and if there's some things you don't you don't want to speak to, that's
of course fine too.
Okay.
Yeah
peter will go to the questions that that you submitted to me. Uh huh. Uh
there was and these are my own personal views sure and I'm pretty sure
that other people will have their own person of course about some of these
situations and people
because excuse me because DNA has has been here for 40 years, it means
especially for younger people, you know, they don't you know, this is a
lot of these things are new to them. They weren't they weren't there when
mrs veronica had that confrontation, you know with ted Mitchell and
variety of other things. So I think your ability to bring a firsthand kind
of perspective on this is really important. Okay, uh huh.
There was a lawyer by the name of norman logical,
I didn't know the gentlemen all that well personally, but I know to some
degree about his work and what he tried to do and what he represented and
norman little
as I understand neighborhood history, I was really involved in What was
going on on the neighborhood way back in the 40s
And maybe early 1950s, late 1940s and he knew some of the leadership on
the Navajo and was acquainted with some of the Navajo people that had a
significant role in the running of the tribal government. He also knew
some of the people on the Hopi side and as I listened to some of these
individuals and as I read some of the history of the neighborhood people
norman little at one time was really
mhm. Trying to have, working in, trying to have the Hopi people, the Hopi
tribal government hire him as their lawyer. And it never for some reason
it never really panned out. And it's ironic that as I understand john boy
in was also doing the same thing. John boy Walton is a well known Hopi
lawyer that handled the the land case between Navajo and Hopi, john borden
was also doing the same thing. He came over to Navajo and knew some of the
neighborhood leadership just as well. And the two lawyers were I guess
jogging for position. Um you know with these two tribes and john boy in is
the way anna wanaka would tell it came to
Navajo council and was really interested in being employed by the Navajo
and the Navajo people didn't really support that. And the neighborhood
council rejected
his offer to become a tribal attorney for the Navajo nation. And and so as
soon as he walked out of the council chambers in neighborhood, he just
drove right over to the Hopi tribal council and I told him about what
happened then they hired him. And so since that happened then there was no
I guess other choice, the Navajo people just had to now deal with norman
let's tell and because normally it'll also new sudden about the land
situation too. And so yeah that's how norman little as I understand it
ended up working with the neighborhood nation And normally tell
his office was in Washington right. Even though he was the general counsel
to the Navajo nation, he really did not have an officer in window rock. He
did have
people that he relied on that was working for the tribal government and I
think they were the ones that established the Navajo legal department and
norman the town it was individual that really pushed that. But his main
office was in Washington D. C. Uh, to work with those federal agencies to
work with Congress and to work with the, the federal government and
incoming administrations that were running the federal government. And
that was fairly typical wasn't it? I mean there are a lot of lawyers who
served came out of like that Wilkinson crayon and marker firm and so forth
and so on. Boyd in had the advantage of being relatively close by being in
Salt Lake city. But this pattern of they would just come out occasionally.
But I know like tell argued or suggested that if the, the Navajo tribal
council did not step into certain situations like the, the court system
and a variety of other things, they were going to be in real trouble
because in the spirit of that termination era, they were the states and
the local level, we're probably going to attempt to take charge of things.
