I didn't. Okay. Yeah you're all set to go so you know if you need
anything Karen took to use this one for sure.
Mhm.
Good.
Oh
here are some things we might talk about in connection with the um Opie is
in the native american church. Um If any of those seem worthwhile, how
what I thought would help also would be if if you wouldn't mind sort of
introducing a few of these people in a little more detail, a little more
information or characters of like mr Sidney, just the kind of person he is
and his willingness to meet you part way at least on some of these matters.
Yeah. The struggle to be chairman of the Hopi tribe at any time. It seems
like the government doesn't seem to be very well accepted there by a lot
of people. But anyway I thought we could you might want to speak to some
of these points you already have to some extent but it might just round it
out a little bit and then if we make our way through that and still have a
few more minutes, I've got a couple of other things jotted down also. Okay
okay well let me say this for the recording, this is Peter Iversen
speaking again where the Doctor Peterson's are, this is june of 2010 and
we're going to begin by talking about two major issues during his life and
political career. One of them is the um the relationship between the Hopis
and Navajos of a variety of matters and the other is about the native
american church. A church that was, that originated outside of Navajo
country and Navajo culture but became increasingly incorporated into
Navajo life as time went on.
I thought maybe we could start by talking a little bit about mr Ivan
Sydney and your relationship with Hammond with the Hopi people. I remember
that that was you were quite willing to drive your time honored pickup
truck down to talk with him. And and he was distinctive also in his
willingness to try to find a way to um build better relations and to
understand each side of this long standing disagreement.
I've been sitting here, went to uh, phoenix indian school. Uh, he was in
back of me maybe uh, a couple of years, maybe even three years. And I got
to know him some back then and then subsequent to both of us leaving
phoenix indian school. Our path cross here and there periodically with him
as a police officer and then me working at DNA people's legal services
where, you know, I was contacted by Navajo people who were incarcerated on
some occasion uh, in Hopi courts and by the Hopi uh police. And because of
the work that DNA must do in protecting our clients is uh, uh, rights and
all of that. Uh, we, we were able to kind of uh, maybe uh, see each other
every once in a while and I liked him with dead, uh, his demeanor and his
openness to things, suggestions and and all of that as a result of my uh
being acquainted with him. Then I got to know his family, his wife. It was
one of those individuals that was very cordial, pleasant individual. And
Iran was very dedicated to the Hopi people Hopi culture and she was also
dedicated to the work that Ivan was doing. And so I I got to know them uh
fairly well even prior to the election. And uh and then when I came to A S.
U. Uh their daughter uh went to school here at A. S. U. And was a student
at A S. U. West and I had some conversations with her and on some occasion
counseled with her and she approached me seeking some explanation on
issues and um and maybe even seeking help from the university. And so I
also know his uh boys, the Children that he was very close to and maybe
the Children of his own relatives. And so he was one of those individuals
that was very important in my life. And
when I was uh prepared to run for the neighborhood nation chairman
Back in 1982, he came to my announcement at Low mountain sometimes in
january 1982.
And I remember that day it was it had snowed the night before and we were
kind of concerned about the snow and the mud and all of that. And uh the
cold air coming in from the north, it looked like it was going to bring in
some more snow and we were concerned about the people come into low
mountain and that we may not have that many people come in. But we were
surprised. I was completely taken by over 1,000,000 people showing up at
that open in uh announcement and in the crowd was, I'm in Sydney and some
of the council delegates from the Hopi Nation and they were there to
observe and to get acquainted with people. And they were, because they
were people that came from Plaka and Palanka in Low Mountain is Maybe some
10, 12 miles apart. And, and many of the Hopi people who went to Kings
Canyon, uh, store and trading post and many of them also went to Kings
Canyon boarding school, as did the Navajo. And so they knew each other
from the past, going to school together and meeting each other the trading
post. And so, uh, he knew some Navajo families and the people knew him. So
it was kind of just natural that he came to uh, My announcement back in
1982, I guess some political adverse at political advisors from a distance
away from ah low mountain and in that vicinity. They thought it was all
constructed in such a way that this would happen and it would have a major
political impact because at the time, the Hopi Nation was having a, a
rough time at least getting the attention of the Navajo people. So I guess
generally people thought that it was all orchestrated for political reason
, but what they don't know is that it was just a natural thing for for
that to happen because they were neighbors. And uh and it's one of those
things when you're a friend of someone, you a major event is taking place
in your community, you go visit, greet and you converse with them. And so
that's basically uh what happened in our relationship has been very
cordial right from the beginning. Of course, people know that during my
inauguration, we uh invited him and he was there at the inauguration
ceremony, participating in all of the uh events and ceremonies that took
place. And so that was kind of a relationship that I had with him. My
impression about the Hopi government is that it's struggled some to be
accepted and to be representative of the people. And that that ongoing
difficulty, I think there's a period of some years where it did not meet
at all or very rarely. Um and I wondered about Mr Sidney's efforts being
hindered somewhat by that difficulty.
