WEBVTT 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:04.266 So we are now recording and that's the stop button, put this on, you can 00:00:04.299 --> 00:00:07.986 put it on so you can hear yourself and you're good to go. Okay, thank you 00:00:08.019 --> 00:00:12.506 very much. Thank you. 00:00:12.539 --> 00:00:15.607 Testing 1 2 3. 00:00:15.640 --> 00:00:23.640 Testing testing, Testing 1 2 3. Uh today is September the 18th, 207 00:00:28.339 --> 00:00:35.836 and today's session with Peter Iversen, I will be talking about D. N. A. 00:00:35.869 --> 00:00:43.869 People's Legal Services. Uh, the legal services program, I was born in 00:00:44.609 --> 00:00:52.609 1967 on the Navajo Nation. And it was really a program that came as a 00:00:53.750 --> 00:00:59.516 result of President johnson's war on poverty program. At the federal level 00:00:59.549 --> 00:01:07.549 , the Congress established an Office Call Office of Economic Opportunity. 00:01:08.540 --> 00:01:15.156 And under that there were various programs such as the Head Start Program 00:01:15.189 --> 00:01:22.387 , Home improvement Program, Community Development Education program and 00:01:22.420 --> 00:01:29.497 things like that that would benefit the poor people in this country. And 00:01:29.530 --> 00:01:36.027 one of the components that Office of Economic Opportunity was a program 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:43.647 called Legal services for the poor. And the Navajo nation took advantage 00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:51.680 of uh that program by applying through the Office of Navajo Economic 00:01:51.939 --> 00:01:59.939 Opportunity program. Sometimes around 1966, 00:02:01.140 --> 00:02:07.236 the neighborhood nation government established its own officer, never Who 00:02:07.269 --> 00:02:15.269 Economic opportunity. And that agency then applied for fundings that are 00:02:15.979 --> 00:02:22.487 made available through the Federal Office of Economic opportunity program 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:29.506 in Washington, D. C. And one of the components that was very controversial 00:02:29.539 --> 00:02:36.906 from the beginning was uh the Legal services program because legal 00:02:36.939 --> 00:02:43.726 services program was designed to help individuals who cannot afford the 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:51.759 services of an attorney where people that are a low income level families 00:02:52.669 --> 00:03:00.669 and individual can seek the advice of an attorney that's employed by never 00:03:02.039 --> 00:03:09.837 who legal services project. And that was something that the neighborhood 00:03:09.870 --> 00:03:17.707 community and the local people really wanted to have was an independent 00:03:17.740 --> 00:03:23.566 program where the tribal government will not interfere with whatever those 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:29.677 lawyers are doing in pursuing, 00:03:29.710 --> 00:03:37.710 in providing justice to many of the cases that were brought before the 00:03:37.930 --> 00:03:45.696 local people. And it was very interesting just to uh see the beginning of 00:03:45.729 --> 00:03:53.729 that program because of the need to have an independent legal services. Uh 00:03:55.039 --> 00:04:00.856 , the neighborhood nation had to be very, very careful in terms of how 00:04:00.889 --> 00:04:08.756 they place uh this program in the hands of the local folks. So uh some 00:04:08.789 --> 00:04:13.106 sometimes in early 1967, 00:04:13.139 --> 00:04:21.139 we organize a community support uh program for the legal services. We went 00:04:26.259 --> 00:04:34.259 to the local chapters, we went to the five Never Who Agency. We explained 00:04:34.269 --> 00:04:39.317 the legal services program to them. Then each chapter selected what they 00:04:39.350 --> 00:04:46.077 call D. N. A. Representative and they were the people who represented The 00:04:46.110 --> 00:04:49.906 110 chapters throughout the neighbourhood Nation. And then those 00:04:49.939 --> 00:04:57.939 representatives then became part of the agency counsel. And so there were 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:04.056 five agency council. There were 110 chapter representative throughout the 00:05:04.089 --> 00:05:11.866 Navajo nation. And it was that group that then form the Border Directors 00:05:11.899 --> 00:05:19.577 for the legal services program. And so it became a very, very strong group 00:05:19.610 --> 00:05:27.567 because it was deeply rooted into neighborhood communities and right from 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:34.457 the onset of the program. Right from the beginning, many of these 00:05:34.490 --> 00:05:39.627 individual neighborhood started going to legal services attorneys for 00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:46.106 advice and for representation. And they immediately start clashing with 00:05:46.139 --> 00:05:52.207 the powers that be on the neighborhood. For example, the local schools, 00:05:52.240 --> 00:06:00.240 the public schools, the B. I. A. Local agencies and even with the agency 00:06:01.779 --> 00:06:08.507 of the tribal government. And we even had a dispute with the tribal court 00:06:08.540 --> 00:06:15.096 and the way the courts were set up and the manner in which the way the 00:06:15.129 --> 00:06:20.096 tribal judges made their decision. So basically that's that's what 00:06:20.129 --> 00:06:27.536 happened with the organization of the uh DNA people's Legal services 00:06:27.569 --> 00:06:35.387 program. And uh the Navajo people really took pride uh in working with the 00:06:35.420 --> 00:06:41.666 legal services program because for the first time in their lives, uh they 00:06:41.699 --> 00:06:48.096 could seek the advice of lawyers on their particular situation. There were 00:06:48.129 --> 00:06:56.027 many, many Navajo people who buy cars vehicles after reservation. They 00:06:56.060 --> 00:07:04.060 enter into lot of questionable uh dealings with some of the car dealers. 