switch and you just test if it's working if the counter is going down um
you don't have to use this if you don't want to. But right now it's really
just a matter of like if you hear yourself then you know what whether or
not it's coming out. Um if you ever want to posit that use that red pause
and then stop on top. So I think it's and you'll be here in case we run
into some definitely I'll be here if I think technical happens, I can call
up matt. Okay, good deal. So it's ready. It's ready to go now. Yes, it's
counting down now. So if you want to pause it you can pause it. That's
okay. I think we're ready to go. So
understand what
yes
says record here. I said let's
hold on but not parts remember this. Yeah.
You want me to test this? I can't hear it. Yeah, I can't hear it. Okay,
well then I guess we're ready to go. Okay. Okay. Um this is Peter Iversen
, I'm speaking with Peterson zah on several topics today. This is the
What day is that? I can't remember. Um anyway, in roughly mid October 2008
and doctors are one of the things we wanted to talk about it. A little
more detail was the issue of the disagreements and conflicts with the Hopi
nation and recognizing that it's not, it's more complicated story than
most people realize. But you come from that part of Navajo country. Uh huh
be glad to hear more about your perceptions about how this evolved and the
difficulties that the two nations found in trying to resolve or at least
make the, you know, be able to continue with things.
Okay. Maybe prior to that, I can talk a little about the earth, sky and
people that, okay, that's the right order. Sure. Okay, okay. Uh
earth sky and people, one of the things that the Navajo people traditional
people really believe in is that we are uh individuals that respect the
earth and you always have to be thankful for what the earth has to offer
to people. And in our situation living back in low mountain that there was
no difference between what the other traditional Navajo people have taught
the young ones and their sibling and that is that one thing that the earth
has to offer is food to ourselves, to our animals and all the living
things out there that the earth provides and therefore you have to respect
the mother earth. And that means that when it rains particularly during
the female rain uh season, you have to sit down, you have to pay attention
to what the great spirit is trying to tell us. And by these natural forces
such as rain and snow. The great spirit is talking to us through some of
those kinds of events and some of those movements that happen only by the
great, by the force of the great spirit and so early on you, you learned
that and in my situation, uh, that was something that I was taught, you
know, by my grandparents and that is respect for all of the living things.
And it's something that one individual living out there has to really,
really appreciate. And I guess because at those kinds of teaching, I
carried that on later on in life where you know, I respected everybody, I
respected things. I respected uh the woman population what they brought
and, and I guess because of those kinds of feelings, I were closely with
uh anyone, Nika and I made her as my advisor because she was able to bring
on different perspective uh, into my administration and something that you
, you hardly ever hear. Uh, the people say she would be one of those
individuals that gave those uh love and advice. And I know that when she's
talking to you, uh, she has this uh motherly instinct uh, when she talks
to people and you can't help but just listen to her. And uh, and maybe
it's because of those kinds of early on uh things that I learned uh, that
I was able to, to respect people like like her. And it's something that I
think every individual whether they're Navajo or not they have to practice
is the respect that they have for uh, the living things out there,
including uh the earth because the earth is alive and it's something that
uh great spirit only the great spirit can do and then you uh have certain
beliefs, Everybody has certain beliefs. Mine was the neighborhood
traditional belief and people go to church, they have their own religious
belief. And with me, I didn't really pay all that much attention to all of
the other religion because I knew I was at dinner and I was brought up to
believe that concept uh, that there is a great spirit watching over each
and every one of us. And uh, and that was the neighborhood teachers that I
got from my grandparents and from my parents. And as a result, I end up
believing uh, traditional Navajo religious belief and I practiced that
throughout my life. I may not go to every ceremony and participate
intimately uh, during the rose ceremony, but my beliefs were there. He was
just unfortunate that I can't go to, you know, every uh, religious events
that happened in your community and even with your, with your friends and
your relatives. But my belief was there, the spirit is there and to this
day I still do that and it's something that I learned how to appreciate
early on in life also. And it's something that I think every Navajo
individual I need to pay attention to because nowadays there's so many uh
, people out there are groups of people that are trying to entice uh, the
young Navajo to go their way and they're always trying to recruit them
into their own religion and we, as a Navajo people, we have to weigh each
one and try to say to ourselves which one fits me and which one uh is uh
something that I I that I will end up really, really believe in. But you
only decide that after you do your own research and after you ask a lot of
questions uh like the way we should and then you make those decisions and
that's how you decide. And so it's something that I believe the
neighborhood people are are so fortunate in in heaven, is those kinds of
belief where you, you believe in the living things. You believe in
everything that's alive animals and the sky, the whole uh system of
universe that that's out there uh that only the great spirit can make and
that's why on occasion when I'm passing one of the four holy mountain,
like the san Francisco peaks uh or you go over to uh Durango colorado, the
Benson, uh
Mark Hesperus. You stop for a minute and you are give a blessing to live
in things out there because what it does is that it brings to you a
certain beauty that man cannot do. Uh for me when I see the beauty of san
Francisco peaks and the beauty of one of the four holy mountains, uh we
think to myself now we can't do that, we can't make something like that.
We, as people man can't do it only the great spirit and through the great
spirit is mine and hands, the great spirit and uh uh the deities that live
back then were the only ones that can do that. They were in power uh by by
God to do that. And they put these things and they left these things
behind so that we can see that and retain our s static values, our sense
of beauty because in today's world sometimes we live so fast and there are
so many things that are happening, many, many negative things that are
happening. You can't turn on a television each day and expect to hear some
good news. And so when you come by either one of those four holy mountains
, beautiful lake uh you you have to stop and you had to pay uh attention.
