WEBVTT 00:00:05.839 --> 00:00:07.839 just to identify the tape, I'm pam Stevenson and today is monday november 00:00:10.169 --> 00:00:17.826 the 24th pam. Let me, can you hear me? Okay, well I can now, I'm just 00:00:17.859 --> 00:00:22.197 trying to identify on the tape the date and where we are that it's 00:00:22.230 --> 00:00:27.497 november 24th 2000 and three. And we're here at A. S. U. Doing an 00:00:27.530 --> 00:00:32.537 interview for the Arizona State University retirees association Living 00:00:32.570 --> 00:00:38.107 History video project. And I'd like for you to introduce yourself. Um tell 00:00:38.140 --> 00:00:43.446 us your name and what your role was at A. S. U. When you, when you retired 00:00:43.479 --> 00:00:47.146 basically. And then we'll go back and get more details. Well, my name is 00:00:47.179 --> 00:00:55.179 Jim Elmore and I came to A. S. U. In 1949 and was the founding dean of the 00:00:55.710 --> 00:01:01.307 College of Architecture during the 1st 24 years. I was in the in the 00:01:01.340 --> 00:01:06.607 leadership role as the college grew from. Uh well at first I just taught a 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:11.706 single course and then it became a, 00:01:11.739 --> 00:01:15.176 I didn't even have a name to begin with, it was part of the industrial 00:01:15.209 --> 00:01:22.807 arts department and uh then it became a division and new College of 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:30.107 Engineering and finally in 60 for the College of Architecture, 00:01:30.140 --> 00:01:34.906 why don't we go back and get a little bit of background about you? Um 00:01:34.939 --> 00:01:38.247 First um why don't you tell me where you were born? And when you were born 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:45.307 ? I was born in, in Lincoln Nebraska on september 5th 1917, 00:01:45.340 --> 00:01:52.206 which was Labor Day. My mother has an entirely different view of Labor Day. 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:59.777 Uh and I went to school Lincoln high school. I did spend ages 10 to 15 in 00:01:59.810 --> 00:02:06.217 a little town of 917. My dad was a lumber yard manager, but then I 00:02:06.250 --> 00:02:11.177 graduated from Lincoln High School and the University of Nebraska where I 00:02:11.210 --> 00:02:17.807 received an ROTC commission as second lieutenant. And this was in 1939. 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:25.840 And in 1940 I went to active duty with, became the Corps of Engineers for 00:02:26.409 --> 00:02:29.406 six years until 1946. 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:34.027 So you were in the Army Army Corps of Engineers during World War Two. Want 00:02:34.060 --> 00:02:37.117 to tell us a little bit about what sort of things you did during those 00:02:37.150 --> 00:02:44.006 years? Well, it was a staff position, normally uh three 73rd Engineer, 00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:51.867 General Service Regiment. I was one of two officers that led the advanced 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:59.900 party for the regiment to packing tonight. Park and in England. Oh, and we 00:03:02.150 --> 00:03:08.797 went over on the queen mary, remember that very well and prepared for the 00:03:08.830 --> 00:03:15.506 regiment to come. But then after not very long I was able to get back with 00:03:15.539 --> 00:03:22.557 a former commander at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey sigh potter who was in the 00:03:22.590 --> 00:03:26.356 planning division of the Chief Engineer's office. And so that's where I 00:03:26.389 --> 00:03:33.406 spent the rest of the war actually. My work years were spent in them 00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:41.346 Washington, new york philadelphia London paris and Frankfurt. I always, I 00:03:41.379 --> 00:03:45.136 felt kind of lucky about that and sympathized with those guys out in the 00:03:45.169 --> 00:03:50.027 pacific uh it was a good experience that I had and I over to the military 00:03:50.060 --> 00:03:52.307 ? 00:03:52.340 --> 00:03:55.406 Yeah, it doesn't sound like you had to spend too much time on the front 00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:00.987 lines with your life in danger though. No, I was, I did see, I think the 00:04:01.020 --> 00:04:06.017 first buzz bomb and for a time our offices in London were in the 00:04:06.050 --> 00:04:11.106 Selfridges, an ax on the very top floor where there was only six inches of 00:04:11.139 --> 00:04:16.596 concrete and when we would hear a buzz bomb we'd go up and watch it go 00:04:16.629 --> 00:04:19.187 down. 00:04:19.220 --> 00:04:25.947 That's the closest I ever came. I went to to the continent at about D 21 I 00:04:25.980 --> 00:04:31.467 think it was something like that. Mm hmm. 00:04:31.500 --> 00:04:35.707 And then road to paris on the top of a 00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:43.226 laundry machine. I think it was mm hmm. And spent 18 months in, in paris 00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:51.259 and then time in Frankfurt Germany uh before I came home on a liberty ship. 00:04:52.339 --> 00:04:58.277 And I remember out on the prowl wondering what I was going to do and I 00:04:58.310 --> 00:05:03.757 decided to pursue the, the course that I had followed at the University of 00:05:03.790 --> 00:05:09.267 Nebraska where I studied architecture. It was not yet then accredited and 00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:17.300 it followed the boz art curriculum. And and so I decided to go back to 00:05:18.290 --> 00:05:25.467 Colombia on the G I. Bill where I hope to get an accredited degree in one 00:05:25.500 --> 00:05:32.406 year. Ah but they wouldn't give it to me. I had to take two years, but but 00:05:32.439 --> 00:05:37.286 I got a master's degree and very shortly after that my wife and I came to 00:05:37.319 --> 00:05:45.319 , to phoenix. Your master's degree was in architecture architecture. What 00:05:46.069 --> 00:05:52.166 brought you to phoenix? Well, and and I drove around the country for seven 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:55.197 weeks in 1948 00:05:55.230 --> 00:06:03.156 and it boiled down to Houston san Francisco and phoenix and we decided on 00:06:03.189 --> 00:06:10.156 phoenix I would come to work for Gary in jones fred. Gary is a well known 00:06:10.189 --> 00:06:14.866 architect here, Hugh jones had been with Skidmore owings and Merrill of 00:06:14.899 --> 00:06:21.277 the firm where I had worked while I was spending the two years at Columbia 00:06:21.310 --> 00:06:29.310 before and after and who jones had left Skidmore and come out to join fred 00:06:30.939 --> 00:06:35.277 and that was the contact that we made here and we decided that I would 00:06:35.310 --> 00:06:43.176 come join the firm as soon as I had passed the exam in in new york. And I 00:06:43.209 --> 00:06:48.916 remember so well I was working loaned out to Harris and Obama bits from 00:06:48.949 --> 00:06:52.976 Skidmore owings and Merrill was working on the secretariat building of the 00:06:53.009 --> 00:07:00.567 , of the United Nations when my wife called and toyed with me a little bit 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:03.866 to make me think I had passed part of the exam and it turned out I had 00:07:03.899 --> 00:07:08.046 passed the whole thing on the first try. And so within three weeks we 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:14.007 brought our way to phoenix and uh we have been forever glad that this, 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:18.176 that we made the right choice. What was phoenix like when you came here in 00:07:18.209 --> 00:07:22.207 1949 you said, Yeah, 00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:25.306 well 00:07:25.339 --> 00:07:31.337 what was finished like it was a little town. The road map that we followed 00:07:31.370 --> 00:07:36.757 showed it had a population of 65,000. Excuse me. I've just got to get a 00:07:36.790 --> 00:07:43.996 drink. 00:07:44.029 --> 00:07:48.926 I'm putting together, I'm rambling now. I'm putting together an exhibit 00:07:48.959 --> 00:07:56.959 that the college will mount in february pictures of then and now. Ah 00:07:59.339 --> 00:08:07.339 All right. Um And it goes back to 2 1951 is the oldest picture I've got. 00:08:09.529 --> 00:08:17.077 And what I'm doing is and what I have done is take the same pictures of 00:08:17.110 --> 00:08:25.110 the same places, 2030 and 40 50 years apart. And uh when you asked that 00:08:26.069 --> 00:08:34.016 question, I'm I'm remembering some of those pictures of of what downtown 00:08:34.049 --> 00:08:38.506 phoenix looked like over the agricultural fields out on the west side of 00:08:38.539 --> 00:08:46.539 town. Ah What Van Buren looked like of looking west picture of that and 00:08:47.870 --> 00:08:51.307 what it looks like now with. 00:08:51.340 --> 00:08:56.006 Well the most prominent thing was the Valley bank, octagonal side up on 00:08:56.039 --> 00:09:01.496 top of the professional building. The security building was there where 00:09:01.529 --> 00:09:07.197 Gary and jones had their office, but 00:09:07.230 --> 00:09:10.226 it's not so much a matter of what was there then, because there wasn't 00:09:10.259 --> 00:09:18.259 much. Uh huh. And the now picture shows Arizona center and the the whole 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:22.307 enchilada. 