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:07.507 They 00:07:07.540 --> 00:07:13.116 were individuals sometimes that did not speak english very well and they 00:07:13.149 --> 00:07:17.606 had to sign a contract with the car dealers and they really didn't 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:25.639 understand what the Mhm defined lines indicated in those contracts. And so 00:07:26.579 --> 00:07:33.606 as a result, the car dealers in many cases took advantage of the non 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:37.856 english speaking neighborhood people because many of these neighborhood 00:07:37.889 --> 00:07:45.889 people were working for, for example, the coal companies and uh the huge 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:52.587 companies that were operating employing Neverhood on the reservation. And 00:07:52.620 --> 00:07:58.877 so it was those individuals that organized themselves into groups that 00:07:58.910 --> 00:08:04.577 really called for uh the establishment of a legal services program for the 00:08:04.610 --> 00:08:09.406 Navajo. Uh huh personally, 00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:16.507 in 19 66 I was working for 00:08:16.540 --> 00:08:24.540 Arizona State University as an instructor for another O. E. O. Program 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:32.907 called Vista Volunteers. Vista Volunteers was a domestic Peace Corps 00:08:32.940 --> 00:08:40.940 program. Prior to the establishment the visa program In 1966, under the 00:08:42.039 --> 00:08:50.039 leadership of john f Kennedy. Uh, he established a Peace Corps program and 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:55.146 that was very successful. People got really excited about what Peace Corps 00:08:55.179 --> 00:09:00.837 was all about about and then how they were able to go to these different 00:09:00.870 --> 00:09:07.167 countries throughout the world and help some of the unfortunate people to 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:13.587 deal with their economic affairs to deal with uh their their problems uh, 00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:20.427 in those countries. So it became a very visible program. It did a lot in 00:09:20.460 --> 00:09:25.236 terms of our relationship with those other countries because we were sent 00:09:25.269 --> 00:09:33.269 in uh people to help the poor folks. And uh and that caught the eyes of 00:09:34.009 --> 00:09:42.009 many of the young aspired individuals here too, To volunteer themselves to 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:49.577 take two or 3 years out of their life and uh and devote some of those time 00:09:49.610 --> 00:09:55.896 to happen the poor throughout the world. And so uh the Visa program was 00:09:55.929 --> 00:10:02.837 just a domestic program at the Peace Corps and MR program where assigned 00:10:02.870 --> 00:10:09.356 in Volunteers throughout the United States and the indian tribes we're a 00:10:09.389 --> 00:10:15.567 good candidate for much of what MR had to offer. And so I became the 00:10:15.600 --> 00:10:23.266 instructor here at Arizona State University to train with the Volunteers 00:10:23.299 --> 00:10:31.299 that volunteered their services for Uh 2-4 years out of their life A. S. U. 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:38.937 As a university approach. Oh eo in Washington and they got the funding to 00:10:38.970 --> 00:10:46.217 do this. Of course ASU was also an institution that trained the Peace 00:10:46.250 --> 00:10:53.476 Corps Volunteers. And so that's how I got myself involved. I was doing 00:10:53.509 --> 00:10:59.307 very very well prior to that as a construction estimator for the 00:10:59.340 --> 00:11:06.927 neighborhood nation. And I was happy with building a lot of the facilities 00:11:06.960 --> 00:11:11.677 and buildings that we now have on the reservation it was a chance where I 00:11:11.710 --> 00:11:18.817 could work with my hands and a lot of men hours, labor man hours that went 00:11:18.850 --> 00:11:26.850 into what I was doing. But one day I was recruited by a couple of the 00:11:27.659 --> 00:11:34.457 people that I admire very much. And one of them was the late dr bob 00:11:34.490 --> 00:11:41.177 russell and another individual name malin parker. They both indicated that 00:11:41.210 --> 00:11:47.106 they would like for me to come to a shoe and help them train MR Volunteers. 