WEBVTT 00:00:03.108 --> 00:00:05.108 in the in the equation. Then you have to be very careful not to become a 00:00:08.509 --> 00:00:14.956 utopian in this attempt to be ecologically fitting and the single house is 00:00:14.989 --> 00:00:19.285 becoming more and more utopian. 00:00:19.318 --> 00:00:23.425 Could you explain what you mean by utopia? You're using the dictionary 00:00:23.458 --> 00:00:28.666 definition of it. Well, the, uh I think that one of the solution is to be 00:00:28.699 --> 00:00:35.590 a known place. Yes, that's what I tend to use more of the most of the time. 00:00:36.859 --> 00:00:38.859 Well, it seemed that when we build a single house with its own little 00:00:42.329 --> 00:00:48.406 hospital ground, unconsciously, we we say that the Earth is maybe 20 times 00:00:48.439 --> 00:00:54.826 as big as it is. Well, this is not true. The Earth has its own size, and 00:00:54.859 --> 00:00:58.875 the demands that we are putting on the Earth are becoming greater and 00:00:58.908 --> 00:01:05.855 greater. So to say that I like the single house. So I'm going to define an 00:01:05.888 --> 00:01:13.837 environment which satisfies me. It's not sufficient. I have to say no 00:01:13.870 --> 00:01:21.647 combat. Everybody else wants what I want. Does this make sense? Then 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:26.426 immediately, I find out that this doesn't make sense. We cannot have the 00:01:26.459 --> 00:01:31.617 five or 6 million so billions of people, the three or four billions of 00:01:31.650 --> 00:01:39.650 families, dwellings, single dwellings. We need many hearts for that. 00:01:50.588 --> 00:01:56.025 But that means that the the the the most cogent reason why the single 00:01:56.058 --> 00:02:03.596 house might not be the answer. The reason is that the single house cannot 00:02:03.629 --> 00:02:09.535 is not conducive to that kind of of, uh, environment with that kind of 00:02:09.568 --> 00:02:15.547 pressure and that kind of tensions and that kind of of, uh, of intensity 00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:22.416 that will foster, uh, the metaphysical, 00:02:22.449 --> 00:02:28.995 the making of God 00:02:29.028 --> 00:02:36.755 following that that line of thought. There's the implication that, uh, 00:02:36.788 --> 00:02:44.788 proliferate proliferation of, uh, one family houses is a he, uh 00:02:46.710 --> 00:02:53.047 it's the work of the devil. I was gonna say, 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:58.386 Well, the devil is not is not something 00:02:58.419 --> 00:03:00.677 a monster. 00:03:00.710 --> 00:03:08.710 The devil is, uh it's a very quiet process. 00:03:09.469 --> 00:03:17.376 You speak with some authority, 00:03:17.409 --> 00:03:21.616 you think we maybe need some devils. 00:03:21.649 --> 00:03:27.816 We need to understand that there's a demonic element in life. This demonic 00:03:27.849 --> 00:03:34.245 element is, um, I think is there by necessity because we are dealing with 00:03:34.278 --> 00:03:39.566 , uh, with an inner mystery and an outer mystery. The inner mystery is 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:42.906 what is inside of us, and we don't know what it is exactly. If 00:03:42.939 --> 00:03:47.186 physiologically psychologically 00:03:47.219 --> 00:03:51.696 and so on. And the outer mystery is what, uh, what surrounds this inner 00:03:51.729 --> 00:03:57.436 mystery? So we cannot escape, 00:03:57.469 --> 00:04:01.036 uh, the indeterminate, 00:04:01.069 --> 00:04:06.106 then unexplainable. 00:04:06.139 --> 00:04:13.396 And, uh, the necessity of jumping, 00:04:13.429 --> 00:04:21.429 no leaping into into what, as yet is not proven or as yet is not uh uh, 00:04:21.819 --> 00:04:29.325 guaranteed. 00:04:29.358 --> 00:04:33.687 I mean, there's more to it. The this double mystery goes for evidently, 00:04:33.720 --> 00:04:40.067 for what I call AAA substantial element of anguish. 00:04:40.100 --> 00:04:44.906 And this is inescapable. We can. We can fool ourselves into this idea of 00:04:44.939 --> 00:04:50.546 the pursuit of happiness and into this idea that we can ensure ourselves 00:04:50.579 --> 00:04:58.579 physically enough with abundance of hardware and and holdings. We might 00:04:59.220 --> 00:05:02.555 get away from this language. We are not going to get away. We're going to 00:05:02.588 --> 00:05:06.947 get deeper and deeper in it because the resolution of this anguish it's 00:05:06.980 --> 00:05:13.205 not in physical terms. But it's in, um, 00:05:13.238 --> 00:05:19.116 in sacramental terms, what you want to call it. 00:05:19.149 --> 00:05:25.245 That's why religion is so important. But I think we should take a religion 00:05:25.278 --> 00:05:31.606 not by the detail, but by not not in in reverse, but in in What I see is 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:35.717 the in in the right sequence 00:05:35.750 --> 00:05:42.515 at the beginning is mass energy. At the end is God 00:05:42.548 --> 00:05:46.067 Is there any way one can? 00:05:46.100 --> 00:05:51.067 I guess I'm speaking as an architect. Uh ho. How do you relate concepts 00:05:51.100 --> 00:05:59.036 such as anguish with, uh, architectural manifestation? 00:05:59.069 --> 00:06:03.967 11 little corner of my theory is that, uh, anguish can be conquered by an 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:07.276 act of creation. 00:06:07.309 --> 00:06:12.437 In fact, the only way you can conquer anguish if not for forever but for a 00:06:12.470 --> 00:06:18.995 for a moment is by creating by transforming this language into into an act 00:06:19.028 --> 00:06:26.507 of creation. And for me, the the aesthetic is the true act of creation. 