WEBVTT 00:00:01.040 --> 00:00:03.757 This is Monday, 00:00:03.790 --> 00:00:10.556 29, 2002. And we're doing an interview um for the A. S. U. Arizona State 00:00:10.589 --> 00:00:16.767 University retirees association living history video project. And we're at 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:20.986 A. S. U. At the corner of rural road and Apache boulevard at the visitor 00:00:21.019 --> 00:00:27.096 information center. And I'd like to let you introduce yourself um and 00:00:27.129 --> 00:00:33.006 start to give me your your full name and maybe your position at A. S. U. 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:39.747 My name is Roy Doyle. Uh I came to a. S. U. Originally as a student, but 00:00:39.780 --> 00:00:43.997 let me tell you about you probably want to know when I came as a faculty 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:51.457 member. Is that okay? I was a professor of education when I retired, I 00:00:51.490 --> 00:00:55.906 came as associate professor of education and principal of the pain 00:00:55.939 --> 00:01:01.506 training school uh in uh 19 00:01:01.539 --> 00:01:06.777 59 it was the last year that Gammage was alive and it was just after the 00:01:06.810 --> 00:01:12.736 name Change Initiative Back up then a little bit and talk about just a 00:01:12.769 --> 00:01:15.736 little of your background, don't you tell me about when you were born and 00:01:15.769 --> 00:01:21.087 where you were born? Okay. My grandfather was a pioneer, he came to farm 00:01:21.120 --> 00:01:25.706 in West Phoenix in 1892. 00:01:25.739 --> 00:01:33.739 And uh I was born in 1921 on a cotton farm by 59th Avenue and Thomas Road 00:01:34.049 --> 00:01:38.807 very close to that, a close to Cartwright school. My mother taught there 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:45.747 And uh I graduated from Glendale Elementary School in 1935 and from 00:01:45.780 --> 00:01:52.236 Glendale High School in 1939. I worked a year and then I came to ASU. As a 00:01:52.269 --> 00:01:55.807 freshman in 1940. 00:01:55.840 --> 00:01:59.637 About your growing up years you say your grandfather was a farmer. Did 00:01:59.670 --> 00:02:05.717 your father? Yes he was a farmer as well. He was a cotton farmer. And uh 00:02:05.750 --> 00:02:12.446 when the cotton farm failed it was during a period of time when it was 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:20.286 after World War One when the cotton market collapsed. And my father Who 00:02:20.319 --> 00:02:24.337 was trying to buy his farm at the time and had a mortgage mortgage, stored 00:02:24.370 --> 00:02:27.577 his cotton because he thought the price would come back up it didn't and 00:02:27.610 --> 00:02:32.367 he had to sell it. And we moved to Glendale at that time. Uh we moved to 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:39.196 Glendale 1930 and uh I attended Glendale elementary school then. So I grew 00:02:39.229 --> 00:02:43.207 up initially on a farm. But then I grew up in a small farming town because 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:47.797 Glendale was a small farming town. 00:02:47.830 --> 00:02:53.936 It was a tough time. I had a paper route. I delivered both the Republic 00:02:53.969 --> 00:02:59.286 and the Gazette in those days. Every morning I got up at 4:32 to go to 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:04.376 work and I carried the evening papers and would get home about 6:00 after 00:03:04.409 --> 00:03:08.186 work. And that was my routine when I was in high school. And what did your 00:03:08.219 --> 00:03:13.106 father do after? He gave up? Well unfortunately my father, he he worked 00:03:13.139 --> 00:03:18.256 for a while, he operated a little store and then he got a job driving a 00:03:18.289 --> 00:03:23.316 truck for the highway department but his health failed and he died when I 00:03:23.349 --> 00:03:27.226 was in the sixth grade. So that was right in the middle of the depression. 00:03:27.259 --> 00:03:32.827 So it was very hard for the family. I had two brothers and a sister and 00:03:32.860 --> 00:03:38.297 my mother fortunately had taught. So she started teaching again. There's 00:03:38.330 --> 00:03:44.606 somebody trying to yeah, quick break. 00:03:44.639 --> 00:03:52.639 Okay. Okay. Okay. 00:03:57.539 --> 00:04:05.006 Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I know exactly what you're saying is great. Mm hmm. 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:10.027 Um, talk a little bit about your mother went and taught school. Was that 00:04:10.060 --> 00:04:13.957 unusual in those days to have a working. It was the thing that was unusual 00:04:13.990 --> 00:04:21.990 about my mother. She had grown up in Oregon and she went to school at 00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:27.507 Oregon State University. And because the forestry program was the best 00:04:27.540 --> 00:04:31.596 program, she went into that program and got a bachelor of science degree, 00:04:31.629 --> 00:04:37.577 which was very unusual for a woman at that time. And she, her older sister 00:04:37.610 --> 00:04:43.447 , I was married to the minister of a little church. That was right by 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:48.116 Cartwright school. And uh, she and Cartwright school in those days was a 00:04:48.149 --> 00:04:52.156 two room school. She wrote to my mother and said there's a job opening 00:04:52.189 --> 00:04:56.856 here. So she came down from Oregon and filled that job and that's how she 00:04:56.889 --> 00:05:01.337 met my father, but she started teaching in Cartwright district when they 00:05:01.370 --> 00:05:08.046 were only, there was just the principal and one teacher. Yes. And I might 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.916 say one other thing about that, that was unusual uh, during the depression 00:05:11.949 --> 00:05:16.397 when my father was ill, he was ill for a period before he died. And when 00:05:16.430 --> 00:05:19.726 he was ill there was a very strict rule that married women couldn't teach 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:24.846 , they wouldn't allow her to teach. She got a job working in the school 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:29.627 cafeteria. But as soon as he died then they gave her a contract and she 00:05:29.660 --> 00:05:35.007 started teaching. But the feeling was so strong that there shouldn't be 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:40.606 two jobs in one family, you know and the woman should be at home and and 00:05:40.639 --> 00:05:45.986 teachers should be single. You know. So yes. So we've gone a long way 00:05:46.019 --> 00:05:53.087 since then. So you grew up with a mother that was educated in? Yes. Did 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:57.976 that affect your feelings about education? Yes I I think it did. I I 00:05:58.009 --> 00:06:02.426 hadn't decided at that point I wanted to be a teacher. I think I became a 00:06:02.459 --> 00:06:06.447 teacher because I came to the issue because that was really about the only 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:10.736 opportunity available to me. But the deeper I got into it the more I 00:06:10.769 --> 00:06:15.726 decided that's what I wanted to do. Have you been a good student? Yes. 00:06:15.759 --> 00:06:20.567 Well moderately good. I was a very good student at a. S. U. In fact I got 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:25.567 the more medal when I graduated as being the outstanding student. So I was 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:28.666 a good student. I wasn't such a good student in high school. I told you my 00:06:28.699 --> 00:06:33.796 work routine, you know that didn't leave a lot of time for studying. So 00:06:33.829 --> 00:06:37.236 what made you decide go back again and just explain about when you 00:06:37.269 --> 00:06:42.317 graduated from high school, What year was that? I graduated from high 00:06:42.350 --> 00:06:47.106 school in in 39. And I had an older brother who was at A. S. U. And a 00:06:47.139 --> 00:06:53.377 sister who was at A. S. U. So I worked for a year before I came on. I 00:06:53.410 --> 00:06:56.707 worked at what they called a soda jerk. You know I worked in a in a 00:06:56.740 --> 00:07:01.827 drugstore uh at a soda fountain. And why did you want to go to issue? It 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:06.317 wasn't even no no it was Arizona State Teachers College. It was really the 00:07:06.350 --> 00:07:11.236 only place available to me. If I went there I could get a job for my room 00:07:11.269 --> 00:07:15.906 and board. And it was it was in the depression. Almost everyone worked at 00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:22.317 A. S. U. Uh that the the school wouldn't have run without students. Uh For 00:07:22.350 --> 00:07:28.377 example the cafeteria only had two employees. Uh Mrs Kraus and her husband. 00:07:28.410 --> 00:07:33.147 Everything else was done by students. A friend of mine Don Ellis was 00:07:33.180 --> 00:07:37.676 manager of the cafeteria. That meant he managed all the work personnel, 00:07:37.709 --> 00:07:45.246 the students there and uh he uh the bookstore was managed by George Morel 00:07:45.279 --> 00:07:52.277 . I could go. There was a long long list students just worked and and for 00:07:52.310 --> 00:07:55.817 the most part they were poor people who came to issue because they 00:07:55.850 --> 00:07:59.296 couldn't afford to go anywhere else. What did you do when you were a 00:07:59.329 --> 00:08:03.967 student today Issue? What kind of work did I do? I started out sweeping 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:09.197 rooms, then I worked up to the point where I was the assistant to Mr 00:08:09.230 --> 00:08:15.106 Hoover who was the geography instructor. And in those days everyone who 00:08:15.139 --> 00:08:19.387 was in the education program had to pass a test in what they call 00:08:19.420 --> 00:08:23.567 geography locations, They had to know the Principal mountains, rivers, 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:27.366 continents, oceans of the world, the cities and countries, that sort of 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:32.856 thing. If they couldn't pass that test, they had to take a required course. 