32.000 --> 01:17:37.456
three days should he want to talk to
me. And sure enough I got a call that

01:17:37.489 --> 01:17:43.107
evening from the embassy and said well
we will have and Basically an

01:17:43.140 --> 01:17:49.737
armoured car at your hotel the next
afternoon at 3:00 and the ambassador

01:17:49.770 --> 01:17:53.897
would like to talk to you. So I was
there and it, I won't say it was an

01:17:53.930 --> 01:17:58.817
armored car but it was a big black car
with marine protection and took me

01:17:58.850 --> 01:18:02.487
over to the embassy which was really a
fortress. And I went in and spent

01:18:02.520 --> 01:18:08.237
about an hour with Castro and because
we had a lot of, we knew a lot of

01:18:08.270 --> 01:18:12.397
people in common and he was
interesting. Well he's still, I don't know if

01:18:12.430 --> 01:18:16.487
he still practices law. He did until
recently practiced law and up in

01:18:16.520 --> 01:18:21.767
Scottsdale he may still be practicing
law. Oh is he down in Nogales now?

01:18:21.800 --> 01:18:27.147
Okay. I have not talked to him in in
years, Bruce babbitt then appointed

01:18:27.180 --> 01:18:34.546
me, oh and I don't know how many years
ago this was to be the one of the

01:18:34.579 --> 01:18:39.187
members of the state of Arizona

01:18:39.220 --> 01:18:42.687
public

01:18:42.720 --> 01:18:48.286
A. S. P. R. S. Arizona state

01:18:48.319 --> 01:18:53.796
public safety retirement fund and it
handles the retirement for the

01:18:53.829 --> 01:18:59.317
highway patrol, basically all of the
police departments, the fire

01:18:59.350 --> 01:19:05.296
departments, the prisons, the judges
etcetera etcetera. And he appointed

01:19:05.329 --> 01:19:12.527
me to that group of three that run the
investment fund. And then at the

01:19:12.560 --> 01:19:19.677
end of the term of the person who was
the fund manager, I. E. The chairman

01:19:19.710 --> 01:19:24.967
of the, he appointed me as the fund
manager or the chairman of the group

01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:32.196
and I ran it for I guess three years.
And we too, I tell people, well they

01:19:32.229 --> 01:19:37.637
said how did you do? And I said well
you know, hey when I became the fund

01:19:37.670 --> 01:19:45.237
, pardon me fund manager we had a
portfolio of about $500 million. When I

01:19:45.270 --> 01:19:50.887
left three years later we had a
portfolio of over a billion dollars and

01:19:50.920 --> 01:19:55.517
they said, oh you did a great job. And
my answer was, yeah, but let me

01:19:55.550 --> 01:20:02.897
tell you, I'd rather be lucky than
smart any time the market did us great

01:20:02.930 --> 01:20:09.057
favors and we were very, very lucky
and when I left the fund it was in

01:20:09.090 --> 01:20:11.817
very good shape. It's still in very
good shape, still in very good shape,

01:20:11.850 --> 01:20:15.647
interesting, interesting. It was pro
bono non paid, I didn't even get any

01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:20.706
expenses but it was interesting,
interesting experience. It's one of the

01:20:20.739 --> 01:20:26.086
things that got me really up to speed
in the investment business Because

01:20:26.119 --> 01:20:29.817
you know, we were running a $500
million dollars portfolio. You had to be

01:20:29.850 --> 01:20:35.876
up to speed to do that. And I it was a
great experience, absolutely great

01:20:35.909 --> 01:20:41.076
experience. Um but you know, after I
had been there for about six years,

01:20:41.109 --> 01:20:45.467
it was enough. You know, you can only
do any one thing for so long, you

01:20:45.500 --> 01:20:47.977
were doing all those things while you
were still chair of the department

01:20:48.010 --> 01:20:54.777
to So that must have been. Yeah. And
then one summer, huh? They had a

01:20:54.810 --> 01:21:02.810
problem at there's a state hospital,
very serious problem. And

01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:06.616
the then governor and I don't remember
again who it was leaned on john

01:21:06.649 --> 01:21:09.777
Travolta and

01:21:09.810 --> 01:21:13.687
they convinced me I should go down
there as the materials manager of the

01:21:13.720 --> 01:21:17.366
state hospital, which I did for three
months. I think we got it