00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:30.340 Uh So that's what what phoenix was like and 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:39.407 and what Tempe was like. I've lived in phoenix and worked in Tempe for all 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:44.246 the time. I never lived in Tempe and I hardly ever worked in in phoenix? I 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:50.376 was back and forth all the time. You made that choice. Well I didn't come 00:09:50.409 --> 00:09:58.409 to teach at A. S. U. I came to be an architect starting with an 00:09:59.100 --> 00:10:07.100 established firm. The work ran out rather quickly with with fred Kyrie and 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:13.726 I went to work with Ed Varney who was in the lower arcade, the arcade of 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:19.417 the lures buildings. And then started to teach one night course over here 00:10:19.450 --> 00:10:24.087 and that's what what brought. But there being no college of Architecture 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:30.646 or no program in architecture closer than Los Angeles or Berkeley or Salt 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:38.679 Lake City or lubbock texas. There seemed to be an opening here and and I 00:10:39.139 --> 00:10:43.876 gradually drifted into that. And that became my career for 37 years here 00:10:43.909 --> 00:10:49.827 on the on the campus. Ah I'll tell you how did you come to teach that 00:10:49.860 --> 00:10:57.606 first class? How did that happen? 00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:05.639 Well, I have I guess I encountered Mill Ensign who was teaching over here. 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:12.547 Both are kind of course. And so that's how I got into it. Uh He stayed 00:11:12.580 --> 00:11:16.807 for only a year because he was more interested in developing his practice. 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:22.006 But my first course was 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:29.717 it was it was a history course and it was in the just it was only all 00:11:29.750 --> 00:11:34.476 Goodwin Stadium, the west, the west stands 00:11:34.509 --> 00:11:41.136 and we were a part of the industrial arts department under louis neb the 00:11:41.169 --> 00:11:44.327 industrial arts department had just moved from another building on the 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:49.567 campus and it was an industrial arts program. There was a programming 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:55.236 upholstery for heaven's sake. And our first video courses were up under 00:11:55.269 --> 00:12:03.269 the seating and the it leaked. But then we got our own concert hut in 1951 00:12:05.139 --> 00:12:08.006 where we 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:16.039 we were there for a couple of years I guess and had to leave because it 00:12:16.350 --> 00:12:21.057 was torn down. This was the first building that had architecture over the 00:12:21.090 --> 00:12:26.366 door and it was torn down for the first building of the College of 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:34.399 Business, which was just then north of of Goodwin Stadium. Um And so 00:12:38.340 --> 00:12:46.340 you asked what, what phoenix and Tempe were like? Uh huh. Oh, I might as 00:12:48.169 --> 00:12:55.226 well continue with this rambling account uh pam because 00:12:55.259 --> 00:13:00.106 at that time 00:13:00.139 --> 00:13:06.896 College Avenue was full of local traffic cars up and down College Avenue 00:13:06.929 --> 00:13:14.929 which became Katie Mall. Oh we were in ah 10 different places on the 00:13:15.070 --> 00:13:21.616 campus, one in the old business building, we were in the basement of the 00:13:21.649 --> 00:13:25.417 student union building until we had to get out so the bowling alleys could 00:13:25.450 --> 00:13:32.856 be installed. And so then we were in the training school, in the unburned 00:13:32.889 --> 00:13:37.596 portion of the training school and in cross hall, which had been the 00:13:37.629 --> 00:13:45.146 dining hall and then the pain training school where we just joke that we 00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:51.967 were undergoing pain training, it was good restrooms, had neither heating 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:58.256 or cooling then. And this was until we got our own building in 1970 fred 00:13:58.289 --> 00:14:06.289 Desiree had been the architect of his first sketches, uh huh show the 00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:12.807 single building for art and architecture complex. That's what it was to be. 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:18.927 And he had architecture on the 2nd and 6th floors and I resisted that. 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:23.937 And fortunately Gilbert Katie backed me up. We had to again have a 00:14:23.970 --> 00:14:30.006 building with College of Architecture over the door. Ah 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:35.606 and so we that was our new building in 1970 that's the old building now. 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.006 It's kind of ironic that for a college of Architecture do not have a 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:47.039 building for the 1st 20 years. Well, we didn't have much stature for all 00:14:47.129 --> 00:14:51.606 that time. We were growing 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:54.407 and 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:59.996 the students that we produced as graduates. Uh, some of them are very, uh 00:15:00.029 --> 00:15:04.856 , very theme. Shall I, shall I talk about that. Let's talk a little bit 00:15:04.889 --> 00:15:10.157 about how the school grew from, you came to teach one class. How did it 00:15:10.190 --> 00:15:15.807 grow to become school of college? 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:22.307 Uh, 00:15:22.340 --> 00:15:27.376 mm hmm. Break away and become, Well, I remember, pardon? You said it was 00:15:27.409 --> 00:15:31.486 part of industrial arts when you first came. Yeah. Break away and become 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:36.896 its separate entity when the College of Engineering was formed, I think, 00:15:36.929 --> 00:15:40.506 and I believe that was in 1956. 00:15:40.539 --> 00:15:48.539 So it wasn't very long. Uh 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:56.639 hmm. How did it? It just kind of grew like topsy, I remember writing to 00:15:57.370 --> 00:16:01.827 the National Architectural Accrediting Board to learn what the procedures 00:16:01.860 --> 00:16:09.860 were for becoming accredited. And I remember the reply was, we should 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:15.096 start a two year program and, and go on from there. Maybe we could be a 00:16:15.129 --> 00:16:23.129 forceful pioneer, the letter said. Uh, so we just had the opportunity to 00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:28.677 add to the faculty to accommodate the students who came, I remember 00:16:28.710 --> 00:16:35.687 recruiting one guy, I see him every now and then, he's in practice. This 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:40.106 was back in the fifties. Um, 00:16:40.139 --> 00:16:47.756 well Benny Gonzalez, I wanted to talk about two students and one faculty 00:16:47.789 --> 00:16:54.266 member, I wanted to be sure and and talk about that. Oh, Benny was 00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:59.677 graduated in 54 I think it was, which was before we had the accredited 00:16:59.710 --> 00:17:07.710 program and that didn't come until 61. Ah But Benny was a fireman and a 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:16.016 student and he made the working drawings for my house and functioned as 00:17:16.049 --> 00:17:20.806 the general contractor and employing 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:27.677 fellow firemen to do the electrical work and the, and the painting and all 00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:35.207 the rest of it. And so Benny was even preceded or or being accredited um, 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:43.006 in building that house. Uh, it was a house next door to the one that the 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:48.746 first one that we had built. And while it was a building, um another 00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:53.566 former student, Nick Deveny, who was in that very first class in the 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:59.927 quantity hut in 1951. Nick now lives across the street from me and I refer 00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:07.786 to him as my oldest living student. Um Nick was supervising work on the 00:18:07.819 --> 00:18:12.917 boomer house and the Edelman House of frank Lloyd wright, which were just 00:18:12.950 --> 00:18:18.296 across the dirt road from where we were building our house, where was that 00:18:18.329 --> 00:18:25.967 ? In alta vista Park Estates, which was the a 40 acre track that was just 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:34.000 east of the biltmore Hotel, not included in the biltmore Holdings. Uh 00:18:34.630 --> 00:18:37.506 So 00:18:37.539 --> 00:18:45.207 well there's a little anecdote that goes along with that mrs boomer uh huh 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:50.276 was not in residence, but the Edelman's were both of the houses were just 00:18:50.309 --> 00:18:55.026 across our, so we invited the neighborhood to a little coffee one sunday 00:18:55.059 --> 00:19:00.746 morning. Um Mr Edelman was in very bad health, they had stayed at the 00:19:00.779 --> 00:19:06.586 biltmore in a bungalow there for many winters and decided to have mr right 00:19:06.619 --> 00:19:12.677 build a house for them, which he did is Usonian automatic. It was well the 00:19:12.710 --> 00:19:16.197 the Edelman's came and at one point I wanted to see the inside of our 00:19:16.230 --> 00:19:22.847 house. So I took a man and I remember mr mr Edelman sort of tiling across 00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:27.617 the living room floor and slumping down on the couch, leaning his hands on 00:19:27.650 --> 00:19:34.607 his cane and his chin and he looked around and said you see mama, like I 00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:40.526 told you you don't have to get a genius to do a house uh That that was 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:48.316 about the highest accolade I I ever had that 00:19:48.349 --> 00:19:54.137 to you or to Benny or both? Oh it was my design, yeah, it was my design. 