WEBVTT 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:06.997 Yes, we're on, we're on uh we wanted to talk a little this morning about 00:00:07.030 --> 00:00:11.857 leadership and about changing times. I'm always impressed when I go back 00:00:11.890 --> 00:00:17.116 through the Navajo documents and how many people were speaking out and 00:00:17.149 --> 00:00:21.287 trying to do their best to make sure the land didn't get taken and the 00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:26.607 forging a future, you might say for the next generation, 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:30.837 when I think about the meaning of leadership of course is different from 00:00:30.870 --> 00:00:34.946 one time to another. And over the course of your life, you've seen a 00:00:34.979 --> 00:00:41.207 variety of leaders, some of them very effective. But 00:00:41.240 --> 00:00:48.266 it was an enormous challenge to fight off the various dangers to people's 00:00:48.299 --> 00:00:55.107 water in people's lands, people's lives. I wondered when you were, 00:00:55.140 --> 00:01:01.467 you know, when you came back to Navajo country, you had a opportunity to 00:01:01.500 --> 00:01:05.617 being to think about that in a sense of see these different patterns of 00:01:05.650 --> 00:01:10.507 leadership emerge. Oh, 00:01:10.540 --> 00:01:14.647 DNA was obviously an important agency and it was in its own way of 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:20.007 political agency to taking on various 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:24.757 cases various issues, various problems. I had just come to the Navajo when 00:01:24.790 --> 00:01:29.897 you know, this was getting started and you and ted Mitchell went out and 00:01:29.930 --> 00:01:33.507 recruited some people and 00:01:33.540 --> 00:01:37.676 there was work to do. Um when you think about the patterns of the 00:01:37.709 --> 00:01:42.417 leadership or the people who are leaders today, what are some of the 00:01:42.450 --> 00:01:49.947 important qualities or attributes a leader in Navajo country would have 00:01:49.980 --> 00:01:54.107 had to have had or would need today. 00:01:54.140 --> 00:02:02.140 My own perspectives on the issue of leadership is that every generations 00:02:04.540 --> 00:02:09.406 have their own leaders. They 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:16.277 mhm did whatever it is that they think it should be done. And while doing 00:02:16.310 --> 00:02:23.506 that throughout neighborhood history, they did a wonderful thing for the 00:02:23.539 --> 00:02:31.539 Navajo people. And so uh these qualities or attributes of leaders really 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:39.416 comes in with time because every one of us, every one of us we have our 00:02:39.449 --> 00:02:47.449 own leadership qualities, abilities and what have you. And it was one of 00:02:49.629 --> 00:02:57.346 those situations in the life of many of the Navajo people that what they 00:02:57.379 --> 00:03:05.379 did uh was significant and it was extraordinary. And in terms of the 00:03:06.849 --> 00:03:14.106 qualities I would say for neighborhood leaders, one of those important 00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:20.827 attribute is the individual has to know the Navajo culture, They had to 00:03:20.860 --> 00:03:28.606 know the Navajo clan system, how people are all related uh to each other. 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:34.307 And there are things that comes with those relationships 00:03:34.340 --> 00:03:42.256 a re Navajo family has for example in laws, they are married into another 00:03:42.289 --> 00:03:48.656 family. And if you know the clan system very, very well then there are 00:03:48.689 --> 00:03:52.106 things like the teasing 00:03:52.139 --> 00:04:00.139 of never who individual comes into uh use by Navajo who's who's very well 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:08.840 versed in clan relationship and that's that's just to keep uh the uh 00:04:09.139 --> 00:04:15.416 whatever the issue is at hand going and uh yeah the Navajo people well 00:04:15.449 --> 00:04:19.447 during the election they will fight, but they always come back together 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:25.717 after the election and that's one thing that one has to admire the Navajo 00:04:25.750 --> 00:04:31.687 people about. So the relationship between all these families, the 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:37.337 knowledge on the Navajo culture, the knowledge clan relationship for me 00:04:37.370 --> 00:04:44.236 was very, very important. The second one is uh one of the qualities that 00:04:44.269 --> 00:04:51.317 the individual has to have is a dream. You can't just look at yourself as 00:04:51.350 --> 00:04:56.786 an administrator of the largest indian tribe in the United States, but to 00:04:56.819 --> 00:05:04.819 be able to have a vision, to be able to have some degree of knowledge 00:05:06.910 --> 00:05:13.916 about how to get to that vision that you're looking uh in distance away, 00:05:13.949 --> 00:05:20.197 years away into the future. How do you organize so that you get the 00:05:20.230 --> 00:05:24.777 neighborhood nation to get to be at a certain point at a certain time in 00:05:24.810 --> 00:05:32.757 their history. So visionary uh leader, uh someone who has a vision is very 00:05:32.790 --> 00:05:38.666 , very important. And I guess the other thing is that you also have to 00:05:38.699 --> 00:05:44.077 have an ability not only in the Navajo language, in the Navajo culture, 00:05:44.110 --> 00:05:52.110 but in terms of the ability to speak english very well and then be able to 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:59.656 articulate those dreams. Uh for me it was very, very important and I think 00:05:59.689 --> 00:06:06.517 that's sometimes a quality that lot of people overlooked. Everybody has an 00:06:06.550 --> 00:06:13.536 idea, everybody thinks about what is it that they want to do. But you 00:06:13.569 --> 00:06:19.687 can't get lost in explaining what those visions are. You gotta be able to 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:26.036 articulate it so that you connect with people and you know what people are 00:06:26.069 --> 00:06:32.406 thinking and so an articulation of those dreams, 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:39.656 your vision I think is very, very important. I always said also that a 00:06:39.689 --> 00:06:43.087 leader has to know 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:50.587 that when he gets to a corner, he has the, he should have the ability to 00:06:50.620 --> 00:06:56.577 anticipate what's around the corner on the other side without actually 00:06:56.610 --> 00:07:02.007 looking at it. He has to be able to two 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:10.040 see the situation as as they really are and uh that anticipation of what 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:16.067 may be coming I think is very important also because when you, when you 00:07:16.100 --> 00:07:20.676 have these kinds of leadership then you're prepared for anything that may 00:07:20.709 --> 00:07:27.406 come your way. So the ability to get around to a corner and then look on 00:07:27.439 --> 00:07:32.666 the other side of the building I think is very, very important for an 00:07:32.699 --> 00:07:38.846 effective, good leadership. So I just wanted to say some things about 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:44.866 those, the qualities that I think never where people are able to to look 00:07:44.899 --> 00:07:49.707 at the last one I think is very, very important. 