WEBVTT 00:00:07.139 --> 00:00:09.139 Mhm. Mhm. 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:55.626 The proposed designs of Architect Palace Hillary for extremely high and 00:00:55.659 --> 00:00:59.896 complex cities. Are colleges, as he calls them. They seem at first glance 00:00:59.929 --> 00:01:04.167 , wholly unrealistic for our times with new housing being demanded 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:08.497 constantly, were simply spreading out across the landscape everywhere. But 00:01:08.530 --> 00:01:12.717 at what point do we stop and undertake the titanic job of attempting a 00:01:12.750 --> 00:01:16.647 structure several times higher than the Empire State building, which would 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:20.087 integrate all of the functions of a city and be surrounded by unspoiled 00:01:20.120 --> 00:01:25.497 nature for that is basically what an archaeology involves. So, Larry is 00:01:25.530 --> 00:01:30.286 building a very modest test archaeology in my home state of Arizona. Now, 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.266 a few years ago, he proposed a truly large one to the state of New Jersey 00:01:34.299 --> 00:01:37.816 for their famous Meadowlands area. The chairman of the Meadowlands 00:01:37.849 --> 00:01:42.217 Commission at that time, was paul Ylva soccer, now professor of public 00:01:42.250 --> 00:01:46.357 Affairs and Urban planning at Princeton University, a man with wide 00:01:46.390 --> 00:01:51.266 experience in government and environmental development work. Follow when 00:01:51.299 --> 00:01:56.217 last we met, you left quite an impact on me. I don't know if you recall, 00:01:56.250 --> 00:02:01.137 we were meeting in New Jersey when I had the responsibility of developing 00:02:01.170 --> 00:02:06.367 the Meadowlands, I had to face the legislature to get money. It had to be 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:11.747 very practical. And at the time though, the impact that you made was with 00:02:11.780 --> 00:02:18.827 an idea. Mhm. Subsequently, I've been senior models and reading the book. 00:02:18.860 --> 00:02:21.506 I have a little difficulty 00:02:21.539 --> 00:02:27.047 seeing the idea behind some of the words and the models and I wondered 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:31.427 since I think the idea is so important, whether you feel sometimes that 00:02:31.460 --> 00:02:37.106 the model gets in the way very often, it seems that the models present 00:02:37.139 --> 00:02:41.397 themselves a little too strongly, which means that people are impressed or 00:02:41.430 --> 00:02:46.397 depressed by the models. And so the idea gets lost. And I guess that 00:02:46.430 --> 00:02:53.226 wasn't a fault of mine in trying to give body to an abstract idea. The 00:02:53.259 --> 00:02:58.147 abstract idea which at least you're left with me is in contrast to what 00:02:58.180 --> 00:03:02.536 the americans have been doing, what much of the world is now doing instead 00:03:02.569 --> 00:03:07.756 of sprawling out, we must begin concentrating and must begin to put 00:03:07.789 --> 00:03:12.577 together all the functions that make up really quality living, which we're 00:03:12.610 --> 00:03:16.566 trying to get in the city. You look at some of the models. Do you think 00:03:16.599 --> 00:03:21.476 about the vulnerability of a mega structure such as that too internal 00:03:21.509 --> 00:03:26.136 sabotage. I would hate to be have to do the urban renewal of a city like 00:03:26.169 --> 00:03:31.726 that. Well, there is a there is an implicit fragility in anything which is 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:35.906 very lively I guess. And on the other hand, we have to we have to be able 00:03:35.939 --> 00:03:41.816 to put enough redundancies and enough auxiliary elements so that in a 00:03:41.849 --> 00:03:47.837 moment of crisis, we are not faced with total disaster, but in but at the 00:03:47.870 --> 00:03:52.117 same time, I feel that any large syria today is prone to disaster. I mean 00:03:52.150 --> 00:03:59.066 , it is a disaster really that stretched into I think you'll find many new 00:03:59.099 --> 00:04:03.356 Yorkers or Los Angelenos agreeing with you on a crowded highway when 00:04:03.389 --> 00:04:07.147 they're going to work because certainly I think for many of us now we 00:04:07.180 --> 00:04:13.957 spend so much of our time in a car or in crowded situations moving from 00:04:13.990 --> 00:04:18.536 one thing that we want to do to the next thing that we want to do. Yeah. 00:04:18.569 --> 00:04:24.416 And and the price we're paying. It's not just the price in hours and and 00:04:24.449 --> 00:04:29.906 let's say the price of the car. It's really an endless list of price tags 00:04:29.939 --> 00:04:36.217 that we don't consider. Well the highway network, the network within the 00:04:36.250 --> 00:04:41.676 city itself for streets and roads, the storage of this big machine, the 