01:21:17.399 --> 01:21:22.027
straightened out. There was no way in
the world I was gonna stay there,

01:21:22.060 --> 01:21:26.696
you know, that was fine. Three months
is great. But I was going back as a

01:21:26.729 --> 01:21:30.666
faculty member then in september,
which I did, which I've had a lot, had a

01:21:30.699 --> 01:21:35.847
lot of opportunities here, which I
just would not have had if I had gone

01:21:35.880 --> 01:21:40.397
to Ohio State or indiana as a faculty
member because they had a whole

01:21:40.430 --> 01:21:44.496
complement of very experienced people
there already. This was a small

01:21:44.529 --> 01:21:49.897
place, It was growing, you could
accomplish something and see the results

01:21:49.930 --> 01:21:54.427
of it. Great experience for me. Did
you ever think it would grow to the

01:21:54.460 --> 01:21:59.336
extent that it has today when you came
here in 1961, absolutely not. And

01:21:59.369 --> 01:22:03.196
uh, we're not that close to the
university anymore. Probably don't get on

01:22:03.229 --> 01:22:09.076
campus once a year, twice a year. Um,
and you know, as with a lot of the

01:22:09.109 --> 01:22:16.876
retired faculty, we say, you know
what, this was a nicer place 35 or 40

01:22:16.909 --> 01:22:22.906
years ago, you didn't have the
traffic, you had a lot of green space. Uh,

01:22:22.939 --> 01:22:28.677
but I also tell people the university
is a far better university than it

01:22:28.710 --> 01:22:33.987
was in 1961 when we came here. It
really was, faculty is better. The

01:22:34.020 --> 01:22:38.527
program is better. Their ability to do
things is much greater than it used

01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:42.416
to be. But by the way, you can say the
same thing when I graduated from

01:22:42.449 --> 01:22:48.477
Michigan State University in 1961. Was
it a good university? Yes. Was it a

01:22:48.510 --> 01:22:55.456
great university. No, but it may be
approaching greatness now. And uh, you

01:22:55.489 --> 01:22:59.536
know, you have to have maturity,
seasoning, etcetera etcetera. Which I

01:22:59.569 --> 01:23:05.470
think is what Arizona State University
has gotten Over the last 40 years.

01:23:06.000 --> 01:23:08.000
Some departments and people we've talked to struggled with budgets and

01:23:09.340 --> 01:23:13.277
things as department heads. Yeah.

01:23:13.310 --> 01:23:17.406
We always had struggles. And you, you
talked talked about an interesting

01:23:17.439 --> 01:23:22.567
incident. I submitted my budget
request one year

01:23:22.600 --> 01:23:27.647
and we had an increase in students but
not a huge one. And my budget

01:23:27.680 --> 01:23:33.217
request was for slightly less money
than I'd had the previous year. Well,

01:23:33.250 --> 01:23:37.576
let me tell you, I was called on the
carpet immediately and told you do

01:23:37.609 --> 01:23:43.126
not submit a budget request for less
than you currently have. You just

01:23:43.159 --> 01:23:47.006
don't do that. And I said, well, we've
made some, we don't want to hear

01:23:47.039 --> 01:23:51.906
that. We want to know what kind of an
increase are you going to request? I

01:23:51.939 --> 01:23:58.267
thought that was a classic example of
bureaucracy.

01:23:58.300 --> 01:24:04.357
Mm hmm. I had a question from
professor,

01:24:04.390 --> 01:24:10.817
you seem to have been a professor at
the beginning or maybe before the

01:24:10.850 --> 01:24:16.987
computer. Can you just a little bit of
how the computer changed all, all

01:24:17.020 --> 01:24:21.527
that? Well, yeah, when I joined. Well,
hey, when I did my dissertation at

01:24:21.560 --> 01:24:25.246
Michigan state, it was done on the
computer. Yeah, on the computer. Was

01:24:25.279 --> 01:24:30.156
done with IBM punch cards. And let me
tell you it was a it was a nightmare

01:24:30.189 --> 01:24:35.737
when I got to A S. U. I'm not even
sure the university had a computer.

