I think we're on. Yeah, it's on. Okay.
Okay. Uh, I thought it might be important just to talk a little about my
own personal experience when I was just a young boy growing up in our
community and then little things that happened to me that makes all the
difference in the world in my life today. Uh, as far back as I could
remember, we always live north of King's Canyon, uh, into a valley, the
first valley that goes up north and to the east, uh, side of the road
there by Kings Canyon. And uh, I don't really remember how old I was, but
that's when I really start noticing things. And it was a family gathering
place where my grandma and my grandpa lived and we always live right close
to where they were living. Of course they had some sheep, they had some
horses And maybe two or 3 cars that they own. And I could remember about
going out with the older boys and tending to that and, and what that did
to mean was really to build into my head when even when I was just a young
man, the sense of responsibility that we all have responsibility and that
we all had to uh help in certain ways to keep the family going to keep the
tradition going within the family and be able to practice and really live
some of those responsibilities that was expected of us by the elderly. And
so it was something that I always remember and sometimes today I would
dream about, you know, living back then and the way it was, was where we
were living, we planted corn, we planted all of the basic food that we
would need, squash, beans, potatoes, uh, you know those kinds of basic
stables, watermelon, pumpkins. And we had to make sure that uh, they are
good crops uh, to be picked in the fall and water supply. I would say it
was maybe a couple of miles up the canyon and into the mesa there and we
had to really almost dick up our own water. And uh, we use an old shovel,
uh any kind of steel that we can find and we would dig into the earth
where it was,
it looks like the water was seeping out and then you make a little a
pothole into the clay and then that's where the water accumulated every
day each night. And so during the day, in the morning you will come with a
bucket and you take that water home and then during the night it would
accumulate and some more water will come out the next morning you take
another Uh five gallon bucket to uh get that water. And of course the
sheep, they had a windmill closer to the highway, Maybe about four or 5
miles. That's where we took the sheep drinking water was one of those
commodities that was hard to come by. And uh, so that it was something
that, that we did. And I always think about today, uh, we drank all of
that water just coming out of the earth and how come we didn't really get
sick and I guess your body's just get used to it. And because you've been
all your life, I've been drinking that water and you build up an immune
system to any kind of virus or what have you that might have uh survived
or that might have been in the water. And so it's just amazing just to
think about those things and back then. And I would say this is in the
probably
The early 1940s
and you didn't really hear all that much about Navajo Hopi land dispute
back then because we were Really live in District six, which is the Hopi
Territory
hope you country. And there wasn't much discussion that I remember people
talking about that, but it wasn't until perhaps during the war uh
In the mid 1940s that I heard a lot about those kinds of local,
the discussions, local politics and where the Hopi Nation was really
trying to push up the Navajos who were occupying some of the spaces within
the Hopi Territory. So we had to move on several occasions from Kings
Canyon going up further to the east and the north uh site of Kings Canyon.
And every time we move, we would move maybe eight miles up or 10 miles up
where we settled and the settlement was such where you had to dismantle
your Hogan and then we had an old wagon, john Deere wagon that my
grandfather owned and we, we would use that wagon to haul all of the uh
logs. Uh you know that that we use for corral for Hogan. And it was hard
work, but you know, it was also good for our bodies and good for our our
mind and our soul because we were actually doing things. And back in those
days we didn't really have what you call toys nowadays. I live with my
grandchildren and and everything that they have. We bite for them to
parents buy it for them. And so they just end up accepting the toys as
they are, as they are made coming off the factory. And there's nothing
that goes into thinking about how those toys are made. But with, with us,
when we were at that age, when we would have sometimes to ourselves, we
would go over to the mesa where there was a lot of moisture and we would
dig into the ground and dig out the clay, the clay that the indian people
used to make pottery, we would get that and we would create our own toys.
Uh if we wanted to have horse, we had draw our own horse, we had to shape
the clay into a horse or cow or even uh little things that we would need.
