Maybe 74. I don't know. I got the date over there. I tell you what it was.
Anyway,
he was going up to San Francisco.
She got some good in. He stopped at it twice
by Celia California and the doctor there, he became acquainted with the
doctor always told stop to goodbye. And he met my mother there who came
out to California,
an uncle of hers told her that they did the school teachers. He was one of
the bands out there in the gold rush. She came over on the first
one of the first trips made by the Central Pacific Union Pacific railroad.
And she told me that Buffalo girls crossed the track twice. They had to
stop. The train came from the east of California. She came, she was a
native of Arkansas and uh she left school in Memphis and she was a school
teacher. What was, what was her name? Do you remember? Davis S Davis.
Davis.
Davis was her name and she went from Arkansas to California on one of the
first uh Union Pacific trains. Was it? Yes. The very early train I say so
early that there was still herds of buffalo that they had to stop the
train and let them go across the track. She told me that occurred twice
and the way you across the plains. Well, she taught school and, and she
was teaching in Visalia when, uh, my father stopped there any better and
after a couple of years he persuaded to marry and they were married in
1876.
And, uh,
the South Pacific railroad was completed then from San Francisco, South
Los Angeles out about,
you know, and they had to take the stage and come across there and then
these teams met him up.
That's where I was born the following year. But then they came back to
this place where he was going the mill. Is that what they called Hayden's
ferry? Yes, he had, he had the bill and he also had a ferry boat across
the river and the river was up. It was a cable like this. In order to ir
the old bull, you let it down this way and push it over and let it down
the other way to push it back. I would stay on the cable on the cable, but
you just put the bull at an angle and the car pushed it across or hold a
team of horses, wagons and so on. So they could take free wagons, they
like that across,
but the force of the stream would take it across. That's right. So that's
where I was born when I was up to right of the time of my birth that I've
been working on what he did. And I let you look at
it. That was in 77. Was it 78 that you were born?
And, uh, 1877
which makes me 84 years old now.
Um, well, what was Haiti's fry? Like at that time was just the, just the
store and then the wide open spaces there. Well, then see he filed on the
, on the four section of land where they,
where they was and some other people, your body, you find that
were they home sites in those days? You had what they call a preemption
law. I think you had to make certain improvements and then you get a
patent, easy to get a patent.
So he pounded this 160 acres, part of it in the river and part of the town
and acquired all the land where the town of Tee and the State University
and all that. He owned all that area at the time.
When did they change it? When did they call it temporary? That was a good
year later on the band.
Darryl Dupper.
What's that?
Either a graduate of Oxford or Cambridge? He was a, a British Remittance
man. He, they send him money every now and then, England. Very brilliant.
What was his last name? D Dup P ad DD Saint Clair.
Yeah. D was a very brilliant fellow
record. When he did his, he'd get all big drunk and things like that. But
he suggested the name of Phoenix because of the
Indian ruins. Rather. He said it would rise from the ashes of the old, the
spirits of the vision and then the Tempe, he said it was a beautiful
country like the vale of Tempe between Mount Osa about Olympus in Greece
where the gods came down.
Part
suggested both names. He suggested both.
Well, they called it the Tempe Canal. Tempe and somebody suggested that
I'd be better name the town. My father said, yes, take so much in to write
as ha
how far out of Phoenix is Tempe? Nine miles. I've been to Phoenix, but I
don't think I ever saw. Tempe is just nine miles east and across the river.
I know we have a good team of trotters that take an hour when I was a boy
to drive.
How did you get out there in the open space? By the time I got old enough
to get to school, my mother was a school teacher and she was very much
interest in establishing school and getting good teachers. So I went to a
little
one room, Adobe schoolhouse versus a small boy and then graduated, got out
of public school. And then in the meantime, I been established the a
little territorial law school there. They same legislature that
established the University of Arizona, established this no school which
ultimately gave a college in the State University, the second State
University, about 11,000 students.
I went to, I graduated from normal school. And then my father heard about
Stanford University that they had elective courses. He never had a use for
that degree. That was a waste of time and so on. And I went up there with
what credits I had and they had now 12 credits. I think I had eight.
So they said you can enter but you have to make every hour every semester
or to leave. So I picked courses that were particularly tall. I didn't
think a degree for Latin or mathematics, anything like that. I took
history and economics. English, think about copy. But my chief ambition
was to development of a man has always been a spindler boy and I went to
the gym there. I weighed 100 and £32
went on the track and didn't do much good there, played football and uh I
left there, I weighed over 100 and £80 old. That's uh I played, I was, how
many years were you there? Four years.
