WEBVTT 00:00:00.340 --> 00:00:07.226 Today is Tuesday 24 April 2012 we're doing an interview for the Arizona 00:00:07.259 --> 00:00:12.937 State University retirees association video history project we are located 00:00:12.970 --> 00:00:18.096 today at the community services building on curry road in Tempe. I am 00:00:18.129 --> 00:00:23.166 David shots lee professor emeritus. The technical sports staff today is 00:00:23.199 --> 00:00:29.817 richard hey for operating the audio and linda vance coy operating the 00:00:29.850 --> 00:00:35.107 camera and also chair of the video history project. 00:00:35.140 --> 00:00:41.546 Also in attendance is Barbara Bradford. Please introduce yourself stating 00:00:41.579 --> 00:00:47.406 your name, your years of service today? S you and your highest position. 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:53.046 Um I'm Darryl S bach. I was born in Carey Ohio and I came to Arizona State 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:59.777 University in january of 1976. It's not clear when I retired Although I 00:00:59.810 --> 00:01:06.936 think I officially and probably recorded is retiring in about 2002. I went 00:01:06.969 --> 00:01:11.277 to halftime and and I spent a little bit of time following that doing some 00:01:11.310 --> 00:01:15.956 special project work for the border regions. And then I used a way after 00:01:15.989 --> 00:01:21.436 that 20 let our viewers know a little about your early life and how your 00:01:21.469 --> 00:01:28.617 experiences prepared you for your career at A. S. U. First when and where 00:01:28.650 --> 00:01:31.397 were you born? 00:01:31.430 --> 00:01:38.176 Well as I say I was born in Carey Ohio. I went to School their K through 00:01:38.209 --> 00:01:44.307 12. I am eventually 00:01:44.340 --> 00:01:50.107 through some very good circumstances and the 00:01:50.140 --> 00:01:54.977 help of high school principals and others that took an interest in some of 00:01:55.010 --> 00:01:59.107 their students went to the University of twitter got a bachelor's in 00:01:59.140 --> 00:02:04.036 mechanical engineering. I fell in love with computing. My last semester in 00:02:04.069 --> 00:02:08.126 college because my department chair dr kirkpatrick of mechanical 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:13.147 engineering had gotten the first IBM computer while the first computer of 00:02:13.180 --> 00:02:20.976 any sort on campus and through discussions with him, I ended up being the 00:02:21.009 --> 00:02:24.696 first full time employee at the University of Toledo, dealing with 00:02:24.729 --> 00:02:30.166 computers and at that time it was primarily academic, although eventually 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.406 I got involved with a little bit of the administrative activities. Um We 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:39.797 had an IBM 16 20 for the academic side of the house And an IBM 1401 for 00:02:39.830 --> 00:02:46.927 the admin. Um And as the years went on, technology changed, things 00:02:46.960 --> 00:02:53.936 happened. Um And then eventually I came to the issue and january 76 going 00:02:53.969 --> 00:02:59.136 back to the early days in Carey Ohio, tell us a little about Kerry the 00:02:59.169 --> 00:03:04.346 town and what happened there, Carrie is most prominent in my mind, at 00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:08.307 least for two 00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:16.106 yes, two major things. There's a large catholic shrine church there and 00:03:16.139 --> 00:03:22.117 they had as their primary industry, a large hole in the ground limestone 00:03:22.150 --> 00:03:30.150 quarry and they made line and it coated the city pretty well, it was very 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:37.126 much a farm sort of community. Um even though there was a little bit of 00:03:37.159 --> 00:03:42.027 industry, I think the population of the city was around the city, the town 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:45.997 , It's around 38:00 00:03:46.030 --> 00:03:50.147 and it's not much larger than that today. It's a very been very stable 00:03:50.180 --> 00:03:53.946 community for many years. So you had explosions during the night, I guess 00:03:53.979 --> 00:04:01.979 from the quarry. Well, watching the, I was a good student. My family 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:04.147 encouraged 00:04:04.180 --> 00:04:09.267 the academic side of things. We were farm family. My mother and father 00:04:09.300 --> 00:04:15.606 both came from that sort of a background, but I just was doing what kids 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:20.947 do in a little town like that. And I tried hard to do it. Well, it 00:04:20.980 --> 00:04:24.947 probably wasn't until I was in high school that there was any real 00:04:24.980 --> 00:04:30.887 significant indication that I might be sort of technologically oriented. I 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:36.796 did well in chemistry and physics and math and had some really good 00:04:36.829 --> 00:04:42.197 teachers in those areas. And the principal of the high school took some 00:04:42.230 --> 00:04:49.406 note of that and he's the one that really encouraged me two 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:53.606 go to college because I told him when we first talked, well, I'll probably 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:57.736 be going over to the porcelain factory and trying to get a job where my 00:04:57.769 --> 00:05:03.906 dad worked and he says, well you can probably 00:05:03.939 --> 00:05:08.656 do something a little more academic if you put your mind to it. So at any 00:05:08.689 --> 00:05:12.296 rate with a little bit of help from him and probably some letters that I 00:05:12.329 --> 00:05:16.207 don't know about. He got me to the University of Toledo where I got a 00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:21.507 freshman scholarship and once that happened, I was hooked pretty much on 00:05:21.540 --> 00:05:29.540 that as a path from my next few years. Um, there was also national defense 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:33.387 loans at that time. So once you've got your foot in the door was fairly 00:05:33.420 --> 00:05:37.267 easy to stay there as long as you did a little bit of work in this class. 00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:40.306 So did you have any musical 00:05:40.339 --> 00:05:47.486 Background? Yeah, I started playing my Granddad's cornet in the 5th grade. 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:51.007 It's now a little over 100 years old I guess. And I still get it out once 00:05:51.040 --> 00:05:54.606 in a while. But I, 00:05:54.639 --> 00:06:00.707 I really enjoyed the music, I enjoyed the camaraderie of that. People are 00:06:00.740 --> 00:06:05.967 important and things that I've done, the association with others is 00:06:06.000 --> 00:06:12.106 important. At any rate. My mother didn't, I really liked the idea even 00:06:12.139 --> 00:06:16.606 though I was a big husky guy of football and things of that sort. So she 00:06:16.639 --> 00:06:22.406 was glad to encourage the music side of things. And um, I did some, some 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:29.306 fairly good things with music. I managed to continue that and at the 00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:35.327 University of Toledo as well and had a great time being a real amateur 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:39.187 with a bunch of professionals in the music school at the University of 00:06:39.220 --> 00:06:45.866 Toledo. I um For some strange reason, got to play 2nd chair behind a 00:06:45.899 --> 00:06:53.697 tremendous trumpet player and it was just a very nice augmentation to 00:06:53.730 --> 00:06:58.986 other things that young people do. So the University of Toledo, you got in 00:06:59.019 --> 00:07:05.587 with the computers and once you graduated, what, what did you do with that 00:07:05.620 --> 00:07:12.137 experience? Well, the very last semester that I was in um, my 00:07:12.170 --> 00:07:16.887 undergraduate program at the University of Toledo, I needed a course to 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:21.637 round things out and I took a four trend programming course. It was the 00:07:21.670 --> 00:07:25.447 only computer course that was really offered there. And at that same time 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:28.286 , doctor Kirkpatrick, the head of the mechanical engineering department 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:34.567 where I was housed um Had gotten an NSF grant and the university installed 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:40.887 its first computer in IBM 1620. And I remember coming back from a job 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:45.796 interview, some engineering company in indiana, I don't even remember who 00:07:45.829 --> 00:07:49.486 it was now. I said, you know, those engineers are really missing the boat 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:54.837 , there's so much of what they do that they could do so much quicker and 00:07:54.870 --> 00:07:59.637 more accurately and things of that sort if they use the computer. And so 00:07:59.670 --> 00:08:04.627 he said, well you're getting kind of interested in this stuff, you're 00:08:04.660 --> 00:08:09.447 taking my course, you're doing well with that and everything, would you be 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:13.777 interested in working in the field of computing? I said, well, you know, I 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:18.587 don't know, it's not exactly mechanical engineering. And he said, yeah, 00:08:18.620 --> 00:08:23.096 but when you have an interest you should probably pursue it. And I, he 00:08:23.129 --> 00:08:29.056 talked to me a little bit and I said, well what are you suggesting? He 00:08:29.089 --> 00:08:33.866 said, well we need to hire someone to run this, I'm in charge. Doctor 00:08:33.899 --> 00:08:38.407 Kirkpatrick said I'm in charge, but I have this academic program to run 00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:41.886 and things of that sort and it would be really nice to have someone that 00:08:41.919 --> 00:08:46.167 we could sort of turn the day to day over two. And so as a result I became 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:51.146 the first computer employee and essentially ran what was the academic 00:08:51.179 --> 00:08:57.096 computing facility at the University of Toronto. Um After a few years some 00:08:57.129 --> 00:09:02.106 people in the administration thought they should 00:09:02.139 --> 00:09:06.327 computerized some of the things that they were doing which were basically 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:11.376 with nothing but punch cards and sorting and collating and doing funny 00:09:11.409 --> 00:09:18.667 things that way. And so we were A participant in getting an IBM 1401 into 00:09:18.700 --> 00:09:24.807 that operation. Um From there we grew we ended up with much larger 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:27.707 computers. 