WEBVTT 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:05.717 and pam. The tape is rolling. We're two seconds in. Okay. The first thing 00:00:05.750 --> 00:00:11.177 I always want to do is identify on the tape that today is. What is this 00:00:11.210 --> 00:00:18.037 Tuesday january the 24th of 2000 and six. And I'm pam Stephenson doing the 00:00:18.070 --> 00:00:23.477 interview. Manny Garcia is our photographer and we're doing a an interview 00:00:23.510 --> 00:00:27.806 for the living history video project of the Arizona State University 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:33.506 retirees association. We are at the visitor information center at rural 00:00:33.539 --> 00:00:38.037 road and Apache boulevard. Um I would like to let you introduce yourself 00:00:38.070 --> 00:00:46.070 and give us your full name. I'm ladd Ef core junior. Um 00:00:46.229 --> 00:00:51.076 It's my proper name, my father and I bear the same name and I guess with 00:00:51.109 --> 00:00:57.137 full name my middle name is Finch, but I am a junior proudly. Why don't 00:00:57.170 --> 00:01:00.137 you tell me where you were born? And when you were born, was born in 00:01:00.170 --> 00:01:07.417 phoenix september 26th 1936. Uh And grew up in Avondale. My mother and 00:01:07.450 --> 00:01:12.967 father were grade school teachers. They had, my father went to a. S. U. In 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:19.676 1928 and 29 for his first degree. When a two year degree was made him 00:01:19.709 --> 00:01:26.486 eligible to teach, did his practice teaching at the rural school on what 00:01:26.519 --> 00:01:30.926 really should be called rural school road because that's why rural road 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:37.486 was named rural road. And he then began teaching at in the Kyron schools 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:42.936 where he met my mother, she had both had gone to phoenix union high school 00:01:42.969 --> 00:01:47.546 but she had then gone to uh what was then called Redlands college now, the 00:01:47.579 --> 00:01:52.206 University of Redlands for her teaching certificate. My father then 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:57.016 returned to a S. U. Subsequently to do his third year when that was 00:01:57.049 --> 00:02:01.956 required for a degree I think in the early thirties. And then he got his 00:02:01.989 --> 00:02:08.467 bachelor's in 1936. My parents moved after they were married in 1931 to to 00:02:08.500 --> 00:02:13.247 Wickenburg where my older brother was born. He actually was also born in 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:19.527 phoenix, but they lived in Wickenburg. And then the year I was born my 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:26.617 parents moved to to Avondale and that's where I grew up in, where they 00:02:26.650 --> 00:02:30.816 continued their professional life for the rest of their careers. Just for 00:02:30.849 --> 00:02:35.916 a little background uh where your parents were also born, 00:02:35.949 --> 00:02:39.936 neither of my parents were born here. My mother moved here when she was 00:02:39.969 --> 00:02:46.057 one year old in 198, so it was still territorial days and she grew up in 00:02:46.090 --> 00:02:52.566 Phoenix. My father was the next to the youngest of 13 Children. Um And 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:58.136 they moved here in stages from central texas. A little town called Iola 00:02:58.169 --> 00:03:05.386 texas. Beginning in about 1910 1911 my father moved here to stay when he 00:03:05.419 --> 00:03:10.946 was still a youngster With his mother and father moved to Peoria. 1st 00:03:10.979 --> 00:03:15.707 Glendale and into Peoria In about 1914, 00:03:15.740 --> 00:03:21.057 After, after it was a state. Right, we'll talk a little bit about your 00:03:21.090 --> 00:03:24.906 growing up years, you grew up in Avondale, what was Avondale like then 00:03:24.939 --> 00:03:30.517 very much Avondale was very much a migrant labor community heavily. 00:03:30.550 --> 00:03:38.277 Hispanic with strong sense of itself as an agricultural community. I can't 00:03:38.310 --> 00:03:43.337 begin to estimate how many people, but not many actually, the town when I 00:03:43.370 --> 00:03:49.397 was yet a very small child, it was called Cold Water. And when it came 00:03:49.430 --> 00:03:53.856 time to get a post office, the locals thought cold water sounded a little 00:03:53.889 --> 00:03:59.606 hick I guess and named the post office for a ranch, Avondale ranch, which 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:04.696 was one of the ranches in the area. We lived first in town at a home. My 00:04:04.729 --> 00:04:10.696 father and a cousin of mine chauncey core uh built right in the center of 00:04:10.729 --> 00:04:18.007 town telephone. I remember it clearly because the same phone at the school 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:24.967 was the phone in our home, the number was 516 and it rang both places. uh 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:31.207 and that was in the 40s and then in the late 40s my my parents bought a 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:39.106 farm at the corner of Desert Road and Van Buren and we moved 00:04:39.139 --> 00:04:45.056 2/3 of a prisoner of war barracks from Papago Park. The old German 00:04:45.089 --> 00:04:52.656 prisoner of war camp, uh, to constitute our home. And we, my, my parents 00:04:52.689 --> 00:04:57.087 and again, my cousin chauncey and others built that home where we then 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:02.306 they then lived until they retired. I went to high school in litchfield 00:05:02.339 --> 00:05:08.387 park. There was no high school in Avondale um litchfield park then too was 00:05:08.420 --> 00:05:14.717 very small, a company town really for Goodyear farms And the high school 00:05:14.750 --> 00:05:22.567 was small, about 200 students all together. I graduated from Lakeville 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:30.426 High in 1954 and uh went to n au, then called Arizona State College, 00:05:30.459 --> 00:05:35.937 Flagstaff 00:05:35.970 --> 00:05:43.346 luke Air Force Base was there through all of the war years. As a child on 00:05:43.379 --> 00:05:50.637 our farm Probably in about 19 in the, in the 1940s, uh, I saw a jet 00:05:50.670 --> 00:05:56.106 airplane before it was ever publicly disclosed that such things existed 00:05:56.139 --> 00:06:03.106 And the, what is now the called, I guess the phoenix Goodyear airfield was 00:06:03.139 --> 00:06:11.139 the litchfield Naval Air Station. Uh, they're on near highway 80 in, in, 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:18.327 in what is now a good year, paul W litchfield was an interesting force in 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:23.906 that era. He first began 00:06:23.939 --> 00:06:29.496 activities in Arizona with Goodyear farms and what is now Okoto near 00:06:29.529 --> 00:06:35.486 Chandler because they, in the first World War they couldn't find uh long 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:39.856 enough strands of cotton, long staple cotton, which was called Egyptian 00:06:39.889 --> 00:06:44.697 cotton because North Africa was not available. And so he said, find me a 00:06:44.730 --> 00:06:49.096 place like Egypt and will go grow cotton there. So, beginning there and 00:06:49.129 --> 00:06:55.906 then moving out to the west side, they began, what was first just Goodyear 00:06:55.939 --> 00:06:59.947 tire and rubber companies farms and then created subsidiaries, Goodyear 00:06:59.980 --> 00:07:04.127 farms and then Goodyear aircraft in the Second World war, which was 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:10.286 adjacent to the litchfield Naval Air station and uh, then the wigwam and 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.937 all of the things that went with that. So that evolution was very much 00:07:14.970 --> 00:07:19.996 part of my life as, as actually Goodyear was created. The town of Goodyear 00:07:20.029 --> 00:07:25.207 was created overnight in the second World war when many people were 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:30.647 brought from Akron Ohio, the headquarters of Goodyear tire and rubber to, 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:36.327 to do, to build blimps. Uh, it in the Goodyear area, you were pretty young 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:40.056 during those war years, but do you remember what it was like throwing out 00:07:40.089 --> 00:07:46.577 there quite vividly and two things I guess come to mind. Um, there was an 00:07:46.610 --> 00:07:52.067 italian prisoner of war camp out in our area. I don't recall exactly where 00:07:52.100 --> 00:08:00.100 it was, but it was in the litchfield road um, and olive area and J. O 00:08:01.089 --> 00:08:07.486 combs, a member of the Avondale school board and standard oil distributor 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:13.127 took heating oil out to the, to the prisoner of war camp and I would go 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:18.996 with him. Uh, and I guess my most vivid memory of that was to realize I 00:08:19.029 --> 00:08:26.606 was here with the enemy because we sang songs in school about the Italy 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:33.077 the enemy mostly about Hitler but Mussolini as well. And here were, these 00:08:33.110 --> 00:08:37.677 look to me like adults, they were obviously young men Who were lonely and 00:08:37.710 --> 00:08:44.667 who who taught me to count to 10 in Italian and probably most memorably uh 00:08:44.700 --> 00:08:52.307 carved for me a crash that they used in the christmas season Sangha Desta 00:08:52.340 --> 00:08:57.157 Fidelis with tears streaming down their eyes and then they gave me the 00:08:57.190 --> 00:09:05.190 crash. So it was quite moving. The other memory I have was of the a 00:09:05.590 --> 00:09:11.667 caregiver and later the wife of the editor of our weekly newspaper. She 00:09:11.700 --> 00:09:16.626 had come to the United States from Germany and the 30's Eugene Ely was the 00:09:16.659 --> 00:09:22.096 editor and he was paralyzed from the neck down. Uh, and uh needed 00:09:22.129 --> 00:09:27.116 assistance at all times. So his 00:09:27.149 --> 00:09:32.346 caregiver and later wife Emmy, it was his was came from Germany to be his 00:09:32.379 --> 00:09:40.379 caregiver. Her brother was a luftwaffe pilot who was, who was captured and 00:09:43.120 --> 00:09:49.136 was put in the prisoner of war camp at Papago park. So here again singing 00:09:49.169 --> 00:09:53.937 these songs and knowing that Hitler was the enemy, I would go with me to 00:09:53.970 --> 00:10:01.697 visit her brother who was obviously a family member and hardly looked the 00:10:01.730 --> 00:10:09.626 role of his evil enemy that we saw. I also remember the speeches at the 00:10:09.659 --> 00:10:15.146 time but vaguely at the time of Pearl Harbor president Roosevelt and uh 00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:21.376 and the loss of a very favorite cust of mine who was, who died in France 00:10:21.409 --> 00:10:25.417 in the war. So it was that mixture of things went ahead. I guess One other 00:10:25.450 --> 00:10:31.506 thing, I remember two other things, I remember the victory gardens that we 00:10:31.539 --> 00:10:36.386 planted on the school grounds. They plowed up one of the, one of the 00:10:36.419 --> 00:10:43.006 playgrounds and we all had little plots that in which we grew vegetables 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:49.337 and and another very vivid memory. I 00:10:49.370 --> 00:10:56.756 went to school one day to discover that my classmate buddy ito, the family 00:10:56.789 --> 00:11:03.207 that lived on the farm next to us was gone And no one would really tell us 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:08.697 while they were gone. We all now know they were taken As the Japanese 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:14.486 Americans were incarcerated in 1943. But all we knew was that Buddy and 00:11:14.519 --> 00:11:20.657 his brothers and sisters and the whole family were simply gone. And it was 00:11:20.690 --> 00:11:25.346 years later I I did hear of them because they moved back to Arizona, they 00:11:25.379 --> 00:11:30.807 lost the farm that they moved back to Arizona. And At my father's funeral 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:38.547 in 1991. Um, several members of the family came including including Buddy 00:11:38.580 --> 00:11:45.016 . I did later learned. My father fought very hard to try to keep them from 00:11:45.049 --> 00:11:49.707 being incarcerated but unsuccessfully 00:11:49.740 --> 00:11:57.740 story. You say you actually, I've heard a lot about the path part 00:11:57.809 --> 00:12:02.986 we visited. I visited there and of course there's the infamous story that 00:12:03.019 --> 00:12:08.596 is based in fact, although it's been embellished, I'm sure of the two in 00:12:08.629 --> 00:12:15.026 prisoners who had a map that showed salt river and the tunnel they built a 00:12:15.059 --> 00:12:21.417 canoe and tunneled out under on the grounds that they could run down to 00:12:21.450 --> 00:12:28.366 the river and canoe away. Only to learn once they got there that Arizona 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:33.396 rivers often have no water and they were at least as I understand the 00:12:33.429 --> 00:12:38.707 story were captured a few miles away. Their canoe was still on the river 00:12:38.740 --> 00:12:43.846 but I did actually visit it, remember what it looks like. Yes, it was 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:47.557 pretty good size. It's in, it's on the site where the national guard 00:12:47.590 --> 00:12:53.947 facility is now and the the barracks were 100 ft long that I know. Uh, and 00:12:53.980 --> 00:12:57.876 it looked like a military installation, looked very much like luke? Air 00:12:57.909 --> 00:13:02.467 Force Base looked at the time. My father, I guess had a penchant for these 00:13:02.500 --> 00:13:09.537 barracks because with the war and the Goodyear aircraft growing, which was 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:14.287 in the elementary school district in Avondale, they had a cute space 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:20.907 shortages. And my father went down to the Air Force base at marana and 00:13:20.940 --> 00:13:27.236 bought several of those barracks and moved them as school buildings to 00:13:27.269 --> 00:13:34.096 Avondale. Uh, right, right after the war. So it looked at it, the prisoner 00:13:34.129 --> 00:13:40.986 of war camp looked like a military base, just long barracks and I don't 00:13:41.019 --> 00:13:47.957 frankly recall any and major fence and there were fences around it, but it 00:13:47.990 --> 00:13:52.957 wasn't like a prison fence. And the, and, and I know, I guess the german 00:13:52.990 --> 00:13:56.516 prisoners did. I know the italian prisoners went out every day to work in 00:13:56.549 --> 00:14:03.106 the fields, in the agricultural fields. Mm hmm. Mhm. As you were growing 00:14:03.139 --> 00:14:07.907 up then, your parents were teachers obviously. Were you a good student? Uh 00:14:07.940 --> 00:14:15.577 , when your father is principal of the school, you are a good student. I 00:14:15.610 --> 00:14:22.407 was a pretty good student. Yeah, I was, I I was active in student politics 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:29.876 all my years, but I was, I was, I was uh salutatorian of my high school 00:14:29.909 --> 00:14:36.937 class and my lifelong friend uh Berlin. Soto Marino was the valedictorian 00:14:36.970 --> 00:14:42.927 in our high school and uh, again and she went to college also in Flagstaff. 00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:48.366 So but I I was I was pretty good student, What was your favorite subject 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:55.807 ? I always loved history and uh and and and social social science, social 00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:02.356 issues. Uh huh. Yeah, I just, I was intrigued by the window it gave into 00:15:02.389 --> 00:15:10.389 the world but I tended to be captured by teachers I liked. So I had a math 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:14.807 teacher, keith Weston high school that intrigued me and I got very much 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:21.817 interested in that and a my spanish teacher, Francis Ibarra Amavisca, she 00:15:21.850 --> 00:15:27.447 was just one of the greatest people. And so I got pretty deeply involved 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:31.006 in in spanish and studying spanish. 00:15:31.039 --> 00:15:38.606 What is a boy growing up? What did you plan to do? 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:45.427 Um had been involved politically on campus politics but also in some 00:15:45.460 --> 00:15:51.317 larger issues and I plan to go to law school when I went to college, I had 00:15:51.350 --> 00:15:57.287 the good fortune of of receiving a Phelps dodge scholarship and in the in 00:15:57.320 --> 00:16:03.106 the fifties that was quite significant, Phelps dodge. Company gave two 00:16:03.139 --> 00:16:08.927 scholarships a year to each of the three Arizona universities and the 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:14.776 universities awarded that they were not only full value, they provided 00:16:14.809 --> 00:16:20.026 tuition room and board uh to the schools, but they were they were quite 00:16:20.059 --> 00:16:28.059 prestigious. And so every year The company would take all 24 of us before 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:35.677 Years, Times two on each of the campuses to one of their facilities and We 00:16:35.710 --> 00:16:40.827 went to a hoe and went to Bisbee Douglas and Clinton Morency and actually 00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:46.167 went to the reduction plant in El Paso one year. And it was through that 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:51.746 that I really kind of decided in meeting with other of the Phelps dodge 00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:58.437 scholars that I would go to law school. And then I thought potentially of 00:16:58.470 --> 00:17:04.217 a political career just because there were things I was doing, but my mind 00:17:04.250 --> 00:17:08.467 was changed. You know, one of those burning bush moments that we should 00:17:08.500 --> 00:17:12.236 all be aware of those of us who have the privilege of living in 00:17:12.269 --> 00:17:19.836 universities. Uh in a sophomore course I took in sociology and I was so by 00:17:19.869 --> 00:17:27.367 a brilliant professor named ed walker who had come to N. A. U. For his 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:31.306 health, had been a faculty member at stanford and lost a lung and had to 00:17:31.339 --> 00:17:38.006 live in a high, dry climate. I was just so taken with the whole world of 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:42.707 of intellectual life. I've never even thought of graduate school, really 00:17:42.740 --> 00:17:48.687 didn't know what it was, but that changed my view. And I've been by my 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:53.326 sophomore year into my sophomore year and decided I wanted to go into an 00:17:53.359 --> 00:17:58.276 academic career. Mhm. And what field were you going to do that in 00:17:58.309 --> 00:18:06.097 political science? Which is what I did interestingly ed in this. Uh 00:18:06.130 --> 00:18:12.306 Flagstaff had 800 students when I went as a freshman and it was openly 00:18:12.339 --> 00:18:17.637 avowedly a teacher's college. So very few students, I think only five of 00:18:17.670 --> 00:18:23.306 us in my graduating class took a B. A. Everyone else was in a Bs in 00:18:23.339 --> 00:18:30.826 education program. And there were about five or 6 of us who had been 00:18:30.859 --> 00:18:37.907 students of ed walker who went on to academic careers. I couldn't major in 00:18:37.940 --> 00:18:42.417 political science, but I majored in social science and then went on and 00:18:42.450 --> 00:18:46.717 did my graduate study in political science. So what were your thoughts 00:18:46.750 --> 00:18:54.750 then of what your career would be? I was so moved by the power of uh 00:18:55.509 --> 00:19:00.746 intellectual exploration that I absolutely completely planned to be a 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:04.506 faculty member. I 00:19:04.539 --> 00:19:09.086 as a young person, you don't know much about the way universities are 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:13.566 organized. So the idea of academic administration, it was not something 00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:19.377 that I just that even occurred to me it was to graduate school and to a 00:19:19.410 --> 00:19:25.806 faculty position that I that I that I intended to go. Mhm. So where did 00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:31.336 you go after any? I went to Washington University in ST louis. That was at 00:19:31.369 --> 00:19:36.367 Ed walker's suggestion. He'd grown up in Missouri. Uh I knew I had some 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:42.917 gaps because the program while qualitative at N. A. U. Was not a full 00:19:42.950 --> 00:19:47.246 program that would uh 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:53.627 we're talking about when you went to graduate. I am can I applied to 00:19:53.660 --> 00:19:58.947 Washington University at at ted walker's suggestion? He'd I had grown up 00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:02.697 in Missouri, he knew the university well and he knew there were some gaps 00:20:02.730 --> 00:20:08.437 in my preparation simply because the program was more limited. I had 00:20:08.470 --> 00:20:12.207 already decided where I wanted to apply in every one of the universities 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:18.556 to which I applied were in the west. That was in an era by the way, when 00:20:18.589 --> 00:20:23.217 back east was meant anything east of Albuquerque and well, I don't think 00:20:23.250 --> 00:20:27.157 we were overly parochial, they just didn't think about it. It turned out 00:20:27.190 --> 00:20:32.816 to be an absolutely splendid choice for me. I got a a graduate teaching 00:20:32.849 --> 00:20:37.947 assistantship there, which was helpful. It provided me tuition and a a 00:20:37.980 --> 00:20:44.097 modest but nevertheless functional stipend I could live with. And very 00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:52.086 importantly, the um chairman of the department who who who granted me 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:57.046 admission and recruited me, became a very significant part of my life 00:20:57.079 --> 00:21:02.207 after that. His name was Tom Elliott. He was the grandson of the great 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:08.086 Charles w Eliot of Harvard. And he had himself grown up in the Harvard 00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:13.086 environment and in the congress had been actually a young lawyer with 00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:17.367 Frances Perkins in the new deal when the Social Security Act was written 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:23.976 and then had gone on into an academic career Tom later became Chancellor 00:21:24.009 --> 00:21:29.157 of Washington University after I had finished my PhD and was on the 00:21:29.190 --> 00:21:35.516 faculty. And it was he who uh lured me into academic administration at a 00:21:35.549 --> 00:21:40.607 very young age. So it was not only a very good university with a very 00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:47.506 strong department of political science, but a and experience. I stayed 18 00:21:47.539 --> 00:21:50.677 years after I went to Washington University and experience. That was very 00:21:50.710 --> 00:21:56.907 , very good for me personally and professionally. 