WEBVTT 00:00:02.869 --> 00:00:04.869 Paolo Soleri talking with graduate students. April 12th 1977 College of 00:00:07.780 --> 00:00:14.816 Architecture, Arizona State University Side one 00:00:14.849 --> 00:00:22.849 in in the use of curve linear forms. Very large, uh, forms responding to 00:00:23.589 --> 00:00:28.556 the sun. Um, which, you know, some of the Pueblo Indians did, and so forth 00:00:28.589 --> 00:00:35.237 , Uh, you can look at them and get a an equilibrium of heat game 00:00:35.270 --> 00:00:39.167 throughout as an overall thing. And one of the things that happens is that 00:00:39.200 --> 00:00:44.036 particular area of of them will be very hot. And another area will be very 00:00:44.069 --> 00:00:47.875 , very cold, you know? And these happen at different times of day, and it 00:00:47.908 --> 00:00:52.536 may not be when you want them particularly. I think that one is that 00:00:52.569 --> 00:00:55.557 naturally you have you have the greenhouse, which would tend to equalise 00:00:55.590 --> 00:01:01.307 that, but the main, the main source of heat will not be there. What you 00:01:01.340 --> 00:01:06.906 get between the two blades or of the sun heating the public is the apron 00:01:06.939 --> 00:01:12.555 that would produce the main frog there. So that would be part of the 00:01:12.588 --> 00:01:17.995 answer. The only that, uh, there are people that, uh, have preferences. 00:01:18.028 --> 00:01:23.096 Uh, not only in the kind of light, but the kind of of when the sun comes 00:01:23.129 --> 00:01:27.915 in and maybe even without some some variations in temperature. Since I, I 00:01:27.948 --> 00:01:32.706 like to have the sunshine in the morning Better be. Maybe other people are 00:01:32.739 --> 00:01:35.665 getting up late in the day. They might like to get the sunshine in the 00:01:35.698 --> 00:01:40.536 evening or not sunshine. So I don't think that that unidentified, even if 00:01:40.569 --> 00:01:45.087 it's an optimal condition, is really desirable one, because then on on 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:49.805 restaurants we tend to go back to this idea that, uh, only the perfect is 00:01:49.838 --> 00:01:54.555 is human, which, which is the the air conditioning, where if if it's not 00:01:54.588 --> 00:02:02.588 81 or 79. Uh, plus, uh, that kind of humidity, you're you're you're in bad 00:02:03.198 --> 00:02:10.745 in bad shape, which is a substantial nonsense because naturally it depends 00:02:10.778 --> 00:02:14.577 on the hour. Depends on the mood. Depends on how the season depends on 00:02:14.610 --> 00:02:18.055 many things. And we tend to obliterate that. And we say that if you're 00:02:18.088 --> 00:02:23.136 alive, that's it. It's this or uh or, uh, you are underprivileged, or you 00:02:23.169 --> 00:02:29.005 are, uh, naughty. Or you are crazy or whatever. Yes, and, uh, so I think 00:02:29.038 --> 00:02:34.987 that variation within limits of I think it might be not only interesting, 00:02:35.020 --> 00:02:38.376 but perhaps desirable 00:02:38.409 --> 00:02:43.555 within that kind of variation, which is desirable for humans. There is a 00:02:43.588 --> 00:02:50.066 more limited range of what's acceptable in terms of, well, not in terms of 00:02:50.099 --> 00:02:54.245 like the heat. You know, the human body won't you know its comfort range 00:02:54.278 --> 00:02:58.207 and so forth. But, you know, how are you moving on the heat? As I was 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.876 saying, the the the main theory would be to let the heat move itself. And 00:03:01.909 --> 00:03:06.047 then within that scheme, which is, in a way simplistic, you might come up 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:11.406 with some sophistication, But, uh, it goes from opening a window to maybe 00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:15.745 turning a switch, possibly less switches to turn and more window to open. 00:03:15.778 --> 00:03:20.536 Something of that kind, uh, again, considering that it might be important 00:03:20.569 --> 00:03:25.737 to to be resensitized to the daily cycles to feel a little chilly in the 00:03:25.770 --> 00:03:31.297 morning might be a very good reminder that the morning I could feel warm 00:03:31.330 --> 00:03:35.225 in the afternoon might be a very important experience. Not that the 00:03:35.258 --> 00:03:41.967 afternoon, uh, it's easier in Arizona than in China. But no, it doesn't 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:46.017 mean that you have to. You have to be cold or hot. It means that, uh, the 00:03:46.050 --> 00:03:52.106 the it's not true that total comfort is it's good for, uh, for feeling 00:03:52.139 --> 00:03:56.916 alive. Total comfort it. It's some kind of a condition where you you you 00:03:56.949 --> 00:04:03.126 forget that you have a body and I don't think that's very good 00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:10.005 because of the body is unforgettable and it's also unforgiving. And if it 00:04:10.038 --> 00:04:15.906 becomes if subsist situation is such that where you become desensitised, 00:04:15.939 --> 00:04:22.046 then the body might respond by saying, Oh, thank you, love. What's my 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:24.757 culture? 00:04:24.790 --> 00:04:31.616 Question related. Just have you've done any work Or are you utilising any 00:04:31.649 --> 00:04:37.055 work related to control of micro climbers, control plants and things like 00:04:37.088 --> 00:04:43.866 that? When you get into the greenhouse, MO. It should be done for you. 00:04:43.899 --> 00:04:47.075 When you're transferring The idea of micro farmers from from the house to 00:04:47.108 --> 00:04:51.296 the community, then evidently you're you're making a step towards 00:04:51.329 --> 00:04:56.947 something which is more complex in many ways, more demanding 00:04:56.980 --> 00:05:02.536 that it's some micro climate. You you know that the the outside climate is 00:05:02.569 --> 00:05:05.645 something that you want to alter 00:05:05.678 --> 00:05:11.026 in relation to the needs of the group and the plants and so on. So I 00:05:11.059 --> 00:05:14.906 didn't even make the crimes. But if you're asking me what we are doing now 00:05:14.939 --> 00:05:19.145 about it. The answer is that we are dealing in generalities because we 00:05:19.178 --> 00:05:23.145 haven't got down to particular. And we were trying to get some money from 00:05:23.178 --> 00:05:26.555 from murder to get done. In particular, 00:05:26.588 --> 00:05:32.187 heard is more interested in in gadgets than in environments. 00:05:32.220 --> 00:05:38.276 And they're so fascinated with a lot of these models and so forth being 00:05:38.309 --> 00:05:43.687 shown look like, quite interesting to see some of the responses related 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.555 wind, tunnels and so forth. Because I think that, you know, they have a 00:05:46.588 --> 00:05:52.166 scale which obviously is going to modify this. We have been trying to see 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:59.145 how we can develop it. I, um I got it from a man in, uh, in Colorado. He 00:05:59.178 --> 00:06:04.596 seems to be the authority. He he did quite a studies for, uh, uh, town 00:06:04.629 --> 00:06:08.305 cities. Uh, renewal. 00:06:08.338 --> 00:06:15.606 So I think he worked on on the on a trade centre in New York or something. 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:23.639 Years of winter and the simulations to the little so And I try to see if 00:06:23.709 --> 00:06:26.776 we can afford them. 00:06:26.809 --> 00:06:31.846 What was the, uh, explain that effect that you had on the swimming pool? 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:33.986 Oh, 00:06:34.019 --> 00:06:39.366 yeah. Well, the swimming pool is 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:46.377 we have a slope, which is, uh, it is uh, east southeast 00:06:46.410 --> 00:06:51.895 on that. And then we have the original question is that we have a shelf, 00:06:51.928 --> 00:06:55.507 and then we have a cliff, 00:06:55.540 --> 00:07:03.540 and this is a OK, uh, what article? Yeah, and a You got a lot of heat. And 00:07:05.170 --> 00:07:09.055 if you touch the rock in the evening, about too many hours is too warm 00:07:09.088 --> 00:07:16.226 even in spring or summer or you in the fall. So what we did, we We cut. We 00:07:16.259 --> 00:07:20.166 cut the swimming pool here. 00:07:20.199 --> 00:07:27.325 It's supposed to be We have some cut here because the structure of the 00:07:27.358 --> 00:07:35.358 so we have we have some here still here, and we built this wall 00:07:35.449 --> 00:07:41.606 and we and we open gates there, here and then we have a bedrock of about, 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:45.325 uh, 1416 inches 00:07:45.358 --> 00:07:52.230 and the bed is carried through here, and so it's going to be on this side. 00:07:52.309 --> 00:07:54.309 And what we are going to do is to, uh, to define here the the beginning of 00:07:57.220 --> 00:08:02.567 the greenhouse. We are certain here, but it's going to be, 00:08:02.600 --> 00:08:05.536 and then the greenhouse. 