WEBVTT 00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:06.896 three and I'm pam Stevenson. We're doing an interview here at issue for 00:00:06.929 --> 00:00:12.006 the living history video project, the Arizona State University retirees 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:17.456 association. And I'd like to let you introduce yourself. Do you want to 00:00:17.489 --> 00:00:22.907 give me your name and tell me what you were doing at HQ when you retired? 00:00:22.940 --> 00:00:30.940 Okay. I'm, my name is Troy crowder. I retired in 00:00:31.140 --> 00:00:33.506 1986 00:00:33.539 --> 00:00:38.107 and at that time I was special assistant to the president 00:00:38.140 --> 00:00:41.626 and then we'll go back and talk about a little more background. Can you 00:00:41.659 --> 00:00:45.796 tell me when you were born and where you were born and where you? Yes, I 00:00:45.829 --> 00:00:53.829 can. I was born in 1920 for in South Dakota. Um, I grew up in, therefore 00:00:54.640 --> 00:01:01.457 in the depression years in post depression years. Um, 00:01:01.490 --> 00:01:09.490 my family, I guess I would describe my family, not as poor, but um, middle 00:01:09.569 --> 00:01:15.507 class working people. Um, I had 00:01:15.540 --> 00:01:19.727 attended public schools. There was fortunate to have good teachers, really 00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:24.257 good teachers. I grew up in Sioux Falls, which is the largest city there. 00:01:24.290 --> 00:01:31.096 So the educational system was better than a lot of other spots in the 00:01:31.129 --> 00:01:35.807 state. Um, 00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:41.986 after high school, well I should go back a minute all through high school 00:01:42.019 --> 00:01:48.406 . I give this, I mentioned the depression because I always had to work 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:54.057 when I was in high school. I worked weekends, uh, sacking groceries and 00:01:54.090 --> 00:01:57.897 selling shoes and there are a lot of, there aren't many things I haven't 00:01:57.930 --> 00:02:05.930 tried and done during that period, but when I completed high school, I 00:02:06.739 --> 00:02:11.207 work, I took a job in a tire shop 00:02:11.240 --> 00:02:17.356 full time in order to pay for my expenses at the local college, which is 00:02:17.389 --> 00:02:21.307 Augustana College 00:02:21.340 --> 00:02:25.557 because I worked full time, I had to take night classes and that's what I 00:02:25.590 --> 00:02:33.590 did. Um, but the first, during that first semester, um, one day, a big, 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:39.536 big long trailer pulled up on campus and it said something like aviation 00:02:39.569 --> 00:02:45.696 cadets. Oh boy, that sounds good. So anyway, anyway, I enlisted in the 00:02:45.729 --> 00:02:52.316 army Air Corps cadets and in february of that year, I went into the 00:02:52.349 --> 00:02:59.307 service and World War II. In 1943, 00:02:59.340 --> 00:03:02.807 I went through 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:09.647 pilot training all of it in Arizona, interestingly enough and graduated 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:16.756 from Williams field and Chandler outside Chandler as a fighter pilot. I 00:03:16.789 --> 00:03:22.096 avoided all the, at that time, they almost had enough pilots that they 00:03:22.129 --> 00:03:27.946 decided. And so there was a, mm, they took, they found many reasons to 00:03:27.979 --> 00:03:34.226 watch people out of the program, but I survived fortunately and I flew P 00:03:34.259 --> 00:03:40.807 30 eight's and P 40 seven's survived the war. Get out. 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:46.307 I went back to South Dakota, met my wife, I married my wife 00:03:46.340 --> 00:03:51.487 and went back to school. 00:03:51.520 --> 00:03:58.036 one of the strange things I did in a way, In one sense, I'm, I'm proud of 00:03:58.069 --> 00:04:04.467 it, but it's really not the way to do it. Um, when I went back, I went 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:11.207 back to the University of South Dakota and 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:18.147 took what credits I could for army service and the commission that I'd 00:04:18.180 --> 00:04:23.717 earned. And then I picked up the, the one semester from Augustana College 00:04:23.750 --> 00:04:29.687 , which was a little shaky at best because 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:34.697 I missed some of those night classes in order to go out on dates. So my, 00:04:34.730 --> 00:04:41.366 my academic record wasn't great. Um I remember 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:46.137 this is probably particularly through in algebra and german, but when I 00:04:46.170 --> 00:04:49.056 went back to the University of South Dakota, I picked up the credits for 00:04:49.089 --> 00:04:53.277 that semester. So then I started right in on second semester, german 00:04:53.310 --> 00:04:56.606 second semester algebra. 00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:01.116 Well, I don't know, it was, it wasn't a very good basis for what I did for 00:05:01.149 --> 00:05:03.627 what I undertook 00:05:03.660 --> 00:05:07.056 just a minute with World War Two. Then once you were a pilot, where did 00:05:07.089 --> 00:05:12.806 you serve? Oh, I was in the pacific theater. 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:20.687 Um in too late really we became a a, they formed a fighter group, a new 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:28.397 fighter group which was made up of people who been in combat in europe as 00:05:28.430 --> 00:05:34.496 well as we new trainees. So each, you'll have to pardon, this is one of 00:05:34.529 --> 00:05:39.796 the things pilots do that, you know these formations, but the every 00:05:39.829 --> 00:05:44.627 trainee was flying on the wing of someone who had been in combat and we 00:05:44.660 --> 00:05:49.777 were with people who were decorated aces. So it was a neat idea and a very 00:05:49.810 --> 00:05:57.536 , therefore the morale was quite high and we, the plan was, we were to be 00:05:57.569 --> 00:06:01.406 the first escort group over Japan 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:08.027 for some reason and there are politics in the military as well as every 00:06:08.060 --> 00:06:15.267 place else. We got stranded on a while. So we we flew there, I flew there 00:06:15.300 --> 00:06:19.416 for a year and a half. We trained other people who are going through to 00:06:19.449 --> 00:06:24.467 combat. They fly with us for a while and go to combat. So I had a very 00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:31.967 soft military life. I'd fly one day I spend the rest of the time on the 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:37.286 beach and you know it was just I owned the car, it was terrible. I mean 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:44.556 compared to what most military experiences are, I almost felt guilty but I 00:06:44.589 --> 00:06:52.589 didn't. Did you ever actually see real combat? No, no by the time, 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:58.077 by the time we got to Oahu because they didn't send us on, we didn't get 00:06:58.110 --> 00:07:06.110 near combat. We lost people in dumb accidents but no combat. But 00:07:08.639 --> 00:07:13.007 back to the University of South Dakota I went 00:07:13.040 --> 00:07:18.416 because and like a lot of other G. I. S we lost you know we lost three 00:07:18.449 --> 00:07:25.647 plus years out of our lives in terms of time we've gained some other 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:32.887 things, it's like the G. I. Bill but I went I went to school, I took 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.606 overloads 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:40.637 and went year round, they had two summer sessions so I earned my degree in 00:07:40.670 --> 00:07:45.947 two years. What was your major, it was journalism and I had a minor in 00:07:45.980 --> 00:07:48.207 education 00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:56.240 and um Betsy helped, she worked, she put me through school helped put me 00:07:56.350 --> 00:08:01.496 through the G. I. Bill wasn't really generous 00:08:01.529 --> 00:08:08.356 then I went on to teach in high school. 1st I looked for a job, um, in 00:08:08.389 --> 00:08:14.507 journalism reporting. The major paper in south Dakota is the Argus leader. 00:08:14.540 --> 00:08:19.406 Unfortunately there were no openings at that time. So I fell back on my 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:25.106 minor and Went out and taught in high school for two years 00:08:25.139 --> 00:08:27.806 and decided 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:34.476 while it was in many respects enjoyable, it really wasn't what I wanted to 00:08:34.509 --> 00:08:38.197 do with the rest of my life. So I decided I had to get back into graduate 00:08:38.230 --> 00:08:40.307 school 00:08:40.340 --> 00:08:45.106 and I went to the University of Iowa 00:08:45.139 --> 00:08:49.907 and I took, I was there under an internship 00:08:49.940 --> 00:08:54.907 that required halftime 00:08:54.940 --> 00:08:59.266 writing for the university 00:08:59.299 --> 00:09:05.187 and then I took, I majored in journalism in their, what they call their 00:09:05.220 --> 00:09:08.807 public relations sequence. 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:12.307 I finished school, 00:09:12.340 --> 00:09:16.726 completed my thesis, became a father 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:21.827 only one year and I was the only one of the interns that did it. I don't, 00:09:21.860 --> 00:09:24.207 I don't, 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:29.096 and I, I need to be careful. I'm not boastful about that. I don't mean to 00:09:29.129 --> 00:09:35.396 be boastful about it. But what I'm trying to say is I really worked and um 00:09:35.429 --> 00:09:41.486 , but it was, it was important that I do it and do it that way. There's a 00:09:41.519 --> 00:09:44.907 year for you. 00:09:44.940 --> 00:09:51.006 Well, let's see. Our son was born in 19 in 19. I graduated 1952. 