00:06:26.540 --> 00:06:33.046 You're you're associating anguish and entropy. 00:06:33.079 --> 00:06:37.317 Well, in a sense that, uh, that, uh, the reason for the existence of an is 00:06:37.350 --> 00:06:40.947 that entropy is seems to be dragging everything in the in the opposite 00:06:40.980 --> 00:06:48.067 direction of, uh, of sacredness, of the of consciousness. 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:53.736 This this, then, uh, is a way of understanding a term that you've used as 00:06:53.769 --> 00:06:58.127 the agenesis. 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:01.486 Is that a word of your invention? 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:06.745 What is the genesis of this Deric? 00:07:06.778 --> 00:07:14.106 Uh uh, you've You've ascribed more meaning to it than that, though. 00:07:14.139 --> 00:07:21.067 You've identified it as a holy act. Yeah, I did that because I in a way, I 00:07:21.100 --> 00:07:24.245 , um I resent 00:07:24.278 --> 00:07:27.765 this, uh, popularisation 00:07:27.798 --> 00:07:34.366 by which anybody in any kind of mood in any kind of, uh, of situation 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:40.536 creates something. Well, 00:07:40.569 --> 00:07:46.036 you don't. You don't really believe in Sunday. Painters? Yes, I believe in 00:07:46.069 --> 00:07:49.947 Sunday. Painters I. I believe that might be one of the recommended, uh, 00:07:49.980 --> 00:07:55.895 commendable activities. But let's face it, uh, this this is something that 00:07:55.928 --> 00:08:03.928 , uh, reveals and gives vent in a healthy way, maybe to idiosyncrasies, 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:09.007 which are very interesting to me. The person that paints, but very 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:12.866 relevant to you the person that the beholder 00:08:12.899 --> 00:08:18.926 and, uh, the the genesis of the static needs two elements the personal and 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:25.116 the universal. And if I come up only with the personal, that's my my bag. 00:08:25.149 --> 00:08:33.149 But, uh, I, I shouldn't import tune or or, uh, brag or scream about my my 00:08:34.119 --> 00:08:39.765 bag. My bag is my bag. 00:08:39.798 --> 00:08:46.186 And that's why most of what we call art is it's, um 00:08:46.219 --> 00:08:50.856 it's a, uh, a moral play 00:08:50.889 --> 00:08:53.807 or a psychological 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:56.515 exercise. 00:08:56.548 --> 00:09:03.946 VA therapeutic exercise, which are all very, very important. Very 00:09:03.979 --> 00:09:08.616 necessary. But, uh, we are still not touching on, uh, on a creation 00:09:08.649 --> 00:09:11.967 creative act. 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:18.076 Uh, still, uh, there are very few people who are architects and even fewer 00:09:18.109 --> 00:09:24.407 architects have the opportunity to exercise their art, tended to try to 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:27.736 look at things from a more universal. This is not peculiar to the 00:09:27.769 --> 00:09:32.486 architect, though it's peculiar to life. 00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:38.496 So what? Where does the ordinary person fit in this whole scheme? Well, 00:09:38.529 --> 00:09:42.686 there there are no ordinary persons. In one sense, we are all 00:09:42.719 --> 00:09:49.917 extraordinary because ordinary tends tends to be fundamentally non life. 00:09:49.950 --> 00:09:56.206 But in our extra extraordinary characters are contained within certain 00:09:56.239 --> 00:10:03.125 limits, which are the limits of the person. So I think mediocrity is not 00:10:03.158 --> 00:10:09.196 inborn in any one. Mediocrity is the choice that any one person can make 00:10:09.229 --> 00:10:15.326 when I it acquis acre acquis 00:10:15.359 --> 00:10:20.116 to, uh, two limits, which are inferior to the limits that this person can 00:10:20.149 --> 00:10:24.625 define for itself. Um, 00:10:24.658 --> 00:10:31.336 take music. We, most of us enjoy music might be good, bad, so, so 00:10:31.369 --> 00:10:36.515 indifferent. But very few of us are composers. 00:10:36.548 --> 00:10:40.686 So to say that because we cannot be composed, we cannot enjoy music 00:10:40.719 --> 00:10:43.576 doesn't make sense. 00:10:43.609 --> 00:10:50.015 There is the composer, which originates a specific set of sounds with the 00:10:50.048 --> 00:10:55.907 the performer, which is able to give to those sounds a certain substance 00:10:55.940 --> 00:11:00.135 and sometimes even add a little or subtract a little. And then there is 00:11:00.168 --> 00:11:05.307 the listener, which, uh, vicariously 00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:10.606 enjoys the creative act. And I think this is true for any any other field 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:17.775 of like, vend des. Very few people are composers. A number of people are 00:11:17.808 --> 00:11:23.375 are are performers. Most of us are the beholders, 00:11:23.408 --> 00:11:30.856 um, vicarious creators and so on. 00:11:30.889 --> 00:11:34.927 Well, it's easy to understand how singing in the shower can be pretty 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:41.157 healthy for, uh, almost everybody and everything. But to be creative about 00:11:41.190 --> 00:11:48.246 one's environment, uh, seems to be, uh, uh fraught with, uh, all kinds of 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:56.279 , uh, global dangers. And so, from that point of view, uh, comparing let's 00:11:56.529 --> 00:12:02.135 say music with architecture seems to be a bit dangerous. 