00:19:54.170 --> 00:19:58.877 Penny built it and I've always been so proud of Benny and and the work 00:19:58.910 --> 00:20:06.207 that he has done in Saudi Arabia in texas, the Scottsdale city Hall and, 00:20:06.240 --> 00:20:12.647 and while there's one other student that I want to talk about frank Henry 00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:20.306 who was our first graduate with the uh, that enabled us to be accredited 00:20:20.339 --> 00:20:25.457 and at that time commencement exercises were on the football field in Sun 00:20:25.490 --> 00:20:31.377 Devil Stadium with the airplanes flying over. This is almost as often as 00:20:31.410 --> 00:20:38.627 they do now. And when President Durham asked will candidates for the 00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:43.907 degree Bachelor of Architecture 1961 00:20:43.940 --> 00:20:51.066 please rise frank Henry stood up. He was in a class by himself. He really 00:20:51.099 --> 00:20:58.006 was uh excellent designer. He worked with architects locally and now frank 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:06.039 is teaching at Taliesin West where he conducts guided tours and he does a 00:21:06.099 --> 00:21:13.016 masterful job of it. He works in the archives there. So Benny and frank or 00:21:13.049 --> 00:21:19.127 or two guys that I think sort of stand for 00:21:19.160 --> 00:21:26.826 the graduates that that we produced, I'm proud of them all. There were 434 00:21:26.859 --> 00:21:31.867 during my watch. I even take a vicarious pride in the ones that graduated 00:21:31.900 --> 00:21:34.707 after my time. 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:38.887 Let's go back a little bit. I interviewed Benny and I did an interview 00:21:38.920 --> 00:21:42.217 with many Gonzalez a couple of years ago and he talked about going to 00:21:42.250 --> 00:21:46.086 school here, but it was kind of complicated because you didn't actually 00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:49.526 give a degree for architecture. Can you explain what, what a student had 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:54.597 to go through after they took your courses to become an architect. Well 00:21:54.630 --> 00:21:59.607 Benny went to the school in Mexico, 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:07.147 but the the degree with which he graduated was called Bachelor of Science 00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:13.226 in industrial arts with an area of concentration in industrial and 00:22:13.259 --> 00:22:20.506 Architectural drafting and design. That's what it said on his diploma. Ah 00:22:20.539 --> 00:22:23.207 And so 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:29.806 he became registered without just by passing the exam. I guess I thought 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:34.496 of that. A lot of them didn't, he said he had to, he had to go somewhere 00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:38.107 else to get some more education before he took the exam. Or was that just 00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:43.197 his choice to Mexico to the architecture down there, it was always 00:22:43.230 --> 00:22:48.786 possible to get registered without a degree. And then he worked with 00:22:48.819 --> 00:22:53.697 Blaine drake. He worked, I did a couple of houses that he did. He worked 00:22:53.730 --> 00:23:00.107 for drover, weaver, drover. 00:23:00.140 --> 00:23:08.140 And just somehow I can't tell you the specifics, but it was a possible 00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:14.556 course of action. And he followed it did most of your students then in 00:23:14.589 --> 00:23:20.826 those early days did they go on to pass the exam and become architects? I 00:23:20.859 --> 00:23:28.607 don't know what percentage of them did. Certainly most of them did. Mhm. 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:35.867 And I remember and if book that I have here that a issues college of 00:23:35.900 --> 00:23:43.900 Architecture the 1st 25 years, which was my watch. Uh We noted that 00:23:45.339 --> 00:23:52.457 a third of the students came from Arizona, a third from California and a 00:23:52.490 --> 00:24:00.407 third from elsewhere that roughly approximates it. And 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:07.516 two thirds of the students stayed here as nearly as we could stay. 00:24:07.549 --> 00:24:13.107 But they went to Australia to Germany to England. Uh 00:24:13.140 --> 00:24:18.127 And we heard back from them and have had exhibitions that showed their 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:23.796 work of which we can be proud. What attracted them here in the early days 00:24:23.829 --> 00:24:31.829 ? What what attracted them to come from all over 00:24:32.539 --> 00:24:36.907 just because we were here, I guess. 00:24:36.940 --> 00:24:44.940 Uh probably the early students were all local and we had grow a little bit 00:24:45.549 --> 00:24:53.549 before. We sort of attracting students from elsewhere. Excuse me. 00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:58.847 You're gonna have to do a lot of editing, editing. We just want to kind of 00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:06.880 get the history down. Yeah. So I don't know you were the only architecture 00:25:08.319 --> 00:25:12.367 school in Arizona then at that time. Right. So the local ones didn't have 00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:18.586 a lot of choices. Yeah. So you say you came and you started teaching one 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:26.619 class? When did you become full time? Working well, pretty soon. Really? 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:32.707 Because I remember. And it says so in this orange book that in 1950 00:25:32.740 --> 00:25:39.976 President Grady Gammage hired me full time. I had the salary of $3800 a 00:25:40.009 --> 00:25:46.086 year. And I was really delighted did you continue to do some architectural 00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:51.207 designing? But in addition, 00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:58.806 uh I associated with a a group of four other architects weaver and drover 00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:06.117 and have er and barney in a group. We called planning associates to 00:26:06.150 --> 00:26:12.276 undertake work on larger scale than individual buildings because all of us 00:26:12.309 --> 00:26:18.367 felt the importance of, of buildings being in context with their 00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:23.506 environment and mm hmm. 00:26:23.539 --> 00:26:25.707 Mhm. 00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:30.996 See you mentioned that, Grady Gammage was the president when he hired you. 00:26:31.029 --> 00:26:36.806 Tell me a little bit about those years when he was president. Uh huh. 00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:43.907 Well we uh 00:26:43.940 --> 00:26:48.306 during during those years we were 00:26:48.339 --> 00:26:51.516 take in the 00:26:51.549 --> 00:26:57.006 one of the first story wings and then the third story of the a wing of the 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:00.707 engineering center. 00:27:00.740 --> 00:27:08.006 But that was even after Dr Gammage, I remember this that uh 00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.107 we had our annual 00:27:11.140 --> 00:27:15.336 awards dinner and banquet in the spring of the year in the student union 00:27:15.369 --> 00:27:21.086 building. As many as 500 people from friends and relatives and the 00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:26.137 community came to those annual events where the dinner was three and a 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:28.506 quarter 00:27:28.539 --> 00:27:36.539 and it must have been in the very early, one of those that Dr Gammage and 00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:44.907 misses the damage came to the event 00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:52.940 and uh I remember yeah, it had to be done. Uh we had the first thing in 7 00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:59.707 58 and I think President Gammage died in 58 anyway on that one occasion, 00:27:59.740 --> 00:28:07.740 oh he asked me up, what what's this I hear about college of the university 00:28:08.930 --> 00:28:15.447 at, at the University of Arizona being the best school in the worst and I 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:20.677 said oh that's just something said little as saying and dr Gandhi said, 00:28:20.710 --> 00:28:28.710 well he is saying it and you can tell I've never forgotten that ah oh 00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:35.496 there are so many little events like that. I've gone beyond your question 00:28:35.529 --> 00:28:41.726 now, I was asking you about your memories of dr Gammage um you mentioned 00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.377 frank Lloyd wright, you know, frank Lloyd wright and Gammy to her friends 00:28:45.410 --> 00:28:48.667 at some point to why don't you talk a little bit about frank Lloyd wright 00:28:48.700 --> 00:28:56.586 ? Well, I've already told you one story about frank Lloyd wright. Um 00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:00.407 I 00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:05.467 I I took students out there quite often and talked with him and I had one 00:29:05.500 --> 00:29:10.776 appointment with him by by appointment and I remember so clearly I can 00:29:10.809 --> 00:29:14.586 still see him coming into the living room through that little brightly 00:29:14.619 --> 00:29:21.506 lighted atrium and thinking what a match between a man and a place this is. 00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:27.377 We had a nice conversation and uh on several occasions I saw him there. I 00:29:27.410 --> 00:29:30.897 don't think he would have known me if he'd recognize, would have 00:29:30.930 --> 00:29:37.006 recognized me if he saw me on the street. But I did manage to get him to 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:42.447 come to the campus Matthews hall to speak to a joint meeting of the 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.887 student chapter in the Central Arizona chapter of the American Institute 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:52.937 of Architects. I had um suggested to him that he would come and just chat 00:29:52.970 --> 00:29:57.697 with the boys about architecture. But I made the mistake of putting a big 00:29:57.730 --> 00:30:02.786 upholstered chair out there sort of conspicuously for him to sit in and he 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:10.407 pulled out a manuscript, triple spaced and went on a considerable length. 