00:08:05.569 --> 00:08:12.856 So this is the volume of the greenhouse. That would actually be if 00:08:12.889 --> 00:08:20.889 this is gonna be living space. No. This would be cultivation um, food. So 00:08:22.569 --> 00:08:30.569 you you get, you get the sun energy, and it's the chimney effect. 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:36.275 That's good 00:08:36.308 --> 00:08:42.846 of the of the greenhouses to be. Sh and I kind of need, um we have, uh we 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:50.879 have two ways to go, and basically, we one way is a double membrane 00:08:51.070 --> 00:08:55.696 with possibly some kind of, uh, of going in, uh, changing the The 00:08:55.729 --> 00:09:01.706 transparency home is one thing. You know, a journalist has one membrane 00:09:01.739 --> 00:09:08.476 and possibly, uh, movers that can be opened. And we might use that that 00:09:08.509 --> 00:09:11.456 approach. If you use that approach, the moves will be made in the 00:09:11.489 --> 00:09:16.775 insulation material, like Styrofoam. So at night, you can in the winter, 00:09:16.808 --> 00:09:22.885 you can shut the moves, get a fairly good insulation. 00:09:22.918 --> 00:09:27.537 And in the summer that it was not would be shedding. Another thing I was 00:09:27.570 --> 00:09:34.866 thinking about is what determines how high. Ok, Yeah. 00:09:34.899 --> 00:09:40.417 Well, in this case, uh, given this design, uh, the the shelf on which we 00:09:40.450 --> 00:09:45.255 are building as I mentioned. So once you, uh, you decide about the slope 00:09:45.288 --> 00:09:50.177 somehow you are getting you're getting an answer there. No, that's not 00:09:50.210 --> 00:09:56.775 It's not given given to you an absolute answer. But 00:09:56.808 --> 00:10:00.096 you mentioned something about landscaping inside the building that you're 00:10:00.129 --> 00:10:06.625 gonna have on each floor. Different landscapes. Yeah, there are, uh, every 00:10:06.658 --> 00:10:09.826 two or three floors, we have a a fairly sizable area, which would be 00:10:09.859 --> 00:10:16.677 public in Republic. I mean, uh, uh, ways of of communication 00:10:16.710 --> 00:10:23.346 and also offices, or maybe some kind of a family activities like family 00:10:23.379 --> 00:10:31.379 industries from the past to, uh, I don't know, assemblage of the radios or 00:10:33.349 --> 00:10:38.787 things which are tailoring us things of that sort. So those those would be 00:10:38.820 --> 00:10:45.037 some small landscape. Uh, you can have the natural light. Some have. We 00:10:45.070 --> 00:10:50.427 have quite a number of of wells and, uh, a light coming in from different 00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:54.047 directions. 00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:58.116 I know it most. You know, all of your structures 00:10:58.149 --> 00:11:06.149 that we saw designs are above ground, and I imagine to save that amount 00:11:09.599 --> 00:11:14.996 land that we do have. And what are your thoughts on below ground 00:11:15.029 --> 00:11:20.366 or leaving the very negative I I've been connected with the idea of on the 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:24.476 ground for many years. I don't know, but I can guess why. But, uh, it has 00:11:24.509 --> 00:11:28.427 always been wrong because even even the experiments we made in in Scotland 00:11:28.460 --> 00:11:30.456 that they are not on the ground. They will be below grade, which is 00:11:30.489 --> 00:11:35.167 something very different. So we need to to take life and put it on the 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:40.547 ground. I think it's it's scarcely justified. I mean, it's not justified 00:11:40.580 --> 00:11:48.580 Life here and some of the experiments of telling us that there was in in 00:11:49.029 --> 00:11:52.486 Texas, this developer, I think it was a developer. He started building 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.946 underground houses. I don't know if I got they build a few, I think a 00:11:56.979 --> 00:12:00.696 number of feet on the ground. So as far as the, uh, conditioning and the 00:12:00.729 --> 00:12:04.895 common condition was, the answer was pretty good. But then he ended up by 00:12:04.928 --> 00:12:07.895 by having microphones on the highway bringing down the noise of the 00:12:07.928 --> 00:12:13.336 highway. And then he had all this approximate of of, uh, fake sounds, fake 00:12:13.369 --> 00:12:18.476 P patios. Everything was fake because he had to take the environment that 00:12:18.509 --> 00:12:23.787 he abandoned and put it down on the ground. So at that point, uh, the 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:27.986 justification becomes very, very thin. 00:12:28.019 --> 00:12:30.856 So I would say that a number of activities can go on the ground and 00:12:30.889 --> 00:12:36.706 probably they are going to go Scandinavia and in Sweden have been quite a 00:12:36.739 --> 00:12:44.739 while. Uh, but see, I said I would 00:12:46.070 --> 00:12:48.157 I 00:12:48.190 --> 00:12:54.645 and Charlotte. Mom. He said, you know, uh um to spend, um What was wrong 00:12:54.678 --> 00:13:02.206 with it? Well, I, I wish I could do it, but, uh, uh, I had to try to, uh, 00:13:02.239 --> 00:13:07.856 to come up with a design which number one was slightly easier to develop. 00:13:07.889 --> 00:13:14.467 Number two possibly was more, uh, more energy oriented energy. 00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:20.775 And, uh, even though the climate is, uh is not a very harsh climate, it 00:13:20.808 --> 00:13:26.246 can get pretty cold or pretty hot. So the new model, from that point of 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:31.025 view, it's it's more, uh, it works better with that. That model have 00:13:31.058 --> 00:13:35.015 worked better around Phoenix theory that that was yeah, because that model 00:13:35.048 --> 00:13:40.025 was mainly an idea that you you make a leverage umbrella, which is a power 00:13:40.058 --> 00:13:45.287 , and then honour them. Well, you can be all sorts of things, in fact, 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:51.167 that that model as it is as it is in, uh, there would be almost ideal for 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:55.686 a place like San Diego or Los Angeles and so on Where you really need is 00:13:55.719 --> 00:14:00.826 is, uh, an umbrella for the summer sun. But then he had those elements 00:14:00.859 --> 00:14:05.086 which were not working with the sun and so on. But for that climate, uh, 00:14:05.119 --> 00:14:11.265 probably the new market is a small city, but also it would be, um it would 00:14:11.298 --> 00:14:18.936 be, uh, uh slightly easier to develop and stuff 00:14:18.969 --> 00:14:21.657 that's gonna 00:14:21.690 --> 00:14:29.690 well, on the north side of the Pakistani. Like the small greenhouses 00:14:29.928 --> 00:14:34.645 on the north side, there are terraces quite white because the slope is 45 00:14:34.678 --> 00:14:39.116 degrees. So those terrace is with, uh, there. There are only a few that 00:14:39.149 --> 00:14:43.496 are really facing north. They they face, they face north, northeast and 00:14:43.529 --> 00:14:48.186 north Northwest. In fact, Northwest and Northeast, 00:14:48.219 --> 00:14:54.736 right? Well, what I was wondering was, um are they gonna be as well? I 00:14:54.769 --> 00:14:59.307 think the idea would be to have a very, very good, very nice awnings 00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:03.936 because then, uh, in, uh, in the winter, you get you don't get very much 00:15:03.969 --> 00:15:08.145 sunshine, but in the summer, you might get the very warm sunshine in early 00:15:08.178 --> 00:15:11.407 morning and late afternoon, and that's when the would be very good. So you 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:17.047 have a terrace, which is an extension of your living room. And also at 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:25.037 night, I was wondering at night like, um, your energy to like that kind of 00:15:25.070 --> 00:15:31.515 stuff. I was wondering what would happen when thats at night. Uh, well, 00:15:31.548 --> 00:15:37.456 that's that's when you had to count on the hit him in the help of the hit 00:15:37.489 --> 00:15:41.436 so the structure would be would be warmed up during the and then, uh, we 00:15:41.469 --> 00:15:47.476 are trying to decide about some some bedrocks at below the ground level 00:15:47.509 --> 00:15:53.206 floor level, the main more. And we have some hos there, including this 00:15:53.239 --> 00:16:01.196 bedrock open. Like so in the combination of those two elements should, uh 00:16:01.229 --> 00:16:05.566 , should reach the night quite easily. In fact, we we thought that, uh, 00:16:05.599 --> 00:16:09.167 even we we thought there was cons relation to show that that you would 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:17.200 lose 11 degree during, uh uh a night conceiving after a sun sunless day. 00:16:18.288 --> 00:16:22.856 Yeah, you have a You have a in there, which is quite substantial. And 00:16:22.889 --> 00:16:26.427 then, actually, you have only one place which is exposed to the outside 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:32.106 because all the rest is exposed in a in an area, which is, uh, again the 00:16:32.139 --> 00:16:37.946 reason why the the body is more more effective than the surface. If you 00:16:37.979 --> 00:16:43.316 are asking around, you have all those the the the The early exposure is 00:16:43.349 --> 00:16:48.557 much later than if you are to one building, so there's no real need to 00:16:48.590 --> 00:16:54.275 seal up that sign or no, it would be convenient to have a, uh, you know, 00:16:54.308 --> 00:16:57.686 double glass bed if you like. But possibly it would not be necessary. 