turned out to become kind of a floating panel is known around the festival.
Is the jazz pants. Originally they were really true, but the one
yesterday afternoon uh, was kind of collapsed into this one. Neither of
the panels have very specific topics. One was uh, trends in jazz today and
the other was musicians lives. Uh, I thought perhaps that we could sort of
combine those two and maybe also address ourselves in. Yeah. To some of
the very broad uhh general questions that have been raised at some of the
very good and very interesting panel discussions here about art and the
environment, about aesthetics and theology and whether they can be
reconciled. And also there was a topic yesterday Animal mostly consisting
of architects discussed that one and that was excellence and commitment.
Now I think that in the music which for lack of a better term is known as
jazz and somehow or other, that seems to be the words that we always come
back to. Uh, over the years, many substitutes have been introduced, but
somehow that's a tenacious little four letter word. It may not be awarded
with the world's most distinguished pedigree in the sense of it's suppose
that original meanings, but it has gathered enough glory to itself. I
think in the last 100 years or so for us to wear it proudly in any case
that music, in that music, excellence and commitment, I think have always
been taken for granted and perhaps too much so because and no other music
did I know is the musician
so clearly making a commitment every time he plays because when he plays
foreign audience or for himself, that's him or her out there, it's laying
it on the line. It's in that sense, a very naked music and therefore also
very vulnerable. And as somebody said yesterday, I think Richie Bayrak
ephemeral in nature and yet despite of that it has achieved in a
relatively short time. Uhh some of the greatest artistic creations of our
time. Indisputably, I think. Anyway, we have a distinguished panel here
and uh, we may be joined by one or two others as we go along. The time for
this has been floating. I guess they figured it was a jazz panel. So we
should keep it loose and get an improvisatory quality into it. You can
read biographies of most of the distinguished people at this table uh, in
your program and because we only have an hour, I don't think I want to go
into lengthy biographical sketches that would keep us here for a long time.
But uh, Dave Liebman and Richie Barreca here at Arcosanti for the third
time, which speaks for itself. And those of you who were lucky enough to
hear them play together last night, I don't know why they're here. Uh,
they have both. Uh, they've been friends for a very long time and have
played together for a long time and you can tell and individually they
played work together a lot individually. David has worked with Miles,
which has been with stan Getz among others. But again, if I were to go
down the whole trip. Ah Their credentials are impeccable. Um, Professor
thomas Ferguson is director of Jazz studies at Arizona State University.
He is a recent transplant to this state when I first met him, was at Notre
dame Intercollegiate Jazz Festival many years ago and he was leading a
band from Memphis, which is forever embedded in my memory because of the
festival that had some very good bands. That was the only man that was
really swinging. And since then, uh Tom and I have crossed paths a number
of times. He is a member of the National Endowment for the Arts Jazz
Advisory panel and he's also a hell of a piano player. Uhh are not party.
I hope you heard yesterday at the, the presentation we did with Freddie
waits of Bernard Party to make a a long story short is the king of soulful
drummers and an extraordinary gentleman. Uh I think maybe what we, I want
to start out with us, maybe to talk a little bit about this situation of
jazz today and Well, Richie, why don't you start you? But
well, I was saying yesterday,
I think that talk about the seventies, which are at the end of it has been
a, a synthesis period of synthesis where a lot of the influences of world
music, indian music african music, classical music, rock and roll,
everything has been kind of synthesized into different combinations. When
we call this fusion some people call it confusion. Yeah. Uh It's produced
some very good music
and it really has strong roots in the past. If you think about latin jazz
fusion in the forties and fifties with dizzy Gillespie and chano pozo
Machito Tito puente. That has very strong roots and that's a very strong
case to make for
thinking about fusion in terms of a progress situation rather than return
also ah fusion of classical music and jazz which never really might bring
and can go off so called third stream
attempt is happening more now what's kind of happening in a much more
natural way where there's a give and take between classical and classical
musicians and jazz musicians where sometimes you can't tell who's who you
know and I think that's a good thing
you have a lot of people approaching like from the institutions and
academies approaches and taylor and they asked him for a score and he says
there's no score. I just played it you know
I think that what's happening now is is really coming to an end. I think
most of the great fusion bands of the seventies are split up and over
there's been a return to acoustic music. People like john Mclaughlin and
Henry Hancock V. S. O. P. A lot of standout electric bands are coming back
to playing acoustic music again I think it's a really good sign it's
healthy there will always be fusion music, They always be jazz. It's a
question of when they come together. I particularly think that the
eighties and nineties, not just in music but in the general feeling in the
world will be a time for more innovation in the seventies. I haven't seen
any real innovations in the sense of charlie parker and john Coltrane and
great conceptual genius is appearing on the scene. They might be around,
but I haven't I haven't seen them, you know.
Thank you. Rich. Uh huh. Tom you have
of course, as in terms of James, education quote unquote. Mm most of our
students are in the imitative processes. We're very much interested in
what the great players are doing and recording with that. We're at the
mercy, so to speak. Um
I'd be curious because I do not live in new york, I'd be curious and their
feeling of the
has the rise of the commercial fusion thing hurt your cause so to speak in
the new york areas,
I think in new york. No. Mhm. Yeah. Hello,
mm hmm. Okay, I know this is a and the question is whether from town and a
commercial fusion thing has hurt our cause. I'm assuming you mean a
because of pure jazz. Yeah, new york happens to be rid of a few places. It
seems to me that can hold all types of music and still keep a very active
audience and an active population of musicians involved in that music. So
in a sense that fusion music has been a very popular media event and has
created a lot of sand as an interest in jazz. Um, I don't think that that
result because in new york because actually what's occurring in new york
and if you've been there lately and are interested in jazz, I think you
would notice obviously if you look at people like the village voice any
given week and you have 234 pages of clubs besides separate promotional
concerts, at least 3 to 5 concerts per weekend, large concerts and large
holes and you have these two or three pages when really, uh, number five
or six years ago, it was a half a page if I recall and that shows
something right away. And then all of these places for the most part,
about 85% of everyone symptoms large percentage are acoustic jazz and not
just acoustic jazz but be bob, I mean, guys playing tunes, you know, old
tunes, new tunes, all kinds of stuff, but uh, an amazing amount of
interest in that. And I think it's basically when the music for that is
because that music has settled into becoming something that you kind of go
and live with, You don't necessarily go this special concert out of it so
much as you might have 10, 15, 20 years ago when it was the million music.
