The times of the civilizations that went into the desert.
So if it costs the story for the morning look at there was 6000 years and
its value
problem seems to me that again, because the 6000 years is exactly it's
nothing but that. But that doesn't mean that we since we're social in
existence a riddle. No question is that if the process can be carried on,
then all these things are going to become very relevant and they're going
to explain themselves and they're going to have a very specific clear
niche by which they see themselves as part of this process. Maybe I
remember attribution.
Mm hmm. I think you're very proud. I think we're a long way in the future.
We will get I think this particular center in the next one will be a very
they were trying as I accept a long way in the future, but that I don't
find this car. Yeah. But after all, it's not going to happen. We don't
know what's going to happen because the little Bieber I couldn't believe
that this is where he would have an evidence. It's a there was an
incapacity double creature to imagine that something more than its own
reality would ever exist. So we should never realize them to be humble
enough to realize that as your neighbors of today, we cannot really
pretend to know that that's a pie in the sky since we we better perhaps
have a different fate. My metaphor, but the result of a class in which had
failed in itself. I think the last 6000 years are not that significant. I
think particularly if we take our venture seriously because we are here to
build and perfect yet another container, yet another instrument through
which we think human spirit will be nurtured and developed. And if so the
last 6000 years are immensely important for it is taking two of them that
we look at ourselves for it is during the last 68, 10,000 years, 6000
years that civilizations have been nurtured and developing in the cities.
And therefore infer our metaphor is that history is Evolution of matter
from matter to super matter by appropriate instruments. Those instruments
during the last 6000 years were cities. And if these 6000 years are not so
important venture maybe not important. And since our adventure is
important, therefore, I conclude that the addition ones that is like the
last 6020 years. Very important. I it's not a matter of not being
important. I think I think that's probably an extreme statement that it's
not important. The thing is that you see the it's hard to be in the middle
of a system and see where it's going. And that's what we are. It's hard
for us to know that right now we're orbiting in three different directions
and we've recently discovered that the whole Milky Way Galaxy is moving at
a million miles an hour in some direction besides all the other officer
and we sit here and we feel very stable because we don't see all that
because
consciousness is a divine attribute
and be aware that perfection. But it's it's really not. Then then I'm
asking myself why do I have the right to be consciousness? And that cliff
doesn't have to be conscious. So eventually
consciousness has to be, there's an ethical basis. Again, it's justice and
it's justice in terms of the ultimate super condition which was just
symphony
because symphony is anticipating. The anticipation is a practical of this
community which makes technology as well. But
the chinese technology of the creature called the technologies of the
instrumentation, which pathology
also also
really I mean this is where to cover everything I did what we do with this
technology a physiologist. Technology to
my my logician again is in his protesting. If we have determined it is
such a large area that it covers everything, it is probably empty of
meaning.
It is something that goes through me which takes care of all the processes
that need to be taken care of and of which I am not aware. It's a
technology of the flesh.
Technology, I'm sorry, it's my technology
twisting my semantic
because he is not and because the demand would not create the perfect.
That's right. But yet later who said that. Well, first of all, each
moment has to be a divinity and kind consciousness and divine attitude and
that they do. We are saying about the southeast and the airport, we must
have some divinity training and Mhm.
That's alright,
perfection,
perfection. My my response is that motion is a beautiful invention. What
we have to be tangible.
Congratulations
to reach up stamps to develop itself into a grown up full fledged divines
of. So there's no contradiction. The condition is believing it is a very
broad creature that has the need of making ambulances all to itself.
Yeah,
thank
you.
Yeah.
You
know he asked me a question and then we got into a discussion about some
of the things that dr Bruce asked. But he mentioned the thing about now
that we have all this great technology and so on. All this information
stacked around. We have nothing to say. And I wanted to make a small
comment on that point of view.