You had to pay respect to those places that the great spirit has put uh
those things before man's eyes and I always appreciate it that way. Not
necessarily do the Navajo. People pray to the mountain, but they pray
through the modern, they get to the great spirit. And I think there's a
distinction between the two and so basically that that's that's my belief
and it's something that sometimes or the general public won't really
understand. But when you try to explain those using the english language,
you lose a lot of tastes, you lose a lot of meaning and only one can
explain the full meaning what it means in the neighborhood lander which
and so uh neighborhood people are blessed with. Also that kind of such a
picturesque uh language that that we have to describe whatever it is that
we feel and see from from day to day. So I just wanted to to say that
about the earth and the people thank you going into uh our relationship
with our neighbor, the the Hopi nation that has, that is one of the most
complicated, the most complicated issue. And uh the way I look at it is
that going all the way back hundreds of years ago uh when the state became
uh a state here in, when Arizona became a state here in Arizona. And uh
and then when all these other states were created and then when the United
States government came into being here in north America, uh much of what
we face with the uh hoping nation was something that was created by the
federal government. And so it was basically something that uh that the uh
the federal government decided that they should resolve these issues
certain ways. And when they say that, I always look at the other side of
the coin, which is that
that is something that we didn't really create, but it was created for us
by the federal government. And it was unfortunate uh that many, many of
our people didn't really think of it that way and they just had us
fighting each other for years and years. And uh when when you really study
the topic, it was something that something that the federal government did.
And so basically the Navajo Hopi land dispute is very complicated in that
sense. And uh and it was also something that has been uh ever less than it
seems like, because it went through just so many generations of Navajo
people, it went through so many leadership on both sides, Navajo Hopi. But
I had one thing, I had one thing that I believe in when I went into the
chairmanship in 1983, and that is the concept that the Hopi people aren't
going anywhere. The Navajo people aren't going anywhere either. So we
might as well get along with one another and began getting acquainted with
each other, irregardless of what the land dispute may may bring to the
people uh that we have to coexist and we have to uh live side by side in a
peaceful way. That was my uh philosophy going into uh my chairmanship my
first term, and that I was to make every effort to befriend the Hopi
nation and only through friendship and only through uh you know, something
like what we were made of understanding what we may were made of
traditional way on both sides. Can we bring about understanding and love
uh for each other between our people? Because regardless of what we
thought about 11 another at the time, our younger generation, the Hopi uh
young people and the Navajo young people, they were all inter marrying
many of them were inter marrying with with each other. So, uh that meant
that we as leaders, we had to look at those kinds of uh statistics among
the young people. So therefore our job is to is to make the the young
people and older people understand that we have that uh that that's coming
into both sides of the family. So we had to accept that. And because of
that, I was very, very fortunate to be in office for the neighborhood
nation as its chairman at the same time, that Ivan Sydney was also the
chairman of the Hopi Nation. Ivan and I went to school together at phoenix
indian school, Way back in the 1950s in the mid 1950s. And and we uh knew
each other uh back back then. And uh he was just a little youngsters uh,
that always uh befriended the Navajo people and he was just that kind of a
person, very pleasant individual. And there wasn't any kind of hatefulness
inside of him. He was just a kind a kind person. And so when you know
somebody that way, you don't want to, you don't want to uh begin working
with him in such a way that you try to create any kind of hostility
between you and that particular person. And so I I looked at Ivan that way
because I saw a lot of goodness in what could happen because of our
position. Him being the Hopi leader elected leader and my being the Navajo
Hopi elected leader. And I thought that this was a perfect opportunity to
bring the two tribes back together. But one of the most difficult time
during that period Uh when I got elected in 1960, uh 1919 80 82 and 83,
when I took office in 1983,
it was uh very, very difficult for for both of us because on both sides,
on both sides of the issue, our people, we're not really accepting what we
were trying to do put in the two tribes together because uh in the past
they got polarized politically on the issue of the land ownership and it
was almost impossible to immediately put the two tribes back together. But
we knew that in the long run, if we can give it a try and if we can uh
began to put people uh back on direct or the right track of a friendly
coexistence that in the long run is going to work out and people are going
to cooperate and people are going to work together for one common good of
both. Uh uh both tribes, individuals from both tribes. We we knew that and
so, but it was a big heavy political risk on both sides for us to do that.
But uh my friend, Ivan Sydney was one of these individuals, that was
tenacious and he just had the right attitude. Uh he had a lot of courage
to do what he did. And I was just extremely lucky to become the chairman
of the neighborhood nation at the same time, he was the chairman of the
Hopi Nation. And uh and as a result of our two positions, we then began
the long, long road to the healing process and to this day, something like
uh 30 years passed and we still have uh you know, a lot of work to do to
have a complete uh cooperation among all of the people that live on the
Hopi as well as on the on the neighborhood side. But what really makes me
happy is to see the progress that's taken place to see how the two tribes
are beginning to work together with the new generations of Navajo and Hopi
people coming in to enter into these different agreements that they now
have where they recognize each other as as a sovereign nation and that
there are some problems that exist between the two, but they agree to
disagree when there is a disagreement, but doing it in a friendly way,
doing it with integrity, doing it with a lot of respect. Uh that's
different than uh the way the Navajo nation and the Hopi Nation, We're uh
going after each other way back in the early 19 uh seventies and even
further back into 1960. And so we kind of changed the whole complexion of
the Navajo Hopi land dispute. And here I am, 30 years later, I'm just glad
that we did what we did and because it just had to be done, uh, there was
just too many uh, resources being spent from both sides to fight one
another that it was bitter to come together and where we have to disagree
with respect and dignity and, but knowing that in the long run, the goal
is to have the two tribes come together and become friends uh, like they
have been in the past and, and uh and and and begin making, you know, some
progress that they really, really need to to make. In other words, I will
not give you two example. one of them is the uranium tallinn had to be
dealt with in tuba city area called rare medals east of tuber city. Uh,
well that uranium tailing when the wind came uh in early spring, it blew
the uranium tailing everywhere, uh, on neighborhood land as well as on
Hope Island and it landed on our animals and it landed on the grass and it
landed on people And uh, the uranium tailing and the particles that it was
blowing did not discriminate between Navajo and Hopi. It landed uh where
it may and uh, and as a result, the doctors at indian Health Service were
having to take care of many, many patients that were getting cancer uh, to
to their bodies and no one really knows how much of that came from the
uranium tail and dusk that was blown all over the place. So I've been
sitting and I had to agree from the Navajo from the Hopi side to cooperate
and bring the federal government out there so that they can begin the
process of remediating
uh the uh uranium tailing. And as a result within something like three or
four years, they were able to pay for the cost of remediation and covering
the uranium tailings so that it's not dangerous. And they had to make it
so that it's safe for 1000 years. And uh and that could only be done if
you have a commitment from from both both tribes because the land where
the tailing was was right in the midst of where Navajo Hopi line was. And
so we need a permission from the Hopi and the hope he needed permission
from the neighborhood too to make that into a an agreed upon uh resolution
to the federal government. And that was the only way that the federal
government could fund the project if the both tribes can agree. So I'm
very proud to say that I've been Chairman Sidney uh push that from his end.
