three and I'm pam Stevenson. We're doing an interview here at issue for
the living history video project, the Arizona State University retirees
association. And I'd like to let you introduce yourself. Do you want to
give me your name and tell me what you were doing at HQ when you retired?
Okay. I'm, my name is Troy crowder. I retired in
1986
and at that time I was special assistant to the president
and then we'll go back and talk about a little more background. Can you
tell me when you were born and where you were born and where you? Yes, I
can. I was born in 1920 for in South Dakota. Um, I grew up in, therefore
in the depression years in post depression years. Um,
my family, I guess I would describe my family, not as poor, but um, middle
class working people. Um, I had
attended public schools. There was fortunate to have good teachers, really
good teachers. I grew up in Sioux Falls, which is the largest city there.
So the educational system was better than a lot of other spots in the
state. Um,
after high school, well I should go back a minute all through high school
. I give this, I mentioned the depression because I always had to work
when I was in high school. I worked weekends, uh, sacking groceries and
selling shoes and there are a lot of, there aren't many things I haven't
tried and done during that period, but when I completed high school, I
work, I took a job in a tire shop
full time in order to pay for my expenses at the local college, which is
Augustana College
because I worked full time, I had to take night classes and that's what I
did. Um, but the first, during that first semester, um, one day, a big,
big long trailer pulled up on campus and it said something like aviation
cadets. Oh boy, that sounds good. So anyway, anyway, I enlisted in the
army Air Corps cadets and in february of that year, I went into the
service and World War II. In 1943,
I went through
pilot training all of it in Arizona, interestingly enough and graduated
from Williams field and Chandler outside Chandler as a fighter pilot. I
avoided all the, at that time, they almost had enough pilots that they
decided. And so there was a, mm, they took, they found many reasons to
watch people out of the program, but I survived fortunately and I flew P
30 eight's and P 40 seven's survived the war. Get out.
I went back to South Dakota, met my wife, I married my wife
and went back to school.
one of the strange things I did in a way, In one sense, I'm, I'm proud of
it, but it's really not the way to do it. Um, when I went back, I went
back to the University of South Dakota and
took what credits I could for army service and the commission that I'd
earned. And then I picked up the, the one semester from Augustana College
, which was a little shaky at best because
I missed some of those night classes in order to go out on dates. So my,
my academic record wasn't great. Um I remember
this is probably particularly through in algebra and german, but when I
went back to the University of South Dakota, I picked up the credits for
that semester. So then I started right in on second semester, german
second semester algebra.
Well, I don't know, it was, it wasn't a very good basis for what I did for
what I undertook
just a minute with World War Two. Then once you were a pilot, where did
you serve? Oh, I was in the pacific theater.
Um in too late really we became a a, they formed a fighter group, a new
fighter group which was made up of people who been in combat in europe as
well as we new trainees. So each, you'll have to pardon, this is one of
the things pilots do that, you know these formations, but the every
trainee was flying on the wing of someone who had been in combat and we
were with people who were decorated aces. So it was a neat idea and a very
, therefore the morale was quite high and we, the plan was, we were to be
the first escort group over Japan
for some reason and there are politics in the military as well as every
place else. We got stranded on a while. So we we flew there, I flew there
for a year and a half. We trained other people who are going through to
combat. They fly with us for a while and go to combat. So I had a very
soft military life. I'd fly one day I spend the rest of the time on the
beach and you know it was just I owned the car, it was terrible. I mean
compared to what most military experiences are, I almost felt guilty but I
didn't. Did you ever actually see real combat? No, no by the time,
by the time we got to Oahu because they didn't send us on, we didn't get
near combat. We lost people in dumb accidents but no combat. But
back to the University of South Dakota I went
because and like a lot of other G. I. S we lost you know we lost three
plus years out of our lives in terms of time we've gained some other
things, it's like the G. I. Bill but I went I went to school, I took
overloads
and went year round, they had two summer sessions so I earned my degree in
two years. What was your major, it was journalism and I had a minor in
education
and um Betsy helped, she worked, she put me through school helped put me
through the G. I. Bill wasn't really generous
then I went on to teach in high school. 1st I looked for a job, um, in
journalism reporting. The major paper in south Dakota is the Argus leader.
Unfortunately there were no openings at that time. So I fell back on my
minor and Went out and taught in high school for two years
and decided
while it was in many respects enjoyable, it really wasn't what I wanted to
do with the rest of my life. So I decided I had to get back into graduate
school
and I went to the University of Iowa
and I took, I was there under an internship
that required halftime
writing for the university
and then I took, I majored in journalism in their, what they call their
public relations sequence.
I finished school,
completed my thesis, became a father
only one year and I was the only one of the interns that did it. I don't,
I don't,
and I, I need to be careful. I'm not boastful about that. I don't mean to
be boastful about it. But what I'm trying to say is I really worked and um
, but it was, it was important that I do it and do it that way. There's a
year for you.
