firms mainly. No. Um after after I left uh the law firm
I had,
I decided I'd come home for a while. And so I decided afterwards I'd go
back to phoenix and I consider that I had very good qualifications to get
another job. Now, I could have gone back to them and asked for help, you
know, uh if they didn't have a position, they could probably help me get
another job. But I decided I was gonna do it on my own. So I went to an
employment agency and they said you have very good qualifications, but in
this time they don't hire any mexicans. And so he says phoenix in phoenix
, but you've been working. That's right. They don't hire any mexicans and
they don't hire any indians. And she didn't say anything about blacks, I
guess blacks were non people I don't know. And so that's another lesson I
learned. Um Most people can't do everything on their own. You need someone
to help you along this life. And and so I took up um a friend of mine who
was a senator uh in the state legislature said if I ever was in town when
the set when the Senate was in session and I need a job, come and see him.
So I did you know from from that agency, I went to stand in the
legislature was in session, so I went and got a job with the Senate. Oh
yeah, so qualifications. Uh Didn't mean anything. No, not really. And you
even told him that you had that exact, well, no, I have, you know, you you
submit your resume, don't you? And so you had already worked already
worked for for for cox Lockwood and Lockwood attorneys which was a very
prominent firm especially after they got the Lockwoods join the firm. Uh
It was considered that Judge Lockwood, no Alfred Long Quinn, he was more
an attorney's attorney attorneys would come to him and to consult with him
and Lorna when she joined the firm she had been working with I think some
government agency, you know, this is during the war. And so when she
decided to go into uh practice and she came and joined her father and her
mr cox was the son in law. He had he was married to a Lock one. And so you
know, so all that is, you know, I presented my resume and you've been
working for a couple of years. Yeah two or three years. And this
employment agency just made that statement that they would try to get you
a job, it was I'll be wasting my time, you know, so what do you do go out
and starve. But anyway uh so later on and these were, you know, not the
legislature jobs were just for the term of the legislature. So it wasn't a
permanent job. And after that I went to work for the industrial commission.
And then after that I went I worked for a issue for several years in
Tempe. And when I left there I was in charge of whole peril for a issue
and I just wonder how I did that. But they gave me the job. So you know, I
said do it and I said okay, I'll do it.
And and and then after that I went to work with a C. I. O. And we're here
to there and then um I went to work for the federal government because by
that time I figured that if anybody had a good retirement plan, it was the
federal government. And you can't you can't tell you how many people told
me not to go work with the federal government, that they were just, it was
just a lousy place to work In four or in or whatever. And so I did go to
work with the federal room and I stayed there for 30 years. That was your
longest employment, right? And so that's uh until I retired in that office.
Did you work in? I worked in with the Social Security administration. Mhm.
And I was administrative assistant or executive assistant or secretary.
And they give us all kinds of fancy name, but I was in the administrative
part of that uh in phoenix. And where were you living in phoenix during
these years? Well, first we moved the folks to Tempe, we purchased our
home and temping by that time my brothers had come back for more and door
was back, you know, everybody was coming back and and uh schooling was
important and all that. So we moved to Tempe so that those of us who could
could take advantage of going to college and uh so we live in Tempe for a
while and then We lived there several years and then in the early 60s we
had a house built in south phoenix and we lived there for about 30 years
or something. Oh so you continue to live with your siblings with your
sister? Yes. Uh huh. Yeah. We took we were my father died when we were
living in Tempe and then my mother died when we were living in phoenix by
South mountain. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And 40th uh 40th and baseline, did you
ever consider marrying? Well yeah, but that didn't happen, it just didn't
, it just didn't happen. Right. I don't think you know you ever discount
any any of like the experiences but it just didn't happen.
What about community activities in phoenix? Was there a certain church he
went to? Well yes we would go to a catholic church in particular wherever.