01:24:35.770 --> 01:24:41.506
Certainly there were no computers in
the departments or anything. And It

01:24:41.539 --> 01:24:48.727
as I remember it, I left in 89. The
computer sort of arrived in about 1980

01:24:48.760 --> 01:24:56.177
I'm gonna guess was when it arrived.
And let me tell you it sorely sorely

01:24:56.210 --> 01:25:00.826
needed and you know, we fumbled the
ball many times in getting it to

01:25:00.859 --> 01:25:08.076
really work for us. But finally it got
to where it produced useful

01:25:08.109 --> 01:25:12.927
information that you could make some
decisions based on. And let me

01:25:12.960 --> 01:25:20.256
suggest caps could not operate without
their computer systems because

01:25:20.289 --> 01:25:25.557
50% of what they do is computer based
now. You know the benchmarking is

01:25:25.590 --> 01:25:32.857
all computerized. When I started those
studies Back in 1990 they were

01:25:32.890 --> 01:25:38.256
pretty much done with a hand
calculator and a ballpoint pen. Well gee who

01:25:38.289 --> 01:25:43.357
is that was not very efficient at all
now it's all data entered into the

01:25:43.390 --> 01:25:47.897
computer and uh you know the
calculations are all made. So it's had an

01:25:47.930 --> 01:25:53.916
amazing effect on the university and

01:25:53.949 --> 01:25:59.946
all parts of the university And
certainly I would think oh yes absolutely.

01:25:59.979 --> 01:26:04.567
Absolutely. Looking back over your
career with a S. You, is there

01:26:04.600 --> 01:26:09.996
anything that you can think of that
you're proudest of? Well yeah I guess

01:26:10.029 --> 01:26:16.946
the the one, well two things I would,

01:26:16.979 --> 01:26:21.586
three things I guess I would list
first would be. I'm very proud of the

01:26:21.619 --> 01:26:26.807
success that some of my students have
had once they left the university.

01:26:26.840 --> 01:26:33.406
You know, they got a very good
treatment here at A S. U. And they made the

01:26:33.439 --> 01:26:37.506
most of it and you have to be proud of
those kinds of things. Secondly, I

01:26:37.539 --> 01:26:44.296
started the first academic journal, I
guess maybe the first one ever to be

01:26:44.329 --> 01:26:47.746
at A. S. U. It was certainly the first
one ever to be in the College of

01:26:47.779 --> 01:26:51.696
Business and was the first one ever in
the purchasing materials field. The

01:26:51.729 --> 01:26:55.987
Journal of purchasing and materials
management was started at A. S. U.

01:26:56.020 --> 01:27:03.397
1965. I was its editor for 10 years
and then it moved to new york city is

01:27:03.430 --> 01:27:08.326
still in operation, still being
published. I'm very proud of that and the

01:27:08.359 --> 01:27:16.359
fact that you know, 40 years later
it's still going. And then the last

01:27:16.689 --> 01:27:22.357
thing that I am certainly proud of is
the success that caps has had in

01:27:22.390 --> 01:27:28.116
terms of being the the preeminent
research organization in the world, in

01:27:28.149 --> 01:27:33.296
the purchasing materials field. And uh
and I'm very happy it is at A. S. U.

01:27:33.329 --> 01:27:38.097
 And it will always be at A. S. U.

01:27:38.130 --> 01:27:41.946
I have assured that that's correct.

01:27:41.979 --> 01:27:46.256
Okay, what kind of advice do you give
to young people today that might be

01:27:46.289 --> 01:27:49.777
just trying to decide what they want
to do with their life and their, well

01:27:49.810 --> 01:27:54.796
my advice is usually pretty simple. I
have always been in the business

01:27:54.829 --> 01:28:00.246
field, I've been, you know, greatly
successful in the business field. I've

01:28:00.279 --> 01:28:06.137
enjoyed it really. I, one thing I
didn't mention, one of the things I did

01:28:06.170 --> 01:28:11.937
was it while I was at A S. U. Or after
I started getting, I was one of the

01:28:11.970 --> 01:28:17.366
six people who started the real slow
to bank in Tempe and it's now the

01:28:17.399 --> 01:28:21.536
National Bank of Arizona down on
southern, that big tall building down

01:28:21.569 --> 01:28:29.569
there. Um, I've always been been
blessed with success in the field. So I

01:28:30.210 --> 01:28:37.267
would suggest that you might want to
consider, but what you really have to

