works. It doesn't work that way.
And a bit of light and a bit of proteins and can be very carefully and
balance.
That's gonna wait for that.
Since your identification of frugality potentially could be one of those
disciplines. Are there any other ones that seem evident?
Well, I think that the problem with the with the in society is always
mediocrity in me. It is not everybody. We are all limited in our capacity
and in our understanding, designers
in in the the fact that you are giving up uh, the, uh
we do not have any reverential notion about the importance of being alive.
So we came up consciously on point. We just float around.
I think when
society is in that state of mind, there isn't very much
who haven't used the word energy much,
especially this evening. Don't you see that as a certain
imperative? At least at the moment, which may have some great potential in
terms of
enhancing or alternatively, detracting from these evolutionary processes.
But if if we take the son, uh, another one of those resources that we can
plug at
with which through gradually, we're going to build our comfort But I don't
think that that the area of society has changed. We are still consumers
after something. It's it's very questionable if you take the son not only
as a P but as a very powerful S for Father, which our mother, because
that's what it is. Basically, then, uh, we go about using this energy with
the ocean, which is more expanded,
more transcendent.
My objection to the simple act as such, is that it might do a good job in
some water, but it tends to perpetuate
what is very much the the Western world, which is to be very able at
isolating problems and then try to come up with answers.
And now we know that those answers are true answers because it's he said,
that you kill it, that we can get from some of that. It's a fundamental
thing. It's something else, and we relate to that FM in very peculiar ways
, and through those peculiar ways, we might begin to have a a little more
of a cosmic notion of what it might be
in for. So the the connection of it utilitarian aspect, the other aspect,
each other, in a way,
do you have any particular projections as what might happen to the society
in the next 50 years as it relates to
present, uh, conventions about energy and, well, it seems to me that the
the selling
the foot is somehow good. Maybe I might be wrong, but I know
in part because that usually when when you have a new technology, you
default, so that makes people know your mind getting involved with it. But
in in part, I think. And basically I think because we feel
very democratically oriented and if we if we know that there is still kind
of oil available and a bit of gas available kind of coal available. And we
know that science is, uh,
for Magic
Temple Magic. But we we tend to be
less inclined for what somebody calls it. The soft technology and the
appropriate technology. And so on
you you haven't identified any of the the other so called alternative
energy plans.
Well, yeah, the the the great debate about, uh, about atomic, uh, two
nutrition or fusion or whatever it is. I think we say it's a very timely
debate because we we we are. There are tremendous risks involved with it
to to speak up. That was in no natural. It's a it's a it's a joke. The
song appears at first,
so the Atomic Fe fe was was there should be a year before they invented to
do a colon, which is a colon zone.
But naturally, uh uh since we are, we are young at at developing things
you never miss a lot of time yet, OK, H
so I I don't have protection with many principles. I have objections in
terms of the point who are going to be refer to to have a safe
atomic. Sorry. Do you have views on any of the other? Uh, so said I'm not
an engineer or a scientist, So I would put my feeding into my mouth
concentrate
the face of the the the the notion that seems to have some windy hours
other than I think we should make use of the wind. I think it's something
we don't have enough wind to very much. Five E
Put some energy in some batteries for to
Once again,
there are so many investigations.
Disease
was
do touch already.
What sort of optimism do you have about the next 50 years
from the front of you, Do you? Yes. And how? How? Whatever those energy
sources might relate.
Consumerism in
many ways
a Southern realisation and a Southern reality which said that glass is
going to be limited. I think it would be very good. It breaks our magic
that they did because it would remind us that you know that we have been
taken might be not very realistic. Might be very practical ways for a
minority. And it's not that I
mhm
this continues possible about the standard of reading such a so things if
you're if you're if you're from Kolkata or
to people
Um,
what sort of directions do you see? Your own Most telling experiment going
namely art design
in terms of growth, evolution, development.
Well, at this point, I, uh I'm suggesting a, uh a change of tactics, if
not STS the changes that we don't see in the community or inside a large
or interest in what we are trying to do by community. You mean the country.
So
So I'm thinking of trying to push for for what I call a critical mass on
the site, which would
this demand
and the the mass would be the setting up of what I call the therapy. So
community, which is what we have for many times as we have
and then developed
activities and events which would make a site, uh, very, very appealing
yes, for 2000 to be town to be investments. I'm not done. At that point,
it will become to us as a matter the book and the other time twist up so
on the side of the
for this pressure. But in effect, isn't that a reversal earlier position
learning to have There is a structure for the performance. But we are
doing that, though, because
we have to. We started with not in the and I decided that it would be a
town, that
the emotion that you put something there and then this something work full.
So that's what we are doing year by year. We are doing something and see
that.
So I think when it's cereal, it's a, uh it's going about the the by. Going
through certain follows certain
devices which might might might make to go, not physical.