Well, when I looked at the Hopi situation now, this is uh 28 10. And what
has happened, let's say the last two or three years especially, and it's
one of those situations where I think most of the indian people go is
going through what they're going through, which is that to some degree,
many of the Hopi people still believe in the traditional old ways and they
want to maintain some of those qualities uh that tradition brings on and
that the tradition uh that uh the Hopi people as they know their own
tradition, they still want to continue living that. And then you have on
the other side, you have people who are progressive, maybe some might
label them that way. Uh they're a little more uh modern in in their
outlook outlook on life and maybe uh in a political setting. And so if you
put those two together, the old and the new, the traditional and the new,
you will always have some degree of contention and uh and there will be
some spirited discussion that takes place between the two parties. And so
that's no different anywhere else. Uh even in the United States, we're
experiencing that right now. Uh people, uh some, some groups of people
believe in certain uh political persuasions or situation and others may
may disagree and democracy in in our country promotes that and it just so
happened that among the indian people in indian country, you have the, you
know, the modern uh concept that sets in because of the school in that the
indian people go to and uh and then you have the traditionalist continuing
to live in a traditional way. Uh neither is is bad. Uh I think people just
need to understand it and the Hopi people are having that uh discussion
right now. Um um among the community members, the villages and they have
their their own uh government at the local village level. Uh and then they
also have a centralized government and they are trying to make things work
uh so that the, the government is responsive to the wishes of perhaps
maybe the villages and some of the local people and that's going to take
time uh to understand clearly what that all means to the future of the
Hopi nation personally. I just wish them well and and uh and then hope for
the best because uh they were just like any american indian tribes, small
groups, small government and they are going through those uh trying times
right now. And uh the Navajo, on the other hand, is also going through the
same process. There's a lot of questions about the way the Navajo
government is set up. There's a lot of questions about the illegal
activities of tribal government officials and you know, how their
constituents are not a
green with perhaps some of the demands that they put on there. Tribal
council delegate. And so that kind of a discussion is taking place is
really about accountability, where they like to see the council delegates
being accountable for anything that they do and everything that they do.
And so it we're having the same kind of a problem then, if you look at in
the state of Arizona here in the southwest, you have the patches that are
going through the same uh, process. And uh, and, and uh, basically that
almost the same issue and uh, the economic hard times right now in the
year two, Uh,
2010 isn't helpful. It just puts a lot of stress on the tribal government.
And I think a lot of the indian people are, are feeling that and uh, it
certainly has filtered down to Hopi Navajo apaches and other tribes here
in State of Arizona was thinking about that getting ready for our visit.
And I think one of the things as an outsider that occurs to me and occurs
to some others is that the declining proficiency in the Navajo language
sometimes or the Hopi language on the part of some of the younger people
has made it these discussions, which were already difficult, even if
everybody does speak the same language even more complicated perhaps in
that regard. But I wondered if you could sort of sort of step aside here
use that segue. And you could tell us a little about the changes in Navajo
political, the council structure and chapter relationships that have
occurred really quite recently and our ongoing issues for the Navajo
people today, wasn't there a a vote on
revising how the council delegates were put together, We're going to
reduce the number of council delegates well with the neighborhood
situation. Uh, it's an issue between the office of the president and the
council And we have 88 member council elected by the local people within
those precincts throughout the Navajo nation. And uh they have certain
powers responsibilities
uh as a council delegate and they're fully exercising those uh Powers that
have been given to them by the title, two amendments. And on the other
hand, the office of the President is questioning some of those uh powers
and perhaps even the exercise, you know, of those powers and the
responsibilities. And that's the uh discussion between the two entities.
