ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma
Kykotsmovi, AZ
8 September 2018
******************
Interview conducted by:
Dr. Paul Hirt, Arizona State University
and
Jennifer Sweeney, Four East Historical Research, LLC

Glen Canyon Dam Adaptive Management Program Administrative History Project
Administered by Arizona State University
Supported by a grant from the US Bureau of Reclamation

Suggested bibliographic citation:
Kuwanwisiwma, Leigh. ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW. Transcript of recorded Interview conducted
by Paul Hirt, Arizona State University, and Jennifer Sweeney, Four East Historical Research, LLC,
on 8 Sept 2018, at Kykotsmovi, Arizona. Edited by Paul Hirt and Jennifer Sweeney.

ii

Table of Contents
Table of Contents ……………………………………………………………………………… iii
Interview summary and annotations by minute ………………………………………….... iv-xvi
Interview transcript ………………………………………………………………………….. 1-29

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Subject
Date
Location
Interviewer
Annotator
Project
Bio

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma
9/8/18
Kykotsmovi Village, Arizona
Paul Hirt
Jennifer Sweeney
Glen Canyon Dam Adaptive Management Program Administrative History
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma was Director of the Hopi Cultural Preservation Office for thirty
years. He is a member of the Hopi Tribe. Kuwanwisiwma has been involved with
adaptive management in the Grand Canyon since around 1989. He was part of the
Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) process that resulted in implementation of the
Glen Canyon Dam Adaptive Management Program (GCDAMP), and at the time of this
interview continued to represent Hopi interests on the Adaptive Management Work
Group (AMWG).

Notes

Note 1: The planned indoor recording area was not available, and the subject
suggested that the interview be conducted outdoors. The interviewer set up the audio
equipment at a picnic area selected by the subject, about a quarter mile outside the
village center. While the area was generally quiet during the interview, sporadic
automobile traffic and occasional gusts of wind are audible on the recording. Note 2:
The annotator did not render the Hopi language used by the subject into writing,
except when it is in general use by non-Hopi (such as place names). Ellipses are used to
indicate when Hopi words or terms were omitted from direct quotes.

Minutes

Summaries of interview content during each minute of the interview
0 Introduction. Kuwanwisiwma is a member of the Hopi Tribe. He was director of the
Hopi Cultural Preservation Office for 30 years. He retired in December 2017. The Glen
Canyon Dam Adaptive Management Program (GCDAMP) and associated programs first
came to his attention about 1989, when the Environmental Impact Statement (EIS)
process started for Glen Canyon Dam operations.
1 Q: You were hired as the Hopi Cultural Preservation Officer in 1988? A: Yes. Q: And it
was 1989 when the federal government decided to start an EIS? A: Yes. Q: Who first
came to you and asked for Hopi participation in the process? A: "Well, to be frank,
nobody came to the Hopi, much less to any tribe that is currently engaged with the
whole history of the dam."
2 In early 1990 Kuwanwisiwma read in the Arizona [subject says Flagstaff] Daily Sun
about a meeting regarding Glen Canyon Dam in which the U.S. Bureau of Reclamation
(USBR) was involved. He attended out of curiosity about the dam, not realizing the
meeting would be focused on the Grand Canyon. "That was how I got a whiff of
something happening."

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3 Each participating agency introduced itself at the meeting, including the Bureau of
Indian Affairs (BIA) out of Phoenix. "I learned later that they were representing all
nineteen tribes in the state of Arizona." Kuwanwisiwma believes he was the only Native
person at the meeting. He thought it was important for the Hopi to be involved in the
EIS process and brought home literature for tribal members to review.
4 Kuwanwisiwma was convinced that the downstream effects of water releases were of
interest to the Hopi Tribe. He met with Tribal officials to discuss Hopi involvement in
the EIS process. The next meeting was in Salt Lake City, Utah [at the USBR regional
office].
5 Kuwanwisiwma expressed the Hopi Tribe's interest in being included in future
meetings. The next meeting was in Phoenix. The trips represented a significant
investment of time and money. The Hopi Tribal Council let Kuwanwisiwma know that
they were committed to active participation in what was to become GCDAMP.
Kuwanwisiwma introduced himself to other participants at the Phoenix meeting. There
were no representatives from other Native communities.
6 Kuwanwisiwma made clear that the Hopi would represent themselves, independent of
BIA representation. He realized there were many parties interested in the EIS process
aside from federal agencies.
7 Kuwanwisiwma was somewhat overwhelmed thinking about the future of the process
and the nature of the various entities' involvement with it. They all had some interest in
lands that touched the Colorado River.
8 Kuwanwisiwma realized that the EIS would require a lot of scientific research. The Hopi
needed to determine what their focus would be. "It was the whole gamut of all three
sciences, you know: biological, natural, and cultural." The Hopi emphasis would be on
the cultural science aspect, although they believe all three are interconnected.
9 Kuwanwisiwma is not a "professional archaeologist." He has a degree in business. Still,
he has been exposed to the cultural sciences through his work. "I grew up being Hopi,
but back then, as I look back, I was pretty young. Culturally, I was wet behind the ear.
You think you know everything when you're thirty-eight, but you don't. And over the
time of my career, I was taught good lessons, that I loved to learn."
10 Growing up Hopi, Kuwanwisiwma learned stories about how highly respected the
Grand Canyon is in his culture. Through the stories, he could "understand different
parts of what importance or sacredness means." His grandfather, who was probably
born around 1880, was part of "the last group of young men who got initiated into
these highly ritual societies in 1902, from Oraibi, village of Third Mesa, here."

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11 In the autumn of the year following initiation, the young men made a salt pilgrimage.
Kuwanwisiwma and others listened to their stories of how long it took to travel on foot,
with pack animals, to the place on the Little Colorado River from which they would
descend into the Grand Canyon. "Going down into the gorge, how precarious that is,
and that part of the initiations was to really test the manhood of everyone, both their
physical, emotional and spiritual manhood."
12 Making it back to the village from the area of salt deposits near the confluence of the
Colorado and Little Colorado rivers concluded the initiation. He heard these stories as a
teen, but Kuwanwisiwma did not understand their significance until later in life. The
place of emergence of the Hopi is in the Grand Canyon.
13 It is both a symbolic and a physical place, "where the Hopi clans emerged into the
present world. We were greeted here by a spiritual person . . . and he accepted us."
The newly emerged Hopis had an immediate physical knowledge of the Grand Canyon.
Hopi villages were settled around 1040 CE.
14 "We believe that when a person passes on, your spirit rises after the fourth day, and
travels to the Grand Canyon. That's our spiritual home down there. Then from there,
you turn into a spirit that we call . . . , and they're the people that continue to visit us,
ancestral people, in the form of clouds. You know, this is who we petition to come visit
us and bring us rain. So, our genesis and our spiritual home is how the Hopis view
Grand Canyon. So, I thought and thought, and said, 'We have to be involved.'"
15 It was important that Hopi interests in Grand Canyon be documented in the EIS. This
was the first research project with which Kuwanwisiwma engaged in association with
GCDAMP. Lack of money was an impediment to Hopi participation. A lot of money was
being allocated to scientific research, and Kuwanwisiwma stated at one meeting that
the Hopi should get some money as well.
16 The EIS process had not anticipated that tribes would be interested in participating.
Kuwanwisiwma said he would submit a research plan and a budget, and he expected it
to be funded. It took a year to devise the plan and to solidify participation from the
Hopi Tribal Council.
17 By around 1990/1991, a cultural advisory team of Hopi elders had been assembled.
Kuwanwisiwma brought on archaeologists Kurt Dongoske and, for a brief time, David
Carmichael.
18 The advisory board gave Kuwanwisiwma and the archaeologists "a lot of cultural advice
and caution." Kuwanwisiwma asked Dongoske to accompany him to the next EIS
meeting. They became acquainted with Dave Wegner, who was present when
Kuwanwisiwma demanded funding for Hopi research participation.
19 Kuwanwisiwma talked directly with Wegner about funding. Wegner apologized on
behalf of USBR for not seeking out tribal participation. Wegner came to the Hopi
reservation and was introduced to the cultural advisory team, which received him
warmly.

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20 Kuwanwisiwma had initially budgeted for one year's participation and research. He was
surprised that the process stretched out over seven years.
21 The Hopi Tribal Council issued a resolution declaring that the Tribe would have the
status of a cooperating agency in the EIS process. Kuwanwisiwma was given a
designated seat at the next EIS meeting. He was named the Hopi Tribe's voting member
by the Chairman of the Tribal Council. "I became the first tribal voting member--and
this needs to be highlighted--we became the first cooperating agency...."
22 The original Hopi research design captured how the Hopi look at biological, natural and
cultural sciences as integrated with each other. Kuwanwisiwma says that, in writing the
research design, he and Kurt Dongoske were writing the intial concept of adaptive
management in the Grand Canyon.
23 In early 1990, Kuwanwisiwma went on a Colorado River trip with Dave Wegner and
some other members of the Hopi Tribe.
24 The first formal river trip to do science in accordance with the Hopi research plan, with
Jan Balsom of the NPS, was in 1991. Kuwanwisiwma says of the trip, "It was an eyeopener for me." The Hopi are advised not to go to the Grand Canyon very often, "out of
respect for the spiritual people, that's their domain."
25 "You can go to the rim, and you're all shaken. It's so huge, you know, and every time
you go there it still impacts you. And no wonder our grandfathers talk about how Hopis
have to be so respectful for the Canyon. It's alive. It talks to you. Everything down
there, the ecosystem, it's alive, and it talks to you." Kuwanwisiwma likes to reminisce
about the times he has looked over the Grand Canyon's rim.
26 "It is different looking down, when you see the little river, and then being down there,
and seeing how massive the Canyon is." It is easy for Kuwanwisiwma to understand the
respect his elders felt for it. Being in the Grand Canyon teaches humility.
27 Q: On that trip, did you bring some of the Hopi elders who were on the cultural
advisory committee? A: No. The two other Hopi who went with Kuwanwisiwma were
older than him, in their sixties. The trip utilized smaller boats and was "pretty arduous."
28 The focus of the river trip was investigation of archaeological sites. From Lees Ferry to
Phantom Ranch are more than 300 cultural resource sites, "a lot of it clearly ancestral
Hopi" based on the ceramics identified.
29 The Grand Canyon was a location for trade among Native communities. The parallels
between Hopi traditional knowledge and archaeological evidence reinforce the Tribe's
interest in the Grand Canyon. The river trip enabled the team to examine
archaeological sites in the study corridor, which the EIS process defined as extending
up the canyon walls to the high water level.

