WEBVTT 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:07.740 where are we going? Where we were just well you're getting you're getting 00:00:10.419 --> 00:00:17.337 with this question. You're really getting into into a problem of faith. 00:00:17.370 --> 00:00:22.727 Um this is nobody can answer this with any certainty. I have been 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:28.567 convinced me. I use a blackboard some many, many years ago, very impressed 00:00:28.600 --> 00:00:35.906 by by a lecture by Reinhold Niebuhr who said that, you know, here is God 00:00:35.939 --> 00:00:39.207 the ideal state. I mean I think we do the same thing whatever the 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:47.240 definition. Yes, man and the predominant 00:00:47.939 --> 00:00:52.997 concept, religious concept has been that we make straight progress up here 00:00:53.030 --> 00:00:57.616 and this is what paolo believes. We are somehow okay, I won't I won't 00:00:57.649 --> 00:01:00.747 inject what he believes, but a lot of people think that, you know, we're 00:01:00.780 --> 00:01:07.857 getting better and better and better. Um and 00:01:07.890 --> 00:01:14.576 and a lot of theologians and and I think that this relationship between 00:01:14.609 --> 00:01:20.227 the idea that we aspired to and man and what we are remains pretty much 00:01:20.260 --> 00:01:25.167 the same, but it's moving forward. You know, it constantly changes, but we 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.727 aren't going to be any better. We changed our thinking. Maybe someday 00:01:28.760 --> 00:01:33.717 we'll learn how not to make warm not to live Rich love Richard Nixon or in 00:01:33.750 --> 00:01:37.936 some way become become improve ourselves, but we'll make other mistakes, 00:01:37.969 --> 00:01:42.777 we'll move forward. And I think what we have to do with our eyes up here, 00:01:42.810 --> 00:01:46.206 deal with the realities. 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:51.857 We do need some utopias. We do need some ideal states that we dream up, 00:01:51.890 --> 00:01:56.247 that change from generation to generation. What we want out of to help 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:02.176 move this program, but I think that the emphasis is on what we want out of 00:02:02.209 --> 00:02:10.209 life, what is good for men and let God take care of May I make the night 00:02:12.139 --> 00:02:16.406 but Mhm uh 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:23.207 oh this is let's say 5, 5 millions of years ago. 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:26.207 This is 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:30.767 or let's say 00:02:30.800 --> 00:02:35.987 as far as I'm concerned, as far as what science says, this was matter and 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:43.876 energy, this was a glimmer of consciousness and then you keep going and 00:02:43.909 --> 00:02:51.386 going and going now. What is Utopia for? This is reality for that. What is 00:02:51.419 --> 00:02:56.446 Utopia for this for this is reality for that and so on. So all those 00:02:56.479 --> 00:03:01.837 utopias are becoming reality by the consciousness developing from zero 00:03:01.870 --> 00:03:08.087 into what it is now and by developing further into what you might call God 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:13.087 if as a as a hypothesis. So, religion to me is the simulation of something 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:21.120 that might happen if we want to strongly enough George business about Mr 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:26.846 salaries faith. Yet. Mr Langer talks about human nature as ecstatic. I'm 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:31.707 changing to me. This is a statement of faith, which I think distinguishes 00:03:31.740 --> 00:03:37.606 Mhm. This attitude really has a theological at Yes, Put God on one level 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:42.147 and the human on middle level is totally split one from the other. What Mr 00:03:42.180 --> 00:03:45.497 seems to be talking about is is simply consciousness simply and continuing 00:03:45.530 --> 00:03:49.666 with consciousness. But I see no, no continuum and the idea of human 00:03:49.699 --> 00:03:52.786 nature is static and unchanging and certainly now we're at the beginning 00:03:52.819 --> 00:03:55.497 of things like we don't know if they'll actually come about things like 00:03:55.530 --> 00:04:00.427 the beginning of information abundance, the end of material scarcity and 00:04:00.460 --> 00:04:03.737 the end of say male female psychic polarity. All of these things are 00:04:03.770 --> 00:04:07.446 happening now and they indicate that human nature is not a static, 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:12.876 unchanging concept, which to me is a heavily theological uh, there seems 00:04:12.909 --> 00:04:17.770 to be talking simply about consciousness which evolves true continuum. 