Now you're going to declare that you might have dinner and art farmer
could be playing. And that's not a reflection on our farm to on that music.
It just means it's kind of seeped into a place in our lives where it's at
least in a place like new york where it's really part of what goes on and
I don't think it will ever be endangered by any trend or lack of trends.
Uh It's something, especially in new york from living on the west coast. I
will say that it's quite different on the west coast, especially in Los
Angeles of places, but we didn't get into that. Mhm. Ever? Well I would
say hello, hello, hello. Hi. I would like to elaborate on what he just
said about new york because I am in new york and I live in new york. And
in the last two years the music scene has changed drastically. Whereas we
now have live music in almost 60%
of the clubs in new york city, basically we have roughly 3000 clubs in new
york city. I happen to know because I work with look later too almost.
But uh we basically have about 3000 clubs that could hold live
entertainment now two years ago, it was mostly records because it was
cheaper. People didn't get out and they spend most of their money within
their homes, bind markets. Then today we have more and more people going
back out again to listen to live entertainment.
Not only are they listening to live entertainment, but they're buying
records, but buying media for record buying has men from the age of 15
through 21 for as they call the rock and roll air. But it has stretched
out to where it's called Good Music from the ages of 15 to 35.
And then you have between the ages of 25 45 they're going back to buying
as we call it that will always be here jazz but it is commercialized. That
is commercialized to one degree that everybody is getting a chance to
understand feel what the artist is trying to feel and yet getting it to a
point where they can understand it and that was the hardest problem that
we had 20 years ago. Everybody just didn't understand jazz. But now today
it's being, it has been put together to where the commercialism can work
on both parts, where can help the artists and the artists not have to
starve to death and also get across to the people what they want to say
without being hurt and what I've done so far back as to say, hey man,
doing nothing but a lot of notes. But basically now he's doing good music
which has always been and if we would use those titles as good music, we
never have to worry about anything. Jazz will be here for the rest of our
lives and it will be anyhow. But I really like to say that new york is
jumping.
I'm so glad, I'm so glad
I protest against that last remark.
Sure, uh, I'd like to introduce Freddie waits whom I hope uh, number of
you met yesterday at the percussion demonstration. Uh, again, I don't want
to give a long biography, but Mr weights is a phenomenal multi
percussionist
and a faculty member at Livingston College at Rutgers University. Get rid
of what we're talking about the situation of the music today in general.
Mhm,
Okay, I don't know what's being said, but the situation in new york city,
I think, well, I was speaking on, uh, I think there are some very good
things happening now. I think that's the end of this conversation. He did
say a couple of things that I definitely agree with was the fact that
music is definitely coming back into new york. And to really follow that
statement. I don't think it really have a lot of new york city, it was
always happening in new york, it was just the other part of the world. We
see people in the rap for that, that's new rack. And then after new york
you in California all this time, who doesn't exist, You know? So I think
uh, move fast, we're doing a lot of traveling across the country. I found
that black people in every part of this country that has always been very
interested in jazz, quote unquote, uh calling me real jazz again, We had a
confidence about two summers ago in Bennington College in Vermont, I was a
part of where it was a total scheduled, in fact, should the name be
changed from jazz to what I don't know, it was several different names
mentioned why, but the fact is that the whole meeting resolved to the fact
that if you did that we suffered the consequences of possibly losing
people who have really grabbed ahold of eternal jazz as their whole thing
and philosophy about the music. So I think it was done resolving to each
individual within himself, would have to deal with it on his own personal
level as to how he felt the music was to him, if it was jazz, it was
created for whatever or whatever they want to call it. But yet in terms of
media, the world, jazz would still stay out. I mean there are various
reasons of course, given why he did not want to use the word jazz and not
have it made sense. A lot of them didn't, but in the, in the case we
really believe that if we change that name, which could be done, it took a
lot of work, but the people done, we could actually real ourselves because
of the fact that people have really grown so attached to the word itself
and we're leading it to certain people and to the whole idea of the music
situation, I think that one thing that has helped jazz music today is the
fact that people are gonna uh tom Ferguson Martinson Liebman and via Iraq
are now coming out speaking to people as yourselves and telling them the
problems and the things that we're actually dealing with on a business
level or social level and a musical level in our musical careers, we found
that people are actually sympathetic to those things and they want to
respond to them is the fact that they are not aware of the certain things
that are happening and why certain things are happening. Uh once people
informed the react, a lot of those reactions have been very positive. I'm
happy to say. And myself, young people in the universities and colleges
across the country are very responsive to these things. It's just that
they are not informed. A lot of information given to them is false
information. People like ourselves have been giving them the route to
correct information. Where can you find the right thing, what is actually
happening? We are writing the right reviews who are reviewing things as
they should be. And uh I think if you begin to listen to these people,
especially the people that I know this panel really covered up with
wonderful ideas and ways to help you get to the services of what's
happening with the music. I think of the continue to grow, not only in new
york but the rest of the world and the rest of the country as well.