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:55.207 Our son was born in the university hospital, 00:09:55.240 --> 00:10:03.240 but then I went into, um, college work. My career plans at that point 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:11.016 centered around working at the college level in the general area, what 00:10:11.049 --> 00:10:14.866 they call then university relations 00:10:14.899 --> 00:10:22.899 and that's what I did in states like Kansas, michigan colorado Montana. I 00:10:23.690 --> 00:10:28.177 moved a lot. We moved a lot. I guess so. And it wasn't only one school in 00:10:28.210 --> 00:10:31.736 some of those states. Why don't you tell me what university relations 00:10:31.769 --> 00:10:36.047 consisted of? What did you actually do? Well, in the earliest days it had 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:42.606 to do, it was primarily related to relationships with the press, 00:10:42.639 --> 00:10:48.986 but it gradually changed to include um, relationships with all the 00:10:49.019 --> 00:10:55.407 university public or the, all the colleges, publics, alumni development, 00:10:55.440 --> 00:11:01.276 um, Legislative relations publications, news Bureau, all that kind of 00:11:01.309 --> 00:11:08.297 thing. Why did you move around so much? I laughingly used to tell people I 00:11:08.330 --> 00:11:12.797 couldn't hold a job and I decided I shouldn't say that because that wasn't 00:11:12.830 --> 00:11:18.476 the case. Um, in those days, 00:11:18.509 --> 00:11:24.236 the way to advance was to move. If I were to have stayed at, say, the 00:11:24.269 --> 00:11:28.506 first school I worked at was Forte's Kansas state, 00:11:28.539 --> 00:11:35.626 my, my salary would have inched up, but very gradually in order to really 00:11:35.659 --> 00:11:41.667 make a jump, you had to keep an eye on the openings in the field around 00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:45.886 the country, you go to the professional meetings and oh, they need 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:53.919 somebody that, uh, ah Montana or wherever. And if they paid, if the job 00:11:54.350 --> 00:11:58.827 looked attractive and the salary was in a real advancement, I went after 00:11:58.860 --> 00:12:06.860 it and that's why I moved so much. But it was, it has, it had its 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:12.866 advantages. It's a, the system shouldn't work that way, but it did then 00:12:12.899 --> 00:12:18.907 it's probably less likely to happen that way. Now 00:12:18.940 --> 00:12:22.366 there were advantages. But the disadvantage is, is you don't realize the 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:28.207 costs of moving that often. You know, you buy a house three years later, 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:33.596 you're trying to sell it and you're, and you can't fool around too long 00:12:33.629 --> 00:12:38.677 before you do. And the moving costs, they never used to pay moving costs 00:12:38.710 --> 00:12:43.136 that, you know, that was yours. That's a long answer to your question. So 00:12:43.169 --> 00:12:46.327 how did you end up coming to Arizona? 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:49.407 I came in 1970, 00:12:49.440 --> 00:12:55.106 I was invited here by Harry New Bern who was acting President. 00:12:55.139 --> 00:13:02.606 He had been brought here as dean of the College of Education and then act 00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:10.356 asked to act as acting president. I had worked for him at two other places. 00:13:10.389 --> 00:13:16.386 I worked five years for him at the educational TV and radio center in ANn 00:13:16.419 --> 00:13:22.226 Arbor, which was a ford foundation supported and was, which was the 00:13:22.259 --> 00:13:27.337 beginning of educational television and that was exciting. But then they 00:13:27.370 --> 00:13:31.886 decided to move it to new york and a lot of us didn't want to go to new 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:39.919 york new york city. So he went, oh, he went on some overseas consulting 00:13:42.090 --> 00:13:49.106 thing and I went to the Colorado School of Mines. 00:13:49.139 --> 00:13:53.717 Um, I later worked for him. 00:13:53.750 --> 00:13:57.276 Well, I could follow right from there because while I was at the Colorado 00:13:57.309 --> 00:14:02.256 School of Mines, he contacted me from the University of Montana where he 00:14:02.289 --> 00:14:07.807 had become president, asked me to come there 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:13.736 and I did. So I had worked for him very closely On two other occasions. So 00:14:13.769 --> 00:14:18.807 we knew another one, another quite well and 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.717 um very close personally. 00:14:22.750 --> 00:14:27.667 And in those days that was before affirmative action and all the things 00:14:27.700 --> 00:14:33.717 kicked in and required a series of interviews. You know, it was, it was in 00:14:33.750 --> 00:14:39.106 the good uh, good old boy days, you know, somebody who wanted to hire, you 00:14:39.139 --> 00:14:43.697 hired them and that's how it happened. So what was your first job at a 00:14:43.730 --> 00:14:48.337 issue? My title was assistant to President and Director University 00:14:48.370 --> 00:14:54.106 relations And at Montana, 00:14:54.139 --> 00:15:01.467 I had, we had pull together the functions that we're kind of working 00:15:01.500 --> 00:15:07.896 independently as was the case here, the News Bureau and Development and 00:15:07.929 --> 00:15:14.307 Legislative relations and publications and alumni. 00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:19.657 And we, we brought those together in the sense that I was there to help 00:15:19.690 --> 00:15:26.307 try to make it more effective than better coordinated. 00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:31.006 What did you think of Arizona? And and a s you when you first came here? 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:37.167 Well, I had fortunately been to Arizona in the military training and loved 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:45.200 it. I had not, I knew little about Arizona State University. And um at the 00:15:45.220 --> 00:15:51.236 time I was at school called Oakland University in Michigan, which is a 00:15:51.269 --> 00:15:57.807 branch of Michigan state just north of located north of Detroit 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:03.106 and I had been there six years, which is quite an accomplishment for me, 00:16:03.139 --> 00:16:07.197 But harry newborn called and said, I might have something you're 00:16:07.230 --> 00:16:15.136 interested in. And I thought he can't, I just don't think he can come up 00:16:15.169 --> 00:16:18.947 with a job that I like better than the one I've got. But I owe it to him 00:16:18.980 --> 00:16:24.506 to come out and talk to him. I didn't actually come out. We met somewhere 00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:32.539 in between uh, ST louis or somewhere talked about it, but 00:16:33.940 --> 00:16:39.537 I had not seen Arizona State University. I knew it was large and I growing 00:16:39.570 --> 00:16:44.657 and when I came, I was, that was all affirmed it was large and it was 00:16:44.690 --> 00:16:49.307 growing. So you took the job without seeing the campus. 00:16:49.340 --> 00:16:51.807 That's correct. 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:58.467 one thing I need to say in my defense, I, I agreed to take it only if I 00:16:58.500 --> 00:17:04.506 had a faculty appointment to go with it 00:17:04.539 --> 00:17:09.107 because Harry knew Burns an acting president and at that time was for only 00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:13.887 one year he was asking to in the second year, but I needed some kind of 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:19.407 insurance that um, if a new president came in and said, Hey, I don't want 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:24.266 that guy as my assistant over director of university relations that I've 00:17:24.299 --> 00:17:28.937 got a job that I can work at until I either decide, hey, this is what I 00:17:28.970 --> 00:17:35.107 want to do the rest of my life or by the time to look elsewhere. 00:17:35.140 --> 00:17:39.457 So I did, yes, I did come without having seen it. My wife had never been 00:17:39.490 --> 00:17:46.447 to Arizona and we came down in august to look at housing and in those days 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:51.756 they roll up those outside steps to playing. You know if you weren't you 00:17:51.789 --> 00:17:57.457 didn't go into some air conditioned tunnel an ark, she couldn't get over 00:17:57.490 --> 00:18:02.157 the heat. And I convinced her it was a lot of it was the heat from the 00:18:02.190 --> 00:18:08.467 engines on the airplane. Of course it wasn't, it wasn't Arizona. But she 00:18:08.500 --> 00:18:12.607 she grew because she didn't like the heat. I mean it's a terrible, 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:20.597 terrible time to move to Arizona but it worked out she loves it now An 00:18:20.630 --> 00:18:24.306 incident and we've been married 50 00:18:24.339 --> 00:18:26.907 seven years 00:18:26.940 --> 00:18:30.607 which I'm also proud of? 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:36.579 Yeah. Coming to Arizona in august yes, I could have ended it right there. 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:39.440 Well, another test is, I don't know if you've ever heard of this or tried 00:18:41.769 --> 00:18:48.056 it is putting wallpaper horizontally in the bathroom. No, I haven't tried 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:53.207 that. That's a real test of marriage. Actually hanging wallpaper with it 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:57.066 because you're not supposed to ever do that, you know that the book says 00:18:57.099 --> 00:19:00.986 never hang wallpaper with your spouse, is that right? Oh yeah. Alright. 