So we are now recording and that's the stop button, put this on, you can
put it on so you can hear yourself and you're good to go. Okay, thank you
very much. Thank you.
Testing 1 2 3.
Testing testing, Testing 1 2 3. Uh today is September the 18th, 207
and today's session with Peter Iversen, I will be talking about D. N. A.
People's Legal Services. Uh, the legal services program, I was born in
1967 on the Navajo Nation. And it was really a program that came as a
result of President johnson's war on poverty program. At the federal level
, the Congress established an Office Call Office of Economic Opportunity.
And under that there were various programs such as the Head Start Program
, Home improvement Program, Community Development Education program and
things like that that would benefit the poor people in this country. And
one of the components that Office of Economic Opportunity was a program
called Legal services for the poor. And the Navajo nation took advantage
of uh that program by applying through the Office of Navajo Economic
Opportunity program. Sometimes around 1966,
the neighborhood nation government established its own officer, never Who
Economic opportunity. And that agency then applied for fundings that are
made available through the Federal Office of Economic opportunity program
in Washington, D. C. And one of the components that was very controversial
from the beginning was uh the Legal services program because legal
services program was designed to help individuals who cannot afford the
services of an attorney where people that are a low income level families
and individual can seek the advice of an attorney that's employed by never
who legal services project. And that was something that the neighborhood
community and the local people really wanted to have was an independent
program where the tribal government will not interfere with whatever those
lawyers are doing in pursuing,
in providing justice to many of the cases that were brought before the
local people. And it was very interesting just to uh see the beginning of
that program because of the need to have an independent legal services. Uh
, the neighborhood nation had to be very, very careful in terms of how
they place uh this program in the hands of the local folks. So uh some
sometimes in early 1967,
we organize a community support uh program for the legal services. We went
to the local chapters, we went to the five Never Who Agency. We explained
the legal services program to them. Then each chapter selected what they
call D. N. A. Representative and they were the people who represented The
110 chapters throughout the neighbourhood Nation. And then those
representatives then became part of the agency counsel. And so there were
five agency council. There were 110 chapter representative throughout the
Navajo nation. And it was that group that then form the Border Directors
for the legal services program. And so it became a very, very strong group
because it was deeply rooted into neighborhood communities and right from
the onset of the program. Right from the beginning, many of these
individual neighborhood started going to legal services attorneys for
advice and for representation. And they immediately start clashing with
the powers that be on the neighborhood. For example, the local schools,
the public schools, the B. I. A. Local agencies and even with the agency
of the tribal government. And we even had a dispute with the tribal court
and the way the courts were set up and the manner in which the way the
tribal judges made their decision. So basically that's that's what
happened with the organization of the uh DNA people's Legal services
program. And uh the Navajo people really took pride uh in working with the
legal services program because for the first time in their lives, uh they
could seek the advice of lawyers on their particular situation. There were
many, many Navajo people who buy cars vehicles after reservation. They
enter into lot of questionable uh dealings with some of the car dealers.
They
were individuals sometimes that did not speak english very well and they
had to sign a contract with the car dealers and they really didn't
understand what the Mhm defined lines indicated in those contracts. And so
as a result, the car dealers in many cases took advantage of the non
english speaking neighborhood people because many of these neighborhood
people were working for, for example, the coal companies and uh the huge
companies that were operating employing Neverhood on the reservation. And
so it was those individuals that organized themselves into groups that
really called for uh the establishment of a legal services program for the
Navajo. Uh huh personally,
in 19 66 I was working for
Arizona State University as an instructor for another O. E. O. Program
called Vista Volunteers. Vista Volunteers was a domestic Peace Corps
program. Prior to the establishment the visa program In 1966, under the
leadership of john f Kennedy. Uh, he established a Peace Corps program and
that was very successful. People got really excited about what Peace Corps
was all about about and then how they were able to go to these different
countries throughout the world and help some of the unfortunate people to
deal with their economic affairs to deal with uh their their problems uh,
in those countries. So it became a very visible program. It did a lot in
terms of our relationship with those other countries because we were sent
in uh people to help the poor folks. And uh and that caught the eyes of
many of the young aspired individuals here too, To volunteer themselves to
take two or 3 years out of their life and uh and devote some of those time
to happen the poor throughout the world. And so uh the Visa program was
just a domestic program at the Peace Corps and MR program where assigned
in Volunteers throughout the United States and the indian tribes we're a
good candidate for much of what MR had to offer. And so I became the
instructor here at Arizona State University to train with the Volunteers
that volunteered their services for Uh 2-4 years out of their life A. S. U.