00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:17.687 He had been under criticism for political views of some kind, but I 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:25.546 remember that day. He got here early and uh um my wife and and bobby 00:30:25.579 --> 00:30:32.877 drover, we're blessing the sandwiches and the drinks together. And uh my 00:30:32.910 --> 00:30:38.117 wife and came out with the play of sandwiches and ran into mr right, he 00:30:38.150 --> 00:30:43.407 grabbed a sandwich and picked up the the top thing, can't touch it. 00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:47.316 Somebody asked him what he would like to drink coffee with the juice of 00:30:47.349 --> 00:30:55.349 half a lemon. Uh He was such a wonderful character and and everybody 00:30:56.470 --> 00:31:01.796 admired him and worshiped him really in in architectural circles and 00:31:01.829 --> 00:31:08.107 properly. They should. I was young at the time, quite young and thought 00:31:08.140 --> 00:31:13.347 that anything was possible. And so when I was applying for a Arnold w 00:31:13.380 --> 00:31:20.736 Brunner fellowship, well established scholarship program to allow one to 00:31:20.769 --> 00:31:25.576 travel and study abroad, I wanted that very much and I thought it would be 00:31:25.609 --> 00:31:32.697 helpful if I got a recommendation from from Mr. Right, I 00:31:32.730 --> 00:31:38.536 was foolish, but I say I was young at the time. So I asked him for, he 00:31:38.569 --> 00:31:43.447 wrote and said the I know of no reason why Mr Elmore should not have this 00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:46.407 scholarship, 00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:50.907 I didn't get it. Not exactly high praise. 00:31:50.940 --> 00:31:58.940 Uh uh So what else? Well, I've heard some less flattering stories about 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:05.026 frank Lloyd wright. So some of the people in town in phoenix didn't pay 00:32:05.059 --> 00:32:10.107 his bills and things like that. Did you ever hear stories like that wealth 00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:16.707 ? There are always those um 00:32:16.740 --> 00:32:23.107 I don't know any unflattering. Well I guess the only one when one of his 00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:29.566 clients uh, complained that his roof leaked. Mr Wright said, move your 00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:31.907 chair. 00:32:31.940 --> 00:32:36.026 He was good at that. He was quite a character from what I understand when 00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:41.357 he came into phoenix, People noticed. And now also somebody told me a 00:32:41.390 --> 00:32:45.437 story about him here on campus with Doctor Gammage when they were making 00:32:45.470 --> 00:32:49.736 plans for the Gammage Auditorium. Were you involved? No, I was not 00:32:49.769 --> 00:32:53.967 involved in that. So even though you were the, you know, the architecture 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:58.306 school, you weren't, they didn't consult with you about that? No, that's 00:32:58.339 --> 00:33:03.717 right. We hadn't grown up far enough yet. Well, did you know about the 00:33:03.750 --> 00:33:08.917 plans that they were making? Oh yes, yes. And I guess at that time 00:33:08.950 --> 00:33:16.097 involved in the community as I was, I I had some thoughts about 00:33:16.130 --> 00:33:20.506 local architects having an opportunity. 00:33:20.539 --> 00:33:24.506 I think that 00:33:24.539 --> 00:33:29.506 whatever we do whatever anybody does, 00:33:29.539 --> 00:33:34.806 we should 00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:40.887 look at all the alternatives. Look at the costs and all the benefits of 00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:47.976 all the alternatives. Uh, that was a single minded choice and and a good 00:33:48.009 --> 00:33:54.316 one and the history of architecture is full of such such choices. Now. 00:33:54.349 --> 00:33:58.617 We're reading all about frank Gehry doing the Los Angeles Symphony Hall 00:33:58.650 --> 00:34:06.650 and the balboa Museum and things like that As an aside, I tend to think 00:34:06.890 --> 00:34:13.807 that that each architect with each building 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:21.840 is seeking to out shout the other architect and the result is 00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:29.787 architectural acrobatics. Each one is a, is a stunt and that happens a 00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:34.606 little bit here on our campus. 00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:40.336 But as I said earlier, College Avenue used to go through with automobiles 00:34:40.369 --> 00:34:48.369 serving the town of Tempe and it became Katie mole, which unites this 00:34:48.539 --> 00:34:54.166 campus as a pedestrian precinct and makes an entity of it and whatever the 00:34:54.199 --> 00:35:02.199 buildings are that don't much respect each other. Uh, it is now a unified 00:35:03.900 --> 00:35:09.916 campus with the Gammage Auditorium, the music building, the fine arts 00:35:09.949 --> 00:35:15.736 structure, the architecture building, all of them, uh, quite different 00:35:15.769 --> 00:35:22.597 from each other, but unified into a single campus with the, with the malls 00:35:22.630 --> 00:35:28.407 , uh, principle of them being the Katie mall and Gilbert Katie was, was 00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:34.936 really the prime mover with, with President Durham, uh, for all of this 00:35:34.969 --> 00:35:38.307 being established. 00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:43.717 So was there ever any of, for master plan? I know later in later years 00:35:43.750 --> 00:35:47.677 they did a master plan. But in the early years of the camp, Well, Dave 00:35:47.710 --> 00:35:55.617 fervor put it in his book of the master plan that I did in 54 had 00:35:55.650 --> 00:36:01.537 forgotten all about it and found it in my attic. And then in 60 of 00:36:01.570 --> 00:36:08.347 Planning Associates, the group that I identify a little further 00:36:08.380 --> 00:36:12.477 did two projects. One was for stanford Research, a convention center in 00:36:12.510 --> 00:36:16.637 downtown phoenix and the other was a master plan for the campus. And 00:36:16.670 --> 00:36:20.896 that's all printed in Dave's book, uh huh. 00:36:20.929 --> 00:36:25.637 How closely did they follow those plans? Oh, nobody ever follows a master 00:36:25.670 --> 00:36:32.497 plan a plan is something to be departed from, but only with good reason 00:36:32.530 --> 00:36:37.736 and so I guess there were lots of good reasons. No, I I look back on those 00:36:37.769 --> 00:36:42.296 things and I'm not real proud of them. But 00:36:42.329 --> 00:36:47.057 did the early plants um include the malls in that? Was that an early plan 00:36:47.090 --> 00:36:52.296 to get rid of it? Well, 00:36:52.329 --> 00:37:00.329 Dave quotes me in his book as, as being the one who suggested that college 00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:06.566 avenue be closed to vehicular traffic and become a pedestrian precinct. We 00:37:06.599 --> 00:37:14.599 put a big tall library over it for people to walk under. But 00:37:17.230 --> 00:37:25.230 no, Well, but point of that is that it that it's about them all, which has 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:29.896 such important 00:37:29.929 --> 00:37:35.997 role to play in this campus. 00:37:36.030 --> 00:37:38.296 Um 00:37:38.329 --> 00:37:42.706 you certainly, you, you started the College of Architecture basically from 00:37:42.739 --> 00:37:47.686 scratch. Can you talk about what, what were the key turning points? What 00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:53.497 was the key turning points of the growth of the college? 00:37:53.530 --> 00:38:01.530 The key points in the growth of the College of Architecture? 00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:11.066 Well, the accreditation was, was really the key to it. I have a picture of 00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:19.099 the accrediting team, a lunch in the President's residence. 