This will be a recording with Mr Sam Hodges, a retired Phoenix street
railway motorman, conductor and employee who went to work for the railway
system in 1913,
worked with the system until the first world war when he joined the army.
And then um he came back from the army. When he came back from the army,
he went to Oklahoma City and then ultimately returned to Phoenix in 1922
or thereabouts. And once again took up driving the street cars in the city
of Phoenix where he did so. And
until the last car ran in 1948 he ran one of the last cars back down
Washington Street during the last run ceremonies around their tickets to
Glendale. There we go.
I was curious as to how you use them. In other words, you punch them. It
says, it says like 1st, 2nd and 3rd. What was that referring to? Hm.
And if that myself,
which was Orangewood Curve, the one that turned and went to Glendale or
the one by the powerhouse
that is the, the, the powerhouse, you sure
they call that district in there. Orangewood? Is that the idea that area
district in there. Now, this is the date here and this is months, right?
And this is, uh, there here and this is the fair that they, uh, that's
half fair. And this, here's the, to see
one day, the round trip tickets were grown person is 50 cents. You see 35
cents, 150 round trip. And, uh, old Black Canyon, I guess, you know where
that used to be. Now, where was that? Well, it's over the side of the New
Black Canyon somewhere. Well, the old Black Canyon road before they built
the freeway out there's a Black Canyon road. But what avenue? I think it
went out. 27th Avenue. I not care. Somewhere along in there. And that
Kelby,
this means something, but I was really curious
to because there, it's like 1st, 2nd and 3rd, there never was the 1st, 2nd
and 3rd. well, there were streets like that but not that you'd be using on
that, on that line.
I'm just kind of curious. So the number the same here is here and the food
that over you through both of them at the same time, you see, like get
some head back. Yeah. From seventh Street man. School here. Yeah, in 73
men's school. That would be a returning ticket and this would be the
ticket that you keep, wanted to go out and keep this and give them this
for return to. And what was, uh, what was Alhambra? Was that a road up by
the Alhambra road down from Alhambra, North, north and Sugar Beet Road?
Where the Sugar Beet?
Well, I was really curious about those numbers.
Recall what they use. Part of the I pass
in that, the section it says, well, that the sections,
I guess, I mean, it's next on, see here it is, uh, section three,
let's see. And road
and these numbers and what for now? Uh, it's, that made best as long as I
worked on him, I don't remember what this for. He must not have punched
him. Then he'd never, you know, I didn't, it's on there for some
identification, I think for the office, what zone is in, I guess that was
stops, I imagine in a certain area I'd imagine. But I wouldn't be sure
that it, but it looks like it might be. Now, this is, uh, in his school in
Seventh Street here. You know, that is where you turn off just before we
got to the school road and go over to Seventh Street. And then, uh, uh,
when you 12th Street school road, we come right up 12th Street out here
and see if I can find it to be over here somewhere. What was 12th Street
like? Then when 12th Street went to the streets to up the street and I was
just coming out through, I say all the way to de cur was going through
window, there's cross streets, camel back and Missourian several others.
Now, see, they're not on here because the, uh,
from one of these to the other and there might be three or four stops
between,
say in the school road, seventh street and in school road to Desert Curve
was one fire.
That's why the camel back in Missouri and Highland and all them places
were. Well, yeah, and Desert Curve was, uh, Maryland Avenue was Bethany
Home road through then. Well, it is north of this, I don't think it was,
it was north of the Carline.
It's up north, close to Glendale Avenue. See, we went out Marilyn from, uh
, C Curve which is 12th Street in Maryland. Now over across seventh street
and went to what would be third street. There was no street there, but we
turned, there was Maryland a, uh, was Maryland paved in a street or was
that just move to dirt street? Yeah, and not traveled much. Yeah. Just you
hardly ever seen the car on the dirt on both sides of the track? This
place to drive was just dirt. How about? But the one coming down 12th
there wasn't even a place to drive, huh? Or was that all private? Right
away? 12, what do you mean? 12? Well, from Desert Curve south to, well,
Desert Curve.
No, we come through fields and the roads. There's Rose Lane. And, uh, I
remember in the Missouri Avenue and Camel back and Camel Avenue and there
was all them, but uh they're not on here a lot of them because the fire
zone here. Old Black Canyon
to New Black Canyon. See that Alhambra was all in one fire zone down there.
Then
section three in Sugar Road that is in, right in Glendale.
You say you laid over in Glendale for a couple of hours, two hours and 40
minutes to noon and 12 left to 240.
What time did you go out in the morning? We left the car at 720
in the morning. Then we got back to Glendale at 12, laid over till, uh, uh
, 2240.
Then we pulled back to Phoenix and we got into Barn that night at 730.
How many round trips did you make this time? Uh, we'll see, we made one
every hour and 40 minutes, I think. Yeah. You see, it was, uh,
I think it was, uh,
and they took,
yeah, it took one hour to go from here to switch.
If you mean a passing switch going out this way. Did you meet another car
there? But that car, every trip, we had a 20 minute layover in Glendale
because it just took 10 minutes less time to go from the switch to
Glendale didn't come and switch here. Sounds like somebody planned it bad.