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30 The study corridor definition prevented the Hopi team from considering many of the
known sites along the route, although they were examined on later research trips.
Balsom was still relatively new to the Grand Canyon at the time, and was open to
learning Hopi viewpoints on their ancestral sites.
31 The Hopi crew was interested in collecting culturally important plants, such as willow
sticks and certain kinds of pollen, during the river trips.
32 The team "harvested armfuls" of a particular kind of wild spinach from the canyon walls
on one of the trips, and cooked it for supper. Such activities underlined the Hopi
connection to the Grand Canyon. The Hopi researchers learned about invasive species.
33 Tamarisk and camelthorn are particular problems. Eradication of invasive species brings
up complex issues. On one trip, Kuwanwisiwma noticed that a large tamarisk grove
harbored a number of finches. "So one guy said, 'Look! How can we destroy their
habitat? They're alive and well up here!'"
34 On the very first river trip in which only three Hopi participated, Kuwanwisiwma
noticed how the river level fluctuated overnight: the water was high when they
camped, and the boat was stuck on the beach when they woke in the morning.
35 Q: And that's because of the dam operations, releasing less water? A: That's what we
learned. Water releases affect the ecosystem, and before the EIS process they were
unregulated. When more electricity is needed, more water is released through the dam
turbines.
36 The large fluctuations surprised Kuwanwisiwma. He and Dongoske thought regulation
of water flows was badly needed. The river trip helped clarify the Hopi vision of how
the Tribe could contribute to the EIS process.
37 Wegner funded Hopi research efforts after the initial one-year plan had expired, and
the Tribe contracted with archaeologist T.J. Ferguson. With his help, the Hopi produced
a Grand Canyon ethnohistory report. [Lomaomvaya, Micah, T.J. Ferguson and Michael
Yeatts. Öngtuvqava sakwtala : Hopi Ethnobotany in the Grand Canyon. Kykotsmovi, AZ:
Hopi Cultural Preservation Office, 2001.] The Record of Decision (ROD) issued after the
EIS process was completed narrowed the allowable range of fluctuations in the river
level. Of all of the Native communities represented in GCDAMP, Kuwanwisiwma
believes the Hopi have created the broadest and most robust body of research.

38 The Hopi have monitored sediments and have documented conflicts between species
such as tamarisk and willow.
39 Each year, a contingent of around ten Hopi go into the Grand Canyon on a river trip.
Kuwanwisiwma makes an effort to include younger people. There is consistency from
year to year regarding participants' personal views of the Canyon before and after
making the trip. The trips engender appreciation of the cultural resources in Grand
Canyon and the Hopi-supported research being done there.

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40 The consistency of thought regarding Grand Canyon is an "indication that the Hopi
culture is unwavering. Our villages are a thousand years old. The Hopi still have a full
twelve-month ceremonial cycle. And today we're going into the woman's ceremonies
right now. So it never ends for us."
41 Kuwanwisiwma thinks Hopi participation in GCDAMP has been worth the time and
effort. Since 1998 the Tribe has engaged in monitoring trips. This adds to the body of
Hopi scientific work in Grand Canyon. Q: Each year there is a river trip? A: Every year.
Q: I think Mike Yeatts told me he just got off the river. A: Yeah, that was our Hopi trip.
Q: Do you miss going down the river? A: Yes, out of thirty years' involvement with
GCDAMP and related programs, Kuwanwisiwma has made about eleven river trips.
Hopi culture advises him not to visit the Canyon too much, but as leader of Hopi
engagement in Grand Canyon adaptive management research, others saw his
participation as important.
42 Eventually other Native representatives joined the Hopi as GCDAMP stakeholders. Q:
Do you remember who the second one was? A: I think it was the Zuni, then the Navajo,
Hualapai and Paiute. This caused Kuwanwisiwma some concern. "Our Hopi trips are
very, very, I think, culturally respectful." He did not want alcohol brought along on the
river trips.
43 The Hopi reputation among other Grand Canyon researchers grew because of their
knowledge of cultural resource sites, and the Hopi values and emotions attached to
them. "Everybody wanted to be on the Hopi trips." Kuwanwisiwma says that boatmen
who guided the Hopi outings were positively influenced and vowed not to bring alcohol
on their trips.
44 Kuwanwisiwma thinks that other Native communities involved in GCDAMP do not take
the river trips as seriously as the Hopi do. He sees Hopi practices on their river trips as
reflections of the respect they have for the Grand Canyon. The Hopi bring ceremonial
pipes and tobacco on their trips.
45 At the end of the day's boating, the Hopi sit in a circle and pass the pipe. "We give
thanks for a nice day and a good day, thanks for everything. There's many times where
the Hopi are right next to a commercial camp, and these guys are drinking, and
laughing, we're here and the Hopis are trying to meditate." [laughs] "It's like that
throughout the river." Kuwanwisiwma values his river trip experiences.
46 He is glad to have been able to facilitate more Hopi experiencing the Grand Canyon in
person. Q: You mentioned Dave Wegner being very supportive and helpful. Can you
talk about how, as leadership of GCDAMP evolved over time, your personal relationship
with others on the Adaptive Management Work Group (AMWG) and the Hopi Tribe's
larger relationship with the adaptive management program changed over time?

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47 A: Initially, before the ROD was issued, the people who came together were members
of cooperating agencies. Kuwanwisiwma watched the list of adaptive management
stakeholders grow larger. He alternated with, initially, Kurt Dongoske, and later with
Mike Yeatts, as a voting member representing the Hopi.
48 The process for the cooperating agency group "was pretty routine." Each stakeholder
had a particular interest. There was an emphasis on biological resources, especially the
humpback chub. The humpback chub issue "is given a lot more money than the tribes
together. That's how disproportionate the budgets were. And I learned that fast,
especially when it got into this whole process of fighting for money. Your university was
getting millions of dollars to pump out PhDs, and when you look at the pie chart, we're
buried into recreation, a little slice. It's still like that."
49 Contending over budgets was constant after AMWG was formed. The program had to
justify the money it was spending. The participating tribes were able to form a voting
bloc with the Department of Interior (DOI) agencies.
50 The solicitor [probably the Solicitor of the Department of the Interior] intervened to
end the voting agreement between the tribes and the agencies. Q: That was under
Anne Castle [Assistant Secretary of the Interior for Water and Science]? A: Yes. Q: And
the DOI agencies stopped voting. A: Right. "That's when they stopped and they took
those votes away from us. So now, we were again in a minority." Q: Did the tribes often
vote as a bloc, do you all talk to each other and coordinate?
51 A: Yes, for the last ten years a tribal caucus is held the day before AMWG meetings. The
participants review the agenda packets and determine if any of the action items are
important to the tribes. During AMWG meetings, other tribal representatives often
turned to Kuwanwisiwma to ask what he thought.
52 The meeting procedures were complicated, and Kuwanwisiwma often acted as a leader
for the group in discussions. He mentions colleagues Charley Bulletts of the Paiute
[Southern Paiute Consortium/Kaibab Band of Paiute] and Tim [Timothy C.] Begay of the
Navajo Nation [Navajo Cultural Specialist]. The Zuni appoint different council members
to AMWG every two years.
53 Al [Alan] Downer [archaeologist, former Director of the Navajo Nation Historic
Preservation Department] occasionally represented the Navajo at AMWG meetings.
54 Richard Begay is the current Director of the Navajo Nation Historic Preservation
Department. Q: Who did you work with from Zuni Pueblo? A: Octavius Seowtewa [Zuni
Cultural Resource Advisory Team]. Q: Who did you work with from the Hualapai? A:
Loretta Jackson [Loretta Jackson-Kelly, formerly of the Hualapai Cultural Center].

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55 Q: We have heard from other people interviewed that the Havasupai have not been
involved. A: Kuwanwisiwma visited the Havasupai, trying to encourage them to
participate in the adaptive management program. He thinks it is unfortunate that they
do not wish to be involved, considering the community's proximity to the Grand
Canyon. Q: Can I ask you why you thought it would be important to get as many tribes
represented as possible?
56 A: "I learned quickly that once, in particular, the AMWG got organized, was seated, it
was plain and simple politics. Budget, debate on water releases and their timing. The
Hopi Tribe had its own hydrologist, who could help with technical matters. The caucus
of tribal representatives could decide what positions it was going to take within the
larger group."
57 One big issue was electrofishing [extermination] of trout in parts of the Colorado River.
"That was a big controversy. Initially, to Hopi. Because we were the only ones who
commented on that proposal. The main problem was that "the area where they were
gonna zap those trout, by the thousands, was right at the confluence, you know." [The
culturally significant confluence of the Colorado and Little Colorado rivers] "While it's
our finality, as I told you, it was also the beginning of our spiritual life. I, one day, hope
to become a cloud person, to visit all of you people. That's how we believe, it was the
beginning of life for us."
58 Exterminating fish in the Grand Canyon would mean taking life away from the Canyon.
When the Hopi pray, it is for the perpetuation of life. Kuwanwisiwma understands that
the purpose of the program was to benefit humpback chub and alleviate trout
overpopulation. But the electrofishing program would create an "aura of death" in the
Canyon.
59 The trout control program ended up being conducted at a different area. Q: About
when did this tribal caucus begin to form? Was it after the ROD? A: Yes, after AMWG
was established. There was no "united front" before that--any meeting was informal.
60 Q: Is that still functioning today? Is there still a caucus day before the regular AMWG
meeting? A: Yes. Q: And if you had more tribal representatives, you would have a more
powerful caucus? A: Yes. Q: You mentioned funding problems a couple of times. Was
there ever any thought that more tribal participants would mean less money for each
of the tribes, or was there a set amount of money that everybody got regardless? A:
There was a set amount of money given to each tribe. The Hopi Tribe got additional
funding for some specific research proposals.
61 The additional money came from the terrestrial funding program. Hopi research had
been documenting a variety of plants and animals in Grand Canyon because everything
there has value to the Tribe. One Hopi elder saw a rattlesname and made a "very
interesting comment."

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62 When the weather gets colder in the fall, rattlesnakes hibernate in underground dens.
The elder was concerned that the snakes would suffocate if the water in the river
reached high levels. Other people involved in GCDAMP had not thought of that.
Rattlesnakes are Hopi relatives. The Hopis still have the Snake Dance, an ancient
ceremony. The snakes that participate in the ceremony are returned to the ground and
become messengers. Kuwanwisiwma himself had not considered the welfare of the
snakes until the elder expressed his concerns.
63

"Like I said, it's just an amazing ecosystem, you wouldn't imagine until you go down
there, and there's creeks coming in from the top somewhere, from different aquifers,
some wide, some small, but they're coming into the Canyon. You know, and you go up
in some of those creeks, it is just rich in vegetation. Just--ahh, man, all kinds of plants,
it's an oasis. And you would never guess that that was in the Canyon. Right?"

64 The Hopi developed a handbook of the biological and cultural resources located in the
Grand Canyon. People who take river trips with the Hopi must read the handbook
before departure. The handbook is also used by students in area schools. Q: Can you
talk about how you think the tribal caucus related to the rest of the AMWG
stakeholders? Was it cooperative, tense, did it change over time?
65 A: The tribal participants did not have to argue for many controversial positions.
Kuwanwisiwma regards other AMWG participants as highly professional and very
courteous to each other, "and the tribes showed that respect in return, too. So I don't
think it was contentious." The tribal representative voting bloc impressed other AMWG
members with the fact that tribal participation "was there to stay."
66 The Hopi do a presentation every year on why the Tribe chose to participate in
GCDAMP and what the Grand Canyon means to the community.
67 Tribal representatives were included in the agenda and not afraid to ask questions.
Kuwanwisiwma considers some fellow AMWG members his friends. Some of the nongovernment organizations, such as the river guides and environmental organizations,
became allies of the tribes.
68 Q: There was some resistance, very early in the program, from hydropower interests
like USBR and Western Area Power Administration (WAPA) to making changes to dam
operations. Did you experience any of that in the years you were involved? Were there
caucuses of water user and hydropower interests? A: Yes. "The power interests were
usually on one end of the table. The tribes would be here, [gestures] and the NGOs
would be here, like that."

