at the time I retired, I was a member of the, what was in the department
of accounting now with the school of accountancy as a faculty member, just
for a little bit of background, why don't you tell us when you were born
and where you were born? I was born way back in 1919
in grand rapids michigan.
And um what did your family do with my family? Were in the furniture
business. Grand rapids was at that time probably the furniture capital of
the world. And my father who was a dutch immigrant boy who had come over
at the age of 13, I began by working in furniture factories, but then
before too long became superintendent of a very large plant in grand
rapids and then subsequently went into the retail business which he was in
until he retired. Did you help out in the businesses? I have worked there.
Oh, yes, I've worked, I've worked on the bench making furniture in
factories and I have been on the sales floor and so on. Yes. So as a boy
growing up, what did you, do you have any idea what you're going to do
when you grow up? Well, I first of all wanted an education and that was
the thing that the family very much supported. So I knew I would go to
college and while in college, I first had the notion of going to law
school. However, I kind of rethought that one and simply got a liberal
arts education.
And where did you go to college? It was a small school in grand rapids
called Calvin College. Which from its name you might conclude is probably
church because it's named after john Calvin of course. And it is a part of
the dutch reform group of people. So what was your major? I majored in
sociology and economics. That's an interesting combination. How did you
come up with that combination? Uh I think mostly because of the professors
, I've always been a person who goes with the people. Uh you get great
knowledge and great great preparation if you if you get the right people,
whatever the subject. What was your first job out of college? Ah My first
job, remember of course this was Depression Days. My first job was an
inspector in a metal producing factory. That I don't mean they produce
metal. Let me restate that. The metal parts for the auto industry. I
worked for 40 cents an hour. That doesn't seem to have much relationship
to your college education.
I could have done that without finishing high school. So how long did you
do that? About two years. And then I went to work in a furniture
manufacturing firm because I could work piece work there and makes 60
cents an hour? Big deal.
What time period was that again? This was in the late thirties and running
up to World War Two.
So what did you do during World War Two? Well I was in the service for
more than three years overseas in the mediterranean area for 28 months.
Any special things there. What what part of the service were you in? I was
in the, what was then called the Army Air Corps. I had seven battle stars.
So I was in the war. Were you a pilot? I was a radio man. But you were
flying part of the time. How did you earn those stars? Well you you earned
those by simply being a participant in in defined battles. The other thing
I learned which which you have to earn is a brown star which is for duties
and activities beyond the minimum one has to perform. Was there a special
event that? Well there was a series of things actually and I have lost the
document that accompanied and I frankly don't remember what it said. Mhm.
Doesn't seem like that's something you'd forget. Well I do. I have so he
went from from michigan into the services. That's correct. And then what
did you do when you came back? So I decided I didn't want to live in
michigan anymore. So I went to Denver. Why Denver? Partly because I had an
uncle there who might have visited prior to the war and found it a very
attractive place and I thought it was going to be a growing place in an
exciting place to live. What did you do there?
Having had some experience in the furniture game? I decided that I would
found a furniture manufacturing firm
because upon doing a little bit of informal market research I concluded
that they lacked a manufacturer making high end furniture which was my
specialty. So I went into that business and did rather well.
What kind of furniture?
How long did you do that? I do it, that's that until I came here 14 years
later. What brought you to Arizona? Maybe you ought to ask me what else I
did when I was in Denver? Well because you understand now I've had a
liberal arts education and yet I ended up as a professor in business. One
doesn't do that without some education and business does one. So um the gi
bill was of course an effect at that time and I thought I might as well
take advantage of it. So I went to the University of Denver and got a
bachelor's degree in accounting
then I enjoyed that so much and it's still time on the G. I. Bill, so why
not get a master's degree? So I did that. Of course, you understand this
is all at night.
And upon concluding that the then chairman of the accounting department
says Bill, why don't you teach a course for me in the fall? And I said
yeah that would be kind of a kick, I'll give that a try by the end of this
fall quarter. He said Bill why don't you come and teach full time for me.
And I said whoa I've got a business to run and full time was 15 hours of
teaching at the University of Denver at that time, he said, ah you can do
it. So I said, well, I'll give it a try. So from then on I talked 15 hours
at the University of Denver and ran a business. How did you do? It takes
to be young. That helps and you have to have a very high energy level and
a willingness to forego a lot of social life. Then I took a leave from
both the University of Denver and my business to get a PhD at the
University of michigan.