As a university approach. Oh eo in Washington and they got the funding to
do this. Of course ASU was also an institution that trained the Peace
Corps Volunteers. And so that's how I got myself involved. I was doing
very very well prior to that as a construction estimator for the
neighborhood nation. And I was happy with building a lot of the facilities
and buildings that we now have on the reservation it was a chance where I
could work with my hands and a lot of men hours, labor man hours that went
into what I was doing. But one day I was recruited by a couple of the
people that I admire very much. And one of them was the late dr bob
russell and another individual name malin parker. They both indicated that
they would like for me to come to a shoe and help them train MR Volunteers.
And so I did that for a couple of years maybe. And then I went back to
the Navajo nation in the early 1967 because one day I was teaching uh in a
classroom here at a. S. U. Teaching the vista volunteers and I saw this
one person walking back and forth in the hallway. And that when the door
came people came the students came. And when the door opened, that guy,
God didn't look familiar. And I knew that he was not from the southwest oh
from Arizona because he was wearing a real loud next high and he had a
nice suit And he was just a young man, maybe 28, 30 years old. And uh and
when I was finished with my class, this person came into my class and he
started talking with me, he introduced himself as Theodore r Mitchell and
he says that I am a recent graduate of Harvard Law school, I actually went
to school here at phoenix union in phoenix Arizona and I did my, I got my
law degree from Harvard University just about eight months ago and I am
the new director of Legal services program that they want me to establish.
And he says that I am here to talk to you to see if I can convince you to
come back to the Navajo. And uh I told him I was happy at a S. U. I was
living here. I I was buying the house and happy with my family. So he just
said well if you are to come with me here is some of the things that we
want to do. So we just had that conversation in the classroom and then he
says, I'll come back some other time because I've got a lot of business to
do here in phoenix. And so the next time, Maybe three weeks or a month
later he came back and he says that, have you made up your mind, have you
thought about what I told you? And so are? Uh Mr Mitchell was very, very
aggressive and so then I started thinking about what he was telling me and
he said, I really, really need help, I really need help in the area of
working with the Navajo people. Since you have the ability to talk Navajo
and you also have the ability to speak very well english. And you had the
experience in both the neighborhood culture, neighborhood society,
neighborhood communities. And then he also had the experience of living
here in phoenix and where you know, the non end is very well, I just, I
really, really need that kind of a person to help me start this project.
And at that time the legal services program did not have a name. So as we
organized throughout the Navajo reservation, uh working with the local
people who were selected uh and elected by the local people to serve under
legal services board and representative, we started working in, in
formalizing a formal organization
and And work with the local bar association from the three states. Mhm
mainly Utah Arizona and New Mexico. Each of these states had what they
call a bar association. The
lawyers belong to those bar, local bar association, county bars and state
bars. And they had representative on D. N. A. Uh people's legal services
board and of course the legal services program became that later on. And
so from those state bar association and then from the local agency council
and chapters, we form a board And I remember one of the first meeting that
we had, we needed interpreters because many of the Navajo people who got
on the Legal services board did not know how to speak english. And one
particular person that was of interest to me was an elderly person. I
believe he was about 80 years old at the time a person by the name of john
Rockbridge and john Rockbridge came from black Mesa area on the
neighborhood nation. And john was one of these individuals was a tribal
judge way back and 30s and the 40s
and he was very wise individual and he became a board member. He didn't
speak english and so he needed interpreter. And so the the program
director Tate Mitchell always wanted me to put a microphone on his head on
his ears and I was his interpreter interpreting to john what the
procedures of the meeting and the subject of naming the legal services
program was the first on the agenda and how it should be organized and the
by laws had to be adopted by the, at the board and then formalizing the
board. So those basic basic things had to be done. And the subject of
naming the legal services program. I thought it was going to be just a
simple, Maybe five minute discussion. But I was wrong. The naming of the