Yeah. Well, the, we intentionally for some reason, I don't know why, but
I think we did and then, uh, we'd have to get there 10 minutes before they
got into Phoenix. And then we'd lay over 10 minutes after they left
Phoenix in order to meet there to switch.
So,
an hour and four car over an hour and 40 minutes from the run.
But they generally, you generally meet, met one at the switch. There was
always one time. What time did I tell you? I got here tonight. 1111 30
1130. Did they leave any cars out in Glendale all night or did they bring
them all back? No, not. They didn't have the barn was here in Phoenix. And
they, if they left in there, I didn't know they'd leave it. No, they
didn't leave it that easy. They pull him.
Yes, smudge tanks. They pull them out. They never did leave one there. Don
, if it broke down wouldn't run. It might sometime, but I did not regular.
What kind of a car did they use to pull the tax? It is a long under car,
full motor car. Uh, do you remember what number it was? Is 30
in 31. I'm pretty sure at 31.
Yeah. And 32 there, three of them, they got them from Los Angeles and the
31 had, uh, four motors and the freight compartment on one end. And that's
when they used to haul the tank cars. It was a four motor car and two
motors wouldn't hardly pull. They would, I guess would be pretty tough.
Those cars were all here when you got here, I guess,
were those, all those all had enclosed ends? In other words, you weren't
exposed to the wind, not all cars. Now, we had several cars where the
turtle top we called it nothing on the sides ends or anywhere around it
like that. Open cars wide open. You've seen them, I guess, turn the seats
goes all the way across and the run aboard one end to the other and there
are two motor car and the four wheels is a motor on each action. Yeah, the
only time I ever rode on one of those was, there's one in a museum back
east and they operate it in a place called, uh, uh, it's by New Haven,
Connecticut is where it is and they've got a museum there in about a
couple of miles of track and that's one of the kinds of cars they have.
It's except it's a big long double truck car, but it's open and on all the
sides seats and everything like that.
But you still had some of those here when you got here. So there were
several of them. You know, what did, what was the system like when you
first got here? What, where, where did it go?
How many lines were there? There was a Washington Street line which went
around the East Lake Park and out the 18th Avenue, 22nd Avenue. Yeah. And
then the, uh, W line runs and, uh, around second took off at second, a no
, first street, first street in Washington was, uh, the terminal that
right in front of the court store there. Did they have a switch, a
sidetrack or anything there? Yeah, they had a sidetrack in case, uh, uh,
Glendale car, the people who worked the Glendale car come in and parked
there and before they got into Washington Street there between Adams and
Washington and they had a cut off switch and they'd switch off over there
and they'd stay in Phoenix, uh, the two hour and 40 minutes and we stay in
the window. Now, where was that switch? Was that right next to the Coric
store there? Between, uh, Adams and Washington was out in the middle of
the street, you know, and they offset a little bit left and that, that
there is a dead end switch. You go in there and park and then you have to
back out and come back this way, which, which was the dead end. The south
couldn't go to Washington Street on it. Just put in there. They drove two
cars in there and they park their car there and then take it to the Barnes
and Barnes was 13 for Morrison students. Well, now where did the, uh, that
when you went out on the Brill or the Indian school or any of the, or the
, or the orange wood line while you went in straight out 1st, 1st street
to Rosa. Unless, you know, unless you were going on the Brill and then you
went on, the Brill went to, uh,
yeah, we see now that Brill one went out first street too, didn't? I
thought it went to Piers. Yeah. And then cross and cross Fourth Street and
on, out to 10th Street and the north. Yeah, it did. But it went to, uh, on
first street. That's what I, yeah, and,
and then the Indian school and the others went on up, Roosevelt. Was that
all single track up there? Yeah, they had to switch it, cover
a passing switch in the school. Uh, cars had two cars over the passing
switch to cover, shoot. So then the Indian school, even when you got up to
, to Roosevelt and then over to third and then you went up third. It was,
it was a single track, huh? Yeah, the Indian school was single track. The
single track all the way up from, uh, where Pierce where all the way
downtown, the single b in the school, all of them come out to save him.
And the PB turned to Pierce and in school turned it to one third and the
third in his school. Well, third wasn't open all the way through for
automobiles. For travel is open to her landing. And there was a bridge
there for the street cars but there was no bridge for automobiles was the
only, the only switch on that line. Uh, the one at Culver cover, that's
the only one at that time, you know, wasn't too lonely elders.
It wasn't too long. They rebuilt it and they rebuilt it, I think in 1914
or thereabouts it would have been pretty soon after you got there. Yeah.
Yeah, I, I remember when they rebuilt it because I was born, you put a
switch just north of mcdowell when it's rebuilding and we come up there
and put it in on that switch and let the other car go south and then we
had to back out and take back with the Glendale and in his school cars
passing, we didn't have a regular switch. He took it out and using that
offset. And one day we pulled in there and we had that full motor car and
I had to, I took off that day and I was at home and Wesley Winter went out
to the man now Feather off motorman and he, uh,
he claimed to be a motor instructor. He's a wise man, knew everything and
they pulled into that switch and then when they got ready to back up, he
gives him four barrels to back up, then hold the trolley, watch, see, get
off the track and he started backing out and when he got far enough out,
he thought he could coast out. He pulled his reverse key back to go ahead
and push it to go ahead and boy that stopped just like that full motor car
when you put a reverse key on it and they just die. Well, it just, just
stop like you did hit a brick wall and he was a smart man. He asked him
what happened? He said, the old man said nothing, you just reversed. It
said, no, I didn't. Now the other cars you had to put the reverse key
backwards and then feed it up and it did reverse. But that was different.