Uh that led to this whole idea of trying to reduce the Neighborhood Nation
Council from 88 - 24. And as I understand it back several years, uh
several years ago, uh huh. The neighborhood nation had voted on tribal
government reform to reduce the 88 All the way down to 24 in that voting.
The Navajo people were given certain numbers uh when was 88 and I think
the other one was 48 or 44 or something like that. And then 24 And the
Navajo through referendum vote, chose the 24. But then the council came
back because they had the power to uh to discuss those kinds of situations
in their own council meeting. They came back and they said that they had
to have a supermajority which meant that each at each of the chapter
houses, There has to be majority that went for the 24. And and they
therefore discarded the the simple majority. and although the 24 Council
delegate uh membership had one during that year, the Naval Council still
did not accept that. And because they their their lawyer advised them that
there had to be a super majority. And so uh this time around In the year
2010, the president essentially did the same thing and it was a replay of
what happened back back then. And yes, and it was just a simple replay.
But to have the rules also be decided first and which was that there would
be a simple majority, would would have precedence over anything else. And
so uh that that's what happened and as a result, Majority of the
neighbourhood people voted for the 24. And uh and that raised a lot a lot
of question. It was uh and i opener for political observers away from the
neighborhood and and even on on the neighborhood nation. And that the 24
uh council, that we get a suggestion of having 24 council delegate one
over Uh the the 88. The council fought very hard to maintain the 88 and
but the local people disagree now, subsequent to all of that. Uh then came
uh Uh this whole idea about how do you how do you then reapportion those
24 seats. And so that was left out in the open, clearly the council's
responsibility was to uh overlooked at And and then maybe come out with
some kind of a real portion through the local election office, election
administration. And but the president kind of beat them to the punch
because he was already working on some reapportionment plan, several
reapportionment plan. And he took those reapportionment plan throughout
the main chapters, agency governments on the neighborhood nation and have
people look at it and discuss the reapportionment plan. And there was one
of one or two or even three that they liked from the local area. And so
what he did is that he just took those two or 3 that people like and then
uh came back together with his administration and they Presented one plan
to the election office and then the election officer uh agreed with the
plan and they approved the plan in terms of how the reapportionment
throughout the neighborhood notion was to be uh drawing those uh lines.
And so it it was something that, you know, very controversial and
the President couldn't couldn't do that alone uh and he had to go to court
and uh and challenged some of the position that was uh taken by the
council. And then the council did the same thing. They didn't fully agree
with what the President was doing. And so the courts had to Again bailout
the Navajo government as they did in 1989. And when the chairman at that
time was put on administrative leave And in this situation, the year 2010
, the same thing happened, it was a tribal court, it was never the
nation's Supreme Court that that came out and basically saved the never
who government from a complete chaos. And when we were put in the
neighborhood Supreme Court together Way back in 1984,
beginning 1983 and 84, uh we we thought about that, we discussed all that
, those kinds of situations and that we didn't want to see it again when
you have people that are club and one another and they're hurting each
other, you don't want to ever see and revisit those kinds of scenes. And
so because of that, it was important that we created a uh neighborhood
nations Supreme Court where they would take on some of those issues. And
so I was I was very proud uh the day that now the Nation's Supreme Court
made those those rulings because it they set the record straight, they
look at it the in a legal way, in a very uh independent
uh review what was happening. And so we are now at a point where people
are preparing uh and in some cases running for those 24 seats uh that was
announced last week. And so that's where the Navajo nation is right now,
there will be a uh Primary election as I understand it on 24 August this
year. And then uh general election will be on November 2nd And then we'll
have a new 24 uh council delegates ready to be seated and taking oath of
august at the inauguration in the middle of january uh 2011. And so that
was never hold people coming together putting pressure on the government
because never what people were just tired of all of the publicity
surrounding individual council delegates and how they were misleading the
people, how they were really uh
operating without any kind of uh strict accountability to the Navajo
people. There were a lot of uh controversy over the manner in which they
use uh Neverhood people's money in many cases to take care of their own
personal things. And uh and so they didn't like, they didn't like that,
they got tired of, of all of that. And uh and because of that, I think
they did what they did, which was 88 is just too many. And uh and there's
no magic thing to the number 88. And it was just through all these years,
It got to that number, but there's nothing magic about 88. There's also
nothing really magic about the 20 for either. And what the novel people
really uh in essence thought was maybe if there's less of them, uh there
wouldn't be all this uh uh you know, uh activities uh
taking place within the neighborhood council. So I think that was that was
the overriding factor that caused them to vote like the way they didn't
come in To reduce the council to 24. There's been some expression of
concern on the part of some Navajo people that, that with the reduction in
in numbers, maybe some of the more rural areas which are struggling in
regard to their own well being with a decline of the livestock industry
and other matters and whether the new form will give greater voice, two
urban people and urban concerns in Shiprock and Chinle and so forth, and
maybe not so much attention to what's going on in chilled tomato or other
more rural environments. Well, I think in the, in the reapportionment plan
that I have seen thus far, they took an extra uh, careful review of that
issue And I think that's why they have like before, when there was 88
council, uh, areas like Shiprock and Tuba City and fort defiance would
have anywhere from 23 or even four council delegate from, from one
community. And
now that didn't really work out to the advantage of the local community.