I didn't compete four years because
I went home for Christmas. And my father died in January and I had to take
over the, what year did you go to Stanford? Did you start? 696?
I would be in the class in 1900 to see. But I went to December 99 and then
and I went home, my father passed away and I had to take charge of the
visit. We had the flow. So last year you were there.
Uh, how about the football? Was it much different then than it is just
guards back tackle back? But no, no, no, no buckin around the ends. Just
the biggest heaviest man knocked the other one down. Right. Did they have
, did they have 11 men on the side? And that same as a, these are center
guards tackled hands and fullbacks. What did you play? Center? I found out
that the way to get a long, there was to grab legs and let them fall on
top of you. That's still a good way. I guess that is, you get in a pile
and I get broke it up. Did they, did they play rival colleges up and down
the whole? No, the only
big game we had was the or of California? No, nothing but rail. All you
couldn't travel distance. There were other colleges far away. So we would
play games with the two athletic clubs in San Francisco and L in the
Olympic club. One week we played the Olympics and the next week we play
the, in the University of California. The other way you see where these in
San Francisco we play in San Francisco. There was enough interest in the
game you see that they charge a mission and uh, yeah, clubs could get,
they didn't have any big stadiums, of course. Like they, no, no, they,
they would have fairly decent field and grandstand and all that. And then
you had showers where you could,
uh, did you play any other sports at Stanford? And, well, I, I tried out
for the track. My leg was short island. I was little short legged island.
See, I was 511 but from the waist up, plenty of eyes. But I have my legs
are short, little short. I want to go on the track.
You got to be a long metal follower.
How my operation. Well, um then you came back when your father died that
last year at college, you came back to, to take charge of the Billy and
Burger Deal business. Well, uh time were tough and I had a hell of a time
. I, I made up my mind there was no merchants or traders like he was so I
consolidated the barbecue business and then I had an opportunity to rent
the mill, uh a good figure. And so I did that and uh oh, we're going to
run for sheriff. If they had said that you didn't care for, you didn't
care for business very much. I think I, I thought you see it to be a
merchant. You've got to know how to buy if you don't buy, right? You can,
you don't make anything. It was one hand the other one was the credit
business. So you had to trust the farm for a whole year. And if he got a
good pay and he did
all that, it was quite a gamble, a gamble. And I just figured out what,
any good for that business and I better get out. So,
as I said, I figured I'd be a sheriff. They just old had said you elect
the counter creditor for term because we want Sam Stout. He defeat the
Republican. He, he should be another term that next time it would be for
you. And they were so
my first real political experience was to go to the Democratic National
Convention. I was elected a delegate to it 94 Saint Louis. And I know it
is Brian. Was it Brian? No, Parker. Parker? Oh, yeah, they didn't get
anywhere because he was on the gold standard, you remember? Oh, yeah. Well
, did the parties permit the territories to send delegates in the
Conservatives have always just like we are now. Well, a big delegation, I
think we 45, but just enough to represent it. I was one of them
smart old lawyer down. You can smoke on me that I find him and then I'll
be chairman, what he wanted. He was on the platform committee and I didn't
know enough to know that he got sick one day. I remember the ST Louis
papers that strict with the heat. And so I didnt get on one session. I saw
WJ Brian with his coat over his shirt sleeve.
David B Hill. A lot of those old time Brian was in there too, wasn't he?
Brian was there? I got a chance to see that this old sets.
That was the gold versus silver. The big question. That was it. They had a
kind of a part of this for the gold standard. He lost the election.
Um, I read a clipping down in, down at the star which said that as a boy
you read, I don't know how many volumes of R Pats History was that. I know
my father, I was always a great reader of my father always thought the
book and I did that. It was a red Past History of the World I read. Yeah.
So that was why you were in a grade school and normal school, I guess.
Well, when I was 1415 years old, I think I'd probably,
he always subscribed to good magazines and uh he had quite a lot of books.