Well, let's see. Our son was born in 19 in 19. I graduated 1952.
Our son was born in the university hospital,
but then I went into, um, college work. My career plans at that point
centered around working at the college level in the general area, what
they call then university relations
and that's what I did in states like Kansas, michigan colorado Montana. I
moved a lot. We moved a lot. I guess so. And it wasn't only one school in
some of those states. Why don't you tell me what university relations
consisted of? What did you actually do? Well, in the earliest days it had
to do, it was primarily related to relationships with the press,
but it gradually changed to include um, relationships with all the
university public or the, all the colleges, publics, alumni development,
um, Legislative relations publications, news Bureau, all that kind of
thing. Why did you move around so much? I laughingly used to tell people I
couldn't hold a job and I decided I shouldn't say that because that wasn't
the case. Um, in those days,
the way to advance was to move. If I were to have stayed at, say, the
first school I worked at was Forte's Kansas state,
my, my salary would have inched up, but very gradually in order to really
make a jump, you had to keep an eye on the openings in the field around
the country, you go to the professional meetings and oh, they need
somebody that, uh, ah Montana or wherever. And if they paid, if the job
looked attractive and the salary was in a real advancement, I went after
it and that's why I moved so much. But it was, it has, it had its
advantages. It's a, the system shouldn't work that way, but it did then
it's probably less likely to happen that way. Now
there were advantages. But the disadvantage is, is you don't realize the
costs of moving that often. You know, you buy a house three years later,
you're trying to sell it and you're, and you can't fool around too long
before you do. And the moving costs, they never used to pay moving costs
that, you know, that was yours. That's a long answer to your question. So
how did you end up coming to Arizona?
I came in 1970,
I was invited here by Harry New Bern who was acting President.
He had been brought here as dean of the College of Education and then act
asked to act as acting president. I had worked for him at two other places.
I worked five years for him at the educational TV and radio center in ANn
Arbor, which was a ford foundation supported and was, which was the
beginning of educational television and that was exciting. But then they
decided to move it to new york and a lot of us didn't want to go to new
york new york city. So he went, oh, he went on some overseas consulting
thing and I went to the Colorado School of Mines.
Um, I later worked for him.
Well, I could follow right from there because while I was at the Colorado
School of Mines, he contacted me from the University of Montana where he
had become president, asked me to come there
and I did. So I had worked for him very closely On two other occasions. So
we knew another one, another quite well and
um very close personally.
And in those days that was before affirmative action and all the things
kicked in and required a series of interviews. You know, it was, it was in
the good uh, good old boy days, you know, somebody who wanted to hire, you
hired them and that's how it happened. So what was your first job at a
issue? My title was assistant to President and Director University
relations And at Montana,
I had, we had pull together the functions that we're kind of working
independently as was the case here, the News Bureau and Development and
Legislative relations and publications and alumni.
And we, we brought those together in the sense that I was there to help
try to make it more effective than better coordinated.
What did you think of Arizona? And and a s you when you first came here?
Well, I had fortunately been to Arizona in the military training and loved
it. I had not, I knew little about Arizona State University. And um at the
time I was at school called Oakland University in Michigan, which is a
branch of Michigan state just north of located north of Detroit
and I had been there six years, which is quite an accomplishment for me,
But harry newborn called and said, I might have something you're
interested in. And I thought he can't, I just don't think he can come up
with a job that I like better than the one I've got. But I owe it to him
to come out and talk to him. I didn't actually come out. We met somewhere
in between uh, ST louis or somewhere talked about it, but
I had not seen Arizona State University. I knew it was large and I growing
and when I came, I was, that was all affirmed it was large and it was
growing. So you took the job without seeing the campus.
That's correct.
one thing I need to say in my defense, I, I agreed to take it only if I
had a faculty appointment to go with it
because Harry knew Burns an acting president and at that time was for only
one year he was asking to in the second year, but I needed some kind of
insurance that um, if a new president came in and said, Hey, I don't want
that guy as my assistant over director of university relations that I've
got a job that I can work at until I either decide, hey, this is what I
want to do the rest of my life or by the time to look elsewhere.
So I did, yes, I did come without having seen it. My wife had never been
to Arizona and we came down in august to look at housing and in those days
they roll up those outside steps to playing. You know if you weren't you
didn't go into some air conditioned tunnel an ark, she couldn't get over
the heat. And I convinced her it was a lot of it was the heat from the
engines on the airplane. Of course it wasn't, it wasn't Arizona. But she
she grew because she didn't like the heat. I mean it's a terrible,
terrible time to move to Arizona but it worked out she loves it now An
incident and we've been married 50
seven years
which I'm also proud of?
Yeah. Coming to Arizona in august yes, I could have ended it right there.
Well, another test is, I don't know if you've ever heard of this or tried
it is putting wallpaper horizontally in the bathroom. No, I haven't tried
that. That's a real test of marriage. Actually hanging wallpaper with it
because you're not supposed to ever do that, you know that the book says
never hang wallpaper with your spouse, is that right? Oh yeah. Alright.