And I pushed that from my end. And as a result, we had the agreement to
correct that situation. That's only one good example of what cooperation
can bring the kind of progress that we were looking for to both tribe. The
second example is the uh, the roads all weather roads and in diary need
out there. Uh many of our tribal members, they have to drive uh pickup
trucks through sand and gravel and through mud. And because they don't we
don't have, we don't enjoy all kinds of miles and miles of all weather
road. So we created what we call a turquoise trail uh that that would go
from and began from the Hopi Nation as land and then go into a Navajo. And
that would be a federally funded program. And uh they're in some areas on
the Navajo and Hopi where those kinds of roads were really, really needed
, particularly in the winter time and when it snows and rain, we need all
the weather road uh, in between those two, between the various communities
out there. And so it was only through uh intertribal agreement between the
two tribes. We were able to push that. And the late Senator Barry
Goldwater really really push that uh uh through Congress to get it
appropriated. So that's only a second example of the kind of progress. Uh
, that one could have through cooperation. Unfortunately, when we left
office, our other people, the leaders after us really did not pick up the
slack. And so it never really really got finished to our satisfaction. But
those are only two good examples of what could happen. And I think the
school is another good example, Hopi high school, uh, you know, they need
a Navajo support to build those facilities and uh I've been sitting in my
work together to uh to do that because uh we have Children from the
neighborhood side as well as Children from the Hopi side that need that
need education. They uh they were shutting down the border in schools here
in phoenix and in California and Oklahoma and Nevada. So we needed a local
school where Navajo and Hopi kids can go and as a result, uh the creation
of uh Hopi high school by the federal government and that was only
mhm possible through cooperation between the two tribes. And so besides
these three examples, you could go into any other subject. You need those
kinds of uh cooperation for the tribes to make any kind of meaningful
progress that will benefit the young generation of the Navajo and Hopi
people and the land dispute is a very complicated issue and uh and it's
been going on for over 100 years, so it was not easy to deal with. Uh but
I was very fortunate to have leadership from the Hopi Nation that was able
to buy into some of the things that we were both promoting. So I can't I
can't say that I'm completely responsible for that. Uh it's something that
uh the Hopi nation and its leaders also had to push as well as other
people that I was working within the and it's an issue that
it's an issue that you know, many, many of the people dealt with which
always didn't didn't come out right. Uh they met well, but it just didn't
come out to the satisfaction of the of the local people. And so I was just
uh very very fortunate uh in having so many understanding people from both
sides to deal with that issue. You know, I've heard this argued in two
different ways. One is that because
you had the people out there, many of the people out there were among the
more traditional and more separate in some ways people that relocation
became particularly difficult for them because you could never obviously
provide a exactly identical kind of environment. And if you moved into
pina and then some of the people in pinion had mixed emotions about it and
if you had a new land and all the rest. So but I've heard it argued also
that because decreasing percentage of Nava whose lived the sort of
traditional subsistence, you know, raising animals and so forth and so on.
Because that percentage was declining in some ways. The disputes over
grazing and so forth and so on were reduced because a smaller percentage
of people were involved, you know, culturally economically and socially
sort of in the old way. But I've also heard it argued on the other hand
that because there was this decline that it made the people who wanted to
continue with it and many of them were elderly, it made it all the more
difficult for them to get to continue with certain things that they
thought was important. So they were particularly unhappy about because
they already have been put in a marginal situation. You see what I mean? I
mean, that's sort of already, you hear people argue it kind of in both
directions. Yeah, Well, I think there were some uh, traditional people and
the lifestyle that they led for many, many years. There was, and there was
a decline in that group of people declined in in population and uh, which
played into some of what was happening. And I would agree that, yes, that
probably did happen. But it also reduce the number of neighborhood
traditional people that would continue their lifestyles and they didn't
really have any choice to accept to seek some other alternative and which
was to move in with their Children. In some cases, those Children were
removed already from the Navajo and Hopi land. And so it's something that
uh, made the relocation program very complicated and it was such an
emotional issue For many, many families and four, the federal government,
a federal government thought that all we had to do was make some houses
available for Navajo people who may want to move after uh, Navajo
reservation into these uh, urban areas and uh, and then move into a nearby
cities and towns and uh, and that's all we had to do to resolve the issue.