Well in in Tempe we went to Mount Carmel and in phoenix it was first it
was Saint Catherine and then it was holy family
and that was really did that. And and the only thing that was that was
wrong with working with the federal graham is that we were I was
restricted in the political activities that I could participate in and so
I would help in the areas that I was able to help. Mhm. And okay, so you
really couldn't petition? No, I couldn't do anything. And so after I
retired, I said, great, now I can I am free. Well, you know the law is
it's a good law because I could but but I can see where uh it could be
abused both ways. But anyway, when I retired and I said, well now I can I
can do whatever I want as far as politics. And Dora was always very active
in lots of things. And so about that time this guy's Nel um incident
started in them, I guess early 80s. And uh so one of the things that we
were doing was carrying petition and that was the most frightening
experience I've ever had. Do you think that that uh you carry a petition
and and the citizen will sign it or not sign it according to how they feel
about it And that would be the extent of it. You you I did not expect to
have people come and harangue me and harangue the the person that was
going to look at the petition and do everything in their power to prevent
that petition from being signed by this citizen that happened. Oh that was
that was a very frightening experience. Would they threaten you physically
? Well, in my implication. And one time uh it got so bad that Dora got
permission to uh set up tables at the courthouse building and it was
something that they don't do. I mean they don't allow that because many
times these controversial issues going to court. And so but they did allow
us because no one very few people were a lot letting us set up our tables
together names. And and so I remember being there at the courthouse and
and this man coming up and getting it as close as he could to me and tell
me you knew where I lived. And I had been talking to another person that
had and just sign the petition and then and this other person hurt him.
And then they got into a fight. It was really bad were they hired by God's
Nel Well that's what we understand. No, we would set up tables and and
then in a split of and within a few minutes we would be surrounded, we
wish to calm God's Nel goons. Yeah, and we never had. And so we later
found out that God's nell had had a lot of people on the lookout for us
because we didn't have, there wasn't a schedule. You know, we didn't have
a schedule that today we're gonna be at this place tomorrow or at this
time. So, so um we we heard that, you know, all these subcontractors and
employees of subcontracts and all that were on the lookout for us. And so
they'd see us, they called somebody and and within a few moments would be
surrounded and this was all over, all over the oh phoenix. So you were
fighting to preserve South mountain and Bosnia wanted to develop it. Yeah
, he wanted a lot of it is, I mean it's a long, long fight. He wanted he
wanted a lot of the land and he wanted to exchange it for this, but but
initially he wanted a foot into that preserve which eventually got
Mhm. He didn't get it all. But what I remember is that land was donated to
the citizens of phoenix for a park and by the federal government and by
what happened by God's nell getting his foot into the breaking, he broke
that um indeed, whatever it is, he invaded it. And so now it's it's easier
for developers to break those needs that the government has issued dealing
us land. So, I don't know. And who was Dora the leader of this? She
started the whole thing started the whole thing. Yeah. And so and so and
so when when she would go to these council meetings and uh and so one day
she saw mr cox there and so she knew what, you know, he was also against
what was happening. So and saying that's where for the relationship that
we established when we were very young with this family help both sides
because he was uh he Dora called him up and boy there, there was no
stopping them until at the end. And so so anyway, that was that was a very
frightening experience. So you do have to fight for your rights in this
world. That was during the 1980s, uh 1980s
resting. And when did it end? Well, uh sometimes when it went to the
Supreme Court one or two times, I don't know the state, the state Supreme
Court. And I think, I guess the whole thing lasted about three or 4 years.
There was an election that was held. Um um
and then we want the the the proposition was too, yeah, forget the
technicality. So that the city of phoenix couldn't just arbitrarily make
deals with anybody, you know, with the land that belonged to the citizens.
They had to put it to the vote of the people. If if the amount of money
involved was X amount of money. And uh and so that was a proposition that
was paso after that. Any kind of city phoenix wanted to do any kind of
trade off for selling property that belonged to the city.