00:08:32.889 --> 00:08:38.957 That was a non credit course and they couldn't go on and get certified 00:08:38.990 --> 00:08:44.376 unless they passed that course. My my job after I moved up in the world, I 00:08:44.409 --> 00:08:50.606 taught that course as a student that non credit course for other students. 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:55.707 So did you plan to become a teacher? Yes. I decided at that time that I 00:08:55.740 --> 00:09:01.766 definitely wanted to be a teacher. Why? Well I guess part of it was the 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:05.136 fact that my mother had been a teacher and maybe there was kind of a 00:09:05.169 --> 00:09:09.707 natural thing, but I found I enjoyed it particularly when I got into 00:09:09.740 --> 00:09:14.407 student teaching. I did my student teaching half of it at the old 8th 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:19.407 Street School which was on the corner of 8th Street was university, you 00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:23.476 know, so it was a corner of what is now university and mail. There was an 00:09:23.509 --> 00:09:27.407 elementary school there, I did my student half my student teaching there 00:09:27.440 --> 00:09:31.337 and the other half at phoenix union high School and I just loved it. I 00:09:31.370 --> 00:09:35.577 loved interacting with the kids and I just got a great deal of pleasure 00:09:35.610 --> 00:09:40.866 out of it. So I was sure from then on that's what I wanted to do. What was 00:09:40.899 --> 00:09:45.327 a issue like when you first came here? Can you just describe it for us? It 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:50.856 was very small. I think it's hard for people to understand how how small 00:09:50.889 --> 00:09:56.996 it was. I don't know if I can tell you the exact enrollment but it was 00:09:57.029 --> 00:10:01.616 just a few few 100 people. It was about, well I might tell you a story to 00:10:01.649 --> 00:10:06.246 kind of illustrate when I did my student teaching at phoenix union phoenix 00:10:06.279 --> 00:10:10.307 union was big, it was one of the biggest high schools in the nation 00:10:10.340 --> 00:10:14.907 Because they were rather slow in building North I. And additional schools. 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:19.746 So it got up to about 5000 students. I was overwhelmed as a little 00:10:19.779 --> 00:10:24.957 country boy from ASU. Going to Phoenix Union, it was so much bigger, had 00:10:24.990 --> 00:10:29.766 so many more faculty and so many more students. So the nice thing about A 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:34.386 . S. U. It was small and we all knew each other. The fraternities were 00:10:34.419 --> 00:10:37.866 just local fraternities, they weren't national fraternities, we had an 00:10:37.899 --> 00:10:43.016 intramural sports program where we competed in all the sports and uh we 00:10:43.049 --> 00:10:48.577 had Wednesday night dances on campus in the the more building which was 00:10:48.610 --> 00:10:53.687 the women's p building at that time and it was just a fun small 00:10:53.720 --> 00:10:56.106 environment 00:10:56.139 --> 00:10:58.947 um described for us a little bit what it looked like, you mentioned the 00:10:58.980 --> 00:11:04.366 more building was there, What other buildings? Ah Well East Hall was there. 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:10.246 I lived in East Hall and that the quadrangle was where most people, most 00:11:10.279 --> 00:11:15.577 of the students lived. Uh East Hall, which is where the the high rise part 00:11:15.610 --> 00:11:21.407 of of Hayden Library is, it was located right on that corner. College 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:25.266 Avenue went right through campus in those days. And across College Avenue 00:11:25.299 --> 00:11:30.236 , the other part of the quadrangle was West Hall, North Hall and South 00:11:30.269 --> 00:11:37.207 Hall. The women lived in those halls. Uh The other men's dormitory was 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:42.677 alcohol and alcohol was over where the life science buildings are now. It 00:11:42.710 --> 00:11:49.927 was south, almost directly south from the well south from the the Gammage 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:57.327 home on campus. And that's south and a little bit east of old main who was 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:01.537 the president at the time when you were a student. Gammage was the 00:12:01.570 --> 00:12:07.016 president. And uh we knew him well, you know he was such a fun person. He 00:12:07.049 --> 00:12:12.447 we had softball games, you know, and he wasn't a great athlete, but yet 00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:17.776 he'd get up there and strike out and play ball with everyone. So he just, 00:12:17.809 --> 00:12:25.307 everybody knew him. He was when someone would come from off campus to be 00:12:25.340 --> 00:12:29.167 to interview students when one of the superintendents would come to campus 00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:35.067 uh that we set up a special table in the cafeteria for him, put a flower 00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:42.057 on the table and all. And uh he would he would uh meet for lunch with the 00:12:42.090 --> 00:12:46.307 person right on campus, you know, with the other students around. So 00:12:46.340 --> 00:12:51.526 everything was very congenial and you mentioned his house was on campus, 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:57.376 his house was on campus when I joined the faculty later as a principle of 00:12:57.409 --> 00:13:02.297 the pain training school. His son was in the in the school and I got to 00:13:02.330 --> 00:13:07.626 know his son when he was a small primary school child and watch him grow 00:13:07.659 --> 00:13:11.307 up to. 00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:15.606 You were talking about how the campus faced to the north in those days. 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:21.837 Yes, I and I'm is this an appropriate time to talk about why it faced west 00:13:21.870 --> 00:13:25.467 and how that came about? We might wait a little bit okay about your 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:32.907 student days. Okay. It was still sort of centered around the north. Yes. 00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:38.287 Mhm. You mentioned about sports, what sports did you participate? I 00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:43.876 participated in track and as a freshman and uh it was a great struggle for 00:13:43.909 --> 00:13:48.697 me to win. My freshman numerals 44 which was the year I was to graduate, 00:13:48.730 --> 00:13:55.886 but I was marginal. I ran on the the mile relay team, quarter mile. And so 00:13:55.919 --> 00:14:01.577 we scored a few, we we had our competition with phoenix, what they call 00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:08.606 junior college in those days. And Thatcher Junior college, they were the 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:13.717 Thatcher healer monsters as I recall and the freshman team at the U. Of A. 00:14:13.750 --> 00:14:20.776 And the freshman team at an au and uh I I pull vaulted and uh and what 00:14:20.809 --> 00:14:25.437 they then called broad jump. They now refer to it as a long jump. And as I 00:14:25.470 --> 00:14:29.667 say, I had to pick up a lot of third places and into a meat. So when 00:14:29.700 --> 00:14:35.407 enough points to get my numerals. But I was quite proud of those and we 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.947 didn't have, you didn't have the Sun devils yet then? No, no. We were the 00:14:38.980 --> 00:14:45.026 bulldogs in those days. Um, Is this an appropriate time to talk about? I 00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:51.217 was a cheerleader in those days. And uh, one of the things I want future 00:14:51.250 --> 00:14:59.250 generations of, of the sun devils to know that they come from a long proud 00:14:59.629 --> 00:15:06.896 line of bulldogs and the bulldogs in those days were as I said, we were 00:15:06.929 --> 00:15:13.457 kind of the country cousins always struggling uh for status. And uh, so we 00:15:13.490 --> 00:15:18.486 came from a long line of bulldogs that really grew up on the wrong side of 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:23.967 the tracks. And where as mean as junkyard dogs, you know, when provoked 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.557 and there was more than enough provocation from the U. Of A. They were 00:15:27.590 --> 00:15:33.827 constantly putting us down. And our, our chant was one to beat the you, 00:15:33.860 --> 00:15:39.707 their derisive response was 123 beat Tempe. They did everything in their 00:15:39.740 --> 00:15:45.797 power to keep us localized. They were the university, very jealous about 00:15:45.830 --> 00:15:49.486 the fact that the capital which they wanted when, when the 13th 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:54.596 territorial legislature created both A. S. U. And the U. Of a what the 00:15:54.629 --> 00:15:58.726 people in Tucson really wanted from that legislature. It was for the 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:03.807 capital to be returned to Tucson. That was a proud old community, you know 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:08.707 , a century before phoenix was anything and uh they didn't get what they 00:16:08.740 --> 00:16:14.276 wanted, but at least they got the university, the capital eventually came 00:16:14.309 --> 00:16:18.266 to to phoenix. So there was a lot of jealousy over that, but they never 00:16:18.299 --> 00:16:24.537 wanted to share this idea of university status with anyone else. So, so it 00:16:24.570 --> 00:16:28.917 was a long hard to struggle in connection with that. So the old bulldog 00:16:28.950 --> 00:16:33.177 yell, I'll demonstrate that for you later. But it was a very visceral kind 00:16:33.210 --> 00:16:38.907 of a yell. It wasn't this intellectual abc type stuff. The the year, the 00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:42.756 year that the yellow that followed was called with an A. And it was with 00:16:42.789 --> 00:16:47.807 an A. With an A. With an A. R. I Z O N A. And it ended Arizona Arizona 00:16:47.840 --> 00:16:52.577 Arizona state that is we, we were constantly reminding people, hey, we 00:16:52.610 --> 00:16:57.307 serve Arizona, we're not just a little small town school. 