WEBVTT 00:00:19.969 --> 00:00:21.969 Good evening. Welcome to this Tuesday edition of Horizon. I'm Michael 00:00:23.329 --> 00:00:26.986 Grant. There is controversy brewing in California. We will take a look at 00:00:27.019 --> 00:00:30.977 its proposed cuts in insurance rates and discuss why that movement might 00:00:31.010 --> 00:00:34.726 very well find its way to Arizona. Jana Boomers Bach will be along with 00:00:34.759 --> 00:00:39.356 her annual Turkey Awards and we will take you to some ancient ruins in the 00:00:39.389 --> 00:00:44.417 globe, Miami area. But first consumer revolt in California targeted the 00:00:44.450 --> 00:00:49.057 insurance industry. This year. Voters passed proposition 103 which 00:00:49.090 --> 00:00:52.777 mandates a roll back of insurance rates. However, it is currently stalled 00:00:52.810 --> 00:00:56.426 in the California Supreme Court where it is facing legal challenges. 00:00:56.459 --> 00:01:00.606 Legislators and insurance industry officials here in Arizona are closely 00:01:00.639 --> 00:01:04.212 tracking the controversial California initiative because cut rate 00:01:04.245 --> 00:01:08.540 insurance movement might very well make its way here. Joining me to 00:01:08.573 --> 00:01:12.411 discuss what effects proposition 103 may have on the insurance industry 00:01:12.444 --> 00:01:16.421 here in our state are representative Peter, good enough of Tucson who is 00:01:16.454 --> 00:01:20.712 in favor of a rate cut. And Mike Lowe, former head of Arizona's Department 00:01:20.745 --> 00:01:25.010 of Insurance now representing the state's insurance companies. But first 00:01:25.043 --> 00:01:28.257 we have this background report, 00:01:28.290 --> 00:01:32.967 California is the land of extremes and some people call it a bellwether 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:37.286 for new trends. Now, California voters have narrowly approved the 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:41.816 controversial proposition 103 which would force insurance companies to 00:01:41.849 --> 00:01:46.257 greatly reduce their rates. The proposition supported by Ralph Nader and 00:01:46.290 --> 00:01:50.596 various consumer organizations was introduced by a group called Voters 00:01:50.629 --> 00:01:55.346 Revolt man who wrote Proposition one oh three is with us, Harvey 00:01:55.379 --> 00:01:59.576 Rosenfield. Glad to have you with us. Harvey. Same here. So what will 00:01:59.609 --> 00:02:04.296 proposition one oh three do once? It is ok by the California Supreme Court. 00:02:04.329 --> 00:02:08.036 First of all, it's immediate refund justice after years of being ripped 00:02:08.069 --> 00:02:11.686 off by the insurance companies prop one oh three will lower all rates for 00:02:11.719 --> 00:02:17.177 auto homeowner business nonprofit municipality. 20% of what they were in 00:02:17.210 --> 00:02:21.475 November 1987. So it's retroactive if retroactive cuts back all those 00:02:21.508 --> 00:02:26.896 increases in 1988 then takes another 20% off what the rates were in 1987. 00:02:26.929 --> 00:02:30.646 Insurers have threatened to pull out of California and California 00:02:30.679 --> 00:02:34.396 legislators have threatened to find them if they do. The insurance 00:02:34.429 --> 00:02:40.207 companies say they can't do business under 103 13 by itself, we think 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:46.696 would produce an annual loss of $500 million. Currently, we expect to lose 00:02:46.729 --> 00:02:54.177 400 million without proposition 103. Currently, Proposition 103 is stalled 00:02:54.210 --> 00:02:58.207 in the California Supreme Court. It is being watched carefully here in 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:01.967 Arizona. However, where the state had already formed an official study 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:07.166 commission to investigate Arizona's automobile insurance rates. Asu's 00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:11.967 Wilson is on that commission. Well, in the last three years, the best 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:17.396 estimate is that they see the rates seem to have increased by about 85%. 00:03:17.429 --> 00:03:22.927 We are thought to have about the fifth highest insurance rates in the 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:27.017 nation. Legislation aimed at controlling automobile insurance was 00:03:27.050 --> 00:03:32.207 introduced last year but died. Will the issue be back again this year? The 00:03:32.240 --> 00:03:37.186 leadership apparently anticipates some kind of action this legislative 00:03:37.219 --> 00:03:42.196 session to deal with the problem. Representative, good enough. What about 00:03:42.229 --> 00:03:48.406 it? Will uh Arizona's legislature follow in the foots of feet of the, of, 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:52.085 of California's voters. Well, we're working on it. I was up today uh 00:03:52.118 --> 00:03:56.446 talking with staff about just what exactly we want to put into a proposed 00:03:56.479 --> 00:04:00.186 bill and we should be pre filing some legislation within a couple of weeks. 