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:03.417 Um So you were there through the 60s and I was, I took my master's degree 00:22:03.450 --> 00:22:11.450 in Russian studies uh From 1958 to 1960. I uh I finished my PhD in 1960 00:22:13.049 --> 00:22:19.907 for in american politics, specializing on the president 1964. Excuse me, 00:22:19.940 --> 00:22:27.256 Did I say 18, Not that old, 1964. But I've had an interesting little 00:22:27.289 --> 00:22:33.387 interlude which affirmed my interest in university life and probably cast 00:22:33.420 --> 00:22:40.036 my interest in academic administration more clearly in my own mind. After 00:22:40.069 --> 00:22:44.927 I had done all of my coursework for my PhD, I had taken my comprehensive, 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:49.726 had taken one of the two languages that one had to have in order to get a 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:55.437 PhD. At that time. I became I was research assistant then, no longer 00:22:55.470 --> 00:23:00.976 actually teaching in the as a teaching assistant. And uh we were doing a 00:23:01.009 --> 00:23:06.556 study of state politics in the public schools with something about which 00:23:06.589 --> 00:23:11.546 there's not been much work done before. Tom Elliott and some very good 00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:15.917 people from the Maxwell School in Syracuse had gotten a major grant from 00:23:15.950 --> 00:23:20.127 the Carnegie Foundation to do this study. And we were doing a comparative 00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:26.576 study of Missouri Illinois and michigan and I was assigned michigan to go 00:23:26.609 --> 00:23:31.627 do the field work to interview all of the key people, the Superintendent 00:23:31.660 --> 00:23:34.967 of public instruction, the chairman of the House and Senate appropriations 00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:40.756 committees and education so on. And so I was to go up there for a month or 00:23:40.789 --> 00:23:45.586 two to do the interviewing well, as a pipsqueak graduate student trying to 00:23:45.619 --> 00:23:49.016 get appointments with these people in advance. It was just impossible I'd 00:23:49.049 --> 00:23:52.927 call and they wouldn't call back. And so I finally decided, well, I'll 00:23:52.960 --> 00:24:00.086 just go up there. So in february Of 1961, I went to Lansing with plans to 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:06.836 stay a month, arrived on a Tuesday night, uh checked into the Jack Tar 00:24:06.869 --> 00:24:12.016 hotel right on the main plaza next to the capital. Lights were all blazing 00:24:12.049 --> 00:24:15.867 in the capital. I walked into the Senate Chambers in the House Chamber is 00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:20.947 not a soul. About 88 or 83 walked into the governor's office, which was on 00:24:20.980 --> 00:24:25.066 the same floor and Mennen Williams, G. Mennen Williams, who had been 00:24:25.099 --> 00:24:29.937 governor for 14 years, had just been appointed by President Kennedy to be 00:24:29.970 --> 00:24:35.627 undersecretary of state And a 34 year old named John Swainson double 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:40.546 amputee and the Battle of the Bulge of the Second World War had been 00:24:40.579 --> 00:24:46.637 elected governor. The last two terms governor. Last two term period in the 00:24:46.670 --> 00:24:50.467 in michigan's history and the pictures, Mennen Williams, pictures are all 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:54.056 still on the wall. He had just left and here, this young governor had just 00:24:54.089 --> 00:24:58.667 come in, no one in the outer office. I walked into the inner office and 00:24:58.700 --> 00:25:03.677 here was this young governor flanked by a secretary on each side. I just 00:25:03.710 --> 00:25:08.526 brashly walked in and introduce myself. And he asked what I was doing 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:11.266 there and I told him, he said I could use someone like that on my staff. 00:25:11.299 --> 00:25:16.717 And I said, I'll join it free of charge. And by friday I was assistant to 00:25:16.750 --> 00:25:21.887 the governor part time, nope with an office. And uh, it was actually 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:28.687 helping him write a speech for for a major convention. He was speaking to 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:33.377 that weekend in grand rapids. So I stayed six months by that time. By the 00:25:33.410 --> 00:25:35.756 way, all these people were calling me that I was trying to set 00:25:35.789 --> 00:25:41.197 appointments with, did did the study wrote what turned out to be a chapter 00:25:41.230 --> 00:25:46.137 and went back to ST louis to complete my work and finish my other 00:25:46.170 --> 00:25:50.336 requirements except for the dissertation, my other language and so on. I 00:25:50.369 --> 00:25:54.986 went back in october with the galleys to just check the quotes and make 00:25:55.019 --> 00:26:01.036 sure everything was in hand. And john john Swinton was the governor's name. 00:26:01.069 --> 00:26:06.086 John said my administrative assistant has just gone to Washington to work 00:26:06.119 --> 00:26:11.627 for a minute. Uh Would you be my administrative assistant? I said john I'm 00:26:11.660 --> 00:26:16.617 25 years old. I'm 10 years younger than anyone else. I'm I live in ST 00:26:16.650 --> 00:26:24.650 louis, I'm a legal resident of Arizona. I drive an MG, you know, in, in 00:26:24.910 --> 00:26:29.697 michigan I said with an Arizona plate on. I said, I can't imagine that 00:26:29.730 --> 00:26:35.447 would work. And he said, no, you hide your car. But I come to work. So I 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:41.756 then worked 14 months for John who was defeated in his bid for reelection 00:26:41.789 --> 00:26:47.887 by George Romney. It was the beginning of that big new era. But it was an 00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:55.347 , it was an extraordinary opportunity for me, including 00:26:55.380 --> 00:27:02.256 in addition to my professional responsibilities as an administrative 00:27:02.289 --> 00:27:07.266 assistant of the governor. I got involved in his reelection campaign And 00:27:07.299 --> 00:27:11.667 was responsible for northern Michigan and the Upper Peninsula. So three or 00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:17.127 4 afternoons a week, we'd take off in a small plane and go up and make our 00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:24.667 way through. It was kind of magical towns way north. Uh, it was in that as 00:27:24.700 --> 00:27:31.967 a result of that experience, I had many opportunities to to stay in that 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:39.597 political life both in michigan. There was even a movement which I never 00:27:39.630 --> 00:27:44.107 really probe. So I don't know how serious it was to get me to run for 00:27:44.140 --> 00:27:47.536 Congress in one of the districts where there were some people, but more 00:27:47.569 --> 00:27:51.056 importantly, there were some things in Washington, including the newly 00:27:51.089 --> 00:27:55.586 created department of it was then called Housing and Home Finance Agency 00:27:55.619 --> 00:28:00.467 was about to become Housing and urban development. And I, uh, it was clear 00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:04.887 to me that was not what I wanted to do. I had a chance to experience it. I 00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:11.367 enjoyed it, but I was really far more interested in in university life and 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:15.207 fortunately for me at the same time 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:19.697 tom Elliott, this department Chairman of Political science who recruited 00:28:19.730 --> 00:28:26.006 me now almost three years later had become Chancellor of the university 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:30.986 and he called me right after the election, reminded me of a Blinken is 00:28:31.019 --> 00:28:38.516 great story about losing that. It uh too big to hurts too much to laugh 00:28:38.549 --> 00:28:45.316 and he's too big to cry. So and offered me half time job as assistant to 00:28:45.349 --> 00:28:51.187 him as chancellor while I came home and finished my dissertation, started 00:28:51.220 --> 00:28:56.836 and finished my dissertation. So I did that. I went back In January of 00:28:56.869 --> 00:28:59.806 1963 00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:05.576 and over the next year and a half finished my PhD and worked as assistant 00:29:05.609 --> 00:29:09.717 to the Chancellor. Did you keep up your connections with Arizona at that 00:29:09.750 --> 00:29:13.847 time you mentioned you still have the license plate. I did. I came out 00:29:13.880 --> 00:29:19.417 every christmas my mother was an inveterate party giver. We had a huge 00:29:19.450 --> 00:29:27.450 farmhouse and so all of them family and friends and so on would come. We'd 00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:32.387 have a big party at the house between christmas and New Year's. I came to 00:29:32.420 --> 00:29:39.276 hike regularly. I've always, I've never been able to not hike in Arizona 00:29:39.309 --> 00:29:43.967 so I would come at least once a year and and go somewhere. So I did, I 00:29:44.000 --> 00:29:50.486 kept ties, although when you get so immersed in something, my, my life 00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:56.957 really moved pretty, it moved substantially to ST louis and uh, And that 00:29:56.990 --> 00:30:04.276 did become my home for the 18 years I was there and And you didn't go to 00:30:04.309 --> 00:30:09.907 Washington after all. I did not know I could have changed your life too. 00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:13.306 So you were there during the 60s. I know a lot of campuses had a lot of 00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:19.347 protests and things going on that it was true at Washington University, I 00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:26.746 was as a young faculty member, pretty deeply involved in the civil rights 00:30:26.779 --> 00:30:28.917 movement. 00:30:28.950 --> 00:30:34.726 There were still segregated restaurants in ST louis, including some around 00:30:34.759 --> 00:30:40.387 the campus. I got involved in two ways, I got involved with those who were 00:30:40.420 --> 00:30:46.536 trying in a constructive but forceful way to persuade these owners to to 00:30:46.569 --> 00:30:52.917 integrate their restaurants. And uh Washington University as most was 00:30:52.950 --> 00:30:57.536 pretty lily white at the time. And I got involved in a very constructive 00:30:57.569 --> 00:31:02.707 program to identify and help recruit minority youngsters, mostly black 00:31:02.740 --> 00:31:07.717 youngsters from ST louis into the university, through the use of saturday 00:31:07.750 --> 00:31:12.937 seminars and preparatory things during their, their high school years. So 00:31:12.970 --> 00:31:18.707 I I personally, during that period from 1964, 00:31:18.740 --> 00:31:26.740 After I finished my PhD until 19 69, I was on the faculty, I did 00:31:27.970 --> 00:31:32.457 administrative things I was director of but but but the administrative 00:31:32.490 --> 00:31:36.226 things were always part time as director of international Studies for a 00:31:36.259 --> 00:31:42.066 couple of years, I was Assistant dean of the Graduate school. Um, but and 00:31:42.099 --> 00:31:49.826 on the faculty, I did that combination of things. Um in addition to that, 00:31:49.859 --> 00:31:57.859 I got pretty deeply involved in the the Vietnam War issue as Assistant 00:31:59.630 --> 00:32:05.117 dean of the graduate school. I had a lot of young men coming to talk about 00:32:05.150 --> 00:32:10.947 their desire not to serve in the military as either conscientious 00:32:10.980 --> 00:32:17.187 objectors or those who opposed the war, including some who uh sought to 00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:24.806 leave the country go to Canada as some of them did, and some even who who 00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:29.677 um talked about physically harming themselves, so they would be ineligible 00:32:29.710 --> 00:32:35.417 to go. So it was a wrenching, absolutely wrenching wrenching period. In 00:32:35.450 --> 00:32:40.086 addition to that Washington University, uncharacteristically for such a 00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:48.119 conservative, fairly staid city at the university, in a fairly staid city 00:32:48.130 --> 00:32:56.130 really became the hotbed of some major radical activity. And Um, I was 00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:06.597 fortunate enough in 1969 to be appointed Vice Chancellor. Um, the position 00:33:06.630 --> 00:33:13.467 was a combination of responsibility for all of the professional schools on 00:33:13.500 --> 00:33:16.597 what was called a hilltop campus, Washington University has a medical 00:33:16.630 --> 00:33:18.806 campus, 00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:25.167 the east end of forest Park, a beautiful big public park, and then the 00:33:25.200 --> 00:33:31.006 hilltop campus where all of the non health science endeavors were. And I 00:33:31.039 --> 00:33:35.637 was responsible for all of the professional schools on the hilltop campus 00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:41.967 , Law, engineering, social work, business, etcetera. But I was also 00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:49.187 responsible for the um major non academic non business functions. So 00:33:49.220 --> 00:33:54.526 student affairs, campus life campus police, etcetera, which translated 00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:59.467 very quickly into being Vice chancellor in charge of trouble because we 00:33:59.500 --> 00:34:06.127 had over the period of about two years, a building burned to the ground, 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:14.160 an ROTC building with major federal involvement and prison terms up to 25 00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:20.796 years for some of the protesters, we had Um, buildings occupied and 00:34:20.829 --> 00:34:26.787 buildings damaged one night, $10,000 worth of plate glass was broken out 00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:31.407 of the main library, that kind of thing. And so I got very very deeply 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:39.440 involved in all of that. Mhm. Did you other than protecting the campus 00:34:39.570 --> 00:34:47.570 where you also taking sides? And I was I became convinced that our 00:34:47.949 --> 00:34:53.606 involvement in Vietnam was wrong and I did join not with the radical 00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:58.077 elements but in the electoral process with those who were supporting 00:34:58.110 --> 00:35:06.110 candidates opposed to mr johnson's reelection. So I got pretty active yet. 00:35:06.739 --> 00:35:09.967 Did you ever think about getting more involved in politics again? No, 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:14.767 never have. It's very interesting. I've been asked that all my life, no, 00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:21.367 after my youthful exploration it was nothing more than that and my chance 00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:26.086 which was my chance to experience it in michigan which was a favorable 00:35:26.119 --> 00:35:30.807 experience. So I didn't it wasn't a negative experience. Hi. I knew deep 00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:36.057 down I knew deep down something I discovered the first day I walked onto 00:35:36.090 --> 00:35:39.106 the N. A. U. Campus. 00:35:39.139 --> 00:35:46.506 Um Yeah, I think back to Arizona in the 19 fifties there there were two of 00:35:46.539 --> 00:35:52.626 physical locations in Arizona that had this quite remarkable silver and 00:35:52.659 --> 00:35:57.597 like quality one was the courthouse in Prescott and the other was the N. A. 00:35:57.630 --> 00:36:02.177 U. Campus. The N. A. U. Campus was only that part that is called the old 00:36:02.210 --> 00:36:07.447 campus now and I walked onto that campus and said I'd like to spend my 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:13.967 life at a place like this. And that was before I had really realized my 00:36:14.000 --> 00:36:21.956 interest in academic life. And so that combination of really loving what a 00:36:21.989 --> 00:36:27.657 university is and then having the personal conviction about the value of 00:36:27.690 --> 00:36:34.787 an academic life has, has really defined what I want to do. And has ever 00:36:34.820 --> 00:36:42.046 since, even with the depth of my conviction about the Vietnam war, I did 00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:47.947 not have any interest in going on beyond. I actually got involved in in 00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:53.736 the delegate selection process for the 1968 Convention in Chicago and had 00:36:53.769 --> 00:36:57.086 an opportunity to go and said, no, I don't, I don't really want to do that. 00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:02.506 I want to get the issues up in a constructive way. But I, my life is a 00:37:02.539 --> 00:37:05.577 university that's where I want to stay. That would have been an 00:37:05.610 --> 00:37:11.236 interesting convention to attend. It would have been. Mhm. So it sounds 00:37:11.269 --> 00:37:16.057 like you pretty much made your life there ST louis did did you consider 00:37:16.090 --> 00:37:21.776 coming back to Arizona? I have always loved Arizona. As I say, I've hiked 00:37:21.809 --> 00:37:25.407 here, I always have to have a large family here have come to visit the 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:32.526 family. But I am so I've had the privilege all my life of being so 00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:40.497 immersed where I am, that that's my home and so I didn't hanker to return. 00:37:40.530 --> 00:37:48.530 Ah there were far greater opportunities for working in major universities 00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:54.367 and being a part of shaping the larger agenda. Universities were just 00:37:54.400 --> 00:38:00.057 beginning in that era to connect with the larger issues of society, not 00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:05.787 just with civil rights, but with the economy and the shaping of the 00:38:05.820 --> 00:38:13.820 housing public policies in the area. And that was where I really was 00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:20.106 absorbed. So I didn't, I didn't hanker to return to, to to Arizona. So you 00:38:20.139 --> 00:38:26.376 got your PhD there. And what was that in political science exactly? 00:38:26.409 --> 00:38:31.657 President and Congress, actually, my my my my dissertation was entitled 00:38:31.690 --> 00:38:35.026 the increasing vulnerability of the american governor. There was a period 00:38:35.059 --> 00:38:41.677 of time when american governors were being defeated at abnormally high 00:38:41.710 --> 00:38:48.057 rates when they ran for re election. And uh my my hypothesis, which I 00:38:48.090 --> 00:38:52.537 think was supported by the work I did is that there was this period of 00:38:52.570 --> 00:38:56.967 about 20 or 30 years where they were expected to do a lot more than they 00:38:57.000 --> 00:39:01.807 had the capacity either financial or legal to do. And so people expected 00:39:01.840 --> 00:39:06.517 them to solve things. and they did not, there was a period therefore, 00:39:06.550 --> 00:39:12.767 until Ronald Reagan received a nomination where governors no longer were 00:39:12.800 --> 00:39:17.867 even considered as candidates for president. Uh 00:39:17.900 --> 00:39:24.146 Congressmen, senators were. And uh it was that era. So I that was my study 00:39:24.179 --> 00:39:29.876 and I looked, I did a study over about 50 years Governors re elections. 00:39:29.909 --> 00:39:35.717 And what happened to them. But my primary interest in my teaching was in 00:39:35.750 --> 00:39:42.856 the role of the president and Congress and uh the the realities that are 00:39:42.889 --> 00:39:47.776 so different from the kind of textbook the legislature legislates and the 00:39:47.809 --> 00:39:54.736 executive executes as the evolving nature of those two institutions grew. 00:39:54.769 --> 00:40:00.927 So that's what I thought. I did major courses in policy. I really focused 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:05.796 on undergraduates, that's where I I had my greatest interest got involved 00:40:05.829 --> 00:40:11.376 in creating some, I think rather innovative ways of organizing 00:40:11.409 --> 00:40:18.126 undergraduate courses where for about five years, four of us in different 00:40:18.159 --> 00:40:26.159 fields chose uh an organizing topic like conflict resolution uh in society 00:40:28.809 --> 00:40:35.456 and the same students would take uh the political science course for me, 00:40:35.489 --> 00:40:41.637 the philosophy course from X, uh of course in psychology, from why, of 00:40:41.670 --> 00:40:47.947 course in social behavior from Z. And uh we then would gather all of those 00:40:47.980 --> 00:40:52.787 students into 1/5 course, which was a seminar of those students and the 00:40:52.820 --> 00:40:56.597 five and the five of us are the four of us, pulling them together. So I 00:40:56.630 --> 00:41:01.657 did a fair amount of that and I got pretty deeply involved in some issues 00:41:01.690 --> 00:41:08.736 related to advising undergraduates who hadn't declared a major then, as 00:41:08.769 --> 00:41:13.646 now they tend to be overlooked, they don't get picked up until the 00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:18.416 department takes ownership in them. So I I that's I spent, that's that's 00:41:18.449 --> 00:41:22.907 where I really focused my teaching efforts. What were your goals at that 00:41:22.940 --> 00:41:27.606 time, then we're just going to plan to stay there. I was clearly intrigued. 