00:07:49.740 --> 00:07:55.906 Uh huh Navajo is going through and evolution 00:07:55.939 --> 00:08:01.346 um being traditional person 00:08:01.379 --> 00:08:09.379 and then goin from that kind of living, going from that history of the 00:08:10.139 --> 00:08:17.437 Navajo people over to the modern way of life under on the reservation and 00:08:17.470 --> 00:08:23.127 I think an individual has to have those experience that traditional people 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:29.236 had for example, herding sheep, tending to the horses, planting your own 00:08:29.269 --> 00:08:36.726 corn, raising your own food and and then being able to live in a Hogan and 00:08:36.759 --> 00:08:44.759 knowing the Navajo prayers, all of those kinds of traditional uh behavior 00:08:46.059 --> 00:08:50.307 pattern, that neighborhood people have, one has to really understand that. 00:08:50.340 --> 00:08:55.746 And you can only learn that those, those aren't taught in school. You can 00:08:55.779 --> 00:08:59.537 only learn from your parents and grandparents and people in the community 00:08:59.570 --> 00:09:06.167 , all those kinds of attributes. And uh, and you have to be able to 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:13.226 measure your own ability against some of your own, for example, uncles and 00:09:13.259 --> 00:09:18.927 aunts and grandpas that live in those communities. And so it's important 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:25.146 that a person who wants to be a leader go through all of that process. And 00:09:25.179 --> 00:09:33.026 it's something that I thought was was important and much of what people 00:09:33.059 --> 00:09:41.059 did. Uh, they're in the, for example, the 1950s and 60s and 70s. And the 00:09:44.210 --> 00:09:51.807 other thing that I think is very important is is that a person also has to 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:59.840 have some kind of an experience where they go through hardship themselves 00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:07.776 and that they know how to react to those trying times. You don't, one 00:10:07.809 --> 00:10:12.876 doesn't really know the quality of a leader until there is a problem, huge 00:10:12.909 --> 00:10:20.909 problem, controversy, an emergency to see how that individual behaves. And 00:10:21.139 --> 00:10:28.726 uh, if there's some kind of a tragedy, uh, some, some really, uh, an event 00:10:28.759 --> 00:10:33.626 that really affects so many people, then you really find who the leaders 00:10:33.659 --> 00:10:39.866 are. And because you can't just go in front of the people say, you know, 00:10:39.899 --> 00:10:44.957 I'm going to be your next leader. They, they had to see that. And so I 00:10:44.990 --> 00:10:50.896 think those kinds of experience are of necessity. I also would like to add 00:10:50.929 --> 00:10:57.506 one other thing on this question and issue and that is just, 00:10:57.539 --> 00:11:03.187 I admire the Navajo people in the past. 00:11:03.220 --> 00:11:07.476 And I'll give you insight some examples 00:11:07.509 --> 00:11:15.509 if you look at the time that the Navajo people were in prison uh, in fort 00:11:16.000 --> 00:11:19.307 Sumner at well death 00:11:19.340 --> 00:11:25.657 And we stayed there for four years and there were many, many Navajo people 00:11:25.690 --> 00:11:31.707 that were imprisoned there by the United States Government at the time. 00:11:31.740 --> 00:11:39.236 And, and the Navajo people that the Navajo leaders that were there, they 00:11:39.269 --> 00:11:46.726 were actually medicine men. Chief Manuelito is a good example. Ganado 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:53.077 musha is a good example and some of the very well known Navajo people that 00:11:53.110 --> 00:12:00.376 were imprisoned there and, and they survive because they knew the 00:12:00.409 --> 00:12:06.827 neighborhood uh religion, they knew the Navajo ways of life, They know 00:12:06.860 --> 00:12:12.707 that they knew that you had to depend on yourself to be self sufficient 00:12:12.740 --> 00:12:17.307 and the United States Government thought that they might all die there, 00:12:17.340 --> 00:12:23.177 but they survive, they survive. So they must have had something uh, for 00:12:23.210 --> 00:12:29.506 them to do that and to go through all that, that ordeal and they came back 00:12:29.539 --> 00:12:36.506 in 18, I believe it was in 1868, 00:12:36.539 --> 00:12:40.766 during that period, they came back to the Navajo, but when they were in 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:46.327 the process of being released from fort Sumner, the leaders did not fight 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:51.687 , uh, they wanted to get back to their land, they wanted to get back to 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:55.746 their people, they were homesick for their uh, you know, for their 00:12:55.779 --> 00:13:00.366 relatives and for their homeland. So they didn't fight over a little small 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:04.726 detail when they were signing the treaty, they just said that this, this 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:09.386 gives us an opportunity to get back to the, to our original land. So so 00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:17.419 they did. And when they got to the, what was now the neighborhood nation, 00:13:17.740 --> 00:13:25.557 it was just a small piece of elongated land that went from, let's say, 00:13:25.590 --> 00:13:31.516 somewhere south of Window Rock. Arizona going all the way up north along 00:13:31.549 --> 00:13:39.549 the state line, Uh, into Shiprock. And it was no more than uh, maybe uh 00:13:40.009 --> 00:13:46.256 one million acres of land. A small piece of land that they accepted. They 00:13:46.289 --> 00:13:53.246 didn't fight over or they didn't, they didn't really resist the fact with 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:56.297 the federal government. While the process of negotiation, they didn't 00:13:56.330 --> 00:14:00.827 fight over the small piece of land that they were being asked to go back 00:14:00.860 --> 00:14:08.860 to because I think they themselves agreed amongst themselves that 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:15.856 they would go back to the Navajo. And when they do that, they have a 00:14:15.889 --> 00:14:22.567 tremendous amount of work ahead of them and which was to increase the 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:29.207 acreage that they, the original land that they went back to. I wasn't 00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:32.616 anywhere near what they were looking for, but they didn't make a big fuss 00:14:32.649 --> 00:14:36.516 about that. They just went back then they all went to work. Each one of 00:14:36.549 --> 00:14:42.217 these chiefs leaders, They all went to work and they start adding to their 00:14:42.250 --> 00:14:48.087 reservation every so often, maybe every 10 years every five years they 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:54.057 would, for some reason they would keep on adding to the Navajo nation. So 00:14:54.090 --> 00:15:02.090 from 1868, when they went back to that one million acre of land two, 2000 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:12.840 oh eight, They now have 17 million acres of land. So you go from one 00:15:12.970 --> 00:15:19.876 million acres of land 2 17, about 17 million acres of land. That's a