00:04:00.219 --> 00:04:04.055 Just depends on how quick legislative Council can process the stuff we're 00:04:04.088 --> 00:04:08.916 gonna use. Uh California as a starting point, add some in some provisions 00:04:08.949 --> 00:04:12.936 of our own and delete a couple of the California provisions we don't think 00:04:12.969 --> 00:04:16.217 are relevant. What kind of popular feedback are you getting on this issue 00:04:16.250 --> 00:04:19.536 at this point in time? Oh, it's overwhelming everywhere you turn, people 00:04:19.569 --> 00:04:22.276 are very, very concerned about their insurance rates. You got to remember 00:04:22.309 --> 00:04:26.817 the state mandates that people have auto insurance and everybody's got a 00:04:26.850 --> 00:04:32.745 horror story to tell Mike. If Arizona were to pass something. Proposition 00:04:32.778 --> 00:04:38.377 one. Oh three, like, would insurance companies flee this state? Well, I 00:04:38.410 --> 00:04:43.276 think a one oh three type legislative proposal would be a disaster for 00:04:43.309 --> 00:04:47.226 this state. Companies would be forced under proposition one oh three to 00:04:47.259 --> 00:04:50.555 essentially write business at a loss and no one's going to stick around 00:04:50.588 --> 00:04:54.226 and write business at a loss. I think that what we've got here in Arizona 00:04:54.259 --> 00:04:57.286 is an auto insurance study commission already in place. And we'd like to 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:01.447 see that commission finish their job before some precipitous legislation 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.366 is considered one. California lawmaker referred to the threats over there 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:11.916 of, we're going to leave if you pass proposition one oh three as terrorist 00:05:11.949 --> 00:05:16.507 threats, you get any response to that. Well, it's not terrorists to be 00:05:16.540 --> 00:05:19.567 under the gun over there. Like the insurance industry is where they're 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.226 forced to actually lose money. You know, I'd vote for something that says 00:05:23.259 --> 00:05:26.745 I'd get one month free utilities. Anyone would. And that's the kind of 00:05:26.778 --> 00:05:31.245 proposition that passed over there. Is it to a certain extent demagoguery 00:05:31.278 --> 00:05:36.637 ? I mean, are we playing to passion here? Representative, good enough 00:05:36.670 --> 00:05:41.046 instead of sound economic or business sense? Well, we're being responsive 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:44.856 to public concerns. I think that you have to understand that the insurance 00:05:44.889 --> 00:05:47.967 business has been controversial for a long time. It's been highly 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:52.145 regulated by the government. But through various political machinations, 00:05:52.178 --> 00:05:57.387 the insurance industry has been able to escape a national anti trust 00:05:57.420 --> 00:06:03.575 action. There is, there is a state actions only permitted. And as a 00:06:03.608 --> 00:06:07.187 consequence, we, a lot of us feel that the insurance industry has not been 00:06:07.220 --> 00:06:10.786 very, very honest with the people. It's really a gambling business. If you 00:06:10.819 --> 00:06:15.075 think about it, when you buy a policy, you're placing a bet. And as we all 00:06:15.108 --> 00:06:19.745 know, the house always wins, Mike, I think one of the problems that people 00:06:19.778 --> 00:06:24.697 have with insurance is they see all these big shiny buildings that 00:06:24.730 --> 00:06:29.007 insurance companies own and they see, I mean, I think it used to be the 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:33.455 largest owner of real estate in the world and obviously in many respects, 00:06:33.488 --> 00:06:39.796 the most profitable industry in the world. Yet they hear these stories 00:06:39.829 --> 00:06:43.187 about, well, we're going to lose $400 million this year and those kinds of 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:47.387 things and most people, including myself can't put those things together. 