And then I came here. What made you decide to leave your business? And
the fact is that I had been coming to this area for a kind of a winter
break in late March for a number of years. And on the occasion in 1959
that I came down as you have just become a university. And I knew that I
thought, well go out to that campus and look it over and be kind of a kick.
So I did. And found my way to the College of Business and they're of
course met Glenn Overman who was the dean. Well, to make the long story
short before I left that later that week, I had glenn saying, Bill, why
don't you come down and join us in the fall to which I responded,
glen, I can't do that, I have a business to run. And they're expecting me
back at the University of Denver. Well he put the grain of an idea into my
mind and I started cohabitating on that one. And it led me to explore the
possibility of selling the business and I lead a charmed life I think
because of a buyer came along and wanted to buy my business at my price at
just the critical moment. So I said why not? And moved here now, that was
before or after you got your PhD. I had completed all of the work on the
PhD but had not yet written a dissertation.
So you had taken that break and gone to michigan
actually I took a year off here to go back and do the dissertation.
So when did you actually come to work at A. S. U. In the fall of 1959?
That same year that things moved quickly.
What was that actually like in 1959? Well it was a very intimate kind of
place. Like I still want to remember going to the Memorial Union for
coffee in the morning crossing busy college avenue with all of its car
traffic and uh and then spending time with people from all parts of the
university. It was a small community then. And as I say, it was a
remarkably friendly community. I remember that fall going to an event in
Grady Gammage his backyard and as you probably know, he lived on the
campus and meeting just all the newcomers there and, and having, having
just a wonderful social event. It was a small school. The College of
Business had I think 12 professors at that time or so well, by that time
it was a little more when they started it was 12, but that many years
later it had grown considerably already. I think there were close to about
10,000 students here at the time. And what was your first job? My first
job was as an assistant professor in the department of accounting
assistant professor. You had your masters and we're working on your and of
course even at that time you needed to have the PhD or you weren't going
to be retained. Where was the College of Business located? It was in the,
the, what was once the agriculture business building, which is a wing from
the administration building, but the College of Business had taken over
the entire building by that time. And so how large was it again? The
college itself really? I don't have those figures at hand. I'd have to
make a speculative guess. I'd rather not. Okay. Um,
but it was a small, fairly small department or was it a college at that
time? It was a college and become a college in 1955. Even though the issue
was still in college and not a university,
we had colleges within the college back in those days. It's always been
something that confuses me, always get it wrong and offend somebody. Um So
who was the chairman of the department? Who was it that hired you? Well,
the chairman was charlie Burton who had had been here since 1941. He had
come just just prior to the start of the war, but he was a youngish man
with a family and so he never had to go into service and he stayed on and
continued until his retirement in oh there seven mid seventies I'd say,
what was he like? He's a charming guy. He he was a C. P. A of course and
did practice. In fact, he even did some practice while he was a professor.
But no, he was he was just a delightful man. And you mentioned that the
university president at that time was Grady Gammage, but he I arrived in
september 1st september here and he died in december as I recall. Was that
what was that like? Well it was for the community. I I met him only once,
so it didn't affect me terribly personally, but for the community, it was
pretty devastating at the time because he was a greatly respected and much
loved leader here.
How did things change after that? I think the biggest change was that by
fall of 60 and then that's pretty fast in today's world, by the way, you
don't get new presidents that quickly today. But by fall of 60 we had a
new president and it was ji Homer Durham and it turns out in my personal
view that one of the best things that ever happened to issue was hiring
Gee homer Durham who was a great catalyst, great leader, charismatic
leader, a a dreamer, a futurist and along with that and just an absolutely
wonderful man of unquestioned integrity, one of my most admired people. Do
you have any special stories that you remember about him? Well, there are
a lot of, a lot of stories I guess one could refer to in the general
history. He was he was a man who of many parts he was what I'd call a
renaissance man. He was a great academician. He had high standards, but
along with that, believe it or not, he's the one that's responsible for
the Fiesta bowl. He was the one who dreamed that idea up and and and
fostered it. One of the things I do remember about him was in 1967
when I was chairman of the accounting department. Glenn Overman went off
on a six month sabbatical. So I had also to be acting Dean during his
absence. So here I am chairman of the department and Acting Dean. And G
Homer calls over and says, come on over Bill, I want to talk to you and I
said, okay, uh he said, you know, we've just lost our controller here in
the university, I want you to take on the job of controller. Well, it
struck me that two jobs was funny. Three was one too many. So I had to say
to ji homer really. You understand, I have these obligations with Glenn
and so on. So of course that went by the board but it was wonderful to be
thought of highly enough to be asked.