00:16:57.719 --> 00:17:00.336 Maybe some curtains. 00:17:00.369 --> 00:17:06.416 Oh, when you first started your oncology concept what? What variables you 00:17:06.449 --> 00:17:10.145 just choose to deal with At that time? There must have been something 00:17:10.178 --> 00:17:13.376 disconcerting about architecture at that time that stimulated your 00:17:13.409 --> 00:17:18.246 interest. Well, as I was saying, I was trying to, uh, in my own way to 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.266 work out, uh, 00:17:21.299 --> 00:17:27.305 a system that would not be, uh, giving up too much, uh, of of the of the 00:17:27.338 --> 00:17:35.338 city of the cultural character of that the city has to deliver. But I kept 00:17:35.430 --> 00:17:40.206 I kept some lining up by by finding out that, uh, unless you take care of 00:17:40.239 --> 00:17:45.246 the logistics, you you you have problems. So the logistics eventually told 00:17:45.279 --> 00:17:49.026 me that, uh, having this kind of thing, you have to have this kind of 00:17:49.059 --> 00:17:51.456 thing, 00:17:51.489 --> 00:17:57.065 and energy has become a more important input. Now, energy has been was 00:17:57.098 --> 00:18:00.416 very important then because basically, that's That's where you're saying 00:18:00.449 --> 00:18:04.696 that Consider the difference between the automobile, the single person 00:18:04.729 --> 00:18:10.075 automobile and the elevator, which is most of the time, is a collective 00:18:10.108 --> 00:18:12.867 transportation system, and the the the imbalance between the two, I think 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:18.456 , is very great. The elevator is far more saving, and naturally, then the 00:18:18.489 --> 00:18:23.176 elevator is only part of the process that your your walking ability is the 00:18:23.209 --> 00:18:28.607 basic the basic, uh, device by which you you move things, including 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:35.916 yourself. So you are moving from a from a a a gigantic technology, the 00:18:35.949 --> 00:18:40.607 automobile to my new technology, your legs basically. And that's a 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.967 tremendous difference 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:50.006 is in the new, uh, development of the design of our guante. Is there 00:18:50.039 --> 00:18:53.936 horizontal transportation 00:18:53.969 --> 00:18:58.107 that is so small that we will need some transportation? That's for a few 00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:04.766 people, handicapped older people and babies and other pedestrian malls. 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:12.799 It's It's Ma and the ground floor. It's all circulation among greenery and 00:19:13.469 --> 00:19:17.256 maybe open markets and so on. And then there are many levels in which 00:19:17.289 --> 00:19:22.936 situation is also very substantial. You have the parking. I mean, we have 00:19:22.969 --> 00:19:28.597 a we have parking on the north northwest side, in the designs syndicated 00:19:28.630 --> 00:19:34.387 in the parking. We Yeah, we would like to think that instead of needing, 00:19:34.420 --> 00:19:38.486 uh, a car for, let's say, three person. I know what's the average year you 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:42.026 might need a car for five or six or seven persons. The reason is that 00:19:42.059 --> 00:19:46.785 possibly we would rent the car we need, and we need it. So you would have 00:19:46.818 --> 00:19:49.226 a pool 00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:52.666 and a bunch of two. Is that you? You pick up the car that you need at that 00:19:52.699 --> 00:19:57.035 day, and if it's a small car, you need you pick it up. It's a station 00:19:57.068 --> 00:20:01.676 wagon. You pick it up and so on. But that would cut the size of the of the 00:20:01.709 --> 00:20:06.756 of the car fleet, maybe to one third. 00:20:06.789 --> 00:20:14.236 What would be the I mean, others would be iron ore, uh, altogether again 00:20:14.269 --> 00:20:18.887 if we don't deal with a prototype. Uh, since we are after fugal, the the 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:22.226 justification of it is that it would be cheaper to live to live in that 00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:28.416 kind of, Uh but, uh, we have to come up and see us. Any individual owns 00:20:28.449 --> 00:20:34.555 anything in that you could own to as much as you want to up to the real 00:20:34.588 --> 00:20:38.535 estate. I don't know. But you know, you you have your clothing. You have 00:20:38.568 --> 00:20:44.617 your books. You have your finishing. If that's something you like. 00:20:44.650 --> 00:20:51.006 And if I want to want a car, a car, But 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:56.117 you talk about the construction that's going on now, while the process is 00:20:56.150 --> 00:21:03.196 like different few things. Yeah. Yeah. As you know, we are doing doing 00:21:03.229 --> 00:21:09.946 concrete work. And the concrete is, uh it's a mix of pre casting, casting 00:21:09.979 --> 00:21:16.097 in place, pulling in place assembly 00:21:16.130 --> 00:21:22.055 process. Well, it's well, mainly because we don't We don't have enough 00:21:22.088 --> 00:21:27.756 resources. And also because we are we are not professionals. 00:21:27.789 --> 00:21:32.127 We get away with this, the building officials and they come down and, Oh, 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:34.996 yeah, 00:21:35.029 --> 00:21:40.285 we are under there. 00:21:40.318 --> 00:21:45.347 Do you have a four side of working ground? Did you just go for one? 00:21:45.380 --> 00:21:50.085 Getting more and more and full set of which we didn't have when we were 00:21:50.118 --> 00:21:54.526 building our Kante, That was improvisation. 00:21:54.559 --> 00:22:00.068 But you cannot go, you know, beyond those kind of thing without working. 00:22:00.259 --> 00:22:02.259 What if someone wanted to take up one of your other plans? Do you have 00:22:03.848 --> 00:22:09.835 drawings for those set of drawings? Oh, you mean a lot Ecologist. Yeah. We 00:22:09.868 --> 00:22:13.436 have to start 00:22:13.469 --> 00:22:20.335 to ask a question about, um so, like property is not like, um, proper 00:22:20.368 --> 00:22:24.236 terms of real estate is not not individually owned. It's personal property 00:22:24.269 --> 00:22:30.815 , right? Well, it's not that we we are, uh, dogmatic about it. And that 00:22:30.848 --> 00:22:35.325 comes back. Yeah, 00:22:35.358 --> 00:22:40.156 um, my questions are originally about the physical thing was like, You 00:22:40.189 --> 00:22:44.397 know that that so it speaks like, Well, what I was wondering about like, 00:22:44.430 --> 00:22:51.285 is it like some sort of philosophical basis for, um, going in this 00:22:51.318 --> 00:22:56.867 direction? Of course. Like that part, I just know it. I would say that 00:22:56.900 --> 00:23:00.397 it's even modern philosophical. It's theological, but you see, it's 00:23:00.430 --> 00:23:06.686 connected with the with this notion that there are indications in history. 