00:04:41.709 --> 00:04:45.587 cost of the machine, the maintenance of the machine. It's really a social 00:04:45.620 --> 00:04:49.217 and cultural price that we're paying, which is staggering. I think you're 00:04:49.250 --> 00:04:54.476 really criticizing what we have your critic, aren't you? Well, I feel that 00:04:54.509 --> 00:04:59.067 I have the right to criticize. If I if I can, if I have a hope of bring in 00:04:59.100 --> 00:05:04.017 offering an alternative, I wouldn't like to criticize if it's just a 00:05:04.050 --> 00:05:08.947 demolition performance that has been done. It's easy to criticize what we 00:05:08.980 --> 00:05:15.736 have now, as I mentioned myself legislatures, the taxpayer, We already 00:05:15.769 --> 00:05:20.906 have cities which are way behind and the ability to pay for what they have. 00:05:20.939 --> 00:05:26.967 It staggers my imagination sometimes when I think how can we discard or 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:33.246 leave the investment that we have to move to such a radically new concept 00:05:33.279 --> 00:05:40.697 , I would be the last person to suggest this kind of thing if it's true 00:05:40.730 --> 00:05:44.957 that we are going to build the equivalent of one city per month, A lot of 00:05:44.990 --> 00:05:50.467 , well 100,000 people, something that per month. I think that we shouldn't 00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:54.406 even begin to think that we have to discard what we have and that's very 00:05:54.439 --> 00:06:01.736 precious. No matter badly organized and are poorly is working. The point 00:06:01.769 --> 00:06:06.277 seems to me that when we do something new and we do it every day, then we 00:06:06.310 --> 00:06:10.666 did this, we should really try to put a new idea, possibly go to the roots 00:06:10.699 --> 00:06:14.496 of the problem and try to be radical in the best sense of the world. How 00:06:14.529 --> 00:06:19.007 close would Manhattan come to your concept if you took the automobile out 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:22.856 pretty close. The, the only thing that in a way we should take the streets 00:06:22.889 --> 00:06:27.726 out also because the street is, is as much as a dividing elements of 00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:32.476 modern and then a connective element in the city really, it divides and 00:06:32.509 --> 00:06:35.786 divides and divides constant. So what you're really saying is that the 00:06:35.819 --> 00:06:41.687 city surrounded by the shell is three dimensional. You should have access 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:46.017 from one point to the other very quickly. Yeah, that's right. It's not 00:06:46.050 --> 00:06:48.916 only one level of two or three levels that are going to make the 00:06:48.949 --> 00:06:52.447 difference. It's really the ability of connecting everywhere within the 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:57.106 city, no matter how how high you are. No, you are. So that you don't have 00:06:57.139 --> 00:07:02.166 only a network or overlap of two or three networks. It's a, it's a 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:06.837 constant flow that you can, you can obtain within the city. And this is 00:07:06.870 --> 00:07:11.017 what makes the city work really because the logistics, it's it's at the 00:07:11.050 --> 00:07:15.306 heart of the physical problems on the instrumental prob you might be 00:07:15.339 --> 00:07:20.187 surprised to hear that. I might say you're very practical. Oh, I'm 00:07:20.220 --> 00:07:26.267 absolutely, well, I make a distinction between the practical and the real 00:07:26.300 --> 00:07:32.786 and I'm very attached to that. I think that I, I feel I'm realistic and I 00:07:32.819 --> 00:07:38.877 feel that sometimes we become so practical that we, we live in a utopian 00:07:38.910 --> 00:07:43.356 kind of world. Things that you some of the things you're talking about are 00:07:43.389 --> 00:07:49.166 coming. It's interesting to see how we stretch bit by bit to achieve what 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:53.156 you've tried to put into one model. I can give you some examples. You've 00:07:53.189 --> 00:07:58.457 already referred to the fact that America must build At least a new city 00:07:58.490 --> 00:08:03.947 of 300,000 every year and keep moving through until the year 2000 if we're 00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:08.947 to accommodate all our people. And I noticed that the concept of new 00:08:08.980 --> 00:08:13.286 communities, which was visionary in this country just a few years ago is 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:18.779 now probably going to be laid out as national policy already is nationals. 