Well, tell me a little bit about what your responsibilities were when you
first started here as an assistant professor teaching 12 hours, which was
an improvement over the 15 hours. I was teaching at the University of
Denver. Ah but it was mainly teaching and counseling students for that
first year. How was the pay here? Well, that's an interesting point. You
have to realize that I was a pretty successful businessman in Denver and
was accustomed to a fairly high standard of living. And so the $6250
contract I was given my first year was not going to support my standard of
living and I'll be very candid with you. I would never have taken a full
time position in education if I had had to try to live on what was being
paid in those days, fortunately I had the luxury of supplementary income
from my previous operations. Did you start other businesses down here then
? No, no, no. My commitment to education from then on the rest of my life.
Tell me a little bit about how your career progressed from being an
assistant professor. Well that was the first year as I said and before the
first year was out Glenn called me and Glenn Overman Of course when I say
Glenn you'll know who I mean. Glenn called me in and said you know Bill I
don't have anyone in the office for me. All he had by the way was a
secretary and some student help to run the college
if you want to contrast that with today's world why I invite you to do so
um
He said I really need an assistant dean and I would like to have you to be
my assistant dean. So what do I say? Well of course I said yes so for the
next two years I was also his assistant dean. And then in the fourth year
I was here that's when I took my leave without pay to go back to michigan
to do the dissertation.
Why did you go ahead and do that? Why did you feel the need to go back and
do that to do the dissertation? Well there were several reasons for it. I
am the main one being if I wanted to stay at A. S. U. I had to complete
the degree or I'm I'm history. That would be a good enough reason by
itself wouldn't it? But the other part of it is very candidly for better
or for worse the academic world requires you to have that degree if you're
going to be first class citizen and I'd like to be a first class citizen.
So when you came back from that, then what was your position back to his
assistant professor for one semester?
And then Glenn called me in and said I'm going to replace charlie Burton
as the chairman of the accounting department. I want you to become the
chairman. So of course I said yes.
And then for the next 5.5 years I was chairman of the accounting
department. And during, as I mentioned before, during that 16 month period
, also acting dean and teaching except for that one semester. So the
chairman of the apartment department, what were your responsibilities?
Well, of course it was administration of everything, hiring, recruiting,
managing the, the budget and I taught six hours, which was in halftime.
And how was the university changing during that time? Well, this was the
period of the sixties with Homer Durham, which I consider some really
glory years in the history of this institution. We were growing
numerically, but more importantly we were growing in terms of stature and
quality because gee Homer was a person who absolutely drove you in that
direction. And so it was, it was the most gratifying period. Uh it's more
specifically in the college of business. One of the important things that
happened. Maybe one of the most important things that happened during that
decade was the fact that we became accredited by the accrediting body of
business schools. This is a professional school accreditation over and
above of course the North Central and it turned out that that happened
while I was assistant dean. And so I spearheaded that and pretty much
wrote the two volume report that had to be prepared and then went with
Glenn to the meetings in Chicago at which we were granted full
accreditation on our first application. Rather an unusual thing. And some
perhaps more prestigious school of those that were applying at the same
time were turned down. So I guess we must have done things right. What
difference did it make to be accredited? Oh it means that your credits are
accepted by all other major institutions. They would question them that
you'd even get questions in for in some states For example from states
boards of accountancy if your accounting students wanted to sit for the C
. P. A. Exam in that state if they didn't have their degree from an
accredited school and I mean accredited by the professional accrediting
body they might reject them. So yes it became very it was a very important
development. So did that change as a as a school or college of the
students that you were getting students adopted? It had a lot of effect on
that after all. There are a lot of accredited schools, many of them much
older than a. S. U. I. I doubt that.