00:04:17.829 --> 00:04:19.829 Should I take that first? First of all? I mean, I think the whole, the 00:04:20.829 --> 00:04:27.897 whole concept, Yes, right. And I don't see a contradiction, but let me 00:04:27.930 --> 00:04:30.637 first get something else out of the way. The whole concept that man 00:04:30.670 --> 00:04:37.106 evolved out of the lizard or is being touted in some scientific circles. 00:04:37.139 --> 00:04:40.937 That's number one. I mean, this whole evolutionary Darwin thing, I don't 00:04:40.970 --> 00:04:45.306 know, but I'm not qualified to discuss levi Strauss, Kahn says there is no 00:04:45.339 --> 00:04:50.137 such thing as as as primitive man, man is man. What I'm talking about is 00:04:50.170 --> 00:04:57.406 much more man's biological needs and his biological, oh, 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:03.106 existence in the way that when it dribbles does it in his marvelous books. 00:05:03.139 --> 00:05:08.286 And to me, the predominant thing at the moment is man's need for good, 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:15.627 clean, fresh air. It is you would not or you would and when you come to 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:22.056 faith, my faith is that man with his present biological, with his changing 00:05:22.089 --> 00:05:27.577 spiritual aspiration Is a very good, nice animal. You know, there's 00:05:27.610 --> 00:05:32.017 nothing wrong with that. Let's accommodate him. That to me is a problem 00:05:32.050 --> 00:05:36.096 right now and I'm not concerned about what's happening 50 generations from 00:05:36.129 --> 00:05:40.017 that right now you mentioned the family for example, as essentially 00:05:40.050 --> 00:05:44.827 important if what the population experts tell the truth and I don't know 00:05:44.860 --> 00:05:48.726 if they are not. The family is what the family is being seen now 00:05:48.759 --> 00:05:54.377 increasingly on some writers of scarcity, it drives really and we don't 00:05:54.410 --> 00:05:58.587 have enough and we come into a state information, abundance of material 00:05:58.620 --> 00:06:03.187 abundance. The family will simply become one of many ways to raise 00:06:03.220 --> 00:06:07.887 Children. So it's a now it doesn't seem as if these basic needs that we 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:12.827 talked about our basic to our nature, that they were living in a state of 00:06:12.860 --> 00:06:17.166 great material and great information. Well then again, you get into it, 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:21.897 you get into a question of faith. I mean, I personally happen to be still 00:06:21.930 --> 00:06:26.277 convinced that some form of of father mother Children relationship or 00:06:26.310 --> 00:06:30.817 whatever you call it. However open it is, you know, a new concept, 00:06:30.850 --> 00:06:35.207 whatever our changing attitude towards sexual morality might be that that 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:42.906 basic cellular unit, if you will of society, it is necessary that Le 00:06:42.939 --> 00:06:48.556 Corbusier and and a lot of city planners have contributed towards its own 00:06:48.589 --> 00:06:50.606 destruction 00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:55.496 Of the family life that people want to live down on the ground and not up 00:06:55.529 --> 00:07:00.087 in the 365th floor, some place that you want to have contact with nature 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:04.486 etc, etc, etc. But that's an article of faith. But but but but but to me, 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:10.156 those words that you said are pure theology. 00:07:10.189 --> 00:07:13.777 But I think what what what what Mr Solari is saying is pure theology. I 00:07:13.810 --> 00:07:17.406 think we have different theologies here. 00:07:17.439 --> 00:07:21.806 The evolutionary development of consciousness. There isn't God here. The 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:26.137 human there. Yeah, but I'm not talking about consciousness. I leave that 00:07:26.170 --> 00:07:31.147 to the theologian. I'm talking about man's biological needs at the moment 00:07:31.180 --> 00:07:37.536 in our present state of of american society are being very severely 00:07:37.569 --> 00:07:42.767 damaged by what you talk about biological needs. My mind by culture and 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:46.666 consciousness and especially something like family and its centrality as 00:07:46.699 --> 00:07:51.096 as 00:07:51.129 --> 00:07:54.746 biological, biological. 