yeah, mohawk okay.
I used to spend a lot of time with those two and then When I got into the
60s and about when we expected the Supreme Court to rule, I used to meet
once a week, have lunch with Floyd Dominy, wow. At least once a week. We
had some of the same interests
and we
uh we used to go to chinatown and that's where we met every all the every
luncheon was in chinatown. Okay. And
but so i it was sort of self education
men of course if you had any questions I had to do was ask the senator
because he had he knew it. It's and uh then of course one document I
thought was invaluable
was Rifkin's report. Unbelievable. So well written. It's
fun reading, it's fun reading. It's hard to believe a legal document like
that, a California do they were done. Oh yes. And we knew we were going to
win the Court decision when we read that by 1960, you already have goose
bumps. It's going to move forward. It takes three more years before it's
pretty close vote, you have a three year. And uh but that's that's weird,
I was confident. So as a senator, he just felt that after he read it and
he thought Rifkin did join a hell of a job and and putting all those
issues in such perspective by the colorado river compact is not relevant
to this. A project act of 1929. And he, I don't know, I must have read
that three or four times. Yeah, I forgotten most of it now. I tried to
forget a lot of it because it was a bloody time people lost jobs and
committed, you know died just and then of course mike ely was always a
pain in your past but he was right. Oh yeah I'm hearing his money you know
son of a bit was from Arizona originally. I know did you ever meet Wilbur
? What kind of was he just reserved, quiet leah and
Yes, I thought he was just quiet and reserved and I didn't know him that
well but uh and I didn't meet snail on too much later when I was a senator
in the late 60s when I met frank Snell. Yeah what was he like what was he
like? Sharper and hell more of a businessman. He was a lawyer. No very
much business and that's what I was meeting with him but stuff for our
research and a couple other defense contractors and other stuff that they
represented and okay so it was all politics not a politics and money and
clients for their firm. Yeah but I smarter than hell you know, I like both
of them
uh senator. I'm not sure I always wanted to smell out in front. He did.
Yeah, now but you know I maybe I shouldn't say that but uh
but when it got down to the nitty gritty there in the end, you know the
where there weren't too many that we could rely on in either in the stream
commission or anyplace else. And so we sort of selected charlie and
and Bill Guggenheim. Bill joking. I say engineer and hell I even hired.
The biggest mistake I ever made was hiring got my name of palmer who was
assistant commissioner bureau reclamation and a damn mormon and he thought
he was a senator there for a while. I had to find the son of a gun because
he was writing letters and not designing the senator's signature. And I
caught him in that night at last and I fired his goddamn house and then of
course, and I was a bad guy then because he was supposedly going to help
us and he didn't know the things, but mhm. I All right. No. You know, I
just didn't In the end. You know when the Senate, when the thing is
finally handed out in 63 and everyone has these couple of years of
anticipation. The court comes down the last kind of flailing in California.
This last legal failings north Korea. He realizes this is coming down
this way. Uh,
the senator, what did the senator do and what do we think about our legal
team? And well, what Ronnie Salmon was part of it. You know, he,
you wanted to be sober emotionally.
Yeah, I'd have to think. You always, you know, as I said, joe mansfield
certainly. Yeah, joe got killed. You know, in an airplane crash into a
mountain on his way up to Bullhead City when I go outside of your mind any
, that's right
actually,
by the time the court decision came down, we were into the politics of it.
You're headed to the legislative phases and
where they were helpful as
putting together briefing books, les gold background, a team that they
brought back. It was pretty good though,
I guess they had problems with me. But uh
and because they, we start dealing with Abbott Goldberg and uh Marc
steiner steiner, it was dealing with Governor Brown directly because Brown
wanted to get this behind him and he was he was still in Wilbur to West
diner, an attorney or engineering know he's an engineer, he was a state
water engineer, you know, Arizona hired him, which I thought, Okay, yes,
that's Arizona for you. Uh but West did a good job for the state for that.
But they were too particularly Abbott Goldberg, but the two of them were
just fine to deal with. And so was Governor Brown,
I told you about Governor Brown coming over to campaign for, you know, not
what you say. Well this is in, This is in 64
and uhh
and Goddard and
mo Udall and all I was running for statewide office. Wanted Brown to come
in and when I heard about it, I said what the hell are we doing inviting?
We're in a big fight with him and he's going to come over and campaign for
us. I sure don't want him in a statement. It's too late then. And I
already invited him. So the next best thing I got to write a part of this
speech about me. Okay, put that into his speech. Well, of course I've had
all these lawsuits found the call girl lawsuit had been found and all of
this and and and all of this. But well, apparently Brown wasn't aware of
this. And when he came in we had a big guarantee. Adams, hotel, I guess.