So you see how active the council became for better for worse in that
regard. And he certainly from my reading of it at least, he was pretty
powerful figure for a number of years. Eventually, as I remember chairman
knock I, once he was elected and little was well, but he was there for a
long time. Uh, normally the town was there for a long time and he's
probably a typical
general counsel for indian tribe. He was one of these individuals that was
really interested in, in the power
that he would generate for himself on the Navajo who he was the most
powerful person for the, the Navajo nation government. A lot of the things
that he did, he created it with that in mind was how would he, how would
he uh, established certain officers so that it will make his work a lot
easier and thereby became a very powerful individual. And one of the
things that I think that he created as a result of that was this concept
throughout indian country. That when, when people want to go see the
chairman, when the people wanted to see the elected american indian
leadership,
Sometimes people get disappointed because they don't get to see the tribal
chairs, They don't get to see the tribal governors or president, but they
end up having to talk with the, with the general counsel, the lawyer, the
non indian lawyers that represent these tribes and normally tell to me was
one of those individuals that created that kind of atmosphere first for
the Navajo and then eventually you saw the same thing happening with the
other american indian tribes. It was norman little that handled the Navajo
Hopi case against Sean Boynton. Right. So there's a lot of history between
these two powerful, powerful individual. two powerful lawyers that
represented the, an indian tribe here in the southwest, norman little also
came to every Navajo nation council. Yes, provided
and advice to the Navajo nation council. Whatever the subject was, he was
, he was, he was always there to
get an input into the discussion and uh, he did not necessarily represent
Navajo individual. And because there were some Navajo individuals that
wanted his representation, he just simply created the neighborhood legal
department and hire some his own lawyers that he recruited, put him into
that office and they said, you go represent these individuals and they
want to legal advice and you give it to them. He had according to him, he
had to deal with larger issues that involve the whole Navajo nation and
this console. And so there were right, those kinds of activities that he
promoted. Um, um, the neighborhood people, he was very involved, wasn't
there with the early negotiations with peabody or with some of these other
oil or coal companies in terms of what kind of, um, what kind of profit or
what kind of royalty,
you know, would come in. I remember talking with robert young linguist
years ago and he said, you know, when mattel thought he had worked out a
really good deal for the the tribe, he would come down the, I'll in the
chambers, he'll be waving a piece of paper wearing a white suit. He, it
seems as though from my outsider's perspective, he, this was hardly unique
and he was, he really knew how to work that system and he really, It was a
very powerful figure, especially in the 1950s. Yes,
If you, if you pay attention to some of the legal activities with lawyers
related to neighborhood history, norman little is always somewhere and
everything that the tribe did, whether that's leasing mineral
dealing with the coal companies, oil companies dealing with all that,
these kinds of corporations. It was always normal, let's help that they
had a big say. So in what the Navajo nation council did and so he was,
yeah, he was an entity on the neighborhood that had to be dealt with, he
was an institution
and the neighborhood nation and he
had certain things that he wanted to do and to and and he made sure that
those things that he wanted was done by the, by the Navajo government.
Yeah, it was because of that kind of,
I guess the management of the tribal government that really got people
like Raymond Nakai,
the former neighborhood chairman
who really started campaigning among the Navajo code about how powerful
this white lawyer is among the neighborhood people who comes out of
Washington
that and that was kind of like a rallying force for Raymond, our chi to
use to get elected.
So it was something that,
that the Navajo people are back in those days. Older people are very, very
familiar with their work. This one particular lawyer did
On the never one nation and I believe it was at that point. Ted Mitchell
came into the picture because the way the Navajo people saw the situation
was, you know, there was politics going on in the neighborhood. There were
a lot of discussion about what the white lawyer I was doing, how he
represented the neighborhood nation.
He was so powerful. Well comes right at that point came along Ted Mitchell
who was expressing individual rights, representation of individual
neighborhoods
and all that. How he supported civil rights
and promoted
the freedom to do certain things, the freedom to worship, whatever you
want to worship. Ted Mitchell got involved a lot with the native american
church and native american insurance was not popular at the time, norman
little took exception to all. Mhm have been the political figure. Raymond
archive picked that up and also ran with with that because it was through
Raymond knock. It was through norman little's urgent that the Navajo
council passed a resolution
saying that yeah, never hope people should not, should not belong to the
native american church neighborhood. People should not practice the,
the native american religion on the neighborhood. That was something that
came out of other other tribes that came out of somewhere else. And he
says that you have your own religion here on the Navajo.
So that mhm norman little became an advocate against native american
church. Well, ted Mitchell came alone and he said norman battle is wrong,
You have freedom of religion, just like anywhere else in America. Uh
you're free to believe whatever you want to believe in. And so The right
immediately, there was a clash between two lawyers
on the neighborhood nation that develop into a huge controversy on the
Navajo reservation. And so
Raymond are Chi one the election when he first ran. Yeah. And when he Ran
this was in the late 1950s, one of the first things he did was to fire
and get rid of normal hotel.
And I remember there was a huge controversy because my father was a tribal
council, like at the time, and my father took the side of a position that
was being advocated by Raymond archive. He aligned himself with Raymond
archive forces and as a result, they end up getting rid of hotel. I used
to go to those council session and as a young man and I used to just sit
there and just listen to many of the debate and lot of the debate revolved
around civil rights of neighborhood people. Yeah versus the tribal rights
or tribal government rights. And to me, that was so interesting, you've
got to see mrs veronica To change the 4th? Yeah. Another Yeah. To hear all
the debate from both sides that was very, very interested. And anyway, the
neighborhood nation council end up fire normal hotel and that was the
effort of Raymond are kai and his horses in in the console. And it was
something that was quite significant among the Navajo people to see all of
that. And
I believe it was subsequent to all of these events. And DNA came along.