00:07:54.779 --> 00:07:57.656 I 00:07:57.689 --> 00:08:04.137 think that if we if we accept this statement that the biological needs are 00:08:04.170 --> 00:08:08.767 what what the american civilization is to seek for. Now, I think we are in 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:14.796 very bad shape because personally I like to I had to be biologically fit 00:08:14.829 --> 00:08:20.967 so that for instance, I can enjoy a poet, a piece of good reading or a 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:27.036 piece of good music or something. But if I if the scope of my life is to 00:08:27.069 --> 00:08:32.386 breathe clean air, then I would be better off to be a lizard because 00:08:32.419 --> 00:08:37.907 there's more satisfaction there. It's a fully biologically 00:08:37.940 --> 00:08:40.907 implemented 00:08:40.940 --> 00:08:45.496 phenomenon. So I think that we confuse the instrument with the end, I must 00:08:45.529 --> 00:08:52.177 be healthy so that I can be creative. But I if I cannot create myself just 00:08:52.210 --> 00:08:56.677 so that I can be healthy because that doesn't make any sense. Help here's 00:08:56.710 --> 00:09:01.506 a these are the premises for something else. 00:09:01.539 --> 00:09:06.417 I have some sneaking suspicions which was wondering whether you confirm or 00:09:06.450 --> 00:09:13.307 dispute. I see in your mythology methodology, you've already told us that 00:09:13.340 --> 00:09:18.506 thermodynamics and quantum physics have had quite a 00:09:18.539 --> 00:09:24.197 effect on developing your methodology. But what disciplines would you say 00:09:24.230 --> 00:09:32.230 have had a major effect on the spiritual. So, the archaeology method that 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:38.006 you developed over the years? Well, you know, if you're familiar with 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:43.736 right, well, he in a way is one of the clearest. Well, I know, I don't 00:09:43.769 --> 00:09:48.807 know enough to say he's one of the clearest. But to me it was a clear Yeah. 00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:56.840 A mind that quite clearly indicated that we cannot and he's a christian 00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:04.787 catholic, that we cannot considered technology, for instance, as something 00:10:04.820 --> 00:10:10.006 exterior to us, We must proceed in such a way as to interior rise 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:16.307 technology. So the technology becomes what it's meant to be an extension 00:10:16.340 --> 00:10:23.327 of the sensitization of ourselves into something more sensitive. So in a 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:26.476 way there is not so much difference between the biological technology of 00:10:26.509 --> 00:10:31.427 technology on my hands and the technology of a tool that somehow extends 00:10:31.460 --> 00:10:36.146 the part that the ability to do something. But again, we are so young at 00:10:36.179 --> 00:10:39.486 it. We are so primitive that it were so awful that every time we use 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:45.346 technology, we know we oversimplify the problem, we are doing sort of the 00:10:45.379 --> 00:10:53.006 pliers. Very primitive kind of hand, or even very skillful 00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:55.407 radiation 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:59.297 thing is a very, very poor. 00:10:59.330 --> 00:11:05.276 If we reject technology or something exterior to ourselves ontological 00:11:05.309 --> 00:11:09.467 speaker, then evidently we are in a bad shape because technology is going 00:11:09.500 --> 00:11:16.766 to kill us. We must make a technology such a subtle instrument for for 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:21.287 transforming matter into spirit again that we are going to accelerate in a 00:11:21.320 --> 00:11:26.947 way this process of becoming more conscious, more lively, more creation of 00:11:26.980 --> 00:11:30.106 the entity. 00:11:30.139 --> 00:11:32.707 Yes, Mr Griswold, 00:11:32.740 --> 00:11:36.217 You mentioned that you did not think that people really wanted to live on 00:11:36.250 --> 00:11:38.707 360. 00:11:38.740 --> 00:11:43.016 Now we have an example in Chicago, the Hancock building which is very far 00:11:43.049 --> 00:11:48.817 from Mr salaries archaeology, But it's also a step above the one 00:11:48.850 --> 00:11:53.356 functional empire state building concept. And it seems that this is to a 00:11:53.389 --> 00:11:57.606 certain extent working and making people 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:05.307 well, I think that remains to be seen american bandstand. Um 00:12:05.340 --> 00:12:10.986 you have in every in in in every novelty, you have the novelty of here. 00:12:11.019 --> 00:12:16.236 You have this novel. I think if if the Hancock building the rent up there 00:12:16.269 --> 00:12:21.037 in the 99th floor was a little lower and all your friends didn't know how 00:12:21.070 --> 00:12:27.037 much money you had the appeal and the happiness would be would be somewhat 00:12:27.070 --> 00:12:32.846 less. It is certainly, I mean, I've been up there and I find, but it 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.736 doesn't matter whether I find it stifling or not. Um I think what does 00:12:36.769 --> 00:12:44.037 matter is that it is at best a very partial solution for people who can 00:12:44.070 --> 00:12:49.827 afford to get down on the ground floor, push the right