00:11:47.139 --> 00:11:55.139 And so I did that for a couple of years maybe. And then I went back to 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:04.000 the Navajo nation in the early 1967 because one day I was teaching uh in a 00:12:04.179 --> 00:12:09.766 classroom here at a. S. U. Teaching the vista volunteers and I saw this 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:17.799 one person walking back and forth in the hallway. And that when the door 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:25.106 came people came the students came. And when the door opened, that guy, 00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:30.187 God didn't look familiar. And I knew that he was not from the southwest oh 00:12:30.220 --> 00:12:38.220 from Arizona because he was wearing a real loud next high and he had a 00:12:40.610 --> 00:12:48.610 nice suit And he was just a young man, maybe 28, 30 years old. And uh and 00:12:50.179 --> 00:12:55.157 when I was finished with my class, this person came into my class and he 00:12:55.190 --> 00:13:02.457 started talking with me, he introduced himself as Theodore r Mitchell and 00:13:02.490 --> 00:13:07.317 he says that I am a recent graduate of Harvard Law school, I actually went 00:13:07.350 --> 00:13:15.047 to school here at phoenix union in phoenix Arizona and I did my, I got my 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:22.537 law degree from Harvard University just about eight months ago and I am 00:13:22.570 --> 00:13:30.006 the new director of Legal services program that they want me to establish. 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:34.217 And he says that I am here to talk to you to see if I can convince you to 00:13:34.250 --> 00:13:40.297 come back to the Navajo. And uh I told him I was happy at a S. U. I was 00:13:40.330 --> 00:13:48.330 living here. I I was buying the house and happy with my family. So he just 00:13:49.269 --> 00:13:54.677 said well if you are to come with me here is some of the things that we 00:13:54.710 --> 00:14:02.587 want to do. So we just had that conversation in the classroom and then he 00:14:02.620 --> 00:14:06.047 says, I'll come back some other time because I've got a lot of business to 00:14:06.080 --> 00:14:13.337 do here in phoenix. And so the next time, Maybe three weeks or a month 00:14:13.370 --> 00:14:18.567 later he came back and he says that, have you made up your mind, have you 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:24.886 thought about what I told you? And so are? Uh Mr Mitchell was very, very 00:14:24.919 --> 00:14:31.236 aggressive and so then I started thinking about what he was telling me and 00:14:31.269 --> 00:14:38.317 he said, I really, really need help, I really need help in the area of 00:14:38.350 --> 00:14:44.307 working with the Navajo people. Since you have the ability to talk Navajo 00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:50.246 and you also have the ability to speak very well english. And you had the 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:55.337 experience in both the neighborhood culture, neighborhood society, 00:14:55.370 --> 00:14:58.766 neighborhood communities. And then he also had the experience of living 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:05.376 here in phoenix and where you know, the non end is very well, I just, I 00:15:05.409 --> 00:15:10.307 really, really need that kind of a person to help me start this project. 00:15:10.340 --> 00:15:16.087 And at that time the legal services program did not have a name. So as we 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:21.636 organized throughout the Navajo reservation, uh working with the local 00:15:21.669 --> 00:15:28.506 people who were selected uh and elected by the local people to serve under 00:15:28.539 --> 00:15:34.866 legal services board and representative, we started working in, in 00:15:34.899 --> 00:15:39.407 formalizing a formal organization 00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:47.207 and And work with the local bar association from the three states. Mhm 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:53.126 mainly Utah Arizona and New Mexico. Each of these states had what they 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:59.207 call a bar association. The 00:15:59.240 --> 00:16:04.307 lawyers belong to those bar, local bar association, county bars and state 00:16:04.340 --> 00:16:10.177 bars. And they had representative on D. N. A. Uh people's legal services 00:16:10.210 --> 00:16:17.557 board and of course the legal services program became that later on. And 00:16:17.590 --> 00:16:24.697 so from those state bar association and then from the local agency council 00:16:24.730 --> 00:16:32.016 and chapters, we form a board And I remember one of the first meeting that 00:16:32.049 --> 00:16:37.266 we had, we needed interpreters because many of the Navajo people who got 00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:43.587 on the Legal services board did not know how to speak english. And one 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:50.476 particular person that was of interest to me was an elderly person. I 00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:57.787 believe he was about 80 years old at the time a person by the name of john 00:16:57.820 --> 00:17:03.626 Rockbridge and john Rockbridge came from black Mesa area on the 00:17:03.659 --> 00:17:10.996 neighborhood nation. And john was one of these individuals was a tribal 00:17:11.029 --> 00:17:17.486 judge way back and 30s and the 40s 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:24.377 and he was very wise individual and he became a board member. He didn't 00:17:24.410 --> 00:17:30.677 speak english and so he needed interpreter. And so the the program 00:17:30.710 --> 00:17:36.786 director Tate Mitchell always wanted me to put a microphone on his head on 00:17:36.819 --> 00:17:43.157 his ears and I was his interpreter interpreting to john what the 00:17:43.190 --> 00:17:49.467 procedures of the meeting and the subject of naming the legal services 00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:54.516 program was the first on the agenda and how it should be organized and the 00:17:54.549 --> 00:18:00.286 by laws had to be adopted by the, at the board and then formalizing the 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:05.556 board. So those basic basic things had to be done. And the subject of 00:18:05.589 --> 00:18:08.947 naming the legal services program. I thought it was going to be just a 00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:16.980 simple, Maybe five minute discussion. But I was wrong. The naming of the 00:18:17.289 --> 00:18:25.289 program took about 2-3 hours a long debate on naming. And finally, john 00:18:27.970 --> 00:18:33.417 ross ulbrich rose at the board meeting. He says, I would like to speak to 00:18:33.450 --> 00:18:40.316 the issue. And uh, and he explained very, very eloquently what went in his 00:18:40.349 --> 00:18:46.207 mind as a discussion took place. And as he listened to the, to the debate 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:53.306 and he says, I want to make a motion in naming this legal services board 00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:59.486 and I want to call it then 00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:07.519 I and everybody kind of laugh and they said that Mr Lazar, you have to now 00:19:09.259 --> 00:19:14.826 interpret all of that into english english meaning what did Mr roberts say 00:19:14.859 --> 00:19:22.859 ? And so what it really meant was uh, then is the people between is 00:19:24.920 --> 00:19:31.877 culture. No Hill is the revitalization. And so what john had in mind was 00:19:31.910 --> 00:19:38.147 that why don't we call this program the Navajo people's program and the 00:19:38.180 --> 00:19:46.180 cultural revitalization. That's what we're trying to do. And then all that 00:19:46.509 --> 00:19:53.576 concept is lawyers, Bella vita means it's lawyers. And so that's the way 00:19:53.609 --> 00:20:01.609 that john explained it. And so we named the program then that no hell no, 00:20:02.809 --> 00:20:10.809 did I. And so john, his motion carried and that's how uh the program got 00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:22.630 its name. It was through an old experience wise individuals who had a lot 00:20:22.750 --> 00:20:28.687 of experience and working with the courts and judging cases that came 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:34.467 before him. And I always admired john roberts well what he did. And then I 00:20:34.500 --> 00:20:38.707 got to know john very well because he was involved in many of the cases 00:20:38.740 --> 00:20:44.806 that we, that we handle. He appeared in federal courts with us. I was 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:50.486 always his interpreter. And while I was doing all of that, I learned a 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:58.519 tremendous amount of Navajo values Navajo culture, neighborhood language, 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:04.607 the behavioral pattern of the elderly people 00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:12.036 and even learning how to speak to people and uh, the protocol that people 00:21:12.069 --> 00:21:18.617 have to go through. And so not only was I being helpful to join by 00:21:18.650 --> 00:21:24.506 interpreting for him, but I learned so much from that individual because 00:21:24.539 --> 00:21:30.877 he was always in high demand to come to federal court for example, and 00:21:30.910 --> 00:21:38.306 many of these cases. Uh, and he had a good sense of humor at the same time 00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:46.339 and shine and lived to be Over 90 years old until we lost him sometimes in 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:54.920 the late 19 seventies. And so he was one of the, in my, in my own mind and 00:21:55.759 --> 00:22:03.306 outstanding a spokesman for the Navajo people. He always, 00:22:03.339 --> 00:22:10.806 I had some wise things to say. He didn't say much throughout the day, but 00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:15.177 when he decides to open his mouth and talk will tell young people you 00:22:15.210 --> 00:22:19.457 better listen because he doesn't always talk all the time. But when he 00:22:19.490 --> 00:22:24.467 does there are some good thing is that I think that comes out of that 00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:30.617 individual. And so basically that's how the program was was named. We were 00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:36.377 getting something like maybe at the beginning uh, Almost $3 million 00:22:36.410 --> 00:22:44.026 dollars a