Um, mm hmm, One of the, oh, obvious things to 0.2 about this place here,
Arcosanti is that it is the city of the future, so to speak. Uh, I think
for that reason it's very good and very heartening that jazz has been part
of the programming here from the start because it's jazz in a sense is the
urban music incarnate. And of course, uh, the question of the environment
in which the music we often had to grow up and which in some part is a
reason for some of those misconceptions that people have about the word
jazz for instance, about it. It's supposed origins uh, in New Orleans, uh
, in the red light district, which is nonsense because it was played all
over the city and by no means even played mostly in that particular
environment. But it's, you know, last night I was thinking how marvelous
it is to be able to hear, to find jazz artists perform in a setting like
this, you know, under the sky and then a beautiful place like this. Uh,
whereas for so many, many years the music was very often confined too
smoky nightclubs and to uh, other kinds of environments which were not
conducive, it's the amazing thing about this music is that in spite of
this and other people who created it had the tremendous, uh, you know,
strength and any resources to, you know, to do it in spite of my life, of
course it was also played in ballrooms, there's nothing wrong with
ballrooms that can be a very nice environment, but it's, you know, it's
about time that the music was brought out and is being brought out uh into
the open, so to speak, into clear air and uh I think maybe some of the
analysts might have some ideas about that. Today, can you do, can you
support yourselves essentially by doing concert work and clinics and so on
? But do you still have to work in clubs? And do you want to keep on
working in clubs?
That is David? Mhm. Well, I think especially on this panel is that we are
an assortment of the real musicians about the living. Um I would venture
to say that I don't know anybody sitting here make their living sorry from
one activity and music would seem to me, so uh after that, as a matter of
how many we have to keep together, how much money we want to make and how
much you need. But the thing about clubs is that to me, the ideal
situation isn't playing in all kinds of situations, environments when it
is the festival environment, which is what this is out there, especially
when we played downstairs, which is uh at the scene, that's one particular
way and one effect on the music um playing with a concert here like an
avery fisher and a some kind of fun of setting is another kind and then
the club is another kind and then the creator was yet another. So
everyone's different situations and a couple of mothers clinics, even
another situation because you're playing for students. So it's different
than playing for a regular audience, entertaining. So any situations are
really good and I hate to give up the clothes because think about the
clubs is that's where the musicians really stretch out. It seems bad and
large. Um, this from my experience and listening that I was learning the
music,
an artist like john Coltrane. Um well Miles Davis and I think it can be
attested to now by the number of releases from live situations which were
not released released and trans case when he was alive, the kind of
intensity and experimentation or whatever you wanna call it, that's going
on only seems to really happen in a consistent level in the club because
of the atmosphere, the ambiance, the fact that it is loose and the fact
that you really have usually three sets that makes quite a thing because
playing jazz is uh
may be different too the man musician, but for a musician it seems to me
it's, and that's a very kind of physical act. Uh it's not getting up in
the morning, you go through your day, you know, playing is getting on a
stage, getting into into your instrument for that day, how much you
practice. They didn't practice getting a feel for the real and the sand
the other musicians to particular music of the night of course that it
takes a certain amount of time every minutes, maybe hours maybe live. Uh
huh It goes on and on and usually died at the 2nd and 3rd set of man is
starting to feel a moose on a night to night basis. Found in the bands
that I've worked with when they break night tonight, their neighbor most
advances in the animation of that band's music by the end of a few weeks
of ranking. So situation that's idea if you're a musician to control the
shots fast record situation is to have some big concerts will make the
brand you play for a lot of people, but some small clubs where it's a good
club, good sound, good equipment and they can really get close to the
other positions into the people.
Well, as far as, as far as living in new york and that that's right.
Living living in new york and trying to earn a decent living without
really doing too much that you don't want to do when I started playing bar
mitzvahs and weddings when I was 14, 15, the Catskill mountains in new
york playing for strippers and seeing us in higher stories and old male
bars, that kind of stuff. I think I think that uh even though I hated what
I did it. I think it was very important. It's kind of like a trial by fire
, you know, it's very important to have as much varied experience in music
and, you know, some really basic things about projecting, it doesn't
matter what you're playing to a hostile audience, to a an audience that
wants to see the stripper rather than he play competing with people
drinking and eating. It's it's an ordeal, but it makes you strong in a
certain way. So that when you do have the opportunity to have a quiet
audience in a magnificent setting like this, it's really uh because of
what you deserve it, you feel right about it and you make the most of it
because you don't have to uh put yourself in a pressure situation. Ah Mhm.
For me, it's I was very lucky uh in getting a very good break, early
playing with stan Getz and I would like to make this point, even though
it's it's kind of a dismal one tom you might, you might not want me to say
this, but I'm gonna say it as far as judging education goes. There's
tremendous advances happening now in the schools and it's an enormous
interest and enthusiasm when a lot of young people who are discovering
jazz and improv prov ization music and they love it and they want to have
it as a career and by the hundreds and thousands they're buying
instruments and and books and literature and enrolling in schools, which
now give degrees and jazz, which is amazing, which has happened in the
last five or 10 years, as far as I know and um, I don't know what these
kids are gonna want to get out of school because they're about, as far as
I know, about 20 jazz gigs now. Jazz gigs for heavy leaders, art, Blakey
stan getz uh, Miles going to play something rounds. I mean Horace silver
and not from any more of what I just mentioned, there are a lot of other
gigs that are related to that. Uh, not, not even one of the girls to a
school wants to be a jail solos of, in a virtuoso virtuoso setting.
There's been a big dance, but how many big bands are there out there
making a movie? It's very similar, very similar to what's going on in the
classical world. It has gone on for years. There are millions of students
enrolled in academic institutions like Julia at the Manhattan School of
Music and they all have hopes of having concert careers and we know that,
uh, there's only room for three or four. It, it's much harder, much matter.