huge 00:15:19.909 --> 00:15:27.909 , huge edition. Wow. How did that happen? Why did it happen? I always say 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:34.636 it happened because the neighborhood leadership for that long period of 00:15:34.669 --> 00:15:40.776 time, for that long period of time, over 100 years, each one that there 00:15:40.809 --> 00:15:46.356 was leaders, uh, that they came out of the neighborhood generation, They 00:15:46.389 --> 00:15:53.917 had the same uh, goal, uh, that what they wanted to do was Navajo 00:15:53.950 --> 00:15:59.217 population is increasing. We're getting more and more young people into 00:15:59.250 --> 00:16:06.437 their tribe each year. Therefore the land has to grow as, as the 00:16:06.470 --> 00:16:11.187 population of the Navajo people is also grown and none of those leaders 00:16:11.220 --> 00:16:16.146 ever said, we shouldn't be doing that. We should be happy with a model 00:16:16.179 --> 00:16:23.246 acres that we have. They all spent resource. They all did exactly the same 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:28.707 thing from one generation to the other and which was to add more land to 00:16:28.740 --> 00:16:31.707 the neighborhood nation. 00:16:31.740 --> 00:16:36.896 I like the leadership of Chief Manuelito because he knew, he knew that 00:16:36.929 --> 00:16:44.106 that was happening. He also said what we now need is education 00:16:44.139 --> 00:16:52.139 and so at a time when the idea of center neighborhood youngsters to, to 00:16:52.820 --> 00:17:00.006 receive their education was a bad thing among the Navajo people. He chose 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:05.816 the route of something are never who youngsters to colleges and university 00:17:05.849 --> 00:17:09.756 to boarding schools. He said that they have to learn how to speak, english 00:17:09.789 --> 00:17:16.607 , they have to learn the white man's ways. If we can send our Children to 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:23.207 to school, have them learn the white man's ways, then we can use the 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:30.766 education, the education system as a way to win our battles. And so he 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:37.326 didn't shy away from a controversy where majority of neighborhood people 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:42.937 at the time did not want to send their Children to school. He make sure 00:17:42.970 --> 00:17:48.046 that the neighborhood Children, uh, and the Navajo families gave up their 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:52.526 Children to go to school because he knew that was something that needed to 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:58.006 be done because we were adding land to the Navajo people, the Navajo land 00:17:58.039 --> 00:18:03.867 right and left, you know, every four or five years and the Navajo 00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:07.536 population was increasing. And he said that we can't really just stay that 00:18:07.569 --> 00:18:10.756 way. We're going to send these people out to school, Let him become 00:18:10.789 --> 00:18:15.097 doctors, let him become engineers, let him become nurses, let him become 00:18:15.130 --> 00:18:21.496 uh, lawyers and that we can do that. We can use the same thing to fight 00:18:21.529 --> 00:18:25.707 our battles. And these young people will fight our battles for us and 00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:33.117 we'll win in, uh, in many of those situations. And uh, we'll win, uh, by 00:18:33.150 --> 00:18:39.306 educating our youngsters. And he said that the only way you could do it is 00:18:39.339 --> 00:18:44.556 is to learn more about the ways of the white man. And after we are kids 00:18:44.589 --> 00:18:49.467 learn all about that. You know, then they can fight their battles 00:18:49.500 --> 00:18:55.996 effectively because at that point it would be almost like them. So I think 00:18:56.029 --> 00:19:04.029 that's such an ad. And Admiral, I really, I really admire the way the 00:19:05.970 --> 00:19:12.107 neighborhood leadership progress in that fashion. Put in, uh, 00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:19.687 all of the land expansion, uh, together with, with education. And so when 00:19:19.720 --> 00:19:24.897 something like that happens, you can't have be positive for the future of 00:19:24.930 --> 00:19:28.457 the neighborhood nation. And I think that's going to continue anyone who 00:19:28.490 --> 00:19:35.576 is a good example earlier time, anyone. Nika is an individual that 00:19:35.609 --> 00:19:43.407 probably did the most, uh, any neighborhood leaders. And she did it 00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.707 because 00:19:45.740 --> 00:19:51.357 that was her personality. She did it without much education. She didn't 00:19:51.390 --> 00:19:55.627 have the greatest education in the world that one could receive. She 00:19:55.660 --> 00:20:01.786 didn't have a college degree, But she had qualities that most people 00:20:01.819 --> 00:20:08.826 admire and those qualities was the ability to communicate very well with 00:20:08.859 --> 00:20:13.157 the Navajo people in the neighborhood land, which on health issues. For 00:20:13.190 --> 00:20:19.707 example, she was one of these individuals that had the ability to see 00:20:19.740 --> 00:20:24.266 what's around the corner that most people didn't see. She knew what was 00:20:24.299 --> 00:20:31.107 coming. And so she anticipated some of these things and then she did not 00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:36.627 just not do anything that bothers. She went out and she did something. So 00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:41.826 when the Navajo people were being affected by tuberculosis, never what 00:20:41.859 --> 00:20:47.506 people were dying left and right from uh, from tuberculosis, she did 00:20:47.539 --> 00:20:53.917 something about it. And so she single handedly built, mhm all of these 00:20:53.950 --> 00:20:59.766 sanatorium one here in phoenix and I believe one in colorado springs and 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:04.217 she went before congress to have congress appropriate money so that the 00:21:04.250 --> 00:21:11.586 Navajo people who was further alone and and uh the uh tuberculosis, the 00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:17.246 stage of sickness, those people were then put at the sanatorium, she 00:21:17.279 --> 00:21:23.476 visited with them almost maybe twice or maybe even four times a year. And 00:21:23.509 --> 00:21:29.867 so she had that quality and she's uh, she always remained as one of my 00:21:29.900 --> 00:21:36.607 favorite Navajo leader. You think in many indian communities, you have 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:41.907 leadership is something that runs in the family. There's an expectation 00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:46.036 come of age that your father was this or you're grandmother was sad or 00:21:46.069 --> 00:21:51.447 your uncle was this. And uh there's that since a lot of different in the 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:55.367 community. So that is something that you sort of called upon to do in part 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:58.986 because you come from a family that historically and in our own time has 00:21:59.019 --> 00:22:06.806 provided that leadership, that expectation that you will carry on. 