Uh, in fact, many of them were just in each other's way and uh, and they
never were able to really get a lot done. So this time, uh, when the
council was reduced to 24, those areas only got one and so that they
couldn't dominate the small local chapters and they made it so that there
was a balance between small chapters versus the big chapters and uh, and
that's some of the features of the new reapportionment plan that never,
who will be using for Voting in November 2010, do you think one final
question in this matter, do you think it will make any difference in
regard to the number of women who are possibly elected to the council?
Will they be primarily hindered or helped by a different kind of uh number
? You know, I haven't, I haven't really looked at the uh, carefully The
number of uh women versus the men that are, that are running for those 24
seats, but I think just by glancing over the, the women folks will have
their share. And uh, and I think in almost uh, almost every precinct you
have a woman candidate, with the exception of a maybe uh, 23 or four
precincts where there were men, all men and uh, but you have some uh,
young ladies that has aspirations to become uh, local leaders uh, that,
that are throwing their hat in the ring for election november.
one of the things that you, and I didn't quite get to because of the
timing of things, was the overall assessment in regard to the um, the role
of casino gaming in the Navajo economy. Um, until fairly recently, there
was, there weren't casinos and now they're are several and ongoing
discussions about several more. My understanding is that your position on
the institution of these casinos is primarily been favorable if, if it's
done in the right kind of way, I wonder if you could just come in a little
bit on where things are in that regard. And what are some of the
achievements are, you know, sort of issues that are with us right now?
Well, initially, initially way back and something like uh,
in the mid 19 eighties when
ending people, tribal groups, tribes and groups elsewhere had their uh,
casinos.
Navajo is kind of lag behind Uh, mainly because of two or 3 issues. one of
them was, uh, the stance between the state's having, uh, the authority to
convene a uh, compact and uh,
procedures between the States and the indian track and the Navajo being
the largest, uh, an indian nation in the United States with a significant
land base and numbers of people living on reservation. And then also many
of them being a tradition continued to be a traditional person where they
had, uh, some had limited education and you just have to look at the
composition of the Navajo. And the prevailing attitude was that we are not
so sure if we want to go into indian gaming because
number one, if we go to the state of Arizona and ask them for a compact to
do gaming on the Navajo, then we're given the state an inch Uh, to open
the door. And how do we know that they're not going to completely come in
open the door fully so that they would begin having jurisdiction. So there
was that fear that once you submit yourself, uh, two a green with what the
state is doing uh, for you, uh, maybe even with you on the Navajo
reservation among the Navajo people, then we're given in to some degree on
our sovereignty. And so they looked at the issue the issue that way. And
then the second one was the level nation is blessed with so much natural
resources. We have the coal, we have, we have the, uh,
the uh, the land base. We have all of these natural resources on the
Navajo nation, the timbers and,
and we have those and that the Navajo people ought to develop that to gain
more revenue stream to the neighborhood nation government. In other words
, those natural resources are there to be developed. And if we get away
from that and then go into gaming, gaming is easy money. It's a no brainer.