button, get their 00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:53.687 chauffeur to bring their cadillac up to the front door and go out to the 00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:58.976 net, out to the dunes or go out into nature. But you see if you take that 00:12:59.009 --> 00:13:03.106 symptom and you make that into a great big, big city where you really 00:13:03.139 --> 00:13:07.447 really don't have much of an escape where you don't have the multiplicity 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.837 of choices that we still have, but that we keep narrowing, then I get a 00:13:11.870 --> 00:13:14.736 little frightened. In other words, if you're all confined to live in 00:13:14.769 --> 00:13:18.167 Hancock buildings, I think we're going to be pretty pretty much like 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:25.506 robots. I mean that to me is a rebellion 86 1986. Kind of frightened of 00:13:25.539 --> 00:13:29.207 anything. That 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:34.876 yeah, that's where you really fall to pieces because you see, you seem to 00:13:34.909 --> 00:13:42.909 , you seem to say that we can afford the the constable Ization, but we 00:13:43.710 --> 00:13:48.067 cannot afford the non cast civilization. And I'm saying that the 00:13:48.100 --> 00:13:51.596 capitalization destroying us because we cannot afford it. Nobody can 00:13:51.629 --> 00:13:56.077 afford it. It's against life. It's against the logistics of life, is 00:13:56.110 --> 00:14:01.037 against the this any sense that we can make out of the fact that we are 00:14:01.070 --> 00:14:06.447 not pure spirits and it's really killing us. And you're saying that you 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:10.006 don't you don't need the, Which is not what I am advocating the equivalent 00:14:10.039 --> 00:14:15.756 of the anchor. You need to spread the three billions which we are and 00:14:15.789 --> 00:14:18.996 possibly four or five billions before we can reach a level maybe six 00:14:19.029 --> 00:14:24.486 billions and we can spread ourselves thin on one layer and have nature 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:29.307 with ourselves, be able to reach whatever you want to reach and have a 00:14:29.340 --> 00:14:37.340 happy life. This is not utopia. This is a, some kind of a twisted fantasy 00:14:37.899 --> 00:14:44.726 that nobody, but nobody in this continent can maintain anymore. 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:49.687 No, it's not a twisted fantasy. It's a matter of arithmetic. It's a matter 00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:54.986 of plain arithmetic, bucky Fuller has figured out. And I don't subscribe 00:14:55.019 --> 00:14:57.657 to everything that bucky Fuller said by any means, but he's figured out 00:14:57.690 --> 00:15:01.376 that the entire world population, whatever it is at the moment, and you 00:15:01.409 --> 00:15:04.596 can get them on the island of Manhattan and there's still enough room for 00:15:04.629 --> 00:15:09.006 them to dance the twist. It is an absolute myth that we're running out of 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:14.917 space. That's a myth. Just badly organizing, ruining this space. We're 00:15:14.950 --> 00:15:19.726 calling it all up, but we're not running out. And I'm not talking about 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:25.047 that. I'm talking about the cost of having you run around to do your 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:32.827 things. You see if we some, if we add up the cost of the car reality, what 00:15:32.860 --> 00:15:39.937 are we building, manufacturing, maintenance, fueling, repair, junking, 00:15:39.970 --> 00:15:47.626 highway systems, uh, road system, bypass systems, garages, reaper, shops, 00:15:47.659 --> 00:15:50.957 parking lots, 00:15:50.990 --> 00:15:57.526 insurance, mortgages. I mean the whole castle and we consider that most 00:15:57.559 --> 00:16:02.467 the bulk of this enormous castle is made so that we can get to the point 00:16:02.500 --> 00:16:07.307 where we can start to perform because I have to get there to do something. 00:16:07.340 --> 00:16:11.396 So, and I can do something only when I'm getting there. Well this 00:16:11.429 --> 00:16:17.967 enormous, this gigantic, costly structure that we build up is to allow 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:23.327 ourselves american citizens to reach the point of performance. If we take 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:28.687 this and we and we think about it, then we must decide that something went 00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:34.297 absolutely out of because this is, this doesn't make sense. I mean this is 00:16:34.330 --> 00:16:40.726 this is taking the beautiful earth that we have consume it to the bones in 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:48.759 fuels in iron, in plastics, rubbers so that someone somewhere can start to 00:16:49.070 --> 00:16:52.606 write a letter 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:57.307 work machine. 