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September 28 2004 Sonora Arizona Roy Nelson. And since we have Roy's bio
and education, we have his oral history. He did the federal government
will forego that material which is under pretty well documented and for
the purposes of the Royal Collection of Arizona Historical foundation at
Arizona State University of one of the things that that struck me, Roy was
your organizational style with your logs in the color coding. It could you
go over that again? Just so you don't forget it helps. Well uh Back in 19
after Kennedy was elected in 1961 and inaugurated. Mhm I used to get a
stack from the receptionist and the people answered a form of messages and
I tried to call them all back but you know, there wasn't that much time.
Hello I one had 500 case files. People from the Truman days and without
wanting their jobs back and things like that. So I was getting criticized
in the senator was getting criticized because you needed one of us were
returning calls. So I made up this log and I started but an innocent be
sometimes 1961. I started a log and I since refined it a lot but I kept it
daily and it was real easy. I had to have the all the messages and I went
to the receptionist and all the girls who were receiving calls for the
senator and for me and so
yeah, um I would at the end of the day go over him and those colors that I
hadn't returned. I'd put them on on my log to return first thing the next
day. All right. And that's how it's sort of started. And then I started
keeping it where I um I would keep all of my credit card records there. I
would type on the back things that I wanted to remember. Just short notes
, you know, to remind me of what is about. Yeah. And but I've kept them
since then. And now I have a color coordinated. Uh all the everything in
red is a long distance call. Everything in blue is seeing someone or a
meeting or uh man stopping by someplace or like the post office, anything
like that. And then black is anything in black local calls wherever local
was. And on the log I would right where I was. And I also kept track of
the weather and or lab and than anything in green were either
correspondence memorandums. Um All right emails and all that that's all
recent of course. But that's but that's how they're organized. So you can
look pretty much and I can look at it and pretty much tell how my day is
gone. Well, your papers are going to go along with Senator Goldwater will
be next door of course with Senator Hayden's and all that. So everything
is close to where, but you'll be uh well you have some of my stuff there
already. Yes. And uh like you have those letters from Jack more fulsome
more. Yeah man, those are wonderful letters. I don't know whether he
looked at him and and uh just for the record here false and more the
editor basically Bisbee gulch because that, you know, he but you know, he
ran the state legislature pretty much during the thirties and forties and
part of the fifty's kind of an early herald gifts in a way. Oh he was much
more than he really make Harold. Guess what the hell? Yeah. Okay. You know
, he worked for the mines, but nevertheless he knew more, you hung out at
the Adams hotel every time the legislature than some session that some guy
knew more about. Mhm. Politics and anyone I've ever met in Arizona. He no
, he called the senator's election within a couple 100 votes in every
county boy. And in my two races also he was a hell of a guy, ugly other
sin. But you know, but he knew this state backwards and forwards and he
just left. He was a great friend of the senators and of course he doesn't
want to sort of got us involved in so much in forward. You could well, you
know, it will be, he was sort of a mayor down there and when the senator
came home we had to make a trip for what you could hell. I don't know how
many times a year I would make a trip to to fort huachuca or back to
Arizona was out here and, and also
appropriation staff members. You know, we send them out here, so call, you
can build that place, you know, from and he made sure it was permanent
barracks. And of course you got moved all the stuff from Fort Monmouth
down here, that electronic stuff. And now it's like the pretty important.
Yeah. Uh,
there was something I wanted to ask about more. Um,
He was one of the three that talked me into running Eugene Pulliam. Okay.
Who got me aside at a reception, advanced Sharky's house when he was back
there for a publishers or editors, some newspaper meeting. Huh?
Jack moore and Carl Hayden and they were all Christ, they were all over 80
, I think Eugene Polio. Um, you lived in earlier today and I like to hear
it again. Uh, he had a very close just reading the new with Marlon
biography that just came out. You mentioned at least three times in that
narrative, Uh, that you uh, the election is very close. I get 241-27. It's
really 13,000 something uh, namely absentee ballots really couldn't get
close enough to steal. Bringing me like, and he mentioned Poland's role in
that, would you go over that again and the role of his wife played and all
that well. And uh, I promised you, Yeah. Well, first of all, I probably
should preface it by saying, I got to know Eugene Pulliam manny through
tom Sullivan who introduced me, you know, he was a former
county manager.