And the orchestra is trying to get into a major orchestra, the United
States, it's easy to become president. You know what I'm saying? So it's,
it's very clean. What happens is there's a lot of teaching happening, but
on, on the, on the brightest side of it, excuse me, I know on the bright
side of it, I feel that even if even if these kids that come out of school
and they want to, they want to have a career as a jazz musician. And if
they can't, I still think it's it's incredible because if nothing other
than that, be a more sophisticated and educated record buying public who
can turn on thousands of people in an educated listener. You know that to
be, you know, that we're building a giant audience. That's really the to
me, the rational way of looking at jay's education now, which in the end
will help the musicians
as far as survival goes. I'm also lucky to have gotten in on ECM records
when they first started, I did a trio record called E. N. In 1974. I did
some recording the day if we're looking out for him. Even before that, a
solo piano record released last year, uh, the animals had an amazing,
amazing rise and it's really a very hopeful uh, signal to me because he is
an example of a total quality, no compromise. Record company producing
records without the thought of cost, uh, doing whatever the artist wants
presented uh, in such a way as as good as a major record company. And
sometimes better quality pressings, amazing covers like real, real
laminated carbon in the congress. You know, you take the record out and it
doesn't fall apart and uh paying very good money, suddenly she became
amazingly popular. I mean the head of the company Manfred I hurt. I had no
idea. I didn't expect that. Probably didn't even want it to be so big. Now
recently there have distribution by one place in the United States which
has a multimillion dollar machine for advertising and promotion. So it's
kind of like a dream where you have quality music presented with rock and
roll bed. It's amazing. And the truth is that because the company line
sells well I'm lucky enough to be included in that. And mm I get a check
in the mail every five or six months for for royalties. Now that's really
one of the only ways that I that I own money you got on the road. You
don't make that much money with this idea because most of it is eaten up
with expenses and and such like that.
The way I make money is I get a check in the mail that way from royalties
and publishing and stuff like that. That allows me a certain freedom in
new york where I don't have to do certain jobs unless I want to. But this
is only in the last three years up until three years ago I was still
having to do things you know. So I think that is a really good sign. And
also E. C. M. Being the biggest of the small companies there are a lot of
other companies now that are enjoying popular like inner city in Black
Lion and a whole bunch of small companies that are selling records. You
know it seems to be an interest in the underground. Now sometimes you have
records that I reviewed and uh brought in preference to the bigger
companies just because they're under that it's kind of a reverse
snobbishness that sometimes the pain in the gas. But look you have small
artists that are able to work you know?
So I think that uh again is a cross section of kind of work that you have
to do in new york. As far as education goes, I taught privately for about
five or six years, I derived a lot of income from that rather than working
some kind of bars, you know? And I found that was very rewarding but also
amazingly draining because at the level that I taught at which was pretty
advanced level,
someone comes to a young guy and it's his whole life. He wants to be a
jazz musician, basically wants to be new and it gets very personal really
quick and he starts telling about his own lady and he wants to move out
and doesn't have the money and next thing you know he's lying down on the
couch and your shrink.
And I was always wondering after one lesson we start tired the kid would
look out what I'm saying, the kid would walk out and you would be in the
clouds and I go points out.
Mhm. 15. Yeah. Right. 1000%. Right. So I gave up private teaching and I I
said I got to put that information Subway because then I start against
amazing gate like I have this information, I'm not giving it out, you know
my holding it or what. So we're going to writing books and then we're
going to do in clinics so you could like reach 3, 400 people that weren't
shot. You know, we're going as a matter of fact, we're gonna be doing two
clinics on monday. Uh wanted tom school LLC and what it makes a college,
you know, that's why I enjoy teaching them in large situations. You know,
some of you right have private, you also teach in the university. Do you
have any reaction? I agree with which it I
have to say that now. Honestly it's really draining. I'm pretty sure that
my private teaching is going to really get very limited very shortly. Uh
every extended myself about two years ago when I accepted uh situation
that workers, I thought I could do it and continue my plane and continue
with everything that I was doing. Uh if I had everything worked out, like
I thought I could do it. I found I couldn't do that. It just doesn't work.
Uh students need attention that they do. They really needed something
that the people are coming to you for something that they don't know
anything about, that you're supposed to be a professional and and they
were telling you, I mean just like he said, the guys talk about moving on
from his own later and his melodies treatment wrong. It's like he says,
man started to go out truth, you find himself standing by listening to the
guys lifestyle and then he leaves, he's hopping, we're about dead, you
know. So I have to admit to also I do enjoy Richard, I enjoy dealing with
young people and teaching situations. These are what I said lim but I'm
gonna just probably teach a few people that I think I probably will be
doing some teaching and sometimes capacity in terms of the club situation
myself personal. I don't like clothes, I love to play with me, but I hate
the club. I love playing with that. God, I like trying to buy very much,
you know, the bands out and I found the metaphors and Shakespeare
Shakespeare public theater, that's the only two places in the yet. But I
found myself but I really comfortable and you know, I haven't been to that
place.
Yeah.
Uh huh I really Jeremiah Kells, I love Mckellen's Mckellen's gives me a
chance to really stretch out because all walks of people come in the cals
, you have musicians, non musicians, you have record levels, you have
musician levels, you have every kind a person to come into Mchale's that
come in here strictly for the music no matter how much drinking, how much
talking did they do when you really got something to say they are actually
listening. They love what you're doing and council common investment we're
all about because without that we are nothing. We are really nothing that
aren't you coming out to enjoy us to listen to what we have to say. And
with those applause, we can move mountains, we can move anything, anybody
anyplace anywhere in the world, but just play No applause
Thank you. Yeah, I
hope it will be very, very fortunate that for me, clubs is a very, very
big and vital thing for me now. I don't make any money in clubs, but I've
been fortunate enough to make a few dollars on the other end. Make I
happen to be lucky enough to, to make some records carried
on a few records. And I'm fortunate enough now to be able to produce a few.
And it's worked out fine for me now. And the concerts basically, it's
where musicians make money. That's about the only place that you really
can make money unless you become the artist. Uh, with Andrew realities, if
you get a hit market, otherwise you've got to go in the studio and play in
the studio in order to survive and out of it's almost, I think it's about
60 million, 60,000 musicians in the, in the local radio too. There's
roughly about 1000 who actually make records and there's about 300 who
make records every week.
Well, it's not too high. So we are fortunate enough to say that for the
guys that are up here
help make us what we are today. You gave us that chance and opportunity
revenue. But the records, whether you came to the concerts where we are
that you gave us the room to move around and we are only trying to repay
you. For instance, just coming here to Arcosanti is a treat for us to give
to you something that you have given to us.