00:16:57.340 --> 00:17:01.927 I don't know if this is a convenient time to talk about this, but when we 00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:09.960 finally indeed did beat them in in 1950 very convincingly in football, the 00:17:10.140 --> 00:17:15.877 , to our dismay, the Arizona Republic had this headline, Can I show this 00:17:15.910 --> 00:17:23.910 to you upside down there. It is alright. Yeah. They, the fact it 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:31.336 illustrates the fact that even though the Sun Angels now this was in 1950 00:17:31.369 --> 00:17:35.576 the Sun Angels had been formed prior to that. The big boosters group were 00:17:35.609 --> 00:17:41.657 the town cats, that is the Arizona town cats in phoenix. We held pep 00:17:41.690 --> 00:17:46.776 rallies rallies at the Fox theater, for the matinee services on saturday 00:17:46.809 --> 00:17:51.417 afternoon, trying to get phoenix interested in supporting A. S. U. But 00:17:51.450 --> 00:17:55.877 that was a long, hard struggle and it wasn't until after the war really 00:17:55.910 --> 00:18:01.897 that they began to identify with a shoe. Tell you about pep rallies. You 00:18:01.930 --> 00:18:07.276 wrote something here about pep rallies and lighting the yes uh the pep 00:18:07.309 --> 00:18:12.806 rallies there were and there hasn't been anything like it in recent years. 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:16.976 Um The student body was rather small, you know, in a high proportion of 00:18:17.009 --> 00:18:20.976 the students were involved. I told you that a friend of mine, Don Ellis 00:18:21.009 --> 00:18:25.746 was manager of the cafeteria in anticipation of the pep rally, he would 00:18:25.779 --> 00:18:29.657 save the gallon cans in the cafeteria, fruits and vegetables and other 00:18:29.690 --> 00:18:34.377 things came in and after we got enough of those for every participant to 00:18:34.410 --> 00:18:39.996 have a gallon can. We, we, we had gathered sawdust from the lumber yard, 00:18:40.029 --> 00:18:45.357 we filled those with sawdust and poured kerosene in them. And so we wound 00:18:45.390 --> 00:18:50.177 our way up to the a on the beauty. Everyone carrying his own little can of 00:18:50.210 --> 00:18:55.177 sawdust with the kerosene in it and then ceremoniously we let them, this 00:18:55.210 --> 00:19:00.127 would be in the late afternoon lead a few years, I'll sing a few songs and 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.157 come on down the hill and then look back at our work and the a. Would be a 00:19:04.190 --> 00:19:08.377 flame on the beauty. You know, it was very exciting. It was quite a quite 00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:12.687 a tradition. Sounds like quite a sight. Yeah, it was fun. A little 00:19:12.720 --> 00:19:17.556 dangerous to, well not really. Kerosene doesn't burn like gasoline, you 00:19:17.589 --> 00:19:24.506 know. So kerosene was such a common uh product in those days because 00:19:24.539 --> 00:19:29.326 people cooked on wood stoves and coal. And in the summertime they cooked 00:19:29.359 --> 00:19:36.357 out on the screen porch with with a kerosene stove and the kerosene was 00:19:36.390 --> 00:19:40.506 available in all grocery stores. You know, 00:19:40.539 --> 00:19:44.036 I don't think they'd let them do that today though. No, probably not. 00:19:44.069 --> 00:19:48.607 They'd be afraid of some litigation. Someone would light someone on fire. 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:53.187 They're the ceremonials on the butte, go way way back to the old lantern 00:19:53.220 --> 00:19:57.397 walk, you know, way back in normal school days. So there's always been a 00:19:57.430 --> 00:20:01.407 lot of ceremony on that butte. 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:06.226 Um You mentioned in here the phoenix town cats. Yes. Well that was a 00:20:06.259 --> 00:20:11.526 booster group as I told you we were struggling so hard for status, but 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:15.357 people of means went to the U. Of a, you know, the people who wanted to be 00:20:15.390 --> 00:20:19.937 lawyers and engineers and that sort of thing. The poor people that wanted 00:20:19.970 --> 00:20:24.576 to be lawyers and engineers and the like they came to a S. U. So I would 00:20:24.609 --> 00:20:28.816 say at least half of our students weren't really uh inclined to be 00:20:28.849 --> 00:20:34.607 teachers but because of the U. Of a A. S. You couldn't offer any degree 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:40.467 except bachelor of arts in education. So one of my friends for example 00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:47.187 Elden uh who later was a congressman and and uh I worked for the FBI for 00:20:47.220 --> 00:20:53.006 awhile and was one of our illustrious alumni. He 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:56.076 he attended A. S. You not because he wanted to be a teacher eventually 00:20:56.109 --> 00:21:00.336 went to the U. Of A. To get his law school. His law degree at Howard 00:21:00.369 --> 00:21:04.427 Thompson was another very close friend of mine who became a Superior court 00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:11.217 judge who was a student here. So it was the the people of means who were 00:21:11.250 --> 00:21:14.717 the prominent people in phoenix that went to the U. Of A. And their 00:21:14.750 --> 00:21:21.907 booster group was a U. Of a booster group, not a not a Tempe A. S. C. Girl. 00:21:21.940 --> 00:21:27.417 So the phoenix town cats were you obey? Yes they were, they proceeded 00:21:27.450 --> 00:21:33.026 they were succeeded by the Sun Angels. And uh and shortly after the Sun 00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:39.306 angels were established uh they sort of died on the vine. 00:21:39.339 --> 00:21:44.657 You mentioned that you're something about conference champs in 39 40. Yes. 00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:48.407 The the interesting thing about our struggle with the U. Of A. We had 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:55.907 only beaten them two times when I when I joined the the student body there 00:21:55.940 --> 00:22:03.940 but finally we we were very successful two years when we would have beaten 00:22:04.970 --> 00:22:11.066 them but they wouldn't play us during those years. There was a ah there 00:22:11.099 --> 00:22:17.407 was concern about recruiting which they considered a violation. They you 00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:21.447 didn't have letters of intent in those days. And a number of outstanding 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:25.887 students that had gone to the U. Of A. And had worked there in the summer 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:31.826 were recruited by A. S. U. When dixie Howell came to campus. He was a big 00:22:31.859 --> 00:22:39.256 star all american uh player from let's see Alabama and he had he played he 00:22:39.289 --> 00:22:44.617 was a Rose bowl quarterback. And and when he came our fortunes turned and 00:22:44.650 --> 00:22:48.806 and we had very good teams. They wouldn't play us in protest to that 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:54.427 recruiting thing. So unfortunately we didn't get our chance to beat them 00:22:54.460 --> 00:23:00.877 until after the war. And immediately after the war uh we got together kind 00:23:00.910 --> 00:23:06.657 of a ragtag group of of returning serviceman that went down to the to the 00:23:06.690 --> 00:23:11.736 U. Of a. In an effort to sort of avenge the indignities of earlier because 00:23:11.769 --> 00:23:16.986 football was suspended during the war. You know. And uh when we went down 00:23:17.019 --> 00:23:23.847 there uh they beat us 67 to nothing. It's been called the massacre in 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:29.107 Tucson of that year. And it was and they left their first team in through 00:23:29.140 --> 00:23:34.927 the through all of that experience. And the response was so strong to that. 