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69 "They were very strong in their opinions. All of the state representatives were
attorneys. Their specialty was argument. "That's sort of the chasm that, I think, existed
in some ways between the power interests [and the rest of AMWG]. It was really
obvious." The way in which they expressed their "strong views" was nonetheless
respectful. Q: So you feel the structure of the AMWG was set up in such a way that
even though there were caucuses and some inequities in power dynamics, it was still
fair, everyone got a chance to speak, everyone listened?
70 A: Moderator Mary Orton gets much of the credit for respectful communication within
AMWG. "I have the highest respect for her. When they somehow didn't renew her
contract, I was the only one that objected to it, and they've now got her back."
71 Orton also deserves credit for procedures that reduce frustration and conflict. "The
technical help she has, in terms of motions, and they would flash it on the screen, get it
edited right there and debated--wow, she had a big brain to remember all of the
discussions." She would remember details of what different people had said and go
back to them for clarification. Q: She told us, when we interviewed her, about a very
important river trip, in which a key group of stakeholders hammered out a new way of
working together. Were you on that river trip?
72 A: Yes. Kuwanwisiwma thinks that Kurt Dongoske was on the trip as well. It was right
after the ROD, and the federal parties were putting together river trips for GCDAMP
stakeholders. The Hopi proposed to integrate biological, natural and cultural sciences in
their research. Kuwanwisiwma talked with Dave Wegner about the future of Glen
Canyon Dam after the ROD. Science would be ongoing, guiding stakeholder decisions
and dam operations.
73 Wegner, Dongoske and Kuwanwisiwma formalized that adaptive management concept
for use in AMWG. Q: That was in the early 1990s? A: Yes.
74 Q: Looking long-term at the program, your long decades of experience with it, do you
think that it's been largely successful? A: The level of effort put in is "highly
commendable." There was support from within the community, direction from the
Hopi religious community, for involvement with AMWG. There were people in USBR
who were good to work with. Q: Do you remember names of any of those people from
USBR?
75 A: Some are no longer there. Q: Do you remember Dave Garrett? A: Dave Garrett was
one of them. He was invited to the tribal representative caucuses. Sometimes the
Secretary of the Interior's (SOI) designee [usually the Assistant Secretary for Water and
Science] was invited as well. Kuwanwisiwma thinks the SOI's designee appreciated
getting information directly from the tribes.

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76 During its discussion, a member of the caucus would be designated to speak on a
specific issue at the regular AMWG meeting. Kuwanwisiwma lobbied to have more
money dedicated to the natural science research component. Kuwanwisiwma's goal
was to bring geology students from Northern Arizona University (NAU) and fund their
participation in Hopi-sponsored research. The effort was not successful.
77 The Hopi Cultural Preservation Office has a memorandum of understanding with NAU
to facilitate such exchanges. Kuwanwisiwma would still like to see such a program
implemented. He sees it as a way to provide internships and other support for
undergraduate, masters and doctoral students. Q: Other than struggles with adequate
funding to support research and participation, are there any other disappointments, or
what you consider to be limitations or flaws, in the program?
78 A: "Well, it's adaptive management, [laughs] so I suppose you're going to have
changes." Resources will always be a problem. Power interests will continue to be part
of every discussion, as they are a major stakeholder. From the cooperating agencies
phase [pre-ROD], "a lot of us floated into the AMWG."
79 The process amongst cooperating agencies was semi-formal. While the EIS process was
being conducted, interested parties were coming forward to participate. People who
worked together during this phase, "even people from WAPA," got to know each
other quite well.
80 "That in itself was a key moderator in how AMWG later shaped itself, to continue to
conduct business in that way. That, I think, was a good transition." Q: It sounds like you
think the program has substantial value and ought to be continued? A: [Kuwanwisiwma
pauses.] "I think so." For example, experimental water releases [High Flow Experiments
(HFEs)] are intermittent. The river downstream of the dam is sediment-starved. The
releases are meant to help.
81 AMWG is part of the decision to continue these. Kuwanwisiwma thinks it will take a
long period of management "before the whole ecosystem at least has some evidence
of recovery." The Hopi will always have an interest in this, so the program has to
continue.
82 Q: So the long-term perspective and the learning and relationship-building, you're
saying, is really valuable? A: Yes. Kuwanwisiwma has tried to do that as Director of the
Hopi Cultural Preservation Office. "Rather than be an adversary, I encourage
partnership. And that's been my philosophy as a Hopi person." Q: You have kind of
stepped down from the central role that you played for so many decades, and others
are stepping in. What advice do you have for people who will be coming on to the
AMWG in the coming years?
83 A: Kuwanwisiwma is still a voting member of AMWG. His term has not yet ended. A
person on his staff, with a background in anthropology, will succeed him.

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84 Kuwanwisiwma is mentoring his replacement and orienting him to the AMWG process.
One important thing for Hopi is to review the agenda packet prepared in advance of
each AMWG meeting and identify items that are relevant to the Hopi. Mike Yeatts, who
has worked with the Hopi for a number of years, will retire soon as well. Kurt Dongoske
worked with Kuwanwisiwma for quite a while and is now working with the Zuni.

85 Kuwanwisiwma wants Hopi participation to continue for a long time. Q: What are your
hopes for the future? There is almost thirty years of history with this program, things
related to water flows, history, cultural resources have been addressed. What issues
aren't being addressed, or what new issues do you think are going to come up that
AMWG will have to face?
86 [Kuwanwisiwma pauses] A: He is curious about how water releases will be handled,
considering the low water levels in Lake Powell.
87 Kuwanwisiwma wonders if a supplemental EIS will be needed if water levels continue
to drop. As a Hopi farmer, he sees the evidence of the twenty-year drought we are now
in. This is an issue that needs to be addressed and prepared for. Control of trout
populations will continue to be a problem. Kuwanwisiwma is not sure how the issue
will be addressed.
88 The most pressing thing is Lake Powell's water level. Q: When you started with
GCDAMP, in the 1990s, it was only about ten years after the huge flood of 1983, and
the reservoir was still full in 2000. But now Lake Mead is a third full, and Lake Powell is
half full. Do you think about what kinds of adaptations might be facing us in the next
ten or twenty years?
89 A: Kuwanwisiwma is not a scientist, but he sees the low water level in Lake Powell, the
height of the dam, where the generators are located, and worries about how the
power interests will deal with dam operations.
90 Power interests may fight efforts to reduce the range of water release fluctuations.
Kuwanwisiwma just returned from a meeting in Page, AZ, where he was surprised to
see parts of the dam that are usually covered by water. "Maybe if it goes lower we'll
see our archaeological sites again--2,000 plus that were inundated." [laughs]
Occasionally, remains from eroded sites are found on beaches and must be reburied.
91 A long-term effect of low water levels, Kuwanwisiwma believes, is that Central Arizona
Project (CAP) will be more directly involved so that it can meet the demands of water
users, including the tribes that have a legal right to certain amounts of CAP water.
92 Q: Is there anybody else that you haven't mentioned who you think we should
interview, who played an important role or would have an unusual perspective?
93

A: Former Grand Canyon National Park (GCNP) Superintendents Dave [Uberuaga], Rob
Arnsberger.

94 The Superintendents supported the tribes and often attended the pre-meeting
caucuses. The USBR did not: "we never invited them."

xv

95 (Continued from above)
96 In the ROD is an appendix with chapters devoted to each of the tribes involved in the
EIS process. It contains the tribes' original recommendations.
97 Funding for GCDAMP is in question under the current presidential administration.
Kuwanwisiwma expresses his disappointment at this. The program has been of great
value.
98 END OF INTERVIEW

xvi

Paul Hirt:

00:00:01

This is Paul Hirt and Jennifer Sweeney of Arizona State
University speaking with Lee Kuwanwisiwma of the Hopi Tribe
up in Kykotsmovi on Saturday, September 8, 2018. Leigh, thanks
so much for speaking with us.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:00:18

Well, thanks for inviting me on this discussion. I appreciate it.

Paul Hirt:

Great. Can you start by telling us your name, the positions that
you've held with the adaptive management program, and the
years that you've been involved?

00:00:22

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:00:33

I was the former director for the Hopi Tribe's Cultural
Preservation Office, um, for thirty years and I retired last year in
December of, oh, '17. So, in my capacity, um, I got actually right
in the front when the new EIS [Environmental Impact
Statement] was happening back in the late 1980s. I got hired in
1988 and so my involvement [sound of vehicle passing] with this
whole initiative on the effects of the fluctuating dam releases,
it's been thirty years.

Paul Hirt:

Wow. Yeah. So you were hired as the Hopi Cultural Preservation
Officer in 1988?

00:01:23

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:01:27

Yeah.

Paul Hirt:

And it was 1989 when the federal government decided to start
an Environmental Impact Statement?

00:01:27

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:01:32

Right. Yeah.

Paul Hirt:

Okay. All right. And what role, like, who first came to you and
said, "We would like some Hopi participation in this EIS, and
how did that evolve over time?”

00:01:33

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:01:48

Well, to be frank, nobody came to the Hopi, much less to any
tribe that is currently engaged with the whole history of the
dam. And um, [road noise] I just happened to, I believe back
around early 1990, read in the Flagstaff Daily Sun, that there
was a meeting on the Glen Canyon Dam, by the Bureau of
Reclamation, and I was reading the newspaper and I just out of
curiosity, I didn't know--I didn't know really what it was about
except that, you know, it, it, I pictured the dam up there. But I
never realized that it wasn't dealing with the whole Canyon. But
that was how I got [a] whiff of something happening. So I went
to that meeting, it was an evening meeting, and I sat there
listening to it and there was a whole series of presentations on,

1

on jump starting the EIS. And, um, as the initial introductions
came around, all the federal agencies of course introduced
themselves and the Bureau of Indian Affairs was introduced
from Phoenix.
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:03:23

I learned later that they were representing all nineteen tribes in
the state of Arizona. And I sat there and, and actually at that
meeting I was probably the only Native person there, you know,
and I was kind of bewil-- bewildered, and that's when I began to
say, uh, we've got to learn more about this, what's going on,
this EIS. And so I got some, a lot of handouts then, some
background information. And I took home a whole bunch of
that and, um, began to read it. And it was indeed about the
Grand, uh, Glen Canyon Dam. But what was it interesting to me
was that the whole issue was again, the water releases and the
effects on the ecosystem. And then I said, this has to be of
interest to the Tribe, I mean it is an interest to the Tribe. So, I
got around to, um, just studying it more, and then meeting
with, um, our tribal officials over there, and I said, "Look, this is
something that I think we've got to pay attention to." And that's
where, you know, I personally got involved with it. And so on
the next meeting, which was up in Salt Lake, of course--

Paul Hirt:

The regional office of the Bureau of Reclamation [road noise].