Do you remember any other things that were going on on campus at that time
that that you got involved in or that you just observed? Well yes I think
one of the important ones again from the college point of view was that we
established our own PhD program that happened during the middle sixties.
And that was a very significant thing. And it really brought us a lot of
attention and probably did a lot to enhance our reputation
and to be involved in. That was an exciting event. What did that take? How
do you, well if you have of course first of all to get approval from the
top administration here at the university and then from the board of
regions. But you have to do a lot of research indicating what kind of a
degree you're going to give, what the composition is going to be. You know
all the details have to be set forth. It took a lot of study, it took a
lot of comparison with other institutions. Uh And you have to have a
mission statement, a kind of a goal. You know and you have to pretty much
demonstrate that you're going to be able to recruit some people into the
program.
Talk a little bit about them how how the College of Business grew when you
came here through the years.
Well I think we grew more than we ever intended to. The fact is that by
1980 or so this college of business here was numerically in terms of not
full time equivalent students, but actual total student body, one of the
two or three largest colleges of business in the US. That's not what we
set out to do. But it happened of course we were in a tremendously growing
population area here metro and we were getting a lot of out of state
students because the reputation of the school had been so enhanced by
events that we became an attractive destination for a lot of these
students. So there was a lot of growth. I think though I'd rather
emphasize the fact that we improved the quality of what we offered and we
were constantly working on that, improving the curriculum. I can remember
going way back for a moment to 1960. Glenn asked me to chair the
curriculum committee in the college and the major goal I had there was in
view of our impending accreditation to have a program that we could truly
be proud of because at that time colleges and business were being
criticized and fairly so for being too much of a trade school and too
little real education if I may put it that way. And so we constructed a
curriculum at that time which was somewhat innovative in which we required
all business students to do no less than 45% of their work in general
Studies
and then another 45% in business courses with the remaining 10% free
electives And that was I think a notable event and one of the things that
made our application for accreditation more credible because the trend in
those days was correctly, in my view toward more of a liberal education
along with the specialized education.
It seems like today the emphasis is a lot on getting the M. B. A. The
master. That's true. Did that happen back in those days? But at the time I
came here we did not have an M. B. A. We had a master of science and
accounting and a master of science in business administration.
We did then adopt an NBA later on and dropped that M. S. In in business
administration.
But no there was not anywhere near as much emphasis on the graduate side
at that time we were essentially an undergraduate school with a small
graduate program. So at that time were you turning out more people that
were going to become C. P. A. S or what what was the goal? Well of course
there are quite a few different specialties as you know within the college
of business. Accounting was a very popular major at that time. But then so
it's marketing and so it was management, so was finance? Uh No, I I don't
think the balance there was particularly different perhaps from what it is
now, there were just a lot more students in the later stages,
how did the college as it grew in size? I imagine that you had to get new
building or move out of?
Well, again, it was a matter of getting money, always the big problem and
planning the building. So when we were quite certain we were going to find
the money which came from a range of sources, frankly, some of it from the
legislature, some of it from other sources,
we constituted building committee and uh Glenn again said Bill, will you
chair of the building committee? So naturally, I said yes, so we planned
the new building knowing full well that they've given the dollars we had,
we would end up with a building that was inadequate in terms of its
capacity. But then we thought, well design it in such a way that we can
add to it conveniently in a few years. So we designed this building which
was, I wouldn't say unique, but it was unusual for its time in the sense
that most of the classrooms were built on multiple levels, you know, kind
of a case study rather than the old fashioned flat on with a professor up
on a platform and this will prove to be of course, an absolutely brilliant
move because it made professors more effective. It brought about more
participation in the classroom. And I think that was one of our great
motivations and having done this. And then of course, Glenn got the idea
that he'd get some businesses and so on to provide art for the room. So we
had a kind of a combination of business and art and our our building
became quite a, quite a noted building for for those reasons we occupied
it as I recall in 1968
by 1971 we already were occupying the addition and even that very soon, of
course proved to be inadequate. So we had to get classes in other parts of
the campus because our building was 100% used morning, afternoon and
evening.