He got a lot of kick out of that because the man is so wise
anyway, let's don't go with your business again. That's, that's the kind
of thing I want to hear about. But they fired him for that. It, for
splitting the brill switch and denying it and strength and I split one and
we tore things up pretty bad and we owned up to everything and they didn't
fire us. He asked me one day how come they didn't fire you? They fired me
. I said, did I asked Mitchell? I don't know.
Yeah. Tell I'd like you to tell me that story again about how you did that
was they split how you split the sweat. Well, we just, uh, you see, I
wasn't the cause of it. We weren't to blame for the spell. It had happen
regardless of what I was doing, but we were doing what you were supposed
to, it was breaking the rules. We know it, we knew it would. And we had
the, a bara trans married to his Kate now and lives on the 1400 block on
East Garfield Street. And I couldn't tell you his number, but I could find
it in the phone book, I think. Anyway, Joe Bush should know it because he
is a brother in law to Joe Bush. He, and so we've got some candy and some
bananas or something that the barn had a store there where that building
is on the corner of Third, on the west side there. Bond Brothers. And we
went in there and got some stuff and where, where did you pick up the girl
? We picked them up Thomas Road. I believe we had a special whistle and we
ho ho ho ho certain amount, you know, and they knew it was, they'd come
out and ride with us over night. And so
this night is a fatal night, we started back and I, I was talking to Kate
there and the old guard just back of the other track and the turn close
like that and broke all the wars underneath. It was shot. So you were
going north when that happened? No, coming south in school. It's double
tracked up to one block of the inner school. Yeah. And that, that is where
with the switch, which I see the, the car went off on the, on the tracks.
Come like this double track. Yeah. Come like that. And you, uh, Joe Bush
Parker had went through that, uh, lock switch thinking that it was a
spraying switch like a ra have. And he went through it and he bent that
this little kind of loosened it a little bit like that little crack and
that back wheel jumped it. Oh, boy, just turned close. Well, they come out
and send this town they got after snake got after Kate and you read a
Miller and question him. It was all three days. And I went in told the
newcomer, I said, well, I guess it's time for me to take off and find
another job. He said, what do you mean? I said, well, just wait a minute
about that time. Riley Palmer come in, his chief supervisor and he'd
called down and told him he wanted somebody to work at and I his short, so
white Riley walked in and Newcomer said to him, here's your man to work
for you tonight. I thought to myself. Yeah, I will. But I didn't expect to.
So I didn't say anything. I went, I went to work the next day. They told
us we'd have to get different runs. We couldn't work together. Well, I
didn't blame him. You'd have to give up your special whistle. They make,
you give up the special whistle when you cross Thomas road. And no man
ever said nothing about the whistle that didn't enter into it. We didn't
have the whistle car that night
and we had a 140 types. I'm pretty sure. No, 33 but 33 and number one was
our whistle type. For some reason, it didn't go out. Sometimes I had to
repair them, you know, get some control, keep them in. You didn't have the
same car all the time. And what did they usually, when you first went to
work, what did they usually run on the Glendale line? What do you usually
run on? What kind of cars? The, the three and three? Yeah, 1 30 31 and 30
31 32 and 3031
was two motor cars. Two motors will do pretty good but it comes to big
heavy pulling, uh, especially if we go to pull trailers. I imagine that
Los Angeles had that four motor car to pull trailers on the lines. They
had out of Los Angeles and we had,
had the three over there and this one got a board, we can keep it in and
work on it while we use the other two.
What did they, what kind, what cars did they usually use on the Indian
school? Number one is one of the specials, main ones and then just move
anything else. Thompson was a sick man. I had to work closer and he had a
high rate high in Georgia rights. And they gave him number one because he
was weakly and had air dry, air brakes on it. And run good. He could make
schedule easier, kind of pat and he, he got that. But see, the Thompson
that was ended up at one time being the manager. Yeah,
go ahead and tell me some more about that. That's, well, what was, what
was car number one like? Was it easy to drive? Oh, yeah. Is it always the
same? Very bad to say, depending on what the equipment was on it. The air
brakes is the easy part. You have to do it like this round, round, just
take a wheel and turn it around like that through the hands to pull one
back like that. It's still hard work. What, what, what cars had this had
the crank, uh, brakes on it. Well, there's about three or four of them
Little Dinkies, I forgot how many, there's several of them little dinky
cars had a round wheel and a RR you at the bottom, you know, and you turn
that around in your locket with your toe, push that through and the locket
and then you turn it around again, you got it tight enough to stop and
then you had to release it little time to keep them stopping up the jerk.
You know, I forgot how many we had to live here and that stop it pretty
good. Yeah, pretty good. But you had to work at it. That was a big thing.