Yeah. Was really advocating for the rights of individuals among the people.
And as a result, you have Navajo bill of rights. When Raymond came in,
one of his biggest accomplishment is to have the Naville council passed a
neighborhood bill of rights, which is almost like you're the bill of
rights that you have in the United States. And that became the, the tribal
and that just was something that Raymond like I wanted to do and have the
tribal government passed that law and informed people about what happen.
He initially was very positive about DNA legal services as I would call
over time. There were some issues that developed became less stuff support
Yeah, I believe that it was right at the beginning of DNA people's legal
services program where Ted Mitchell also became an advocate of
neighborhood water rights because what he saw and what he did was the DNA
did a research,
never hold water rights going back all the way to decision
that was made by the United States Supreme Court and other subsequent
court decisions were the courts indicated that indian tribe has a prior
water rights above everybody else.
And Tate Mitchell was also an advocate of that. And so did the DNA
people's Legal services program. And so it was a very, very interesting
time in the history of the neighborhood people to see all of these forces
from, from all angles. Yeah, people that follow Raymond archive and what
he was advocated, some Navajo tribal official following what norman little
was advocating for and all of these things clash and and because of what
was happening
on the Navajo nation, there were other people that also came to light
one of them is the rise of Peter Mcdonald because to begin with
Raymond knock, I was the one that brought in Peter Mcdonald. Mhm. Back to
the Navajo nation. Peter Macdonald was working for, I believe an aircraft
company as an injury. Thank you sir. Question Yeah, in California. So
there, Yeah, right. Raymond archive needed a lot of help in reorganizing
the tribal government. So he brought in Peter Mcdonald's to help him
reorganize the whole Navajo government because at that time the Navajo
government was getting big people demanded service people, I wanted to
think things. And so the neighborhood council also was frustrated with
much of what was what was going. So Peter Macdonald came in
with urgent of Raymond are key to come and help them And so as a result of
them doing all of that you have a new era in the development of the tribal
government that took place. I believe it was also right at this point
where president john f Kennedy got elected
and then came out with the war on poverty program and then the war on
poverty program develop what they call officer economic opportunity. And
that filtered all the way down to Navajo. Uh huh. The neighborhood wanted
to, yeah A Navajo wanted to have its own
O. E. O. Program
When they did that then there was a question of who should run it. Yeah.
And then Raymond knock I nominated
Peter Mcdonald to be the individual that would be responsible for running
the never office of economic opportunity. Yeah. And so when that happened
many many Navajo people became an employee of the O. N. E. O. Program.
Some of them were very very popular. Like the head start program. It met
jobs for Navajo people.
It was a program that employed
individual that we're otherwise not able to find work on the Navajo and
then they were doing some good things too such as the the
community development program and home improvement program. People's homes
were being renovated and some were building new homes, new houses. Yeah
those became very very popular with with Navajo people because it was for
the first time providing services to the people. People were feeling the
impact of some of those services. And as a result, Peter Macdonald became
very popular.
So from that position he then ran for the tribal chairmanship against his
his old friend Raymond, that guy. And And then I think they ran against
each other about three times during the course of the The next 1216 years
that dominated the political scene. Nation,
you may want it pass on this question but or not answered at any time. But
I was curious about your initial impressions of Macdonald and you with DNA
initially under the umbrella of the O N. E. O, you must have had some
meetings or contacts with him and got a sense too, that is sort of an
initial impression of
I guess the best way to describe that is that
because of the programs that we were responsible for
with my help in the development of DNA people's legal services and with Mr
Mcdonald being the head of O N E O. Yeah,
those jobs, things that two programs were were dumond
force us to work together because
the program demands.
My impression was that he was and able, capable person,
an individual that was
looking out for the interests of the never hold people back then and he
wanted to make sure that
whatever it is that we were doing,
who was in the best interests of our individual clients and he represented
the
the Navajo who nation
has its young and upcoming leader and he was always interested in some of
the things that D. N. A. Was doing in education and economic development
since he was the head of the economic development approach. Mhm. Some of
the legal issues that was change that we were trying to emphasize among
the neighborhood people. So back then
he supported the legal services program.