Was there discussion then about another building? Only at the very end of
my career, pretty much just about the time that I went back to full time
teaching, which was 1981 is when the notion of the new building came into
into effect. And of course that was considered not a substitute building,
but an additional facility, which it is to this day. Were you part of the
planning? But the fact is, I was chaired a committee but we came up with a
plan that was rejected by the top administration. And then it was deferred
for a while until after Glenn and I both left our positions and went back
to teaching and another committee came in and designed a totally different
kind of building, which is what we have today. What would you, what was
the building you designed? We wanted to be integrated as right as a part
of the existing building and not to be a tower of six story tower. But
then there are different concepts of what things should be. So what do you
think of the building as it is today? Well, I guess my major observation,
there are two things that I would observe about it. First of all our
philosophy was that the top administrators ought to be accessible and I'm
not saying they're not accessible today, but we deliberately, in our
original design of our building put the Dean's office and the most
conspicuous, most easily approached place anywhere in the building, right
on the first floor off the patio and a lot of students and faculty came in
a lot. And now of course the Dean's office and it's complex is on the top
story, the story of the six story tower. And you know, to me that there's
a different message, but I'm not criticizing. I'm merely saying we have
different philosophies apparently about this kind of thing. The other
thing is that a new philosophy came into effect about the size of classes.
We had pretty stringent rules about maximum size on classes and we
avoided any kinds of big lecture hall sections. We didn't like these two
and 300 student sections, but they built those in of course to the new
building because of a different philosophy. So how large were the classes
back when you're ready? There were, there was one originally one bill
classroom in the, in the building and then subsequently on the addition,
the second one in which it was possible to have classes of about 100 but
we would use only the introduction to business class. We put that in that
room. Most of the other classes were pretty much in the 40 range,
occasionally a little more someone.
What sort of classes did you teach when I thought such a range of classes
that it's hard to remember them all starting with elementary accounting.
And then when we got our doctoral program, the first doctoral seminar for
accounting specialists and a different doctoral seminar for non accounting
doctoral students. Um I taught governmental accounting, I taught advanced
accounting consolidations.
I taught master's programs, case study. I even one time caught. Yeah, I
taught a course in the College of Education, Accounting for educational
administrators,
which was an interesting experience and they do do a lot of accounting and
huge budget now. Okay, looking back on your career, is there anything
particular that stands out to you that you're particularly proud of or was
particularly interesting?
Well, I think if I'm going to be proud of anything of what I did, I think
it's my caring for students.
I think it was a good administrator because I had a lot of experience in
administration before I came here and I think Glenn recognized that, but
still to me being an educator is educating and it's the close
relationships you have with your students and the effect you might have on
them, not only in teaching them the subject matter, but in affecting their
view of life, maybe having a little bit to do with the kinds of values by
which they live. I think that's the responsibility of an educator and I
think I was pretty successful at that. Which is, can be, can be pretty
much supported by some of the events that have occurred involving some of
those former students since then. Can you give us some examples? Oh, I
suppose the outstanding example would be a student I had in the late
sixties who I helped them get into stanford to get his MBA and who became
a pioneer in Silicon Valley as a venture capitalist and became an
extremely successful venture capitalist who, something like four years ago
, three years ago suddenly called in and said, well it's time for payback.
So he funded scholarships in my name at the issue with a gift of about
$1.2 million.
I think that's kind of an indication of of having had a relationship with
a student that really mattered. Pretty wonderful gift. Mhm. Um can you
tell us his name? His name is john Mumford. He's now pretty much left the
venture capital game partly I think because there's not much venture
capital going on in these days, but also because john is after all
reaching the age in which he's ready to retire and he has plenty of
resources to retire on
probably because of you that he was willing to put something back here?
Well that's true, that's absolutely true. Those scholarships are being
awarded every year of course. And a little sideline on that. He said, well
it's for you. I want them to your name. And I said john there ain't gonna
be no scholarships unless your names on them too. So they now have both of
our names on them. Are you involved in choosing? No. That's done by people
within the school of accountancy. They have a committee that's appointed
for that. Can you think of any other notable students?
Quite a few. Well one very notable student. I might as well name names
while we're about it I guess would be Tony historica who came here from
Superior. Arizona became an honor student in accounting, went into public
accounting. But for the last quite a number of years have been like number
two men at blue cross blue shield Arizona right there with bob bullock.