What other, what other kind of brakes did they have? That's all kind of
had air brakes and, well, it had a, a goose neck. We called it the thing
come up like this, you know, and then out like this and the handle on it,
he turned around like that, wind it up the same idea as the wheel, except
some of those wheels and some were goose necks. We call them, the goose
neck is easier to crack. Not much easier. All about the same. Did the
wheels have something on so you could turn them easier or were they just a
wheel? No, you don't turn the wheels on them, you know, not like steering
the car, they steer themselves, the rail, steers it. No, but I meant, I
meant the brake when you turn the, uh, when the, the brakes had had a
circular type deal, you turn the wheel.
We have
worked pretty good. It worked. All right. You had no how, but it, it is
simple. The simple part is concerned is the labor
and they all like our brakes because it's easy. You just push your lever
over it and they get away from it. They knock your, your boy and if you
pull one of them, uh, down like that and it, uh, somebody stand there
behind you, you allow to take the dress up with you as you come back up. I
did do that a few times. But, um, was that on purpose or is that? No, I, I
didn't look back. I was busy. You have to look ahead all the time. The
rule says you must be looking ahead all the time at all times when the car
is in motion and you don't look back. Of course, you can glance back to
doing what it was. It's t restrict on that. You don't look over very much.
What was it? What was the 40 cars like to run? Well, it was easy to run
as heavy and it kind of heavy car. Were they already here when you got
here or? No? No, they ordered them, this, the, they were new when they got
here. Four of them. Yeah, they, uh, order, they come by the time you come
here, didn't they?
Yeah, they come two months after I went to work, they had them ordered, I
think when I went to work, they, they got them, by the time he went to
work several months after I went to work, what color were they remember
how they have them painted?
Well, no, the Arwood was Glendale but I think there was kind of reddish on
the side, on the side.
I, I might have been yellow.
The track did, they were dead twice since then. I died down to its
hospital in 69.
My operation led to death and they finally put, take 12 hours and a half,
but they broke me out of it. Be done. Yeah. And I fell under the table
with a heart attack back when my wife died, she drugged me out and jerked
me around. It wasn't a heart attack actually what it was. Uh, gall bladder
empty too fast and throw the gas in the here and cut the, push the liver
up and cut the bent. That the, what you call it. I forgot what they call
them. Now that the main artery goes into the heart from above. Then that
where the blood wouldn't go through. That's what it was. It's been a heart
attack. I probably state did. But, and she had to move me. I would anyway
, she just pulled me around trying to pull them out on the table and that
loosened it up. So, well, you've been around a bit. I was trying to figure
out what, what color they were and, and when they were different, when you
first got here, what colors did they have on? Mostly yellow or yellow?
Yeah, orange kind of orange, yellow and orange is yellow. Do you have any
kind of brown or trim on them or anything like that? I don't remember any
of you.
They pretty well the same. I think
they may have had, they seem like they did and the top was always black. I
think they had caught her on top of maybe. Could be sure you get up there
there getting first. Well, they didn't, they, when they didn't get those
cars that they got from San Diego while you were here, did they, or did
they got while you were in the army when I come back to what, what lines
when you first went to work were running? Did they have the Hollywood line
yet, or? No, they build it just not long after I went to work. See, what
year did they build at Hollywood? Was you here when they built it?
Yeah, I think it seems to me they built that when I was an army
during that time, I guess when they built that. So,
what was that one? What, what other ones were, were going when you got
here? What are the lines? Fairgrounds, the fairgrounds called Grand Avenue.
They didn't have any switches on that, did they? Yeah, they had a, a
meeting place over at Ninth and, uh, Grand Avenue, Ninth Avenue and Avenue.
They did have switch there where we passed, there's two cars and the one
went to Seventh Street and one to Fairground. They passed at Ninth and, uh
, Granddad had to switch there and then that car ran on where downtown it
went down to Seventh Street, you know, and there went down on Seventh
Street and then there's a cut across. You, you go through the switch and
cut across and turn around and go back on the other track through
Washington Street. But now how did they run? The one that went down to the
train station for train station? They come in from Grand Avenue and they
had to switch at First Avenue and every and every so many runs would go
down to every train time, you know, train time, they turned over and went
down there and then come back to up, went down Washington Street to
Seventh Street and back to Grand Avenue. Who did, who did the, who did all
the turn it off. If somebody had, it didn't make any difference who it was
, you know, different people working. Like for instance, if you don't have
any seniority, you start to work, you start to work on the extra board. Uh
You don't have a run anything at all. You just go in every day and look at
the bulletin board, the extra board and you're marked up for something,
maybe a motorman, maybe conductor, uh maybe in the school may well depend
on who's laying off this regular man signs for these runs for three months
, conductor, an order and sign up for three months, three months later,
they got to have another sign up. You might work a year actually on the
exit board before you get a regular run. See, and your first regular run
will naturally be the toughest hours on the job because everybody else is
ahead of you. You have to take the roughest. So it didn't make too much
difference. What were the toughest one night one would be a night run, I
guess, or split run sometimes long split runs. Sometimes they have a run
about six o'clock in the morning work till 12 and go out maybe three
o'clock in the afternoon work nine at night. Yeah, that's pretty tough.
Well, they had them all times. They had to have so much service and had to
figure them out the best they could, you know. But you got the worst. You
, better than that when it was last.
What were you always doing? Putting the, putting the motorman and
conductor badge on and off of the hats. And when you, and you know, they
had badges that said motorman and conductor on them, when you were working
the extra board, you must have been putting them on and off your hat all
the time. No, you just wore the same one. You didn't make any difference.