We we certainly have a lot to say and what we have to say is that
evolving around us is something that we are all becoming aware of. And as
we become aware of it, we participate in it. And what is it? Well, it's
the fact that there is a better kind of an existence for the kind of
uneven as we are or something we evidently have some kind of awareness.
Maybe it's just ability kind of thing or something that it is possible
that there is something beyond where we are that we could participate in.
That would be better. You know that might be a little more fulfilling or
something. I think that's what motivates a lot of us. That's why we create
environments and things. Otherwise, what's the alternative, the
alternative is to say there isn't anything. And so if there isn't anything
, why bother? Why don't we lay down our tools and not playing much the
influence of future? We have to have a commitment and I think ingrained in
us as some kind of a commitment. So one of the tools we have to gather
data is the computer and the computer with a computer. We've taken all
this information dr Bruce talked about and it's been almost irrelevant.
It's just information that information is useless. But gradually, if you
can take information and make it available in different arrays, if you can
take all the possibilities that may exist that affect a particular action
, you can start doing things with information that is creative. And
certainly now that is one of the things that technology, one of the things
that modern computerization can do and it's taking information and
presenting it to us and doing it for us and giving us then the freedom and
the opportunity to be creative with it. We used to be so busy accumulating
the darn stuff, you know, that we were exhausted by the time we got to
accumulate and had no time to use our creative powers to try and force it
together into a synthesis and that the computer is doing all of the
tedious calculations for us now in our Children go to school. They want to
learn. They don't have to add things anymore. They can push a little
pocket computer and get their answers so on. And so quickly we do have
available something we can do the tedious kind of routine sort of in the
past human kinds of actions. Mhm. For us to free us to present to us
information and allow us to use that information freely and creatively in
terms of moving ourselves ahead to something that's higher synthesis and a
little more fulfilling than what we have today. So because I talk because
I'm an advocate of technology because I'm in it and so I feel I feel like
followed us do that. You know, maybe maybe computers is a mutation and
maybe that mutation will die through the process of evolution and time
will tell. It may very well be that nature evolution is very inefficient
sometimes. And some mutations just absolutely don't work out. Maybe the
computers of dinosaur And maybe give or take another 100 or 200 years.
People look back and say wow, what a nightmare. That was maybe not. The
only room we find that out is to work it through and give it a chance.
Watch it through time. See if it does become a valuable tool. It may or
may not. That's the way it goes.
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
More and more benefit supplying the society. These things have a heart
technology
society false news, creating more focus
going on this play. And I would like to hear Henry. They are related. Well
, moment. Okay,
Celtics praise for a moment. Mhm We'll have to be careful when it tries to
represent other people I think. And representative means mm shovel of our
existence. So for another open kind of third world nations, I'll probably
don't have it myself. True. I think that there is a great deal of
ambiguity and confusion among Third World nations for they are all
mesmerized by the power of our budget. And this is the condition of all
human beings in this world. Somehow our propaganda. The images we have
predicted are so powerful that even if they have best reasons to somehow
resist our goodies, they are irresistibly drawn to them. And this is
something that is that defies logic. I just proposition number one,
Proposition # two which really is colonnades with the first one that it is
not only adults but Children who are already influenced by our conception
of Life, wealth and technology for it seems that even among 3rd world
nations were uh information technology has reached them. They have tv and
other things when kids are asked to draw their home their house,
invariably they come up for the kind of Colombian filled with two car
cultures. It is really incredible taking into account their culture. Well
, I think that the answer very much depend on who you talk to. I think
people who have done best in africa particularly are the Tanzanians And
they tried various, they started first accepting everything that we have
offered them, starting with medicine, high power medicine uh consultant
specialists. And they found that the main hospital was devouring 90-95% of
their resources, of the medical resources Of 95% of the financial
resources for medicine. And then found that only 3% of people I could use
it. So they really change the media now. They have gone very much along
chinese lines. Uh small units in every village than bigger units in
districts And still bigger units in bigger districts and one simple
hospital. I mean just uh case medical care is really available to help us
everybody and I would have to talk for quite a while in order to show how
in spite of the fact that they're uh personally is not right for they take
often people with fifth or sixth grade education between the age of 14 and
16 and for four years, they really
conditioned them to a very narrow way of recognizing certain diseases And
they become very expert at recognizing certain from the diseases. All the
the medical knowledge is very small as the result they can recognize most
current diseases in about 5-7 minutes. While it takes well trained doctors
12-14 minutes.