And so I guess uh when at such a young age, when you do those kinds of
things, a lot of your own creativity uh, is still into you. And uh, and
you then become a creator of your own toys. And you have to, you know, do
things in such a way that uh, you make things for yourself, you make your
own toys and you have to find places in a time when you can be alone and
and play and play the things that you like to play. And so I think people
at that generation, my generation, uh, they learned how to do all of that
, which I am very grateful that that that happened. Uh, you know, we
didn't buy things from everything that we need. We didn't, we didn't buy
it at the store, we had to create it and we had to uh, do all of those
things and find them ourselves. And so there's a lot of talk about people
having to move uh huh from the former uh, let's say a Navajo Hopi land
disputed area and people talk about it and it's very, very emotional for
the Navajo people. But the way I look at it is that we we had to move
three times my family Outside and we had to move outside of District six.
And then when we did that, we didn't move far enough so that we ended up
into a disputed area where the land was jointly owned by the Hopi and
Navajo. And then when that got settled in 1974, then we had to move again
outside of that area because where we were living became Hopi Hopi country.
Uh they uh, the mediator and the federal government made it so that they
turned that land over to the Hopi Nation. So we had to move out of that
area again. So, uh, the way I look at that is that, you know, it just gave
us a lot of strength. Uh, it gave us uh uh, you know, some of those things
that uh, pull the family together. And my grandfather always said, yeah,
we are having a tough time, We're having to work hard, we don't have much
to eat and all of that. And every day we had to work to even uh, to build
our own uh dwelling place, our Hogan. And uh, and we had to rebuild the
corrals and all of that. But you know, uh, this is gonna make us a
stronger family. And for you young boys, it's gonna make you a stronger
individual where you have to do things on your own. You don't depend on
anybody, We're not dependent on anybody. We're having to do all of this
ourselves. And so I'm teaching you a lot of self being self reliant. And
sure there's going to be challenges in life and this is just a good lesson
for you to go through. And so that that that was something that I
experienced during my lifetime. Uh, grandmother and grandfather were very
strong people. traditionally. My grandmother never went to school. She
doesn't,
she didn't know a word of english. And my grandfather had some schooling
and he was a carpenter, he was vocational education educated person. And
so he knew how to do a lot of these things and he spoke perfect english.
He also spoke Hopi language and spoke the Apache language. And so he was
in every sense of the word uh
trilingual. And so he was a very resourceful person and he was the person
that kind of held the family together. And so that is something that I
experienced during my lifetime. And one of the things that uh that
happened during the process of us constantly having to move was people
being uh either drafted or volunteering to go into the armed services to
helped during the war. And a lot of my uncles and some of my relatives uh
served during the war. And that left us at home that the young boys only
with the women. And so because of the war, my uncles and my father and
other people had to leave the camp. And uh and that put all of the
responsibility on our shoulders at such a young young age. And I remember
at one time, Back in the early 1940s, we were so hungry we were so hungry
, we didn't have much to eat. And what we ate was what we found out there
and we were so hungry that we started talking about uh killing our own
horse. Uh the little pony that we had in the family, that was really
cherished by many of the youngsters with within our family. And that was
really a terrible emotional experience that I went through because we were
taking care of that little pony and we had to, we had to uh slaughter the
pony in order for us to survive. And I remember that
when we got together, when we got together, that we talked about, how do
you kill an animal? Well with, with a sheep, it's very easy, you just get
a knife and you cut their throat. And but how do you, what do you do with
a horse? And so after some discussion that lady in the, in our family
decided that my mother should be
the person responsible for uh killing the opponent. So what we did is that
she told us to put a a cloth over the, the ponies I and hang the cloth on
the ears under two years so that the, the pony can't see. And then she got
an ax and hit a pony in the forehead and the pony went down. And uh, but
that was our food for, you know, the next several days. So we had to do
those kinds of things in order for us to survive. And so I guess in my
case you have to learn, you have to learn from that and and the learning
was that anything that you do, uh in terms of raising your own who you
always have to save, You always had to save some of the vegetables that
you may raise during the summer that you harvest in the fall uh for the
winter. And you had to dig into the ground into the earth where you
refrigerated the food. And then you had uh really uh took a great
responsibility and taking care of that. And that was our, I guess in many
ways our refrigerator and so during the winter we would open that and then
uh and and that's where our food was stored. And it was one of those
situations where when you're eating something, you also have your little
other uh small siblings, brothers and sisters that were smaller than you.
