WEBVTT

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 yeah, mohawk okay.

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I used to spend a lot of time with
those two and then When I got into the

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60s and about when we expected the
Supreme Court to rule, I used to meet

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once a week, have lunch with Floyd
Dominy, wow. At least once a week. We

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had some of the same interests

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and we

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uh we used to go to chinatown and
that's where we met every all the every

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luncheon was in chinatown. Okay. And

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but so i it was sort of self education

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men of course if you had any questions
I had to do was ask the senator

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because he had he knew it. It's and uh
then of course one document I

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thought was invaluable

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was Rifkin's report. Unbelievable. So
well written. It's

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fun reading, it's fun reading. It's
hard to believe a legal document like

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that, a California do they were done.
Oh yes. And we knew we were going to

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win the Court decision when we read
that by 1960, you already have goose

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bumps. It's going to move forward. It
takes three more years before it's

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pretty close vote, you have a three
year. And uh but that's that's weird,

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I was confident. So as a senator, he
just felt that after he read it and

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he thought Rifkin did join a hell of a
job and and putting all those

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issues in such perspective by the
colorado river compact is not relevant

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to this. A project act of 1929. And
he, I don't know, I must have read

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that three or four times. Yeah, I
forgotten most of it now. I tried to

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forget a lot of it because it was a
bloody time people lost jobs and

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committed, you know died just and then
of course mike ely was always a

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pain in your past but he was right. Oh
yeah I'm hearing his money you know

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son of a bit was from Arizona
originally. I know did you ever meet Wilbur

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? What kind of was he just reserved,
quiet leah and

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Yes, I thought he was just quiet and
reserved and I didn't know him that

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well but uh and I didn't meet snail on
too much later when I was a senator

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in the late 60s when I met frank
Snell. Yeah what was he like what was he

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like? Sharper and hell more of a
businessman. He was a lawyer. No very

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much business and that's what I was
meeting with him but stuff for our

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research and a couple other defense
contractors and other stuff that they

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represented and okay so it was all
politics not a politics and money and

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clients for their firm. Yeah but I
smarter than hell you know, I like both

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of them

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uh senator. I'm not sure I always
wanted to smell out in front. He did.

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Yeah, now but you know I maybe I
shouldn't say that but uh

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but when it got down to the nitty
gritty there in the end, you know the

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where there weren't too many that we
could rely on in either in the stream

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commission or anyplace else. And so we
sort of selected charlie and

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and Bill Guggenheim. Bill joking. I
say engineer and hell I even hired.

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The biggest mistake I ever made was
hiring got my name of palmer who was

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assistant commissioner bureau
reclamation and a damn mormon and he thought

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he was a senator there for a while. I
had to find the son of a gun because

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he was writing letters and not
designing the senator's signature. And I

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caught him in that night at last and I
fired his goddamn house and then of

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course, and I was a bad guy then
because he was supposedly going to help

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us and he didn't know the things, but
mhm. I All right. No. You know, I

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just didn't In the end. You know when
the Senate, when the thing is

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finally handed out in 63 and everyone
has these couple of years of

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anticipation. The court comes down the
last kind of flailing in California.

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This last legal failings north Korea.
He realizes this is coming down

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this way. Uh,

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the senator, what did the senator do
and what do we think about our legal

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team? And well, what Ronnie Salmon was
part of it. You know, he,

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you wanted to be sober emotionally.

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Yeah, I'd have to think. You always,
you know, as I said, joe mansfield

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certainly. Yeah, joe got killed. You
know, in an airplane crash into a

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mountain on his way up to Bullhead
City when I go outside of your mind any

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, that's right

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actually,

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by the time the court decision came
down, we were into the politics of it.

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You're headed to the legislative
phases and

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where they were helpful as

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putting together briefing books, les
gold background, a team that they

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brought back. It was pretty good
though,

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I guess they had problems with me. But
uh

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and because they, we start dealing
with Abbott Goldberg and uh Marc

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steiner steiner, it was dealing with
Governor Brown directly because Brown

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wanted to get this behind him and he
was he was still in Wilbur to West

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diner, an attorney or engineering know
he's an engineer, he was a state

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water engineer, you know, Arizona
hired him, which I thought, Okay, yes,

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that's Arizona for you. Uh but West
did a good job for the state for that.