00:12:02.168 --> 00:12:08.927 How does quote the extraordinary person, uh, involve himself creatively in 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:11.875 in his environment? 00:12:11.908 --> 00:12:15.746 You know, he argues that, really, uh, the self destruction of Phoenix is 00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:21.157 is simply at the hands of of these what I would call ordinary and what 00:12:21.190 --> 00:12:24.407 you'd call extraordinary people. 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:28.736 Well, first of all, the analogies are always have to be taken as an 00:12:28.769 --> 00:12:34.015 analogy. So you're right in saying that, uh, you cannot pick up the the 00:12:34.048 --> 00:12:39.557 musical field and then put it into the the environmental field. But I, I 00:12:39.590 --> 00:12:44.856 still think that it's quite appropriate to try to illustrate what 00:12:44.889 --> 00:12:52.889 generally happens by taking music as as an example. 00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:58.145 And I think it should be clear also, that the more 00:12:58.178 --> 00:13:01.427 the more you have something to say or you think you have something to say 00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:05.775 , the more you become responsible. So the more you live dangerously and 00:13:05.808 --> 00:13:12.547 the more you you you put danger in in what you make. But this is, uh, this 00:13:12.580 --> 00:13:20.580 is inherent To what, um, life is the the least dangerous thing is to be, 00:13:21.820 --> 00:13:27.407 uh, uh, an atom of hydrogen or something like that. I mean, because you 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:33.496 know that you'll be there forever, forever and ever. Well, you'll be be 00:13:33.529 --> 00:13:38.645 part of me, part of the the the carpet part of that in different times, 00:13:38.678 --> 00:13:45.496 and you can be sure of your internal existence. And the more you move into 00:13:45.529 --> 00:13:50.116 complexity, the more you live dangerously you are you're dealing with not 00:13:50.149 --> 00:13:57.125 the FES, but highly unstable and highly special kind of condition. So you 00:13:57.158 --> 00:14:04.307 move further and further into almost into the hypothetical. 00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:12.340 But that's really the the the the stuff life can escape that, 00:14:13.580 --> 00:14:18.525 uh, well certainly in terms of complexity, uh, being involved in the 00:14:18.558 --> 00:14:25.206 design of the environment, Uh, is, uh, uh a much more demanding activity, 00:14:25.239 --> 00:14:32.196 Let's say, than than music yes or no? A divine piece of music is as 00:14:32.229 --> 00:14:37.167 difficult to to to be composed as any divine building or as any divine 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:45.200 city. I think at a certain point, uh, the measurement is only, uh, how 00:14:45.379 --> 00:14:53.379 much power emanate radiate from this object, which might be a notes on a 00:14:54.229 --> 00:14:58.645 piece of paper or a or a city 00:14:58.678 --> 00:15:03.566 Still, I, I keep thinking, uh, comparing, uh, the musician with the 00:15:03.599 --> 00:15:11.196 architect that, uh, the musicians wears are, uh certainly, uh, more 00:15:11.229 --> 00:15:16.797 innocent, uh, in their impact on this earth, uh, than some of the things 00:15:16.830 --> 00:15:21.456 that builders are doing. Mhm. 00:15:21.489 --> 00:15:29.265 Well, I understand of the earthquake can do more than, uh, then I the most 00:15:29.298 --> 00:15:34.135 beautiful piano piece. 00:15:34.168 --> 00:15:41.375 But, uh, the earthquake stands for, uh, philanthropy. 00:15:41.408 --> 00:15:44.976 Piano stands for that. 00:15:45.009 --> 00:15:53.009 How can uh um, Well, how can everyone become a responsible architect? 00:15:54.389 --> 00:15:58.167 What might be a responsible man 00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:03.765 and then finding out if, if it's, uh, inclination is to be involved with 00:16:03.798 --> 00:16:08.836 environmental problems, because you you can be the mostly Constable man, 00:16:08.869 --> 00:16:12.436 and decide that architecture is not what I what I should be responsible 00:16:12.469 --> 00:16:15.446 for. 00:16:15.479 --> 00:16:22.456 But one can avoid music. One can avoid the environment that he's living in. 00:16:22.489 --> 00:16:30.489 Uh, so to that extent, it is even more a universal responsibility. 00:16:32.109 --> 00:16:38.206 Yeah, it involves, uh, in a way, survival. And, um well, being survival in 00:16:38.239 --> 00:16:41.746 the most base terms. 00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:45.936 What do you see? The role of the architect, then? Uh, if this is an 00:16:45.969 --> 00:16:53.969 understanding of the importance of environment, 00:16:54.340 --> 00:17:00.917 presumably architect should be in some sort of leadership role. 00:17:00.950 --> 00:17:06.127 But what should they be doing? 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:13.575 Well, we we we tend we say that democracy is to serve is to serve the 00:17:13.608 --> 00:17:18.676 people. So the arch should do what the people ask for I If that's 00:17:18.709 --> 00:17:23.996 democracy, I I'm out absolutely out. 00:17:24.029 --> 00:17:29.325 First of all, I don't think that any one of us knows exactly what what we 00:17:29.358 --> 00:17:37.358 want. Second, I think that most of us tend to want things which we really 00:17:37.858 --> 00:17:42.416 would not want if we if we tried, if we made a little greater effort to 00:17:42.449 --> 00:17:46.506 understand ourselves. So to say that there is a market and I have to 00:17:46.539 --> 00:17:54.206 satisfy the market, I think it's it's an responsible act. 00:17:54.239 --> 00:17:58.526 So as you were saying, the act has to be a leader like any. Any person has 00:17:58.559 --> 00:18:01.706 to be a leader. 