00:05:04

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:05:05

Yeah, and of course, that's time and money to us. And so I
ended up doing some calls up there and pretty much still
articulating [road noise] at least my personal interest as the
director [of the Cultural Preservation Office] on behalf of the
Tribe to follow it and to keep us abreast of it with information,
that kind of stuff, that's about the only thing I did [road noise].
And then the next meeting, again, was in Phoenix, so I went to
that one. And by that time, I had reasonable assurance that the
Tribe, meaning the Tribal Council, wanted to actively
participate. So, I finally had the floor given to me and I
introduced myself. And at that time, I was still the only tribal
representative and I said, "The Hopi Tribe will engage in this
whole EIS, but independent of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and
their representation of other tribes, we're, I believe, quite
capable of representing ourselves." That's what I said. So that
was put on record. All right, so that was sort of my foot in the
door, so to speak [road noise]. And so that was, that began our
start in trying to figure out, well, how are we going to
participate, you know? And by that time, I think by the third or
fourth meeting I was in [road noise], then I began to know that
there were, beyond the federal agencies there were now a lot
of other interested parties to this whole initiative, and that
suddenly just blossomed in front of me. And, and so that was

2

something that I was a bit overwhelmed with, as to what that
really, um, looked into the future, how was all of this thing
going to work out and, um, how is that agency involved, how is
that state involved, you know. It all centered around, quite
simply, around contiguous lands to the Colorado River, all up to
Wyoming. You know, that’s, that’s what I learned [road noise].
They were interested parties in the dam, even though they
were upstream.
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:07:57

Well, and then so I went back and I, in the nineties I, I was trying
to figure out what we were going to do, and then I finally said,
well, looks like this EIS is going to require a lot of science, a lot
of research, and by golly, I've got to determine what our, what
our focus was going to be. And it was the whole gamut of all
three sciences, you know, biological, natural, and cultural. And
of course, our forte, even though I was just beginning the office
at that time, was going to be culture, even though I kind of was
already thinking they're all interconnected, you know, for Hopi.
They're not specific unto themselves. We have values going all
over those three sciences. I knew that as a Hopi, in here [points
to his heart], but we have to develop a baseline for the other
two sciences. So that's why, what was kind on my mind and, I'm
not a professional archaeologist, you know. My degree is in uh,
is in business. You know, but I've been, uh, in different
capacities with the Tribe, I've been exposed to different kinds
of, of components of our culture. And I grew up being Hopi but,
back then, as I look back, I was pretty young. Culturally, I was
wet behind the ear. You think you know everything when you're
thirty-eight, but you don't. And over the time of my career I was
taught good lessons that I loved to learn. But in here I was Hopi.
And growing up, you learned about, stories about the Grand
Canyon. This is a very highly respected place as you begin to
understand different (pause) different parts of what importance
or sacredness means, you know.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:10:33

My grandfather, who I suspect was born in about 1880, they
were among the last, they were the last group of young men
who got initiated into these highly ritual societies in 1902 from
Oraibi Village of Third Mesa here. And they're required after
that initiations, the following year in the fall, they did those salt
pilgrimages [P.H.: uh-huh], and that's what they did. And we
listened to those stories and all he could tell us was that it took
a long time to travel on foot, with mule, donkeys and some
horses all the way up to the descent place on the little Colorado
[River], and then going down into the gorge and how precarious
that is. And, that part of the initiations was to really test the
manhood of everyone. Their, both their physical, emotional,
and spiritual manhood. And that's what these men and young

3

men undertook [road noise]. And this was the stories that we
heard where they finally got salt from those Hopi salt mines and
then traveled back to the village. That concluded their full
initiation.
Paul Hirt:

00:12:19

That was the salt deposits in the canyon wall [L.K.: Yeah], down
near the confluence of the Colorado River and Little Colorado?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:12:23

(Talking simultaneously) Yeah, right there. Yeah, right there.

Paul Hirt:

And your grandfather took those pilgrimages.

00:12:26

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:12:29

Yeah. So you kind of learn a little bit about it, but as a
youngster, as a teenager, you don't really, really, um (pause)
really sense the importance of these stories until later, you
know. So the Canyon is, is, uh, is so significant to the Hopi
people. You know, our genesis, we say, comes from the Grand
Canyon. We emerged from a place called Sipapuni. It's of course
a symbolic place, but it's a shrine down there [road noise],
where the Hopi clans emerged into the present world. We were
greeted here by a spiritual person we call Maasaw, and he
accepted us. He accepted us. So out of this encounter and
emergence, we immediately already had a physical knowledge
of the Grand Canyon. So today, after the Hopi villages were
settled around 1040 or so, then the Hopi culture of course, fully
evolved, evolved into what it is today. And part of what our
belief system is, is that we believe that when a person passes
on, your spirit rises after the fourth day and travels to the Grand
Canyon. That's our spiritual home down there. Then from there
you turn into a spirit that we call the Cloud People, and they're
the people that continue to visit us, our ancestral people, in the
form of clouds. You know, this is who we petition to come visit
us and bring us rain. So, the genesis and then our spiritual home
is how the Hopis view the Grand Canyon. So I thought and
thought, I said we have to be involved, and I said we are going
to have to look at our own culture and we're going to have to, in
this EIS, if we're going to make any kind of impact, we're going
to have to document our interests into there. So that was the
first, actually, research project that I engaged in.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:15:34

Money was the, was the part that I didn't know how, we didn't
have. But after a series of meetings they were now engaging in,
in, in, uh, contractors to conduct different sciences within the
scope of the EIS. And I said at one of the meetings, "I want that
money too, you know, I want that money too."

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:16:11

And they didn't plan for that. They didn't plan that the tribes
were going to be interested parties into the EIS. So they

4

basically didn't have any allocations for “a tribal component of
the whole research.” And I said, “Well, you’ve got to find it, and
I'm going to give you a research design, and I'm going to give
you our budget. And you're going to give me that money.” So
that took about a year for me to kind of really absorb things.
And then also internally I had to do my internal, what do you
call it? Uh, education-Paul Hirt:

00:16:58

Relationship building with the Tribal Council, you mean?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:17:00

With the Tribal Council. And then by that time, probably by
1990, '91, I had a kind of like a cultural advisory team of elders
and they were my advisors on a lot of things. But this was a
good project for me to bring to them. And--

Paul Hirt:

Do you remember about what year that was?

00:17:20

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:17:22

Ninety-one. [P.H.: ‘91] Yeah. Because that's when I hired [Kurt]
Dongoske, too. I hired Dongoske. I had hired another
archaeologist, David Carmichael, who is currently teaching up at
UTEP [University of Texas at El Paso]. I think he was in the initial
stages of this EIS with me. He was an archaeologist too, but he
didn't stay for too long. Then I hired Kurt. So we teamed up
together and we, we, um, we worked with our advisory team
and they were really, really good, very honorable gentlemen
that worked with us. They were religious priests and some of
them were religious leaders, you know. So they gave us a lot of
cultural advice and, and, and caution. So with that then, I told
Kurt, "Well, you go to the next meeting with me," which we did.
And that's how both of us began to get immersed into the
process. And um, I think around that time they hired Dave
Wegner. Dave Wegner. And he had been, um, he was helping all
of, some of the contracts that were being dished out and he
was in an office over in Flagstaff. So we got acquainted with
him. So he, I guess he was in the audience when I told them that
I want that money too. So we met with him and that was still
the question: we want our share of the pot and we're prepared
to give you a research proposal with our budget.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:19:19

And so he advised us that he had to do his internal, um--he was,
he was, he was very receptive. He was very receptive and he
generally apologized to us on behalf of the whole effort, the
Bureau of Reclamation, that the tribes were just forgotten on
this whole, whole process. And he, but he was good. He
immediately said, "Oh, I'm going to see that you get the
money." So within two, three weeks he said, "All right, we've
got to meet." So he came out to Hopi and he got introduced to
our advisory team which gave him a really nice warm reception,

5

and then we talked nuts and bolts [road noise]. And so then
Kurt handed him our research design, which had the review of
the advisory team, gave it to him and gave him our initial
project, our initial budget. And initially I was under the
impression that it was just going to be, like, a year. I've never
been engaged in an EIS. [P.H. laughs]. And so I was inclined to
say we'd give them a one year budget, get as much money as
we can, you know [road noise]. But as it turned out, It was, it
was going to linger on, you know, like seven years.
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:20:57

All right, so, so we hammered out a contract and then I went
before the Tribal Council, and with the Tribal Council, oh, by
nineteen, early '91, 1991, when we were starting meeting with
Wegner, I went before the Tribal Council and got a resolution
declaring that we were going to be a cooperating agency. We
would have that status. So, I remember at the next meeting I
introduced that resolution, gave it to them, and they gave me a
seat. And the chairman wrote to them that I would be the Hopi
tribe's voting member. So, I became the first tribal voting
member, and this needs to be highlighted: we became the first
cooperating agency. See, Hopi. And I became the first voting
member on the cooperating agency. So that was taken care of
in that manner. And then we got our budget and we took a look
at all three sciences. How are we going to look at each one of
them? So our initial research design did capture that, that again,
they're, they're integrated. See, that's how our initial proposal
went into. And (pause) and that became part of this later
history of how the Hopi Tribe, actually me and Kurt writing,
really, the concept of adaptive management of the Glen Canyon
Dam. Hopi wrote that, the initial concept. All right, and I'll tell
you why. So out of that then, in '91 I believe, prior to the
awarding of our contract and our status, I went on a river trip,
me and two other staff. We went on a river trip and it was an
eye-opener—[loud traffic noise in background]. Sorry about
that. It was an eye-opener for me. You know--

Paul Hirt:

That would have been like 1990 that you went on a river trip?

00:23:43

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:23:45

I think, yeah, I think early '90 I was on that river trip just
because they offered it to us.

Paul Hirt:

Was this other members of the EIS team were taking one of
their (speaking simultaneously) research trips--?

00:23:54

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:23:56

No, it was just a Hopi trip [P.H.: Just a Hopi trip] with Dave
Wegner. And then '91 thereabouts we had our first formal [road
noise] science trip with Jan Balsom, I think that's was the date-so we were the first tribe and people to actually engage in this

6

investigation. And um [road noise], and that first trip was an
eye-opener for me. And so, you know, you're (pause for traffic
noise) They actually advise not to go to the Grand Canyon that
much, the Hopis, because of our respect for the spiritual people.
That's their domain. So, so Hopis have that in themselves, that
we shouldn't be visiting, and visiting, and visiting it. We don't do
that. And I still don't do that, you know. Just occasionally when I
have to, but--so that was an eye-opener for me because you can
go to the rim and you're awe-stricken. It is so huge, you know?
And every time you go there, it still impacts you. And no wonder
our grandfathers talk about how Hopis have to be so respectful
for the Canyon. It's alive. It talks to you.
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:25:41

Everything down there, the ecosystem, is alive and it talks to
you. And I looked over, I go back, and, and, go back and
reminisce about times I looked over the rim. When you finally
get out of Marble Canyon, get out of Marble Canyon, out of this
one bend [road noise], the Canyon just--Ahhh! Opens up, you
say it swallows you. It is different looking down, when you see
the little river, and then being down there, and seeing how
massive the Canyon is. That was a teacher. And that's why I said
no wonder our grandparents talk about this trip down there,
about how significant the Canyon is and what it does to you. If
there's any experience that gave, gave my grandpa humility and
me humility, it was that trip into the Canyon.

Paul Hirt:

On that trip, did you bring some of your Hopi elders who were
on the [L.K.: Couple of them] advisory committee?