And you always have to keep them in mind because you know, they want to
eat too and you don't want to be so picky, so you eat just enough to have
the food go around so that you know, you survive another day. And that was
a great lesson to all of us. And I vividly remember many of those
experience when we were put into that situation. But what really taught me
there was that you had to share with whatever it is that you have. And you
also have to work hard even to get your own food to eat for the day so
that you can survive. And uh, it was, it was a good lesson, It was a good
lesson for uh, for me and for many of us to go through that experience. I
just wanted to uh, talk about this so that uh, we would have an idea what
kind of background we had. It was not a situation in low mountain area
where you are always had a house and you had uh, transportation, you had
to pick up trucks or highways trading post electricity line, uh, to, to
take care of your basic needs. We never had those. And uh, and when we
went from, when we were moving from place to place, we had to go down into
another valley and there were no roads. So how do you get from the top of
the mesa to go down into the uh, lower section of that land. There were no
roads. And so we had to build our own roads and build it so that even the
horses cannot be driven down that the valley and in many cases we had to
work not poor one week or one another, we had to work years just to, to,
to do our own road so a wagon could go down. And so that was the kind of
environment that I was raised in and my grandfather was the one that
really promoted that he organized the community. We all came out and I had
fun together, but at the same time we were working hard, working really,
really hard with a shovel with a sledgehammer with uh, you know, all of
the basic, basic manual labor type tools, crowbar and, and all of that. We
had to use to, to build our own roads. And so it was something that was
very, very interesting background for all of us to be be raised in that
kind of context within my family. I just wanted to uh, to say that. Thank
you. Yeah. Yeah. Let me get some water and then we'll talk about the
challenges and you can ask questions.
Want to make sure I okay. I haven't moved it. I think it's still on. I
wondered if if you could just back up for a minute in terms of when you
made those moves, did you? It was within Land Land Management District six.
But were you, was low mountain remain the closest,
you know, community or were you, you know, I know there are a series of
places sort of sprinkled around that area. In other words, if today we
have all these chapter houses and chapters. So I wondered if if you, were
you closer to gelato at one point or what did you remain here? Uh Oh,
mountains. Yeah. We remain mainly between kim's Canyon and what is now a
low mountain. That was kind of like our uh, area where, where we live, We
never really went over to gelato or towards that area. When we were in the
process of moving from place to place. And low mountain was not low
mountain as we know today, and it was just a place, there were maybe only
one or two families that live down there down the valley. And so we
eventually end up settling in low martin, I would say. Not until 1953,
Yeah,
but when you went to school, you you said you were in school at Tuba City
for I went to school at Tuba City. I was one of those individuals that
started out late. I believe I was nine years old when I was taken away
from my family, but when we were living between Kings Canyon and Low
Mountain, up on top of the hill and uh we were taken to uh tuba City
boarding school.
Mhm. Mhm.
It sounds like it's for you. Yeah.
Hello?
Yeah. Mhm. That's unusual. And you'll call, but Yeah.
Well you sure. So you you started it, I just wanted to make sort of fill
in that blank a little bit. So you went to Tuba City rather than two or
more? Yeah, I went to, I went directly to Tuba City. Uh Probably mainly
because many of my cousins were going to Tuba City. And uh I remember my
aunt who had three boys going to school at Tuba City who was taking her
Children uh to uh tuba City boarding school for the first time and I
didn't go with them the first year, but next year they were, when they
were going back, they, they talked about how how it was in school and uh,
you know, there was plenty of food available. There was uh they played
games, they played, they had softball team, they had uh, you know,
basketball team and and all of that and they were, they were just talking
about their school experience in uh, in their wonderful, in enjoyable way.
And I was listening very, very carefully and I decided that, you know,
what I should do is join my cousins. And it didn't really matter with me
if I didn't have any clothes, nice clothes, nice shoes or anything like
that. And, And I just tacked alone and I went and there was in 1948. And
uh and when I got there, many of the other boys that were in school, some
of them had grown there, their their clothes, they couldn't really wear
their clothes anymore, so they just gave them to me yet. And uh, so it was
one of those uh situation where I was able to fit my body into the clothes
that they were throwing away. And uh for me in my head, uh that didn't
really matter with me, it was just, it was just closed and you, I treated
it as, you know, that's something that you had to have and particularly in
the wintertime when it gets a little colder, you need a jacket. And you
know, it was a situation where I just had to uh you know borrow in some
cases that jacket the other boys had, do you think having family members,
relatives going to school at the school when you got there too, that help
you in terms of sort of adjusting to that different environment? Ah Yeah.