And all you have to do is that you construct a building and you bring in
your slot machine put people to work and it will succeed. And uh, and so
it was that kind of economic development versus developing your own
natural resources where you have to use a lot of common sense. A lot of uh
, labor, a lot of people skilled in uh, business management and all of
that in order for one to make money that those were more challenging than
just simply have any game. And so I've heard a lot of that kind of a
discussion among among the neighborhood people. Yeah. And I guess the
third issue that to the Navajo people also was important and which was the
social effect that it will have on the traditional neighborhood life and
that we're gonna have a lot of our people that may want to spend their
spare time at the casino rather than, let's say working their land,
planting their, their corn, planting their food, tend in business, who
their, their cattle and all that, the work that needs to be done. So, uh,
they wanted a balance and uh, and they thought that uh, gaming might cause
a lot of the social, uh, ills. And that was also, you know, one of the
factors uh, in them, uh, deciding all of that. And the other thing was
also important when the tribal council passed a resolution, I believe back
in, oh, maybe
19 nineties or early 19 nineties, uh, to have gaming. The council made it
in such a way that they had already named uh, communities which community
was going to get casinos, uh, chin lee neighborhood new Mexico uh, dhe uh
, in page Arizona Cameron Arizona. And they were naming in the, in the
legislation itself, uh, that they were a proven it already name all those
sites. And well, that really brought in a lot of fears, especially among
the traditional people. And they were saying that, hey, it's going to be
in our community. And I don't know, I don't know, I like that. And it was
not set strategically like the way it's being planned right now. So the
biggest difference between that Mid 1980 resolution to the resolution that
was passed, who was, You know, in in 209 or 208 was that uh, the building
of the casino are going to be strategically set alone I-40 uh between
gallup new Mexico and Flagstaff. And if you do those right then you're the
people that would patronize the place would be tourists, people drive on
the I 40 and that they would be strategically set. And I believe there's
one or two being planned around far mention uh, highly populated area. And
uh, so uh, they're doing a better job of strategically naming those places
where it would make money While before the resolution that was passed in
the mid 1990s was just saturating the place with uh, with casinos. And I
didn't think that it was gonna work. And that there was going to be
unworkable plus to put up a casino costs a lot of money. Lots and lots of
money is a very expensive proposition.
And at that time we didn't have the money, we didn't have the money. And
uh, and so I uh vetoed the resolution because there wasn't enough thoughts
, There wasn't enough planning, there wasn't enough strategic plan and
discussion among the Navajo people too to do that. And I I vetoed it. I
said we should put this before the public and let the people decide what
we should do and that there should be more strategic planning involved in
this whole thing. And so they subsequent to that Resolution that was
passed in the mid 1990s, the Navajo people voted on it and they rejected
it. Uh And uh and so that was essentially what happened now. Did they vote
another time? Well, I think they voted on that three times, three times,
fairly close. Yeah, they voted on three times and then the last time it
passed and it passed because they took care of some of those concerns that
I had, which was a better plan, it should be, should be put in place. And
probably they saw that we were beginning to have uh some extra revenues
that were coming in. Now, the reason why I like what I see now Is that in
the year 2010
the Navajo gaming enterprise, which is an enterprise of the Navajo
government. Yeah, they went to the Investment Committee and the Budget and
Finance Committee and they've asked
those two committees to approve a plan where they would use some of the
monies that have been invested and has earned uh some significant amount
of interest money. one of them was what they call
uh huh the permament the trust fund, right, Parliament trust fund. We
started that during my administration. And we we started that with A
deposit of $26 million 25
27 year period. It earned all the way and it blossom and grew into Over a
billion dollars. I think it was 1.3 billion. And so what the game an
enterprise did is they asked the two committees the budget and the
investment committees to borrow that to do their gaming. And uh and they
would pay back into the fund almost at the same rate as that the going
rate. I mean that uh what was considered adequate and uh and I don't
remember what those numbers were but uh still the uh program it uh trust
fund would make money because
if you leave the Parliament trust fund sitting there in this present form
at a billion dollar. It earns uh certain amount of interests the money,
additional money that it generates each year. If you weigh that amount
versus the money being used to build a casino. I think what they did is
they went one or 2% above that so that the Parliament fund would still
grow, it would bring in more money from, from gaming. And the beauty of
all of that is they didn't have to go to the outside bank and they don't
have to go to the outside bank and bring in let's say uh Wells Fargo and
Wells Fargo would end up making lots of money because their financing the
gaming development on the Navajo. Uh so the gaming enterprise in the
neighborhood nation was very smart in in saving that money, putting money
into a trust and all the revenues generated then there. So they really
just simply borrow money from itself to do development. That's the beauty
of it. And the guy who is the gaming director bob winter was coded in the
neighborhood time saying that he knows of no other tribe that was in a
position to do that. All of the other indian gaming facilities were built
using outside banks. And then the tribes indebted themselves to those
banks and uh and some of them are being called because the casinos are
doing very well, but they still have all this uh uh uh money indebted to
the bank that they have to pay and with an abomination, they just borrowed
from one pocket uh and then maybe from several pockets to do what they
want to do with the idea that it's going to generate more revenues and
those monies will be put back uh and given back to the neighborhood nation.