00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:34.077 First of all, it was a typical to take a faculty position where you get 00:41:34.110 --> 00:41:42.110 your PhD, that's not normally the case and I guess it was uh, it was less 00:41:43.090 --> 00:41:46.427 clear to me than it should have been that my involvement and 00:41:46.460 --> 00:41:50.467 administrative things as assistant to the chancellor. While I was 00:41:50.500 --> 00:41:55.077 finishing, my PhD had 00:41:55.110 --> 00:42:02.626 awakened me to academic administration, Washington University 00:42:02.659 --> 00:42:07.296 was a high quality, unrecognized 00:42:07.329 --> 00:42:12.486 university. Its medical school was recognized around the world, It was 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:17.727 still primarily local Undergraduate and graduate student body. And in the 00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:25.760 10 years From roughly the 16th, during the 60s, It went from 80% of its 00:42:25.949 --> 00:42:30.747 students coming from a 50 mile radius undergraduates two, It moved to a 00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:35.807 national student body and did some really quite remarkable things and I 00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:41.066 was able to be a part of that at the early stages. So I thought it was 00:42:41.099 --> 00:42:45.646 already clear to me. That was interesting. So when it came time after I 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:52.827 finished my PhD to decide on a faculty position, I had to opportunities 00:42:52.860 --> 00:42:57.126 that were, that were intriguing to me. One as a regular faculty member, 00:42:57.159 --> 00:43:00.646 one at Tulane University and one at what was then the University of 00:43:00.679 --> 00:43:04.876 Buffalo, it was becoming, was a private university, becoming the public 00:43:04.909 --> 00:43:08.787 state University of new york at Buffalo. But I decided to stay at 00:43:08.820 --> 00:43:13.997 Washington University, recognizing that if I did, I would more likely 00:43:14.030 --> 00:43:19.606 gravitate to administration and just a pure faculty role. And that is what 00:43:19.639 --> 00:43:26.977 happened As I mentioned in 1969, I was appointed Vice Chancellor. I was 00:43:27.010 --> 00:43:35.010 only 32 years old then. So it really meant in effect abandoning 00:43:35.099 --> 00:43:40.896 my academic life as my central purpose and moving into administration and 00:43:40.929 --> 00:43:45.396 that I continued to teach all my years there and I actually taught most of 00:43:45.429 --> 00:43:50.577 my years when I was president of University of Vermont, but my principal 00:43:50.610 --> 00:43:57.066 endeavor was, was, was my administrative role. 00:43:57.099 --> 00:44:05.099 So how did you happen to go to Vermont? I am um served 00:44:05.889 --> 00:44:13.026 yeah two years as vice chancellor with Tom Elliott, the the fellow who had 00:44:13.059 --> 00:44:18.956 recruited me and then my uh fellow vice chancellor whom I had the highest 00:44:18.989 --> 00:44:22.706 regard for Bill Danforth, he'd been vice Chancellor for medical affairs, 00:44:22.739 --> 00:44:27.296 was named chancellor and I served five years with him and very much 00:44:27.329 --> 00:44:32.836 enjoyed what I was doing, but I was already beginning to think, wouldn't 00:44:32.869 --> 00:44:39.367 it be interesting if there were having watched what we did to transform 00:44:39.400 --> 00:44:45.296 Washington university into a really highly visible competitive place if 00:44:45.329 --> 00:44:50.646 there might be a place or two like that. And and by that time as happens 00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:55.796 in these jobs, I was beginning to be approached by universities to 00:44:55.829 --> 00:44:58.827 consider a presidency. 00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:05.456 And so I, I did, I talked with some, I didn't begin exploring that and, 00:45:05.489 --> 00:45:13.489 And and decided it would be, I was still young, but I was nearing my 40's 00:45:14.739 --> 00:45:17.977 that sometime within the next few years it occurred to me it would be, I 00:45:18.010 --> 00:45:26.010 would be interested in in, in, in being a university president, Vermont uh 00:45:26.309 --> 00:45:32.646 absolutely captivated me. Uh it uh I knew it would be a wonderful place. I 00:45:32.679 --> 00:45:36.727 had three Children by then. Uh it would be a wonderful place for my 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:44.760 Children to grow up. It was a university that had the most unusual set of 00:45:46.219 --> 00:45:52.747 properties. It's legally private and yet it served in this public fashion 00:45:52.780 --> 00:45:58.767 and I could see that it was underperforming in terms of what it could be. 00:45:58.800 --> 00:46:04.887 And so it was irresistible for me when they asked me to be president. And 00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:10.756 so I went for somebody that thought anything east of Albuquerque was East 00:46:10.789 --> 00:46:15.347 Vermont must have been quite, it was quite a change though, both 00:46:15.380 --> 00:46:20.896 geographically and in terms of climate, but but it was a wonderful place. 00:46:20.929 --> 00:46:26.637 I was there 13.5, almost 14 years. And it was just a wonderful place for 00:46:26.670 --> 00:46:33.387 my Children and for me and for for everything unfortunately I, my marriage 00:46:33.420 --> 00:46:37.447 came apart there and I got divorced about halfway through my years there. 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:43.206 Um but it it was, it was just a wonderful place altogether, what was so 00:46:43.239 --> 00:46:51.239 wonderful. Um The, the Northeast has one of the most vital uh an 00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:59.197 interesting uh university environments in the world Boston for example, 00:46:59.230 --> 00:47:01.646 has 250,000 00:47:01.679 --> 00:47:06.677 college students. And so you've got these institutions largely private, 00:47:06.710 --> 00:47:12.997 although there are some good public ones there that are the ferment is 00:47:13.030 --> 00:47:21.030 just something very special. What was most intriguing to me about Vermont 00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:29.159 is that it had the profile of a major public land grant university, a 00:47:29.179 --> 00:47:34.477 college of agriculture, a college of medicine schools of engineering, 00:47:34.510 --> 00:47:37.836 education, business. 00:47:37.869 --> 00:47:45.267 And yet it had the ethos of a small liberal arts college and it was the 00:47:45.300 --> 00:47:51.827 challenge which I others have to judge it, but I think we rose to, was to 00:47:51.860 --> 00:47:59.747 blend those in ways that reinforced one another. Um Vermont estate is both 00:47:59.780 --> 00:48:05.327 small half million people And poor 47th in per capita income. So there was 00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:11.577 no way the state could support a university of the quality and nature of 00:48:11.610 --> 00:48:13.727 UVM 00:48:13.760 --> 00:48:18.967 in conventional public dollar terms. In fact, When I first went to the 00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:23.376 University of Vermont, only 18% of its budget came from the state and I 00:48:23.409 --> 00:48:27.477 hope it wasn't a sign of failure on my part, it was just the movement In 00:48:27.510 --> 00:48:32.787 in in key ways, it was only about 10% when I left. And it's less than that 00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:38.347 now, about half of the students At the University of Vermont come from out 00:48:38.380 --> 00:48:43.597 of state actually as as much as 60%. They come as private university 00:48:43.630 --> 00:48:50.637 students, they pay private Tuition levels 20,000 25,000 a year in tuition. 00:48:50.670 --> 00:48:56.796 Um They come largely from the private prep schools, the most competitive 00:48:56.829 --> 00:49:02.807 schools in the country. Uh, and they bring both a background and a blend 00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:08.876 of interests that are something at the same time, we had these diamonds in 00:49:08.909 --> 00:49:14.066 the rough from the tiny towns of Vermont. It is still a courier and Ives 00:49:14.099 --> 00:49:20.017 state. You've got these just little gems of places in, in a, with a good 00:49:20.050 --> 00:49:24.436 school system, although um a 00:49:24.469 --> 00:49:29.717 uh, a state that doesn't have a lot of funds for that kind of thing. 70% 00:49:29.750 --> 00:49:33.416 of the high schools in Vermont when I was there, still taught Latin for 00:49:33.449 --> 00:49:39.727 example, just part of that classic legacy. And to be, it was a very 00:49:39.760 --> 00:49:45.907 appealing notion to try to blend these creatures. The only one like it 00:49:45.940 --> 00:49:50.736 really is Cornell and even it's different because it's much larger and 00:49:50.769 --> 00:49:56.217 much better funded given the state of, of new york. And so that's what we 00:49:56.250 --> 00:50:01.356 set out to do. And I will say with great pride when a quite influential 00:50:01.389 --> 00:50:08.986 book was published in the, In the mid 1980s called the public ivies. Of 00:50:09.019 --> 00:50:12.086 the eight universities chosen and neighbor institutions like the 00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:16.956 University of Virginia. Uh University of Vermont was one of the public 00:50:16.989 --> 00:50:23.767 ivies. And because unlike large western universities like a shoe where you 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:28.747 simply expand when you have a greater demand. The tradition in New England 00:50:28.780 --> 00:50:36.626 was to keep the same size and you just simply have a deeper applicant pool 00:50:36.659 --> 00:50:39.967 at the time I left the University of Vermont, we were running about eight 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:45.736 applicants for every available space. Even with those rather substantial 00:50:45.769 --> 00:50:50.847 prices from out of state for in state we had an absolute criterion for 00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:55.006 admission. It was a high standard, but a, but a reasonable standard and I 00:50:55.039 --> 00:51:00.256 think we found an interesting mixture. It was, it was just, it was, it was 00:51:00.289 --> 00:51:04.376 a place that when it was very small, it knew what to do, but it was kind 00:51:04.409 --> 00:51:10.217 of caught in this evolution as it moved to a larger university. And I 00:51:10.250 --> 00:51:13.626 found it quite intriguing and 00:51:13.659 --> 00:51:20.586 it was rewarding for me. And I think I, from all I hear from folks there, 00:51:20.619 --> 00:51:24.796 they continue to think they were good years for UVM. 00:51:24.829 --> 00:51:31.006 University of Vermont has about 9000 undergraduates and about 1500 00:51:31.039 --> 00:51:36.106 graduate and medical students. So 10,010 or 11,000 a little smaller than 00:51:36.139 --> 00:51:41.327 an issue about the size of Washington university, Washington University 00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:46.776 Had then and does now 4000 undergraduates and 4000 graduate and medical 00:51:46.809 --> 00:51:49.126 students. 00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:52.626 So that those were good years. And you like Vermont, why didn't you stay? 00:51:52.659 --> 00:51:59.836 Uh I'm a great believer in cycles, cycles for universities, cycles for 00:51:59.869 --> 00:52:07.686 individuals. Uh there's no absolute uh but a cycle in the university is 00:52:07.719 --> 00:52:15.719 more commonly, 10 ish year cycle. Again, it's, there's no absolute to that. 00:52:16.010 --> 00:52:21.916 But the momentum, the shaping the movement, the energy that happens, 00:52:21.949 --> 00:52:29.427 tends to be framed more in that way. And I will just speak personally. I 00:52:29.460 --> 00:52:34.986 find myself, I function now that I've had a chance to experience it in 00:52:35.019 --> 00:52:40.177 three different settings in that kind of cycle as well. I had served as 00:52:40.210 --> 00:52:47.017 president of the University of Vermont For 13.5 years. We were doing well. 00:52:47.050 --> 00:52:51.566 I'd actually committed to To staying through the university's 00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:57.210 bicentennial. I mean, imagine that that university was founded in 1791. 00:52:57.250 --> 00:52:59.250 Beautiful campus overlooking lake champlain was requisitioned by the US 00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:07.506 army to house the american troops in the war of 18 12, most of which a lot 00:53:07.539 --> 00:53:12.376 of which took place right down on lake champlain. And so we were going to 00:53:12.409 --> 00:53:19.617 the fifth oldest in New England only Harvard, Yale Princeton and Brown 00:53:19.650 --> 00:53:23.947 Harvard. Not for instance, not Harvard, Yale, Brown Dartmouth and in 00:53:23.980 --> 00:53:28.657 Vermont. So it had this wonderful lineage and I was going to stay as we 00:53:28.690 --> 00:53:35.807 put that together. But I realized that it was probably about time about 00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:41.617 time for me and about time for the university. Having said that I really 00:53:41.650 --> 00:53:48.157 did not intend to take another presidency. So my thinking which was very 00:53:48.190 --> 00:53:54.989 personal was that it was about time for me to start doing something else. 00:53:55.349 --> 00:53:57.349 What else were you thinking of? I had formed uh the elements of a 00:54:02.889 --> 00:54:10.889 technology transfer group. The um promised at at Uvm nuclear physicist who 00:54:12.769 --> 00:54:17.557 I had recruited from Ohio State had served for 10 years and had gone back 00:54:17.590 --> 00:54:23.287 to the faculty, a senior vice president who was an infectious disease 00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:28.506 specialist, formerly Associate dean of the medical school And the chair of 00:54:28.539 --> 00:54:34.276 three departments, physiology, biophysics, obstetrics, gynecology, mm hmm. 00:54:34.309 --> 00:54:41.356 And I now forget the third we're all interested in joining together. We 00:54:41.389 --> 00:54:47.927 were going to join together as a research technology transfer corporation. 00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:55.960 And a the head of IBM Burlington, the major IBM facility in Vermont 00:54:56.369 --> 00:55:00.637 12,000 employees. So it was a big endeavor formerly head of IBM Germany 00:55:00.670 --> 00:55:07.566 and self um german national who had become an american citizen. We were 00:55:07.599 --> 00:55:11.046 all thinking we put that together and we're looking for some capital to 00:55:11.079 --> 00:55:19.079 try to make it happen and why didn't it happen? Uh I um I was approached 00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:25.836 by a S. U. Um I knew Heidrick and struggles. I knew Bill Bowen 00:55:25.869 --> 00:55:31.206 representative very well had known him for years 00:55:31.239 --> 00:55:39.239 and um and because I really want to things I was persuaded I really did 00:55:39.900 --> 00:55:45.856 not take another presidency was right. I was just I loved these are not 00:55:45.889 --> 00:55:48.787 jobs, these become, 00:55:48.820 --> 00:55:53.106 you become so completely bonded to the community. I just couldn't imagine 00:55:53.139 --> 00:55:58.756 uh being a president in another community like that secondly my daughter 00:55:58.789 --> 00:56:05.267 um My I have three Children 11 years apart of seven between the oldest in 00:56:05.300 --> 00:56:09.646 the middle and then four between the middle and the youngest. My two 00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:15.037 oldest sons were what one was in college and one was in prep school, a 00:56:15.070 --> 00:56:20.327 boarding school and my daughter was still at home. I had promised her we 00:56:20.360 --> 00:56:23.856 wouldn't move until she got out of grade school because there she had 00:56:23.889 --> 00:56:29.086 already been through the to multiple divorce. And so I just so so it's 00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:37.119 both of those led me to say no when I when I when I was first approached 00:56:37.230 --> 00:56:42.146 I guess in retrospect, I realized they thought I was being coy, but that I 00:56:42.179 --> 00:56:47.037 wasn't, I just didn't, I didn't, I really didn't think it was the right 00:56:47.070 --> 00:56:54.517 thing for me, interesting how uh how that changed. Well, I guess one other 00:56:54.550 --> 00:56:57.756 part of the, but the lesson, Herman Channon was chairman of the committee 00:56:57.789 --> 00:57:04.947 . I didn't know him at all, but he, I later learned it was him. Just kept 00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:09.916 after the search consultant came back to me again a few months later and 00:57:09.949 --> 00:57:12.597 asked me to consider 00:57:12.630 --> 00:57:17.796 and I and I just said no, I was not, I was not something I was going to do. 00:57:17.829 --> 00:57:25.387 But they offered, they asked if I would spend an hour with some of the 00:57:25.420 --> 00:57:30.706 region's in boston. They were at a meeting there for the association of 00:57:30.739 --> 00:57:37.367 governing boards and it so happened, I was on my way to one of the spring 00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.396 break 00:57:39.429 --> 00:57:45.677 fundraising runs in florida, which was de rigueur for Northeast university 00:57:45.710 --> 00:57:50.936 presidents. And my son who was in my middle son in prep school was home 00:57:50.969 --> 00:57:55.997 for spring break and he was going to accompany me for this trip to florida. 00:57:56.030 --> 00:58:01.236 I agreed without telling him what I was doing. He'd go ahead and fly on 00:58:01.269 --> 00:58:05.206 to Pittsburgh. I'd leave earlier on a sunday morning went to boston. Met 00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:11.986 with What turned out to be 22 regions herman and Donald Pit and molly 00:58:12.019 --> 00:58:16.416 broad who is executive director of the board Esther captain was to be 00:58:16.449 --> 00:58:20.436 there, but her husband had just died and she obviously understandably 00:58:20.469 --> 00:58:24.626 couldn't come and I spent an hour with him and then went on and cut my 00:58:24.659 --> 00:58:29.287 plane to meet my son in Pittsburgh and we went on to florida. 00:58:29.320 --> 00:58:37.320 Ah I um I wasn't I what what were my feelings at the time? It was clear to 00:58:38.909 --> 00:58:45.066 me this was not the A. S. U. I had known uh 20 years before that there 00:58:45.099 --> 00:58:50.077 were some opportunities, there was something happening but but I was still 00:58:50.110 --> 00:58:57.586 it was still not something I was ready to put on my agenda. 00:58:57.619 --> 00:59:05.619 My Children and I developed a habit of gathering in new york ah two 00:59:06.369 --> 00:59:11.887 weekends a year. My oldest son then was studying at the Sorbonne in paris. 00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:16.486 My middle son was in boarding school in Connecticut, my daughter and I at 00:59:16.519 --> 00:59:23.497 home. And uh we just always made a deal, we would gather there and about a 00:59:23.530 --> 00:59:29.626 month and a half for a month after I had made this visit in boston, we all 00:59:29.659 --> 00:59:34.807 gathered and we, that was the year we stayed at the new brand new Marriott 00:59:34.840 --> 00:59:39.557 to Times Square. We arrived at different times. My daughter and I drove 00:59:39.590 --> 00:59:46.146 down son from Connecticut came in on the late train and I guess my older 00:59:46.179 --> 00:59:49.997 guy had come in the day before. So we finally gathered and we're having 00:59:50.030 --> 00:59:56.126 breakfast the next morning in this very casual, uncrowded, unhurried way, 00:59:56.159 --> 00:59:59.427 just catching up with one another, 00:59:59.460 --> 01:00:03.577 It might be good to give your Children names. Sure my oldest son is 01:00:03.610 --> 01:00:10.907 Kendall, age 41. My middle son is Colin age 34 And my daughter is feral, 01:00:10.940 --> 01:00:16.727 age 30, okay. And you were mentioning about meeting up with new york. I 01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:23.177 was and it was at that breakfast I broached the subject of a a shoe, but I 01:00:23.210 --> 01:00:29.577 I would like to insert an experience we had together about a year and a 01:00:29.610 --> 01:00:36.637 half before A. S. You began talking with me in the spring of 89 In the 01:00:36.670 --> 01:00:42.847 summer of 88 with no idea about ASU. I realized my Children were growing 01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:47.867 up, they knew Arizona through visiting their grandparents and families and 01:00:47.900 --> 01:00:52.697 occasional visits we would make, but they really didn't know the Arizona I 01:00:52.730 --> 01:00:58.017 had grown up in and I kind of wanted them to have it as part of their life 01:00:58.050 --> 01:01:03.236 whatever they wish to do with it. So We uh loaded up all of our camping 01:01:03.269 --> 01:01:08.617 gear. I had been us areas most frequent flyer out of Vermont for years 01:01:08.650 --> 01:01:14.677 because 90% of all of our development prospects lived outside the state 01:01:14.710 --> 01:01:18.456 and I could do a half day in Manhattan and still come back to the campus 01:01:18.489 --> 01:01:24.227 or boston or wherever. So I was on very good terms with all of the staff 01:01:24.260 --> 01:01:32.260 at the, at the local airport, we shipped eight man tent uh dutch ovens. I 01:01:32.389 --> 01:01:37.467 mean we shipped everything and rented a four wheel drive vehicle at 01:01:37.500 --> 01:01:44.927 phoenix Sky harbor and spent almost three weeks traversing. Uh, First we 01:01:44.960 --> 01:01:51.057 started up in at the Apache nation in White River. Uh, my parents have a 01:01:51.090 --> 01:01:57.017 cabin in Pinetop and then over the next three weeks we spent time often 01:01:57.050 --> 01:02:03.467 visiting classmates of mine in Navajo or Hopi. I went up to Lake Powell, 01:02:03.500 --> 01:02:10.166 went to Grand Canyon, went to slide, rock, went to all of those places and 01:02:10.199 --> 01:02:17.166 had, had just an extraordinary experience. Cousin of mine was on the staff 01:02:17.199 --> 01:02:21.166 of the Hopi Nation and helping them with education. And she was living in 01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:25.077 Kings Canyon and just to give a flavor of the trip. My daughter then in 01:02:25.110 --> 01:02:28.956 the fifth grade asked as we were planning this trip. Oh, she said, daddy, 01:02:28.989 --> 01:02:33.247 I'm studying hope the indians. Would we meet some? Well, when we get to 01:02:33.280 --> 01:02:38.907 Kings Canyon, Karen Who's on a nine month contract, uh, living in a 01:02:38.940 --> 01:02:44.166 trailer house, needed summer income. So she would make burrows and sell 01:02:44.199 --> 01:02:49.017 them uh, in the parking lot at Kings Canyon at the trading post. And so 01:02:49.050 --> 01:02:54.327 within an hour of arrival, uh, one of my sons, I think Kendall and I went 01:02:54.360 --> 01:02:58.106 up to put a pitch our tents and the other two kids went to work helping 01:02:58.139 --> 01:03:03.546 Karen make burrows and then went out and with a bucket, sold them in the 01:03:03.579 --> 01:03:11.327 parking lot and we then saved a few and went up to uh, to Wall P, Which 01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:17.177 has only six permanent residents. And a great friend of Karen's a pot 01:03:17.210 --> 01:03:23.177 maker. We sat and ate the remaining boroughs looking out over looking out 01:03:23.210 --> 01:03:27.936 over the sunset and I said to Pharrell so now have you think you've met a 01:03:27.969 --> 01:03:32.836 Hopi do you know what this life is like? So it was an absolutely wonderful 01:03:32.869 --> 01:03:38.577 camping experience as a result of that. My Children had this very fresh, 01:03:38.610 --> 01:03:46.610 vivid picture of the Arizona I love. And at breakfast I approached the 01:03:47.199 --> 01:03:54.566 topic, I said uh a issue has come to ask me if I would consider being 01:03:54.599 --> 01:03:59.456 candidate for president. And my daughter burst into tears. I said Honey, I 01:03:59.489 --> 01:04:04.787 mean she was 14. I said honey. I said no because I promised you we're not 01:04:04.820 --> 01:04:11.356 going to move, we'll get you through school and out of the mouth of babes. 