00:19:01.019 --> 00:19:06.306 And then whether it's this way or this or the wrong way. Huh? I believe it. 00:19:06.339 --> 00:19:10.026 So what did you think of as you when you first got here? What was your 00:19:10.059 --> 00:19:18.059 first impression? Well I was I was impressed in many ways. Um 00:19:18.940 --> 00:19:23.097 and size had a lot to do with it because I have not worked at a large 00:19:23.130 --> 00:19:25.786 institution. 00:19:25.819 --> 00:19:31.207 I was impressed. You could soon, well, you didn't have to be here. I 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:35.207 didn't have to be here too and no one would have to be here too long to 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:40.296 begin to know the history of the place and to see that indeed it was young 00:19:40.329 --> 00:19:44.006 as a university scrambling 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:52.039 for adequate support and scrambling to cope with the growing enrollment. 00:19:52.119 --> 00:20:00.119 It was located in a populous area in a and I'm not and wealthy state. And 00:20:00.539 --> 00:20:06.576 those problems then become more severe reminded today's story in the paper 00:20:06.609 --> 00:20:12.296 , President Croes says the budget has to be increased $60 million. Well, 00:20:12.329 --> 00:20:17.847 you know, that's not gonna happen. I'd be delighted if it did, but it will 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:22.806 not in Arizona. Arizona doesn't have that kind of money. Especially now. 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.387 What were the issues in 1970 when you came, what were you dealing with as 00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:31.107 university relations? 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:34.806 A lot of it had to do with 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:40.476 legislative relations. So I soon got to know the people downtown and got 00:20:40.509 --> 00:20:48.509 to know about some of the real problems of the state. And 00:20:49.180 --> 00:20:54.937 I realized right away. Well, no, I want to say that not all I shouldn't 00:20:54.970 --> 00:21:01.506 put it this way. Not all legislators are well qualified to do that job. 00:21:01.539 --> 00:21:04.607 That's very tactful 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:11.486 and there and we don't pay. We don't offer them kind of salary that, you 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:17.546 know, makes it a really attractive job. So we're to blame the public to 00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:19.707 citizens. 00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:23.707 So can you have any examples of dealing with any particular ones that 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:28.707 you'd like to talk about? 00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:32.506 Well, usually, 00:21:32.539 --> 00:21:38.506 well, I have a couple examples, john swallow was the second president that 00:21:38.539 --> 00:21:44.597 I worked for. He succeeded Harry Newburgh and annually we'd have to 00:21:44.630 --> 00:21:52.006 prepare a budget presentation with big flip charts, june remembers. And 00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:56.707 the president had, with the help of whoever he might turn to had really 00:21:56.740 --> 00:21:59.407 had to make the presentation. 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.526 John swallow had been um, the budget officer for the state of Kansas. He 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:10.556 was very good at that, but he got so wrapped up and getting ready for this. 00:22:10.589 --> 00:22:17.046 That on the drive down to the capitol, I remember I drove, oh no, I did 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:23.607 not drive Gilbert Katie who was the financial vice president was along. 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:29.016 And he kept saying, why don't you drive once you John Swallow was so 00:22:29.049 --> 00:22:34.576 uptight about this presentation. God, we were going 75 and 80 mph down to 00:22:34.609 --> 00:22:38.957 the state capital and we didn't need to go that fast. I mean, we weren't 00:22:38.990 --> 00:22:42.407 late, but 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:50.440 he, so we were, we were always appealing for financial help 00:22:52.240 --> 00:23:00.240 and we had to, I and others had to uh spend time calling upon various key 00:23:00.589 --> 00:23:05.707 people in the legislature people. 00:23:05.740 --> 00:23:12.006 Well, we certainly visit those who are friendly people like Tony west 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:14.407 alumni. 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:17.566 One of our problems was we didn't have that many alumni and the 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:20.306 legislature. 00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:22.506 Um, 00:23:22.539 --> 00:23:28.036 we also did not have that many alumni ever on the board. The board of 00:23:28.069 --> 00:23:31.006 regions. 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:36.707 Um, I'm getting a little ahead of myself because I want to save this is 00:23:36.740 --> 00:23:43.207 maybe bad memory. But so if you have another question, why don't you 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:46.937 finish the story about that budget presentation? Do you remember how much 00:23:46.970 --> 00:23:51.296 money, what was the budget? Oh you know, I don't remember, I'm terrible 00:23:51.329 --> 00:23:57.667 about numbers anymore. They don't I don't feel the need to recall them and 00:23:57.700 --> 00:24:03.306 I haven't read them for years and I've really cut myself off from that 00:24:03.339 --> 00:24:07.506 world. And so I can't answer your question. How did you want to do with 00:24:07.539 --> 00:24:13.407 that budget presentation? He did very well, but 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:18.526 and one of the one of the challenges he would make and nobody ever, no 00:24:18.559 --> 00:24:25.467 legislator ever challenged him. He said we are really running lean at A. S. 00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:31.076 U. He said there is not another public institution in this country that 00:24:31.109 --> 00:24:35.887 is getting more out of its dollar than A. S. U. Nobody ever questioned 00:24:35.920 --> 00:24:42.306 that and it was, it was pretty close to true. It may have been through, 00:24:42.339 --> 00:24:49.427 but nobody ever raised any question about it. And uh he, but he made the 00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:53.697 point. Well, 00:24:53.730 --> 00:25:01.607 did you generally get what you ask for? No, never, never. 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:07.006 And part of that is part of the process. You always, you always ask for 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:12.217 more than you know you're gonna get. You try to reflect your needs in the 00:25:12.250 --> 00:25:15.006 budget request, 00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:23.039 but you have to show aside okay, your realization that the state cannot 00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:26.066 afford it. 00:25:26.099 --> 00:25:29.887 Some states are in much better shape in that regard. The really good 00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:36.677 michigan new york and in earlier days California 00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:41.306 and the funds to really 00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:46.036 support their universities at the level and put them in the very top 00:25:46.069 --> 00:25:52.907 categories in every respect. But I grew up in ST south Dakota head 00:25:52.940 --> 00:25:55.707 five state schools 00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:00.796 Montana had about the same number. Neither of those states should ever 00:26:00.829 --> 00:26:06.107 have had five schools. They should have had two at the most and I guess 00:26:06.140 --> 00:26:11.766 you can't get by with one anymore. Nebraska almost does but still has 00:26:11.799 --> 00:26:17.746 other schools besides the university. So it was a S. U. Part of it was 00:26:17.779 --> 00:26:22.306 that you're competing with. Oh yes 00:26:22.339 --> 00:26:27.107 as the new university. 00:26:27.140 --> 00:26:31.707 We were 00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:36.107 we were really um 00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:42.897 fighting to gain equal treatment. We were not, we were almost the other 00:26:42.930 --> 00:26:47.867 kid on the block. They had the medical school and they had the other 00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:53.197 professional schools, they had them a long time. They had alumni who had 00:26:53.230 --> 00:26:57.947 been out in the world longer than than our professional school graduates. 00:26:57.980 --> 00:27:05.980 And they were better established it as a, as the university, they own the 00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:12.427 board of regions, which was, I'm just about saving that til later. But I 00:27:12.460 --> 00:27:15.806 can't hold it any longer. 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.006 That was one of the problems. 00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:22.867 The board was all, they were always very, 00:27:22.900 --> 00:27:28.536 there were good people on the board but they, their allegiance was more 00:27:28.569 --> 00:27:35.657 often than not you they and we were not able to correct that. I always, 00:27:35.690 --> 00:27:42.316 There was one time I thought someday and I even said this. I hope nobody 00:27:42.349 --> 00:27:48.256 ever remembers it because I was wrong. I said someday A. S. U. Is going to 00:27:48.289 --> 00:27:54.026 own the legislature and the and the board. God we're in the populist 00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:59.897 community, you know where all the people are. We need to elect a governor 00:27:59.930 --> 00:28:04.407 who is an alumnus of the university. The governor appoints the board 00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:06.486 members. 