Well it the adjustment was very hard for me personally and I guess it was
hard because in the first place, you know, you love your mother and you
love your relatives, your father and your grandfather and the idea of
leaving them, the idea of leaving the animals behind your horses and and
sheep that you own and leaving them with your your family and your your
grandparents, uh not getting any younger. Uh you know that kind of uh was
very emotional for me, but I also knew that it had to be done that way. We
just have to uh make that break and begin uh being self sufficient as an
individual. And one concept was that you had to go away from home to get
an education. And so that was something that there was very strong in my
own head and that's why, you know, I didn't, I didn't uh suffer as long uh
as much as the other other Children did. And as long as I had that concept
in my head that there was okay was something that I had to deal with. Uh
huh In my life, were you able to see like your mother or other persons at
all from when you first started in the fall until later on or did they
ever come over to see you? Or was that discouraged? Or my aunt, whose,
whose Children were going to school there? We saw them maybe two or three
times a year. I think maybe on one occasion my mother would come with with
her and just to see us. But the problem was there was no highway between
Kings Canyon and tuba city was all dirt road. And so it was, it took a day
for them to get to, from Kings Canyon to go to to the city. And uh, and
there weren't any service station along the way. So uh, they had to go
through the largest too just to see us at the boarding school, uh, tuba
city
and um,
can you described maybe a, a typical day at the school? I mean how it
started and what you did,
the boarding school was conducted almost like your military institute
where they separated the boys between what they call, uh, you know, the
big boys is dormitory and the little boy's dormitory. But within that
dormitory living, uh, they had what they call a platoon system, uh, where
you were each given a number and you all had to get in line the first
thing in the morning, let's say seven o'clock in the morning and you had
to stand on your number when the whistle blew and then from there the your
platoon leader would march you to the cafeteria. And uh but when you get
up and that bells or the whistle is being blown, when you hear the whistle
, you have to get out there. But prior to that you had to uh wash up, you
have to press your teeth, you had to comb your hair, you had to make up
your bed and you had to uh have a nice clean clothes on and you have to
shine your shoes. And so by the time the whistle blew, you're supposed to
all be ready and ready to go. And all you do is you jump and go to your
number and then they would
do little drills, uh there by your platoon leader and then you march over
to the cafeteria to eat the food, a lot of vegetables and later on I
learned I learned that when I went to a boarding school for example,
they're interpret city. Uh we had an opportunity to work out in the field
a place called pasture canyon and that's where the school uh planted corn
, this uh squash watermelon. Uh much of what we were eating at the
cafeteria was raised by by the school and we, as a student volunteered uh
to help the school personnel to to do that and all of that was brought
into the boarding school And then the kitchen workers prepared the food
that we brought in. And so we had a lot of corn bread, we had a lot of
beans, we had watermelon, we had corn and all of that. You know, it was it
was a lot of healthy food and so we had that for for breakfast for example.
And then we came back to the dormitory, let's say around 8 30. And uh and
then suddenly like quarter to nine, then the whistle will blow again, then
you're supposed to all go get back on your number and then they would
march you close to where the classes were and then they dismiss you and
then you all went to your to your class and for me uh for example, let's
say a typical day was where I went into my english class to learn more
about english perhaps how to communicate and what the words mean. And then
spell the spelling of those words that we were being taught. And then the
next hour might be where it was devoted to learning more in working with
your hands. Uh learning something about tools and learning something that
you can create with your own hands. Uh little toys that you might do uh
that you might cut out of the wood and you you sand it down, then you
painted that and you either do that for yourself or you do it for somebody
or for the school. And so it was a vocational light class, may be devoted
to that kind of learning for about hour, hour and a half. And then the
next one might be physical education where we during the during the year
you had baseball,
football
track and uh those kinds of activities just to exercise your your body.