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:20.839 Then I heard the other day that someone has suggested to President Nixon 00:08:24.540 --> 00:08:30.616 That we use the resources of unemployed engineers 50,000 of them now to 00:08:30.649 --> 00:08:36.807 begin designing in effect a utility corridor, which would link the 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:41.437 sprawled populations along the seaboards that we now have. I really think 00:08:41.470 --> 00:08:46.067 that we need a little more of the reasons why we are doing those things 00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:50.187 and maybe those are, they have to be a little philosophical or conceptual 00:08:50.220 --> 00:08:54.276 , because if we know why we're doing things, I think we might be able to 00:08:54.309 --> 00:09:00.736 do them better. What strikes me is that we have vague ideas why we do this 00:09:00.769 --> 00:09:04.876 and might we do that, but when you dig into it, we remain. You know, we 00:09:04.909 --> 00:09:11.356 are in in quicksands, quicksands. I feel that the basic concept is very 00:09:11.389 --> 00:09:16.986 sound that I have, and it's really pointing at this direction and that's 00:09:17.019 --> 00:09:23.207 what makes me optimist optimist. One of the things that 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:28.437 really remains as a haunting question to me is whether you are not trying 00:09:28.470 --> 00:09:34.616 to go back to the intimacy of a greek city or a european city, a medieval 00:09:34.649 --> 00:09:40.967 castle town with populations that are now up in the millions and billions 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:45.246 of people. Can you possibly get intimacy even with your kind of 00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:49.587 miniaturization? Well, I think intimacy, it has very much to do with 00:09:49.620 --> 00:09:52.396 number. And as you say, when you're living with a great number of intimacy 00:09:52.429 --> 00:09:55.927 , it goes out of the window, but there are many institutions and many 00:09:55.960 --> 00:10:00.287 activities which don't need intimacy. They need, they need to be in a 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:05.657 contest, which is somehow almost breathtaking in a way, and anything that 00:10:05.690 --> 00:10:11.307 has to do with the urban activity has something to do with extra intimacy. 00:10:11.340 --> 00:10:15.236 So we should be able to define the intimate space with its own functions 00:10:15.269 --> 00:10:20.557 and then immediately at the doorstep of this intimate space defined spaces 00:10:20.590 --> 00:10:24.167 which are less and less intimate according to what the functions performed 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:31.307 is. And this is not obtainable. I think by trying to to speed up traffic 00:10:31.340 --> 00:10:36.396 as we do now. We can only achieve it by cutting distances because then we 00:10:36.429 --> 00:10:40.697 reintroduced man as a bypass as a person, as an individual with two legs 00:10:40.730 --> 00:10:45.276 that can enjoy to go through different environments. What is reaching a 00:10:45.309 --> 00:10:51.687 certain point that he is interested in and this is the introduction of the 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:56.057 of the biological, let's say individual is going to define some of the 00:10:56.090 --> 00:11:00.596 scale the humaneness in the scale of the city which now is totally gonna 00:11:00.629 --> 00:11:07.266 you're in Los Angeles and unless you sit in this car you are, you are 00:11:07.299 --> 00:11:11.356 defeated. I mean you cannot operate as I was thinking about this 00:11:11.389 --> 00:11:15.557 conversation and going through your things again, I kept thinking of 00:11:15.590 --> 00:11:20.486 policy. Hillary sitting in the back yard, we're the Los Angeles suburban 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:27.236 yet the suburbanite is there. He's managed to get his little park in his 00:11:27.269 --> 00:11:34.317 backyard. He's got his restaurant in his grill when he wants music, he 00:11:34.350 --> 00:11:39.217 puts on a record and he gets the best orchestra of the world. Then he can 00:11:39.250 --> 00:11:44.736 show his home movies, the television set brings him every politician and 00:11:44.769 --> 00:11:49.427 without having to walk even across the street, he has all the culture that 00:11:49.460 --> 00:11:55.587 you seem to want physically to compact. I think that if we if we go to the 00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:59.547 extreme which we have to go to in a way to understand what the problem 00:11:59.580 --> 00:12:04.967 might be is that this individual and its own family might end up by being 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:09.746 what I would tend to call a naked mind in the sense that he might deprive 00:12:09.779 --> 00:12:16.587 himself of the actual experiencing of life because I can watch on tv as 00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:21.657 many killings as as I can take and still not understand what what death is. 00:12:21.690 --> 