00:09:27.740 --> 00:09:33.207 On the academic side it was primarily the engineers initially and then 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:38.207 there were a few others in the math area and in the science area that 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:43.067 found something they could do with computers. And then everybody was 00:09:43.100 --> 00:09:47.657 finding a tool in the computer that would could be applied to their 00:09:47.690 --> 00:09:51.797 academic pursuits. One of the more interesting little projects that I 00:09:51.830 --> 00:09:58.927 worked on was for one of the librarians where we used the computer to 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:03.407 generate a concordance of I think it was some of Edgar Allan Poe's work 00:10:03.440 --> 00:10:06.396 and 00:10:06.429 --> 00:10:11.506 it wasn't a very good machine to use for that purpose. But on the other 00:10:11.539 --> 00:10:15.707 hand, when the only tool you have is a hammer, all problems look like 00:10:15.740 --> 00:10:20.087 nails and so we drove that one into the ground as best we could. And he 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:24.687 got a nice publication out of it. And I got a nice thank you appreciation. 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:30.927 Were you working with any industry allies there? Dr Patrick had gotten 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:36.037 some interesting things going on. Had some interesting things going on 00:10:36.070 --> 00:10:41.616 with orange corning, fiberglass. Um They make installation as you know, 00:10:41.649 --> 00:10:47.126 and one of the things that they were looking for is some way to use 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:52.437 technology to kind of promote their insulation. And so they started a 00:10:52.470 --> 00:10:58.726 program which Doctor Kirkpatrick had designed for them essentially of 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:04.876 comparing kind of minimum insulation for a house to an upgraded insulation 00:11:04.909 --> 00:11:10.766 for a house and guaranteeing that if you use the upgrade installation, 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:14.776 your annual heating and air conditioning bills would be no more than so 00:11:14.809 --> 00:11:22.307 much. And so while I was actually a student, I started doing some of these 00:11:22.340 --> 00:11:27.927 calculations for Doctor Kirkpatrick for Owens corning uh by hand, my 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:34.547 trusty slide rule and long pads of paper. Um but since I was taking his 00:11:34.580 --> 00:11:38.606 computer courses, I'm and needed a term project. He said, well why don't 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:46.639 you computerize that? So we did. And as a result um we really geared up 00:11:47.500 --> 00:11:52.866 what we could do for our own scorning fiberglass. And then the real capper 00:11:52.899 --> 00:11:57.976 to that little story is that Doctor Kirkpatrick encouraged me to write a 00:11:58.009 --> 00:12:01.957 little paper about it, which I did. And it got published in the ashtray 00:12:01.990 --> 00:12:08.427 journal. And that led to my getting a free trip to California to talk to 00:12:08.460 --> 00:12:13.376 the people of uh southern California Edison. And they adopted the program. 00:12:13.409 --> 00:12:17.146 And at that rate, it was it was a very interesting time to apply 00:12:17.179 --> 00:12:24.096 technology to a real world problem. And then we also because they happen 00:12:24.129 --> 00:12:30.427 to be there in town did some similar kind of um, simple minded computer 00:12:30.460 --> 00:12:38.460 work for jeep corporation, they have six models of Jeeps or whatever it is. 00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:43.667 But if you look at jeeps, there's a lot of parts that are similar from 00:12:43.700 --> 00:12:47.986 one model to the next. They all take sort of the same sort of fenders and 00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:52.287 same body parts and same hood and so forth. And so they had a certain 00:12:52.320 --> 00:13:00.320 number of presses to stamp out these body parts. They had a number of each 00:13:00.629 --> 00:13:05.067 model that they wanted to make and they wanted a little computer program 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:10.067 to tell them how to run their press line in order to get the right number 00:13:10.100 --> 00:13:16.437 of parts and whatever to make the commitment to their production. And so I 00:13:16.470 --> 00:13:22.447 wrote a little FORTRAN program to do that press loading for them And made 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:28.516 a few $100 every time we ran it to uh, to help with that. So these were, 00:13:28.549 --> 00:13:33.207 these were kind of early introductions to the utility of computing I guess. 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:39.207 Where does the name Lynn bellamy come in? Lynn Bellamy comes in at the 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:45.697 very end of the 13 years that I was in Toledo. Lynn had gone with a small 00:13:45.730 --> 00:13:52.106 group of engineers to Saudi Arabia to establish for the Saudis, the 00:13:52.139 --> 00:13:55.756 University of Petroleum and minds. The Saudis were getting a little tired 00:13:55.789 --> 00:13:59.866 of the fact that they had to hire all these american engineers to run the 00:13:59.899 --> 00:14:05.276 oil fields and they wanted to develop some homegrown talent and so Lynn. 00:14:05.309 --> 00:14:10.476 And as a matter of fact ken Pollack also, was that a issue? Eventually, um 00:14:10.509 --> 00:14:15.937 we're in that category of american engineers that set up the University of 00:14:15.970 --> 00:14:21.937 Petroleum and minds. And Lynn came back to the states after I think it was 00:14:21.970 --> 00:14:29.736 four years or maybe six working in Saudi Arabia um sort of a step down I 00:14:29.769 --> 00:14:33.106 suppose. But you know when you're out of the country, it's a little bit 00:14:33.139 --> 00:14:40.226 hard getting reintroduced to the mainstream and in this wonderful advanced 00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:45.596 technology oriented society that we have, but he came to the University of 00:14:45.629 --> 00:14:52.427 Toledo and the head of, of all computing, which by that time had begun to 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:58.256 merge the academic and the administrative side of things. Um, and that's 00:14:58.289 --> 00:15:02.807 where I met Lynn, I, I became one of three people that reported to him 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:10.167 there and I was responsible still for a sense of the operations, the big 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:16.837 iron, it was all big iron, then there were no microcomputers. Um, and I am 00:15:16.870 --> 00:15:23.736 the big iron. There was in fact IBM um As I say, it started out with the 00:15:23.769 --> 00:15:31.126 1620 on the academic side of 1401 on the admin side, we grew to 360 model 00:15:31.159 --> 00:15:39.159 50s and 3 71 45 0, a bunch of other things and eventually actually the 00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:45.687 university tweeted and Bowling Green State University um collaborated on a 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:49.407 joint venture 00:15:49.440 --> 00:15:55.837 sharing a much larger IBM system and we did most of our work from remote 00:15:55.870 --> 00:16:01.587 job entry terminals. Um, and that's pretty much the environment that was 00:16:01.620 --> 00:16:07.297 there. When I finally left. In the meantime, we did a lot of borrowing and 00:16:07.330 --> 00:16:12.537 begging for computer time on other people's big machines. Marathon oil uh 00:16:12.570 --> 00:16:18.307 , is pretty good sized 00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:24.567 petroleum industry business in the petroleum industry. And their homed in 00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:30.907 Findlay Ohio, which is like 60 miles from Toledo. And I lived in Carrie, 00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:37.136 which was just a little 15 miles further. And so on many weekends I would 00:16:37.169 --> 00:16:43.287 borrow computer time ought the marathon oil computers and I would take 00:16:43.320 --> 00:16:48.996 stuff from the university lito, stop and finley run it and then bring it 00:16:49.029 --> 00:16:56.016 back on monday when I came back from my hometown. Um, Straight down I 75 00:16:56.049 --> 00:17:02.937 down I 75 cut across on 23. Yeah, you didn't tell us when you were born. I 00:17:02.970 --> 00:17:06.107 was born May eight, 00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:13.506 Okay. and graduated from high school, I assume 58 with a class of 58 00:17:13.539 --> 00:17:19.506 University of Toledo graduated and I graduated in 63 because I, 00:17:19.539 --> 00:17:24.187 essentially, the engineering program was a four year program with one 00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:28.746 summer school and I was a poor enough kid that I needed to work during the 00:17:28.779 --> 00:17:33.917 summers. So I went an extra semester and it was during that extra semester 00:17:33.950 --> 00:17:40.236 that computers happened for me. Okay. So now Lynn bellamy's there. You're 00:17:40.269 --> 00:17:47.536 there. What happens to get a move to Arizona, Well, Arizona State 00:17:47.569 --> 00:17:54.766 University was making the public technology press rather dramatically 00:17:54.799 --> 00:18:00.927 around that period of time. Um The issue was a fairly large school even 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:06.907 then, much larger of course now, but 00:18:06.940 --> 00:18:12.407 they were growing rapidly, not just large, but they were growing rapidly. 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:20.097 And the fact is that computers were beginning to be important to a lot of 00:18:20.130 --> 00:18:25.506 people, particularly the academic side of the house. And so there were 00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:28.707 computers over here in the business college and there were some of the 00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:33.157 engineering college and there were some things going on in the math 00:18:33.190 --> 00:18:39.736 department and liberal arts and the administration, I'm guessing, but I 00:18:39.769 --> 00:18:44.296 believe this is probably true. Administration started to be concerned 00:18:44.329 --> 00:18:49.857 about the fact that, gosh, we're spending a lot on computing. Um but you 00:18:49.890 --> 00:18:55.707 don't see it because it's kind of diffused through the organization. 