But they really didn't have any showers. You did that just in your plain
clothes, the clothes that you were wearing, you didn't you didn't go to
gymnasium, there was no gymnasium. And so we did that. And then at noon we
went back to, we went back to the cafeteria and the cafeteria was set up
in such a way that you were each given a duty. Uh Some of the students had
to cook and so they were Given the permission to leave at 11:30 or quarter
after 11 for example. And they did work at the kitchen until all the
students start showing up at 12, then they served us Food and then
afterwards they would stay until about 1:30. But we all had to go through
that cycle. Uh
the cycle of working in different areas. And so the food again, it wasn't
all that good, but they were edible. There were a lot of vegetables and
for me personally, that's all I cared about was that, you know, there were
nice healthy food that came off the field that the students worked on that
I helped bring into the cafeteria and then in the afternoon we would go
back to class and maybe I'll be taking a math course. You know, learning
how to add, learning how to subtract, learning how to divide, learning how
to work with numbers and all of that, maybe do a little arithmetic, uh
work that was put together by the teacher. And then maybe another class,
we would learn more about hygiene, something about the study of our own
bodies and the kind of food that we should be eaten what food does and and
what it does to our body. And and then learning sudden about different
sections of our of our body and all of that. And so there was a lot of
health related discussions. It was almost all of that instruction in
english, all of that instruction was in english and uh, for those students
that need it some interpretation, You had to go to a specialized
bilingual person uh, to help you uh, with the teaching, but no one really
, none of the students really pride themselves and going to that person
because they don't want the other students to know that they weren't
really getting what they were being taught. It was kind of an
embarrassment. So not many students took a, I went to that individual and
you just had to blend in with the rest of the other students where we were
being taught english, did they do they, you read about and hear people say
that at one point, they discouraged one way or another, they tried to
discourage students from speaking Navajo or whatever the case might be in
the, in the dorms, they kept wanting you to speak english. Was that sort
of the way it was there or not at tuba City boarding school.
It was a situation where the staff and the teachers discourage that and we
were too small, I was too young. Two
field,
the brunt of that policy where, uh, they would get a little uh, stryker
because
I think we were just too young to really try to have the staff enforce the
concept of not speaking the Navajo because in my situation I didn't really
know that many english. Uh, so, so the challenge was just to learn more,
more english words and I didn't really feel that at tuber city where I did
feel all of that and where I did experience some of that was at phoenix
indian school because by that time we were all in, In, in school, 9th,
10th, 11th 12th grade and we were considered young adults and that, uh,
the instructors would say, you guys know what the rules are, you don't
talk Navajo and if you are her talkin neighborhood and you were punished
for that and that didn't happen at Super city boarding school because we
were too young, but it did happen at phoenix indian school. I'm assuming
there was some hope the students who also may have attended the tuba City
school,
there were some students hope they were at uh, from, from Kings Canyon
after going there for two or 3 years. I then uh stayed in Flagstaff, uh
public school for one year and then I went to phoenix indian school and uh
, at phoenix indian school, you had all tribes in Arizona, all 21 tribes
in Arizona was a phoenix indian school. Of course, the majority of them
were Navajo, uh, many Hopi students, a patchy the schemas, uh, they were
all all there and some other Oklahoma indian tribal members were also in
the role of phoenix indian secure in phoenix indian school was a different
story. Right?