01:04:11.389 --> 01:04:18.037 She said dad don't you know, time for us to start a new life. 01:04:18.070 --> 01:04:23.936 And I've been reflected on that and agreed to come out for a visit when it 01:04:23.969 --> 01:04:26.927 was all under the radar. 01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:32.456 And that really began my conversations. I was only here a half day, 01:04:32.489 --> 01:04:38.646 probably March. Come to phoenix from Vermont in March. It's pretty, pretty 01:04:38.679 --> 01:04:40.747 intoxicating 01:04:40.780 --> 01:04:45.847 and molly broad. Who lived out in the mummy mountain paradise valley or 01:04:45.880 --> 01:04:51.537 you had a had a little dinner for me that evening because it was just half 01:04:51.570 --> 01:04:59.570 day and then I left and Rose Mofford was at the dinner and I had never met 01:04:59.889 --> 01:05:05.387 her but I knew who she was And she opened the conversation, you know, your 01:05:05.420 --> 01:05:10.186 life, 32 years somewhere else kind of all comes back. She said, You know, 01:05:10.219 --> 01:05:15.256 I just, I was talking with chauncey yesterday, but chances my cousin, he's 01:05:15.289 --> 01:05:19.836 the one that helped my father built our house when I was a child and was 01:05:19.869 --> 01:05:24.336 mayor of Goodyear, had been mayor of Goodyear for 20 years and then 01:05:24.369 --> 01:05:31.896 Governor Mofford went on to tell me that her brother, Jim had been a had 01:05:31.929 --> 01:05:36.327 been paired with my uncle, hence when both were on the Arizona highway 01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:41.867 patrol and had responsibility for Everything west of 35th Avenue in 01:05:41.900 --> 01:05:46.407 Maricopa County. And I remember as a youngster, uh, my uncle Hansen, this 01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:51.867 other fellow who obviously was Jim uh, forget what roses maiden name is, 01:05:51.900 --> 01:05:56.287 but her brother would drive up to our little house in Avondale on their 01:05:56.320 --> 01:06:02.486 way out here, Robin as they covered all of that territory. So it was a, an 01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:08.686 interesting mixture of reconnecting with with Arizona, but most 01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:16.267 importantly, really getting a sense that this university uh, just had such 01:06:16.300 --> 01:06:21.927 extraordinary potential and the combination of those things, including the 01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:28.086 advice of my daughter, that it was time for us to consider something new 01:06:28.119 --> 01:06:33.546 in our life, led to a series of conversations and over the next couple of 01:06:33.579 --> 01:06:39.276 months that resulted in my appointment. What was the issue like at that 01:06:39.309 --> 01:06:45.307 point? What made you think that this was the right thing? Two things far 01:06:45.340 --> 01:06:48.947 better than its reputation 01:06:48.980 --> 01:06:53.217 and I guess that can vary by who is making the judgment about the 01:06:53.250 --> 01:07:00.557 reputation. But the larger community did not understand the treasure. Uh, 01:07:00.590 --> 01:07:06.947 I think even the larger academic world did not understand just how 01:07:06.980 --> 01:07:14.980 significantly ASU had evolved in its quality and in its nature. And 01:07:15.659 --> 01:07:23.659 secondly, uh, it is, it was then, and I think remains today the most 01:07:24.289 --> 01:07:31.986 attractive uh public university franchise in America because it is the 01:07:32.019 --> 01:07:34.347 university 01:07:34.380 --> 01:07:39.986 in one of the great new cities of America. And that's rare ST louis, which 01:07:40.019 --> 01:07:48.019 is now smaller than phoenix, had 30 for colleges and universities, Vermont 01:07:49.880 --> 01:07:57.057 half million people Had 22 or 23 colleges and universities. And here was 01:07:57.090 --> 01:08:02.827 an opportunity not to make it a monopoly, but to use it as a lever to say 01:08:02.860 --> 01:08:09.967 , how can we serve in a contemporary way, the evolution of this great city. 01:08:10.000 --> 01:08:17.206 And those were compelling interestingly, and I don't want to diminish or 01:08:17.239 --> 01:08:23.546 even pretend to myself that my love of Arizona wasn't a factor, but, but 01:08:23.579 --> 01:08:28.416 but those were the features that were far more interesting to me than the 01:08:28.449 --> 01:08:33.446 fact that it was Arizona, it was being Arizona was a bonus for me, but it 01:08:33.479 --> 01:08:41.479 was the realization that I not had before that this was a very 01:08:43.569 --> 01:08:50.967 significant university with a lot of potential and going back to my 01:08:51.000 --> 01:08:54.677 experiences and ST louis my experiences in Vermont, I'm a real junkie when 01:08:54.710 --> 01:08:58.826 there's potential that you can really get hold of it, Something can really 01:08:58.859 --> 01:09:02.737 happen. So that's what, that's what captured. Even though you said you 01:09:02.770 --> 01:09:06.677 didn't want to be a university president. Again, that's an interesting 01:09:06.710 --> 01:09:10.597 question and an interesting observation. I guess we all tend to 01:09:10.630 --> 01:09:15.987 rationalize over time, so I can't tell you how pure my view is here, but I 01:09:16.020 --> 01:09:21.637 think it's pretty valid. I realized That these were two totally different 01:09:21.670 --> 01:09:29.376 entities and that I could treasure, as I still do uh my years in Vermont 01:09:29.409 --> 01:09:35.477 and what we did there. But this was a totally different presidency and 01:09:35.510 --> 01:09:41.517 that uh as a result it represented a new set of challenges which was 01:09:41.550 --> 01:09:47.246 intriguing, but also a different set of experiences that while there were 01:09:47.279 --> 01:09:54.977 some parallels were far fewer than would have been the case had I gone to 01:09:55.010 --> 01:10:01.427 a similar kind of institution elsewhere. Yes, you certainly was different 01:10:01.460 --> 01:10:06.246 not only in size but you have an athletic department, all those sorts of 01:10:06.279 --> 01:10:09.746 things that I don't think that's right, we'll have an athletic department 01:10:09.779 --> 01:10:15.977 , but not a major intercollegiate football football. University 01:10:16.010 --> 01:10:21.126 of Vermont, my predecessor is his last act, became the first Land grant 01:10:21.159 --> 01:10:26.267 university in America to eliminate intercollegiate football. So no, it was 01:10:26.300 --> 01:10:30.156 very different. So what was it like coming back to Arizona and to the 01:10:30.189 --> 01:10:38.189 presidency of um what year was that? I accepted the appointment, I was 01:10:39.060 --> 01:10:43.427 appointed In, in May of 1989, 01:10:43.460 --> 01:10:48.696 But I did not come until January of 90. I just couldn't walk off. I 01:10:48.729 --> 01:10:55.557 couldn't walk out on you. Vm. We had wrap up business and pave the way for 01:10:55.590 --> 01:11:03.590 a successor and next generation of leadership there. Um three impressions 01:11:05.109 --> 01:11:07.727 uh 01:11:07.760 --> 01:11:15.017 that I guess uh and in terms of the the question you posed to me, that was 01:11:15.050 --> 01:11:19.576 the question wasn't, what were my impressions or what what what what what 01:11:19.609 --> 01:11:22.706 was the university like at that point? And what were your impressions and 01:11:22.739 --> 01:11:25.567 you're 01:11:25.600 --> 01:11:33.600 and and and and kind of what what what did I find? Um 01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:38.227 There was 01:11:38.260 --> 01:11:43.227 far more personal ah 01:11:43.260 --> 01:11:48.227 uh connection than I expected. Uh 01:11:48.260 --> 01:11:53.277 My impression of Arizona is that it it was populated by newcomers and it 01:11:53.310 --> 01:11:58.527 is largely but I had forgotten that 01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:04.317 kids that I grew up with mostly tended to stay here and grow up as well. 01:12:04.350 --> 01:12:11.897 Uh and I found uh day after day in the first few years and then less 01:12:11.930 --> 01:12:16.687 frequently but still occurring people coming up to me who might've known 01:12:16.720 --> 01:12:24.006 or had had ties with that. Uh We're we're we're very rewarding to me. Give 01:12:24.039 --> 01:12:29.916 you two or three quick examples, A new president meets with a lot of 01:12:29.949 --> 01:12:34.546 different people, especially a lot of the groups that care a lot about the 01:12:34.579 --> 01:12:39.116 university, both within and at the university and in its support groups. 01:12:39.149 --> 01:12:44.796 One of those with which I met early on was the a issue. Native american 01:12:44.829 --> 01:12:50.467 alumni and jefferson begay whom I had not met before was the chairman of 01:12:50.500 --> 01:12:56.607 the group, A builder who lives here in Tempe. Peterson saw was the vice 01:12:56.640 --> 01:13:04.640 chair and Josiah moore was a member of the group. Um neither Peter nor 01:13:05.590 --> 01:13:11.006 Josiah were then in office. It was between the time that Pete had been 01:13:11.039 --> 01:13:16.416 chairman of Navajo and then was elected later as president. And Josiah had 01:13:16.449 --> 01:13:19.717 been chairman of town odom and was working with the state Department of 01:13:19.750 --> 01:13:24.456 Education and was later after I got here elected chairman again, they had 01:13:24.489 --> 01:13:30.027 a very good agenda, we got our business done. And uh, Josiah, a very big 01:13:30.060 --> 01:13:36.317 man. I looked over at me and said, 01:13:36.350 --> 01:13:40.116 you play football little real high. 01:13:40.149 --> 01:13:43.557 He said, you know, the only touchdown I ever made in my life was against 01:13:43.590 --> 01:13:46.616 litchfield. 01:13:46.649 --> 01:13:49.996 I said, you go to our home, 01:13:50.029 --> 01:13:57.116 I said you Blankety blank. I was the guy, the pulling guard. You creamed, 01:13:57.149 --> 01:14:03.217 I can see it today. This huge guy squashes me, goes and knocks the ball 01:14:03.250 --> 01:14:08.906 loose from the quarterback, grabs it. And and 01:14:08.939 --> 01:14:15.107 it was not, it was not a fast run to the goal line, any wins. Uh, well now 01:14:15.140 --> 01:14:22.836 that just was totally unexpected for me, had a similar experience. Uh, at 01:14:22.869 --> 01:14:26.927 White River, I was going up to meet the tribal council because I was 01:14:26.960 --> 01:14:34.496 trying to meet people uh, all over the state, and I was told the committee 01:14:34.529 --> 01:14:41.786 , the Secretary of Education for the tribe would uh, meat would meet me 01:14:41.819 --> 01:14:45.817 and I drive up the tribe, They were in the old headquarters right on Main 01:14:45.850 --> 01:14:50.666 Street at the time. I drive up and 01:14:50.699 --> 01:14:55.076 there's Wesley beneath standing on, standing out there. I haven't seen 01:14:55.109 --> 01:14:59.876 Wesley since he lived across the hall from me at N A. U. He said, well 01:14:59.909 --> 01:15:04.116 what are you doing here? Well, I'm Secretary of Education for the Apache 01:15:04.149 --> 01:15:09.597 nation have been for 20 years or something. And the last little vignette 01:15:09.630 --> 01:15:13.906 all gave it. But it was true, it's just true in all kinds of ways. I was 01:15:13.939 --> 01:15:21.939 meeting with the and the Hopi elders hope he has a restaurant. They're on 01:15:22.149 --> 01:15:27.296 2nd Mesa where they also have a kind of a curio shop. And we were seated 01:15:27.329 --> 01:15:32.946 all of the members of the tribal council around the table. And vernon 01:15:32.979 --> 01:15:37.706 messiahs, for whom I had never met before, was 01:15:37.739 --> 01:15:43.027 was there, he was chairman of the we were we were visiting uh but I had 01:15:43.060 --> 01:15:48.387 learned is that vernon's wife Becky. Uh 01:15:48.420 --> 01:15:54.237 What was was the classmate of Willard sipc Ottawa who had been a classmate 01:15:54.270 --> 01:15:58.467 of mine. It was a brother. It was a sister of Willard. Willard said, So 01:15:58.500 --> 01:16:01.977 we're sitting there having a visit and Willard comes in. I haven't seen 01:16:02.010 --> 01:16:06.527 Willard since I was in college, He went off to a career as a banker and 01:16:06.560 --> 01:16:10.866 gallop, I think other places and had come back to the tribe. So he sits 01:16:10.899 --> 01:16:15.206 next to me and in a stage whisper, I don't think he was intending for 01:16:15.239 --> 01:16:18.616 others to hear it. He started to do you remember the time we dropped the 01:16:18.649 --> 01:16:26.097 frog down? The Dean of Women's dressing in a huge, I said Willard. I did 01:16:26.130 --> 01:16:32.527 meeting the tribal elders. Just stop that. So there are a lot of those 01:16:32.560 --> 01:16:38.887 kind of unexpected and wonderful things that you could pronounce their 01:16:38.920 --> 01:16:44.916 names too. Well, that's true, that, that I could. And it has not been uh, 01:16:44.949 --> 01:16:51.296 and important to me. I it's not been unimportant to me that I also had a 01:16:51.329 --> 01:16:54.756 substantial amount of experience with spanish as a youngster, both people 01:16:54.789 --> 01:17:02.789 and others. In fact, one other event I will relate during the search 01:17:03.630 --> 01:17:08.626 which, which I guess also surprised me. And so I underscored here because 01:17:08.659 --> 01:17:15.817 it was the nature of the university that so captivated me. Uh, the when 01:17:15.850 --> 01:17:19.496 when candidates come, they, you meet everybody who's ever been born. So I 01:17:19.529 --> 01:17:22.607 was running from meeting to meeting to meeting son Angel foundation and 01:17:22.640 --> 01:17:29.567 faculty council councilor deans and so on all in one day. And I was on a 01:17:29.600 --> 01:17:35.517 late flight back to Vermont When running about 45 minutes late, I was to 01:17:35.550 --> 01:17:43.550 meet with the minority community. That's what it was described as. 01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:48.637 When you're not a member of a community, you don't even quite know the 01:17:48.670 --> 01:17:54.036 nuances. I mean, is it latino or hispanic? I mean just those things evolve 01:17:54.069 --> 01:17:59.196 and change. And so I knew here I am now in a setting that is very 01:17:59.229 --> 01:18:03.857 different than the setting I've come from. So I was tired, I was running 01:18:03.890 --> 01:18:11.187 late, but I was a little uh apprehensive, Let's put it that way, just 01:18:11.220 --> 01:18:16.017 because I didn't know the people and there had been some rather raw issues 01:18:16.050 --> 01:18:20.376 that had come up. There had just been a 21 point program that President 01:18:20.409 --> 01:18:24.927 Nelson had agreed when there were some conflicts on the campus between a 01:18:24.960 --> 01:18:28.777 group of white fraternity members who had assaulted a couple of black 01:18:28.810 --> 01:18:34.656 students. So I knew there were tensions on the campus. We went to, uh, at 01:18:34.689 --> 01:18:38.427 the time, the issue downtown was in the old phoenix union high school 01:18:38.460 --> 01:18:43.647 building. So I'm being driven from, I think we were coming from the son 01:18:43.680 --> 01:18:49.027 Angel foundation offices up north north of there, I was being driven in 01:18:49.060 --> 01:18:52.696 and people are talking with me and I look out the window and I see these 01:18:52.729 --> 01:18:56.567 old phoenix again high school building, that's where my mother and father 01:18:56.600 --> 01:19:00.916 went to high school. So I'm looking at that. Then we went in through this 01:19:00.949 --> 01:19:06.956 rabbit warren, which is what those buildings were at the time And into a 01:19:06.989 --> 01:19:14.116 room that was packed about three deep with people who have been waiting. I 01:19:14.149 --> 01:19:20.777 did not know any of them personally and because they were waiting and 01:19:20.810 --> 01:19:25.647 there were lights on because it was one of the, I guess convenient times 01:19:25.680 --> 01:19:31.756 when the tv coverage could take place and so I was kind of ushered into 01:19:31.789 --> 01:19:36.487 the middle of the room and just I forget who introduced me, but just me 01:19:36.520 --> 01:19:43.057 and whomever introduced me now, if you think about the environment and not 01:19:43.090 --> 01:19:46.227 knowing a lot about it, knowing there had been some tensions here, I was 01:19:46.260 --> 01:19:54.260 standing right in the middle with all of these people around me and it was 01:19:54.520 --> 01:19:59.977 a transcendent, transcendent moment for me. I looked 01:20:00.010 --> 01:20:08.010 and I knew who they were because I knew having been a part of this society 01:20:08.989 --> 01:20:13.477 in an earlier time, we knew one another, I guess that's the best way to 01:20:13.510 --> 01:20:19.956 put. So we had this very, um, moving conversation for me very moving 01:20:19.989 --> 01:20:26.677 conversation about the issues and about the hopes and aspirations and I 01:20:26.710 --> 01:20:29.977 don't know, 30 minutes, 45 minutes. So you can't cover a lot of ground. 01:20:30.010 --> 01:20:33.277 But it was, 01:20:33.310 --> 01:20:38.946 it was a deeply moving experience range. So that's the first of the 01:20:38.979 --> 01:20:46.477 impressions I have. The other two, uh, were the 01:20:46.510 --> 01:20:49.977 eagerness, the hunger 01:20:50.010 --> 01:20:55.876 of the faculty and leadership of this university to be somebody 01:20:55.909 --> 01:21:03.597 and because they were better than they than they were believed to be. It 01:21:03.630 --> 01:21:11.630 wasn't a false uh, effort to make that there was, it was providing ways 01:21:11.800 --> 01:21:16.687 they could be. So that appetite, which remains, I think one of the issues 01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:24.720 , greatest assets. I was very uh aware of. One of the members of the 01:21:25.050 --> 01:21:32.246 search committee described it as coil spring ah and the other impression I 01:21:32.279 --> 01:21:34.376 had 01:21:34.409 --> 01:21:37.777 was the 01:21:37.810 --> 01:21:40.376 isolation 01:21:40.409 --> 01:21:44.717 of the university from greater phoenix. I've had a faculty member say, you 01:21:44.750 --> 01:21:48.446 know, one of our greatest weaknesses is that we don't have the phoenix 01:21:48.479 --> 01:21:56.479 address. You want to see if you can get a mailbox in phoenix. And I said 01:21:56.710 --> 01:22:03.166 no no no we are the university of greater phoenix, you don't get a mailbox 01:22:03.199 --> 01:22:10.366 somewhere, you build connections. And I didn't know how to read the 01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:14.467 willingness readiness receptivity 01:22:14.500 --> 01:22:19.057 of the larger community. But I soon found that there was a great 01:22:19.090 --> 01:22:24.737 receptivity and I think if we look at where the university is today and 01:22:24.770 --> 01:22:30.156 where it's headed bonding of the community and the university not just 01:22:30.189 --> 01:22:34.616 with a S. U. West was up and running at the time. They had actually moved 01:22:34.649 --> 01:22:41.057 mostly uh to the to the new campus. Uh Yes you east now, yes, you 01:22:41.090 --> 01:22:44.916 polytechnic hadn't been created yet and and the downtown center hadn't 01:22:44.949 --> 01:22:50.567 moved into the mercado. It's not, but it's not just those things, it's the 01:22:50.600 --> 01:22:55.996 deeper bonding of the university and the community and I could really 01:22:56.029 --> 01:23:01.366 sense the possibilities of that. 01:23:01.399 --> 01:23:08.357 So what were the first things that you set out to do and yeah I um okay I 01:23:08.390 --> 01:23:13.597 lived through that turbulent campus era when inaugurals were looked down 01:23:13.630 --> 01:23:18.166 upon because they cost money and they were out of character because they 01:23:18.199 --> 01:23:23.687 were medieval pageantry and in whatever you fill in the blank and a period 01:23:23.720 --> 01:23:28.937 of austerity or of the rest. 01:23:28.970 --> 01:23:31.267 An inaugural 01:23:31.300 --> 01:23:37.477 is one of the most important bully pulpits. The new president has, it's 01:23:37.510 --> 01:23:45.510 also a moment when a university can strut its stuff and remind everyone of 01:23:46.079 --> 01:23:52.467 what it is. This traditions, I mean, so the gowns may look medieval, they 01:23:52.500 --> 01:23:58.576 are, the hat may look silly. It is, but it is a tradition. Only 01:23:58.609 --> 01:24:03.906 universities in the church in western society have a lineage that is 01:24:03.939 --> 01:24:09.887 unbroken back For the universities to the 7th or 8th century churches even 01:24:09.920 --> 01:24:16.807 longer and an inauguration is a way to do that. So I, uh, learned in my 01:24:16.840 --> 01:24:22.956 years at Vermont and had used an inauguration is for the same purposes 01:24:22.989 --> 01:24:30.989 that, uh, that the inaugural was an important moment to put an agenda on 01:24:31.010 --> 01:24:39.010 the table. I chose March and I've had the opportunity to visit during the 01:24:41.539 --> 01:24:45.027 interregnum between my appointment and my arrival, I came nine times in 01:24:45.060 --> 01:24:50.536 the fall and it's uh, it's a very valuable thing because everybody knows 01:24:50.569 --> 01:24:54.156 you're the president, but you're not the one right there right then making 01:24:54.189 --> 01:24:58.607 decisions and I spent a lot of time meeting with people. I'd come for 01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:03.567 three or four days at a time and I would fill my days with meetings, deans 01:25:03.600 --> 01:25:07.536 and faculty members and various people all around us and, and community, 01:25:07.569 --> 01:25:13.086 but I really focused largely on the campus and from that I was able to 01:25:13.119 --> 01:25:18.987 derive and put in a framework that was important to me views that I 01:25:19.020 --> 01:25:23.296 thought were consonant with interest in the campus, but that could be 01:25:23.329 --> 01:25:28.427 couched in terms of aspirations for the university. I'll tell you an 01:25:28.460 --> 01:25:34.756 interesting thing about that. I had four points. Um 01:25:34.789 --> 01:25:38.586 They became known and were known throughout my presidency as the four 01:25:38.619 --> 01:25:45.416 pillars. I never used the word pillar, but the program had the Doric 01:25:45.449 --> 01:25:51.496 columns from a from west hall Pictured and there were four columns. So if 01:25:51.529 --> 01:25:58.836 you ever need an example of the power of visual imagery, those columns, 01:25:58.869 --> 01:26:04.196 that has to be what it was. And the four points kind of got blended so 01:26:04.229 --> 01:26:11.116 that