I never I enjoy it and for me it's gonna be a pleasure to be the house
drummer. Yeah, dr Santee along with free weights. He ain't getting paid
for that evening, but it's a pleasure for us to bring here. Where were you
volunteered? But back about this club situation though. Uh he spoke about
Macao's, I worked in the past several times myself with my own group and
uh the class is located uptown Manhattan, 97th street and columbus Avenue.
Now amazon harmon. Now the idea that the class, the reason why I will
welcome because either I did seven. I do still say that I did not like
clubs, the people that all of the club. This uh mike and todd mike and Pat
, very nice people. Although I knew my preferences are I like to play a
club maybe for a room. But when I said I didn't want to play a club. I
don't feel like going across country on a club to anymore. Richard. That's
what I don't think you want to go, I don't want to go out for a new
country, which we've all done. It can be in California two months later
and 50 clubs later. You know, there's a group of, well, you can't use that.
What I have now is I like to do a crab noble ones within a week and then
do some concerts and some luxury demonstrations and some other things that
I also in jail solo concerts in situations like that. Uh, right now, I
don't think a club is really hard, could hire so little drummer
necessarily. Well, that's basically everything to do. It still comes down
to dollars and cents is that we can't make money in clubs, but you have to
get your thing off movement there. But David to experience that you
acquire the club is very important. I have to admit jazz has grand, I
declared atmosphere itself. So the musician, the loose matches you
acquired through those three or four sets a night. Let's face it. If
you're not professionally, we left any instrument of concept can really do
you down. You gotta be ready. The club is a good thing to get together to
learn to pace yourself to learn the things that you're gonna do on that 45
minute concept. Uh, so I think it was important factor in john jazz
musician to do to play the club personally. I think I just don't have
enough of every 99 club situations,
you know, the concerts, the clinics, their informative students are closer
to their, got a chance to really understand that you are definitely anyone
and you breathe and you just like they do and that they can possibly do
what you're doing. It's not something that's a wearable, that sort and it
gives me a bit of a better chance to be here with myself. Sometimes the
court atmosphere has a tendency to put you a little uptight.
Yeah, I think, you know, uh, just, uh, most many fertilized this. Uh, I
think that the club situation, which was the predominant source of the
music for most of the time attributed to the short life span of a lot of
jazz musicians. And uh, I think it's directly, we made it, uh, to that
environment, uh, psychologically and probably physically. So we don't
really want to do that because we've learned a little from them.
Don't you think it's, um, it's a little bit like the, the actor that wants
to be on the broadway stage. You can start making movies. Uh huh. But I
like the university for again, I'm talking from my own little small world
is, it's a selfish motive. Uh, I haven't had to play a note of bullshit in
15 years, huh. I mean it as winners as others. But the university
situation is a dream world situation. And if it's used properly and if we
lay the right kind of music on the folks that can be a bastion of art.
Nevertheless, I am speaking personally says, well, diversified
environments and lives, uh, I just moved out here and I missed the hell
out of playing in clubs.
The still missing the recital hall gets to after a long I want to, I want
to get loaded And I think we're talking about the main thing that seems to
come out is that we all need diversification within our own musical lives.
Nobody just wants to play all concerts. Nobody just wants to teach.
Nobody just wants to play clubs. You know, I think the change is important.
I think that's true for any artist, whether it's a painter or dancer or
uh, you know, even a critic doesn't want to give you the same kind of
wreckage right there. I mean, you get tired of that stuff after. Well,
right. So the point is that we would go from, from one related field to
another related field, kinetic gives you a, a different view of the
situation after I do three or four concerts. I do want to play in a club.
On the other hand, it's also a nice situation. And I think it's unique to
this music. I can attest to that about Miles. Working with Miles. We'll
have to two years, I worked with him, we play mostly concerts who's, uh,
concentrated tours across, you know, big broad world out giant holes. But
we did play two clubs constantly and I was playing more investing and the
keystone in san Francisco, we would play three sets and it was the best
playing that I would get Miles do or he abandoned. I have to say, well I
go along with the program with everybody there when it came down to
concerts, I was with Aretha Franklin and the greatest thrill in the world.
Oh, when we're finished at 11 o'clock, the concert, half the band with
doing her club that evening playing along with the router. If somebody got
lucky where after club was large enough to be wound up. She end up sitting
down playing the piano with the local guys around the town, which was a
big thing for her and everybody else. But we are basically really feel the
same when it comes down to variety as one was said. But we know that we
need clubs to get close to you. That's really good. But the only way that
we can really get close to you to talk with you to have you two ft in
front of us to look us in the face cause is out tell us if you like us and
if you don't play your song, you have a chance to say what you want to say.
It's on your mind. I mean whether we accept it or not, there's something
different, but you have the chance and the opportunity to make us get our
thing off and I think that's basically what everything burns down to in
the long run. We need you as well as your meeting us to do our thing and
we end up doing our thing together. Could I ask a question I would like to
know just I'll be a trailer out there, what do you think about that
situation? How do how do you like to sit down, what's your favorite spot
to listen to music, concert, club, whatever.
Mhm
But it was,
I had everybody here that he said he liked the club situation, he felt
that he had a better relationship with his art with laddies.
Say that again?
Mhm Mhm
Just to get to some music Uh huh. Right Yes dear.