The they later in later years, they, they was operators in one man cars.
They call them operators. They don't call them conductor. Motorman either.
They're operator because they operate the total car collecting their
booth. Well, when you first went to work today, you, you would either sign
up as a motorman or a conductor, whichever you want. Yeah, whichever come
open, see, you take whatever. If a motorman run, come open, you'd sign for
it because you didn't want to work the extra board. If he's conducting his
own for it. What was, what was the packing house? Special packing house?
Pressure. Yeah, we didn't have one. I don't know. Well, there's in their
books. There's something that shows revenue and it says packing house
special and, uh, they have it written up just like another, like you would
any of the other lines. In other words, they'll have a big column and
it'll say Grand Avenue line have all the receipts and then there'll be a
little notation. Packing house special. So much money. I was just kind of
curious as to what that was or might have been.
Uh, do you ever hear of packing house special? There's only one packing
house here and there, that cactus packing plant out there just east of the
,
that's the only pack. And I know you mean the one that's out there now,
there
might have been one out there. Well, there's one on 15th Avenue down close
to the river, but there was no, no way to get there by street, no way to
get there. Buses went down there after we started using buses. But, uh, I
don't know of anything that, that east of Washington in Holywood went
right out in front of the state hospital there on Washington in the field
is out in the field in the end of it, it went out there. So the people
worked at the hospital could walk down there and get on or walk, get out
there and go to the hospital. That's what it's for. And they thought they
build up, you know, what to pay, but they never did. They never got the,
the houses out there, you know, did they always run the little car on the
Holywood line? Yes. At least they had, oh, unless they had to, you know,
uh, had the, like, for instance, all the little cars wouldn't work, but I
don't think they ever did for a long time. Finally they got to use new,
more handbrakes after they got out of the e, sometimes they'd use them and
little ones that wore out just got to find several of them. They had to
throw them away. And when they did, they put them more handbrakes out
there. Ok.
Did they, did they any of those old cars when you first went to work? Did
they have signs that you turned on the lines? No, you take them off and
turn them over, just take them off. East Lake Park and Capitol, the
conductor would take them off before they got the end line. Reach out to
win and take them off and turn them the other way. See, and, uh, uh, East
Lake Park when you was going east, well, the capital would be on the west
end so nobody would get on with thinking it's going backwards. So, but, uh
, and then when you go down to East Lake Park, you, you change and see the
capital put it in front, the other in the East Lake Park behind. That's
when it went down around the loop. Yeah. But otherwise when they changed
it, they didn't have to change them. They had the rollers in the new cars
in the forties, the forties,
they rolled it around to the numbers. When did, when did they start
putting those numbers in the windows? Like 1234 and all that? I know.
Never show a number on the window. Yeah. I don't know what, where they got
that or how come the numbers on the cars? Yeah, I never seen one. I don't
know a thing about them and the lines used to when I was around, you know
, when I wrote them when I was a kid, the, the capital West Adams car had
a number two in the window and a sign that stick in the window that said
number two on it. And the Brill had a sign that says number one, there's a
picture of it. I think I remember that right there. That didn't keep it
too long. I just at the end like that Brill cars got number one in the
window. Oh, yeah, that's the lines, that vision number. Yeah, I forgot
about that. Yeah, they did have it. And I was just kind of wondering, did
they only do that on the new cars or did they ever do that on the old ones
? No, they never did on the newest I know of. And it was so, I remember
now the old ones. But you see, after I worked here first and went to the
army. Well, I come back, I just kind of forgot the past. I don't know, a
lot of things just slipped my mind. I just didn't pay attention to it. In
fact, I didn't like to work but I was, uh, here with the sick sister and I
had to work at something and that's the best I could do in this heat. I
could work inside. But I hated the inside work. I couldn't live inside of
the house. I didn't work. I just didn't like it. So that's why I did it.
And then when I come back, I come back pretty disabled. I only weighed 100
and £34 and I was pretty skin in. Nobody wanted me and newcomer knew me
and he gave me a job. What I was, I was really curious about those, those
numbers in the window because
was number one and the capital West Adams was number two and the
Kenilworth was number three. I remember that. Now it is clear and the
Indian school was number four and I was curious if there were any, if
there was ever any number five, uh, or any, any other numbers that Grand
Bar would have been fired, wouldn't it? I would think so. But I don't know
that, I guess it was, but I just don't, I just barely can remember the
numbers. Now. I it's to come to me that I used to
and they pay attention to numbers because they had the name on the
Washington Street line and in the school line, red line, all that on it.
And I didn't pay attention to that. Sometimes I can do something if I
don't bear it in my mind for a little bit or I'll just slip my mind right
away.
Who ran the, uh, who was usually in the office when you, I mean, when you
first went to work was, uh Mitchell ran it but somebody, newcomer,
newcomer and there was a lady in there and I've seen her not long ago and
I never had spoke to her because it wasn't acquainted with the one but
she's working in the office with Newcomer. Um, right away a month or so
afterwards she left. I don't know if they fired her or not. And they got a
fellow named Philip Hershey clerk called him the clerk. He counted the
money and newcomer counted money. He's a reader and all that stuff. Yeah.
He did the media meters on the Fair Box. Yeah. Well, the cards we had the
numbers on, we had to pull the cord.