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:11.506 And sometimes it's hard to see, you know that family because you can't 00:22:11.539 --> 00:22:16.907 automatically trace it. But you know, you think about 00:22:16.940 --> 00:22:22.306 people believing in themselves and empowerment and necessity to fight for 00:22:22.339 --> 00:22:26.907 what was right and they really had to fight. I mean, they had some good 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:30.796 allies, but in the end it was you think about tom dodge who I think is an 00:22:30.829 --> 00:22:33.006 overlooked 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:38.657 leader of great importance. And tom dodge had his way livestock production 00:22:38.690 --> 00:22:43.226 period would not have gone about it quite the way it was. Even though he 00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:49.607 lost that fight, he uh you know, he was trying to do the best he could do 00:22:49.640 --> 00:22:56.026 two make that program not quite as terrible as you have been. You go back 00:22:56.059 --> 00:23:01.286 and look at the tribal council minutes and you see the speeches that 00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:04.816 people gave and the protests they articulated, it's not just about 00:23:04.849 --> 00:23:08.717 livestock production as you know, it's about conditions for people working 00:23:08.750 --> 00:23:16.107 in fields off reservation, a whole series of things, this phrase and 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:20.506 english about history and they said, we really need to look more at 00:23:20.539 --> 00:23:24.796 history is something that people make rather than have a history of 00:23:24.829 --> 00:23:30.927 something that happens to you. My sense of not the leadership is one, it 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.467 is engaged in these matters because I really don't have any choice and 00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:40.826 they need to fight in different ways for themselves. You look through time 00:23:40.859 --> 00:23:45.296 , there are a series of issues like that, including our own time, there's 00:23:45.329 --> 00:23:51.597 water rights or coal mining or variety of things like that. Think about 00:23:51.630 --> 00:23:55.556 someone like Willie morgen, William morgan's, it was a pioneer in terms of 00:23:55.589 --> 00:24:01.607 written Navajo and working with the languished robert young that took real 00:24:01.640 --> 00:24:04.437 ability. And really, you're talking about perceptiveness sort of looking 00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:08.286 at the future. He understood that he was not going to be a politician in 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:10.667 that sense, but he was going to do something that would really make a 00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:15.687 difference in terms of the language and the languages future. We don't 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:19.207 always worry anything about 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:21.986 something like bob russell, you mentioned in the past, some of these are 00:24:22.019 --> 00:24:25.707 Navajo people, some of these are married people, 00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:29.746 but there are people who over the course of time understand something 00:24:29.779 --> 00:24:35.806 about what the needs and what the obligations 00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:38.806 when you were 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:45.907 the head guy and DNA that was a leadership position. 00:24:45.940 --> 00:24:48.306 Did you? 00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:53.907 And you've talked about the Mcclanahan case. Another other things 00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:57.467 tell me something more about how leadership was important within that was 00:24:57.500 --> 00:25:04.607 ted Mitchell a leader. Somebody that made everybody unhappy 00:25:04.640 --> 00:25:12.640 when I was a DNA. Uh huh. I came to the program as, as a young person. I 00:25:13.460 --> 00:25:18.407 must have been out of college only several years when I was called upon 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:26.440 two mhm had one of the largest american indian legal services program in 00:25:27.289 --> 00:25:35.117 the United States. You have to look at that situation where perhaps I was 00:25:35.150 --> 00:25:43.046 the only non indian american indian director at the time. And that raised 00:25:43.079 --> 00:25:51.079 a lot of questions mainly from uh lawyers and maybe from the State Bar 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:59.279 County Bar association, how can we have a non indian person lead in such a 00:25:59.619 --> 00:26:07.619 large american indian uh legal services program, but one one. Uh then back 00:26:09.859 --> 00:26:16.957 then they didn't really understand that to have uh a skill and to be 00:26:16.990 --> 00:26:23.347 trained legally was only one aspect of directing the program. Maybe in so 00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:31.197 many ways it was better to have a non indian or excuse me. Uh maybe it was 00:26:31.230 --> 00:26:38.806 better to have a non lawyer director who is an american indian from that 00:26:38.839 --> 00:26:45.647 from that nation from that country. And so I was one that there was 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:53.597 individual that let a program that was very effective. It was highly 00:26:53.630 --> 00:27:01.630 respected by the Navajo people. Yes, we had a situation where also many of 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:08.677 the people from away from the reservation did not really like the 00:27:08.710 --> 00:27:14.157 activities DNA people's legal services program basically, basically 00:27:14.190 --> 00:27:20.736 because we were defending the rights of individual american indians. And 00:27:20.769 --> 00:27:27.707 so Ted Mitchell was one of these individuals at first came to Navajo 00:27:27.740 --> 00:27:34.016 reservation right out of law school at Harvard University. And he was 00:27:34.049 --> 00:27:42.049 asked by uh, the O. N. E. O. Program too build and to establish a legal 00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:51.687 services program. And I must have been either the third or the fourth 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:57.847 person in his administration that was hired to run the legal services 00:27:57.880 --> 00:28:04.907 program. And so he made me the the director of tribal court advocacy 00:28:04.940 --> 00:28:11.726 program for the DNA legal services. And uh, and Ted Mitchell certainly was 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:17.157 a leader. He was a leader in his own right. Uh and he also had legal 00:28:17.190 --> 00:28:22.336 skills and legal talents. And uh, he was one that there was individual 00:28:22.369 --> 00:28:29.187 that was not afraid to say what was on his mind. And uh, he was in the 00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:34.766 ritual that also cared a lot about the indian people, the Neverhood people. 00:28:34.799 --> 00:28:42.326 And by everything that he did, it was geared towards protecting the 00:28:42.359 --> 00:28:48.157 rights of individual that every person has certain had certain rights. And 00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:53.006 uh, and he was there to protect those rights and have people understand 00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:58.607 that situation. 