00:27:01

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:27:08

No, I didn't do it, yeah, well, two staff were older people. There
were three of us that went. Yeah. And they were in their sixties
by that time and I was like thirty-eight or thirty-nine [road
noise]. So it was an eye-opener in that way and we went
through and, of course at that time we're still doing the little
boats. That was a heck of an experience, you know [road noise],
to eventually survive all of the rapids downstream. I don't know
if you guys have ever been down there. But it's, it's a pretty
arduous trip, you know, and it's just an amazing ecosystem
[loud traffic noise]. So by '91, I believe around that time, we got
our funding and we got our first river trip down there. And at
that time I began to know Jan Balsom, too, I think she was just
getting started as well, too, about the same time. I think maybe-I think she started with the Grand Canyon in about '88, too,
that thereabouts. So, um [road noise] she went with us,
because one of our, uh, our efforts was to investigate as many
archaeological sites down there. All right, so that was our first
attention down there. And from Lees Ferry all the way to
Phantom Ranch, there's three hundred-plus archaeological sites

7

all the way from there. A lot of it clearly ancestral Hopi because
of the Hopi polychrome and yellow were down there, and it
matches our traditions in there because the Hopis, they say
they traded with other clans down the Grand Canyon from here,
you know. And, and they say that Wupatki people from
Flagstaff, they traded with the Grand Canyon people, you know,
things like that are our traditions. So when you go down there
and begin to learn about the archaeology, archaeologists will
tell us, well there's evidence of, of Hopi yellow ware here. Could
it be trade items? Could it be actually visitations by people?
Probably both, you know.
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:29:40

So that reinforced our interest down the Canyon. So, we went
through that Canyon first and we began to take a look at
arch[eology] sites that were in what they call the study corridor,
which was the high water level, you know. And that prevented
us from doing much with other sites adjacent, on, on, within the
canyons. We--

Paul Hirt:

Higher above the river--(unintelligible, both talking at once)

00:30:15

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:30:16

Yeah, higher, yeah. And, and things like that that kind of were
restricting us. Although we, later we did visit a lot of those sites
in the Canyon. But initially that was our attention span. And so
talking with Jan, who was still also then learning about the
whole impact and archaeology down there [wind noise], I think
we began to help her understand our viewpoints on what we
call our, our ancestral sites. See. So, so that's how we started
with those visits down there. And so, and then as we took that
first trip with our, with our crew and some elders, there was
one, I think, seventy-eight-year-old guy that went with on that
first trip, first research trip. Actually, two of them.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:31:22

Now-- [road noise] as we went through, we were interested in
collecting some of the plants, because they were culturally
important to us, you know?. So, we were inquiring, let's take a
little bit here because that's what we make, we use these
willow to make our prayer sticks, things like that were popping
up, you know? And there were other types of pollen, pollen out
there I think that was during the spring trip [road noise]. They
began to gather that as well.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:32:06

And one of the sites, the hikes that we went into, Buck Canyon I
think, one guy said, he was telling us, he said, "Hey, you guys
come here." So we went back there and he said, "There's wild
spinach all over here," he said. And we looked up, "Yeah, uhhuh!" Ahh, there were nice spinach, we call wiwa.

8

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:32:32

So coming back then we harvested armfuls of that, and we had
that for supper, you know? So clearly our interest in (pause) the
biological research was there, you know? And it grew. It grew
over the seven years we were doing the river trips like that. See.
So, for example, we learned about the invasive species of which,
of course, is um, tamarisk. We learned about other invasive
species of the Little Colorado River--because we went up to
Sipapuni--thorn, uh, camelthorn, you know.

Paul Hirt:

Terrible plant.

00:33:16

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:33:18

And all of that we learned. But, so, some of the questions is how
do you feel about eradication of tamarisk down there? Well, on
one of the trips we went, I think we were going, uh, somewhere
we stopped and there was a whole tamarisk, kind of like this
here, that's tamarisk over there, kind of really thick. And you
know what? There were a lot of finches through there. And
someone, one guy said, "Look, how can we destroy their
habitat? They're alive and well up here." So this dichotomy of
trying to mitigate invasive species [road noise] now went this
way, and the tribe even saw value in the tamarisk thickets. See?
This is what we were doing down there. So, and then, and then
(laughs) I remember on our first first [sic] trip, where only three
of us went, I remember camping that one night, first night [he
makes a “sheew” sound]. Next morning, the river was way
down here! [The river level had dropped significantly.] And we
were camped up where our boat was stuck. And so, the
boatmen knew it, but at the time that we landed at camp it was
high water. So of course, they had to unload everything. So they
pitched the boat right there and, and then those boats are
really, really heavy, I mean those little boats, they're pushing,
tugging.

Paul Hirt:

Trying to get back to the water level. And that's because the,
the [L.K.: Yeah] dam operations, were releasing less water and
it's not that, you know, there was--(unintellible)

00:35:12

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:35:22

So now that's what we learned, you know, it's really the effects
on, on this whole ecosystem though, there were, were because
of especially the initial releases where it was basically
unregulated, you know, and how WAPA [Western Area Power
Administration] of course is just, goes with what the power
demand is, right? Vegas and elsewhere that they sell that
power. So, in the high-power demand periods then they go as
high as 100,000 cfs.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:36:01

And so we had to explain to our elders, what is cfs, you know-cubic feet per second. So kind of, this box here, it holds about

9

five gallons, you know, that kind of stuff. Then during low power
demand, it goes to as low as 3,000 cfs. This was this huge
fluctuation, so that captured my attention. No wonder! And it's
about time, it's about time they regulate that. Was my, me and
Kurt's opinion. So, we came in later with a clear vision of the
purpose of the EIS, and what the tribal contrib--[road noise]
contributions (pause) were going to look like from Hopi.
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:37:01

So, we hired a contractor, and Dave Wegner was kind enough to
give us money after a year, and we hired our contractor by the
name of T.J. Ferguson. You're probably familiar with the name
or have met him.

Paul Hirt:

Yeah, saw his report.

00:37:17

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:37:19

And we eventually filed the Grand Canyon ethnohistory report,
a very extensive report.

Paul Hirt:

That was a great study.

00:37:27

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:37:29

Very gre—very, very significant stuff. And that took that many
years and a couple of years of writing it to fi--finally come up
with the report. So of course, out of that, um, the Record of
Decision came about, so it narrowed the fluctuation [road
noise]. So today, the Hopi, I believe if you take a look at the
Bureau of Reclamation's tribal reports, I believe we have the
most extensive science--scientific reports based on our research
design and then, later, how we identified certain research areas
as we traveled, from the first time that we started going down
there. You know, so in one area we monitor sediments. In
another area we hired the, um--well the sediments throughout,
but on several occasions, what is clearly has a conflict between
tamarisk and willow. We monitored that. So of course all the
time we're taking photographs, and initially we were looking at
old photographs of those respective areas. And that's our
record up to now that we're doing, see. And at the same time,
annually we’d take about ten Hopis down the Grand Canyon,
and they give us either--uh, this past, uh, month, in September
we took, um, early September we took ten, and six of them
were new people and younger people. So, so we've tried to mix
them up. But every year we get new pers--we get perspectives,
and technically new perspectives, but really the perspectives
are consistent. The prior, before going into the Grand Canyon,
how they feel about it, that's pretty consistent. After they go
through the river trip and learning about what we do down
there, and the science we're doing, the cultural resources down
there [road noise] you know, coming out, a lot of the new
timers are, they have a better, better perspective on how those

10

are being affected by the dam operations. But they're pretty
consistent all throughout. And so I think that's, that’s an
indication that the Hopi culture is unwavering. It--you know, our
villages are a thousand years old. The Hopi still have a full,
twelve-month ceremonial cycle, you know. And today, we're
going into the women's ceremonies right now. So it never ends
for us. It never ends. We're always in the kiva. So, so I think it's,
it reflects the vibrancy of the Hopi culture. And we're fortunate
to be able to say that. So I think our--really, our um (pause) our
um (pause). When I think back, I think our participation was
worth our while. And today, since ninety--since '98,
thereabouts, we're engaged in what they call monitoring,
monitoring trips now. So those, we still are building up our
record through there.
Paul Hirt:

00:41:26

Each year there's a river trip, then?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:41:29

Every year.

Paul Hirt:

I think Mike Yeatts just told me he just got off the river.

00:41:29

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:41:33

Yeah. That was our Hopi trip. Yeah.

Paul Hirt:

Do you miss going down the river?

00:41:36

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:41:38

Yeah. I missed going. I've gone down there about, maybe, out of
thirty years, about, uh, eleven times. Because I, maybe even
less, because I just had that respect for the Canyon. But I'm the
leader too, you know, and Mike [Yeatts] always, kind of always
desires that I should be on the trip, but you know, here, I said I-shouldn't be doing that many times. But. So yeah. So later,
other tribes joined us. Other tribes joined us.

Paul Hirt:

Do you remember who the next, the second one was?

00:42:15

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:42:18

I think it was the Zunis.

Paul Hirt:

The Zunis then got on?

00:42:21

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:42:21

Yeah. And then the Navajos came in, the Hualapais and Paiutes
came in and, and uh, I don't know. I said we have a, I [traffic
noise]-- the thing that I guess personally concerns me, you
know, because our Hopi trips are very, very, I think, culturally
respectful. From day one, I said no alcohol on our trip. No
alcohol, period. And when our first trip with Jan, I remember
our boatman took alcohol, you know, and, and, uh, we advised
him that our trips are non-alcoholic. So over time our reputation

11

grew. That we knew so much about the history of the Grand
Canyon culturally, the archaeological sites, the petroglyphs
we're interpreting left and right down there. Our values in
terms of the erosion of, the effects of erosion on burials, what
that causes us, to have to now re-bury only a partial of a
remain, right [road noise]. Those were emotional. So the
boatmen of course were learning, and the Hopi trip just grew,
and everybody wanted to be on the Hopi trips. And every one of
those trips, the boatmen later vowed that they would not be
taking alcohol on it. So since then our trips have been nonalcohol. And I think the Tribe's reputation on the river is there,
you know. Whereas through today, and I still complain to the
other tribes, the Zunis still take alcohol. Navajos is a big fishing
trip for them. Paiutes take alcohol. Hualapais take alcohol. I told
them one time, "You guys just need to stop. You guys keep
telling everybody that you have respect for the Canyon. At least
stop that." I mean that's just kind of my personal thing, but
that's ‘cause, you know, how much I think we value the Canyon.
Kind of ironic too, because of course all the commercial trips
take that, and there's a lot of occasions, um, [road noise]
because we take our ceremonial pipes, and our native tobacco.
So at the end of the day, at the end of the day, after we pitch
camp, then the Hopis gather in a circle and we pass the pipe.
Give thanks for a nice day and a good day. You know, thank for
everything. There's, there’s many times where the Hopi camp,
it's right next to a commercial camp, where the Hopis are
meditating and these guys are drinking and laughing over here
and the Hopis are trying to meditate (laughs). It's like that
throughout the river. And, um-Paul Hirt:

00:45:45

Quite a contrast?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:45:46

Yeah. And so, it's (pause) yeah it’s been a good experience for
me [road noise] to engage in the river trips. And then later, now
these monitoring trips that we have now, and to be able to be a
part of getting new people to go down there. And to, so that
they can also begin to get another view of the Grand Canyon,
which I, like I did. And um--

Paul Hirt:

You mentioned Dave Wegner being very supportive [L.K.: Yeah]
and helpful. I wonder if you can talk just a little bit about, um,
how as leadership of the adaptive management program
evolved over time, how, um, your personal relationship with
other members of the AMWG [Adaptive Management Work
Group] and the Hopi Tribe's larger relationship with the whole
adaptive management program, how that changed over time.
Were there phases where things were really cooperative, and
then other phases when not so much? How did it evolve?