00:18:01.739 --> 00:18:07.746 Well, particularly if he possesses expertise in his field. Uh, he has some 00:18:07.779 --> 00:18:11.367 larger responsibilities that are well outside of himself. Yeah, there has 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:15.367 to be a sense of responsibility, for one thing, and then, uh, try to go on 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:20.967 from there and the sense of responsibility. My my godfather is making this 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:29.000 person decided that's not the field he should be in because she's been 00:18:29.088 --> 00:18:33.147 still it. Well, it it it seems as though we we have some very large 00:18:33.180 --> 00:18:41.180 problems in relating what architects can do to the larger social 00:18:41.739 --> 00:18:49.739 responsibility. 00:18:51.059 --> 00:18:53.986 Well, yeah, we have poems 00:18:54.019 --> 00:18:58.236 about since I know the thing and and perhaps you know it also, from the 00:18:58.269 --> 00:19:01.956 architect's point of view, Uh, I wonder if if there's any way to think 00:19:01.989 --> 00:19:05.726 about it from the other point of view from the non architect's point of 00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:13.759 view, maybe Maybe there, um, that's a way to be. That's another way to get 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:18.506 into the problem and try to understand what's possible. 00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:22.607 Well, yeah, if if you study yourselves in a in a corner and say that there 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:26.585 is a There is the populace there, there, mankind and I It's me here, and 00:19:26.618 --> 00:19:32.226 I'm going to be to dictate to this Massed, 00:19:32.259 --> 00:19:37.825 uh, what's good for the mass is evidently, uh, we are off. 00:19:37.858 --> 00:19:45.858 So you try to be to be, uh, human and, uh, understand that you belong to 00:19:45.969 --> 00:19:51.717 the system and to the group and to humanity, and then try to understand 00:19:51.750 --> 00:19:56.055 what those needs the needs of this humanity at the present might be and 00:19:56.088 --> 00:20:02.867 then try to do your best to to co with those needs. 00:20:02.900 --> 00:20:09.006 And most of the time, uh, it seems to me the accurate doesn't do that. 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.516 The arch events ideas 00:20:12.549 --> 00:20:17.217 about single problems and then when it when it gets down to to a certain 00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:21.627 contest, tends to forget those 00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:27.285 breast problems. 00:20:27.318 --> 00:20:35.318 Uh, that came up yesterday, I think, in the ala casan in the discussion. 00:20:35.368 --> 00:20:38.266 And, um, 00:20:38.299 --> 00:20:43.147 I said something about to this girl that was asking me, Keep in mind, 00:20:43.180 --> 00:20:47.097 there's a building in the back of you and the bell says energy segregation 00:20:47.130 --> 00:20:49.647 , 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:54.107 uh, pollution, 00:20:54.140 --> 00:20:56.996 my conservation 00:20:57.029 --> 00:20:59.766 complexity. 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.686 Yeah, And those rs You should keep bringing, because if you If you forget 00:21:03.719 --> 00:21:06.285 one of them, then evidently you're You're forgetting something very 00:21:06.318 --> 00:21:08.996 substantial. 00:21:09.029 --> 00:21:14.016 And only only when when those they are ringing tells you that you are 00:21:14.049 --> 00:21:18.226 conscious of them. And you are trying to work with them together. You 00:21:18.259 --> 00:21:26.259 possibly you might come up with, uh, with at least a partial answer. 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:36.676 OK, that's that's a tough one. Maybe we should take a break here, or are 00:21:36.709 --> 00:21:39.956 you just warmed up? 00:21:39.989 --> 00:21:43.835 How are they supposed to end? What time is it? Oh, we haven't gotten into 00:21:43.868 --> 00:21:50.325 your personal life yet. 00:21:50.358 --> 00:21:57.936 Uh, could we quiet down, please? 00:21:57.969 --> 00:22:04.476 Um, in this conversation with, uh, Paolo Soleri, Uh, I'd like to try to 00:22:04.509 --> 00:22:12.509 review, um, some of the events in your life if you're ready for history. 00:22:13.328 --> 00:22:20.496 Uh, and, uh, maybe we could begin by looking at your monogram. 00:22:20.529 --> 00:22:28.509 And I wonder if you could explain what this symbol is supposed to mean. 00:22:29.318 --> 00:22:31.318 First to be remembering. What does it mean? Well, it's on your letterhead 00:22:33.348 --> 00:22:41.348 that's going to disappear in the next edition. 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:46.196 Um, 00:22:46.229 --> 00:22:49.766 I think I had, um, 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:56.065 that represented the foundation work and those who were representing, uh, 00:22:56.098 --> 00:23:02.545 some kind of a collaboration or help coming from different institutions 00:23:02.578 --> 00:23:06.627 that, uh, what those were? I don't remember. I remember that this school 00:23:06.660 --> 00:23:14.660 was one. So that, in effect, this was a a stylized diagram of all certain 00:23:15.049 --> 00:23:20.446 co cooperating effort. They would have some kind of a centre in the 00:23:20.479 --> 00:23:26.055 foundation and try to grow into something. And and this was something that 00:23:26.088 --> 00:23:31.996 you designed in the mid sixties when you started to focus on the the Kani 00:23:32.029 --> 00:23:39.367 Foundation. Uh, you you say you're going to discontinue using it? Yeah. P 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:43.906 time has been meaningless to me. Have you? Have you designed a new 00:23:43.939 --> 00:23:51.285 monogram? We have one for the Alco Zant, which is which is a little 00:23:51.318 --> 00:23:59.318 similar to the KANTI symbol, But yeah, we might use that. 00:24:02.900 --> 00:24:08.097 Can can you explain why you're in Arizona? 