00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:05.006 When you think about the Navajo country From the 1970s for a long time, 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:08.976 it's been a very challenging time for the Navajo nation and there's been 00:29:09.009 --> 00:29:12.407 some great victories as well. 00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:16.056 I think the trust fund is something we've talked about this. If you had to 00:29:16.089 --> 00:29:22.357 name several accomplishments or things that happened during your point of 00:29:22.390 --> 00:29:27.226 service is tribal council chair nomination ship. I would think that would 00:29:27.259 --> 00:29:33.576 be near the top of your list in terms of long term significance. But one 00:29:33.609 --> 00:29:38.486 thing is always related to something else isn't one connection with 00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:44.796 another. But I've often thought about your particular upbringing. It low 00:29:44.829 --> 00:29:48.996 mountain in your sense about the chapter house and the fact that you 00:29:49.029 --> 00:29:52.806 didn't want to window rock to be the only place where they were making 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:54.907 decisions. 00:29:54.940 --> 00:30:02.940 But the challenge of making no ship equivalent sort of rights or authority 00:30:03.509 --> 00:30:10.266 or power at the chapter level. Uh, that's in terms of voting variety of 00:30:10.299 --> 00:30:13.576 things. That seems to be something that you've been dedicated to for a 00:30:13.609 --> 00:30:16.826 long time. You didn't want when you became the chairman, you don't want to 00:30:16.859 --> 00:30:22.746 be the imperial president. You want to make sure the local people had to 00:30:22.779 --> 00:30:29.286 say and what was going that is that a correct assumption on? Yeah. Yeah. I 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:35.506 would say that that is probably a correct exemption because uh it was 00:30:35.539 --> 00:30:40.867 something that I was involved in right from the beginning. I mean I cared 00:30:40.900 --> 00:30:48.900 about people, I was very well a reverse in what people, the hardships that 00:30:49.150 --> 00:30:57.150 people went through. And I also knew about the needs and the desires of uh 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:04.667 individuals that live out in the community of low mountain. And I knew 00:31:04.700 --> 00:31:10.897 that if given the opportunity that many of those people that I grew up 00:31:10.930 --> 00:31:15.347 with would take advantage of those opportunities. And so sometimes you 00:31:15.380 --> 00:31:20.976 have to be mindful of the fact that when you present those opportunities 00:31:21.009 --> 00:31:27.417 to individuals, uh you also know that many of them will take advantage of 00:31:27.450 --> 00:31:32.887 those opportunities. And it's those individuals that did that, that was 00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:38.917 able to function very well in their community or even on or after 00:31:38.950 --> 00:31:45.576 reservation. And because they saw how important those opportunities were. 00:31:45.609 --> 00:31:51.407 And one of those opportunity was going out and receiving your education 00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:58.167 and then using that education too better not only your own family, but the 00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.207 whole nation, the 00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:08.046 the neighborhood nation for example can benefit from that. And so yes, I 00:32:08.079 --> 00:32:16.079 would say that I spent a lot of my career, a lot of my life time defending 00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:25.137 the rights of individual because I knew that if given some opportunities, 00:32:25.170 --> 00:32:30.796 these individuals would surface, uh, somewhere to become leaders of the 00:32:30.829 --> 00:32:34.786 Navajo nation. I guess that's the reason why I'm here at Arizona state 00:32:34.819 --> 00:32:40.286 University because I see a lot of good qualities and young people. Uh, 00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:44.576 Navajo people that come through colleges, the university here in the 00:32:44.609 --> 00:32:49.836 valley and when I see one always worked with them in such a way that they 00:32:49.869 --> 00:32:55.816 understand tried to make them realize that they have a duty back to their 00:32:55.849 --> 00:33:03.849 home communities wherever they came from. 00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:11.197 If you think about the people who people from nomination have come here to 00:33:11.230 --> 00:33:17.746 school the numbers, the statistics are really remarkable. I mean when you 00:33:17.779 --> 00:33:22.246 were finishing up at ASU, I bet you, somebody said to you x number of 00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:27.006 years from now contrast how many none of us are at issue now. Uh, there 00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:31.147 will be, You know, 1000 or whatever the right number is. You would have 00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:36.016 probably been pretty skeptical that day with come and yet you've had a 00:33:36.049 --> 00:33:41.576 major role in bringing that about in terms of working with the emission 00:33:41.609 --> 00:33:45.657 staff and financial aid and a variety of other things like that. There's a 00:33:45.690 --> 00:33:49.296 big university, it's a lot to take on more to take on in some ways than 00:33:49.329 --> 00:33:53.746 when you were here a different different way. So there has to be also, I 00:33:53.779 --> 00:33:58.207 would think great satisfaction for you in terms of seeing the concrete 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:02.617 positive results and not everybody is a success story, but what I find 00:34:02.650 --> 00:34:08.267 myself saying to novel students know suicide, the key messages, one of 00:34:08.300 --> 00:34:11.896 empowerment, you're saying you can do it, you have to believe in yourself 00:34:11.929 --> 00:34:17.787 , but this is an opportunity and I've seen person after person, you know, 00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:22.307 accept that challenge at the end of the year, need paul or wherever we are 00:34:22.340 --> 00:34:28.787 , when you're speaking about the people are graduating and going on, that 00:34:28.820 --> 00:34:36.820 has to be a an evening of particular pride and emotion for you. 