01:28:37.300 --> 01:28:45.300
do is what you want to do. And if you
tell me that I'm just convinced I

01:28:47.550 --> 01:28:54.366
could be a concert violinist, I would
say go for it. But let me tell you

01:28:54.399 --> 01:29:00.086
this young man or young lady, I want
you to become the best if you're

01:29:00.119 --> 01:29:05.326
gonna do it, I want you to be the
best. But if you want to write the great

01:29:05.359 --> 01:29:12.237
american novel and they're convinced
you can do it. Have at it. Okay. And

01:29:12.270 --> 01:29:18.166
You know, so I would say do what you
are comfortable doing and it's not

01:29:18.199 --> 01:29:23.116
necessarily business or engineering or
medicine, it may be any one of 300

01:29:23.149 --> 01:29:29.116
different things. I gave that same
advice to my kids, my boys, they both

01:29:29.149 --> 01:29:34.237
picked the business field, but I
guarantee you, I did not in any way

01:29:34.270 --> 01:29:38.647
encourage that, except I'm sure a lot
of it rubbed off because you know,

01:29:38.680 --> 01:29:42.857
they heard the discussions at the
dinner table all the time and so that's

01:29:42.890 --> 01:29:50.506
what they elected to do. Oh my my
goodness. One of them is Executive Vice

01:29:50.539 --> 01:29:54.967
President, Chief Financial Officer of
a company that employs about 60,000

01:29:55.000 --> 01:30:01.006
people and has revenues of about I
think there are 13 billion a year now

01:30:01.039 --> 01:30:06.217
all over the world. He loves it,
absolutely loves it. And the other son is

01:30:06.250 --> 01:30:13.126
a man, is president and owner of his
own investment fund in California. He

01:30:13.159 --> 01:30:18.036
runs about $270 million dollars a year
in investment money and he loves it

01:30:18.069 --> 01:30:22.046
, absolutely loves it. But I guarantee
you they are not doing that because

01:30:22.079 --> 01:30:25.496
I told them that's what they should
do, they're doing it because they

01:30:25.529 --> 01:30:30.217
decided hey it might be fun and they,
I've talked to both of them and I

01:30:30.250 --> 01:30:34.487
said now did you make the right career
choices? And they both said we love

01:30:34.520 --> 01:30:39.767
it, Absolutely love what we're doing.
So that's my advice very simply do

01:30:39.800 --> 01:30:43.876
what you want to do. When you started
off in your answer, you mentioned

01:30:43.909 --> 01:30:48.616
starting the rio salado bank, was that
something that you just wanted to

01:30:48.649 --> 01:30:52.126
do or No

01:30:52.159 --> 01:30:56.767
long story, but I'll make this very
short. I've always had my hair cut at

01:30:56.800 --> 01:31:01.467
raise a S. U. Barbershop Ray Bowles,
everybody in Tempe knows Ray Ray

01:31:01.500 --> 01:31:05.626
Bowles, he's the world's oldest and
richest barber. I was down there

01:31:05.659 --> 01:31:10.237
having my hair cut and I had just come
from home. I was on my way to the

01:31:10.270 --> 01:31:13.987
office but had gone home for lunch.
I've always lived very close to campus

01:31:14.020 --> 01:31:18.897
so I can go home for lunch. And and I
I stopped at the barbershop parked

01:31:18.930 --> 01:31:23.187
in the College of Business parking
lot, walked over to the raise a issue

01:31:23.220 --> 01:31:28.246
barber shop in the Temple center
having my hair cut. And I was saying you

01:31:28.279 --> 01:31:34.567
know Dottie was at her bank, our bank
where we bank for 20 some years and

01:31:34.600 --> 01:31:39.576
she was to cash a check and they asked
her for two items of identification.