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:38.617 It's probably a good thing that had happened immediately after that the 00:23:38.650 --> 00:23:44.877 Sun angels were formed. They started support a. S. U. Not only athletics 00:23:44.910 --> 00:23:49.117 but a. S. U. Generally. And from that time on phoenix began to identify 00:23:49.150 --> 00:23:51.707 with A S. U. 00:23:51.740 --> 00:23:56.036 Tell me a little about the war years. Um what happened in that period? You 00:23:56.069 --> 00:24:02.687 were already a student? I was already a student and enrollment in from 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:08.707 1940 and 41 things stayed pretty stable. But after that when Pearl Harbor 00:24:08.740 --> 00:24:13.516 occurred, all of us went down and you know, we we had registered for the 00:24:13.549 --> 00:24:17.967 draft and it was rather common for the one of the problems the military 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.476 had. They needed just hundreds of thousands of officers, you know, and 00:24:22.509 --> 00:24:26.217 they didn't have the training facilities to accommodate that many. So they 00:24:26.250 --> 00:24:30.576 left them in school, the pilots, the ones who wanted to be pilots and and 00:24:30.609 --> 00:24:36.347 uh Marine Corps officers, Navy officers and so forth. So we we signed up 00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:42.266 and then in turn we were called to active duty and I was able to stay in 00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:50.299 school to the end of my junior year 1943. And at that time I went on 00:24:51.019 --> 00:24:54.107 active duty, 00:24:54.140 --> 00:24:57.996 I think we were talking about the war years about where you ended up 00:24:58.029 --> 00:25:02.697 spending the war years. Okay. I I went into the, I signed up in the Marine 00:25:02.730 --> 00:25:06.776 Corps in their officer training program when I was called first active 00:25:06.809 --> 00:25:10.377 duty, I went there, there wasn't room for everyone to be trained at 00:25:10.410 --> 00:25:13.816 quantico Virginia, which those were the Marine Corps schools there at 00:25:13.849 --> 00:25:18.637 Quantico. Uh they had to bring them in in phases, you know, so they sent 00:25:18.670 --> 00:25:23.667 us to what was called a V. 12 school. And N AU was declared a V. 12 school. 00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:29.097 So all the navy officer candidates and Marine officer candidates in this 00:25:29.130 --> 00:25:34.226 area. And and from a larger geographic area went to Flagstaff. And at the 00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:42.056 end I I went there in the summer of 1943. And in october of that year, I 00:25:42.089 --> 00:25:46.296 went to boot camp and after I went on through boot camp that I went to the 00:25:46.329 --> 00:25:52.407 Marine corps schools. And then I went overseas. Uh I went out from I was 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.697 hoping I could get back to phoenix, but I didn't, I shipped out from 00:25:55.730 --> 00:26:02.806 Norfolk Virginia went through the Panama Canal out to uh the Pearl Harbor 00:26:02.839 --> 00:26:10.036 area, flew from there to Guadalcanal and joined the the 7th 155 gun 00:26:10.069 --> 00:26:14.407 battalion that was that supported the first division when they came back 00:26:14.440 --> 00:26:19.326 to invade Okinawa. And then when the war ended, I didn't have enough 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:24.117 points to come home. I stayed on Okinawa for an extended period of time. 00:26:24.150 --> 00:26:30.607 And then finally in the spring of 46, I came home and was was married and 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:38.640 in 46, returned, well, I see. I returned to a S. U. In the fall of 46. 00:26:39.849 --> 00:26:45.506 That's right. And I lived in Victory Village. Then tell me about how you 00:26:45.539 --> 00:26:51.976 met your wife. I met my wife in Washington, D. C. She worked for the FBI. 00:26:52.009 --> 00:26:57.427 She she left home when she was 16 after she I mean 18 after he graduated 00:26:57.460 --> 00:27:03.847 from high school, she uh worked for the FBI doing secretarial type work. 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:09.927 And uh uh Dorothy Doyle Dorothy strong in those days. She had come from 00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:15.996 hibbing Minnesota and the liberty town for us was Washington D. C. Because 00:27:16.029 --> 00:27:19.796 we were at quantico Virginia. And I met her at a dance there. And we 00:27:19.829 --> 00:27:24.377 didn't marry until after the war when I returned. So you corresponded all 00:27:24.410 --> 00:27:29.467 those years? Yes. So we were we were newlyweds when we came back to campus 00:27:29.500 --> 00:27:34.986 and lived there in Victory Village. Tell me what was that like? Well you 00:27:35.019 --> 00:27:41.826 know I thought it was great. In fact my we lived in a small trailer and we 00:27:41.859 --> 00:27:47.796 had to share the there were common showers and and uh toilet facilities 00:27:47.829 --> 00:27:51.717 that were in like a quantity kind of arrangements separated by sex of 00:27:51.750 --> 00:27:56.437 course. But nothing like that available in those little trailers. And I 00:27:56.470 --> 00:28:02.717 can remember my wife and we cooked on a little Coleman stove. Uh She I 00:28:02.750 --> 00:28:06.306 really couldn't understand at first why she thought it wasn't great 00:28:06.339 --> 00:28:11.157 because I just come back you know from overseas and I lived in tents and 00:28:11.190 --> 00:28:14.927 when it rained off and you were out slogging through the mud and and I 00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:20.417 thought gee how cozy this little places but she uh she didn't like it too 00:28:20.450 --> 00:28:26.927 well but she she accepted it. Now Elden, my close friend uh had a little 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:31.857 daughter Caroline and she was just a little toddler at the time. And that 00:28:31.890 --> 00:28:36.857 qualified him to live into the family housing. And they were much larger 00:28:36.890 --> 00:28:40.917 units and they had their bathrooms and their showers and everything in in 00:28:40.950 --> 00:28:48.036 the unit. So we were quite envious of of them. How long did you live in 00:28:48.069 --> 00:28:53.046 Victory Village? It was called Victory Village. It was just a whole row of 00:28:53.079 --> 00:28:58.286 of these trailers that had been moved in. They were located where Gammage 00:28:58.319 --> 00:29:06.319 Auditorium is now now stands. And it was, it was a, it was a kind of 00:29:06.839 --> 00:29:10.867 social life there, you know, we identified with each other and that was 00:29:10.900 --> 00:29:15.427 just a little small community, you know? And uh, so that, that part was 00:29:15.460 --> 00:29:22.207 fun. Okay. I graduated at mid year and uh, I took a job working for the 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:27.377 state entomologist until the next september when I got a teaching job in 00:29:27.410 --> 00:29:30.306 the Madison school district. 00:29:30.339 --> 00:29:35.486 What did you teach? Okay. I started out teaching junior high and I taught 00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:41.947 pretty much the whole curriculum to my home room. Uh, I became principal 00:29:41.980 --> 00:29:49.127 of that school later and uh, I left that school as principal to become 00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.976 principal of the pain training school on campus. So that was, that was 00:29:53.009 --> 00:29:58.177 sort of my entree into the back into the university 00:29:58.210 --> 00:30:02.556 traveling here today. Didn't notice that before. Why don't you back up 00:30:02.589 --> 00:30:06.917 again and tell me about your, your first teaching job. Um, and how long 00:30:06.950 --> 00:30:13.816 you were there? Okay. My first teaching job was at Madison School # one 00:30:13.849 --> 00:30:18.917 and I spent two years. It wasn't her at all. As I said, I taught just 00:30:18.950 --> 00:30:25.996 about everything to uh 7th grade class and enjoyed it very much. I started 00:30:26.029 --> 00:30:30.887 each summer I was eligible for the G. I. Bill and I I wanted, you know, 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:35.907 I've always been kind of a small town boy and on that I thought I'm going 00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:39.907 to go to the most prestigious school I can find. And for teachers that was 00:30:39.940 --> 00:30:44.107 teachers college, Columbia University, you know john Dewey, the great 00:30:44.140 --> 00:30:48.627 education philosopher had been there and all. And so each summer I went 00:30:48.660 --> 00:30:52.836 back there after teaching for two years, I took a year off and got in the 00:30:52.869 --> 00:30:57.177 graduate program, taught for two more years and then went back and 00:30:57.210 --> 00:31:01.736 finished my coursework for a doctorate there. And that really is what 00:31:01.769 --> 00:31:06.266 allowed me then to come back to the the university and have some status on 00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:11.306 the university faculty. So you always had ambitions beyond just being a 00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:16.026 teacher. Well actually, yes, but not to be a superintendent or anything 00:31:16.059 --> 00:31:20.726 like that. I I wanted to be at the school level. You know, I always wanted 00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:25.907 to operate a school or teach at a school. 