The four Pillars became a framework into which we could launch a 01:26:11.149 --> 01:26:17.616 variety of initiatives. Some of the things I proposed, what were the four 01:26:17.649 --> 01:26:22.376 pillars, undergraduate education, graduate education, research and 01:26:22.409 --> 01:26:27.366 economic development and connection to the community and uh under 01:26:27.399 --> 01:26:31.616 connection to the community where issues related to minority, minority 01:26:31.649 --> 01:26:36.687 aspirations, minority achievement and under each of them, I really posited 01:26:36.720 --> 01:26:42.817 some major goals that I thought we should accomplish. Uh one that was that 01:26:42.850 --> 01:26:47.347 I never, that was wrong. It just turned out to be, not accomplish a ble, 01:26:47.380 --> 01:26:52.317 was to try to reduce the size of this campus and numbers without reducing 01:26:52.350 --> 01:26:57.637 the state appropriation. The two are intertwined and it turned out just 01:26:57.670 --> 01:27:02.086 not feasible to reduce the size in other ways, but there were a whole 01:27:02.119 --> 01:27:10.119 series then of, of, of, of challenges that required a response uh, from 01:27:11.010 --> 01:27:14.946 throughout the campus as part of that inaugural. And then I followed it up 01:27:14.979 --> 01:27:17.647 with more detailed 01:27:17.680 --> 01:27:23.946 kind of plans that we entered into the various governing councils of the 01:27:23.979 --> 01:27:29.756 university. I also began talking right then and there about a capital 01:27:29.789 --> 01:27:37.789 campaign, curiously. No one ever asked me about a capital campaign when I 01:27:37.899 --> 01:27:43.046 was recruited. That's unthinkable today. The board of regions didn't, the 01:27:43.079 --> 01:27:47.847 search committee didn't to, no one in the support groups here because 01:27:47.880 --> 01:27:54.347 Arizona is still a young place and public universities were not viewed 01:27:54.380 --> 01:27:59.687 here, at least in being places where a capital campaign. But I knew no 01:27:59.720 --> 01:28:04.796 matter how well we did with public support, that we would have to have 01:28:04.829 --> 01:28:11.126 private support as well. And I also placed a great deal of emphasis on 01:28:11.159 --> 01:28:18.626 building our research capacity. Two position us to become a research one 01:28:18.659 --> 01:28:26.597 university, which was a designation that had great meaning both in the 01:28:26.630 --> 01:28:32.807 larger academic world, but also in this community, explain that what is 01:28:32.840 --> 01:28:38.237 the meaning of being a research one university. It has changed now because 01:28:38.270 --> 01:28:46.270 they changed the methodology, but in that era, the Carnegie uh Foundation 01:28:46.310 --> 01:28:50.206 for the Advancement of teaching, one of three Carnegie entities, not the 01:28:50.239 --> 01:28:56.296 Carnegie Corporation, but a very important one um run at the time by Ernie 01:28:56.329 --> 01:29:01.027 Boyer, one of the giants of american higher education had a set of 01:29:01.060 --> 01:29:09.060 classifications for universities, um comprehensive doctoral masters and 01:29:10.039 --> 01:29:18.039 research. One was a category that that signified uh a substantial um 01:29:20.869 --> 01:29:26.546 combination of research of of of of earned competitive research grants in 01:29:26.579 --> 01:29:33.496 volume and number of doctoral degrees conferred. Uh even Ernie knew at the 01:29:33.529 --> 01:29:37.097 time, it it it had been established by Clark Kerr when he was chairman of 01:29:37.130 --> 01:29:42.706 the commission 20 some years before it has been acknowledged by was 01:29:42.739 --> 01:29:47.137 acknowledged by Ernie Boyer to be a rather arbitrary set of rules, but it 01:29:47.170 --> 01:29:54.696 was the measured mile. It was the um the poll for a high jump pole vault 01:29:54.729 --> 01:30:01.967 that you had to enter clear in order to be in that category. And because 01:30:02.000 --> 01:30:04.326 the issue 01:30:04.359 --> 01:30:11.637 was better than it was known to be that badge coming at an unexpected time 01:30:11.670 --> 01:30:16.336 , I think people thought, yeah, yeah, it's growing 10 years from now, 01:30:16.369 --> 01:30:23.977 it'll make it, it was an immensely important thing to us. And so we 01:30:24.010 --> 01:30:28.097 focused our attention on getting it. They only they only ranked them every 01:30:28.130 --> 01:30:32.937 eight years And we, I knew one was coming up, I forget what year it was, 01:30:32.970 --> 01:30:39.656 but it was probably about 94, And uh we focused our energies on that, 01:30:39.689 --> 01:30:44.336 including we had Ernie Boy around here and he talked with us and he saw 01:30:44.369 --> 01:30:49.046 what was going on and we uh really engaged, I had known him a number of 01:30:49.079 --> 01:30:53.467 years, so I was perfectly comfortable knowing he would not jigger anything 01:30:53.500 --> 01:30:58.296 , he just would have a chance to size this up. And it turned out that 01:30:58.329 --> 01:31:05.116 getting that was a big, a really big kind of deal. I'm gonna say one other 01:31:05.149 --> 01:31:08.626 thing about the inaugural 01:31:08.659 --> 01:31:16.659 because I think it is symptomatic of the, the complexity of taking an 01:31:19.750 --> 01:31:27.750 institution with perceptions that are historic based in history and um, 01:31:27.859 --> 01:31:33.717 connecting it with aspirations. I used in my inaugural the term world 01:31:33.750 --> 01:31:40.166 class university to me that is standard when people talk about what issues 01:31:40.199 --> 01:31:47.046 becoming and can become. I had a person who I treasure and think the world 01:31:47.079 --> 01:31:51.487 of and we'll leave unnamed who, who urged me having seen the draft not to 01:31:51.520 --> 01:31:59.366 use it. I thought it was, I don't know what, how it was not appropriate 01:31:59.399 --> 01:32:04.166 for us to be thinking in those terms. And it wasn't a mean spirited 01:32:04.199 --> 01:32:07.576 observation, it was just 01:32:07.609 --> 01:32:15.609 kind of remember who you are and uh, and I, and I and excited because it 01:32:16.300 --> 01:32:24.300 was not deprecatory, it just was not ah, it did not recognize our 01:32:26.329 --> 01:32:31.237 potential and where we were going. And I believe that remains an issue to 01:32:31.270 --> 01:32:35.317 this very day for the university and for this community done right. This 01:32:35.350 --> 01:32:39.777 will be one of the great cities in America. It's got all of the elements, 01:32:39.810 --> 01:32:42.916 they're starting to come together and done right. This will be one of the 01:32:42.949 --> 01:32:47.796 great universities in America and I think it's on its way. I think The 01:32:47.829 --> 01:32:54.517 evolution over the last 20 years and the very clear, focused ambitious 01:32:54.550 --> 01:32:59.916 plan that Michael Crowe has in the new american university all give it 01:32:59.949 --> 01:33:04.647 chance to do that and be that. I guess what I'm most gratified about is 01:33:04.680 --> 01:33:10.107 that I think now people believe it, they don't think that it was that it 01:33:10.140 --> 01:33:15.477 would be inappropriate to say or uppity to say you're going to be a world 01:33:15.510 --> 01:33:22.637 class university. Yeah. The expansion of the university beyond this campus 01:33:22.670 --> 01:33:26.387 really we mentioned sus had already started, but it was pretty small. When 01:33:26.420 --> 01:33:31.866 you got here, the library, I think talk a little bit about how the campus 01:33:31.899 --> 01:33:39.899 group from, from the tippy campus. Mhm. It's A S. U. West had been created. 01:33:41.449 --> 01:33:49.387 Bye Leaders in the West Valley. It was not created by the border regions. 01:33:49.420 --> 01:33:54.376 Was not created by a shoe. There was an early attempt in the early 60s 01:33:54.409 --> 01:33:58.977 when Litchfield Park and Goodyear Farms offered land to put the campus 01:33:59.010 --> 01:34:06.616 there. And there was, there was substantial movement to put it there when 01:34:06.649 --> 01:34:14.649 a legislative reaction to an anti war moonlight candle parade derailed. It 01:34:15.369 --> 01:34:19.536 probably suggests it wasn't right if one event derails it, but it was 01:34:19.569 --> 01:34:26.866 there. The West Valley leadership decided they wanted a campus in the west 01:34:26.899 --> 01:34:32.416 and and and drove the process quite extraordinarily, I must say it's rare 01:34:32.449 --> 01:34:36.576 to have full facilities and a full faculty before the students are there. 01:34:36.609 --> 01:34:42.336 Normally you have students hanging out the windows before you get and a s. 01:34:42.369 --> 01:34:47.217 You embraced it. I believe that Russ, nelson embraced it, Dicker Rebus 01:34:47.250 --> 01:34:51.737 who was then on the faculty in architecture went out to west and did a 01:34:51.770 --> 01:34:59.770 plan. And so it had been, um, it had taken a step of evolution as a, as 01:35:01.060 --> 01:35:06.307 something more than a quote branch campus closed, quote, but it was still 01:35:06.340 --> 01:35:14.340 a campus. So there was the campus in Tempe and the campus there, my view 01:35:15.670 --> 01:35:23.616 very strongly right from the beginning was that we should be, uh, a, a 01:35:23.649 --> 01:35:28.746 university that serves the whole of greater phoenix. The term we came to. 01:35:28.779 --> 01:35:32.937 Not immediately, but fairly soon after I came, was one university 01:35:32.970 --> 01:35:39.626 geographically distributed Michael Crowe. I think it's more more, uh, 01:35:39.659 --> 01:35:46.656 language that is better understood as, uh, one university, uh, in, in 01:35:46.689 --> 01:35:51.727 multiple locations. Actually, the little tagline for ours was a issue, one 01:35:51.760 --> 01:35:59.760 university all over the place, but it was that west end this campus and 01:36:00.180 --> 01:36:06.086 then in time east would be part of a university even as they had 01:36:06.119 --> 01:36:09.696 distinctive features. 01:36:09.729 --> 01:36:14.397 That's what led me to, uh, 01:36:14.430 --> 01:36:19.027 at least the facilities at the Mercado, they had not a issue was not there. 01:36:19.060 --> 01:36:24.996 In fact, my first visit to downtown phoenix after I 01:36:25.029 --> 01:36:29.897 came as president was with Terry Goddard who was then mayor. He led me all 01:36:29.930 --> 01:36:33.366 over, we walked, we did a walking tour of downtown and we ended up and he 01:36:33.399 --> 01:36:38.666 said, you should reach this building and move the school of continuing 01:36:38.699 --> 01:36:43.746 education there, there's a great big sign out in front said Symington and 01:36:43.779 --> 01:36:48.887 company and both Terry and wife had already announced for governor and my 01:36:48.920 --> 01:36:54.097 answer was don't you feel a little silly about plumping a building for 01:36:54.130 --> 01:36:59.696 your opponent in this race? We did lease that facility and have since 01:36:59.729 --> 01:37:06.796 purchased that entire site. That was all part of this notion of building a 01:37:06.829 --> 01:37:09.397 presence 01:37:09.430 --> 01:37:15.786 uh and an access set of access points throughout the valley. 01:37:15.819 --> 01:37:20.057 Well, he certainly was arguing for actually Brent Brown who was then the 01:37:20.090 --> 01:37:24.777 vice president for university relations and now institutional advancement 01:37:24.810 --> 01:37:29.796 was arguing very strongly for it. So there were strong voices within. But 01:37:29.829 --> 01:37:35.536 Terry was anxious to have us do that. And how about the east campus? How 01:37:35.569 --> 01:37:42.217 did that come? Um My third week, second or third week as president, I in 01:37:42.250 --> 01:37:47.956 my efforts to meet people all over the valley took place at the Chandler 01:37:47.989 --> 01:37:53.116 performing arts center. The East Valley Partnership chaired the meeting 01:37:53.149 --> 01:37:59.057 hosted the meeting. And uh I had been alerted by Brent that there was very 01:37:59.090 --> 01:38:05.677 strong feeling about an A. S. U. East campus and in a fairly 01:38:05.710 --> 01:38:09.937 uncharacteristic way. I'm a pretty cautious decision maker. I'd like to 01:38:09.970 --> 01:38:15.397 take bold steps but I really like to sort them through. I like to I like I 01:38:15.430 --> 01:38:20.786 like to have a fuller understanding of the larger environment before I do. 01:38:20.819 --> 01:38:27.357 But I had decided that if we have if the west campus was going to 01:38:27.390 --> 01:38:32.086 flourish as we had hoped for it to that there did need to be an east 01:38:32.119 --> 01:38:36.416 campus. So I'd already decided that my mind, but I was kind of hoping I'd 01:38:36.449 --> 01:38:43.967 have a little time to work it out appeared very lively discussion, Eddie 01:38:44.000 --> 01:38:48.517 basha, not then a region, but obviously then as now a major leader in the 01:38:48.550 --> 01:38:55.376 East Valley was chairing the meeting and uh ready it can be pretty direct 01:38:55.409 --> 01:39:00.696 at times. We got to a point in the meeting and he said, now you support 01:39:00.729 --> 01:39:03.887 and East Valley campus. 01:39:03.920 --> 01:39:06.487 And I said yes 01:39:06.520 --> 01:39:10.347 and there was no more discussion that yes, I said, um, so we didn't even 01:39:10.380 --> 01:39:17.446 get into where because in my view, the biggest Issue, the one I wished to 01:39:17.479 --> 01:39:24.826 avoid. It was a battle over over where it ought to be. Her drink water was 01:39:24.859 --> 01:39:31.666 already her drinkwater had this uh laser like passion that we should 01:39:31.699 --> 01:39:36.866 create a medical school and put it in Scottsdale everywhere. I went my 01:39:36.899 --> 01:39:43.086 first two or three years here, that herb introduced me, he would say, and 01:39:43.119 --> 01:39:48.086 you've got to join me in getting issue to build a medical school and 01:39:48.119 --> 01:39:53.187 Scottsdale including the day he introduced me when I was keynote speaker 01:39:53.220 --> 01:39:57.517 to the groundbreaking for the new research building at Mayo. He got up and 01:39:57.550 --> 01:40:05.550 said that um, Williams was not on the screen at the time. Um, there was 01:40:06.739 --> 01:40:14.739 great concern about it being um, uh closed as a military base, but well I 01:40:14.970 --> 01:40:22.397 did say yes. And we started, uh, we started planning uh, Elmer jaden and 01:40:22.430 --> 01:40:28.076 his team suburban, the provost's office, we started looking at what some 01:40:28.109 --> 01:40:35.296 of the elements really ought to be. Um and then in due course and I don't 01:40:35.329 --> 01:40:40.086 recall exactly how soon, but within a couple of years, Williams became an 01:40:40.119 --> 01:40:44.086 option and it just seemed a natural for us to hook the two together. But 01:40:44.119 --> 01:40:50.317 by then we had been able to do a fair amount of um more careful thinking 01:40:50.350 --> 01:40:55.777 about what we would like it to be. 01:40:55.810 --> 01:41:01.006 What do you see as sort of your style of the presidency and talk to other 01:41:01.039 --> 01:41:05.256 people and they describe the different presidents. Um how would you 01:41:05.289 --> 01:41:13.289 describe your style? I um I believe that the 01:41:14.510 --> 01:41:20.996 best way to proceed given who I am and the the way I try to go about 01:41:21.029 --> 01:41:27.477 things is to set a clear agenda 01:41:27.510 --> 01:41:31.576 to to not ah 01:41:31.609 --> 01:41:38.977 a bold agenda and to but not create it without some consultation. 01:41:39.010 --> 01:41:47.010 Uh So it's not just my agenda, but an agenda that is drawn with a lot of 01:41:49.010 --> 01:41:54.536 um consultation where there are a lot of fingerprints on it of people 01:41:54.569 --> 01:42:02.569 whose judgment I think is valuable and then in setting that bold agenda. 01:42:02.899 --> 01:42:05.366 Two 01:42:05.399 --> 01:42:12.967 give a lot of room to all of the parties who can make it happen to make it 01:42:13.000 --> 01:42:21.000 happen in so doing however, I believe strongly in insisting that we keep 01:42:24.250 --> 01:42:28.807 making progress toward that goal. So if way in which the parties are 01:42:28.840 --> 01:42:36.840 working toward the goal is either diversionary or not as making as much 01:42:37.899 --> 01:42:45.147 progress, I like to pull all the parties together and have a kind of 01:42:45.180 --> 01:42:50.746 moment of truth about where we ought to go. I also believe that none of 01:42:50.779 --> 01:42:58.779 this progress gets made without a lot of discussion. I was asked when I as 01:42:59.149 --> 01:43:02.607 a young man moved from the faculty to the administration if I'd missed 01:43:02.640 --> 01:43:04.857 teaching, 01:43:04.890 --> 01:43:08.067 and I said, well, you don't understand 01:43:08.100 --> 01:43:14.706 what I'll be doing in administration. It's a teaching job, as well as a 01:43:14.739 --> 01:43:20.927 leadership job. Uh huh. Talking about why we're doing it and what we're 01:43:20.960 --> 01:43:26.267 doing and meeting over and over again with various constituencies to work 01:43:26.300 --> 01:43:32.286 through what the meaning is, because you learn in the process, but you 01:43:32.319 --> 01:43:39.767 also help others learn where we're going. Let's take this issue. 01:43:39.800 --> 01:43:46.746 The university's role as a significant engine in the economic dynamics of 01:43:46.779 --> 01:43:52.196 this community. It's still evolving how it is what it is. How does it work 01:43:52.229 --> 01:43:55.897 with tgn, how does it work with bioscience? How does it work with the 01:43:55.930 --> 01:44:01.506 technology transfers going on at the Sky Song campus? So there are 01:44:01.539 --> 01:44:08.256 tangible elements that were not foreseen 10 years ago 01:44:08.289 --> 01:44:12.256 having people understand 01:44:12.289 --> 01:44:18.626 that those tangible elements can develop and and to understand what kind 01:44:18.659 --> 01:44:24.317 of interplay needs to take place within the university and therefore why 01:44:24.350 --> 01:44:30.166 research and why technology transfer and why a series of these things 01:44:30.199 --> 01:44:35.437 where you're bringing very talented people here is important. It's 01:44:35.470 --> 01:44:43.376 interesting uh every most, everybody in a leadership position has a 01:44:43.409 --> 01:44:46.967 personal experience with education. 01:44:47.000 --> 01:44:50.677 They went to college, they went to college. That's a that's an important 01:44:50.710 --> 01:44:58.437 experience. We do a miserable job of teaching our students what the larger 01:44:58.470 --> 01:45:03.987 set of things are going on around them as part of the university and as a 01:45:04.020 --> 01:45:08.196 result of that, people think of their college experience. I'd like to 01:45:08.229 --> 01:45:13.006 assume it's a good, it was a good experience and that's what they think of 01:45:13.039 --> 01:45:18.656 as what the university is. Well, it is that, but it's substantially more 01:45:18.689 --> 01:45:23.256 and so yeah, 01:45:23.289 --> 01:45:28.796 finding ways both for the university and its own community where people 01:45:28.829 --> 01:45:36.829 are, are historically trained to be focused on very specific problems 01:45:39.390 --> 01:45:43.017 to have helped them understand how it connects not only with other 01:45:43.050 --> 01:45:49.237 disciplines, but to the larger issues of society and to have the community 01:45:49.270 --> 01:45:57.270 understand not only how good these people are, but how relevant they are 01:45:57.289 --> 01:46:02.967 is an ongoing teaching job, I believe. Just to give you an example of what 01:46:03.000 --> 01:46:08.656 one would not normally think of, that. One of the most significant ways in 01:46:08.689 --> 01:46:12.786 which a issue has advanced that understanding in this community is the 01:46:12.819 --> 01:46:17.267 President's Community Enrichment Program, something that my wife, Elva put 01:46:17.300 --> 01:46:22.647 together where faculty members go out into people's homes in the community 01:46:22.680 --> 01:46:28.897 and lecture on everything from the origins of space and origins of life 01:46:28.930 --> 01:46:32.987 and origins of society. I mean, experts, world class experts that we have 01:46:33.020 --> 01:46:40.256 on this faculty, two issues of Iraq and religion and conflict and all of 01:46:40.289 --> 01:46:47.036 the things that go on in that endeavor, it's uh stimulating to our 01:46:47.069 --> 01:46:51.576 community visitors because it's stimulating their interesting topics. It's 01:46:51.609 --> 01:46:58.237 impressive because they see these very, very bright able people. It's also 01:46:58.270 --> 01:47:05.647 instructive that they see, oh I see how that set of things leads to a 01:47:05.680 --> 01:47:09.796 strength at the university and exploration of mars and interplanetary 01:47:09.829 --> 01:47:14.807 science. I see how that can relate to space science as part of an economy 01:47:14.840 --> 01:47:18.347 etcetera etcetera. 01:47:18.380 --> 01:47:21.267 I was at Channel eight when you came here and I know one of the things 01:47:21.300 --> 01:47:26.397 people noticed immediately was that you came and you talked to everybody 01:47:26.430 --> 01:47:32.177 from students to staff that will be um is that just part of your style? 01:47:32.210 --> 01:47:40.210 Absolutely. I it's uh I learned so much that way. I made it a point when I 01:47:41.569 --> 01:47:46.946 could, which meant I was on campus to walk around the campus twice a day. 01:47:46.979 --> 01:47:51.227 You can't imagine how hard that is because the president's life Is 01:47:51.260 --> 01:47:56.046 measured in teaspoons. I mean it's 15 minutes here and it's you're always 01:47:56.079 --> 01:48:01.467 people are always waiting. People always want longer. All of these things 01:48:01.500 --> 01:48:08.477 to try to run a day. But I I would walk around the campus and it's 01:48:08.510 --> 01:48:12.296 interesting for a while. At first I didn't, people didn't know who I was 01:48:12.329 --> 01:48:15.706 and then I think they were kind of, but as time went on, people would walk 01:48:15.739 --> 01:48:18.536 up and 01:48:18.569 --> 01:48:24.027 it's it's it's not a scientific poll, but you but you learn things, you 01:48:24.060 --> 01:48:30.897 hear things and I found that wherever I went, that's why I did try to talk 01:48:30.930 --> 01:48:38.506 with as many people in. It's it's like a courteous person, a courteous 01:48:38.539 --> 01:48:46.539 friend who won't tell you you're full of it in a rude way. But they'll 01:48:47.010 --> 01:48:51.156 alert you in a kind way that there's something you ought to be thinking 01:48:51.189 --> 01:48:56.937 about. And I found that I still find it to this day are very, very 01:48:56.970 --> 01:49:04.970 valuable. Uh huh. Part of leadership. I also think ah given the way 01:49:07.130 --> 01:49:12.897 universities have been viewed over history and over time that's kind of 01:49:12.930 --> 01:49:17.036 remote and kind of 01:49:17.069 --> 01:49:25.069 um um Hierarchically different that that people ought to know. We're 01:49:26.090 --> 01:49:30.937 people that the president is a person and that the people within our and I 01:49:30.970 --> 01:49:35.487 find that simply talking with people regularly kind of helps in that way 01:49:35.520 --> 01:49:40.677 as well. What about your relationship as president with the the 01:49:40.710 --> 01:49:44.557 legislature? That's always been interesting for all the presents. Thank 01:49:44.590 --> 01:49:50.336 you. The 01:49:50.369 --> 01:49:57.536 nature, the stylized and limited nature 01:49:57.569 --> 01:50:05.569 of the official transactions of a university President and the legislature 01:50:06.859 --> 01:50:14.267 are not designed to allow the kind of building of bonds that work well 01:50:14.300 --> 01:50:22.300 over time. Ah When you take an $800 million dollar budget now a billion 01:50:24.250 --> 01:50:28.586 into a hearing room along with two other universities 01:50:28.619 --> 01:50:34.196 and you are given three hours before a committee that is facing hearing 01:50:34.229 --> 01:50:42.229 after hearing after hearing after hearing, you cannot have uh very good uh 01:50:43.960 --> 01:50:51.807 The relationship is stylized by that act itself. So what I tried to do and 01:50:51.840 --> 01:50:58.647 it is time consuming but important is to try to build ties outside the 01:50:58.680 --> 01:51:05.927 actual decision process and to do our best to have legislators understand 01:51:05.960 --> 01:51:11.027 many of the same things about the university that I've just described. 