00:12:27.787 But if I if I watch an animal dying or if I butcher an animal then really 00:12:27.820 --> 00:12:31.207 start to understand what life and death is a little more. So if we 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:35.287 extrapolate, I think that with this form of synthetic information which is 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:40.407 very important for for learning as a learning device, but only with this 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:45.707 kind of information we tend to produce human beings which are very 00:12:45.740 --> 00:12:49.766 abstract and possibly very dangerous to themselves into society. I think 00:12:49.799 --> 00:12:53.677 that the environmental information has to be very substantial because it's 00:12:53.710 --> 00:12:58.717 the one that really brings in blood and tears and sweat and an informed 00:12:58.750 --> 00:13:04.506 society but not compassionate. That's right. Yeah. Um because we can say, 00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:08.307 well we take a child, we put in a in a white box, we plug all sorts of 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:12.626 information into it and we can do it now And what we we end up maybe 00:13:12.659 --> 00:13:16.667 within 10 years to have a genius, they're a genius that is going to be a 00:13:16.700 --> 00:13:20.407 monster because it cannot distinguish between good and evil between 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:25.486 compassion and and non compassion and and it's it's just going to make 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.807 rational decisions which are not human decisions. We we are we are far 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.337 beyond the rational at this point. You've taken to great risks. One of 00:13:33.370 --> 00:13:41.370 them I think is two risk and idea in a form like this. I have a feeling 00:13:41.450 --> 00:13:45.876 that you knew what you were doing because with the shock value of the form 00:13:45.909 --> 00:13:51.346 at least people are broken loose in their minds. Well, yeah, that that was 00:13:51.379 --> 00:13:57.807 the the original idea. The concept is one this complexity, miniaturization 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:03.096 Behavour and then I was trying to illustrate it. So I developed 40 or so 00:14:03.129 --> 00:14:08.187 different schemes trying to so to show that once you accept the concept, 00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:11.417 that doesn't mean that you are going to accept this solution and that 00:14:11.450 --> 00:14:15.606 solution, that there is an infinite variety of possibility built into it. 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:19.366 Maybe I went too far with that or maybe I tend to be a little too strong 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:25.756 in my visual definitions, I don't know, you might get the the budding 00:14:25.789 --> 00:14:31.106 politician to join your people out in Arizona listen to you for a whole 00:14:31.139 --> 00:14:35.146 summer and then right the message, he would like to get across to the 00:14:35.179 --> 00:14:39.567 legislature, that would be great, which, well, I wanted to refer to what I 00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.197 think is your second risk, most people that I know who come up with an 00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:49.346 astounding idea, verbalize it. Maybe go so far as to give it pictorial 00:14:49.379 --> 00:14:54.606 form, but very few go out and say, all right now I will start building. 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:57.096 Didn't you feel, don't you feel rather lonely with the risk you're taking 00:14:57.129 --> 00:15:02.226 out in Arizona yes and no, in a way we've been doing that in a very small 00:15:02.259 --> 00:15:06.146 scale for a few years. So I know a little what we're getting into just a 00:15:06.179 --> 00:15:10.896 little, but you have only one life to live, so you better you better get 00:15:10.929 --> 00:15:14.667 busy and try to take, take some chances. I'm curious to know how it's 00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:19.256 going and it's going very slowly, but it's going in the sense that every 00:15:19.289 --> 00:15:24.486 year we are putting a little more effort and a little more ability to, 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.787 well a little more cash, let's say. But we are now stifled by the fact 00:15:28.820 --> 00:15:33.756 that we have to pay for the land, which is a big burden, but we are, we 00:15:33.789 --> 00:15:37.077 are going to have more and more participants, mainly young people that are 00:15:37.110 --> 00:15:42.827 willing to put up some cash and some sweat here you are with talking about 00:15:42.860 --> 00:15:49.437 mega structures and yet without any cash flow that I can see without any 00:15:49.470 --> 