But it didn't, it didn't work out that way because uh, the Navajo people
live a certain lifestyle all their life and uh, which was uh, you know,
the dependency on land and uh, animals and grazing and all of that. And
when you uproot people from those kinds of situation all of a sudden in
one year, for example, and put them into uh, an urban setting where they
have to pay taxes, for example, and on their their their homes and uh,
when they have to do all these other things that they weren't accustomed
to, uh, then it becomes a difficult issue and it's very, very, extremely
difficult for those particular family to live that kind of a lifestyle and
began changing all of a second within a matter of 66 months to a year to
completely change uh, you know, their attitude, uh, their lifestyle to the
lifestyle of the urban people. It just, it was, it was almost unacceptable
to uh, to many of the neighborhood people who move. And uh, and that's why
it became such an emotional issue. And so the really, the relocation
program uh, never really succeeded in anywhere that the federal government
did. And even going all the way back to the late 1940s and early 1950, uh
, the federal program, uh had these massive relocation program. And the
whole idea was to get the Indian people off the reservation, put them into
the urban areas and let them become gainfully employed and let them buy
homes and they'll have their Children here and they'll become urbanized
and they'll be just like any of us, uh you know, taxpaying citizen. And
that was the plan. The border town schools had dormitories, didn't they?
Also the people were pushed in that direction, dormitories in school were
then built in in those towns. And but that never really, that never really
really worked out uh mainly because the indian people want to remain what
they were meant to be, the indian people wanted to be for for Navajo, they
wanted to be a Navajo and they wanted to live like the Navajo people
always live out there out in open space and having horses, having cattle,
having sheep and and everything and the freedom to uh to uh to exist out
there as they please. And uh and and that was that was a custom. And uh so
I imagine from the Hopi side, they also had a lifestyle, but some of them
also had to be relocated, you know, from where they were living before the
, before the partitioning of the land. So they had to move back into uh
their own side of the reservation that divided land. It's a much smaller
number of people, yep, it's a much much smaller number, but the effects
were the same. Uh the emotion and everything were the same. So it never
really, it never really worked out the relocation program for the indian
people. Whether it's a Navajo Hopi issue or relocating them for jobs and
for schools away from the reservation, it just was not a good program.
Bennet freeze didn't help things either. Well, the Bennett freeze was a
special issue and uh, and still today, 30, 40 years later, you know, we're
still having to deal with that and that even made the Navajo Hopi land
dispute uh, even more complicated on top of uh, on top of what, what it
was before.
Okay. Um, I remember the, the other uh, question was, I was relating to
the uh, and you may not want to tackle this right away, but the native
american church and how it is, it seems to me as an outsider, it has a
somewhat different role and place within, within Navajo nation that it
once had. It was, it was such an enormously um emotional issue for so many
years. Raymond knock, I ran for chairman in part on the pledge to begin to
change all of that. But there were a lot of people who did not like this
new church coming in, but over time there have been more people who have
found it not necessarily as a replacement, but it is additional
help in terms of brotherhood in terms of dealing with some other domestic
issues and today, the the percentage of or the number of Navajos who are
involved in it in one way or another is, it's different than it once was.
Doesn't seem, it seems like more people have sort of accommodated or made
their peace with it or whatever, but it certainly seems to play, you know
, a significant role in the lives of many Navajo people.
Well, the native american church movement, I guess happened way back
sometimes in the
Late 1930s, 1940s. and uh the native American people had their, their own
way of uh practicing their religious beliefs and what they believe in. And
uh, I don't know all of the detail and I don't pretend to be a historian
on that subject. But it's something that the neighborhood people felt
going into uh the Mid 1950s when this movement came to the, to the
neighborhood nation and many of the Navajo people who by the way went to
school, that was one of the main conduit, yep, one that went to school in
Oklahoma. They went to school in, in other places throughout America and
they became uh friends in contact with other indian tribes that had that
religion and uh and they inter married with some of those other indian
tribal members and that whole idea of native american church movement then
began moving onto to the neighborhood nation. I remember the neighborhood
nation government, I fought them and they even pass a resolution, tribal
council resolution saying that, you know, they don't really belong on, on
the neighborhood nation. So in in many respects, it was a discriminatory
uh using religion uh for the neighborhood nation to do what they did. But
neighborhood nation being a sovereign nation, the courts uh left it alone.
And the native american church people were raising the issue of freedom
of the religion uh spelled out in the United States constitution. And so
that ah battle began way back then and there's one individual that that
that really lived through this hole, right fight between the tribal
government and the native american church is David Clarke. Uh and David
Clarke is considered one of the top uh leadership in the native american
church. Uh huh And and live on the number of lives on the Navajo into this
day. He still makes his home in tiesto Arizona highly respected individual
, very bright individual and that really loves the the Navajo people. And
I have a tremendous amount of respect for David for what he believes in
what he did as an individual to enhance and to make the church a lot
stronger on the Navajo. And some people may disagree with native american
church, but it's a religion. It's a belief, it's a belief and they have
every right to uh to promote what they were promoting. But one of the
things that caught my eyes as a young boy was what they were teaching.
They were teaching that for example, drinking is wrong. They were teaching
uh that uh you can't do all of these violent things uh against one another
that if you have Children, you have to take care of your Children. And
that education was very important. They talked the local people all of
these. Uh for me, one wonderful thing is because I heard them say that and
uh and because of that I guess early on I decided that you know, if they
are promoting all of those things then why why are we fighting? And uh and
it was no different than my also listening two for example, uh a church
such as the Protestants or the Catholics uh doing the same thing out there
and uh and they were teaching some some good things and uh and so native
american church was, was a big movement that was pushed by individuals
like David Clarke and there was another person by the name of Hola. So and
he was from around Sawmill area that lived through a lot uh during that
period of time. And he worked very closely with David Clarke. David Clarke
was just a young man. And David Clarke was this individual that got jail
uh by uh and arrested by a tribal for police and got jail. And but he, he
never gave in, he just kept on going, kept on going. And and that's why
he's such a uh devoted person to the churches because of what he went
through. And uh to this day, he still considered one of the well known
american indian religious uh, leaders throughout America. And he certainly
has my respect for some of the things that he did, he did accomplish a lot.