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:42.907 Well, that all came about because 00:34:42.940 --> 00:34:49.756 I had a vision and I had a dream of my own where I, one of these 00:34:49.789 --> 00:34:56.477 individuals that really believe that if we can educate more people on the 00:34:56.510 --> 00:35:04.276 Navajo reservation, if we can educate more of our Navajo youngsters 00:35:04.309 --> 00:35:11.666 that they would rise to the occasion, become self sufficient and solve 00:35:11.699 --> 00:35:17.967 their own problem. And the way to get to that stage is if you go out and 00:35:18.000 --> 00:35:26.000 recruit those students who are able capable, good character, good academic 00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:32.617 record that sees all that this as an opportunity. If you, if you can't get 00:35:32.650 --> 00:35:39.327 those individuals to a university and then began working with them, that 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:47.360 that is something that I wanted to do and I wanted to promote and from my 00:35:47.449 --> 00:35:51.907 position here, working out of the President's office, Arizona State 00:35:51.940 --> 00:35:57.717 University, I was able to do that. It's also one of those things where if 00:35:57.750 --> 00:36:04.506 you really really know the situation, you have to set your goals. Uh In 00:36:04.539 --> 00:36:09.677 other words when I came here at A. S. U. One of the things I was told that 00:36:09.710 --> 00:36:14.947 the university is really interested in was to get in more students. Well I 00:36:14.980 --> 00:36:20.367 have to figure out how do you get more students? And uh and then I start 00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:26.456 going uh out into the communities or start seeing different tribal 00:36:26.489 --> 00:36:31.376 governments within the state here as well as in the southwestern start 00:36:31.409 --> 00:36:35.356 recruiting students. And when you start dealing with those numbers, you 00:36:35.389 --> 00:36:40.796 have to set a goal for yourself. And so that's when we sat down and said 00:36:40.829 --> 00:36:46.497 uh bye A year 2000 00:36:46.530 --> 00:36:53.876 12 or 2015 we've got to have this many american indian students here on 00:36:53.909 --> 00:37:01.909 campus and it's a goal that we set. And what you do is you have to just 00:37:02.230 --> 00:37:05.936 people that you're working with, you just have to keep on reminding them. 00:37:05.969 --> 00:37:10.697 You know that that's the goal, that's something to work for. And so that 00:37:10.730 --> 00:37:15.106 what that does is that every morning when you get up you have to look at 00:37:15.139 --> 00:37:19.486 those goals, you have to think about those goals and say today I got to 00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:25.686 recruit so many more students that I can convince to come to a issue. And 00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:33.719 so I did all of that because I know that if we can get a lot of our Navajo 00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:39.166 and indian youngsters to come to a. S. U and then put them back on the 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:45.206 reservation that much of the problems that we see out there uh will come 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:50.697 to its own resolutions by its own people. You know from those areas you 00:37:50.730 --> 00:37:57.017 can always have and expect somebody to come in from somewhere and uh and 00:37:57.050 --> 00:38:02.586 start working on those problems for them. It has to be done from within. 00:38:02.619 --> 00:38:09.467 And there's those american indian students that have an opportunity to to 00:38:09.500 --> 00:38:16.376 blossom into a powerful leadership. That's the only way that you can 00:38:16.409 --> 00:38:20.447 resolve a lot of those issues. It's a fragile business isn't even during 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.856 the time I was teaching at the college people were just doing great in the 00:38:23.889 --> 00:38:27.756 classes and come in on monday morning. They were gone. Yeah. You know, and 00:38:27.789 --> 00:38:31.057 you said what happened? Well, you know, there was this problem at home or 00:38:31.090 --> 00:38:36.827 that from him to be resolved. And you know, Arizona seems to specialize in 00:38:36.860 --> 00:38:41.006 absolutely the longest semesters in the history of the world. You know, 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:46.416 you're I just have been reminded again and again how important sometimes 00:38:46.449 --> 00:38:49.947 it's a small financial problem but it doesn't seem small when you're in 00:38:49.980 --> 00:38:55.497 the middle of it or something happened at home or whatever. And I think 00:38:55.530 --> 00:39:01.026 given the support staff and your office and others there's been a much 00:39:01.059 --> 00:39:06.026 better record in terms of taking that on and seeing a way you can help 00:39:06.059 --> 00:39:12.586 work through this situation rather than just sort of, 00:39:12.619 --> 00:39:17.287 But you know, I think in american society more generally, there's more 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:21.037 uncertainty about education and what will, what will bring and where, 00:39:21.070 --> 00:39:25.887 whether it'll take people away from you. And I think you and others 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:30.427 deserve a lot of credit for your determination to, you know, set a course 00:39:30.460 --> 00:39:36.347 that would be productive. I mean, he said this our discussion for, I can't 00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:42.887 walk across campus almost any time of the day without seeing Navajo people. 00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:45.686 And that 00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:51.217 that's really something. Well, that, that's a wonderful thing to see. I do 00:39:51.250 --> 00:39:55.907 the same thing. I went to school here at Arizona State University and I 00:39:55.940 --> 00:40:02.697 enroll here In the 19, early 1960s. And when you walk across campus, you 00:40:02.730 --> 00:40:08.727 didn't see anybody that was native. And nowadays I walk across the campus 00:40:08.760 --> 00:40:15.597 and it's not unusual, for example, to go from my office over to the law 00:40:15.630 --> 00:40:23.026 school and along the way have three individuals that stop you and they 00:40:23.059 --> 00:40:28.256 want to shake hand and they want to introduce themselves. And then, uh, 00:40:28.289 --> 00:40:32.847 and those are our own people. Those are our own american indian students. 00:40:32.880 --> 00:40:38.736 And uh, and the same thing happens when I go from my office over to the 00:40:38.769 --> 00:40:44.967 President's office or to the football stadium. It's not unusual to see 3-5 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:50.387 people that stopped you and introduce themselves as individuals who come 00:40:50.420 --> 00:40:57.097 from your tribe. And it gives, it gives me a great feeling, uh, you know, 00:40:57.130 --> 00:41:02.887 and a lot of satisfaction and the fact that you're beginning to see many 00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:08.316 other indian students here, I saw that don't know what you call it, not 00:41:08.349 --> 00:41:12.916 really a brochure, but this publication about esu and looking towards the 00:41:12.949 --> 00:41:18.186 future and you you're rather prominently featured in that. Mhm. How did 00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:23.646 you feel about that? Well, it's one of those things that uh you don't 00:41:23.679 --> 00:41:29.376 actually seek out to be in that position or to be mentioned in those kinds 00:41:29.409 --> 00:41:37.409 of uh either newspapers or booklets or magazine. But when you work long 00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:44.517 and hard and long enough, you know, people recognize what's happening and 00:41:44.550 --> 00:41:50.776 I think uh the discussion that we're having today uh is one of those were 00:41:50.809 --> 00:41:57.166 people are beginning to realize the significant of american indians 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:04.097 students presence here at Arizona State University and the magazine that 00:42:04.130 --> 00:42:10.267 you're referring to is just recognizing the fact. Uh a lot of the work 00:42:10.300 --> 00:42:16.997 that was done was done by uh myself and others and I can't really take all 00:42:17.030 --> 00:42:23.847 the