00:46:32

12

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:47:08

Well, after, you know, initially it was (coughs)-- was the, um,
members as cooperating agencies. You know, that was the first
cohort of people coming together, throughout the, until the
Record of Decision came about. So, um, they were already now
developing a list of stakeholders. It grew. And so I went through
that and Mike became the, uh, my alternate as a voting
member, Mike Yeatts. Well, Kurt, initially, and then more
recently, uh, Mike. And um, I think the adaptive, I mean, the
cooperating agency group, I think, was, um, pretty, uh, I think,
routine. Everyone, every one of those stakeholders had a
different kind of interest in it, you know [road noise]. And, and-there was a lot of emphasis on biological resources, particularly
the humpback chub (laughs) [more road noise]. So, um--the
humpback chub budget even until today takes more, is given a
lot of more money than the tribes together. That's how dis-disproportionate the budgets were. And I learned that fast,
especially once it got into this whole process of fighting for
money. Your university was getting millions of dollars to pump
out PhDs. And when you look at the pie chart we're buried into
recreation. Little slice. It's still like that.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:49:20

And then when in, uh, and then when-- so we were fighting for
budgets through, once it got into the monitoring and the
Adaptive Management Work Group, that's where, you know,
again, budgets came around all the time. And people were still
justif--justifying their money. And that became a challenge to all
the tribes. But we were able to form a bloc of votes between
the four or five tribes, and then the [Department of the] Interior
agencies. That's how it was set up. So if the tribes made a
motion on their, on their whatever they wanted to put before
the whole group, when it came to a vote, then those Interior
people would vote for the tribes [road noise]. That's how the
politics were working out. Until, um, until the, uh-- until the
Solicitor [of the Department of the Interior] said that they
couldn't do that anymore. So we lost about four or five agencies
for blocking for blocking votes (both talking at same time)--

Paul Hirt:

That was under Anne Castle?

00:50:31

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:50:34

Anne Castle.

Paul Hirt:

When the interior agencies stopped voting.

00:50:35

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:50:38

Right. Yeah. That's when they stopped and it took those votes
away from us. So now we're again in the minority [P.H.: uhhuh]. See, still through today. And, um, so, yeah, so--

13

Paul Hirt:

00:50:56

Did the tribes often vote as a bloc? Do they—do you all talk to
each other and coordinate (speaking simultaneously) your
positions?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:51:03

No, we’re [unintelligible]. Over the last ten years prior to the
AMWG meetings, we have a, a day before, we have a tribal
caucus. So we have, of course, by that time we have the full
packets, so we have an idea of what's going to be in store for us
and what some of the action items, if any, are going to be
important to us and what the tribal discussion is going to be.
And I tell you--this is not being, um, sort of (pause)-- I don't
know how you would put it. When it came to something like
some kind of turn of events where a discussion started and we
start, the whole group started talking, almost all the tribes
would look at me and said, "Leigh, what do you think?" You
know, I was going through that and the action item and the
motions and amendments to the motions, all of the thing that
goes on. And then the subject at hand. What do you think,
Leigh? And I'm trying to scratch my head and then I give it my
best shot.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:52:24

So in that way I was sort of still kind of leading the group in
discussions too. And I'm glad for my colleagues. You know,
Charley Bulletts from Paiute, Tim Begay from Navajo. There
were several councilmen from Zuni. They get appointed every
two years, I think, to AMWG. Al [Alan] Downer from Navajo
initially, too, as well.

Paul Hirt:

Which, what was the name of the first Navajo you mentioned?

00:53:00

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:53:04

Tim Begay.

Paul Hirt:

Tim Begay.

00:53:04

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:53:05

Tim Begay. [Road noise.] He was usually the one that was
usually present. Al Downer came in occasionally. He was their
director.

Paul Hirt:

How do you spell his name?

00:53:16

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:53:19

Alan Downer. D-o-w-n-e-r.

Paul Hirt:

And he was also a Navajo rep.

00:53:24

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:53:26

Yeah, he was the tribal historic preservation officer. And Tim
Begay was their cultural specialist.

14

Paul Hirt:

00:53:35

And Char--you said Charley Bulletts? [L.K.: Yeah.] How do you
spell his last name?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:53:38

B-u-l-l-e-t-s [Correct spelling is Bulletts.]

Paul Hirt:

E-T-S. [L.K.: Yeah.] And he represented one, or the whole
collection of, Paiute?

00:53:41

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:53:48

He, no, he represented the consortium of Paiutes. And then,
um--

Paul Hirt:

These were early participants?

00:53:59

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:54:00

Yeah, these were-- well, these, were some of the people that I
work with early on. Tim is still engaged. Tim Begay. Now they
have a new director called Richard Begay, so, they're pretty nice
guys.

Paul Hirt:

Who did you work with, with the Zuni?

00:54:17

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:54:19

It was Octavius Seowtewa. Octavius S-e-o-t-e-o-t-e-w-a, I think.
[Correct spelling is Seowtewa.] Seowtewa.

Paul Hirt:

Seowtewa. Zuni. [L.K.: Yeah.] And uh, who did you work with
with the Hualapai Tribe?

00:54:37

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:54:47

With Loretta Jackson [road noise].

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:54:50

She was a very strong advocate, too. She was articulate.

Paul Hirt:

She's on our list to do soon.

00:54:54

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:54:55

Yeah, she was a very strong advocate of our collective
involvement.

Paul Hirt:

It's strange. We hear from, uh, we've heard from other people
too, besides you, that the Havasupai tribe was not often
represented--

00:55:06

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:55:15

I went down, actually, and because they weren't willing to
participate and I and one of the chairmen went down there and
I presented, uh, at least some guidance to them, trying to
encourage them that they should be participating, but they
never did. They never did. Which is unfortunate thing because,
of course, their canyon goes right into the Canyon. The Canyon.
[Road noise.]

15

Paul Hirt:

00:55:50

Why, um, can I ask you why you thought it would be important
to get as many tribes represented as possible?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:56:01

Well, like I said, I learned quickly that once in particular the
AMWG got organized and it was seated, um, it was plain and
simple politics, for a number of reasons, you know. One I
mentioned, of course, is budget. And then of course, some of
the debate on when different, for example, water releases for
example, and the timing of those releases [road noise]. I think at
our caucuses, fortunately the Hopi Tribe had a hydrologist too,
we had our own hydrologist, so he was helping us from the
technical side. So, we were able to, to kind of roundtable some
of these issues and then go in to see what we can do. And then
the big one was the, uh, the electrocution of those, uh-- [P.H.:
fish?] the trout. That was a big controversy initially to Hopi,
because we were the only ones that commented on that
proposal. So our record stands that one, the initial area that
they were going to zap those trout by the thousands was right
at the confluence, you know?

Paul Hirt:

A sacred site.

00:57:39

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:57:40

A very sacred site to us. You know. And it encompasses this kind
of concept of the spiritual domain. So, well, it's our finality, as I
told you, it was also the beginning of our spiritual life. I one day
hope to become a Cloud Person to visit all of you people. That's
how we believe. So it's the beginning of life for us. So, our [road
noise]-- I said to Kurt, you know how I would best explain it? Is
that they kill all these fish. They're taking life away from living
creatures. And Hopi, when they do their prayer feathers and
prayer offerings, it's for the perpetuation of life. It's not for the
end of life. Nah. So even though that proposal had a purpose,
because the effect on the humpback chub, and overpopulation,
you know, it just didn't sit well with me (road noise and wind
noise). If they dare do that, it's going to create this aura of
death. That was our argument. And we got the Bureau of
Reclamation in. So they moved, they moved that area to
someplace further up, up the river. See, these are some of the
things that we were, we were engaging into.

Paul Hirt:

Yeah. Yeah. Did you, um, about when did this tribal caucus
begin to form? Was it after the Record of Decision [L.K.: Yeah],
or did it start forming before that?

00:59:20

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 00:59:32

No, I think the actual caucus itself began to form after AMWG
was established [road noise]. Prior to that with the research
part of it, we were pretty independent. And we would, as
cooperating agencies, meet, but we didn't have really a, as I

16

understood, really have a quote, “a united front,” so to speak.
We would talk during lunch and stuff like that, but it was right
after AMWG that we, we dedicated ourselves having this caucus
prior to the AMWG meetings [road noise].
Paul Hirt:

01:00:09

And is that still functioning today? Is there still a caucus day
before the regular AMWG meetings?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:00:16

Yes. Yeah. [Road noise.]

Paul Hirt:

And if you had more a tribal representatives, you would have a
more powerful caucus, you were thinking?

01:00:18

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:00:25

Yeah, uh-huh.

Paul Hirt:

But you didn't--was there any problem with, you know, you
mentioned funding problems a couple of times. Many other
people that we talked to, this is a really--you can't get anything
done if you don't have financing [L.K.: Yeah] to get it done, um,
and there's a limited pie. Was there ever any thought that more
tribal participants would mean less money for each of the tribes
[road noise], or was there a set amount of money that
everybody got regardless?

01:00:26

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:00:50

It was a set of money that was eventually given to each tribe,
respective tribes. Um--although the Hopi tribe got funded for
some specific proposals.

Paul Hirt:

Some research proposals?

01:01:09

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:01:11

Research proposals. I don't know if other tribes did, but we got
additional money. It was coming out of something called the
terrestrial funding program. And--

Paul Hirt:

For biological research?

01:01:25

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:01:26

For biological research, ‘cause we were beginning to document
everything down there, not just the plants. But because
everything that we have around here has some cultural value,
the water life, and of course the fish, the frogs, the snakes, the
birds, even the wildlife up there. One elder said that, when we
saw a rattlesnake around there, he made a very interesting
comment. You know, during the fall, towards the winter, when
it gets cold, they hibernate. They're going to go into their den
somewhere. Isn't the water going to suffocate them when they
go up? [Road noise.] You know? No one really thought about
that.

17

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:02:20

And that's right, because we still have the snake dance today.
It's an ancient, ancient ceremony that was just performed three
weeks ago again. So the value on our reptilian relatives, we call
them, because once we go through that snake ceremony,
they’re presented back to the ground after they're captured
[road noise] and they became, become our messengers, our
prayers. So there's a value, and this elder said, doesn't that
happen? To the snakes? When the water goes up and floods?
And that was something I never thought of. So we engaged in
that, we talked about the bird life up there, um, and then the,
like I said, it's just an amazing ecosystem. You wouldn't imagine
until you go down there and there's creeks coming in from the
top, somewhere from, from different aquifers. Just some wide,
some small, but they're coming into the Canyon. You know?
And if you go up in some of those creeks (clears throat), it is just
rich in vegetation, just, ahh man, you know, all kind of plants,
it's an oasis. And you will never guess that that was in the
Canyon, right? [Road noise.] So yeah, so we began to get, um,
information and research into all kinds of biological resources.
You know. So yeah. So, we got money to do that part too. So
today we have a handbook that we got developed of all of the
biological, and particularly the biological and the cultural
resources, in a handbook like that. And that's given to all of our
river participants to read prior to going down there to look at
what all that's been documented, you know, and doing that. So
that was a product of it and that product is now also available
into the school system.