00:24:08.130 --> 00:24:14.137 I mean, is it is it an accident is an act. Is it an act of 00:24:14.170 --> 00:24:18.446 fate for a faith? 00:24:18.479 --> 00:24:26.065 FA ITH? Yeah, it's a combination of accidents and interests and so on. The 00:24:26.098 --> 00:24:31.815 main thing was that Frank O Wright had its winter quarters here, which 00:24:31.848 --> 00:24:36.256 means that I I happen to come here and get acquainted with this 00:24:36.289 --> 00:24:42.967 environment because I came to to stay in the South Nation that is 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:48.226 foundation. But still, you must find Arizona very sympathetic to your 00:24:48.259 --> 00:24:51.967 needs, or you wouldn't be here. 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:57.055 I tend to like the warm, warmish, warmer climates 00:24:57.088 --> 00:25:03.936 I like very much the the landscape of the West. 00:25:03.969 --> 00:25:11.969 You mean the openness, the tender and the strength and the the frugality 00:25:12.239 --> 00:25:15.456 of the of the landscape. 00:25:15.489 --> 00:25:20.347 Uh, I'm a little bit surprised that you're not more, uh, intrigued with 00:25:20.380 --> 00:25:26.065 oceans. Maybe it's the fact that you weren't born on an ocean. No, I'm in 00:25:26.098 --> 00:25:29.976 the ocean, but we are waiting for, uh, for California to sink in just to 00:25:30.009 --> 00:25:38.009 fall off. So we are building boats, the backyard. 00:25:38.848 --> 00:25:45.217 But you you have not. Uh well, you did live, uh, in Italy and, uh, VA tree 00:25:45.250 --> 00:25:50.686 , Uh, for three or four years on the sea. 00:25:50.719 --> 00:25:55.075 Well, my greatest greatest experience in of the sea was not when we move 00:25:55.108 --> 00:26:02.436 we When I when I start bicycling throughout Italy and, uh, I was 18 or so 00:26:02.469 --> 00:26:07.946 , and suddenly there was the sea when I had seen the sea Only when I was 00:26:07.979 --> 00:26:10.906 four or five and we couldn't afford it because we were too poor to get to 00:26:10.939 --> 00:26:14.887 the sea. So that was the great moment for me to to get acquainted with the 00:26:14.920 --> 00:26:20.597 sea. Uh, around 18, when I got there by bicycling from, uh, from the 00:26:20.630 --> 00:26:25.686 inland and to it. Where did you see it first, then at Genoa, Or it wasn't 00:26:25.719 --> 00:26:32.075 , uh, it wasn't Genoa, but it was not south in Genoa. 00:26:32.108 --> 00:26:38.397 Uh, you mentioned, uh, seeing Italy, Uh, by bicycle at the age of 18. How 00:26:38.430 --> 00:26:42.976 was that? Just a summer, or did you spend a longer time? Was summer summer 00:26:43.009 --> 00:26:46.045 tips 00:26:46.078 --> 00:26:53.637 And you kept? Yeah, I can. Was picked. I was picked up by, um, by a naval 00:26:53.670 --> 00:26:56.256 outfit, 00:26:56.289 --> 00:27:01.956 and I had sketches, so they decided I was a spy. 00:27:01.989 --> 00:27:07.467 This was the beginning of the war 00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:15.500 to the eighties. I was You know that? 29 30 39. So you were 20 years old. 00:27:15.650 --> 00:27:20.305 Uh, Did they lock you up? Yep. In one of the one of the oldest fortresses 00:27:20.338 --> 00:27:28.338 , Uh, prison fortresses. And, uh, where was that? South China. Not far 00:27:30.348 --> 00:27:34.647 from, uh, from, uh, 00:27:34.680 --> 00:27:38.825 zero AJ. Oh, yes. 00:27:38.858 --> 00:27:46.206 But they let you out five or six days. Enjoy my my FA. Five or six days. 00:27:46.239 --> 00:27:50.956 It was a nice was an experience because you were. You were in with the 00:27:50.989 --> 00:27:56.325 very old, uh, people. You know, where you were. People that loved you 00:27:56.358 --> 00:28:02.347 picked up three apples because they were hungry or it was quite an 00:28:02.380 --> 00:28:07.055 experience. So So, Well, you weren't in with political prisoners you were 00:28:07.088 --> 00:28:15.088 in with, uh, uh, petty criminals. Uh, how did how did they clear you? Oh, 00:28:15.939 --> 00:28:22.607 they finally got some information from my family and so on. Ah, but I know 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:29.627 I got my sketches back. 00:28:29.660 --> 00:28:35.075 Well, also, during the war, you spent some time in France at Grenoble? 00:28:35.108 --> 00:28:41.565 No, I spent that time before the war. And I know that was before the war. 00:28:41.598 --> 00:28:49.598 I was 13 or 15. Did you go to school in France? Yeah. Seven or eight 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.887 months. 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:57.045 No longer than a year. 00:28:57.078 --> 00:29:03.026 Uh, you you knew France from your, uh, Italian school background or you 00:29:03.059 --> 00:29:08.756 just picked it up. Called the language. Yes, I learned when I was in 00:29:08.789 --> 00:29:12.446 school. 