And uh, but I went to see him when I first went to see him, I was there
too. I really was prepared because I was right there ready to threaten him
with, with their joint on your ownership and all the other things in the
Justice Department that research that really good. And uh, This was when I
was putting together Carl Hayden's campaign 62 9. And so when I went in
the same as really prepared for bear and I was sort of braised and then,
and, and people said, I had mean eyes and I was prepared to do whatever is
necessary to get Carl Hayden elected. But uh, when I said yes in front of
his desk, he had his crew cut and I had my crew cot and he said, what are
you here for? A young man? And I said, well, you're the first to know, but
Karl Heinz gonna seek another term and I need to know where you're going
to be if he rented a game. And when he runs again, whether you're going to
support him or those, he must have most democrats alone christ, I couldn't
hardly get that out of my mouth. And he started telling me what great
things Carl Hayden had done for Arizona. And he says, there's no question
, where will be, will be there. And from that, I never had to open the
mouth and say anything. You know, you never knew I had all these notes in
my pocket. And anyhow, he, so we became particularly during that campaign
because of senator, as you know, only get home for that Opening his office
as he was coming out here, I think five days and then spent the last 13
days in the hospital. And because, you know, it was a urinary tract
infection. And so it was an unusual campaign, as you, well documented in
your own stuff. But um,
when I lost, when I knew I'd lost, the first race was won against Fannin,
um, my brother was there and you put it on pause and thank you. Okay. Yeah.
I think my oldest brother Edward was there as well as senator. When
Pulliam uhh, promised me a front page editorial above the fold descending
before the election. Well, when that sunday came, uhh there was a
editorial above the fold endorsing both me and paul fan. So, uh, and when
I knew I had lost and I think we were headquartered at Western ho and and
the highest compliment I think I had from the old man was that when I talk
to me, it was all over and he could go to bed if he wanted to him, he
looked at me and he said, you're just one hell of a man, young man, Nice
story. Yeah, terry about it. But anyhow, Pulliam came by the house, we're
running an apartment at the time. And my wife and I then wife and he and
nine I came by the house and the country club apartments there right
across from the phoenix country club sir. Yes. And said if last thing okay
, you know, he ever that he will see me in the United States Senate. And I
said, well you just had your chance and Mhm. You blew it as far as I'm
concerned. Yeah. Anyhow, I was curious and it was full some more. Yeah,
ran down how it ended up being a joint endorsement instead of just me and
Uh huh. Where Mrs Fannin and you got to mrs loose because they all went to
maine chance and all that together who got the main employee um who's got
jean Pulliam and so
I know he felt guilty about it, but it was too late then. And of course a
front page editorial in those days from at that time and only me and get
that close to an election. Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think he would
have switched that many votes in in America to county. Well, we're going
to process your stuff quickly. It's a big priority for for us. And uh
we'll be along your papers will be with Senator Goldwater's famines, shad
eggs, some of the major operators in the late 20th century. Uh there's on
the politics and you have, we have some beacons recall stuff, stuff went
over to dan. I arranged that before I took this job. I wouldn't have done
that. But uh but you know his governors papers or the governor's but his
car dealership and other stuff went next door, which is which is fine just
as long as they're preserved and processed. Um and I want to talk a little
bit about two topics. One is the Goldwater uh Rosenzweig situation from
your perspective because we have a collection of stuff about the I. R. E.
And all of that don Bolles situation and all of that. And someone had the
paper stuff and we have the news. We have some newspaper stuff and I think
linda will tell you after we talk. But I want to, I just want your
perspective on those guys. One and two. I want I'm doing a project on
Snell and Wilmer on Mark Wilbur in the Arizona versus California case and
your comments about how important that case was to your work on C. A. P.