00:23:06.719 --> 00:23:13.555 And, I mean not just history but pre history evolution that things click 00:23:13.588 --> 00:23:17.026 when they go this way, and they don't click when they go that way. And the 00:23:17.059 --> 00:23:21.637 clicking happens always when, when you move from the simple to the less 00:23:21.670 --> 00:23:26.897 simple. And actually this is resisted this day and age because we we we 00:23:26.930 --> 00:23:31.585 decided that technology is the evil that makes things complicated. But 00:23:31.618 --> 00:23:34.877 technology makes things complicated, not complex, because technology is 00:23:34.910 --> 00:23:38.035 complicated by nature, but it's not complex. In fact, it's another 00:23:38.068 --> 00:23:43.335 simplification, and that's where the trouble comes in, uh, we analyse our 00:23:43.368 --> 00:23:47.137 needs. Then we start to say, unless we have a washing machine, which does 00:23:47.170 --> 00:23:51.946 that we are unhappy and then that that it has to be transferred to 00:23:51.979 --> 00:23:56.535 everything. So you need a gadget for any single little thing that you do. 00:23:56.568 --> 00:24:00.295 But that's simple minded. It's not complex design. Complexity is 00:24:00.328 --> 00:24:05.656 something very different. Complex is the ability to grasp the totality and 00:24:05.689 --> 00:24:09.196 then come out with a with a synthesis. And in that syn, you can use 00:24:09.229 --> 00:24:12.847 technology. But that would be a slight, different technology than what we 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:17.016 are doing now. Most of the time 00:24:17.049 --> 00:24:25.049 we find a couple of half store in pre store. Well, not not a couple, but 00:24:25.239 --> 00:24:29.717 by by the billions. You know, all, uh, if you go through and not that I 00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:32.956 know. But 00:24:32.989 --> 00:24:36.746 other people know if you go through the process from the very beginning, 00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:40.085 you find out that at the beginning you have a very simple minded 00:24:40.118 --> 00:24:46.956 triggering enzymes or whatever you know, so things which are which are 00:24:46.989 --> 00:24:50.776 utterly simple compared to what we have now and then through the 00:24:50.809 --> 00:24:56.217 historical evolution, you see that those very simple creatures constantly 00:24:56.250 --> 00:25:02.857 sought to to become more complex in very strange ways, by mutations by 00:25:02.890 --> 00:25:07.217 accidents and so on, so that you kept moving 00:25:07.250 --> 00:25:11.097 from a from a condition which are very originally very simple. And there 00:25:11.130 --> 00:25:14.676 are still a presence with us because whilst they are here, amoebas were 00:25:14.709 --> 00:25:19.305 there and so on. But the same they have this build up of of conditions 00:25:19.338 --> 00:25:23.627 which are far more lively, far more sensitive, far more responding to 00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:29.627 environmental stresses Got to the point where the mind appears 00:25:29.660 --> 00:25:33.776 so so that that was one of the next thing that you anticipate any kind of 00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:37.065 , uh, potential 00:25:37.098 --> 00:25:44.236 evolutionary things as a result of other evolutionary thing. And 00:25:44.269 --> 00:25:46.897 it's not what we are expecting. We are leaving it, and we have been 00:25:46.930 --> 00:25:54.467 leaving it forever for, uh, 3.5 1000 millions of years. So it's a long 00:25:54.500 --> 00:26:01.627 process. There is nothing, uh, uncertain about it. And, uh, and nothing to 00:26:01.660 --> 00:26:09.285 extravagant number. There is a bloody, uh, momentous, robust, impressive, 00:26:09.318 --> 00:26:14.217 miraculous process. So to to catch that from our mind and say no, that's 00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:18.315 that's wrong. That doesn't exist. That's, uh, that at this point, it's 00:26:18.348 --> 00:26:24.516 slightly ridiculous. It it's really it's not as gigantic step as it seems 00:26:24.549 --> 00:26:32.436 , a tiny little steps. But naturally, when, uh when we appear and we are 00:26:32.469 --> 00:26:36.456 beginning to to to look around and say This is not me, that that is not me 00:26:36.489 --> 00:26:41.565 , that's something else. Then we begin to be conscious of your of your 00:26:41.598 --> 00:26:45.246 envelope or your limitations of your future and so on. At that point, 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.676 things begin to accelerate, at least in the mind of man, if not in the 00:26:48.709 --> 00:26:54.236 performance. So we are living accelerated times. But that doesn't mean 00:26:54.269 --> 00:26:58.647 that we are going to get everything tomorrow morning. It's going to be our 00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:00.676 a painful, 00:27:00.709 --> 00:27:08.285 long but very glorious process. And we are part of it. 00:27:08.318 --> 00:27:14.045 You You said that as far as energy goes, you can do it. It's just gonna go 00:27:14.078 --> 00:27:19.857 as far as, um, agriculture and heating. Right now, what happens if we have 00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:23.887 to go to individual power? Would we have to rebuild this whole system 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:28.026 inside our on earth, are you? Well, in a way, we would we would better 00:27:28.059 --> 00:27:32.686 prepare for it because we we already those conditions which are allowing 00:27:32.719 --> 00:27:38.315 us to survive, you know, without, uh uh a a high percentage of the energy 00:27:38.348 --> 00:27:42.607 that is needed now in other places. And you could add probably to that, uh 00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:48.555 uh, that technology that might produce also electric energy. So I think 00:27:48.588 --> 00:27:54.266 that, um at this point point, it might not be the wisest thing to say, and 00:27:54.299 --> 00:27:59.486 we're going to be 100% self sufficient. If you could say if if in general 00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:05.236 , the the United States could say we're going to be 35% depend not not on 00:28:05.269 --> 00:28:10.446 on capital income, that would be a step. But we think we can do much 00:28:10.479 --> 00:28:14.936 better now. We can probably do 80% or something, something like this up 00:28:14.969 --> 00:28:20.607 north. But in many ways, the further north you go, the more is justified 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:27.926 on the investment of of of going with the, um up to point. At least 00:28:27.959 --> 00:28:32.026 if it gets too cold or too cloudy and so on, then might be the 00:28:32.059 --> 00:28:36.305 justification might be might be 00:28:36.338 --> 00:28:42.476 strong. I was interested in the many of the models that show what appear 00:28:42.509 --> 00:28:49.726 to be very large public spaces and very fully enclosed glazing building 00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:55.726 above or something isn't that kind of opposite of where your philosophy is 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:00.585 going in terms of You know, people in that kind of environment are getting 00:29:00.618 --> 00:29:05.276 farther from nature. In that respect, nature may be outside of it and 00:29:05.309 --> 00:29:11.156 available. But your daily kind of functioning might be artificial. I think 00:29:11.189 --> 00:29:14.107 there is a double answer again. One is that, uh naturally, there are 00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:20.627 conditions which are not very, very, uh, acceptable. Or they are. They are 00:29:20.660 --> 00:29:23.656 quite harsh. And I'm not suggesting that we should live in a high 00:29:23.689 --> 00:29:28.186 commission by choice. And we can temper the house condition without 00:29:28.219 --> 00:29:33.726 getting into this kind of of total. Uh uh, uh, deprivation of all our 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:41.759 senses. So if you have, uh, 10 degrees outside, you might try to get up to 00:29:42.140 --> 00:29:49.377 50 degrees, and then you can, uh you can actively take part of that kind 00:29:49.410 --> 00:29:54.367 of environmental condition. Or if you give you have 100 and 10 outside, 00:29:54.400 --> 00:29:58.555 you might say, Well, let's let it go down to 90 or 80. 00:29:58.588 --> 00:30:04.476 Uh, the the en the journal is that, um 00:30:04.509 --> 00:30:09.246 what what would you you would gain by by containment is that you are in 00:30:09.279 --> 00:30:12.847 such a situation where to get out from the container, it becomes very easy 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.236 , becomes laser because it doesn't cost you anything. You are there and 00:30:18.269 --> 00:30:21.736 you can step out of it. Or if you're in the middle of Phoenix now, you 00:30:21.769 --> 00:30:25.867 cannot step out of it. You have to be privileged enough to own a car. 00:30:25.900 --> 00:30:29.706 Pleased enough to have enough time to to step out of it. So suddenly you 00:30:29.739 --> 00:30:37.236 find out that unless you belong to an elite, you are, uh you are cured. 