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But they were too particularly Abbott
Goldberg, but the two of them were

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just fine to deal with. And so was
Governor Brown,

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I told you about Governor Brown coming
over to campaign for, you know, not

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what you say. Well this is in, This is
in 64

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and uhh

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and Goddard and

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mo Udall and all I was running for
statewide office. Wanted Brown to come

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in and when I heard about it, I said
what the hell are we doing inviting?

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We're in a big fight with him and he's
going to come over and campaign for

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us. I sure don't want him in a
statement. It's too late then. And I

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already invited him. So the next best
thing I got to write a part of this

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speech about me. Okay, put that into
his speech. Well, of course I've had

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all these lawsuits found the call girl
lawsuit had been found and all of

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this and and and all of this. But
well, apparently Brown wasn't aware of

00:08:09.889 --> 00:08:14.317
this. And when he came in we had a big
guarantee. Adams, hotel, I guess.

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Yeah, big lunch. And you know, and
they're sitting at the head table was

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Brown, me then Goddard and all of them
here. And so Brown gets up to make

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his remarks and he said this one, I
was driving into town this morning. I

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saw one of his billboards and I know
it's a good slogan. All right. But I

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said Roy, why don't you consider using
this slogan? And I used when I ran

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for attorney general state of
California and I was the only democrat has

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won that year statewide. And from
there I went on to become the governor

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of the largest state in the union and
doctor said Roy says to me with

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governor, what slogan was that? He
says? Why don't you try women of

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Arizona wake up with Roy nelson.

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There was total silence in the room.
Total no, I know what and no one had

00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:14.557
briefly tell us. And and then I broke
up. I just I wrote would with black

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and then the face broke up and he
thought he had totally real goody. Well

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when we got out of it, we're flying
down to Tucson. I said, you know I

00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:25.776
want to tell you governor, I didn't
want you to stay in the first place.

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And then I told him said jesus crazy,
we've been of Arizona wake up with

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Royals and that should be the title.
It's pretty funny. Good.

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Oh Roy. Uh huh

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video. Um

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but as you know from your own book and
all that,

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Those were difficult times from 64 to
68. Very sharp exchange. Even my

00:10:02.500 --> 00:10:08.396
book doesn't contain the the real
stuff. I saw I had a filter that because

00:10:08.429 --> 00:10:13.876
some of it was nasty and in a month
within within the democrats between

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Roy and the senator and Stewart Udall
and finally you see Carl Hayden

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pulled his trump card. Look, I've been
here longer than you. This is what

00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:31.587
I expected. Well yeah, yeah. At one
time he also went to to President

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Canada and said I'll take care of my
administrative assistant. You take

00:10:37.110 --> 00:10:43.386
care of your secretary interior. Yeah,
this one nasty. Yeah. It got really

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nasty. How do you get along with you
dolls today? Okay mom and I became

00:10:47.929 --> 00:10:53.307
good friends. You know you played golf
and now you got I I think I have a

00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:59.986
copy of the memorandum my debut him
and norma before they got married.

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What are problems you have with, she
had had with the family and all that

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because no, and I had been hiding,
knew about their relationship long

00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:18.407
before they got married when Tiger was
still tiger and anyhow,

00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:23.967
uhh with more and I became pretty, you
know, I was at his wedding and all

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the other stuff. We used to go play
golf up in at the national, up in Long

00:11:30.519 --> 00:11:37.037
Island, one of the second oldest golf
course in America. And I would

00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:43.106
always be telling my lobbyist, of
course it's okay,

00:11:43.139 --> 00:11:51.139
paid for it, but stored of course, so
we talk and he claims that I am sure

00:11:52.590 --> 00:11:59.346
he still pissed at me, mm and, and I'm
not too pleased with him either,

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but we've sort of buried the hatchet,
I think, but I'm not sure.

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Um, who else steiger? What about Sam?
Yeah, you get along with him, Okay.