01:31:39.609 --> 01:31:46.727
I said Ray there's something wrong.
Ray said hal why don't we start

01:31:46.760 --> 01:31:52.857
attempted bank? That's where it all
started. We and he was one of the

01:31:52.890 --> 01:31:59.616
founders to and and that was sort of
how how that got started. We don't

01:31:59.649 --> 01:32:04.057
own it anymore. It was bought out by
actually by Zions Bank or out of

01:32:04.090 --> 01:32:08.406
Saarland. Salt Lake City. So they go
under the name first National Bank of

01:32:08.439 --> 01:32:13.196
Arizona. There really wholly owned by
Zions bank or a Salt Lake City. It

01:32:13.229 --> 01:32:19.937
was a great idea. The bank was very
successful. I was sorry to see it sold

01:32:19.970 --> 01:32:26.706
because Tempe now no longer has its
own community bank but the price that

01:32:26.739 --> 01:32:32.217
the shareholders were was were offered
was such that you had to sell. You

01:32:32.250 --> 01:32:36.876
absolutely had to sell it. Which we
did. You did okay with it. Oh my

01:32:36.909 --> 01:32:42.477
goodness. I won't. Yes. It's going to
pay for a good part of my

01:32:42.510 --> 01:32:49.416
grandchildren's college education.
Yes. How do you start to think very

01:32:49.449 --> 01:32:54.027
carefully? Uh, you first go down and
get to know the state Banking

01:32:54.060 --> 01:32:58.206
commissioner and find out what hoops
you have to jump through and then you

01:32:58.239 --> 01:33:02.666
have to have an economic study to
prove that the community, the local

01:33:02.699 --> 01:33:08.637
economy really does need it and
etcetera etcetera. And then you've got to

01:33:08.670 --> 01:33:14.557
raise the money to make sure that if
the bank goes defunct, there's some

01:33:14.590 --> 01:33:20.737
money there to pay the, the depositors
and and away you go. It probably

01:33:20.770 --> 01:33:24.536
took us two years to get us started.
Yeah, it was, it was fun though. It

01:33:24.569 --> 01:33:28.147
was great fun. Great learning
experience. Absolutely. A great learning

01:33:28.180 --> 01:33:33.086
because I was chairman of the board
and chairman of the holding company

01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:38.217
board for a period of time that was on
the board the whole time. And great.

01:33:38.250 --> 01:33:41.267
Really was a great learning. If you,
if you talk about interesting

01:33:41.300 --> 01:33:45.786
experiences and I won't give them to
you. But boy, we had some interesting

01:33:45.819 --> 01:33:53.819
experiences like the time we naively
took as collateral a racehorse. Was

01:33:53.829 --> 01:34:01.416
that a bad decision? And then another
time we very naively took a persons

01:34:01.449 --> 01:34:05.506
airplane is collateral whether
blooming airplane flew out of the state.

01:34:05.539 --> 01:34:12.807
What a mess. But we learned we learned
we survived.

01:34:12.840 --> 01:34:15.437
Mm hmm

01:34:15.470 --> 01:34:18.717
any more interesting experiences.
Well, I can tell you several with the

01:34:18.750 --> 01:34:23.437
bank. Like we had a person on why I
was the only player we paid him by the

01:34:23.470 --> 01:34:28.817
job and his job was to hotwire cars as
needed. Because occasionally a

01:34:28.850 --> 01:34:32.996
person would would take his collateral
some, I probably shouldn't say this

01:34:33.029 --> 01:34:40.607
attorneys Mercedes and the loan would
go defunct. Well, we would find out

01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:46.927
what the guy's schedule was when he
was down attending a meeting in Tucson.

01:34:46.960 --> 01:34:50.006
Our guy would go down there and
hotwire the car and drive it back and put

01:34:50.039 --> 01:34:55.027
it in our garage and he repossessed it
for us. But we literally had a lot

01:34:55.060 --> 01:34:58.307
of instances where we had to do those
kinds of things. You know, and I

01:34:58.340 --> 01:35:02.777
don't know if it's totally legal, but
we did it. We got the car. How's

01:35:02.810 --> 01:35:08.616
that? I guess you gotta get that
collateral. That's right. That's right.

01:35:08.649 --> 01:35:12.746
We never did get the airplane back.
It's gone. We didn't know where it

01:35:12.779 --> 01:35:17.307
went.

01:35:17.340 --> 01:35:21.267
Anything else that you wanted to talk
about? You know, I think that's

01:35:21.300 --> 01:35:24.416
probably pretty well covers it was, it
was a great ride. I enjoyed every

01:35:24.449 --> 01:35:29.817
minute of it and I do it all over
again. But I'm also glad that it's

01:35:29.850 --> 01:35:34.906
behind me and not in front of me. How
do you want to be remembered here?