00:30:37.269 --> 00:30:42.956 It's a functional scale. So yeah, a human scale. The human scale varies, 00:30:42.989 --> 00:30:48.647 but in a way, the ecology negates the possibility it doesn't want to 00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:53.206 become so. If the walking distance becomes a bonus of that, then you have 00:30:53.239 --> 00:30:59.456 to try to reduce the reason I asked the question a few years ago worked on 00:30:59.489 --> 00:31:04.956 some housing for the Arctic, and one of our first concepts was a mass 00:31:04.989 --> 00:31:09.276 collected units. And there was some share common space, and people living 00:31:09.309 --> 00:31:16.847 there were were absolutely opposed to that, that, uh, they would accept it 00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:23.186 to going out in 2535 to 0, which totally amazed us. There was that kind of 00:31:23.219 --> 00:31:28.075 adoption they would between houses, you know, they wanted their shopping 00:31:28.108 --> 00:31:31.795 and clothes that way that they didn't want any of the rest of their life? 00:31:31.828 --> 00:31:34.717 Yes, 00:31:34.750 --> 00:31:40.756 that everything we do is make sense. You know what starts the metropolitan 00:31:40.789 --> 00:31:46.555 area? To move it to where you are now? Nothing, Nothing but the will not 00:31:46.588 --> 00:31:53.946 to, not to to stop it. And I mean the collective will. 00:31:53.979 --> 00:31:58.295 Well, we have. Well, we have 860 acres. And if the if the right of 00:31:58.328 --> 00:32:05.236 ownership still holds, then you can say that we have that buffer 00:32:05.269 --> 00:32:09.647 Court junction may become the next week. 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:17.680 Your physical forms. Uh uh. I enjoy them very much myself, but are they, 00:32:17.838 --> 00:32:25.436 uh is there anything that you can say that? Did you ever study the origins 00:32:25.469 --> 00:32:31.637 of some of those are entirely your own? Is it entirely conceptual? That's 00:32:31.670 --> 00:32:37.256 actually becoming material. Or did you actually study historical patterns 00:32:37.289 --> 00:32:45.176 that some of these forms relate to? Do you have any specific examples that 00:32:45.209 --> 00:32:49.016 when somebody comes up and they see the apps and say, Oh, it looks Roman 00:32:49.049 --> 00:32:54.217 or by which might be true, but it's very ire because the function is so 00:32:54.250 --> 00:32:59.835 different. But, uh, it's that's hard to tell you. I had a back a 00:32:59.868 --> 00:33:05.276 background of finance. If you wanna call it that way. So that means that I 00:33:05.309 --> 00:33:11.147 have to go through a certain experience 00:33:11.180 --> 00:33:17.026 in reading history or also in graphics and so on. So that makes for what 00:33:17.059 --> 00:33:22.035 you might call your personal style, what I call it. But then the other 00:33:22.068 --> 00:33:27.295 writing thing is it's not the style. It's how you How do you use the style 00:33:27.328 --> 00:33:31.137 for what purposes? And in the archology. Even though there are many 00:33:31.170 --> 00:33:38.946 variations, the notion is always one fundamentally contained, uh, reduce, 00:33:38.979 --> 00:33:41.206 minimise 00:33:41.239 --> 00:33:47.107 and and, uh, put money in it. Yes, I there seems to be I noticed the The 00:33:47.140 --> 00:33:52.785 difference seems to be between some of the conceptual ideas which tend to 00:33:52.818 --> 00:33:57.656 be more free flow or something which tend to maybe look like veins or, you 00:33:57.689 --> 00:33:59.906 know, whatever 00:33:59.939 --> 00:34:03.085 just original forms. But then, when you actually get to the model building 00:34:03.118 --> 00:34:06.127 of an actual structure that might need built, I notice that it always 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:10.615 becomes geometric and yeah, well, there is that because, Well, there are 00:34:10.648 --> 00:34:16.396 reasons there which are 11 is that it's fine, and then it will be very 00:34:16.429 --> 00:34:22.546 free on paper, but that doesn't mean to eventually function so very often 00:34:22.579 --> 00:34:27.644 you have to, in a way, slow down or try to do your best. Which is that 00:34:27.677 --> 00:34:32.175 what you desire to do if you have the ability at this point? No. Because I 00:34:32.208 --> 00:34:35.445 find that more and more that the organic is not that the free flow of the 00:34:35.478 --> 00:34:39.956 organic is something quite different. It's the performance 00:34:39.989 --> 00:34:46.247 because, um, when we talk about organic, we usually think in terms of our 00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:49.916 biological system that we would like to translate into a non biological 00:34:49.949 --> 00:34:56.606 system, which is, uh, which is pure, uh, pure, uh, Arbi Arbit. Uh, what do 00:34:56.639 --> 00:35:00.986 you call it? There's not really a justification for that, because one 00:35:01.019 --> 00:35:05.267 thing is a is a living creature that grows and crawls and another thing to 00:35:05.300 --> 00:35:09.365 the final environment, like the architectural environment, which by the 00:35:09.398 --> 00:35:13.905 clinic something quite different. So when you see the design that looks 00:35:13.938 --> 00:35:18.247 like a a crab or what do you say? Don't don't talk about organic. That's 00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:25.026 pseudo organic. Most of the time, we have to investigate what that thing 00:35:25.059 --> 00:35:29.267 delivers and then begin to talk about organic food. So if you take, for 00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:33.905 instance, sometimes the question of that but Kant in the culture, you are 00:35:33.938 --> 00:35:36.885 organic and over there you're not organic. Well, I reverse the thing I 00:35:36.918 --> 00:35:44.577 said in in I'm more or less appealing to the person that thinks in organic. 00:35:44.610 --> 00:35:48.537 But the real organic is going to be there. It's going to be organic 00:35:48.570 --> 00:35:52.595 because it's going to be far more pertinent 00:35:52.628 --> 00:35:57.526 to that to that kind of condition that you feel is going to respond to 00:35:57.559 --> 00:36:02.086 your needs. You have the ability, or if you feel the situation arises 00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:08.506 where you should be organic, you what I mean, is that the the thing that 00:36:08.539 --> 00:36:13.247 looks less organic? Uh uh. Basically, the more organic in terms of, the 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:20.155 more, the more apt and the more lead. So one thing is the appearance and 00:36:20.188 --> 00:36:26.086 the and the copying of the shaking or the the emulation or simulation or 00:36:26.119 --> 00:36:31.186 uh in Germany is really the the the actual delivery. And that the system 00:36:31.219 --> 00:36:34.106 does 00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:39.606 is the attempt at, um, very high quality presentation, drawings and 00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:45.816 everything. Is this to sell your ideas or or I mean, are you very much 00:36:45.849 --> 00:36:49.796 involved in this process of presentation, or is this somebody else that's 00:36:49.829 --> 00:36:55.615 promoting your ideas? I used to. I do less and less of that because of 00:36:55.648 --> 00:37:00.986 time and not of the fall, right? Oh, I. I used to like very much to do 00:37:01.019 --> 00:37:07.666 good presentations because I felt that there was a certain 00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:11.905 necessity, especially if you're in the field of aesthetics, not to 00:37:11.938 --> 00:37:16.247 postpone the process, but to to involve the aesthetic process in whatever 00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:20.845 you do. So if you if you write a page or if you present a a diagram that 00:37:20.878 --> 00:37:27.095 diagram, so at least you at least carry some of the aesthetic impact that 00:37:27.128 --> 00:37:32.756 might be eventually carried on by the next thing. 