That's the beauty of it. And that's what you called self sufficiency when
we were put in the parliament trust funds together way back 27 years ago,
that was the goal. That's why we did what we did uh that we wanted to have
never the nation become using that money self sufficient someday in the
future and never down on me that it would Come in the year 2010.
It's really one of the major achievements of your time in Navajo political
life. It seems to me, um, Just one or 2 other side questions when we
talked last time about DNA legal services and we talked about Ted Mitchell
and we talked about other people were involved. And one thing we didn't
talk directly about and I don't know if you want to or not, but is there
that important confrontation that took place Between mrs one IQ and Mr
Mitchell that ended up having Mr Mitchell having to move his office. As I
recall the gallup. It was one of the factors in changing the ongoing
leadership of DNA. There's a lot of sort of mythology at this point and
sort of guesses and suppositions, but not necessarily accurate. You know,
accounts on sort of what happened that day or why it mattered. I just
wondered if you wanted to speak to that at all or not.
Well, I don't, I don't really uh, completely remember that day because I
was doing something else. Uh, I was not at the office, I may have been
at another agency office like Chin lee or ship Prague or doing something
away from Window Rock, when all that that happened. But as I talk to
people who were there that day. Uh, there was a lot of discussion
by the Navajo Council,
uh, on this, uh, indian civil rights act that was passed, I believe that
was in 1964 or something like that, when the when the Indian Civil Rights
Act, who was attached to a major congressional bill. And uh, There was one
section about providing due process
uh, to any person.
And the Navajo council was concerned with that section. And
that does providing due process within the neighborhood nation context.
Does it mean that any person besides Navajo or any person from the Navajo
nation,
what what does it really, really mean? We have to provide due process to
any person. What about tourists? What about all these other people? And if
we do incarcerate or arrest somebody, how much do process do the should be
given to those individuals.
And that kind of a discussion generated a lot of uh, talks among the
lawyers and because naturally they they were defending the civil rights
and the rights of neighborhood nationhood being the patches and what that
all meant within the context of tribal governments. And so uh ted Mitchell
, the director of DNA people's legal services was naturally interested
because there was a lot of discussion about his activities on the
neighborhood nation. Getting involved in a lot of issues that was that the
naval nation was confronting and there were water rights issue, There were
land issues, There were issues with the tribal general counsel, the
lawyers that the, that represented the whole Navajo nation and their
activities. There were a lot of questions about schools out in the
communities and, and some of that
events and activities that those schools were, uh, I guess, uh, involved
in relative to students not giving them due process and violating their
rights, I think right at that point, there was a lot of discussion about
long hair, long hair issue where if a Navajo who youngster wants to
participate in the football football coaches were causing them to have
their haircuts first before they joined the football team, it didn't
matter whether the person had skills or not, was being athletic or not.
And so that all involved the civil rights matters of that individual. And
so naturally there lawyers were very, very much interested. And so as I
understand it that day, uh, chad Mitchell went over to the Navajo council
alone with two or 3 other lawyers. And, uh, and so they were sitting there
in the Navajo council when an individual from the Department of Interior,
from the solicitor's office came out to explain the new law and when they
came to that section on providing due process, uh, to anyone to non
indians, there was a lot of contention, lot of emotions that were involved.