Do you have any idea what that critical mass is in terms of numbers of
people.
What am I working out? No, it's It's a one which would, uh, include the
pre five
you should do. But it will kill people because the facilities would be
mainly no one of the equivalent of a residence, but the equivalent of a
space
for the
and that's
you cause some explanation. But, uh,
it would be for for a number of trans people in the world, and then it
would two elements that I'm trying to push for now is a combination.
It's an umbrella which is a monastic.
And then on this, that there will be a screw of architectural landscaping
, design and so on, which could be in this environment for frugality.
And then this architectural and landscape also schooling. That would be a
training
for the skills of conception. So there will be trains, learning, trades,
students,
architecture, and there would be both of them under this within this
environment, a domestic
and you see them as key elements in achieving a critical mass. Yeah, And
then beside that, we have we had to design, uh, what we call the the
introduction of the arts performing arts media. And
so those elements of this process.
The integration of
we studied politics through the media,
we would achieve a very lively setting.
In effect, you see that a component which is one which is introvert and
the other, which is extroverted.
Yeah, yes and no. Because, uh, number one I don't see the monasticism. As
as the deal was traditionally could be like this se ashes is basically is
a good way of, of sort of suggesting
ways. The ways of learning about
OK
and that is a very important example and specifically very important for
will be out of this or the blessed people which are responsible for the
designing of the women. A. But I think it's
you don't sense any conflict between, um the discipline that's implied in
frugality,
the concepts
that complexity
No. In fact,
if you take the aesthetic process, for instance, and very keep and I think
it's pretty good, you find out that, uh,
what distinguishes the the art object is that its name with almost nothing
, and it has a tremendous power.
So we are dealing with the with the most economic and it was
location See,
which tells me that ultimately what we are looking at is not a a a
cosmogenesis but a mele Genesis because that's where the other economy
it becomes very, very good and pleasant. It took over. One
was of the people. There's better in terms of of the common wealth. Give
it to another spot,
even for for a consumer society. I was I was trying to think about how you
can equate, uh, a piece by in terms of come out with brilliant of you come
out with just
$2. How do you, um,
how do you conceive of what you're doing? Um, both in terms of ideas and
also demonstration within a larger frame of context.
But evidently what we are doing is in many ways is it's ridiculous
because it's very, very small.
It's, uh, it's very limited
to equality.
But that doesn't disturb me that much because, uh, I'm thinking what we
are doing more in terms of our match or some kind of yeast more than the
actual thing. So
mhm and triggering is the important thing. It's not so much D
and like the essence of tribute. Maybe not the essence of cigarettes to be
very, very good. It used to be great, but that might be breed into into a
very funny kind of skin. I'm always thinking of of being in a somewhere in
the garage and trying to build a flying machine,
so it's a ridiculous in the paper. This happened. Sometimes the machines
would fly, so the next step is to make a machine.
But for
great.
So not not the size, Not not, not the impact in terms of what the economy
of the region or you wanna call it until you are investigating might be
there is the possibility of triggering.
Have we had any encouragement or evidence that there is any possibility of
his mother?
Well, as I was saying, my evidence is that that society is really serious
to be interested in what they're doing at the moment.
But we we had some kind of a breakthrough, and it is small in the in the
church, communities in the religious community, the media community and
the artist community. Those are the ones that I have responded.
And that's the reason why I I tend not to believe that we should try to
cater to to needs of those communities and then engage the mass for this,
and it's It's not It's not a mean. It's like a coincidence of means. And
then so I I feel fairly good at all.
Um, but your contact with those communities has been very much within an
American.
Mhm.
Oh, see, it's a big nation. It's a big nation. Yeah,
and that there are indications that, uh,
the interest for for the for the arts is it still building up?
I
what? What particular relevance Do you think that these directions have,
though, for, let's say, people in India.
Well, as I was saying, if we could come up over there with approval
community, but very rich in terms of experience and that's what they have
already with in India. Yeah, but we don't have it here. And we are. We are
the ones that know that 50 of yours who have Children. I mean, none of my
child could make it. So we need we need to demonstrate to ourselves that,
uh, we can take lessons.
So, uh, from other approaches.
So to to help the the under, whatever to under consumers,
the best thing we can do is is to is to is my value
of social
in our cultural and economic
go from there.
What they have in India is basically the privation,
and they do they do it well within. OK, the weapons
and 32.
Best of you two,
as the we are now celebrating the the fifth anniversary of the Arab oil
embargo
has that little event. You changed your lifestyle.
Mm. Yeah. I don't know, because I, uh But I think I've always been used to
try to to make use of the of the sun.
I like it, but quite evidently, when the the Bible came, I turned around
and I tried to think of him, and I had left him away. Good.