Um
uh They have to they have to go to the get the vote of the people. So you
were doing that when you were in your sixties, What year did you retire? I
retire, 1984,
So I was what 60 to 61 something. What did your father say when you told
him about how All right, they had made that statement that they didn't
hire any mexicans, I don't remember telling him. I don't remember telling
out. But I I remember one time he told me when I was working with in the
legislature. I remember one time he told me that uh Mr Mcgowan who was one
of the sponsors. Because you had to have had to have response what they
cost pounds sponsors to get these jobs anyway. They did in those days and
one of them had to be the one from your district. And so Mr Mcgowan was
from my district and he and Mr robles were the ones that hired me. And and
so my father said he'd been talking to Mr Mcgowan one day and Mr Mcgowan
was telling him you know what uh what a great job I was doing. So you know
your folks do get feedback on you. Yeah and you were building some
connections there through your work. That would help me. I'm sure when you
went to get other jobs even though they were so prejudiced at that
employment agency. Yes. Yeah. That's
but really you know you you really yeah you have some some ideals and you
think well uh I was really I wasn't too surprised. I was surprised when
when she told me that but I guess I was more realistic uh then I thought I
was because I thought well you know I can do all this. You know I have all
these skills and they say that's what matters if you can do the work,
they'll hire you.
And then after and after I retired, I joined them, uh, Arizona historical
society and the phoenix museum of history and,
and the
um desert caballeros museum when we moved here? And are you all a member
of Arizona first families and Arizona first families to join that. And
Together with my brother and sisters, we established an endowment of the
issue and I was in 1989, what's it called? Uh, we named it after our
parents, Jose Franco and Francisco Ocampo Castle endowment. And so that,
that happened in 1989. And then here and of course we established this um
, artifacts and photographs and manuscripts that we have donated to a
issue, family papers and things. And then here it in Wickenburg, we've
donated artifacts um, to this museum, family artifacts. And we've also
established a fun in the name of our aunt Marcela mm, who was born and
lived and worked all her life here in Williamsburg. So yeah, we have that
established a thing at the, this museum, uh, that your mother's sister,
her baby sister. That's great. So you all really have a sense of your
history. Yes. And uh, we, uh, you know, we, we think it's important that
the presence of mexican american people be acknowledged. We've been, you
know, sort of ignored you, maybe see a phrase here. Uh,
another phrase someplace else, but as part of the history of the
development of this country, Mexican americans were a great part of it.
Sure. And so that depends on who's writing the history. Right. Right. Well
I wrote my dissertation on ranch and farm women in southern Arizona and
included mexican american women. And there were a lot of them there. I
mean there's a lot of mexican american people in that part of Arizona more
so than in this part. I I believe. I don't know. I mean at least you here
you read more about them. Yeah. Yeah. Further south. It was a little
closer but your grandfather's name is very familiar. I know I've read that
name before or Ocampa.
Yeah. Well the operator, well he might have, you know, he might have, we
we don't have any documentation on, on them all we know is what we were
told.
You know, he's mentioned in that book, the new Arizona history book by
Sheridan.
Have you looked at that a new one? I was a fairly like in the last three
or four years. I read one uh entirely Arizona. Yeah, I read that one. I
don't remember seeing his name there. I know I that name is really
familiar and I'm not sure from where might have just been from archives
that there might have been doing. So. I don't, I think that some of these
first families, they are getting discussed in the history books more. Yes
they are now uh they aren't, I told I was at that historical meeting where
he was, when he was signing his Arizona, the book. Arizona was just
published. So he was having some, they're for sale. So I bought one and I
said you have to do one on Wickenburg
and, and uh, it was about a couple of years ago. Mark fry. Do you know him
? He did a book on Wickenburg. Did you talk to him? Oh yeah. Well door did
a lot of, uh, um, had a lot of conversations with him and, but tom
Sheridan was reviewed. His work. I thought that was neat. Were very good.
Oh yes, he did a very good job. Yeah, it's, it was long overdue and you
know from there, someone else can can continue. At least have a good basic
um, book to work from? Uh, okay. Well, do you know where any of those
photos of the picnics are?
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