00:31:25.940 --> 00:31:31.417 Okay. You mentioned the pain school. Um tell me about what what was pain 00:31:31.450 --> 00:31:38.897 school. Okay, pains. The I. D. Pain training school had a long, long 00:31:38.930 --> 00:31:44.586 tradition on campus. Unfortunately. It burned in. Let's see if I can think 00:31:44.619 --> 00:31:51.107 of the exact date. It would have been uh 00:31:51.140 --> 00:31:58.217 About 67 or 68. The school burned and set up temporary headquarters in the 00:31:58.250 --> 00:32:03.137 old Cafeteria. In the meantime the university negotiated with the Tempe 00:32:03.170 --> 00:32:08.157 elementary School district to buy the old 10th street school And the 10th 00:32:08.190 --> 00:32:12.427 Street School. When they bought that five acres, it extended the campus 00:32:12.460 --> 00:32:20.460 from forest through Myrtle over to uh to university. And uh the that later 00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:27.617 became the the site where a number of buildings were built, you know, the 00:32:27.650 --> 00:32:33.147 the fine arts building is there, the music building is there to education 00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:38.687 buildings, farmer education building and and pain education building. Uh 00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:43.707 But they were built on our playground, you know, as time went by and in 00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:49.036 anticipation of the fact that damage auditorium was going to be built of 00:32:49.069 --> 00:32:54.377 the flag pole was erected at the end of 11th street. That was that park 00:32:54.410 --> 00:32:59.897 avenue kind of that comes in, you know, and and uh on you know, two ways 00:32:59.930 --> 00:33:04.566 separated by a little park space in the middle. So the whole campus then 00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:10.306 oriented to the west instead of orienting to the north as it had before. 00:33:10.339 --> 00:33:14.687 So I was I was at that vantage point, it was from that vantage point that 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:19.717 I watched a lot of things happen at A. S. U. So tell me what year was it 00:33:19.750 --> 00:33:27.117 then that you came, I came in 59 and uh President and I was so delighted 00:33:27.150 --> 00:33:31.117 to be, you know, it was a homecoming for me. I'd always been so closely 00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:36.536 involved with the university uh the year before that was the Name change 00:33:36.569 --> 00:33:41.976 Initiative, you know, where everyone got involved in the influential 00:33:42.009 --> 00:33:45.637 people in the legislature and others just absolutely refused to name us 00:33:45.670 --> 00:33:50.836 Arizona State University. And uh so everyone got involved in the 00:33:50.869 --> 00:33:56.076 initiative and I was the principle of Madison number one at that time and 00:33:56.109 --> 00:33:59.637 I have been very, very active, you know, the university might have had the 00:33:59.670 --> 00:34:05.377 influential people in the legislature and in various towns, but for years 00:34:05.410 --> 00:34:10.307 a s you had been sending schoolteachers out to every community in Arizona 00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:15.347 and we got extremely active. We all became very very active in that 00:34:15.380 --> 00:34:20.796 process. Um Jim Cressman was sort of the coordinator of all that and he 00:34:20.829 --> 00:34:27.546 kept us involved. And uh after the name was changed that very next year I 00:34:27.579 --> 00:34:33.316 came to A. S. U. And uh it was so exciting to be back. I felt that I knew 00:34:33.349 --> 00:34:37.427 President damage personally, you know, because as I said, it was such a 00:34:37.460 --> 00:34:42.967 small school and he, you know, he was so personable too, he greeted me so 00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:47.267 warmly like I was a long lost son, you know, when I came back to campus. 00:34:47.300 --> 00:34:51.776 So that was, it was nice and what was your first job when you came back to 00:34:51.809 --> 00:34:56.206 campus? I was principal of the pain of that pain training school. That's 00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:01.997 where most of this the students did their student teaching. Uh We also did 00:35:02.030 --> 00:35:07.347 a certain amount of research on various educational problems and we had 00:35:07.380 --> 00:35:12.486 one way vision mirrors for every classroom and observation room. So the 00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:18.506 education students came and observed instruction in all of our classrooms. 00:35:18.539 --> 00:35:23.477 And this was the old paint. This this was the 10th street school that was 00:35:23.510 --> 00:35:27.816 remodeled. Yes I should have it had burned when I. Yeah I should have made 00:35:27.849 --> 00:35:31.827 that clear. They when they bought the 10th street school the purpose for 00:35:31.860 --> 00:35:36.316 buying it. I think actually their purpose was the land acquisition but 00:35:36.349 --> 00:35:40.876 their purpose theoretically was to establish a school They remodeled the 00:35:40.909 --> 00:35:44.706 10th Street School as the i. d. pain training school. And that's when I 00:35:44.739 --> 00:35:49.947 came when it was remodeled and new and and it was a very exciting time for 00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:55.106 us 00:35:55.139 --> 00:36:00.597 because it's we talked about here. Tell me how did the school burn? You 00:36:00.630 --> 00:36:08.356 know I don't think they ever found out exactly how it burned. Uh The it 00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:14.876 was really a tragedy. Uh I. D. Pain was so highly identified with that 00:36:14.909 --> 00:36:22.227 school. He had laid out the plan for it and uh was so active as the as the 00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:26.967 principle of it, you know as the head of it at that time at the time they 00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:31.586 had burned. He he had moved more into the university generally. He was not 00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:36.566 principal of the school anymore, he was a registrar and had jobs like that. 00:36:36.599 --> 00:36:43.796 And uh also he was into placement services. No one was hurt or anything. 00:36:43.829 --> 00:36:51.186 No, no, it burned at night. So no, no one was injured. 00:36:51.219 --> 00:36:58.497 It was, it was a major event. Big, big fire too. 00:36:58.530 --> 00:37:03.177 Um, Well tell me, you know, you came then to head up and headed up the new 00:37:03.210 --> 00:37:09.526 pains street school or pain school. Um, tell me about how your career 00:37:09.559 --> 00:37:14.206 progressed from there. Okay. I presided over the closure of the school. 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:19.706 The problem was that uh, they, there was kind of a general trend the 00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:23.677 university was getting so big. You know, that a little small school like 00:37:23.710 --> 00:37:27.236 that. We just had one kindergarten, one first grade, you know, through the 00:37:27.269 --> 00:37:31.557 eighth grade and most of our student teachers had to go out in the public 00:37:31.590 --> 00:37:35.646 schools anyway for placement and there was kind of a national movement 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:41.256 away from training schools and to rely more heavily on on public schools. 00:37:41.289 --> 00:37:45.927 So we saw the handwriting on the wall, we could see that it was going to 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:51.836 close and progressively we started closing down. Um, the grades, like when 00:37:51.869 --> 00:37:58.137 we graduated eighth grade, we, we'd not, uh, not included, not, you know, 00:37:58.170 --> 00:38:03.477 we'd cut back to just an uh, lower grade institution and finally we closed 00:38:03.510 --> 00:38:11.287 out completely and let's see if I can remember the date, it was About 00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:14.387 1968 as I recall, 00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:18.046 I meant to ask you to, you were obviously, you say you came here and Grady 00:38:18.079 --> 00:38:23.387 Gammage was still president. Remember what happened when he passed away? 00:38:23.420 --> 00:38:30.327 Yes, I I do remember how shaken everyone was particularly. We were at the 00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:35.816 at the campus laboratory school. His son was there, you know, uh 00:38:35.849 --> 00:38:41.407 Richardson who was the vice president continued as uh, as acting president 00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:47.816 for a while and uh it was just a time of deep mourning. He was he was just 00:38:47.849 --> 00:38:53.197 , you know, that the school was, he was the personification of the school. 00:38:53.230 --> 00:38:59.606 So it wasn't like just an ordinary circumstance where uh, President dies. 00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:06.686 You know, it was the whole institution was in mourning over that. Yes. 00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:11.517 And it came so soon after this great victory. You know, he he didn't live 00:39:11.550 --> 00:39:18.316 to see the memorial to him that was being established on the at the turn 00:39:18.349 --> 00:39:24.686 of the highway there. You know, the frank Lloyd wright famous building. 00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:28.146 Yes, he knew it was coming and he had been involved in the plans and 00:39:28.179 --> 00:39:32.486 everything, but it was, was completed after his death. 00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:37.166 It's going back to your career. Uh talk a little bit more, you know, you 00:39:37.199 --> 00:39:44.407 say you actually closed. Yes. Yes. When when the school closed, the 00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:49.477 founding Dean of the Modern College of Education was Dean G. D. McGrath. 