But there is another reason they are not well trained and therefore they
do not have high aspirations beyond what they accomplished. So the basic
education is
you may say. And then on the top of it specialization and they are very
happy to be of use is really turning tables altogether. And recently they
have done it with their education. They have found it following what was
best in education. They have been training their people to do very
abstract, very specialized tasks which are of little use for their country.
And then they went back to combine work education with work. And then
finally they have tried to recreate they're old cultural pattern by
introducing ritual dancing, singing as a part of education as a part of
total upbringing. And in this way I think implicitly required departed
with the most specialized with most sophisticated goodies we can provide
them with. Is he? I think that history will tell us which departures are
correct. But just thinking about the computer. I was asking myself. All
right, given all the resources all the time. I have a number of other
people have let us try to make computer the most compassionate the most
humanistic instrument we want to make of it. How would we go about it?
We'll probably go by trying to read my new functions for it. Trying to
find our most precious assets in thinking most difficult problems in
solving and probably will try to redesign the whole beast according to
different clients because it will not economic uh arithmetic operation
that will be of importance. But there's more analysis tasks and as a
result, we may have come up with something quite different than the
computer reflecting our values and their goals. And consequently I still
insist that there is a certain value scared building the computers the
value of the quantitative world, the value of yes, no answers. The value
of those things that make efficiency great in industry and make our
quantitative economics work. But those other values have not been proven
particularly if you take the last 10 years and the promises
dutch for computers, they were both going to be the greatest chess
channels. We're going to talk to us better than Shakespeare. We're going
to acquire linguistic capability. I think that those more subtle task
already now off the agenda, the promise has not been fulfilled those
things that would make them more interesting as a human analog. And
consequently if I were about designing the task for them, I might have uh
ended up with altogether different instrument so different that the
computer might not apply. And this would be creating new technology not by
trying to infuse New course two existing technology by trying to create
new technology according to new goals and values. And I think that if the
Third World nations for little, they might have operated on this option.
My answer is already long gone now. But what is happening in third world
nations is the realization that some of the newest implement that we
brought to them have catastrophic results. For example, the introduction
of our class and other devices and consequently in order to progress, they
go back by by reinventing a medieval tools which brings them back to to a
certain wholeness of their ecological habitats and enables them to evolve
in any way by respecting what is immediately given to them and going with
nature, not against it. You're playing all the right time, you know, which
evidently is very essential. But you're not talking. Yeah. You're really
rejecting technology. You're saying that technology is to be appropriate
naturally. Technology nobody can inject that everything has to be public,
even a monster with a appropriateness. Yes, I think do I follow you
through the computer thing after a point and I agree with you. But then
they said that the computer is failing the commissioner thing is just
developing. I think in terms of predictions made some 15 years ago, at
this at this age time the computers will do this and that quite confident
and arrogant predictions
will become but that doesn't mean the computer which is not just a piece
of machinery that you and I that we are compassionate by definition of
arrogant by definition. We are disappointing. No, but there's evidence
that it
is. It's less than that, you know, it's been blue more like 20 years that
people have been using computers at what at that time, the use of it's in
its infancy really. The use of computers is in its infancy. And we're
certainly evolving right now to where we can address computers with the