01:51:11.060 --> 01:51:17.487 We'd like leadership in general to understand uh, the Arizona legislature 01:51:17.520 --> 01:51:25.027 has uh, has been reasonably supportive of university. So I don't want to 01:51:25.060 --> 01:51:32.897 um, I don't want to, I don't want to understate the value. I don't think I 01:51:32.930 --> 01:51:38.126 succeeded and I don't think we have fully succeeded, although I'm 01:51:38.159 --> 01:51:41.387 impressed with the head weight that's being made right now, Michael Crowe 01:51:41.420 --> 01:51:46.307 and others that are really with the governor's active involvement, 01:51:46.340 --> 01:51:50.956 deepening this understanding about the nature of investment. I don't think 01:51:50.989 --> 01:51:58.989 we made nearly as much headway in building that understanding as we should 01:51:59.250 --> 01:52:07.250 , but that was our effort and we had some successes. Um, I wish we'd had 01:52:08.239 --> 01:52:11.946 more many of the people we've interviewed have talked about the 01:52:11.979 --> 01:52:16.506 relationship of of A. S. U. And the U. Of A. And sort of the day as she 01:52:16.539 --> 01:52:19.246 was sort of the underdog and going to the legislature and the and the 01:52:19.279 --> 01:52:24.137 border regions. Did, you know, I've never really, I found that to be the 01:52:24.170 --> 01:52:26.517 case. 01:52:26.550 --> 01:52:34.550 I and I don't quite understand why this animus, this sense of uh, 01:52:36.329 --> 01:52:40.107 competition beyond the normal, healthy competition 01:52:40.140 --> 01:52:46.817 endures as it does. Uh There is an historic feature that the University of 01:52:46.850 --> 01:52:52.046 Arizona which was funded in a different era. Even accepting the medical 01:52:52.079 --> 01:52:56.317 school has a different per capita level of funding than students at A. S. 01:52:56.350 --> 01:53:01.376 U. That's just an historic fact. If the tables had been turned probably be 01:53:01.409 --> 01:53:05.906 the same way and the people in turn we'd fight to protect it as hard as we 01:53:05.939 --> 01:53:13.756 could. But it's that's just that's in my view analogous to one of the 01:53:13.789 --> 01:53:17.887 siblings being 62 and the other being 58. That's what it is. That's just 01:53:17.920 --> 01:53:24.626 the way it is. And so you you live with it. I am aware that the regions 01:53:24.659 --> 01:53:31.406 until recently, uh we're more heavily represented by people who were 01:53:31.439 --> 01:53:36.357 supporters of or at least identified with the University of Arizona. I did 01:53:36.390 --> 01:53:41.416 not find that in my presidency. 01:53:41.449 --> 01:53:49.449 Yes, there were obvious moments where affiliation uh showed itself in 01:53:49.520 --> 01:53:55.616 interest and I think there were moments we 01:53:55.649 --> 01:53:59.807 explored and put on the table a proposition to create a medical school 01:53:59.840 --> 01:54:07.397 here In about 93 and 94. And it got gunned down by the regions and it was 01:54:07.430 --> 01:54:13.987 the it was the Tucson delegation that gunned it down. I will tell you, 01:54:14.020 --> 01:54:21.496 having spent most of my professional career before coming to Arizona 01:54:21.529 --> 01:54:24.147 in universities with medical schools, There's never been a new medical 01:54:24.180 --> 01:54:29.326 school created that an existing one didn't opposed. So that's that so that 01:54:29.359 --> 01:54:33.857 that happened. And again I would suggest had the tables been turned, it 01:54:33.890 --> 01:54:38.416 would probably have been the same thing, but I do not find a systematic 01:54:38.449 --> 01:54:43.706 bias. I do not, I think 01:54:43.739 --> 01:54:51.739 in general there is a perceived difference uh, in general about the nature 01:54:52.350 --> 01:54:59.817 quality and direction of the two universities. And I found during my 01:54:59.850 --> 01:55:06.756 presidency more evidence of willingness to work together, especially at 01:55:06.789 --> 01:55:12.927 the faculty level. Remember faculty members want colleagues And when you 01:55:12.960 --> 01:55:17.237 have colleagues 90 miles away, that's an asset. That's something that 01:55:17.270 --> 01:55:24.027 people I want to work for, work towards. My prediction is more and more of 01:55:24.060 --> 01:55:28.517 that. There will be bumps and dents and probably will be over the medical 01:55:28.550 --> 01:55:33.496 school issue. That's a very complex issue, very complex issue. But my 01:55:33.529 --> 01:55:39.866 prediction is there will be greater oh, Strengthening other relationships 01:55:39.899 --> 01:55:44.887 both between the two universities and between the two communities in the 01:55:44.920 --> 01:55:47.406 years ahead. 01:55:47.439 --> 01:55:50.876 You mentioned the capital campaign 01:55:50.909 --> 01:55:54.487 talk a little bit about your role as a university president as a 01:55:54.520 --> 01:55:59.237 fundraiser. Is that something that you, I had seen change from the time 01:55:59.270 --> 01:56:05.296 you were in ST louis and then in Vermont and here to be fundraiser as well 01:56:05.329 --> 01:56:12.177 as the university. It has certainly grown In all universities over the 01:56:12.210 --> 01:56:20.210 last 30 years. Oh, my first experience with a campaign was at Washington 01:56:20.279 --> 01:56:27.897 University When we launched a campaign called 70 x 70 launched at 1967. 01:56:27.930 --> 01:56:35.930 And we wanted to raise $70 million 1970 and we did and I was ah I was a 01:56:36.649 --> 01:56:42.177 young faculty member and then, uh, a vice chancellor in the course of that 01:56:42.210 --> 01:56:44.296 campaign. 01:56:44.329 --> 01:56:48.946 Um, University private university have been raising money for quite a 01:56:48.979 --> 01:56:55.036 little while, but it was kind of a newer part of the focus and the, and 01:56:55.069 --> 01:57:01.456 the chancellor president and other institutions was central to that. Since 01:57:01.489 --> 01:57:04.977 that time, university like Washington University's movement, its endowment 01:57:05.010 --> 01:57:10.897 , when we finished that campaign was $280 million. Its endowment today is 01:57:10.930 --> 01:57:16.277 about $4.5 billion. So it has continued to build over time public 01:57:16.310 --> 01:57:20.956 universities with the exception of michigan, which is the university of 01:57:20.989 --> 01:57:27.097 michigan, which has been long a public private entity. 01:57:27.130 --> 01:57:35.027 Uh, and a few others, uh, university of Minnesota among them have not have 01:57:35.060 --> 01:57:43.060 come about this more recently. Um, I believed a issue was a little late in 01:57:45.260 --> 01:57:49.067 recognizing that. And I simply just note it was the newness of the 01:57:49.100 --> 01:57:51.937 university and the newness of the community. Even the University of 01:57:51.970 --> 01:57:55.887 Arizona, which had been engaged in sets of things, especially in the 01:57:55.920 --> 01:58:03.387 health sciences. That expected major campaigns had had rather modest 01:58:03.420 --> 01:58:09.177 campaigns, 100 million, 150 million thereabouts. Prior to the time we 01:58:09.210 --> 01:58:14.786 launched our uh, major campaign, 01:58:14.819 --> 01:58:21.586 let me say a word about fundraising and campaign. That is not intended to 01:58:21.619 --> 01:58:26.296 romanticize it, but I think it's a far better way to think about it than 01:58:26.329 --> 01:58:31.487 we often do. We often think about it as running around with a tin cup. Uh 01:58:31.520 --> 01:58:36.116 , when I was asked by tom Elliott to be a vice chancellor, I said, uh, yes 01:58:36.149 --> 01:58:40.286 , I'll do that as long as I never have to raise money. And he gave me this 01:58:40.319 --> 01:58:44.887 knowing smile and said, as you wish. Well, what I discovered, I especially 01:58:44.920 --> 01:58:47.987 discovered at Vermont 01:58:48.020 --> 01:58:52.387 is that a campaign is successful 01:58:52.420 --> 01:58:59.666 when the major players all bring their capacities to the table and weave 01:58:59.699 --> 01:59:07.227 them together for a goal that all believe the university brings its 01:59:07.260 --> 01:59:13.887 insight into the future and its faculty and it's, it's talent to the table. 01:59:13.920 --> 01:59:20.256 Ah individuals, corporations and others bring money, resources, that's 01:59:20.289 --> 01:59:25.217 very important. But they also bring other features, including their own 01:59:25.250 --> 01:59:30.626 reputations, their own interests, their own sets of things that can help 01:59:30.659 --> 01:59:38.659 shape and accomplish a larger goal. Um, I I believe that a university 01:59:41.489 --> 01:59:48.967 president has a central responsibility to identify those larger goals and 01:59:49.000 --> 01:59:53.786 to bring all of the people together, fundraising becomes a piece of that. 01:59:53.819 --> 01:59:58.777 It's an important piece of that. I dedicated probably, uh, half to three 01:59:58.810 --> 02:00:03.326 quarters of my time To the campaign during its first two or three years 02:00:03.359 --> 02:00:08.177 here because it was such a bold goal. 300 million people gasped if you'll 02:00:08.210 --> 02:00:15.967 think back to that our are consultant said 138 million and I just, that 02:00:16.000 --> 02:00:22.746 seemed to be just unacceptable. And as you know, we ended up almost at 600 02:00:22.779 --> 02:00:27.807 million by the time the campaign was over. Yes, I spent a lot of time on 02:00:27.840 --> 02:00:32.777 that, but that's what that was as much because it was a new phenomenon 02:00:32.810 --> 02:00:37.366 here and people needed to understand why why would you be doing that, 02:00:37.399 --> 02:00:43.746 aren't you? A tax supported institutions to a public institution? But the 02:00:43.779 --> 02:00:49.296 real heart of that campaign was bringing these together. And so I viewed 02:00:49.329 --> 02:00:57.329 then as I view now the President's role in identifying the resources and 02:00:59.020 --> 02:01:04.836 and and and and and ensuring those resources are, are gathered to 02:01:04.869 --> 02:01:09.616 accomplish the larger goals. Same thing happens in terms of making sure 02:01:09.649 --> 02:01:14.586 that we have our best foot forward in competitiveness with the National 02:01:14.619 --> 02:01:19.456 Science Foundation. The the the the grand application has to stand on its 02:01:19.489 --> 02:01:24.817 own merits, but the university's reputation and it's the view with which 02:01:24.850 --> 02:01:28.126 it's held is a is an important part of the, of the President's 02:01:28.159 --> 02:01:30.876 responsibility. 02:01:30.909 --> 02:01:37.687 We were just talking about the successful capital campaign. Um 02:01:37.720 --> 02:01:42.397 Let's see what, what were your greatest challenges during your time as 02:01:42.430 --> 02:01:47.376 president 02:01:47.409 --> 02:01:51.177 Time management personally, 02:01:51.210 --> 02:01:57.977 because there was so much to be done. And while I am a very 02:01:58.010 --> 02:02:04.317 strong delegator, I believe in giving the leadership on the team a lot of 02:02:04.350 --> 02:02:12.350 running room. Ah This presidency took a lot of personal time ah ah 02:02:14.800 --> 02:02:21.366 ah secondly, getting um 02:02:21.399 --> 02:02:29.399 a reasonable uniformity of understanding ah and expectation about what 02:02:29.960 --> 02:02:34.786 this university was and what it was doing. I think that's true for any 02:02:34.819 --> 02:02:40.897 university, but it was especially true here, that it was important to me 02:02:40.930 --> 02:02:46.206 that our ambitions be known, but that may not look artificial or 02:02:46.239 --> 02:02:54.239 inappropriate. And uh that was a fine line finding that fine line was, it 02:02:54.369 --> 02:02:59.996 was not easy. It's not uncommon. I had experienced much the same thing in 02:03:00.029 --> 02:03:02.467 Vermont 02:03:02.500 --> 02:03:07.696 with different variables in different circumstances, but that was a, a 02:03:07.729 --> 02:03:11.567 major challenge here. 02:03:11.600 --> 02:03:14.967 And third, uh 02:03:15.000 --> 02:03:18.437 defining quality 02:03:18.470 --> 02:03:21.366 in an entity that 02:03:21.399 --> 02:03:24.166 was substantially 02:03:24.199 --> 02:03:26.866 defined by quantity. 02:03:26.899 --> 02:03:33.767 Ah Let me give you a couple of examples of that. 02:03:33.800 --> 02:03:40.506 I can't tell you how often I heard the lament as I was getting acquainted 02:03:40.539 --> 02:03:47.467 around town the first year. Uh huh. Long lines, 02:03:47.500 --> 02:03:54.366 large classes, uh, inattentive instructors, 02:03:54.399 --> 02:04:02.399 the set of characteristics that made us look like a huge factory that was 02:04:03.319 --> 02:04:08.956 not being very customer attentive. 02:04:08.989 --> 02:04:13.027 Ah As with all things, there were elements of truth to that. There were 02:04:13.060 --> 02:04:17.677 some rather significant ones. And and there was also a perception built 02:04:17.710 --> 02:04:19.946 out of the fact that we were big and if you're big, therefore you're 02:04:19.979 --> 02:04:27.979 supposed to be that way. I found it very important As one often has to 02:04:28.680 --> 02:04:36.680 where you've got a limited opportunity to enter into people's view of 02:04:36.789 --> 02:04:39.546 something and have them change it. That's that's very hard to do when 02:04:39.579 --> 02:04:43.847 something is fixed in people's minds to 02:04:43.880 --> 02:04:50.456 make some fairly visible, substantial changes at the same time, we were 02:04:50.489 --> 02:04:55.246 correcting some other things. One of the visible changes was to get rid of 02:04:55.279 --> 02:04:59.946 as many of those long lines as we could. And we were doing some not very 02:04:59.979 --> 02:05:05.206 smart stuff. So entering freshmen in the, the hottest time of the year, in 02:05:05.239 --> 02:05:10.177 the middle of august would stand in long lines to do the registration and 02:05:10.210 --> 02:05:14.076 in long lines to do their financial aid and in long lines to get their 02:05:14.109 --> 02:05:19.967 parking permit and in long lines to get their room assignment, you name it. 02:05:20.000 --> 02:05:25.666 And we had the technology and we're able to use the ingenuity to 02:05:25.699 --> 02:05:27.876 substantially 02:05:27.909 --> 02:05:33.227 change the way in which those transactions were done. And within a year or 02:05:33.260 --> 02:05:37.046 so, we were actually having 02:05:37.079 --> 02:05:41.677 meetings all around the nation at which parents and freshman could come to 02:05:41.710 --> 02:05:45.307 the meetings and not only meet people, but for a lot of that transaction 02:05:45.340 --> 02:05:49.256 could be started and they could be connected into ways that it could be 02:05:49.289 --> 02:05:56.206 done electronically. So the perception of that kind of warehouse stuff, we 02:05:56.239 --> 02:06:02.196 were able to at least make a substantial uh some substantial headway 02:06:02.229 --> 02:06:10.229 wasn't easy and it wasn't perfect, but if we changed people's uh kind of 02:06:10.859 --> 02:06:18.286 sense of who we were, secondly, finding a way to have people realize that 02:06:18.319 --> 02:06:23.687 you can be very large and still have highly regarded 02:06:23.720 --> 02:06:29.727 uh qualitative programs within the university. And hands down the barrett 02:06:29.760 --> 02:06:36.416 honors College is the best living example of that, The roughly 3000 02:06:36.449 --> 02:06:39.767 students and I don't know how many there are now in that barrett honors 02:06:39.800 --> 02:06:44.536 college, if you look at their entering profile board scores, high school 02:06:44.569 --> 02:06:46.647 rank, 02:06:46.680 --> 02:06:51.147 uh their basic qualitative characteristics that would be used to judging 02:06:51.180 --> 02:06:56.696 admission and compared them with the most competitive liberal arts 02:06:56.729 --> 02:07:01.607 colleges of 2 to 3000 in the country. And Remember I lived among those for 02:07:01.640 --> 02:07:05.906 14 years before I came here, you couldn't tell the difference the same 02:07:05.939 --> 02:07:11.326 thing about the postbaccalaureate experience placement in graduate school 02:07:11.359 --> 02:07:17.487 , medical school, law school, whatever it was those as well that getting 02:07:17.520 --> 02:07:25.366 people to understand that and having that word get out that, wow, you've 02:07:25.399 --> 02:07:28.687 got an honors college that has these qualities. And then we later were 02:07:28.720 --> 02:07:32.807 able to augment it with number of national merit scholars, one of the 02:07:32.840 --> 02:07:39.147 highest proportion in the nation. And then we would get marshals and roads 02:07:39.180 --> 02:07:44.057 and a lot of these posts, these uh undergraduate awards for 02:07:44.090 --> 02:07:51.847 postbaccalaureate study uh get provided a tangible thing people could see 02:07:51.880 --> 02:07:58.446 and would then enable them to size up other programs in a different light. 02:07:58.479 --> 02:08:05.397 Uh that was a very big challenge and uh I uh I mentioned earlier the 02:08:05.430 --> 02:08:09.336 President's Community Enrichment program, it played a major role. We also 02:08:09.369 --> 02:08:13.607 had something we call sneaker tours that we started with, where we would 02:08:13.640 --> 02:08:17.817 invite people to come for a half day and have them go around two classes 02:08:17.850 --> 02:08:23.446 and it was just like the white coat experience and hospitals are principal 02:08:23.479 --> 02:08:27.847 for a day in a school that really gave them up feel for who was here and 02:08:27.880 --> 02:08:32.737 what was here. You mentioned trying to balance your personal time was a 02:08:32.770 --> 02:08:37.097 challenge and I think you're probably the last president who lived in the 02:08:37.130 --> 02:08:44.237 president's house here adjacent. Again talk about that kind of experience. 02:08:44.270 --> 02:08:51.987 I'd be happy to the president's house. Uh, at Broadmoor and college was, 02:08:52.020 --> 02:08:56.677 was a welcome place for me. I moved here with one child. My daughter 02:08:56.710 --> 02:09:01.717 Farrell, Who was in the 8th grade, the last semester of the 8th grade. She 02:09:01.750 --> 02:09:05.557 had never lived anywhere else than Vermont even though she traveled and 02:09:05.590 --> 02:09:10.637 had other experiences to live there with friends and classmates. McKamey 02:09:10.670 --> 02:09:14.286 Middle school was right across the ST joseph R. Kelly was the principal, 02:09:14.319 --> 02:09:19.906 one of the most lively, wonderful principles I've ever met the school and 02:09:19.939 --> 02:09:25.166 an interesting romantic twist. Harvey Mackay me before he was, it was, it 02:09:25.199 --> 02:09:29.237 was named for Harvey Mackay me superintendent of schools in Tempe before 02:09:29.270 --> 02:09:34.517 he was superintendent of schools in Tempe. He was principle of Kyrenia and 02:09:34.550 --> 02:09:39.777 it was he who hired my mother and my father and where they met. So here 02:09:39.810 --> 02:09:43.887 their granddaughter is in the school name, but here was the school right 02:09:43.920 --> 02:09:49.147 across the street and it really worked very, very well. I was divorced at 02:09:49.180 --> 02:09:56.357 the time but I had a housekeeper who had been with me in Vermont for Uh, 02:09:56.390 --> 02:10:01.256 12 or 13 years. She moved here with me. So we had, we were able to provide 02:10:01.289 --> 02:10:06.456 the stability and used the house a lot for entertaining. But it was also, 02:10:06.489 --> 02:10:11.196 there was a huge meeting room that I think had been added by Russ and 02:10:11.229 --> 02:10:16.517 Benita nelson where you could have conferences and so on. It was the most 02:10:16.550 --> 02:10:21.196 stunning place for a cast party that you've ever seen. So we actually 02:10:21.229 --> 02:10:27.717 learned the boundary of how many pizzas you can order at one time 10 by 02:10:27.750 --> 02:10:32.116 the way for whichever company we ordered them from. And then they would 02:10:32.149 --> 02:10:35.527 always call back thinking some undergraduate was playing a trick ordering 02:10:35.560 --> 02:10:41.826 10 pizzas for the president's house. And so it was a very comfortable in 02:10:41.859 --> 02:10:49.859 good place to, to, to live. Um, it also had another interesting value for 02:10:52.920 --> 02:11:00.920 me. It's fortunately been forgotten by most I had a heart attack my 15th 02:11:01.680 --> 02:11:07.027 month here unexpected, never had any of those kind of health problems and 02:11:07.060 --> 02:11:14.366 but it was, it took me out of circulation for a couple of months and I was 02:11:14.399 --> 02:11:20.267 able to work out of that house as I regained my physical strength. It was 02:11:20.300 --> 02:11:27.006 just, it was this protected little island in the midst of a city. So it 02:11:27.039 --> 02:11:31.826 was a wonderful place to be Farrell then went on to Tempe High And so it 02:11:31.859 --> 02:11:39.859 was good place for her and we were still living in that house when she 02:11:39.890 --> 02:11:43.737 finished her high school year. She did her high school senior year as an 02:11:43.770 --> 02:11:50.227 exchange student in Germany. So she, she lived in that house all the years 02:11:50.260 --> 02:11:57.307 of her finishing middle school and going to high school. Um I got married 02:11:57.340 --> 02:12:03.156 uh in 1990 in December of 1994 02:12:03.189 --> 02:12:10.277 to Elva, my wife, Elva and I had met in college, 02:12:10.310 --> 02:12:14.916 both kids from small town. She came from Camp verde she was a freshman 02:12:14.949 --> 02:12:19.307 when I was a senior. We had no romantic involvement, but we knew one 02:12:19.340 --> 02:12:24.267 another and we hiked, which was Doly unusual in the 50s. People didn't 02:12:24.300 --> 02:12:28.177 hike, especially if you grew up on a ranch or a farm. If you couldn't ride 02:12:28.210 --> 02:12:33.217 your horse to it, you didn't go. We uh and she had been divorced several 02:12:33.250 --> 02:12:37.706 years when I moved here. I I had not seen her for 30 some years, but I had 02:12:37.739 --> 02:12:42.376 known her, she after I graduated and went to graduate school, she left in 02:12:42.409 --> 02:12:45.897 a you and went to work in Barry Goldwater's office, worked for about three 02:12:45.930 --> 02:12:50.387 years, four years before she got married and went to a issue for a year. 02:12:50.420 --> 02:12:56.996 During that period of time when we got married we decided that it was 02:12:57.029 --> 02:13:01.126 time for us to have our own