And some say that probably
around half of the neighborhood nation uh, is a member of the native
american church. And maybe, or or some would say no, it's really a third.
You have one third of the Navajo people that belong to a native american
church, one third that still believes in the Navajo tradition. Another
third that relieved but believes in Christianity. And so they're, they're
out there and uh, and there are groups to be uh, to be reckoned with and
you just have to look at those different groups and see what they promote
, see what the practitioners do and uh, what kind of ceremonies they
perform and then what the group uh, is doing as a whole, uh, in order for
uh, someone to, to really get a good handle on. And what is it that these
churches are all about. But I also know that in any of these three groups
, there's always a small minority that would abuse, they would abuse the
system that would abuse uh, whatever the group is trying to do and
whatever paraphernalia is that they use to keep the church going there.
There are the abusers. Uh, maybe it's no different than in America. You
know, we have different kinds of food, but sometimes we abuse those food,
we, we abuse alcohol, we abuse other substance and but it was not meant to
be that way. So even in these religious groups, you also have, you know,
that minority group that's represented and no one likes to see it. I don't
like to see it. Sometimes people use those in the wrong way.
Um when I put together that collection of documents for Navajo people DNA
speeches, letters and petitions, there's, I was very impressed going
through the, The transcript of the council meetings in the 50s about David
Clarke and people like that. They really give eloquent testimony. And it's
also interesting to see letters from young members of the church who have
been serving in the armed forces during World War II. And they say, you
know, here I am fighting for my country and at the same time I'm not being
allowed to vote, you know, in off reservation elections and I'm not. Uh
and I'm not and I'm not able were not able to hold a native american
church meeting without being it being disrupted. And so in a sense, they
were calling on America to live up to its ideals and to practice what it
preached. And there really seems to be a strong sense that gradually
becomes more and more politically effective, that, you know, this doesn't
have to supplant or replace other forms of ceremonial, traditional
leadership. It's just an additional one that's being brought in and over
time being made, you know, into something that becomes traditional, I
think. Yeah, well, one of the other leaders, one of the other leaders that
kind of, when, when a tribal government was fighting with native american
church members, a leader came into being and that was Raymond archive. He
was the person that kind of calm everything down and by telling the people
and and saying, look, we live in America and in America and through
constitution, we have freedom of the religion and why are we criticizing
this? One particular group, so much, you know, that we're beginning to
fight with each other and there's so much hatred uh that uh is beginning
to surface here and there throughout, never would land. So he, he come, he
calmed them down and I always credit him for doing that. And he says in
his most of his political speeches that he gives, you know, that I'm not
going to as a chairman, I'm going to tell you what to believe it. You
believe in whatever it is that you believe in, that's your right and the
government is no longer going to be fighting. You, you believe in what you
believe in. And he got, he didn't do it for this purpose, but he got
tremendous support from some of the areas in the Navajo nation that were
where the church had a lot of members and they, it made a difference in
him, gaining the, the chairmanship. It sure did. And you just have to give
credit to people like, you know, the late uh Chairman Raymond archive for
for doing what he did. And it was through his effort dealing with the
native american church issue that he introduced into the council for them
to approve Neverhood bill of rights that essentially says that. And so it
was through people like him and David Clarke and others that really work
on that issue. So hard to to make that a
mhm. You know, a document that we now have as part of our neighborhood
nation preamble in our tribal code. When Mr Nakai passed away some time
ago, some time ago, somebody asked me about his status, his role and I
said as an outsider, I don't have much to say. But it always seemed to me
like he had been, he was the first of the modern era. Um, chairman of his
use of the radio, his ability to speak eloquently in both languages and
his determination for the Navajo is really to be in charge of their own
government and to reduce the kind of power that people like norman motel.
The attorney had held that he was, I thought historians and others had
really not given that sufficient credit that he was more significant
figure than many, you know, younger people uh, realized. And
it seems to me it was, it was difficult because he became chairman when he
was relatively young man and he served for those two terms. And then, and
then Mcdonald came in after that and you came in after that And he lived a
long time, but it was difficult for him to find a proper roll or medium or
whatever to put that those abilities to work in a constructive and
appropriate fashion after you became the german maybe that's something
that many chairman of in many tribes struggle with when you've been, you
know, in this position of authority and power and influence and then what
, what do you do next?
Yeah, I would agree that you know Raymond our chi was one of those
individuals that was very much dedicated to helping the native american
church, helping the church itself grow and where it would be respected by
the tribal government. And he kept the tribal government out of their
affairs. And uh and then in educating the neighborhood public about what
freedom of religion is all about and what it means. And so he had a, he
had a giant roll and uh he was one of these individuals that used the
radio very, very effectively. He was an excellent, excellent speaker of
the neighborhood language he created never heard words to explain what he
was talking about. And so he was very in so many respects artistic in that
fashion where he came out with words that nobody ever used, never thought
of using and but never people caught on and uh and for example, uh huh
people back then didn't know how to say or how to illustrate sovereignty.