00:06:47.420 --> 00:06:49.976 Well, those are all life insurance companies, Mike, we're talking about 00:06:50.009 --> 00:06:54.765 auto insurance here. Uh Auto insurance essentially is, is a business 00:06:54.798 --> 00:06:57.776 that's what's known as a short tail line. In other words, the claims come 00:06:57.809 --> 00:07:01.555 in fairly fast fast. You can't go out and take the premium dollars and buy 00:07:01.588 --> 00:07:05.296 real estate. You have to invest in more liquid assets to pay those claims. 00:07:05.329 --> 00:07:08.916 So that's really not the situation. I do think there's a certain amount 00:07:08.949 --> 00:07:12.596 of demagoguery to get back to this issue though. And I would hope that 00:07:12.629 --> 00:07:16.986 everyone would recognize particularly the legislature that's in Arizona's 00:07:17.019 --> 00:07:21.036 best interest to study this problem and come up with some real solutions 00:07:21.069 --> 00:07:24.515 that can address folks' concerns. You know, one point I'd like to make is 00:07:24.548 --> 00:07:28.717 that Arizona has a tremendous swing in terms of premiums right now. And 00:07:28.750 --> 00:07:33.156 there are 131 companies actively competing in the market and the premium 00:07:33.189 --> 00:07:37.286 spread approaches $800 between the cheapest and highest price policies. 00:07:37.319 --> 00:07:40.916 What about that point? Well, I think the thing you have to keep in mind is 00:07:40.949 --> 00:07:44.726 that we don't really know what's going on inside the insurance business, 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:48.336 setting aside this business of the rate rollbacks and what not. I think 00:07:48.369 --> 00:07:52.116 you have to understand that a key issue is prior approval of rates. The 00:07:52.149 --> 00:07:54.937 way it works now is they can just raise a rate and maybe the state can 00:07:54.970 --> 00:07:59.026 come in later and try to make them roll it back. What we want to see is 00:07:59.059 --> 00:08:02.986 consumer input into the rate setting process. And to do that, we have to 00:08:03.019 --> 00:08:06.887 have the insurance companies opening their books, they won't do that and 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.156 he talks about how much money they lose. I don't know if that's true or 00:08:10.189 --> 00:08:13.765 not. I mean, somehow they seem to be making money. Uh they, they, you 00:08:13.798 --> 00:08:16.106 don't see them going out of business that much. And when they do somehow 00:08:16.139 --> 00:08:19.836 these guys walk away with the new cars and, and what not. But I mean, to 00:08:19.869 --> 00:08:24.217 the extent that we trace that we trust most of our basic product decisions 00:08:24.250 --> 00:08:29.015 to a marketplace, if indeed you have 131 insurers here. And if indeed you 00:08:29.048 --> 00:08:33.645 have those kinds of swings, the conventional wisdom normally is, well, the 00:08:33.678 --> 00:08:37.025 marketplace will set the rates better. And indeed sometimes when 00:08:37.058 --> 00:08:40.515 government interferes, you get some rather disastrous results that nobody 00:08:40.548 --> 00:08:45.505 can, can foretell can government do insurance rates better than the 00:08:45.538 --> 00:08:49.186 marketplace. Well, governments already interfered. They make you buy it, 00:08:49.219 --> 00:08:51.846 you're going to drive a car and in the absence of the public of a public 00:08:51.879 --> 00:08:55.407 transportation system, you essentially have to have a car and you have to 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:59.086 buy insurance legally and you know, to buy a house, you have to have 00:08:59.119 --> 00:09:02.407 insurance. I mean, the fact is you can't live without insurance in a 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:05.116 modern society unless you're going to join the ranks of the homeless. And 00:09:05.149 --> 00:09:09.066 so go so government is already there. And I think that that is a key 00:09:09.099 --> 00:09:12.167 problem to understand there is no free market. You don't have a choice in 00:09:12.200 --> 00:09:15.736 buying insurance, you really have to do it. And so once that's understood 00:09:15.769 --> 00:09:18.986 , it's kind of like utilities. I mean, we don't really have a choice of 00:09:19.019 --> 00:09:22.226 three or four electric companies or three or four gas companies. And so we 00:09:22.259 --> 00:09:25.537 have a history of regulation. Well, the same thing is true here. Do you 00:09:25.570 --> 00:09:29.287 need that antitrust exemption? Is there some reason why insurance 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:32.816 companies should be treated differently in that regard? Well, there is 00:09:32.849 --> 00:09:37.326 insurance companies historically have pooled lost data with the view that 00:09:37.359 --> 00:09:41.496 at least people can then see for those difficult to write lines, what the 00:09:41.529 --> 00:09:45.385 loss experience is and that permits smaller companies to actually compete. 