program took about 2-3 hours a long debate on naming. And finally, john
ross ulbrich rose at the board meeting. He says, I would like to speak to
the issue. And uh, and he explained very, very eloquently what went in his
mind as a discussion took place. And as he listened to the, to the debate
and he says, I want to make a motion in naming this legal services board
and I want to call it then
I and everybody kind of laugh and they said that Mr Lazar, you have to now
interpret all of that into english english meaning what did Mr roberts say
? And so what it really meant was uh, then is the people between is
culture. No Hill is the revitalization. And so what john had in mind was
that why don't we call this program the Navajo people's program and the
cultural revitalization. That's what we're trying to do. And then all that
concept is lawyers, Bella vita means it's lawyers. And so that's the way
that john explained it. And so we named the program then that no hell no,
did I. And so john, his motion carried and that's how uh the program got
its name. It was through an old experience wise individuals who had a lot
of experience and working with the courts and judging cases that came
before him. And I always admired john roberts well what he did. And then I
got to know john very well because he was involved in many of the cases
that we, that we handle. He appeared in federal courts with us. I was
always his interpreter. And while I was doing all of that, I learned a
tremendous amount of Navajo values Navajo culture, neighborhood language,
the behavioral pattern of the elderly people
and even learning how to speak to people and uh, the protocol that people
have to go through. And so not only was I being helpful to join by
interpreting for him, but I learned so much from that individual because
he was always in high demand to come to federal court for example, and
many of these cases. Uh, and he had a good sense of humor at the same time
and shine and lived to be Over 90 years old until we lost him sometimes in
the late 19 seventies. And so he was one of the, in my, in my own mind and
outstanding a spokesman for the Navajo people. He always,
I had some wise things to say. He didn't say much throughout the day, but
when he decides to open his mouth and talk will tell young people you
better listen because he doesn't always talk all the time. But when he
does there are some good thing is that I think that comes out of that
individual. And so basically that's how the program was was named. We were
getting something like maybe at the beginning uh, Almost $3 million
dollars a year. And that enables us to hire about 30 lawyers. Yeah, About
30 tribal court advocates. The advocates were lay advocates who practiced
law in the neighborhood nation courts and then we had all the other
support staff. Uh huh. The thing that was also intriguing to me was uh,
when I asked the program director ted Mitchell, I says ted we have this
money from office of economic opportunity, but nowhere in there does it
say that we should use these monies for the building of the officers. We
don't have any office space. Uh where are we going to get office facility
? We've got to have an office in all the five agencies throughout the
neighborhood nation. And uh ted just kind of listened, I smile a little
and he says mr Lazar, that's why I hired you, you, you figured that out
how we can get these facilities and he says, if you can't find him create
them, you build the office because you're a carpenter. And he says, I
remember looking at your resume, you're a journeyman carpenter. So you
should just help me build those offices. So the next thing I did was that
I went to the never who force products industry, which was a tribal
program and they were the people who, who had the sawmill established in
neighborhood New Mexico and they were cutting trees and hauling in logs
and they were producing lumber. And so I went to them and I had some
Boards two x 4s to buy two x 6 that those kinds of materials that we need
to build officers. They, it was donated by the Navajo Forest products
industry board and then we bought some of that using the legal services.
So we built a five officers throughout the Navajo nation And we put all
that, the 30 lawyers into those officers to begin working with people. And
right when the beginning, many, many neighborhood people came to those
offices and I could remember when we opened those offices after building
them, opening those office. We have, we would have a grand opening the
next day, the reception room was just full clientele people ready to see
lawyers see tribal court advocates. And it was something that was really
also amazing to me how the program was really, really mhm needed. It only
brought up this concept that the Navajo people were looking for uh the
advice and the work of lawyers. And so that was the beginning of the DNA
people's legal services program. Many, many of the 30 non Indian lawyers
that we had in the program really did not have all that much experience.