So it might have triggered in my mind other colleges and Ono,
but in effect, it was a return to some level work that you've done in
terms of your personal life. Didn't happen in a second.
Well, we had a We never had an eight cylinder or 16 cylinder.
I think that, uh, personally I genetically I think I'm I'm very
And how do you think so? There wasn't any effort.
Do you think that it has changed you at all? Spiritually
you turn ideas.
Well, I, I don't know I by by trying to think about the nature of of
reality and the nature of energy and so on. I came up with some ideas
which I think are pretty good. Yeah,
someone clustered about clustered about this this notion of
this process
Because I I need to find a reason.
And I better find a reason which is very, very important. Not just a
Would you like to define
theological process. It's a word that not everyone hears. Pathology means
, uh, the investigation about ultimate attempt or something like that
or the It's the ultimate question. Yeah, but I have my question maybe.
What? Why did God create us with? I answer that God doesn't create us. We
create God, not creative di equivalent, the equivalent of S.
So,
as I was saying, my notion of, uh of theology or of religiosity is the
opposite of the notion of the most of the churches
are not
creatures fall from grace. We are creatures trying to grow
work for you recently as question
It, uh
if if I see her as as very important.
So what we call justice
to
will be your this, uh, that we pursue.
I actually really serious about it,
OK, Since those things do exist, they exist only in very, very pragmatic
way in very limited ways. You are trying to to imagine or to invent or to
simulate form the model that suggests to me that there are ways or that
there is the possibility for us to participate in a in a progression that
, in my opinion, about just you also.
And at this point, I. I found it totally. He was in to say that the past
has been unjust. But if we can only be just from now on, we got the
problem solved. I think you need that justice. Then there's no way that I
tell you your the task
when we talk about absolute, it absolutely is absolute. The past is part
of it. The capacity is is part of it. We have to find some kind of a
guideline or some kind of a model that tells us that the past is going to
be pleasant again some. And that's why this this idea of the or the
consumption of the of the department of time sort of when all time is
consumed means that all the past is present. And I called that this
election
for
and all In that case, we will then be able to talk about justice
and days it on. Before that, we can talk, talk about partial
for this justice. And
those are really very bold ambitions for someone who starts off by trying
to design buildings.
Well, it's not the mission of doing anything about it. I I'm, you know,
with the rest of the world.
Um, I think every person needs needs to have some kind of a guideline. And
, uh, the guideline is the model that you you build on your own so that
you can, uh, sorry to be good, but the model.
OK, sure. I'm more than the other in a state of drift. This
so it's not the the very discipline of the model. It's not the truth of
the model. It's important. I think. I think what's important is that the
capacity of the model to suggest to you a possible resolution. So they
were saying I left the cuddling and and the, uh, and anticipation for some.
So that's what the there is. Mine does
depends to call it a revolution, but it's really an anticipation. It's an
invention of needs. Sub group the means of communication
that you had mentioned in your, uh, possible plans for quao the inclusion
of
of a screw or whatever for our pets and and building designs.
What would distinguish that from the other tell that's that's a good
question, because I I'm not, uh I wouldn't be able to do it much faster.
Is that down on my picture?
OK, well, I would like to to go, uh, more knowledgeable about those things
and get them to look at it. But what? What I think would be very important
is, uh, number one to connect the total with the vehicle. So the training
of people involved in the construction and in parallel with any conduction
concerning of the designs of the tuition politicians, I think very
important. In addition, as I was saying, I would like to to develop those
activities of a need which is still flexible first to me, those activities
of the demotion
of a different approach than the consumer approach. And I think around a
lot of arm and affect this country 20,000,
and there might be like 1% and maybe they've seen.
But I can use this. I see that as the best.
But I, I don't know that it has to clean up my school.
But yet, if there were one associated with a and it would in some strong
way be closely attached to some of your ideas Yeah, nothing. But also the
the idea of being in the churches and religious
levels.
I see it as a very important and get to he was it?
And I think the dialogue will because people
to So there are many facets to this idea. It's not just that you you write
,
but there still is about more than that.
Put him on. OK,
um, that that was good. Um
and,
um,
just just relating this this
issue for design of buildings. Mhm. But you I, I suspect you see a fairly
clear evolution in your own mind. Were development from a stage in which
you talked about biotechnics
approach to design buildings.
Well, I don't know if I
you know people are coming out and say, Well, this is organic
and then they look at the model of what it is not organic. I think that's
taking appearances for for substance because, um,
if if this means that the suburban no,
if this supports the spell around, I would say this is inorganic because
it doesn't respond to the organic needs of society. He started to me that
I was
very
things within the design. And then I would say That's not my instinct.
What do you mean organically mean? So when I'm told that this organic
that's organic, I said, Well, we are missing the point.