00:09:45.418 --> 00:09:49.907 Also, you pool together and join underwriting associations so that the 00:09:49.940 --> 00:09:53.736 insurance companies can then write those difficult to place risks. We've 00:09:53.769 --> 00:09:57.297 got J U A s here operating in the state of Arizona who would not have 00:09:57.330 --> 00:10:01.116 coverage but for that type of antitrust exemption. But I really think the 00:10:01.149 --> 00:10:05.076 issue that folks need to consider is there is tremendous competition out 00:10:05.109 --> 00:10:08.976 there and the market should be operating. Maybe there's some fine tune 00:10:09.009 --> 00:10:12.066 adjustments. Maybe there's a need for greater oversight on the part of the 00:10:12.099 --> 00:10:16.537 department in terms of reports, monitoring, getting information, but I'm 00:10:16.570 --> 00:10:20.696 not sure they would wait in all of California disrupt the entire system. I 00:10:20.729 --> 00:10:23.375 think they're going to be paying that price over in California for 2 to 3 00:10:23.408 --> 00:10:26.807 years politically though are insurance companies sweating bullets. Seems 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:29.515 to be a pretty popular phenomenon. I don't know if they're sweating 00:10:29.548 --> 00:10:32.696 bullets, but I think a lot of folks are concerned about the fallout from 00:10:32.729 --> 00:10:38.775 prop 103. Do you have to represent a good enough address? Both sides of 00:10:38.808 --> 00:10:44.826 this equation necessarily both looking at some of the things which have 00:10:44.859 --> 00:10:49.145 been around the horn here in Arizona, their claims experience, whether or 00:10:49.178 --> 00:10:52.917 not our legal system is out of control. You got runaway juries, I don't 00:10:52.950 --> 00:10:55.986 know, slap whatever terms you want on this do you need to get a more 00:10:56.019 --> 00:10:59.375 comprehensive look than just the right side though? Well, I think first 00:10:59.408 --> 00:11:01.856 off have to understand that the study committee is an ancient political 00:11:01.889 --> 00:11:05.436 gimmick for stalling and that's what's going on. Now, that study committee 00:11:05.469 --> 00:11:10.407 was put in place of a bill that would have mandated prior review of rates. 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:13.625 And as I understand there, it's studying things like the economic impact 00:11:13.658 --> 00:11:18.307 of a right turn on a red light. I think that you have to understand the 00:11:18.340 --> 00:11:22.186 political process conclusions on that. Well, supposedly it makes more 00:11:22.219 --> 00:11:26.765 accidents. I don't know, it also has an air quality bonus, but that's, 00:11:26.798 --> 00:11:29.436 that's another story. I think you have to understand that the political 00:11:29.469 --> 00:11:33.657 process is just that it's a process and Mr Lowe is going to come in and 00:11:33.690 --> 00:11:36.255 he's going to bring in his figures and the consumers will come in and 00:11:36.288 --> 00:11:40.476 bring in their figures. We will be making decisions based on what is 00:11:40.509 --> 00:11:45.211 presented to us. And right now it's very clear that the insurance industry 00:11:45.244 --> 00:11:48.250 has not been terribly honest with us. After all, the attorney general of 00:11:48.283 --> 00:11:51.130 this state, a very conservative Republican has joined a lawsuit, a 00:11:51.163 --> 00:11:56.371 national lawsuit against the insurance industry. I think there may be some 00:11:56.404 --> 00:11:59.260 racketeering going on in some of these things. Some of the stories I get 00:11:59.293 --> 00:12:01.672 from people the way they've been treated by their insurance companies. 00:12:01.705 --> 00:12:05.130 It's real close to criminal, I think. Representative. Good enough. Thank 00:12:05.163 --> 00:12:08.000 you. For joining us, Mike. Our thanks to you as well. I have a sneaking 00:12:08.033 --> 00:12:12.476 suspicion. We'll probably be back to this thing before the sessions. The 00:12:12.509 --> 00:12:16.157 Arizona Auto Insurance Study Commission would like your comments on this 00:12:16.190 --> 00:12:19.145 issue. A public hearing is scheduled for Friday, December 2nd at 10 00:12:19.178 --> 00:12:21.885 o'clock in the morning. That hearing will be held at the State Capitol in 00:12:21.918 --> 00:12:24.787 house hearing room number three. Or you can write to the Arizona 00:12:24.820 --> 00:12:30.346 Department of Insurance 81 East Jefferson, Phoenix 853. Still to come on 00:12:30.379 --> 00:12:34.385 horizon. We'll find out why these ancient ruins in southeastern Arizona 00:12:34.418 --> 00:12:42.418 may revive the economy of nearby communities. 