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:14.519 And I predicted that That would happen in 10 or 15 years. It has not And 00:28:14.769 --> 00:28:19.207 it's been 30 years. 00:28:19.240 --> 00:28:23.996 I remember back in 1970 I went to U. C. L. A. Is that a yes you have a 00:28:24.029 --> 00:28:27.566 real reputation as sort of a party school. People from California came 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:32.256 over here. I didn't want to study too hard. Was that? 00:28:32.289 --> 00:28:36.806 Some some truth to it. But 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:43.107 I don't I don't give a lot of credence to the basis on which those some 00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:48.046 magazines used to determine whether or not you're a party school. one of 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:53.387 the things that argues against that is the fact that most of our students 00:28:53.420 --> 00:28:58.726 were commuter students. Most of them worked of the commuter students. Many 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:03.796 of them worked full time. This was God for most students this was not a 00:29:03.829 --> 00:29:09.217 party situation. They were like much like I did fighting and clawing to 00:29:09.250 --> 00:29:16.256 get through school on their own. But I'm sure there was a little partying 00:29:16.289 --> 00:29:22.207 going on because indeed we did have students from other states and, and we 00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:28.427 had them, fairly large dorm situation and but we didn't deserve that 00:29:28.460 --> 00:29:32.806 recognition for that designation. 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:35.836 You said you had a couple other stories, you wanted to be sure. And tell 00:29:35.869 --> 00:29:42.806 us, you know, I didn't need these notes really. Um, 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:47.506 one of the things that 00:29:47.539 --> 00:29:51.506 I remember, um, 00:29:51.539 --> 00:29:56.697 most about her is she was the fact that I 00:29:56.730 --> 00:30:02.937 I had the opportunity to work with people like Gilbert, Katie, Jim 00:30:02.970 --> 00:30:05.766 Cressman 00:30:05.799 --> 00:30:09.736 a little bit about those people who was Gilbert, Gilbert Katie was the 00:30:09.769 --> 00:30:17.769 financial vice president. He was kind of a kind of a thorny character. But 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:24.506 um, really a good man, 00:30:24.539 --> 00:30:28.847 Jim Cressman, I don't know how to describe him. He was, he'd been here 00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:36.086 forever. A student here. Um, very much a party led the fight to become a 00:30:36.119 --> 00:30:40.107 university or was one of the leaders. And he was, in fact, I guess you 00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:44.806 could say he led the fight. 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:49.387 Well, he was called, I believe at that time director of university 00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:55.056 relations. So when I came I took away his title, but we got along fine. 00:30:55.089 --> 00:30:57.506 And 00:30:57.539 --> 00:31:05.539 um, other people like Dean smith and bob Ellison on joe spring Don dots 00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.006 George Morel 00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:14.986 Georgia was a student here was purchasing agent while I was here. He, he's 00:31:15.019 --> 00:31:22.506 , it's all the issue. Can you think of any particular stories thomas 00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:25.306 you've heard about thomas. 00:31:25.339 --> 00:31:29.806 Well, al thomas was 00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:34.707 gee, I don't know how long it had been at the university or when it came 00:31:34.740 --> 00:31:42.107 a long long time. What did he do? He was registrar 00:31:42.140 --> 00:31:44.806 and 00:31:44.839 --> 00:31:52.207 um 00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:59.306 maybe something else before that I don't I don't know. But we at one point 00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:07.339 in my no I don't claim any part in it and I disclaim any part in it, we 00:32:08.049 --> 00:32:15.046 moved him to out of the registrar's office and he became I think that the 00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:19.266 title we gave him was Director of archives and he did a really good job of 00:32:19.299 --> 00:32:25.816 maintaining the and it's and fixing up the university's history, the 00:32:25.849 --> 00:32:33.607 documents that we had. Um 00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:36.907 those are O. And K. Damage. 00:32:36.940 --> 00:32:41.496 Her husband was a former Grady. Gammage of former president. She had been 00:32:41.529 --> 00:32:48.316 here since he became president. How did you work with her? Well she was we 00:32:48.349 --> 00:32:54.976 had her working in the area of development and she was a major contact 00:32:55.009 --> 00:33:03.009 with people in the community who could be financially supportive of a S. U. 00:33:03.740 --> 00:33:06.407 What was she like? 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:14.440 Oh a very nice lady. Um 00:33:15.539 --> 00:33:21.806 How best would I describe it? She was, 00:33:21.839 --> 00:33:27.597 well she was considered the first lady of the university even as other 00:33:27.630 --> 00:33:33.006 first ladies came along. Um 00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:41.039 She was good with very good with people and uh extreme dedicated to the 00:33:42.210 --> 00:33:50.210 extreme to a S. U. 00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:58.266 One of the, you know how how are we going on time? Okay one of the one of 00:33:58.299 --> 00:34:01.766 the other things, another thing that I enjoy that's completely different 00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:08.407 than what we've been talking about. Um 00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:16.440 Was the opportunity for me because of my position and my responsibilities 00:34:17.260 --> 00:34:20.287 to work with 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:28.320 to know and to work with people like Barry Goldwater and uh um Sandra Day 00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:32.807 O'Connor. Um 00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.177 how did you work with them? Tell me any stories about anything that you 00:34:36.210 --> 00:34:43.456 did with Goldwater? We were we had been working for years. I think it 00:34:43.489 --> 00:34:48.407 started long before I came on a Goldwater chair. 00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:53.106 He and his friends in the community were accumulating 00:34:53.139 --> 00:35:00.416 um $1 million dollars for a chair. Well that was great. That was really 00:35:00.449 --> 00:35:05.517 important for issue because at that time we didn't have endowed chairs. 00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:12.387 It's different now university of doing a much better job of raising that 00:35:12.420 --> 00:35:14.907 kind of money. 00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:19.807 But that because they were doing that. We had, 00:35:19.840 --> 00:35:24.506 I often was with the President, had 00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:28.407 dinner with Barry and his friends 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:30.907 which, 00:35:30.940 --> 00:35:36.157 well Dean smith would know. There's a very, very interesting experience 00:35:36.190 --> 00:35:38.407 because 00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:44.977 Barry and his brother and Harry Rosenzweig and the other people who he 00:35:45.010 --> 00:35:52.206 associated with were pretty colorful characters and some of the things, 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:56.816 some of the things that you know, they related about early phoenix history 00:35:56.849 --> 00:36:04.849 was pretty remarkable to me not knowing that much about it. But 00:36:06.929 --> 00:36:11.997 barry also um 00:36:12.030 --> 00:36:20.030 um wanted to, well I remember once we were in his home up on mountain. He 00:36:20.929 --> 00:36:26.287 , I've forgotten the function. It wasn't just my wife and I we were part 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:33.146 of a group but we Betsy and I were admiring his artwork and he has had a 00:36:33.179 --> 00:36:37.597 splendid collection. Unbelievable 00:36:37.630 --> 00:36:41.097 most of it. 00:36:41.130 --> 00:36:45.296 Um 00:36:45.329 --> 00:36:48.396 indian related 00:36:48.429 --> 00:36:52.697 ah early Arizona related. 00:36:52.730 --> 00:37:00.077 But he he took the time to tell us about various pieces, you know, just 00:37:00.110 --> 00:37:05.997 the two of us. And that was really impressive to me. 00:37:06.030 --> 00:37:08.287 Um 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:12.867 The Maestro Rostropovich, 00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:18.776 I'm pleased that I I think I'm I can pronounce his name correctly. He was 00:37:18.809 --> 00:37:26.809 , well, probably the one of the world's greatest cellists and 00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:36.506 one of the great stories. I don't know if it's great, but it's a interest 00:37:36.539 --> 00:37:43.546 me every time I think about it. Um he was here, 00:37:43.579 --> 00:37:48.887 I got to know some of these people for the reasons that I alluded to with 00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:55.066 Barry Goldwater, but also because I was in charge of, not in charge of, I 00:37:55.099 --> 00:38:02.387 was responsible for some of the arrangements that went with commencements 00:38:02.420 --> 00:38:09.186 where we order awarded honorary degrees to people invited 00:38:09.219 --> 00:38:17.219 very important people and I got it because I was responsible. I had that 00:38:17.429 --> 00:38:22.467 opportunity to meet them and get them settled and get him going in the 00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:30.500 commencement ceremony itself, which the script of which um I wrote. 