I'm the same
That is much more organic because it tries to respond to the really to the
urbanism of society and possibly something else. So you would give that as
a kind of a definition of organic, this ability to respond? Yeah, and I
don't think that Frank and I was very far from there. I think he meant
something mhm and and that's all. But But then the young, the young
students began to
photographs of leaves or crabs, or and he said, Well, this is organic. So
what I'm going to do is to design something which reminds me of a crab or
a the tell us. Well, that's the way to go about
are organic.
Everyone have questions. Was gonna say, Do some of you have some questions
you like? Yeah, I have
from your thing here. You also mentioned it later on about your concept of
time and find time.
I don't quite understand. Uh, you say that eventually, uh, all time will
be compressed and will exist at once. So it seems that in that sense, the
present is also existing at that time, So there really is no time as such.
And so you kind of a game thing in which time zone that we view but in
reality didn't exist. No, no. In fact, my contention is that time is such
a part of reality that unless we take it into consideration, we with no
reality
uh so time is the only way by which change is happened. Because time is
changed. An unchangeable, phenomenal, phenomenal phenomenon is out of time
is timeless. And in a way, there are two ways of conceiving timelessness.
One is the anthropic, the final anthropic still
or the ultimate the transformation of the physical into the metaphysical
into robots into the notion of divinity.
But for both cases, you need process and process is a timely phenomenon.
Yeah, but in the end, the already stopped because what you do, we're part
of it is something which is which is timeless and already exist and
everything. But now in the future, where we view it already exists. So
actually time is always something that we view and not something that not
only reality, except that in one way that I try to present a different
kind of metaphors. You know, reality. One metaphor is that reality is Is
that question When I scrambled
tourism, one is scrambled. So what we are doing in any kind of existence,
try to unscramble the puzzles of the image will appear, but the image
exists, but we are not able to put it together or else the image exists.
But it is very by ignorance. So we have to get the best of so in those two
cases, time is not really existing. Time is the way. It is a metaphor for
what is happening now. So God is cleaning up the
and scrambling the scrambling because of
but the puzzle exists. Reality has been there forever, and the fundamental
is unchangeable. So time is just uh, it's not real, but my notion is
different. My notion is that since the future is non existent,
time is the element by which the future is created.
So so the present is the urge of reality. Beyond that, age is naughtiness
the challenges.
So the creation of process is to to edge into this not not by the creation
of process and eventually through the consumption of the media, which is
mass to space, mass time space. We exhaust the possibility of change,
which means we turn the the determination of time means that what has been
before he somehow collapse due to this last instance.
Otherwise, you don't have a consumption of time. You have an exhaustion.
Time has to be dating. It has happened before, has to be present in order
for time to have justice through existing time. You're just adding on to
two things which we are creating, creating and accumulating all we are
already beginning to to technology again, to at least call. We need to
recall the sounds with the images, the register, thoughts, books, and so
on. So there is an idea of evidence that we are beginning to reach back
and prove, but we are putting our only exceptions from the past. But, uh,
somehow the past is not fed the way it exists. It's just but it's it's
barricaded somehow to the way because of this time sequence. Well, if this
time sequence exhausts itself, then the barricades collapses
and timelessness comes in.
Uh, as far as, uh, evolution goes,
um, first you speak of, you know, the well in your mind the big bang and a
certain process of evolution towards consciousness. Do you think one
consciousness comes into existence? Then it's through consciousness. That
evolution continues. In other words, would you say that now that man is
conscious and starts having an effect on the world that, uh, evolution as
far as you know, uh, physical, physical, uh, season. It doesn't cease
because, uh, even now, even though we are the
species of New York, we are still living with with everything else which
is
to produce. But, uh, What the appearance of consciousness has done is to
to begin to question and to begin to participate. So while this creature
lives only in the present moment after moment, I we have in the past in
the future because, I, I have a mind, and the mind cannot
to refrain
from, uh, projecting into what has been and projecting what will be. So I
bring me all that tomorrow morning, I'm going to do this and this and this
and you know, then you not. I'm going to do this. This and this unless
catastrophe comes about. So I am not only anticipating, I'm already
leaving.
And once once you have that kind of animal existing, then it cannot avoid
to interfere or to inject its own wheel into the evolutionary process. Do
you? You, uh, you mentioned at one time that you talked. A bit of you saw
the your role kind of is creating, uh, possible alternatives. Do you Do
you see that as kind of, uh, the role of men in evolution create
possibilities, which then, But we'll be there in the process of not being
, uh, abandoned. Yeah, the the the scheming mind is a very risky
instrument.
And so, in a way, the more we move into into me or whatever you call it,
the more the risk of, uh, of doing the wrong thing is going to be there,
which is again part of the of the unavoidable anguish that we are in. But
, uh, you can't. There is no way by which you can say no. We are not going
to do that. We are going to behave. We are going to be the students of
what exists.