00:18:55.740 --> 00:19:00.377 So at any rate, a fellow by the name of Bruce alper who's I understand it 00:19:00.410 --> 00:19:04.816 was the head of the library uh convinced the administration in that 00:19:04.849 --> 00:19:09.887 environment that we ought to get a handle on this. And not only that we 00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:14.806 ought to do something about trying to optimize our use of computers. And 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:17.786 so he convinced 00:19:17.819 --> 00:19:25.637 someone, the President VPs, but he impressed the upper administration with 00:19:25.670 --> 00:19:33.670 the idea of consolidating computing into a more organized central function. 00:19:34.039 --> 00:19:37.597 And a lot of a lot of large institutions were doing that, not only 00:19:37.630 --> 00:19:43.127 academic institutions, but businesses as well. So, at any rate, he 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:51.160 contracted with the Novak for a very, very, very early um Univac 11,000 00:19:52.369 --> 00:19:58.437 Series Machine. It was, it was a state of the art machine. So state of the 00:19:58.470 --> 00:20:06.217 art that it had a lot of problems. So a issue had this difficulty with the 00:20:06.250 --> 00:20:11.607 technology that wasn't very mature at the same time. They were trying to 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:18.607 reorganized people into a centralized concept of computing and the unrest. 00:20:18.640 --> 00:20:23.627 The unrest today issue was very, very significant. As I say, it made the 00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:30.276 national trade press and I was aware of it. Lynn was aware of it. He got 00:20:30.309 --> 00:20:37.496 hired in Late 75. I want to say it was probably October to um do something 00:20:37.529 --> 00:20:42.417 about the unrest and it wasn't clear that that had anything to do with 00:20:42.450 --> 00:20:46.296 hardware or software, it probably had more to do with people than anything 00:20:46.329 --> 00:20:53.336 else. But he was hired to fix that problem. He invited me to come out and 00:20:53.369 --> 00:20:58.847 interview and the interview process was quite interesting. Others have 00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:06.880 commented on that the interview process was very intense in terms of, I 00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:11.576 don't know, I must have interviewed 20 people in two days, Maybe it wasn't 00:21:11.609 --> 00:21:15.276 20, but it was a very large number. And the reason had to do with this 00:21:15.309 --> 00:21:19.677 unrest, not with the fact that they were trying to have such a really 00:21:19.710 --> 00:21:25.967 great hiring process. Hopefully it it helped that too. But people were 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:31.766 really concerned about what was going on. Well at any rate. I passed 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:37.387 muster evidently with the people that I interviewed, Lynn hired me and in 00:21:37.420 --> 00:21:42.617 January of 76 I moved to Arizona State University with similar 00:21:42.650 --> 00:21:45.917 responsibilities to what I had at the university, Twitter under him that 00:21:45.950 --> 00:21:52.306 is centralized computing operations and whatever else needed to be done. 00:21:52.339 --> 00:21:59.107 Um I guess I've always felt that my job description 00:21:59.140 --> 00:22:02.627 from the first day I was hired at the University of Toledo. The most 00:22:02.660 --> 00:22:07.566 important phrase was the one down at the bottom of paragraph and other 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:12.776 duties as assigned because that's where you get the good stuff at any rate. 00:22:12.809 --> 00:22:20.809 So we spent the next few years, it was probably only a year or so getting 00:22:20.900 --> 00:22:28.900 the troops together. Ah hiring people like Connie McNeill two help turn 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:36.607 this into a real organization but turning around the attitude on campus so 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:40.947 that when you went to a meeting, People were no longer showing up with 00:22:40.980 --> 00:22:46.266 those three and 4 three ring binders and fiddling through them to see if 00:22:46.299 --> 00:22:50.836 what you're saying today matched what was said six months ago. Um But 00:22:50.869 --> 00:22:55.127 we're comfortable with the idea that it was a participatory environment of 00:22:55.160 --> 00:23:02.107 peoples um attitudes and opinions were being taken into account, hopefully 00:23:02.140 --> 00:23:08.107 respected but at least being taken into account and 00:23:08.140 --> 00:23:12.897 then we were able to move forward with doing something new and exciting 00:23:12.930 --> 00:23:16.947 with the computing per se. That first job you had, what was the job 00:23:16.980 --> 00:23:23.056 description of that. Oh gee other than as required, I believe that the 00:23:23.089 --> 00:23:27.006 initial job that I had was, 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:31.407 and I don't remember his director Manager, but something in charge of 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:36.046 central operations. So I was responsible for the big hardware. I was 00:23:36.079 --> 00:23:39.607 responsible for the operators. I was responsible for whatever was 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:44.306 connected to the computer, which at that time was not much, it was a very 00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:52.107 LTD central operation. Um We had a few administrative terminals, but 00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:59.316 terminals were still to come. Okay, you might uh describe the difference 00:23:59.349 --> 00:24:05.367 between the two following uh types of computers. The academic computing 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:11.397 and the administrative and maybe trace some of that history. Academic 00:24:11.430 --> 00:24:19.430 computing, as I say, had been very much in departments and it was 00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:25.357 for the departments that had a lot of money and good foresight, very nice 00:24:25.390 --> 00:24:31.086 for departments that maybe didn't have quite as much funding or quite the 00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:35.947 anticipation foresight of what was coming down the road, it was more of a 00:24:35.980 --> 00:24:42.336 struggle. And so this centralization of academic computing was fairly easy 00:24:42.369 --> 00:24:50.369 to make people more satisfied with a bigger, more available resource. At 00:24:51.049 --> 00:24:56.887 the same time, the administration was just beginning to understand that 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:01.607 computers could be used to do mundane things like room scheduling, 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:07.707 students scheduling, grade reporting, um personnel management, things of 00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:15.740 that sort. And so there were little individual stand alone pieces of 00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:22.097 administrative computing that we're trying to be assembled and moved into 00:25:22.130 --> 00:25:30.130 a more central operation as well During this period of time. Post 76. Um 00:25:32.140 --> 00:25:40.140 The dramatic 1st step for Lynn and his contingent was to bring in a fairly 00:25:40.990 --> 00:25:47.556 decent sized IBM computer and begin moving all of those disparate little 00:25:47.589 --> 00:25:53.677 pieces onto that single machine as well. Um We ended up putting that 00:25:53.710 --> 00:25:58.137 machine in the engineering B wing, which is where some of the old Ge and 00:25:58.170 --> 00:26:04.236 Honeywell machines had been. Um And the academic Univac was still in 00:26:04.269 --> 00:26:11.377 engineering a wing, they were still being run As two separate hardware 00:26:11.410 --> 00:26:17.957 facilities, but that was easy to manage. It was the problem of getting 00:26:17.990 --> 00:26:23.506 everything consolidated physically 00:26:23.539 --> 00:26:30.677 from a application standpoint. Um That that was still a major outstanding 00:26:30.710 --> 00:26:38.347 issue. Um But the academic and the administrative grew up with the 00:26:38.380 --> 00:26:42.826 academic always having more demand than the administrative in terms of 00:26:42.859 --> 00:26:48.046 computing power. And so we got into an era for several years where we 00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:53.107 would get the next new machine for the academic side of the house and the 00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:58.147 older machine would move over to the admin side of the house. And 00:26:58.180 --> 00:27:02.496 eventually of course all of that changed dramatically when desktop 00:27:02.529 --> 00:27:07.387 computing, it took so much of what is being done away from the central 00:27:07.420 --> 00:27:12.576 facilities and distributed out to individual desktops. Um And and 00:27:12.609 --> 00:27:19.336 departments you say Connie McNeill came on board about the time a little 00:27:19.369 --> 00:27:27.369 later than you did. What was her responsibility? Well, again, remember 00:27:28.210 --> 00:27:36.210 This is 1976 and I think Connie came to a issue in the Middle part of 76, 00:27:36.210 --> 00:27:41.947 or maybe just a little bit later. Um I think she actually recalls as being 00:27:41.980 --> 00:27:48.766 august of 76, we're still in the throes of what are those people doing 00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:52.137 over there with that computing stuff, They don't tell us enough, we don't 00:27:52.170 --> 00:27:56.296 know what's going on, You have to give us a better idea of what's 00:27:56.329 --> 00:28:01.056 happening. Well, Connie came into that same environment, working for Lynn 00:28:01.089 --> 00:28:09.089 bellamy and her responsibilities. Mhm went from probably fairly narrow, 00:28:10.049 --> 00:28:15.947 make the students system work to run the administrative computing from a 00:28:15.980 --> 00:28:23.506 programmatic and an application standpoint. And she did a wonderful job of 00:28:23.539 --> 00:28:31.167 shaping up a group that seem to not be terribly professional and 00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:36.697 understanding