00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:34.347 But 00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:37.986 maestro Rostropovich 00:38:38.019 --> 00:38:41.287 was here on one occasion 00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:49.166 to present and musicians have a, a special word for this, which escapes me. 00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:56.267 But it was a session where he was going to here and critique performances 00:38:56.300 --> 00:39:04.300 by outstanding young people who are jealous from the state of Arizona. And 00:39:06.920 --> 00:39:10.467 we did it. It was to happen in the music, one of the music, the music 00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:16.046 building. And it's a building with a 00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:20.586 small auditorium and very steep 00:39:20.619 --> 00:39:23.157 seeding 00:39:23.190 --> 00:39:29.387 and the performance area down below 00:39:29.420 --> 00:39:33.387 George, 00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:37.186 chairman of the music department. 00:39:37.219 --> 00:39:41.586 I'll think of his name. Amberson 00:39:41.619 --> 00:39:49.387 of course was very much involved in this and 00:39:49.420 --> 00:39:55.497 I was over there to be sure that the maestro was happy and things were 00:39:55.530 --> 00:40:02.717 going right. And Amberson, George, Amberson then suddenly had to take part 00:40:02.750 --> 00:40:08.597 in a hearing of some kind. There was a university hearing very serious. I 00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:14.177 never knew what it was, but he had to be there. 00:40:14.210 --> 00:40:18.077 He was going to um, 00:40:18.110 --> 00:40:21.977 um, emcee the program. 00:40:22.010 --> 00:40:29.217 Well, he turned to me and I said George, I really don't feel comfortable 00:40:29.250 --> 00:40:35.376 doing this. I don't feel qualified to do it. I'm, my knowledge of music is 00:40:35.409 --> 00:40:41.477 very limited and it's not much about the cello and 00:40:41.510 --> 00:40:43.977 um, 00:40:44.010 --> 00:40:52.010 like he had to go, I couldn't get out of it. Taki Atsumi Sue me, japanese 00:40:52.219 --> 00:40:55.876 cellist on our faculty. 00:40:55.909 --> 00:41:00.077 No, no, he wouldn't do it. He, 00:41:00.110 --> 00:41:04.677 I guess his concern was that 00:41:04.710 --> 00:41:11.566 his accent was pretty heavy. Um, and he was, I think concerned that not 00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:17.197 everybody would be able to understand him. So to make it short, I 00:41:17.230 --> 00:41:22.407 inherited that. I mean it was, I was stuck with it. It had to go on all 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:28.197 these people are here and there. I am. So I have to introduce Rostropovich 00:41:28.230 --> 00:41:33.677 , which wasn't, I didn't mind that so bad. But 00:41:33.710 --> 00:41:41.296 then next I had to introduce each perform, each student cellist 00:41:41.329 --> 00:41:44.876 and 00:41:44.909 --> 00:41:50.376 I had a program to go from. So that wasn't so bad. But then I also had a 00:41:50.409 --> 00:41:55.977 course to um, 00:41:56.010 --> 00:42:02.916 recite the name of the composition, some of them which were pretty unusual 00:42:02.949 --> 00:42:10.949 for me. And then the composer, wow, I was in the, I was, 00:42:12.500 --> 00:42:16.546 it was a very trying experience. 00:42:16.579 --> 00:42:21.606 And I remember looking up there and, and this audience seeing who I was 00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:29.267 talking to and I concluded, well, these are all 00:42:29.300 --> 00:42:34.997 music lovers first of all, But then I look up there again and there's Russ 00:42:35.030 --> 00:42:40.637 nelson, my boss sitting up there, big smile on his face. He's watching me 00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:44.967 down there. He knows that I'm squirming, 00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:50.767 but I didn't realize at the time was that those people didn't really care 00:42:50.800 --> 00:42:55.517 if I may be mispronounced some composers and they were there to hear 00:42:55.550 --> 00:43:00.557 Rostropovich and those students. But anyway, it was very difficult. Then I 00:43:00.590 --> 00:43:05.816 go backstage between numbers and I would consult with talking about how to 00:43:05.849 --> 00:43:10.916 pronounce this german composer's name and I'm telling you between between 00:43:10.949 --> 00:43:16.586 us. It was pathetic. I couldn't quite understand what he was saying, let 00:43:16.619 --> 00:43:23.126 alone no in the first place how to pronounce this composer's name. But we 00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:31.159 got through it. But the maestro was a charming individual and he performed 00:43:32.150 --> 00:43:40.150 for us one night out at the Care center, which was built as a center for 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:45.017 performance by chalice and it was, became the property of the universe is 00:43:45.050 --> 00:43:52.126 given to the university by louise, Lincoln care. Um, 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:57.026 I enjoyed that a lot. Were you invited all in the naming of the Cronkite 00:43:57.059 --> 00:44:01.537 school? Did you meet walter Cronkite? Yes, I did. That was important to me. 00:44:01.570 --> 00:44:07.557 I didn't work as much with him unfortunately for me, but 00:44:07.590 --> 00:44:11.526 I did have a chance to meet with him. Talk with him. I was a member of 00:44:11.559 --> 00:44:19.559 that faculty but gee you know, ah walter Cronkite, 00:44:20.590 --> 00:44:23.157 he's the best. 00:44:23.190 --> 00:44:27.767 So that was especially, do you remember how that came about that? He gave 00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:31.617 his name to them to the school 00:44:31.650 --> 00:44:39.650 someone was and I can't take credit for it. It may have been ah 00:44:40.090 --> 00:44:47.456 may have been Lonnie Ostrom. I'm not sure, but someone um 00:44:47.489 --> 00:44:52.586 approached him obviously, but I've forgotten the exact connection that 00:44:52.619 --> 00:44:58.267 made that even a possibility had something to do with that. Who, of course 00:44:58.300 --> 00:45:04.916 , of course he absolutely did. 00:45:04.949 --> 00:45:10.956 That's the name I had heard for a long time. But you're correct. He did. 00:45:10.989 --> 00:45:16.356 And that's been a great deal. May I ask you, 00:45:16.389 --> 00:45:22.356 you mentioned Sandra O'Connor. How did you know? I think we, well, I knew 00:45:22.389 --> 00:45:26.756 her in the legislature. She was in the state legislature 00:45:26.789 --> 00:45:31.276 and I knew her and we'd have one of the things we do with legislators was 00:45:31.309 --> 00:45:33.356 have 00:45:33.389 --> 00:45:40.956 special weekends for them. We'd invite them out. We would 00:45:40.989 --> 00:45:45.247 make presentations, we would have them for dinner. We'd have them as our 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:48.856 guests at the football game, weed wine them and dine them only. We didn't 00:45:48.889 --> 00:45:56.889 , we didn't wind them then we find them. Okay. But I remember 00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:00.646 Sandra Day O'Connor 00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:04.447 as at one of these functions. 00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:06.646 Mm hmm. 00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:12.787 Troy come here. She said, I've forgotten the detail of it. But she was 00:46:12.820 --> 00:46:18.686 telling me that something ought to be done a little differently. I mean 00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:26.347 that was happening right then. She is a very um, 00:46:26.380 --> 00:46:31.347 I got the impression from that that she was a very take control 00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:38.347 the kind of person. We then we had her here for our anniversary function 00:46:38.380 --> 00:46:43.447 as a guest and I got to spend some time with her there and she's just 00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:46.247 charming. 00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:51.126 one of the other legislators who must have been, 00:46:51.159 --> 00:46:58.747 oh yes Burton Barr, the speaker of the house and a very tough customer. 00:46:58.780 --> 00:47:04.646 Very tough. We could, 00:47:04.679 --> 00:47:12.679 we could, we had no special um, 00:47:12.980 --> 00:47:16.646 let's say, how would I say it? 00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:24.506 We had no special appeal to Burton barr. He was not unfair. But neither 00:47:24.539 --> 00:47:32.539 could we gain any real favor with him. He was a good speaker of the House 00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:38.146 but difficult for us to, 00:47:38.179 --> 00:47:42.847 as I say, make any gains with. Mhm. 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:49.796 It wasn't an alumni didn't have Children. No, no, none of those things. 00:47:49.829 --> 00:47:52.037 Yes, 00:47:52.070 --> 00:47:59.077 not much. But my first recollection of alfredo when I came, he was a 00:47:59.110 --> 00:48:03.637 student and he was, 00:48:03.670 --> 00:48:11.670 let's say, what would I say? Um, 00:48:11.969 --> 00:48:17.736 there's an expression I use that's not appropriate for this. But he was, 00:48:17.769 --> 00:48:25.137 he was an activist. That'd be really the best word. It was at a time when 00:48:25.170 --> 00:48:27.936 the 00:48:27.969 --> 00:48:34.037 hispanic, populous stage of population of students was 00:48:34.070 --> 00:48:40.706 doing some demonstrating. I mean, they, they wanted, uh, more 00:48:40.739 --> 00:48:47.006 opportunities than they felt they were getting. And he was one of them. 00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:49.816 And what really, 00:48:49.849 --> 00:48:54.717 I didn't know him well, but and what bothered me was that he never 00:48:54.750 --> 00:49:00.267 finished his degree here. He was just real close. And I thought, oh my God 00:49:00.300 --> 00:49:05.566 , this guy goes down the legislature. You know, he is really powerful and 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:09.236 here we have failed 00:49:09.269 --> 00:49:13.776 to make him an alumnus. Really. I mean, he's an alumnus saying that he 00:49:13.809 --> 00:49:20.907 took courses here, but it could have been so much better if we had 00:49:20.940 --> 00:49:27.236 graduated, had gotten him back here to graduate him. But yeah, he's, it's 00:49:27.269 --> 00:49:30.947 been fun to watch his career. And that reminds me talking about the 00:49:30.980 --> 00:49:33.986 hispanic demonstrations, I was working with the historical society 00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:38.606 recently looking at some old films of demonstrations on campus and one of 00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:43.557 them was the group of Hispanics coming to see the president and they were 00:49:43.590 --> 00:49:46.956 marching up there to see the president. The president wasn't there? 