00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:25.376 Several members of the Board of Regents were there. Dean's President, 00:38:25.409 --> 00:38:30.686 Durham Gilbert, Katie. Ah 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:38.719 that was the key. A key thing. Oh, that was in sixth. Okay, faculty hires 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.486 important, 00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:52.186 some of the, some of the key faculty that you hired? Well, as I said a 00:38:52.219 --> 00:38:54.956 little while ago, I wanted to talk about two students that was Benny 00:38:54.989 --> 00:38:57.787 Gonzalez and 00:38:57.820 --> 00:39:01.956 and frank Henry, there's one faculty member that I, I want to talk about 00:39:01.989 --> 00:39:09.106 and that's, that's cal strub who joined in 1961 just after we were 00:39:09.139 --> 00:39:15.117 accredited in the very next year. I've always said to anyone and everyone 00:39:15.150 --> 00:39:20.666 that one of the best things that I ever did as dean was to hire a cow, I 00:39:20.699 --> 00:39:25.526 can't take much credit for it because he and Sylvia, uh I wanted to get 00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:32.387 out of Los Angeles and they wanted to come here but carol, 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:38.736 uh huh students loved him, He loved students. He brought much of the 00:39:38.769 --> 00:39:46.436 inspiration on which our, our college would grow. There are others very 00:39:46.469 --> 00:39:50.686 able faculty who contributed 00:39:50.719 --> 00:39:53.387 an awful lot. 00:39:53.420 --> 00:39:59.077 But I'll just mention cal as, as one, you can mention more than one if 00:39:59.110 --> 00:40:05.836 you'd like. Well there's Marcus Whitman who came, he's an englishman who 00:40:05.869 --> 00:40:08.776 had taught at Vassar. 00:40:08.809 --> 00:40:15.006 In fact it happened that that the president of Vassar at that time, Ted 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:23.039 Irq was brother of my high school chum and I got a good recommendation 00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:28.066 from him on Marcus who was teaching there, he wrote on the public 00:40:28.099 --> 00:40:34.706 buildings of Williamsburg, he spent some, some, some time there and he did 00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:42.617 great things here as as well and students remember him uh very fondly. Uh 00:40:42.650 --> 00:40:46.977 both of them are gone now 00:40:47.010 --> 00:40:49.336 but 00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:55.256 there are others 00:40:55.289 --> 00:41:01.816 dave shots lee but he was after my time. Okay, I can't take, what about 00:41:01.849 --> 00:41:06.017 you? How do students remember you students, what, how do the students 00:41:06.050 --> 00:41:08.577 remember you? 00:41:08.610 --> 00:41:15.276 Oh, I'm not sure they do. Mm hmm. 00:41:15.309 --> 00:41:20.876 Well, some of them have been express 00:41:20.909 --> 00:41:25.177 gratitude for the, 00:41:25.210 --> 00:41:30.497 for the college that I put together. I mean that they, I think I put 00:41:30.530 --> 00:41:35.597 together. Uh huh. 00:41:35.630 --> 00:41:39.077 Okay. What 00:41:39.110 --> 00:41:43.927 one of the things that I've always heard about you was the project, I 00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.927 guess you'd call it where you had your students decide what they should do 00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:50.997 about the Salt River. Well, that's the second important thing. The first 00:41:51.030 --> 00:41:55.267 was to be accredited. Well, I guess the first was just too found the 00:41:55.300 --> 00:42:01.967 school because of what it has done, what it is doing and what it is 00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:07.197 capable of doing for the future with particular respect to this 00:42:07.230 --> 00:42:13.827 metropolitan community. And it was that kind of a project that uh, that we 00:42:13.860 --> 00:42:20.347 did, we did projects in the, in the local area habitually, that's where we 00:42:20.380 --> 00:42:24.967 focused our design programs and design problems on. I remember when I was 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:32.856 still teaching design, assigning uh, a laundromat on Mill Avenue, Can you 00:42:32.889 --> 00:42:40.697 imagine the laundromat on Mill Avenue Now we did a capital in Papago park 00:42:40.730 --> 00:42:46.566 in 1950 frank Lloyd wright. He did his in 1957. 00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:53.197 Ah Oh, I'm forever glad that neither one of them got built in, in, in 00:42:53.230 --> 00:42:58.117 Papago park, seen pictures of his in life magazine and I interviewed less 00:42:58.150 --> 00:43:03.467 Mahoney about that. But what was your design you talked to left Mahoney 00:43:03.500 --> 00:43:06.566 back in the seventies. 00:43:06.599 --> 00:43:11.436 Oh he told me stories about frank Lloyd Wright now, but tell me what was 00:43:11.469 --> 00:43:14.767 your design for the capital? 00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:22.557 There's a picture of it in the orange book with up under the stadium. Uh 00:43:22.590 --> 00:43:26.827 In 1950 I guess this would have been with President Gammage and Justice 00:43:26.860 --> 00:43:32.816 Applied and three of the students, it was a building reminiscent of the 00:43:32.849 --> 00:43:38.186 secretariat at the U. N. Buildings because that's where I had been working 00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:46.219 just before coming here. Uh Yet followed the philosophy 00:43:46.699 --> 00:43:50.467 more that 00:43:50.500 --> 00:43:57.666 Skidmore owings and Merrill followed 00:43:57.699 --> 00:44:03.456 who did a design and in fact were the architects of the Air Force Academy. 00:44:03.489 --> 00:44:10.967 But Le Corbusier and Gropius and Mies all did mechanical kinds of machine 00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:18.767 made things. That's where that's the baby do it. Uh and that's what our 00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:24.796 bill and we had four ft long fluorescent tubes inside to light it up. Uh 00:44:24.829 --> 00:44:29.416 and that was our design frank Lloyd Wright's design of course is well 00:44:29.449 --> 00:44:35.316 known. And and having brought up the Air Force Academy, there was a point 00:44:35.349 --> 00:44:41.327 and counterpoint there to uh right, I thought that the Air Force Academy 00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:48.256 should harmonize with the mountain backdrop, 00:44:48.289 --> 00:44:56.289 it should fit in as he so often said to its own setting wherever that was. 00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:04.367 And I think he did designs of the Air Force Academy as he did of of the 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:10.706 Arizona state capitol building in Papago park. Oh Skidmore owings and 00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:13.847 Merrill were selected. 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:19.566 Their theory was that the Air Force academy had to do with flight. This 00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:26.097 was something forward mechanical technological, It should stand on its own 00:45:26.130 --> 00:45:34.130 feet and express its function uh, against whatever the backdrop 00:45:35.889 --> 00:45:43.356 works in a little. Let's go back to the Salt River and what that project 00:45:43.389 --> 00:45:51.137 of how that came about. Well, 00:45:51.170 --> 00:45:56.456 in the years before we had developed the procedure of relating the design 00:45:56.489 --> 00:46:04.146 projects of each level, 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th to each other, selecting 00:46:04.179 --> 00:46:12.179 them from around the country around the community. Um, and it was in 19 60 00:46:13.980 --> 00:46:20.626 five or six that we did one called Valley Focus 66. That was the name of 00:46:20.659 --> 00:46:28.046 it. And it, uh, we made a publication on it. It had, it addressed canal 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:35.706 design. It made a plan for downtown Tempe, it did graphics and, and all 00:46:35.739 --> 00:46:41.327 manner of things that were tied together and, and put into a publication 00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:44.046 that jim wrap 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:51.747 put together and I thought that was, I thought that was uh, 00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:54.247 you're rubbish. 00:46:54.280 --> 00:47:01.407 I thought that the project had been so successful that the final faculty 00:47:01.440 --> 00:47:05.747 meeting that year, which was at Chico's, I think it was not far down the 00:47:05.780 --> 00:47:10.447 road here, a mexican restaurant. We used to have a lot of faculty meetings 00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:14.736 and have a little fun at them too. But I suggested, let's do something 00:47:14.769 --> 00:47:21.447 with the river. And so we did in that fall of of 66 00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:29.480 bob McConnell was the fifth year critic and he had 16 students that 00:47:30.380 --> 00:47:34.796 tramped up and down the river eroded on horseback, flew over in airplanes 00:47:34.829 --> 00:47:39.677 , talked to every agency around the valley that could have anything to do 00:47:39.710 --> 00:47:45.166 with the Salt river and build a model and came up with it and we presented 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:50.956 it in the student union building to community leaders and the picture of 00:47:50.989 --> 00:47:55.947 it is in the orange book there 00:47:55.980 --> 00:48:00.776 in March of 1967. I think it was some of the, some of the students were 00:48:00.809 --> 00:48:07.227 there and identified bob McConnell was not for which I'm very sorry but 00:48:07.260 --> 00:48:11.936 bob and I have maintained connection and incidentally he became dean of 00:48:11.969 --> 00:48:16.936 Architecture at the U. Of A and 00:48:16.969 --> 00:48:24.756 oh, incidental to that bob hershberger of our faculty also became dean of 00:48:24.789 --> 00:48:31.157 the U. Of A and decree bus who was associate dean after my time is now the 00:48:31.190 --> 00:48:35.936 Dean of architecture that you've a, so they are very much dependent upon 00:48:35.969 --> 00:48:43.969 us for uh, but bob bob was not in that picture, but he was the mentor that 00:48:44.710 --> 00:48:50.356 guided those 16 students well for the next three years we did design 00:48:50.389 --> 00:48:56.396 projects that we're focused on what they had done up and down the river. 