He was a great reader himself. He had a way of always getting a book, but
he was on his travels to see whether he have a long way to go. An
ambulance, take a new book along with him and read it. You see, I remember
an old man named Cho told me that my father was reading Draper's
intellectual development of yours. That was ok. And the,
the father and the driver in the ambulance
c was falling along behind on a, for providing a particular color. You
were the Tucson and they were down in the static of the river bottom. He
saw some
and the arrow weeds there. So he thought, well, they might be in the past
year. Learn. He took a shot at it and there was a big disturbance in there
then. So he came in town, he told the Mexicans in town that he thought
maybe he'd got an Indian and they went out there and it wasn't a dead
Indian. They cut his head off and put on a pole in the town
passage. You see it was Tucson of the Wall Town. Yes, they got it all that
until we w around a small part of it that expanded before the store
outside of it. Well, this was before he went up to the river. Oh, yes,
long before. But I remember that particular title we had the book when I
was a boy. Yeah. Is that so I think I read somewhere that you were born
and is still standing out there. What he did? He came over to the
street, Mill Avenue, the main street in Tempe
and across the street, uh streets are over 100 ft wide than there. About
100 degrees wide. He built a store, see, and then he built adjoining the
store, adobe rooms where he lived and that became quite a place. Went up
to the corner and down. It was a patio on the, inside the back of that was
a bar and the back of that was a big grain warehouse on the places where
the teams could, uh, take care of them
when you were going to school. And growing up around there, you had to
stay pretty close to home, I suppose. On account of the Indians, didn't
you? Well, there, at the time I got all I know about the Apache business
was seeing signal fires on the moon.
And I remember,
I got a memory that when they captured her run animal. Oh, is that so? Yes
, I remember that. And then I remember that General Miles came out and
they gave him a sword to Saul and then they came to Phoenix and they had
to celebrate because he kept it to run. I remember that.
But what I knew about the thing was that we had a big place there and
there was always
in the room for a guest. Old t would come and see friends of his that he
knew in Tucson or they'd stop overnight. I'd sit down there and listen to
him talk, made me go to bed. But that way I heard a lot of things grow up
about the pioneer conditions. Is that, is that still on? Do you,
what, what do you suppose? What got you first interested in politics?
Senator? What
I just
decided that, uh, the sheriff's office was paid off, well, paid fees.
But
I want to be shareable. I start out and they told me to call the treasurer.
I took that office. We paid in gold in those days.
You didn't see so many greenbacks out there. Nobody liked greenbacks. And
, oh, I remember, uh, and I was that year a man named John Phillips who
after became governor of a Republican elected
probate judge.
And uh, he was paid quarterly.
So you got $200 a month. I shoved off $600 worth of $100 gold pieces
underneath of modification. And he stood off and looked and said, is that
all my money? I said, yes, that's the most money I've had in my life. But
we, we paid gold. That's when you were county treasurer got a treasurer.
But then two years after that, I was like, she, I served that term. What
year was that? I mean, you were elected chair. I was elected 94 treasure
96. She and the director there. I get that then re-elected in 98. And then
that would make in 1910 or 1910, they had passed a bill off to the state
of terror of Arizona City. And that bill carried everybody over.
So all together, I served
245,
at least four years. I, there are more than four
you served until you went and came to congress. You must have heard what I
had to do. Stay there until I
carry over. All the county officials
was anticipating statehood. And um but then they, then they have a state
constitution to operate under I was a delegate, democratic rights in 94
like Trade America in 94 sheriff, 96 again in 98 and ma is head of the
bishop of service. Elected 62nd congress, the seven succeeding Corn in
February 1919 12. See that the state elections were primary election for
us was held in 1911, 1911.
Uh, and uh record somewhere. Then they about a month afterwards, they had
the primary itself. That one, the, the nomination that I won the election
and that was early November or December 1912. Then you had to wait until
the adopted the constitution that was 11, wasn't it
that they had to wait until they adopted the constitution and the
constitution was approved
it once he objected to the judge had to meet again and take that out and
then it de the admission a New Mexico the same time until February 14th,
1912, I had to stay there to turn over my office and I had to stay there
in order to get a certificate of election from the new Secretary of State
and I got on the train came back. So you were really sheriff about six
years, all altogether. You stayed in sheriff until you came to the house
in. Well, from January
for five years. I mean, in January 19 7, wasn't it? Uh, uh, I, yeah, it
would be five years between five and six years. A little over five years
from January to February over to February 14th. Was that, were you sheriff
of what is now Phoenix? What is now, the whole city of Phoenix
is about as big as the state of Connecticut.
Uh, was it a very rugged job in those days? No, I was joking about why did
anybody call him up on the telephone?