Uh what is the meaning of indian sovereignty? And he came out with this
word uh using the analogy of the rainbow uh
rainbow. And uh and he says sovereignty is like a rainbow and we were
created within that that rainbow and the rainbow is is something that the
indian people uh believe it comes from the great spirit and it was not
something that was given to us by the comment of the white man or any
group of people. It was always here and we were born into it. And uh and
that's the way he explained rainbow and it was very powerful and that was
the creation on the part of Raymond al Qaeda too explain sovereignty to
the Navajo people. And it's a good example. Yeah, it's the same thing that
that and when he got dead when using the neighborhood landed, which over
the radio about tuberculosis. Because tuberculosis you did not see and uh
and you did not really feel the effects of the of the disease at the time
that uh it's affecting your your body, you didn't see it. And so anyway,
Nikola was the one that comes up with those never whole words uh that says
JST meaning it's a disease that could eat into your heart. And uh you're
going to have so that your your heart is diminished in size and they won't
function as well. And so she came up with those kinds of words to make
neville people understand Raymond knock. I was the same way. Mhm. Remember
she reading about how she went around with scott Preston and convinced him
as if somebody was traditional ceremonial ist and ritual beliefs and and
encouraged him to speak to people saying that they weren't being opposed
to the religion, but the tuberculosis had to be fought in a different way
and we had to take advantage of the, you know, some of these other
approaches to it. But you know, I think about her, I remember talking at
some length with Carl Todeschini a number of years ago now about about her
role and as as he called her the pet milk lady because pet milk sponsored
her program on the gallop radio station. But but what, you know what
tremendous strength people like that had, you know, they were so
determined two speak, you know, two key issues and make sure the
government was doing the right thing. And I
I can imagine mrs veronica in front of the council at all male
congregation and She was she was really something and to have that kind of
determination to serve for 30 years or whatever it was, you know, in that
capacity,
really, really a determined person, a person who realized that it would
take a long time and hard work to make things better. But there were
things that could become better through that kind of dedication.
Well, I always say that anna when Nika live ahead of her time, she lives
ahead of the women's movement in this country and before people start
advocating for women's rights and the role of the women in families and
the role of the women and government and all of that. Any Monica was way
30, 40, 50 years ahead. And uh, you know, by the fact that she was the
lone women on the Navajo council for many years, uh is just one of those
that we saw during during her lifetime. What Anna when Erica was all about
and what she met through the true, the neighborhood people, I always say
this peter where, where the neighborhood people, you have to look at this
history
when we were in captivity and we were marched all the way from Canyon
douche to afford device to fort Wingate and then all the way into
Albuquerque to santa fe and then coming back down to uh fort Sumner. Uh uh
southeast of Albuquerque, New Mexico.
Mhm. They were, they were, There was not one single neighborhood leader
that took control. There was always a group and over at the 4th summoner
there was maybe 10, 12, 15 neighborhood leaders that were just outstanding
as a group as a group and they did their thing together. They plan and
they help all the other members to survive and they always managed to to
do things as a group and that right leading up to the signing of the
treaty, the uh, that the signing of the Uh, Navajo and the federal
government, the treaty of 1868, prior to that leading up to the, to those
days that were signed when the people were signing that treaty, right? You
know, they, the Navajo people, those leadership uh, got together Chief
Manuelito and Ganado Montceau and those people like that. Uh they they did
not, they did not object to going back to the Navajo land that was
suggested to them that went uh and the alone, the the state line, Arizona
state line go all the way up the ship rock and then coming back down on
both sides of that uh, state line. It was a small strip of land, maybe no
more than two million acres of land, Maybe 1.7 million or something like
that. It was just a small, a small piece of land uh, that the federal
government that was willing to make that into a neighborhood nation. They
asked the people to go back to that. There were no arguments among the the
10 or 12 leaders that signed the treaty represented the never people. They
didn't argue among themselves and say that that land is too small.
What probably happened is that they, they were so uh, intent on going back
to the original neighborhood land, which was different than what the
federal government was thinking. And yeah, the federal government can draw
those lines and they can say they want us to go back to this little piece
of land here. But you know, we're so homesick that we want to get the hell
out of there. Well, they fought against the, yeah, it was sure it was
Sherman who wanted initially to send them to indian territory and
Barbara's Ito says, uh, yeah. And uh, and so they went back to that land
and when they got back to uh, for defiance area and they were given each a
goat and a sheep, you know, that was their livelihood. That was, that was
their food and uh, and some uh duration some commodity food that was given
to them. That was all they needed. And then they used that and they
planted some corn and they planted squash, tomatoes, apples, potatoes and
all of that. You know, they were back in business and those leaders
probably then had another meeting and say, hey, we don't want to raise the
issue back then. But this land is, is just a small, too small for us. Why
don't we start expanding? And uh, any kind of arguments that they can
think of. Good, reasonable arguments that they can think of. Uh, they,
they use that to expand the reservation. And the bottom line for that
group of Navajo leaders was the size of the reservation, they wanted to
expand. They wanted to grow, they said that this land wouldn't hold us 10
years, 20 years down. And so our job number one priority is to expand the
land. So they kept on growing up on growing until, you know, uh They came
to something like maybe 14, 15 million acres. And uh but it didn't stop
there. And uh leadership later on going into uh the era of paul jones and
scott Preston and uh you know, Jacob morrigan, Howard, Gorman Raymond,
Okay, all of those people, they kept at it, they kept on adding to the
reservation. I was just looking at the map the other day and then looking
at the numbers, we now have nearly 17 million acres of land, 17 million
acres. That's a huge, huge reservation. So collectively, collectively the
Navajo good leadership, did that not only in the period of one or two
years, it was an ongoing thing for uh 100 years. And uh and the last time
I saw the Navajo tribal budget, They have something like 53 million that I
helped create. When I left called land acquisition fund. We we established
a land acquisition fund a year before I left the neighborhood nation. And
uh and and and said to the Navajo nation to the Navajo people that we want
this trust fund to grow and someday we're going to have 2030, 40 million
in there. And when that happens in the land that's put up for sale
adjacent to the neighborhood nation and away from the neighborhood nation
in the land put up for sale
that you should be in the position to buy it. And this trust land
acquisition fund, Well we'll give you that resources to use to buy those
lands the last time, About a year and a half ago when I looked at the