00:29:12.479 --> 00:29:17.746 Uh, you once mentioned uh, a little story about, uh how you evaded the 00:29:17.779 --> 00:29:25.779 draught. I never evaded that. I was I. I refused to become a lieutenant, 00:29:28.059 --> 00:29:35.295 but you were in uniform. Oh, yes. And how do you avoid being promoted. I 00:29:35.328 --> 00:29:39.097 had I had What? No, 00:29:39.130 --> 00:29:43.266 I had what you call, uh, in Italian a Punta, which means, uh, at the 00:29:43.299 --> 00:29:48.416 beginning of an. So in order to become a, uh, a lieutenant, you have to 00:29:48.449 --> 00:29:55.055 operate. You couldn't be a new lieutenant with an army. 00:29:55.088 --> 00:30:02.815 So, uh, I never I never enjoyed the idea of of commanding people 00:30:02.848 --> 00:30:07.416 and definitely not commanding people in a on a battlefield, so I decided I 00:30:07.449 --> 00:30:12.597 would I would remain, Uh, What do you call it? A private private. 00:30:12.630 --> 00:30:17.436 So it was How did you accomplish that? I. I didn't I didn't get my earlier 00:30:17.469 --> 00:30:23.035 off. Uh 00:30:23.068 --> 00:30:28.785 uh. I've never quite understood how you could continue your architectural 00:30:28.818 --> 00:30:35.246 education during the war. Uh, the school the the Polytechnic kept open. Oh 00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:38.476 , yeah, 00:30:38.509 --> 00:30:43.026 I in the last two years, I. I couldn't do exams because I was a known 00:30:43.059 --> 00:30:49.555 person because I didn't register with the with the fascist republic, 00:30:49.588 --> 00:30:56.016 But, uh, I was very lucky. I never had Well, I was picked up once, but 00:30:56.049 --> 00:31:02.186 luckily it was picked up by by the by the, uh, Italian army, not by the by 00:31:02.219 --> 00:31:09.217 the German army. So after all, after being told that I was a trade or X 00:31:09.250 --> 00:31:14.377 they they kicked me out, and but, fundamentally, you were going to school 00:31:14.410 --> 00:31:16.986 full time. 00:31:17.019 --> 00:31:22.916 No, I don't remember ever going to school full time, but, uh, I I was 00:31:22.949 --> 00:31:29.805 going enough to to have to be able to follow the classes, but I couldn't. 00:31:29.838 --> 00:31:34.847 I couldn't go through with the exams until the end of the war. So, uh, 00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:41.357 then at the end of the war, uh, you could take the final examinations in 00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:46.406 the school, complete the exams that I I didn't have before and then finish 00:31:46.439 --> 00:31:50.535 , 00:31:50.568 --> 00:31:55.045 Do you think? Well, I'm sure that the war had a lot of effect on you. How 00:31:55.078 --> 00:32:02.785 can you relate how it might have directed your ideas? 00:32:02.818 --> 00:32:06.766 Well, I'm sure everybody was affected. Uh, what surprises me is the 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:13.166 dullness and the the 00:32:13.199 --> 00:32:19.117 I want to call it the lack of of, uh, understanding of really what? What's 00:32:19.150 --> 00:32:24.176 happening? Based on my part at that time, You mean you really didn't have 00:32:24.209 --> 00:32:28.026 a comprehensive idea of what it was all about? I mean, supposedly I had it 00:32:28.059 --> 00:32:33.847 in the senate that, you know, you listened to the London clandestine news 00:32:33.880 --> 00:32:39.996 and, uh, I I happen to be in touch with few elements that were quite in. 00:32:40.029 --> 00:32:45.305 But the more I look back, the more I feel that, uh, there was a a great 00:32:45.338 --> 00:32:52.946 amount of responsibility in my part, Due to just, you know, you live day 00:32:52.979 --> 00:33:00.979 by day and, uh, you hear about things and you go on in your own. 00:33:01.578 --> 00:33:05.706 In other words, you're surprised at at how normal your life was during the 00:33:05.739 --> 00:33:10.217 war. 00:33:10.250 --> 00:33:14.496 Well, I was saying I I had I had got great luck because I could have been 00:33:14.529 --> 00:33:20.906 deported many times. I could have ended up in, uh, anywhere in Russia or 00:33:20.939 --> 00:33:27.555 well, in a consultation camp, who knows what And I wasn't, 00:33:27.588 --> 00:33:34.256 uh, so living. Do you think that living through the war affected, uh, any 00:33:34.289 --> 00:33:39.196 of your ideas of social responsibility? Well, a post when you when you 00:33:39.229 --> 00:33:46.006 start to when the thing starts to, uh, uh, leak into you I mean, uh, begin 00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:50.986 to penetrate into you, then Then you begin to realise what happened. But 00:33:51.019 --> 00:33:55.246 it took years to realise what's happening. You you're still educating 00:33:55.279 --> 00:34:02.726 yourself that way. Oh, yeah. In fact, there is. There is almost a 00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:06.847 what do you call it? A um, 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:10.956 anything that refers to those those times, it's it's not very important to 00:34:10.989 --> 00:34:15.256 me any documentary, any anything that relates to those years. It's very, 00:34:15.289 --> 00:34:19.706 very important. You feel that you have to catch up with with what happened. 00:34:19.739 --> 00:34:27.126 In a sense, yes, and and you had to gear your behaviour now to your 00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:30.856 behaviour, then somehow 00:34:30.889 --> 00:34:34.606 that's interesting, because if if I could make an observation, I'm not 00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:38.885 sure that you're particularly historically minded, 00:34:38.918 --> 00:34:46.918 but that that event you feel some special responsibility about, 00:34:47.028 --> 00:34:51.715 well, historically minded you mean in general or you mean, uh your history 00:34:51.748 --> 00:34:58.236 ? I mean it both ways. Well, what what belongs to your own history? I 00:34:58.269 --> 00:35:03.155 think it's, uh it's very much present in everyone. 