And then whether it's this way or this or the wrong way. Huh? I believe it.
So what did you think of as you when you first got here? What was your
first impression? Well I was I was impressed in many ways. Um
and size had a lot to do with it because I have not worked at a large
institution.
I was impressed. You could soon, well, you didn't have to be here. I
didn't have to be here too and no one would have to be here too long to
begin to know the history of the place and to see that indeed it was young
as a university scrambling
for adequate support and scrambling to cope with the growing enrollment.
It was located in a populous area in a and I'm not and wealthy state. And
those problems then become more severe reminded today's story in the paper
, President Croes says the budget has to be increased $60 million. Well,
you know, that's not gonna happen. I'd be delighted if it did, but it will
not in Arizona. Arizona doesn't have that kind of money. Especially now.
What were the issues in 1970 when you came, what were you dealing with as
university relations?
A lot of it had to do with
legislative relations. So I soon got to know the people downtown and got
to know about some of the real problems of the state. And
I realized right away. Well, no, I want to say that not all I shouldn't
put it this way. Not all legislators are well qualified to do that job.
That's very tactful
and there and we don't pay. We don't offer them kind of salary that, you
know, makes it a really attractive job. So we're to blame the public to
citizens.
So can you have any examples of dealing with any particular ones that
you'd like to talk about?
Well, usually,
well, I have a couple examples, john swallow was the second president that
I worked for. He succeeded Harry Newburgh and annually we'd have to
prepare a budget presentation with big flip charts, june remembers. And
the president had, with the help of whoever he might turn to had really
had to make the presentation.
John swallow had been um, the budget officer for the state of Kansas. He
was very good at that, but he got so wrapped up and getting ready for this.
That on the drive down to the capitol, I remember I drove, oh no, I did
not drive Gilbert Katie who was the financial vice president was along.
And he kept saying, why don't you drive once you John Swallow was so
uptight about this presentation. God, we were going 75 and 80 mph down to
the state capital and we didn't need to go that fast. I mean, we weren't
late, but
he, so we were, we were always appealing for financial help
and we had to, I and others had to uh spend time calling upon various key
people in the legislature people.
Well, we certainly visit those who are friendly people like Tony west
alumni.
One of our problems was we didn't have that many alumni and the
legislature.
Um,
we also did not have that many alumni ever on the board. The board of
regions.
Um, I'm getting a little ahead of myself because I want to save this is
maybe bad memory. But so if you have another question, why don't you
finish the story about that budget presentation? Do you remember how much
money, what was the budget? Oh you know, I don't remember, I'm terrible
about numbers anymore. They don't I don't feel the need to recall them and
I haven't read them for years and I've really cut myself off from that
world. And so I can't answer your question. How did you want to do with
that budget presentation? He did very well, but
and one of the one of the challenges he would make and nobody ever, no
legislator ever challenged him. He said we are really running lean at A. S.
U. He said there is not another public institution in this country that
is getting more out of its dollar than A. S. U. Nobody ever questioned
that and it was, it was pretty close to true. It may have been through,
but nobody ever raised any question about it. And uh he, but he made the
point. Well,
did you generally get what you ask for? No, never, never.
And part of that is part of the process. You always, you always ask for
more than you know you're gonna get. You try to reflect your needs in the
budget request,
but you have to show aside okay, your realization that the state cannot
afford it.
Some states are in much better shape in that regard. The really good
michigan new york and in earlier days California
and the funds to really
support their universities at the level and put them in the very top
categories in every respect. But I grew up in ST south Dakota head
five state schools
Montana had about the same number. Neither of those states should ever
have had five schools. They should have had two at the most and I guess
you can't get by with one anymore. Nebraska almost does but still has
other schools besides the university. So it was a S. U. Part of it was
that you're competing with. Oh yes
as the new university.
We were
we were really um
fighting to gain equal treatment. We were not, we were almost the other
kid on the block. They had the medical school and they had the other
professional schools, they had them a long time. They had alumni who had
been out in the world longer than than our professional school graduates.
And they were better established it as a, as the university, they own the
board of regions, which was, I'm just about saving that til later. But I
can't hold it any longer.
That was one of the problems.
The board was all, they were always very,
there were good people on the board but they, their allegiance was more
often than not you they and we were not able to correct that. I always,
There was one time I thought someday and I even said this. I hope nobody
ever remembers it because I was wrong. I said someday A. S. U. Is going to
own the legislature and the and the board. God we're in the populist
community, you know where all the people are. We need to elect a governor
who is an alumnus of the university. The governor appoints the board
members.
And I predicted that That would happen in 10 or 15 years. It has not And
it's been 30 years.
I remember back in 1970 I went to U. C. L. A. Is that a yes you have a
real reputation as sort of a party school. People from California came
over here. I didn't want to study too hard. Was that?