year. And that enables us to hire about 30 lawyers. Yeah, About 00:22:44.059 --> 00:22:51.847 30 tribal court advocates. The advocates were lay advocates who practiced 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:57.266 law in the neighborhood nation courts and then we had all the other 00:22:57.299 --> 00:23:05.299 support staff. Uh huh. The thing that was also intriguing to me was uh, 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:11.756 when I asked the program director ted Mitchell, I says ted we have this 00:23:11.789 --> 00:23:17.566 money from office of economic opportunity, but nowhere in there does it 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:23.076 say that we should use these monies for the building of the officers. We 00:23:23.109 --> 00:23:29.637 don't have any office space. Uh where are we going to get office facility 00:23:29.670 --> 00:23:34.927 ? We've got to have an office in all the five agencies throughout the 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:41.516 neighborhood nation. And uh ted just kind of listened, I smile a little 00:23:41.549 --> 00:23:47.607 and he says mr Lazar, that's why I hired you, you, you figured that out 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:55.640 how we can get these facilities and he says, if you can't find him create 00:23:56.039 --> 00:24:01.226 them, you build the office because you're a carpenter. And he says, I 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:05.496 remember looking at your resume, you're a journeyman carpenter. So you 00:24:05.529 --> 00:24:10.717 should just help me build those offices. So the next thing I did was that 00:24:10.750 --> 00:24:17.107 I went to the never who force products industry, which was a tribal 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:24.427 program and they were the people who, who had the sawmill established in 00:24:24.460 --> 00:24:29.947 neighborhood New Mexico and they were cutting trees and hauling in logs 00:24:29.980 --> 00:24:37.980 and they were producing lumber. And so I went to them and I had some 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:46.440 Boards two x 4s to buy two x 6 that those kinds of materials that we need 00:24:46.950 --> 00:24:52.526 to build officers. They, it was donated by the Navajo Forest products 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:58.806 industry board and then we bought some of that using the legal services. 00:24:58.839 --> 00:25:03.947 So we built a five officers throughout the Navajo nation And we put all 00:25:03.980 --> 00:25:08.647 that, the 30 lawyers into those officers to begin working with people. And 00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:16.177 right when the beginning, many, many neighborhood people came to those 00:25:16.210 --> 00:25:22.627 offices and I could remember when we opened those offices after building 00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:27.266 them, opening those office. We have, we would have a grand opening the 00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:35.299 next day, the reception room was just full clientele people ready to see 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:42.417 lawyers see tribal court advocates. And it was something that was really 00:25:42.450 --> 00:25:50.450 also amazing to me how the program was really, really mhm needed. It only 00:25:51.650 --> 00:25:57.266 brought up this concept that the Navajo people were looking for uh the 00:25:57.299 --> 00:26:05.056 advice and the work of lawyers. And so that was the beginning of the DNA 00:26:05.089 --> 00:26:10.857 people's legal services program. Many, many of the 30 non Indian lawyers 00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:16.806 that we had in the program really did not have all that much experience. 00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:23.167 And uh and I think we hired two or three experienced lawyers at the 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:28.197 phoenix and farming town in Albuquerque. And their job was just to work 00:26:28.230 --> 00:26:34.947 with an inexperienced uh lawyers that came out of the law school in being 00:26:34.980 --> 00:26:40.927 lawyers. And so that's how the program was built as far as the work of the 00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:44.407 legal services attorney. 00:26:44.440 --> 00:26:51.316 And then one of the other things that, that I hated within that program 00:26:51.349 --> 00:26:57.937 and one of my responsibility was to recruit lawyers. And so every year I 00:26:57.970 --> 00:27:05.437 used to pack up my luggage and my toothbrush and all of that. And I took a 00:27:05.470 --> 00:27:12.336 trip out to east coast and I visited boston University Law School, Harvard 00:27:12.369 --> 00:27:20.369 University, Yale. Yeah, Columbia Cornell, N. Y. U. Then I went into 00:27:20.779 --> 00:27:27.367 Chicago and I visit to three law schools there. Then I went into san 00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:35.246 Francisco bolt hall. I went to los Angeles, USC, visited both of the 00:27:35.279 --> 00:27:38.677 schools here at that time. There were no school here law school here at 00:27:38.710 --> 00:27:44.857 ASU. So I went over to University of Arizona in Tucson and also recruited 00:27:44.890 --> 