I didn't have any real trouble.
They, the only
we do it all get our business and, uh, I had no trouble going here. We did.
You get rough with anybody? I had a deputy that was the only woman. All
the end up. Same old John riding around town. There should be some kind of
redneck leas about it.
Wonder why I've done it. Well, went down there.
But you wait a lot or way more, you light up and grab it on you. I like
you got the light there. Well, let's talk about it. I've talked to him a
while and told him that, uh, sure that he'd get some justice if he'd come
down to the courthouse. Go down there. I got him to get inside and go to
court and he got all women.
You believe in doing it the way the easiest way would be diplomatic.
Pull it in and make it. Do you ever look at these on television? Now? They
, they, that's what I figured
I have a rest horse thief one time, a notorious horse thief. He was, I got
a description of him. Well, part of his old saloon, he was standing at the
bar, he just put a gun on his back trying to stick up his hand and then
took his gun away from him and I stood with him. You didn't break up all
the furniture in the place, the way that you put on television, thing like
that, you could, you could make it a restaurant, grabbing somebody or
beating him up. Talk about it. Did, uh, did they organize pass much in, in
your time? Sheriff? Not very good deputies.
Both Wayne Davidson and uh my successor. I was j they were great trailers.
Oh God, they could get on a horse and just take tracks and own them
anymore. I had a judge out there in Maine named Kenny. He was the son of
the Governor Ken. He was the first Republican governor elect of the United
States. There was the old saying, man went, held back for Governor Kent.
He was his son,
the judge. He didn't leave tracks.
I don't know why Hollywood and I think is the best kind of food. Yeah. Uh
huh. You got a solo shoe. The imprint of it to find the shoe on the man.
The man was there.
These were good trackers. Wait one time when they said somebody had stolen
a pistol at a sheep cam. He went out there and pick the mare another. She
cared about so many miles away. There was a, and by following his foot. Oh
, yes. All you had to do, I guess the weather had something to do with
that area. If it, if it rained in between it didn't rain much. That's one
of your troubles down there. It never did rain enough, did it? Well, it
rains six inches a year there as compared to 48 years that uh were any of
these characters that they have on these television shows? Now, some of
those were real well, they have tombstones and this, of course, they've
exaggerated. I didn't know a damn thing about that. I know that I was
coming along. Boy. Tombstone, busted, you see the price. So it went down a
good many people came over and tombstone further north and Tom went down
the south east corner.
A lot of people came over there. Uh,
and you never knew figures, but you were barred to install it. Very good
friend of mine and, and uh I helped him get overseas when he was one of,
he was a very fine stenographer first. You said a quarter or whatever. Mhm.
There are different families like that that moved from Tucson into
Phoenix into that area.
I heard a lot of talk about but I know so I went there with my father
before the bust.
That's right. Was that a mining center is that why it got such a
reputation? Is that where they were, they discovered there's a very rich
sort about there. And, uh,
he went down there on some business when I was a boy, took me along, we
went to Benson and got our old Edward stagecoach road was up and down, up
and down and then it was a mine that they call a contention mine. I, and
we got interview when we were down the shaft. In fact, that was the first
time I was in mine. I scared it when the bottom dropped out. But they had
a way of just let that go and catching it up before it hit the, hit the
bottom. Especially if they had a greenhorn in there. Huh? Yeah. But, uh,
II, I was a small, I, I just have a collection of tombstone
riding the stage and going down the mine shaft was the biggest thing that
I saw. What were most of the, of the cases? You'd have a sheriff,
certain cases and, uh, all kinds of theory and took care of the insane and
things like that.
I had a name on there. Um, because he came home very prominent family in
Sonora where we educated in Mexico and, uh, talk with him one evening.
What came in said that, uh, I was gonna want to kill her. I was gonna kill
her. She was scared, her husband was gonna kill him. Yeah, he tried to
kill her. So scared. And, uh, she said, uh, he's the man that killed, that
man found dead down ever railroad tracks. I said, how do you know when he
came home? He told me he did it and he took my sewing machine oil and
cleaned out his lower. I said, you married to him said, no, you're living
with him so she could be a witness. I got him. He was the right one, the
right one
or the state prison in Yuma then or had they set it up at Florence? No, I
had to take prisoners, Yuma all the way over to Yuma. Uh We have a term of
courts at home and get 34 time and take them down there by 19 6 was uh was
Phoenix. Uh pretty, pretty good settlement by then. A number of people
over there was, I don't remember what the and I view 10 census of Phoenix
would show you would find out and of course, it's grown by leaps and
bounds in the last 3030 years or so. I guess a comp compare every small
town but
thriving community in those days. Was it a transfer point for people pay,
going through or did you? It was the stub end of two lines railroad. It's
about 3040 miles down to the South Pacific. It's much longer over 100
miles up of Santa Fe and the South Pacific first built a railroad in a
place called Maricopa Junction and across the river bridge across the Salt
River, right near where I was born because of Phoenix. And uh other road
came down from the north.