And everything else will be important. But let's start with the first one
first. Then we'll get to Mark Wilmer and Arizona California. Uh Yeah, you
ran against Senator Goldwater 68. That's well documented. But uh Harry
Rosenzweig is I get to know the Goldwater papers emerges as an interesting
and complex figure. I'll just put it that way and I want you to talk about
that and reflect on what, what happened, what was going on there. Well,
you know, he and barry were very close and without question and they learn
a lot of things together but went to las Vegas a lot together. They knew
all the better the people that were assassinated in phoenix, you know,
looking what was the name? Greenbaum, Yeah. Screen bob, Yeah. And Harry
was always an interesting guy. I never really didn't know him that well
though. I met him in a number of times, but
I know for pretty reliable and he ran a call girl operation in America
economy didn't barry run as a reform candidate that stuff. I think he said
something like God, if I run a run for this
business that yeah, very definitely. Was that an open secret, I don't know
, I guess people don't just wake at it for a number of people that I knew
felt were very reliable sources knew or claimed to know. And and I'm
probably sure from firsthand experience that I encountered one of you want
to elaborate on that or said, well newspapers or uh no, it's not on those
newspapers. But you know, I have, I remember when I was running in 64, you
know, I got all those lawsuits filed against me, her over that bank
charter involving the Halderman's and and all those people who were
involved in that. And I asked Rohan, you know, it was kind of attorney
then for you to investigate the mob out here and but did I ever tell you
about taking records from the from the Arizona Corporation commission? No
, it's telling about it now. Well, christmas eve 19 63
and I've been getting a gift for minor my then wife and run into a guy by
name of joseph Sotelo from hell Okami, but he was also the head of the
Securities Division Arizona Corporation Commission
and he says, comes up to me, he says Roy, what are you doing back here in
Washington on this Liberty Bank or whatever it was called? Yeah. And I
said what do you mean? He says, don't he said don't you know who these
people are. And I said, well joe Haldeman and I named off the board of
directors and all that. He named his attitude guys and he said, well I
thought they were just consultants, you know. Yeah, I met him and he says
, well, jesus, because we've had him under investigation for six months
and where the Williams boys were on the commission at that time and they
were trying to two to suppress the investigation
anyhow. I said joe you've got to be joking. I got the senators on this
bank charter, I've got too much. So I told him how to put it together, I
got it off to Denver, it's on, it's back, it's back in Washington out,
I've got the senator his neck out on the line and say I know tomorrow's
christmas, but if you have to open your presence and do that, could we
meet again. And so we met and he told me the whole story.
So what we did was I got a number of attorneys and with joe's help, we
went and stole all the records from the Arizona corporation commission
involving this investigation, Seal them, you know, kept the chain record,
put him on, took him back to Washington and uh, turn it over to the
control of the currency, the FBI, a treasury department and then the ship
hit the fan. You know, God, then I was under investigation
and I know it was just a mess. I don't know. That's an interesting part of
your colorful career that I wasn't really aware of. How did, what was the
outcome? What happened? Oh, well
the day we turned over the records, if paxton, I think it was control of
the currency than under Kennedy. And he was the one of his Granting new
national charters around the country for the first time in 20 years or
something like that. Yeah. Hey al this is on his desk to be signed and I
got this in their lap if he was a day late getting back to time. So he had
had, I hadn't signed it and thank God because it was tied into the west
coast mafia and over to Switzerland and you know, they had pictures of joe
haldeman who was gay. You know, they had him and compromising
and walter Jenkins. Oh yeah, just you know, it was just a nightmare. And
so let's you know, I spend half my time with attorneys, you know because
we were senator. I was sued over that bank charter because they supposedly
Halderman was claiming I shake them down for friday and and everything
else and the senator and that's where I mentioned here in Canada. He said
he'd get me there because O'Connor Jim O'Connor handled all other lawsuits
and Kavanaugh and they
um
did a great job and we either got judgments on the pleadings or they were
thrown out of court and everything else. But it was a nightmare cuts as
soon as I announced that the lawsuit started having as soon as I announced
that I was writing, oh and while I was shooting here I thought I was
halfway nice guy and a man. But I think we even got sued for a total of 87
millions of dollars. And I remember walking down the hall with a senator
when it got up to around 25 million or something like that. And many said
senator, we've got to answer these complaints. Do you want me to get you
an attorney and I'll get an attorney or you want to use the same one and
and we were walking down that long quarter, don't towards the elevator to
go to the capitol. This is Roy, don't worry if you can't pay it. I will.