00:35:03.188 --> 00:35:08.115 But some people live in the past, and some people, uh uh, tend to avoid 00:35:08.148 --> 00:35:13.736 the past. Yeah, but that war is very pleasant. It's very pleasant. Not 00:35:13.769 --> 00:35:21.026 just to me, to everyone, even if you don't know it. It was a a tonne of 00:35:21.059 --> 00:35:26.276 gigantic proportions. 00:35:26.309 --> 00:35:31.517 Yes, we're still much still very much in it. 00:35:31.550 --> 00:35:33.936 So, 00:35:33.969 --> 00:35:39.227 I, I think one of the interesting aspects of of your history has been this 00:35:39.260 --> 00:35:46.095 , uh, combination of Italian and American experiences 00:35:46.128 --> 00:35:54.066 and the manner in which you maybe, uh, have synthesised, uh, two cultures 00:35:54.099 --> 00:35:58.816 that aren't totally identical. How do you look on yourself as an American 00:35:58.849 --> 00:36:01.925 ? 00:36:01.958 --> 00:36:08.046 I realise you don't carry a passport. But you, uh 00:36:08.079 --> 00:36:15.057 really Do you have You're certainly at home here, and you have very much 00:36:15.090 --> 00:36:20.566 identified yourself with American issues. Uh, is that did that come 00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:24.365 difficult with some difficulty? 00:36:24.398 --> 00:36:29.445 Well, uh, I identify with American issues when I see them as universal 00:36:29.478 --> 00:36:36.106 issues as a world issues, I'd I'm pretty much uninterested in American as 00:36:36.139 --> 00:36:41.327 such as I am an audience to be in Italy as such, 00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:45.787 uh, I wish I could lose my citizenship, any kind of citizenship, because, 00:36:45.820 --> 00:36:50.267 I, I don't believe in in citizenship. 00:36:50.300 --> 00:36:55.796 At the same time, I'm not making an effort to, you know, to proselytise 00:36:55.829 --> 00:37:01.227 the universal, the universal citizenship or anything like that. I haven't 00:37:01.260 --> 00:37:05.836 known anything about it, but but in effect, your concept of citizenship is 00:37:05.869 --> 00:37:12.800 a very strong one. It simply has has universal boundaries and not national. 00:37:12.978 --> 00:37:14.978 Yeah, well, then, then you know your season of the of the world, but I 00:37:17.110 --> 00:37:20.376 mean, yeah, 00:37:20.409 --> 00:37:28.409 um but when you got married, you, uh rather deliberately returned to Italy. 00:37:29.269 --> 00:37:31.269 Uh, presumably you hope to be able to live there. Yeah, well, for one 00:37:35.469 --> 00:37:43.469 thing, uh uh, Carly was very eager to find out what what Italy was. So we 00:37:43.530 --> 00:37:48.236 But also, you had come to this country, uh, to learn, not necessarily to 00:37:48.269 --> 00:37:53.827 settle. So, uh, so you returned to Torino. 00:37:53.860 --> 00:38:01.860 Um, and then you left it. You went south. You went south. Was it the 00:38:02.059 --> 00:38:09.896 coldness or what were the factors that, uh, uh made you leave the place 00:38:09.929 --> 00:38:12.675 that you were brought up? 00:38:12.708 --> 00:38:19.057 Well, the idea of going back was to try to begin a process which maybe was 00:38:19.090 --> 00:38:24.655 similar to to the front or right situation where you have your family 00:38:24.688 --> 00:38:32.017 within a larger group. Yes. Maybe it was a tribal thing. I don't know. So 00:38:32.050 --> 00:38:35.767 that was the intention. So we attempted to to develop that at a certain 00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:38.885 point, we started. We We are we at the beginning of that, we are to one or 00:38:38.918 --> 00:38:44.776 two person that were willing to to try this. This was in Torino. Yeah. So 00:38:44.809 --> 00:38:50.747 we decided we would We would do some travelling find out 00:38:50.780 --> 00:38:54.615 through the travelling through the experience that we might get what kind 00:38:54.648 --> 00:39:00.418 of activities would would be able to support us outside of architecture. 00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:03.719 Because personally, I thought that I couldn't make it as an architect, as 00:39:05.469 --> 00:39:09.876 a professional, well or alternatively, that you would sacrifice your 00:39:09.909 --> 00:39:13.936 integrity if you did. That's what I meant. I. I couldn't fit myself in the 00:39:13.969 --> 00:39:19.336 in in the profession as I knew all of them. So I was trying to find a 00:39:19.369 --> 00:39:26.566 source of, um, of income that would allow me to to have some free time to 00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:28.666 develop 00:39:28.699 --> 00:39:36.405 whatever it was at that point that I had vaguely in mind. 00:39:36.438 --> 00:39:41.896 So you did identify activities to support yourselves. Those activities 00:39:41.929 --> 00:39:47.896 were were in the field of class, possibly because I was interested in in 00:39:47.929 --> 00:39:53.816 and using my hands somehow. And they were, and that was successful. I 00:39:53.849 --> 00:39:58.986 guess so. I mean, it's very awful. Now, you you Well, you kept yourself 00:39:59.019 --> 00:40:04.405 alive. But then why did you leave the North? 00:40:04.438 --> 00:40:10.236 Well, it just happened that we one thing was I wanted to to know a little 00:40:10.269 --> 00:40:15.066 more about Italy. I knew better all about it, and, uh, and calling you or 00:40:15.099 --> 00:40:19.845 nothing. Then there was the fact of the climate the appeal of the sea and 00:40:19.878 --> 00:40:24.227 so on. 00:40:24.260 --> 00:40:29.717 So but still you You rejected Torino. 