00:16:57.340 --> 00:17:02.657 I mean, we are putting all our lives in logistics and logistics should be 00:17:02.690 --> 00:17:07.107 an instrument, a simple, unobtrusive 00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:12.086 concealed instrument for life to develop and what we have now the whole 00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:18.887 continent is becoming a logistical device for what? 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:22.326 Well, I have a little more confidence than you do. I mean, first of all, 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:27.316 you know, now we're getting into economics. Um, we're talking partly if I 00:17:27.349 --> 00:17:30.066 understand you write about priorities and I think they're terribly 00:17:30.099 --> 00:17:36.246 misplaced in our society and we're talking partly again of a style of 00:17:36.279 --> 00:17:39.647 living. Now, I'm very much opposed for instance, just to take a little 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:44.697 thing out of it. I'm very much much much opposed to drowning our cities 00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:49.887 and our life and our existence in automobiles. And I also know as we all 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:55.407 do that carbon monoxide and all the poison that comes out of the stand. 00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.117 Things are very bad for us. I also know as we all do that. It consumes an 00:18:00.150 --> 00:18:05.217 inordinate amount of space and energy and energy and and look terribly 00:18:05.250 --> 00:18:10.157 ugly and we've got to do something about it. But you will not be able and 00:18:10.190 --> 00:18:14.556 I will not be able and we should not be able to take the tremendous new 00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:20.847 freedom that autumn ability has given Henry ford people have Now the first 00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:24.796 time in human history, the ability to move around privately, not heard it 00:18:24.829 --> 00:18:30.476 up and see the world and take the family out to a picnic and go to go to 00:18:30.509 --> 00:18:35.056 the Grand Canyon. And and this privilege you cannot take. You cannot. We 00:18:35.089 --> 00:18:39.836 have to learn not to run away from our technology, but to dominate it to 00:18:39.869 --> 00:18:44.726 master to find a way to have this autumn ability to have everybody have 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.276 this automobile without following up the earth. You're talking about the 00:18:48.309 --> 00:18:53.657 use of automobile for recreation is one for learning. Yeah, but that's not 00:18:53.690 --> 00:18:59.467 what we are doing with automobiles. Were using for survival. I'll build 00:18:59.500 --> 00:19:04.357 mass transit for the necessities don't make any sense max. You have mass 00:19:04.390 --> 00:19:10.836 transit in your elevators. And my God, that's so 00:19:10.869 --> 00:19:16.347 that there is a very simple reason why yours doesn't work. The resistance 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:21.647 is hard to break. No. Now we're getting into specifics that I'm willing to 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.826 discuss. But don't tell me you're a city can work without mass transit. I 00:19:24.859 --> 00:19:28.236 mean you have to have vertical elevators. 00:19:28.269 --> 00:19:32.657 What I object, what I object to the term mass transit is that we know that 00:19:32.690 --> 00:19:37.197 we are serving a pancake which is so enormous that there is no such a 00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:40.586 thing as mass transit for it. You can only have single individual transit 00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:46.579 , which is what the autumn abilities, which is why the system doesn't work. 00:19:46.690 --> 00:19:48.690 No, you can't reverse it. You can't, you can't. Oh yes. You collect your 00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:54.056 city, you collect your city, then you start to take something away, then 00:19:54.089 --> 00:19:57.566 you start to walk. You know, you give them something you don't take away 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:01.306 to give them their legs back. 00:20:01.339 --> 00:20:04.736 Our mass transit usually doesn't work in cities because it's this pancake 00:20:04.769 --> 00:20:09.756 like structure and because you can't run a train out to every suburb. And 00:20:09.789 --> 00:20:13.266 if you're centralized and the more you centralize the better mass transit 00:20:13.299 --> 00:20:21.299 works well that there's a limit to that too. Mm hmm. That is impractical. 00:20:22.910 --> 00:20:28.217 You you try to keep getting back into the, into the city into the high 00:20:28.250 --> 00:20:30.707 concentration. 