yeah. Just getting of course,
anyhow,
it's just this little uh
okay toward Yeah, well that's like saying, well, uh he went back to
Washington and you were uh senator said that he was joking on, he doesn't
have any money. Oh, money. So I got up to the same between, that's when I
got jim McConnell and cabinet to represent us and Jim O'Connor did most of
the work. So we got Judgment on the pleadings and they were thrown out of
court, but eventually I think total of some 87 millions of dollars. They
were also responsible for the car girl. I remember it was against me and
so those are the guys. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's an interesting I think
that I do want to follow up. I talked my clothes there, didn't, I could
get it on credit. Yeah. And I've got some of that down. Let me want to
follow up here and then we'll stop and take a break for a second. You want
a drink or something? I'm good. I need to show yourself
Dennis Deconcini in the comparative framework had to pay our money. He's
pretty tight. You know, he's a pretty tight. You know how tight he is.
That's kind of legendary. I'm learning even after ghost writing and stuff.
And how much did you have to pay to come out of your pocket? Did you Have
to spend money in this 63 64 case or Oh no they did it pro boner. Okay.
Hold it didn't cost the Senator Army. Okay, okay. All right, so that's an
interesting thing and a bad harry cabin novel maybe forward some of that
stuff forget something because you know Jim O'Connor died quite a long
time ago. Um No, do you know anything about one thing is that we're
getting to know Goldwater a lot better and we're driving down and what is
this one guy and he's kind of a prick on the other hand, you know his wife
is an alcoholic and he just kind of be able to the kids. Two of the kids
are on my board girl kind of screwed up and they seem to be in need of
money. I don't know how careful the guy he was. There was this one very
little water and another and repeatedly we have this collection called the
Rich Robertson collection. Just there's a guy named Dave Wagner. He
started doing some work on deal. Who was the real estate fraud guy? Deal.
Then Warren Warren some of that stuff and there's this guy is a former
Arizona Republic editor and he's now retired now he's going into this
stuff, you know his name is Dave Wagner, no one is more of a water guy
turned real right wing. Oh has it? I know, but this guy is looking at
someone
got all the, everything on the bulls killing and it looks like it's old
water or something like that. And they were very concerned about it now to
do anything about that. Anything about Goldwater become seem to think so.
He doesn't think that that should be in jail. Well I knew dawn. No, Don
Bowl was quite well and seen him just before he okay the explosion
and
I thought he was a hell of an investigative reporter and he was on to a
lot of stuff, you know involved in a, yeah, a retirement community meaning
the mom, you know organized crime. And of course they all sort of try to
put the blame on that on kemper Marley and it doesn't look like it's true.
No, I don't think so. And of course camper was a big friend of the
senators and he also supported my campaign but I really didn't know him
for that well. But the senator did. Senator didn't believe that he had
anything to do with it. But uh but I know that
you know when they had that team out here of all the reporters from around
the country, I was back in Washington but everyone was sending me
clippings of all the latest and I can tell you
uh they had, well I was in the Savoy but on a different apartment that
time back and I
was but I had a desk desk next to my bed and when I couldn't sleep her if
I didn't want to sleep. I get up and read and sit at the desk. I'm a
typewriter and I started reading some of these clippings
and I read one and chills went up and now my swine because it was name of
a person
who was from the purple gang in Detroit. I think it was. Yeah,
I
I had met his wife.