It came in later too. So they had railroad connections but you had to go
ST line each way.
One thing I wondered about senator, uh, that might be of interest to Jerry.
What was the uh relative strength of the Republicans and the Democrats?
And, and what did in general did the two, what was the difference between
the two parties out there? Well, the time you first got into the poli,
between Arizona and New Mexico was um,
the Confederates defeated Confederate soldiers that lost out, drifted west
and a lot of them settled in that area and that was the backbone of the
democracy, the area in, in both New Mexico and Arizona. No, in Arizona,
Arizona, in New Mexico, they had this uh uh
Mexico was loyal to the union that is around Santa Fe up that area and
they a Republican, they had more people than we had. And the statehood
fight uh that we had for all of us years before we got in Oklahoma and uh
Indian territory would be consolidated in one state and everybody knew it
would be a democratic state. So they idea was then to consolidate Arizona
and New Mexico, a load of that cut off from the Mexico. Lincoln was
president and made a separate territory. Lincoln did. Yes, that was 61.
Why
they see that. That's where the centennial comes in. You see. Mhm. It's
100 years since Arizona was made separate, separate territory under legal
industry. Well, if they could put Arizona and Mexico together, the
Republican majority in Mexico would overcome the democratic majority in
Arizona. They wanted, they wanted one state out of the two territories.
Sure. But then they would get two Republican senators about the two that
Oklahoma
the thing up and we had about three sessions of three different Congress.
We had this fighter and the ability of a few senators in the Senate take
time to talk.
Freedom is a debate and it kept Arizona being consolidated. They just said
you just can't do that to those people and they talked every time they
tried to do it and finally they gave way and gave us the right to a
separate vote. Each state was to vote and if both of them, each terror was
vote, both of them voted for the joint state. All right. Either one voted
, no, New Mexico voted for a joint statehood. We want to go. And so that's
how we could be admitted Southerners who came out there after the war and
settled in Arizona. They would be mostly Democrats.
I looked at the backbone was
an old man named Long.
Uh I was the superintendent of public instruction by appointment. The
president would appoint a public go and, and the staff and so on this one
always on the go or staff that way. And somebody said to him on election
day, the old man vote Republican ticket and then he got along and take a
few drinks and somebody said, well, how do you come? So many Democrats in
Arizona, the old man says a vigilance of peace officers in Texas
in Texas didn't give Arizona any credit. Well, then me, they were driven
out of Texas.
That was the way it had to get out of it.
Oh, Bill Baron was a great talker and he introduced Gore at home one time
and made a very flowy speech to the big meeting. What, how you knew Gore
in Oklahoma and what a great senator he was and so on. Was this the blind
, the blind senator from Oklahoma or blind? And go up said, I'm very
grateful to Billy Barnum for his introduction. He said, everybody said, if
he could have stayed in Oklahoma, the grand jury would have cured him,
would have cleared him.
And
that concluded the pertinent
a portion of the interview conducted on October the 9th, 1961.
And now we'll go right on to the next day, October 10th, the same parties.
And, uh, also in the Senator's Washington office
on at Maricopa and rode the train out to the Gila River, which is about
seven or eight miles from Maricopa Junction and they pulled the bell cord
and got off in the meantime, they just went through, robbed everybody on
the train, like the conductor taking up tickets. Yeah, just like that.
There were two boys, uh, brothers named Woodson before and, uh, they
decided to involve the train. So they rented two horses of delivery stable
and, uh, Phoenix drove over and tied them in the brush in the river bottom.
Oh, they were going to get off and then when they, and they walked over
to a got on the train, they got to the bridge, they stopped coordinator
and stopped and they got off and they took their horses. They had, that
was a plan. Well, as I say, the train came in, uh my son out there, uh
they told me about it and I said, well, if you'll give us a hand uh stop
car, put the horses in there and go there and get on the trail in the
morning. So they did that
a horse or video as that word dog came in and reservation to ask for some
and he had police fever my c and uh
as some have over there in the morning mountain.