They register just like a register in the store. You know, you take that
out your key number and all that stuff. You had the key. My key was nine.
When I went to work, I had to turn it twice but the key and then turned
it twice and make it had a ribbon in there. She printed my number twice
there. Then when I quit, I've done it again twice. And that put my number
at the end of my job. And between that was mine. How much money you were
responsible, how much money I've taken in. I didn't know how much I took
in. I had no idea like I did up because that every trip you turned it
blank and every trip you registered in every trip you turned it blank when
you got down the line. So you could, they could watch you and see how many
persons you had and how many had rang up. What if he was a come out?
Exactly. Even for a month or so that for you. And I finally found out from
Riley Palmer. He said, if you, uh, come out. Exactly. Even he was knocking
down and keeping tab on that figures of putting it down over your register
up there to see how much you had. He said, no man on earth can keep it
exact unless he does it that way. You'll either come out and nickel ahead.
You'll get one and fail to ring it. But you learn it in. See, and you
sometimes read you one too many, a little short and a little over and they
never did correct it that little because they knew it was just one of the
mistakes and maybe you rang one too many and didn't get it, but it was
perfect. It was perfect. For so long they fired you and they didn't tell
you why
they fired. Mhm. Was there a lot of knocking down that went on? Not a lot.
Every once in a while they had one, they called one occasionally. We had
one on Washington Street during World war two. I know
was the garden wore that whole fashion. I took in $91.01 day, 35 cents a
day, one day. Pretty good. Yeah. Five cent fire. And, well, I belong to
the same you and I hate to see him too. I was in the office 23 days after
making my attorney and Jess Hard. He was superintendent. Then he said that
I wanna get some spotters. And you said, I think it's somebody walking
down. Well, I said, Mr Hardy, I think you're doing a wise thing. I
wouldn't tell the man turn him in but I knew they'd get him. Oh, about a
week later. A couple of ladies come in in Los Angeles and I didn't know
anything about them but the ladies or what there was, but I always done it
exactly as I was supposed to do. I didn't care who watched me if, if I was
more clear what I just went on about my work and there's no danger it,
what's gonna bother you if you don't do it? Well, there's two ladies got
on one day down the Second Avenue and handed me a dime each just 10 cent
far then. And I, I said, uh ladies, I'm sorry, but I can't do that. Uh,
you like put your own fire in the box? I couldn't put it in. You know, if
you did, you'd hold a penny and drop it in. That's why they caught this
other guy who was dropping in pennies until the dies, he's breaking it.
But when I come back from the west end, they got on again doing the same
thing and I called him back and made him put, throwing money in the box.
But I didn't know that this pos, after they left I read in the paper was a
couple of pos coming in and got them and they forward this guy, I saw him
sitting in the office waiting for his paycheck. Oh, and they forward it.
Well,
I guess that, you know, they didn't pay very much. Of course, it was
better then, but it was better during the war when the city had it. But
back in the old days you didn't get paid very much. No, not too much. But
you averaged out pretty good. A lot of people had a misconception about it.
I made the 0 65 to 75 a month. And I know a lot of fellows working in the
stores for $35.40
dollars a month clicking in stores. I working in offices making 40 $50 a
month and some of them 35
and I was, I never made less than 60 that on up to 75 could depend, you
work by the hours, you know, how many hours you work is depending on how
much you make. And I went down to Douglas and worked a while while my
sister was down there. She used to, I got the, I made the about $90 a
month there.
What was it like working down there? Fine. They had five or six street car
, six street cars. What kind were they? There was open on the ends and,
you know, well, apart they open one inside, few seats here and then closed
inside and that's pretty good with ours and we'd run him.
Uh, figure eight. Have you ever been to Douglas? No, not in a long time.
It's, it's 10th Street is the main street east and west like this from,
from Grand Avenue. That's the main street, north and south. It did there
by the, uh, Gadson Hotel. Well, it didn't go across, it went across in the
barns, but the street didn't go. And
we run that. We'd start out at the 10th street in the morning, gathering
up our crowd to the smelter. One would go to one smelter and one would go
to the other CN A and Copper Queen. And uh, I'd start out, come out here
to Grand Avenue and I'd take off se uh north, go north to 16th Street and
up to B Avenue and back over to 10th Street and back down to Grand and
take off with the smelters, the oven, go the opposite direction and pick
up here and go with the other SMS. Then I had another, that's all the
lines I had except to after the uh uh
f fair grounds against us. They had two lines. Yeah, three lines. Well, we
had a line to CN A and a line to the Copper Queen. And you go down Grand
Avenue four blocks from the line there at Fourth Street and turn west and
go down to the Copper Queens Melter. Copper Queens Melter set right close
to the border. And then the CN A smelter was on the other side of town
right north of it. You go out by the depot, you know where the old depot
was. Yeah, go right out to the depot course railroad tracks there. Then
you take a little place up there. Doby is long out there. String on the
called P Mexican town. Go out to P and there's three stops there. Pick up
your meel. A lot of smelter around work. Lived out there. They're going
out to the CN A smelter. Wait for the ship to come off and take them back
to town.
Did they run very often or just?