into one that knew that the customer needed to be taken care 00:28:36.730 --> 00:28:43.836 of satisfied and provided for. And so Connie really moved the 00:28:43.869 --> 00:28:50.006 administrative part of the computing house forward tremendously. Well, 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:55.776 that's right. Well, as time went on, your job seemed to change into uh 00:28:55.809 --> 00:29:02.897 more narrow area than just running the main computer. Uh how about 00:29:02.930 --> 00:29:07.276 describing how that transition took place and what was happening that 00:29:07.309 --> 00:29:11.387 caused it. Well, 00:29:11.420 --> 00:29:16.877 during all of this time, prior to Lynn and this group of people getting 00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:23.657 here and moving forward until today, issue continues to grow. Um I want to 00:29:23.690 --> 00:29:28.147 say that when I came there were maybe 40,000 students and of course, now 00:29:28.180 --> 00:29:33.717 60,000, that's fairly significant and the growth of computing, not only 00:29:33.750 --> 00:29:39.516 goes up with the body counts, but with the fact that during that same 00:29:39.549 --> 00:29:43.326 period of time, more and more disciplines are finding things that they can 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:49.647 use the computer for. Uh statistics seem to be everywhere. And so just the 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:54.467 growth and to use the computer for developing statistical analyses would 00:29:54.500 --> 00:30:01.756 be enough to make uh much more hardware intensive requirements. Come to 00:30:01.789 --> 00:30:09.789 the forum at the same time, um you you have people wanting to do things 00:30:11.539 --> 00:30:17.657 more independently. This what goes around comes around is very, very true 00:30:17.690 --> 00:30:22.336 in computing. We started out with computers distributed in a lot of 00:30:22.369 --> 00:30:27.137 different departments, We brought them together. Now during this period of 00:30:27.170 --> 00:30:34.457 growth, microcomputers began to be significant on campus in the industry. 00:30:34.490 --> 00:30:38.407 About what year was that happened? 00:30:38.440 --> 00:30:46.440 The first microcomputers probably hit campus In 84, maybe a little bit 00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:54.640 earlier, but the really big burst of microcomputers happened in 86 00:30:54.730 --> 00:30:57.107 due to some 00:30:57.140 --> 00:31:05.140 pricing and encouragement of academia by IBM. The the typical desktop 00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:09.697 microcomputer which was in the $3504,000 00:31:09.730 --> 00:31:16.816 range, was being offered to academia In the $2500 to $3,000 range. IBM has 00:31:16.849 --> 00:31:21.417 always been really good about marketing to universities because they have 00:31:21.450 --> 00:31:27.617 understood that universities are technology leaders. Um 60% discounts are 00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:35.650 not unusual at any rate as a result of that, in the early part of of 00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:43.506 86, we did in fact put in an order for, I think it was 500 ibms and we got 00:31:43.539 --> 00:31:51.539 him by the semi truck trailer load and we took them into what was then a 00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:58.286 fairly new building as I recall the basement of the business college 00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:04.076 building. And the thing that I'm best known for with respect to that is 00:32:04.109 --> 00:32:08.576 the tech shop which I was running had the responsibility for assembling 00:32:08.609 --> 00:32:12.766 them, distributing them, getting them up and running. And my biggest 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:19.036 headache was the trash management because every computer has what appears 00:32:19.069 --> 00:32:24.836 to be three times as much trash as it has good hardware. So we had a real 00:32:24.869 --> 00:32:28.347 problem getting the dumpsters hauled away fast enough so that we could 00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:35.046 keep doing the unpacking. But the whole change in computing was from a 00:32:35.079 --> 00:32:41.957 total and absolute emphasis on big mainframes to now for many people a 00:32:41.990 --> 00:32:48.056 complete turn about to doing desktop computing and Connie did a really 00:32:48.089 --> 00:32:53.217 good job during this period of time of working with the advisory 00:32:53.250 --> 00:32:57.006 committees. Two 00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:02.217 mediate that discussion. As I say, some people, some of the biggest 00:33:02.250 --> 00:33:05.677 researchers, those little computers, they don't do anything for us. We 00:33:05.710 --> 00:33:13.296 have to have the Big Iron. And most people in terms of Headcount said well 00:33:13.329 --> 00:33:16.266 the big Iron doesn't help me that much. I really want something that I can 00:33:16.299 --> 00:33:20.857 control and manage. So the bottom line is we went through a period of time 00:33:20.890 --> 00:33:26.266 where the big discussion was you got x million dollars, how much of it you 00:33:26.299 --> 00:33:30.187 spend on Big Iron, how much of it you spend on desktops and oh by the way 00:33:30.220 --> 00:33:36.137 , there are a few hardcore departmental oriented folks that there's 00:33:36.170 --> 00:33:41.046 something called many computers that's kind of in between and we need some 00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:45.266 of those two. So the idea of distributing the budget to these various 00:33:45.299 --> 00:33:52.617 areas became a major discussion and eventually we, we did do a good job, I 00:33:52.650 --> 00:33:59.107 think of distributing the funding, we continue to improve the big iron. We 00:33:59.140 --> 00:34:04.667 had huge, wonderful programs that made many of the administrators happy 00:34:04.700 --> 00:34:12.700 and definitely help the, the individual faculty by putting desktops on on 00:34:12.769 --> 00:34:16.697 eventually every desk in the, in the university, you mentioned, Connie 00:34:16.730 --> 00:34:22.206 McNeill was instrumental in that, but it seemed like she was working 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:28.206 administrative computing. But weren't these computers going out into the 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:35.287 faculty. But remember the, the timeframe, we're now up in the mid eighties 00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:40.677 , like I say 86 when that, when those trucks backed up to our loading 00:34:40.710 --> 00:34:48.710 docks. And at that point Connie was in the midst of being responsible for 00:34:49.340 --> 00:34:52.506 the transition between 00:34:52.539 --> 00:35:00.539 bosses and I, I don't remember enough of the exact, yeah, Lynn had had 00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:06.856 gone back to the faculty ken, was 00:35:06.889 --> 00:35:14.256 in the throes of following page to write state. And so the Connie was 00:35:14.289 --> 00:35:21.197 there too, uh, be a central focus and, and make things move forward, given 00:35:21.230 --> 00:35:25.896 all the turmoil of personnel turnover. It's amazing how smoothly things 00:35:25.929 --> 00:35:30.637 actually did progress. Okay, You mentioned that you had the text shop and 00:35:30.670 --> 00:35:35.517 you were setting up all these computers, mentioned how that came about 00:35:35.550 --> 00:35:42.307 because tech shop is not mainframe that you were running when you got here. 00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:48.376 Tech shop telecommunications is a topic. That that's another one of those 00:35:48.409 --> 00:35:56.409 things morph. Um as we began to develop the big IBM iron, we've now phased 00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:02.296 out the univac, we now have IBM on both the academic administrative side 00:36:02.329 --> 00:36:08.467 of the house. The, the idea of people having access to that with other 00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:14.436 than decks of cards was very important and as a matter of fact, dumb 00:36:14.469 --> 00:36:22.057 terminals were the primary means of accessing the big iron um for IBM they 00:36:22.090 --> 00:36:27.097 like to think of it as IBM 32 seventies. 00:36:27.130 --> 00:36:32.936 Other folks said, well you can use cheaper asking terminals if you do some 00:36:32.969 --> 00:36:37.447 other twisting your mouth and crossing your fingers and so forth. And so 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:44.307 the bottom line is, we began to build networks of, of dumb terminals 00:36:44.340 --> 00:36:48.597 across the campus. Um, 00:36:48.630 --> 00:36:51.697 the tech shop 00:36:51.730 --> 00:36:58.166 was involved with doing that part of things as well, that is the actual 00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:02.847 running of cables across campus. Getting those dumb terminals connected, 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:10.880 making that happen. And it was a small leap then from tech shop to, we 00:37:13.389 --> 00:37:20.747 really have to uh take more seriously this whole idea of networking um 00:37:20.780 --> 00:37:27.456 coincidentally similar time in the history of computing and things of that 00:37:27.489 --> 00:37:34.267 sort. The National Science Foundation put out some solicitations for large 00:37:34.300 --> 00:37:39.517 supercomputers, I think there were like 10 or 12 of them that were funded 00:37:39.550 --> 00:37:47.166 and one of those was in Colorado. Um others were at other major university 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:54.396 locations around the country. They put out a second solicitation um two 00:37:54.429 --> 00:37:58.936 allow networks to be built around each of those supercomputer centers so 00:37:58.969 --> 00:38:03.186 that the supercomputer could be accessed and used by a larger cadre of 00:38:03.219 --> 00:38:09.517 academic folks. And so the fact is that it was in this same time frame. As 00:38:09.550 --> 00:38:15.327 a matter of fact, it ended up being very coincidental with our first major 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:23.360 IBM desktops that a s you got involved with a group called West Net based 00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:31.026 around the supercomputer at the University of Colorado. And we got our 00:38:31.059 --> 00:38:39.059 first I. Cisco router router is just advice that ties terminals on one 00:38:39.650 --> 00:38:44.816 side to a network and goes out to wonderful places all over the country on 00:38:44.849 --> 00:38:52.849 the other side. And this, this was a very dramatic shift and that's when 00:38:53.789 --> 00:39:00.586 the text shop sort of turned into an organization that 00:39:00.619 --> 00:39:07.787 justifies the term telecommunications at the same time. The director 00:39:07.820 --> 00:39:13.896 purchasing George Morel said, you know, one of the things that 00:39:13.929 --> 00:39:21.447 communications is involved with his voice. And I've got us west over here 00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:25.427 that we sort of right purchase orders to and they do the wiring of the 00:39:25.460 --> 00:39:32.267 campus and whatever for voice. And so George. And Lynn Had early on 00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:36.767 decided that well, maybe it was a good idea to move that across. So I 00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:42.376 think it was probably 1980 for just prior to all of this other stuff 00:39:42.409 --> 00:39:49.927 happening that the idea of the telephone service is reporting to somebody 00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.827 in computing. And it turns out that that eventually became a part of the 00:39:53.860 --> 00:40:01.347 telecom group that I put together. Um It was a very, very rapidly moving 00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:06.416 when you look back at it in retrospect, but it seemed like uh it was just 00:40:06.449 --> 00:40:11.456 a natural progression to begin to move these things together. And then of 00:40:11.489 --> 00:40:16.756 course, over a period of time that became a significant part of the 00:40:16.789 --> 00:40:19.577 telecom activity, 00:40:19.610 --> 00:40:27.610 we put together a bid in Probably 84 85 to rewire the campus 00:40:29.179 --> 00:40:36.276 to take into account all of this change that had been going on two, 00:40:36.309 --> 00:40:41.157 put more of a label on the 00:40:41.190 --> 00:40:46.706 computer terminals, the pcs that were acting as terminals and then 00:40:46.739 --> 00:40:52.316 eventually acting as stand alone computers. That could also be a part of 00:40:52.349 --> 00:40:59.026 the larger computing network on campus. And also this whole connection to 00:40:59.059 --> 00:41:03.316 the National Science Foundation network which was tying all the 00:41:03.349 --> 00:41:09.316 universities in the country together. And so I don't remember that there's 00:41:09.349 --> 00:41:14.686 an exact date where we said this is it or the org chart changed, but in 00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:22.719 this time frame, 84 85 86 we joined West Net. We got our first router. We 00:41:23.300 --> 00:41:30.146 began to do the groundwork to rewire the campus and by February of 86 we 00:41:30.179 --> 00:41:35.867 had rewired the campus uh I think the AT&T contract was somewhere around 00:41:35.900 --> 00:41:43.900 $8 million. and we essentially joined many of our peers in the new era of 00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:51.276 being a networked university as opposed to a stand alone node somewhere 00:41:51.309 --> 00:41:58.686 who was doing the talking with this node, what what activities academic 00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:02.586 units were using that supercomputer 00:42:02.619 --> 00:42:08.847 network. Initially it was very, very limited. The name that stands out in 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:16.066 my mind as our first serious user. 00:42:16.099 --> 00:42:21.447 He helped promote it and he was really a thorn in our side because if he 00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:25.186 was unhappy, our entire user community wasn't happy with some other star 00:42:25.219 --> 00:42:33.037 field Sumner um literally wanted to work, collaborate with some peers, I 00:42:33.070 --> 00:42:40.477 want to say it was in Illinois, but at any rate, um he was the driving 00:42:40.510 --> 00:42:46.097 force that motivated me to make sure that the internet was a and the 00:42:46.130 --> 00:42:54.130 internet at that time was the NSF net. The NSF net was a few nodes around 00:42:54.840 --> 00:43:02.166 the country. Places where interchange of data took place and both A S. U. 00:43:02.199 --> 00:43:07.767 And the U. Of a shared a 56 kilobit link to the University of Utah, which 00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:12.617 is our closest NSF node. Uh and we shared that for a couple of years. Then 00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:19.836 we went to a T. One which is 1.544 megabits. And then of course now we're 00:43:19.869 --> 00:43:26.367 at gig ranges and nobody knows how much data is flowing. 00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:30.666 Uh there's a term that you might explain here and that's bandwidth 00:43:30.699 --> 00:43:37.566 bandwidth. Well, I just sort of alluded to it, bandwidth 00:43:37.599 --> 00:43:45.066 is a little bit like water pressure except it's data. 00:43:45.099 --> 00:43:49.807 If you have low bandwidth, it means you can get a small amount of data 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:57.666 through a communications link over any given period of time. 56 kilobits 00:43:57.699 --> 00:44:05.699 of data is pretty limited. 100. Uh, megabits is significant more and it's 00:44:08.409 --> 00:44:12.847 literally just numerically that difference. But the whole idea of 00:44:12.880 --> 00:44:18.477 bandwidth is how much water pressure do you need to put the fire out the 00:44:18.510 --> 00:44:23.856 fire being what people want to do in terms of using the data at a remote 00:44:23.889 --> 00:44:31.889 location and the bandwidth that a issue users today is several gigabits 00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:38.606 per second and I'm remote enough from it. Now, I don't know the exact 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:43.227 number, but it's a big number compared to that original 56 kilobits. So 00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:47.347 you were in charge of this tech shop and telecommunication. The tech shop 00:44:47.380 --> 00:44:51.736 was a piece of the telecommunications department. It was the original 00:44:51.769 --> 00:44:57.126 piece and then it was surrounded by other people in the network. And when 00:44:57.159 --> 00:45:01.597 we got into networking now it wasn't dumb terminals. It was little 00:45:01.630 --> 00:45:07.217 computers known as routers, bigger computers known as other kinds of 00:45:07.250 --> 00:45:13.367 communications boxes. But it's all based upon being able to move data from 00:45:13.400 --> 00:45:17.727 one place to another without losing it. And with integrity from the 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:22.427 standpoint of if you send it, you know, it'll get there. We're going to 00:45:22.460 --> 00:45:27.456 talk more about the modification to old main, but you might just mention 00:45:27.489 --> 00:45:33.126 how old main played into this. Rewiring of the campus. Old main was 00:45:33.159 --> 00:45:40.756 integral to that from the standpoint of all of the wiring from US West 00:45:40.789 --> 00:45:45.816 came off of university into Old Main and then from Old Main was 00:45:45.849 --> 00:45:53.849 distributed to the individual desktops, telephones on the campus. The US 00:45:54.409 --> 00:46:01.436 West actually had some hardware in Old Main it was called a stepper switch. 00:46:01.469 --> 00:46:09.469 It simply was a piece of the central office that was over on Mill avenue 00:46:10.489 --> 00:46:16.747 that they put on our premises for efficiency purposes. But the idea is 00:46:16.780 --> 00:46:20.137 that calls come in, it's a little bit like the router on the data side 00:46:20.170 --> 00:46:24.497 calls come in. It causes a stepper to do certain things and the connection 00:46:24.530 --> 00:46:28.447 is made then directly to your office telephone or going the other 00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:36.480 direction out um having all of the wiring from US West Homed in Old Main 00:46:38.969 --> 00:46:45.376 means it's the only logical place to rewire the campus and use that as the 00:46:45.409 --> 00:46:51.456 hub for the rewiring. So in fact that's what happened. Um We took out the 00:46:51.489 --> 00:46:58.046 step or switch and put in the AT&T. System 85. We 00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:02.847 improve the frames where all of the wires come together in a separate room 00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:08.936 across the hall from that switch and we upgraded the wiring from not just 00:47:08.969 --> 00:47:13.586 the twisted pair for the telephone but we put in the co ax to deal with 00:47:13.619 --> 00:47:20.336 other networking and we put in some fiber initially dark that is not being 00:47:20.369 --> 00:47:26.436 used in order to plan for some future activity. I imagine you used the 00:47:26.469 --> 00:47:31.126 utility tunnels which I imagine are getting quite full of stuff. The 00:47:31.159 --> 00:47:39.159 utility tunnels were integral to this and there are some places where 00:47:39.480 --> 00:47:44.546 I couldn't crawl through them anymore. I'm too big. Um Art Cantrell which 00:47:44.579 --> 00:47:49.316 is one of my staff was a little bigger than I and so you'd have to go back 00:47:49.349 --> 00:47:53.447 up on top and come in from the other side. But yes the utility tunnels uh 00:47:53.480 --> 00:47:58.506 A. S. U. Was unbelievably fortunate that whoever set up the initial 00:47:58.539 --> 00:48:05.077 physical plan was really of forward thinking person. Most of the utility 00:48:05.110 --> 00:48:11.637 tunnels on campus are eight ft by eight ft and that's 00:48:11.670 --> 00:48:15.456 not huge but on the other hand it's nice size, you can put a lot of stuff 00:48:15.489 --> 00:48:19.236 down there and the stuff that's down there are things like chilled water, 00:48:19.269 --> 00:48:24.447 steam lines and the communications electrical 00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:29.597 and so from that standpoint it made it the only place that we could in 00:48:29.630 --> 00:48:32.767 fact deal with 00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:38.517 rewiring the campus. We I would like to have pulled out all of the old US 00:48:38.550 --> 00:48:45.907 West wiring simply because it takes up space and spaces critical issue. Um 00:48:45.940 --> 00:48:49.936 but untangling 00:48:49.969 --> 00:48:55.137 all of that old wiring when you're trying to put new wiring in was just 00:48:55.170 --> 00:49:00.236 Not 10able. We've taken out pieces of it here and there at some choke 00:49:00.269 --> 00:49:06.727 points. Um but there's some real large amount of copper laying dead down 00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:12.646 there in those tunnels right now. You mentioned Russ nelson having 00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:20.296 initiated some networking with the refs might describe Russ was our first 00:49:20.329 --> 00:49:24.336 president that 00:49:24.369 --> 00:49:30.037 appreciated technology. Um, 00:49:30.070 --> 00:49:36.137 he wasn't technologist, but he understood the fact that technology, it was 00:49:36.170 --> 00:49:44.170 a way to multiply our abilities in the realm of communication. And so 00:49:47.369 --> 00:49:53.186 computing services was fiddling around internally with a system called 00:49:53.219 --> 00:49:59.727 props, electronic mail, calendar ring. Some things of that sort and I 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:05.126 believe it was probably ken Pollack talking to Russ um, 00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:11.736 about this and and rest as well. Would that help me communicate with my 00:50:11.769 --> 00:50:17.896 direct reports with the VPs? And of course ken said yes and he worked with 00:50:17.929 --> 00:50:22.626 Russ enough to get rushed to say, well I think you should make that happen. 