00:49:46.989 --> 00:49:52.646 Someone was standing outside the president. That wasn't, you know, I've 00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:56.006 always wondered who that person was saying. You can see the president, but 00:49:56.039 --> 00:50:03.367 he's not here today. That's something I would say, but I didn't, I think 00:50:03.400 --> 00:50:08.856 that was right before I came. I one of the first things I did, however, 00:50:08.889 --> 00:50:15.727 one of the first things I was invited to was a meeting of the president 00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:20.427 with such a delegation in the boardroom 00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:28.026 and I went. one of the things at that point I believe. 00:50:28.059 --> 00:50:33.427 Um and I think Jim Cressman was involved in this. 00:50:33.460 --> 00:50:36.526 Um 00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:40.006 one of their concerns was that there weren't enough. There are people in 00:50:40.039 --> 00:50:45.727 our in our student body and it was true. Ah 00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:48.097 But it was 00:50:48.130 --> 00:50:55.126 it was something I had never seen before because I grew up 00:50:55.159 --> 00:50:58.626 in South Dakota. 00:50:58.659 --> 00:51:00.986 No Hispanics. 00:51:01.019 --> 00:51:05.916 I think in the town city of Sioux Falls, I think there was one black 00:51:05.949 --> 00:51:13.427 person. So I grew up in a super anglo 00:51:13.460 --> 00:51:21.460 area of the country and I had no experience with that with the Hispanics 00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:30.760 and these were adults and they were angry. So it was unusual meeting but 00:51:30.860 --> 00:51:37.097 the president met with him. The president then was Harry New Bern. I think 00:51:37.130 --> 00:51:43.626 the other, the incident to which you refer, 00:51:43.659 --> 00:51:51.659 I don't I shouldn't say I know it preceded that and it may have been Homer 00:51:52.530 --> 00:51:55.727 Durham, but I'm not sure 00:51:55.760 --> 00:51:58.727 protected. 00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:06.760 What is it about your time here at a. S. U. That you're proudest of 00:52:08.650 --> 00:52:14.686 proudest of in the sense of what I may have accomplished or of the 00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:19.217 university. 00:52:19.250 --> 00:52:25.097 I guess 00:52:25.130 --> 00:52:29.517 I would think that 00:52:29.550 --> 00:52:32.597 on a personal basis. 00:52:32.630 --> 00:52:40.630 I think I'm um proud of the fact that I I was able to relate well with 00:52:43.449 --> 00:52:51.449 various segments of the university with faculty students and staff and uh 00:52:52.150 --> 00:52:55.217 that 00:52:55.250 --> 00:53:02.876 in the most part I earned their trust and confidence. 00:53:02.909 --> 00:53:08.947 I couldn't always solve the problem, but sometimes I could help. Were 00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:12.126 there any things in your notes that you wanted to tell us that you didn't 00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:16.617 get to? 00:53:16.650 --> 00:53:19.816 I if 00:53:19.849 --> 00:53:24.717 yes, I should say something about 00:53:24.750 --> 00:53:32.750 um the three presidents since I was directly I was assistant to when the 00:53:34.530 --> 00:53:37.186 new president of coming, they'd say who's that sitting in there and they'd 00:53:37.219 --> 00:53:43.106 say that's your assistant, right? That's a tough position to be in. No, it 00:53:43.139 --> 00:53:50.316 wasn't like that. Fortunately they all found me acceptable. 00:53:50.349 --> 00:53:54.367 But Harry knew burn as I say, I had known a long time. So that was, we 00:53:54.400 --> 00:54:02.400 were very close john swallow to of course I had not met before. He was as 00:54:02.730 --> 00:54:09.597 I did mention a very good budget person, very sharp individual, But one 00:54:09.630 --> 00:54:14.506 who never was 00:54:14.539 --> 00:54:20.907 close to or appreciated by faculty and part of that. 00:54:20.940 --> 00:54:23.506 Um 00:54:23.539 --> 00:54:30.057 There was a, I got the feeling that um well, Homer Durham was very good. I 00:54:30.090 --> 00:54:34.447 mean he had good relationships with faculty. I didn't, I knew Homer Durham 00:54:34.480 --> 00:54:40.387 but not well. Um I think a lot of faculty expected to see john swallow 00:54:40.420 --> 00:54:45.626 standing down by the fountain and they might drop by and they chat awhile 00:54:45.659 --> 00:54:48.407 well 00:54:48.440 --> 00:54:56.440 at a school as large as this one that's really not workable. Um They, some 00:54:57.289 --> 00:55:02.927 faculty would say they can't get to see the president? Well I was right 00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:06.927 there and I knew that was not true. Anybody could get to see the president. 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:12.756 You have to make an appointment, but they get to see him. Um, one of the 00:55:12.789 --> 00:55:16.407 things that he did not do, 00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:24.440 which um, linked to this feeling was that 00:55:25.039 --> 00:55:30.907 he didn't get out enough on campus. He concentrated too much on the office 00:55:30.940 --> 00:55:37.407 and people off campus. And 00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:44.057 I probably, as I look back on it should have done more to correct that I 00:55:44.090 --> 00:55:49.486 got him to reserve time on his calendar for that purpose 00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:57.477 and he would sometimes get out and you know, if a president or digging in 00:55:57.510 --> 00:56:03.807 or vice president or whoever walks into some guy's lab and starts chatting 00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:10.497 with the researcher that's really important. I didn't get him out enough 00:56:10.530 --> 00:56:13.097 and he was, 00:56:13.130 --> 00:56:18.477 I should have forced him probably to improve that situation. Russ Nelson 00:56:18.510 --> 00:56:25.367 was followed, Swallow, Swallow was here 10 years. Russ nelson was very 00:56:25.400 --> 00:56:30.836 faculty oriented. He was, he was a good administrator, but he was always 00:56:30.869 --> 00:56:36.626 almost in many senses more like a faculty member than administrator. He 00:56:36.659 --> 00:56:38.997 was 00:56:39.030 --> 00:56:44.997 well ex well, therefore well accepted by the faculty and 00:56:45.030 --> 00:56:53.030 he was a joy to work with. But he was very 00:56:53.630 --> 00:56:57.796 um, let's say, what should I say? 00:56:57.829 --> 00:57:01.497 He demanded near perfection 00:57:01.530 --> 00:57:08.336 in many things that I did little things that, oh, I always prepare the 00:57:08.369 --> 00:57:13.577 board agendas. Well, I'm telling him what I thought was a pretty good 00:57:13.610 --> 00:57:17.077 board agenda would come back from him all marked up and I'm a pretty good 00:57:17.110 --> 00:57:24.666 writer or was and but there was some there was some backup missing perhaps 00:57:24.699 --> 00:57:30.977 or whatever. But he was very demanding that document when it finally got 00:57:31.010 --> 00:57:35.356 out was that you couldn't find anything wrong with it. But he was that way 00:57:35.389 --> 00:57:42.727 with reports and and so forth. Very uh not demanding in an ugly way but he 00:57:42.760 --> 00:57:48.006 had very high expectations. And he had me do some speech writing form 00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:53.197 which I enjoyed a great deal. And 00:57:53.230 --> 00:58:01.230 he was a he was a good a good person. Good president. I bought on to a 00:58:01.869 --> 00:58:09.256 theory. Well before Russ got here, I guess that l thomas advanced in some 00:58:09.289 --> 00:58:14.546 of his works. He wrote a history of the university but he also written 00:58:14.579 --> 00:58:18.986 other things. But he had a theory 00:58:19.019 --> 00:58:27.019 which as I say, I bought onto that A. S. U. Was fortunate in that 00:58:27.320 --> 00:58:33.736 through its history. Um Each of the presidents that came along had a, he 00:58:33.769 --> 00:58:41.347 had special skills and abilities and traits that made them particularly 00:58:41.380 --> 00:58:47.686 valuable at that time in the university development. And 00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:55.086 I felt that was true and I I I felt it continued to be true. I can't speak 00:58:55.119 --> 00:59:01.387 beyond Russ nelson because I didn't work for The other two presidents. 00:59:01.420 --> 00:59:07.146 What was Russ nelson's special skills, his special thing that made him 00:59:07.179 --> 00:59:10.986 special and right for his time. 00:59:11.019 --> 00:59:16.787 I think at that time we needed, 00:59:16.820 --> 00:59:20.796 well he was very much committed to as were all of them for that matter. 