Well, let's see. I know about 20 minutes, 20 minutes service. And the barn
was where, where? Just to, well, we go across 10th street going south,
uh, west, I get in the direction to west and it turned into a barn that
had gone back in there. Not too far back of the Gatson Hotel
around that line, Douglass. That is Jimmy Douglas, uh, on the Smelters.
And, well, he was, he was a stock or big stockholder and, uh, of course,
there was a corporation, New Wall Street Corporation and he owned, he sent
out there to manage it and I guess owned a big Guinness in it. They named
the town after him. And uh you know, his brother, his son, I mean, was
down here at the Tucson. Now le you remember Louis Douglas? They had one
of his artist in Main England. That's his son. The Mexicans are. They used
to see my brother now with their uniforms on and say, uh Senator Douglas
called him Senior Douglas because he
did. You ever, did you ever run the cars down to the depot here in Phoenix
? One time? They only run I think three or four days after I went to work.
Not very long. I know because I just had it one time. All I ever run.
I got my one time I broke in on my was a conductor and uh but I just broke
one day and a half and they needed help. So bad to put me to work. Regular
pay. Never did break ins motor. And one day they marked me up from Mo and
run, they forgot about it and I took all 33 out on Washington Street. Joe
Bush was supervisor at that time. Long in the day, I'm making it all right.
I guess. Uh, up in the day Joe Bush jumped on the car out there at the
Capitol and said, hey, Tex, he always called me Tex. Uh, when, no, I
talked to the director first, got on the back. Didn't come up, hey, t when
you break in on the, on the cars and I said this morning, yeah, he did.
Yeah, he said, I talk to the director back then. He said, once in a while
, you took him up a little and he stopped doing all right. But as good as
any new man, he said, we go down the barn and said, well, go ahead and if
you get along, all right, if you don't uh break in. So I said no more. I
went to Oklahoma City the same way. I, after I come out of the service, I
was skinny, nobody wouldn't harm me. So I went up to the, to them and they
said, well, a man is fit to serve the United States army. He's uh capable
of working for this company. And they sent me over to the doctor for
physical examination. He said, I wonder what the uniform purpose and
overseas stripes and all the paraphernalia. You know, I want to know, I
want a little sympathy. I need to. So I walked in and told him out up to
hand him my papers when we fell out, he said, well, looks to me like
you're able to disturb Uncle Sam. He can serve with ok, home right away.
So, ok, then sitting in the back, I went out to break in, I told the man
that breaking in that, uh, I never had no experience because if I had told
him I'd been experienced, he put me to run it probably before daylight in
the morning. The start when it started out in the winter time, you know.
So he told me everything about it until after daylight could have three
blocks of me. The line. He said, when you take it down and try it, he made
you stop. And when I took it over it just naturally, we started feeding it
up. He stood there and watched me and looked up and looked up and down and
I got a bail. I shut my power off but in the middle of the block and set
my brakes and he stood down there and watched me. I made the perfect stop
by accident. There's a wonder I hadn't have made a joke, but it didn't, it
just come down. It was an ice ire my door open and pass it off. And Dell
two bells come through and I took off and we went back and sit down. I
called him back and said you go to hell, I said, what's part of you? He
said, he told me you never had any spirit. I said, yeah, I had a lot this
morning, we had quite a joke about it, but they wrote him for, to Phoenix
reference and I know they got reference that from here in Douglass book
that I had been on a one man car and conductor and motor and bo I told him
that I didn't want thing that con because it was a strange town and I
couldn't give information. You see, you feel like a fool standing up there.
And people saying, where do I get to go to this place or that place? And
you can't tell them, you know, let people run the car. So one morning I
went in to barn, I was on the extra board that went to, we had what we
call a bean restaurants. You know, there, we're all met there in the
morning, right in the barn yard and where they kept the street guard who I
met that morning and sometimes most of us eat breakfast there. I did but I
didn't have no home. And then we will start holler that men called out a
run or every odd run number, number one and three and five and so on was
moving and runs and all even numbers is conductor runs. We called out a
even number and I said, I can't take that. You can take that. I said No, I
can't, I don't think about conducting. He said that don't make any
difference. I said I haven't got to change. He said, I'll borrow you one.
There's always somebody leaving him in the restaurant. He asked the guy
you got, uh, ch change and he said, yeah, he borrowed it. I said I haven't
got the money. I'll get you some money, borrowed me some money and he need
to connect all BS.
If I said you're responsible for this, what happens today is your fault,
not mine. I'm telling you, I'm not qualified and you say I am. And I said
, I, I'm going on your judgment. I knew how I knew how about it was no
secret. But the information is a big thing with me, but I've learned to
town pretty good. But then I worked to both like to work me death. You got
to work both ways or is he the motor directory
we found out and leave traffic. Uh Weather got to be went out one night.
Well, just the head house is a car. Tried to cross the red road tracks
over the Fourth and the Santa Fe tracks there on East Fourth Street and
got hit by a train and knocked off the turned over street car and the one
man run off and they never did find him. He didn't die but he got scared
and run off. They couldn't look at him. They knew how many is on there.
They want to miss him. I guess he got Negro problem.
That your spirit,
sure. You couldn't see nothing there every night and it was snowing and
they're pouring down rain. Sometimes it's so cold that you could just
dance,
weren't they? Heating? Weren't the cars heated in Oklahoma? Huh? Do they
have any kind of heaters in those? They had heaters that they didn't do
you much good in that kind of weather didn't do you any good. But your
snow, they had little, uh, cold heaters, you put coal in them had little
smoke stack, uh, coming out on top. Good.