00:15:53.157 new community support from the government or foundation grants you're 00:15:53.190 --> 00:15:56.937 beginning to build, well, it might be a responsibility or might be vision 00:15:56.970 --> 00:16:00.797 . I don't know. We'll see what went through if I may ask it's presumptuous 00:16:00.830 --> 00:16:03.606 question, What went through your mind as you looked at that piece of land 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:10.717 , you have the idea you want badly for that idea to be communicated and 00:16:10.750 --> 00:16:17.177 then comes making it concrete. Can you describe when you first looked at 00:16:17.210 --> 00:16:21.547 that land and what, what went through your head? Well, I like very much 00:16:21.580 --> 00:16:25.146 that land. I mean the kind of landscape there is in Arizona so 00:16:25.179 --> 00:16:29.646 independently from what I would do of it. I like it very much. But I 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:34.506 always feel that somehow I like much very much the land when I can 00:16:34.539 --> 00:16:37.817 manipulate it in the way, when I can intervene because what I cannot 00:16:37.850 --> 00:16:41.807 change in a way it's not doesn't belong to me. I don't feel comfortable 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:46.386 with it. So I felt that that land was very apt to accept what I was going 00:16:46.419 --> 00:16:50.496 to try to do with it At the same time. I I think I have a great respect 00:16:50.529 --> 00:16:56.187 for the land. So that instead of taking those 800 acres and transformed 00:16:56.220 --> 00:17:00.577 into something that could be maybe better, but probably will not be better 00:17:00.610 --> 00:17:05.607 than what it is now, I take a little corner of it, 1% corner of it and I'm 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:11.566 trying to build a little man made environment on that corner so that the 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:16.986 people living there will still enjoy that kind of vastness. I'm curious as 00:17:17.019 --> 00:17:21.647 , as one who is fond of many aspects of traditional Japanese culture. Do 00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:24.877 you see in Japanese tradition, the miniaturization you're talking about, I 00:17:24.910 --> 00:17:30.326 would say yes. Mhm and the ability of the japanese to really make so much 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.586 out of so little and I hope they are able to keep that I'm afraid, I'm not 00:17:34.619 --> 00:17:39.637 , I'm afraid they tend to become very much like us. Somebody let the 00:17:39.670 --> 00:17:45.427 automobile loose in japan and europe and now Russia and china and I 00:17:45.460 --> 00:17:48.697 remember talking to several soviet economists who said that they would 00:17:48.730 --> 00:17:52.607 like to stop the automobile but they can't, not even with Russian power. 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.877 So that's loose in the Japanese tradition though it may well be that the 00:17:55.910 --> 00:18:01.947 United States is going to come to it. Our concept is to sprawl. We still 00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:05.836 are settling the frontier, We like to express our psychological needs in 00:18:05.869 --> 00:18:10.836 terms of space. I like to have two walls an acre, two acres between myself 00:18:10.869 --> 00:18:17.296 and my neighbors arguments and yet I began to see how we recognize most of 00:18:17.329 --> 00:18:22.137 the most of the homes that are now being built are multi family structures 00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:25.407 were going to a different culture. 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:31.617 Well, I think there's a loneliness and a deep deprivation really in, in 00:18:31.650 --> 00:18:33.806 suburban 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:38.187 structure that it's slowly coming coming about. I mean we are realizing 00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:43.286 that it's not as golden as we as we thought it was. I think it becomes 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:48.726 really, really, do you see in the commune movement in this country only 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:54.957 only as a very important transient situation for young people, Not, not 00:18:54.990 --> 00:18:59.286 much more than that because they seem to be rejecting the the ability of 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:03.816 technology to really free ourselves. If we are going to be using it in the 00:19:03.849 --> 00:19:08.486 right way. So it's it's there is a nostalgia in it that I think it's not 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:13.407 very, very healthy. What would have happened if the city had come to you 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:18.066 and said, we want to move from what we are to what your