And, but I was just thinking given the proximity of the Hopi community,
you know, to tuba, that maybe there was some hope your kids that also
might have gone to that school when you were Yeah, at a few, Yeah, at
Kings Canyon, I mean at tuber City boarding school. Yeah, they were, there
were hoping students there. Uh, not many, but there were some uh, and uh,
and then there were some pay you students
at
tuba City uh huh And by did, I don't remember any of the other other
tribes now, it teams. Um, there were obviously a lot of hope the students
who went went there, but there were, they're also more novels, students
who went there than people often realize that uh,
yeah, yeah. And, and my grandfather was there for two years in the 30s,
but it was Before your, he was there in 30, about 36 and 37. So um
at you talked about tuba, there was emphasis on vocational training and
you continued that at phoenix indian school in terms of carpentry. Did
they? Did they,
You know, in the 30s and 40s, during the Collier administration, they, you
know, dr William organ worked with robert young on some of those little
herder in spring, those bilingual books and things like that. Did they did
they did they move away from that after,
you know, after the collier people were gone, they move did they placed
some emphasis on, you know, trying to develop written Navajo and like a,
like a fort wingate, they had some emphasis on weaving and silver smith
thing. And people like ambrose their own horse and others were there, did
they have any time or any emphasis on
Navajo art or anything like that at all a taboo, is that just, you know,
over at, over at
phoenix indian school, they really didn't have that uh in other words, we
didn't have silver smith. And uh at phoenix indian school, I think they
were trying to get away from from that, that the concept of phoenix indian
school was uh there are different uh kind of work that's available that
will be available to you in phoenix for example phoenix, the city of
phoenix has grown so much so fast, that unique brick layers to build the
buildings, you need electricians, unique carpenters, you need all of these
uh different uh people with different skills and we're gonna train you so
that when you graduate you'll just naturally fit into uh the growing city
of phoenix. And uh sheet metal work uh was was very heavy, heavy because
uh people were running swamp coolers and so sheet metal work was something
that phoenix indian school really took pride in teaching the indian kids
and many of the students that graduated as sheet metal worker went right
into those jobs. And so that's what phoenix indian school was trying to,
trying to do. Now. Later on, I learned that what phoenix indian school was
trying to do was a little different than what the school at Fort Wingate
was teaching because you didn't have the same kind of environment that
phoenix indian school had back over at Fort Wingate and sure, so silver
smith and and these kinds of traits uh was being taught at uh at Fort
Wingate and uh and what students could do with their own hands and with
their own mind in terms of being creative and at phoenix indian school, it
was completely different. Of course, the percentage of Navajo students
have been much higher at Wingate too, wouldn't Mhm. I think then then at
phoenix sending school, maybe, maybe not, but like you're your your father
in law Kenneth subjugated. he went to Wingate and and I've had students
look into some of the histories and they're surprised that they're like an
Albuquerque indian school, there was Mhm. Some emphasis on weaving and at
Wingate, they were looking into the use of vegetable, vegetable dyes and
just different ways of doing things and it's sort of,
you know, sort of different than the initial image you had of the school.
But the curriculum you're describing for phoenix indian school sounds a
lot like what they were about to do an inter mountain to, that was all
those students who went up there, there was very strong emphasis on
vocational training and not, you know, not there was there weren't a whole
lot of people telling you, you should think about going to college. I told
my classes about how, when you decided you want to go to college, the
people of phoenix indian school were not necessarily, I didn't necessarily
think that was a great idea.
I think that when you look at all these boarding schools like phoenix, uh
Fort Wingate, Albuquerque, Inner Mountain, Sherman Institute, Sherlock,
Oklahoma, all those boarding schools, they were not really geared towards
put in the students into colleges and university, because the concept was
that we're not able capable of doing any college related work and that
were more suited for working with our hands and putting us out into the uh
workforce out in the community that was their goal, but there were a few
students from all of these uh boarding schools that went on to college.
And uh I would say that those are exceptional students, they were students
that made it on their own. There were intelligent people that had a
different background than most of the other kids. And so that it's it's a
it's for me it's just a miracle that so many of our
uh huh kids went through that program that may have been capable of doing
college work and but they were really not never given the opportunity and
it's only a very few of us that saw uh different different opportunities
in a different direction. And then we just kind of took advantage of those
opportunities.
You have to be pretty determined, you have to be pretty determined and
really function on your own to find your own scholarship to find your own
way to a university. No no one really helped you. There were no college
scholarship, for example from the Navajo nation, right? They didn't have a
scholarship program. And so when I came here and went to phoenix college
and A. S. You there were no never who scholarship programs. There weren't
very many Navajo students. Yeah, exactly. And that's why we only had at A
. S. U. When I got here seven or eight uh ending students here on campus.