Everybody knows bob. Of course, another one of our distinguished
graduates. Ah Probably another student I'd mentioned from that same era in
the late sixties Craig Weatherup who became the Ceo of Pepsico and he's
now retired here back in the valley. Yet another one bob short again from
the late sixties. That must have been a particularly good period I guess.
He ended up in Denver as a believe it or not, a real estate development
person and again, extremely successful. Retired now in montecito
California. Just as a few examples but many more do you keep up personal
relationships with some of them? Absolutely,
Absolutely. Contact with them fairly frequently.
Great.
We'll talk a little bit more about how the university changed over those
years. We talked about Homer Duro, what about some of the other when he
left some of the other presidents because he was followed by Harry, New
Bern and Harry had come here in the College of Education. He had been a
president of some other institution. I can't remember where at the moment
he became acting president when Ji Homer Durham went back to Utah, he was
acting president for one year and during that year a search for a new
president was unsuccessful.
So then they put her in and inaugurate him, installed him. And you know,
we went through all of the activities that that entails. Harry was more or
less of a caretaker and rightly so. Uh and then of course he was followed
by john Suara and he by Russ nelson, which as far as I go with the, with
the president's. Um these were honorable men, all of them. But of course I
always come back to Jihad or as being the epitome of what a president
ought to be. But these other people did some great things for the, for the
institution. There's no question about that, but each had his own style.
Each had his own vision and
throughout it all the institution I failed to while it grew to what it is
today and probably what the second or third largest university in the
country, ah public university because I, I'm recognized at the university
of phoenix. If you figure all the people they have online and far exceeds
what the issue has. Uh but it, I think more important was the stature and
the recognition because when you look at a lot of our programs today and I
know best those in the college of Business. Of course, we have attained
some real national stature and recognition when you have programs that are
recognized in the top 25 in the country. I think that's, that's rather
notable and to me that's a much greater attainment than being the third
largest university in the US.
Did you ever think it would get so large? Never, never would have dreamed
it, but then I think neither did anyone else, even though you, you looked
at all of the data that might have been analyzed in anticipation would
never have anticipated that there would be such an influx of people who
historically had not been getting a university education and I think that
has made a tremendous difference here.
And what about the growth of phoenix? Well, that of course is again
astronomical. I mean, it's hard to believe I came here partly to get away
from the big city in Denver? Yeah. Now, of course phoenix, Metro is
considerably bigger than Metro Denver, but who can foresee these things,
but we, we adjust, we developed, we work when we grow. Do you think that's
a good thing? That it's a mixed blessing? Of course, I mean the quality of
life to some extent has suffered I think happily of course many of us are
spared having to drive in the rush hour traffic, but we've had advantages
out of it. We have arts, wonderful arts programs here in the metro area
that we could not have had were not a major, major place. So no, there
there there it's a mixed blessing always.
I could get a little bit more about as you and the growth here. Um
do you see it as a different kind of place? I mean you've been retired for
quite a while now. Um Well of course a lot of the growth happened even
before I retired. It has continued to grow, It's true, but even by the
time I retired we had of course lost a lot of the intimacy that we had
early on, the camaraderie,
ah it just became too big and anymore I would, from what I can tell, I
feel that not only do most faculty members not know people of very many of
their colleagues across the university, I think many of them don't know
very many of their colleagues within their own college and possibly in
some cases, maybe not all the people within their own department, it's
become that kind of place because of this tremendous growth. And and for
one other factor, there has been a substantial shift in the emphasis of
what's expected of faculty and maybe I could hold for us on that for just
a moment, certainly in the College of business, back in my days there and
with Glenn Overman, when we were of one mind in this matter, we believe
that a college had the obligation to do outstanding teaching, to do some
research and publications and to do service both internally and externally.
And of course that's, everybody says that, however, how you apply it
makes a difference. And our philosophy on that was first of all that we
didn't expect that every person who came to join our faculty was going to
excel in everything. It simply isn't in the cards. And so our philosophy
was, let's hire someone who excels at least in something and is adequate
and the others on the theory, again that a college or a department or a
university can do very well in all of those three areas. Without each
individual participating equally in the areas.