Sure you want this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was visiting my brother Dean when
he was head of the FBI in uh Nevada, there's a door in the sixties late
and
right um Anyhow, Dean took me to the airport and I was visiting and I was
flying on man's airline back to phoenix. Well I was the last one board an
airplane but just come in the next to the last game, gorgeous. Yeah,
dragging your a full length fur coat on a tarp back.
Well she went by my brother and I and and he said man that got someone
funny heaven anyhow. Uh huh. When I got on the airplane, the only seat
available was next to her. So between las Vegas and phoenix we got very
well acquainted and she gave me her phone number because I said maybe that
went someday I come back to Arizona frequently
and she did in the first time I called her um
she says where are you staying? And I was in Scottsdale discussed Elliot
or someplace. What's your room number? Mhm. He says I'll meet you there.
The wildest goddamn, I've never encountered anything like that. Just
incredible mess bodies. Affirm just she was a gymnast. I mean, again,
anyhow, this went on for, I don't know. Every time we came out. Well, then
I found out her, you know, she's married and her husband was he was an
older man, goddamn lobster. I can't. I got his name down somewhere, but I
read about that because his name was mentioned in connection with the
bulls singing all around and after What am I have been doing? You know,
you can kill, Yeah, put you on meat hooks. You know, things like that.
Well, that's that's interesting. I just we're tired of that, But, you know
, no direct ties with. All right. All right. Harry Rosenzweig or anything
like it was a false case. Yeah, No, I you should. And, uh, then you had
since you went to school. What was your relationship with him? What did
you think of? Was he a good, You know? Well, you know, we get further away
from him. He doesn't look his right wing. Well, he'll be booted out of the
party. Now, I know this crowd. You know, you know, he'd be drummed out of
the core being john Rhodes. They wouldn't have a chance in both of, uh,
but well,
you could not dislike barry was a very decent human being, I thought, and
the,
you know, our politics were different and has a list of senators and you
know, that. They were close friends and family and everything else, but i
it was
running against him, of course, I made a speech about that for the family
, I
think you've got a copy of that or something you should have. Uh it's like
,
well, you know, I tried to get him into debates or anything else, but it
was like running a good running against the Marlboro Man and the Grand
Canyon.
And of course johnson was, you know, that photo you saw, uh
he had me convinced because I went back with is gonna stop that war in
Vietnam for the election, you know, and get the hell out of there and they
had me convinced. But so when I decided a get talked into running the
second time, because the senator wanted me to try it again and I knew it
would be uphill against Barry, but we thought maybe if Lyndon was running
again. Well, that was the original plan back in 64 was we didn't think
Barry would get the nomination of the presidential nomination would to be
running against him. We could do to bury what he had done to McFarland.
Right. and so in 68 we was sort of some of the same theory was working,
but of course it was a different situation. And um but I
I was very fond of him, I can tell you a couple of things that
I didn't think that much of him as a senator. He wasn't a hardworking
senator, but he, uh, and I'll never have to give them for getting off the
interior Committee to go on armed services. Just that when we're ready to
go with C A P. And so the senator had to go on there as a junior member of
the committee, right? And Fannin was also on there and he got on there. So
,
and I was sort of in an awkward position at that time because ID against
Fannin. And
so I was attending all the meetings with Bannon as a senator. Yeah, Bannon
as a senator. And, and I didn't think paul was too swift and, but we, uh,
and you know, I was the chief negotiator for the old man. You know, he
gave had complete confidence in me and I, and I as you know from room,
some of the stuff I raise some hell and some of those meetings and you'd
also still test to this day. Oh, I know and well he wrote that letter to
the senator, you know about me saying I was even a genius. And, but I can
tell you this, those letters were all signed by car laden, not me. And you
read every word of it, he knew what the hell he was doing. That's one
thing you could never, even in his old age, would never enter it yesterday
, made it that man, he could look asleep and then come up with the most
coaching questions and penetrating just really
yeah, hey, I uh he after I lost to him, I thought,
and you know, I didn't had,
by the way, I did better than Macfarlane went down against him. Yeah, I
don't say that, but
I got to say everything I ever wanted to say. I mean during the campaign,
I just let it all hang out and just got to say everything I believed in.