Mhm
Well,
well I agree with you there because a lot of things are happening, the
fear is becoming a big club for us. A lot of promoters buying theaters
where they can actually bring in a name artist can't afford to pay him
make a profit and let the people enjoy and get closer almost as close as
you are would be in a club situation by being in the theater without being
just in a big concert halls but coming into the theater where the actual
seats of their clothes as you would go to watch the movies, so we find now
that we're doing a lot more theaters that were uh concerts out bears and
Carnegie hall in the the big big theaters in the Mhm. Mhm. In the cities,
the major cities. So I think the theater is helping get the art is closer
to the public. Yeah, I just want to make one point. I think that we're
forgetting one thing when we talk about concerts versus close, we're
talking about a wide diversification of music. When we say jazz, there's a
lot of different kinds of music at this table. You know, like if we talk
about bebop B but I mean I worked with stan Getz for a year and stan hated
concerts because he was brought up in the clubs, he felt really
comfortable in the club, he could skate, he could go to the bar, he could
come back while the rhythm section played, he could look around, you know
, he felt real good in the club and we do a concert and he always played
well, but he didn't feel as relaxed and miles even said once I went
someplace and if he says how you gonna feel relaxed at a jazz concert, you
know, a jazz concert. But then I'm a pianist and like last night duet we
played together here mean Dave, I really need quiet for me to get over, I
can get over in a noisy club. But if it's quiet, it gives me a blank
canvas. It gives me a range of dynamics that are not available in most
clubs because the competition with waitresses trying to hustle drinks with
people eating food. If you're sitting there and you have a drink in front
of you, it's really weird not to talk to somebody, so you're going to talk
to people, talk for people talk, that's it. They blow you to. So for the
kind of music that I like to play concerts are better. But then again, I
worked with Dave in, in february, in a quintet situation with randy
brecker al Foster in the village Vanguard who played for a weekend. It was
magic because people come to the vanguard and be quiet because it's been
there for 40 years. So they come and they're quiet, that's respect. But
and Bernard Mattel's is a whole other situation. Michaels is a party.
Michaels is not, you know that music, you know, you go there to have a
party, you really do you know what I'm saying? You're high. Right? So I
think we got a really, even though there's a club, it's a club, still a
club. Doesn't matter how we look at it. But it's a it's a club where
people basically come out to listen to the music
really do come out to listen. So,
well, a lot of people come on, can be seen, okay, I agree right now, what
we're talking about with mattel's, but I'm just saying, I have to go with
, which is something that weighs well, it's a party. I mean, those people
be so loud sometimes in there. That I mean, you can hear the more people
than you can hear music. And I'm talking about the band is wide open. But
the thing with me, we'll do downstairs man. Part of the music. I tell you
, I think the party is part of that music. Yes, it is. I believe
definitely not talking and drinking and hanging. You don't want to play.
You don't want to play in a dead quiet hall that well, I bring with you.
But the biggest thing for me is that half the time I do not hear the
people when I get involved with the guys in the band and if that man were
on stage sure I see the people but I really don't hear because I
concentrate and put my counsel and my thoughts into the music. And once we
get off, if the band gets off on each other and we've done what's
necessary to get our thing off to the people because then the people began
to come and get into you. But as long as we are into ourselves and we play
, I mean we really play and excuse me, kick ass's they appreciate it. And
they show it. And that happens to be a big thing. And I think that
basically we have to do that, we were on concerts for the big holes, We
have to get into ourselves before we have to we cannot worry about what is
out there and don't get me wrong, we love you. We love you. We definitely
have to get into ourselves in order for you to get into us because we know
that you are looking and watching and waiting for us to make a mistake so
you can talk about it. And I can't blame me because I go myself to see the
same. That's funny. But I go along with that because the band that plays
curses a lot, like when we work opposite friends and said wake up during
the classroom massachusetts remember now that was a band, not only did
concerts from the very beginning, almost because of the sound solo. And
those guys that because that's the stage, $10,000. Like it was a club, you
see. So it's relative because if you're playing concerts all the time, I'm
sure the retail after, Well, it's 10,000, 20,010, 100 it's still like
you're gonna, you're gonna get into that culture. It kind of has to do
with the artist. But we're in jazz, I think particularly in jazz and in
the kind of music, you know, the difference what rich is talking about
when I play. It's, uh, the situations are vastly different. I mean, to do
that, but we played last night, they said we have to do with playing
in this environment, maybe a couple 100 people and that really would be
pretty good attention. Wanted to do the music, we go on sunday. So know
that your students, there's a level of, you know, you go then. Um, yeah, I
mean, you know what the problem is that you're going to have to have like
89,000 people by that time, maybe by the end. Uh, I mean the majority of
people have heard of which you and I several, several images just as well.
This is going to be very small. And I think that's a great thing that
boosts the clear maybe did to mix it up like that. I think that's great.
We have a description of musicians for the first nine at the time. For
instance, in our set, we're going to have a different kind of set because
of the distance and amount of people it's over. But just because the
attention span, you will probably be different based on the experience of
such a kind of event. What are we going to be good? That's it. I can't
help but be good. Let me ask you. Let me ask you general. I've heard, I've
heard this idea when I've heard uh, remain nameless. But I've heard some
musicians say they prefer the recording studio because everything is
perfect there. What is the reaction? You don't want, you don't want to,
you want some resistance. No saying you want resistance. Sometimes you
want we need resistance. I mean that was perfect. The pearl comes from an
abrasion on the middle of the oyster. You know what I'm saying. There's no
pearl without that, that, that sand in there, you know, so a diamond comes
from pressure corny. But uh, I like, I particularly like pressure
situations because it wakes me up because I've been playing the piano
since I'm about five years old and I've played most, most of the kind of
places that you can play. And I tell you the two of you, I go to sleep
unless there's something on it. You know, I'm not saying it's nice to play
when you're sick or your, your leg is broken, although that's happened
plenty of times. I was in India, well, Dave and I got a little amoeba, you
know, and uh, we played a lot of concerts and there were a lot of bass on
, there was instead of piano selves, there's a lot of like quick exits,
you know what I'm saying? So and that was at the time I didn't like it,
but it taught me something, you know, to show must go on really some
vaudeville, you know, it's talking about forever. So I particularly do not
like perfect situations, you know, like when you get out of this, you know
, here's the magnificent Steinway and there's a great sound system and
there's a drunken lady in the front that's cursing and asking you to play
a song, you know that it makes it makes it special. It puts a one time
thing on it, you know, I don't like that plastic environment, you know,
I could never be a studio musician. I would be shot. Yeah, I agree. That
that situation perfect. I don't think the studio apartment first. I know a
lot of people call it perfect. But it really isn't, it's controlled
control contrived,
you know? But myself, I think the challenge of an audience, is it the
surprise is that you can get out of an audience, you never know what the
noise is gonna like as many people that are out there, as many different
preferences of what they would like to hear. And artists really up on the
spot to please our open those people up to something new or whatever. The
surprise that excites me. I like that myself. I can sometimes even go to
the point of creating surprise myself. Well, I think that yeah, go ahead.