Some some truth to it. But
I don't I don't give a lot of credence to the basis on which those some
magazines used to determine whether or not you're a party school. one of
the things that argues against that is the fact that most of our students
were commuter students. Most of them worked of the commuter students. Many
of them worked full time. This was God for most students this was not a
party situation. They were like much like I did fighting and clawing to
get through school on their own. But I'm sure there was a little partying
going on because indeed we did have students from other states and, and we
had them, fairly large dorm situation and but we didn't deserve that
recognition for that designation.
You said you had a couple other stories, you wanted to be sure. And tell
us, you know, I didn't need these notes really. Um,
one of the things that
I remember, um,
most about her is she was the fact that I
I had the opportunity to work with people like Gilbert, Katie, Jim
Cressman
a little bit about those people who was Gilbert, Gilbert Katie was the
financial vice president. He was kind of a kind of a thorny character. But
um, really a good man,
Jim Cressman, I don't know how to describe him. He was, he'd been here
forever. A student here. Um, very much a party led the fight to become a
university or was one of the leaders. And he was, in fact, I guess you
could say he led the fight.
Well, he was called, I believe at that time director of university
relations. So when I came I took away his title, but we got along fine.
And
um, other people like Dean smith and bob Ellison on joe spring Don dots
George Morel
Georgia was a student here was purchasing agent while I was here. He, he's
, it's all the issue. Can you think of any particular stories thomas
you've heard about thomas.
Well, al thomas was
gee, I don't know how long it had been at the university or when it came
a long long time. What did he do? He was registrar
and
um
maybe something else before that I don't I don't know. But we at one point
in my no I don't claim any part in it and I disclaim any part in it, we
moved him to out of the registrar's office and he became I think that the
title we gave him was Director of archives and he did a really good job of
maintaining the and it's and fixing up the university's history, the
documents that we had. Um
those are O. And K. Damage.
Her husband was a former Grady. Gammage of former president. She had been
here since he became president. How did you work with her? Well she was we
had her working in the area of development and she was a major contact
with people in the community who could be financially supportive of a S. U.
What was she like?
Oh a very nice lady. Um
How best would I describe it? She was,
well she was considered the first lady of the university even as other
first ladies came along. Um
She was good with very good with people and uh extreme dedicated to the
extreme to a S. U.
One of the, you know how how are we going on time? Okay one of the one of
the other things, another thing that I enjoy that's completely different
than what we've been talking about. Um
Was the opportunity for me because of my position and my responsibilities
to work with
to know and to work with people like Barry Goldwater and uh um Sandra Day
O'Connor. Um
how did you work with them? Tell me any stories about anything that you
did with Goldwater? We were we had been working for years. I think it
started long before I came on a Goldwater chair.
He and his friends in the community were accumulating
um $1 million dollars for a chair. Well that was great. That was really
important for issue because at that time we didn't have endowed chairs.
It's different now university of doing a much better job of raising that
kind of money.
But that because they were doing that. We had,
I often was with the President, had
dinner with Barry and his friends
which,
well Dean smith would know. There's a very, very interesting experience
because
Barry and his brother and Harry Rosenzweig and the other people who he
associated with were pretty colorful characters and some of the things,
some of the things that you know, they related about early phoenix history
was pretty remarkable to me not knowing that much about it. But
barry also um
um wanted to, well I remember once we were in his home up on mountain. He
, I've forgotten the function. It wasn't just my wife and I we were part
of a group but we Betsy and I were admiring his artwork and he has had a
splendid collection. Unbelievable
most of it.
Um
indian related
ah early Arizona related.
But he he took the time to tell us about various pieces, you know, just
the two of us. And that was really impressive to me.
Um
The Maestro Rostropovich,
I'm pleased that I I think I'm I can pronounce his name correctly. He was
, well, probably the one of the world's greatest cellists and
one of the great stories. I don't know if it's great, but it's a interest
me every time I think about it. Um he was here,
I got to know some of these people for the reasons that I alluded to with
Barry Goldwater, but also because I was in charge of, not in charge of, I
was responsible for some of the arrangements that went with commencements
where we order awarded honorary degrees to people invited
very important people and I got it because I was responsible. I had that
opportunity to meet them and get them settled and get him going in the
commencement ceremony itself, which the script of which um I wrote.
But
maestro Rostropovich
was here on one occasion
to present and musicians have a, a special word for this, which escapes me.
But it was a session where he was going to here and critique performances
by outstanding young people who are jealous from the state of Arizona. And
we did it. It was to happen in the music, one of the music, the music
building. And it's a building with a
small auditorium and very steep
seeding
and the performance area down below
George,
chairman of the music department.
I'll think of his name. Amberson
of course was very much involved in this and
I was over there to be sure that the maestro was happy and things were
going right. And Amberson, George, Amberson then suddenly had to take part
in a hearing of some kind. There was a university hearing very serious. I
never knew what it was, but he had to be there.
He was going to um,
um, emcee the program.