And so it was fun. I had a lot of fun campaigning, but of course, see ape
was going on all that time and so I just get out here and start
campaigning and in the senator called me back and uh Red Davis or someone
and say you better get back here. And so I canceled and fly back to
Washington and I don't know. So it was just
mixed up campaign because I was always going back there, but after I lost
a very
uh
I didn't have a job, didn't have anything, you know, this is the way in
debt. And and I was trying to, some people with the hospital association,
we're trying to we're interviewing me and I had a was their first choice
and um anyhow, well they ran in accidentally to Darryl Coover remembered
girl had worked for Barry. Anyhow who sexuality shouldn't consider him
because he couldn't even get into Barry's office, you know, he wouldn't
help, you couldn't help your goddamn bit. Well, when I learned about it
and was told about it, I went to see Barry. I flew out from Washington. So
I'm out of this house. Okay. And I sat down and I said, very, if this is
the way you feel about me, I might as well have pulled up stakes and leave
the country, you know, do something because I want to stay in Washington
to can and you know, get out and start trying to make some money and stuff.
And I told him the storm, he said, well, he picked up the woman that
happened to be the National Republican woman Chairman in texas and called
her, uh, in my presence and said the most praiseworthy things about me. I
mean, it was just very nice. Oh yeah, it was a class act. And then he
called someone else and he said, Roy you know, you have access to any time
you would have seen me. He called me. And of course he has a big friend of
my brother and they lived in the same Westchester, they had their faces
out there and they parked next to each other in the garage out there. All
right. So, yeah, so,
but he and then when he was back there after that, any time I wanted to
see him when I was with the broadcasters and all that. Never any problem.
Good. In fact, you don't come by often enough. It's really very nice.
That isn't okay. Well, that's that's nice to hear about. Yeah,
just
I well, it was sort of a man's man and you kept him and he could drink a
lot could old man. Yeah. I think he could really talk to Jack the store
the other day and he says I went to see him and he had a mug of bourbon
during the hour. We were talking about srp stuff finished. He was like
unaffected. Oh yeah. Well yeah he had no problems putting him down in the
except like a lot of us he became invisible after a few you know
and of course women loved him and you know I'm sure. Yeah and Peggy was a
burden. Yeah. Just okay. Yeah.
Yeah
she was and she was a problem for him I think. Um interesting. Okay. I
I knew the sun I lobbied the son when he was in the house. He's still in
your goofy. Well he was on well you know coke and in his district there
and you know I got this from all that. They kicked him out of the country
club over there for always stuff out there in Woodland Hills and some of
the country club. He and he and Glenn Campbell look at kicked out of the
same place. Their party too much. Yeah. But he was barry Jr just wasn't
very bright at all and or where he was awfully confused. Or maybe a coat
got to him but there was no question. He was on you know you can see the
reptilian look,
the eyes caged. You know, just uh, I think he's doing better now. That's
what I understand.
He's, I think he's dry. I mean he's, he's actually know what a very nice
guy. He's a well meaning, he's a good soul. They've all been nice students.
I can't have no complaint. Is just that I finally assign someone else to
do to work with him. Okay.
As he was on our side anyhow, it was a waste of time. Um,
Now to the Arizona versus California, you're back there in 56. And I
talked with Curtis Jennings the other day about that. He told me what he
was doing that he's, it's funny now I testify as an expert witness before
Curtis on a water issue that's not really relevant here. But we've become
pretty good friends and he really appreciated the chance to work back
there and he was good. Yeah. Smart guy. He went to law school back there.
Yeah. Yeah. He said the senator. Yeah. Uh, and uh, there was uh, I don't
think you need to talk about the internal office workings here. But were
you aware of, did you ever meet Mark Wilbur and the Arizona group and all
that and what was your role? Well, at that time? Well, let me tell you,
can we take a break? You know, let's talk to you left off. Thank you. We
left off with the full water women loved him and Peggy was a burden
basically. Then we started on, you asked me about okay, okay good okay.