tribal budget, it had around 50 million. And I saw the the collection uh
of the neighborhood leaders. They all had that in mind. Every one of them
that came into office. They said land acquisition is important. But they
really didn't have that the the fund necessary uh to buy those lands. And
now because of what Uh we did during my administration, they're not able
to buy those lands and it's grown and it may even as we talk and may even
be over 17 million, you should take that and I would say within the next
20 years it's going to keep on growing. And so it's it was a situation
where the leadership of the Navajo people through all these years. That
was their priorities. That that was what they did. No, there is no other
group, there is no other group in America among the indian people. Yes,
they had some great american indian leaders out there. You know, you know
, you know, all of them and you have sitting bull out there, you have
chief joseph, you have, you know geronimo and you have all these people,
they they were good, they were good at the time, but they really didn't do
what the level people did. And there were people uh collectively their
leadership through a long period of time. Their priority was to add land
and to this day they're still doing for me, for me the measurement of what
is considered a good american indian leader for their people, land land
base should be one of them. Absolutely. Because that is that is so
important. There's so many people who want to make the story of Navajo
history or other indigenous peoples primarily a story of victimization and
loss. And I always go to them, D'Arcy McNickle who said there's a
difference between, yes, we have lost many things he wrote, but we were
never defeated. And and also you look too, that's one of the reasons why I
enjoyed putting that documents book together because it really speaks to
not only leadership that adds the land base, but also leadership that
protects the land base and doesn't put the people in a position where you
know, it got divided up and allotted and so forth. You have to dodge
writing to the Secretary of the Interior franklin Lane in 1916. And he
said, well, you asked me what would happen if we, you know, did allotment
on the main the large Navajo reservation and I'm writing to tell you don't
do it, don't do it, it will serve us, it will not serve us well, we need
to because that's the heart of our country. And that's what we need to
defend. And it's the foundation essentially, he says that we're building
from. So the fact that while there was some allotment of, you know, in the
checkerboard area and things like that, the main section of the
reservation, the heart of the reservation, the large portions added by
executive order that Chee dodge and people who followed saw as their, you
know, one of the most important responsibilities to make sure that that
remained land held in trust and wasn't divided up into all these
individually held parcels which just as you well know, has played havoc
with economic and social cultural issues on so many other reservations. So
I think, you know, when you think about history as being something, not
just that happens to you, but that you make, you know, that Navajo
leadership over time understood that and acted upon it and that's in, you
know, that's that's a if there's one thing we need to do more of, I would
argue not only a novel history, but in american indian history generally
is we need to recognize the kind of fight that novel whose and others made
two, you know, they to forge a future that would be viable. And, you know
, it's as you were saying, it's a very important dimension of sort of
legacy of that leadership.
Well, I think it's because of those kinds of attitudes and among the
leadership of the Navajo people that way back in Uh mid 1930s, when there
was also a movement to divide up the land and make land so that allotted
to individuals and individual families. Never, people find out what what
that did to their land holdings. And uh and when the Navajo people started
selling that, those are a lot of land to the non indians, they put they
put a stop to it. And because because historically
it was getting into whatever it is that they were trying to do, rather
than expanding the land, the land base of the Navajo people by having this
allotment on the Navajo hood. And the Navajo people were beginning to sell
some of their land. They say, hey, that that's not what we're all about,
that's that's not something that you should be doing instead. Instead we
should be adding more land. And they, they put a stop to it. So they acted
, they acted when they had to act. Yeah, those decisions were hard by the
tribal government, but but they did for me, they did what was necessary
which was to act opposing any kind of diminishing the landholding of the,
of the Navajo people. And so that's that's one good example of uh the
quality leadership that never who exhibited through all these years. The
other one. The other one that I think is is also very, very important, is
one uh that you and I are in, which is uh in education. Uh huh way back in
the late
In the late 1870
1880 when Chief Manuelito became such a powerful figure on the Navajo
nation. Uh the Navajo people didn't want to send their Children to school.
Uh They refuse practically refused to send their Children to school. And
I could hear many of the older people saying I don't want to send my
Children to school because look what the white people did to us. Mhm And
and I don't want to I don't want to subject my my Children to that kind of
education where they would become somebody like them and they're the
Navajo people were just very upset about what what was happening to them
and they were about to set their Children to school. And Chief Manuelito
then came into being and he says to the Navajo people hey look look
mhm there are so many non never who's out there, non indians and Chief
Manuelito says that I took a trip to Washington D. C. And along the way I
saw so many white people and they have farms, they have food, they have
big tractors, they have bulldozers and they're plowing their land and
they're raising so much food, they have cars, they have grocery stores and
and they even have a vehicle that flies in the air and uh and so he says
that these guys aren't going to leave, they're going to they're going to
keep on fighting us And he says that, I can't, I can't believe the number
of non indian people that's out there. And he was explaining this at a
sweat lodge along with other neighborhood leaders that were taking a sweat
bath. And he picked up a sand, He picked up a sand in two hands and it was
breezy that day. And he let the sand go and it flew the sand blue. And he
says, if you were to count all the sand, The little pieces of sand in here
, that's how many there are. They're plus, uh, maybe 20, times over.
That's how many non in the non Navajo people are out there. So put your
bowl in arrows down. Uh, don't fight, there's just too many. And he says,
the best thing we could do is to send our Children to school. And
when we do that, I will fight them with education. We will turn our own
Children into being lawyers, being doctors, being engineers, being nurses
, all that, those kinds of, uh, education and school and will have our,
our students become that. And then we'll fight them with that. We're not
going to use gun. We're not going to use bullets. We're not going to use
bowling error. We're going to use education. That's how we'll fight them.
That's the day when he said, my Children, education is the latter go tell
her people to take it, he says, And that's what he meant. And so education
was very unpopular among the Navajo people up to that point. And he was
one of the leaders that came forth and said I disagree with all of you, we
need to send our Children to school. And he said it at the time when it
was very unpopular. To say that very unpopular for anybody on the
neighborhood nation to say that. And here we are over 100 years later.