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:34.536 You have to find a lot better solutions than we have right now to make 00:20:34.569 --> 00:20:40.707 that attractive enough. People just like their back patio and and bobby. 00:20:40.740 --> 00:20:45.826 Some of them you have to open up multiplicity of choices. 00:20:45.859 --> 00:20:49.597 Never seen. There's the coercion that we never considered because we live 00:20:49.630 --> 00:20:53.967 with them. We don't consider them. What what what does it matter for me to 00:20:54.000 --> 00:21:00.417 drive one hour a day? But the price of it? We ignore it completely. But 00:21:00.450 --> 00:21:05.566 there's a there's a price tag which is fantastic. It includes the 00:21:05.599 --> 00:21:09.207 destruction of the resources of the earth. But this is not. This is not a 00:21:09.240 --> 00:21:13.296 single thing that you just ignore and say, Well, I have my courtyard, I 00:21:13.329 --> 00:21:17.976 have my barbecue. Well, sometimes you may not have it someday. You may not 00:21:18.009 --> 00:21:24.076 have it period. You might not be here. Um, you made a comment in the midst 00:21:24.109 --> 00:21:28.756 of this, of this discussion about that, that seemed to imply that the use 00:21:28.789 --> 00:21:33.086 of automobiles for things like recreation and leisure would be would be 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:38.226 acceptable to you. Is this true with my interpreter? If if the automobile 00:21:38.259 --> 00:21:41.907 is not for an instrument for survival, but it is an instrument for for 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:45.627 pleasure or leisure, then evidently it's a very good instrument. But if I 00:21:45.660 --> 00:21:52.387 had to use if this the network of things of physical things which exist 00:21:52.420 --> 00:21:57.387 compels me, coerced me to use the automobile for for a regional survival, 00:21:57.420 --> 00:22:02.217 which means brought to a job and then come back to the job be one single 00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:06.857 within with three tons of metal surrounding me and so on. That evidently 00:22:06.890 --> 00:22:12.107 this doesn't make sense. This is really a criminal act against humanity. 00:22:12.140 --> 00:22:17.276 So I must in in trying to see the future in trying to plan for the future 00:22:17.309 --> 00:22:22.437 , I must realize that the commuting, for instance is something that I must 00:22:22.470 --> 00:22:28.546 get rid of. How did you get rid of it in the bulk of it by using the legs 00:22:28.579 --> 00:22:32.847 instead of using the automobile. How can you use the leg in in Bethlehem? 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:36.306 If if I had to walk 10 miles evidently I cannot walk 10 miles. So I'm 00:22:36.339 --> 00:22:41.036 going back to the this problem of having putting down a grid and then 00:22:41.069 --> 00:22:44.986 start to move things on it. And I know that mass transit doesn't work 00:22:45.019 --> 00:22:49.177 because I'm dealing with a pancake that has to serve thousands and 00:22:49.210 --> 00:22:56.107 thousands of units so I cannot speeding in that kind of diaspora. The only 00:22:56.140 --> 00:23:01.177 way I can conquer this problem is by shortening the distances. Why why 00:23:01.210 --> 00:23:05.107 would we go vertical? Because the distances are only 10 ft about What 00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:09.667 about getting from between one archaeology and another? Would you is there 00:23:09.700 --> 00:23:14.937 room for automobiles in your college or at least outside of again, not 00:23:14.970 --> 00:23:19.927 being not being a plan for a city but a diagram in the diagram I say the 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:24.607 automobile stops at the edge of the city so you can store automobiles 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:30.207 comment period. Mr piper. The one thing I think that you're forgetting. 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:33.736 Question one, the similarities 00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:39.637 postponing is that you can have all the land area that you want to the 00:23:39.670 --> 00:23:42.506 people of the population 00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:48.117 equality and there he is going to deteriorate at the way using your 00:23:48.150 --> 00:23:55.066 resources right now? Mr Solari miniaturize and cut down on ization of 00:23:55.099 --> 00:24:00.707 those resources or cut down on the waist that is inherently 00:24:00.740 --> 00:24:05.296 but I don't trust our present technology or present ideas towards 00:24:05.329 --> 00:24:08.816 technology Two 00:24:08.849 --> 00:24:15.907 give us a solution. You're flying everybody's 00:24:15.940 --> 00:24:20.857 well. Mhm. I didn't say everybody ought to split up. Concentration is 00:24:20.890 --> 00:24:25.726 taking the concept, the concentration is taking place quite natural and I 00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:32.717 think it's a very artificial and unrealistic concept for the Minneapolis 00:24:32.750 --> 00:24:38.536 experimental city to try and