00:50:22.659 --> 00:50:30.659 And so kind of as a back door computing services can Ordered enough dumb 00:50:32.239 --> 00:50:40.239 30-70 terminals to outfit all of the VPs and some other reports um, with 00:50:40.510 --> 00:50:47.947 these terminals and they were installed, tech shop telecom, they were 00:50:47.980 --> 00:50:51.526 installed 00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:57.956 in some cases over the objections of some of the VPs. Um, some of the VPs 00:50:57.989 --> 00:51:04.236 I suspect never used them, their direct reports. Their principal clerical 00:51:04.269 --> 00:51:08.727 staff would type whatever needed to be typed in, it would print out, 00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:14.977 Brother needed to be read, but over time that became the motivating force 00:51:15.010 --> 00:51:20.206 for the administration tumbling down. Uh, this idea of, of electronic 00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:27.106 communications to the entire campus and once you sort of begin that 00:51:27.139 --> 00:51:32.327 process, it's a little bit like the snowball rolling downhill, picks up 00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:38.546 more snow and momentum and of course today everybody is using them. Upper 00:51:38.579 --> 00:51:44.157 administration support. You mentioned Russ, any others in the president's 00:51:44.190 --> 00:51:49.586 office or the provost's office that you'd give credit to and moving things 00:51:49.619 --> 00:51:56.767 along technology wise. Well, I I didn't have that much direct contact with 00:51:56.800 --> 00:52:02.626 most of the upper management. Um I was close enough to it that I, I could 00:52:02.659 --> 00:52:07.256 see it and smell it and touch it and things of that sort. But I I didn't, 00:52:07.289 --> 00:52:15.289 I didn't get in on the inside discussions but Russ probably, as I said 00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:20.827 earlier was the first, but I think everyone sends him has been aware that 00:52:20.860 --> 00:52:26.046 this is really important stuff. Our institution can't live without this 00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:34.079 stuff. Um they became aware that if the student system is down, we're in 00:52:34.510 --> 00:52:39.847 rough shape, if the payroll system is down, we're in rough shape. And so I 00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:47.880 , I think that we've had really pretty, pretty significant support from um 00:52:48.449 --> 00:52:53.447 the President's office and from whichever VP happened to be responsible 00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:58.537 for the technology ever since. Um, it's been a pretty pretty sound 00:52:58.570 --> 00:53:03.887 environment from that standpoint, some of the leaders in computer services 00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:06.316 , 00:53:06.349 --> 00:53:12.916 you might comment on anyone. I'm Lynn bellamy 00:53:12.949 --> 00:53:20.949 ken Pollack, Connie MacNeil lee alley. Well Lewis, Adrian, Lynn, Lynn, um 00:53:22.949 --> 00:53:25.967 I've known the longest obviously because I knew him in Toledo as well as 00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:30.217 here at issue and 00:53:30.250 --> 00:53:38.250 Lynn is um probably the most entrepreneurial of that set of people that I 00:53:38.849 --> 00:53:45.816 knew personally and I didn't know Adrian personally, although I I met him 00:53:45.849 --> 00:53:53.849 um but Lynn was always ready to suggest some crazy thing 00:53:54.250 --> 00:53:56.416 and 00:53:56.449 --> 00:54:00.367 the Madison avenue running up the flag pole and see if anybody salutes was 00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:05.896 kind of his way of operating. And one of my jobs with Lynn, my 00:54:05.929 --> 00:54:10.617 relationship with Lynn was to tell him when nobody's saluting, let's not 00:54:10.650 --> 00:54:18.436 go too far down that road. Um ken was a solid manager, he had good 00:54:18.469 --> 00:54:24.006 instincts and he 00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:27.006 was more 00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:32.807 a regular guy type manager. As far as I was concerned, the space 00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:38.427 requirements needed by the different operations and computer services. How 00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:42.706 did that? Well snowball 00:54:42.739 --> 00:54:46.606 once again 00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:53.307 this goes back literally to pre Lynn even, but the fact is you had 00:54:53.340 --> 00:54:58.497 computing folks spread out in many, many different locations and when you 00:54:58.530 --> 00:55:04.617 tried to bring that together around centralized hardware, uh they still 00:55:04.650 --> 00:55:12.650 were spread out, but as Connie came along and admin grew and as the 00:55:12.659 --> 00:55:19.276 academic grew we had more and more staff required and they were literally 00:55:19.309 --> 00:55:24.186 all over the place, We had people in West hall, we had people in A. S. B. 00:55:24.219 --> 00:55:30.977 We had people in the more building, we had people in the um motel out 00:55:31.010 --> 00:55:37.296 along university, we had people in engineering um name another building, 00:55:37.329 --> 00:55:43.106 we probably had some people there. And so the thing is growth is wonderful 00:55:43.139 --> 00:55:51.139 but it has its real issues with respect to management and organization and 00:55:51.260 --> 00:55:57.356 so during this entire period of time there was a growing interest in how 00:55:57.389 --> 00:56:02.876 can we get these people in one place and over time we move people into 00:56:02.909 --> 00:56:09.197 fewer locations, but we still didn't have them all in one place. And so 00:56:09.230 --> 00:56:16.467 literally somewhere in this time frame, I mean we had, we had my telecom 00:56:16.500 --> 00:56:21.436 group in mobile homes along Palm Walk for, I don't know, five years or 00:56:21.469 --> 00:56:26.967 whatever it was. So somewhere in this time period there was a real 00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:32.997 developing concept of how do we get all these people together? How do we 00:56:33.030 --> 00:56:38.477 create a collegial atmosphere, not just a collegial attitude among these 00:56:38.510 --> 00:56:44.947 folks and that's where the concept of the computing commons came from. Can 00:56:44.980 --> 00:56:49.816 we do something to get all the staff together in one place to get all of 00:56:49.849 --> 00:56:55.586 the key elements of what we provide is services available so we can 00:56:55.619 --> 00:57:01.477 showcase them in one place and eventually that led to the commons and now 00:57:01.510 --> 00:57:08.597 back to lee alley. How did he play into? Well, lee ali was an anomaly in 00:57:08.630 --> 00:57:16.630 the hole sequence of things. With respect to computing. Um, 00:57:16.820 --> 00:57:23.706 a replacement for ken Pollack I guess was, was the motivation, the 00:57:23.739 --> 00:57:30.217 national search. Um, there were, I don't know of a significant number of 00:57:30.250 --> 00:57:38.250 applicants. Um lee was in the final three, I wasn't on that committee, I 00:57:38.690 --> 00:57:43.896 wish I would have been um 00:57:43.929 --> 00:57:51.929 lee is probably one of the two or 3 most entrepreneurial talkers that I 00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:54.396 know, 00:57:54.429 --> 00:57:57.756 um 00:57:57.789 --> 00:58:04.666 not a lot of substance but he could he could say the right things but he 00:58:04.699 --> 00:58:12.287 just really had no people skills or leadership skills and 00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:17.436 you can't be in a position as important as the head of computing with that 00:58:17.469 --> 00:58:25.469 skill set. So lee, thank you. Being a good talker. Did one useful piece of 00:58:26.119 --> 00:58:31.376 work for computing services I. T. Whatever you wanna call it. Uh During 00:58:31.409 --> 00:58:33.586 his tenure 00:58:33.619 --> 00:58:41.247 he put together the presentation and almost entirely on his own. He put it 00:58:41.280 --> 00:58:49.280 together that sold the regions on the commons. He did a really good job of 00:58:49.409 --> 00:58:53.026 selling it And they said, well is that everything you need? And he says 00:58:53.059 --> 00:58:58.097 well no, but it's you know, the reasonable thing, they said come back next 00:58:58.130 --> 00:59:04.497 month and tell us what you really need. And so he came back and he really 00:59:04.530 --> 00:59:10.936 sold them on the commons. Uh they poured the money out and that's the only 00:59:10.969 --> 00:59:16.677 thing that I would give him pat on the back and a handshake. Other than 00:59:16.710 --> 00:59:21.046 that it was it was miserable working for the alley period. Let me finish 00:59:21.079 --> 00:59:28.727 up just one point about that thing with the building and league, the staff 00:59:28.760 --> 00:59:35.137 had done all the real work to to rationalize justify, make the case for 00:59:35.170 --> 00:59:41.977 the building. But what I was saying previously is that lee put the gloss 00:59:42.010 --> 00:59:47.597 on, he put the lipstick on, he he did the hairdo, he made it really 00:59:47.630 --> 00:59:52.336 attractive to the regions, the staff had done the work. But lee really 00:59:52.369 --> 00:59:55.747 cleaned it up and made it happen. Well, Connie probably had the biggest 00:59:55.780 --> 01:00:00.907 space problems with scattered of people and Connie's staff was really 01:00:00.940 --> 01:00:05.327 scattered to the wind it seemed. Yeah, so she was probably pushing more 01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:09.477 for that. Absolutely, absolutely. 