And uh and I think we hired two or three experienced lawyers at the
phoenix and farming town in Albuquerque. And their job was just to work
with an inexperienced uh lawyers that came out of the law school in being
lawyers. And so that's how the program was built as far as the work of the
legal services attorney.
And then one of the other things that, that I hated within that program
and one of my responsibility was to recruit lawyers. And so every year I
used to pack up my luggage and my toothbrush and all of that. And I took a
trip out to east coast and I visited boston University Law School, Harvard
University, Yale. Yeah, Columbia Cornell, N. Y. U. Then I went into
Chicago and I visit to three law schools there. Then I went into san
Francisco bolt hall. I went to los Angeles, USC, visited both of the
schools here at that time. There were no school here law school here at
ASU. So I went over to University of Arizona in Tucson and also recruited
some lawyers out of there. And so what I did was talk to all the students
who were interested in legal services. There were a lot of lawyers that
were interested in working for the legal services program. And so I kept a
file on all of the first year law students, the second year law students,
a third year students at all these law schools and we managed to get
enough funds to bring them out during the summer and they did some
the clerk for us that is um La la Kirk
work for the DNA Legal services program. And I remember when legal
services became so controversial that the yeah federal program, uh I was
having a difficulty dealing with legal services uh project because they
were constantly asking, oh to me good questions of what those federal
agencies were doing like in our case that we were always challenging that
work of the B. I. A. And so I guess the Secretary of Interior got tired of
us and so did all the other federal agencies in Washington. And so there
was a a lot of debate at the american Bar Association about what to do
with the legal services program throughout the nation. And so as a result
uh Legal services Corporation was created uh by the federal government and
for that entity to be separate and apart from all the other programs. And
so that's when I
started working with the first legal services board. And I remember when
people like Hillary Rotman was nominated by one of the president, I
believe it was president carter who recommended her to be on the board.
And then we have from the american indian program also recommended a
person by the name Dick cordell from
California Berkeley California area and he became our representative. And
uh Cecilia is scared. Uh huh. ASU law graduate was also a board member on
that board. And so I worked with all of these folks when they were in
offices,
legal services board representative and so that's how I got to know some
some of these people. And there was even before Hillary Clinton married
Bill Clinton and uh we made our presentation to the board and about some
of the controversies that we were involved in. So the legal services
program was a project that got all the people excited And I believe it was
during the early 1970s
1972 73. We start handling many of the uh Supreme Court cases. We took a
lot of cases the United States Supreme Court. And and we also won a
significant number two raise an issue with the federal agencies
and those cases then became president case nationwide and one of them was
McClanahan case in the state of Arizona where it questioned the taxation
of the state of Arizona on an individual that lives and works on the
neighborhood nation and then having to pay state income tax. And the
Supreme Court ruled that
that Miss Mcclanahan since she has her allegiance to the neighborhood
nation government and she is stationed on the Navajo reservation, she gets
a her income off a program that is located on the reservation. She related
was not obligated to pay state state taxes. So that became a a huge tribal
sovereignty case to me that was kind of like the beginning of the tribal
sovereignty movement throughout the nation and subsequent to the McLanahan
case. Then many of many of the other similar cases was then brought to the
federal courts and that worked its way all the way up to the United States
Supreme Court. So right from the beginning, DNA had this huge, huge impact
about legal impact about some of the cases that was, yeah, handlebar legal
services attorney. And so basically
we had some interesting cases that we handle through federal court system
against the state against the federal government. We also had
many, many cases that were brought to us by neighborhood people. We handle
a large volume of cases and it was not unusual for for example, to be
handling 10 to 12,000 cases per year at DNA legal services. And so that
meant a lot to the neighborhood people. That meant a lot to us. It sent
the message to people that legal services was sorely needed among the poor
people in this country. one of the things that, to me property, the most
important thing that we did, oh, as a legal services program probably was
two
create a situation on the Navajo so that Navajo young people could become
lawyers.
And because up to that point up to 19 67 68, we, as neighborhood nation
did not have one single neighborhood lawyer that was practicing, not there
, who was, who was a law graduate and there was licensed by the state. We
didn't have anyone. And so we were forced to recruit all of the non indian
lawyers from these law schools that are just named. And one of the things
that we did and said at the legal services program was why don't we
institute?