Tell me a little about what it was like going to phoenix college. That as
I recall of some of those buildings had just been constructed through the
wPA funds and things like that, and you know, junior colleges were just
sort of getting started in many ways at that time, but that was a bit of a
bridge for you. I would think it was kind of a transition helped you get
ready for ASU in some ways. Yeah, I I decided to go to phoenix college
because one, it was closer to phoenix indian school and number two, uh a
coach, a basketball coach at phoenix indian school by the name of joe
family elect was a family, a famous uh indian school coach
that
really encouraged me that I should go to phoenix college and that he had
some conversation with the basketball coach there and uh and so one day
coach, family let uh come into his office and he says, if you want to go
to finish college you can get on the coaches program and uh play some
basketball there and for that in exchange for for you playing on the team
, then you would be able to get uh free ticket that for your meals and
tuition and books and you don't really have to pay for anything. And so I
look at that and enrolled at phoenix college, where did you live? I live
for, for a while, I live at phoenix indian school during the first
semester, but then I had to move out, I believe it was in in december or
january uh because there were more students that were coming in at phoenix
indian school now to leave and give my uh room to those incoming students.
And so coach family, let's just pick me up and he says that you can live
with us, you can we just had one spare room and you can live there and you
can walk to to phoenix college. And so what I did at at phoenix indian
school was that I walk every morning from 3rd Street on Indian School Road
all the way to uh 16th street on thomas road. Uh
and that was walking every morning. Yeah and once I once I uh made the
basketball team then I got to know other players on the team. Then they
gave me a right back back to the door, back to the venus in school campus
, at the dormitory. And so I was able to make those kinds of arrangements
by getting to know some of those players. Were there other indian players
on the team. There was one other american indian uh students on the team
and that's uh Rodney Lewis, Rodney Lewis uh went to North high school and
he was one of the better players in the city of phoenix back then and did
very very well, this is from the well known family. It yeah, yeah, he is
uh from hell a river a member a member of the tribe and his father was
preacher there at indian school, he had a church there and uh many of the
indian school kids went to his church and uh just a really good solid
family and they really believe in in education and so Rodney Lewis had had
a good background because his family was so strong in community affairs
work with many, many of the indian people here in city of phoenix.
And for the basketball team. What was your what was your strength as a
player? What did you especially like about basketball or part of the game
? Yeah, I I played on the team, I made, I made the team and unfortunately
during the season uh I really got beaten up, my tooth was knocked out and
the first time I lost my front tooth and uh and I had to it was broken in
half and I had to go through uh phoenix and then uh hospital to take care
of. And then the other thing was that uh my ankle, uh I had a broken ankle
right at the lower half of my ankle in high school. And uh and that never
really healed up, it was always with me. Uh the doctor was advising me
that when you break an ankle like that and you you stay in bed and uh and
you stay in bed for so long, you get tired of staying in bed and then
sometimes you think you get well so you you start using your your your
feet again, you start walking again and yes, the first day it won't hurt.
And uh but what you're really really doing is that you're using it before
it gets completely healed and uh and if you keep on using it and keeping
on using it, it never really really heals up and so you're just damaging
your ankle. Well when I was at phoenix college, I sprang my ankle in the
on the same side in the same place and that was really painful. It was the
most painful thing that I ever experienced at nights. It would swell up
and and the doctor says that you're just going through a lot of uh painful
process towards uh healing your ankle. And uh and that the the only thing
that they could do was just give me some strong medicine to take care of
the pain and they don't actually really treat it and yes, I did have a
a brace that they put on uh and but then uh you get tired of that too. And
so uh you end up taking it off because because you can't wear shoes. And
so you you you get tired of that too. And so that's what happened to me uh
at phoenix college and I end up uh dropping out towards the middle or 2/3
of the season. And so that that's what happened
and when you decided to come to S. U. Which I guess wasn't he wasn't asked
you yet as the did you think at all about going somewhere else to school
or just because it was the nearby, I didn't really think about going Uh
anywhere else. I enrolled at Phoenix College in 1958
and I went to school therefore two years for a year and a half or two
years. And then uh in 1960 I came to ASU. And I really did not think about
going anywhere else except to go to A. S. U. And uh and that was because I
knew people here in the city of phoenix And I had some support from other
people that that that I knew here in Phoenix that I could rely on and I
couldn't rely on my parents because they weren't working, they were living
330 miles away from Phoenix on the Navajo nation. And so you had to learn
how to shift for yourself and you know, I didn't have a scholarship but I
went to A. S. U. And I told him I could work, you guys need help and I
could work here and all I want to do is take some courses uh and trying to
extend my education and what I have earned it at phoenix college, I want
to add on to it and get my degree in education and go back to an
examination as a teacher. That was my goal and
it was something that I really really focus on. That was what I wanted to
uh from A. S. U. And S. You responded and they put me to work. That's just
where there can you think about one or two people who made a difference
for you who were part of the staff faculty or somewhere at ASU that helped
you a little bit and getting making that transition and moving on with
your studies? Well I would credit uh coach family from transitioning me
from the phoenix indian school concept over to phoenix college because
he's he offered his house, he offered his home. And uh and so I was able
to stay there until I finish it in his college. And then when I went to a
. s. U. in 1960 uh bob Russell was here, bob Russell was just a young man
getting his degree uh here at A. S. U. Working on his doctoral degree here
at issue at the same time he was also an associate professor and education
in education. And he was one individual that also helped me kind of showed
me uh campus and some of the people that I need to know that could be of
some help. So he was very very helpful and I owe a lot to uh the late dr
Russell and the other person that people never really ever heard about.