00:59:20.829 --> 00:59:28.829 But I think he was more effective in, um, his push for quality and faculty 00:59:32.059 --> 00:59:34.986 teaching and research 00:59:35.019 --> 00:59:37.787 and uh, 00:59:37.820 --> 00:59:41.787 he was a very, 00:59:41.820 --> 00:59:45.456 I don't believe that. 00:59:45.489 --> 00:59:51.347 And he worked well with the board as did the others. But I don't think to 00:59:51.380 --> 00:59:55.947 my knowledge, there's no one that had the opportunity to meet Russ nelson 00:59:55.980 --> 01:00:03.876 that didn't like him. I could be wrong, but I don't know of any. He's a, 01:00:03.909 --> 01:00:09.367 he still lives here in Tempe. Was it unusual for you to stay in this job? 01:00:09.400 --> 01:00:12.776 You moved all your other jobs? You said six years was a long time. What 01:00:12.809 --> 01:00:18.677 was it about an issue that made you stay here? Well, I, many things I like 01:00:18.710 --> 01:00:25.177 the university and the people that I had to work with. Uh, 01:00:25.210 --> 01:00:29.347 but 01:00:29.380 --> 01:00:33.467 it was primarily the president's. I mean I had to work directly with them 01:00:33.500 --> 01:00:40.327 , but it was also very much the school and the acquaintances and working 01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:45.557 relationships I had developed. I like to ask you, I retired at the age of 01:00:45.590 --> 01:00:47.577 62 01:00:47.610 --> 01:00:53.376 and I almost, I did feel guilty about it. I thought, my God, I've got the 01:00:53.409 --> 01:01:00.376 best damn job around and I did, I was special assistant to president then 01:01:00.409 --> 01:01:08.409 I indeed felt guilty. I mean, Why am I retiring at 62 leaving this place? 01:01:11.210 --> 01:01:15.117 Well, my answer to Russ nelson was when I let him know in advance of 01:01:15.150 --> 01:01:17.677 course 01:01:17.710 --> 01:01:23.727 was, and june pain would appreciate this. I, I said Russ. there are a lot 01:01:23.760 --> 01:01:27.876 of snow geese that I haven't photographed 01:01:27.909 --> 01:01:31.896 and he enjoyed that. I've done a lot of photography and we've been to 01:01:31.929 --> 01:01:38.787 Africa twice on photography trips and, and we've also done a lot of the 01:01:38.820 --> 01:01:46.776 first when we first retired. For example, I bought a pickup and a shell. 01:01:46.809 --> 01:01:53.977 You know what a shell is just not very deep. And we built a bed in there 01:01:54.010 --> 01:01:57.367 and we took off for six months, my wife and you know, there's, there's 01:01:57.400 --> 01:02:02.097 another test of a marriage living in the back end of a pickup for six 01:02:02.130 --> 01:02:06.807 months. We went up to the west coast and prowled around that part of the 01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:11.106 country, did a lot of photography and we loved it. Oh yeah. And then we 01:02:11.139 --> 01:02:15.387 had like most people who get addicted to it, then you have to have a 01:02:15.420 --> 01:02:18.986 different camping vehicle. Is there anything else in your notes that you 01:02:19.019 --> 01:02:22.706 wanted to bring up? Yeah, Well, I'm, I'm thinking of how best to respond 01:02:22.739 --> 01:02:30.267 to your question. I think it, I think it would be appropriate to say that 01:02:30.300 --> 01:02:34.066 despite what I've said about how difficult it was to get financing and it 01:02:34.099 --> 01:02:39.617 was and we never had enough. And maybe maybe that's the way it goes. Maybe 01:02:39.650 --> 01:02:47.650 you never have enough. But I think despite those um, restraints and 01:02:49.059 --> 01:02:55.796 despite the fact that the enrollment continued to grow and it wasn't, it 01:02:55.829 --> 01:03:00.566 wasn't a matter of, uh, universities 01:03:00.599 --> 01:03:06.267 working to become larger. I mean it was the fact that we were in this area 01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:12.637 and more students were seeking an education where you can't say sorry, you 01:03:12.670 --> 01:03:18.376 gotta take them, your state institution. So coping with that kind of 01:03:18.409 --> 01:03:25.566 growth, I think it's remarkable that the university actually improved 01:03:25.599 --> 01:03:30.816 the quality of its faculty and staff. It was able to attract some 01:03:30.849 --> 01:03:36.557 outstanding faculty members and that of course is the most important thing 01:03:36.590 --> 01:03:39.467 of all to the university. 01:03:39.500 --> 01:03:45.686 Um I think it, it gained in stature in the 01:03:45.719 --> 01:03:51.477 the university became, you found it more often listed among the leading 01:03:51.510 --> 01:03:57.586 universities in one respect or another in one area, one school or another. 01:03:57.619 --> 01:04:03.467 It, in other words, it was making real progress ah despite the 01:04:03.500 --> 01:04:11.500 limitations and it was clear it was happening, it was on its way. 01:04:12.090 --> 01:04:14.356 Um 01:04:14.389 --> 01:04:17.057 one of the things, 01:04:17.090 --> 01:04:25.090 one of your questions that I think maybe we've touched on in a way um 01:04:25.190 --> 01:04:32.657 um has to do with the worst memory I have of S. U. B. 01:04:32.690 --> 01:04:36.756 Well I'm going to 01:04:36.789 --> 01:04:40.296 when I was, I needed digress, I'd go down and you know what a bunny trail 01:04:40.329 --> 01:04:46.566 is. Yeah. You know, you kind of get off the subject meander around then 01:04:46.599 --> 01:04:53.956 you get back to bunny truck when you get back to the question, when I was 01:04:53.989 --> 01:04:57.456 working here, I smoked a pipe all the time and in those days you could 01:04:57.489 --> 01:05:01.796 smoke even indoors and there's not a problem, nobody died of it. Maybe the 01:05:01.829 --> 01:05:08.106 smoker But one of the advantages that you could light up your pipe, 01:05:08.139 --> 01:05:16.066 difficult question facing, you know, lift up your pipe, suck down a couple 01:05:16.099 --> 01:05:18.916 of times and give you time, you have all the time, you're thinking, how am 01:05:18.949 --> 01:05:26.949 I going to answer this? Um, but I don't have that. Um, but the bad time in 01:05:28.820 --> 01:05:35.956 a general sense and it's really, um, it's bad 01:05:35.989 --> 01:05:43.046 was the fact that ah, this university, I know it's just, I'm getting 01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:50.456 redundant but has never had the financial support it deserves. 01:05:50.489 --> 01:05:56.046 I'm pleased to see that the, the people here now are doing a much better 01:05:56.079 --> 01:06:02.227 job of raising private funds because that's almost where it's at now. 01:06:02.260 --> 01:06:10.260 State funding is never going to improve much in Arizona as in or in any 01:06:10.739 --> 01:06:15.947 other state. So the university has, 01:06:15.980 --> 01:06:22.617 it's have been unable to maintain for instance, a level of faculty 01:06:22.650 --> 01:06:27.977 salaries that really is appropriate when you compare this university with 01:06:28.010 --> 01:06:33.267 other universities and you know, salaries is that, that's how you get and 01:06:33.300 --> 01:06:39.807 hold people and if you don't do it, you lose them. Um, I think we made 01:06:39.840 --> 01:06:44.677 some real gains there and I, as I, everything I can see indicates that in 01:06:44.710 --> 01:06:50.947 the papers that we're continuing to do so, um, 01:06:50.980 --> 01:06:55.827 one band Little Incident, I don't know if this would be a good way to end 01:06:55.860 --> 01:07:01.916 it or not. But one of the things that really sticks in my craw is that we 01:07:01.949 --> 01:07:09.517 bought off the contract of a basketball coach and I just 01:07:09.550 --> 01:07:13.307 that bothered me a great deal because of cost a lot of money. And you know 01:07:13.340 --> 01:07:17.657 , we didn't have, there wasn't much money to go around for salary 01:07:17.690 --> 01:07:21.546 increases for faculty and staff, 01:07:21.579 --> 01:07:28.747 but for whatever reason, we decided that we needed to get rid of this 01:07:28.780 --> 01:07:31.947 basketball coach in the middle of the year. We could have lived out the 01:07:31.980 --> 01:07:37.646 year, you know, so it was a bad season. But 01:07:37.679 --> 01:07:41.706 that was an instance where the president didn't ask my advice. I told him 01:07:41.739 --> 01:07:45.296 what I thought about it, but it was too late. It was done. Who was the 01:07:45.329 --> 01:07:48.546 president? Who was the coach? 01:07:48.579 --> 01:07:54.256 His name was bob something, he was a basketball coach. Do you remember his 01:07:54.289 --> 01:07:58.247 name? I don't remember his name. 01:07:58.280 --> 01:08:03.336 Um And 01:08:03.369 --> 01:08:10.916 Russ didn't consult me. He knew that I was close to the athletic director 01:08:10.949 --> 01:08:14.927 and he thought maybe you'd better leave me out of this loop. But I think 01:08:14.960 --> 01:08:19.107 it was wrong. Um, 01:08:19.140 --> 01:08:25.036 I think it it tends to um, 01:08:25.069 --> 01:08:30.536 for one thing, I don't think you ever ought to buy off coach's contract, 01:08:30.569 --> 01:08:38.569 but it leans toward overemphasis of athletics. And that is a concern for 01:08:38.800 --> 01:08:45.246 me. It gets way out of whack salaries of a coach could be so much more and 01:08:45.279 --> 01:08:50.336 they are now so much more than the president 01:08:50.369 --> 01:08:58.369 as an or of the most senior full professor. That's wrong. I used to, in my 01:08:58.909 --> 01:09:01.237 own mind 01:09:01.270 --> 01:09:06.536 justify At least two x sense 01:09:06.569 --> 01:09:10.737 a sus athletic program because it was in a very populous area and could 01:09:10.770 --> 01:09:15.477 draw large crowds into football games and that paid most of the bills. But 01:09:15.510 --> 01:09:22.477 when, when that doesn't work or when you think of places like Washington 01:09:22.510 --> 01:09:28.496 state in pullman, you know that you aren't going to sell many football 01:09:28.529 --> 01:09:32.076 tickets. They're they're they're out hunting elk and there aren't many of 01:09:32.109 --> 01:09:36.876 them in the first place. So They, in order to stay in the PAC 10 for 01:09:36.909 --> 01:09:43.897 example, are using money that is could better be used for educational 01:09:43.930 --> 01:09:50.607 purposes. Athletic programs are, I don't know. I don't know if there's any 01:09:50.640 --> 01:09:55.796 retreat, but they have gone too far. Speaking of athletics, you were here 01:09:55.829 --> 01:10:00.626 with frank kush. 01:10:00.659 --> 01:10:05.717 Well, it's one of those things where 01:10:05.750 --> 01:10:12.300 I put a lot of it out of my mind because it wasn't, it wasn't a happy time. 01:10:14.060 --> 01:10:16.060 But 01:10:16.859 --> 01:10:23.326 let me give you my impression of parts of it that I remember, 01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:27.336 I like frank kush. I haven't seen him lately, but I have seen him a number 01:10:27.369 --> 01:10:30.626 of times since I retired. 