01:00:09.510 --> 01:00:15.106 Then we come to Connie, you might say some words about Connie. Connie is 01:00:15.139 --> 01:00:23.139 just one of the really refreshing people that, along with Lynn and myself 01:00:24.730 --> 01:00:30.367 and Barbara and a few others made up the core team that I think back on as 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:38.400 making computing happen today. Issue. Um Smart, knowledgeable. Um but 01:00:40.210 --> 01:00:46.977 congenial, I mean it's the sort of thing that you can argue and have 01:00:47.010 --> 01:00:51.626 difference of opinion and then you say, well okay we've agreed. Now let's 01:00:51.659 --> 01:00:56.376 let's move forward. It's kind of like the things that don't happen in 01:00:56.409 --> 01:01:00.407 Congress these days and people reflect back on some of the old days when 01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:05.046 people would argue and then go out and have a beer after dinner. Bill 01:01:05.079 --> 01:01:13.079 Lewis bill is a different animal altogether. Um 01:01:14.809 --> 01:01:18.526 Bill's heart is in engineering and that's understandable. That's where he 01:01:18.559 --> 01:01:26.559 spent most of his career. Um He did a good job for continuing two have the 01:01:28.250 --> 01:01:32.787 technology aspects of the University of the I. R. M. The I. T. Whatever we 01:01:32.820 --> 01:01:40.820 want to call it, move forward. But he was in a time warp 01:01:40.900 --> 01:01:47.416 in terms of doing dramatic things where budgets were getting tight. I mean 01:01:47.449 --> 01:01:54.316 in the early days we had money as I think some others have commented the 01:01:54.349 --> 01:01:58.597 provost at the end of the year would say, well we saved a little bit of 01:01:58.630 --> 01:02:04.827 money here, um what do you need? And so the money wagon would bend would 01:02:04.860 --> 01:02:10.267 back up and you'd do the really neat stuff by the time Bill got involved 01:02:10.300 --> 01:02:15.666 with things that hardly ever happened anymore. Um 01:02:15.699 --> 01:02:19.526 things like moving into the building, we argued about having the operating 01:02:19.559 --> 01:02:24.307 funds to open it times were a lot tougher, but but Bill did a good job of 01:02:24.340 --> 01:02:29.666 keeping the organization together and keeping the momentum moving forward. 01:02:29.699 --> 01:02:37.699 Barbara Bradford, um she was really tough to deal with. Um Mhm Barbara 01:02:38.880 --> 01:02:43.967 came into the organization because she was really cute and Lynn liked her 01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:48.166 and cut that out. 01:02:48.199 --> 01:02:50.467 Um 01:02:50.500 --> 01:02:56.637 I I don't know exactly how Lynn became aware of Barbara but he was clearly 01:02:56.670 --> 01:03:02.637 aware of her business acumen and and recruited her, he went after from the 01:03:02.670 --> 01:03:06.697 architectural college and by the way you called that she came from the 01:03:06.730 --> 01:03:12.566 dark side of campus architecture. 01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:16.816 Well, you know the thing is you, you you, I have to give people a little 01:03:16.849 --> 01:03:21.077 bit of a hard time once in a while, you know it, you know that the entire 01:03:21.110 --> 01:03:24.767 issue environment 01:03:24.800 --> 01:03:29.497 for a long, long time has been in my opinion, a very collegial environment 01:03:29.530 --> 01:03:32.666 , 01:03:32.699 --> 01:03:37.066 People want to help each other, they want things to be fun, they want 01:03:37.099 --> 01:03:43.967 things to be enjoyable, they want success to be a pleasure not a job. And 01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:51.767 Barbara came into the, the I. T. Organization um and took care of things 01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:55.847 from the business standpoint so that people like me that don't like to 01:03:55.880 --> 01:04:00.436 work with, budgets didn't have to and that's important. I mean I like to 01:04:00.469 --> 01:04:05.126 go do technology, I like to go do some other people things maybe, but I 01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:10.037 don't like to do budgets, I'd like to get things accomplished. The last 01:04:10.070 --> 01:04:18.070 name I have on the list is Darryl s bach about describing him. Um 01:04:18.190 --> 01:04:20.756 who knows? 01:04:20.789 --> 01:04:23.526 Um 01:04:23.559 --> 01:04:30.037 I'm a person that really could have been a mechanical engineer I think um 01:04:30.070 --> 01:04:35.407 I think that way I feel that way I I see most situations as problems that 01:04:35.440 --> 01:04:40.657 need to be solved and 01:04:40.690 --> 01:04:45.177 if you do enough analysis and you have a modicum of money, you ought to be 01:04:45.210 --> 01:04:53.210 able to make things work. Uh Now in addition to that, I see the manager 01:04:53.880 --> 01:04:59.706 whatever level as someone who really needs to deal with the people issues 01:04:59.739 --> 01:05:07.739 , most of the technology issues and other things that managers deal with 01:05:09.639 --> 01:05:13.356 in terms of programs and projects, 01:05:13.389 --> 01:05:16.796 you should be able to figure that out and if you can get the funding make 01:05:16.829 --> 01:05:20.557 it happen. But the things that are really tough are dealing with the 01:05:20.590 --> 01:05:28.590 people and managers that have been really successful and I'll pick on the 01:05:29.690 --> 01:05:34.646 person who is not anywhere near Lynn bellamy, he was really successful 01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:40.367 because he knew how to deal with people. Sometimes it's a carrot, 01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:44.896 sometimes it's a stick, Sometimes it's a kick upside the head. Lynn 01:05:44.929 --> 01:05:47.256 bellamy 01:05:47.289 --> 01:05:54.157 Fired Me one day because I got to 01:05:54.190 --> 01:05:59.017 brush about why we weren't doing things the right way. I'm an engineer and 01:05:59.050 --> 01:06:05.146 I know the right way, why aren't we doing them the right way? And mm hmm, 01:06:05.179 --> 01:06:08.887 he had a hard time doing it. But he said, I think you probably should look 01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:14.447 for a new job now, fortunately because of another really important person 01:06:14.480 --> 01:06:19.756 today. Issue that only lasted for about two weeks. George Morel and Lynn 01:06:19.789 --> 01:06:25.057 had a discussion or two and I don't know if it's an intervention or just a 01:06:25.090 --> 01:06:30.787 discussion. But at any rate, Lynn said, I think if you're looking for 01:06:30.820 --> 01:06:34.836 another job, you probably ought to quit doing that. And so we went back 01:06:34.869 --> 01:06:40.597 and I was a little more respectful after that. Um but the bottom line is 01:06:40.630 --> 01:06:46.456 that he really knew how to deal with people. Uh and there are some others 01:06:46.489 --> 01:06:50.247 around that do a good job. As a matter of fact, it was just when I just 01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:55.947 mentioned George Morel, he was wonderful working with people knowing what 01:06:55.980 --> 01:07:02.146 the rules are, knowing when to bend them, knowing how far you can bend 01:07:02.179 --> 01:07:10.179 them. But looking under the surface and my, my cut is that the better 01:07:10.659 --> 01:07:18.659 leaders are people who know the people part of it. Uh really well, a s U 01:07:19.630 --> 01:07:25.227 employees who would, you would like to give credit. Well, you know a issue 01:07:25.260 --> 01:07:29.017 is a very big organization and there's just a tremendous number of people 01:07:29.050 --> 01:07:37.050 um We've had wonderful experiences with uh some of the Deans. Uh I enjoyed 01:07:37.260 --> 01:07:41.927 Dean Thompson even though I didn't work with him that much. Um I enjoyed 01:07:41.960 --> 01:07:46.506 dan brink. He was one of the people that I worked with on advisory 01:07:46.539 --> 01:07:53.097 committees and things of that sort of lot. Ah But across the board, the 01:07:53.130 --> 01:07:58.157 bulk of the people you run into at a. S. U. Over the long haul have been 01:07:58.190 --> 01:08:03.796 just really really a pleasure to work with any other achievements that 01:08:03.829 --> 01:08:09.666 issue that you would mentioned. Well, there's a couple of things that I 01:08:09.699 --> 01:08:16.126 think very fondly of. Um 01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:19.237 I started a thing 01:08:19.270 --> 01:08:25.737 called the Aztec Free Net and I didn't start it but I was the instigator 01:08:25.770 --> 01:08:31.307 probably a better term at one of the West Net meetings. Um We were talking 01:08:31.340 --> 01:08:35.937 about things that are going on in the industry and in peoria Illinois, a 01:08:35.970 --> 01:08:40.946 group had started a thing called a Free Net. Now this is back before the 01:08:40.979 --> 01:08:44.536 internet, before NSF net was widely available, things that sort of was 01:08:44.569 --> 01:08:50.996 back in the dial up days, strictly dial up and it was an attempt by 01:08:51.029 --> 01:08:57.786 university types to get the community involved with computers and and a 01:08:57.819 --> 01:09:02.437 little bit of networking 01:09:02.470 --> 01:09:05.987 and what they did is they devoted some hardware resources and some 01:09:06.020 --> 01:09:13.737 programming resources and allowed people to have dial in access and 01:09:13.770 --> 01:09:21.696 eventually uh to have access to what we think of as the web. And I talked 01:09:21.729 --> 01:09:26.687 to a lot of people at a issue about it would be neat to have a free net 01:09:26.720 --> 01:09:32.496 here in Arizona. And then I got braces and I talked to people that were my 01:09:32.529 --> 01:09:40.529 contacts at deck and A T and T. And they were fairly encouraging and I 01:09:41.250 --> 01:09:47.567 remember I had, I've been having these kinds of sort of casual discussions 01:09:47.600 --> 01:09:50.727 for almost a year. One of them said, well what are you going to do 01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:56.307 something about this? Pathologies? This is fresh bok procrastinating again 01:09:56.340 --> 01:10:00.567 , isn't it? So at any rate I called a meeting, I asked everybody that I 01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:05.227 knew that it had shown any interest at all And we had two or 3 meetings 01:10:05.260 --> 01:10:09.647 and I said, well here's the problem. I have a little bit of resource that 01:10:09.680 --> 01:10:17.017 I can, at my own discretion throw into this. I've got some staff that if 01:10:17.050 --> 01:10:21.406 we needed a little programming help we could get it. And I have some staff 01:10:21.439 --> 01:10:26.326 that we needed some hardware looked at, we could take advantage of that. 01:10:26.359 --> 01:10:34.227 But we don't have any hardware with Dick said we'll give you a vax 01:10:34.260 --> 01:10:37.267 if you'll shut up and do this. They didn't say it that way. It was very 01:10:37.300 --> 01:10:44.817 nice and a T and t said we can we can supply some communications gear. And 01:10:44.850 --> 01:10:49.397 so the thing is on the basis of kind of gifts from those two locations, 01:10:49.430 --> 01:10:57.430 those two companies, we had a meeting down at the 01:10:59.460 --> 01:11:07.460 grade school down at rural and ready for school. No it's it's at the 01:11:07.960 --> 01:11:14.487 offices there at southern and rural. 