Mark Webber and it's very interesting. I just completed a section of
research. Haven't draft anything really on. They followed his governor and
he argues the Supreme Court case. What do you remember about that? I just
remember being back there and I don't know whether senator went over there
but I see That would have been what about 1956
56? Yeah, 50 55 56. 55. Yeah. See I came back with a senator in June of 55
right then and I first got with him in the 52 and was with him to the
middle of 53. Right? And
and I fought the korean war very valiantly over in Germany and France
about all the mo martin the left bank and the Riviera a
it was a hell of a war. But all I remember about uh Man coming back
because you got elected, you know, have to bury beat him in 52. He got
elected. And I think it was 54, Yeah, because and then he came back and I
remember being in the office. Okay. And you were there, you saw him? Oh
yeah I saw him but I didn't go over to the Supreme Court was getting a
seated, there was always a problem. Remember anything about that meeting
all other than he was keyed up and Uh huh she's worried nervous and he
stayed up. I found out he stayed up for the morning and memorized his
presentation. He had it down pretty pat. And of course
meg had sort of a funny way of talking. I mean it wasn't you know sort of
Oklahoma draw. Yeah but yeah I remember being there and I don't know you
know a bunch of them in from Arizona for that I think john p frank and
right uhh
and some wayne ache and people like that we're in for the the argument. I
don't know who else was there but very well in the office and I don't know
whether the senator went over that day or not. I don't think so because I
think someone was coming up in the floor. Uh huh But it was an important
day. It was an important event and in fact the fact that the upper basin,
what he was doing the argument to keep the upper basin out of case. Yeah I
remember that. Yeah but of course I don't think Arizona changed its
position yet. Not yet because the market was old jumpy frank. Yeah. Yeah I
know the guy chain got the silver. No, neither one charlie charlie charlie
charlie reading from Coolidge. Yeah no question about that he was the
brains behind it all and then okay tell me hey man charlie was you know
he's the one that choke together with me. Yeah so you got you formed a
pretty good relationship with him and he was kind of oh yeah man and you
know he was a wiry little cowboy with big thick glasses, you know they
look like you're looking through coke bottles and but tough and and you
know it was sort of a man of few words but when he started talking man you
could that mind was like a steel trap. Oh man he was, was he the litigator
or I think Wilbur was the voice voice. Yeah and and so it was um john p
did a lot of you know what the oil arguments of in san Francisco, they
were all in the act joe mansfield from humor was one of the best. Okay.
And
but charlie, I know when, yeah,
when we were getting expecting
the Supreme Court decision, you know and I was out here with Bill Guqin
and charlie Reid and we flew back to just before the trip that he choked
to death uh Bill did all the water engineering. I did all the politics and
the memorandum and charlie did you know the Lagos stop okay and I did the
political stuff and and then we were out here, I know I was out here for a
week with them, we stand up all night getting ready and then we all flew
back to Washington together and stayed there over to jefferson hotel, had
a sweet over there and
so when uh
charlie, the senator had a great confidence in charlie handbill google.
You know we sort of made them but we have problems with the Interstate
stream commission. Of course we have problems with the power authority and
you know we would seem like that's all we did was fight. There wasn't any
unity harmony in this delegation. Then of course we had our quarrels with
Stuart because senator felt he had I lied to him because he had promised
to report on a simple C. A. P. You know big basin wide trade off deal.
Yeah and in question, all they did was glue that together. You know if I
had a make up most of it was stuff suede California. Well not only that
but also. Well yeah I have my own suspicions that there were other reasons
involve telling these guys anybody. Yeah. You know political Kennedy's
political sure ambitions but didn't want to alienate California and all
that. But we talked about that before. Um But I
I was gonna tell you what when I
became the senator's new allies
starting in about 58 I would say I started reading our files on the Cd LP
and all that stuff and and
and Then this 60's came along and I used to me regularly with by name. Uh
huh. Good rich too much isblack