00:39:49.510 --> 00:39:57.177 He joined the faculty in in 1950 and he went through all of those 00:39:57.210 --> 00:40:02.936 turbulent years. You know, when the College of Education grew separately 00:40:02.969 --> 00:40:08.577 from the other the other colleges and we really became a first class 00:40:08.610 --> 00:40:15.077 university, I joined him as assist as his assistant dean. And then when he 00:40:15.110 --> 00:40:23.110 retired, he was replaced by or succeeded by Harry New Bern and Harry New 00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:26.717 Bern was a person who had already retired as president of the University 00:40:26.750 --> 00:40:31.896 of Oregon. He had been teaching as kind of a retired professor in our 00:40:31.929 --> 00:40:38.876 department of Higher education. President Durham who succeeded damage uh, 00:40:38.909 --> 00:40:46.909 uh, placed him as, as the acting, the dean well employed him first as a 00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:52.316 regular dean following McGrath. But then later, when Durham left, he 00:40:52.349 --> 00:40:57.086 succeeded Durham and became acting president of uh, of a issue and was 00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:02.637 present for several years and he was followed by Del Weber and I was 00:41:02.670 --> 00:41:06.546 assistant, well then they called it associate dean, you know how they have 00:41:06.579 --> 00:41:10.126 the practice of not giving you any more money, but they changed the title 00:41:10.159 --> 00:41:13.936 and make it a little loftier. So I had been an assistant dean under the 00:41:13.969 --> 00:41:19.287 other two deans. But now suddenly I've become an associate dean with Dell 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:24.967 Weber and Dell left to become President of the Universe or Chancellor of 00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:30.367 the University of Omaha's at Nebraska and had a very successful career 00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:37.787 there just recently retired. So I enjoyed working with those first three 00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:43.117 members of the Modern college of Education in the Dean's office. It was a 00:41:43.150 --> 00:41:48.057 good life. How did you know, the whole college of education change over 00:41:48.090 --> 00:41:51.916 the years from the time you were here as a student, You know, your 00:41:51.949 --> 00:41:57.586 retirement, big, big, big, it just got so much bigger. But in another way 00:41:57.619 --> 00:42:02.006 it changed to it. We just turned out a couple kinds of practitioners, we 00:42:02.039 --> 00:42:08.066 turned out teachers and we turned out the school administrators, but later 00:42:08.099 --> 00:42:11.606 we started turning out a variety of practitioners, education psychologists 00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:18.077 , you know, librarians, whole whole variety of things. So the curriculum 00:42:18.110 --> 00:42:24.816 broadened a lot. The first doctoral program was for campus was organized 00:42:24.849 --> 00:42:30.727 in our college. It was the Doctor of Education program and that later, uh 00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:34.796 later a PhD program was established in other colleges, but the doctoral 00:42:34.829 --> 00:42:40.586 program was established, there was a great shift to graduate courses, so a 00:42:40.619 --> 00:42:44.097 much higher proportion of our people were graduates. Then another 00:42:44.130 --> 00:42:49.276 interesting change that took place as time went by, more and more of our 00:42:49.309 --> 00:42:53.836 students came to us from junior colleges. Junior colleges were established 00:42:53.869 --> 00:42:58.537 in Glendale and Scottsdale and Mesa. So a very high proportion of our 00:42:58.570 --> 00:43:02.977 students now started coming to us in the junior year instead of the 00:43:03.010 --> 00:43:09.066 freshman year. So teacher education had always been a four year program, 00:43:09.099 --> 00:43:15.046 but under Durham, I mean under New Bern, uh he realized this simply can't 00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:18.836 go on because so many of our people just aren't here in the freshman and 00:43:18.869 --> 00:43:23.506 sophomore years. So one of the first things he did in reorganization was 00:43:23.539 --> 00:43:27.486 changes to an upper division course so that you don't enter the college of 00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:32.626 Education until your junior year instead of your freshman year, so those 00:43:32.659 --> 00:43:35.867 were some of the differences. But I guess the big biggest difference was 00:43:35.900 --> 00:43:41.376 just getting so terribly big and unfortunately we got more impersonal, I 00:43:41.409 --> 00:43:47.657 guess it's just inevitable. But it, it wasn't like the cozy little group 00:43:47.690 --> 00:43:52.907 that we'd had earlier. So how big was the college when you retired? Oh, I 00:43:52.940 --> 00:43:57.856 wish I could give you numbers. I I can't tell you how big it was. But 00:43:57.889 --> 00:43:59.967 large. 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.177 Let's talk about some of the events that you remember. Um you made a note 00:44:04.210 --> 00:44:09.736 here, something about the campus protest in the 60s. Okay. Yes. Well the 00:44:09.769 --> 00:44:16.197 interesting thing about that uh I was liaison with the Marine Corps. They 00:44:16.230 --> 00:44:21.227 part of the ROTC was required, you know, in the early years, but you could 00:44:21.260 --> 00:44:25.137 get out of ROTC if you signed up in a program that would get you 00:44:25.170 --> 00:44:29.407 commissioned in one of the other branches of the service And the people 00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:32.717 interested in getting commissioned in the Marine Corps and there would 00:44:32.750 --> 00:44:37.666 normally be about 10 or 15 of them each each year. That would get 00:44:37.699 --> 00:44:41.807 commissioned that way. I was sort of the liaison with those people on 00:44:41.840 --> 00:44:48.557 campus because of, of my background. So I was, I was interested in 00:44:48.590 --> 00:44:52.396 meetings that they had and coordinating them. There were lots of student 00:44:52.429 --> 00:44:57.396 protests on campus with the Vietnam War and one of the things they did, 00:44:57.429 --> 00:45:01.276 they dressed up a dummy in a marine outfit and put it on campus for a 00:45:01.309 --> 00:45:06.276 while and then someone burned it at night and, and people thought and 00:45:06.309 --> 00:45:12.046 because the marines had, had protested that that use of the uniform, a lot 00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:15.256 of people felt that the marines had burned it, you know, to get it out of 00:45:15.289 --> 00:45:21.836 the way. But actually I was sure that wasn't, wasn't the case. Well I was 00:45:21.869 --> 00:45:26.387 close to the, the protest there from that vantage point that I told you 00:45:26.420 --> 00:45:34.420 about, I was in the farmer building at that particular time. Let's see. 00:45:34.690 --> 00:45:40.856 Yes, in the, I was in the pain education building at that time. But the 00:45:40.889 --> 00:45:45.137 flag pole was erected at the end of that street by where the old business 00:45:45.170 --> 00:45:49.646 college was and one of the, one of the big protests was the students came 00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:53.847 in large numbers, they were going to take down the flag and campus 00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:57.736 security got around the flag and there was a lot, a big struggle over 00:45:57.769 --> 00:46:01.927 whether the flag was going to be taken down or not. And as I say, we were 00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:06.416 close and we observed all of the hubbub that occurred and then they 00:46:06.449 --> 00:46:11.217 spilled over into the farmer building which was our basic building, 00:46:11.250 --> 00:46:15.747 disrupting classrooms and going through just causing all kinds of problems. 00:46:15.780 --> 00:46:19.166 But one of the interesting things was, some of our people were rather 00:46:19.199 --> 00:46:24.186 sympathetic with them and I, I recall it, nelson, Hey Gerson and others 00:46:24.219 --> 00:46:28.307 when the students came in, they were really very disarming in, in the way 00:46:28.340 --> 00:46:32.637 they treated them. The students came in wanting to fight about things and 00:46:32.670 --> 00:46:38.146 nelson and others talked to them about it. We're interested in their ideas. 00:46:38.179 --> 00:46:41.686 Nelson even said, do you people need access to an office, do you need a 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:46.537 telephone? And the interesting thing by the end of the day, there just 00:46:46.570 --> 00:46:51.296 wasn't much disruption. Uh, they wanted someone to listen to them, you 00:46:51.329 --> 00:46:56.066 know, and they thought no one would listen unless they just disrupted 00:46:56.099 --> 00:47:01.717 everything. But by the time it was over it was it quieted down compared to 00:47:01.750 --> 00:47:09.750 some other campuses? You know, I I think that the ROTC was housed then in 00:47:10.179 --> 00:47:14.086 old main and I think there was a fire bomb or something. There was a fire 00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:18.296 in that I wasn't close enough to that to know exactly what happened. That 00:47:18.329 --> 00:47:24.046 was the closest thing to real violence that happened on campus. 00:47:24.079 --> 00:47:28.896 It certainly was an interesting time. Um What about some of your other 00:47:28.929 --> 00:47:35.747 memories of during your career or any other events that really stand out? 00:47:35.780 --> 00:47:40.046 Think of anything. 