00:48:56.429 --> 00:49:04.429 And then in March of 69 it was your, we convened about 80 business and 00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:10.407 civic leaders at the Safari hotel in Scottsdale and made this presentation 00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:17.807 , divided them into groups to recommend on various aspects of it and it 00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:24.097 wound up with the motion being made by lyric Maryland who was the 00:49:24.130 --> 00:49:30.727 president and founder of the Arizona Academy. The, mm hmm, organizers of 00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:38.537 the Arizona town halls, Laurie moved that the Valley Forward Association 00:49:38.570 --> 00:49:46.570 be asked to undertake the mhm funding management design and operation of 00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:55.157 the Rio salado project, making use of all resources, public and private 00:49:55.190 --> 00:50:00.606 and so that was seconded and that's what happened. Valley Forward was just 00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:04.026 forming at that time and I was one of the founding members of Valley 00:50:04.059 --> 00:50:09.026 Forward. So I became chairman of Valley forwards Rio salado committee. 00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:15.186 Valley Forward shepherded the project and kept it alive for the decade of 00:50:15.219 --> 00:50:17.677 the seventies, 00:50:17.710 --> 00:50:25.177 after which legislation was passed that that Valley forward had suggested 00:50:25.210 --> 00:50:31.956 and drafted creating the real celebrity development district and I was 00:50:31.989 --> 00:50:36.276 appointed to that. So I've lived with the real cilantro from from the 00:50:36.309 --> 00:50:42.986 beginning uh and uh the real slaughter development district commissioned a 00:50:43.019 --> 00:50:49.896 preliminary study that was done by uh los Angeles firm who now are located 00:50:49.929 --> 00:50:57.929 locally uh and put before the voters are very what ambitious 00:51:00.750 --> 00:51:07.727 program putting the whole thing together in one package and it was just 00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:11.407 too much for the voters 00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:18.077 and they voted it down. Uh Harry Mitchell, then mayor of of Tempe was on 00:51:18.110 --> 00:51:24.227 the board. Uh the real slow Development district board and came in the 00:51:24.260 --> 00:51:29.126 next morning. So we're gonna do it. And Tempe has done it. And and uh 00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:34.626 while I am often referred to as the father of the real salada project. 00:51:34.659 --> 00:51:40.486 it's the mayors of Tempe and the people who elected them that put the town 00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:46.236 lake where it is their everlasting credit and that has served I think as 00:51:46.269 --> 00:51:50.467 inspiration to phoenix to do what they're doing now with a five mile 00:51:50.500 --> 00:51:56.666 stretch of the river and so it all came out of that uh let's do something 00:51:56.699 --> 00:52:04.699 with the river business which started as a student project. Yeah, 00:52:08.050 --> 00:52:12.646 that has been acknowledged in, in all of the things that have been written 00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:17.236 about it since that. It did begin here in the college in uh that? S you, 00:52:17.269 --> 00:52:21.206 did you ever think in the early seventies when form value forward and 00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:29.239 we're going to do something with it that it would take this long. 00:52:29.949 --> 00:52:36.807 I don't believe that. However, thought about how long it would take. I 00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:44.197 thought only about the immediate next step ah but it didn't take quite a 00:52:44.230 --> 00:52:47.017 while, didn't it? 00:52:47.050 --> 00:52:54.816 Uh huh I think it was in the eighties that they put it up for a vote 87. 00:52:54.849 --> 00:52:57.517 So the 00:52:57.550 --> 00:53:04.717 real slow development district perished at that point. The vote was in 87 00:53:04.750 --> 00:53:08.217 but 00:53:08.250 --> 00:53:11.017 very soon 00:53:11.050 --> 00:53:19.050 the name of the real slaughter parkway was established and name, excuse me 00:53:20.250 --> 00:53:28.250 pam It's, I do want to say this, 00:53:31.349 --> 00:53:39.217 the rio salado parkway in in Tempe will be extended. 00:53:39.250 --> 00:53:43.217 I am sure one day 00:53:43.250 --> 00:53:51.250 55 miles to from Saguaro Lake to the Australia mountain regional park, 00:53:51.849 --> 00:53:57.767 it's already begun Tempe has got it in place. It's on phoenix's maps, it's 00:53:57.800 --> 00:54:05.597 on Mesa's maps, it's going to happen one day a parkway for vehicles and 00:54:05.630 --> 00:54:11.967 then up parallel or comparable parkway for pedestrians and equestrians and 00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:18.396 bicyclists and, and others along this flowing stream that will connect 00:54:18.429 --> 00:54:25.847 leaks here and there. Perhaps none as ambitious as, as town lake. But uh, 00:54:25.880 --> 00:54:31.646 there'll be at least a trickle of water all the way along. And that will 00:54:31.679 --> 00:54:38.486 happen maybe in another 30 years. I like to think that there can be a, and 00:54:38.519 --> 00:54:45.307 an inaugural Real Seletto marathon that will start at both ends and finish 00:54:45.340 --> 00:54:51.157 in Sun Devil Stadium. Ah, there is so much opportunity for this to happen 00:54:51.190 --> 00:54:57.706 and the reality is that it's at the very heart of this metropolitan area. 00:54:57.739 --> 00:55:03.506 What happens there is metropolitan infill 00:55:03.539 --> 00:55:07.506 instead of spoil 00:55:07.539 --> 00:55:12.907 and there are ways for this city to grow that 00:55:12.940 --> 00:55:16.717 that will encourage that. 00:55:16.750 --> 00:55:20.506 I have proposed an aerial city 00:55:20.539 --> 00:55:28.227 with tall buildings over transit stations where people who can afford to 00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:35.287 live on desert acres, but would prefer convenient access to the office and 00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:43.320 to all of the governmental financial cultural sporting museum facilities 00:55:43.530 --> 00:55:51.530 just by going downstairs and getting on the train. Uh, 00:55:51.539 --> 00:55:57.307 and, and real slaughter is really at the heart of all of that. It's just 00:55:57.340 --> 00:56:02.177 an opportunity and in the student's language, see if I can remember it, 00:56:02.210 --> 00:56:10.210 they said they referred to it as a, a vast reservoir of open space, unique 00:56:10.519 --> 00:56:16.347 to the heart of a great city. That's what they said. And that's what's 00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:20.396 being exploited now. Uh, 00:56:20.429 --> 00:56:25.566 I like to use the word exploited because despite its sinister implication 00:56:25.599 --> 00:56:33.599 , it is possible to exploit things for the good. And, and that's what's 00:56:34.909 --> 00:56:40.197 happening with me with a lot of, I think uh, we suggested at one point the 00:56:40.230 --> 00:56:47.497 possibility of the olympic games or a World's Fair. Uh, there was a 00:56:47.530 --> 00:56:51.816 regional urban design assistance team of the college of, of the American 00:56:51.849 --> 00:56:59.177 Institute of Architects that came here in 1970 for and gave us what may be 00:56:59.210 --> 00:57:06.836 the first glimpse we had of a single metropolitan plan with the peripheral 00:57:06.869 --> 00:57:12.236 green Sward around the outside with the freeway net in its then proposed 00:57:12.269 --> 00:57:15.796 form rapid transit 00:57:15.829 --> 00:57:20.017 and the World's Fair. There's a group working on the world's Fair now in, 00:57:20.050 --> 00:57:28.050 in ah for six or eight years out because of my connection with Real Solaro. 00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:38.599 Their, their purpose is to exploit Rios Lotto beneficially to provide the 00:57:39.630 --> 00:57:44.867 impetus for this vast reservoir of space to be developed to its highest 00:57:44.900 --> 00:57:49.097 advantage. Uh, 00:57:49.130 --> 00:57:57.130 and the world's Fair would be a first significant event in that regard. So 00:57:59.630 --> 00:58:06.077 it's going to take 30 or it's going to keep on going forever. It's going 00:58:06.110 --> 00:58:11.637 to keep building and and, and and the Metropolitan community will profit 00:58:11.670 --> 00:58:15.287 friar from the beginning. 00:58:15.320 --> 00:58:20.307 And even go to the point of remodeling part of it someday. It's, it's now 00:58:20.340 --> 00:58:27.046 the focus of metropolitan phoenix any of those original students that we 00:58:27.079 --> 00:58:33.017 see them when, when, when the town lake was dedicated bob McConnell came 00:58:33.050 --> 00:58:36.517 up from Tucson and there were six of our students who were still in town 00:58:36.550 --> 00:58:40.267 that were there and we got pictures of them and everything. And we get 00:58:40.300 --> 00:58:46.986 together now and then. Uh there were 16. Originally. One has died, one is 00:58:47.019 --> 00:58:55.019 in Australia. Uh, I could almost tell you about all of them. All right. 00:58:55.619 --> 00:58:58.887 I told you I rambled. 00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:02.796 I've got lots of rambling questions too. I just want you to reflect a 00:59:02.829 --> 00:59:06.896 little bit of when you first came to A. S. U. And looked at the campus and 00:59:06.929 --> 00:59:10.477 when you look at the campus today, what do you think about the way it's 00:59:10.510 --> 00:59:13.686 changed? 