Paul Hirt:

So you use these as educational (speaking simultaneously)--

01:04:48

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:04:50

[Unintelligible] Students are learning from that handbook too.
Yeah.

Paul Hirt:

01:04:56

Can you talk a little bit about how you think the caucus [road
noise], the tribal caucus related to the rest of the members and
stakeholders of the AMWG, and how, what that relationship
was like? Was it real cooperative? Was it tense? (L.K. coughs)
Did it change over time?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:05:19

I don't think there were that many really controversial issues
that [unintelligible] the tribe had to argue for the merits of their
position. I think, I think, um, as best as I know and remember, I
think all of the AMWG membership, were highly professional,
very, very professional and very courteous to each other [road
noise]. And the Tribe showed that respect in return too. So I
don't think it was contentious. They just knew that we now had
a voting bloc, and I think there was, um, slowly some
recognition that our participation was there to stay. So I think

18

they had to accept that. So I think, when we did our
presentations, and Hopi did their presentations too, you know,
for example (L.K. clears throat), we did PowerPoints initially,
and still do, about why we chose to participate, what the values
of the Canyon is to the Hopis is and how the dam operations
affected that [road noise]. We outline that every year and
remind the people that that's the Hopi reason why we're here.
We do that too. So, me and Mike were doing PowerPoint
presentations. And then other tribes came in, too, and they
would be agreeing to have slots within the agenda. So they
would provide us those, opportunity to do that too. Then of
course, during the discussions we would, if we had any kind of
comments or questions, we would ask those questions too. So, I
think the dialogue was basically good [road noise]. I think, I, I
got to know a lot of people. You know, some became my
friends, you know. And certainly, you know, the nongovernment organizations, the river guides, for example, they
became allies with the tribes. The Sierra-- I don't know if the
Sierra Club was in there, but other organizations-Paul Hirt:

01:07:45

Grand Canyon Trust, maybe? (Speaking simultaneously)

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:07:47

Grand Canyon Trust. They, they, you know they were-- certain
times they voted for the tribes too. So things like that. But it
wasn't really "political" political, but they knew our presence
was there. Yeah.

Paul Hirt:

That's good. I know that there was some resistance early on,
very early in the program. We keep hearing from interviewees
that the, uh, the water and hydropower interests, like the
Bureau of Reclamation and WAPA [road noise], really resisted
making significant adjustments to the management of the dam
to accommodate biological and cultural issues. Did you
experience any of that in the years that you were involved?

01:08:01

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:08:33

Oh, yeah.

Paul Hirt:

Were there caucuses of the, say, the hydropower and water
interests (unintelligible, both talking at once)?

01:08:34

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:08:40

Oh, yeah. Once you got to know all the agencies represented, I
mean, you know, that you had respective caucuses. The power
interests were usually on one end of the table (laughter) and
the tribes would be here, and the NGOs would be here, like
that. You know? And the feds would be one--yeah. And
sometimes, yeah, they were very, very strong in their opinions.
And I told the chairman, you know, every one of the state
representations on AMWG are attorneys, lawyers (P.H. laughs).

19

That's who we battle with, you know, I'm not an attorney, but
they are. And they argue that, they argue that. And so that's
sort of the chasm that I think existed in some ways between the
power interests, you know. I--it was really, really obvious. But I
think overall, I think the way they, um, I think discuss matters in
representing their strong views was still respectful.
Paul Hirt:

01:09:53

Uh-huh [road noise]. [L.K.: Yeah.] So you feel the structure of
the AMWG was set up in such a way that even though there
were some caucuses and there were some inequities and power
dynamics, that it was still a structured process that was fair and
everybody got a chance to speak and everybody listened, you
know—(speaking simultaneously) respectfully to each other?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:10:19

I think, uh-- Gosh, I forgot her name, but they hired, um--

Paul Hirt:

Mary Orton?

01:10:27

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:10:29

Mary Orton. (Wind noise.) And she was good. I tell you, I have
the highest respect for her. And when I, when they somehow
didn't renew her contract, I was the only one that objected to it,
and they now got her back. She was good.

Paul Hirt:

01:10:50

Yeah, we interviewed her, she had a (speaking simultaneously)--

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:10:52

Yeah, I was the only one from the AMWG that objected to her
contract [not being renewed]. But, you know, but she's back.
But I think she was the one who kept AMWG on an even keel.
She was very, very highly proficient in her role, in moderating
the discussion, and the technical help she has in terms of
motions and they would flash it on the screen, get it edited right
there and debated and--wow. She had a big brain to remember
all of the discussions. "Remember you said this thing? Is that
what you meant?" [road noise] Yeah, Mary Orton was her name
and I-- I went back, back and forth after she wasn't working
anymore, and I told her I would try to get her back on, which we
did. [Road noise.]

Paul Hirt:

01:11:48

She told us when we interviewed her, she told us about a very
important river trip in which a key group of stakeholders went
and kind of hammered out a new way of thinking about and
working together. Were you on that river trip?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:12:05

That's what I'm saying. Me and Kurt were on that river trip, I
believe. But, see, that was right after the Record of Decisions
[road noise], when the feds were now also getting these river
trips together for the stakeholders. See. But early on when we

20

were writing our research proposal, the Hopi proposal was to
have an integrated approach [road noise], to put the three, the
three sciences and um, and um--so we were talking with Dave
Wegner about the future of the dam after the Record of
Decision already. So, between the three of us, we were
beginning to try to formulate how is this going to work, you
know. [Road noise.] Because we're now realizing the enormity
of stakeholders, right. And we would have, now, science to
guide us, right? And science would still be ongoing, so the whole
management had to adapt to those circumstances. Me, Kurt,
and Dave Wegner were the ones that formulated that. And
that's what we brought in to some of the first cooperating
agency meetings where that term and concept later became
formal.
Paul Hirt:

01:13:35

So that's again in the early 1990s.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:13:37

Yeah. Well, we began to talk about that early on, and then now
to implement it through AMWG [road noise], to establish the
AMWG, you know. (Coughs) Yeah, we talked about it a lot, and I
think Dave also needs to be credited in giving us a sense of that
concept too.

Paul Hirt:

01:14:01

So looking long-term at the program in your long decades of
experience with it, do you think that it's been largely successful,
and how so?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:14:18

(Pause.) Well, I (clears throat) I think, with the level of effort we
did, I think, um, I think it's highly commendable. I think the
support we have internally, the um-- the religious community
coming in to give us that direction. And individuals within the
Bureau of Reclamation that were very, uh, very good people to
work with, you know. And--

Paul Hirt:

Do you remember any specific people in the Bureau of
Reclamation that you felt were good to work with?

01:14:54

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:15:00

Um-- Let's see, some have gone already, too, back then. And
then--

Paul Hirt:

Do you remember Dave Garrett?

01:15:08

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:15:09

Dave Garrett was one of them too, yeah--

Paul Hirt:

We interviewed him and he expressed a lot of support and
concern for getting more robust tribal participation.

01:15:11

21

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:15:20

Yeah, he was one that supported us a lot and we actually would
invite him to our tribal caucuses, too. [P.H.: Oh.] And sometimes
we would ask the Secretary [of the Interior] to come in too, on
the tribal caucuses. So they would sit in and have lunch with us
and we would roundtable these things. So it was a matter of
courtesy to them.

Paul Hirt:

You mean the Secretary of the Interior's designee [L.K.: Yeah,
designee], like Anne Castle? (Speaking simultaneously.)

01:15:42

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:15:46

Yeah, Anne Castle would sit in with us and have lunch with us.
Yeah. So, so I think they appreciated that, because there was
now some discussions from the respective tribes that she would
hear direct, from one to one, too. And so then they would, after
the caucuses then, on these very specific issues, then they
would designate someone to articulate that during that
discussion. That that's how we worked--

Paul Hirt:

The regular AMWG meetings?

01:16:18

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:16:19

Yeah, at AMWG-- like that. And they were privy to that. So
Garrett was one of them. Yeah. So I think that those kinds of
support, I think, helped a lot. I advocated for, particularly for
more money to get into the natural science component of it.
But I wasn't successful in doing that. I wanted to get, um, some
of our younger people who were over at NAU [Northern Arizona
University] in geology, for example, to actually come in and get
funded or a program funded at NAU to support those students.
But I never was able to find justification to do that. We have an
MOU with NAU, the Hopi Cultural Preservation Office, and
that's meant to facilitate that. But, we just couldn't break loose
the money. And we still have some students in there. I mean,
it's still going on and I wish we could get money to get a strong
science, natural resource, natural science program over at NAU.
And that would be one of my recommendations, you know, is
that the tribes need support to offer scholarships and
internships, you know, to continue to support them through
their masters and even into their doctoral programs.

Paul Hirt:

01:17:59

[Road noise.] Other than some struggles with adequate funding
to support research and participation, are there any other, um,
disappointments, or what you consider to be limitations or
flaws in the program as it's developed over time?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:18:19

Well, it's adaptive management (laughs). So I suppose you're
going to have changes throughout the implementation of the
Record of Decision. And, um, I think resources are always going
to be a problem. I think the power interests are still going to

22

present their views on everything. They're a major stakeholder.
Um--but I think, I think the way it started, even from the
cooperating agency standpoint—because a lot of us floated into
the AMWG, a lot of us did—was that at that level of cooperating
agency, I think everything was formal but yet informal. All right.
It was different types of meeting that we would engage in as
cooperating agencies, because we were still heading towards
the Record of Decision, but you already had your complement
of people now coming forward to be part of the cooperating
agencies. So from that point on, I think the acquaintances that I
had early on with some of those same individuals, even people
from WAPA, we began to know each other, you know. Every
day, I mean every meeting, we would say, "Hey!" Some would
call each other by their name, do high fives. And so I think that
in itself was a key moderator in how AMWG later shaped itself
to continue to conduct business in that way. So I think, that, I
think, was a good transition and some of us holdovers
contributed to that, I think.
Paul Hirt:

01:20:28

So, it sounds like you think the program has substantial value
and ought to be continued?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:20:40

(Pause.) I think so. I think so. You know, with the experimental
water releases, for example, they're intermittent, right? (Wind
noise.) They're intermittent. The fact of the matter is, is that
there's still no sediment going downstream. That's, that’s a
reality [road noise]. So the water releases are intermittent.
That's meant to help, right? Um--

Paul Hirt:

These high flow releases?

01:21:04

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:21:05

High flow, high flow releases. Yeah. So that's going to be
ongoing [road noise] and that was part of AMWG's decision
eventually to do those. See. So that's happening now [road
noise]. So I think over time it's going to take a long time before
the whole ecosystem (pause) at least has some evidence of
recovery. It ain't going to happen, but some over time. You
know. And that has to be still part of Hopi's interest. So I think
from our part it has to continue. That monitoring has to
continue. And whether WAPA likes it or not, I think that has to
happen.