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.645 If you've ever wanted to be Indiana Jones, you can live out your fantasy 00:13:33.678 --> 00:13:39.066 at Besh goa an archaeological park in Globe, Arizona. Besh Bago means 00:13:39.099 --> 00:13:43.547 place of metal in the Apache language. It's what the apaches used to call 00:13:43.580 --> 00:13:48.307 the city of Globe and said he hopes that Besa will mean Globe to a lot of 00:13:48.340 --> 00:13:51.856 tourists in the near future. Globe is counting on the park to help revive 00:13:51.889 --> 00:13:58.015 its flagging economy. As we see in the following report, 00:13:58.048 --> 00:14:02.717 a Salad Indian ruin overlooking the city of Globe. Arizona is attracting 00:14:02.750 --> 00:14:07.236 an increasing number of tourists these days. I'd like to welcome you to 00:14:07.269 --> 00:14:13.255 this morning. My name is John and I'm the director has been partially 00:14:13.288 --> 00:14:18.770 restored and reconstructed and it offers visitors intriguing views of life 00:14:18.803 --> 00:14:23.010 in a wealthy prehistoric town. Then they made what we think a single entry 00:14:23.043 --> 00:14:27.042 way basically to control access in and out of the site you think in fact, 00:14:27.075 --> 00:14:30.701 be be was probably a regional trade or market center where a lot of 00:14:30.734 --> 00:14:33.782 commerce went on prehistorically. And another thing you want to do in a 00:14:33.815 --> 00:14:39.586 commerce center like that is control access to that marketplace. The 14 th 00:14:39.619 --> 00:14:43.686 century builders of Besh Pago may have wanted to keep people out. But 00:14:43.719 --> 00:14:48.125 today, the cities of Globe and Miami are inviting them to come on in 00:14:48.158 --> 00:14:52.596 Sheldon Miller heads the chamber of commerce like a tour bus coming into 00:14:52.629 --> 00:14:59.076 town that may bring 50 people in usually means $3000 recycled money into a 00:14:59.109 --> 00:15:03.927 community. When archaeologist John Homan first visited the Besh Pago site 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:08.797 six years ago, it was neglected and nearly forgotten. And as we were 00:15:08.830 --> 00:15:13.287 wandering around the ruin, a member of the Globe City Council came up and 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:17.196 asked us what we were up to. We told them we were looking at this 00:15:17.229 --> 00:15:21.596 archaeological ruin and he said, gee we didn't realize that's what this 00:15:21.629 --> 00:15:26.226 was. And we have this city park complex being developed around it. And 00:15:26.259 --> 00:15:29.025 they were thinking of just taking all these rocks and pushing them off the 00:15:29.058 --> 00:15:33.417 edge of the mountain. And I said, well, maybe we could do something else 00:15:33.450 --> 00:15:38.217 besides that. The city and county decided to make the ruin into the focal 00:15:38.250 --> 00:15:42.576 point of the City Park complex. The first part of the program was the 00:15:42.609 --> 00:15:47.446 actual work at the site and museum complex itself where we would apply for 00:15:47.479 --> 00:15:52.476 funds and grants as a job training program. That is a way of alleviating 00:15:52.509 --> 00:15:56.576 some of the unemployment in the community and retraining highly qualified 00:15:56.609 --> 00:16:01.525 individuals into new areas of work and productivity for the community. And 00:16:01.558 --> 00:16:04.326 then at the same time, the actual building of the site as an 00:16:04.359 --> 00:16:09.895 archaeological park would make it a cornerstone in an expanding program of 00:16:09.928 --> 00:16:15.076 tourism and economic development for that community and region area. 00:16:15.109 --> 00:16:18.866 Probably the only access out of here was perhaps maybe a ladder out of 00:16:18.899 --> 00:16:23.217 the main room studies done by the National Park Service and other agencies 00:16:23.250 --> 00:16:27.206 show that the main reason tourists come to the American Southwest is to 00:16:27.239 --> 00:16:32.946 enjoy our region's archaeological heritage in GOA. We've focused it in on 00:16:32.979 --> 00:16:36.456 not only seeing all the artifacts that have been recovered throughout the 00:16:36.489 --> 00:16:42.246 years of excavation and discovery at and see rooms, even rebuilt rooms 00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:47.057 with roofs on and artifacts back on the floors as they were being occupied 00:16:47.090 --> 00:16:51.316 prehistorically. And you can even climb up to the upper story portion of 00:16:51.349 --> 00:16:54.366 the room. So you can climb and have a hands on experience that way as you 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:59.417 walk through different parts of this very large prehistoric site. But 00:16:59.450 --> 00:17:03.015 you're actually going to see archaeologists at work. You're actually going 