conception is. How 00:19:18.099 --> 00:19:22.857 would you go about it? Well, evidently that would take a little bit of 00:19:22.890 --> 00:19:27.046 time to think about. But when you are faced with with the proposition of 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:32.326 this kind, you have to set up your own teamwork and and you know, start 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:38.897 from from the beginning, which is quite a long way back. And so it will be 00:19:38.930 --> 00:19:43.836 years of work and hundreds probably of people involved in it and so on. 00:19:43.869 --> 00:19:49.826 But I would still try to keep those, those tenets in mind because I think 00:19:49.859 --> 00:19:52.816 they are very, very basic. 00:19:52.849 --> 00:19:56.266 But I wish that will happen. You would you would like to have a city as 00:19:56.299 --> 00:20:00.107 your patron. It isn't the medieval days anymore. I'm not sure we have 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:04.847 anybody who's capable of giving urban renewal's, you know, we still do do 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:09.536 them one way or the other or at least we think that we should do something 00:20:09.569 --> 00:20:12.796 about those things. One advantage would be that instead of dislocating 00:20:12.829 --> 00:20:16.597 masses of population in this case, you would you would need to dislocate 00:20:16.630 --> 00:20:21.336 only a very small amount of people because the structure itself is so so 00:20:21.369 --> 00:20:26.447 small. And then once the structure begins to be usable, it doesn't have to 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.996 be finished, usable. Then the population that hasn't been removed would 00:20:31.029 --> 00:20:34.736 start to seep into it so that instead of having two dislocations, you 00:20:34.769 --> 00:20:39.437 would really have one dislocation from the from the old that has been 00:20:39.470 --> 00:20:46.076 decided should go into the new. So that would be a great accident. What 00:20:46.109 --> 00:20:50.056 would happen? I think one of your principles is that a person should have 00:20:50.089 --> 00:20:54.326 immediate access to open space, which I think you would first of all 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:59.336 define his privacy and the privacy, but it is often reflected in open 00:20:59.369 --> 00:21:03.786 space, the ability to walk. Mhm, Which is very difficult right now. I was 00:21:03.819 --> 00:21:09.306 walking down the freeway, But with the numbers that you've compacted into 00:21:09.339 --> 00:21:13.306 your communities, what would happen if half the community decided Sunday 00:21:13.339 --> 00:21:18.066 morning at 10:00 to go out and take a walk, I think it would be crowded. 00:21:18.099 --> 00:21:22.746 You know, they would say the hub of the whatever these centuries, but not 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:27.746 necessarily congested in the sense that would be an ugly happening because 00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:31.677 for one thing you would be dealing with with an open landscape and you 00:21:31.710 --> 00:21:35.806 have roadways and so on getting into the countryside, but a number of 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:40.697 those people could go and say underground and move out to mass 00:21:40.730 --> 00:21:44.316 transportation systems or even private transportation because I think if 00:21:44.349 --> 00:21:48.207 the car means something is is as as an instrument of leisure. So I would 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.887 say that possibly the car should be stored there so that people can use it. 00:21:52.920 --> 00:22:00.197 That I think that if you can somehow eliminate the coercion that we are, 00:22:00.230 --> 00:22:05.347 we are compelled into now because of survival, then this moving in and out 00:22:05.380 --> 00:22:10.917 of the city will not be as a mass as we might think of because knowing 00:22:10.950 --> 00:22:15.217 that the land is available every time, every moment of the day, every day 00:22:15.250 --> 00:22:18.857 of the week means that possibly I decided to go down now and you decide to 00:22:18.890 --> 00:22:23.407 go down later and so on. So you might have to stagger your elevator ships. 