00:27:51.296 some lawyers out of there. And so what I did was talk to all the students 00:27:51.329 --> 00:27:54.726 who were interested in legal services. There were a lot of lawyers that 00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:59.127 were interested in working for the legal services program. And so I kept a 00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:03.746 file on all of the first year law students, the second year law students, 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:11.036 a third year students at all these law schools and we managed to get 00:28:11.069 --> 00:28:17.207 enough funds to bring them out during the summer and they did some 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:23.006 the clerk for us that is um La la Kirk 00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:29.177 work for the DNA Legal services program. And I remember when legal 00:28:29.210 --> 00:28:37.210 services became so controversial that the yeah federal program, uh I was 00:28:39.069 --> 00:28:43.847 having a difficulty dealing with legal services uh project because they 00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:49.976 were constantly asking, oh to me good questions of what those federal 00:28:50.009 --> 00:28:55.306 agencies were doing like in our case that we were always challenging that 00:28:55.339 --> 00:29:01.407 work of the B. I. A. And so I guess the Secretary of Interior got tired of 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:07.326 us and so did all the other federal agencies in Washington. And so there 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:14.407 was a a lot of debate at the american Bar Association about what to do 00:29:14.440 --> 00:29:20.806 with the legal services program throughout the nation. And so as a result 00:29:20.839 --> 00:29:28.839 uh Legal services Corporation was created uh by the federal government and 00:29:29.730 --> 00:29:35.147 for that entity to be separate and apart from all the other programs. And 00:29:35.180 --> 00:29:39.506 so that's when I 00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:45.607 started working with the first legal services board. And I remember when 00:29:45.640 --> 00:29:53.640 people like Hillary Rotman was nominated by one of the president, I 00:29:53.880 --> 00:30:00.707 believe it was president carter who recommended her to be on the board. 00:30:00.740 --> 00:30:05.467 And then we have from the american indian program also recommended a 00:30:05.500 --> 00:30:12.407 person by the name Dick cordell from 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:18.167 California Berkeley California area and he became our representative. And 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:26.200 uh Cecilia is scared. Uh huh. ASU law graduate was also a board member on 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:36.746 that board. And so I worked with all of these folks when they were in 00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:39.006 offices, 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:45.897 legal services board representative and so that's how I got to know some 00:30:45.930 --> 00:30:50.717 some of these people. And there was even before Hillary Clinton married 00:30:50.750 --> 00:30:57.707 Bill Clinton and uh we made our presentation to the board and about some 00:30:57.740 --> 00:31:02.326 of the controversies that we were involved in. So the legal services 00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:09.776 program was a project that got all the people excited And I believe it was 00:31:09.809 --> 00:31:13.397 during the early 1970s 00:31:13.430 --> 00:31:21.430 1972 73. We start handling many of the uh Supreme Court cases. We took a 00:31:23.980 --> 00:31:30.536 lot of cases the United States Supreme Court. And and we also won a 00:31:30.569 --> 00:31:38.569 significant number two raise an issue with the federal agencies 00:31:39.740 --> 00:31:47.740 and those cases then became president case nationwide and one of them was 00:31:48.130 --> 00:31:54.776 McClanahan case in the state of Arizona where it questioned the taxation 00:31:54.809 --> 00:32:02.809 of the state of Arizona on an individual that lives and works on the 00:32:02.970 --> 00:32:08.707 neighborhood nation and then having to pay state income tax. And the 00:32:08.740 --> 00:32:12.207 Supreme Court ruled that 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:17.776 that Miss Mcclanahan since she has her allegiance to the neighborhood 00:32:17.809 --> 00:32:24.046 nation government and she is stationed on the Navajo reservation, she gets 00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:32.079 a her income off a program that is located on the reservation. She related 00:32:33.190 --> 00:32:41.190 was not obligated to pay state state taxes. So that became a a huge tribal 00:32:42.339 --> 00:32:47.536 sovereignty case to me that was kind of like the beginning of the tribal 00:32:47.569 --> 00:32:53.026 sovereignty movement throughout the nation and subsequent to the McLanahan 00:32:53.059 --> 00:33:01.059 case. Then many of many of the other similar cases was then brought to the 00:33:01.440 --> 00:33:05.246 federal courts and that worked its way all the way up to the United States 00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:11.806 