And I guess the council try not to name anybody by ted Mitchell knew that
that, uh, he was the center of that discussion. And uh, and I guess he
thought it was funny why they wouldn't they wouldn't uh name him. But he
knew clearly that that uh whatever was said was that was him and he
thought that was funny. And so he ended up uh uh laughing about the matter
and I guess at one point another question was asked and that made him
laugh really hard and everybody heard it in the council. And so Annie
Monica was one of those individual council delegate that set in the very
very back row because the council seats were a sign in the alphabetical
order. So her last name was veronica. So she was the last one sitting with
the Yazidis and the yellow hairs. And uh so I guess she just got out of
her chair from that last row because Ted Mitchell was right in the back of
her and uh and maybe chad Mitchell thought that she was going to leave and
she was ready to leave or something like that. And uh didn't pay much
attention how angry she was. And when Ted was according to him, when he
was looking away, I didn't see this punch coming from anywhere. Nika and
Anna when I punched him in the in the mosque. And so that caused a lot of
uh controversy throughout the reservation. And uh d n. A. People's legal
service end up suing uh the tribal government because what happened that
they was the chairman of the never tried Raymond knock I sent a police
over to ah D. N. A. And uh and that police then escorted ted Mitchell off
the reservation towards gallop and uh left him at the reservation line.
And he had to walk some distances and maybe hitchhike into into gallup but
he was given instruction not to set foot back on the uh Navajo nation. And
as I understand it, what the tribe uses that in the treaty of 18 68
between the Navajo nation government and the United States government.
There's also a section dealing with uh bad man among the indians or
something like that. Bad man among the indians. And it states that if
there is that individual then
United States and the tribal government can escort expel that individual
from indian land and uh and dry them off the reservation. So they use that
section of the treaty to get ted Mitchell of the reservation. Well what
happened the controversy was, you have the treaty that was supporting the
tribe. You have a new law called indian Civil rights Act that says that
you had to give due process to anyone, any person. And the
legal issue for the judge and the court to decide was uh the difference
between those two and ted Mitchell eventually won uh in stating that his
civil rights was violated. And uh and so he was restored back to to the
neighborhood nation several weeks or even months later uh to resume his
duty as executive director of DNA people's legal service. But he really
couldn't in some ways. Goody. I mean it was really sort of a marked man
man to some extent. He already was, but made it harder for him to carry on
as he carried on before maybe. Yeah, he, you know, he at that point at
that point
he thought that he was a distraction. Um, um, a lot of his employees and
what DNA was all about. And so uh, he just elected to go seek another
legal aid uh program job somewhere else. And so he went to Hawaii and then
over to Micronesia where he was, where he became director. Yeah, he was
there for a long time. Yeah. Okay. Um, I think we've touched most of the
bases that I wanted to touch. Is there anything you wanted to add on any
of these points? You could take the papers with you if there's something
that, you know, you want to add on the future? All certainly when we have
the sort of full initial draft finished, which I hope to have before too
long then, well, you can take another look at it. And we've been in Karen
, it's been incorporating and I've been incorporating, you know, most of
your comments at least in corrections and changes as we've gone along. So
we're, we're getting there good
and I hope you feel like I don't think I need to add any, any other thing.
Okay. I can't think of anything that comes from, I just sort of type this
up um, this morning, but I think, I think we've touched a number of things.
I really appreciate your speaking to these in a timely way. So
thank you. I'm sorry to have taken up some of your day in this way, but I
think it's with a casino gaming as a, for example, I think it's really
important to have your perspective on that and to see how it evolved. That
will add a lot to the,
you know, related discussions. Good. Good.
Okay. Well I'll be in touch, I talked with the u of a press people and
they say all sounds good, but get the material in as soon as we can. So
I'll let you, no, and you know, we have this next stage order. And will
you have, will uh annabelle or somebody else be in your office this summer
? Annabelle and Annabelle will be there. Uh, so we can get in touch with
you one another if we have to, I think sometimes in july she'll be off for
sure. Yeah, two or three days. That's that's about it. Otherwise she'll be
, she'll be there. Yeah, judging from your calendar, it sounds like you're
gonna be in and out. So and I will be to to some extent. So, but I think I
think we have a very good chance of getting this done sooner rather than
later and yeah, I'm really excited about it. I think it's turned out very
well. Okay, my friend. Yeah. Let me head back over there is about 2.30.
Yeah, it's for both of us is time to move on to some other things, but I'm
glad we could cover the ground we covered today. Did you hit that button?
Yeah. Uh, this one.