00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:21.719 Well, it has, it's a sea change on the desert. Um Let me start at Goodwin 00:59:22.769 --> 00:59:29.276 Stadium where we had our first courses. I have a picture of the west 00:59:29.309 --> 00:59:36.017 facade of, of, of Goodwin Stadium where there were the initials in letters 00:59:36.050 --> 00:59:44.050 about two ft high or something like this, A. S. T. See. And the S. The A. 00:59:45.219 --> 00:59:50.717 And the S. Are still were still prominently there in this picture and the 00:59:50.750 --> 00:59:56.086 T. For teachers and see for college had been obliterated. Uh, And now of 00:59:56.119 --> 00:59:59.146 course the building's gone and there's all the development of the college 00:59:59.179 --> 01:00:03.057 of business that's happened there at that time. There were curbs and 01:00:03.090 --> 01:00:11.090 sidewalks on on college Avenue. Uh And where we built our Kwanza hut, just 01:00:11.309 --> 01:00:18.477 north of Goodwood Stadium and is now gone. Just north of that was the 01:00:18.510 --> 01:00:26.510 student union side where there was nothing in, in 19 49 Dave's book would 01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:36.267 show that better. But and there was a dormitory, East hall was where the 01:00:36.300 --> 01:00:42.867 Hayden library is now. 01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:50.077 And it was a barber shop about where the nursing building is, 01:00:50.110 --> 01:00:52.776 where the 01:00:52.809 --> 01:01:00.809 architecture foundation building is under construction now east of college. 01:01:01.190 --> 01:01:08.876 North of of university was the old town. And I have a collection of 01:01:08.909 --> 01:01:16.909 pictures that I took in 1956. I think it was of Old Town. Mm hmm. That's 01:01:18.010 --> 01:01:26.010 another part of the change. Uh, there was a bungalow um, for the new work 01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:36.039 for the 1970 College of Architecture building was that was removed. Ah 01:01:37.309 --> 01:01:40.376 there were, there were 01:01:40.409 --> 01:01:44.706 well, as I've said that it's a sea change that that that has taken place 01:01:44.739 --> 01:01:51.396 there. But the big event I'll repeat was the, was the establishment of the 01:01:51.429 --> 01:01:55.586 malls which have knit all this together to be such a wonderful place for 01:01:55.619 --> 01:02:01.467 students to learn and teachers to teach. What do you think about the sort 01:02:01.500 --> 01:02:05.956 of a hodgepodge of architectural styles though everything from the art 01:02:05.989 --> 01:02:13.989 museum to the new Well, that's what I said a moment ago pam that 01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:22.767 each architect seems to want to do his own thing without high regard for 01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:30.657 what's nearby. I don't know what would have happened otherwise. And that's 01:02:30.690 --> 01:02:35.477 why I think it's so doubly important that we have the malls to, to tie it 01:02:35.510 --> 01:02:41.066 all together. Mm hmm. There is some 01:02:41.099 --> 01:02:47.617 super architecture here that would be referred to by others. I don't like 01:02:47.650 --> 01:02:55.467 the word but as world class and there's others that are rather indifferent 01:02:55.500 --> 01:03:00.686 but it makes a wonderful campus. What are some of the examples that would 01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:03.666 be called world class? 01:03:03.699 --> 01:03:10.367 The coming core building which I haven't examined closely. But I know well 01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:16.117 , the work of Eddie jones who is the architect and of course antoine pre 01:03:16.150 --> 01:03:24.150 dark. Uh, I think the, the architects of our new building, the 18 99 18 89 01:03:26.460 --> 01:03:30.856 architecture building did a masterful job. I think it's wonderful the way 01:03:30.889 --> 01:03:36.986 the they to relate together. Although quite different from each other. Mm 01:03:37.019 --> 01:03:45.019 hmm in detail of for instance, what the exterior walls appear to be. Uh, 01:03:45.019 --> 01:03:49.227 but functionally, I I think it works wonderfully well, particularly that 01:03:49.260 --> 01:03:54.447 bridge that connects the two where wonderful events have happened will 01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:59.267 always happen. Uh, 01:03:59.300 --> 01:04:04.956 well, I guess those are prime examples. 01:04:04.989 --> 01:04:11.097 Um, did you have some questions dave Okay. 01:04:11.130 --> 01:04:17.856 Before you start, he left, he didn't mention gamut, this one 01:04:17.889 --> 01:04:24.256 with World Class. The Gammage Auditorium. If you talk to look, we talked 01:04:24.289 --> 01:04:27.157 that 01:04:27.190 --> 01:04:30.287 Gammage Auditorium. Is that one that you would consider to be world class 01:04:30.320 --> 01:04:36.927 too. Anything that right does is it's kind of an interesting story about 01:04:36.960 --> 01:04:44.960 his is an adaptation of something he did in Baghdad. Ah And 01:04:52.420 --> 01:04:56.456 I guess I would say that 01:04:56.489 --> 01:05:02.356 that's the most important thing about the Gammage Auditorium, is that 01:05:02.389 --> 01:05:05.456 right? Did it? 01:05:05.489 --> 01:05:12.686 And it has that kind of a stature that now attracts the final presidential 01:05:12.719 --> 01:05:14.956 debate 01:05:14.989 --> 01:05:22.380 coming up. Let's see here. Uh Oh, it's a marvelous facility. It really is. 01:05:23.389 --> 01:05:25.389 Was the original, Did it survived the bombardment in Baghdad? They never 01:05:28.210 --> 01:05:33.956 built in Baghdad. No, 01:05:33.989 --> 01:05:35.876 I knew it was somewhere in the Middle East. I didn't realize it was 01:05:35.909 --> 01:05:38.856 Baghdad, 01:05:38.889 --> 01:05:43.677 They didn't build it. No, it was just a design. He had made just like the 01:05:43.710 --> 01:05:48.637 design for the Arizona capitol. He did a lot of designs that didn't get 01:05:48.670 --> 01:05:56.670 built, don't we all? I made a design for the, for the Arizona capitol 01:05:57.570 --> 01:06:01.396 that I never published. I don't think anybody ever saw it. It's one of the 01:06:01.429 --> 01:06:06.686 few drawings that I made, but it's quite accurate representation in very 01:06:06.719 --> 01:06:14.719 fine lines of the east facade of the capitol. And in front of it was two 01:06:15.789 --> 01:06:23.617 stories of parking topped with a, with a park uh with plants on it and and 01:06:23.650 --> 01:06:29.427 ancillary buildings along each side stretching all the way down town. And 01:06:29.460 --> 01:06:33.747 and and creating a a walkable 01:06:33.780 --> 01:06:36.936 rooftop garden 01:06:36.969 --> 01:06:41.706 connecting the capital with with downtown. I got all enthused about that. 01:06:41.739 --> 01:06:49.126 I'm I take after my daughter with my little enthusiasms but ah I sort of 01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:53.666 petered out on that. I didn't, maybe they took your idea and did the Deck 01:06:53.699 --> 01:06:58.997 Park Tunnel over by the freeway. 01:06:59.030 --> 01:07:04.456 No, they're going to, I didn't hear a panel the, the tunnel that over the 01:07:04.489 --> 01:07:10.387 freeway that has a park on. Well, I was involved in that too. Yeah, I was 01:07:10.420 --> 01:07:17.097 extension of that idea. Well, I was aesthetic consultant with Johannesson 01:07:17.130 --> 01:07:23.427 , juran, the, the engineers who were commissioned to produce alternative 01:07:23.460 --> 01:07:31.460 designs for the stretch from I 17 out through political Park, we were told 01:07:32.440 --> 01:07:40.440 to do depressed on grade and Ariel up and down. I was very enthused about 01:07:40.460 --> 01:07:44.017 the aerial concept and the helical coils for which I was primarily 01:07:44.050 --> 01:07:48.847 responsible uh, jean Pulliam of the republic didn't like it and he didn't 01:07:48.880 --> 01:07:55.947 want a freeway at all and succeeded in in holding it up for about 10 years 01:07:55.980 --> 01:08:01.827 I think now is I as uh well, I'm very glad that that it's not 100 ft high 01:08:01.860 --> 01:08:06.947 because I've been working on an aerial transit system up and down Central 01:08:06.980 --> 01:08:13.847 Avenue as an alternative to the street chorus. Um I don't know how I would 01:08:13.880 --> 01:08:19.746 have connected with 100 100 ft high thing. And actually, as I look back at 01:08:19.779 --> 01:08:23.937 our drawings for the depressed concept with which has turned into the 01:08:23.970 --> 01:08:31.336 tunnel, I think ours was a better design in that it was open, it was 01:08:31.369 --> 01:08:36.987 depressed like it is now, but the sides were sloping grass and it was 01:08:37.020 --> 01:08:42.246 still a park right down, like it would have been on the surface. Uh, so I 01:08:42.279 --> 01:08:45.937 guess I 01:08:45.970 --> 01:08:52.737 I'm not too happy about everything that we've, we've done, but 01:08:52.770 --> 01:08:57.237 finished, it certainly is maturing? 01:08:57.270 --> 01:09:03.536 I think I probably didn't answer your question there. They just catch 01:09:03.569 --> 01:09:09.836 trigger your mind. Maybe it's not worth too much time, but john yelling 01:09:09.869 --> 01:09:14.687 and the solar house and that competition. Gary Herberger was involved. You 01:09:14.720 --> 01:09:21.237 brought in, want to say anything about that. I have a picture of the jury 01:09:21.270 --> 01:09:27.487 up at El Tovar at the Grand Canyon. It was a very distinguished jury. I 01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:29.996 don't know 01:09:30.029 --> 01:09:33.796 if everybody would recognize these names but not owings of Skidmore owings 01:09:33.829 --> 01:09:38.317 and Merrill was was one of them Federal Bluesky who was Portland's 01:09:38.350 --> 01:09:45.826 architect and Dean at MIT Carlos Contreras, an architect from Mexico Tom 01:09:45.859 --> 01:09:51.437 Creighton, the editor of Progressive Architecture magazine 01:09:51.470 --> 01:09:57.857 and Jim Elmore because they had to have a local and so we had the jury 01:09:57.890 --> 01:10:05.890 there that, that selected the design of a young architect from the 01:10:06.010 --> 01:10:11.586 University of Minnesota, I think, collaborating with architects from Salt 01:10:11.619 --> 01:10:18.557 Lake City, which was built on Shea boulevard at about miller, I think it 01:10:18.590 --> 01:10:24.517 was not very successful because it was in the wrong place. And but when 01:10:24.550 --> 01:10:29.956 Dave mentions this, I came to mind this picture that I took of that jury 01:10:29.989 --> 01:10:35.477 standing on the steps of El Tovar in the bright sunlight, there's a good 01:10:35.510 --> 01:10:41.696 picture and and Gary Herberger is there? He was in college at the time and 01:10:41.729 --> 01:10:46.786 this was a solar house that they built. Yeah. Did you think at that time 01:10:46.819 --> 01:10:51.427 that solar was going to become more common? 