I love I love it, love it. We love it. That's really the thing for us to
really have a particular look when when he done, when we've done it solo
and you like to sell applaud no matter even if you do it by yourself or
flawed. Mhm Because we then we know that you're into us, You're into what
is happening what is going on. We need it. Sure we understand that when
you get to the end, you'll give a big vega pub. But that one in the middle
is another thing how mercy Uh huh mm hmm. Mhm. Any other questions? We'll
take the last 10 minutes of this for questions
ahead.
Going into?
Yes, we feel the pressure from the producer. The man who's putting out the
money. Our problem is is that when we get into those kind of situations
and everybody up here, unless you are the man is in charge, we have to go
along with the program. Yeah. Actually toiled basically
what they want. Now the artist, half the time we don't have anything to
say if the producer happens to be a head Albert, mm please, you know, I
mean, let's face it, you actually have gone across and it becomes to them
commercialized record that they want to program you. It's like anything
else. You end up getting program after a certain period of time where
their field is that the masses of what they would be able to sell to make
money. Now, he's in the business to make money. So we have to go along
with what the masses, not what individuals are basically going to like. So
we were basically told what what we have to play now because we are
fortunate enough to be virtual two players, Everybody up here, we still
get a chance to put a little bit of us in it. Now for me it's it's a great
thing because I know but I can turn myself off, I can turn on and turn off
just like you turn the record player on and off what I'm called to do a
job and it basically needs to keep my mouth shut because if it came down
to I had to do if I go out to do a job, if I don't like it. And at one
time I said for almost 10 years I was almost I was blacklisted and
blackballed from the music industry because I had a big mouth, but
everything I seem to say,
so long as I kept making things work and kept things happening, people
would call me. But the minute that something it looked like it wasn't
going to happen and they didn't sell any records and they didn't do this
and they didn't do that and didn't make any money. Uh well don't call
petty because he talks to that much. But I was fortunate man that the
things that I said worked, I tried to be as creative as possible without
getting in the way and affecting the position and making a producer looks
small. But in the beginning I was wrong. I was just loud. I just had a big
mouth and I wanted to say what I had to say whether the guy called me back
enough, I don't care. But now I've learned how to control it. I've learned
how to shut up once in a while.
It's I had a problem. You answer? All right, Well actually this is uh yeah
, for Aaron Brenner's case and he happens to be a great catalyst and
actually data pool areas, it was his record too hard and just you know, it
was like you could tell that I was there. It was to catalyze the rhythm
section and get the flu that happened and so forth. And that's what he's
known for and that's what he does. I think that the situation of
compromise that we're referring to, whether it be guarded by anybody,
first of all is very personal to each artist. Uh we'd have to ask each
artist if he feels he's compromising. First of all. Second of um certain
artists uh you know have set themselves and have done that as strongly as
the kind of artist who set themselves the opposite way. Talk about being a
very aesthetic, you know, um Purest kind of approach. I mean there are
guys who have to see that career as stronger as somebody who's just
pursuing standing on their head or play four instruments with one hand,
you know, metal is the range of characteristics that makes you public
makes you seem that makes you noticeable. But I think that it really comes
down to each artist and actually you is missing is uh you know, it's up to
you of kind of formulate an opinion based on when you hear the man's music
and this is such a great change in the maybe a record or two I guess it's
obvious to think that there was pressure put on. But you cannot always be
sure that I know I had that situation one of my records what I did and got
a lot of flak for that from critics, different people. So it would be a
self out notice God. But you know, and actually I really wanted to do that
and I have had about my mind for years. You know what? I would talk to
somebody by like a trace the music revolution. I give reasons for you and
so forth. But the point is that I think that his listeners should be, you
know, in general, the critics and listeners are kind of left are musicians
who makes up the little different than what they're known for because you
actually lighten up sometimes and make the artist had the freedom for a
while because then he can probably move maneuver in a different way.
Especially Cincinnati's career is not based on one or two or three
records. Hopefully it's based on you shouldn't get up. Maybe you look at
the man's out out. Let me say this is what he's done and have two covers.
A lot of runs to me. That's that's a kind of a thank you. That's very,
very hard. Yes, sir.
Mm hmm. Mhm Yeah.
Mhm Uh huh.
Mhm.
Mhm All right.
Uh
are you okay? Uh huh.
Mhm. Mhm.
Do you feel as though that's well going, mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So well,
mm Well, I mean, I don't want to use poor chickens and it's happening.