credit by myself. There were so many people that had a role in uh in 00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:31.880 bringing many of these students to the campus here. 00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:39.327 What are two or 3, two If you prefer major challenges that the nomination 00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:45.566 face today or I faced in the recent past. 00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:50.166 I think one of those challenges 00:42:50.199 --> 00:42:53.867 right now is 00:42:53.900 --> 00:42:57.247 trying to keep 00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:01.267 the never who government 00:43:01.300 --> 00:43:09.300 to be accountable to the people we have for the first time, the Neverhood 00:43:11.469 --> 00:43:17.267 tribal budget is 00:43:17.300 --> 00:43:25.300 Almost 200 million. Wow. I believe the last time I read the some of the 00:43:25.309 --> 00:43:31.967 work that they're doing regarding generating more revenue is what the 00:43:32.000 --> 00:43:38.396 tribal government, I think they were using something like 175 million as 00:43:38.429 --> 00:43:46.429 an annual budget. And when I went into uh run in the Navajo government, It 00:43:49.510 --> 00:43:56.787 was barely $35, $40, $40 million. And then because of all the work that we 00:43:56.820 --> 00:44:03.646 did, we came up to something like 50 or 16 million and you could run the 00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:09.537 tribe efficiently uh with that amount of money and the tribal government 00:44:09.570 --> 00:44:16.876 was small. But during the last several years it has really blossom uh into 00:44:16.909 --> 00:44:23.356 such a huge, huge bureaucratic organization. And when you do that, you're 00:44:23.389 --> 00:44:28.037 going to end up spending more money because you have more people that are 00:44:28.070 --> 00:44:33.956 managing a lot of these programs for the, for the neighborhood nations. 00:44:33.989 --> 00:44:40.727 And I think one that the challenge that they're facing right now is is how 00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:48.166 do you have the Navajo nation government continued to be accountable to 00:44:48.199 --> 00:44:55.657 the Navajo people and at the same time become an efficient in what they do. 00:44:55.690 --> 00:45:02.467 For example, there's just too many rules that applies to the daily life 00:45:02.500 --> 00:45:09.867 of people and sometimes you can't really do anything about a project that 00:45:09.900 --> 00:45:14.486 you're trying to pursue without getting some kind of approval from 00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:21.166 somewhere or a committee and sometimes that becomes a very discouraging 00:45:21.199 --> 00:45:28.447 and disheartening for individuals who want to do something. And so I think 00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:35.416 that's the biggest challenge. The other challenge that I see right now is 00:45:35.449 --> 00:45:41.747 managing the appropriate management of their resources. We're an indian 00:45:41.780 --> 00:45:47.057 tribe that has a huge amount of resources, diversified resources. We have 00:45:47.090 --> 00:45:52.057 , we have the cold, we have the uranium, we have the water, we have the 00:45:52.090 --> 00:45:58.506 land, we have the force and we have oil and gas, we have all these natural 00:45:58.539 --> 00:46:05.767 resources at our disposal on the Navajo. Uh, what does one do to 00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:12.546 effectively manage those resources? And uh, so the balancing act that the 00:46:12.579 --> 00:46:17.986 Neverland nation has to do is how do you protect and preserve, but at the 00:46:18.019 --> 00:46:23.316 same time develop those resources to provide employment for, for the 00:46:23.349 --> 00:46:27.316 Navajo people. And that's going to take a lot of education, is going to 00:46:27.349 --> 00:46:32.416 take some good experts and it's going to also take a tremendous amount of 00:46:32.449 --> 00:46:38.677 resources, a lot of money to do an effective job in managing the 00:46:38.710 --> 00:46:42.646 management of those resources. And I'd like to see the Navajo people 00:46:42.679 --> 00:46:49.206 themselves do that. And so I think we're at a stage where the Navajo 00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:55.816 people are able and capable of doing and managing their own resources and 00:46:55.849 --> 00:47:01.367 there's something that I think never people I need to do. And that I would 00:47:01.400 --> 00:47:08.586 say is also one of the, the biggest challenges that they're facing. I mean 00:47:08.619 --> 00:47:13.666 , we had to worry about water water to every community and never have been 00:47:13.699 --> 00:47:21.376 as large as it is, it requires more resources to do that. And now people 00:47:21.409 --> 00:47:27.336 need homes, that people need more schools. Uh, and you know, they need all 00:47:27.369 --> 00:47:32.236 these infrastructure and to build infrastructure on that reservation is 00:47:32.269 --> 00:47:39.367 very costly. And uh, and they have to find ways to do all of that in the 00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:45.197 most efficient way to me. That's a big challenge that the Navajo nation is 00:47:45.230 --> 00:47:49.146 facing right now. 00:47:49.179 --> 00:47:53.017 When you think about leaders in the past and the present, you think about 00:47:53.050 --> 00:47:58.646 all those challenges and difficulties President share would have to face. 00:47:58.679 --> 00:48:03.646 It's like they were joking on election night about Obama. They said if he 00:48:03.679 --> 00:48:08.077 wins, he should demand a recount because nobody should really want to take 00:48:08.110 --> 00:48:11.566 that all on. You think about that head of the Navajo nation, it's just, I 00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:15.526 mean, it's can be rewarding, but it's also even more challenging, even 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:20.497 more difficult, Even more contrary than probably a winning candidate right 00:48:20.530 --> 00:48:25.477 , realizes being actually in that chair in that spot, dealing with demands. 00:48:25.510 --> 00:48:30.697 It's easy to be on the outside. Not easy, but it's different. And I think 00:48:30.730 --> 00:48:37.646 about it's no wonder that Navajo political battleground is being the way 00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:43.736 it's been because it's just unprecedented demands upon leadership and 00:48:43.769 --> 00:48:49.137 variety of people were eager if given the chance to 00:48:49.170 --> 00:48:53.727 let let the President have the opportunity to go in some counterproductive 00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:57.137 directions. 