00:37:32.789 --> 00:37:36.747 Bob's question about the organic. I also were fascinated that way, because 00:37:36.780 --> 00:37:42.956 now we've got the technology to become much freer with our forms than 00:37:42.989 --> 00:37:46.936 direct linear and stuff. The concrete 00:37:46.969 --> 00:37:53.456 phones and all sorts of these things will allow you to build almost what 00:37:53.489 --> 00:37:58.827 you draw it. Let's say this room, for instance, you can say it's pretty 00:37:58.860 --> 00:38:04.626 stiff organic, but let's start to walk this start to get that wall to go 00:38:04.659 --> 00:38:09.595 up this way started to get the coin around that way. Are you really 00:38:09.628 --> 00:38:12.756 getting something which is more organic? My answer is no. Are you doing 00:38:12.789 --> 00:38:17.876 something which is, uh, is trying to do something which 00:38:17.909 --> 00:38:22.026 No, because you're going to bump your head and you're not going to be able 00:38:22.059 --> 00:38:27.595 to put a board, and you're not able to do so. Anything at this room 00:38:27.628 --> 00:38:32.247 can can do for you. So the idea that since we are not made of anger on our 00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:38.186 side surfaces, means that everything has to be like we are, it's a It's a 00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:41.816 poor idea, I'm afraid. And I can tell you because I went through. You know 00:38:41.849 --> 00:38:47.577 , I did quite a bit of that. I'd love to curve things to curve things and 00:38:47.610 --> 00:38:52.467 so on. But slowly you realise that quite a bit of that is is not really 00:38:52.500 --> 00:38:57.307 giving the answer that you you're up to. And once you bump your head 20 00:38:57.340 --> 00:39:05.340 times, I guess, uh, a boat and you start wondering it's maybe a detail 00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:12.376 detail in handling that kind of design. I mean, but I, I would you know, 00:39:12.409 --> 00:39:17.206 I've been in this in a few places that they were defined as organic, and I 00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:24.816 find I find them fanciful or extravagant. But, uh, I I find a problem. 00:39:24.849 --> 00:39:28.557 Maybe because of my you know, our our standard perceptual background and 00:39:28.590 --> 00:39:35.816 expanding that a single foam house. It's really a pleasant environment, 00:39:35.849 --> 00:39:41.057 you know, expanding it to a couple of 1000 of them. Free form quality 00:39:41.090 --> 00:39:48.456 tends to that lead to confusion, but that that brings in the question of 00:39:48.489 --> 00:39:56.489 quality, which is, uh, very often it takes many years to I too get to. And 00:39:57.128 --> 00:40:01.615 it was that there has been such a such an outburst of, uh, doing my own 00:40:01.648 --> 00:40:05.986 thing and doing whatever. Whichever way, I wanted that, uh, quality has 00:40:06.019 --> 00:40:10.977 been going down and down and down and down. And if you want to have a full 00:40:11.010 --> 00:40:15.885 things generally you you look at the scene of very young people do, and 00:40:15.918 --> 00:40:21.436 it's natural you're experimenting. 00:40:21.469 --> 00:40:26.675 You, uh are you opposed to? All right, Roy Rights There is an organic 00:40:26.708 --> 00:40:31.256 architecture or anything that you think? No, I think that he had a He had 00:40:31.289 --> 00:40:36.126 a very powerful notion about organic. Maybe it was limited, but it wasn't. 00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:40.756 You know, the idea that since a, uh uh, a CB looks beautiful, you're 00:40:40.789 --> 00:40:44.497 going to make a crab house, or since, uh, a flower was built, you're going 00:40:44.530 --> 00:40:49.206 to make a PO, which is a flower that wasn't his notion. Organic for him 00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:54.287 was that was the the the nature, the true nature of what he was observing 00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:59.356 and then trying to synthesise to translate that nature not the appearance 00:40:59.389 --> 00:41:04.057 , but the nature of that into into an architectural expression. That's why 00:41:04.090 --> 00:41:09.376 , uh uh, most of organic fail because it it's just copying. You know, I 00:41:09.409 --> 00:41:11.956 the crab is this big. I'm going to make it this big. Naturally, it's a 00:41:11.989 --> 00:41:16.227 novelty. So everybody said, Oh, look at that big crab. Well, after 25 00:41:16.260 --> 00:41:21.586 years that you or maybe after 2025 days, you said, Oh, Jesus, I wish that 00:41:21.619 --> 00:41:25.916 club was there and because the club is something and that that's a that's 00:41:25.949 --> 00:41:31.675 a fake 00:41:31.708 --> 00:41:37.885 But the the the element of novelty is always, uh, is very enticing. So if 00:41:37.918 --> 00:41:43.945 I If I see something this size which has an interesting morphology, and I 00:41:43.978 --> 00:41:49.827 say, Oh, imagine if this was multiplied 100 times and one of one of the 00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:53.467 sculpture does that, What's your name? 00:41:53.500 --> 00:42:00.456 No. Oh, the one that makes a faucet. 25 stories. 00:42:00.489 --> 00:42:07.115 Well, uh, as a as a fantasy or as a as a idiosyncrasies or as a um you 00:42:07.148 --> 00:42:10.865 know, as a celebration of something, it's fine. But when they are going to 00:42:10.898 --> 00:42:15.066 last for 50 years or 100 years and you have thousands of those, then the 00:42:15.099 --> 00:42:20.686 whole civilization might be in trouble. Some of my story what a four F 00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:25.017 function there. 00:42:25.050 --> 00:42:30.445 Those cards, I mean, those things very rarely really are responding well 00:42:30.478 --> 00:42:35.686 to needs. Well, I OK, I can read it too. Then you were talking about the 00:42:35.719 --> 00:42:41.345 vaulted ceiling in in that wall. Well, maybe if the function of that wall 00:42:41.378 --> 00:42:48.037 is to hang a vertical blackboard on it, um, how do the two interact and 00:42:48.070 --> 00:42:53.986 does that? Maybe part of the identity of that wall is the aesthetic or the 00:42:54.019 --> 00:42:58.345 experience of just because it's a negative space and non usable doesn't 00:42:58.378 --> 00:43:02.467 mean that it doesn't have a purpose. I'm not saying that we should build 00:43:02.500 --> 00:43:09.655 this way. I'm saying that we have to be very careful in not confusing the 00:43:09.688 --> 00:43:14.227 What are we talking about? Just to to curve, because that's more organic 00:43:14.260 --> 00:43:19.595 than than to have straight. I it's really nonsensical. But if I am, uh, if 00:43:19.628 --> 00:43:25.385 I am a Brunelleschi or a great architect, then uh, curving might become 00:43:25.418 --> 00:43:31.396 something very, very important. I just could, for the sake of not doing 00:43:31.429 --> 00:43:36.816 straight state is is as is as justifiable as as good. I mean, there's not 00:43:36.849 --> 00:43:41.655 that one is evil. The only the only is good. It's how you how you make use 00:43:41.688 --> 00:43:44.307 of it 00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:52.340 also to the nature of the materials. Yes, but keeping in mind that, um, we 00:43:52.829 --> 00:43:58.666 are transformers and we are manipulators. And we are, uh, small 00:43:58.699 --> 00:44:00.896 recomposing. 00:44:00.929 --> 00:44:08.929 And, uh, there there is a limit beyond which nature materials is hiding. 00:44:11.148 --> 00:44:13.148 Because if you take if you take, um uh uh Or that it might be made into 00:44:15.878 --> 00:44:21.776 you make into iron the iron as a as a certain capacity. And then you say, 00:44:21.809 --> 00:44:24.365 Well, I want to something which is more subtle than iron. So you move into 00:44:24.398 --> 00:44:27.756 steel and you have another kind of capacity. So where where is the natural 00:44:27.789 --> 00:44:33.385 material? Clay that remains clay or clay that becomes aluminium, 00:44:33.418 --> 00:44:38.175 uh, oil that remains oil, oil that that becomes plastics. Uh, you're 00:44:38.208 --> 00:44:46.208 dealing with a very A very, uh, ambiguous natural material situation. Um, 00:44:47.309 --> 00:44:52.477 I don't know that it's that ambiguous in it. Dealing in in the existing 00:44:52.510 --> 00:44:57.467 marketplace. You you're dealing with, you know, not or but you're dealing 00:44:57.500 --> 00:45:00.836 with steel. You're not dealing with oil, but you're dealing with plastics. 00:45:00.869 --> 00:45:04.405 And then if you limit your your dealing at that level, then the plastic 00:45:04.438 --> 00:45:10.217 has certain potentials. Steel has a range of potentials. Would you know 00:45:10.250 --> 00:45:12.936 what I mean? Is that I? I might take that plastic and am I making 00:45:12.969 --> 00:45:17.365 something quite different I can make take good. They might make something 00:45:17.398 --> 00:45:19.747 quite difficult. 00:45:19.780 --> 00:45:26.865 So there isn't, uh, allergic, which is, uh, which is, uh, unbreakable in 00:45:26.898 --> 00:45:30.977 the idea of this natural materials. 00:45:31.010 --> 00:45:34.807 It depends on the date, for instance. 