00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:45.646 I think we've probably covered most of the, 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:50.497 the big points. I don't think of anything off hand. 00:47:50.530 --> 00:47:55.856 Yes, I'll think of a lot of things later. I'm sure that I should have said 00:47:55.889 --> 00:48:02.706 , Well, as I told you, two of my close friends were Ellen and howard 00:48:02.739 --> 00:48:10.206 Thompson, you know, howard Thompson well and I wrote a column in the state 00:48:10.239 --> 00:48:14.077 press and then later when we went to N. A. U. Together in the V. 12 00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:18.586 program, we wrote a column there and it was a column of just general 00:48:18.619 --> 00:48:22.236 complaints about everything that went on. And we were joe college, you 00:48:22.269 --> 00:48:25.666 know, and we didn't understand military courtesy and all that sort of 00:48:25.699 --> 00:48:30.637 thing. And our column mainly was just to ridicule everyone that we could. 00:48:30.670 --> 00:48:37.356 So we started making fun of all kinds of things. And and I remember 11 00:48:37.389 --> 00:48:41.666 column that we wrote, there was a girl who complained that the fellows 00:48:41.699 --> 00:48:47.086 were looking across the hall into her window, you know, and that she was 00:48:47.119 --> 00:48:52.256 greatly uh put out by that. And and I can remember Howard was the 00:48:52.289 --> 00:48:57.146 principal author of this uh Lady Godiva column that we wrote back and said 00:48:57.179 --> 00:49:03.347 , uh people who live in glass houses shouldn't and uh the light. But 00:49:03.380 --> 00:49:07.287 Howard Howard and I finally were called on the carpet because we had 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:11.477 written some things about, well, you know, how things are in military life 00:49:11.510 --> 00:49:15.986 , this hurry up and wait sort of syndrome and all the kinds of 00:49:16.019 --> 00:49:20.256 efficiencies. You know, the whole idea of snafu, you know, situation 00:49:20.289 --> 00:49:24.467 normal, everything fouled up. So so we we played on that a lot in the 00:49:24.500 --> 00:49:29.006 column. And the commanding officer invited us in his office one day, the 00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:32.497 boy, we stood at attention, you know, and he told us, you know, your 00:49:32.530 --> 00:49:37.307 college days are over boys, we do things a little differently here. And 00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:42.756 looking back now, I realize that he said something in effect us do do I 00:49:42.789 --> 00:49:48.077 have to really demonstrate to you how forceful I can be to get this point 00:49:48.110 --> 00:49:53.436 through to you. We said no sir. We stood there and he told us to shape up 00:49:53.469 --> 00:49:58.407 no more of that. And I can remember howard and I left convinced that was, 00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:03.106 there wasn't gonna be any more of that. So Howard was a very good friend. 00:50:03.139 --> 00:50:09.077 And, and as I told you, uh, also Elden was one of my close friends. There 00:50:09.110 --> 00:50:13.956 were a number of others you had mentioned to me earlier Roy about the 00:50:13.989 --> 00:50:17.606 alcohol. 00:50:17.639 --> 00:50:21.327 Yes, 00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:26.666 yes. Uh Bill Ward and I wrote that column, It was called as we see it and 00:50:26.699 --> 00:50:31.367 we just wrote a column about things happening on campus. And Bill Ward, uh 00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:38.186 , who was uh, one year ahead of me in school, he was the principal author 00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:44.276 of that, that particular column. But it was, it started out with a 00:50:44.309 --> 00:50:47.427 discussion of 00:50:47.460 --> 00:50:52.407 as though it were a person, you know, that, so and so got grease on me 00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:58.807 while fixing a flat tire. Uh, someone else, Don Ellis got lips stick on my 00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:03.416 slave when he was out dancing at riverside and someone else spilled a 00:51:03.449 --> 00:51:08.836 drink on me and it went on and on. And finally at the end it said, who am 00:51:08.869 --> 00:51:15.617 I? I'm alcohols white coat. And it was kind of the personification of the 00:51:15.650 --> 00:51:19.916 depression years and the fact that everyone shared everything, you know? 00:51:19.949 --> 00:51:25.486 And there was in fact a white coat in the alcohol that got passed around 00:51:25.519 --> 00:51:31.546 from one uh dance to another, you know? And uh so I just thought that was 00:51:31.579 --> 00:51:35.577 such a great thing. I didn't bring the column with me. It reads a lot 00:51:35.610 --> 00:51:39.927 better than I explained it. 00:51:39.960 --> 00:51:43.876 Are there anything if you think back over all of your years at A. S. U. 00:51:43.909 --> 00:51:48.497 Are there any particular accomplishments that stand out that what gives 00:51:48.530 --> 00:51:56.530 you the most satisfaction or your proudest of? Oh 00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:04.666 that's a very hard question. I don't know if I can single out a single 00:52:04.699 --> 00:52:11.407 thing. I guess I was proudest of my years of leadership there at the pain 00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:16.267 training school, it was a small school and it was very avant garde. You 00:52:16.300 --> 00:52:21.517 know, we're trying to do everything differently. And uh we had a policy 00:52:21.550 --> 00:52:26.847 that uh the things that we felt strongest about, we had an obligation to 00:52:26.880 --> 00:52:30.986 state the principles as hypotheses, you know, and gather evidence to test 00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:37.606 them. And I might just give you one example. We felt that that grades were 00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:43.606 not necessary to motivate kids A. Bs and CS. Can you imagine anything as 00:52:43.639 --> 00:52:47.836 outlandish is that? And so we operated the school on the basis of just 00:52:47.869 --> 00:52:52.117 having parent teacher conferences. And we said that anytime you have 00:52:52.150 --> 00:52:55.947 grades you try to distill everything you want to report about A kid's 00:52:55.980 --> 00:53:01.577 success in reading 2 1 of a few symbols you know ACC or so forth. You can 00:53:01.610 --> 00:53:07.026 communicate so much more uh Say in math with samples of the child's work. 00:53:07.059 --> 00:53:11.177 You sit down with a parent and you talk with them and you talk about 00:53:11.210 --> 00:53:15.447 what's reason, a reasonable expectation for this child. This child is in 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:19.456 5th grade, we expect 6th grade work of this child for these reasons, you 00:53:19.489 --> 00:53:25.967 know? And so we set up an arrangement where we split every class into 00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:33.376 beginning. As I recall. It was in the fifth grade. Uh we had uh 14 boys 00:53:33.409 --> 00:53:37.407 and 14 girls in each class. You know we had a long waiting list. So we set 00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:42.947 the the size of the class. So we took seven boys and seven girls matched 00:53:42.980 --> 00:53:47.736 by I. Q. We gave I. Q. Tests in those days and previous achievement. Then 00:53:47.769 --> 00:53:52.617 we gave half of the group report cards. The others never saw a report card 00:53:52.650 --> 00:53:56.586 until you know through the rest of their school year. But there were 00:53:56.619 --> 00:54:01.006 conferences for all of them. And then we had the standardized test scores 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:05.577 that we gave each year. And the interesting thing was we found that there 00:54:05.610 --> 00:54:10.146 really was no advantage. The ones that had the that that worked for the 00:54:10.179 --> 00:54:14.977 grades didn't score any better on the achievement tests at the end of that 00:54:15.010 --> 00:54:20.157 experience than the ones who had a parent teacher conferences. So there 00:54:20.190 --> 00:54:23.427 were just a variety of little things like that that we did that were kind 00:54:23.460 --> 00:54:28.157 of pioneering and different. I wouldn't argue that anyone could do what we 00:54:28.190 --> 00:54:31.936 did at that little school. One of the things that was a problem at the 00:54:31.969 --> 00:54:37.267 school was, as I said, we had a waiting list who puts their child on a 00:54:37.300 --> 00:54:41.026 long waiting list where you have to get the child on the waiting list at 00:54:41.059 --> 00:54:45.166 birth if you want to get them in school, it's very sophisticated people 00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:50.247 who put a high premium on education. So we didn't have a cross section of 00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:54.506 Children that we wanted and I don't want to get into a long discussion of 00:54:54.539 --> 00:55:01.776 , of how we, what we did later as a result of that. But uh, for that 00:55:01.809 --> 00:55:06.066 reason we probably had a special group of highly interested parents, but I 00:55:06.099 --> 00:55:09.756 think what we proved to the world was if your, if your parents of the 00:55:09.789 --> 00:55:13.597 Children are really interested in education and if they'll come down, come 00:55:13.630 --> 00:55:17.807 in about three times a year and sit down and face to face relationship 00:55:17.840 --> 00:55:22.017 with the teacher and just talk specifically about what that child is 00:55:22.050 --> 00:55:27.606 accomplishing a report card adds nothing to the process, 00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:32.407 interesting, interesting. Um 00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:37.157 really do you have advice that you give to young people today when they're 00:55:37.190 --> 00:55:40.447 thinking about choosing colleges and choosing careers? What kind of advice 00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:48.480 