Well, he turned to me and I said George, I really don't feel comfortable
doing this. I don't feel qualified to do it. I'm, my knowledge of music is
very limited and it's not much about the cello and
um,
like he had to go, I couldn't get out of it. Taki Atsumi Sue me, japanese
cellist on our faculty.
No, no, he wouldn't do it. He,
I guess his concern was that
his accent was pretty heavy. Um, and he was, I think concerned that not
everybody would be able to understand him. So to make it short, I
inherited that. I mean it was, I was stuck with it. It had to go on all
these people are here and there. I am. So I have to introduce Rostropovich
, which wasn't, I didn't mind that so bad. But
then next I had to introduce each perform, each student cellist
and
I had a program to go from. So that wasn't so bad. But then I also had a
course to um,
recite the name of the composition, some of them which were pretty unusual
for me. And then the composer, wow, I was in the, I was,
it was a very trying experience.
And I remember looking up there and, and this audience seeing who I was
talking to and I concluded, well, these are all
music lovers first of all, But then I look up there again and there's Russ
nelson, my boss sitting up there, big smile on his face. He's watching me
down there. He knows that I'm squirming,
but I didn't realize at the time was that those people didn't really care
if I may be mispronounced some composers and they were there to hear
Rostropovich and those students. But anyway, it was very difficult. Then I
go backstage between numbers and I would consult with talking about how to
pronounce this german composer's name and I'm telling you between between
us. It was pathetic. I couldn't quite understand what he was saying, let
alone no in the first place how to pronounce this composer's name. But we
got through it. But the maestro was a charming individual and he performed
for us one night out at the Care center, which was built as a center for
performance by chalice and it was, became the property of the universe is
given to the university by louise, Lincoln care. Um,
I enjoyed that a lot. Were you invited all in the naming of the Cronkite
school? Did you meet walter Cronkite? Yes, I did. That was important to me.
I didn't work as much with him unfortunately for me, but
I did have a chance to meet with him. Talk with him. I was a member of
that faculty but gee you know, ah walter Cronkite,
he's the best.
So that was especially, do you remember how that came about that? He gave
his name to them to the school
someone was and I can't take credit for it. It may have been ah
may have been Lonnie Ostrom. I'm not sure, but someone um
approached him obviously, but I've forgotten the exact connection that
made that even a possibility had something to do with that. Who, of course
, of course he absolutely did.
That's the name I had heard for a long time. But you're correct. He did.
And that's been a great deal. May I ask you,
you mentioned Sandra O'Connor. How did you know? I think we, well, I knew
her in the legislature. She was in the state legislature
and I knew her and we'd have one of the things we do with legislators was
have
special weekends for them. We'd invite them out. We would
make presentations, we would have them for dinner. We'd have them as our
guests at the football game, weed wine them and dine them only. We didn't
, we didn't wind them then we find them. Okay. But I remember
Sandra Day O'Connor
as at one of these functions.
Mm hmm.
Troy come here. She said, I've forgotten the detail of it. But she was
telling me that something ought to be done a little differently. I mean
that was happening right then. She is a very um,
I got the impression from that that she was a very take control
the kind of person. We then we had her here for our anniversary function
as a guest and I got to spend some time with her there and she's just
charming.
one of the other legislators who must have been,
oh yes Burton Barr, the speaker of the house and a very tough customer.
Very tough. We could,
we could, we had no special um,
let's say, how would I say it?
We had no special appeal to Burton barr. He was not unfair. But neither
could we gain any real favor with him. He was a good speaker of the House
but difficult for us to,
as I say, make any gains with. Mhm.
It wasn't an alumni didn't have Children. No, no, none of those things.
Yes,
not much. But my first recollection of alfredo when I came, he was a
student and he was,
let's say, what would I say? Um,
there's an expression I use that's not appropriate for this. But he was,
he was an activist. That'd be really the best word. It was at a time when
the
hispanic, populous stage of population of students was
doing some demonstrating. I mean, they, they wanted, uh, more
opportunities than they felt they were getting. And he was one of them.
And what really,
I didn't know him well, but and what bothered me was that he never
finished his degree here. He was just real close. And I thought, oh my God
, this guy goes down the legislature. You know, he is really powerful and
here we have failed
to make him an alumnus. Really. I mean, he's an alumnus saying that he
took courses here, but it could have been so much better if we had
graduated, had gotten him back here to graduate him. But yeah, he's, it's
been fun to watch his career. And that reminds me talking about the
hispanic demonstrations, I was working with the historical society
recently looking at some old films of demonstrations on campus and one of
them was the group of Hispanics coming to see the president and they were
marching up there to see the president. The president wasn't there?
Someone was standing outside the president. That wasn't, you know, I've
always wondered who that person was saying. You can see the president, but
he's not here today. That's something I would say, but I didn't, I think
that was right before I came. I one of the first things I did, however,
one of the first things I was invited to was a meeting of the president
with such a delegation in the boardroom
and I went. one of the things at that point I believe.