00:17:03.048 --> 00:17:07.746 to see new rooms being excavated and new discoveries being made every day. 00:17:07.779 --> 00:17:12.585 And we expect comparing other Indian ruins with this one that eventually 00:17:12.618 --> 00:17:16.516 when the word gets out. This should draw between 80 and 100,000 people to 00:17:16.549 --> 00:17:20.765 our community with me tonight to discuss the best go a park and how it's 00:17:20.798 --> 00:17:24.685 impacting the economy of Globe is Robert Hickman, the mayor of Globe Bob. 00:17:24.718 --> 00:17:29.064 Welcome to the show. Thank you, Mike. Now mayor, assure me that you 00:17:29.097 --> 00:17:32.294 weren't one of the people who were gonna push these rocks off the side of 00:17:32.327 --> 00:17:37.365 the. No, I, I took office about six months ago. I'm not sure who that 00:17:37.398 --> 00:17:45.325 gentleman was. I get you what made Globe decide to get into this area to 00:17:45.358 --> 00:17:50.335 actively develop that site as part of its park complex? Well, I think it 00:17:50.368 --> 00:17:53.795 was approach to the archaeologist, but a gentleman, I think it was Louie 00:17:53.828 --> 00:17:56.877 Gary who was a councilman and vice mayor at that time. I think he was the 00:17:56.910 --> 00:18:00.026 one who picked up the ball and, and carried it on down the road with the 00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:03.746 help of that mayor at that time, Hank Williams. How successful is a 00:18:03.779 --> 00:18:07.325 tourist attraction has it been to date? Well, it's hard to tell about 00:18:07.358 --> 00:18:11.585 three months ago. We had the grand opening Governor Mofford came up and uh 00:18:11.618 --> 00:18:15.446 so we haven't really been able to tell too much at this time. What's up 00:18:15.479 --> 00:18:19.075 there? Are there new attractions planned for the park? And then obviously 00:18:19.108 --> 00:18:23.585 we got a good look at the fact that you can tour the facility. Is there 00:18:23.618 --> 00:18:28.486 more to it than that either presently. Offered or on the drawing board. 00:18:28.519 --> 00:18:32.676 What's unique about this site is that it's a constantly growing changing 00:18:32.709 --> 00:18:36.186 site. They, they're working it all the time. Whenever you go to visit, 00:18:36.219 --> 00:18:39.867 there's either an archaeologist on staff there or an assistant working the 00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:43.467 site, it will be constantly changing. You can go back year after year and 00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:46.335 see something new and different. You know, one of the things that I was 00:18:46.368 --> 00:18:48.867 amazed by, in fact, we were talking about it is we were watching the 00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:53.266 report, obviously, the thing must be in pretty good condition because it 00:18:53.299 --> 00:18:57.815 was supporting people climbing up to the, to the second story. And uh and 00:18:57.848 --> 00:19:04.217 , and walking around was, is there a lot of uh 20th century in that or, or 00:19:04.250 --> 00:19:11.097 is, is it still in that kind of condition after 700 years? Uh No, it's uh 00:19:11.130 --> 00:19:14.597 actually it was a pile of rubble when they first went in there and all 00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:18.035 this has been built back up. There's a few 20th century nuts and bolts to 00:19:18.068 --> 00:19:22.496 make sure the ladder holds people. But uh most of the work is as it should 00:19:22.529 --> 00:19:25.226 have been or would have been back then. What about the estimate that we 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:30.295 heard in the report of of uh annual visitation of 82 to 100,000 people. 00:19:30.328 --> 00:19:35.097 What do you think about that? We took a survey of the other archaeological 00:19:35.130 --> 00:19:39.127 sites around to National Monument, 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:45.196 Casa Grande ruins over in Coolidge and we went from there. And we came to 00:19:45.229 --> 00:19:48.565 an average of, we figure we can draw 80,000 people. This is a much closer 00:19:48.598 --> 00:19:52.676 to the road than some of the others are. And it's handicap accessible for 00:19:52.709 --> 00:19:56.857 one thing on the lower levels and more active touching site. And I think 00:19:56.890 --> 00:20:00.627 once the word gets out, we'll have those 80,000 plus. I was just gonna ask 00:20:00.660 --> 00:20:04.996 you, do you have any feel for how long it takes, for example, to get the 00:20:05.029 --> 00:20:11.377 word out on, on something like this to become, uh for example, a Montezuma 00:20:11.410 --> 00:20:15.147 or I guess classic. Classic obviously is the Grand Canyon. But how long 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:20.186 does it take to get that as part of the public's awareness in this case? 00:20:20.219 --> 00:20:23.416 Well, right now, our, our uh chamber of commerce is working real hard to 00:20:23.449 --> 00:20:26.016 get the word out. One of the things is being here on this program. We're 00:20:26.049 --> 00:20:29.496 appreciative of that. Well, we've got a lot of circus out. We've have 00:20:29.529 --> 00:20:33.506 people that have come in from uh Austria that came in and heard about it. 