home. I had lived in an official residence by 02:13:01.159 --> 02:13:07.546 then almost 20 years and uh while we loved the house, it was good for 02:13:07.579 --> 02:13:13.347 entertaining. We kind of wanted our own home. So we built our own home in 02:13:13.380 --> 02:13:18.527 south phoenix up against South mountain and moved a year later when the 02:13:18.560 --> 02:13:23.076 house was ready. Do you think that university campuses will lose something 02:13:23.109 --> 02:13:27.666 as most presidents don't live on campus? No, I think it was an artifice 02:13:27.699 --> 02:13:32.666 here. If you're at a midwestern university where the big, huge president's 02:13:32.699 --> 02:13:38.916 house is the center of everything. So if you're in Iowa city or 02:13:38.949 --> 02:13:46.737 aims or one of those, I think it has a very, it plays a very substantial 02:13:46.770 --> 02:13:48.897 role. 02:13:48.930 --> 02:13:52.366 The president's residence at Vermont was right on the edge of the campus, 02:13:52.399 --> 02:13:56.857 so it was functionally in the center of the campus and I think there was a 02:13:56.890 --> 02:14:01.836 symbolic value. We would have a series of receptions. We no longer, even 02:14:01.869 --> 02:14:08.557 at Vermont could have freshman reception and it just wasn't possible. And 02:14:08.590 --> 02:14:12.956 what we've discovered both there and here is that there are so many 02:14:12.989 --> 02:14:18.046 magnificent spaces on campus, the art museums and the various things to 02:14:18.079 --> 02:14:22.656 host functions. I say it was an artifice here. I think there were those 02:14:22.689 --> 02:14:28.647 who enjoyed the events we had at the president's house, but I think it had 02:14:28.680 --> 02:14:34.406 a limited value, virtually no value for undergraduates and a very limited 02:14:34.439 --> 02:14:40.416 value for most of the faculty and staff. I guess I have the adverse side 02:14:40.449 --> 02:14:43.807 and I think presidents residents 02:14:43.840 --> 02:14:47.107 are 02:14:47.140 --> 02:14:54.406 easily misunderstood by the public and our more negative than positive 02:14:54.439 --> 02:14:58.467 ken Keller, who I tried to recruit for Vermont when he was dean of 02:14:58.500 --> 02:15:04.786 engineering at Minnesota was named president there and left after six 02:15:04.819 --> 02:15:09.467 months because the substantial renovation of the president's home was 02:15:09.500 --> 02:15:16.397 viewed as and embellishment for personal purposes? There are numbers of 02:15:16.430 --> 02:15:24.430 presidents where that has happened of derek bok was once asked to describe 02:15:24.869 --> 02:15:30.307 what a, what to describe the role of a university president. He said one 02:15:30.340 --> 02:15:34.656 who lives in a large house and begs for a living. Well the large house 02:15:34.689 --> 02:15:42.206 part is what people I have thought of. I think it's not uh accidental that 02:15:42.239 --> 02:15:46.586 none of the three Arizona universities have residents now. Uh Lawrence 02:15:46.619 --> 02:15:51.027 walk up, moved out of the official residence at N. A. U. It's now the one 02:15:51.060 --> 02:15:58.977 of the central buildings of the inn at N. A. U. Um ah Manuel Pacheco had a 02:15:59.010 --> 02:16:03.977 university furnished home for a while at the U. Of A. But it wasn't right 02:16:04.010 --> 02:16:08.097 on the campus. So I don't know. I don't think so. I think campuses 02:16:08.130 --> 02:16:12.996 certainly an urban campus like this is just much more diverse and 02:16:13.029 --> 02:16:17.586 variegated then then where where, where the role of the president's house 02:16:17.619 --> 02:16:22.616 doesn't play a key role. Were there any surprises for you during your term 02:16:22.649 --> 02:16:30.649 as president thinks that you, 02:16:32.629 --> 02:16:37.397 I I think the 02:16:37.430 --> 02:16:45.430 the extent to which we uh ah had difficulty developing an understanding of 02:16:48.600 --> 02:16:52.376 the role of the university took a little longer than I thought. That was a 02:16:52.409 --> 02:16:58.456 surprise at the front end. But I think it it came along. I was so taken 02:16:58.489 --> 02:17:03.507 with the vitality of phoenix. I thought it was a bit more advanced in its 02:17:03.540 --> 02:17:08.196 understanding about how these things would work. 02:17:08.229 --> 02:17:16.229 I think the abrasions racially surprised me, the regions had just adopted 02:17:17.469 --> 02:17:22.757 one of the most important things. I believe the Arizona university system 02:17:22.790 --> 02:17:27.526 is done in terms of minority recruitment and involvement on the campus and 02:17:27.559 --> 02:17:34.196 that was to increase Minority undergraduate enrollment by 10% per year 02:17:34.229 --> 02:17:37.786 Over a period of five years, ended up being six. And if you compounded, it 02:17:37.819 --> 02:17:45.397 led to almost a 70% increase and there were those who really felt it was 02:17:45.430 --> 02:17:49.796 wrong. This was in the heat of the debate over the martin Luther king 02:17:49.829 --> 02:17:51.997 holiday 02:17:52.030 --> 02:17:57.917 holiday. I publicly endorsed and was surprised. That's a surprise that I 02:17:57.950 --> 02:18:02.686 didn't get more criticism over doing it because I don't normally I have 02:18:02.719 --> 02:18:07.296 From the day I took a public university presidency in 1976. I have 02:18:07.329 --> 02:18:11.637 registered as an independent. I believe that's I should not put the 02:18:11.670 --> 02:18:15.737 university in play out of personal political beliefs and I have therefore 02:18:15.770 --> 02:18:18.186 rarely 02:18:18.219 --> 02:18:23.266 taking a highly visible position on an issue of that kind. Um, so I guess 02:18:23.299 --> 02:18:28.296 I just tuck in the surprise that I didn't get more criticism for that, but 02:18:28.329 --> 02:18:36.286 I was surprised at the lag and understanding of why it was so important to 02:18:36.319 --> 02:18:43.967 really incorporate the full range of diversity in this state in our 02:18:44.000 --> 02:18:46.286 universities. 02:18:46.319 --> 02:18:50.467 But there weren't, there weren't other surprises that this is to use the 02:18:50.500 --> 02:18:55.186 modern term transparent, this was a transparent 02:18:55.219 --> 02:19:02.786 place, what you saw was what it was, that there weren't deep faulknerian 02:19:02.819 --> 02:19:10.819 convolutions, there weren't forces that were lurking ready to pounce on 02:19:11.489 --> 02:19:18.436 the university. Um And so there weren't that that that the the reason I 02:19:18.469 --> 02:19:21.936 paused when you asked the question, it's a good question is that there 02:19:21.969 --> 02:19:27.727 really weren't many surprises because it was so clear and evident to me 02:19:27.760 --> 02:19:34.307 when I came what the what the landscape was and what the issues were. One 02:19:34.340 --> 02:19:37.237 of the things you had to deal with was the athletic department and things. 02:19:37.270 --> 02:19:40.446 And I know I'm doing a little research. I came across some old news 02:19:40.479 --> 02:19:44.356 release of a statement about the athletics and gambling that you were 02:19:44.389 --> 02:19:49.967 involved in. Did that take up more of your time? Not as much as I thought 02:19:50.000 --> 02:19:57.516 it would. I um Asked two or 3 People who buy new since I had never been at 02:19:57.549 --> 02:20:03.747 a Division one school I've been deeply involved in affairs because a 02:20:03.780 --> 02:20:07.706 school like Vermont which had eliminated intercollegiate football was 02:20:07.739 --> 02:20:14.717 really kind of left in a no man's land and so establishing a rightful 02:20:14.750 --> 02:20:18.647 place for that kind of institution for its dominant sports which for them 02:20:18.680 --> 02:20:22.526 were hockey and men and women's basketball, skiing. That kind of thing. I 02:20:22.559 --> 02:20:27.926 had I had a lot of involvement but I have not personally been at the 02:20:27.959 --> 02:20:32.247 Division one University. So I asked two or three people, a couple of 02:20:32.280 --> 02:20:36.516 presidents and an N. C. Double A executive director whom I'd known, former 02:20:36.549 --> 02:20:41.266 athletic director. Ah 02:20:41.299 --> 02:20:49.299 And they warned me that this was a far more um 02:20:49.309 --> 02:20:56.477 difficult place athletically than most. Ah 02:20:56.510 --> 02:21:04.510 Oh they believed that the control by the boosters was unhealthy. 02:21:06.110 --> 02:21:13.907 They believed that the university had put its athletic success out ahead 02:21:13.940 --> 02:21:19.376 of its academic success of athletes not uncommon but that it had been done 02:21:19.409 --> 02:21:27.409 at a substantial level and that uh it was uh that there were major dangers 02:21:28.370 --> 02:21:34.157 in the program. I also was aware that Charles Harris, whom I think was is 02:21:34.190 --> 02:21:41.876 a greatly unsung hero for this. University had been appointed to clean up 02:21:41.909 --> 02:21:45.876 a lot of the difficulties. He had done an admirable job of that. He'd 02:21:45.909 --> 02:21:51.307 earned some enmity in doing it and had just been reappointed by Russ 02:21:51.340 --> 02:21:56.237 nelson to another three year term which some said to me they really 02:21:56.270 --> 02:22:01.866 resented. And I did not, I would have done the same because I thought he 02:22:01.899 --> 02:22:09.899 was doing such an important job. Uh When issues like uh gambling or 02:22:10.629 --> 02:22:17.477 personal assaults or personal lifestyle behavior ah flared up and they did 02:22:17.510 --> 02:22:19.696 , 02:22:19.729 --> 02:22:23.266 it did take a lot of time. 02:22:23.299 --> 02:22:26.967 I am not going to get on a high horse about society's values. But I 02:22:27.000 --> 02:22:32.026 guarantee you we had five times the number of press present for one of 02:22:32.059 --> 02:22:36.827 those conversations than we ever did for any other major news event at the 02:22:36.860 --> 02:22:40.387 university. That's just the way society. That's that's that's the way it 02:22:40.420 --> 02:22:46.467 is. But it did not take an inordinate amount of time. It took time. It had 02:22:46.500 --> 02:22:50.307 to be a high priority. I questioned when I first came why you have the 02:22:50.340 --> 02:22:53.356 athletic director reporting directly to the president, You don't have the 02:22:53.389 --> 02:22:57.186 Dean of Engineering reporting directly to the president. And I came to 02:22:57.219 --> 02:23:04.196 understand why, yes, you had really put an immense apparatus together, 02:23:04.229 --> 02:23:08.356 including a national, very expensive national consultant who monitored 02:23:08.389 --> 02:23:14.436 every activity within the university. And I came quickly to realize that 02:23:14.469 --> 02:23:21.026 was a very wise thing to do. In my time. We had good athletic directors 02:23:21.059 --> 02:23:25.817 Charles was a very good athletic director. Kevin White was a very good 02:23:25.850 --> 02:23:33.850 athletic director jane smith. So I did, I do not feel that it took uh an 02:23:34.729 --> 02:23:40.977 unexpected or even necessarily inordinate amount of time from, from, from 02:23:41.010 --> 02:23:45.747 for me. But you do feel that kind of universities get their reputation 02:23:45.780 --> 02:23:51.266 based on their support teams to some part of the public. At least it, I 02:23:51.299 --> 02:23:55.137 guess there are two ways I would describe it. There are universities whose 02:23:55.170 --> 02:24:01.616 reputation is their athletic team and there are universities with major 02:24:01.649 --> 02:24:08.116 athletic teams whose reputation as a university are blended with them. So 02:24:08.149 --> 02:24:12.776 let me not be naughty and identify the former, but the latter include the 02:24:12.809 --> 02:24:18.116 dukes and the michigan's and the Stanfords and the USCs of the world. I 02:24:18.149 --> 02:24:22.557 think it is a major 02:24:22.590 --> 02:24:30.590 uh struggle for a university that is on its way up academically building 02:24:30.590 --> 02:24:37.436 its reputation to find the right balance to hook those together. 02:24:37.469 --> 02:24:43.737 A. S. U. Not uncommon. Notre dame did the same, had an athletic reputation 02:24:43.770 --> 02:24:51.057 that grew faster, more visibly nationally than its academic reputation. 02:24:51.090 --> 02:24:59.090 And that was never more evident than when We entered PAC 10 in 1978. 02:24:59.190 --> 02:25:03.747 John Shaffer, president of you really, really engineered that. Thank 02:25:03.780 --> 02:25:06.727 goodness. It was one of the most important things that could happen to us 02:25:06.760 --> 02:25:13.426 , but it was a struggle for us and and it still is evident when you look 02:25:13.459 --> 02:25:17.706 at graduation rates and all of the rest of that. But it's the kind of 02:25:17.739 --> 02:25:23.426 struggle that I think can be reconciled, but it takes a lot of effort and 02:25:23.459 --> 02:25:28.817 energy over time to reconcile them. What do you look back and see as your 02:25:28.850 --> 02:25:31.987 greatest accomplishments, the things that you're proudest of, when we 02:25:32.020 --> 02:25:37.807 remember the reputation of this university in this community and in this 02:25:37.840 --> 02:25:45.116 community and as a corollary, the growing recognition nationally that a 02:25:45.149 --> 02:25:53.149 major successful new university uh is emerging in greater phoenix. 02:25:54.889 --> 02:25:58.856 Tell you a little sidebar about my 02:25:58.889 --> 02:26:05.327 candidacy. Herman Chanin first heard my name from Clark Kerr and I'll tell 02:26:05.360 --> 02:26:09.237 you how that happened. Clark Kerr was the great president of the 02:26:09.270 --> 02:26:13.247 University of California Ronald. Reagan didn't think he was so great, 02:26:13.280 --> 02:26:17.036 fired him when he was elected governor. But he was, it was a giant through 02:26:17.069 --> 02:26:22.946 all of that era And he was and after he left the presidency did this 12 ft 02:26:22.979 --> 02:26:29.796 shelf of great books on american higher education, the Carnegie Foundation 02:26:29.829 --> 02:26:37.829 funded clark was invited here. Mm hmm. But it's just incidentally, I think 02:26:38.450 --> 02:26:43.747 after Russ had announced his retirement and while the search was going on 02:26:43.780 --> 02:26:48.276 for a successor, I think very early in the search and he gave a lecture, I 02:26:48.309 --> 02:26:52.897 don't even know what the, the reason for the lecture was in which he said 02:26:52.930 --> 02:26:57.606 , I've gone back and retrieved the notes and find it just fascinating in 02:26:57.639 --> 02:27:03.956 which he said, um, there will be very few great new universities in 02:27:03.989 --> 02:27:09.696 America. They are too hard to build the great ones there too, there are 02:27:09.729 --> 02:27:14.067 too many other competing things to really be able to, but there will be a 02:27:14.100 --> 02:27:19.676 few. And then he laid out the characteristics, they will be public, they 02:27:19.709 --> 02:27:24.587 will be in the sun belt, they will be in a major urban area. And so we set 02:27:24.620 --> 02:27:28.747 these carrots, they will have an established base on which they can build. 02:27:28.780 --> 02:27:32.846 And it, I mean, you read it and you say it's a issue, there's a issue now 02:27:32.879 --> 02:27:37.346 , Clark Kerr is not the kind of person who would pander. So he didn't just 02:27:37.379 --> 02:27:41.106 say that because he was here and they had a dinner at the president's 02:27:41.139 --> 02:27:44.706 residence following that. And as Herman who had already been asked to be 02:27:44.739 --> 02:27:50.346 chairman of the search committee walked clark out to the car, he said were 02:27:50.379 --> 02:27:53.557 we're looking for a new president, you have to have any uh, any 02:27:53.590 --> 02:28:01.137 suggestions. But I'm um, reporting what herman said, but I have a little 02:28:01.170 --> 02:28:08.106 interesting corroboration from clark um Clark said lady core in Vermont I 02:28:08.139 --> 02:28:12.366 don't think you can get him now, that's the first time Hermit had heard. 02:28:12.399 --> 02:28:17.337 And so they started doing all that stuff uh after I'd been here about a 02:28:17.370 --> 02:28:20.786 year or so, Dick Atkinson, who was then president of the University of 02:28:20.819 --> 02:28:25.167 California, it would have been a little later. Dick was U. C. San Diego 02:28:25.200 --> 02:28:29.067 before, so it was probably five or so years after I'd been here, invited 02:28:29.100 --> 02:28:35.046 me to dinner to meet with a group of rectors of german universities, That 02:28:35.079 --> 02:28:38.387 great hotel in Oakland, the one upon the side of the hill whose name, I 02:28:38.420 --> 02:28:43.327 forget one of those old great 19th century hotels and my flight arrived a 02:28:43.360 --> 02:28:47.087 little early, I went to the hotel, I was there an hour or so in advance of 02:28:47.120 --> 02:28:51.016 the dinner and there was clark sitting in the big overstuffed chair in the 02:28:51.049 --> 02:28:55.397 lobby, one of these grand old lobbies. So I went over him, we chatted, 02:28:55.430 --> 02:28:58.807 I've had the privilege of working with him and knowing him for a lot of 02:28:58.840 --> 02:29:04.247 years. So we chatted, he was doing his he's now gone, but he was doing his 02:29:04.280 --> 02:29:11.647 autobiography and we talked about that. I said clark, do you remember when 02:29:11.680 --> 02:29:16.596 you was today issue and giving my name to the 02:29:16.629 --> 02:29:21.776 he said I'm glad you went there. I said did you know when you gave them my 02:29:21.809 --> 02:29:27.307 name that I've been born and raised in Arizona? No, no, he said I thought 02:29:27.340 --> 02:29:31.747 you were from ST louis. So he had absolutely no idea in putting that name 02:29:31.780 --> 02:29:38.276 on the table that it had been there. That reputation I guess again, I just 02:29:38.309 --> 02:29:42.997 know that I, the university's reputation and proudest of because those 02:29:43.030 --> 02:29:48.727 elements were here and I think we've 02:29:48.760 --> 02:29:54.616 been capitalizing on them, we're not there, but we've, I think made, I'm 02:29:54.649 --> 02:29:58.106 proudest of the fact that we found ways to capitalize on them and build 02:29:58.139 --> 02:30:02.217 this space. That's why I say first before national reputation, our 02:30:02.250 --> 02:30:05.526 reputation in the community. 02:30:05.559 --> 02:30:08.507 Are there any things that you hope to accomplish that you weren't able to 02:30:08.540 --> 02:30:12.327 do? 02:30:12.360 --> 02:30:18.046 I had hoped to establish 02:30:18.079 --> 02:30:23.626 an opportunity for every undergraduate 02:30:23.659 --> 02:30:27.526 to have an overseas experience. 02:30:27.559 --> 02:30:34.167 Ah I realized it was a great big place. So I knew there are more freshmen 02:30:34.200 --> 02:30:38.426 at a issue almost in there are undergraduates at the University of Vermont 02:30:38.459 --> 02:30:43.327 so I knew the logistics would be high. But I was struck when I came here 02:30:43.360 --> 02:30:48.727 by how limited the 02:30:48.760 --> 02:30:53.967 undergraduate experience in foreign travel was as compared with the 02:30:54.000 --> 02:30:58.157 experiences I've seen in in New England and Northeast even among 02:30:58.190 --> 02:31:04.026 youngsters from small town rural areas 02:31:04.059 --> 02:31:10.467 and so I pursued for a while but simply other, other things pulled me away 02:31:10.500 --> 02:31:17.126 and I didn't do anything more with it, ways in which we could get major 02:31:17.159 --> 02:31:22.387 companies that had presidents here. Toyota with its big proving ground 02:31:22.420 --> 02:31:27.057 here America west with its air 02:31:27.090 --> 02:31:32.546 international companies like Intel Motorola and others where where we 02:31:32.579 --> 02:31:40.579 could arrange for families in other countries to host issue students just 02:31:42.530 --> 02:31:46.866 for a couple of weeks. It's very hard to have a mass group go for a whole 02:31:46.899 --> 02:31:54.596 semester. And uh I did, I did I did pursue that pretty actively for a 02:31:54.629 --> 02:31:59.926 couple of years and realized it just wasn't feasible. So I'm sorry why did 02:31:59.959 --> 02:32:07.959 you think that was important? Ah We today you and me most of the people in 02:32:08.319 --> 02:32:14.657 this community and on this campus even don't realize just how 02:32:14.690 --> 02:32:21.456 international everything about our life is and for a young person 02:32:21.489 --> 02:32:26.077 especially it's life changing for them to see that and know that it can't 02:32:26.110 --> 02:32:33.106 be a cameo visit. It can't just be visiting 02:32:33.139 --> 02:32:37.296 looking through a tour bus which is not that different than looking at it 02:32:37.329 --> 02:32:43.096 on a television screen. It needs to be a direct transaction. I just think 02:32:43.129 --> 02:32:49.426 that's very important. And uh it struck me as I talked with a lot of 02:32:49.459 --> 02:32:52.977 students and especially Arizona student 02:32:53.010 --> 02:32:58.706 that many of them hadn't done that. That's why it was a little idealist. 02:32:58.739 --> 02:33:02.186 It's a big group right now. That was big. I would have probably been 02:33:02.219 --> 02:33:04.606 wiser 02:33:04.639 --> 02:33:10.866 to have. He started it with a few and kind of build on it even if we 02:33:10.899 --> 02:33:13.217 didn't 02:33:13.250 --> 02:33:16.616 get the whole 02:33:16.649 --> 02:33:22.016 other disappointments. Um No 02:33:22.049 --> 02:33:27.717 no and I say that having 02:33:27.750 --> 02:33:33.516 join this magnificent university with very high expectations. 02:33:33.549 --> 02:33:39.217 Oh sure. And as in every life, it's like everything you wished you would 02:33:39.250 --> 02:33:45.757 Had had 100% on all major fronts. But I also know that at this stage of 02:33:45.790 --> 02:33:50.786 life, if you aren't realistic, you've not learned your lessons. I think we 02:33:50.819 --> 02:33:55.717 established ambitious goals and 02:33:55.750 --> 02:34:03.750 I had a, a high success rate in all of them and I think we did it in ways 02:34:04.260 --> 02:34:10.907 that were true to our heritage. I 02:34:10.940 --> 02:34:13.007 I 02:34:13.040 --> 02:34:15.706 and powerfully 02:34:15.739 --> 02:34:23.739 influence to this very day by the, by the people who shaped this place, by 02:34:23.899 --> 02:34:31.899 the, by what Arizona was when it shaped this place and by the, the footing 02:34:32.530 --> 02:34:35.507 it gave us 02:34:35.540 --> 02:34:38.376 there 02:34:38.409 --> 02:34:43.776 to make sure we ah 02:34:43.809 --> 02:34:49.356 continue to respect that and even as it evolved, has, has meant a great 02:34:49.389 --> 02:34:57.389 deal to me and I think we have, I think we have done, I think we also uh 02:34:57.639 --> 02:35:02.626 have succeeded thanks to the board and the search committee and the search 02:35:02.659 --> 02:35:10.036 process in a transition to new leadership with President Crow and his team 02:35:10.069 --> 02:35:18.069 that really keeps and moves and accelerates the direction we had. I it was 02:35:18.100 --> 02:35:21.007 more prescient than I 02:35:21.040 --> 02:35:28.817 had any reason to be When I came here, I said quietly to a few friends, if 02:35:28.850 --> 02:35:36.850 you could put two decades back to back of clear, focused um, 02:35:36.940 --> 02:35:41.807 effort, it will be one of the great universities can't stop them. But it's 02:35:41.840 --> 02:35:46.686 , it's a little like a hydrofoil, it will be up on 02:35:46.719 --> 02:35:54.719 a plane that it well will enable it to compete effectively and I'm deeply 02:35:54.829 --> 02:36:00.907 pleased at that I for reasons I don't fully understand but I'm not one of 02:36:00.940 --> 02:36:06.516 those who goes around wearing a hair shirt where it's not absolutely clear 02:36:06.549 --> 02:36:14.549 I should, my succession the succession Ed Vermont was less good than here. 02:36:15.229 --> 02:36:22.467 There is a very good president, they're now 20 five years later But they 02:36:22.500 --> 02:36:28.567 went through four or five presidents to get there and universities are 02:36:28.600 --> 02:36:34.196 pretty, endure pretty durable endeavors but entities, but if you're going 02:36:34.229 --> 02:36:39.796 to have high aspirations, you can't have major hiccups along the way. 02:36:39.829 --> 02:36:46.126 There are enough things to move you off track and it's immensely rewarding 02:36:46.159 --> 02:36:53.596 to B to C. That the direction and the energy and overall place of this 02:36:53.629 --> 02:37:01.020 university here in this community, this state is continuing that direction. 