00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:40.175 That's nice. 00:45:40.208 --> 00:45:44.736 Someone asked you if you died with your with your I'm sure I died. I mean 00:45:44.769 --> 00:45:50.227 , not right. But when you die, will you will, uh a so keep going, Is there 00:45:50.260 --> 00:45:55.706 someone that that's like your right hand man who knows how to carry out of 00:45:55.739 --> 00:46:01.135 people that have been with me quite a number of years? But, uh 00:46:01.168 --> 00:46:03.416 uh, 00:46:03.449 --> 00:46:08.316 that that no matter what you do, you you never get the real answer there. 00:46:08.349 --> 00:46:13.327 Th of life is a very good example who could take the place of th of life 00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:17.296 just when I find the right so that you you get one of those people once in 00:46:17.329 --> 00:46:22.646 a while. So what? What should have the foundation? One would be to fall 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:26.675 over and disappear. The journalists should try to carry on the best they 00:46:26.708 --> 00:46:32.787 can with the carry on some ideas of Frank for that, which is what they are 00:46:32.820 --> 00:46:35.477 trying to do. 00:46:35.510 --> 00:46:42.477 So I in a way, it, uh I feel that it's somehow a waste of time to try to, 00:46:42.510 --> 00:46:48.256 to legalise and to structure what's happened after you're not there. 00:46:48.289 --> 00:46:54.175 Because in in a sense that you you carry corrosion beyond your, uh, your 00:46:54.208 --> 00:46:59.155 lifetime, you give orders even when you are there anymore. So I'm not 00:46:59.188 --> 00:47:02.296 talking about that. Well, that's one way of doing it. You know, You you 00:47:02.329 --> 00:47:07.195 dog, You said after my dad this gonna happen. This gonna have this and 00:47:07.228 --> 00:47:12.327 that. And the poor people that are left, they have to obey. The lawyer is 00:47:12.360 --> 00:47:18.467 going to have No, no, you have to do that. You cannot do that. 00:47:18.500 --> 00:47:22.885 You thinking of a whole world of psychology? 00:47:22.918 --> 00:47:29.186 Not not even the same that I the design that you see, uh, that I worked on 00:47:29.219 --> 00:47:35.695 that evidently not that, but in a sense of, uh, of, uh, turning the tide 00:47:35.728 --> 00:47:41.316 of, uh, urban floor and moving back into the idea of the city as a very 00:47:41.349 --> 00:47:45.905 fundamental phenomenon is that an ARCHOLOGY can coexist with a urban 00:47:45.938 --> 00:47:51.566 sprawl. But yeah, 00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:57.827 like we have both. Instead of what? The support that that the idea takes 00:47:57.860 --> 00:48:02.217 hold. Then you would have a long process of transformation from one time 00:48:02.250 --> 00:48:06.256 to the other kind. 00:48:06.289 --> 00:48:10.017 Has your group done any work 00:48:10.050 --> 00:48:14.925 in terms of looking at Los Angeles or Phoenix or Denver or a sprawl city 00:48:14.958 --> 00:48:21.425 in terms of unless you, unless you are asked and some cash comes with the 00:48:21.458 --> 00:48:26.186 demand, we cannot even afford to do what we are doing. Just let alone go 00:48:26.219 --> 00:48:30.115 around it. 00:48:30.148 --> 00:48:36.997 Do you see the, uh, social and political structures about ITS continuing 00:48:37.030 --> 00:48:43.436 in the existing structures in this country today are altering them? 00:48:43.469 --> 00:48:48.997 Well, I think that it is such a reflection of the of the of the ethos of a 00:48:49.030 --> 00:48:57.030 of A of a group of people. So if it's the main drive is materialistic, 00:48:58.699 --> 00:49:04.186 there's not very much choice. If the main drive it becomes to begins to 00:49:04.219 --> 00:49:10.467 alter then evidently there there's the political structure like that is a 00:49:10.500 --> 00:49:17.796 service system for the, for the the feeling of a society. In a way, we got 00:49:17.829 --> 00:49:25.829 exactly what we were asking for 00:49:26.168 --> 00:49:29.115 following the lecture. One of the questions someone asked about the 00:49:29.148 --> 00:49:34.327 relationship, you know, going very high and your answer was related to the 00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:40.227 idea of clustering is something historically is is not new. But there is a 00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:45.026 difference in terms of historically, the cluster was a maximum of two 00:49:45.059 --> 00:49:49.445 stories, maybe three 00:49:49.478 --> 00:49:54.787 eight stories in mud still existing still standing somewhere in Africa. I 00:49:54.820 --> 00:49:59.517 mean, these are very, quite, quite few and rare, but the common situation 00:49:59.550 --> 00:50:03.876 was several stories two or three stories and quite dense. But these were 00:50:03.909 --> 00:50:08.956 also densities that were not as great as we're talking about. They usually 00:50:08.989 --> 00:50:13.856 allowed courtyards for animals and other spaces. Very close relationship 00:50:13.889 --> 00:50:19.916 to the ground and nature. So this is well, 00:50:19.949 --> 00:50:24.135 if you take the you take mediaeval town at least originally, you are right. 00:50:24.168 --> 00:50:28.307 You have a tough. Then you have the houses with a backyard. And actually 00:50:28.340 --> 00:50:32.635 , as soon as you get into the the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, 00:50:32.668 --> 00:50:37.635 you have a much greater cost in much higher densities. And, uh, you can 00:50:37.668 --> 00:50:41.827 say, Well, that wasn't very good. And you're right. That wasn't very good 00:50:41.860 --> 00:50:44.787 for a number of reasons which have probably not to do with caring, but 00:50:44.820 --> 00:50:50.066 with other reasons. Uh, health. Uh uh, difference in economic, uh, 00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:57.467 capacities and, uh, greed, injustice and so on. But, uh, the connection of 00:50:57.500 --> 00:51:01.307 caring with With car has been debunked. I think it is going to be debunked 00:51:01.340 --> 00:51:07.695 more and more. There's a study by There's a book by, uh, Freeman or 00:51:07.728 --> 00:51:11.977 Freeman Carving and behaviour. And I think the library should have it if 00:51:12.010 --> 00:51:17.267 he doesn't have it, because it through through that the studies and 00:51:17.300 --> 00:51:20.307 through those experiments which were being financed by a number of 00:51:20.340 --> 00:51:28.340 foundations, this man was able to to totally un in caring from time. 00:51:29.500 --> 00:51:33.787 And one of the results was that, uh, given a group of people and he was 00:51:33.820 --> 00:51:38.477 experimented with students, a group of people that, uh is very friendly 00:51:38.510 --> 00:51:42.606 terms. The smaller room you put them in for a number of days to work 00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:46.787 together, the greater is the intensity of the Cooper and and the the 00:51:46.820 --> 00:51:52.796 fruitfulness of group. But if the group is, uh is not friendlier from from 00:51:52.829 --> 00:51:56.365 starting, the more you shrink the the space, the more the more tension 00:51:56.398 --> 00:52:02.997 that we build up. So the results are not dependent on on on the crowding. 00:52:03.030 --> 00:52:08.146 It's depending on the nature of the group. In other words, an ideal 00:52:08.179 --> 00:52:13.467 society. You can stand at a tremendous quality because that's that's where 00:52:13.500 --> 00:52:18.526 some of more, uh, more relationships are to develop more social social 00:52:18.559 --> 00:52:24.327 relationships and cultural relationship. If the group is, uh, is poor by 00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:29.106 definition, in terms of or religion this, then, uh, carving becomes a 00:52:29.139 --> 00:52:36.517 problem. It seems that if you go very high and very high density, you have. 00:52:36.550 --> 00:52:41.916 Maybe, you know, there's some point of decreasing returns in terms of to 00:52:41.949 --> 00:52:46.086 create some, you know, psychological sense of connection with nature, the 00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:50.186 addition of gardens and so forth, structurally or physically cost or 00:52:50.219 --> 00:52:54.727 whatever are going to be more difficult to provide to see that the most of 00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:59.546 it of the way to write those is is suburbia. Unless we decide that nature 00:52:59.579 --> 00:53:02.425 is something we want to get rid of it, and suburb is something that we 00:53:02.458 --> 00:53:06.155 want to put in, not because suburbia might might pervade everything, which 00:53:06.188 --> 00:53:10.606 is not true as possible, but because once once you are separated by, let's 00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:13.845 say, five miles away and five miles away and five miles away, you are 00:53:13.878 --> 00:53:18.706 already isolated from nature and what you got you you got a neo Uhse of 00:53:18.739 --> 00:53:22.546 nature, which is your little garden or your little hotel courtyard and so 00:53:22.579 --> 00:53:30.579 on. What I'm talking about is that it's hard for me to accept, either or 00:53:31.449 --> 00:53:36.517 in the argument, the suburb or as the alternative that I think you know 00:53:36.550 --> 00:53:40.997 what you're working at in terms of a sun right now is obviously not 50 or 00:53:41.030 --> 00:53:46.467 100 stories, you know, it's and those that smaller scale, I think, has an 00:53:46.500 --> 00:53:53.327 appeal. I think that and beyond which it's pretty hard for me to. 00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:57.287 But that's the question of scheduling. To say that that's going to be true 00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:01.526 15 generations from now might be a nonsense number one we don't know. But 00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:05.236 number two evolution seems to be going in the other way. Evolution seems 00:54:05.269 --> 00:54:11.376 to be saying that it's not going to be. It's going to be that so there's 00:54:11.409 --> 00:54:18.497 only 11 resource that we have to try to operate. And that's history. 