In other words, we're saying, let's concentrate on the strengths and
interests of each individual and the totality of what we get out of the
group of people will be quite satisfactory.
That was really our philosophy, I have the feeling and I'm glad to be
proven wrong on this one. I have the feeling that the emphasis has shifted
considerably to where each individual on the faculty is now expected to be
extremely successful and with a greater emphasis on research and
publications. In fact if you don't pretty much excel in that in publishing
the right journals and so on, you're probably history and that's that is
the change. And this was of course not that we didn't treasure good
research and publication and indeed we have quite a few faculty who were
nationally and internationally famous even many years ago, but more of a
concept that it's the totality of what you get rather than looking at each
individual that really matters. That's a different philosophy about the
whole field of accounting and business. Um It seems like there's been some
changes at least in the last decade or so with everything going to
computers? Oh yeah, it's a totally different world. I'm glad I'm out of it
because back in my days, you know the the high tech stuff was punch cards
and I never got into that, even I'm simply not a high tech type. But yes
it has changed dramatically, especially looking at the field of accounting
has changed even more dramatically in the last three years thanks to
things like Enron and the loss of Arthur Andersen and that kind of thing
and we've really faced a crisis here of credibility, of integrity within
that profession? Can you talk a little bit about that. Did you ever think
you'd see Arthur Andersen? Well I had great pride in being in a C. P. A.
And being a part of that profession and I was always the one who felt that
we did an extraordinarily good job of maintaining integrity of having high
standards and we did a lot of self policing.
But what's happened in our world today and I'm afraid it's part of our
total society really is that we've come to the point that we we don't
really worry much about standards and values and integrity as much as we
once did broadly speaking and everything is the buck. It's it's how many
dollars can I get out of this thing? And when you get corporate officers,
top officers whose goal is not to look after the stockholders and the
employees and all those people, but rather look after their own bank
account and they will do almost anything to feather their own nest. We've
got a serious problem. And when the accounting profession is either
knowingly or unknowingly permitting that sort of thing to happen, we
deservedly are going to be criticized.
And of course the epitome of what happened, what can happen is as you say
Arthur Andersen, I know I never would have dreamed that one of the major
accounting firms would be so involved and would be so foolish as try to
cover up something that obviously was wrong. All they had to do was look
at Richard Nixon to find out what happens when you try to stonewall you
get caught and they got caught and they deserved what they got in my view
. I hope it's a lesson to the other big firms.
Ask a question. Sure. Um what was ethics taught as as a subject?
Yeah, Yeah. Talk a little bit about, did you teach ethics when you were
teaching accounting? Did we? The answer to that is that we did not really
have a separate ethics course that would require students to take. I'm not
sure that that's the right way to teach ethics. First of all, I happen to
believe that values and ethics and so on. Start very early in life. I
don't think they started at the university. They start in the family in
early schooling, in churches where people are church members, that's where
it ought to be. And then if it's enhanced when one gets to the university
, I think it's best done right in individual courses. I taught ethics and
accounting courses and I think you can teach something about values and
standards, no matter what you're teaching. So while I don't denigrate the
notion of having ethics courses, because we're doing that in my profession
, we're doing that Marianne Jennings is doing a lot of that of course in
the College of Business and I think it may help, it certainly can't hurt.
But still, I don't think it's a solution to the problem of, of having
high standards and values?
I wish it were that simple.
What sort of advice do you give to people today that are considering going
into business and accounting?
Well I guess I don't have much occasion today to talk to very many people
who are doing that for starters. So it's more more like a hypothetical
question of what would I say to them? Well for starters, let's be specific
about accounting. I'm not quite certain that I would urge a lot of
students to go into accounting today until they get their house in order.
On the other hand, I think it's fair to say that while there's been a lot
of publicity about a few and this always happens. Of course you get the
few bad apples and it sort of taints the whole barrel. And I think that
the standards and values that most accounting firms are are living by
today, especially with the smaller firms with smaller clients are every
bit as good as they've ever been. But it's the big firms that somehow have
lost their way along with
not only the firms, the business leadership, the stock market people, the
brokerage houses, they've all lost their way and each one feeds on the
other and then it becomes synergistic after a while, it all becomes part
of a pattern. So no, I wouldn't steer people away particularly from it,
but I think they ought to go in with their eyes open because they can go
in sometimes too idealistic and and then they're going to be damaged. Do
you think you can be too idealistic? I'm sorry, you can't be too
idealistic. No, I don't think it can be too idealistic. But uh I mean
idealistic with stars in your eyes and and without looking at the
realities, I think there's a danger of that. Do you think a lot of people
today go into business and go to school for business thinking that that's
how they're going to make their fortune?