Look at the number of, look at the number of neighborhood Children uh that
are in colleges and universities across America. Uh I just talked with
Rose Graham last week who was here and she was saying that There are
10,000 over 10,000 neighborhood Children in school colleges and the
university throughout the president. And she says the Navajo nation
doesn't fund all of them. We only fund a very very small proportion of
that. And she says that most of these kids have earned their own
scholarship. Uh They use other resources to go to school. They're
beginning to be very resourceful and uh and they don't heavily rely on the
Navajo nation government all that much in there more ships as so when you
see when you see that many neighborhood Children in school, you know,
that's that's very encouragement encouragement for me and just look at a.
S. U. You were talking about some time of the accomplishments. Well look
what happened last year in the year 208 May of 208.
We graduated a record number Of American Indian students here. We
graduated over 300 Native American students to be exact. I believe it was
305.
And either that 305 graduating class uh something like 75 percent of them
are Navajo people. And when you look at the 305 graduates, 21 of them were
doctorate. That's very impressive. 21 doctorate. That's how many degrees
we gave up. And then 56
was
people with Masters degree. So when you look at those numbers 300 some odd
students 21 Dr 56
With uh master's degree. They're all out there and it looks like this year
209 it's gonna be a repeat is going to be a repeat. And that for me that's
effect of the leadership of Chief Manuelito. Uh That's more than what
money can buy. Uh And I guess that's why for for me I agree I agree that
we have all this land. We have all this resource. Yes we have lots of
problems on the Navajo nation. People are talking about tribal government
reform. People are talking about the horror stories of education on the
neighborhood. There's a lot of problems. But uh huh. If we have all that
space with its natural resources and then if we can educate more and more
neighborhood. What more can you ask for? What more can you ask for? That's
all we need is, uh, there was educated, the neighborhood students to go
back someday, someday they're going to all get together out here and
they're going to say, hey, let's make a commitment to return and let's
develop the neighborhood nation this way. And they're gonna all go back
when that day that happens, we're going to see the real real progress of
the neighborhood nation that's meaningful. That comes from within rather
than having that movement come from the outside. Yeah, that's genuine
progress that neighborhood people could have. And uh, and I guess you and
I spent so much time and educating the indian the youth here, the Arizona
State University because we see that's happening. And every year we're
getting closer and closer to that. For me,
for me, that's exciting. That's exciting. And I guess that's what, that's
why I'm continuing to work here, as long as I have energy remain here and
, and do those kinds of things. And I think we're beginning to see the
light of a real progress for the Never Neverland nation. Absolutely.
That's, I'm really pleased to hear you articulate this in this way and you
think about it. It's such a opposite from how Navajos were perceived and
other native groups were perceived 100 years ago when they were talking
about the Vanishing India and the end of the trail and so forth and so on.
And you know, I've argued that not only are there more Navajos today than
there were 100 years ago when they were taking those photographs, But
probably the more Navajos today than there were Indians 100 years ago. So
it's a kind of scale and a kind of size and a kind of uh, appropriate
ambition and determination that fuels the future. And I like that public
service announcement a few years ago that Fort McDowell put out and they
said our future is burning bright. And I think that's, that's right. And,
and you see that in many different parts of indian country, but I think no
, where is the fire brighter than it is within the Navajo nation.
Good. Well, you know, Pete, my son picks me up. We share, we share a ride.
So that's good. I have to get back, get back over to the office before,
before four because he just works several blocks from here and then he
gets off at four and then he comes over and picks me up. Good. We'll think
about when you'd like to do this extra little bit. Yeah, it doesn't, you
know, it doesn't have to be long. But I just think, and I don't want it to
b I don't want to have it. Anything that you don't want to have in there.
But I just know that that's the one dimension that there will be an
expectation that you'll speak to that in some way and you don't have to do
so negatively or, or you know, in a way that's inappropriate. But I think
that would be good. So, um, I think you can check the genie, I guess. Look
at your schedule and let me know when you'd like to do that.
I agree. We can't, it's something that we can't skip. No, I don't think
you've covered lots of ground today. I thought it was very good, very
pleased with our conversation today and we'll have one more. Uh, yeah, I
think that that really will do it. I'm going to this Western History
Association meeting. Remember the one we had in scott's a few years ago
and this will be in Salt Lake this time and I will leave a week from,
let's see a week from tomorrow. So if there's any chance we could do it
prior to, prior to that, that would be nice. If we can't, then we'll just
do it when I get back. Yeah. So you take a look at your calendar and you
can block out an hour or so somewhere I'd be happy to. So Next week, like
the 20th, you'll be up there. No, I won't leave until the 20, I want to
say the 22nd, 22nd of Yeah, I think, I think monday monday is the 20th,
isn't it? And to Wednesday is the 22nd. It has to be after that. Okay,
that's fine because the 20th is Navajo nation council meeting going to be
up there for sure. Then the National Congress american industry down here.
So Okay, well there we are. Well then maybe you too can look at the
calendar for the week that starts monday the 27th. Maybe we can do it that
week. Sometimes you see, you know, it doesn't Okay, we're almost there and
when we meet next time, what I'll do is I'll bring in, you know, were, you
know, sort of putting some of these together if we have the uh huh we
really need the typescript from today's session, but I think it's covering
lots of ground and I think it's, I think it's going to be a terrific book.
Okay. And I, and I have your approval to talk to you and impress uh, at
that conference. Not to make any decision, but just to let them know where
we are on this if that's okay with you. Okay. Okay, Good, good. Okay,
what's happening? Okay, thank you. Take care of you. Take care of us. I
will.
Got to call my son. Okay. Yeah, here we are. I'm attempting to long. Okay
, Thank you. Good. Okay, thank you.
I just want to make sure he gets turned off properly and the rest hoping
great. It looks like you got it all. They're over now.