Um and I think Jim Cressman was involved in this.
Um
one of their concerns was that there weren't enough. There are people in
our in our student body and it was true. Ah
But it was
it was something I had never seen before because I grew up
in South Dakota.
No Hispanics.
I think in the town city of Sioux Falls, I think there was one black
person. So I grew up in a super anglo
area of the country and I had no experience with that with the Hispanics
and these were adults and they were angry. So it was unusual meeting but
the president met with him. The president then was Harry New Bern. I think
the other, the incident to which you refer,
I don't I shouldn't say I know it preceded that and it may have been Homer
Durham, but I'm not sure
protected.
What is it about your time here at a. S. U. That you're proudest of
proudest of in the sense of what I may have accomplished or of the
university.
I guess
I would think that
on a personal basis.
I think I'm um proud of the fact that I I was able to relate well with
various segments of the university with faculty students and staff and uh
that
in the most part I earned their trust and confidence.
I couldn't always solve the problem, but sometimes I could help. Were
there any things in your notes that you wanted to tell us that you didn't
get to?
I if
yes, I should say something about
um the three presidents since I was directly I was assistant to when the
new president of coming, they'd say who's that sitting in there and they'd
say that's your assistant, right? That's a tough position to be in. No, it
wasn't like that. Fortunately they all found me acceptable.
But Harry knew burn as I say, I had known a long time. So that was, we
were very close john swallow to of course I had not met before. He was as
I did mention a very good budget person, very sharp individual, But one
who never was
close to or appreciated by faculty and part of that.
Um
There was a, I got the feeling that um well, Homer Durham was very good. I
mean he had good relationships with faculty. I didn't, I knew Homer Durham
but not well. Um I think a lot of faculty expected to see john swallow
standing down by the fountain and they might drop by and they chat awhile
well
at a school as large as this one that's really not workable. Um They, some
faculty would say they can't get to see the president? Well I was right
there and I knew that was not true. Anybody could get to see the president.
You have to make an appointment, but they get to see him. Um, one of the
things that he did not do,
which um, linked to this feeling was that
he didn't get out enough on campus. He concentrated too much on the office
and people off campus. And
I probably, as I look back on it should have done more to correct that I
got him to reserve time on his calendar for that purpose
and he would sometimes get out and you know, if a president or digging in
or vice president or whoever walks into some guy's lab and starts chatting
with the researcher that's really important. I didn't get him out enough
and he was,
I should have forced him probably to improve that situation. Russ Nelson
was followed, Swallow, Swallow was here 10 years. Russ nelson was very
faculty oriented. He was, he was a good administrator, but he was always
almost in many senses more like a faculty member than administrator. He
was
well ex well, therefore well accepted by the faculty and
he was a joy to work with. But he was very
um, let's say, what should I say?
He demanded near perfection
in many things that I did little things that, oh, I always prepare the
board agendas. Well, I'm telling him what I thought was a pretty good
board agenda would come back from him all marked up and I'm a pretty good
writer or was and but there was some there was some backup missing perhaps
or whatever. But he was very demanding that document when it finally got
out was that you couldn't find anything wrong with it. But he was that way
with reports and and so forth. Very uh not demanding in an ugly way but he
had very high expectations. And he had me do some speech writing form
which I enjoyed a great deal. And
he was a he was a good a good person. Good president. I bought on to a
theory. Well before Russ got here, I guess that l thomas advanced in some
of his works. He wrote a history of the university but he also written
other things. But he had a theory
which as I say, I bought onto that A. S. U. Was fortunate in that
through its history. Um Each of the presidents that came along had a, he
had special skills and abilities and traits that made them particularly
valuable at that time in the university development. And
I felt that was true and I I I felt it continued to be true. I can't speak
beyond Russ nelson because I didn't work for The other two presidents.
What was Russ nelson's special skills, his special thing that made him
special and right for his time.
I think at that time we needed,
well he was very much committed to as were all of them for that matter.
But I think he was more effective in, um, his push for quality and faculty
teaching and research
and uh,
he was a very,
I don't believe that.
And he worked well with the board as did the others. But I don't think to
my knowledge, there's no one that had the opportunity to meet Russ nelson
that didn't like him. I could be wrong, but I don't know of any. He's a,
he still lives here in Tempe. Was it unusual for you to stay in this job?
You moved all your other jobs? You said six years was a long time. What
was it about an issue that made you stay here? Well, I, many things I like
the university and the people that I had to work with. Uh,
but
it was primarily the president's. I mean I had to work directly with them
, but it was also very much the school and the acquaintances and working
relationships I had developed. I like to ask you, I retired at the age of
62
and I almost, I did feel guilty about it. I thought, my God, I've got the
best damn job around and I did, I was special assistant to president then
I indeed felt guilty. I mean, Why am I retiring at 62 leaving this place?