Paul Hirt:

Yeah. The long-term perspective, we--you can't learn a lot if
you're only looking at something for a few years or a decade
[road noise]. So that long-term perspective and that learning
and relationship building, you're saying, is really valuable and--

01:21:58

23

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:22:17

I think so, and I've always tried to do that in my capacity as a
director, you know. Rather than being adversarial, I encourage
partnership and that's been my philosophy as a Hopi person.
And that's how I tried to represent the office here.

Paul Hirt:

01:22:39

You have kind of stepped down from the really central role that
you played for so many decades, and others are stepping in. So
that's my next question is, what advice do you have for people
who will be coming onto the AMWG in the coming years? What,
what advice would you give them about how to approach the
task, how to think about their role, how to prepare to be
effective?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:23:07

Well, I'm still actually a voting member of AMWG. [P.H.: Good!]
Yeah, um-- my term hasn't ended, and the chairman hasn't
replaced me with anybody, so I'm technically still a member of
AMWG and, like I said, one of my staff is my successor and I
think he's academically--oh, what do you call it? Founded?

Paul Hirt:

Well-trained--

01:23:39

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:23:40

Yeah, he's got a Masters in Anthropology and has worked for
me for about twelve years as an anthropologist and as a
researcher. So, um, he’s been atten-- he attended the last one
over in Flagstaff, uh, with me and so I said that this is what
happens here. A bunch of boring stuff (laughter).

Paul Hirt:

So you're mentoring him.

01:24:07

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:24:09

Yeah. So-- so this is what happens and these are the issues, so
make sure that you, when you get the packet, make sure you
take a look at it 9road noise) and see what is relevant to either
Hopi or tribes, and continue to communicate with Mike Yeatts,
who by the way is also retiring. [P.H.: Yeah?] Yeah. End of this
year too. So he's been with me for, he's going on thirty years
this year, too. [P/H.: Wow.] Yeah. Kurt worked for me for about
a dozen or maybe fifteen years.

Paul Hirt:

And now he's working for the Zuni [L.K.: Zuni. Yeah.]. Yeah, we
interviewed him about a month ago.

01:24:45

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:24:50

Yeah. Yeah, he kept, he helped me get our archaeology program
off the ground, so we now have our full staff of archaeologists
and everything. Yeah, so, um, I think over time, I hope the Hopi
Tribe's participation doesn't, uh, wane, but continues to be as
strong as it has been. And I think Stewart [Koyiyumptewa] will

24

again, like he's doing, he's learning the ropes, will learn the
ropes on this whole program called AMWG [road noise].
Paul Hirt:

01:25:31

What are your hopes for the future? I mean we've had almost
thirty years of history with this program and things related to
water flows and fisheries and cultural resources have been
addressed. What issues aren't being addressed, or what new
issues do you think are going to come up that the AMWG will
have to face in the future? (Long pause before L.K. answers.)

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:26:08

Oh, let me see. So, um--so I think some of the new changing
facing AMWG is something that I was curious about. In terms
of--the range of releases [road noise] that's dictated by the
Record of Decision. Because the, Lake Powell is at 40 per--60
percent capacity right now. [P.H.: Yeah, it’s going down--] And
you see it physically, you see it, right? The white lines. It’s-[speaking simultaneously, unintelligible]

Paul Hirt:

The bathtub rings, right-- (speaking simultaneously)

01:26:58

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:26:00

It's a lot of water. So I think that needs to be taken note of [road
noise], how does that affect WAPA's water releases. You know,
and would that require a supplemental EIS at some point? If it
continue to goes down, right? See, and we've got to look at the
data and we're technically in a twenty-year drought and this is
huge, and I know as a Hopi farmer, I know it, you know, and so I
think that's a new issue that I think hopefully can be addressed
at some point too, or prepared for. I think the control of trout,
there's going to still be a population so it will be a problem. I
don't know how we address it because there's so many of them
in there from Lees Ferry on all the way down to the confluence.

Paul Hirt:

Because of the colder, clearer water, it's good habitat for them?

01:28:06

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:28:08

Yeah, and that's been a big, big change for them. And-- so that
was one thing I was thinking about, the Lake Powell, um--

Paul Hirt:

Yeah, that's what I had in mind. I mean we, uh, we’re looking at
a situation where it's possible that that lake could continue to
fall. It's, you know, it was when you started this program in the
1990s, that was only about ten years after that huge flood of
1983 [L.K.: Yeah], the reservoir was still full as of about the year
2000. But now, you know, Lake Mead is a third full [L.K.: Yeah]
and Lake Powell is half full [L.K.: Yeah] and there's no guarantee
that the new climate regime isn't, you know, going to change
and go back to what it was before [L.K.: Yeah]. There's a chance
that everything's going to be different. And this is an adaptive

01:28:28

25

management program. Do you think about what kinds of
adaptations might be facing us in the next ten or twenty years if
this is the new normal? This climate regime that we have now?
Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:29:25

Yeah, well [road noise], I think as a non-scientist, of course, I see
the low levels of Lake Powell and I look at the dam in itself, the
height it is, and where the generators are located, you know.
Because over time, I don't know what the projections was, but
eventually it will fill up with sediment anyway. But I'm just
worried as the water goes down, what are the power [interests]
going to deal with that in terms of the fluctuations? Because
they're currently allowed a certain range and they'll probably
put a big fight if we're going to do it [P.H.: Reduce the range
even more?] reduce it because of the low levels of Lake Powell.
I think that's the circumstances again that I'm speaking to right
now. That's because I, uh, we had a meeting up at Page the
other day and I went through it again, Lake Powell, the bridge
and over and, gaah, you know, the ramps are getting longer and
longer, the boat ramps (L.K. laughs), like that. And it's sad, you
know. (Wind noise.) Maybe if it goes low we'll see our
archaeological sites again (P.H. laughs), two thousand-plus that
were inundated [P.H.: buried, yeah] (L.K. laughs). Occasionally I
have to react to a remain that's eroded from somewhere and is
found on the beach somewhere, a bone determined to be
prehistoric, whatever, then we do reburials (laughs) on that?
And then, uh (pause)--

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:31:17

(Wind noise) I think because of water shortage, I think there's
going to be more impact like with CAP, like CAP--

Paul Hirt:

Central Arizona Project (speaking simultaneously)--

01:31:30

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:31:31

Central Arizona Project, because of the water shortage. Because
that's what they're drawing on to feed water into Phoenix and
other areas. They're going to probably want to up that, you
know, and the tribes adjacent are going to want to demand
their share. So I think that's a long-term effect of the ecosystem
down there, where more water will have to be drawn out to
address the drought right now. [Road noise.] I think that's one
thing that I've been thinking about too.

Paul Hirt:

Well, um, last question, is there anybody else that you think we
should be sure to interview? You've already mentioned a good
number of people like Charley Bulletts and Tim Begay and
Octavius Seowtewa, Loretta Jackson, Alan Downer.

01:32:09

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:32:29

Alan Downer's over in Hawaii, sipping margaritas (laughter).

26

Paul Hirt:

01:32:34

Maybe we can go join him and interview him there (laughs).
Anybody else that you thought played an important role or
would have an unusual perspective?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:32:44

Well, you interviewed Jan, for example. But um--

Paul Hirt:

And we interviewed Dave Wegner.

01:32:51

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:32:56

Let me see. the other two, if you're able to reach them because
they were instrumental in AMWG recently, are the former Park
Service superintendent.

Paul Hirt:

Steve Martin, or somebody before him? Or after him?

01:33:08

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:33:11

After him. Well, Steve Martin was involved too.

Paul Hirt:

Yeah, I think he might be back in the Flagstaff area. I'm thinking
about--

01:33:17

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:33:22

Steve? (Speaking simultaneously) Steve? They have a home
there.

Paul Hirt:

But it was the person who came after Steve Martin-- I forgot his
name too, sorry.

01:33:28

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:33:42

Yeah… Dave--dang. What was his last name? He had a kind of
funny last name.

Paul Hirt:

I thought Steve Martin was a funny name too.

01:33:48

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:33:50

I thought he was the comedian (laughter).

Paul Hirt:

Exactly. Yeah, I can look it up. Dave somebody (speaking
simultaneously).

01:33:51

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:33:55

And then, uh, and then, after Steve was another
superintendent, what was his name, Unger?

Paul Hirt:

Dave Unger?

01:34:07

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:34:08

Dave Unger? Yeah, Unger, I think. Or--

Paul Hirt:

01:34:13

I'll look it up. And you remember him as important because--

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:34:18

Well, they were instrumental when, um, see Steve was there
during the, the initial phases where we were in the '90s, and

27

then he left and then another superintendent took over and he
was there for a long time. Uh, Unsberger?
Paul Hirt:

01:34:45

Arsberger.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:34:46

Ars-- Arnsberger. (Speaking simultaneously)--

Paul Hirt:

Arnsberger. That's right.

01:34:47

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:34:48

Yeah. Dave.

Paul Hirt:

Arnsberger. And so he was there for quite a while [L.K.: Yeah]
and he would be a good person to talk to.

01:34:50

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:34:54

Yeah. They, they were on our tribal caucus when it came to
votes (laughs).

Paul Hirt:

You had a lot of support from the Department of Interior
agencies, it sounds like [L.K.: Yeah--], other than maybe Bureau
of Reclamation (laughs). Would, did they attend your caucuses,
BOR?

01:35:02

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:35:13

No, we never invited them (laughter).

Paul Hirt:

01:35:18

All right. Well I think we've covered everything. Is there any last
comments you'd like to make before we shut off the tape
recorder?

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:35:27

Well, let me see (long pause). Since you have our-- it looks like
you have our report, the one that we did, we took a look at it,
that [P.H.: Yes] of course 9road noise) lays out really the cultural
values of the Grand Canyon, so feel free to draw on that.

Paul Hirt:

Thank you. (Pause.)

01:35:51

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:35:52

Um-- (pause).

Paul Hirt:

Any other documents that you can think of [L.K.: Yeah, right--]
that were important?

01:36:00

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:36:05

Well, on the Record of Decision, um, there is a, there's this
appendices of all the tribal chapters [road noise]. So there's a
Hopi chapter, Paiute chapter, Navajo chapter, Zuni chapter.
They're all in there, as part of the EI-- uh the Record of Decision.
So I think that would be a good source for you to-- it pretty
much synthesizes what is in our big report, but it has all of our

28

initial recommendations. So that comes to my mind. (Pause.)
Just tell Bureau of Reclamation I want more money (laughter).
Paul Hirt:

01:36:57

Yes, you know, you're probably aware of this, just in the last
couple of months, the Trump administration has announced
that they're sweeping all the funds, that all the hydropower
revenue that had been funding this program is going to
Treasury, and there's a chance that the program may no longer
exist by 2019.

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:37:17

Yeah.

Paul Hirt:

That would be a shame.

01:37:18

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:37:19

Yeah, there was an alert last fall already on that. It's going to be
too bad if it does, you know, because there's just so much
energy, you know, (wind noise) put into this effort here. And it’s
uh-- in my opinion it's an effort worthwhile [road noise]. And I
think with what's at stake in terms of the Canyon being a very
special place for us, all of America, and I think a sense of
monitoring and caretaking and good management is really, it's
really needed it into the future. That's what I think.

Paul Hirt:

I think that's a great place to stop.

01:38:07

Leigh Kuwanwisiwma: 01:38:10

Yeah.

Paul Hirt:

Wonderful.

01:38:11

End of interview

29