01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:22.520 23 offices and There were probably 10 or 12 people there. And I said this 01:11:22.899 --> 01:11:28.956 is gonna be it, we're gonna fish or cut bait tonight. And we had what was 01:11:28.989 --> 01:11:32.647 the organizational meeting and pretty much everybody was there became an 01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:37.727 officer of one sort or another or had an assignment and my responsibility 01:11:37.760 --> 01:11:42.326 was to move forward. That free Net 01:11:42.359 --> 01:11:47.097 is technically still in existence. It has moved away from A. S. U. And 01:11:47.130 --> 01:11:51.317 it's totally on its own. Uh it's different than what we had originally set 01:11:51.350 --> 01:11:58.027 up. But the point is that it was a wonderful experience to see how you can 01:11:58.060 --> 01:12:03.626 mobilize people and get like minded interest to really do something of 01:12:03.659 --> 01:12:05.717 significance. 01:12:05.750 --> 01:12:12.817 one of the other really good memories is that 01:12:12.850 --> 01:12:17.177 when we were getting ready for the dedication of the commons building, we 01:12:17.210 --> 01:12:21.786 were talking about who could we have as keynote speaker and we kicked 01:12:21.819 --> 01:12:28.777 around names like al gore vice president, he was being touted as a big 01:12:28.810 --> 01:12:34.107 supporter of networking and all that sort of stuff for some reason. I was 01:12:34.140 --> 01:12:39.817 personally a little bit put off by that because he was a politician, not a 01:12:39.850 --> 01:12:45.916 really technologist. So at any rate I happened to mention to um well I 01:12:45.949 --> 01:12:50.177 mentioned I talked to my A T. And T rex and I said you know what would be 01:12:50.210 --> 01:12:57.166 really nice is to have some big technologist from A T. And T. Keynote this 01:12:57.199 --> 01:13:04.206 thing. Um is there someone that might well anyway, the A T. And T. Guy 01:13:04.239 --> 01:13:09.536 said, what would you think about the head of Bell Labs? I said well that 01:13:09.569 --> 01:13:13.946 sounds pretty good. Um who's the head of Bell Labs? Well, there's this 01:13:13.979 --> 01:13:19.137 fellow called Arno Penzias, he's a nobel laureate, he's the one that 01:13:19.170 --> 01:13:24.826 discovered the background radiation of the universe. And so a couple of 01:13:24.859 --> 01:13:31.517 weeks later the guy came back and said we've talked to Bill Labs and 01:13:31.550 --> 01:13:35.847 in the time frame that you're talking about for this dedication we think 01:13:35.880 --> 01:13:40.217 we can get our no do you want to get our known? And so we had Arno Penzias 01:13:40.250 --> 01:13:47.817 as the keynote speaker for the dedication. He and Laddie were 01:13:47.850 --> 01:13:52.836 pretty interesting pair and then one other technologist and and this is 01:13:52.869 --> 01:13:56.017 the wonderful thing about working in this environment. one other 01:13:56.050 --> 01:14:02.206 technologist that is just a blow your mind person is vinton cerf, he is 01:14:02.239 --> 01:14:08.336 the he's the real inventor of the internet, he's the one that had t shirts 01:14:08.369 --> 01:14:14.166 made up I pee on everything I. P. Standing for internet protocol. Um 01:14:14.199 --> 01:14:19.767 vintage is a real intellectual Arnaud is an unbelievable intellectual, 01:14:19.800 --> 01:14:27.800 having dinner with either of those guys is like being entertained by 01:14:27.939 --> 01:14:33.656 someone that you just can't imagine how smart they are at any rate. Uh 01:14:33.689 --> 01:14:38.446 those are the sorts of things that are really really fond memories of A. S. 01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:43.406 U. 01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:49.656 Okay well how about since you retired? When did you retire by the way? It 01:14:49.689 --> 01:14:56.166 all depends on you know we're having such fun. Well 01:14:56.199 --> 01:15:04.067 there's a lot of little things but basically it was time I retired in 01:15:04.100 --> 01:15:12.100 phases. I one of those people that had a lot of vacation time accrued. And 01:15:14.539 --> 01:15:17.006 I had heard 01:15:17.039 --> 01:15:22.477 a news report about jimmy carter president carter ah having an annual 01:15:22.510 --> 01:15:27.317 habitat. Big do he would go out and help build houses for a week or 01:15:27.350 --> 01:15:32.076 something of that sort. I said you know that's really a neat thing and for 01:15:32.109 --> 01:15:37.517 a president to do that that's really I I ought to do something useful like 01:15:37.550 --> 01:15:41.336 that. I'm getting old enough that I don't have anything much more to do 01:15:41.369 --> 01:15:48.506 with the issue and whatever. But a year later I heard the same news report. 01:15:48.539 --> 01:15:52.887 Well of course it was a year later news report. I said you know once 01:15:52.920 --> 01:15:57.487 again you are really a good procrastinator. You've managed to put this off 01:15:57.520 --> 01:16:01.767 for a whole year. And so 01:16:01.800 --> 01:16:09.357 I looked up the local habitat. I went to an orientation meeting the next 01:16:09.390 --> 01:16:15.187 saturday and I started becoming, yeah Barbara went with me and and it was 01:16:15.220 --> 01:16:21.057 very encouraging about all this. I think it it helped a lot at any rate. 01:16:21.090 --> 01:16:26.126 The bottom line is that I started volunteering at habitat. Well, that tied 01:16:26.159 --> 01:16:30.956 to the fact that I had a lot of accrued vacation time. I started taking 01:16:30.989 --> 01:16:37.397 Fridays off of his vacation days and doing habitat on Fridays. It was a 01:16:37.430 --> 01:16:45.430 little less noisy and little more orderly. Um, to, to do that. And so I, I 01:16:46.050 --> 01:16:53.637 , I did that. And then, um, I think it was 2002, I officially went to 01:16:53.670 --> 01:17:01.670 halftime and the idea of going to halftime was too 01:17:03.430 --> 01:17:09.717 allow some budget relief for the department and still kind of care take 01:17:09.750 --> 01:17:15.246 some of the things that were going on. And when I went to halftime, I said 01:17:15.279 --> 01:17:20.616 , well, you know, I could do more than just Fridays now. So I kind of 01:17:20.649 --> 01:17:26.687 geared up the habitat stuff And then eventually a couple of years later I 01:17:26.720 --> 01:17:32.696 retired fully and Have transition to about four days of work at Habitat. 01:17:32.729 --> 01:17:38.057 And when did you move into the community that you're in now? Oh, geez, 01:17:38.090 --> 01:17:42.296 when did I move into a friendship village 01:17:42.329 --> 01:17:44.597 2003. 01:17:44.630 --> 01:17:50.796 I had to be 60 to get in there. Yeah. You need to, you need 01:17:50.829 --> 01:17:54.927 be a little bit older. And, but that wasn't the big consideration. Big 01:17:54.960 --> 01:17:59.906 consideration was barber and I decided that we got along a lot better if 01:17:59.939 --> 01:18:04.817 we live separately. And so I said, I don't want to move again. So I'm 01:18:04.850 --> 01:18:11.046 going to move someplace. It's semi terminal. I have one other topic. We'll 01:18:11.079 --> 01:18:18.987 just insert it somewhere. But Y, two K. Y. Two K. 01:18:19.020 --> 01:18:22.786 Y. two K. stands for 01:18:22.819 --> 01:18:27.756 the unknown. And literally I think that's that's what it really ended up 01:18:27.789 --> 01:18:35.456 being. Most people we weren't sure of what was going to happen. 01:18:35.489 --> 01:18:39.086 Systems are so complicated 01:18:39.119 --> 01:18:46.576 that almost no one knows how they really work under the covers. Um I'm old 01:18:46.609 --> 01:18:51.857 enough so that there was a time when you had a wrench and a couple of 01:18:51.890 --> 01:18:56.897 pliers and maybe even a small hammer you could work on an automobile. But 01:18:56.930 --> 01:19:02.336 today you gotta have a computer, you gotta have some reference tools. Um 01:19:02.369 --> 01:19:07.427 The average person can't yeah deal with what's under the hood of an 01:19:07.460 --> 01:19:14.576 automobile and even the way above average person doesn't know for sure 01:19:14.609 --> 01:19:20.607 what code is hidden somewhere in the back of a major application that 01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:25.967 might have a date dependence and that's what caused all the fur off your 01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:32.286 about why to gain as it turns out we were fortunate almost no systems were 01:19:32.319 --> 01:19:39.286 that fragile and life went on very pleasantly. 01:19:39.319 --> 01:19:47.319 Your career has spanned the history of computers I would say almost it um 01:19:48.220 --> 01:19:56.220 Yes it's been I really feel like I can look back and see Computing when I 01:19:57.189 --> 01:20:04.137 first got into it in 63 as truly in its infancy. There were computers 01:20:04.170 --> 01:20:09.796 before that. Um But they were very specialized. But the technology of 01:20:09.829 --> 01:20:14.387 computing and everything has been a tremendous development and it's 01:20:14.420 --> 01:20:19.196 wonderful when it works. Thank you for the interview and thank you for 01:20:19.229 --> 01:20:24.177 your service. There is one other quick thing I want you to know, but logos 01:20:24.210 --> 01:20:27.076 are really important. 01:20:27.109 --> 01:20:29.677 I 01:20:29.710 --> 01:20:34.876 made ties, I'm wearing one today. I made ties for my staff. Once we 01:20:34.909 --> 01:20:39.277 established the telecom, 01:20:39.310 --> 01:20:45.376 this mug was handed out to everyone at A. S. U. When we rewired the campus. 01:20:45.409 --> 01:20:51.666 It has references to most of the various um peace parts of the technology 01:20:51.699 --> 01:20:58.187 that were involved with that. And those kinds of symbols are just really a 01:20:58.220 --> 01:21:03.006 part of what's important in terms of people getting on board. They think 01:21:03.039 --> 01:21:09.006 about the red book or the logo or those sorts of things. Almost as much as 01:21:09.039 --> 01:21:13.256 they think about really what's going on except when it doesn't go on. And 01:21:13.289 --> 01:21:19.229 then they think about that exclusively. Thank you. Thank you.