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:37.117 They've taken the word back there. People are coming seeing and taking 00:20:37.150 --> 00:20:40.916 the word and that's helping. I think that's gonna be the best 00:20:40.949 --> 00:20:46.006 advertisement we can get and the economic impact translates to what you're 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:51.006 gonna feel for that. Well, we, we figured with 80,000 people, you're 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.877 looking at a $3 million impact in a year's period on the economy and this 00:20:55.910 --> 00:21:03.910 basically is uh spend spending food, lodging, um, fuels, things such as 00:21:04.108 --> 00:21:07.476 that and I suppose, direct employment opportunities associated with the 00:21:07.509 --> 00:21:10.666 site in those cases. That's true. Ok. Fun. Hopefully, while they're there 00:21:10.699 --> 00:21:13.867 , they'll see the other sites. We have, we have an historic downtown 00:21:13.900 --> 00:21:21.226 district with 1800 early 1900 architecture and uh our mountains are five 00:21:21.259 --> 00:21:26.186 miles down the road. Beautiful mountains. Ok. It's a good, uh, beautiful 00:21:26.219 --> 00:21:29.387 place to be Bob Hickman. We appreciate you being here. That's a neat site. 00:21:29.420 --> 00:21:32.887 Thanks for discussing it. Thank you. Thanksgiving is just a couple of 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:37.166 days away. Now, while some observe the holiday by cooking a turkey or 00:21:37.199 --> 00:21:40.647 watching football. Jana Boomers back takes a different approach in honor 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:44.357 of Turkey Day and its bird of honor. Jana Bestow is a group of special 00:21:44.390 --> 00:21:48.097 awards in tonight's commentary. 00:21:48.130 --> 00:21:53.206 My only concern is that I'm about to libel the poor miserable turkey. This 00:21:53.239 --> 00:21:57.516 dumb animal doesn't have a thing going for itself. It spends a boring life 00:21:57.549 --> 00:22:01.656 and then gets butchered and we make jokes about really stupid things being 00:22:01.689 --> 00:22:06.397 a turkey. So as I give my annual Turkey Awards, I do want to say, I feel 00:22:06.430 --> 00:22:10.147 sorry for the bird, but not sorry enough to eliminate my awards for 00:22:10.180 --> 00:22:14.996 behavior. Befitting the designation of Turkey. So here we go. First. I 00:22:15.029 --> 00:22:19.535 want to give a truly special award entitled, you must think we're all 00:22:19.568 --> 00:22:23.825 Turkeys. This year's honors are shared by none other than Charles Keating 00:22:23.858 --> 00:22:27.867 and Kemper Marley, both of whom are trying to convince state tax officials 00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:32.256 that they aren't developers. They are farmers keating in the most 00:22:32.289 --> 00:22:36.575 outrageous nose thumbing. I've seen says he deserves to pay the low farm 00:22:36.608 --> 00:22:41.555 taxes on his commercial land in Mesa because he's growing barley now. He 00:22:41.588 --> 00:22:45.075 doesn't have water rights on that land so he can't irrigate the crop that 00:22:45.108 --> 00:22:51.186 needs oh 25 to 30 inches of water a year. No, Charlie says he's going to 00:22:51.219 --> 00:22:56.555 dry farm the land, plant it and let Mother Nature water it. Of course, 00:22:56.588 --> 00:23:00.936 nature only gives Arizona seven or eight inches of water a year. Meanwhile 00:23:00.969 --> 00:23:05.127 , Kemper Marley has rented a couple of cows and put in water tanks on his 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:09.196 land in Scottsdale so he can continue paying virtually nothing on his 12 00:23:09.229 --> 00:23:12.585 square miles of prime land. He claims he's been running cattle on that 00:23:12.618 --> 00:23:18.006 land all the while. But if he just put in the water tanks now, well, if 00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:20.575 Charlie Keating and Kemper Marley keep getting away with cheating Arizona 00:23:20.608 --> 00:23:25.397 , this way I propose we all refuse to pay our property taxes. Otherwise we 00:23:25.430 --> 00:23:30.176 all will be Turkeys. Next. We have the Turkey brain award. It goes to 00:23:30.209 --> 00:23:37.357 