00:40:29.750 --> 00:40:32.115 Yeah. 00:40:32.148 --> 00:40:36.086 You didn't feel it was a 00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:41.206 compatible place for key ideas. Especially when you're young, you always 00:40:41.239 --> 00:40:44.925 feel that maybe the next place it's really what you are going to find 00:40:44.958 --> 00:40:49.717 something. So So you move it. Part of the migratory impulse that you have 00:40:49.750 --> 00:40:53.267 when you are young. 00:40:53.300 --> 00:40:59.695 And then you spent three years, uh, on the Amalfi Coast and we learned 00:40:59.728 --> 00:41:05.945 something about ceramics, and we built a A little factory. 00:41:05.978 --> 00:41:11.537 And then what was it that made you move on from there? 00:41:11.570 --> 00:41:17.425 We have a We had a flood. And that Carly, this little town for over a year 00:41:17.458 --> 00:41:22.717 , it was very damaging. 00:41:22.750 --> 00:41:27.405 The power went off. Water was on for quite a while. And K was in this 00:41:27.438 --> 00:41:29.756 country 00:41:29.789 --> 00:41:37.675 at that time full of for a wedding for my sister. So after struggling for 00:41:37.708 --> 00:41:44.095 about eight months there, I decided that I would come back here 00:41:44.128 --> 00:41:47.756 and then when you returned to this country, you didn't come first to 00:41:47.789 --> 00:41:52.247 Arizona. You spent a little time in New Mexico? Yeah. We spent us only in 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:59.106 Santa Fe. And why didn't you settle there very often. In the morning, my 00:41:59.139 --> 00:42:04.477 pots were frozen. That was August. So I said, if August gives me that, 00:42:04.510 --> 00:42:09.425 think of what December is going to bring. So it was the idea of working 00:42:09.458 --> 00:42:11.526 outdoors 00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:16.155 that brought you back to the Phoenix area 00:42:16.188 --> 00:42:19.546 and and here you stay. 00:42:19.579 --> 00:42:23.186 Um, 00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:26.066 that's 00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:30.155 well, you You returned to Phoenix where? Which is where you've been 00:42:30.188 --> 00:42:36.086 introduced to the desert. Why did you leave? Uh, Taliesin after a 00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:41.405 relatively short time. You nasty. 00:42:41.438 --> 00:42:44.445 Next question. 00:42:44.478 --> 00:42:48.655 That's always a question that's raised. It's the question is which is 00:42:48.688 --> 00:42:56.688 rejected. I don't care. Um, when when you came to when you came back to 00:42:56.889 --> 00:43:04.836 Phoenix. Uh, then you came to Doubletree Road and you you shared the house 00:43:04.869 --> 00:43:08.686 that you're in now. And 00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:15.646 gradually, uh, yeah. Bought that property. 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:19.405 Yeah, well, we bought the property with with somehow dating from Chloe's 00:43:19.438 --> 00:43:27.438 father. Um, no I. I wondered in your choice of the property at Doubletree 00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:32.756 Road whether that was quite accidental or whether there were some 00:43:32.789 --> 00:43:39.316 deliberate reasons why you were why you were there. For instance, when one 00:43:39.349 --> 00:43:45.365 looks at Taliesin, uh, one can understand, Uh, that Mr Wright was very 00:43:45.398 --> 00:43:51.747 deliberate in choosing that particular place, and I'm wondering why or how 00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:57.135 you chose the place that you are. Well, when Mr Wright chose, yes, he was 00:43:57.168 --> 00:44:03.486 a famous man. He was an established architect, a great artist. And he was 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:07.787 in his sixties or so, Yes, when when we choose Double three, we were a 00:44:07.820 --> 00:44:15.820 couple with one child, and, uh, we we we can afford very much. We needed 00:44:16.320 --> 00:44:23.066 to be near the city because of of cost problems. So the the conditions 00:44:23.099 --> 00:44:26.026 were totally different. 00:44:26.059 --> 00:44:30.796 You're suggesting you didn't have much of a free choice? Well, well, our 00:44:30.829 --> 00:44:35.626 ambitions were very limited because also because we didn't have very much 00:44:35.659 --> 00:44:40.767 of a choice. And at that point, we we were not in, uh, again in the idea 00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.456 of having a larger group. We were just trying to do good roots and, uh, 00:44:45.489 --> 00:44:50.006 begin from there and not knowing where we would go from and alter. You 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:54.256 didn't know that you'd be there for a long time. No, I only knew that we 00:44:54.289 --> 00:44:58.827 would not be there forever, but that was it. Uh well, that thought that 00:44:58.860 --> 00:45:03.166 you wouldn't be there forever, I suppose was, uh, one of the generating 00:45:03.199 --> 00:45:09.006 ideas. Uh, in the sixties, when you began to think about the Kazan 00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:13.845 Foundation on another location. Yeah, 00:45:13.878 --> 00:45:18.217 well, if you remember that we started looking around many years ago. Yes, 00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:21.287 it was in the early sixties. 00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:26.796 Um, one of the questions that's sometimes raised is has to do with the 00:45:26.829 --> 00:45:34.217 sort of social organisation or the relationship between people in, uh in 00:45:34.250 --> 00:45:40.885 such a larger community. Uh, in the, uh, in the first proposals for a new 00:45:40.918 --> 00:45:46.429 Kani. Uh, it was very much the idea of an artist.