01:35:34.939 --> 01:35:40.666
Oh, at a. S. U. Or in the community.
Well, I want to be remembered as an

01:35:40.699 --> 01:35:46.786
honest business person who had the
community's interests at heart and the

01:35:46.819 --> 01:35:52.206
university's interests at heart.
That's the way I want to be remembered.

01:35:52.239 --> 01:35:55.737
Jr bobby. You have any questions you
wanted to ask? You know I can't think

01:35:55.770 --> 01:36:01.916
of any. The only thing you didn't
mention that. I was hoping you would. Uh

01:36:01.949 --> 01:36:09.666
oh when I joined the College of
Business uh Dino vermin Glenn Overman was

01:36:09.699 --> 01:36:17.326
the dean and he served as dean for
gosh 25 years maybe. And then he was

01:36:17.359 --> 01:36:25.359
replaced by uh Lonnie Bill rife as
acting dean. And then Bill Seidman

01:36:26.899 --> 01:36:32.637
became dean for about three years and
then john craft became Dean and then

01:36:32.670 --> 01:36:39.296
Larry Penley and now the current dean.

01:36:39.329 --> 01:36:44.397
And I learned from all of those
people.

01:36:44.430 --> 01:36:51.397
Ah I also learned that in no way did I
want to spend my time being deemed

01:36:51.430 --> 01:36:56.796
and why is that? Oh a lot of reasons
you can accomplish. I could never

01:36:56.829 --> 01:37:00.937
have accomplished what I accomplished
as being deemed. I could certainly

01:37:00.970 --> 01:37:06.097
never make the money that I made as
Dean.

01:37:06.130 --> 01:37:10.036
I don't think I'd have had the
satisfaction either. I mean it it's it's a

01:37:10.069 --> 01:37:15.597
very confining kind of existence. Oh
yeah yeah and I just you know I'd

01:37:15.630 --> 01:37:20.496
rather be on an airplane going
somewhere.

01:37:20.529 --> 01:37:27.416
He was our next door neighbor for for
about 15 years on Fairmont. Yeah.

01:37:27.449 --> 01:37:34.107
Yeah. We still live there. We built
the house our house in 65 66 we're

01:37:34.140 --> 01:37:39.666
still in the same house and he bought
the house next to us in about 70 and

01:37:39.699 --> 01:37:46.006
lived there till the Passed on, which
was about 95,

01:37:46.039 --> 01:37:52.267
I'm going to guess. Just just a wild
guess. Yeah, yeah. And, and by the

01:37:52.300 --> 01:37:59.357
way, I thoroughly enjoyed all the
presidents of the university. To gee

01:37:59.390 --> 01:38:06.126
homer, Durham was a, he was a real
gentleman. Absolutely. Uh, he left here

01:38:06.159 --> 01:38:10.746
and went to Utah as commissioner of
higher education and every time I'd be

01:38:10.779 --> 01:38:15.786
up in Utah and I did this two or three
times I'd have lunch with me homer

01:38:15.819 --> 01:38:23.819
and he was just fun guy to talk with.
And john Suada was a tough president

01:38:25.420 --> 01:38:32.336
who, I think he did a superb job. Of
course, it was a little bit of a

01:38:32.369 --> 01:38:37.406
problem with the athletic program uh,
during his and, and it, it, it

01:38:37.439 --> 01:38:42.217
absolutely wasn't john's problem, but
let me tell you when things go wrong

01:38:42.250 --> 01:38:49.567
, the buck has to stop at the top and
it did and it did. And he then had a

01:38:49.600 --> 01:38:53.746
pretty successful career building
houses after that. And we knew john very

01:38:53.779 --> 01:38:58.496
well, still know his wife very well,
Wilma, she's, she's a very good

01:38:58.529 --> 01:39:04.857
friend of ours and who was the
president of the atlantic. Sure, because

01:39:04.890 --> 01:39:10.116
Russ, J russell nelson. Oh yeah, Russ
was one of the investors in the bank

01:39:10.149 --> 01:39:13.777
and he did very well. He always
reminds me, he said, where can you point

01:39:13.810 --> 01:39:18.057
me to another investment hal that did
as well as that. And I'm saying Russ

01:39:18.090 --> 01:39:24.777
, you're going to be in line after
after me if we can find another one.