Of course they do. And there's way too much emphasis on that as though the
sole goal in life is to see who dies richest. That seems to be kind of the
goal today too much way too much.
We need some values and we need to return to a system of values. If that's
possible. It seems like you certainly didn't by changing from being a
business owner to an educator. Your goal wasn't to die the richest. On the
contrary, I probably could have died a lot of richer than I will if I had
not made the move. There's no question about that. But there are values in
life, as I say, that transcend
making a lot of money. It's it's it's like everything else in life. How
much is enough then you should say there are other things you want to do.
And so that's the way I live my life?
Mhm.
I think I've answered most of the questions I had for you. Is there
anything you came here thinking you wanted to tell us that I didn't ask
you? Well, I don't know if you're at all interested in what kind of things
I've done since I retired. That might be an interesting question. I'll be
an interviewer myself. You're well, I didn't come very involved out in the
community, which I didn't have time to do as I think you can detect from
my earlier story. So among my love, my first love is the is the Botanical
Garden where I've been on the board for most of the last 15 years and I
have served them as treasurer and as president of the board, Treasurer of
the $17 million capital campaign not so long ago. And, and in a wide range
of other activities, special projects of one kind and another. So that's
been one of my first loves, my first love. But secondarily I'm on the
board at Ballet Arizona where I'm also on the finance committee. We always
get put on the finance committee, you know how that was. And doing some
other special projects task forces of one kind and another. And then a
range of other things. A committee of the state board of accountancy eh
committee of the Arizona Society of CPAs Rose Garden Task force at Mesa
Community College. And I've been asked recently to start working with them
on the arboretum at CSU East. Uh and a few other little things keep your
hand in. Well, you know, it's, I'm not one of those people who says I'm
busy or known when I worked. I no, no, no, no, I'm only a fractionally as
busy, fractionally as busy as I was then. But uh first of all I don't, I
don't like to sit around and wait for something to happen. I prefer to be
one of the people who helped make things happen. And so I do these things
, it's gratifying, you can have a sense of, of having contributed
something and I want to go right down to the last day if I can doing that
sort of thing. Great. Did either of you have some questions that you
covered a lot of territory? Thank you. Bill did it in an hour to just a
word maybe about when you came to Tempe. It was small. You might talk
about how it grew, where did you live? And have you moved since you still
live in Tempe? Um let me talk to me about that. Um when I first came here
, being a person who, my being
a person who doesn't want to make uh irrevocable commitments and then wish
you had not done. So I rented a place for the first year, but by before
new Year I decided that yeah, I'm gonna stay here. So I had a custom house
building Tempe on concorde a drive, which was a place where you can get
rather large lots and build custom homes. And then I lived there for the
next 25 years until 1981 when I retired. And at that time since my wife
and I are really travelers and have been travelers all over the world. I
decided I wanted something with a little more of security, a little more
ease of walking away from not worrying. So I moved into a condo in
Scottsdale and have been there ever since.
It sounds like you like gardening and plants. So that must be. Well, I
also am a farmer out at the community garden at Scottsdale Community
College where I am currently growing some very nice crops. So you don't
have to have it in your own backyard and I can't have it in my own
backyard at the condo.
That's great. Does that go back to your roots of
my father loved gardening and so actually we boys got involved
sometimes unwillingly but nevertheless we got involved.
I'd love to talk with you more about the desert botanical garden sometimes
too. That's one of my loves, I forgot to mention to you that I we were
between the executive directors 2.5 years ago. And so I was interim
executive director there for four months and I now our executive director
is going to be going on a two month sabbatical next year. So he's already
relying me up to take over for that two month period. So I have a lot of
fun and keep very busy busy enough. Very good. Alright. I think unless you
have anything else you wanted to.