someone who like a turkey has none. The hands down winner is Keith Keith 00:23:37.390 --> 00:23:40.526 wanted to be a county supervisor so badly. He took to lying about his 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.186 opponent, Carol Carpenter when that wasn't enough. He said fellow 00:23:44.219 --> 00:23:48.486 republican George Campbell was opposing him because Campbell was brain 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:54.016 damaged. Well, the voters weren't barely 30% of them displayed the Turkey 00:23:54.049 --> 00:23:57.726 like behavior of voting for Keith Carpenter won by the landslide she 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:02.486 deserved. Do you think that Turkey's political career is over? That brings 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:06.535 us to the deserving Turkey award? This one has to go to the Phoenix 00:24:06.568 --> 00:24:10.835 Cardinals. You know, they're tied for first place. The players might be 00:24:10.868 --> 00:24:14.607 perfectly neat guys, but they've got a real Turkey foreign owner, Bill 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:19.016 Bidwell came to Arizona to gouge us. He's charging the highest ticket 00:24:19.049 --> 00:24:24.176 prices in the entire national football league. Some say that's ok because 00:24:24.209 --> 00:24:28.387 the Cardinals are tied for first place. Bidwell doesn't have a signed 00:24:28.420 --> 00:24:31.825 contract with the city of Tempe yet. Although Tempe is spending millions 00:24:31.858 --> 00:24:35.555 building him a training center, some say that's fine because the Cardinals 00:24:35.588 --> 00:24:40.016 are tied for first place. They even serve lousy hot dogs at the stadium. 00:24:40.049 --> 00:24:44.377 But people say it's worth it since the Cardinals are tied for first place. 00:24:44.410 --> 00:24:49.436 But you know what? Everybody is tied for first place. Big deal. You know 00:24:49.469 --> 00:24:54.565 , there is no dumber Turkey than a football Turkey unless it's Jerry Lange 00:24:54.598 --> 00:24:59.256 who wins this year's obnoxious Turkey award. Jerry says he'll move his 00:24:59.289 --> 00:25:02.575 Phoenix sons out of Phoenix if the city doesn't build him a new downtown 00:25:02.608 --> 00:25:07.496 stadium, a stadium he claims will bring great economic benefit to Phoenix. 00:25:07.529 --> 00:25:13.045 All that can be said to that is Turkey. Every study says Lange is making 00:25:13.078 --> 00:25:17.256 up this stuff about his stadium, helping us all that is a proper way to 00:25:17.289 --> 00:25:20.986 spend taxpayers' money because it will benefit taxpayers in the long run. 00:25:21.019 --> 00:25:25.397 It will benefit Jerry Colangelo and his partners. Period. And these 00:25:25.430 --> 00:25:29.166 threats about give me what I want or I'll take my ball and play some place 00:25:29.199 --> 00:25:33.137 else. I hope Mayor Terry got it in the Phoenix City Council calls his 00:25:33.170 --> 00:25:38.887 bluff. You'd rather be the mesa sons. Fine with me. Are the Tempe sons 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:46.476 great. How about the Buckeye Sons and finally the Golden Fleeced Turkey 00:25:46.509 --> 00:25:51.147 Award. This award doesn't go to the person who said these words, but it 00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:58.085 goes to every fool who believed them. The words are read my lips. No new 00:25:58.118 --> 00:26:04.785 taxes. Happy Thanksgiving. If you have any thoughts or comments about 00:26:04.818 --> 00:26:08.857 Jana's remarks or would like a transcript of her commentary, right to 00:26:08.890 --> 00:26:13.785 Boomer's Box byline channel eight television tie 85287. That is Boomer's 00:26:13.818 --> 00:26:20.467 Box byline channel eight television tie 85287. Tomorrow Horizon will be 00:26:20.500 --> 00:26:25.236 pre empted for a special program called the Parenthood Game. A look at how 00:26:25.269 --> 00:26:29.075 animals cure and nurture their young. We'll be back Thursday for a 00:26:29.108 --> 00:26:33.226 Thanksgiving edition of Horizon and this Friday Phoenix Cardinals owner, 00:26:33.259 --> 00:26:37.887 Bill Bidwell and Phoenix Suns owner Jerry Colangelo are going to be here 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.857 to discuss the state of the professional sports market in Arizona. Hope 00:26:41.890 --> 00:26:44.946 you will join us for the rest of the week. Thanks very much for being for 00:26:44.979 --> 00:26:48.916 being here on a Tuesday. I'm Michael grant. You have a pleasant one. Good 00:26:48.949 --> 00:26:56.949 night. 00:27:21.789 --> 00:27:25.266 If you have comments regarding this evening's Horizon program, send them 00:27:25.299 --> 00:27:31.809 to Horizon Channel eight Television, Arizona State University. 10 P 85287.