Uh huh. A program at DNA whereby we can go to the local high school,
the local high school throughout the neighborhood nation, get to the
senior class, get to the juniors and sophomores and then start talking to
them about the kind of cases that we were handling and try to motivate the
young Navajo and then help them
get into law school and to do that. We had to work with a scholarship
office. And then one of the other things that I did on the side at uh huh
the legal services program was to create a scholarship for Navajo lawyers.
So I worked very closely with the foundation world in new york and was
able to raise money from them to establish a
Navajo huh
lawyers program scholarship program. I mean and
from the foundations from the corporations and from the tribal government.
We were able to put together a significant amount of funding for any
person
that we have employed whose
a native american who is able capable has the academic credential. They
want to go to law school. We used that newly established fund to send them
on to law school. And it was something that we wanted to do because by
that time we were into the high school talking with the high school kids.
And so by doing that for about maybe uh four or 5 years, all of a sudden
there came a growth among the Navajo young people where many of them were
beginning to take a serious look at the law school. And so as a result,
Something like maybe 10 years later at the start in that program, we began
looking at some real neighborhood lawyers and uh and those neighborhood
lawyers then came back to work for us at D. N. A. As lawyers. And then
from there after they had their experience working at DNA people's legal
services program representing clients and gaining some knowledge about how
they practice, how to practice law than they eventually end up going over
to the neighborhood tribal government as tribal attorneys, as tribal
judges and tribal prosecutors and to help run the tribal government. So
that was really, really excited for me. Probably the most important thing
DNA people's legal services ever did. Yes, we did handle some United
States Supreme Court cases. Yes, we did volumes and volumes of legal cases
that were so important to the Navajo people. But above all of that, I
think is the creation of the young people and big having them become
interested in going to law school and some day becoming lawyers and uh and
as a result after doing that for maybe about 10 years being heavily
involved in local schools and creating the atmosphere young among people
that they are able, they are capable individual. If they have a good
credential
scholastic ability, then we were able to influence their life by going to
law school. That to me was probably the most important thing that we did.
And so, and that was the work of the legal services program. And very
proud to say that to this day, DNA Just celebrated its 40th anniversary,
uh, this past summer and the program is still running program is still
operating. The program is still representing a significant number of
Navajo people and not only the neighborhood people, but others somewhere
alone the way somewhere uh, in the mid 1970s, uh, In late 1970s,
many of the other indian tribes adjacent to the Navajo who also wanted to
have a legal services program of its own, for example, the Hopi and then
the White Mountain Apache and then all of the other indigent poor people
in these border towns like gallup and farmington page Flagstaff. Uh, in
all those areas also wanted to have legal services program of their own.
So, DNA was able to mm hmm,
establish those offices in those areas in those areas. One on the Hopi and
one on the White Mountain Apache for example, And then maybe one or 2 in
other cities. And so it now has a significant, yeah clientele base that
goes beyond the Navajo nation. So it expanded and not only in terms of
their services but with the number of employees and then also there
ability to generate a tremendous amount of mhm local support for the
program. And so I'm very proud to say that what whatever groundwork we
laid was to ensure that the continuity of DNA people's legal services
program, many of the uh american indian students that come to the law
school here at A. S. U. They'll always say certain about them becoming
interested in law because of what they experience and what they saw DNA
people's legal services program. And so that was something that uh uh that
we did right from the beginning was to create the kind of atmosphere among
the and then people here in the southwest.
I think that's something that I just wanted to say about the legal
services program. Maybe there are others that you want to ask me and you
just took a break for a minute, take a breather. That was terrific. I
thought that was that was your of the
interviews or the conversations we've had so far. That one really was
excellent. I thought and I was glad you went to went ahead without me. Um
I left some questions for you. I don't know if you saw those that were,
they were left for you in the in your mailbox, in indian studies and so um
and but you were of course speaking to a number of those points anyway, as
I knew you, I knew you would. I just didn't quite get there in time to
catch you yesterday afternoon. So, but it was these were just sort of some
ideas I had about things you could, you know, talk to. We don't have to do
it today. We could do it another time, Okay.