We needed his support at the time because the Navajo Nation government was
trying to cut us off the island nation. The Navajo tribal council
controlled by Raymond Arc. I was passing resolutions saying things about
the legal services program, what we shouldn't be doing and why we
shouldn't do certain things. Well Mr Mcdonald saw
things a little differently than the way the tribal council of it. So he
came to our defense
to save the program and the project
and that kind of force us to work together as individual representing
those two important entities on the Navajo nation.
You weren't entirely surprised that he decided to run for the chairman's
position. You weren't entirely surprised that he sought the chairmanship.
I wasn't I was not surprised.
Oh
because because when you get into those kinds of position, you know the
natural evolution is to go through that kind of process that will propel
you to write the chairmanship of the neighborhood nation. And so
that was something
I don't know if he did that by design. I wonder what saving he probably
did. Yeah and I was not at all surprised. He became the tribal chair
South the position very aggressively. Yes. Mhm.
Hello
his uh
did I tell you the story about going back to Dartmouth? Talk about sort of
take a break for a second. Um I had been teaching at the University of
Wyoming for a little while and they have, we have an endless summer and
they have an endless winter. And this friend of mine in Dartmouth said,
well it's been almost a native american cities program. And why don't you
come out and talk about the first two terms of Mcdonald's administration?
So because he said, I know you're working on more general Navajo history,
but this is a number of Navajo students at Dartmouth and number of indian
students, they find that's really interesting for you do that. And I said
sure I'll do that. I need to think about it very much. It's good. Mcdonald
is coming also to give the keynote address and he's going to comment on
your talk and You can talk for a half an hour and then he'll talk for 15
minutes. So I have an hour of questions. Well, you know, this is the kind
of situation historians try not to get into, But I went back there and I
gave my talk for 30 minutes and he got up and he said, well he thought the
,
oh the things I had praised shows showed that I was pretty perceptive guy
on some topics, but things I had criticized, he was just glad to be there
to set the record straight and explain how I had not quite understood
these properly. And he talked for instead of 15 minutes. He talked for the
remaining 45 minutes. And so you have any questions at all. But the Navajo
students were just delighted with all this because you know, they were
interested in it. Michael Dorris, the anthropologist and author was chair
of the native american station at that time. And I still see his this big
grin on his face coming after shake my hand after the talk. And and it was
funny because before I went back east of the talk, I started getting phone
calls from people I'd known when I was teaching at the college phone rings
and it's uh, a little blue house, she's working as a secretary. She says,
well, we thought you might, it might be helpful for you to have some of
the more, you know, more information about. Um, Mr Mcdonald's
accomplishments then and a day or two later, I get a call Larry Rousseau.
I said, I heard from a long time. Well, I don't see it as well. He says,
we've looked over the initial version because they wanted to see my talk
beforehand, you know, and I said, I'll give you a rough version. He said,
well, I think you could use a little more information, you know? And so
they were just like the phone kept ringing and talking to these people and
it was,
you know, I can look back on it and sort of smile about it. But at the
time I thought, boy, this is really putting me to the test here in terms
of what I'm going to say. And, you know, when I look back on those first
two terms, especially the first term, you know, I was living On novel at
that time when MacDonald was 1st elected. And in a number of areas, you
know, talking to other people thinking about it. It seemed like he really
was doing some good things. You know, there was was and he was the first
person really to have had a sort of combination of life experiences and
education and so on and so on. So there's really important. But of course
, as time went on then the picture got more complicated for variety of
reasons, then assessing, you know, what was his father, his responsibility
, you know, more difficult, but mhm. It's a, you know, even though Navajo
is much bigger than all the other indian nations, think it's still
operates in many of the same ways, which is to say. Yeah, very strong
feelings about, oh, the chairman's position. Very strong feelings about
though, what's going on at the chapter level. Very strong feelings, what's
going on in, yeah, Window Rock and
very complicated time and
it remains, I think a fascinating time to look back Into the 70s in the
early 80s. Yeah. You know, you you entered the picture and
I think future historians will continue to see those those times. And
you're you're you were chairman and President being really fundamentally
important time soon. I would assume that looking back on it,
he must for the most part feel very good about how you conduct yourself
and how you represented the nomination.
But you know, the
I think a lot of people feel that
whether they supported Macdonald or supported you, that they realize that
you both we're strong individuals who have strong feelings about past,
present future nomination. And
mhm some people have said to me, there has not been anybody who stepped in
with that degree of them power and determination since then. Do you miss
anything
that kind of do I miss being I mean, it's not totally left the scene, but
you're not on the council floor every day. And you miss that kind of
engagement fighting as well. You know, Peter, I I don't really miss all of
that. But I missed the Navajo people. There's a there's a difference
between the two and uh I love my work. I love what I do.