build a totally independent new city out 00:24:38.569 --> 00:24:46.569 there in the sticks. I will explain more more tonight I think 00:24:47.210 --> 00:24:55.210 Mr salary and I a complete agreement on the fact that our society is 00:24:55.220 --> 00:24:59.647 disintegrating very rapidly before our eyes and that we have to 00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:05.976 reintegrate. We have to bring things together again. Walk to work as far 00:25:06.009 --> 00:25:11.566 as we can as much as possible having different age groups live together 00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:15.826 and so on. Which we've all had before. They have to integrate society and 00:25:15.859 --> 00:25:21.627 interest racial integration but by income groups by by all the various 00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:26.617 pluralistic things. We have age groups et cetera. And the other thing 00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:31.127 where we totally agree is that we are very recklessly exploiting the 00:25:31.160 --> 00:25:36.006 resources of the earth and we have to start doing some. 00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:42.836 Then we come into the methodology which by lovely slip Freudian slip of 00:25:42.869 --> 00:25:48.607 the tongue. One of our questions for a moment confused with mythology and 00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:53.076 that's where we where we differ. I just like to be a little more practical 00:25:53.109 --> 00:25:58.917 and right now and here but I grab him not only grant him the right but 00:25:58.950 --> 00:26:04.496 greatly admire and hold it very necessary. But we also have to set up 00:26:04.529 --> 00:26:07.566 ultimate ideas 00:26:07.599 --> 00:26:11.607 and ideals question 00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:16.597 Give me the feeling that this is hilarious work is not great. Yeah right 00:26:16.630 --> 00:26:19.607 now 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:23.907 did you draw continues? 00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:30.006 It seems to want to start the earth. 00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:35.506 I very much right now. 00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:40.607 Yeah. What's the problem? 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:46.107 He said 00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:51.506 this is getting away from this discussion from Mr salary though. What is 00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:55.367 the structure we are? Where are you going to set the limits on this 00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:57.506 vertical? 00:26:57.539 --> 00:27:02.506 Oh, I mean if I if I gave you numbers I would be an idiot evidently 00:27:02.539 --> 00:27:07.806 because the limit today might not be Might not make very much sense 50 00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:12.347 years from now and I don't I don't want to even begin to put limits. But 00:27:12.380 --> 00:27:17.516 definitely I would not suggest that we should build At 300 stories or 200 00:27:17.549 --> 00:27:21.736 stories, building 50 stories, it's plenty 100 stories more than what we 00:27:21.769 --> 00:27:28.647 need. So there there's the technology is there the means are there, it's 00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:33.897 the will of the, what we might call the vision of the victorian charity 00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:37.536 which is not there. You don't want to get ahead of structural engineers 00:27:37.569 --> 00:27:43.336 then you want to let them Well, I think we can help each other. And this 00:27:43.369 --> 00:27:46.836 is uh more of a question of your history you were with right when he was 00:27:46.869 --> 00:27:50.786 doing broad acre city and then on his deathbed or when he's kind of 00:27:50.819 --> 00:27:53.256 playing death 00:27:53.289 --> 00:27:56.927 and start talking about the Mile high city. Well, I got news for you. The 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:02.217 mile high city. It's as bad as the pancake because the needle is not 00:28:02.250 --> 00:28:08.076 better than a pancake. What you need is a solid see as we are not needles 00:28:08.109 --> 00:28:12.607 of fantasies, but we are solid. That's what we have to go about because 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:16.467 only the vegetable is flat and it's flat for a simple reason that has to 00:28:16.500 --> 00:28:21.597 receive energy from the sun. The question is how serious, right? When he 00:28:21.630 --> 00:28:26.076 was done envisioning this. Well, he, you know, he liked to play pranks. I 00:28:26.109 --> 00:28:30.107 mean he was very, you know, 00:28:30.140 --> 00:28:33.576 tall building engineers. Fazlur Khan is one of them were saying right now 00:28:33.609 --> 00:28:36.467 , you know, right said we're gonna do this Mile high city and they're 00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:40.526 going t he mr right? You know, we can build this. But all we're going to 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:43.746 have is a structure with no roommates. And I think it is right, is the one 00:28:43.779 --> 00:28:48.927 who is laughing well ahead of the structural, trying to see the point. 