Yeah. Is a great musician. Um I think that uh I think that was happening
that is that there has been a move in the last years to have more composed
music. Just it just happens to be happening in jazz or whatever you wanna
call. And that's kind of one of the fusions that we're talking about the
trail of written music playing the part at a certain time in on the record
of this in the music. And then we have a 16 bars that provides and then a
whole page of music orderliness in line or something like that has become
uh it's actually it's what now what is called an innovation but it's not
in a significant characteristics of the music in the seventies. And it
said might say that's in the light check. We're trying the Brooklyn's
great first week uh unless some of the people who made that happen like
that. And I think it's a very valid form of, you know, include
improvisation. But I think it has a place in the music. Obviously you want
to miss the flavor of proposition will check for instance on this tour
that I did. There was quite a lot with map but there was always at least
one or two stretched out saying it's not a 20 minute cellos. I'm not
saying that they were the main event of the evening but there is a pretty
good balance and at least in his case of written and it there's music in
the case of the ground like that if you France is so great. You know, you
can advise, he can say as much as 8000. Some people that say in 18 minutes
and we're not really going to miss it. It's the guys that they recognize
that well to look at it as a listener, but we think that a little too much
composition really, because it's the quality of the conversation is really
high badly that it may not take up that much time read. And also, I think
also that
on you, the public as opposed to something that's her at five or six new
kinds of arrangements. Don't That that's the way any particular item is
going, that that's changing the whole style of what you call jazz, because
you've heard several arranged compositions. I think there was absolutely
right. Anybody deserves the right to try things. I think train and
everybody was experimental and things that they did. And uh, things that
you're talking about now are still experimental things chick did it and
other people, uh I've been involved in something like that. So, it also,
but that's not the trend of the music is going in that direction is just
another thing to do. I think you should be accepted that way. It's not
that anything is going to take over anything. It's just something else to
do with the music. I mean it has a large thing to draft from withdrawing
so many areas, so many different things, different ways to approach this
music. That's just another way with some, with some jazz musicians today,
especially the ones who have crossed over into a larger audience, whatever
you wanna call it. They use jazz as a texture rather than the basis of the
music. They use latin music as a texture, they use composition as a
texture, they use uh so they use the elements of music to put together a
style rather than just get up there and play all things you offer an hour
and a half, which is totally valid if you can sustain it. You know, there
are very few that can you know, I think that that's what again I talked
about the era of synthesis. Jazz has been around for 75 years now. So that
the fact is that there are a lot of subsections over there, a lot of sub
uhh titles, two different kinds of jazz, you know. And ah there are some
some uh men now that are really interested in just being jazz based aisles
and not totally giving to that one ear. You know, even someone like Herbie
who has done everything possible and he's like always going back and forth.
He's just a creative creative musician, you know, he knows his jazz, he
was his funk, he was his latin music having is Hollywood strings, he
doesn't care who used it all. You know, now I just want to say something
about this because I feel from the audience and I used to feel this way
too when you're listening to a lot of heavy music, when you learn,
especially if you want to be a musician, you listen to the master's is to
train and you listen to miles and bird and you come up on that heaviness,
that weight, that depth, that soul searching thing that you want. And then
you hear your favorite musicians, uh maybe they moved to the west coast
and they certainly put together a different kind of music, more commercial
music, more accessible as more hooks than it is definite musical things
that you can say. Um the first reaction is why did he do that? I mean, why
did you do that? What what that feeling is? You are outraged. You are
personally upset at what your expectations are of that artist. You want
him to continue what he was doing. That's very weird when you think about
it, of course, it's up to him to lay down what he wants to do. Now,
everyone has their own expectations, but if they're not met, that doesn't
mean that he's wrong. It means that you were surprised there are some
people that based their whole careers aren't surprising people do. You
know what I'm saying? So you have to take that with a lot of salt. You
know, you have to get like they say you have to give them a lot of rope.
There are some obvious concessions that are disgusting and that I mean we
can talk about I mean Freddie Hubbard who was really handled badly and his
records were really like they destroyed him and the horrible thing is that
he sold 250 records. Smart producing Freddy and mold. Some genius trumpet
player Freddy went public and millions of interviews saying that he was
unhappy. He was unhappy is unhappy. Finally he his last record is a really
good to me. Jazz record. It's a similar kind of record that used to do on
C. T. I. Even blue note you know so like there's a situation where a major
artist went through a cycle and changed also Herbie came back and changed
chick and Herbie did a duet tour. You know there's a lot of things going
on. So what I'm just saying is don't have expectations for the artist and
if you're outraged check yourself out. Thank you thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. All right. Mhm.
I mean you think we like you. Oh man don't you dare don't we put them in.
My goodness gracious like this. Why
old psychological. That's okay. Oh. Oh that's all right. I don't think
it's such a long sideburns bernard. Huh? Oh
say that again. Okay let me oh say it again. Mhm. Mhm. You play drums. No
wonder I knew you were looking at me for a reason. Go ahead.
Mhm. You're rockaway would I'm a rocket Road, you know? Go ahead
company. Oh yeah. Mhm, mm hmm. Mhm. Okay.
Mhm. Mhm. Well one of the best things in the world and one of the best
examples is right here, I was called rock a vera. I mean, I think cause
public was concerned, I knew nothing but rock and roll. Mhm. Uh why
couldn't it be called a dreamer? That's all. I mean it I don't want to, I
wouldn't even accept not even being called a musician. Just call me a
dreamer. Why do I have to be a rock and roll? I'm a rock n roll call party.
He's the rock and roll drummer. Well I met a lot of money, but the point
was to was to be called a drummer because when I started out playing, I
was playing with the big game at the age of 10, yes, playing a big band,
having a ball, having a good time. Didn't know what the hell I was doing,
but I was having a good time. And as things, moving on, I learned how to
play. You're right. As you say on the spot training, you know, I learned
how to play with other people as time went on. I mean I got to certain
points where it doesn't matter, it still doesn't to me today, it doesn't
matter who I play for now. I had a ball playing Jeff back, I had a ball
playing God Obama yet. I haven't even bigger ball playing teeth. It's
wonderful. We want to have a good time playing with 52 dramas. We love it.
We're not in competition with one another. I'm prettier than he is. So I
don't have to worry, I'm in good shape.
I'm not happy note. I think we will conclude I want to thank all the
panelists. But also I think what was raised here at the end is very
important. We all tend to over label and over define things and jazz which
in some ways is in itself a label. But jazz is a music that is very
diversified and very broad. So resist the temptation to try to pigeonhole
it and define it too narrowly. And give the artist room two search and
find and discover and help you discover things. Jazz is a music of great
generosity of spirit. And I think that our panelists have shown some
reasons why that is so stay tuned to this channel because very shortly
we'll have for you, Anthony Braxton talking to you and with you about his
music. Thank you gentlemen. Thank you.
Yeah. Off to school.
Mhm. Mhm.Okay