human voice for example and maybe do some of the things you're talking
about. But I'm not searching for anything in the computer world. I don't
think anybody is with the tools of mankind to take over and do for us our
creative thinking. There's absolutely no attempt to do that. It's quite
the contrary. It's to provide us with tools just as we have tools here
today to make it make it more optimum for us to do creative thinking. Well
, I'm delighted with this new modest approach and Reprisal of computers,
capacity in handling it all for there was about 10 years ago, six years
ago and inferior that sure there was precisely and consequently you can
really pick up statements and they showed you that in 2030. Yes, I'm
totally dispensable. That's not the fault of all the computers people. I
think I'm making a very interesting point. The presumption was based on
the anticipation of certain capacity of the tool and then we found the
capacity of the tool was lacking and consequently it was perhaps not the
arrogance of the people but lack of realization that instrument was not
made for certain purposes with which it was endowed such as chest plane
which requires much more than any population. It seems to me that again we
are, we are short uh, The development potential in the second assured we
don't know what the computer eventually can be. Uh, 50 years from now. So
we will have an old name. I'm sure really admit that automobiles the first
couple of years they probably made statements about you know how great
with time and 1000 miles an hour or something. But then there's the
practical world of getting there. I think humanist tends to do that. I
think it happened that it does that we see things, we try to see things
make a hit and then reach for it. That's how it thinks. You see, I want to
invent the computer which Crosby on computer and the first thing I want to
drop his computer, it has to do with computation. I want to have analog
for human genius and I'll call them general tests. Yeah. And I think if
you start with this premise you have an altogether different scenario and
you mentioned in passing the automobile, I think this may be a good and
useful example for the attainable in spite of its 60 years did not improve
beyond its original premise. If anything it brought about certain
unresolved agony, signal disasters. So it has to be careful in saying that
all technologies will perfect themselves and deliver something that was
not religion in them.
Henrik I'd like to ask a computer statement said Western technologies
designed as an instrument of furthering Western values. How would you
respond to the cool inside
electronics really needs tranquilizing plan And it's a fundamental change
muslim society First for me not to what is already Mhm And tribalism I
think was a good slogan. And I think that when we look at the rate with
which many cultures have been wiped out, we really don't want to try
belies the planet because stabilization means home organization in Western
patterns means really extinguishing many culture of making them so much
like ourselves. The distinction and uh specific set of cultures and
diversity of cultures disappear. Are we like our schools? Yeah, hold on.
Well that's a good question. But I think that that terrible ization
through electronic media really meant homogenization of other civilization
culture into Western image. And I think that we are now becoming wiser and
not to try to do it. And indeed we are trying to make ourselves like other
culture more less homogeneous market. Virginia's more diverse, less linear
and perhaps more inconsistent than the book. Yeah, yeah. Which one do you
hear me understand her? To a plenty
well it was creating a convolution.
Mm We see it was printing another one of those technologies which allowed
the mind of Man two to develop itself. I think it was the latter when I
think about the first printings and when I think about some libraries in
which some of the great books are still preserved. And I have specifically
one image in mind Merton College Library at Oxford, one of the first
libraries It was establishing 14 53 or something and there are some 14th
century and 15th centuries volumes still chained as they were to the world.
And when you look at it you thought my goodness, how poor they were. They
had some 4050 books all chained big volumes. However, when you look at the
content was Aristotle, there was requirements, there was played for the
greatest books you can have together and consequently volume was small.