01:39:24.810 --> 01:39:31.067
And then I guess it was laddie lady
whom I really never knew because I had

01:39:31.100 --> 01:39:33.717
pretty much left

01:39:33.750 --> 01:39:39.256
the president of the university. Very,
very low key, very non directional

01:39:39.289 --> 01:39:42.786
,

01:39:42.819 --> 01:39:48.666
nice guy. He's a professor of finance
at University of Minnesota as I

01:39:48.699 --> 01:39:53.586
remember way back and

01:39:53.619 --> 01:39:59.546
you know, uh, of all of the people as
president, there's, there's no

01:39:59.579 --> 01:40:04.057
question. The person who really fit
the mold was gee homer, Durham. He

01:40:04.090 --> 01:40:08.876
really did fit the mold that I had of
a university president. Uh, he

01:40:08.909 --> 01:40:14.227
certainly has not been, was not nearly
as successful in the fundraising

01:40:14.260 --> 01:40:20.527
arena as the current president and as,
uh, as laddie cour, but that didn't

01:40:20.560 --> 01:40:23.897
used to be as much as the job. Oh, no,
that's right. It wasn't the job of

01:40:23.930 --> 01:40:28.887
the president was not fundraising. The
funds were supposed to come from

01:40:28.920 --> 01:40:34.876
the legislature and the tuition and

01:40:34.909 --> 01:40:42.246
we did that change. Hmm, interesting,
interesting question. And I don't

01:40:42.279 --> 01:40:47.147
know if you, hey, I'm sure there are
several books have been written on

01:40:47.180 --> 01:40:51.387
that, but I don't really know, I don't
know when it changed and I don't

01:40:51.420 --> 01:40:57.336
know why jane, it's, it's always been
the case at, it's always been the

01:40:57.369 --> 01:41:02.677
case at most of the premier
universities. I'm talking about the Yale's the

01:41:02.710 --> 01:41:06.296
darkness, the Harvard's the Stanfords.
It's always been the job of the

01:41:06.329 --> 01:41:12.067
president to raise money because they
had to have money to really higher

01:41:12.100 --> 01:41:18.456
distinguished faculty members? Oh,
they're all private. Ah And people

01:41:18.489 --> 01:41:22.677
don't like to hear me say this. But

01:41:22.710 --> 01:41:28.277
most of the really distinguished
universities in this country are private

01:41:28.310 --> 01:41:33.527
and probably always will be, probably
always will be private. Uh, and you

01:41:33.560 --> 01:41:37.036
may be able to gain on them and I
think Arizona State University has

01:41:37.069 --> 01:41:42.977
gained on them. No question, will you
be ever able ever to equal them? The

01:41:43.010 --> 01:41:48.607
answers. I doubt it. Just look at
their endowments. I mean it's mind

01:41:48.640 --> 01:41:53.116
boggling when you look at the
endowments of Harvard, Yale stanford. My

01:41:53.149 --> 01:41:58.826
gosh gee. And let me tell you, they
know how to raise money. They, we have

01:41:58.859 --> 01:42:04.487
our Children went to Harvard stanford
Northwestern and let me tell you,

01:42:04.520 --> 01:42:09.796
why are their fundraisers all over us
all the time? I mean, they, you know

01:42:09.829 --> 01:42:13.647
, it made our kids may have been there
25 years ago. It doesn't make a bit

01:42:13.680 --> 01:42:19.956
of difference. They're after us all
the time. Oh, there. After the parents.

01:42:19.989 --> 01:42:23.737
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, there after the
kids to in fact, our younger sons

01:42:23.770 --> 01:42:29.956
endowed a chair at stanford, The fund
manager one and they're after him

01:42:29.989 --> 01:42:34.487
all the time. As you might imagine.
Yeah. So one of the change, I don't

01:42:34.520 --> 01:42:38.777
know, there's gotta be a book,
probably going to amazon and type in uh,

01:42:38.810 --> 01:42:43.666
when did? And they'll probably come up
with six titles. Right,

01:42:43.699 --> 01:42:48.286
okay. Did we do it? Okay. I'm gonna
get to my luncheon with michigan state

01:42:48.319 --> 01:42:54.336
then. Hey, enjoy chatting with you.
It's always nice to reminisce and to

01:42:54.369 --> 01:42:57.246
do it in a non threatening environment
because I know nobody's ever gonna

01:42:57.279 --> 01:42:59.489
see this.