00:12:11.409 --> 00:12:17.776
Oh, yeah, Well Sam was sort of a wild
man. I loved him as a character. And

00:12:17.809 --> 00:12:25.496
I remember, uhh all right, I once made
a comment to the press or something

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that's well, Sam hasn't been long
enough to find around here long enough

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to even find the bathrooms and, and
uh, Sam retorted, uh, only Roy would

00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:39.307
know all the, with all the bathrooms
were,

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I loved the guy, but you know, he he
wasn't a lot of help. Norwood was

00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:53.616
Duke Center particularly. Who was that
guy and what was he like? Very

00:12:53.649 --> 00:13:00.726
personable, and you know charlie
fellow, well met and all that, but uh

00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:07.947
from L. A County, you know. Yeah. And
but He's a Congressman before just

00:13:07.980 --> 00:13:14.226
before Steyer 66, what is your take on
gene polio polio piece in here,

00:13:14.259 --> 00:13:18.407
nicely written piece. Right.

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God, you're great. Um, tell me what
that was almost from memory, but it's

00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:30.187
a wonderful, very, very engaging, very
colorful. Tell me your take on jean

00:13:30.220 --> 00:13:34.807
Pulliam I know at the end here so
grateful for the role he played in

00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:40.787
Haines reelection. But overall put
your take overall I was think he did a

00:13:40.820 --> 00:13:47.356
lot for Arizona and I think though he,
it was sort of a fascist, I mean,

00:13:47.389 --> 00:13:53.697
but he was a good newspaper man. He
ran a pretty good newspaper. For the

00:13:53.730 --> 00:13:59.907
most part we had some good people
around him and but he was,

00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:03.907
I liked him. I think he was.

00:14:03.940 --> 00:14:09.407
What would you take on the

00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:15.077
that whole triangulation with
organized crime? Don balls? We've covered

00:14:15.110 --> 00:14:20.486
that earlier. It's funny. Do it again.
Do it again. Just briefly your take

00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:27.407
on that because well see everyone
denied we had any mob connections in

00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:33.506
Arizona want christ. It was where
everyone retired. It was very active in

00:14:33.539 --> 00:14:40.207
Maricopa and pima county, jesus knew
all those but islands and

00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:45.746
particularly us and you name them, you
know, they were all and so we

00:14:45.779 --> 00:14:50.047
always had this small element and as I
was telling Jack earlier I had some

00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:54.346
encounters with him and of course Todd
Bowles was one of the was a friend

00:14:54.379 --> 00:14:59.537
and also one of the best investigative
recorders I ever knew and he was on

00:14:59.570 --> 00:15:07.570
to a lot of things and yeah uh but
just

00:15:08.740 --> 00:15:14.407
was made a mistake. I mean he should
have known better

00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:21.386
go into the been suckered on that
call. You got to meet? No, because he

00:15:21.419 --> 00:15:26.297
was on to a lot of stop fighting for
what it all was because actually jean

00:15:26.330 --> 00:15:34.330
Eugene Pulliam had Have balls
investigate me for three years and in fact

00:15:36.139 --> 00:15:43.136
fully um told Carl Hayden in my
presence at When we went to see him after

00:15:43.169 --> 00:15:45.707
two

00:15:45.740 --> 00:15:53.437
to see if I was right. He said I
probably know more about this man and he

00:15:53.470 --> 00:16:00.396
does about himself. In fact I'm told
from all the reports that by now he

00:16:00.429 --> 00:16:05.297
has to be a billionaire and have
screwed every woman west of the

00:16:05.330 --> 00:16:10.807
Mississippi and I know that's not
true.

00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:16.856
Uh huh. Well you certainly have some
great quotes in the senator laughed

00:16:16.889 --> 00:16:23.207
and said, well not quite any other.

00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.907
Uh huh.

00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:30.776
Well I think that's uh that might be
it for a day. I mean these are

00:16:30.809 --> 00:16:35.827
exhausting. I know the all history
pits but uh you know these are very

00:16:35.860 --> 00:16:41.266
good insights and uh when you we're
gonna get this together linda help,

00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:43.590
how can westop