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.347 It's a good point that you might have to end up by building a solid in 00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:56.607 order to keep it up. But as you said, technology might do much better 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:00.927 technology things it can do. But the point is that by by doing this, you 00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:06.546 segregate as much as you do that. So if you want to get segregation out of 00:29:06.579 --> 00:29:11.046 the context of life. You have to come up with a solid with the body not 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:14.867 with the leaf, not with the needle because both of them somehow 00:29:14.900 --> 00:29:19.326 handicapped and kept in a lower level of consciousness. Because the 00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:27.359 swiftness, what we need is a swiftness within the organism. 00:29:28.940 --> 00:29:34.056 I'd like to come back and ask a question myself will probably no change 00:29:34.089 --> 00:29:38.806 the current of our discussion. Um I think it's Mumford who made the 00:29:38.839 --> 00:29:41.006 observation 00:29:41.039 --> 00:29:48.127 Utopias, the classical utopias from plato more and so on. And even the 00:29:48.160 --> 00:29:52.717 dystopias of the current century all have one thing in common and that is 00:29:52.750 --> 00:29:58.826 that their totalitarian that is that they are so completely direct. Human 00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:06.859 life dissent becomes impossible. The person who cannot or will not fit in 00:30:07.109 --> 00:30:11.056 must be eliminated. That seems to be true of the ones that I'm familiar 00:30:11.089 --> 00:30:19.089 with. How does the dissenter, how does the free spirit fit into what looks 00:30:19.569 --> 00:30:23.407 like another? 00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.387 Well, I suppose that for a moment that I'm I'm right in saying that this 00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:31.516 is it's a swifter kind of device. What does that mean? It means that for 00:30:31.549 --> 00:30:34.207 instance, the 00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.097 all the server systems and all the bureaucracy involved. The server system 00:30:38.130 --> 00:30:42.847 would shrink. So garbage collection, not not anymore. 50 trucks and then 00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:47.076 100 drivers and so on. May be the equivalent of three trucks and three 00:30:47.109 --> 00:30:51.556 drivers. So you you shrink the service and you shrink the bureaucracy, the 00:30:51.589 --> 00:30:56.857 administration of it? What do you do that in all the other systems serving 00:30:56.890 --> 00:31:03.976 the city from police to health, to all the retrieval and delivery systems 00:31:04.009 --> 00:31:11.006 ? You end up with something that compared to something else. What exists, 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:19.039 has a bureaucratic machinery which is a fraction of what it was there and 00:31:19.640 --> 00:31:25.177 the body of the toilet which is also smaller. Well, you can say evidently 00:31:25.210 --> 00:31:31.627 if you are, if you are autocrat, if somebody is ahead of this, you can 00:31:31.660 --> 00:31:37.407 control it better. The fact is that it doesn't have to be one person, 00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:41.127 the body social and the people that are controlling the machine and they 00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:43.806 can be more directly involved in controlling the machine because of the 00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:50.387 bureaucracies model. Because the the demands put upon the environment, the 00:31:50.420 --> 00:31:55.556 the energy and the space and so on are all reduced. So it seems to me that 00:31:55.589 --> 00:31:59.816 with a minimum of willingness within the society of not being 00:31:59.849 --> 00:32:06.806 autocratically dry driven, this is the system that is going to do it. 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:12.107 But it's so it's only, it's only a necessity. It's not sufficiency. You 00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:18.937 can always find, you know, the demagogue. Yeah. With the elimination of 00:32:18.970 --> 00:32:25.697 community, You have one alternative. Another alternative would be marshall. 00:32:25.730 --> 00:32:30.457 McLuhan ish, instant communication with everyone. People can still be 00:32:30.490 --> 00:32:36.776 spread. Okay, now, what do you think of this as another? Yeah, I think 00:32:36.809 --> 00:32:41.259 that this is not an alternative. This is part of areality