00:54:18.530 --> 00:54:21.626 Beyond that, we don't have anything to work with, I If history tells us 00:54:21.659 --> 00:54:25.057 that that's the direction, then we might as well try to understand why, uh 00:54:25.090 --> 00:54:28.865 , possibly move in that direction. So I would say that the scheduling is 00:54:28.898 --> 00:54:35.717 to be such as not to suddenly transport transport the the pins into a into 00:54:35.750 --> 00:54:40.115 100 3 story building. But that doesn't mean that eventually, the the what 00:54:40.148 --> 00:54:43.595 used to be definitions might not might be in something which is even more 00:54:43.628 --> 00:54:51.146 incredible than that. Yeah, special time time. 00:54:51.179 --> 00:54:54.057 2000 years 00:54:54.090 --> 00:54:58.445 on the 00:54:58.478 --> 00:55:05.517 Do you see that? Uh uh uh, Nan relates to nature, and because of its 00:55:05.550 --> 00:55:12.936 compactness deep, it seems to me like like it relies on a nature, a 00:55:12.969 --> 00:55:17.046 closeness to nature that's not disturbed. So if it was surrounded by a 00:55:17.079 --> 00:55:25.079 suburbia or anything, it would be destroyed for sure, right? Yeah. 00:55:25.208 --> 00:55:31.467 The the animal per SE cannot be cannot be isolated. Uh, the animal needs 00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:35.396 needs a territory. The territory, in this case, it's the the ground that 00:55:35.429 --> 00:55:40.905 has is around it. And the ground cannot become a an habitat like, uh, 00:55:40.938 --> 00:55:45.675 Scotts or, uh south Phoenix or anything, 00:55:45.708 --> 00:55:49.686 because then you defeat one of the purposes of the of the of the animal, 00:55:49.719 --> 00:55:53.706 which is number one, the contrast between the manmade and, uh and what you 00:55:53.739 --> 00:56:00.095 might call the natural number two the effectiveness of the of the of the 00:56:00.128 --> 00:56:07.977 con system less pollution, less energy consumption and all those things. 00:56:08.010 --> 00:56:12.646 So is there a limit to the size that park so could become Well, because 00:56:12.679 --> 00:56:15.747 that is because, uh, because it's on that little edge, as I was saying and 00:56:15.780 --> 00:56:20.497 then once, once you design the structure, you you cannot totally ignore it. 00:56:20.530 --> 00:56:24.615 You have to stay with the with the logic of the structure. That's what I 00:56:24.648 --> 00:56:29.267 was saying. That if suppose you have 5000 people there for a number of 00:56:29.300 --> 00:56:33.267 years or you go up to the 5000 and the the thing is pretty successful 00:56:33.300 --> 00:56:37.916 before you get to the 5000, the the community might decide that another 00:56:37.949 --> 00:56:44.936 might be to be developed. So you just land, uh, 20 miles away or 3000 00:56:44.969 --> 00:56:49.456 miles away or whatever. And, uh, you begin to construct 00:56:49.489 --> 00:56:52.905 the new community, which is a bit organic because it's that's how it 00:56:52.938 --> 00:57:00.026 happens in nature. The the beehive doesn't go on forever. Police are near 00:57:00.059 --> 00:57:05.807 behind, and, uh, the Coyote group doesn't get bigger and bigger. It 00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:09.276 spreads. 00:57:09.309 --> 00:57:14.517 What do you call it? Discreet chaos. 00:57:14.550 --> 00:57:21.546 I know. I just, um let's say that if this system was the new system that 00:57:21.579 --> 00:57:25.885 that was to be taken over, what would happen to the land that Phoenix is 00:57:25.918 --> 00:57:31.356 on and everything else? If Phoenix went into one of these, 00:57:31.389 --> 00:57:34.925 there might be many alternative One is the population in, uh, in Arizona, 00:57:34.958 --> 00:57:39.186 for some reason keeps going up. That would mean that possibly Phoenix, uh 00:57:39.219 --> 00:57:43.155 , the other that now contains Phoenix could contain double the population 00:57:43.188 --> 00:57:47.776 of phoenix. But, uh, instead of being, uh, uh to completely paid over or 00:57:47.809 --> 00:57:53.456 completely built, it might be, uh, two or three isolated systems with lots 00:57:53.489 --> 00:58:00.497 of garden garden so on and so on. But what to do this now? Existing thing. 00:58:00.530 --> 00:58:07.186 You know, things. Things, uh, evolve. Things appear and things disappear. 00:58:07.219 --> 00:58:12.936 Where was Babylon? Uh, 1000 years ago. There is dust now. Uh, where was, 00:58:12.969 --> 00:58:18.727 uh, I don't know. The the Indian dwell dwellers. Not the Indian town. 00:58:18.760 --> 00:58:22.296 There is some ruins. Town 00:58:22.329 --> 00:58:26.845 Detroit, 77 C seven C. 00:58:26.878 --> 00:58:33.385 So it would be important to be able to have a a movie made on the how New 00:58:33.418 --> 00:58:35.807 York 00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:40.135 went through its own cycle or how Phoenix developed. So in a few minutes, 00:58:40.168 --> 00:58:44.206 you see what took, uh, 23 generations ago and then you see the the 00:58:44.239 --> 00:58:51.017 incredible dynamics which are involved in in, uh, this continues changing 00:58:51.050 --> 00:58:55.876 that life is because otherwise we we get a feeling that since Van Buren 00:58:55.909 --> 00:58:58.727 and Washington are there, Van Buren and Washington is going to be there 00:58:58.760 --> 00:59:01.796 forever. 00:59:01.829 --> 00:59:06.126 They're not going to be there forever. I can't guarantee that if if 00:59:06.159 --> 00:59:09.655 something is going to be very sure is that Washington and and Bermuda are 00:59:09.688 --> 00:59:13.977 going to be no further. 00:59:14.010 --> 00:59:20.506 One of the really difficult design problems of a large scale system is is 00:59:20.539 --> 00:59:27.695 not to design in too much. You know, the reason that vernacular groups of 00:59:27.728 --> 00:59:31.126 housings are really interesting is that they've accumulated over time, and 00:59:31.159 --> 00:59:34.557 there's there's interest and so forth. It's very difficult to actually try 00:59:34.590 --> 00:59:39.865 to design and happen because of changing needs. And isn't that a problem 00:59:39.898 --> 00:59:43.175 if you try to design too much on? But there's not the face of the problem 00:59:43.208 --> 00:59:51.135 , which is the power If we, uh if we really keep smiling that nothing can 00:59:51.168 --> 00:59:55.345 be designed because nothing is going to be LA lasting, then we'll we'll be 00:59:55.378 --> 01:00:01.077 sitting forever on, uh, what do you call it on meeting? 01:00:01.110 --> 01:00:07.206 Yeah, Chairman of the boards or whatever. You know, endless discussions, 01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:12.776 endless piles of of material research. 01:00:12.809 --> 01:00:20.809 Uh, yeah, theoretical papers, uh, analysis, archives, pool of things and 01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:27.686 very little happening. So the least the the more and more we we feel that 01:00:27.719 --> 01:00:31.767 that's the way to go. The the more timid and the more cowardly we are 01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:38.006 becoming in our in our actual within your within your culture how we allow 01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:45.526 for those variations in design. So you, uh, you really make a a quite a 01:00:45.559 --> 01:00:51.077 firm statement. We are interested in environmental degradation. We are 01:00:51.110 --> 01:00:57.195 interested in segregation to be dispelled. Somehow we want to save energy. 01:00:57.228 --> 01:01:00.486 We want to save materials. We want to be able to feed ourselves and see 01:01:00.519 --> 01:01:05.929 where where the the crops are growing and maybe help themgrow