But the content was great and I think that that complaint came about it
was the bible and the greatest book that were ever written that went into
printing and consequently it was the distribution of wisdom, not mere
information we have the book. The book is not is not wisdom. The book is
that device through which distributes the question was, is the electronic
technology evil as in constant of the technology of the printing. Which is
I don't know whether it's Evelyn, I deliberately restrained myself from
you in those terms. Technologies, bad
evil and all that. But okay, okay, let's be clear about it. I have always
said to my insistence that there are certain values built into those
technologies built into
the media. Is the message brought into them. But and express the weapons
and scale of values of the dominant culture and one has to be very careful
analysis. Well, actually it is mutual, it is very free. It can be used by
anybody for any purpose. So if you find it invariably there are only
certain purposes, certain goals that are being distributed with it. You
must really question your assumption that it is mutual and very free. You
must really ask yourself whether it is not in the nature of the tool being
devised by a sudden take the book. The book was an instrument for the very
knowledgeable and very previous to carry on the north edge and appeals
were looking at material plus windows and they were told that the books
were saying this is the so it was monopolizing no way of going about times
but acknowledged. It's also maybe you could say well the technology of the
book at the beginning was that but that doesn't mean that the book was,
was a way of multiple or monopolizing knowledge. And I would say the same
thing for the technology. It was certainly used to monopolize knowledge
and they will reveal between those who could read and track and those who
couldn't. And this was the class division and then every possible
deficient. And I think I was a bit cautious and kg because with books like
with other cultural artifacts they have many days and the answer is not as
simple because of the one hand, like the cathedral, it was a way of
somehow coercing people to accept that most of the church
here it was ground where have gone but on the other it was a very
different uh subliminal kind of aesthetic and transcendent and spiritual
education. And I cannot say that that was just a tool of domination of the
oppression of the people. Which it was but they are transcendental
purposes that were both into it. Somehow transcended to parallel was
between the book which seems to be acceptable and the cloning device which
seems to be less acceptable. I don't know whether I can find the book
acceptable nowadays. Yeah.
Well if you look at the history of the book though, through 400 years or
so, I think you would agree with the idea that it's brought to us. Uh huh
Information and knowledge and this first view points and so on. And
generally speaking has been a constructive force. Yeah. Wouldn't you think
that that the invention of printing and
has brought overall a constructive force. But I am in a rebellious spirit
this evening. And so I can go out and express my uh a selection against
any proposition. And I think we should people in the audience stop because
you're
they came to express their We have only a few more minutes unless we want
to go quite late in the evening. Which means also getting pretty cold.
Yeah. So maybe
a three voices from the audience so that they can house up uhh
I have a question to ask
said that
mm hmm. Cosmos or whatever is moving towards a state of perfection.
Earlier and earlier discussion with our seminar you said that
the universe is not a stable or a steady state. Which is which is
aesthetic. But it is a dynamic process is not being as I'm becoming it's
becoming right. But if if and when this state of perfection comes about
this would be a static state. Put it now. I mean it wouldn't be dynamic
anymore. It would be stop. We stopped there and wouldn't go anywhere well
and
model remarkable beginning.
Mhm
Yeah. Mhm You're in person. What?
Oh
called more curious. Mhm Oh, bye here.
So you did
Well, problem there. Uh huh
It has assumptions
right? Is that? Mhm
No.
Mhm don't have it. No. Final.
Not able to do what this Well, yes.
Okay. The disadvantage. What
And here we have
scott.
Yeah. Hold
Yes. Thank you.
Have you
community with that condition like grabbing diplomacy's
it's like saying that I uhh We get married. We can see we would like us to
imagine what the baby we're going to make is going to behave 20 years from
now. Well, we can imagine but we don't have we don't have a performance.
So we can already say the baby is doing this and this and this very well
try to do this and this and this. But since it's not there for the moment
, we are, the best we can do is to conjecture and try to be very sensible
conjecture.
Okay,
yeah,
fashionable long.
I try.
It's like it's like but that comes we come back to the prophecy that could
become so fulfilling. I don't I don't pretend to to prophetess, but it's
in the same kind of frame of reference. If you believe enough in something
and you struggle enough to realize this this which is I thought this has
become could become a reality
and science it tends to to accept places.
Mhm. They have their statements from size that morley safer
truth is not so much what is there, but what we are going, what we're will
willing what we we are going to bills
bye election. Truth is our world. Ladies and gentlemen, yeah,
there's a couple of people in this production. I'd like to thank Kathleen
Cafe, you know, her guests, Chartier, Henry Poole objectively called You
can call the gas.
Thank you and people involved this building. Some of them are
thanks.
Yeah.
Mhm.