00:48:57.170 --> 00:49:02.427 And it's just, it's a warren harding the President of the United States 00:49:02.460 --> 00:49:08.247 said it's a hell of a job. I mean it really is. And yet if you can somehow 00:49:08.280 --> 00:49:13.097 make your way through this gauntlet labyrinth that has to be enormously 00:49:13.130 --> 00:49:17.046 satisfying to you, but you can certainly recognize why other people in the 00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:24.436 modern age of upon occasion faltered or lost their ways. And 00:49:24.469 --> 00:49:32.336 Well, I think the Navajo people have to recognize that 00:49:32.369 --> 00:49:40.369 being the Navajo president or chairman is not easy, particularly with the 00:49:40.369 --> 00:49:47.537 Navajo because uh if you look at the population of the Navajo, 00:49:47.570 --> 00:49:54.046 you have many non english speaking traditional people that still hang onto 00:49:54.079 --> 00:50:02.079 the land. They still uh live traditional lifestyles. You also have young 00:50:03.730 --> 00:50:10.486 people on their reservation that have message degree, doctorate degree and 00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:15.977 they're highly educated and their demands from the tribal government or 00:50:16.010 --> 00:50:19.666 from the neighborhood nation is way lot different than the traditional 00:50:19.699 --> 00:50:26.427 people. So you have a wide 00:50:26.460 --> 00:50:34.066 mhm concepts at the way life is and because of that, because of such a 00:50:34.099 --> 00:50:40.816 vast difference in between those two lifestyle, it just makes your job a 00:50:40.849 --> 00:50:47.807 lot harder because you had to constantly go back and forth in terms of 00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:54.227 your working ability and then the time that you spent on different issues. 00:50:54.260 --> 00:51:02.260 And so it's because of that, you know, it's a it's very complicated 00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:09.376 hard position and it takes a skillful person to deal with all of those 00:51:09.409 --> 00:51:15.907 issues. Uh while if you look at the state of Arizona or the state of New 00:51:15.940 --> 00:51:20.236 Mexico or California? Yeah, they have their problems. Their problems are 00:51:20.269 --> 00:51:25.847 different. But I don't think it's as hard as, as the Navajo because out 00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:32.206 here, you can use television, you can use radio and because of the 00:51:32.239 --> 00:51:37.236 education and sufficient sophistication level of the people that live in 00:51:37.269 --> 00:51:43.666 these states, you can reasonably expect that whatever it is that you're 00:51:43.699 --> 00:51:49.327 doing, that they will catch on. They'll know, uh, what you're trying to do 00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:55.526 under Navajo, you have, you have the white spectrum of beliefs and 00:51:55.559 --> 00:52:01.657 lifestyle and that makes it harder. And so it's something that I think the 00:52:01.690 --> 00:52:08.577 Navajo people have to really recognize in terms of, uh, the people that 00:52:08.610 --> 00:52:13.117 they like to to run their government. 00:52:13.150 --> 00:52:18.057 There's a phrase about the adjoining countries of Belgium Luxembourg and 00:52:18.090 --> 00:52:24.677 the Netherlands, they say they are inseparably divided. Yeah. And that's 00:52:24.710 --> 00:52:30.137 sort of reminded me of Navajo nation and politics that people out at 00:52:30.170 --> 00:52:34.717 Torian or somewhere like that, or you have somebody up whipper will or 00:52:34.750 --> 00:52:39.776 whatever. These are people who are not exactly, you know, within fighting 00:52:39.809 --> 00:52:44.086 distance of Winter rock and they, you know, even though the something's 00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:50.327 changed, that's an ongoing dilemma and, you know, maybe opportunity to. 00:52:50.360 --> 00:52:56.557 But um, it's you think about representation. Yeah. Should there be more 00:52:56.590 --> 00:53:01.316 women on the council? Should there be more 00:53:01.349 --> 00:53:06.247 voices heard? It's difficult to, because people are very different to 00:53:06.280 --> 00:53:11.416 advantage points on their own life experiences? 00:53:11.449 --> 00:53:14.727 I've got one last quick question for you, Do you think the best days of 00:53:14.760 --> 00:53:20.947 the Navajo nation are still becoming, I really believe that, I really 00:53:20.980 --> 00:53:28.717 believe that from here on out, you're going to see more neighborhood women 00:53:28.750 --> 00:53:35.217 on the council in leadership position because 00:53:35.250 --> 00:53:40.617 of what's happened then. Uh within the track, if you look at the last 00:53:40.650 --> 00:53:48.566 election for chapter elections this last month in november, there are more 00:53:48.599 --> 00:53:56.599 Navajo young women who were elected at the local chapter houses. And it's 00:53:58.309 --> 00:54:04.747 just alarming in a good way that these things are happening for the first 00:54:04.780 --> 00:54:11.157 time. The Navajos don't have that stigma attached to the concept that 00:54:11.190 --> 00:54:15.316 women shouldn't become leaders. There are more and more of them. And I 00:54:15.349 --> 00:54:22.456 think that group is gonna gradually evolve into getting into the council. 00:54:22.489 --> 00:54:28.646 And uh, and maybe some people may look at that in a negative way. Uh, I 00:54:28.679 --> 00:54:32.577 tend to look at that in a positive way. It's a good development. We should 00:54:32.610 --> 00:54:40.610 have uh equality of between male and female in the council because after 00:54:41.170 --> 00:54:49.170 all, the population is almost evenly balance between male and female. So 00:54:51.150 --> 00:54:58.137 we've got to have that representation. So I think good things will come 00:54:58.170 --> 00:55:04.307 out of that. And I think the Navajo people are at that stage right now, 00:55:04.340 --> 00:55:10.506 you very much 00:55:10.539 --> 00:55:14.997 good. Thank you. 00:55:15.030 --> 00:55:20.577 I was thinking of my old friend glow, Gene Benson to Jeannie and you know 00:55:20.610 --> 00:55:24.856 , she's on the, was the county board of supervisors who were in new Mexico 00:55:24.889 --> 00:55:31.776 and just had a christmas card. She's really enjoying it. It's tough. Uh 00:55:31.809 --> 00:55:34.447 Anybody who marries into the chinese probably have to be pretty tough to 00:55:34.480 --> 00:55:39.967 start with. She she's really happy to have this chance and she's not so 00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:43.947 young. But when you think about I think the next generation of you're 00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:47.706 absolutely right. It's really gonna be a transformation of the council 00:55:47.739 --> 00:55:52.307 because of the kind of you know the people who are going to be a part of. 00:55:52.340 --> 00:55:57.017 Yeah mm if you'd like to just take that with you and give it back to 00:55:57.050 --> 00:56:00.916 Joyce I was giving that as a gift to them but I thought you might like to 00:56:00.949 --> 00:56:05.467 borrow it. Just look at it if you want. Okay I like to look at it. Yeah I 00:56:05.500 --> 00:56:11.677 read it then bring it back just yeah I'm gonna get after. Yeah I want to 00:56:11.710 --> 00:56:16.477 make sure some of these paper things that I have get passed along to other 00:56:16.510 --> 00:56:21.697 people can use some net. We had that term paper assignment last semester 00:56:21.730 --> 00:56:28.896 about DNA legal services and it was great to see all these students. Okay 00:56:28.929 --> 00:56:34.307 looking at your papers and DNA stuff you know they really they were very 00:56:34.340 --> 00:56:38.006 possible about that. Really learned a lot about you. Think about how long 00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:41.916 this outfit has been going and how many lives it's touched. It's really 00:56:41.949 --> 00:56:46.177 something but it's interesting to me as a historian. I used to go back and 00:56:46.210 --> 00:56:54.210 look at these early issues in early discussions that are going on. 00:57:09.130 --> 00:57:16.997 Good. Okay. Yeah sure that's fine. 00:57:17.030 --> 00:57:24.840 Mhm. Okay. Mhm. Good. Okay. Well I gotta I gotta run my friend. Yeah.