You couldn't keep warm by them. You had to be working back and forth. You
had to be going through the car all the time getting off changing trolleys.
It just wasn't the climate I could take, uh, had sinus bad there. So I'll
come back to Phoenix to come right back to the street railway. No, I come
back and went to work at the State Hospital out there. I wasn't physically
fit to do much. And I want to talk to Governor Hunt and asked him if he
had anything easy until I could build up my health. And he said you only
sent out at the state hospital and that they paid $60 a month. Board,
groom and loft. And that's pretty good. It's not a single man could live
on toilet, but they come out to me finally. And the day they come after me
the day before him. And my, another one of my brothers drove in from, uh,
back east and there's two of us working there. My youngest brother, he got
shot up in the army too. Pretty bad. He was working there. So, uh, they
was out of work and Albert had, had worked on a street car before and Ed
and I, he, Ed was, had worked on the street cars in Douglass, but hadn't
worked here. But we had a job going to work. They come out and want us to
go to work on the street cars. We quit out there. So we decided to do it.
They drove in and so I decided to stay there and work at the hospital.
And my other brother worked at the hospital, gave me my job and I would to
take Ed's job on the street cars. I, I work at put those for working. So
pull the ski on them.
They came out looking for you that time. Yeah. Yeah, I got short of help.
They knew what I was at and the newcomer come out and having the
supervisor asked me if I wouldn't go back to work. And I said, well, I'll
go back in a week. I have to give him a week's notice out here. He said,
well, I don't let me for that. I said, I, I just couldn't walk off after
leaving. Give him a week's notice. So we went back to work. I stayed on
until I retired.
The city still owned the system when you retired, didn't it?
I retired. And he said 50. So that would be like two years after the
street car came off.
No, it was it 48 thing? Oh, yeah. Well, I drove a bus about two years. I
started April 1st 1950. And then that fall I went to work the county
hospital engineer out there. And I was there three years. I didn't care
whether it worked much or not. But I just wonder then I left there and I
didn't work for a while. And then I worked for the c when Mike Harlan
worked a year out there, I had to quit for major surgery. I had to pick
his testicle out and go up in here and take all the cords and everything.
I was way up in here and I know it a long time before I could work in the
war. So I just quit. I didn't care. And after that, I
next job was, uh, well, I sat down at home one day and my granddaughter
followed me. He said the one day I was under social security in retirement
and I couldn't make the $100 a month. And that's what they paid down to
Adams Hotel. So, checking in and out the back door. So I went down there
and worked two years. My wife went blind and had to be led around. I had
to have a cystic tumor taken out here and she got over that and I never
did want to work anymore after that. Then she had the cancer in the breast
and five years later it went into the brain. 10 months later, she's gone
when you came back to Phoenix and went to work on the cars. Uh, that was
just before the city took it over, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, I went back
quite a company. Had no, wait a minute. Yeah. 24. They took it over in 25.
Yeah. Yeah, I was working when the city took, things were by that time,
probably in pretty bad shape with the equipment and the track and
everything. Track. Yeah, it was pretty bad shot. They bought bonds right
after that in 29 is when they started the new cars, last ones ahead
and that was a job. Told you had to hold the controller down when you put
that handle around, you had to hold the weight on it. If you let it go up
like that, the air go through it and cut the power off and put your brakes
and stop the car as emergency dead man car, they call it. If you fell dead
, the car stopped to release the front doors wouldn't open, you could push
them over. So, and they had a big top spring and then we finally got them
to take that out. It's better than my arm. It hurts. You better get
through work. I could have all of that pedal they had on the floor, they
had some kind of a foot pedal or that is to put your foot on that pedal
and mash down on that and then you could turn it loose and run if you held
it with your foot. The same as holding it with your hands up here. That's
what for to leave you. So you could turn it loose. Did they ever, did they
ever put any kind of anything except the kind of bell? Just that you, that
you stepped on with your foot in those new cars, any kind of whistles or,
or ringing bells or they just kept the, the same guns that come on. It was
there when they quit. But Douglass, they had overhead bell and I like that
because if there's a car sitting down here on 10th street and I was coming
in and had a transfer of passion, I want to go someplace. I could give him
one rail and he could hear it two or three blocks and hard bell. And he'd
wait. If I didn't have it, I'd give him two signals and he'd go, it wasn't
that easy on the other foot. One. So, no, but the other is they had no way
of signals.
You mean, because you couldn't just hit them once or your signal wouldn't
be loud enough, I'd say to hear it. What kind of signals did you use on
the old cars? Kind of, which signals did the conductor use to old cars? We
used to hold her hand out. The conductor would hold his hand out to the
car in front. The mo would look back to look and, and if you have to hand
out that weight, if you don't like that, go ahead.
They didn't have any bells that they rang inside of. They know what? They
just had the foot bell that rang for the public alarm, you know, for the
general public. And some of them had whistles. No, what the old timers did
, but none, they knew it did. Well, number one had a whistle and we got
that put on there, the one that all the Glendale cars had put some air.
And so, well, let me turn this thing over here.