Supreme Court. So right from the beginning, DNA had this huge, huge impact 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:19.839 about legal impact about some of the cases that was, yeah, handlebar legal 00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:27.476 services attorney. And so basically 00:33:27.509 --> 00:33:34.306 we had some interesting cases that we handle through federal court system 00:33:34.339 --> 00:33:42.339 against the state against the federal government. We also had 00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:49.107 many, many cases that were brought to us by neighborhood people. We handle 00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:57.140 a large volume of cases and it was not unusual for for example, to be 00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:05.519 handling 10 to 12,000 cases per year at DNA legal services. And so that 00:34:08.900 --> 00:34:14.177 meant a lot to the neighborhood people. That meant a lot to us. It sent 00:34:14.210 --> 00:34:19.856 the message to people that legal services was sorely needed among the poor 00:34:19.889 --> 00:34:26.376 people in this country. one of the things that, to me property, the most 00:34:26.409 --> 00:34:34.307 important thing that we did, oh, as a legal services program probably was 00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:38.106 two 00:34:38.139 --> 00:34:44.666 create a situation on the Navajo so that Navajo young people could become 00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:46.807 lawyers. 00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:54.840 And because up to that point up to 19 67 68, we, as neighborhood nation 00:34:57.059 --> 00:35:01.756 did not have one single neighborhood lawyer that was practicing, not there 00:35:01.789 --> 00:35:07.646 , who was, who was a law graduate and there was licensed by the state. We 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:15.276 didn't have anyone. And so we were forced to recruit all of the non indian 00:35:15.309 --> 00:35:21.657 lawyers from these law schools that are just named. And one of the things 00:35:21.690 --> 00:35:29.690 that we did and said at the legal services program was why don't we 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.006 institute? 00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:42.039 Uh huh. A program at DNA whereby we can go to the local high school, 00:35:44.909 --> 00:35:49.477 the local high school throughout the neighborhood nation, get to the 00:35:49.510 --> 00:35:55.896 senior class, get to the juniors and sophomores and then start talking to 00:35:55.929 --> 00:36:02.197 them about the kind of cases that we were handling and try to motivate the 00:36:02.230 --> 00:36:07.197 young Navajo and then help them 00:36:07.230 --> 00:36:12.887 get into law school and to do that. We had to work with a scholarship 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:20.920 office. And then one of the other things that I did on the side at uh huh 00:36:22.329 --> 00:36:27.396 the legal services program was to create a scholarship for Navajo lawyers. 00:36:27.429 --> 00:36:35.429 So I worked very closely with the foundation world in new york and was 00:36:35.849 --> 00:36:41.597 able to raise money from them to establish a 00:36:41.630 --> 00:36:45.796 Navajo huh 00:36:45.829 --> 00:36:53.829 lawyers program scholarship program. I mean and 00:36:54.530 --> 00:36:59.296 from the foundations from the corporations and from the tribal government. 00:36:59.329 --> 00:37:07.329 We were able to put together a significant amount of funding for any 00:37:09.730 --> 00:37:11.796 person 00:37:11.829 --> 00:37:17.296 that we have employed whose 00:37:17.329 --> 00:37:23.626 a native american who is able capable has the academic credential. They 00:37:23.659 --> 00:37:27.756 want to go to law school. We used that newly established fund to send them 00:37:27.789 --> 00:37:34.606 on to law school. And it was something that we wanted to do because by 00:37:34.639 --> 00:37:40.597 that time we were into the high school talking with the high school kids. 00:37:40.630 --> 00:37:48.630 And so by doing that for about maybe uh four or 5 years, all of a sudden 00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:56.066 there came a growth among the Navajo young people where many of them were 00:37:56.099 --> 00:38:02.287 beginning to take a serious look at the law school. And so as a result, 00:38:02.320 --> 00:38:10.006 Something like maybe 10 years later at the start in that program, we began 00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:16.477 looking at some real neighborhood lawyers and uh and those neighborhood 00:38:16.510 --> 00:38:21.896 lawyers then came back to work for us at D. N. A. As lawyers. And then 00:38:21.929 --> 00:38:28.026 from there after they had their experience working at DNA people's legal 00:38:28.059 --> 00:38:36.059 services program representing clients and gaining some knowledge about how 00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:42.376 they practice, how to practice law than they eventually end up going over 00:38:42.409 --> 00:38:48.697 to the neighborhood tribal government as tribal attorneys, as tribal 00:38:48.730 --> 00:38:56.146 judges and tribal prosecutors and to help run the tribal