Yeah, big lunch. And you know, and they're sitting at the head table was
Brown, me then Goddard and all of them here. And so Brown gets up to make
his remarks and he said this one, I was driving into town this morning. I
saw one of his billboards and I know it's a good slogan. All right. But I
said Roy, why don't you consider using this slogan? And I used when I ran
for attorney general state of California and I was the only democrat has
won that year statewide. And from there I went on to become the governor
of the largest state in the union and doctor said Roy says to me with
governor, what slogan was that? He says? Why don't you try women of
Arizona wake up with Roy nelson.
There was total silence in the room. Total no, I know what and no one had
briefly tell us. And and then I broke up. I just I wrote would with black
and then the face broke up and he thought he had totally real goody. Well
when we got out of it, we're flying down to Tucson. I said, you know I
want to tell you governor, I didn't want you to stay in the first place.
And then I told him said jesus crazy, we've been of Arizona wake up with
Royals and that should be the title. It's pretty funny. Good.
Oh Roy. Uh huh
video. Um
but as you know from your own book and all that,
Those were difficult times from 64 to 68. Very sharp exchange. Even my
book doesn't contain the the real stuff. I saw I had a filter that because
some of it was nasty and in a month within within the democrats between
Roy and the senator and Stewart Udall and finally you see Carl Hayden
pulled his trump card. Look, I've been here longer than you. This is what
I expected. Well yeah, yeah. At one time he also went to to President
Canada and said I'll take care of my administrative assistant. You take
care of your secretary interior. Yeah, this one nasty. Yeah. It got really
nasty. How do you get along with you dolls today? Okay mom and I became
good friends. You know you played golf and now you got I I think I have a
copy of the memorandum my debut him and norma before they got married.
What are problems you have with, she had had with the family and all that
because no, and I had been hiding, knew about their relationship long
before they got married when Tiger was still tiger and anyhow,
uhh with more and I became pretty, you know, I was at his wedding and all
the other stuff. We used to go play golf up in at the national, up in Long
Island, one of the second oldest golf course in America. And I would
always be telling my lobbyist, of course it's okay,
paid for it, but stored of course, so we talk and he claims that I am sure
he still pissed at me, mm and, and I'm not too pleased with him either,
but we've sort of buried the hatchet, I think, but I'm not sure.
Um, who else steiger? What about Sam? Yeah, you get along with him, Okay.
Oh, yeah, Well Sam was sort of a wild man. I loved him as a character. And
I remember, uhh all right, I once made a comment to the press or something
that's well, Sam hasn't been long enough to find around here long enough
to even find the bathrooms and, and uh, Sam retorted, uh, only Roy would
know all the, with all the bathrooms were,
I loved the guy, but you know, he he wasn't a lot of help. Norwood was
Duke Center particularly. Who was that guy and what was he like? Very
personable, and you know charlie fellow, well met and all that, but uh
from L. A County, you know. Yeah. And but He's a Congressman before just
before Steyer 66, what is your take on gene polio polio piece in here,
nicely written piece. Right.
God, you're great. Um, tell me what that was almost from memory, but it's
a wonderful, very, very engaging, very colorful. Tell me your take on jean
Pulliam I know at the end here so grateful for the role he played in
Haines reelection. But overall put your take overall I was think he did a
lot for Arizona and I think though he, it was sort of a fascist, I mean,
but he was a good newspaper man. He ran a pretty good newspaper. For the
most part we had some good people around him and but he was,
I liked him. I think he was.
What would you take on the
that whole triangulation with organized crime? Don balls? We've covered
that earlier. It's funny. Do it again. Do it again. Just briefly your take
on that because well see everyone denied we had any mob connections in
Arizona want christ. It was where everyone retired. It was very active in
Maricopa and pima county, jesus knew all those but islands and
particularly us and you name them, you know, they were all and so we
always had this small element and as I was telling Jack earlier I had some
encounters with him and of course Todd Bowles was one of the was a friend
and also one of the best investigative recorders I ever knew and he was on
to a lot of things and yeah uh but just
was made a mistake. I mean he should have known better
go into the been suckered on that call. You got to meet? No, because he
was on to a lot of stop fighting for what it all was because actually jean
Eugene Pulliam had Have balls investigate me for three years and in fact
fully um told Carl Hayden in my presence at When we went to see him after
two
to see if I was right. He said I probably know more about this man and he
does about himself. In fact I'm told from all the reports that by now he
has to be a billionaire and have screwed every woman west of the
Mississippi and I know that's not true.
Uh huh. Well you certainly have some great quotes in the senator laughed
and said, well not quite any other.
Uh huh.
Well I think that's uh that might be it for a day. I mean these are
exhausting. I know the all history pits but uh you know these are very
good insights and uh when you we're gonna get this together linda help,
how can westop