02:37:01.329 --> 02:37:03.329 Starting with your term, you mentioned you've retired as president, but 02:37:06.549 --> 02:37:10.266 you haven't retired. You want to talk a little bit about what you're doing 02:37:10.299 --> 02:37:16.286 now. one of the great um privileges of this profession is that for the 02:37:16.319 --> 02:37:21.327 most part, most parts, you start as a faculty member as did I. And then 02:37:21.360 --> 02:37:29.360 even after whatever length of time is a an administrator, you get the 02:37:29.729 --> 02:37:35.696 privilege to return to the faculty if you choose. I did not teach actively 02:37:35.729 --> 02:37:39.967 here when I was president, I did when I was president of Vermont and I 02:37:40.000 --> 02:37:46.397 would have here but I just realized I would have not been benefiting 02:37:46.430 --> 02:37:49.997 either the students or my other responsibilities. 02:37:50.030 --> 02:37:58.030 But I have long um been interested in ah 02:38:00.250 --> 02:38:08.250 teaching as part of my post presidential life. I did not have a carefully 02:38:10.379 --> 02:38:16.176 laid out plan for what I wanted to do after being president. But two or 02:38:16.209 --> 02:38:20.757 three things were clear to me first that L've and I would remain in this 02:38:20.790 --> 02:38:26.157 community, we love this community, it is our home, not just our birth home 02:38:26.190 --> 02:38:34.190 but our home. Secondly that I wanted to remain active 02:38:34.909 --> 02:38:41.977 and remain active with issues of importance to me for uh this community 02:38:42.010 --> 02:38:44.487 and for Arizona, 02:38:44.520 --> 02:38:51.477 Arizona has been very good to me and to my family and I would like to do 02:38:51.510 --> 02:38:59.276 what I can to make sure is good for other people as well. And third, if I 02:38:59.309 --> 02:39:07.309 could combine that with teaching uh an active role on the faculty, that 02:39:07.860 --> 02:39:14.477 what what was the ideal without even thinking a whole lot about it. Um a 02:39:14.510 --> 02:39:20.407 couple of years before I stepped down as president, uh I began working on 02:39:20.440 --> 02:39:25.487 an ocean uh 02:39:25.520 --> 02:39:32.227 of of ways to connect the richness of the university's research and 02:39:32.260 --> 02:39:37.007 recommendations to actual implementation. Universities are very good at 02:39:37.040 --> 02:39:41.967 recommending things. That's what they do. But there's usually a mismatch. 02:39:42.000 --> 02:39:47.186 There's usually a gap between the folks that have to carry all this stuff 02:39:47.219 --> 02:39:51.706 out and those that and so I was interested and seeing what we could do in 02:39:51.739 --> 02:39:55.667 that gap, I had the privilege of serving on a commission that the Kellogg 02:39:55.700 --> 02:39:58.917 foundation put together called the commission on the future of american 02:39:58.950 --> 02:40:05.667 public universities, 25 University presidents together over five years. 25 02:40:05.700 --> 02:40:08.497 University Presidents. Everybody talked and no one listened. It took a 02:40:08.530 --> 02:40:14.296 while to get that straightened out. But we fashioned a new concept to 02:40:14.329 --> 02:40:22.026 teaching research and service. And it was Discovery learning. Excuse me. 02:40:22.059 --> 02:40:30.059 It was uh ah learning uh Discovery Learning for teaching. Discovery for 02:40:31.389 --> 02:40:36.846 research and engagement for service. I believed we needed to have better 02:40:36.879 --> 02:40:41.577 ways to engage the capacities of the university with the community, 02:40:41.610 --> 02:40:48.567 especially as it related two Issues of the Health of Society. 02:40:48.600 --> 02:40:53.176 And I kind of tinkered with what kind of organization it might be and 02:40:53.209 --> 02:40:59.356 talked with a few people about it um in the year following my announcement 02:40:59.389 --> 02:41:03.616 and the search for my successor, two or three of those with whom I talked 02:41:03.649 --> 02:41:09.807 said that's you, you ought to do that. And indeed it did. It was clear to 02:41:09.840 --> 02:41:15.577 me that if we could put together the right organization that I would be 02:41:15.610 --> 02:41:19.387 willing to spend some time with it and we did, we created five oh one C 02:41:19.420 --> 02:41:23.436 three called the center for the Future of Arizona. I took the position of 02:41:23.469 --> 02:41:27.946 chairman and CEO on the grounds that in time I'd like if we're successful 02:41:27.979 --> 02:41:34.036 to have a Ceo take over and I would continue to work with it and raised 02:41:34.069 --> 02:41:38.247 money and leased space. And because I also believe strongly much as I 02:41:38.280 --> 02:41:42.737 admire and support what Michael Crowe is doing. I think the used president 02:41:42.770 --> 02:41:47.557 ought to get out of sight when a new president comes and so I moved 02:41:47.590 --> 02:41:53.676 downtown and leased space and they they they they they they renovated it 02:41:53.709 --> 02:41:57.616 and got it all ready for us to start six months after I left the 02:41:57.649 --> 02:42:02.717 presidency. It so happens that my faculty appointment and I've had a 02:42:02.750 --> 02:42:05.887 faculty appointment all along. It's one of those things that happens when 02:42:05.920 --> 02:42:10.016 presidents are recruited because I'd come from an academic background was 02:42:10.049 --> 02:42:14.727 in the School of public affairs and most of the teaching of the school of 02:42:14.760 --> 02:42:17.936 public affairs is at the downtown campus. And so it turned out to be 02:42:17.969 --> 02:42:25.196 perfect for me to combine my offices as professor and with the center. So 02:42:25.229 --> 02:42:30.856 part of our operation is funded by the center by our private funding and 02:42:30.889 --> 02:42:37.147 part of our facilities and and activities are funded by the university. I 02:42:37.180 --> 02:42:44.346 also had the very great of receiving an endowed chair and there are two 02:42:44.379 --> 02:42:49.366 things about that I'll mention first, an endowed chair Gives one the 02:42:49.399 --> 02:42:55.946 freedom to really mhm work across the university to find things that would 02:42:55.979 --> 02:43:01.307 really be appropriate in President Crow made it very clear he thought this 02:43:01.340 --> 02:43:05.907 center was an important part of that and what I've done or I teach 02:43:05.940 --> 02:43:11.637 graduate seminars uh in the School of public Affairs for as part of my 02:43:11.670 --> 02:43:19.206 teaching related to the secondly the chair that I was given his name for 02:43:19.239 --> 02:43:27.239 Ernest Mcfarland, whom I knew as a youngster and so and who I think is a 02:43:28.959 --> 02:43:33.807 far greater figure in the history of this state than many people realize. 02:43:33.840 --> 02:43:41.840 And so I i it gives me an inspiration to even more. So continue the 02:43:42.100 --> 02:43:46.676 combination of activities that I'm trying to do with our center and with 02:43:46.709 --> 02:43:51.456 the teaching I'm doing. So, it's for me, a wonderful way to stay engaged 02:43:51.489 --> 02:43:57.647 and to pursue some of the agenda that I believe strongly and remain a part 02:43:57.680 --> 02:44:01.257 of the university. And of course there's a building on campus now with 02:44:01.290 --> 02:44:09.036 your, that's quite a, that's quite an experience. I had never seeing the 02:44:09.069 --> 02:44:15.257 actual sine Elva and I have been walk through the building by Eddie jones 02:44:15.290 --> 02:44:20.727 a month before the dedication. So I saw what it was, but I've never seen 02:44:20.760 --> 02:44:25.827 the sign until I walked up for the dedication and it's kind of an out of 02:44:25.860 --> 02:44:31.157 body experience. I mean, you tend to think of those as for someone else 02:44:31.190 --> 02:44:36.456 and they're often for, for people who are dead, so that even added to it, 02:44:36.489 --> 02:44:40.757 but I do, and I'm deeply touched 02:44:40.790 --> 02:44:45.596 by the university to again, do you think that's an appropriate building? 02:44:45.629 --> 02:44:48.737 Oh, well, no, they didn't ask me, they said they were going to do it. 02:44:48.770 --> 02:44:53.706 Absolutely, that's a teaching building, that building uh over 20, some 02:44:53.739 --> 02:44:59.096 classrooms are in that building, it's it's a, it's a wonderful building, 02:44:59.129 --> 02:45:04.106 It's a big building. It's a, I rather like it, but it's a, it's a kind of 02:45:04.139 --> 02:45:08.856 a utilitarian building. It's uh, I like all of those features of it. So I 02:45:08.889 --> 02:45:14.376 think it's terrific. I forget what fraction of the undergraduates at any 02:45:14.409 --> 02:45:18.967 given hour are taking a course in that building. But it's, It's a large 02:45:19.000 --> 02:45:23.917 percentage, it's 10:15 when you consider the size of this campus. So yeah 02:45:23.950 --> 02:45:29.067 , I'm, I'm very pleased that that function being there. They didn't need 02:45:29.100 --> 02:45:33.516 to make it quite so big. But if you know the history of it, we had a 02:45:33.549 --> 02:45:39.837 different building in mind when I had nothing to do with this building or 02:45:39.870 --> 02:45:44.387 its naming. But we have the problem we were working on, when I stepped 02:45:44.420 --> 02:45:48.637 down as president, we had in mind a new building, we've had a couple of 02:45:48.670 --> 02:45:55.327 architectural renderings and had decided not to go forward when the, the 02:45:55.360 --> 02:45:58.946 social science building, the one where then the Dean of Arts and Sciences 02:45:58.979 --> 02:46:05.356 was located was discovered to have a serious structural flaw. And at least 02:46:05.389 --> 02:46:09.696 at the time we knew we we thought we'd have to replace it. So both 02:46:09.729 --> 02:46:15.247 projects were put together and hence this very big building. Elvin, I took 02:46:15.280 --> 02:46:18.587 some time away after I left the presidency and my first day back to campus 02:46:18.620 --> 02:46:25.276 , I was meeting with a faculty member of the superstructure was pretty far 02:46:25.309 --> 02:46:29.637 up by then. And his comment to me was Good Lord. Now, we'll never get out 02:46:29.670 --> 02:46:32.946 from under your shadow. 02:46:32.979 --> 02:46:35.147 Okay, 02:46:35.180 --> 02:46:38.667 You're still, you know, teaching and dealing primarily with graduate 02:46:38.700 --> 02:46:42.467 courses you're teaching. I am master's and doctoral students in the School 02:46:42.500 --> 02:46:48.467 of Public Affairs. Actually, do you teach the seminar I'm doing this 02:46:48.500 --> 02:46:56.500 spring is focused on the question of how does one create a vision for 02:46:57.299 --> 02:47:02.366 Arizona? It's ah, there's a companion. It's the work I'm doing in our 02:47:02.399 --> 02:47:09.067 center. Uh, surprisingly, I think to most people states don't have visions. 02:47:09.100 --> 02:47:12.967 And yet we all know that organizations and highly competitive 02:47:13.000 --> 02:47:17.766 environments can't function without a vision. And so in our center, we've 02:47:17.799 --> 02:47:23.567 set about trying to do something about that. And having examined a whole 02:47:23.600 --> 02:47:30.266 lot of different options. We created a vision by Taking significant policy 02:47:30.299 --> 02:47:36.167 reports from all quarters over the last 15 years and comb them for their 02:47:36.200 --> 02:47:39.266 recommendations. Arizona, town hall Morrison Institute, Goldwater 02:47:39.299 --> 02:47:45.567 Institute, Udall Institute gubernatorial Commission And we came out with 02:47:45.600 --> 02:47:51.467 200 recommendations that came out of those 50 reports Over the last 15 02:47:51.500 --> 02:47:57.567 years and we organized them in a single page and we said you did this, you 02:47:57.600 --> 02:48:00.667 did it in a little different way. This is derivative. But here's a vision 02:48:00.700 --> 02:48:02.866 for Arizona 02:48:02.899 --> 02:48:07.467 to give it some legitimacy. We then went around to cities, counties, towns 02:48:07.500 --> 02:48:12.266 , chambers of Commerce, leadership, organizations like greater phoenix 02:48:12.299 --> 02:48:16.567 leadership and greater phoenix economic council and got them to endorse it. 02:48:16.600 --> 02:48:22.167 So now in the center where trying to figure out how do you do something 02:48:22.200 --> 02:48:28.067 significant with that And our basic belief is you Tease out two or 3 02:48:28.100 --> 02:48:32.366 breakthrough strategies, Jim Collins in his book, good to great cause of 02:48:32.399 --> 02:48:38.167 big hairy audacious goals that you set for the state and you go back. So 02:48:38.200 --> 02:48:41.766 that's the work we're doing in the center and we're in, we're engaged in a 02:48:41.799 --> 02:48:48.567 lot of communities around the state doing that. The seminar is uh an 02:48:48.600 --> 02:48:55.766 examination of the conceptual and practical questions of Mhm Can you, what 02:48:55.799 --> 02:48:59.467 kind of leadership models do you have to create a functional vision in 02:48:59.500 --> 02:49:05.866 Arizona? And so I'm using the different format this time I taught always 02:49:05.899 --> 02:49:12.967 in the past um in in this, in my new role. Um one hour or excuse me one 02:49:13.000 --> 02:49:16.667 night a week, the three or four hour seminar. I'm using the intensive 02:49:16.700 --> 02:49:19.967 format where we do 02:49:20.000 --> 02:49:26.167 two, three day weekends, eight hours a day separated by a month in which 02:49:26.200 --> 02:49:33.567 we tackle the whole thing. And I'm, my first session is in two weeks and 02:49:33.600 --> 02:49:37.567 I've been in touch with the students by the magnificent electronic 02:49:37.600 --> 02:49:42.866 capacities of a program called blackboard that instructors use almost in 02:49:42.899 --> 02:49:47.366 all classes. And so I got them reading and we were communicating with one 02:49:47.399 --> 02:49:51.866 another and posing questions and I've given some assignments and so we'll 02:49:51.899 --> 02:49:56.067 tackle the theoretical parts the first day and then, well I'm bringing in 02:49:56.100 --> 02:50:01.766 some visitors who can give us examples of major visioning activities and 02:50:01.799 --> 02:50:05.667 we'll set about seeing what we can learn from all of that you're 02:50:05.700 --> 02:50:09.467 definitely into the electronic age of teaching. Oh, I think it's one of 02:50:09.500 --> 02:50:12.967 the, it's one of the things that often I think people outside the 02:50:13.000 --> 02:50:18.967 university don't fully can't can't fully understand you think of 02:50:19.000 --> 02:50:23.667 electronic, it's all distance delivery and that does happen. But this 02:50:23.700 --> 02:50:29.967 process I mentioned blackboard uh just allows you in a capture, just just 02:50:30.000 --> 02:50:34.467 the students and I contact one another. I can give them exams. They can 02:50:34.500 --> 02:50:40.467 send me papers, it's all secure. I can have a simultaneous conversation. 02:50:40.500 --> 02:50:44.567 We can say from 12 to 1 we're all gonna be on and we're gonna talk more 02:50:44.600 --> 02:50:49.766 often. We use asynchronous. So I have a discussion board and I say here 02:50:49.799 --> 02:50:54.067 and I tailored the assignments to every one of them. And I say now start 02:50:54.100 --> 02:50:59.866 talking with each other about where you see some overlap and the and you 02:50:59.899 --> 02:51:05.567 can put all kinds of, you can attach all kinds of links. So if you if you 02:51:05.600 --> 02:51:10.667 want them to read a dozen reports which I do the reports are all there 02:51:10.700 --> 02:51:16.567 electronically. So it is, it's a wonderful tool and it's it's a good 02:51:16.600 --> 02:51:22.067 example of the kind of way that a modern university through its electronic 02:51:22.100 --> 02:51:27.667 capacities make these work and these students, they they make power points 02:51:27.700 --> 02:51:31.266 and they all did a homepage for me. So I know who they are. I mean they 02:51:31.299 --> 02:51:36.567 just, they take to it like a duck to water changing world. One of the 02:51:36.600 --> 02:51:40.766 things I'd like to ask everybody before we wrap up here is what advice do 02:51:40.799 --> 02:51:44.667 you give to young people today who are trying to decide what to do with 02:51:44.700 --> 02:51:48.866 their lives, what's going to go to, what career to pursue? 02:51:48.899 --> 02:51:56.899 I am the easiest thing to say to them. Well, yeah, the easiest thing thing 02:51:57.500 --> 02:52:02.866 , but the hardest for them to understand. So I couple it with another 02:52:02.899 --> 02:52:10.167 observation is to really follow their passions. It's hard for a young 02:52:10.200 --> 02:52:14.467 person to understand why you didn't follow my passion. It's hard because 02:52:14.500 --> 02:52:18.366 first of all, they don't fully know they're they're still trying on 02:52:18.399 --> 02:52:21.766 identities and experiences, 02:52:21.799 --> 02:52:26.266 but but if they'll try to develop that internal gyroscope that keeps 02:52:26.299 --> 02:52:32.366 asking what is it I really like to do, what is that I really want? Do I do 02:52:32.399 --> 02:52:36.967 I want to build things, do I want to work with people? Do I want to make 02:52:37.000 --> 02:52:42.967 an impact in society. Do I want to have a high quality lifestyle that I 02:52:43.000 --> 02:52:46.967 want an income that does that I want to create a company. Do I want to 02:52:47.000 --> 02:52:54.667 teach what what to to to to keep thinking about that? Not just young 02:52:54.700 --> 02:53:00.467 people, all of us keep thinking about that. What is it, but I couple it 02:53:00.500 --> 02:53:05.366 with advice that I have found has not only served me well, but I have 02:53:05.399 --> 02:53:09.967 found works well with legions of students with whom I've talked over the 02:53:10.000 --> 02:53:18.000 years. Then go try on various experiences that are related to that. Almost 02:53:19.299 --> 02:53:26.399 anything you think you might want to do, you can experience as a volunteer. 02:53:27.799 --> 02:53:29.799 Let me use myself as an example. I thought about politics, I thought about 02:53:37.399 --> 02:53:42.167 teaching and I thought about academic administration 02:53:42.200 --> 02:53:48.866 and I had an opportunity in my still formative years 02:53:48.899 --> 02:53:55.467 to try each of those on. And that really allowed me to understand what it 02:53:55.500 --> 02:54:01.067 was now. I had narrowed already by the time I left college. 2-1 of those 02:54:01.100 --> 02:54:08.067 strands. So choices have to be made. I had um I took an unusual set of 02:54:08.100 --> 02:54:13.667 advisers when I was first started teaching pre med students who were 02:54:13.700 --> 02:54:19.766 undeclared majors. That's really unusual. Uh that's just unusual. Usually 02:54:19.799 --> 02:54:25.567 they're majoring in biology or something else. And I discovered when I 02:54:25.600 --> 02:54:28.567 really got acquainted with these students, they basically fell into three 02:54:28.600 --> 02:54:36.600 groups. Those that I really wanted to be a physician and take care of sick 02:54:37.200 --> 02:54:41.866 people. They wanted to work with sick people, those that wanted to help 02:54:41.899 --> 02:54:49.899 other people and those that wanted to be independent. Ah When I would ask 02:54:50.299 --> 02:54:54.167 them to their parents chagrin. So if you're not a position, what would you 02:54:54.200 --> 02:54:58.266 like to be interesting things would come out. The latter group wanted to 02:54:58.299 --> 02:55:03.067 be an architect or a lawyer because they'd have some independence. The 02:55:03.100 --> 02:55:10.567 middle group would like to do other human intensive professions. The first 02:55:10.600 --> 02:55:14.366 group often would say, well then they'd like to do research. They couldn't 02:55:14.399 --> 02:55:19.067 be that they'd like to do research. What I did with all of these students 02:55:19.100 --> 02:55:23.366 was make sure they all experienced 02:55:23.399 --> 02:55:28.266 the basic aspects of what being a position was. I mean it's a little 02:55:28.299 --> 02:55:32.067 awkward for a 17 year old to be a candy striper, but I'd arranged for them 02:55:32.100 --> 02:55:36.366 to go down to the hospital and spend time. I haven't come back said, I 02:55:36.399 --> 02:55:40.067 don't know, I like being around sick people really bothers me. Well, 02:55:40.100 --> 02:55:45.567 that's a clue. And so experiencing those things in a variety of ways. One 02:55:45.600 --> 02:55:49.567 can, that's where service learning these projects that allow you to go out 02:55:49.600 --> 02:55:53.667 and tutor youngsters in an inner city that allow you to be an intern with 02:55:53.700 --> 02:55:57.967 a company. Um, sometimes you get paid, Sometimes you don't, My 02:55:58.000 --> 02:56:01.567 recommendation is, I know you got to worry about money but don't make that 02:56:01.600 --> 02:56:06.967 the primary, if you will experience those things that will help sharpen 02:56:07.000 --> 02:56:13.567 What you are. one final piece of advice I give students regularly. 02:56:13.600 --> 02:56:19.866 You really never know what the landscape looks like until you reach the 02:56:19.899 --> 02:56:25.366 next step on the platform. So if you're 02:56:25.399 --> 02:56:29.766 struggling to finish high school, you need to try to think what it's going 02:56:29.799 --> 02:56:34.067 to be like when you finish high school and look at the opportunities that 02:56:34.100 --> 02:56:38.866 are there and look at what it's going to be like when you finish college 02:56:38.899 --> 02:56:44.167 and realize that having done that, you might take a job, but you also 02:56:44.200 --> 02:56:48.766 might go to graduate school. You might go on to do so accomplishing things 02:56:48.799 --> 02:56:54.467 and having the footing from which to then reassess yourself is also part 02:56:54.500 --> 02:56:57.667 of what I would advise you. 02:56:57.700 --> 02:57:01.467 Very good. I think I've gone through most of my questions. Was there 02:57:01.500 --> 02:57:06.167 anything that you thought I was going to ask you that? I didn't. No. I 02:57:06.200 --> 02:57:11.967 think we've covered a lot of territory and she held up a lot of tape. I 02:57:12.000 --> 02:57:17.467 thank you all for doing this project. I I hope you will 02:57:17.500 --> 02:57:19.967 put a good archive. 02:57:20.000 --> 02:57:22.000 Yes.