government. So 00:38:56.179 --> 00:39:02.046 that was really, really excited for me. Probably the most important thing 00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.736 DNA people's legal services ever did. Yes, we did handle some United 00:39:07.769 --> 00:39:15.769 States Supreme Court cases. Yes, we did volumes and volumes of legal cases 00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:22.566 that were so important to the Navajo people. But above all of that, I 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:28.827 think is the creation of the young people and big having them become 00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:35.557 interested in going to law school and some day becoming lawyers and uh and 00:39:35.590 --> 00:39:40.847 as a result after doing that for maybe about 10 years being heavily 00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:46.026 involved in local schools and creating the atmosphere young among people 00:39:46.059 --> 00:39:53.267 that they are able, they are capable individual. If they have a good 00:39:53.300 --> 00:39:55.387 credential 00:39:55.420 --> 00:40:01.046 scholastic ability, then we were able to influence their life by going to 00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:07.376 law school. That to me was probably the most important thing that we did. 00:40:07.409 --> 00:40:14.017 And so, and that was the work of the legal services program. And very 00:40:14.050 --> 00:40:20.876 proud to say that to this day, DNA Just celebrated its 40th anniversary, 00:40:20.909 --> 00:40:28.506 uh, this past summer and the program is still running program is still 00:40:28.539 --> 00:40:33.967 operating. The program is still representing a significant number of 00:40:34.000 --> 00:40:42.000 Navajo people and not only the neighborhood people, but others somewhere 00:40:42.179 --> 00:40:50.179 alone the way somewhere uh, in the mid 1970s, uh, In late 1970s, 00:40:53.610 --> 00:40:59.916 many of the other indian tribes adjacent to the Navajo who also wanted to 00:40:59.949 --> 00:41:05.827 have a legal services program of its own, for example, the Hopi and then 00:41:05.860 --> 00:41:13.860 the White Mountain Apache and then all of the other indigent poor people 00:41:14.809 --> 00:41:21.537 in these border towns like gallup and farmington page Flagstaff. Uh, in 00:41:21.570 --> 00:41:26.077 all those areas also wanted to have legal services program of their own. 00:41:26.110 --> 00:41:32.677 So, DNA was able to mm hmm, 00:41:32.710 --> 00:41:38.767 establish those offices in those areas in those areas. One on the Hopi and 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:44.796 one on the White Mountain Apache for example, And then maybe one or 2 in 00:41:44.829 --> 00:41:52.829 other cities. And so it now has a significant, yeah clientele base that 00:41:54.920 --> 00:42:02.920 goes beyond the Navajo nation. So it expanded and not only in terms of 00:42:03.360 --> 00:42:11.360 their services but with the number of employees and then also there 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:20.000 ability to generate a tremendous amount of mhm local support for the 00:42:20.280 --> 00:42:27.876 program. And so I'm very proud to say that what whatever groundwork we 00:42:27.909 --> 00:42:35.909 laid was to ensure that the continuity of DNA people's legal services 00:42:35.949 --> 00:42:41.677 program, many of the uh american indian students that come to the law 00:42:41.710 --> 00:42:47.756 school here at A. S. U. They'll always say certain about them becoming 00:42:47.789 --> 00:42:52.936 interested in law because of what they experience and what they saw DNA 00:42:52.969 --> 00:43:00.717 people's legal services program. And so that was something that uh uh that 00:43:00.750 --> 00:43:04.947 we did right from the beginning was to create the kind of atmosphere among 00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:12.980 the and then people here in the southwest. 00:43:13.300 --> 00:43:20.166 I think that's something that I just wanted to say about the legal 00:43:20.199 --> 00:43:24.106 services program. Maybe there are others that you want to ask me and you 00:43:24.139 --> 00:43:28.197 just took a break for a minute, take a breather. That was terrific. I 00:43:28.230 --> 00:43:32.267 thought that was that was your of the 00:43:32.300 --> 00:43:38.367 interviews or the conversations we've had so far. That one really was 00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:45.287 excellent. I thought and I was glad you went to went ahead without me. Um 00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:48.916 I left some questions for you. I don't know if you saw those that were, 00:43:48.949 --> 00:43:55.267 they were left for you in the in your mailbox, in indian studies and so um 00:43:55.300 --> 00:43:59.256 and but you were of course speaking to a number of those points anyway, as 00:43:59.289 --> 00:44:02.206 I knew you, I knew you would. I just didn't quite get there in time to 00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:06.597 catch you yesterday afternoon. So, but it was these were just sort of some 00:44:06.630 --> 00:44:13.956 ideas I had about things you could, you know, talk to. We don't have to do 00:44:13.989 --> 00:44:18.000 it today. We could do it another time, Okay.