Well, my answer to Russ nelson was when I let him know in advance of
course
was, and june pain would appreciate this. I, I said Russ. there are a lot
of snow geese that I haven't photographed
and he enjoyed that. I've done a lot of photography and we've been to
Africa twice on photography trips and, and we've also done a lot of the
first when we first retired. For example, I bought a pickup and a shell.
You know what a shell is just not very deep. And we built a bed in there
and we took off for six months, my wife and you know, there's, there's
another test of a marriage living in the back end of a pickup for six
months. We went up to the west coast and prowled around that part of the
country, did a lot of photography and we loved it. Oh yeah. And then we
had like most people who get addicted to it, then you have to have a
different camping vehicle. Is there anything else in your notes that you
wanted to bring up? Yeah, Well, I'm, I'm thinking of how best to respond
to your question. I think it, I think it would be appropriate to say that
despite what I've said about how difficult it was to get financing and it
was and we never had enough. And maybe maybe that's the way it goes. Maybe
you never have enough. But I think despite those um, restraints and
despite the fact that the enrollment continued to grow and it wasn't, it
wasn't a matter of, uh, universities
working to become larger. I mean it was the fact that we were in this area
and more students were seeking an education where you can't say sorry, you
gotta take them, your state institution. So coping with that kind of
growth, I think it's remarkable that the university actually improved
the quality of its faculty and staff. It was able to attract some
outstanding faculty members and that of course is the most important thing
of all to the university.
Um I think it, it gained in stature in the
the university became, you found it more often listed among the leading
universities in one respect or another in one area, one school or another.
It, in other words, it was making real progress ah despite the
limitations and it was clear it was happening, it was on its way.
Um
one of the things,
one of your questions that I think maybe we've touched on in a way um
um has to do with the worst memory I have of S. U. B.
Well I'm going to
when I was, I needed digress, I'd go down and you know what a bunny trail
is. Yeah. You know, you kind of get off the subject meander around then
you get back to bunny truck when you get back to the question, when I was
working here, I smoked a pipe all the time and in those days you could
smoke even indoors and there's not a problem, nobody died of it. Maybe the
smoker But one of the advantages that you could light up your pipe,
difficult question facing, you know, lift up your pipe, suck down a couple
of times and give you time, you have all the time, you're thinking, how am
I going to answer this? Um, but I don't have that. Um, but the bad time in
a general sense and it's really, um, it's bad
was the fact that ah, this university, I know it's just, I'm getting
redundant but has never had the financial support it deserves.
I'm pleased to see that the, the people here now are doing a much better
job of raising private funds because that's almost where it's at now.
State funding is never going to improve much in Arizona as in or in any
other state. So the university has,
it's have been unable to maintain for instance, a level of faculty
salaries that really is appropriate when you compare this university with
other universities and you know, salaries is that, that's how you get and
hold people and if you don't do it, you lose them. Um, I think we made
some real gains there and I, as I, everything I can see indicates that in
the papers that we're continuing to do so, um,
one band Little Incident, I don't know if this would be a good way to end
it or not. But one of the things that really sticks in my craw is that we
bought off the contract of a basketball coach and I just
that bothered me a great deal because of cost a lot of money. And you know
, we didn't have, there wasn't much money to go around for salary
increases for faculty and staff,
but for whatever reason, we decided that we needed to get rid of this
basketball coach in the middle of the year. We could have lived out the
year, you know, so it was a bad season. But
that was an instance where the president didn't ask my advice. I told him
what I thought about it, but it was too late. It was done. Who was the
president? Who was the coach?
His name was bob something, he was a basketball coach. Do you remember his
name? I don't remember his name.
Um And
Russ didn't consult me. He knew that I was close to the athletic director
and he thought maybe you'd better leave me out of this loop. But I think
it was wrong. Um,
I think it it tends to um,
for one thing, I don't think you ever ought to buy off coach's contract,
but it leans toward overemphasis of athletics. And that is a concern for
me. It gets way out of whack salaries of a coach could be so much more and
they are now so much more than the president
as an or of the most senior full professor. That's wrong. I used to, in my
own mind
justify At least two x sense
a sus athletic program because it was in a very populous area and could
draw large crowds into football games and that paid most of the bills. But
when, when that doesn't work or when you think of places like Washington
state in pullman, you know that you aren't going to sell many football
tickets. They're they're they're out hunting elk and there aren't many of
them in the first place. So They, in order to stay in the PAC 10 for
example, are using money that is could better be used for educational
purposes. Athletic programs are, I don't know. I don't know if there's any
retreat, but they have gone too far. Speaking of athletics, you were here
with frank kush.
Well, it's one of those things where
I put a lot of it out of my mind because it wasn't, it wasn't a happy time.
But
let me give you my impression of parts of it that I remember,
I like frank kush. I haven't seen him lately, but I have seen him a number
of times since I retired.