So following, we have trackers, we took our horses off and go along with
the opinion, please. Is that where
during the night, John Nelson was sheriff of chemo. Same in all the train
. I did
customs than to
or a customer that and uh so he want to go, why you give John my horse?
They ride that sheriff, he you going down and they just counted the way
the trail follow it. And
the man named mccarthy had this African Jack Rabbit car, Larry in Maricopa.
So he said that you get, we'll have one in his, we were going to have one
of the in his scouts come back
and, uh, when the police come back and tell us which way the thing was
going to the trail was that we could take the car and after a while they
came in and reported that the, you remember the bed of Maricopa, a flat
top mountain right south of the junction? Mhm. Well, if they had gone
around the end of that mountain, so, and turned around it. So, uh, it
looked like they were going to go that way. So we went about halfway to
Casa Grande and then took out across the place. Well, I had my, I like
what I used at the camp car or a dependable go,
got anywhere near on one of these new business. Um, and it took a long
time for me, kept the trail to stay on it. And I don't know where they're
going and then send the India back about noon. I think we left. It must
have been about two o'clock, but I meant they possibly going back horse.
They said their horse are out of water. They had, had these this morning
and then they go to a little place called Ken and, uh, get some water by
the ho up tracks and they said they're so fresh, the Indians don't stay in
front anymore. So, down this road, I think we go down the road in the car.
You go. And so that
to train drivers they never thought about being pursued by automobiles.
They were out of water. Yeah. And, uh, so they tied their horses when they
heard the car coming and disarmed themselves apparently. And, uh, came out
to ask for water. Yeah, we just hopped out and cut out and covered them. I
know Conon was kind of nervous. He, one of them didn't put up his hand
when he taken a, a certain two pistols and one of the passengers, he had a
base as pocket, but I didn't put him up because he didn't. So we got out
of disarmed on Monday and comfortable. Then they fired some shots in the
air and the horse wasn't having gone so far. What they could hear it all
came back up.
One of my deputies, old named Bill Wilson got an old police officer,
tombstone five room home. And, uh, I told Bill I was kind of tired and not
to ride in a car. I,
the horse, I thought we did, we went over to Cocklebur and the automobile
broke down.
Had to get a Indian. I see my horse. I know it, little wagon with no bed
on it. Put the president on their handcuff and right away we got a cast on
the way of the night
on the damn car. I had check the night before. We hardly any, as a matter
of fact, or, or that kind, I would sleep on a billiard table.
I did. The Indian police always work with you on
that. Police were very good. Were they on the reservation there on every
Indian reservation they have Indian Police
law and order and you can call on them any time. That's what I know. They
, they have a, I thought that was an interesting case. I just wonder, hey
, I get a little more up there on the, the rest of the story wasn't when
we landed and, uh, Casa Grande were, of course, they telegraphed in the
Phoenix and we had them, they were there and they were coming on the train
and when the train came along, uh, early in the morning we got in there.
You need just a little lab. So, and, uh, and, uh, what I want to do is put
him in jail, slam the door and go and get some sleep. I have to swipe on
my hand.
Other men went there of course and took the president up and did that.
Well, I got some sleep. I come out of there. I bet the old fellow, uh, but
not very well up in the courthouse. He said, Carl, I'd rather be used my
wife on my hand. I have little friend Robert. That would be president of
two Magistrates. He thought it was a great, they have, they have much of
the stuff with them that they got off the pass. Yeah. Well, it was, they
took watches and took
things like that and they disarmed the cover of a deputy sheriff who had a
printer who be,
they just covered him and took his gun away from him. He was on the train.
You see, they got, they came up from behind, they walk behind each
bastard with their gun. He used everything you got. They took watches and
money. They didn't turn his prisoner loose. So, uh, they didn't turn this
prisoner loose at all. There were trainers moving and went on in
good to jump off the train and divorce the guard to hold him anyhow. And
then I was, and he was handcuffed was, but the guard was, had his gun on
his side that his cover away from him. The, uh, number two session, uh,
session of August the 10th, 1961. Uh, continues on the flip of this tape.
There was an interruption here. Uh, a telephone call the senator had to
take. So the continuity may be broken a little.