do you give? No, I don't try to give advice. I, I think very strongly that 00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:55.336 uh, individual differences are so great with my own son, I didn't tell him 00:55:55.369 --> 00:55:58.416 education is the greatest thing in the world you should come into 00:55:58.449 --> 00:56:03.387 education. He had to find that out for himself. And at first he was 00:56:03.420 --> 00:56:08.276 interested in biology and things like that. He ended up as a teacher, but 00:56:08.309 --> 00:56:12.407 he did not because I encouraged him to do it and he's now chair of the 00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:17.796 science department at Corona del Sol high school here here in phoenix. But 00:56:17.829 --> 00:56:25.506 people are so different. And so I of course think education is, you know, 00:56:25.539 --> 00:56:29.847 you can't have a better career in education if it's a good fit for you. 00:56:29.880 --> 00:56:34.637 There's nothing that's more rewarding because you look back later, later 00:56:34.670 --> 00:56:38.657 on a career and you have such a sense of accomplishment that you may not 00:56:38.690 --> 00:56:44.546 get in most of the other kinds of of work. So, so I can certainly 00:56:44.579 --> 00:56:50.517 recommend education, but I can also realize it doesn't fit everybody. What 00:56:50.550 --> 00:56:56.236 do you see as the legacy that you leave? Oh, I don't know. You'll have to 00:56:56.269 --> 00:57:00.376 ask other people that question. I don't know that I've left any particular 00:57:00.409 --> 00:57:04.396 legacy. 00:57:04.429 --> 00:57:07.467 One thing that you mentioned sort of in passing, I don't know, I don't 00:57:07.500 --> 00:57:13.767 think even the camera was talking about summers in, in Arizona. Mm hmm. Oh 00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:21.800 yes. You know my, in the summertime when my father was still alive. Um, 00:57:21.829 --> 00:57:26.236 homes weren't, uh, cooled properly. You know, we didn't even have 00:57:26.269 --> 00:57:32.026 evaporative coolers at first and so there was a screen porch on every home. 00:57:32.059 --> 00:57:36.157 Oh. Incidentally when I was at East hall two, there wasn't refrigeration 00:57:36.190 --> 00:57:41.986 or cooling in that there was a screen porch dormitory up on the west side 00:57:42.019 --> 00:57:46.126 of the building. And everyone moved their beds into that dormitory in hot 00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:50.256 weather that that part of the dormitory, they were just lined up along 00:57:50.289 --> 00:57:56.666 that screen porch. And so that that was a common way in uh Arizona, you 00:57:56.699 --> 00:58:01.517 know, to cool off in the summertime, families went to Prescott and our 00:58:01.550 --> 00:58:08.186 family went to Oak Creek and I mean Wolf Creek which was very close to uh 00:58:08.219 --> 00:58:13.236 groom creek, which was in that that area by by Prescott we would go up 00:58:13.269 --> 00:58:16.936 there, we had a number of tents. And the first thing we did was we 00:58:16.969 --> 00:58:21.086 gathered pine needles and the tent where the three boys slept, we gathered 00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:24.796 pine needles and stacked them about two ft high in the bottom of the tent 00:58:24.829 --> 00:58:29.086 , put a tarp over and that was our bed. You know, we we slept there. There 00:58:29.119 --> 00:58:33.256 was another tent that my sister slept in and another one uh where my 00:58:33.289 --> 00:58:37.436 parents slept. And then there was a tarp that we where we cooked and that 00:58:37.469 --> 00:58:41.407 sort of thing. And we lived there in the summertime. My poor father went 00:58:41.440 --> 00:58:45.907 down to work every weekend. I mean every week and then on weekends he 00:58:45.940 --> 00:58:49.856 would drive up to be the family and then he would go back back to work in 00:58:49.889 --> 00:58:56.117 the heat and that was a very common practice. Lots lots of people escaped 00:58:56.150 --> 00:59:00.376 to the north in the summertime. And because you didn't have refrigeration 00:59:00.409 --> 00:59:05.637 or cooling so you spend months up there. Yes. The only way to get cool 00:59:05.670 --> 00:59:10.427 when I was a kid was to go to the Fox theater or the Orpheum and they were 00:59:10.460 --> 00:59:15.137 refrigerated. You know, they were cool. What about on campus when you 00:59:15.170 --> 00:59:18.787 first came to campus, the buildings where you had classes and things? You 00:59:18.820 --> 00:59:23.486 mentioned the dorms didn't know they didn't have cooling. 00:59:23.519 --> 00:59:29.657 Was that a problem? Oh, I don't, you know, I don't really think it uh you 00:59:29.690 --> 00:59:33.146 know, school didn't start until about September one. We may have had a 00:59:33.179 --> 00:59:40.887 disagreeable couple of weeks and then later uh you know in, let's see 00:59:40.920 --> 00:59:46.787 school I think typically was out in ah 00:59:46.820 --> 00:59:53.267 june may I think maybe the end of May. So we had a little hot weather but 00:59:53.300 --> 00:59:56.787 not too much. 00:59:56.820 --> 01:00:02.117 Um Well You saw the campus progress and grow a lot over the years. And you 01:00:02.150 --> 01:00:06.356 talked about Yes. School that you took over. When did they build the 01:00:06.389 --> 01:00:13.936 farmers? Okay. Farmer building. They started building that in 1960. I have 01:00:13.969 --> 01:00:19.376 some pictures of that, which I'll show you. Dean McGrath came to survey 01:00:19.409 --> 01:00:23.287 that land. You know, I told you they bought the old 10th street school and 01:00:23.320 --> 01:00:27.997 I have a picture of Dean McGrath standing there surveying that lot and 01:00:28.030 --> 01:00:33.077 they're beginning to erect farmer building there. 01:00:33.110 --> 01:00:39.186 That was in 1960 and uh I don't know that I have the dates when all the 01:00:39.219 --> 01:00:45.077 other buildings were built there. Ah 01:00:45.110 --> 01:00:52.776 Okay. Here's the old bulldog yell, growl it out girl 01:00:52.809 --> 01:00:59.177 girl, 01:00:59.210 --> 01:01:02.876 full logs. 01:01:02.909 --> 01:01:08.977 Our favorite chant when we played the university was one to beat the you 01:01:09.010 --> 01:01:14.006 which sort of fed into their plan because they were the university and 01:01:14.039 --> 01:01:22.039 their derisive response was 123 beat Tempe, the small town school 01:01:22.809 --> 01:01:28.177 A. S. You waited so long for a victory over the University of Arizona when 01:01:28.210 --> 01:01:31.307 we had our better teams under dixie Howell. They wouldn't play us. They 01:01:31.340 --> 01:01:36.376 boycotted us at that time, We came back after the war and brought a ragtag 01:01:36.409 --> 01:01:42.677 bunch of returning veterans down there and were defeated 67 to nothing 01:01:42.710 --> 01:01:49.017 humiliating event. Finally we beat them decisively. And here are the 01:01:49.050 --> 01:01:54.617 headlines that appeared in the Arizona Republic. So even though we had 01:01:54.650 --> 01:01:59.256 defeated them, they were still triumphant in their primary effort. And 01:01:59.289 --> 01:02:05.776 that was to remind everyone that Tempe was a small school A. S. T. C. In 01:02:05.809 --> 01:02:11.166 those days or I guess it was a. S. C. At that time was a small town school. 01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:16.367 Tempe beats Arizona. 01:02:16.400 --> 01:02:22.467 Well in those days uh freshman had their own teams and uh it was a great 01:02:22.500 --> 01:02:28.316 aspiration of everyone to get their numerals and in 1940 of course that 01:02:28.349 --> 01:02:34.686 was 40 for the year we were to graduate and I was a marginal athlete in 01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:41.477 track, participated in on the mile relay team, pole vault, Broad jump and 01:02:41.510 --> 01:02:47.896 finally won enough 2nd and 3rd places to to earn that these numerals. I 01:02:47.929 --> 01:02:53.046 was very proud of them And that was supposed to be the year you graduate. 01:02:53.079 --> 01:02:57.936 Yes. And unfortunately I didn't graduate till 47. I gave three years to 01:02:57.969 --> 01:03:04.066 the Marine Corps during World war two then came back and graduated. 01:03:04.099 --> 01:03:10.256 Okay, I got this sign because I was very active as a part of the loyal 01:03:10.289 --> 01:03:15.367 alumni were out there trying to convince everyone on earth that a s you 01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:20.296 should be named a issue that we really were a university in fact, and we 01:03:20.329 --> 01:03:25.807 had to be a university by name and it was a great triumph I think 01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:30.376 primarily for the school teachers of the state because we were very active 01:03:30.409 --> 01:03:34.787 in every community and as I said, I was principal of Madison number one at 01:03:34.820 --> 01:03:38.936 that time and I was telling everyone that would listen that they had to 01:03:38.969 --> 01:03:43.756 get out and vote and it went to the voters, it went to the voters and it 01:03:43.789 --> 01:03:49.847 was an overwhelming defeat. In fact, the only county that it didn't carry 01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:57.537 was Pima County and I think that it was an overwhelming defeat over 01:03:57.570 --> 01:04:04.006 overwhelming victory. I keep thinking of defeating the U. F. A. Okay, let 01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:10.736 me let me restate that it was an overwhelming victory and the only county 01:04:10.769 --> 01:04:18.769 that voted against it was Pima County. And what year was that? That was 19 01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:24.166 I. Of 58 01:04:24.199 --> 01:04:29.159 Because I came the next year in 59 to the university.