01:10:51.460 --> 01:10:57.397 Yeah, it had to be, I mean it hadn't, he had always played a rule of the 01:10:57.430 --> 01:11:05.430 sun. Not quite so technologically. I think even more now the photo 01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:12.227 photovoltaic arrays dave, you would know more about that 01:11:12.260 --> 01:11:19.286 offer the opportunity. And in the proposal I have for this high rise Ariel 01:11:19.319 --> 01:11:25.027 village. Uh, the top has a sloping 01:11:25.060 --> 01:11:31.387 votre vote, take a read a panel of 88,000 square feet which would produce 01:11:31.420 --> 01:11:38.956 , I have explored it, enough electricity for that whole village of 1000 or 01:11:38.989 --> 01:11:42.326 so people. Oh, 01:11:42.359 --> 01:11:49.027 I told you I'd ramble, john Yellen. Do you have any special words? Hello 01:11:49.060 --> 01:11:57.060 john yellow. It is, is an architect, not an architect, is a faculty member 01:11:57.460 --> 01:12:05.217 that I would rank about with cal straw. But I think so far his, his 01:12:05.250 --> 01:12:09.517 right international. 01:12:09.550 --> 01:12:15.756 Um, mm hmm. The place is 01:12:15.789 --> 01:12:18.416 john, 01:12:18.449 --> 01:12:26.449 when I was dean, we only had uh, budget place lines for a part time people 01:12:26.949 --> 01:12:32.696 and john taught courses for me that we're beneath his dignity was 01:12:32.729 --> 01:12:37.756 mechanical equipment in buildings. He was very good at it. But he had 01:12:37.789 --> 01:12:42.906 bigger ideas than that. And it was john that got me into it. It was john 01:12:42.939 --> 01:12:49.817 that to put this whole living with the sun together. There is a big book 01:12:49.850 --> 01:12:57.796 on that, that, that shows all of the uh huh uh, competitors works. Uh, and 01:12:57.829 --> 01:13:04.416 everything. No, john was, it was a substantial 01:13:04.449 --> 01:13:10.626 contribute to the excellence of our faculty actually. He became a full 01:13:10.659 --> 01:13:15.746 time faculty member after my time as did George christian some an awfully 01:13:15.779 --> 01:13:23.779 good architect too. I retained George because he had just come from I I t 01:13:23.899 --> 01:13:29.256 working with hills, somebody in East Van der Rohe's school on city 01:13:29.289 --> 01:13:34.076 planning and I asked George to teach us city planning course. And again 01:13:34.109 --> 01:13:40.687 after my time it was possible for George to join full time. And George 01:13:40.720 --> 01:13:46.166 used to take the field trips to Los Angeles or san Francisco with a group 01:13:46.199 --> 01:13:51.977 of students and the process that that carol had been doing and and that 01:13:52.010 --> 01:13:57.107 others have been doing. That was a feature of our program every spring? Uh 01:13:57.140 --> 01:14:01.796 student annual field trip. Huh, john yelling. I know he was a real 01:14:01.829 --> 01:14:07.456 proponent of solar because I remember doing a story with him around 1979 01:14:07.489 --> 01:14:14.006 or so where he had a solar air conditioner on his house that he was trying 01:14:14.039 --> 01:14:19.656 out. So did he really get more things going in that solar area? Yes. And 01:14:19.689 --> 01:14:21.906 he inspired 01:14:21.939 --> 01:14:27.027 the guy who followed him and whose name? I don't remember who and and Jeff 01:14:27.060 --> 01:14:33.107 Cook stepped really into into it, 01:14:33.140 --> 01:14:39.196 Jeff who passed away not, not long ago. Yeah, 01:14:39.229 --> 01:14:46.406 yeah, that was sort of after my time. 01:14:46.439 --> 01:14:51.607 The question I have, what, 01:14:51.640 --> 01:14:57.107 what, what have you been doing since you retired? 01:14:57.140 --> 01:15:02.126 Am I on now? Well, this was a sponsored study, not in the college of 01:15:02.159 --> 01:15:10.107 architecture, but just for me. Uh, and I mentioned that simply to 01:15:10.140 --> 01:15:17.607 date my interest in transit. It revived 01:15:17.640 --> 01:15:25.640 when the conversations began about light rail in phoenix. And so in 1996 01:15:27.439 --> 01:15:33.406 I went to a program at which it was being discussed 01:15:33.439 --> 01:15:38.416 and at the end of the program, I sent my 1970 studies as I'm thinking, all 01:15:38.449 --> 01:15:44.906 they had to do was look at it and start to build it. Ah but then I got 01:15:44.939 --> 01:15:49.017 obsessed with it and that's the proper word. I haven't really worked on 01:15:49.050 --> 01:15:57.050 much else except this and it's been fruitless. Um, 01:15:57.310 --> 01:16:01.296 I've completed a proposal 01:16:01.329 --> 01:16:08.296 and have made a four page, four pages of extracts, 01:16:08.329 --> 01:16:13.397 which I've sent to a number of people who have been with me 01:16:13.430 --> 01:16:17.597 Vern sway back uh, 01:16:17.630 --> 01:16:21.527 who doesn't want to be identified. I mean, all of this. The problem is the 01:16:21.560 --> 01:16:28.887 political angle here. It's, it's, it's a unpopular thing to do. I have 01:16:28.920 --> 01:16:33.796 sent one letter to the Arizona Republic. 01:16:33.829 --> 01:16:40.956 Well, my, my proposal is, is for aerial transit above the middle of 01:16:40.989 --> 01:16:47.307 streets not interfering with traffic at all. And in so many other ways, I 01:16:47.340 --> 01:16:54.296 asked simply that that there be a comparison of surface with alternative 01:16:54.329 --> 01:16:57.696 two 01:16:57.729 --> 01:17:04.687 to either verify or refute the claims of both of both the streetcars and, 01:17:04.720 --> 01:17:07.996 and, and my proposal 01:17:08.029 --> 01:17:14.807 so that we could see which would better serve Glendale Central avenue 01:17:14.840 --> 01:17:22.840 downtown phoenix, South phoenix, sky harbor the writer the future 01:17:23.489 --> 01:17:30.987 and the region ah that's what my proposal is about and those who have been 01:17:31.020 --> 01:17:38.737 willing to say so recognize that, that Ariel is infinitely superior. It 01:17:38.770 --> 01:17:44.727 not only provides better service, but opens the opportunity for the aerial 01:17:44.760 --> 01:17:51.826 village that I alluded to. Uh, a little while ago. So three weeks or so 01:17:51.859 --> 01:17:59.859 ago, the Republic in its issues column of the uh, sunday paper published 01:18:01.880 --> 01:18:08.256 too special to the Republic. They were one was by skip Rimsza with all of 01:18:08.289 --> 01:18:15.416 the laudatory comments that he's famous for. The other was a guy whose 01:18:15.449 --> 01:18:20.607 name I can't remember from the Goldwater Institute, who the title of his 01:18:20.640 --> 01:18:27.387 was Maricopa county voters. You're being railroaded. 01:18:27.420 --> 01:18:33.746 Well, this seemed to me to, to invite, uh, an opposite comment. And so I 01:18:33.779 --> 01:18:39.847 mailed one the next morning and I have provided copies of that to valley 01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:46.887 forward it at their annual retreat of it was not published. And so I'm 01:18:46.920 --> 01:18:50.956 preparing another now to send for it and I'm sending them both return 01:18:50.989 --> 01:18:54.286 receipt requested. 01:18:54.319 --> 01:19:01.107 This is an example of the power of the press. Uh, I'm not trying to sell 01:19:01.140 --> 01:19:06.737 my design. I'm trying to sell them that they need to make the design. 01:19:06.770 --> 01:19:11.126 Having considered all the alternatives and all the costs and all the 01:19:11.159 --> 01:19:14.437 benefits of all the alternatives and that would let us know which is the 01:19:14.470 --> 01:19:22.147 better thing to do. They claim that the 1989 program uh, was defeated by 01:19:22.180 --> 01:19:25.717 the voters and the businessmen in tall buildings on central I don't know 01:19:25.750 --> 01:19:32.687 didn't want anything Ariel out there. And besides, aerial costs more than 01:19:32.720 --> 01:19:35.786 than the surface. 01:19:35.819 --> 01:19:43.819 Well, dollar wise, that may be, and, and probably will be, but it neglects 01:19:46.020 --> 01:19:52.126 the value of two lanes of traffic up and down the arterials where the 01:19:52.159 --> 01:19:57.256 streetcars go, where automobiles used to go. That's a sacrifice. That's 01:19:57.289 --> 01:20:04.166 worth an awful lot of money. And is the possibility of this aerial city 01:20:04.199 --> 01:20:10.076 that I was proposing. So I'm not trying to sell that because it would sell 01:20:10.109 --> 01:20:15.746 itself if anybody ever saw it, which 01:20:15.779 --> 01:20:20.866 it begins to look like, like, like they're not going to see it. And the 01:20:20.899 --> 01:20:23.916 only thing left for me is gonna be to throw myself in front of the 01:20:23.949 --> 01:20:30.376 streetcar and then everybody, everybody will be, will be sorry that they 01:20:30.409 --> 01:20:35.006 let that happen or maybe they won't be. It sounds to me like you're a man 01:20:35.039 --> 01:20:39.887 ahead of your time designing the Rio Solano, 30 years before they built it. 01:20:39.920 --> 01:20:43.446 Now, you've designed an aerial city probably 50 years before they'll 01:20:43.479 --> 01:20:48.586 build it. It's too late. It's too late for phoenix. If we start, if we 01:20:48.619 --> 01:20:54.777 bring back the streetcar, which we took out in 1948 01:20:54.810 --> 01:21:02.810 that will introduce ongoing investment, that it will be unlikely to be 01:21:03.319 --> 01:21:09.777 abandoned. The time is now. I mean, that's 01:21:09.810 --> 01:21:12.470 you asked thequestion