But in my own mind he was also very very helpful. Was a guy named keegan,
I don't remember his first name, but he was a professor here uh in
industrial arts.
He kind of took an individual interest in me because I was different in
his class, I was completely different than the other students. And and he
uh saw my work what I was capable of doing and uh and the work that I was
performing in his class was also a little different than the rest of the
other student. He was an industrial arts teacher where uh for example one
of the courses that he was teaching was what they call finishing uh where
you work with metal and you finish uh
do finish work fine work when you well things together and make sure that
it holds and is strong and then you sand it off with a sander and then you
finish all of that and make sure whatever it is that you put on is also
something that stays on. And he taught the same thing with with the
different kinds of wood and how you finish and what materials you use to
finish with. And uh some of it had to go into cabinet making and design in
different things and how the factory uh design uh different things that we
we use in their homes. And uh and so he he talked that he also taught uh
finishing work on cars, vehicle, how you can redo your the body of a car
and uh and then how you can paint it and what you have to use and so a lot
of handwork and I guess Professor keegan, I saw that
I like doing that kind of work. And so he kind of gave me some some extra
work that I could do to improve my grades for example. And so, uh, he's
still around, he comes around every once in a while. He was just a great,
great person.
And yeah, so we're about at that time I guess. Um, we can pick up from
here. Okay. Why don't we do this? Uh, maybe what we'll do is you and I get
together on a time again and then let's, let's just talk about the future.
The challenges on the Navajo for example, education and what where it's
at right now where I think it should go and then uh, economic development
where it's at now and where it should go. The population, urbanizing
neighborhood communities and where it's at now. And the struggle that it
went through the Navajo nation where where it's headed. I think those will
be very very good. Good. Good. Okay. Okay.
I'll get keegan's Doctor keegan's first name. Uh huh.
And the correct spelling of his name. Okay.
I really enjoyed good this today. I hope you did. It was, I thought it was
there was something I learned I didn't know about and it reminds you how
much difference an individual can make in your life, you know, just, we
all have our heroes, every one of us. Yeah. Uh mine were those three
individuals,
I remember when I first arrived at at NCC and I met bob and you know, he
had a big voice, you know,
and all that enthusiasm and uh all the rest, all that energy. Yeah. He
sure had that, I'll say. And I just, you know, first I met ruth and met
other people from the the family. And
yeah, I was so, I was so lucky to have that experience and but I can just
see bob kind of taking you in hand and saying, okay, you know what? You
can do it in other words. Yeah, good for him. Okay. Okay. Thank you very
much. You'll go look at your calendar and figure out what next next week
it can't be next. It can't be this month because next week I'll be fine
being in Flagstaff on Wednesday
and then I'm going to wallop I reservation. So then the following year
we're getting into the first of january. Okay, well sometime sometime in
january would be great. Ok. And what I'll try to do is is to listen to the
tapes, you know, between now and then and kind of get a sense of where
we've been and all the rest of it, but I really enjoyed today. So thank
you. Okay. Including my friend. All right.
Talk more personally. Yeah. Yeah. That was really he had his own
experiences going to school and uh stuff like that. That's excellent. Well
sometimes it takes a while probably.