01:10:30.659 --> 01:10:33.626 He was 01:10:33.659 --> 01:10:37.626 a good coach. She was, 01:10:37.659 --> 01:10:40.227 but 01:10:40.260 --> 01:10:44.347 he had become too big for this institution. You know, God, it was frank 01:10:44.380 --> 01:10:48.347 frank kush was the most important name you could mention around here. Well 01:10:48.380 --> 01:10:52.527 , that's wrong. Um, 01:10:52.560 --> 01:10:55.626 and then the, 01:10:55.659 --> 01:11:03.659 the incident where he after on the side of my head an athlete. I don't 01:11:04.250 --> 01:11:08.027 like that either. I mean, I don't think coaches ought to be hitting 01:11:08.060 --> 01:11:12.227 players. Um, 01:11:12.260 --> 01:11:15.307 I think it was 01:11:15.340 --> 01:11:22.496 probably appropriate. I know he has many loyal followers. Um, and as I say 01:11:22.529 --> 01:11:28.326 , I like him and I respect him as a coach Except for that one time 01:11:28.359 --> 01:11:36.359 and he was very successful. He was, but it was, I just think of an example 01:11:37.279 --> 01:11:45.227 of maybe not personally, but of that sport becoming way too big for the 01:11:45.260 --> 01:11:51.887 university. It must have been a difficult decision. Oh yes, it was and it 01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:54.927 wasn't, 01:11:54.960 --> 01:11:59.126 oh, it wasn't, 01:11:59.159 --> 01:12:05.616 it certainly wasn't easy on anyone's part. But I always, um, I suggest 01:12:05.649 --> 01:12:09.916 that a president, for example, 01:12:09.949 --> 01:12:15.187 you could say the same of other administrative officials. They kind of, in 01:12:15.220 --> 01:12:19.017 a sense, they have a punch card 01:12:19.050 --> 01:12:24.456 and there are only so many punches on it. And if you take any, if you make 01:12:24.489 --> 01:12:29.836 any big moves, especially unpopular ones, there's a punch. There's another 01:12:29.869 --> 01:12:34.416 one. If you do nothing, you don't have to worry about the punches. But if 01:12:34.449 --> 01:12:41.527 you do anything pretty soon, you're gonna use up the card, do nothing, no 01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:45.027 marks against him. But if you do something you're bound to, the more you 01:12:45.060 --> 01:12:49.336 do, the more marks you get against you. That's true. Not only are 01:12:49.369 --> 01:12:54.097 presidents, but Dean's, I mean, 01:12:54.130 --> 01:12:59.897 if you really take a stand that's on a meaningful issue, there are a lot 01:12:59.930 --> 01:13:05.217 of people are not going to like that, that little piece of the population 01:13:05.250 --> 01:13:09.727 you've lost and then you do something else and you lose another little 01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:14.786 piece and pretty soon you don't have any friends. I mean you don't have 01:13:14.819 --> 01:13:18.737 any supporters. Well why was it that the decision was made to let frank 01:13:18.770 --> 01:13:24.817 kush Well because he here the player 01:13:24.850 --> 01:13:29.107 couldn't the president have decided to keep him anyway. Oh yeah. Well 01:13:29.140 --> 01:13:33.866 there was more more than hitting the player. There was also a thing about 01:13:33.899 --> 01:13:40.116 and I've forgotten how it went. But it had to do with 01:13:40.149 --> 01:13:47.817 um and I don't even know the the facts in the case. But it had to do with 01:13:47.850 --> 01:13:55.850 uh student athletes earning credits in some funny way off campus. 01:13:57.880 --> 01:14:02.607 Oh yes there was more to it than just hitting the student. 01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:08.477 But it was not. I remember them. I remember frank's last game and they got 01:14:08.510 --> 01:14:12.506 carried them off on their shoulders and you know, it was really a 01:14:12.539 --> 01:14:17.897 momentous occasion to say the least. And it must have been I would think 01:14:17.930 --> 01:14:22.467 in the president's office difficult time. Were you involved in some of 01:14:22.500 --> 01:14:24.506 that? 01:14:24.539 --> 01:14:30.406 I was more in that time 01:14:30.439 --> 01:14:33.607 I guess. Nobody, 01:14:33.640 --> 01:14:38.717 nobody asked me what I thought on that subject. one time, John Suada said 01:14:38.750 --> 01:14:46.750 to me I shouldn't, no I shouldn't say that in a way in a 01:14:46.939 --> 01:14:51.296 I don't know exactly how he said it but he offered me the opportunity to 01:14:51.329 --> 01:14:59.006 have run the athletic program and I said no I don't he may not have been 01:14:59.039 --> 01:15:04.506 serious but I objected nonetheless. 01:15:04.539 --> 01:15:11.006 But I on the other hand, I never missed a football game while I was here 01:15:11.039 --> 01:15:19.039 and I enjoy athletics, it's just a little too professional. 01:15:19.340 --> 01:15:22.996 What kind of advice do you give young people today that are just starting 01:15:23.029 --> 01:15:27.887 off choosing their careers? Oh well you'd have to get two or three more 01:15:27.920 --> 01:15:34.317 rolls of film probably to do that. No, I think briefly and I'll just think 01:15:34.350 --> 01:15:38.107 of some things that it's not certainly 01:15:38.140 --> 01:15:42.487 the works. But 01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:45.406 I think clearly 01:15:45.439 --> 01:15:51.357 high school graduates now must go on to school somewhere. It could be a 01:15:51.390 --> 01:15:56.206 trade school, whatever. I don't 01:15:56.239 --> 01:16:02.376 I mean if you are if you can do the work, if you are academically 01:16:02.409 --> 01:16:10.076 qualified, you've got to do it in this day and age without some post high 01:16:10.109 --> 01:16:18.109 school degree. You're really disadvantaged seriously, much more than a few 01:16:18.199 --> 01:16:24.206 years, some few years ago now, everybody, you know, everybody everybody's 01:16:24.239 --> 01:16:30.666 got a degree, everybody's going to school. Uh So they've got to do that, I 01:16:30.699 --> 01:16:35.427 don't think and one of the things that this is going to, most people are 01:16:35.460 --> 01:16:41.597 gonna think I'm crazy or they won't won't agree with me. But 01:16:41.630 --> 01:16:48.696 I think a lot of um Might consider the military service 1st. 01:16:48.729 --> 01:16:56.729 Um Why? Because I guess for two reasons. one 01:16:56.800 --> 01:17:02.097 some students need a little more maturity perhaps or would be better off 01:17:02.130 --> 01:17:10.130 with it. Um Also those services will help you pay your educational bills. 01:17:10.630 --> 01:17:18.097 So if finance is a problem, that's one way to do it. Um 01:17:18.130 --> 01:17:21.397 I don't think that 01:17:21.430 --> 01:17:26.156 and I don't know how I can't speak for them, but I don't think any student 01:17:26.189 --> 01:17:33.876 should feel uh any commuter students should feel as in any way a second 01:17:33.909 --> 01:17:38.397 class students. Um 01:17:38.430 --> 01:17:44.206 A. S. U. Has always been a commuter school. Um I don't know what the 01:17:44.239 --> 01:17:51.796 numbers are right now, but I do know that when I was here 01:17:51.829 --> 01:17:57.347 very large proportion of students worked to pay their way, some of them 01:17:57.380 --> 01:18:03.307 full time. Um our graduation rate didn't look good. I mean we didn't 01:18:03.340 --> 01:18:08.647 finish as many kids in four years. Well gee that's pretty understandable. 01:18:08.680 --> 01:18:11.607 They were carrying full loads. They were doing other things with their 01:18:11.640 --> 01:18:16.687 lives that made that going to school possible. 01:18:16.720 --> 01:18:18.786 Um 01:18:18.819 --> 01:18:23.277 There are some people point out some drawbacks. I mean you're not a part 01:18:23.310 --> 01:18:30.046 of not living on campus, you're missing some things. But uh those are some 01:18:30.079 --> 01:18:33.487 of the choices you have to make. 01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:39.166 But I think that one of the things that I've I've in the past when I 01:18:39.199 --> 01:18:41.586 talked to students, 01:18:41.619 --> 01:18:47.557 I don't know if I impressed anybody or if I even made it clear, but I 01:18:47.590 --> 01:18:52.487 think students have a great responsibility. Um no matter where they're at 01:18:52.520 --> 01:19:00.520 what kind of school to seek out and pursue all the resources that are 01:19:01.100 --> 01:19:09.100 there for them. They need to persist. Uh They need to talk to faculty and 01:19:10.420 --> 01:19:13.097 instructors, 01:19:13.130 --> 01:19:18.246 they need to they need to use the library more than is absolutely required 01:19:18.279 --> 01:19:23.887 , um, 01:19:23.920 --> 01:19:29.046 advisers and student organizations, all those things, they've got to 01:19:29.079 --> 01:19:35.687 pursue them actively. You can get by without doing that. Nobody's going to 01:19:35.720 --> 01:19:38.937 force those 01:19:38.970 --> 01:19:41.767 in most cases, they're not going to force them on you and you just, you're 01:19:41.800 --> 01:19:47.116 missing a whole lot if you don't work at it yourself. I mean, you're, the 01:19:47.149 --> 01:19:51.677 quality of your education would be a lot different if you work at it. If 01:19:51.710 --> 01:19:55.347 you just say, well, I'm, you know, I'm gonna make it, we go and get the 01:19:55.380 --> 01:20:03.380 class every time and passed the course, sure you get a degree. But it's uh 01:20:03.699 --> 01:20:07.326 in a way, it's like what I did in my early years, so I just met the 01:20:07.359 --> 01:20:10.746 requirements and got it done. 01:20:10.779 --> 01:20:16.977 And that's not the way that's not the best way. 01:20:17.010 --> 01:20:22.177 Anything else that you wanted to tell us that? I didn't ask you. 01:20:22.210 --> 01:20:28.177 Oh, I can't think of anything right now. Um, 01:20:28.210 --> 01:20:33.756 as I glanced at my notes, I think I've touched on most things. I would 01:20:33.789 --> 01:20:39.076 only say that I appreciate the opportunity to be included in this project. 01:20:39.109 --> 01:20:43.340 Thank you for coming down and spending the time withus