He was
a good coach. She was,
but
he had become too big for this institution. You know, God, it was frank
frank kush was the most important name you could mention around here. Well
, that's wrong. Um,
and then the,
the incident where he after on the side of my head an athlete. I don't
like that either. I mean, I don't think coaches ought to be hitting
players. Um,
I think it was
probably appropriate. I know he has many loyal followers. Um, and as I say
, I like him and I respect him as a coach Except for that one time
and he was very successful. He was, but it was, I just think of an example
of maybe not personally, but of that sport becoming way too big for the
university. It must have been a difficult decision. Oh yes, it was and it
wasn't,
oh, it wasn't,
it certainly wasn't easy on anyone's part. But I always, um, I suggest
that a president, for example,
you could say the same of other administrative officials. They kind of, in
a sense, they have a punch card
and there are only so many punches on it. And if you take any, if you make
any big moves, especially unpopular ones, there's a punch. There's another
one. If you do nothing, you don't have to worry about the punches. But if
you do anything pretty soon, you're gonna use up the card, do nothing, no
marks against him. But if you do something you're bound to, the more you
do, the more marks you get against you. That's true. Not only are
presidents, but Dean's, I mean,
if you really take a stand that's on a meaningful issue, there are a lot
of people are not going to like that, that little piece of the population
you've lost and then you do something else and you lose another little
piece and pretty soon you don't have any friends. I mean you don't have
any supporters. Well why was it that the decision was made to let frank
kush Well because he here the player
couldn't the president have decided to keep him anyway. Oh yeah. Well
there was more more than hitting the player. There was also a thing about
and I've forgotten how it went. But it had to do with
um and I don't even know the the facts in the case. But it had to do with
uh student athletes earning credits in some funny way off campus.
Oh yes there was more to it than just hitting the student.
But it was not. I remember them. I remember frank's last game and they got
carried them off on their shoulders and you know, it was really a
momentous occasion to say the least. And it must have been I would think
in the president's office difficult time. Were you involved in some of
that?
I was more in that time
I guess. Nobody,
nobody asked me what I thought on that subject. one time, John Suada said
to me I shouldn't, no I shouldn't say that in a way in a
I don't know exactly how he said it but he offered me the opportunity to
have run the athletic program and I said no I don't he may not have been
serious but I objected nonetheless.
But I on the other hand, I never missed a football game while I was here
and I enjoy athletics, it's just a little too professional.
What kind of advice do you give young people today that are just starting
off choosing their careers? Oh well you'd have to get two or three more
rolls of film probably to do that. No, I think briefly and I'll just think
of some things that it's not certainly
the works. But
I think clearly
high school graduates now must go on to school somewhere. It could be a
trade school, whatever. I don't
I mean if you are if you can do the work, if you are academically
qualified, you've got to do it in this day and age without some post high
school degree. You're really disadvantaged seriously, much more than a few
years, some few years ago now, everybody, you know, everybody everybody's
got a degree, everybody's going to school. Uh So they've got to do that, I
don't think and one of the things that this is going to, most people are
gonna think I'm crazy or they won't won't agree with me. But
I think a lot of um Might consider the military service 1st.
Um Why? Because I guess for two reasons. one
some students need a little more maturity perhaps or would be better off
with it. Um Also those services will help you pay your educational bills.
So if finance is a problem, that's one way to do it. Um
I don't think that
and I don't know how I can't speak for them, but I don't think any student
should feel uh any commuter students should feel as in any way a second
class students. Um
A. S. U. Has always been a commuter school. Um I don't know what the
numbers are right now, but I do know that when I was here
very large proportion of students worked to pay their way, some of them
full time. Um our graduation rate didn't look good. I mean we didn't
finish as many kids in four years. Well gee that's pretty understandable.
They were carrying full loads. They were doing other things with their
lives that made that going to school possible.
Um
There are some people point out some drawbacks. I mean you're not a part
of not living on campus, you're missing some things. But uh those are some
of the choices you have to make.
But I think that one of the things that I've I've in the past when I
talked to students,
I don't know if I impressed anybody or if I even made it clear, but I
think students have a great responsibility. Um no matter where they're at
what kind of school to seek out and pursue all the resources that are
there for them. They need to persist. Uh They need to talk to faculty and
instructors,
they need to they need to use the library more than is absolutely required
, um,
advisers and student organizations, all those things, they've got to
pursue them actively. You can get by without doing that. Nobody's going to
force those
in most cases, they're not going to force them on you and you just, you're
missing a whole lot if you don't work at it yourself. I mean, you're, the
quality of your education would be a lot different if you work at it. If
you just say, well, I'm, you know, I'm gonna make it, we go and get the
class every time and passed the course, sure you get a degree. But it's uh
in a way, it's like what I did in my early years, so I just met the
requirements and got it done.
And that's not the way that's not the best way.
Anything else that you wanted to tell us that? I didn't ask you.
Oh, I can't think of anything right now. Um,
as I glanced at my notes, I think I've touched on most things. I would
only say that I appreciate the opportunity to be included in this project.
Thank you for coming down and spending the time withus