It's just one of those things where I guess each individual has certain
chemistry about them and when you get into something, you know, that's
what you want to do and that's what you enjoy doing, what you love to do
and for me
what I am involved in and what I do now A. S. U. The I am just cut out
a terrific job and
and it agrees with me, I don't feel any pressure from anybody. I'm relaxed
and I really love my family. I enjoy being with my grandchildren.
And it's just uh it's just really good. It's just good for the spirit,
good for
my my own personal emotions and satisfaction.
But being a neighborhood leader, being in that saddle, officially being in
the president or the chairman position. That that was
very stressful every day. Yeah. You never knew what was going to come up
and Mhm I thought about, I thought about you in conjunction with
Washington. Did you see that turquoise Rose? Did you see that? They showed
it last week. But it made me think about the things people no tell me that
they miss you know when they're down here and one of them clearly was the
way in which the family can work together. And I love this older woman who
played the grandmother in this film because you know, you have this
beautiful young woman was out there with him and with her and him, you
know, start raining and she sees this little dog out in the rain, you know
, and goes out and brings it in and five seconds later grandma who brought
that dog in the house, you know, all those things and and it made me
realize, you know, as an outsider but maybe understand again why people
miss, you know, yeah, that country and those people and the way the family
works and all the rest of it. Well
can we look at the dates some more? Yes, we can't. Let me tell you what my
, what my schedule is. Okay. Uh huh. Next week I'm going to be up on the
neighborhood okay all week.
And then the following week on Wednesday
I'll be an au I'll come back on thursday and friday. It will be the
following week to that. I think that's october
let's see.
Yeah,
Let's see. Their fourth is Friday. I think that's right Saturday is five
7th during the week of October seven. You want to have it on Wednesday
again? Let me I'll check my schedule too. But I think that would be fine
and I'm going to be gone as it happens that
some of that time too. So but um So this would be October seven that week
. I will double check and get right back to you. But I think that is good
. I think that would work as well and I know where in the world you get
this. Mhm
bought it somewhere. I wanted to show it to you probably haven't seen a
coffee. I know that I was the executive director if you want to borrow it
and maybe jenny could copy it or something, give it back to me but it's
really interesting to, you know, look it's like this. I picked up, you
know you were talking about the trying to um this is through roemer, but
how they were trying to educate the students about how the law works. So
yeah, I think these kind of documents are really important.
Oh this is great.
I was thinking that was one thing maybe you could, let's have, let me talk
about this. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Yeah you can. Yeah I
think because I think that was important. I mean it obviously was
important. Would I think that'd be good if you could talk to them.
Yeah let me let me maybe and uh this will be our next session. Why not?
Okay, that sounds good.
I'm trying hard not to interrupt you and I hope I'm doing okay with
dan Vicente. He's he's still there.
Good.
Lorraine Bennett says the she is now
uh member of the Supreme Court. Really? Uh
huh. She was just a college student. Yeah,
good. Okay what do we do that? I want to go over and uh uh this morning at
9:30 I have Labriola
they want me to do
like an ad about promoting their center promotion. So I came over at nine
so we did that and now
there people
construction and indian country wants me to do an ad on Katie and okay so
I have to go over to the studio,
thank you so much for the for For the money. You're the first kid arrives
today at two Today at 2:00. He's coming over with his father. We're going
to I'm going to organize the students will. That's great. That's wonderful.
That's wonderful. Good for you. He must have been this guy that's coming.
His name is Jordan's begay. He must have been good boyfriend. Lady who
got killed. Yeah, because he's he says I can't I can't go to school down
there. I can't continue to come down elevator and note that there was her.
Yeah. He said I just want to transfer. So he's the first kid. Yeah.
That's coming today. Okay. Well, I wish you appreciate it. Sure, course.
Yeah. And then the other kids will probably follow. And
I'm going to go down there pick up all that. They're being alone and
because the others don't, they all don't have cars, Transportation
boy.
Yeah. Okay, peter. Okay, thank you.
Just call if you haven't I'm going to keep Wednesday
of that week. I think it's the second week in the second week in october
right. That sounds this thing is still on. Yeah,
sure you turn it off.
Think it's all right. Yeah.
Yeah.
And says stop. Yeah.Mhm