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:29.046 Well, yeah, those things I think should be done and can be done. But the 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:32.536 friends of the difference between the complexity of the car and the 00:22:32.569 --> 00:22:37.387 simplicity of the elevator is an indication of where the right thing is 00:22:37.420 --> 00:22:40.927 and the efficiency of the elevator against the deficiency of the car. It's 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:46.427 again an indication that the elevator is an answer. Very good answer. You 00:22:46.460 --> 00:22:50.236 really aren't going beyond present present technology, are you Not 00:22:50.269 --> 00:22:54.127 necessarily, no, because we are building friends of those 2000 New York 00:22:54.160 --> 00:23:00.937 each other which are abundantly within the limit of I mean any of the 00:23:00.970 --> 00:23:05.627 ideas here, it's abundantly within those limits. Give and take a few of 00:23:05.660 --> 00:23:10.316 them one of the things. Again, when you see that structure your mind 00:23:10.349 --> 00:23:13.187 immediately begins, I think going in the wrong direction, it starts moving 00:23:13.220 --> 00:23:20.006 towards technological problems that are associated with this or whatever. 00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:24.947 Am I right? And this is why I really don't want to spend much time going 00:23:24.980 --> 00:23:29.157 after the technical details or some of that sort of thing. Am I right in 00:23:29.190 --> 00:23:35.437 assuming that you're really making a commentary and what on the, on the 00:23:35.470 --> 00:23:42.506 society that is built on distance from each other? The failure to have the 00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:47.016 wholeness of the city represents and that you're trying to give first 00:23:47.049 --> 00:23:51.697 ideal for him to the need to bring those together and then you've tried 00:23:51.730 --> 00:23:55.776 your hand as an architect in some physical expression, I think so, he put 00:23:55.809 --> 00:23:58.806 it so well that I 00:23:58.839 --> 00:24:04.397 had a feeling almost in a way that that you ought to have a co author for 00:24:04.430 --> 00:24:08.617 some of the people I have to live with, who might just take that book and 00:24:08.650 --> 00:24:16.650 say Romanticism dreamer or whatever and not listened to follow salary 00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:19.597 because paul is really saying something which is I think most relevant to 00:24:19.630 --> 00:24:23.726 our conditions power. It's thought that to be practical, you have to be 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:27.937 incremental, which means one little bit more to what you are presently 00:24:27.970 --> 00:24:33.437 doing. If you keep adding one little practical bit to what we have, what 00:24:33.470 --> 00:24:38.746 do you see down the long road? Well, to be incremental is very important, 00:24:38.779 --> 00:24:42.586 but I think to be incremental means to know where we are going somehow and 00:24:42.619 --> 00:24:49.526 unless we get at least a vague notion of why we're going there and how 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:54.427 we're going to get there, it's really going to be chaos. And now chaos is 00:24:54.460 --> 00:24:59.107 indicated by this problem of destroying the ecology and which is very 00:24:59.140 --> 00:25:01.607 fashionable. 00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:07.476 Hopefully it's more than just a fashionable trend and it's not that we are 00:25:07.509 --> 00:25:12.717 , we don't have any more land to go into it. This continent is half empty. 00:25:12.750 --> 00:25:18.086 The fact is that when we isolate one person within a large enough Let's 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.756 say corrupted environment, this person is going to pay and his family is 00:25:21.789 --> 00:25:24.717 going to pay his Children and everybody else is going to pay. So it 00:25:24.750 --> 00:25:28.566 doesn't matter if there is a 50,000 square miles of wilderness when when I 00:25:28.599 --> 00:25:33.786 cannot reach them or when I can when I am separated from from it. So that 00:25:33.819 --> 00:25:38.447 from a point of view of what the earth, my answer to us, I would say the 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:44.107 earth can cancel us in in a split second and then start all over again. 00:25:44.140 --> 00:25:50.397 But if if we if we disappear somehow, the genius of the earth is going to 00:25:50.430 --> 00:25:54.256 disappear and we defeat not just ourselves but the animal kingdom, the 00:25:54.289 --> 00:25:58.947 vegetable kingdom and the solar system maybe. So we are very fundamental 00:25:58.980 --> 00:26:02.167 and we should be very careful because the responsibility we have is 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:07.447 incredible and all the future is in in front of us in the past is just a 00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:13.207 little flicker. Are you really saying that the earth is a mega structure 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:16.947 in a way. Yes. But in other ways it's a miniature of the universe and we 00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:23.107 are and we are miniatures of miniatures. So we are, in a way we are more 00:26:23.140 --> 00:26:27.637 in our complexity, we are more infinite, that whole galaxy, each one of us 00:26:27.670 --> 00:26:33.859 , and that's why we are so, so unique and so so important.